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July 12, 2014 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

03:00:00

2744 I Cheat on My Girlfriend - Tuesday Call In Show July 8th, 2014

A couple calls in to discuss the male’s history of cheating and why the female continues to stay in the dysfunctional relationship. A female listener discusses issues with time management and relentlessly asks to be told what to do. Also Includes: enabling a bad behavior, terminator sex, your balls are stupid, sex drives the world, female perfectionism, wasting time to the unemotional and the joy of not knowing what to do.

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	Good evening, everybody.
	Stephen Molyneux from Freedom Aid Radio.
	It's a special Tuesday show because we're doing Peter Schiff.
	On Thursday, Friday, and Stephbot needs his beauty sleep.
	So we're just going to make sure we don't end up showing up at some godforsaken hour to do morning radio.
	And yeah, so thanks everyone so much.
	FDRURL.com slash to donate to help out the show, which is muchly appreciated.
	Dogecoin, Bitcoin, Litecoin, PayPal, Visa, anyway.
	So, Mike, who do we have up first?
	Alright, up next is Dallas, and Dallas' girlfriend is also listening in on the call and can jump in if need be.
	But Dallas wrote in...
	Drop the magic!
	Sorry.
	No, no, not that show.
	Dallas wrote in and said, Stefan, I've continually put myself at risk by having unprotected sex and emotionally hurting women in the process, including a woman I've been dating for three years.
	What is the best way to understand my undeniably risky choices and consequently prevent them from happening in the future?
	Well, that's quite a statement to make.
	I appreciate you bringing that up.
	Are you on the line right now?
	Yes, yes I am.
	How's it going, Steph?
	It's going alright.
	Now, you've been going out with your girlfriend for three years, you said?
	Correct, yes.
	And we weren't technically boyfriend-girlfriend.
	We were broken up for part of it and we were just dating.
	I would be seeing other women during that time.
	Actually, now that we've talked more recently, I did cheat on her also while we were officially boyfriend-girlfriend.
	I guess I've just continually put myself at risk by sleeping with other women, not always telling her, then sleeping with her.
	This last one was pretty bad.
	So, I'm just not sure where to go.
	Does Sarah have a microphone?
	Yes.
	Okay, if you could throw her on for a sec, I'd appreciate that.
	I'm here.
	Hi, Sarah.
	How are you doing?
	Hi.
	I'm good.
	Sarah.
	Sarah, Sarah, Sarah.
	What about this guy...
	Has you even be in the same room?
	Help me understand.
	What about this guy makes you want to continue a relationship with a guy who has unprotected sex with other women, bringing home potentially any host of diseases or getting someone pregnant or whatever?
	What is it about this guy that you feel is worth your time, effort, and energy?
	Well, I guess – His actions don't...
	He doesn't always act the way that he talks to me, so he says things that make me think he's better than he is, but his actions don't show that.
	Okay, so you're not actually answering my question, right?
	Right, the question is, why are you still with a guy...
	Who cheats on you?
	In medically dangerous ways, right?
	Right.
	I don't really know.
	What are your theories?
	Why do you think that's happening?
	Because I think that I loved him.
	Yeah, well, the L word doesn't get you very far in this show, right?
	Because love, at least the way that I view it, and I think it's a good way to view it, is our involuntary response to virtue, right?
	And the way in which Dallas is behaving is not virtuous, right?
	I mean, he's lying, he's cheating, and so on, right?
	So I'm afraid you don't get the L word, which actually doesn't really answer anything anyway, right?
	So why else do you think?
	I mean, am I right in understanding that you would prefer a boyfriend who doesn't cheat on you, right?
	Of course.
	Okay.
	So then the question is, why do you have a boyfriend who cheats on you and then you continue to go out with him?
	Do you feel that you're not attractive to other men?
	No, I don't think that.
	So you think you are attractive to other men?
	Yeah.
	So if you weren't going out with this fellow, then you would be able to get other dates.
	Not much problem, right?
	I believe so, yeah.
	Now, do you think that you would be able to get dates with a man who didn't cheat on you?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So you're choosing a guy who cheats on you over a guy who doesn't cheat on you, even though you want a guy who doesn't cheat on you.
	So the question is, what is he doing that makes up for the fact that he cheats on you?
	Do you mind if I run through a couple of questions?
	Unless you have an answer.
	Go ahead.
	Okay.
	Does he have a lot of money?
	No.
	No.
	Is he very good looking?
	Average.
	Average.
	Is he excellent in bed?
	It's okay.
	I mean, average.
	Okay.
	Is he a fantastic conversationalist?
	Does he really make you think?
	Is he inspiring?
	Is he creative?
	Is he, you know, just tell me out.
	Give me something here.
	I mean, that's a definite to that.
	You know, our conversations are always in-depth and he's always calling me out on things that I, you know, could strive to do better.
	Oh, he corrects you.
	Like, he helps improve you.
	The guy who cheats on you is big on helping you improve?
	In ways that aren't dealing with emotional situations he's caused, yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	All right.
	And can you tell me a little bit about what your relationship with your father was like?
	Or is like, obviously, right?
	He wasn't around a lot, but...
	He was always very nice and he never yelled at me, was always willing to talk, but just not around that much.
	Why wasn't he around that much?
	He was always working.
	Do you know if your father ever had affairs?
	I don't believe so.
	And what does your father think of Dallas?
	I believe he likes them because, you know, he's stated that before, because he thinks he's a good guy and they can have a conversation and enjoy each other's conversation.
	It's not just about how the weather is.
	It's more in depth and knowledgeable and, you know, enjoyable.
	And does your father know that he's cheating on you?
	No.
	And what do you think your father would say if he knew that Dallas was cheating on you?
	You can do better.
	Would he advise you to leave the relationship, do you think?
	I think he'd suggest that, yeah.
	Do you think he'd think it would be a good idea?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Why do you think you haven't told your father about what's going on in your relationship?
	I guess because I'm nervous what he'd say.
	Tell me what you're feeling, if you don't mind.
	I'm slightly embarrassed that I'm still putting up with it.
	I mean, sad that all this has happened, that someone could treat me like this, and I let it happen.
	Well, I mean, it's more than letting it happen, right?
	I mean, you're rewarding it through your continued presence, right?
	Are you guys still having sex?
	We were, and then that stopped.
	And when did it stop?
	Last weekend.
	Was it after you found out about some infidelity?
	I found out, and then we still had sex.
	But then it stopped after that?
	Well, why did it stop last weekend then?
	Well, a friend of his actually sat down and talked to both of us, and It's saying pretty much what you're saying, that why am I allowing, you know, why am I still in this and why am I allowing this to happen?
	Right.
	And what's your relationship like with your mom?
	Right now, not good.
	Why is that?
	She just...
	Yells a lot.
	And we were just recently on vacation and she actually, like, she smacked me in public and I haven't really talked to her since.
	Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry.
	What happened?
	Well, my sister and I were just playing around and enjoying each other's company and, I mean, we weren't hurting each other.
	We were just Fooling around like siblings can do.
	And she just smacked me and said I was being bad.
	And how old are you?
	24.
	24.
	Was your father there for the hitting?
	Yeah.
	And what did he say?
	Really nothing.
	I mean, I was just in shock.
	I just remember staring at both of them and kind of Saying like, wow.
	And I haven't talked to, I actually told them I don't want to talk to them and that I'll, you know, I'll confront them when I'm ready.
	But my dad said that my mom doesn't deserve me not talking to her and they don't really understand why I'm so upset.
	Well, I don't know about that.
	I mean, your dad saw your mom hit you, right?
	Yeah.
	I think, well, yeah, they understand it.
	So they know why you're upset, right?
	They're choosing not to accept that.
	Yeah, that's what I'm upset about.
	When you were a child, how were you disciplined?
	I was spanked.
	Bare bottom.
	And how often did that happen, Sarah?
	I don't remember exactly, but enough.
	Maybe like...
	Just roughly.
	I mean, once a week, once a month, daily?
	No.
	I mean, I'd say like maybe once a month.
	Okay.
	So you were spanked by your mother or by your father?
	Only my mom.
	Only your mom.
	Okay.
	And you were spanked like pants down bare bottoms?
	Yeah.
	And I assume obviously that hurt like hell, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And your father approved of this?
	He thought this was the right approach?
	I'm not exactly sure.
	The last I remember it, I don't think he liked it, but he allowed it to happen.
	What do you mean you don't think he liked it?
	I don't.
	The way that he acted towards my mom, when it would happen, I don't think...
	He liked it because even when she just yells at us, kids still, he gets upset with her.
	He'll try and talk to her about it, about not yelling, but it's never changed.
	But he didn't disagree with her.
	Did he disagree with her hitting you on vacation recently?
	I'm not really sure.
	But he didn't do anything at the time, right?
	No.
	And does your mother, you said she was yelling at you as well recently on vacation, did that happen as well when you were a kid?
	Oh yeah, a lot.
	It was more my brother she yelled at, but I was still affected by it.
	Right.
	And did your parents yell at each other as well?
	My mom yelled at my dad, but my dad didn't yell at her.
	So your mom is yelly and hitty, right?
	Right.
	And how often would you get yelled at when you were a child?
	Every day.
	Every day?
	Yeah.
	And how often would your brother get spanked?
	Maybe like twice a month.
	And sorry, I just lost my train of thought for a moment.
	Let me just see if I can recover it.
	Did your father work for – you said he was gone for work a lot.
	Did he travel, or was he just at his place of work a lot?
	A little bit of both.
	He'd go on, like, you know, a couple day trip once a month, so maybe, like, or Day trips, like, I don't know, a bunch.
	Like, stay overnight one night, and that happened, like, probably two or three times a month.
	But on top of being at work a lot.
	So, like, for example, he was, like, he was never really at, like, my sporting events.
	He was always with, like, my brother at hockey or something.
	So it was always my mom there.
	And I didn't feel like I had that good of a relationship with her.
	Like, she would yell at me, like I played soccer, and she would yell at me from the sidelines.
	And I've tried, I tried telling her as, I don't know, I was probably 13 years old, and I'm like, Mom, you know, the way that you yell at me.
	Yeah, not helpful.
	Yeah, that it's not helpful.
	It just, it just pissed me off.
	So, but she never understood, she didn't ever change that.
	And Sarah, would you say your mom is smart, average intelligence, or less?
	I'd say average.
	Alright.
	And when did the spanking stop?
	I was probably like 12 or 13 maybe.
	And do you know why it stopped?
	I'm not sure.
	Maybe I just learned not to do things that upset her enough to do that.
	I'm not really sure.
	Well, no.
	I mean, that's not the case.
	Spanking doesn't actually alter the behavior that parents want altered.
	Otherwise, they wouldn't need to keep doing it, right?
	Yeah.
	You know, like if I have an infection and I take an antibiotic and I'm still taking the antibiotic 12 years later, then whatever I'm doing has not cured my ailment, right?
	Yeah.
	So, parents keep spanking because spanking doesn't work.
	So, I can tell you, if you like, why it stopped when you were that age, and that's just because you got bigger.
	Yeah.
	It's a little tough to spank someone who's almost your size, right?
	Right.
	My brother had made that comment that, actually on vacation, that my mom stopped hitting him when he hit her back.
	And I had no idea.
	I just heard that for the first time a few weeks ago.
	Right.
	And I was shocked by that.
	I mean...
	What were you shocked about?
	I guess that I felt like, because I had been hit already in the vacation, so I had felt that because I'm the smallest in my family by a few inches, I felt like I was the one to yell at or hit Now, even now, because I'm the smallest and they know that I would never lay a hand on them.
	So I felt like they were just putting me...
	They just knew I wouldn't do anything, but my other siblings would.
	So your mom's kind of a bully, right?
	Picks on kids, people smaller than herself, and backs off when those kids get big enough to hit back, right?
	Right.
	Which is pretty gross, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, she doesn't have any principles.
	She just likes...
	Hitting people who are smaller than her, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So, obviously since your dad wasn't around very much, then you basically were mostly raised by your mom, is that fair to say?
	Yeah, she was a stay-at-home mom, right.
	Right.
	Now, can you think of a time, and I appreciate your answers, I hope it's helpful, but...
	Can you think of a time when you were a kid, Sarah, where you were allowed to peacefully disagree with your mom about something relatively important?
	No, not at all.
	Okay.
	Can you think of a time when you were allowed to peacefully disagree with your mom about something pretty unimportant?
	Yeah, like what to eat for dinner.
	Right.
	But whenever things got fairly important, you weren't allowed to disagree with her.
	Otherwise, she would, what, escalate, yell, scream, and then maybe hit, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	Well, that's why you're with Dallas.
	The reason why you're with Dallas, in my opinion, Sarah, is because you got – The strength of character knocked out of you as a child.
	Children are born very strong-willed, in my experience.
	They're born independent thinkers, and they have no problems at all contradicting their parents.
	Like, let me give you a tiny example, right?
	I introduced my daughter to the song Friends of Mr.
	Cairo by John Evangelos, which is a fun song.
	And there's a bit in the middle that she really likes to dance to.
	So today, she was telling me, we were dancing to the song together, and she was saying, now, Dad, I need you to watch what I'm doing and dance the way that I do so you learn how to dance better.
	And she said, I'll go slow so you can do it right.
	Right now, I mean, I can know some parents, like, you don't think I'm going to dance?
	It's great.
	So she taught me her dance moves, and we danced to the song, and, you know, I'm happy to comply.
	You know, she had some cool moves, and it was fun, and so on.
	Now, you know, could have been a fight, right?
	Some parents, some households, maybe it would have been, right?
	Yeah.
	But she is very independent of my thinking.
	She certainly is happy to listen, but I don't ever get to tell her what to do.
	I always have to make the case.
	And it's her judgment as to whether the case has been made sufficiently or not.
	I feel like a supplicant to the queen at times.
	Your majesty, I feel it would be good for the kingdom if we pursued this policy.
	I recognize that you have the final seat of authority.
	You have the crown and the scepter.
	But as your trusted grand vizier and your advisor, I think it would be wonderful if we pursued X or Y or Z course of action.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	And so this was not...
	Your experience as a child, right?
	No.
	I mean, you basically just had to do what your mom wanted, for the most part, or suffer some pretty horrible consequences, right?
	Yeah.
	And so, when you're in a situation of conflict, the first thing that you fundamentally do...
	Is look to the other person.
	What do they need?
	What do they want?
	Right?
	What's important to them?
	What works for them?
	Because otherwise, you've been trained that if you have your own thoughts and opinions and if they conflict with someone, then you're going to get your ass whipped, right?
	Yeah.
	So when I first asked you what was so special about Dallas...
	To you, you started talking about him and the promises he was making that maybe he was not doing what he...
	I was asking you what was special to you about him, but you started talking about him right away, right?
	Yeah.
	So, for you, I would guess...
	Asserting your own needs in opposition to someone else's needs is probably really scary.
	Yeah.
	Does it make any sense what I'm saying?
	Yeah.
	I'm not trying to tell you your own experience.
	I'm just saying that if you've been bullied and dominated and hit and yelled at for, I guess...
	Close on a quarter century now, and you don't even know what happened when you were a baby, then it is going to be, I would argue, almost impossible for you to be able to confidently assert your own needs in a relationship because you got beaten down and had to conform to a bully for so long.
	It's like you were in the army for 24 years and all you could do was don't think, obey orders.
	Don't think, obey orders.
	And then someone comes along and says, now think for yourself and disobey orders.
	I mean you're going to kind of freak out, right?
	Yeah.
	So, if we can just imagine for a moment, Sarah, that there will be no negative consequences.
	No yelling, no hitting, no upset, no anger, no negative consequences for you being truly honest about your experience of what's happened with Dallas.
	if you could just speak your truth like on a mountaintop with no one around, what would you say about what's going on for you at the moment?
	That I've continuously given in to someone that said they're going to change and taking them back too quickly without figuring out the core of why that thing happened.
	which just let it happen again and just like how disgusting it is for someone to not tell me and then come to my house and act like nothing happened two days later and sleep with me I mean, that's horrible.
	Right.
	When you say get to the core of why it happened, what do you mean?
	Well, for him to figure out why he's doing that, it has nothing to do with me.
	But I didn't step back and...
	I'm sorry, what do you mean you say it has nothing to do with you?
	Well, I believe that he has some kind of addiction to just being able to sleep with whoever he can.
	All right.
	Let's say that's true.
	Let's say that's true.
	Why does that have nothing to do with you?
	I'm not saying you're at fault, like you're making him do it or, you know, boy, if you'd only do X, Y, or Z in the bedroom, then everything would be okay.
	I'm not trying to make you responsible, but he's in your bed.
	He's in your life.
	What do you mean when you say it doesn't have anything to do with you?
	Well, I just think that the reason why he's doing it isn't because of something I've done.
	No, it is.
	It is.
	I guarantee you that.
	That I will tell you for sure.
	And again, I'm not blaming you.
	I'm not saying it's your fault.
	But he's absolutely doing it because of something you've done.
	Sarah, have you ever known anyone who's like a real drinker?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So let's say I'm married to a woman.
	She's a real drinker, right?
	She just bottle and a half of wine every night, three on the weekends, right?
	And what I do is I carry her upstairs over my shoulder.
	I put her to bed.
	I try to brush her teeth.
	I hold her head back while she throws up.
	I call in sick for her when she can't get to work, right?
	I cover for her.
	I go out and I buy...
	Her booze for her, right?
	Right.
	And then I say, well, she has an addiction.
	It has nothing to do with me.
	Am I correct?
	No.
	Why?
	Because you're enabling her.
	Exactly!
	So when you say he has an addiction, yeah, maybe he does.
	But when you say that has nothing to do with you, you're not correct.
	And that's a statement that comes from powerlessness.
	But you do have power in the situation, right?
	You reward him with sex, you reward him with your presence, you reward him with a relationship, with your thoughts, with your mind, with your heart, with your future.
	You know, with, I don't know if you want to become a mom or not, but with your precious youthful fertility and your fresh eggs that are hopefully going to waste at the moment every month.
	But the idea that you don't have anything to do with his addiction is absolutely wrong.
	And I say this not to make you feel bad, but don't you feel kind of helpless at the moment?
	No.
	Yeah.
	Now, helplessness is something that you're trained for by your mom, right?
	Because you were helpless with your mother, right?
	Yeah.
	And I'm sorry to say this, but your father is a coward.
	There is no one alive in this world who would hit my daughter without repercussions.
	And I would not go to my daughter and say, well, it's up to you to be friends with the person who hit you, and I can't imagine why you're so upset.
	There is no one alive who would hit my daughter without Without some significant repercussions.
	There's no one who would pull down my daughter's pants and spank her on her bare ass.
	I mean, it's just, it would, right?
	Yeah.
	Your dad is not standing up for you, so he's helpless.
	Your mom is a bully.
	That makes you helpless, right?
	And now you're around someone who's indulging their own passions at your expense, just as your mother did, right?
	Your mother indulged her own bad temper and tendency to bullying at your expense, right?
	Yeah.
	And now you have someone else who's indulging his own passions at your expense, and guess what?
	Just like you were with your mom, you're helpless.
	Now, with your mom, You weren't enabling because you weren't there by choice.
	You're just born into this household, right?
	Yes.
	So with your mom, you're right in saying, well, she's got her own shit.
	It's got nothing to do with me.
	Yeah, I agree with that because she was your mom and you weren't there by choice.
	This is different though, right?
	Yeah.
	And so his addiction has everything to do with you because his addiction is in your life and affecting your life with your encouragement and support.
	I know that sounds weird because emotionally it must be hell going through what you're going through at the moment, right?
	I mean, it's like everything's falling apart.
	Your boyfriend's cheating on you.
	Your mom is hitting you.
	Your dad is blaming you.
	I mean...
	It's a monstrous hell.
	And this is what happens when we stay passive, right?
	When we allow the passivity that was inflicted upon us as children to continue on and on and on, right?
	Yes.
	I mean, do you have the life that you want at the moment?
	Not exactly, no.
	Oh, please don't give me half-truth.
	What do you mean, not exactly?
	What in your life is going well at the moment?
	My job.
	Okay, so you have a job that's going well.
	Fantastic.
	That's good.
	But that's it, right?
	Right.
	Are you passive at your work?
	I don't believe that.
	I mean, do you just...
	Yeah, I mean, you don't just sit around and wait to be told what to do.
	You probably take some initiative, you get things done, right?
	I mean, you can't have a good job if you just sit around like a potato waiting to be pushed around by someone, right?
	I mean, you're doing stuff in your job that is active.
	Right.
	Right.
	So...
	Has he been cheating on you for three years, off and on?
	Uh, yeah.
	Right.
	Right.
	Now, it seems to be that in order to overcome a bad experience, you need 10 good experiences.
	Right?
	So, like, I mean, if you go to a restaurant and you get a really terrible meal, then it takes at least 10 good meals in the same restaurant for it to even out, if that makes sense.
	So, for Dallas to make up...
	For his infidelity of three years, right?
	You're a smart young lady.
	How long is he going to have to be perfectly faithful to overcome this?
	Thirty.
	Thirty years.
	Thirty years of pure faithfulness might overcome this.
	Three years.
	Now, the restaurant thing is interesting.
	So if you had three bad meals in a row at a restaurant, would you go back?
	And it was your first three meals at that restaurant?
	No.
	No.
	Now, if you've been going to the restaurant for years and you'd had lots of great meals and then you had one bad meal, you'd probably cut them a break, right?
	Yeah.
	So first impressions, I believe, are even stronger than...
	The 10 to 1 ratio.
	I don't know if it's 20 to 1 or 30 to 1 or I don't know, right?
	But let's just stay with 10 to 1.
	So let's say that he changes completely tomorrow and is perfectly faithful and a perfect boyfriend and husband.
	How old will you be when you trust him?
	54.
	Fifty fucking four years old.
	Fifty-four years old.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	if he becomes the perfect boyfriend tonight.
	Right?
	Right.
	If you had $10,000, Sarah, How much money would you put down on him never cheating again?
	I have no idea.
	Sure you do.
	Let's say, hey, if he doesn't cheat ever again on you, I will give you double the money you put down.
	But if he cheats, I get to keep it all.
	How much money would you put down?
	Maybe 2,000.
	You put $2,000 down that he will never, ever cheat again?
	I meant $8,000.
	I was doing the opposite.
	I'm sorry.
	I meant $8,000.
	So you're 80% certain that Dallas will never, ever cheat again?
	No, right.
	$2,000.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm confusing myself.
	Okay.
	No, no.
	That's fine.
	That's fine.
	So you're roughly 20% certain that he will never cheat again?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Now, if you can put Dallas on for just a sec, I appreciate your time.
	Thank you.
	What did you say?
	If you could put Dallas on again.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah, I'm here.
	I've been listening the whole time.
	So, Dallas, why do you cheat?
	Well, that's why I called in, because I know that it's not a good thing to do.
	I know that I've...
	Yeah, yeah, don't give me home.
	Don't give me platitudes, right?
	It's not a good thing to do.
	Come on, don't state the obvious to me, right?
	I know that.
	The reason you're calling in is, you know, why do you smoke?
	Well, I know it's not a good thing to do.
	It's like, yeah, we know.
	Let's get to, right?
	So why do you do it?
	Well, when I'm around attractive women, I feel good when I'm able to talk to them.
	I feel good when they're attracted back to me.
	I feel good when the flirting escalates.
	So it makes me feel good.
	You get a high, right?
	Yes.
	You get an endorphin hit, right?
	You get a high of sexual appeal, right?
	Absolutely.
	All right.
	And why do you need that?
	How do you feel when you don't get that?
	I feel average.
	I feel like there's more that I should be experiencing.
	I don't feel fulfilled.
	Yeah, so you feel like if the romantic high is like 100%, then what's it when there's no woman to flirt with around?
	What is your happiness at?
	If I'm going to take a guess, probably at 50%, 60%.
	Okay, so you're only like half happy, half as happy.
	I think that's probably a bit high because an endorphin rush, which is probably what you're experiencing when you, you know, you're happy chemicals in your brain, that's quite a high, right?
	Right.
	And it's probably not you're 50% happy.
	Again, I don't want to tell you your experience.
	But don't you kind of crave it?
	I mean, you're taking some really big risky behavior here, right?
	I mean, STDs and pregnancies and like you are taking serious fucking chances here, right?
	Yes.
	So that can't be just to double your happiness.
	Right.
	Then it probably is more than maybe I'm not judging it correctly.
	So it's probably a lot lower than that.
	It may even be negative, right?
	It could be.
	Yeah.
	But I don't know why that is.
	Why do I have a deficiency?
	Why do I have a deficiency even when I am what feels to be?
	Like, logically, Sarah seems to be a wonderful woman, and yet I still have this—I'm in a— No, no, no, no.
	Again, we're going to try and stay away from platitudes, right?
	Let me tell you this.
	Let me tell you this, man to man.
	A wonderful woman would have kicked your cheating ass at the curb years ago.
	So don't give me this – like she's a bit of a broken woman and I say this with all respect and I also say this with no – with every sense that she can become whole and strong again.
	But a wonderful woman would not have put up with this.
	You know that, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yep.
	I agree.
	Right?
	So, no.
	Let's just stay away from the platitudes because the platitudes don't help, right?
	You can't get a PhD browsing the hallmark card aisle, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So, who are you if you're not sexually attractive to someone new?
	What value do you bring?
	What value do I bring to myself or other people around me?
	I don't know what it means to bring value to yourself, but to other people, right?
	Who are you if you're not being attractive to someone?
	That's not a very easy question to answer, so I can try again unless something's popping into your mind.
	Yeah, yeah, it is.
	I mean, I feel like when I'm around my friends, I do have good conversations.
	Obviously, I'm very much into philosophy.
	I'd like to think I'm into psychology.
	I'd like to think that I'm, in other areas of my life, that I'm a virtuous person, that I'm intelligent, and that when I'm around people, I do connect with them.
	The only person I haven't really connected with, I would say, is with Sarah, really.
	But with my friends, I do feel a deep friendship and connection.
	What do you mean you haven't connected with?
	Connected with how?
	You mean over three years or what?
	Yeah, over three years.
	Like, now that you're, you know, I guess, you're telling me what I already knew.
	But I realized that the connection wasn't probably what I imagined it to be with her.
	Because, like you're saying, a wonderful woman wouldn't have to put up with that.
	So, the fact that she did put up with it.
	Maybe I had a connection in a way that enabled me to do what I did rather than...
	Yeah, look, I mean, the short answer as to why you cheat is because you can.
	You know, it's the whole question of like, well, why does a dog lick his own balls?
	Because he can, right?
	I mean, because you get away with it, right?
	Right.
	Right?
	I mean, why does a guy rob an unprotected bank?
	Why does a guy pick up a wallet he finds in Central Park, right?
	Because...
	Because he can.
	Because you're not going to get caught, right?
	Right, right.
	Go ahead, go ahead.
	I was going to say, and it wasn't always consistent cheating.
	It would be at times I would break up with him and be like, hey, we need to take a break, and I would go see other women.
	No, no, no.
	I don't want to hear that nonsense, right?
	Okay.
	You're cheating on her.
	You can say, well, we were on a break!
	It doesn't matter.
	You're cheating on her, right?
	So, I mean, I get that there's times when you're asleep that you're not cheating on her, right?
	I get that there are times when you may have broken up when you're not cheating on her.
	But let's not muddy the waters in this way, right?
	I mean, you cheat on her.
	Yes, fair enough.
	Absolutely.
	And I'm not trying to, you know, like, oh, and therefore, right, you know, we should release the hounds of hell against you or anything.
	But I just don't want to waste time on...
	You know, mealy-mouthed ins and outs and justifications and so on, right?
	It's not going to help, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So...
	So the short answer is you cheat because you can, right?
	Yes.
	Right?
	Because if you knew for sure that she was going to kick you to the curb, then you'd experience a negative repercussion, and then you wouldn't have...
	You would have had a pause, right?
	In other words, she's helping you not hit rock bottom, right?
	Right, correct.
	Either you're going to change because you have some conscience awakening thing, right?
	Or you're going to change because your life gets so unbelievably shitty because of what you're doing.
	That, you know, you have to, right?
	Right.
	It's like the gambler.
	The gambler either says, oh my god, if I keep going, I'm going to lose my home, right?
	And then he forces himself away from the gambling table or he loses his home and the mafia break his knees and he's got no clothes and, you know, whatever, right?
	Then he's like, well, I guess I have to change now because I didn't learn from experience.
	I didn't learn from reason, so now I have to learn through bitter experience, right?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	So the short answer is you get away with it, and that's why you do it.
	So you have a high, and you can manage the downside because you can manipulate Sarah, right?
	Yes, correct.
	Yep.
	I mean, you know that keeping her with you is not healthy for her, right?
	Correct.
	It's not healthy for either of us, but yeah.
	No, no, no.
	Forget about you.
	You've thought enough about you over the last three years.
	Forget about you for a sec.
	Just focus on her.
	Right.
	So you know...
	At least I'm going to assume you've known each other for three years or been together for three years, known each other for longer.
	So you know that she was bullied and coerced as a child and was not allowed to develop her own will and choice in any effective way, right?
	And she's compliant to a significant fault through no fault of her own, right?
	Correct.
	So you know...
	That she is the person most likely to put up with the crap you're dealing out, right?
	Yes.
	So you are exploiting her brokenness so that you have a safe harbor for when it doesn't work out with these other women.
	You have a place to go back to so you've got a roof over your head until you either find a better woman or...
	Somehow the urge mysteriously evaporates, right?
	Right.
	That's right.
	So why have you not found any better women?
	No, I haven't.
	Right.
	And one of the reasons why you haven't found a better woman is that they're willing to sleep with a guy who's in a relationship, right?
	Right, right.
	So you really are surrounded by broken women, right?
	And you are breaking them further.
	Yes.
	So...
	Give me the example that you've had, if any, of a stable, successful, mature relationship.
	Romantically.
	Romantic relationship.
	I haven't had any.
	I've had girlfriends that I've been faithful to in the past, but it wasn't a satisfying relationship.
	Okay, so your parents, I assume, then did not have a functional, mature relationship?
	Nope, not at all.
	How so?
	Well...
	I know that when I was a kid, there was a lot of yelling and screaming.
	I felt, even as a kid, I always felt like my mom placed a lot of emphasis on me when she was raising me because she was lacking love for my dad.
	I never had a relationship with my dad, even though they were married the whole time.
	I never spent any time with my dad.
	Like, we never had a conversation.
	We've never played a game together.
	We've had conversations like, oh, well, the weather's nice today, let's go take the boat out.
	And we would go take the boat out, but we wouldn't talk.
	Bullshit, we're immortal time wasters, you know?
	Right, and when we're on the boat, there's no conversation.
	So I've never really had a conversation with my dad.
	My parents never loved each other.
	I know that for a fact, because at the age of maybe 16 or 17, my mom told me that she never loved my dad, that she just got married, because The way I understand it is he was a really great provider.
	I mean, he was pretty successful.
	I grew up, well, my family's from overseas.
	I was born overseas in Eastern Europe.
	My dad had a lot of money.
	My mom lived with her parents.
	She found my dad, I guess, from a blind date.
	Her family put them together with his family, and that's how they met each other.
	So she went along with him because he was such a great provider and she wanted to get out of her own household, which was extremely abusive.
	So there was never really any love.
	And when they had kids, I mean, I think my mom substituted all the love that she didn't have in that relationship somehow with me.
	You know, I'm not really sure how, but there was a lot of pressure on me to, I don't know, A lot of pressure on me to provide that kind of love to my mom, I guess.
	And did your father have affairs?
	As far as I know, he didn't have affairs, but I do remember something that bothered me as a child was that I felt that my dad was flirtatious with the women.
	That bothered me.
	I felt like...
	Okay, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	I appreciate...
	I just got a couple of questions before I forget them, right?
	So, okay, so first and foremost, if your dad...
	I'm going to assume your mom was very pretty.
	I think so.
	I think so, yeah.
	She was also a lot younger than him, so...
	She was an attractive woman, but she wasn't like a 10.
	Right, right, okay.
	And...
	Do you know if they continued to have a sex life when you grew up?
	You know, I don't know.
	The only thing I do remember is when we moved to the United States, I was 12 years old.
	I heard them one time, so I'm assuming at least once in 12 years they did.
	Right.
	Right.
	So do you think that your father...
	Did not have a sex drive?
	I mean, did he just say, okay, well, was your father good-looking as well?
	I don't think so.
	I mean, he was bald and a little chubby and stuff like that.
	Right, okay.
	So, do you think that your father basically said, well, I'm a wealthy guy with a younger, hot wife who's not having sex with me, so I'm just not going to have sex?
	No, I would say it was probably the opposite.
	Okay, so either...
	You know what it's like to be a guy, right?
	Yeah.
	You're either having sex with someone or you're masturbating, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, tell me I'm wrong.
	Tell me you've managed to elevate your balls to some platonic realm of ideal abstinence.
	No, you're right.
	But the balls are like, you know, hey...
	Time to spray.
	Time to discharge.
	We're getting kind of moldy down here.
	It's like this giant fire hose and the world is burning, right?
	Okay.
	So, I mean, this is fundamental to understand about our parents.
	Nothing wrong with it.
	I mean, the whole sex drive is why we're here.
	I'm glad my mom was hot.
	Otherwise, I wouldn't even be a spot, right?
	So...
	Your dad was getting it from your mom, or he was getting it from other women, or he was masturbating.
	Okay.
	My assumption is that he most likely was getting it from my mom.
	Yeah, okay.
	But you said they didn't love each other, right?
	Right.
	And he was flirting with other women, right?
	Right.
	So what are the odds that...
	I mean, you know, you see, when you see a couple, I mean, I hate to put it this bluntly, when you see a couple who enjoy each other in the bedroom, it's kind of hard to miss.
	Right.
	You know, like these weird robotic Victorian Monty Python-esque couples who refer to each other as mother and father and, you know, do nothing to make themselves attractive and have halitosis.
	I mean, you know there's no, you know, they may be masturbating like cocaine-laced spider monkeys, but they're sure as hell not having sex with each other.
	You can see when there's these giant genital cobwebs hanging between people.
	And you can see when people are in love and affectionate, and it's not just about the sex.
	It's about the physical intimacy, hugging.
	They like to touch each other.
	They like to hold hands.
	They like to cuddle.
	The physical intimacy is there.
	So, was that there with your parents?
	No, not at all.
	I don't think I've ever witnessed them hold hands or hug.
	I may have seen them give each other a peck on the lips twice in my life maybe if I remember.
	But there was absolutely no physical affection between the two of them.
	Right.
	So they're either having like weird Terminator angry fucked up sex or they're just not having sex with each other, right?
	Right, right.
	Thank you.
	So do you think your dad was masturbating or was he getting something on the side?
	The way I know my dad, I mean, I guess I don't know him that well, but my opinion, I would lean towards him masturbating more than him going I would lean towards him masturbating more than him going out and getting laid.
	But I don't know.
	It seems like the evidence could point the other way, too.
	Right.
	And they're still married, right?
	Yes.
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay, so let's say that your dad's not had affairs.
	Let's just say he's, you know, thumping the bishop twice in the morning and every night.
	Well, Steph, can I say something?
	The only reason I say that is because at a very young age, we had to leave our country, my country of origin, and he lost all his wealth, basically, at that time.
	Oh, so now he's just like an old, chubby, bald, broke guy.
	Right, right.
	I mean he's well – like he's okay but he's not wealthy status.
	He doesn't have the social status.
	He doesn't have the cars, the houses, whatever.
	He's just – Yeah, yeah.
	But he could – I mean I'm not saying it's only money, right?
	But according to Sarah, you're not like staggeringly great looking and you're not rich but you're able to pick up tail on the side, right?
	Right.
	Well, right.
	Right.
	So, okay, but let's say he's not having any affairs.
	Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.
	I don't know.
	Maybe you want to get out on a boat and chat about it with him?
	That might be a good thing to talk about, right?
	You know, man to man, right?
	But you have a template which is you do not find sexual satisfaction with your primary life partner.
	That's your parents' template, right?
	Right.
	So for you, the hotness is outside.
	I mean, it's not like the grass is greener.
	That's the only grass, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	So that's your template.
	And if you follow that template, you will end up exactly where your parents are.
	You understand?
	Right, that I do not want to, I mean, that's what I'm calling.
	Well, you do and you don't, right?
	Right.
	I don't want to go to Mongolia tonight.
	How do you know?
	I ain't in Mongolia.
	Right.
	Right, so just saying you don't want to, again, that's just Mach 12, 30,000 foot hallmark flyby, right?
	I mean, that's just a platitude.
	I don't want any of that.
	It's like, well, you kind of do, right?
	Because...
	All of our sexuality is programmed by our parents, fundamentally.
	For reasons that are so obvious, they're barely even worth mentioning.
	Because our parents represent sexual success in the tribe.
	So if your dad puts on a clown mask and a unicorn costume every night that he goes upstairs to sleep with your mom, Well, what are you going to do when you hit puberty?
	I'd like me one of those clown masks and unicorn costumes, right?
	Because that's what gets you laid, and that's what gets you to procreate.
	And by God, we will adapt to whatever gets our sperm access to those eggs, right?
	Right.
	If you've got to chant and yodel and put baby oil between your toes and stick a fern up your ass, guess what?
	It's yodel, baby oil, fern up the ass time.
	We simply do whatever our parents did by default.
	That is our sexual fetish, I guess you could say.
	It doesn't have to be a fetish or anything like that.
	But we do what our parents did.
	Our balls follow our dad's balls, right?
	Right.
	Because our dad's balls led to us, and that's what our balls are for.
	Our balls are just using us to make more balls.
	We are a ball factory for the balls, right?
	So whatever our dad did, that's what we do.
	And if your dad was like, okay, well, you have some sex, a little bit, I guess, to procreate, but then you go and find your sexual satisfaction elsewhere, and you don't find it within your relationship, well, guess what?
	That's your...
	For an up-the-ass stuff, right?
	Yep.
	And that's exactly what I'm doing.
	That's exactly what you're doing.
	Okay.
	Why did your mom stay with him?
	Why?
	Social pressure.
	I'm just guessing, but probably social pressure.
	She was pretty...
	I mean, I didn't mean pretty, but I was going to say she was pretty, I guess, probably beat down in her life, too.
	Yeah.
	Maybe possibly similar personality to what Sarah has.
	I don't know.
	Yeah, she was abused in her household, right?
	Right.
	And so she'll put up with a sexless relationship, right?
	Right.
	Because she's not allowed to assert her preferences, right?
	No, absolutely not.
	Right.
	And neither is Sarah.
	She was grown up to not assert her preferences, right?
	Correct.
	So do you...
	And again, I'm keeping...
	Purposefully and consciously, Dallas, I'm keeping the moral argument off the table because I don't need to tell you, right?
	You're already telling yourself and it's not helping.
	First thing you said, well, I know that it's wrong, but...
	Right.
	Goddamn, that foreign pussy is alluring, right?
	Right.
	Correct.
	Yes.
	Right.
	So me moralizing is not going to do any good for you because you're already doing that.
	You already know, right?
	Right.
	Logically, I already understand everything wrong with it, but, you know...
	Yeah, yeah.
	I mean, it's not...
	Smoking is bad for you.
	Okay, but I'm still smoking, right?
	It's not...
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So you have a template of sexuality...
	Which is you find broken, desperate women and you let them attach themselves to you and then you go out and you find sexual satisfaction either through masturbation or through other women.
	If that's not an accurate description of your parents' marriage, tell me and we'll visit it again.
	Right.
	No, that sounds accurate and if it's not necessarily accurate of my parents, it's definitely accurate of My description, or my experience.
	Right.
	So, do you want to be banging your mom?
	No, I don't.
	Well, again, we do and we don't, right?
	We do and we don't.
	Why did we want to be banging our mom?
	Because that's where daddy's balls led, right?
	Right.
	And not our mom literally, obviously, right?
	But that is...
	Our father's behavior is what the women in our tribe found attractive enough to procreate with, right?
	Right.
	So we need a woman like mom because our balls have no idea about the internet.
	Our balls have absolutely zero idea that we're LinkedIn.
	They want to get kinked in.
	They don't care so much about LinkedIn.
	Right?
	They don't know.
	As far as our balls know, We live in a tribe of maybe 100 people, maybe 120.
	That's all our balls know.
	Tiny, tiny selection, right?
	I mean, our balls are so stupid, they can't even recognize pixels from real eggs.
	Our balls are so stupid that you can read penthouse-style Ask your parents.
	Penthouse-style letters about sex, and your balls are like, those letters, they sound fertile.
	Let's squirt on them and see what happens.
	Maybe we'll get baby letters.
	Maybe we'll get superscript.
	Maybe that's where footnotes come from.
	Let's try anyway.
	Right.
	I read a description of a woman's ass, which is like two oranges in a stocking.
	My balls are like, two oranges?
	I like juice?
	Let's get excited by that!
	Right.
	You ever see a grandmother with big tits?
	I mean, my balls are like, I don't know what's going on.
	But there's something going on.
	Right.
	I mean, literally, this is how our balls have barely evolved from, like, Frogs in a stream squirting semen into the current, right?
	And that's just something to recognize.
	Our balls have not...
	The only reason that pornography exists is because our balls have not been upgraded since the fucking reptile era, right?
	Because, you know, your brain says, well, those are just pixels, right?
	Right?
	And your balls are like, well, that's true.
	I get that they're pixels, but maybe we can start a monitor business.
	Let's squirt anyway.
	Maybe we'll get new monitors.
	I mean, maybe I'll just short out the keyboard.
	I don't care, but I'm doing something because something's going on, right?
	And so the reason that I'm saying all this is that our balls are like Who fucked mom?
	Okay, be like him.
	And find a woman like mom because there aren't that many around.
	It's a small tribe and nothing changes that much, right?
	Right.
	So the fact that you've ended up with a woman kind of like your mom replicating your parents' marriage makes perfect sense.
	Right.
	Right.
	You know, balls are like this...
	Gelatin-based photocopier where the ink all squirts in your eye.
	Right?
	Right.
	Sorry, I shouldn't laugh.
	Balls are so dumb.
	It's like, I don't know, maybe that's how we make another eye!
	So that's why you're in this photocopy phase, right?
	And it is, of course, it's a lack of understanding this stuff, and it's a lack of self-knowledge that's causing this repetition, right?
	Correct.
	Okay, so now that we've spent some time illuminating all of that, what do you need to do?
	That's a tough question.
	I was going to ask you what I should do next, but...
	It sounds like you want me to answer, so my opinion, obviously, at least for now, definitely for now, probably for the future, get out of the relationship I'm in, some kind of therapy to make sure that I'm staying on track, that I'm understanding the choices I'm making as I'm making them.
	And I don't know.
	I guess...
	I'm not sure what else I can do.
	I mean, I want to know how to not make these mistakes.
	Or is it...
	I guess my question is...
	No, that's fear.
	No, fear will...
	Smoking apparently is great, right?
	So why do smokers quit?
	Because they don't want to end up with that...
	Sexy Microsoft Anna robot voice coming out of a fucking hole in their neck or six feet under the ground, right?
	It's fear that makes people quit smoking, right?
	They look forward down the road of time and they see a very short grave and a very unpleasant end, right?
	Yeah.
	So, what you have to do is, like Moses parting the Red Sea, you must part your balls and look into the future, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Shoulder those bad boys aside.
	Lower the skin flap.
	Look into the future.
	If you keep doing this stuff, you will end up where your parents are.
	You will end up having a kid and when that kid is 17, your wife, maybe it would be Sarah, will be saying, I fucking hate your dad.
	I fucking hate that guy.
	I don't love him at all.
	And that will be your life.
	Except these days, I don't know where you guys are right now, but it doesn't sound like you're calling from Slovenia, which always looks like, as the joke goes, it's the biggest danger is a Shrek attack.
	But these days, you don't get that.
	You pot those balls and you look down...
	Into the future, what you're going to see is a huge smoking crater where your finances, balls, and sanity used to be.
	Because your wife is going to leave you and take all your shit and take your children.
	Right.
	And that's going to be your life.
	So that is the lung cancer, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Right.
	Right.
	So is it just a matter of willpower?
	I mean, I know you're talking about fear and I'm definitely afraid of that.
	No, no, no.
	Don't complicate things now.
	You had it already.
	Self-knowledge.
	If you can talk to your parents about their marriage, that would be great.
	You know, the more information you can get out of your parents, almost inevitably the better your life is going to be.
	Okay.
	So, you know, talk to your parents.
	Figure out their marriage.
	Get some therapy.
	Start to work on yourself.
	And start to recognize that, you know, talk to your balls.
	Right?
	Right.
	Talk to your balls.
	If you have to do yoga, like if they're hard of hearing, do some yoga.
	Figure out what you've got to do.
	If you've got to turn yourself into...
	A pipe cleaner to talk to them.
	Be the ball whisperer.
	Right?
	You talk to your balls.
	Say, hey, I want what you want.
	I want kids.
	But I also want those kids to be around.
	Right?
	Because if we're not around, we ain't going to be able to imprint on those kids that they should grow up to want or use balls like ours.
	Just tell your balls, look, We're changing our strategy here.
	Like, there's two strategies.
	You've got the left ball to spray your seed like a toad, and you've got the right ball to heavily invest in pair bonding and stick around for the kid's upbringing, right?
	Right.
	And just say, listen, we're not doing the left ball strategy.
	I'm not spraying my seed like a frog in a stream.
	We're going to focus and get what we want, right?
	Right.
	And listen, you can also say to your balls, and I've mentioned this in the show before, look, we're in for the long haul, brother.
	Brothers.
	My sweet little siblings, my little castanets of photocopying, we're in this for the long haul.
	Because if we end up with a broken woman who doesn't like us, guess what?
	We're not getting much sex for the rest of our lives.
	We may end up masturbating at 3 o'clock in the morning down by the water heater in the basement, but that's not really going to be very satisfying, right?
	So if you all want some butt slap in action, then we need to get a great woman who loves us so that we can have wild, passionate, hang-from-the-ceiling...
	One toe strapped to a rotating fan blade, monkey sex for the rest of her life.
	So let's go for quality and quantity rather than just quantity, a divorce, and then living out the back of a Prius for the next 20 years, right?
	Where nobody will touch us with even our own 10-foot pole, right?
	Somebody says, depends on the water heater. - Sure.
	You people are fucking freaks.
	You people are freaks.
	I love it.
	All right.
	Oh.
	Well, I appreciate it.
	It's amazing.
	I mean, I had no idea, well, kind of, but how dysfunctional it really is, and when you're in it, you don't I mean, until you get some kind of big scare or something, it's...
	I would have kept going down this road.
	So I really appreciate your input.
	You shine a light on it, and I understand that this is just the tip of the iceberg, too.
	I mean, I guess this is where it starts, and I do something different with my life.
	And the other thing, too, and I just sort of mentioned this...
	I just want to mention this to men in general.
	You know, male sexuality is kind of demonized in the world.
	Actually, it's not kind of demonized.
	It's pretty much demonized.
	And I'm not just talking about rape culture and stuff like that, although that's obviously part of it.
	But male sexuality is considered base and gross.
	Because women, you see, they want to stare tenderly into your eyes as your hips barely move and you have some sort of tantric, sting-based pseudo-orgasm deep in the ethereal dimensions of another lovely planet of gently mating unicorns.
	But, I don't know what, men want it from behind.
	Men are animals.
	Men are brutes.
	It's base.
	It's gross.
	It's rapey.
	There is a lot of shaming of male sexuality.
	That goes on in the world.
	And I think within every man's heart, we need to examine our relationship to female views of male sexuality.
	And male sexuality used to be considered a pretty positive force.
	It's kind of why we have civilization.
	Penis brought you things to make you comfortable so that you can lie down, so that we can have sex.
	Penis brought you air conditioning so it's not too hot when we have sex.
	Penis brought you heater so that you're not too cold to have sex.
	Man-made phone so he can call you for call made of bootiness.
	Here's a basket of fruit.
	Let's have sex.
	This is one of the main reasons why we have civilization, and civilization is a great and wonderful thing.
	Want VCR to simulate sex.
	Want internet to further disseminate sex.
	You know, mankind is like this giant hovercraft that runs on these ball-bearing testicles over a pretty grippy desert.
	You know, it's the balls that make the world move.
	It is a well-lubricated, well-oiled Ball-bearing based machine of progress.
	And I have huge respect for male sexuality.
	I think it's a wonderful force in the world.
	I think it is the basis of pair bonding that keeps women and children protected.
	I think it's a wonderfully positive and beautiful force in the world.
	But you won't hear that a lot in the world.
	Male sexuality and environmental predation, they're like the new original sense, right?
	I mean men are just bad for To the point where rape is somehow considered on the continuum of male sexuality.
	You know, it's like women kill their kids a lot more than men do.
	But I don't know that many people have said, well, you know, we really need to work to get women to not kill their children.
	Because killing children is...
	Elemental and is on the continuum of female preferences.
	You know, like, really nice pair of shoes, a good Daniel Steele novel, maybe something by Nora Ephron, and Killing My Children.
	You know, somewhere on that continuum.
	I'd like a cupcake or my children's necks severed on a platter.
	You know, I don't think many people say that, but somehow sexual aggression in this has become part of the general spectrum of male preferences.
	Men wake up in the morning and say, well, you know, I could go to a job, I could get some money, I could screw my courage up like Horace Wimp and ask...
	Some woman out on a date or I could go strangle a stranger and rape her senseless.
	I mean that's just not – I don't know who these men are.
	I mean it's not on the list of – well, either.
	We're going to go out for a nice dinner and I'm going to see if I can accidentally slip my arm around her in the movie theater and then see if she will give me a little kiss or something like that.
	Or, you know, I'm going to deploy the airbag and bang her while she's unconscious.
	You know, I mean, this is just not on the continuum of...
	The vast majority of men's thoughts.
	But there is a lot of demonization of male sexuality.
	And I think that's really important.
	You know, most people conform to the expectations around them.
	And it has become so circular that I think men sort of feel uncomfortable stating their sexual preferences.
	Well, this is what I want.
	This is how I like it and so on.
	I don't know.
	Maybe some men do feel.
	But I think, you know, it took me a little while to get...
	Anyway.
	So, I just really wanted to mention that because it's been a while since we've...
	Had a ball-steep conversation.
	All right.
	Mr.
	Mike, if we can move on to the next one, please give us a shot and let us know how it goes.
	And thanks again to both of you, to Dallas and Sarah, for your honesty and your openness.
	I appreciate that.
	Thanks, Steph.
	Thank you, man.
	Alright, Marina is up next, and she wrote in and said, I have a problem with time and task management.
	I've become afraid to make commitments because I fear disappointing others and have many unfinished projects in my wake.
	I continuously feel like I'm in catch-up mode, but I rarely actually catch up.
	It's a constant disappointment in my life, and I feel like I'm always dropping the ball or underachieving, disappointing myself and others.
	How do I overcome this issue?
	Hmm.
	I just have to get this out of my head that I knew a woman called Marina some years ago who kept being referred to as the Klingon.
	Do you know why?
	No.
	What's a synonym for Marina?
	Worf!
	Anyway, that's a joke that only some women will get.
	I'm assuming you don't have a giant forehead.
	The forehead cleavage apparently is very big among Klingons, but...
	All right.
	Um...
	So tell me a little bit more about these issues.
	Well, I've done a lot of research and listened to a lot of obviously talks with other callers and I've kind of realized where I guess it comes from.
	I'm just trying to figure out how to fix it.
	I come across really well to people.
	I'm in sales, so I sell myself well.
	And I'm very competent when I need to be and when it's really pressure time.
	But I just feel like I'm always under pressure imposed on myself simply because I put things off and it's last minute.
	It's great when it's done.
	So I am competent enough to do a great job, but I just can't seem to do it You know, allocate enough time and I'm always distracting myself with other things that are kind of shorter and more enjoyable at the moment.
	I remember doing that as a kid, like in middle school.
	I would not do my homework and I would go to sleep and I don't know what the point of that was because then I would wake up in the middle of the night and feel guilty and get up and do it.
	And then I did this so much.
	You know, I always did it because I didn't want to get in trouble and get bad grades, but I seem to just always put myself in that kind of stressful situation.
	Right.
	Right.
	No, listen, I mean, that's like such a common problem, and I don't mean to say that it's not important.
	It's a hugely important problem, and I appreciate you bringing it up because we all face it.
	Oh, we all face it.
	It's like this old joke a friend of mine used to make about how, oh, you find yourself tired on Monday morning, you get up, you don't really have much motivation, you're not particularly happy about going to work.
	There's a support group for that.
	It's called The Human Race, and we meet in the bar on Fridays.
	Yeah.
	I guess it's more than that.
	I guess where I'm going with this is that I realized that my dad never really...
	Well, okay, let me back up.
	I always really want approval.
	And so, I mean, there's definitely times when I've not finished things and I've not done them as well as I wanted to.
	So it's not like I get it all done perfectly.
	And I've always kind of...
	Really hated disappointing people and always wanted connection and hated conflict.
	And it actually still kind of hurts me at work when I don't want to confront someone or tell a client bad news.
	I agonize.
	I put it off.
	But I think it's more like I seek connection with people and I enjoy their first impression of me and them liking me so much that I don't I'm getting tongue-tied.
	I'm sorry.
	No, listen, listen.
	I'm getting used to, right, so we're getting more female callers lately, so I've been thinking, like, till my brain melts about how better...
	And I think I understand, right?
	So for you, like, for men, it's sort of like a laser, right?
	You know, point to the thoughts, right?
	But for women, it's like there's, like, 1,200 lasers all advancing at different speeds and different colors and interacting with each other, right?
	I mean, it's...
	Right?
	So when you're trying to get a problem across, aren't you getting like six million trails of thought that you have to kind of whittle down?
	Yeah, I have notes in front of me.
	I'm sitting here looking at like 10 pieces of paper I've written notes on for the last two weeks.
	Just things from different colors.
	So I get that.
	I understand that.
	Just be yourself.
	Don't self-censor.
	You're doing exactly what the female brain does, which is fantastic.
	I've really been trying to figure this out to make sure that I can be as useful to men or as useless to women as I am to men or as useful to women as I am to men.
	So don't worry about that.
	I get it.
	It's a massive parallel processing device that...
	It moves a huge amount of things forward at the same time.
	The destination sometimes remains a little unknown, but that's alright.
	Don't sweat it.
	I feel like I'm scattered in my thoughts, but I have no problem with physical action, I guess.
	I will seek the easier physical action of either cleaning my desk rather than actually filling out the paperwork on it.
	Even when I meet men, I will...
	I'll procrastinate work or avoid stuff that's painful if I deliver bad news to a client.
	I'll avoid it until they're frustrated waiting for my answer.
	I'll look for physical needs and fulfill those first, I guess.
	Yeah, no, that makes sense.
	And I'm agnostic about women and men's brain differences, and I don't want to sort of get pulled off on that topic.
	But I think a lot of what you're describing is common to a lot of women, the feeling of wanting to please everyone, the feeling of not wanting to disappoint, and so on.
	I mean, and to me, I mean, given that...
	No, go ahead.
	I end up disappointing them more because of my procrastination.
	And everyone always, I constantly hear, you have so much potential.
	I've heard that since I can remember.
	But I always just feel like I don't achieve that full potential.
	I don't know.
	I'm getting older and I'm getting frustrated.
	And how old are you?
	I'm going to be 34 in a month and a half.
	Ah.
	How are you feeling about that?
	I've had a lot of growth recently.
	I really never even thought about these things in this way until just in the past two years and really in the last couple of months.
	Do you want to have kids?
	Do you have kids?
	I do not have kids and I do not think I want to have kids.
	I feel myself being with someone who has kids.
	I don't really see myself having biological kids.
	But I think that comes from my lack of responsibility and kind of feeling like I can barely take care of myself.
	Okay, and tell me why you think you – I didn't get that from what you were saying before when you say you can barely take care of yourself.
	What do you mean?
	Well, I don't mean – I mean I guess I'm doing better than the average, you know, whatever statistical – I've just had – I have unfinished projects.
	I'm sitting here in my new place that I've been in for a year.
	Here's a great example.
	I have such a hard time deciding on small stuff, like what color to paint, and unpacking that I still have boxes, and I have painted, and everyone's like, you've been here a year.
	Why can't you finish?
	I just can't seem to commit.
	I have a problem.
	No, just blow their minds and say, I'm waiting for an alpha male to tell me what to do.
	Just completely blow their minds, because I know that's not the case.
	Well, but I feel like my dad and my brother, because that's kind of who I grew up with, kind of have been that, and they've always told me what to do, and I've never really...
	A lot of what you said to a few callers about not having...
	You know, not really...
	Just telling your kid what to do without their input, I think that's where it's coming from, because...
	My mom, dad, when I was little, and so it was just my dad and my brother, and we lived in communist Russia.
	So my dad was never home.
	He was working, and my brother basically was my dad.
	So it was always like, do this, go there.
	I just felt like this background, little thing in the background that had to be taken care of and just kind of did what I was told.
	And I'm thinking that's where it comes from, but I don't know how to change it or make it better or...
	So tell me, I mean, was there any time in your childhood when people sort of sat down with you and said, you know, how do you want this year to go?
	What would be important to you?
	Is there anything missing or anything that could be improved in your experience within this family?
	Or what are your thoughts or dreams?
	Or what can we facilitate?
	Or, you know, really take an interest in you and try to help figure out what you wanted or needed so that effort could be made to provide it.
	No, they just always figured they knew what I needed and food and shelter, and that was pretty much it.
	It's a lot easier than asking, right?
	I mean, that's one of the problems with communism.
	It's like, well, the Soviet knows what you need, right?
	We're not going to ask, right?
	I mean, so you just...
	Yeah, and my dad, because my mom died and my dad was never around, he really didn't know how to really give me any kind of...
	I've only started getting an emotional connection with him recently because of...
	Crazy stuff that happened in my life that he had to step in and kind of like, I had to shatter his perfect little image of me and get him to come down off of his, you know, my daughter's perfect and clearly I wasn't.
	And we've actually started having honest conversations recently, but it's just started and I'm realizing, I don't know, I guess why I'm really good under pressure is because I'm I've always been under pressure, do this, do that, and I never wanted to.
	It was always like, no, I don't want to.
	And I did it because they were bigger and they were my two dads.
	And so I just don't know how to get past that mental need for pressure.
	Well, okay, so imagine what a week would be like without pressure.
	I mean, what's the first thing that sort of jumps into your mind if you contemplate a week with no pressures?
	Well, I've had that.
	I actually kind of had like a mental breakdown about...
	I was doing drugs and doing all kinds of stuff and not...
	Oh, is this what shattered...
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Is this what shattered your dad's perfect?
	Yeah, dad had no idea.
	And then this huge bombshell fell in his lap.
	My boss, who was also a good friend of mine, kind of like a big sister, called my...
	Brother and then my brother called him and it just turned into this whole thing.
	And so my dad all of a sudden had to humble himself and realize he needed to help me rather than just yell at me to do stuff.
	And so we've grown.
	I was talking to him recently and I said, you know, wow, can you believe that my drug use would have basically turned us into actually having these conversations?
	But I still...
	He's still...
	I don't know.
	I mean, I don't want to get into a bunch of tangents.
	I'm just trying to really figure out how to...
	Like, I know how to connect on a shallow level.
	I have a really great, you know, knowledge of a lot of things in a superficial way because I do...
	I talk a lot to a lot of people.
	I meet a lot of people.
	Sales is one of those things you learn a lot from experiences you have with others.
	And people really like me.
	But a lot of times with long-term clients, I find myself disappointing them because...
	I may not call them back or I'll drop little balls here and there.
	And it's like they thought I was so amazing and perfect.
	And then there's frustration that starts to build once there's a longer term relationship that's beyond the initial...
	You know, everything.
	I had a seller tell me, it was like butterflies and rainbows when we first talked to you, and now you're just stabbing us in the heart every week when you tell us to reduce the price.
	I'm a realtor.
	So you know what I mean?
	I hate that feeling in that long-term relationship when you have to deal with conflict and deal with actual real stuff.
	And I don't really have the skills to.
	I'm just kind of learning them at this late stage.
	Right.
	I think, and I avoid.
	And so my procrastination of not wanting to deal with conflict makes me avoid it.
	And it creates bigger conflict than, I don't know.
	It's just this cycle.
	I feel like a hamster running in the hamster wheel.
	Right.
	So are you saying that people get an unrealistically positive impression of you at the beginning, which then you kind of have to retreat from because it's completely unsustainable?
	Yeah.
	So your personality is like this giant push-up bra, right, with like makeup and, you know, somebody said, you know, first date, take the woman swimming so that you see what she looks like without the pancake on, right?
	So you have this, you know, you don't know that this Lamborghini is rented, but, you know, let me just drive up here and, right, you're like a debt-based life form.
	You can't possibly sustain your first impressions.
	Is that right?
	I think so.
	I mean, I would say maybe not 100%.
	I mean, I don't really— Oh, no, no.
	Look, I know we're in girly world here, so 100% is like rabies, like anathema.
	Nothing will be 100%.
	I get that.
	We're going to multitask.
	Maybe we'll push 80% to 85%.
	So I get we're not dealing in absolutes, and I fully respect and understand that.
	But you do have a pattern, if I understand this correctly, right?
	The guy says it's butterflies and rainbows, and now you're stabbing me in the heart with a ballpoint pen or something like that, right?
	Yeah.
	So you have a need to portray yourself as perfect, so to speak, when you first meet people, right?
	I guess not perfect, but yeah, yeah.
	But you have unrealistic expectations.
	I have a...
	It's kind of like I portray what I want to be.
	So then once you've got that from them and they like you, then you don't get the same hit, right?
	Like you don't get the same high.
	Like when people love you, when you first meet them, it's a high, right?
	I mean it's like, yay, everybody's happy and it's giddy, right?
	Yeah.
	It's like the beginning of a romantic relationship where it's like, where have you been all my life?
	This is perfect.
	We click.
	Everything's fantastic.
	We're never going to have any conflicts.
	Hey, hey, who left the toothbrush cap off the tube?
	I can't believe you, son of a bitch.
	I mean, it's sort of like that, right?
	There's a high, which is unsustainable, and then there's a collapse, which pushes you in search of another high, which is why you're great with short-term clients but not so good with the longer-term clients, right?
	Because that's more like a marriage and less like dating, right?
	Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
	I, yeah, wow.
	I mean, I've had one client after another or just ran, I can talk to a random lead and they have no idea who I am.
	And they'll like, tell me how much, you know, I'm so much better than the last 10 agents they talked to.
	And they'll refer me people that, and they've never even met me.
	And I'm like, wow, I have this weird magical power, but then I can't, I don't know.
	I can't, I guess, sustain it.
	Yeah, I don't.
	Well, it sounds to me like you're addicted to disappointing people, and you only raise their expectations in order to manage your feelings of disappointment, which doubtless come from your childhood, where you probably managed a lot of feelings of disappointing people, particularly men, I would assume, right?
	I don't know if I... I really never felt like I disappointed anyone.
	I felt invisible in childhood.
	I just felt like I was shuffled around and they had to do something with me because I was so much younger.
	My brother could just kind of be left on his own, but I was always...
	You know, I was always gone.
	When my mom was sick, I was sent away for a month, and then Chernobyl happened, and then they sent me away again.
	I barely even remember my dad as a child.
	I really just spent time with random relatives and my brother.
	I remember even, like, wanting to sleep with my brother.
	Not in a sexual way, but just, like, wanting...
	No, no, no, I understand.
	Like, wanting, like, physical cuddles.
	Like, I really just felt like I always just...
	I have very few memories but I have memories of just kind of sitting there quietly not wanting to be a bother because so many other bigger things were happening that I just didn't want to be a bother and I remember my brother like not wanting to I guess he thought it was weird because I mean he is much older than me like and I was really disappointed by that you know like asking if I could sleep with him just to snuggle or whatever I don't even know And now, of course, I do that with guys that I meet now.
	I don't want to have sex with them necessarily, but, you know, I always kind of want some physical closeness.
	And then sometimes, you know, that leads to either pissing them off because I'm teasing them because, you know, I may allow some snuggling, but I don't.
	Or I have sex with them and then I'm like, why did I? I just want to unfuck you.
	I'm sorry.
	I don't say that.
	That's what I think.
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	That's not the e-card that you want to get after the date.
	I'd really like to put that cork back in the bottle and throw back up the wine.
	Okay, yeah, I get it.
	Okay, so let's toss out the addictive disappointment thing.
	Let's try another attack.
	And again, this may all just be theorizing.
	It may be helpful or not.
	But if people didn't pay attention to you but you need to get people's attention, then you kind of have to be on.
	I don't know.
	You know people like this?
	Yeah, that's true.
	Like they always have to be on.
	Like when I was in Amsterdam, I was on a boat ride and there was this comedian.
	And one thing I really like about Joe Rogan is Joe Rogan is an incredibly funny guy, an incredibly accomplished comedian, does not have to be on.
	He can just talk to you.
	Mm-hmm.
	And people who have to be on, this comedian was one of those people.
	It's like – and he was funny.
	Jokes, jokes, jokes, right?
	But people who have to be on, I usually assume it's because they feel that my cake without icing is not interesting.
	Like I need to put all this icing on and sugar flours and those little bead balls.
	I don't know what the hell they're made out of.
	But I've got to have the Rockettes bouncing out of the cake.
	I can't just be a cake without anything on it because nobody's going to pay any attention to that.
	So I've got to be me plus flashpots and strobe lights and dancers in cages and all that and white Siberian tigers with gay people's arms in their mouths or something.
	I have to be something other than merely who I am.
	I have to be a show.
	I can't be a person.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yeah.
	The older I got, the more, like, everyone can't believe I was shy when I was younger because I was a mouse when I was younger.
	But the older I get, the more outgoing and talkative and I can talk to anyone.
	Well, because you, I mean, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm the same way.
	I mean, I was very shy when I was young.
	And you know, I mean, you get where the hell shyness gets you, right?
	Yeah.
	Shyness gets you a life alone, being a librarian, that nobody even notices when they don't show up for work for four days, and then it turns out that their miniature schnauzer has eaten them because they had a heart attack and nobody knew, and the dog got hungry.
	Right?
	So, I mean, this is where shyness gets you in this world.
	It doesn't, you know, shy people, I mean, if they're really physically hot, then shy people can be sort of all kinds of coquettish and they'll get lots of attention and so on.
	But shy people who are just shy, I mean, they just become like wallpaper in the room of life.
	I mean, people stop even noticing them after a while and they're just held to remove.
	They get smelly when you've got to remove them and they're hard to get out of the place.
	So...
	Yeah, I think we all get what happens to...
	To shyness.
	And shyness really is what happens when people don't pay attention to who you are as a person.
	And that, you know, obviously is a strategy.
	That doesn't work.
	That's not going to be satisfying.
	And the world doesn't really notice much in terms of shy people, right?
	I mean, it's that great Beatles song, Eleanor Rigby, about all the shy, all the lonely people.
	Where do they all belong?
	And they just come and die and sit at home alone and watch TV and Never impact much on anyone and just pass through life like a ghost that nobody even gets chilled out when they walk through their bodies.
	So, no, I get that you have to kind of go some other way than shyness when you're a kid because I think we all know where that ends up otherwise.
	But if you haven't dealt with the root issues, right, then it is going to still be an unstable kind of extroversion, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, that's how when I kind of lost my...
	My shit recently, like a couple years ago, that's kind of what happened.
	I just, I got so overwhelmed and so behind and neglected and procrastinated and avoided the hard things in my life so much that I literally just felt like, like in The Exorcist, my head just started spinning and I just lost it.
	And I had to take a complete break.
	I mean, thank God everyone in my life helped somewhat.
	It caused a lot of Anyway, it helped, and I felt, sometimes now, every few days, sometimes I just need to avoid my phone or avoid everything, but that just creates more problems.
	Sure.
	I'm always, it's like a false, yeah, a false on, and then it takes, it sucks the life out of me sometimes, and then I just need a day or two to just shut everyone off, but that's not.
	All right, so here's the least difficult language-based question you're going to get all year.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	What is on backwards?
	No.
	It's no, right?
	Right.
	You got it, right?
	- All right, what am I talking about? - It's, I guess, two sides of the same coin.
	No.
	Okay, so...
	The reason that people think it's butterflies and roses and unicorns when they first meet you is probably because you don't give them any sense of rational limits, right?
	And then later, when the rational limits are imposed, they feel like you've turned on them, right?
	Oh, I see.
	Like, I give too much initially.
	Like, I... No, no, no.
	Creating unrealistic expectations is not giving too much.
	It's manipulating and deluding people.
	Well, and I don't know if it's unrealistic.
	I guess sometimes I... Yes, yes.
	By what you've told me...
	I'm not going off on a narrative thread with you, young lady.
	From what you've told me...
	People think that you're the best thing since sliced bread and then they're very disappointed.
	That must mean unrealistic expectations followed by some limitations or some failures.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I can usually redeem myself as far as, you know, my disappointment is like, oh, I'll get you this, this, and the other.
	No, no, no.
	I'm not going down that narrative thread with you either.
	I get that you redeem yourself because you're not homeless, right?
	I understand that.
	You still have a job, right?
	Of course you redeem yourself.
	What you want to do is get out of the cycle, right?
	Yeah.
	Right?
	I don't want to be like just...
	Above average.
	I always felt like...
	No, I get it.
	You want to be stellar.
	You want to be a star.
	Yeah.
	You want to be a star.
	So the opposite of on is no.
	So on is creating unrealistic expectations in other people.
	And no is when you tell them the realistic limits of what you can do.
	Mm-hmm.
	So, I don't know, let's say I pick you up on a date, and I pick you up at a Lamborghini and take you by helicopter to Paris and then cook you breakfast and bring it to you in bed, and then we go and resurrect Placido Domingo and listen to his ghost sing an aria together and so on, right?
	You're like, well, that's memorable, right?
	Yes.
	And then you find out that I work at Starbucks.
	Is that sustainable?
	Right, it's not.
	Not particularly, right?
	Now, why am I taking you to Paris and resurrecting Placido Domingo and all this kind of stuff, right?
	Actually, the least realistic part is me competently cooking breakfast.
	Actually, I shouldn't say that.
	I'm not too bad.
	But why am I doing all that?
	So...
	You're just in awe.
	So I'm in awe of you, and I don't think about anything else or anyone else.
	Just focus on you.
	I don't know.
	You don't know?
	It blows out the competition on the water.
	I don't know.
	You're impressing me.
	Right?
	Right.
	Well, actually, no, I'm setting you up for disappointment.
	Oh, yeah.
	It's really fundamentally an act of passive aggression.
	Well, because every other date then is going to be disappointing and I'm simply screwing things up for you.
	And I don't just mean with me, with anyone, right?
	I'm disappointing.
	Yeah.
	I'm disappointing everyone else for you.
	You're going to be disappointed in every other date, right?
	Yeah.
	What do you mean we just go to a movie?
	Where's my helicopter, right?
	Yeah.
	And that's kind of how people perceive my dad, too.
	They think he's amazing and awesome, and he's so eloquent, and he's funny, but then, you know, obviously I know the real him, and he's alright, but he definitely has, you know what I mean?
	And I guess I see that, and I don't want to be like him.
	Well, you do and you don't, right?
	Right.
	I mean, if you just didn't, right, then...
	Yeah, because he has good qualities, and I've learned how to be on from him, because he's very good at being on.
	You know what I mean?
	Charismatic.
	But being on is pretending there's no no.
	Right.
	Right.
	Being on is pretending there's no such thing as no.
	How do I change it?
	Well...
	I guess the first question is, does it fit, right?
	I want to give you some narrative that's spun out of my head that doesn't stick to your experience.
	No, it does.
	It does.
	Then you know how to fix it.
	Right?
	You set realistic expectations at the beginning.
	I guess in some areas of life, I don't know.
	No, you do.
	Oh my goodness, you are one slippery eel there.
	You are one slippery post-communist Chernobyl-irradiated eel.
	No, listen, you know exactly, look, you're good at your job.
	Obviously, if you had a meltdown and you're still there, you're excellent at your job, right?
	Realtor, you said, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So you know what is going to be realistic, right?
	You know that.
	I mean, you've been working in this field, I assume, for more than six months, and you're good at your job, you know, right?
	Right, yeah.
	So you know what is realistic, right?
	Now, one of the reasons why it's hard to give people rational constraints, particularly in a field like yours, where you only have a customer for a...
	I guess you've got some longer-term customers.
	You do commercial, is that right?
	No, I do residential, but I have...
	I have certain clients that I... We have people in the witness protection program.
	They sell their house about every four to six months.
	I'm their realtor of choice.
	Obviously, when the aliens find their location, they have to take to the sewers and live in my van.
	I've been doing this for eight years.
	I have lots of clients who refer me business.
	They're friends and they have investment property.
	There's multiple transactions with certain people.
	Okay, okay.
	So, you feel like, so if two realtors are vying for business and one person says, I can get you half a million bucks for your house, another one says, I can get you 600,000 bucks for your house, right?
	People are more likely to go with the 600,000 person, even if the other person could get them half a million, but the 600,000 can only get them 400,000, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So there is a sort of slight tendency, if not a significant tendency, in that kind of business to be tempted with the oversell, right?
	And the oversell, and I know this from the software business, right?
	There's huge and crazy incentives to oversell and overpromise in the software business, particularly for customized software.
	And that will get you money in the short run, but it will...
	Cost you hugely in the long run.
	And I think you're sort of at the tail end of some of that stuff with some of your longer term clients, right?
	Yeah, like I've really in the past year changed that and I've become much more willing to To be more brutally honest, I've switched companies and I have a few people that really kind of...
	Wait, you didn't just tell me that we're having this conversation for no reason, did you?
	No, no, no, no, no.
	That's not what I meant.
	What I meant is it's holding me back.
	Because if you've solved this problem, then I'll move on to the next caller.
	No, I've learned kind of how to be a little bit stronger, but I still find myself not going after certain business because, you know...
	I guess I don't have the confidence yet to be as brutally honest with people.
	Well, again, you're sort of saying brutal.
	That's characterizing it.
	It's just honest, right?
	I mean, it's not brutally honest or whatever.
	People, when they say brutally honest, usually what they mean is that they're going to put someone down and call it honesty.
	But anyway, I think, if I were to guess, right...
	A lack of honesty combined with a feeling of needing to be on usually arises out of a lack of a deep connection as a child.
	A trusted connection.
	I mean your mother died, you were shipped around, Chernobyl happened, right?
	Your dad was working all the time.
	Your brother had his own stuff and he was a kid, right?
	So he's obviously not able to be a father.
	And so I think if you don't have that deep bond, you know, because the question is – and we say this stuff like deep bond.
	Well, what the hell does that even mean?
	You know, is it glue?
	Is it gravity?
	But a deep bond is – for me, the deep bond is I love you for saying no.
	Right?
	That to me is what a bond is.
	Like, you don't need a bond when you're in agreement.
	Right.
	You need a bond when you're in disagreement, right?
	And I sugarcoat like nobody's business.
	I know.
	In fact, you just tried to do it to me about 45 seconds ago by saying, well, no, now I'm able to be honest and that's not a problem, right?
	No, I get it.
	I get what you're playing.
	You're not just telling me.
	You're showing me.
	I understand.
	That's all right.
	But if you don't have a bond...
	Where you can comfortably say no to someone.
	That conditions your life going forward.
	I think in a very fundamental way.
	Which is, I'm going to be rejected if I'm inconvenient.
	What did you say to me about 20 minutes ago?
	You said, I have a lot of memories of just sitting there not wanting to bother anyone.
	Right.
	Right?
	Well, saying no is bothering someone.
	Giving people negative feedback is bothering someone.
	Having a different opinion than someone else and informing them and acting on it is bothering people.
	It is being inconvenient to people, right?
	And the most conformist societies tend to be those with the least pair bonding or attachment bonding with their children.
	Because when you have a very strong attachment and pair bond, you are comfortable saying no to people.
	You're comfortable setting realistic expectations.
	And if you don't have that confident pair bond with someone, that unbreakable bond with a parent, where you can very comfortably say no.
	I mean, I know all this going into parenting.
	No.
	Oh, good.
	I'm so glad my daughter is so comfortable saying no all the time.
	But that's the deal.
	That's what I want.
	That's what I signed up for.
	And I do want her to say no.
	Now she at least sugarcoats it a little bit, right?
	She's like, I say I want to do this.
	And she says, well, I want to do this.
	Now, I'm not saying we have to.
	I'm not saying we have to at all.
	But this is what I want to do.
	And I mean, you know, I mean, it's great.
	I'm glad that she's thrown in the, I'm not saying we have to, because before it was sort of like an absolute, and now she's growing to the point where she knows it's a suggestion.
	But she's incredibly comfortable saying no.
	And to the point where I actually have to sometimes, you know, every couple of months sit down with her and say, listen, you know, I mean, I get that you don't want to do stuff, but we do have to find stuff together that we both want to do.
	It can't just be no, no, no, no, no until I come across something that you want to do.
	We have to work on something we both want to do.
	But that bond where she feels very comfortable saying no to me is really essential.
	It's really essential.
	From everything that you've said to me about growing up, it really sounds like you didn't have that, like you had to not be a bother to people.
	When you are not able to be a bother to people, then it is really hard to say no because you feel like you're going to be abandoned, like people are just going to throw their hands up and not give you any food or not care about you or you're going to get shipped someplace new where you're less of a bother and who knows who the heck is going to be there, right?
	And I think that kind of stuff is really tough.
	So you're constantly...
	Trying to please people, which is to not be there with them in the room as two equal human beings.
	So you try to please people and you try to make them really like you because being liked is the only security that you knew as a child.
	If people liked you, then they would put up with you, right?
	They would spend time with you.
	They'd give you food.
	And if you were an inconvenience, then there would be big problems.
	Right.
	I remember always hiding things from my dad.
	Like, I don't know why.
	I guess because, yeah, I didn't want to bother him.
	And then I just became a teenager who just didn't have anything that I even brought...
	I never even brought friends over because I just didn't want...
	It was easier just to not...
	I didn't feel comfortable knowing whether I was going to have confrontation or my dad was going to be cool with it.
	It was never a consistent...
	And so it was easier just not to bother him.
	You know what I mean?
	I didn't want to come to him with problems because I didn't know if he was going to be sympathetic or go crazy.
	So, yeah, I never really brought...
	It had to get really big or I had to, you know, get caught for him to know stuff about me, like getting caught doing drugs or whatever, you know what I mean?
	Yeah, and so you became inconvenient to other people and it actually deepened your relationship, right?
	So you see the pattern here, right?
	You can't have a deep relationship with anyone if you're not willing to be inconvenient to them.
	Because you're always self-censoring, you're always managing, and to some degree, without the negative connotations, you're always manipulating.
	To have a relationship with someone means to be willing to be inconvenient to them, to disagree with them.
	Because otherwise you're saying either they or you are omniscient.
	And the truth is always a negotiation.
	I mean, any truth more important than I stub my toe, right?
	All truths are a negotiation.
	Which is why in these conversations I don't take a question and then give a monologue.
	I think we're having a conversation, right?
	And that's why I say, does this fit?
	Does it work?
	Right?
	Trying to find out what's going on for you is a conversation.
	And you've disagreed with me, and I've disagreed with you, and that's exactly how it should be.
	If you just say, well, I'm going to defer to everything that Steph says, then you're going to say, well, Steph must be omniscient, which obviously is ridiculous, right?
	And if I'm just going to defer to everything that you say, then I'm going to say, well, you must be omniscient, and that's obviously ridiculous too, right?
	So we have to be humble.
	For both people to be humble, they have to be willing to disagree with each other and stick by what they disagree with until they can sand down something, right?
	It's like stripping furniture.
	Sand down something to get something real.
	Right.
	Right.
	And so with your clients, to have good clients means you have to be willing to disagree with them.
	You have to be willing to be inconvenient to them.
	Upfront, when you meet them, right?
	Is it not true that you have a tough time saying no to people?
	I mean, this is why you want to unfuck guys, right?
	You have a tough time saying no.
	And this is why you end up over...
	Extended, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Because if you're inconvenient to people, what happens?
	I'm going to get fired.
	If I don't please everyone, no one's going to like me.
	I'm not going to have an income.
	I'm going to end up living in a van down by the river on a steady diet of government cheese, right?
	But then I end up overbooking and over-telling.
	No, no, no.
	I get it.
	I get it.
	But anxiety management is not about the long-term.
	That's sort of the point of anxiety management, right?
	It's like smoking is not about your long-term capacity to compete in the Boston Marathon.
	It's about avoiding the discomfort of not having a cigarette right now.
	Right.
	Right?
	Right?
	So, Marina, you're not focusing, obviously, on the long-term.
	That's right.
	That's the challenge, right?
	So to have really great relationships, like if you want to be, I'm serious, an industry leader.
	Breaking through the capacity to be disagreeable to people is the difference between good and great.
	You're good at your job.
	You want to be great.
	You want to be an industry leader.
	Which means that you have to embrace the opposite of your childhood lessons, right?
	Which means that you have to be comfortable, welcome, and accepting of being inconvenient and disagreeable to people.
	How do I get comfortable with that?
	Well, I mean, you have to process more of the uncomfortableness or the discomfort that you experience as a child and recognize some of it was due to people's failures.
	Some of it was due to circumstances.
	Some of it was due to sociopolitical environment.
	Some of it was due to your mom's illness.
	Some of it was due to Chernobyl.
	Big shit was going on in ways that were tragic.
	And people make mistakes.
	And bad mistakes.
	In terms of making you feel wanted, right?
	People should have been focusing on...
	The fact that your mom died, on the fact that there was all this stuff going on that you had to be shipped around, that you were gone for a month and all that.
	I mean, people should have really focused extra muchly on you because of all of that.
	But they didn't.
	So people made mistakes and there was a lot of shit going down that made those mistakes, amplified and amplified those mistakes.
	So that's painful stuff.
	That's horrible stuff.
	That was difficult, lonely stuff.
	You should not have had a childhood where the best you could hope for was to not bother people.
	That's tragic.
	You didn't have a voice you weren't listened to.
	Your thoughts and feelings weren't explored.
	You didn't have intimacy.
	You didn't have connection.
	You were scant on love.
	I mean, you'd even have cuddles, for God's sakes.
	You know, everywhere I sit, my daughter is on my lap.
	Like, I don't know.
	I could be on a horse, and she's like, right there, you know?
	I mean, kids are very, right?
	Very cuddly.
	And I remember that, really wanting that, and I guess that's...
	Yeah, we physically hunger for that.
	You know, kids who don't get that, not you.
	I mean, you got some of it, but kids who don't get that at all, they die.
	I mean, it is necessary for the survival and life of a child, right?
	So you needed all of these things and you deserve them and all of that.
	And let me tell you something.
	Let me tell you something about disagreeableness.
	Mike, if you can look up that study that we had recently about this, I'll just mention it briefly and then you can just read the beginning about the psychologist.
	I posted on Facebook about the psychologist who did the study, the Milgram's type study.
	So there's a psychologist who did a study on...
	Milgram's experiment is from the 60s, a couple of months after the beginning of the Eichmann trial, a Nazi trial.
	He tried to figure out why people just obeyed orders and killed people in Nazi Germany.
	And...
	So he did this experiment where he said, oh, you're going to be participating in a learning experiment, and he basically told people to apply ever-increasing electrical shocks to people they thought they were really shocking, but it was actually just actors.
	A significant portion of people went all the way to, like, where it's openly said fatal dose on the dial, just because people were telling them to.
	And this has been replicated all over the world in various cultures with pretty similar results all the way around.
	There is one type of person who will not do it though.
	There is one type of person who is the least likely to kill on command for no reason in a non-war situation, in a lab, in a psych experiment.
	There's one type of person who will not do it most likely and that type of person is the disagreeable person.
	Right.
	Right.
	Disagreeableness is the basis of ethics.
	Because, I mean, you don't need ethics to go along with the crowd.
	You know, let's go burn the witch!
	Who's with me?
	We're all with you.
	You don't need ethics for any of that shit, right?
	You need the ethics to stand in front of the witch and say, you psychos.
	Yeah, that's how I started feeling since I started listening to you.
	All of a sudden, I care less socially, like with my friends, about disagreeing.
	But I guess professionally, I'm still...
	Like I've barely started, I've barely been out in the last couple of weeks because I just feel like everyone's a zombie out there and I'd much rather talk to, you know, people on FDR or just listen to you and, you know, learn.
	So wait, are you saying that since you listen to the show you have an unfuck list of zero?
	I have an unfuck list of one.
	One, oh!
	Well, that's good.
	I don't even want to know what the rate was beforehand, but all right.
	I mean, I'm not saying you were a conveyor belt or anything, but, you know.
	I was in a 10-year relationship, and that was the fourth person I'd ever slept with.
	And in the last three years, I, well, I ended that relationship, and so I added some...
	Numbers to that.
	But I definitely would have added less had I... I mean, I feel like I was leading them on.
	Maybe we were just kind of snuggling, which I feel like now I was literally just...
	Maybe because I didn't have enough snuggles when I was little.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	It's weird for a guy.
	I get it.
	I mean, you've got unmet childhood needs.
	And you're using your sex appeal to try and get those needs met by adult men who had nothing to do with your unmet childhood needs.
	It's a little unfair, but I can certainly understand it.
	All right.
	So let me just read this.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	And then I tease them when I don't have sex with them, but then every once in a while I do.
	And either way, I kind of feel bad for teasing them, and then I feel terrible because I really didn't mean to have sex with them, and so I'd like to unfuck them.
	Right, right.
	Yeah, well, don't have sex with any guy because he accuses you of teasing.
	They're big boys.
	They can handle themselves literally.
	Anyway, so this guy said – this was just published in the Journal of Personality.
	Those who are described as agreeable conscientious personalities are more likely to follow orders and deliver electric shocks that they believe can harm innocent people, while more contrarian, less agreeable personalities are more likely to refuse to hurt others.
	For an eight-month period, the researchers interviewed – The study participants to gauge their social personality as well as their personal history and political leanings.
	When they matched this data to the participants' behavior during the experiment, a distinct pattern emerged.
	People who were normally friendly followed orders because they didn't want to upset others, while those who were described as unfriendly stuck up for themselves.
	So the...
	The writer of the article said, the irony that a personality disposition normally seen as antisocial, disagreeableness, may actually be linked to pro-social behavior.
	It's so ironic!
	Well, not to a philosopher, it's not, but to these people it's quite surprising.
	This connection seems to arise from a willingness to sacrifice one's popularity a bit to act in a moral and just way towards other people, animals, or the environment at large.
	Perhaps in the end, popularity in the end may be more a sign of social graces and perhaps a desire to fit in than any kind of moral superiority, right?
	So I think that is, you know, join the ranks of the good.
	Be annoying.
	You know, join the ranks of the virtuous.
	Be disagreeable.
	Save human lives.
	Be frustrating to people.
	Yeah.
	And be frustrating...
	To your clients.
	And, you know, those who can't handle the frustration, who are looking, you know, if people want to eat shit, don't invite them to your good restaurant.
	Right?
	I mean, this is the case, like, I constantly want people to leave this conversation.
	Like, not you, not right now, right?
	But I want people to go away.
	Right?
	I do.
	I want people who are like, oh, that's terrible.
	I can't believe you said that.
	Maleficent's not about this.
	I can't believe you look so deep into Frozen.
	It's just a children's film.
	It's like, well, you need to sit at the children's table then.
	And you need to not sit here with the adults.
	Because you, you know, farting, making armpit noises with your hands...
	And, you know, throwing your tapioca at people is not helping the adults have an intelligent conversation.
	So you need to go and sit at the children's table and not sit up here with the big people.
	And this is a constant process.
	You know, kicking people out of this show, banning them from the message board, banning them on YouTube is a constant process.
	It's really important.
	It's really important to get people away who can't handle the conversation.
	I want to be – I don't want those people getting in the way of people who are having adult conversations.
	It doesn't have anything to do with disagreeing with me whatsoever.
	People can agree with me and be a douchebag.
	I'll ban them too, right?
	And they can disagree with me and not be a douchebag, and it's like, hey, fantastic.
	You get first on the call-in show.
	But, you know, the douchebag eject button, you know, I mean, my thumb is red.
	Right?
	Again, I'm not – I don't spend a lot of time doing it.
	It's pretty easy to do.
	But getting people, like, out is so important.
	You know, if you can identify the people who are dying to pee at your pool party in your pool, hey, you know, don't let them in because they're just making everything kind of warm and uncomfortable for everyone else, right?
	Right.
	So, recognize that to be disagreeable is to be responsible, right?
	Our responsibility is to reality, because without being responsible to reality, we can't connect with anyone.
	Trying to connect with people at the expense of reality is desperately harmful to everyone involved, as you know, right, fundamentally and deep down.
	And the reasons why you do it, and the reasons why we're all tempted to do it, is because it threatens the very fragile pseudo-bonds we had as children, right?
	So since I've been disagreeing with my dad much more recently, since listening to you, and starting with my clients a little bit more too, you're saying I need to just keep practicing that?
	Well, you gotta deal with the loss.
	I mean, you had a pretty shitty childhood, right, in a lot of ways.
	And it's also annoying, the shitty childhood, because it's not even like, you know, and then my stepfather set fire to me, you know, and all that kind of stuff, right?
	Right.
	I mean, my dad married some pretty – I had two stepmoms that were pretty crazy, and my current one's not.
	Are you saying like Russian stepmoms?
	I think I've read about some of those in fairy tales, and if memory serves me right, you probably were set on fire a few times.
	Yeah.
	But you had, and there's not a lot of feeling, right, in your explication or your description of your childhood, right?
	Yeah, I was thinking today, I really don't, I have very few memories, very vivid ones, the ones that I do have, but it's very kind of, my dad's barely in any of them.
	And my brother's there in some of them, but...
	I remember asserting myself for the first time in my life when I took piano, I was still there in Russia and the lady used to hit my fingers and I quit.
	One day after months and months of just hating her, hating going there, I just mustered enough courage to go home and not go to piano lessons.
	And my brother was like, you know, home, was taking care of me, asked me why I didn't go.
	And I told him I'm never going back there.
	And I really can't believe I was that young.
	And I stood up for myself.
	And I remember when she called, he told her I was never coming back.
	And that was it.
	I quit piano.
	I can't play piano at all anymore.
	It's like I shut it out of my brain.
	I just don't even know how to read music when I used to be able to.
	But I remember thinking about that.
	And I don't even remember my dad at all asking me about it or...
	Acknowledging it.
	I really don't remember him in that memory whatsoever.
	And I remember calling and texting my dad, my brother earlier, asking if he remembered.
	He hasn't replied yet, but it just dawned on me.
	Like, my dad's not in any of my memories.
	I guess it's not his fault.
	He was on his own, but I guess that...
	What do you mean it's not his fault?
	What do you mean it's not his fault?
	I mean, how the hell do you know?
	You don't even remember.
	See, this is what I mean.
	Be humble.
	You don't know.
	Maybe it was his fault.
	I mean, look, if he was kidnapped and locked in someone's basement for five years, then yeah, it was not his fault.
	But how do you know?
	I guess I don't know.
	Right.
	So this is what I mean.
	Feelings arise from uncertainty.
	As soon as we're certain, we have no feelings fundamentally about that stuff.
	As soon as we're – feelings arrive from ambivalence and uncertainty and so on, right?
	So as soon as you've got an answer, you've just cut your feelings right off, which is why – Not you, right?
	But why people who are emotionally primitive are always so certain about everything?
	And why idiots are certain about everything?
	Again, I'm not putting you in that category, but I'm just saying in this particular instance, you just gave me a solid answer.
	It wasn't his fault.
	No, you're right.
	Based on what?
	You just told me you don't remember much about anything.
	But it wasn't his fault.
	It's like, well, I don't know.
	You don't remember, right?
	Based on having to work and stand in red lines?
	I don't know.
	I really don't remember.
	No, no, no, no.
	Come on.
	Marina, look, if I had to work and stand in bread lines, I would make extra effort to connect with my daughter.
	Yeah.
	Or I'd bring her with me to a bread line so that we could talk.
	No, seriously.
	You know, again, other than the sort of random kidnapping or conscription or whatever, the idea that there was no possible way for my father to spend time connecting with me is, that's not, come on.
	You don't know that.
	No, you're right.
	I had no idea.
	Especially if he married these stepmoms who were not great, right?
	Yeah.
	So, you know, your feelings will come out if you stop bludgeoning them with absolutes that you can't verify.
	Be curious.
	Be curious.
	I don't know.
	Look, I don't know the answer.
	But be curious with your feelings and don't just say, well, it was like this, right?
	I mean, that's That's primitive black and white thinking that it's not going to get you where you want to get to in life.
	If you want to be the best at your profession, if you want to be a really great person who's not living this pinball-like reaction to stress all the time, you have to allow yourself the complexity of ambiguity and doubt, right?
	Yeah.
	Like, just let me give you sort of a tiny example.
	It's a big example for me, but it's like, so when I was 11 or 12, my mom went to Germany.
	I went to a friend of mine's grandparents that I didn't know, and my brother went to England to stay with our relatives.
	I don't know how, gosh, 20 years ago.
	My sister-in-law says, we were talking about this for some reason, my sister-in-law says, well, why didn't you go to England with your brother?
	Kind of makes sense, right?
	I mean, why was I stuck with some friend of mine's grandparents, who I didn't even know, while my brother went to stay with aunts and uncles who I spent a lot of my childhood with?
	Mm-hmm.
	Now, if I'd have said, oh, because of X, right?
	But, you know, I was about to say, well, because...
	And I'm like, well, you know what?
	I don't actually know why.
	And that was the beginning of a pretty big journey towards the sort of heart of my family.
	But our feelings are there to...
	To guide us.
	And if we never think we're lost, then we don't get any instructions, right?
	I mean, I don't pull out a map when I've got a GPS, right?
	Right.
	And if you have answers, your emotions will not give you curiosity.
	They will not activate and give you guidance.
	And then everything will be reactionary after the fact and usually panic-driven.
	But if you have I don't knows, then your emotions fill that vacuum.
	They rush to fill in and to examine and try and explore, which is why humility is really the beginning of wisdom.
	And again, I don't mean to say you're not wise or anything like that, but it really struck me in that particular instance.
	And when you listen to this back, which I hope you will, you'll see that I think pretty clearly that that was just, well, obviously it wasn't his fault at all, right?
	It's like, I don't know.
	Yeah, I mean, I've found myself crying to many of your podcasts with listeners that I didn't think their situation related to me at all, and then you'd say something or they'd say something, and it triggers, and I'm like, why am I feeling emotional right now?
	And so that's kind of what I just kind of figured out by listening to your podcast.
	And how have you felt through this conversation?
	Much better than I expected, actually.
	I was...
	Freaking nervous.
	And I didn't even really know where I was going with this because it's totally different than my original question.
	And I guess it's not even a question.
	It's just girly world of tangents.
	It's the rabbit warren of infinite possibilities.
	And I respect women for that.
	I mean, I think if I spent about eight or nine seconds at a woman's brain, I would go, like, I'd have to institutionalize and hit with horse tranquilizers in the eyeballs or something.
	Because, I mean, I'm amazed at what women can do intellectually.
	I really genuinely am.
	I think it's fantastic.
	I think it would drive me completely mental.
	But I do think it's a fantastic strength for a lot of things.
	What you do is like food for my brain.
	Because it's actually, I find that you do sometimes go on, I don't want to say tangents, but you're just colorful.
	I don't know.
	The way you explain things, it's not as basic as a lot of people, and I like it.
	I think it's more why girls are more attracted to you now that they're finding you and your wisdom.
	Well, I appreciate that.
	Thank you.
	That's very, very kind to hear.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I mean, somebody described Freedom Made Radio's philosophy as performance art, which I think is actually quite honest and true in a lot of ways, which I think is...
	But I'll do anything to keep people engaged in a conversation about truth and history and what matters and what can change people for the better.
	If I've got to do ridiculous, goofy things like talking about the world running on a ball-bearing set of male testicles, fine.
	If that keeps people engaged and entertaining and entertained to the point where they'll – a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down and all, I think that's great.
	Is there anything that we haven't touched on that is...
	I'm not quite sure we had that emotional whatever that sometimes happens to people if there's anything that's missing?
	I don't know.
	I don't know how...
	I guess I'm still unclear on how to...
	The avoidance that I... And the procrastination I do.
	And sometimes it's stuff like doing my taxes.
	It's not like a disappointment of other people's I just seem to have really learned to procrastinate and avoid things that are painful or difficult.
	And I don't know how to break it.
	You know what I mean?
	I mean, besides disappointing people, just avoiding things that are difficult.
	I don't know how to...
	I heard something recently about procrastination, one of your podcasts about procrastination, and it was all about how your parents model lack of commitment or procrastination with connection with their kids.
	I get all that.
	I just don't know how to And I think that's kind of what happened because of my non-connection with my dad.
	How does that translate into not...
	But I keep telling you.
	I keep telling you.
	You keep asking me, how do I do this?
	How do I get to San Francisco?
	Oh, you just take that street over there and go north two kilometers.
	Okay, fine.
	But how do I get to San Francisco?
	Well, that street that I mentioned is just...
	Okay, fine.
	But how do I get to San Francisco?
	Okay, so what are we not connecting on here?
	I guess...
	I need you to point to that street?
	I don't know.
	No, no.
	I've already told you.
	Do you have any memory of me telling you what to do?
	Oh, you're going to love listening to this call back.
	Oh my god.
	You mean just set real expectations?
	That's good.
	I remember him saying something about that.
	Yeah, let's go with that.
	Let's load that up.
	Fire it and see if it hits.
	I'll throw this ball over the fence.
	Maybe I'll hit something.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So you don't remember.
	And it's okay.
	I'm so sorry.
	No, I don't apologize.
	I mean, this is sort of what you're calling about, right?
	So you're demonstrating that we haven't had that.
	Okay, good.
	Well, I'm glad.
	Right?
	Why are you so unemotional about your childhood?
	I don't know.
	Because it's probably why you did the drugs, right?
	Because you can't grieve.
	Sorrow is inconvenient.
	Sadness is unpleasant for a lot of people, and it would threaten the very fragile bonds that you had as a kid, right?
	Is it inconvenient to you?
	I mean, you had a very...
	Your mom died.
	I mean...
	A very sad child.
	I have no memory of her.
	Literally.
	But you know that your mom died, right?
	And the fact that you don't have any memory of her...
	Yeah, you see?
	This is so Russian.
	So you say, well, I have no memory of my mother.
	As if that means you're not supposed to be sad.
	But...
	My father left when I was six months old or a couple of months old.
	I don't even remember him.
	But I still grew up without a father.
	You're trying to tell me because you don't remember your mother that you have nothing to grieve.
	That's even more to grieve.
	Yeah.
	I remember being sad and sad.
	Not knowing, never being prepared for when my period was going to come.
	No, you are going back into mechanical story mode here.
	I guess I didn't...
	I don't know what I'm supposed to grieve except for the fact that...
	Did you not have a sad childhood?
	Everything you've told me is heartbreaking.
	Yeah, I mean, I guess it just, it doesn't feel sad to me.
	It feels blank.
	Which is, I guess, kind of sad when I think about it.
	So, like, what am I supposed to do about that?
	What are you feeling now?
	I'm tearing up a little bit.
	Okay, so tell me.
	You know, I'm here with you.
	I mean, I'm not criticizing.
	I don't know.
	Now I just feel lost.
	Because I don't...
	Like, what am I supposed to...
	No, no.
	Don't disrespect your feelings by trying to anesthetize them with plans.
	Right?
	Well, what am I supposed to do with these feelings?
	No.
	They're not tools.
	They're not things to be used.
	You understand?
	They're you.
	They're your childhood.
	This is your life experience, Marina, right?
	So tell me what you're feeling.
	I don't know.
	I'm crying and I feel emotional all of a sudden.
	I feel sad that something in my childhood just did not give me the skill that Are now just making me be less than I can be, I guess.
	And everyone's telling me that I have so much potential, but then I just feel like a retard.
	No, no.
	You're going back into your story mode.
	This is things you already told me.
	I know.
	So you're taking refuge from your feelings in your stories, right?
	So I was talking about that you had a sad childhood, and that's when you really started to feel sad, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And you had isolation, neglect, loneliness, being bossed around, not being listened to, a succession of stepmothers, your mother not being there, and an all-male environment, right?
	Which is not the easiest thing for a woman to navigate, right?
	Right.
	No mentorship, no guidance from women.
	No connection.
	Yeah.
	You know, for me, I have a memory of a very, very few connections.
	Somebody posted, I can't find it now, but somebody posted on the YouTube channel.
	He said, I have a memory.
	He said, I'm in my 20s now.
	I have a memory.
	Once of talking with my father when he wasn't lecturing me or telling me to do something or asking me to get something or being upset with me about something.
	We were just having a conversation.
	It lasted about 20 to 25 seconds and I was 8 years old.
	And I bet you that guy could remember where he was, what weather it was, how warm it was, what he was wearing.
	A two decade plus relationship with 20 to 25 seconds of relaxed conversation.
	And I remember, I remember, I mean, I wrote about these in my novel, The God of Atheists.
	I remember having, I remember being two or three years old and sitting with my brother.
	We were at a babysitter's because my mom was always trawling for the next man she could Divorce.
	But we were at some babysitters and I guess my brother was four or five and he was explaining the solar system to me with fruit.
	And it was a beautiful night.
	I mean, I remember the moonlight coming in.
	I remember looking at the grape which was the moon and looking at the moon and looking back at the grape and realizing that the grape was the moon.
	And then feeling like I had to hold onto the bed because the whole room, the whole house, the whole street, the whole city, the whole country, the whole world was spinning and moving and wondering why I wasn't dizzy.
	And I remember just this, like, literal flower, fast-forward flower opening of wonder at the universe and feeling love for my brother, which was a wonderful time that we had that night.
	And I remember the next one.
	I don't know.
	I was a teenager.
	It was like 10 years later.
	There was a camp counselor who I couldn't sleep.
	I always had been a light sleeper and I couldn't sleep.
	And I was chatting with him.
	There were no bugs.
	Miraculously, we were looking up at the stars.
	Again, the solar system, the stars, the moon was out.
	And we were just talking in a relaxed manner, just back and forth.
	And I remember him telling me, everyone thinks that Frankenstein...
	Is the monster.
	No, Frankenstein was the doctor.
	Frankenstein was the creator of the monster, not the monster.
	I remember that because, of course, it was my bookmark for understanding my family when I got older.
	And I have just a couple of these, fewer than the stars in the night sky between two buildings.
	A few of these connections where easy conversations occurred.
	Where minds were just shared with no sense of threat, no sense of obligation, no sense of rush, no sense of impatience, no sense of defenses or reactions or crap.
	You know, just human-to-human connection.
	Eyeball-to-eyeball contact without winks and blinks and sand in the sockets.
	And where were those in your childhood?
	I didn't have any of that.
	Yeah, that I can remember.
	I always thought that.
	And the older I got, the more I thought that from...
	Yeah, I see what you're saying.
	Yeah, I don't...
	And now I'm having this weird situation where my dad and my brother and I are...
	My dad and my brother are always fighting and I'm always kind of the middle person and I'm always the psychiatrist who has feelings.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	Don't give me your story.
	Don't give me your story time again.
	We just had over an hour of story time and there's nothing wrong with the story time.
	I get it.
	It gets me the information.
	I don't understand how to just feel and have that connection.
	You know that your voice changes.
	When you leap into this narrative mode, right?
	And you become faster.
	And I bet you a whole sense of self shifts from like your chest and your belly to somewhere up around your eyebrows, right?
	Wow, that was amazing.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	You leap into your head and you start giving me your foreign movie with subtitles to distract me from the hole in your heart.
	It's kind of the size of your heart, right?
	Okay, so let's go back to...
	Where you weren't on, right?
	Okay.
	That was lonely times.
	Isolated times.
	Unconnected times.
	Adrift in space times, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Where you can barely see the world through the keyhole of loneliness, right?
	Yeah.
	So I'm just supposed to feel that and...
	I guess.
	Now you're going back to what to do, right?
	I don't know.
	Yes.
	Yes, you are.
	You're going back to, please save me from my feelings by giving me a plan!
	Right?
	Yeah, I just feel like time is ticking and I'm just...
	Oh no, yeah, because now it's like, oh my goodness, now I'm just being sad and that's not convenient.
	This is somehow what?
	Not supposed to be part of our conversation?
	Yeah.
	No, this is what I'm having the conversation for, right?
	Yeah, it's weird because that's exactly what I know happens is the emotion comes out, but for some reason I wanted you to give me a plan.
	I know you want to give me a plan so you can shut your fucking emotions up and get busy, right?
	Yeah.
	No, but there is no plan other than identity.
	There is no plan other than the self.
	There is no plan Other than connection, right?
	Right.
	So, I should really focus...
	Oh, no.
	Oh my goodness, you can't be trying that on me again.
	You are a relentless doer, right?
	Don't give me any kind of human being.
	I want to be human doing!
	Right?
	Give me a project plan that doesn't involve me having emotions, right?
	It's weird.
	But you feel that leap.
	You want to leap into doing something in order to avoid feeling something, right?
	I guess I feel like I wasted so much time.
	What do you mean?
	I went through a long period of depression, you know, when I was really hitting bottom with my...
	I was doing pain pills and all kinds of...
	Anyway, I just...
	I just feel like I wasted so much time.
	I just want to get my life back on track.
	I mean, I guess it's not...
	Oh, no, no.
	No, you're leaping up to your eyebrows again, right?
	Damn it.
	Okay, stop, stop, stop.
	Do you think this...
	Look, oh my God, you're 34 years old, right?
	Yeah.
	Remember that, right?
	So if you feel like you've wasted time, it's because you haven't been emotionally connected, right?
	So now, you are emotionally connected, right?
	And now you want to stop being emotionally connected because you feel you've wasted time, but the emotional connection is how you don't waste time.
	Oh.
	People who are playing World of Warcraft or doing drugs or doing something else, they're going to some sport, they look back and they say, I wasted time.
	I'm telling you.
	I have not looked back on a single conversation like this and said, I really should have been playing a video game.
	I really wasted time.
	Right?
	The connection is how time is held and magnified and cemented into a memorable and connected history.
	The disconnected time flies by.
	You look back at the disconnected time and you don't really remember much of it, which is why your childhood is so blurred to you, right?
	Yeah.
	The connectedness is how you don't waste time, how your life doesn't slip past you, right?
	You know, most people's lives, do you know what it's like?
	It's like they're in a bullet train And another bullet train goes by the opposite direction at 9 million miles an hour.
	Gone.
	Yeah.
	Because they weren't connected to themselves.
	They weren't connected to others.
	They didn't have the slowdown, the ballast, the anchor, the weight, the substance, the gravity.
	Of solidity, and solidity is connection with the self and with the other, with the truth of your experience.
	Not having plans, not having distractions, not having drugs, not having busy work, not having stress, not having worries, not...
	Connectedness.
	Yeah.
	Actually, that's true.
	Everything but connectedness is procrastination, and it is all designed to avoid connectedness.
	Because with connectedness comes the pain of realizing the disconnectedness, right?
	Yeah.
	But my brain just keeps wanting to figure out how to change that.
	Yeah, no, I get it.
	Your brain is like, oh, shit, what?
	Connectedness?
	Connectedness?
	Ah!
	Right.
	Let's jump out of our skins.
	Let's go racing.
	I want to go dirt biking.
	Let's make some plans, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	But if you are connected with yourself, you will have time for everything else in your life.
	If you are connected with yourself, you will be honest with your clients.
	If you are connected with yourself, you will be honest with the men in your life.
	You end up in situations where it's like I put out for cuddles or whatever, right?
	I don't put out for cuddles, but I sometimes...
	More than just cuddles.
	You know, I'm kidding.
	Yeah, I know.
	But if you are connected with yourself, you won't be on.
	You'll be able to say no.
	You'll be able to take care of yourself better.
	You'll be able to take care of your clients better and your life better.
	And if you are connected, of course, you will have better conversations with friends.
	When you stay connected with friends or with lovers, with boyfriends or a boyfriend...
	Then you will have the kind of feedback that keeps you from making mistakes.
	I mean, how much time did you waste on drug use?
	How much time did you waste on panic?
	How much time did you waste on anxiety?
	How much time did you waste on disconnectedness?
	The only way to catch time is to connect to others.
	Because all that, you will remember.
	Everything else is just a blur.
	Yeah.
	You're right.
	Go on.
	Where did that come from?
	Fuck, I did waste some time not being connected, right?
	I don't know what to do now.
	Go on.
	I guess I'm not supposed to know.
	I'm supposed to feel...
	You're not supposed to know?
	I didn't get what you said.
	What did you say?
	I said, I don't know what to do now, but are you...
	Good!
	Stop doing shit.
	Stop doing stuff, right?
	How's that been working out?
	Being busy.
	So how do I get connected more?
	I didn't mean for that to be a plan.
	I just...
	No, actually, that sounded less plan-y.
	I guess that was neither in the belly nor the eyebrows somewhere around the tit area, is my guess.
	So...
	But tell me...
	What the sadness is first, before I give you any thoughts about that, because I really want to make sure I know to the best I can where you are feeling right now.
	It's weird.
	I can't even...
	I can't put my finger on it.
	I guess I'm sad because I feel myself getting more sad before...
	I guess less sad.
	You know, before I get...
	I feel lost.
	I feel lost because I feel like no one in my life is really...
	I have really deep connections with.
	Right.
	And the few people that I do have glimmers or part-time depths with, they revert back to the shallow end oftentimes.
	And I just feel like it's like a part-time connection even with the people that Right.
	And you obviously, as you have in this conversation, you jump back a little too, right?
	What do you mean?
	Well, you keep...
	So, when you're connected, it's two equals, right?
	You can't have connection without equality.
	Right, so where there is authority, there is not connection.
	And that doesn't mean authority is bad, you know, whatever, but it just means that, right, so when we get connected, you and I, forget about everyone else, when you and I get connected, Marina, the way that you recoil from that connection is to try and put me into a position of authority so that you can break our connection.
	So you say to me, Steph, what do I do?
	Which puts me in a situation or a position of authority and then breaks the connection, right?
	Yeah.
	Wow.
	I didn't realize that.
	Now, that's perfectly appropriate for a child.
	Right.
	Because a child feels security when they know that the parent is in charge and knows what the parent is doing.
	So authority is connection when you're a child.
	But because your need for connection as a child was so hideously unmet and anti-met, you are trying to put me into a situation of authority so that you can feel the security that you needed as a child.
	You needed to feel like people knew what the hell was going on, that you were taken care of, that you didn't have anything to worry about, that everything was going to be okay, and that the parents were in charge and they weren't freaking out about anything, right?
	Yeah.
	That would have made you feel relaxed and taken care of and secure, which is what children need, right?
	Right.
	Which is why, to me, pure egalitarianism with children is not providing children what they need.
	Children need to see competence and security and maturity and confidence modeled in order for them to feel secure.
	So because your need for secure authority was unmet as a child, when we connect, your unmet childhood needs come out and say, Make this guy into a dad so that we can feel that we're drinking deep from the cup of childhood security that was knocked out of our hands every day when we were little.
	Yeah, that's true.
	much though I love to give people what they need I can't I can't because that would be to pretend to you that you could get what you needed as a child I And you can't because you're 34 years old.
	And that would be to tell you, Marina, that you could find some way to deal with your childhood that did not involve grieving for a permanent loss.
	Right?
	I won't become anyone's authority figure.
	Because that would be to deny them the necessity of legitimate grief for irreversible loss.
	And that is frustrating, I know, because if I wanted to be A malicious and exploitive person that I would be providing people all of these instructions and telling them what to do and stepping straight into an authority alter ego from their childhoods and, you know, whatever, right?
	And most people would be pretty defenseless against that.
	But I steadfastly reject and refuse to do that because all dysfunction arises out of the avoidance of legitimate suffering.
	And you will never ever get what you needed as a child when you were a child because you're 34 years old.
	And that needs to be grieved.
	There are lots of people in the world who will pretend to you that they can make that pain go away.
	Whether it's a country, a structure, a cult, or drugs, or whatever, right?
	Or this drug of forgiveness!
	Forgive!
	No, no, no.
	You had a shitty childhood, my darling.
	And that needs the respect of grief.
	Because it can't ever be undone.
	And you will never, ever, ever get what you needed to get as a child, and I am incredibly sorry for that.
	But that is the reality.
	And that is the truth and that's why I can't tell people what to do.
	And that's, I think, why you're crying because I won't give you the relief of being an authority and breaking our connection and pretending that you can get what you needed from me now. why you're crying because I won't give you the relief Now.
	Okay.
	I think you're right.
	Yeah, once in a while.
	Go ahead.
	No, I just don't know what to do with this.
	Good.
	Because you can't do anything with it.
	It is the truth of your experience.
	Not knowing what to do is a lot better than asking me what to do.
	Right?
	That's the truth, right?
	Yeah, I checked myself.
	I almost said it again.
	Yeah, but Steph...
	What do I do?
	Yeah, you can't.
	So, just hang out here?
	I don't know.
	Hang out with my crying.
	Well, let me ask you this.
	Let's say that you and I were sitting next to each other listening to the most beautiful music in the world.
	Your favorite performer Doing your favorite song.
	Yeah.
	And if I turned to you and interrupted you and said, Marina, what do I do with this experience?
	What do I do with this?
	What would you say to me?
	Nothing.
	Just enjoy it or appreciate it for what it is.
	Just...
	This is a breakthrough.
	This is you connecting with something, right?
	That is the opposite of...
	The sort of manic and people-pleasing, and this is you being inconvenient, according to what you think, right?
	Yeah.
	And this is the beautiful and tragic music of your orchestral history.
	And it is real.
	Wouldn't you say?
	I mean...
	I'm not making things up here, right?
	No, I even feel like this call, I feel like inconvenient to the other callers.
	I don't even know how long it's been, but I feel like, you know what I mean?
	I constantly, yeah, I feel inconvenient.
	Right.
	But the tragedy of your history is only inconvenient to the people who failed you.
	It's incredibly essential to you.
	The inconvenience comes from the fact that it's inconvenient to other people for you to feel the tragedy of your history.
	Trust me, it will be inconvenient to other people.
	It's their inconvenience that you're feeling, not yours.
	This is simply an emotional reality for you.
	It's not the only one, and it's not the final one, but it is, right?
	We got through the sister storytelling and all of that, and we got to, right?
	An emotional reality for you.
	And it is a kind of music.
	It is a kind of truth.
	It is A distinct and vivid reality for you that is empirically valid because we know it accords with your actual history, right?
	Yeah.
	And you don't have to be anyone different than who you are in this conversation, right?
	Yeah.
	And it sounds like your mind has quieted down a little bit and...
	Yeah, but I still have this We're always saying, okay, so what now?
	Right, right, right.
	It's like I'm holding a hot potato and I'm like, I don't know, what do I put it?
	What do I do with it?
	You know what I mean?
	Right, right.
	And as you continue to hold that hot potato and realize that it actually goes in where your heart is, right?
	And beats, it gives you life and blood and connection.
	Then, as you go down the process, you will realize that it is essential for you, but inconvenient to people who failed you.
	When you no longer glibly say, well, it wasn't my father's fault at all, but when you actually begin to explore it, it's not going to be convenient to him, right?
	Do I talk to him or my brother?
	I don't...
	I don't think I'm ready to talk to him.
	Yeah, look, I'll tell you this.
	I mean, if this is one of the first times that you've had this kind of connection, then your father and your brother have no problems with you being not you, right?
	They're so focused on themselves, they just...
	Right.
	So bringing this to your family when your family have been heavily committed to you not having this would, I think, be unwise, right?
	Because they obviously are used to and prefer you the other way, right?
	Busy and distracted and story time and rapid-fire speech and no emotional connection.
	That's how they prefer you.
	So if you want to hang on to this, then going to people who prefer you the opposite is not going to help you hang on to that, right?
	Yeah.
	Wow.
	I do have rapid fire speech when I get going.
	Yeah, and it's part of your charisma, and it's part of what is dazzling about you.
	And I don't, like, dazzling in both the good and bad way.
	Like, dazzling as in amazing, and dazzling as in, like, whoa, where am I? What's going on, right?
	I'm blinded, right?
	Yeah.
	That KGB swinging light bulb, sure, it's pretty.
	I don't want to have that effect on people.
	I want to have a real effect on people.
	Yeah, I mean, to be annoyingly precise, if it's real, it's not an effect, right?
	Right, right.
	Yeah.
	But yeah, look, you have a lot of things to be sad about.
	And that's, I think, what I would focus on.
	Now, what you do, I mean, okay, I'll be annoying, give you what you do, right?
	So, I mean, I think therapy is obviously a great idea.
	Write down things from your childhood.
	Write down things that you remember.
	Write down your sense experiences from your childhood.
	Once you give your permission...
	To your memories, to connect with you, they'll, you know, you think you're short of them, it won't be long, you'll have too many, so to speak, right?
	Right.
	Talk about what you remember.
	Maybe I'll ask my mother.
	With yourself, write it down.
	Write it down or talk about it with friends or, you know, just give yourself permission to bore the shit out of people.
	No, really.
	Just say, listen, I've just started really thinking about my childhood.
	I've just been connected with stuff.
	I'd really just like someone to listen and, you know, just lean on people.
	Friendship is supporting people who need your help at the time, in the moment.
	And I'm afraid of giving that to others, but I have a hard time being inconvenient, I guess, for them.
	Right, but you need this, right?
	Right.
	You don't want to – you're 34, right?
	You're only 34.
	I mean you're just a little bit over a third of your way through life.
	You don't want to live in this vacant prison of historical isolation, this disco ball of no certain or warm light.
	You don't want to be that for the next 60 years, right?
	No.
	I'm not saying the way you are or who you've been is terrible or bad, but it's time to evolve on, right?
	Yeah, I feel frustrated with my lack of...
	I mean, I've had a lot of evolution in the last couple of years, but I feel like it's two steps forward, one step back.
	And I feel like I'm not having kids.
	You know, for multiple reasons.
	Obviously, it's a little late, but I don't really want any.
	But I did when I was younger, and I think all of my issues or whatever, like...
	I was responsible enough not to get knocked up.
	Let's just go with that.
	Because I didn't feel responsible enough to take care of myself, barely, let alone a child.
	And obviously I didn't want to just be a teenage mother or any kind of single mom or anything like that.
	Well, also, it would be very painful for you.
	If you weren't prepared for it, I would imagine you'd hit postpartum depression pretty hard.
	If you had a huge amount of unprocessed childhood depression, Sadness.
	But then you were holding a baby.
	I mean, it would all come rushing back and it would be about you, not the baby.
	And it would be very tough, right?
	I mean, it's funny how people say knocked up, right?
	And that's a colloquial way of talking about it.
	But, I mean, the truth is it's creating life.
	I mean, women are literally goddesses.
	I mean, you all can create life.
	You, like, make people who think, you know...
	I think about this every day with my daughter.
	You know, there's no person.
	Now there's a person.
	And she thinks and she tells me about her dreams and she makes these amazing associations and she remembers what happened when she was 18 months old.
	And she, you know, I mean, she just blows my mind.
	And there was like no person there.
	And my wife got big with child.
	And now there is a person.
	I mean, you have this incredible power to create life that thinks and reasons and argues and disagrees.
	And it's funny.
	I mean, I was just passing by and I was passing by to go and do some work and I poked my head in and said, you know, hello and all that.
	And then she turned to my wife and she said, hey, dad just gave me a little bit, a little drop of high, then bye.
	I mean, that sentence would never have existed if my wife didn't push out this giant ball bearing of thought.
	Right?
	Hey, a little drop of hi, then bye.
	I mean, whoever would have said that in the whole world if my daughter hadn't said it, right?
	You said something in another podcast recently that she said, I thought it was brilliant.
	I want to see it on like a bumper sticker.
	When she said, I'm nice to the nice, I'm mean to the mean.
	That was such an awesome sentence.
	Yeah, and I did not teach her that principle.
	And I just thought that's such a simple way to do it.
	It should literally be a bumper sticker.
	Well, it's certainly been my order of operations and all that, but...
	Anyway, so, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's not too late.
	Look, I mean, the fertility argument goes on and on, right?
	But, I mean, basically up to around 40, you're fine, right?
	You've got six years, if you want, right?
	If you want.
	I think I'll be a better stepmother to someone if I end up with a guy that has...
	You don't look...
	Oh, my God.
	First of all, we just talked about humility, right?
	And you don't know that yet.
	Look, if you work on this stuff, you might find that In the heart of your loss and sorrow is an attack of baby rabies, something fierce, right?
	Who knows, right?
	It may be, it may be not.
	You could be a fantastic mother.
	If you've worked through all of this stuff, you'll be a better mother than most because most people have 50% in sadness and deal with nothing of it.
	You have 90% sadness and you might deal with all of it and you might end up far better than the majority in raising children.
	My brother has two boys, and I'm really focused on what I see going on with them, and it's so dysfunctional.
	And I'm trying to intervene, I guess, with, like, little bits of, like, hey, you know, just things I learned from you.
	I try to kind of see them as, like, I don't know, you know, the kids that I never had and, you know, living amongst blind children.
	Crazy people that I want to save you.
	Right, right, right.
	But, you know, I've had nieces, but no substitute for your own.
	I mean, because you just, you can't control the environment or the variables and you're just trying to wag the dock, right?
	I mean, in terms of trying to get better parenting practices across.
	So anyway, I'm just saying it's possible.
	But yeah, I mean, I would definitely work on some John Bradshaw's got great stuff on grief and grieving.
	And there's lots of workbooks.
	Again, if you don't want to go for therapy, which I think obviously would be a great idea.
	And, you know, it's funny because when people hear therapy, they think, oh, I'm broken.
	I need to go get fixed.
	It's like, no, therapy is like if I say to you, you really need professional training, I'm actually admiring your skill.
	Right.
	It's like you really need an Olympic trainer.
	It's not you're a bad athlete, but you're a fantastic athlete.
	So that's the way I sort of view it.
	Go ahead.
	I've been to a little bit of therapy, but it's so hard to find people who just I don't want to roll my eyes at and just walk out the door.
	Right, which is why I sort of say Olympic and all that.
	Yeah.
	Anyway, so listen, I'm really glad we took that bit of extra time because I think that I was definitely not feeling like we had that, you know, that connection that really counts.
	I hugely appreciate your honesty and openness and courage in the call.
	I mean, it's not easy stuff to do, right?
	You've listened to a bunch of calls and you're like, oh, I'm going to, you know, and then you get on the call and it's like, you know, it's always new ground for people, right?
	So you did a fantastic job.
	I hugely appreciate your call in.
	Obviously, I'm going to, on Bended Knee, beg you to keep us posted about how things are going.
	And how are you feeling now?
	I feel...
	I'm sad.
	I'm still crying, but I'm also happy, I guess, in a weird way.
	I mean, smiling.
	Good.
	All right.
	Well, I guess that's it for the night.
	Thanks everyone so much.
	Again, for the callers.
	I'm sorry, sorry for the callers who...
	I'm fully dedicated to each caller, and I'm sorry that that means people get bumped.
	I know people have been waiting for a long time, and we try and do our best.
	To cut short a call is to, I think, waste more people's time than to have it go to conclusion as best we can.
	So thank you, everybody, for your patience.
	Again, to help out the show, FDRURL.com slash donate.
	We're still a little bit below last month in terms of donations, but if you'd like to help out, that's always appreciated.
	Again, we've got employee number three to feed and clothe, and he...
	He only takes liquid gold animus, and it's some European thing.
	But anyway, so obviously that's quite pricey.
	We're still trying to get him to virtual Bitcoin animus, but he doesn't really believe in the gifts that Mike is creating.
	Mike, is there anything that we needed to add to today's show, other than we're doing Schiff Thursday, Friday?
	Yeah, just Thursday morning, Friday morning, 10 a.m.
	Eastern.
	Steph will be doing the Peter Schiff radio show both days, and then we'll pick back up on Saturday night for the Saturday call-in show at 8 p.m.
	Eastern.
	Beautiful.
	Thanks again to the callers and have yourselves a wonderful rest of the week.
	And yeah, if you can share the shift show stuff, it's always good.
	I think when extra people are calling in or listening, we'll do calls in for those shows perhaps.
	But thanks so much, everyone.

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