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June 23, 2014 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

03:34:18

2729 The Dangers of BEING a Sexworker - Saturday Call In Show June 21st, 2014

Stefan Molyneux speaks with a camgirl about the dangers of being a sexworker, childhood origins and making informed decisions with the future in mind. How do you find a life balance when doing world changing work? I want to attend my sister’s wedding, but she invited my abusive mother, what do I do? Also includes, being sex positive, nice guys don’t marry crazy women and sentimentality as control.

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	Hi everybody, Stefan Molyneux from Freedomain Radio.
	Hope you're doing well.
	What a great way to start a show.
	Should we start again?
	No, let's just keep going.
	Hope you're doing well.
	It's a Saturday Night Philosophy Fest from Freedomain Radio.
	Please help out the show at fdurl.com slash donate.
	Mike, what was your favorite donation amount and message this week?
	I'm going to see if I can guess it.
	Did it come in yesterday?
	Oh, you're putting me on the spot.
	Let me pull it up very quickly.
	Very quick.
	Mike is saying, let me pull it out very quickly.
	So for those of you on the webcam feed, you might want to switch to widescreen.
	Well, we did receive a delightful 50 cent donation yesterday.
	50 cents.
	Wait, wait.
	50 cents U.S. dollars.
	So I'd like you to think of that as 50 cents and a half.
	Of which PayPal takes about 49 cents and half a kidney.
	Actually, it's 31 cents, which brings the total to 19 cents.
	I think we're fighting the wrong state.
	It did come with a note, though.
	Yeah, let's enjoy the note.
	The note said, I don't agree with everything you say, but I appreciate the time you dedicate to your research.
	You're making the world a much more thoughtful place, so thanks.
	No, no, sorry, you just read that a little incorrectly, Mike.
	It's not a much more thoughtful place, because a much more thoughtful place would be like 75 cents.
	It actually is just a thoughtful, a more thoughtful place.
	Now, I've got to tell you, as far as compliments go, I mean, first of all, there's the poke in the eye of 50 cents.
	I think that's quite important.
	But what I like is that I don't agree with everything you say, but I appreciate the time you dedicate to your research.
	Now, that is like...
	It's not that I find you very attractive, but I really do appreciate the amount of makeup you have on.
	You try really hard.
	That's nice.
	Clearly, you are looking at a lot of stuff before doing a show, and I just wanted to tell you that I know that you're looking at a lot of stuff before doing a show, and that the show, without that stuffness that you're looking at, would be different.
	That was something quite special to receive, and to that person, If 19 cents is important to you, or 50 cents is important to you, I really feel terrible about taking it from you.
	You know, like, here mister, here's my last 50 cents in the world.
	For all of the research that I'm sure you do, I'm like, wow, please, please take this back.
	This is money that is embarrassing to receive.
	Or, if you have a lot more than that, then...
	I'm sorry, but we can't thank you in the way that we would like to because of non-assault laws.
	Anything else you'd like to add?
	I do want to say for the subscribers out there, we just added some new donator podcasts.
	In the Philosopher Kings section, the $50 a month subscription level, the kings of the show, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you so much.
	You're the people that helped make this thing possible.
	We added two new shows, Accepting Anger, Finding Exploitation, which is a really interesting listener call, and Individualization is Death, a conversation about narcissism and childhood.
	It's pretty interesting, so...
	We await the complicated emails that complain about an anarchy show with kings, but go ahead.
	It's a monarchy.
	Haven't you heard stuff now?
	I haven't.
	Wait, if I haven't heard about it, then clearly I'm not that involved in the monarchy.
	Shouldn't I have heard about it?
	Anyway, go ahead.
	Just the Maleficent Review, King Stephan.
	Come on now.
	Oh yes, that's right.
	That's right.
	Good job.
	And at the $20 a month level, at the gold level, we have Designing Your Life 2, a conversation with a listener where I talk about pretty much how I started working with Free Domain Radio.
	So it was a fun little chat.
	Decide to throw it up there.
	Love your feedback if you do listen to it.
	But yeah, please, all the subscribers out there, you really make this possible.
	Knowing what we can count on every single month is a huge, huge, huge help.
	And we're actually talking to someone right now who's doing some fantastic research.
	But bring him on full-time to help with the show.
	Yeah, and that will be really lots of good research.
	Oh yeah.
	Somebody's just asked, so what's a donation minimum that won't be laughed at?
	Well, zero won't be laughed at at all.
	I mean, we get emails from people who are like, man, I'm sorry, I don't have any money to donate, but I've shared your videos and this and that and the other, to which we say, fantastic, thank you very much, that is wonderful.
	Some people who send in a couple of bucks say, you know, listen, I'm a student, I'm really low on funds, but I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate the show.
	Fantastic, fantastic.
	But if you, I mean, come on, if you're sending 50 cents...
	That is pretty tragic.
	I mean, what it shows is a tragic level of not knowing how you land for other people kind of thing.
	Somebody can absolutely send us 50 cents, and I can be enormously touched by that, but they have to understand and know.
	What they're doing and pretty much they don't seem to know that at all.
	No, no, there's no amount.
	Look, somebody, I don't know, maybe a penny.
	Somebody sent me a penny.
	It's hard to justify that.
	But no, there's no minimum amount.
	It's just kind of funny when you get 50 cents along with a note about how we're making the world a more thoughtful place.
	Apparently 50 cents more thoughtful.
	Yeah.
	Maybe he thinks we're the rapper.
	Maybe he thinks we're the rapper and it's a tribute.
	50 Cent.
	50 Cent more thoughtful.
	Homie.
	50 Cent US. I don't know that 50 Cent, the rapper, gets a lot of passive-aggressive compliments on his research either.
	No, he just gets shot, unfortunately.
	He's not been shot.
	I think he's actually a pretty good business person, right?
	No, he's been shot like a dozen times or some absurd number.
	That's one of his claims to fame.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	This is before he hit it big, but that's where he gets his cred from.
	Oh my god, I'm talking about a rapper and I said the word cred.
	I'm so white.
	I'm sorry, everybody.
	Mike, please donate so Mike can get his grills installed.
	It's very important.
	Very important indeed.
	Alright, enough mindless banter.
	Shall we move on to Madame Le First Caller?
	We shall.
	Sarah wrote to me recently, and she just watched the Dangers of Dating a Sex Worker show, where we talked to a man who was financially supporting a Romanian sex cam worker, and she had some strong reactions to it and wanted to talk to you about it.
	So, go ahead, Sarah.
	Hi, Mr.
	Molyneux.
	Oh, hi.
	How are you doing?
	Wait, wait.
	I'm with you on a first-name basis.
	You're with me on a last-name basis.
	Is that how this is going to work?
	That's really going to make me feel like a headmaster.
	You know, which for some sex worker things could probably be a pretty good scenario, but I don't think we'll be able to play it out today.
	I mean, if you're into that, I don't think you can afford it with your 50-cent donations.
	All right.
	Okay, so what happened to you?
	Yeah, that's totally great.
	What happened to you with the call-in show with the guy a couple of weeks ago, right?
	It bothered you, right?
	Oh, no, I just watched it yesterday, but a quote struck me from that.
	You said, a woman capable of love is not making money having men squirt their cum on her webcam.
	And I also noticed that...
	When you mentioned that she was living with her friends and you asked, oh, well, I hope there aren't any children in the home.
	And she even said, you know, there aren't...
	She goes somewhere else to do her work.
	And I was just sort of wondering what your thoughts are in general about people who work in the sex industry or sexuality for people who aren't married.
	Well, I mean...
	Sexuality and the sex industry, to me, are kind of two things together.
	And I sort of want to separate them.
	I guess first and foremost, I mean, I have no moral problem with the sex industry, right?
	I mean, payment for sex is a voluntary transaction.
	It does not involve the initiation of the use of force.
	It is a free market transaction and therefore is not immoral in any way.
	I just want to put that out.
	Sort of fundamentally.
	And sex itself, outside of marriage, fantastic.
	You know, nobody goes into the Tour de France without pedaling a tricycle once or twice, and the way to...
	To get married to have sex doesn't seem to me to be, you know, it's fine if you want to do it.
	I don't know that it's, you know, particularly wise.
	Only eat at one restaurant.
	How do you know what you like, right?
	So I have no issues with sex before marriage.
	It's fine.
	No issues with sex workers as far as, like, it should never be illegal and there should be as much safety, security, and precautions available to sex workers which are not usually available now because of its illegality and so on.
	So I just want to put that out front.
	The statement that I was making to the guy, and for those who don't know, this is a guy who got involved with a sex scam worker in Romania, ended up shipping her $30,000 for some pretty dubious medical treatments, and thought that she might be capable of loving him, and I don't think that would really be the case.
	And that doesn't mean that sex workers are incapable of love in the long run, but I think that love and financial exploitation and all that kind of stuff, they just don't really go hand in hand.
	So I view sex workers as, for the most part, and this is not the whole story, but I'll throw some stats at you that you're probably fully aware of.
	Most prostitutes have been victimized at some point in their lives by sexual violence.
	This is from the University of Hawaii.
	More than 90% suffer childhood sexual abuse after an incest.
	Many others have been sexually assaulted in the course of working in prostitution.
	And I'm aware that webcam workers are less prone to this kind of stuff.
	About 75% of prostitutes have been violently raped as adults in situations not involving their work.
	At least two-thirds of prostitutes began working in prostitution before the age of 16.
	Young women and men often entered prostitution as a way of escaping an abusive home situation.
	Prostitution is their only means of survival.
	More than half of prostitutes in one study said one or both parents drank to excess.
	More than half had family members who abused drugs regularly.
	51% of prostitutes in one study had a father who battered their mother.
	62% of prostitutes were physically abused as children.
	Two-thirds of prostitutes were sexually abused from the ages of 3 to 16.
	The average age of victimization was 10.
	Two-thirds of prostitutes abused in childhood were molested by natural step or foster fathers.
	10% were sexually abused by strangers.
	More than 90% of prostitutes lost their virginity through sexual assault.
	57% of prostitutes reported being sexually assaulted as children.
	49% reported having been physically assaulted as children.
	And it goes on and on.
	We don't really have to go into all of these.
	So again, it's not that it's immoral to be a prostitute, but I do think that most of the people who are working in the prostitute field, and again, that's not to say all sex workers, are doing so as a result of childhood trauma, and I think it really only replicates are doing so as a result of childhood trauma, and I think it really only replicates and recreates that trauma and I think in many ways exacerbates it by putting So that's sort of my caution and concern.
	But, you know, you are much more of an expert about this than I am, so I'm happy to hear your thoughts.
	With the statistics you cited specifically, what I wonder from that is, did they go into being prostitutes because they were abused, or are Is the abuse and the prostitution both linked to something else, a common factor such as poverty or living in a bad neighborhood?
	I'm just wondering.
	For that to be the case, then these would have to be common to all people who had poverty, like who were in poor, like so for then 90% of women in poverty would have to have lost their virginity through rape.
	And I just, again, I can't even remotely imagine that that would be the case.
	I was just wondering if there was an outside correlation there.
	I'm not as knowledgeable about the actual statistics as you are.
	Well, but tell me what, I mean, forget the statistics.
	I just sort of want to put them out there for general consumption.
	But what are your thoughts and so on with regards to sex workers as a whole?
	I mean, given that this is your gig.
	Well, I personally, I'm a computer science student.
	I've been in a steady, stable, wonderful relationship for a little over three years now.
	And about two or three months ago, I started getting into the webcamming industry.
	And so far, it's been an immensely positive experience on my end, but that might just be because of my views of sex in general.
	I'm very comfortable with my sexuality and my limits of what I'm willing to do and what I'm not willing to do.
	But of course, before I decided to change basically what job I'm doing from working in the food industry to working in the sex industry, I did a lot of research.
	And what I noticed, just based off of anecdotal evidence on forums and things like that, most of the women and a few men who are involved in the webcam industry all really enjoy it.
	It's a lot harder for me to find people who legitimately do not enjoy what they're doing working in the webcam industry, which I don't know how similar that is to prostitution, but it seems to me that...
	Well, I mean, it's not wildly similar in many ways, right?
	Because there's almost no physical danger, right?
	No, you're selling live, customizable pornography.
	You're not selling sex.
	Right.
	I mean, basically you're selling masturbation rather than penetration, right?
	Exactly.
	Something else I wanted to address, though, is your concern for there being children in the home with the dangers of dating a sex worker video.
	I was just wondering why you were concerned about children being in the home if she wasn't even working in the home.
	Oh, I didn't, I mean, I must have missed that when he said that.
	So if, you know, if she's not working in the home, that's fine.
	And if she said that, then I just didn't want necessarily, you know, ride and big boy kind of stuff going on when kids might be in the house.
	Of course.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	No, it's not like, oh my God, if you're a sex worker, you can't be around.
	Like, I don't mean, I don't mean that at all.
	That was, that was a little bit of the impression that it gave off since he did say, oh, she goes somewhere else to work.
	And I was like, wow.
	No, I'm sorry.
	I thought she was doing it in the home, in which case that was a mistake on my part.
	All right.
	So do you mind if I then ask you some questions?
	Sure.
	Go ahead.
	And I assume, of course, that your boyfriend is fully aware of your webcamming.
	Can we call it that?
	Yeah.
	I think that's the most common term for it.
	Yeah.
	We discussed it extensively before I decided to get into it, and he's been fully supportive of everything since we're I'm very careful with issues surrounding, for example, jealousy.
	If he feels sexually neglected, I will skip work for a few days.
	You know, anything to make sure that he's comfortable with what I'm doing as well as my own comfort and safety.
	All right.
	And what was it that do you think got you into this particular idea?
	I mean, as far as getting out of the food industry and into the masturbation industry?
	Well, I mean, there's obviously you're making a lot more money in the food industry.
	I was making a little under nine US dollars an hour.
	With what I currently do, I make over 70 on average.
	So that's obviously a big incentive for students right now.
	My boyfriend is unemployed.
	I'm the breadwinner, so to speak, for now.
	And it's There's a lot more attraction to it just because you can choose your own hours.
	And I never really...
	I never felt bad about it.
	I know a lot of people think, oh, I don't want to go into the webcamming industry because I feel like I'll be used or I'll be less of a person.
	And I never really felt that way about it.
	I did grow up in a very religious home with my parents being very against sex.
	My mom gave me the sex talk for the first time when I was 16 and a half.
	And, you know, everything I learned about sex was either through the internet or through my peers.
	But I never felt as though it would make me less of a human being.
	Right, okay.
	And again, you don't have to answer anything.
	I assume that you're not particularly shy about the internet, if I can make that giant leap of assumption.
	And your first sexual experience was when?
	My first sexual experience, I think I'd had a pretty average sexual experience growing up.
	You know, there was the awkward, fumbling boyfriends in high school where you kiss each other and that's the biggest deal ever.
	And actually, I lost my virginity to the boyfriend that I'm currently with, and so I've explored my sexuality more with him and have become more comfortable with it, mostly with him.
	It's been pretty monogamous.
	Pretty monogamous.
	Well, that sounds like a kettle of fish to be unpacked.
	Pretty monogamous.
	What does that mean?
	It means that we both...
	We've also had extensive conversations about being polyamorous, but neither of us have ever actually acted on that.
	We've been monogamous.
	I've never cheated on him with anyone, and he's never cheated on me, if that's...
	Okay, so you have been monogamous.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And is your boyfriend there or is he around?
	Is there any chance to ask him about his sexual history or anything like that?
	Yeah, I could ask him about a few things if you'd like.
	He's not...
	Is he around?
	Yes, he will be in just a moment.
	Okay.
	Well, I'm just, again, I'm sort of curious.
	So you had no, obviously, no childhood sexual abuse or anything like that, right?
	No, I would say that I was pretty heavily emotionally abused by my stepfather when I was younger.
	And there was some physical abuse, but no sexual abuse, which I'm thankful for.
	It's sad that we live in a world where that's something we have to be thankful for.
	What happened to your biological father?
	He died from a drug overdose when I was much younger.
	I was around eight years old when he died.
	My mom was a teen parent.
	She was 18 when she was a parent?
	No, she was 15 when she gave birth to me.
	Which is funny because she tries to use that as an argument for why I shouldn't be pro-choice.
	She says, if I had been pro-choice, you wouldn't have been born.
	She said, Mom, that's not...
	Well, no, you could have been put up for adoption.
	That's what choice means.
	So my boyfriend is here.
	Did you want to talk to him?
	No, let's do this a bit first, if that's all right.
	And then we'll get into that.
	So basically, your mother would have been the victim of statutory rape.
	Is that right?
	I... I don't believe so.
	I think her boyfriend or my father was either 17 or 18, so it's possible.
	But I'm not exactly sure.
	I didn't know him that much because after my younger sister was born, she's three and a half years younger than me, after she was born, my father left to do more drugs and my mother lived with her parents.
	Your father, was he doing drugs when there were babies around?
	I mean, was he a drug addict through the process of your childhood?
	Yes, he was.
	I should have said that my mother left him shortly after my sister was born.
	So your mother had two children with a drug addict?
	Yes, my mother wasn't the brightest.
	Well, I don't know that that's a matter of intelligence.
	I don't know that intelligence is, you know, once you dip below this level of intelligence, you just stop breeding with drug addicts.
	I don't know that that's sort of an insult to some of the less intelligent but still wise people that I know.
	Okay, so she wasn't very wise.
	She was very young, too, and she was not properly educated about sex.
	No, but that's begging the question, right?
	I mean, that's begging the question, which is why was she having sex with a drug addict when she was 15, right?
	So what was your mom's family like?
	She expressed that she had problems with my grandfather when she was younger, but that he changed when he got older.
	And I've always known my grandfather to be a great man, a very good person at heart.
	I think she was just naturally rebellious.
	She didn't want to listen to what boundaries were put down, and she wasn't informed about a lot of things.
	And my grandmother was a bit of a pushover.
	And so it was, can I go spend the night at my friends?
	And then she would be off partying and having sex and my grandmother would never check up on her.
	Oh, Sarah.
	Oh, Sarah.
	All right.
	Gosh, where do we begin?
	So your...
	Analysis of why your mother had two children with a drug addict who ended up dying from drugs is that your grandfather was a naturally good person and your grandmother was a bit of a pushover.
	But basically your mom was just naturally rebellious and that's how you think it happened.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, that's the problem is I only have small bits and pieces of what she's told me to work with.
	And I don't really have the full picture of what her life was like then.
	Whose life?
	Your mother?
	My mom's.
	Yeah.
	Does that seem like a reasonable theory to you or thesis?
	You know, I'm not really sure because she's obviously changed a lot as a person.
	She decided to work very hard to make a Hopefully better life for me and my sister.
	And she's definitely not the same as she was when she was a teenager.
	So it's hard for me to make that judgment call on who she used to be and why she used to act that way.
	Well, but I assume that you know your grandparents, right?
	Yes, I do.
	And what are your thoughts of them?
	If I had to guess, I would say it's my grandmother's fault.
	She's...
	So incredibly sweet and nice and caring and that's her number one goal in life is to just be the nicest person she can even when it comes to letting kids or you know when she would babysit me letting me do whatever I wanted under her care it was oh you want to just eat candy for dinner well there you go eat as much candy as you'd like it It was hard for her to set boundaries,
	and I think that might have had a big influence on my mother's behavior.
	So your grandmother is too nice, and that's why your mom had a child with two children with a drug addict.
	What sounds reasonable to you?
	Does it sound reasonable to you?
	It does, right?
	It's all that I have to go off of.
	That's all I know.
	That's not...
	Hey, hey, don't be too slippery with me, young lady.
	No, because, I mean, the question is, is that, I didn't say, is that all you have to go on?
	I said, does that sound reasonable to you, that she was too nice and that's why your mom had two kids with a drug addict?
	I guess not, not really.
	Not really.
	I wish I knew more.
	No, my wife is a very nice person, and our daughter is not going to grow up to have two kids at the age of 15.
	But does your wife let your daughter do whatever she wants to do?
	No, but that's not being nice.
	That's not being nice.
	That's being neglectful.
	Right?
	Like, listen, if you were a blind person, and you were about to walk into traffic, and I just took a step back because I didn't want to interfere with Would that be nice?
	Alright, I get what you're saying.
	She was striving to not hurt other people's feelings, but in the process she was neglecting her duties as a mother.
	Striving not to hurt other people's feelings.
	I don't quite follow that.
	Oh, so, okay, so if you want to have candy for dinner and she says that's not really a very healthy choice, let me suggest something else, that would be hurting your feelings?
	I think she feels afraid that that would hurt my feelings.
	But you getting diabetes and cavities, would that not also hurt your feelings?
	You getting 50 pounds extra weight on your body, would that not also hurt your feelings?
	Like, you're painting with a very broad brush, something that needs a lot of detail, I think, which is, what's the family history?
	It needs a lot of detail.
	And it seems like you're giving me A lot of cliches, like a lot of words that don't really mean much.
	Because you're saying that your grandmother was like too nice or a bit of a pushover and this and that and the other.
	Those are not parenting characteristics that are going to result in the disaster of your mother's early life, right?
	Drinking unprotected sex with a drug addict who she leaves.
	And then you said she married a guy who was physically abusive and emotionally abusive.
	Your stepfather, right?
	That's correct.
	That doesn't come from candy for dinner.
	I think a large part of it could also be how fanatically religious my mother and her mother are.
	When I've confronted my mother about How she doesn't stand up for her children and what's best for her children.
	And she tells me things like, well, in the Bible it says that it's the wife's duty to serve her husband.
	And it's incredibly difficult.
	Sorry, is that your mother who says that?
	That's my mother who says that.
	And I know that my grandmother is also very religious.
	So it's possible that they share the same sort of ideas on things like that.
	And did your grandmother...
	Did your grandmother tell you about hell?
	I'm sorry?
	Did your grandmother tell you about hell?
	Or your mother?
	My mother did.
	My grandmother wasn't a big part of my religious education.
	She was just the type who will say things like, oh, Jesus loves you so much.
	Oh, God's so great.
	Just constantly.
	She never specifically went out to lecture me about things.
	My mother would say things like, you will go to hell if you continue liking girls, or you will go to hell if...
	I'm sorry, if you continue liking girls?
	You mean, have lesbian tendencies?
	Yes, I have some lesbian tendencies.
	Now, wait a minute.
	This isn't just stuff you say to the webcam guys, right?
	I mean, is this actually true, or it's just like, yeah, when I was experimenting in college, I did this.
	Right?
	Is this true?
	Yes, it's true.
	I like girls.
	I like girls and boys.
	I feel very lucky.
	I get to appreciate everyone.
	Yeah, I'm not sure I'd put you high on the luck scale given your childhood at the moment, but we'll hopefully keep chatting about that.
	Yeah, because, I mean, the people who are religious and introduce particularly Christianity to children, it's kind of hard for me to think how solicitous they are of other people's feelings because, you know, in telling people, telling kids that they're born with original sin and that they need to accept Jesus or they're burned in hell forever, that's usually not associated with being overly concerned but not hurting other people's feelings, right?
	I think they view it as they're saving you, so in the long run, it's better to...
	Oh, you didn't just tell me that, did you?
	Oh, God, your history is like this mad, fragmented, psychedelic jigsaw puzzle where nothing fits together.
	Welcome to my life.
	I get it.
	I get it.
	That is why, I mean, I hope I find this interesting.
	I find this fascinating.
	I really do, and I appreciate this part of the conversation, but Okay, why did I just, like, I'm just grinding the heels of my hands into my eye sockets here.
	I identify strongly as being atheist.
	I am not religious at all.
	I'm just putting that out there.
	I get that.
	I mean, you're willing to kiss girls and go to hell, which is probably another webcam scenario you've played out at some point or another.
	But, no, why?
	Because you were just telling me that your grandmother would let you eat candy for dinner, Because she wanted to get past the moment.
	No, but you don't notice how illogical it is.
	That's what's troubling me.
	I do notice how illogical it is.
	It's just not something that I can change.
	Okay, so what am I pointing out?
	What am I pointing out that you know so well is so illogical?
	That she is identifying the long-term problem of you going to hell, but not the long-term problem of raising her children incorrectly.
	Well, the long-term problem of candy for dinner and cavities and diabetes and crap like that.
	So when you said she wants to make peace in the moment and she can't think of the long-term kind of stuff, well, that's not true because when it comes to hell, she was all down for that, right?
	I suppose.
	Well, no, don't suppose.
	I mean, you're either right or I'm wrong.
	You're right.
	Okay, so...
	The reason that she said have candy for dinner had nothing to do with the fact that she was not willing to make you emotionally uncomfortable for the sake of a long-term gain, right?
	Because she told you about hell.
	No, it was my mother who told me about hell.
	My grandma was the one who would never really bring that up.
	She was just religious in general.
	Okay, but she obviously introduced religion to your mother and didn't, did she ever contradict your mother and say, no, no, no, the hell thing is not good, not true, it's scary for kids or anything like that?
	Alright, no, she did not say that.
	Okay, so, right.
	Okay.
	And what, how long was your mother separated from your father?
	You said it was when your second, when the second kid came along, and what's the age difference between you?
	Four years.
	About four years.
	Do you have any memories of that time in your life?
	I do.
	I do have some.
	I know for a fact that they were living together before my sister was born and for a little while after.
	And then after that, my mother moved back in with her parents and we lived there for a little while.
	And following that, when I was around Six years old, five or six years old, we moved out to Colorado because my mother couldn't get a job.
	So my grandparents sent her out there to take care of one of our very elderly relatives.
	And so she basically got to live in her house with us and raise us there until she died.
	And out there is where my mom met my stepmother.
	I'm sorry, until the relative died.
	Okay, okay.
	Yeah, and so my mother met my stepfather out there and while they were dating and even after they were married for a little while, my biological father would come and visit my sister and I every month or so, every two months.
	And so he wasn't a big presence in our lives.
	It was, you know, biological daddy and then your new daddy who is here to stay.
	And so it was like a year or two before your mother got remarried?
	Let me see.
	It was...
	She was never married before that.
	It would be the first time she got married.
	Oh, sorry.
	Yeah, before she got married.
	I guess it was like two years.
	It was about two years.
	And do you know how she met your stepdad?
	Funny enough, they were actually both from the same town on the west coast of the United States where I'm from, and they both ended up moving out there without knowing about the other's plan to move, and so they kind of recognized each other, like, oh, you're so-and-so's friend.
	Oh, yeah, that's right.
	And they just started talking because they recognized each other.
	Right, okay.
	And did he have any kids?
	No, he did not.
	Right, right.
	And what were your issues with him when he was your stepdad?
	At first, before they got married, he was a wonderful, wonderful person to be around.
	He was very nice to my sister and I. He was very sweet.
	He would always bring us presents.
	He would take us to the arcade, things like that.
	And I'd say shortly after they got married, he started outwardly expressing his resentment for my sister and I. It was targeted more at me because my sister was younger.
	She was just a toddler.
	There's not much you can do about a toddler, but they both got very incredibly religious.
	So it was things like I could not I could not talk to my friends outside of school.
	I could not listen to music.
	I had very, very strict dress codes.
	I could not wear skirts or dresses or shorts above the knee, things like that.
	But what really got to me was the lack of social interaction.
	And at a pretty young age, especially around middle school, I realized that I couldn't deal with not talking to my peers.
	It was just unbearable to not be able to talk to anyone.
	And so I would sneak ways to be in contact with people.
	I would have a Facebook when I wasn't supposed to have a Facebook, or I would borrow a friend's phone and text people just because I craved interaction so much.
	And I would almost inevitably always get caught.
	And it was very severe punishments for things like that.
	Although it was very severe punishments for anything.
	He was more than just a bit of a control freak.
	For example, we had very specific time frames in which we were allowed to eat, regardless of when we were hungry, and very specific amounts that we were allowed to eat.
	We weren't allowed to eat his food, and we weren't allowed to You know, touch all sorts of things and one day I was very hungry because I was studying up late for a big test and so I snuck as quietly as I could into the kitchen to get a piece of bread and he caught me with the piece of bread and I was grounded for three months.
	I wasn't allowed to talk to other people for three months.
	That's the kind of person that he was and I recognized that that was incredibly bad for my mental health.
	And so I sought positive, you know, associations with other people.
	I had great teachers, especially throughout high school, and I had very good friends.
	So you basically were sentenced to house arrest for a piece of bread?
	Yeah, that's one of many, many examples.
	This guy watched Les Miserables one too many times?
	And what did your mom say about all of this?
	That's where my mom, being a bit of a pushover, comes in.
	She would always disagree with his punishments, but she would never actively stand up for them.
	She would never actively stand up for us, and he would ignore her if she tried to say things like, you know, that's a little bit harsh, maybe we should just change this instead.
	And it would get to the point where he would yell at her Until she changed her mind and would outwardly support what he was doing.
	Right, right, right.
	And how did your sister deal with all of this?
	Did she have the same rules?
	My sister had most of the same rules for a while, but she was...
	For the most part, it was targeted at me specifically because he had a very personal...
	He would take it very, very personally if I did something against the rules.
	And so he, for a while, was focused on me being the one who's actively out to get him.
	He thought that I was intentionally doing things because I hated him, which was not the case.
	You didn't hate him?
	I did hate him, but that's not why I was acting out.
	No, you hated him because he was an oppressive, totalitarian asshole, right?
	That's perfectly correct, yeah.
	Okay.
	I'm sorry, I forgot the question.
	Well, basically, I was just asking if your mom was fine with all of this, and more or less she was, right?
	I mean, she would sort of complain a little bit, but...
	Yeah, my sister's actually, she's having some big problems right now, and this is the first that my mom's ever started to stand up against him.
	My sister's in high school now, and she ran away from home about two weeks ago because she was doing a project with her class, and her teammates chose a song that My parents didn't consider appropriate,
	and so my stepdad felt the need to call her a slut and a whore and tell her that she's terrible and that no one will take her seriously if she dresses like a whore and acts like a whore.
	And she ran away from home because he said that they were going to send her to a summer military camp, which was probably just bluffing, but She hasn't gone home yet and I basically told my mother that they all need to go to family counseling and that's the only thing that might have a chance of helping.
	And did he also call you before?
	When you were there?
	He said some pretty bad things to me too, yeah.
	Like what?
	He would call me ungrateful and selfish.
	He called me a sinner.
	He told me that I would never succeed and that he's never going to help me pay for college, which he hasn't.
	He hasn't given me any money at all for school, which is fine.
	But he said he's never going to help me out because he expects me to be a drug addict like my father and die in a ditch someday.
	So he expects that your future is going to be that you're a drug addict, you're going to die in a ditch, and so on.
	Did he ever call you a whore?
	Did he use sexual pejoratives against you, sexual abuse language?
	Sorry, that sounds the wrong way to put it.
	Verbal abuse language of a sexual content when you were a teenager or at any time when you were living with him?
	He would, but that was not his...
	Go-to insults for me.
	It was more if I wanted a piece of clothing that was more suitable to the weather, such as shorts or a skirt, he would say that I shouldn't dress like a slut, that it's slutty and only sluts dress like that.
	And I never really...
	I always thought, what are you even talking about?
	Everyone wears shorts when it's 90 degrees outside.
	You shouldn't be walking around in pants when it's 90 degrees outside.
	And so I never really thought of myself as trying to act slutty, and so his words always seemed pretty empty and just angry to me.
	But I suppose, yes, he did address me that way.
	Right, right.
	Was he ex-military?
	No, he wasn't.
	He wishes he was, but he's not.
	Right.
	So a failed soldier is even worse, right?
	Yeah, I suppose.
	Yeah.
	He's a construction worker.
	I think he dropped out of high school, but he went back and got his general ed later.
	That was something he always seemed to resent me for.
	I've always been very fascinated by scientific materials, and so I would always be very excited, enthusiastic, coming home from school saying, you know, Mom, Dad, look at this thing I just learned.
	It's Really exciting and he felt that I was showing off and that I was trying to shove it in his face and call him stupid when I was, you know, just a kid who's excited about baking soda and vinegar, making an explosion.
	And it was very discouraging in that kind of environment when he took it very personally.
	Right.
	Yeah, I mean, so the resentment of the underachiever with the person who's got the enthusiasm of youth Oh look, there's a light, let me take a long slow French waiter pee on it so that it kisses and goes out, right?
	Yeah, I suppose that was what he was trying to do.
	It didn't really work because I'm going to college now.
	And I enjoy science still, so he didn't take that from me.
	Right.
	So, what are your thoughts about your mom?
	Bringing this man into your life I I think that she made a very big mistake and she should have gotten her children out of there a Long time ago.
	I think that she should never have Had a kid with him either.
	They they had my younger brother who He's he's a very sweet kid, but he's developing some really horrible tendencies as he gets older He's he's about 10 years old now and He's incredibly bright, but every once in a while, he just echoes things that his dad says.
	He'll say things like, oh, gay people are gross.
	I hope gay people die.
	And it makes me really sad for him that he's thinking that way.
	And I feel like my mother should have recognized that a long time ago and left him.
	Why didn't she?
	What the fuck is your mom doing with her choices?
	If you don't mind me being...
	I assume that you don't mind a bit of salty language.
	But...
	I mean, what the fuck is your mom doing?
	Are there like no nice guys in the known universe that she can...
	I... See, I'm...
	I'm kind of at a loss, too.
	I've tried to figure it out, and I think she felt financially dependent on him.
	I mentioned that she moved to Colorado because she was taking care of the elderly relative.
	But when she died, when the relative died, we couldn't live at her house anymore.
	And so we had to move and at that point my mother was financially dependent on my stepdad and I think she felt indebted to him as though she had an obligation to stay with him and that she was just crazy for thinking that he was treating her and her children badly.
	That's my best guess.
	So she stayed with him to a large degree out of financial interest.
	Possibly.
	She...
	No, no, no.
	You just gave me a theory here.
	If you back away from it, let's find another one.
	But don't give me something and then say, well, not really or possibly or whatever, right?
	Possibly is what I've been saying to begin with.
	It's not concrete, but it's my best guess.
	Do you think it's the most likely possibility, right?
	I think it's that in addition to her feeling incredibly...
	She feels like she can't do anything...
	To act out against him.
	She's expressed to me that she feels powerless.
	No, but why?
	I understand that.
	I understand that.
	But why does she feel powerless?
	She's told me that he doesn't listen to her and that he will yell at her.
	I don't know the extent of any sort of abuse that goes on between them.
	But she seems afraid of him.
	She's afraid of what she does, of what will happen if she doesn't do what he wants.
	And what will happen if she doesn't do what he wants?
	I think that her life will get a lot better.
	No, no, no.
	What's she afraid of that will happen?
	I'm not sure.
	She just recently graduated from nursing school and got a job as a nurse, so she should no longer be financially dependent on him.
	I think she feels in part the financial obligation, a religious obligation, and an emotional obligation to stay with him.
	Yeah, well, I mean, that's tautology, right?
	Why is she with him?
	Because she thinks it's really important to be with him.
	That doesn't really answer anything, right?
	No, it doesn't.
	Why is she with him?
	She feels like she has an obligation to be with him.
	Well, of course, right?
	But I think let's circle back here, because I think this is important.
	I mean, look, don't get me wrong.
	I think everything you're saying is important, but I have to sort of pick my...
	My roads to go down when you give me so much information, which I appreciate.
	So, your mother...
	Your stepfather paid the bills, is that right?
	Your mom stayed home?
	That's correct.
	She did go to a massage therapy school, and she would do massage therapy, but that was not nearly enough to pay the bills.
	No, I get it.
	So she stayed home for the most part, and he paid the bills.
	That's correct.
	And she felt that she had to stay with him because she needed someone to pay the bills.
	Yes, I did.
	I did also mention that they had a kid together, right?
	My youngest brother.
	Yes, you did.
	No, but that's...
	No, that's...
	How long were they married before they had a kid together?
	Maybe three years.
	Yeah, so that's after she had already decided, right?
	Yes.
	That she needed his money.
	She needed his money, right?
	She did need his money, yeah.
	Okay.
	So, do you see any parallels?
	Well, I have seen, you know, the dangers of dating a single mother video, and it's pretty accurate there.
	I don't think my mom likes to think about things.
	She doesn't like to think that she might be doing the wrong thing.
	Oh my goodness, are you not going to answer my question at all?
	Are you going to notice that I'm going to notice that you're not going to answer my question?
	What are the parallels?
	Parallels between what?
	I'm sorry.
	Between you and your mother.
	That we're both doing it for the money?
	Yeah.
	I think the problem is that the difference there is that I am actively enjoying what I'm doing and I could stop at any time and I wouldn't necessarily feel bad about it.
	I made a conscious decision.
	I said parallels, not photocopies, right?
	I didn't say you're exactly the same as your mother.
	I'm saying that you have a template of sex for money.
	You know, that's the funny thing, is I always remember my stepfather just saying the worst and most terrible things about sex.
	Like, my mom would say, oh, honey, you're going to work, can I have a kiss goodbye?
	And he would just make, you know, oh, a disgusted noise, like...
	He would do it out of obligation.
	He was never like, oh, hands all over her.
	He didn't seem particularly sexually attracted to her that I ever noticed as a kid.
	I could have just been oblivious.
	Okay, so basically we were talking about you and your mom and now you're talking about your stepdad, right?
	Well, you said sex for money and so who's she having sex with?
	My stepdad.
	Well, I assume they were having sex, right?
	That's how children are born, yeah.
	Yeah, that's how it works, right?
	Usually.
	So do you think that I decided to go into webcam work because my mother married an abusive man?
	Well, that's sort of a reductio ad absurdum argument.
	In other words, that's not Causal and it doesn't indicate any choice on your part So I think that there's still more to to ask about and I do want to bring the boyfriend in if he's still willing But I just want to ask a couple more questions if you don't mind from yourself Sure, I'll have him come back upstairs.
	All right All right He'll be on his way in a minute.
	Oh, yeah, thanks Did you want to ask me anything else?
	I do I do Do you know anything about your stepfather's childhood?
	I know even less about his childhood than I do about my mother's childhood, so it's regrettably little.
	I am in contact with his parents and they've always been very good grandparents to me and my sister.
	They've been very, you know, Loving and supportive.
	God Almighty, woman.
	Oh my God.
	You know which show you're calling into, right?
	I mean, are you really expecting me to buy this Hallmark bullshit?
	About how wonderful his parents are?
	I mean, come on.
	Come on.
	I mean, who do you think you're talking to here?
	This is Stefan Molyneux, right?
	Yeah.
	So do you think that you're going to be able to sell to me that this sadistic, brutal, This totalitarian asshole was raised by some very nice people.
	You know, that's the thing that I've never really understood is he has an older brother.
	My uncle on my stepfather's side is a very nice person.
	He's a very, you know, pretty normal guy.
	He's never acted the same way that my stepfather has.
	He's not a racist asshole.
	He's not a sexist asshole.
	He's not homophobic.
	Oh, my God.
	Oh, you still don't get it.
	No, no.
	Oh, my gosh.
	Oh, my God.
	I mean, how could you, right?
	I mean, this kind of history.
	All right.
	Would you like me to lay it out for you?
	I suppose if I'm still not getting it.
	I'm going to lay it out for you because you don't know this is normalized for you, right?
	Okay.
	So let's say that your stepfather is my son.
	And let's say I'm a good dad.
	I'm a nice dad.
	I'm a fine dad.
	But he got hit with a brick or had a brain parasite or went into politics or something like that and just became a cosmic asshole, right?
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Let's say...
	Oh, you've got to get this.
	Let's say that my son, Ben, is a cosmic asshole who is in hot pursuit of a woman who is going to give him control over her two children.
	What am I going to say?
	To that woman.
	Run far away and don't come back.
	He's got a brain injury.
	He's an asshole.
	He's got a subdural asshole-matoma.
	So it was selfish and immoral for my grandparents to allow him to...
	Oh my god, you don't give...
	Racist, sexually repressed, weird, brutal, totalitarian assholes care, custody, and control over two young children.
	They should have sky-hooked in with Obama-based drones, hi NSA, and just, like, God, whatever you do, woman, there's no amount of money in the world that is worth this.
	So it's, uh, even though they- And, and, sorry to interrupt.
	Let's say they ran away and got married in the middle of the night, right?
	Then if I knew that my asshole son had control, care, and custody over two children, what would I do?
	You'd do the logical thing and take them away from him.
	I would do everything I could, right?
	I'd be in there, I'd be like, oh my god, woman, you've got to not let her do this, and he's got these tendencies, and for god's sake, don't let him do that, right?
	So even if we grant you your assumption that they're really nice people and somehow produced this monster of a son, they're still not nice people because of what happened to you.
	Just because they directly have been nice to me in my childhood does not mean that they're nice people.
	Do you want me to start again?
	Because I just don't feel you heard anything I just said.
	No, I'm saying that I... They were not nice to you in your childhood because they did not protect you!
	That...
	Okay, that's...
	They did not stand up to your father.
	They didn't say, Dear God in heaven, you cannot do stuff like that.
	You cannot.
	She wanted bread?
	Let her have some goddamn bread.
	The fuck is wrong with you?
	Not you.
	The parents, they have the ultimate authority.
	If they raise this guy and he's around kids and he's a jerk, where the hell was the extended family?
	Where was everyone else?
	Intervening, protecting.
	Why don't they say to your mom, listen, oh my god, you got involved with this crazy offspring of ours?
	I'm so sorry.
	We were out of the country.
	We were on our way to go fight aliens with Sigourney Weaver and we were in a hypersleep.
	We have just returned.
	We were trapped inside a Brian May song about time travel.
	We just got back!
	And we found that this guy now has access and control and care over children!
	God, get out!
	Come live with us!
	That's...
	A very good point.
	They were, because of their inaction, they were not being nice to me.
	And the nice to you is part of the cover.
	It's part of the how you get fucked up.
	Because you can't piece this stuff together, right?
	Well, he's an asshole, but his parents were really nice.
	Well, my mom was like a crazy, irresponsible, sexually promiscuous, with the worst specimen of human being.
	But, gosh, you know, I mean, she was just a bit rebellious.
	My grandmother was a pushover, and my grandfather was really nice.
	You see, you've got no understanding of this stuff.
	You've got these Hallmark cards all stacked around you with your family portrait on it, and you're not looking at any actual human beings.
	Yeah, I guess that has impacted my ability to, you know, rationally think about the actions of people and the implications of what that means that they are.
	Just because they're nice to me does not mean that They weren't nice to you.
	That's what I'm trying to tell you.
	You know they're nice to us, right?
	By nice, I'm meaning they're enabling cover-up.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	By nice to me, I meant, you know, okay, really nice Christmas presents or giving me things or directly, you know, being superficially nice to me.
	That's not...
	Gave you things.
	Oh, you mean like your stepdad gave your mom things like food and shelter?
	Yeah.
	So giving things is like love because your stepfather also gave you food and shelter, right?
	Yes.
	So he must have been nice because he gave you things.
	No, that's not what nice means.
	Okay, so stop telling me that nice is associated with nice Christmas presents.
	Okay.
	Bye.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Alright.
	A lot of laughing over some pretty serious stuff here.
	Why do you think that is?
	Probably a habit.
	I kind of laugh a lot whether or not it's appropriate.
	Right.
	So when I say why are you doing that and you say it's a habit, you know you haven't added anything to my knowledge, right?
	I'm sorry?
	When I say why do you think you're laughing and you say it's a habit, you actually haven't added anything to my knowledge.
	I know it's a habit because you've done it about 30 times since we started talking about this terrible stuff, right?
	But why do you think you laugh about it?
	Because it's really not funny, right?
	Have you read Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein?
	So many years ago that I can just remember him yelling at three secretaries, front!
	That's it.
	That's the only thing I can remember from that book, but go ahead.
	I would highly recommend rereading it.
	Do you remember the plot basis of it, or could I give you a...
	No, go for it.
	So the main character was raised by Martians, essentially.
	He was the offspring of two astronauts on a mission to Mars, and their ship crashed, and so the Martians raised...
	This kid, Mike.
	And so they recovered him when he was an adult and brought him back to Earth.
	And the story is about him learning to be human instead of Martian.
	And throughout the story, a recurring problem is he doesn't understand when it's appropriate to laugh at things until one day they're at the zoo and they see a couple of monkeys.
	They see a monkey bullying another monkey.
	And then the bullied monkey proceeds to go and bully a different monkey.
	And that's when Mike understands that humans laugh because things hurt.
	Okay, no.
	Humans don't laugh because things hurt.
	Some people laugh because it hurts.
	And they laugh in order to pretend it doesn't hurt.
	And they laugh to invite other people to not accept that it hurts.
	So if you want to be honest with me, you need to tell me what hurts and not pretend that it doesn't by laughing.
	Because you are not raised by Martians and you are not a character in a science fiction story, right?
	You are you.
	You are Sarah.
	Yeah.
	And so if you want to do the laughter stuff, then this is not the show for you because you can do that anywhere and people will support you on that and people will giggle and say, oh, wasn't it crazy when or can you believe he did this and ha ha ha.
	This is not the show where we do that, right?
	Because when stuff hurts, then we need to be honest and say, well, that really hurts, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Did you want to ask me anything else or did you want to talk to my boyfriend?
	Yeah, don't go anywhere.
	Yeah, if you can put him on, that would be great.
	Sure.
	Hello.
	Hi, hi.
	Thanks so much for jumping on.
	I hope it's not too startling or weird, but I appreciate you jumping on.
	That's fine.
	Tell me a little bit, and again, nobody knows who the heck you are and all that kind of stuff, but what was your childhood like?
	Because I'm just trying to figure out, and it's interesting to me that if your girlfriend says, I'm going to basically go and help strangers masturbate over the internet, and you're like, sounds legit.
	Yeah, it's good for me.
	I'm just curious what sort of history it was for you growing up.
	That may have ended up in this situation, but go ahead.
	So, I guess I had a pretty standard, unproblematic childhood.
	You know, I come from a middle, slightly upper-middle class family.
	My dad grew up in the...
	He was very poor when he grew up.
	He left home when he was 18...
	Basically, he made his own life.
	He had very little support at all growing up.
	He is now a professional engineer.
	He uses SolidWorks and whatnot to design products, and so he's an extremely logical thinker.
	He's very introverted, much like me.
	I sort of identify a lot with my dad.
	And so growing up, my dad came from the very, I guess, a backwater culture.
	And so he grew up and assumed if your kids are misbehaving and you can't get them to stop, you spank them.
	And so my family had a lot of issues with that.
	My mom grew up from a very similarly background of My grandfather on my mom's side was very poor when he grew up.
	They grew up in, I believe it was LA. When my mom grew up, she came from a very non-violent family.
	Sorry, I just lost my train of thought.
	When my dad's means of childhood education Really did not match up with what my mom thought and obviously what his kids thought.
	And so we would have...
	The first few years of my life where I was able to articulate arguments, I had a very, very rough time because I was constantly arguing with my dad and whatnot.
	But as time went on and I was better able to discuss things with him, Our relationship significantly improved.
	Our family sort of convinced him spanking is not an acceptable means of punishment.
	My dad is a pacifist, but he took that on sort of a larger scale, like no war, no killing sort of thing, not a no violence.
	And his arguments with the family sort of helped him bring his outlook of pacifism down to a more Since then, I've had a great relationship with my parents.
	My mom is benignly insane.
	She is an extreme germaphobe, health nut, and so forth.
	My whole mom's side of the family is, and she's very prone to irrational behavior.
	She's sort of a drama queen, but That's a bit of a gray area.
	In any case, the issues I have with my mom never really had too much of an impact on my childhood.
	I just always sort of knew my mom was crazy and I didn't really take her craziness too much to heart.
	Why did your father, you say he's a very logical man, what logic would your father give for staying with a crazy woman?
	He puts up with it.
	They've had marital problems for a very long time now.
	Um, my dad does not want to break up the family.
	Um, my mom does not want to break up the family.
	Um, I remember in sixth grade, they had an argument when I was in sixth grade, which was about a while ago.
	Let's see.
	That was about 10 years ago or something.
	Um, uh, my, my parents got into a very heated argument.
	Um, my dad started staying with Some family friends for a while, less than a year, I think.
	But it was in a matter of months.
	In that time, I sort of bonded with my dad a little more because he sort of opened his eyes to he needs to maintain his recreational relationship with his kids.
	And so he started playing video games with me and whatnot.
	And he started learning who I was as a person, you know, when I was in sixth grade, and I was also in that process.
	So that was very healthy.
	But I got sidetracked.
	My parents do love each other.
	It's pretty obvious.
	And they really like each other, but they have issues with each other.
	Wait, so sorry.
	So you said that your mother was benignly insane.
	That would not mean that your father couldn't love her, right?
	Correct.
	Denyingly insane is probably a little bit of an exaggeration.
	As I said earlier, she's a health nut.
	She freaks out whenever secondhand smoke comes from the neighbor's house or something like that.
	So she's not like a mental health nut?
	No, no, no.
	Got it.
	So she's like physical health, but insane.
	Okay.
	Yes, yes.
	Yeah, I mean insane in a very, very casual, inaccurate sense.
	Now, what happens when you talk to your mother about her irrational thinking?
	See, that's the problem, is oftentimes she will seem logical.
	Like, for example, I will start talking to her about...
	When she's driving, writing a license plate number down because she can smell the exhaust and it's noticeably bad, but she will try writing the license plate number down of the car as she's driving, which is very unsafe.
	My grandmother has talked to her about it before, and a lot of my family members have, and oftentimes she will recognize it, and she will say yes.
	It's unsafe.
	I shouldn't be doing that, etc., etc.
	But then in the moment, she just gets so caught up in her emotions with it that she ends up being very irrational.
	I recall one time that had occurred and we were stopping at a CVS pharmacy or something.
	And I was telling my mom that it's absurd to yell at people on the road for smoking and throwing their cigarette out the window.
	Like, yes, it's a bad thing, but it's not so much that you should, you know, yell at them on the street.
	You're not going to accomplish anything like that.
	And she was, you know, naturally defending herself because she felt morally offended.
	And in the store, there was someone buying a pack of cigarettes, and she started telling them off.
	Perhaps they were smoking in the store, I don't recall, but she started telling them off.
	And normally, she would not do that, but she...
	She gets very caught up in her thinking.
	She's not a very logical thinker.
	She's a very emotional thinker.
	Okay, first of all, emotional and thinking are not the same thing.
	And getting very caught up in her own thinking, doesn't she just sort of verbally tirade people?
	On occasion, yes.
	But she's usually very passive.
	She takes, I guess you could call it a feminine approach of She will make, you know, underhanded comments at people in trying not to offend them, but trying to point it out.
	You know, she tries to maintain verbal pleasantries as much as she can, but on rare occasions she will lose that restraint.
	Just last night, actually, our neighbors were smoking, and she could smell it in the house when we were having dinner, so she walked outside and just yelled out in the open, you know, Whoever's smoking, please stop.
	The smoke is coming into our house and it's not fair to our family of five and so on and so forth.
	So over the years that you've known her, have you had much luck in getting her to temper some of what you call her insanity?
	To a very small degree.
	My dad has been I'm stalwartly pursuing that as far back as I can remember.
	My parents have always had very, very heavy conversations that have gone on for hours on end, sometimes a little heated, but usually it's a matter of they're trying to work on their communication skills, and my mom just has such a hard time with that.
	And so my attempts are not too observable because they're probably watered down with my My father's constant...
	But she's still pretty crazy, right?
	Yes, she is not nearly...
	Would you say she's getting better or worse over the years?
	She is certainly getting better.
	She's not nearly as bad as I remember.
	And my dad has told me many times that my mom used to be far worse.
	And how their early relationship dynamic worked out, I'm not really sure.
	Perhaps my dad saw that my mom was, her emotions clouded her judgment.
	And what I'm assuming happened is that my dad talked to her a little bit about it way back when, when they were still forming a relationship and my mom showed signs of improvement.
	And so my dad thought, okay, this is a temporary personality trait that he can help her with rather than that you would be stuck with for 20 plus years.
	Okay, good.
	I appreciate that background.
	Now, when Sarah came to you and said she wanted to do sex...
	Videos over the internet.
	What was your thought?
	Our relationships exposure to that kind of media is a little...
	I don't want to say drawn out.
	We've thought about...
	We've discussed that situation hypothetically before it actually became a thing.
	We had discussed how it...
	We had personally gone through the morals that we had seen around it, and, you know, oh, I would feel this way about a partner doing that sort of thing before it actually became serious.
	Okay, sorry, this is too abstract.
	I can't face what you're saying.
	Let me try asking it another way.
	When your mother was younger, how pretty would you say she was?
	I'm not really sure.
	I personally would not find her very pretty, but...
	I don't know.
	She's moderate, you know, not exceptional, not bad.
	She came from a family of three sisters, and so her childhood's culture on appearance was very...
	I would assume it was abnormal, but I'm not really sure.
	Okay, so she's medium-pretty kind of thing, right?
	Yeah, I would say so.
	And when...
	When your girlfriend, when Sarah came to you and said, I want to do webcam sex work, don't give me this whatever you were trying to give me before.
	I had a headache with it and I got lost.
	I totally understood where she was coming from, but I was a little nervous that I would...
	I was fine with it, but I was nervous that...
	Would have an emotional reaction that I did not predict and that has not been the case but um So yes, I was open with it but cautious because I'm aware that that is a frequent source of issues among couples in that situation Okay, okay Well I will tell you what I think the problem is with the sex scam work all right because And this...
	I'm going to pretend to you that we're in the 19th century and that your woman's virtue is your job.
	Okay.
	Okay, so let's just completely throw aside all political correctness.
	And if my girlfriend...
	Sorry, are you interested in marrying Sarah at some point?
	Maybe at some point theoretically...
	Yes, we have a serious relationship.
	Okay, and are you interested in having children?
	That's a very, very tough question.
	It shouldn't be.
	If you have a serious fucking relationship, a serious relationship which involves fucking, I guess, then you should have had this conversation already, right?
	We have.
	We have.
	The answer is no.
	It's not off the table, right?
	Sorry, the answer is no, you don't want to have kids?
	I personally have an interest in raising kids because I feel like I would be a good father, but outside of that, no.
	I feel like I would be able to satisfy that desire to...
	Wait, wait.
	Sorry.
	So you do want to have children?
	I'm not saying that means you're going to have children.
	There is a very strong draw for me to educate children, but I do not think I would want to put in the 20 or so years of obligation.
	I don't think that's for me.
	And does Sarah want to have kids?
	No.
	Okay.
	So then you're not going to have kids if she doesn't want to have kids, right?
	Most likely, no.
	I mean, I'm open to it if she changes her mind later down the road, but, you know, we're in our 20s.
	We're not really in a position to say we're never going to have kids.
	There's always a possibility.
	Well, actually, a woman's fertility starts to decline at around the age of 25.
	But yes, physically speaking, that could be the case.
	But, you know, we might adopt if our minds change down the road.
	But, yeah, I'm...
	I'm aware that a lot of people end up changing their minds about kids later in life, but...
	Okay, so you're open to the possibility that you may at some point want to have kids.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Okay.
	So this is what I would say if my girlfriend...
	I think I've done enough listening now that you won't mind a short speech, right?
	Sure.
	But this is what I would say if my girlfriend came to me and said that she wanted to do webcam sex work.
	I would say, you're aware that screens can be recorded, right?
	Yes.
	Yes, we've already thought about this.
	I mean, she's in computer science, so screencaps is not beyond the realm of possibilities, right?
	Correct.
	We're under the assumption that that's already happened.
	Oh, yeah, and they've been republished and they're available and all this kind of stuff, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So I would say...
	Outside of the emotional issues, outside of the boundary issues, outside of the fucking crazy stalker issues, outside of whatever issues, let's just talk about the realities of screen capture, right?
	Which means that I can't imagine what she's doing on these webcams, but it's enough to make guys squirt their stuff, right?
	So it's probably pretty...
	Hot and sexy and all of the kinds of stuff that would make a gynecologist faint, right?
	It's explicit, yes.
	I wouldn't say it's explicit.
	So you've got publicly available explicit videos which will be there until the end of time, and it is only a matter of time until your girlfriend's full name and address is associated with those.
	And so what that means is that any guy who gets obsessed with her is going to be able to find out where she lives.
	It means that her children, at some point when they're cruising the internet, are going to see young mom doing some sort of god-awful splits and showing people the caverns where they came from, right?
	It also means that potential employers are going to Google her name and are going to find her name and going to go, oh my god, I didn't know she was that flexible and I only now want to hire for one thing, right?
	Yes, that's true.
	Personally, as far as the children go, I'm of the opinion that if kids are properly educated about...
	Oh, no.
	Don't go there.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	Don't go there that watching mommy do porn is a really, really great way to teach kids about sex.
	I mean...
	Oh, no, no, no, no.
	That's not what I meant.
	What I meant was they can...
	I think if kids are properly educated, they can understand it enough to...
	You know, to not be traumatized.
	Understand what?
	Understand what?
	What are they going to understand?
	That mommy did porn for strangers.
	For money.
	You know, sexuality is a part of human beings.
	You know, you wouldn't...
	Shitting is a part of human life, too.
	That doesn't mean I put a fucking webcam up my pooch chute and watch all the snakes come out.
	That's true.
	Right?
	I mean, there's shit that happens biologically.
	That is perfectly fine and natural and healthy.
	It doesn't mean you put it on the fucking internet, right?
	Yes.
	What is she going to say to potential employers?
	That's more of a question for her than me.
	No!
	No!
	We're back in the 19th century, remember, brother?
	Your woman's virtue is your job in this mind experiment, right?
	Yes.
	I would assume...
	So, what is your answer to future employers Googling your wife, finding her name, and finding endless videos of her masturbating, shaking her tits, opening up her labia, spreading her ass cheeks, cheeks or whatever the hell she's doing on camera, and then not getting a job?
	I would probably say it speaks to the employer's morality that they would let something like that interfere with their hiring process.
	But, I mean, assuming that she's being hired for labor such as programming as opposed to public face.
	But, in any case, I would...
	Defend her position by saying...
	No, no.
	I'm asking you.
	Look, you guys know the world that you live in.
	I'm not even going to make the case that in an ideal world, nobody would give a shit, right?
	Yes.
	But this is in the world that we live in, right?
	In the world that we live in, what would you say to the reality that I... Look, I tell you why I wouldn't hire her.
	I'm sure she's very smart.
	She is very smart.
	I'm sure she's very competent.
	She might be a fine programmer.
	But the reason that I would have a tough time hiring her is because co-workers could find the videos, customers could find the videos, potential customers could find the videos, and what's that going to do to her work relationships?
	Yeah, that's going to sour them, certainly, or detract from them.
	How's she going to be as a manager giving performance reviews when people just basically think about her inserting her stilettos into her hoop earrings or something, right?
	Um...
	I don't have a good answer for you.
	You have a point.
	What is your answer to this question now?
	Sorry, could you repeat that?
	What is your answer to this issue now?
	I would say it's an unfortunate downside to getting into it.
	I don't really see that there's a way around it.
	Yes, there's a way around it.
	I mean at this point.
	What is the way around it?
	Not putting that content out to begin with.
	Yeah.
	Yes, it's certainly a downside to getting into it.
	That's why I asked how much luck you'd had intercepting your mom's nuttiness.
	You're saying because I might have received some of that?
	I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
	No, because look, you have a girlfriend who is coming to you saying, I want to make more money by putting my vagina and pixelating my vagina, right?
	Yes.
	And urging men to drop their load on their screen with me on the other side, right?
	That's her plan, right?
	Yes.
	Now, it doesn't take a huge amount of thought To recognize that that is going to have enormously negative long-term consequences for her credibility as an employee, as a mother, as a grandmother.
	This is now forever out there on the planet.
	Yes.
	Hey, Grandma, I found a picture.
	I found some videos of you when you were young.
	Again, we're not really planning on having kids.
	I think if she was...
	Really considering having kids, that would have been a much more heavy factor in the decision behind it.
	No, this is what I'm trying to say.
	You say, well, we're in our early 20s, right?
	How is she going to feel when she's 35 and she's got baby rabies, right?
	And it feels like she wants to have a kid so bad, it's like being hungry all the time or having to pee all the time.
	Yeah.
	You can't make that decision for yourself 13 or 14 years in the future.
	And even if we throw aside the kid stuff, there's the work stuff.
	What if she ever wants to run a company?
	What if she ever wants to get investment?
	What if she ever wants to run for office?
	Close a lot of doors later down the road.
	You think?
	We had sort of anticipated this and accepted it, but there's not really much of a...
	You thought this, okay, great, they'll have her address, they'll have your name, they'll have your married name, they'll have this forever, right?
	Right.
	We're not in positions where we're capable of accurately waiting.
	Yeah, that's a great idea, because waitering is tough.
	I mean, why don't you drop your goddamn expenses?
	Don't rent out your girlfriend's vagina.
	Aren't you taking this money?
	You're unemployed now, right?
	Yeah, I'm between jobs.
	You're unemployed.
	Don't give me your euphemisms here, right?
	Yeah, I am certainly unemployed.
	What I meant by between jobs is I'm searching.
	The last thing we made now is euphemisms, right?
	So you're taking the money that she's making from putting her vagina on display for other men to ejaculate over, right?
	Yes.
	How does that make you feel?
	You're profiting from this, right?
	Yes, I suppose that's accurate, yes.
	No, don't tell me suppose.
	You're a tech guy, right?
	Which means it's kind of binary here.
	She's paying the bills with her publicly rented and future liability vagina, right?
	Yes.
	So you kind of have a conflict of interest here, right?
	Yes, both of us were definitely heavily incentivized by the financial compensation of it.
	That isn't to say that we were blinded from the consequences, but yes, it certainly did.
	Okay, but if you say you're not blinded to the consequences, how are you going to deal with the consequences?
	I'm not saying you seem surprised.
	I'm sure you've thought about all this kind of stuff.
	But for the sake of an extra $60 an hour in the here and now, what is going to happen in the future?
	Um, just a sec, my, uh, Sarah's, uh...
	Oh, she's welcome to, I mean, it's her hooch we're talking about.
	She's welcome to come back in and help you aside if she wants to.
	Sorry, we're using a headset, so I'll pass it off to her.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Hello.
	Hello, hello, hello.
	I didn't quite catch everything that you said to him.
	Like I said, we're sharing a headset, so...
	Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, so...
	Basically, just the two that pop into my mind.
	This is the speech that I would give you, right?
	If you came to me and said, hey, Steph, I've got a great idea.
	Let's pixelate my hoo-hoo for money, right?
	I would say, well, you know, the screen capture software, it's going to be recorded.
	It's going to be put out there.
	There's websites out there dedicated to finding people's names and attaching them to explicit videos.
	And future facial or, I don't know, acidimple recognition technology is going to find you no matter what.
	And so your name, possibly your address, is all going to be associated available for a Google search.
	So anytime you look for work, anytime you want to start a business, anytime you want to get a loan, anytime people are going to Google you, they're going to find...
	you know, dozens or hundreds of incredibly explicit videos of you.
	What's that going to do to your employment prospects?
	What if you want to run for office?
	What if you want to have children?
	Because, you know, it's fine now, you're in your 20s, you don't really think about it.
	But, you know, your biological clock is going to start clamoring pretty loud in your early to mid 30s.
	And you're going to get what's called baby rabies, which is when you just absolutely feel like you have to die, you're dying to have a kid.
	It feels like you got to pee all the time, or you get hungry all the time.
	And then your kids are going to find this or your kids' friends are going to find these videos and say, hey, I found your mom.
	Want to have a look?
	Right?
	And this is going to go on for your kids.
	And then, you know, when you're a grandmother, if you have kids and they have kids, then your grandkids' friends are going to find all this and all this kind of stuff, right?
	So, I mean, just at a pure practical level outside of anything else, the privacy issues and, you know, like monogamy issues and so on, just sort of practical issues...
	It seems to me like you're really burning your future for the sake of some money in the here and now, which seems like a lot of what your mom did by marrying your stepdad.
	I would say that yes, there is a significant risk of being attached, of the pornographic material that I produce being attached to my real information.
	That's always been acknowledged.
	That's why I take more precautions with Giving out information, especially online.
	It's not to say that I'm denying that the possibility could ever happen, but I've always accounted for that risk and it would be best.
	Well, I mean, down to the simplest things of, you know, you don't display daylight through a window when you're camming because people will try to find out where you live or your time zone.
	No, no, no.
	I mean, no, but eventually, right, you know, you're in computer science, right?
	Facial recognition technology is moving ahead.
	And at some point, right, it's just going to scan the Internet and find anything that you have, right?
	Yeah, that's certainly something that's probably going to happen.
	Right.
	So your identity is definitely, I mean, almost certainly going to be exposed.
	And there are websites where people, like, they upload this revenge porn, right?
	They take porn and somebody breaks up, or they have revenge, they have, you know, make up sex, and then they break up with the girl or guy, and they upload it, and then people, there's whole communities dedicated to finding, and the only reason I know about this is I was going to do a radio show about it, but the whole community, they're going to find, right?
	And it's six degrees of separation, right?
	I mean, somebody's going to know somebody who's going to know you, right?
	They get off and outing people in this way, right?
	The thing here is that I'm not ashamed of my occupation, and though it could certainly impact potential employers down the road, I never...
	Will, not could.
	All right, even if it does, that's the thing, is if someone's so detracted by the fact that I have naked photos online that they cannot appreciate my skills and my abilities for what they are.
	Don't downplay what you're doing.
	You don't have naked photos online.
	Oh, I have naked photos online.
	No, no, but you have sexually explicit videos online, right?
	Sure, that too.
	And you know, it's...
	Well, no, that's a little bit more than naked photos, right?
	Yeah, the thing...
	I have all those.
	Right, right.
	So it is...
	I mean, it is...
	Now, whether you're ashamed of it or not is not hugely relevant because you know the world that we live in, right?
	I don't like taxes, right?
	But I recognize that if I don't pay them, I go to jail, right?
	Because that is the world, right?
	That's correct.
	And you live in a world where this is a negative, right?
	Not sex.
	I mean, you don't have to be a prude to not want to look up somebody's echo chamber to their fallopian tube origins, right?
	Oh, that's right.
	And you don't have to be approved.
	I'm not approved when it comes to sexual matters or anything like that.
	I don't think I've, you know, been negative or judgment-y in this kind of stuff, right?
	So I'm not approved when it comes to sexual matters.
	I'd have a tough time hiring somebody who had explicit pornographic videos on the internet because what if I want them to manage?
	What if I want them to go out and see a client?
	What if they get outed and their co-workers are kind of shocked?
	Like, there's just challenges to it, right?
	So you're worried about the society that you live in and what they think, right?
	Of course I am, because I live in that society too, which is why I pay my taxes.
	Are you familiar with the Italian politician who is a well-known porn star?
	Well, this is Italy.
	Berlusconi, he's got model straights all over him.
	Yeah, but the point is...
	If you move to Italy, I guess you can be a porn star.
	Is he male or female?
	She's female.
	She's female.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So maybe you can go to Italy and you can become a politician if you've been a porn star.
	Are you planning to become a politician?
	I'm not planning to become a politician, but that's the sort of thing is where if everyone accepts it and no one is actually bothered by it, if you're in a society that's rapidly changing its views on the acceptance of sexuality, then the types of issues that you're going to encounter when you No, no, no, no.
	Listen, listen, listen.
	You're trying to equate sexuality with webcam masturbation.
	Right?
	You can't just jam those two things together, so to speak, right?
	I mean, you can't just say, you know, tender, intimate, lovemaking between two people who love and respect each other and so on is the same as some guy saying, show me more ass so I can blow my load, right?
	I never said that it was the same thing.
	No, you said society's acceptance of sexuality because you're using the word sexuality in place of or to co-join explicit public pornography.
	Someone being explicit, that's part of that person's sexuality.
	No, no, that's your job.
	And I've said before, I thoroughly enjoy my job.
	Right.
	It's something that...
	But it's not the same...
	Are you saying that it's got the same emotional content as when you make love with your boyfriend?
	No, but that's not what sexual means.
	Sexual is not inherently emotional.
	No, I get that.
	So, I mean, two animals rutting is sexual.
	I get all that.
	Two single-celled organisms having a threesome is sexual.
	I get that.
	I mean, I understand that for sure.
	So you're talking about basically...
	Showing people your sexual goodies, they masturbate to orgasm.
	That is sexual.
	I understand that.
	I absolutely understand that.
	In your definition, though, isn't rape also sexual because it involves orgasm and body parts?
	Yeah, rape is sexual.
	That's why it's rape.
	I'm saying that rape is not inherently emotional.
	This is sort of what I want to tease out, though, which is that you're putting sexuality into a giant big bag and saying, well, all sexuality should be okay, but all sexuality is not okay.
	Child rape is sexuality is not okay.
	Rape is sexuality is not okay, right?
	And again, I'm not trying to put you in the same category.
	Are you familiar with the sex positive movement?
	Not the feminist take on it, but the sex positive movement?
	No.
	Here, I pulled up the wiki page real quick so I can give an accurate description.
	Sex positivity is an attitude towards human sexuality that regards all consensual sexual activities as fundamentally healthy and pleasurable and encourages sexual pleasure and experimentation.
	They advocate sexual education, safe sex, consent, and...
	Of course, that includes things such as, you know, obviously, rape is not consensual.
	Obviously, child pornography or child rape is not consensual or positive.
	Those are things that are objectively true, not up for personal preference.
	Something that would be personal preference would be whether or not you're homosexual or in favor of BDSM being okay.
	The sex-positive movement is...
	You know, sex positive, and that's regardless of whether or not you want to have sex or not.
	I don't understand the last thing, whether you want to have sex or not.
	If the sex positive movement is also...
	They also advocate for...
	Sorry, Nathan's getting up and leaving.
	It's also advocating for reduced stigma for people who choose not to have sex.
	What is the stigma for people who don't want to have sex?
	You mean like the herbivores of Japan?
	The men who don't want to have sex?
	Like the peer pressure associated, particularly in college, with not having sex before you get married.
	There's two sides of the same coin there.
	There are people who believe that you're a prude if you don't have sex and that it's...
	You know, it's a negative for some people, and the sex-positive movement focuses on the individual's level of comfort and safety, not what is right and wrong as a whole.
	Yeah, no, listen, and I'm not arguing with this.
	I said at the very beginning, and I've not changed any of that, I'm not saying there's anything immoral about what you're doing.
	My point with bringing that up, though, is the sex-positive movement generally has been gaining a lot of social ground, particularly as people are moving Away from, well, if my parents are Christian and Christianity says this, then it must be right.
	And the gaining popularity of the LGBT movement, people are starting to reconsider how they feel about certain sexual activities.
	And I'm under no delusion that my current career will never affect me in a negative way and that I won't have to deal with it down the line.
	But I already accepted that, and I decided that it is worth it for me personally.
	I'm not saying it's worth it for everybody.
	Would you do it if you weren't paid?
	See, that's the funny part.
	I guess you could say I'm a little bit of an exhibitionist.
	I do occasionally show off not being paid in an online community, but not to the extent that I do when I am paid.
	Oh, so you do the shows for free, but you also enjoy getting paid?
	No.
	I will post pictures or small GIFs for free because I enjoy the attention or I enjoy the idea of other people seeing me.
	That's very personal.
	Sorry, but we need to be frank, right?
	You enjoy creating sexual arousal in other people.
	I enjoy being an exhibitionist, yes.
	But I would not be a webcam girl full-time if I was not paid.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And is it because you have the urge for orgasm?
	I mean, your boyfriend is unemployed, right?
	And so it's not like he's unavailable to satisfy your sexual urges if you have them, right?
	But these are sexual urges that are not Satisfiable by your boyfriend, right?
	I mean, in other words, you need to do this or you want to do this because it gives you a sense of sexual gratification that your boyfriend doesn't provide, right?
	It's not necessarily a strong need.
	It's, as you said, more of a want.
	No, it's a strong need because you're willing to accept the consequences of posting this stuff, which can be highly negative, and you also Willing to accept those consequences, which you can't actually do on behalf of any possible future children that you have, right?
	Which you don't actually have the right to do, and you don't have the right to decide what your future children are going to find acceptable or not.
	But you know that based upon the trends, you know, seeing mom spread her labia is not going to be a great social enhancement situation for your kids, right?
	I have never wanted kids.
	I understand that I might want kids eventually, but if...
	That's more of a, we'll burn that bridge when we come to it scenario.
	Okay, let's just go with the employment then, right?
	So it's going to be, it could have some negative impact on your employment possibilities and so on, right?
	I mean, you know that people lose jobs if the stuff is found out and so on and all that kind of stuff, right?
	So it must be a pretty strong urge if you're willing to gratify your desire for sexual attention Or sexual gratification outside of your relationship with your boyfriend, right?
	The urge for money is stronger than the need to show off, if that's what you're trying to get from me.
	I don't It's not a particularly strong fetish or kink of mine to be an exhibitionist.
	That's not the only reason that I do it.
	But I do enjoy it.
	When I talk about the money, you tell me that you really like what you're doing.
	When I talk about really like what you're doing, you tell me about the money, right?
	This is a spin me round, right?
	No, I told you the extent that I would do it without the money.
	And I told you What I do because of the money.
	There's a difference there.
	There's a difference in what I'm willing to do.
	It's sort of like having, let's say painting is your hobby.
	You would paint for fun, but you would not paint full time unless someone was paying you to do it because the money is very important in that situation.
	Just because you like something doesn't mean you have to want to make it all encompassing in your life.
	So you're comparing the sex cam worker stuff to painting a painting kind of thing?
	Like it's something that you like, but the fact that you get paid is good, right?
	Yes.
	But you wouldn't do the webcam stuff if you weren't paid.
	You would do the gift stuff and that kind of stuff, right?
	Yes.
	But it's harder to get paid that way.
	Yeah, of course.
	I mean, you've already given out your wares, so to speak, right?
	So you can't usually get paid that way.
	I'd be surprised.
	People pay for very strange things.
	People will pay you.
	People will pay for very strange things.
	Okay, so there is a level of sexual gratification that you're getting from outside of your relationship, right?
	That's correct.
	And so if you go out for a meal, it's because you're hungry, right?
	You don't just have a great meal at home and then say, I'm going out for dinner, right?
	Yes.
	So there's something that's deficient in your relationship with your boyfriend that is sending you to go out for a meal instead of having great food at home.
	I wouldn't say that.
	I'd say that I'm incredibly satisfied and very happy with my sexual relationship with my boyfriend.
	Just because he watches pornography doesn't mean that I'm not good enough for him.
	You can enjoy different things in your sexual life.
	This is another thing that I did want to talk to you, but I know that it has been going on for a while, so if we don't want to get into it, that's okay.
	Polyamory, you know, loving more than one person or having sexual relationships with more than one person while you're in a committed relationship.
	Well, yeah, I mean, I've done a show on polyamory before.
	And look, if you guys don't want to have kids, then the negative consequences, if there are any, are going to accrue to you alone, right?
	And if...
	And look, I understand that, you know, following your bliss, having negative consequences, you know, is not entirely unknown to people of the philosophical bent either, right?
	I mean, Socrates had a nice draft of Hemlock for pursuing philosophy and so on.
	So, I mean, I get all of that.
	I mean, I understand all of that.
	So, yeah, if you don't want to have kids, then, you know, I mean, it's your choice.
	I, you know, I'm sort of concerned that the long-term consequences...
	When you realize them, you know, and I hate to pull the age card, right?
	I mean, I'm probably more than twice as old as you.
	So the long-term consequences may accrue later on in life, and there's no way to unring this bell, right?
	I mean, once the stuff is out there, the stuff is out there forever and ever and ever, and only gets more refined in how easily it can be associated with you and an address and this and that and the other, right?
	So I guess my sort of concern is that the long-term consequences may end up not being something that you're that happy about in the future, right?
	When the money is long gone and all that kind of stuff.
	And I guess that's my point.
	Worst case scenario, I would have to essentially sacrifice my computer science degree and just never go anywhere with it.
	Worst case scenario, I could do this for up until it's time to retire.
	Essentially, because you can make massive amounts of money doing this.
	If I worked more, I could easily make $10,000 a month, but I don't because of going to school.
	Yeah, you could become a sex worker, and I guess because people are into grannies too, right?
	You could do this pretty much.
	And then, you know, you could sell your body to necrophiliacs after you're dead and make money even after you stop breathing, right?
	So this, if you want to sort of go full tilt boogie into this as an occupation, then yeah, you could certainly throw other stuff aside.
	And it's not like anyone in the porn industry has a problem with you being in the porn industry.
	Yeah, the thing is, if that's my worst case scenario, and the worst case scenario is the scenario I'm currently living, I don't think that's Too bad of an idea.
	I don't see myself suddenly becoming morally disgusted with my actions and deciding that I'm unclean and unpure and never want to show myself off ever again.
	I don't see that something being at risk.
	You know that's nothing I've been saying, right?
	Just to be clear.
	No, I know.
	I'm trying to think of something that could make me not want to do this anymore.
	If I didn't want to be a sex cam worker anymore, I could I'm trying to think of what might motivate me to do that, and I don't see that happening.
	I would rather...
	Well, I mean, what it may cost you, right?
	I mean, your boyfriend has as fragmented a sense of personal history as you do in that nothing he says makes sense together.
	Oh, I had a perfectly normal upbringing, probably better than most, but my mother was insane.
	I mean, none of it hangs together.
	So this is a very fragmented sense of history and a very fragmented sense of personal identity.
	And that is always concerning when you're making decisions from a young, traumatized and fragmented sense of identity.
	Making decisions that are going to have an impact on the rest of your life is...
	It's of concern to me, right?
	I mean, what the hell?
	I mean, I'm just some guy on the internet.
	You don't have to give a rat's ass about what I think, right?
	I just want to be really clear.
	I'm no expert.
	I don't diagnose.
	I mean, I'm just telling you my thoughts, right?
	I'm certainly not trying to say I'm right.
	I'm not, right?
	I don't know.
	But I'm just telling you, I'm just sharing my thoughts, right?
	Well, I wouldn't be talking to you if I didn't value your opinion.
	Right, right.
	But it is only my opinion.
	This is not something which is, you know, you haven't gone out and strangled four ducks and a hobo, right?
	So I'm not trying to give you anything like that.
	What I am saying as well, I've got to obviously assume that you're physically very attractive, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so the fact that you grew up, power fucking less.
	Right?
	Power less.
	It is a good feeling to have power.
	It's a fantastic feeling when you grow up powerless to have power over other people.
	Right?
	And in particular, when you have been dominated and slut-shamed by a man to then gain power over men through flaunting your sexuality, it's got to feel pretty fucking good, right?
	Yeah, I suppose it does feel very good.
	I mean, you now, shoes on the other foot, right?
	You're a little Hitler of your youth, right?
	Fucking three months house arrest for a piece of goddamn bread.
	Fuck you, right?
	I got the power now, right?
	Yeah.
	That's a theory a lot of people have about a lot of the BDSM kinks.
	A lot of people think that childhood trauma is why people develop kinks like that.
	Oh, yeah.
	No, I'm aware.
	I've had BDSM conversations.
	We just had one, actually, just recently on the show.
	But I've had them often on over the years.
	I mean, I find sexuality endlessly fascinating.
	I mean, why not?
	It's the only reason we're here.
	It's really good.
	You know, my parents were hugely dysfunctional, but I'm glad that they turned each other on.
	Otherwise, there'd be just a headset floating around this hotel room at the moment.
	But so...
	In terms of a woman who has the gift, and maybe even to some degree the curse, of physical attractiveness, who has had horrible, destructive, abusive relationships imposed upon her by men,
	and to a smaller degree though, like to a smaller degree emotionally, though to a larger degree in reality women, And who's not being able to evoke a positive response from her father or her stepfather, one of whom is dead, the other of whom was like Stalin on a bad day, then to evoke positive reactions from men and to have power over men and control over men and to get men to give her resources?
	I mean, your father gave you nothing but heartache.
	Your stepfather gave you nothing but shame and confinement and beatings, right?
	That's correct.
	You were owed huge amounts of resources from your fathers, which you didn't get.
	And now you're in a position, I dare to say which position, but now you're in a position to get resources from men and to have power over men, where men starved you of resources and hyper-controlled you as a child, right?
	Yes.
	That could be a big part of it.
	I mean, this is the thrill, right?
	This is the thrill of Of having power over people who formerly had power over you.
	Are you saying that you're worried that that feeling will fade away and that I will come to regret my decisions?
	Well, what I'm saying is that if it is driven out of a response from the past, Then, A, you will never satisfy it.
	Because, and this is why I pointed out you laughing about these tragedies earlier, Sarah, is that this will not solve the pain that you experienced as a child from these disastrous fathers that you had.
	Like you almost couldn't design more disastrous father figures and fathers that you had.
	And so if part of this is a way of rushing away from the pain Of having been ignored and brutalized by your fathers, then it will never satisfy you.
	I mean, how well did drugs satisfy your biological father?
	How well did that work out?
	It escalated till he died.
	I'm not saying that's the case necessarily or even approximately with you.
	But what I'm saying is that if you have early trauma, which you do, and not even early, early, mid, late, right?
	I mean, the whole deal, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	If you have early trauma and you try to manage it through some sort of external way, in other words, without feeling the original pain, without going through therapy, without dealing with stuff, then you will gain a temporary liberty, but the risk is a down-the-road enslavement.
	Right?
	So your father, your birth father, your biological father, Sought refuge from the pain of his history through drugs, and they gave him temporary relief, but future enslavement, right?
	Yeah.
	So my concern is that if you're managing the pain of the past, and you will listen back to this conversation, I hope, and you will detect no pain in your tone, despite the fact that you went through unbelievably hellish stuff as a child.
	Well, that's a bit why...
	I love my boyfriend so much as he was incredibly, incredibly supportive and helped me work through so many issues that I did have.
	And I feel like I'm emotionally a much healthier person than I was even a year ago, just thanks to his constant support and Acknowledgement of any issues that I could be having.
	Well, you know, I don't know if it's support or enablement, right?
	Look, if you're so hot that guys are willing to fork over 70 bucks to spooge on a webcam, then he may not be thinking all too clearly himself, right?
	Because the power that you have, the power of sexual attractiveness that you have, which I assume is...
	Akin to a black hole pulling in a dust mite, right?
	You might be surprised at the level of attractiveness most of the women on webcam streaming sites are.
	I'm talking about you.
	I'm not talking about your compatriots, right?
	You already told me you were very sexually attractive.
	I believe you.
	Okay.
	So he may be...
	When men are around very attractive women...
	Oh, I don't need to tell you.
	What do I need to tell you about what it's like to be a sexually attractive woman?
	But you know that men will often just do what that woman wants, right?
	Yes.
	It takes a very strong and secure man to say to a very sexually attractive woman, no, this is not acceptable to me.
	Because you could just pull up stakes, snap your fingers, and another guy is going to want to jump in your bed, right?
	Yeah.
	I'm not saying you would, but you could, right?
	Yes, I could.
	It's like trying to keep someone working in a customer service department who just won the lottery.
	You don't give them a bad performance review because they're like, shit, I'm quitting.
	You won the lottery.
	You are that attractive, right?
	I guess so.
	So the idea that he's going to give you that kind of feedback may not...
	Plus, he's got a financial interest, right?
	I mean, you're making a lot more money Doing this than working in a restaurant?
	We've been together longer than that's been the case, and he's been...
	No, I know.
	I get that, but right now...
	I don't think that the financial situation has changed for him, but I see what you're saying.
	I feel like I know him well enough to where I don't suspect that to be the case at all.
	You don't know him!
	Oh my god!
	No, because if you knew him, he wouldn't try and sell me this incredibly complicated and contradictory story of his history, which when you listen back to it and take notes will drop you.
	It will drop your jaw down to your knees.
	Because if you really knew him, he wouldn't try and tell me, oh yeah, no, I had a pretty natural and normal upbringing, but my mother is benignly insane.
	And not even notice that those two things don't fit together at all.
	If you knew him, you would have...
	When he was telling me his life story, did it make sense to you?
	It did, because I know more of it than what he told you.
	Right, but did it make sense?
	Yes.
	Did you think it would make sense to me?
	Yes.
	Right.
	That's what I mean when I say you still don't know him.
	Because I'm telling you, it doesn't make sense.
	The way that he describes it, and you don't have to trust me, just listen back to it.
	All the things he said that were contradictory.
	My mother is a pacifist who yells at people.
	His mother's not a pacifist.
	He described her as coming from a pacifist family.
	He meant not.
	It was in the context of hitting your children like his father was raised to.
	It was being physically...
	It was pacifism in the context of being physically violent.
	No, I got it.
	I got it.
	I understand that.
	But what I mean is that he was describing this stuff to me as if it all made sense, but most of it was really hard to understand, and a lot of it just didn't hang together at all, and some of it completely opposed itself.
	So what I'm saying is that when you have achieved intimacy, it is when somebody knows the real truth about you, which means you know the real truth about yourself.
	If when you explain yourself to others, your life makes no sense, right?
	And you know that when you were explaining yourself to me, Sarah, what you said, a lot of it was completely contradictory.
	Which I had to sort of point out with your grandparents and And all that, right?
	Yeah.
	So what I mean is that you guys have not achieved intimacy because you haven't challenged each other's propaganda.
	And I don't mean that you've sort of consciously manufactured these stories.
	This is just...
	We're all...
	Most of us are generally lied to about our histories and we just believe what is mostly convenient to other people because we were dependent on them and stuff like that, right?
	But...
	I'm telling you, you have way further to go in terms of intimacy.
	Way further to go.
	If this is you, like after a year of intimacy, where you're still laughing about unbelievable traumas as a child, you have a hell of a lot further to go.
	And because you haven't gone that distance yet, the irreversible decisions that you're making now about the public displays of your sexuality, I believe, are premature.
	In the way that I approach philosophy, Everything is permitted with sufficient self-knowledge.
	Right?
	Don't aim at what to do.
	Aim at how much you know about yourself.
	Okay.
	And you guys have not yet got to the point where you can challenge each other's falsehoods.
	And again, I don't mean conscious lies, just stuff that you've imbibed, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And because you're both protecting your own falsehoods, so you kind of have with your boyfriend a mutual non-aggression principle, right?
	We're both standing in gasoline, so neither of us light a match.
	Which is probably why he wasn't able to challenge you, and you need to be challenged on these decisions.
	I don't know what you should do.
	I don't.
	But I do know...
	of what's going on or what could happen, right?
	Yeah.
	And you can't know what consequences you're willing to live within 20 years.
	I can also tell you that a man who cares for your safety is not going to be wildly keen on you sexually stimulating strangers of unknown mental stability.
	Thank you.
	Right?
	And so, I would argue that if...
	Oh, and also, sorry.
	And if you do ever change your mind when I have kids, there's a whole other sort of set of questions around that.
	But I would not be comfortable taking your hoochie money for my bread and milk.
	And I would say, look, if there's some massive sexual gratification that you need, let's find a way that I can satisfy it.
	Because I can satisfy it without harming your future employment opportunities, without harming any future social caches that your kids might have, without possibly invalidating the value of a degree that you've worked very hard to get, right?
	Yeah.
	There's ways that we can find sexual satisfaction for you without you putting yourself at all these risks.
	Is that going to make us less money?
	Well, sure, but so what?
	Going to school costs you a lot of money, but it's an investment, right?
	But right now, you're getting bucks, and I mean, I get that the work is enjoyable, but I would argue that the work is enjoyable because you've got a lot of anger against men, which is, to me, justifiable, given how you've been treated and how your mom's been treated and the mom The men that your mom chose,
	you got a lot of anger against men, and you've experienced a lot of helplessness and sexual shaming at the hands of your stepfather in particular, and so you get a real high out of controlling them.
	And all of these things, I would argue, I'll shut up in a sec, I promise, let you get the final word.
	I just argue that all these things need to be explored.
	And for sure, you need to connect with your childhood pain before, I would argue, before you make any future decisions, before you go on another webcam session, you need to figure out really deep down what it's for and what's going on.
	Maybe it's all perfectly legit.
	Maybe it's just a kink that you like and all these things.
	But given your history and given your lack of connectedness to your emotional pain of your history, I would absolutely strongly suggest to refrain upon further pursuit of this work until you know for absolute certain you've connected with that pain.
	You've dealt with your anger against men.
	You've dealt with your sense of helplessness and your desire to control men out of retaliation.
	Then, with full self-knowledge, do whatever you want.
	But right now, my concern is that you're going to go down this road, which is going to, like your father with his drugs, is going to give you short-term relief But in the long run, it might trap you in a life you don't want, which is kind of what happened with your dad and his drugs, and there are risks involved.
	So I'll be quiet now, and you can tell me exactly how wrong I am.
	Thank you for your feedback.
	I think I'm kind of getting the vibe that we want to be wrapping this up here.
	No, I don't agree with everything that you say, but...
	I will definitely listen to this all again.
	Thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me and listen through all of our weird issues.
	Well, I appreciate that.
	Thank you very much for your honesty.
	Believe it or not, this is the most you've shown of yourself on the web that is visible from the inside.
	And also, please thank you, boyfriend, for dropping in as well.
	I appreciate his openness with that as well.
	Yeah, of course.
	Thank you so much.
	Thank you.
	Take care.
	Mike, is there anything you wanted to mention before we move on?
	No, I don't have anything to really add.
	I think it speaks for itself.
	Who is next up with the Von Calling bill?
	Alright, up next is Michael.
	And Michael wrote in and wanted to ask you specifically, Steph, how do you deal with self-destructive instincts?
	How do you balance the good of trying to save the world versus the good of taking care of your family?
	How do you avoid going supernova with your virtuous crusade for reason?
	How do you avoid destroying your life like a self-immoliating fireball of reason and fluffy kittens?
	Wow.
	I'd like to see his war game.
	Good questions.
	Good questions.
	I'm not that great at it, honestly.
	We've talked about this quite a bit.
	Yeah, I know.
	It is something to be truly aware of.
	When I first started the show, I was much more optimistic than I am now.
	Now I am much more of a realist than I was.
	So when I first started the show, I thought, well, obviously reason is going to win the day.
	And then what happens is, like most people who really dedicate themselves to freeing the world through rationality, You find that it's a more dangerous sport than you thought.
	And so I'm not super great at it.
	I mean, obviously, you know, I'm cautious in some subjects.
	I avoid other subjects like the plague.
	And I try to win the battle of attrition rather than airstrike, right?
	I mean, so before I thought, oh, I'll just call in the airstrike of reason and, you know, win the day.
	And now I recognize that it's a war of attrition against pitifully and hideously entrenched emotional defenses for the most part.
	People are very smart.
	They're just emotionally defensive and that makes them seem dumb.
	So I've learned a lot over the last seven or so years or six or so years since I went full time on the show.
	I've learned a lot about how to better wage the war of ideas and, At the beginning, I pretty much thought that people had some shame about being incorrect and illogical, but I've since realized that most people double down on idiocy and irrationality to the Roman amphitheater cheers of a bloodthirsty crowd and media.
	So, I wouldn't say that I'm particularly great at it.
	Did you have any more particular Questions about that?
	Well, it's more like what I think I meant was more like keeping a healthy balance between your work and your life, so to speak.
	Like, you know, I guess you take time out of your schedule to exercise and, you know, be a good father to your daughter and Have a good life with your family in general?
	The reason why I'm asking is I come out of a really extremist religious group and I'm really scared of getting too much involved in something that I'm passionate about because I I feel that it might easily consume me because it's like,
	you know, look at all this good I could do for people if I spent every living hour, you know, trying to spread philosophy instead of, you know, trying to build a good life for myself, if that makes sense.
	Right.
	So if you have a gift and a capacity with which to really help people, how do you limit that with yourself, right?
	Yeah.
	No, that's an important question.
	Anyone who's got a shred of conscience and empathy is fully aware of the degree to which they can really help other people.
	Look, the reason that we added a second call-in show, we used to just do two hours a week.
	Now we do six or seven.
	And the reason that we did that is that we just became...
	Increasingly aware of the degree to which this show was, like, just astoundingly helping people, right?
	And these calls, I mean, why do I spend an hour, two hours sometimes with people?
	Because these calls really change people's lives.
	I mean, not every, it depends on the amount of, but, I mean, Mike, we get these follow-up emails and, you know, this really does, is a fork in the road for a lot of people, right?
	Absolutely.
	You know, we get email from people, you know, two months after a call and they go, wow, I really was pushing back hard in that conversation against what you were saying.
	But, you know, looking back at it now, listening to it again, I really realized that X, Y, and Z was going on for me.
	And, you know, even the calls that don't obviously break through...
	People a lot of times follow up with us after the fact and say how helpful it was.
	And also, I mean, all the people listening, I know when I was a fan of the show long before I was helping stuff with it, you know, hearing other people talk about this stuff, it's like, oh my, that's me.
	I have that.
	That's went on in my childhood.
	That's an issue I'm having, and I don't know how to deal with it.
	And just, it's there, and it's there for, you know, hundreds of thousands of people to hear and gain value from.
	And these type of conversations certainly aren't happening.
	Anywhere else that I know of.
	And the ability to do that, I mean, yeah, it's absolutely incredible.
	Yeah, so, I mean, knowing as I do that these conversations, these interactions are bottles of water in a hell of a thirsty desert, you know, why not do 10 hours a day?
	Why not do, you know, because obviously there's burnout and, you know, I do have Part of the show is being a good father and a good husband and a good friend.
	There's no point talking about virtues without practicing them.
	The only reason I think I have credibility is because I really strive to achieve these things in my life as a whole.
	There's no point going on the diet book tour and eating badly so that you can go to more cities and looking terrible and getting fat.
	It doesn't make any sense.
	Part of the credibility is the living of the virtues.
	And if all I'm doing is Trying to bring philosophy to callers or that kind of stuff, then I'm doing too much talking and not enough living, and the talking only really has value because of the living of it.
	So, yeah, so I think it is...
	And there's nobody else who's doing this kind of stuff that I know of, who's really trying to tie all of this stuff together.
	You know, so many thinkers, they have some abstract understanding of something, But they're just not willing to go the distance.
	They're not willing to go to the wall.
	They're not willing to go to the moon and back with their principles.
	And people don't realize that the same physics that lets you catch a ball lets you send a spaceship to the moon and back.
	Yeah.
	And so you get libertarians who are really into the non-aggression principle and then will tell their children about hell and spank them.
	Which means you don't know fuck about the non-aggression principle if that's your approach.
	Yeah, or there are these people who are like, well, you know, we should stop spending money on the war on Iraq so that we can spend more on social programs at home.
	It's like, you don't understand shit about violence if you think that the violence in Iraq is the exact opposite of the moral universe from stealing from the poor and the unborn to bribe voters in the here and now.
	So, most people have this sort of sentimental, emotional, reactive-based stuff to things that they find personally distasteful.
	I'm on the left or I'm on the right, but they won't look at the principle and just extend it, right?
	I mean, all modern and historical morality is theology.
	Reason has almost touched none of it.
	And I mean, I'm working like I have been for 30 years to bring morality into the realm of reason.
	And reason is, by definition of nature, universal.
	And most people love a principle until it hits them emotionally the wrong way.
	And then they abandon the principle, but they don't want to tell themselves they've abandoned the principle.
	And so they get angry at whoever's telling them to stay consistent, right?
	Yeah, right.
	Nobody wants to say, well, I'm really into these ethics, but the moment that they impact on me in some negative way, I wish to abandon them because then that's just called being a poser and frankly a bullshitter.
	And nobody wants to admit that about themselves, right?
	So, you know, the idea that we can have a non-aggression principle which would exclude threats of murder and then we can tell children about hell And people get mad at me for pointing that out.
	Of course, because it's a lot easier to get mad at me than to admit moral hypocrisy.
	When you start threatening children with hell, you're violating the non-aggression principle.
	Sorry.
	And it's actually worse than taxation.
	Taxation you can pay off and it doesn't screw up your conscience.
	Threats of hell for the immorality of being born fucks up your entire identity.
	Right.
	It's the difference between...
	Winston Smith in 1984 before and after the Rat Helmet, right?
	I mean...
	Oh, yeah.
	So...
	Yeah, and people, they get mad about imperialism, and then they want to defend social programs, but they both rely on the initiation of force, right?
	Yeah.
	So, when you recognize that...
	Well, sorry, when I recognize that if it's not for this show and me right now, for all that I can see, people might have to wait another 2,000 years.
	Or 2500 years for someone to come along who's willing to take this stand.
	Because it really hasn't happened much as yet, right?
	And you can see these people, they come on my show, they talk about not spanking, and then they talk about the need for more government programs, right?
	Or you get the people who are against the government programs, but say that you need threats of hell and spanking to take care of your kids or whatever, right?
	Right.
	So, yeah, I mean, it is.
	It's a big responsibility, one that I take very seriously.
	But one which I have to manage.
	You know, it's like if you're a surgeon, there's always somebody who needs surgery, right?
	Always somebody who needs surgery.
	And so when do you sleep?
	Well, it's a challenge.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I just want to commend you on the, you know, amazing effort.
	Yeah.
	And I was very happy to hear today that you're still considered cancer-free.
	Yes, yes, I'm very, if you think you're happy, although I'm actually not, I consider myself cancer free.
	I can actually consider myself cancer free before chemo and there's never been any indication after I had the tumor removed.
	I mean they were lymphoma cells, so they were blood-based cells, so they might have escaped and gone elsewhere, but there's never been any indication in any of my scans Since I had the tumor removed, that it's anywhere else in my body.
	I consider myself cancer-free.
	I felt that the chemo was a good precaution, although I understand it is itself a carcinogen, but I didn't go in there with any concern, like zero, not even a bit.
	I just knew everything was going to be fine.
	I appreciate that and I'm trying to, you know, I sort of refuse to let myself feel like I'm living on borrowed time.
	You know, the important thing is to relax into an illness diagnosis like that so that you can live even longer.
	But I appreciate that.
	And again, I know I haven't given you much of an answer other than you need to live the values.
	That comes first.
	All proselytizing comes after the self-empiricism of integrity.
	And if you try and shift those around, You get exhausted and fail, which is the worst combination.
	Yeah, I think that's a big part of my struggle because I really want to help people get the same revelation.
	It's not the right word here.
	Illumination is probably the way to put it.
	And it does feel like a revelation when your brain has unconsciously created all of these Plugs and wires, and then someone comes along, snaps their fingers, and plugs them all in.
	It does feel like a revelation, though it's latently, it's always been there, but it feels like a revelation, but it happens in the moment, I think.
	So yeah, just keep living your values, and whatever comes out of that, I think will work out really well.
	And if you're not living your values, then it doesn't matter really what you say.
	You're just going to discredit everything that you believe in.
	But if you're living your values, I think that everything that comes out of that is worthwhile.
	Thank you very much.
	Great question.
	I wish I could give you some clear answers.
	Mike, who do we have next?
	Alright, up next is Savannah.
	Savannah called in, or wrote in I should say, and said, my younger sister would like me to attend her baby shower as well as be a bridesmaid in her upcoming wedding in which my mother, whom I've defoode from two years ago, will be present at both.
	Do I miss out on these important memories in order to take a stand, or is there a way to be a bigger person and show up and just handle the situation?
	Oh man, don't you just hate philosophy?
	Oh my god.
	Savannah, tell me how much you hate it.
	I didn't catch what you said.
	Do I hate what?
	Don't you just hate philosophy?
	Sometimes, yes.
	All these god-awful situations.
	Absolutely.
	I don't know what to do.
	Plug me back in.
	I want that illusory steak right now.
	Well, first of all, this is a joke I can't get out of my head just because I think it's really funny for no reason in particular.
	Remember, if somebody hands you a baby, say, no thanks, I'm a vegetarian.
	But...
	So, give me a bit of a history as to what happened with your mom and all that.
	Okay.
	I hate to be lengthy.
	I do have a history of about four or five years ago.
	Four or five years ago, I was married and really depressed, and I was drinking a lot, and my family was concerned about me, and I feel, unfortunately, instead of talking to me about it, they got together and they did an intervention.
	And I was a foster parent at the time.
	And so I had two foster children.
	Actually, I had just adopted one of them.
	And...
	So they did an intervention and they made things worse than they were.
	So like things that were innocent such as bug bites on my arm became injection marks or just things like that.
	So they thought that things were a lot worse.
	Oh, so they went way beyond the drinking stuff, right?
	Yeah, they thought it was much worse instead of talking to me about it.
	So they said if I didn't go to treatment right then...
	They hired an interventionalist to fly me out like right then and take me to treatment for five weeks.
	So I did that and then I ended up in a program because I am licensed with the state.
	If they find out anything like that, then you have to go through a program with them.
	And so I was going through the state board program where I got checked I did urine drug tests and things like that.
	And because I was a foster parent, CPS was involved and wasn't allowed to adopt the other child that I had been raising for two years.
	So my sister ended up adopting him.
	Sorry, I'm so nervous.
	No, no, it's fine.
	You're doing great.
	So anyways, after all that, I graduated the program with the state board, and that was three years long, and I guess that was a big problem to my mother.
	And so it's really crazy.
	My mom has mental health problems, and she does not get adequate treatment.
	I mean, when she does go to treatment, she only tells the therapist snippets of the truth, so it's kind of easy to lead the therapist, I think.
	And so...
	Oh, hang on a sec.
	Sorry.
	Just because when people say mental health problems, I always get a bit concerned about what they really mean.
	Because, look, if you say, look, my mom got leukemia, that's a physical health problem.
	Yes.
	But if your mom's kind of a bitch, that's not a mental health problem.
	I'm not saying she is.
	I'm just saying that I'm never really sure with mental health what people mean.
	Like, so if somebody gets a railway spike driven through their head, then they have a brain problem, right?
	Yeah.
	No, that makes sense.
	So tell me what you sort of mean by that, if you could?
	Well, she's just never been well as long as I can remember, and I don't know what her diagnosis is.
	Well, you're back to giving me, I don't know whether this is medical or personality, right?
	Okay, well, I do think she's the most narcissistic person I've ever met.
	Okay, see, now we're starting to talk about, you know, what I can sort of understand.
	Okay, good.
	Okay, so just about anything that is done with our children reflects back on her, and everything, like, circles back.
	Except bad things.
	Well, they reflect back on her, yes, and then she's shamed of us, so I have a history of being very overweight.
	No, no, no, if she's, sorry, if she's shamed, if she's ashamed of you, then she's not, it's not reflecting back on her.
	Right.
	If you said, well, when we do things that are bad or whatever, then she's ashamed of her parenting, right?
	Then that would be it bouncing back on her, right?
	If she's just ashamed of you, then it's not bouncing back on her.
	She's avoiding it by blaming you, right?
	Probably.
	A silly example is my brother was walking in a restaurant one time and he tripped and she goes, I can't believe you did that.
	How embarrassing for me.
	And it's like, what?
	I don't know.
	So that was just an example for actually verbalizing what I've been feeling for so long.
	And I was very overweight as a child and a teenager.
	And I feel like she was...
	Why were you overweight as a child?
	Obviously overeating, but I don't know the...
	Well, who was buying your food?
	My father.
	My mother was restricting my food.
	They divorced when I was six, I believe.
	Oh, so you restricted food at your mother's, but your father would fatten you up kind of thing?
	Yes.
	Right.
	I mean, I was extremely restrictive with my mother, and she would do things like lock me outside until I exercised adequately and...
	Which basically means that it's nothing to do with parenting.
	It's just entirely to do with the child, right?
	Your problem is you're not exercising.
	I'm going to lock you outside until you do the right thing.
	Not like, why are you overeating at your father's house?
	What was the divorce like for you, right?
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	And she went through a lot of husbands quickly.
	She's on number five now.
	Like cannibal.
	I know.
	Sometimes we'd have them with white wine sauce and fava beans.
	Right?
	I mean, it just sounds like, you know, the buffet of husband heads.
	Or something like that.
	Try the eyes.
	They're jelly-licious.
	Anyway.
	No, yeah.
	I know that sounds weird.
	But, I mean, there was a brief period of time where she, like, just was married over and over again.
	And she's been with her fifth husband for a while now.
	Fifth husband?
	But anyway, so about two years ago...
	Sorry, sorry.
	Oh, go ahead.
	Just as you were, we're going to move on.
	So fifth husband, has she ever asked you what it was like for you having so many men running through your life?
	No.
	Okay.
	I think that's all I need to know as far as her personality goes.
	Okay.
	But go ahead.
	Not that you can continue.
	It's just that I've got all the information that I need to...
	No, that's fine.
	And she does say there's four children, and she says that she relates the most to me, and she sees me as a basically like mini-her, and so she worries about me.
	Oh, no.
	I know.
	That's terrible.
	Yeah.
	I'm the most narcissistic person you're ever likely to meet.
	You remind me of me.
	Oh.
	I know.
	She really doesn't...
	You probably think it's a compliment.
	Yeah, it was more like an insult.
	I was like, are you trying to hurt me with this?
	So about two years ago, going back to why I finally defood, I went to a wedding for someone on my dad's side of the family.
	And she had moved and lived about four hours from there.
	So while I was traveling, I figured I would see her for a little bit.
	So I saw her and everything went as well as it could.
	And then I went to the wedding and my sister and my dad were there as well.
	And my sister was frustrated with me.
	This is my older sister.
	And so she was frustrated.
	She felt like I was kind of pawning off my daughter on her.
	One of the instances was at the wedding, she was taking her son back to the hotel because he was tired.
	And I just figured that she would take my daughter too because that's what I would do in the reverse situation.
	And she just was fed up with that, I guess, that I would...
	Pawn off my child, even though she was...
	I'm not certain why it was so upsetting to her.
	And I was just like on a...
	I'm usually very introverted, and I was kind of like super extroverted during my trip.
	And so she felt like I was off and maybe using again or something.
	So she vented to my mom about it.
	And that Monday morning, because that was over a weekend, I didn't find this out for a couple of weeks, but my mom had contacted the state board again, as well as CPS, and made up a bunch of stories about, she pretended she was at the wedding.
	I think she saw a picture of my daughter with a guy, and she pretended that she was that guy.
	I have copies of it.
	And so she said that I was jumping on the beds and that I was dangerous and I was grinding up on a bunch of men and just that if I was taking care of people In my line of work that they would be worried.
	She was basically just trying to get me back into surveillance of some kind because I had graduated the program.
	And so, yeah, CPS called me and since I already had a history with CPS, that was worrisome.
	But when they came and did their interview and everything, because they came and interviewed my daughter at school before I even knew anything, because my mom never told me she did this.
	And then came to our house and investigated it and stuff.
	They said it was the best home they had ever seen for a child's welfare.
	Both cases got dropped eventually, but it was, I thought...
	It's a long process, right?
	It's a long process, and that's so scary to me.
	I just determined that my mom is scary in my life, trying to control me, because...
	I mean, she's trying to get my daughter taken away from me and my job, and I wasn't even working at the time.
	So, like, contacting the state board is kind of...
	doesn't make sense.
	Right.
	So, I mean, got it.
	And your alcoholism associated with your bad marriage, what were the issues with your marriage?
	I got married very young and I had very low self-esteem and I think I just really settled.
	I've always been competent of my brain but I always have felt inadequate physically because I was so overweight and I've lost most of the weight and everything and ended up, you know, being more attractive than most.
	Uh, I, I just, uh, I married someone way beneath me who was like, just lies to me constantly and just, uh, um, and I felt stuck because I grew up in such a religious household and I had no support in leaving the marriage.
	They were always just like, stand by, you know, you need to stay in it and, um, I mean, now that I'm divorced, I really only have a couple of friends from my history because I was just disowned, basically, when I divorced.
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So I can sort of understand this sort of family history stuff and all that.
	So your sister, what's your sister's view of your mom?
	My younger sister or my older sister?
	My older sister was the one that was at the wedding with me and my younger sister is the one that's getting married.
	Alright, so let's start with your younger sister first.
	She has a very different viewpoint as my older sister and I. My older sister and I share a father, and then my little sister and brother share a father, and they had a very different experience with my mom.
	For my older sister and I, my older sister actually defoobed for a couple of years.
	Probably a decade ago, but came back around.
	But my little sister is...
	I asked her this because Michael had asked if she wanted to be on the show, and she basically said no.
	She does not like confrontation or conflict or anything like that.
	And she said...
	Yeah, who does?
	I mean...
	Well, I know, but...
	She doesn't like flossing.
	It's like, well, who does?
	I mean, this is not like, yay, confrontation and conflict, but you know.
	That's true.
	No, but she avoids it.
	Yeah, okay, so she's willing to sacrifice long-term happiness for the sake of short-term comfort.
	Okay.
	Yes, and so her experience, when she was about 11, my mom moved to England.
	We live in the States for three years with her fifth husband.
	They had just gotten married, and she moved and left my little sister and brother here with their father.
	And I don't know how she spun that, but somehow, like, they're not upset with her for that.
	So...
	I'm sorry, not upset with her for moving?
	For leaving them.
	Yeah, for moving for husband number five.
	I'm upset by that.
	I mean, not that I needed her in my life.
	I had kind of never really seen my mom as mother figure.
	But I can't imagine doing that to my daughter, like leaving her.
	But you're all adults, right?
	At the time, she wasn't.
	She was 11.
	Yeah.
	Oh, so I'm so sorry.
	I missed that part.
	So your mother left her youngest daughter and moved away?
	She left all four of us and moved to England.
	But I was like 18, so it was not that big of a deal to me.
	But my little sister and brother were like 11 and 12.
	And how long was she gone?
	Three years.
	Wow.
	So if she left for three years to go to England, she would see them intermittently.
	Can I assume that?
	Yeah, like summers.
	They'd go out for a couple of weeks.
	Wow.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So no bond, right?
	Really?
	I don't feel like there's like a real mother-child bond.
	There's definitely not with my older sister and I. No, no, no.
	I mean your mom and her kids.
	Well, that's what I meant.
	Like, I don't see that bond.
	But I think that my younger siblings got more of a mom out of her than my older sister and I did.
	Wait, no, but you had your mom around longer.
	How could they end up with more of your mom?
	Well, my mom was just so absent when she was around because she was just jumping around from guy to guy to guy.
	No, but physically.
	Sorry, it's just what you're saying, right?
	Right, so your mom didn't leave when you were 11 for three years, but she left when your youngest sister was 11 for three years, right?
	Yes.
	Yes, so physically, yes.
	Okay, so they had less of your mom around physically, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, got it.
	Now, what kind of man is it, hang on, what kind of man is it who says, you've got an 11-year-old daughter?
	Yeah, fuck, move over here.
	Sounds good.
	Sounds legit.
	Let's do that.
	Military man.
	Okay.
	I mean, jeez, I'll tell you this, if I was dating a woman, I don't think I'd ever date a woman who had kids, but if I was dating a woman who had kids and she's like, I've got a great idea, I'm going to abandon my children and come live with you, I'd be like, oh my god, you are a horrible human being.
	I agree.
	My dick is now going to run to Burma and hide under a rock so that you can never find it again.
	Like, oh my god.
	No, I totally agree.
	I think that that's horrible as well.
	Yeah.
	No, but you said that the men seemed to get a little better, or was it just that your mom's doing better with them?
	But that's horrible.
	No, this one has just been long-term.
	I mean, it's actually lasted a long time.
	Right.
	Right.
	The other ones were very...
	Some of the other ones were very short, like less than a year marriage.
	Right, right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Alright, and your oldest, so your youngest sister, they feel a bit more, maybe because they didn't spend as much time with your mom, they can sentimentalize her a little bit more, or maybe because when she was really, I mean, for women, sorry, for girls going into puberty, I can assume that having a mom around is really pretty important, right?
	Yeah, I know that I couldn't talk, I didn't feel like I could talk to my mom when I was going through puberty, though.
	I found, like, surrogate moms...
	Yeah, because, I mean, weird shit starts happening, right?
	Like, as far as I understand it, you'll bleed for, like, five days but don't die.
	I mean, there's some really...
	Every month.
	...really strange shit goes on.
	But, yeah, okay.
	No, and I had to learn how to shave from an old Time magazine because I had no idea, right?
	So it's...
	This is prior to the...
	Prior to the internet and all, but...
	Okay, so...
	Maybe they've got some more of a weird attachment because the attachment was interrupted and they feel more of a hunger or whatever it is.
	So your younger sister is a little bit more pro-mom, is that right?
	Yes.
	Right.
	And your older sister?
	Um...
	She cut off contact with my mom for about, I would say a year or two, I don't remember, but this was like a decade ago.
	So at some point she saw that my mom was really destructive, and she said after this all went down, even though I'm upset with her for venting to my mom about me, because my mom has a history of using things against you years later when she has the information, so she should know better than to do that, but She said that she still...
	She has a lot going on in her life right now, but she said that it's definitely something that she needs to address at some point.
	So it kind of sounded like I need to...
	She needed to...
	Maybe Difu as well.
	She had been playing around with the thought, but now I don't know where that's standing because I know that my mom's thing is giving people things.
	She's getting a van from my mom.
	Wow, does your mom make a lot of money?
	I have no idea.
	I think that they are financially responsible.
	Does she have a job?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	She's really competent in work atmospheres.
	Like, you'd never know what she's like.
	Oh, I'd know.
	I'd know.
	I'd know.
	I would not, you know, the degree to which people just leave crazy bitches be so they don't get targeted is not to be underestimated, right?
	Don't assume that she's getting away.
	People are just like, oh yeah, oh yeah, she's crazy.
	She's nasty, so fine, you know, just do whatever she wants, right?
	Yeah, well, yes.
	And that was another thing.
	I got offered a position.
	I'm not working currently.
	I'm in school.
	But I got offered a position in the place where she was working because she moved back to where we were.
	And yeah, I didn't take it, but I did play around with it a lot because I was like, I feel like she's winning, that I'm having to change my life or miss out on big experiences.
	And she doesn't have any repercussions.
	Who?
	My mother.
	Oh, she doesn't have any repercussions?
	I don't feel like she has.
	What would those look like?
	How would you know if she had repercussions?
	I guess I don't know that.
	Like, are you talking like a meteor strike with the ground open up and sucker down to the lower levels of Hades?
	I mean, I'm just curious because, I mean, it's a big question.
	Like, nasty people, like, you know, does karma every come around, like one of those bladed boomerangs from Blade Runner?
	Or, no, Mad Max?
	I mean, how would you know?
	I guess I wouldn't.
	Would she have to end up in jail?
	Would she have to be alone or whatever?
	I mean, my siblings defoing would be a repercussion, but that's not happening.
	And it doesn't seem like it really even matters, because I feel like I never really even mattered to her except for as a status thing.
	Like, if I'm attractive and the men are attracted to me, then she's all about how much men want me and stuff like that.
	But it's never like...
	Is she pretty?
	Is she?
	Yeah.
	Five husbands, right?
	I was wondering.
	Well, yeah, but I don't think she is.
	Unless she can pick up quarters and open beer bottles with her hoo-hoo, she's got to have something going on.
	Well, they're not quality men.
	Oh, right.
	Okay.
	So they're just like, any vagina in a storm is worth paying for, right?
	Well, her last husband's a really nice guy.
	And my dad is great.
	Oh, no you didn't.
	I did.
	No, you didn't.
	No, come on.
	I feel like he's too nice.
	Oh, you were doing so well.
	He just walked all over.
	Oh, so good.
	So good.
	That last step is a doozy.
	So you mean the nice guy who said, yeah, come to England and abandon your children.
	That sounds great.
	No, yeah.
	Is that the nice guy you're referring to?
	Yes, that is not nice.
	Not nice?
	Yeah.
	That's evil.
	It's as selfish as your mom is.
	No, he's selfish for himself.
	That's for sure.
	That's a stupid statement.
	At the expense of innocent children.
	Yes.
	Okay, I see that.
	But he's the best of the bunch.
	Nice military guy as well.
	Nice military guy.
	Was that...
	That's the story?
	Wait, what?
	Nice military guy.
	Was that...
	Is that also your story?
	I... I feel like he's generally a nice guy that kind of just gets walked all over.
	But he knew what he wanted and he wanted her and so he was willing to...
	Nice guys don't marry crazy bitches.
	Yeah.
	You need to get that tattooed on your forehead, right?
	Or if, you know, you might have sex with them and then like run screaming as long as there's no way of tracking you down.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Because they've got a lot of experience and they're often quite good in bed, but dear God.
	Ew.
	Ew.
	Sorry, I know.
	She does.
	She's got a lot of experience on how to handle the equipment, right?
	Like gay men and Elliot Rodger, probably further a little bit ahead, but that's about it, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, her parenting was just terrible.
	Like, she was just a terrible parent, but...
	I don't know why I'm going to this.
	My dad was definitely the best out of them all.
	He was husband number one, and thank goodness for him.
	Why?
	Why?
	Because he was my rock.
	Are you saying she was less crazy when she was younger?
	Well, it's hard to recognize it when I was young.
	But I do read my journals and stuff, and I see the manipulation that was just rampant.
	Do you think that people start off less crazy and get more crazy?
	Usually it's the other way around.
	I don't know what she is, right?
	right?
	If she's a borderline or whatever then she's going to get mellow or she gets older as far as I understand it.
	Oh.
	No, she's probably I think she dupes people.
	I feel like my dad's such a nice guy that it would be really easy to...
	I think women are so typically manipulative.
	So I feel like...
	It would be really easy to manipulate certain men.
	And I think that she does that.
	No, I get that.
	I get that.
	And why do you think men are easy to manipulate?
	Uh...
	No, I'm not offended.
	I'm not offended.
	I'm genuinely curious.
	I'd like to know the answer to this.
	Go save some men from some crazy bitches.
	Let's do some heroic work here, sister.
	I don't think they realize what women are capable of and what so many women rely on to get by.
	And what do women rely on to get by?
	Oh, just being able to manipulate.
	Use emotions or sex or anything that is...
	Hmm.
	Like, I've seen...
	I have not viewed my...
	I have seen women...
	I've been disgusted with women growing up because of, I believe, because of my mom.
	And so, like, I was just bound and determined not to be a weak, pathetic woman like she was.
	And so, like...
	It took me until my current relationship to cry or show emotion or anything that was feminine.
	I just always thought it was so weak because I just saw my mom as such a pathetic person.
	She sounds like a very strong parasite though.
	She is.
	She is.
	Yeah.
	But I just, I don't, I didn't want to, like, I took on so many of the male qualities that my dad had.
	And so, yeah, I'm working on that.
	And sorry, you don't have kids yet, is that right?
	I do.
	You do?
	And sons, daughters?
	I have, well, I was fostering a girl and a boy.
	I adopted the girl, and then the boy I wasn't allowed to adopt.
	And so my sister adopted him.
	Right.
	Now, when you're the boy, let's just call him your boy, right?
	So when your boy gets older, what are you going to tell him about women?
	Let's say he's like 12 and 13, right?
	And he's like, there's this really cute girl in my class, right?
	Auntie Savannah, what do I need to know about girls?
	Goodness gracious.
	You might as well practice now because God knows men need it.
	And women, why are men so manipulated by women?
	Because they're manipulated by their moms.
	And because their moms are manipulative, they don't tell boys about female manipulation.
	So what are you going to tell that fine young man to keep him safe from estrogen-based parasites?
	I don't.
	I don't know how I would verbalize that.
	Would you like to rap it?
	I can give you a backbeat.
	It's a pretty white backbeat involving lots of rim shots, but I can sure...
	No, you've got to know.
	What would you say?
	What do you need to say to men?
	Because, you know, if men know this stuff, then they can...
	I feel like men are so easily manipulated, but I don't know how I would verbalize that to a 12-year-old.
	Don't insult men.
	Don't insult.
	Look, how are we supposed to know?
	Seriously.
	Who tells us?
	How much propaganda do men get about men are bad, women are good?
	Men are bad, women are good.
	Men are cold, but women are deeply instinctive and connected and emotional.
	Women don't have to think because they have instincts.
	And women's instincts are superior to male intellect and male rationality every day of the week and 70,000 times on Sunday.
	Men, you know, it's funny, you know, I mean, women complain about men being emotionally unavailable, and then when I get upset, women complain that I'm ranting.
	Oh yeah, I see how I can win this one!
	I know.
	Heads you win, tails you lose.
	Hey, you're just cold and unemotional.
	Hey, your emotions are inconvenient to me.
	I'm going to insult them.
	Oh, great.
	That's just great.
	Right?
	So, come on.
	You've got stuff bottled up.
	You help men.
	If you want men to not be manipulated, it's got to come from a woman.
	Tell this fine young man whose heart you care to draw a fiery moat against all predators around.
	What would you tell them?
	I don't know.
	I feel like if you're with somebody that's not trying to manipulate you and stuff, it's not going to be all rosy all the time and stuff.
	Like, they're going to bring up...
	Okay, you can't use and stuff twice in your first sentence.
	Did I do that?
	I didn't.
	You didn't hear this back, you know?
	Okay, I'm going to give you details and stuff about stuff and stuff.
	Oh, God.
	I didn't know I said that.
	I'm so stuck.
	I don't know how I would verbalize this to a child because I feel like I was fed things that were way beyond my...
	Age bracket that I should have been hearing and stuff.
	Now I'll catch it.
	But I really try not to do that to my child and put things on her that are not age appropriate.
	So I would be wary to do the same with my nephew.
	But I think I would say, let me think...
	Because I'm fighting this, that women are so evil and manipulative and everything, because not all women are like that.
	I've just viewed women as so evil.
	But I do...
	There is such a long history of just seeing...
	You started off by saying, young man, do you like your balls?
	I would like to teach you how to hang on to them.
	Because women put them in very expensive purses and close them, and every time they open and close them...
	They will hurt as if she was doing it while they were still attached to your little body.
	Anyway, this is why I don't talk to 13-year-olds a lot.
	Well, I honestly didn't understand the way that men thought at all until I was listening to you and talking with my fiancé.
	I had no idea how important sex was to men.
	I know that probably sounds stupid, but I was really, really...
	You what now?
	I just had no idea how important sex was to men.
	That they think about it so much.
	Now, do you think that sex is more important to men than it is to women?
	Yes.
	Why?
	Because, well, I know that I don't think about it constantly, and I know that my fiancé does.
	And you sound like you talk about men.
	Like, basically, it's all about just, you know, making a new little man over and over and over again.
	That's all he thinks about.
	That's what it is for women.
	No, that's what it is for women, too.
	There's a reason God gave both of us orgasms.
	And in fact, you guys totally got the good end of that deal.
	How's that?
	Right?
	Because for me, it's like wanting to nap.
	Women is just like, hey, let's just keep going.
	Hey, let's round this again.
	Hey, I'm not done.
	Right?
	I mean, good God.
	And they think God is a man.
	Dear Lord in heaven, if God was a man, we'd get that brush in our teeth and women would have to climb Mount Everest for half of one.
	Anyway, but all right.
	But keep.
	So you.
	So, okay.
	So men are.
	Is your fiancee?
	How do you know fiancee thinks about sex all the time?
	Because we talk about everything, and so he tells me how much it's consuming and how he hates it sometimes.
	Oh, he hates having to think about sex all the time?
	Yeah, he wishes he wasn't so focused on it, but if we haven't had sex in a while, then it becomes like...
	For about eight and a half minutes after a good blowjob, it's totally out of our minds.
	So, you know, clearly that's your job to fix.
	I just really want to point that out.
	And yes, he's welcome.
	You can tell if he's welcome.
	Okay.
	That's not my experience of sex though.
	Like the only time I've really, really craved it is when I was not good in my own head and I felt like the only way I was desirable is if somebody was desiring me or something.
	So then you wanted a sort of selfish affirmation of your value rather than sex itself, right?
	Yes, yes.
	And that was my history with it.
	I've changed drastically in the last, like, four years, but yes.
	Right.
	But now I don't have a sex drive like my fiancé.
	Do you know, actually, when I was a kid, I thought that a woman's G-spot, it actually meant G, like, thousand, thousand dollars.
	No.
	But anyway, that's perhaps another topic for another time.
	All right.
	Well, I can tell you, I can give you a brief thing that might be a good way to help him with this particular aspect of life.
	Well, let's hear it.
	So I would say, look, it's great that you find a woman cute, a girl cute.
	I mean, I'm sure she is cute, right?
	And your body is primed to respond to cute, right?
	Nothing wrong with that.
	And your tongue is primed to respond to sugar and fat and salt, right?
	But you can't just eat sugar and fat and salt, right?
	You can't guide your diet by that which tastes good.
	We know that, right?
	How much fun is it to go and exercise?
	Well, it's really, really quite boring.
	In fact, if you didn't know it was good for you, you would assume it was some punishment for being bad, right?
	Yes.
	Right?
	And so crap that's bad for you tastes better than stuff that's good for you.
	And sitting on the couch feels better than working out.
	And yeah, you get some endorphins at the end and blah-de-blah, but basically, you know, it's not as nice, right?
	Sitting with your feet up, eating bonbons is great, and sweating to the oldies with Richard Simmons, not so great, right?
	So there's nothing wrong with Sugar, and there's nothing wrong with salt, and there's nothing wrong with fat.
	It just can't be how you decide what to eat, right?
	And I'm sure the kid would get that, because that's the battle of childhood, right?
	And it's the battle of adulthood as well.
	Yeah.
	So, I would say, so your body, and it's a particular part of your body, right, that is the reason you stand up and can pee in the woods, that is like your penis to beauty is like your tongue to sugar.
	Doesn't mean that sugar is bad, Yeah.
	And for God's sakes, do not make your decisions about whether the girl is worth your time based on how she looks.
	Yeah.
	Because you know how like candy manufacturers make the candy really bright and do they put it at the eye level of adults?
	Good God, no.
	They put it at the eye level of children, knowing that the children are going to hang onto their parents' legs until the parents either want to chew their own legs off and leave the child behind or stuff the child's face with candy, right?
	Right.
	And in this way, women make themselves attractive in the same way that candy manufacturers make candy attractive, right?
	If you remember when we're at the checkout counters, what's right by the candy?
	What's right by the children's candy is the man candy, which is all the women's magazines, which is how to make women look like candy bars so that men will put their money bars into the woman's bar holes.
	I may have used too many bar metaphors there at some point, but it often happens in bars.
	See how I tied that all together?
	Anyway.
	So, Women know that men are susceptible or that men like beauty in the same way that candy bar makers know that children like candy, right?
	Which is why an orange doesn't look as pretty as a Mr.
	Big Bar.
	So, pretty is great.
	Now, I would then say, do you think that the girl knows she's pretty?
	Right.
	Okay, yes.
	Now, I want you to think about pretty.
	Because one thing that you need to learn about, my fine young man, about things in life, is that the more time someone puts into something, the less time they're putting into everything else.
	So if somebody's a really good tennis player, most people will look at that person and say, what a damn fine tennis player, right?
	And what I think is how bad they are at everything else.
	Because they spend all this time learning how to play tennis, right?
	Yeah.
	So when you look at a girl...
	Who's very attractive.
	I mean, obviously part of it is the way she's born and all that.
	But if she really puts herself together that way and dresses that way and is dieting or is doing lots of exercise to stay pretty, then she's really working a lot on being pretty.
	And what you see and what your penis sees is, hey, good egg holder.
	Good egg cup.
	Very pretty egg cup.
	It's got swirls, right?
	But...
	What I see is somebody who spent a lot of time looking pretty and not a lot of time learning about being a good person.
	And that doesn't mean that every pretty person is a bad person, and it doesn't mean that everyone who's not pretty is a good person.
	These are just things to be aware of, things to be cautious about, things to know.
	That makes sense.
	I agree with that.
	Now, why do women...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I didn't mean to interrupt you.
	Sorry.
	I was just going to say that most attractive people haven't worked on their mind at all because they've gotten free passes.
	Yeah, I mean, they're honey traps, right?
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Vagina clamps.
	It's like those wheel clamps for your car, except you can actually leave your car behind.
	You can't leave your trapped penis behind, right?
	So...
	I would say, well, why do women, why do girls want to be pretty, right?
	I mean, boys don't sit there in the bathroom, I guess maybe some do, but most boys don't sit in their bathroom trying to do their hair and put Kleenexes into their bras and stuff like that.
	So why do girls want to be pretty?
	Well, because they want to attract men, right?
	And that's fine, right?
	But pretty is designed for babies.
	I would say to him.
	Prettiest design for babies.
	And there's nothing wrong with that.
	Again, you know, sugar is designed to taste good.
	Nothing wrong with that.
	Or not design, but it's the way our bodies react to it because it was so rare.
	And so...
	A girl wants to look pretty so that you will make a baby with her.
	I'm not saying this is obviously not going to happen at 13 or 16 or whatever, but that's sort of what nature is for.
	That's what it's designing all this stuff for.
	It's why you have these constant boners and you can't go out in a bathing suit without bending your pee-pee back three times in the stall.
	I remember being that age going out with the girls who were in bathing suits.
	I mean, you had to stay in the water or think of Margaret Thatcher or Double yourself back to the point where you're basically trying to give yourself anal sex before heading out.
	So, anyway.
	Goodness.
	So, there's nothing wrong with any of this stuff.
	I'm just, you know, pointing out trends.
	Now, a woman wants a man who can provide to her while she is pregnant.
	And I was just going over the math with this with my daughter.
	Right?
	And so, you know, we were saying, look, if she wants three kids, right?
	So she's five, right?
	And we just talked, she didn't originally want kids, now she does, right?
	So we're just talking about it, right?
	So I was saying, look, if you want three kids, then, you know, is it really responsible to say, I want to go and be a doctor when you're trying to have a baby?
	Well, and she said no, right?
	And we talked about that some, right?
	And she said, well, because, you know, Maybe there's some woman who doesn't want kids or some guy who's going to go be a doctor and actually go be a doctor rather than, right?
	Because she knows how important it is to stay home with the kids, right?
	So it takes most women about six months to get pregnant.
	So if you get married and you want to have kids fairly quickly, it's not a great idea to go and start some monstrous high-powered career if you're going to stay home with your kids, right?
	Which is what you should be doing.
	It could be the husband, but it's the woman who's got the feedback.
	So she's the one who's going to have the children tethered to all that beneficial nutrition.
	So, you know, six months to get pregnant, nine months to bring the child to term, a year and a half of breastfeeding.
	You do that three times, and then you have to get your kids to at least the age of five or six until they can go to school, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So here we're talking 10 to 12 years.
	Now somebody's got to be paying the bills during that time, right?
	Yeah.
	And so a woman wants to make herself...
	Attractive so that a man will want to have sex with her.
	Right?
	And again, this is no judgment.
	These are just facts, right?
	And the sex is, you know, in my case, you know, because I listen to Sting's sexual philosophy, about three and a half weeks.
	But after those three and a half weeks, after the tantric sex, no.
	So sex, you know, 10, 15 minutes, 20 minutes or whatever, right?
	And then that makes a baby.
	So the woman's physical attractiveness is there for the 10 or 15 minutes.
	The woman's personality needs to be there for the next 25 or 30.
	Right?
	This is the dichotomy.
	Your penis wants a baby.
	Your baby wants a good mother.
	And you need to listen to your baby, not your dick.
	Well, there's the show title for you.
	Right?
	But this is important, right?
	Your penis wants a pretty girl.
	Your baby wants a great mother.
	And I don't care how pretty that girl is.
	When it's 3 o'clock in the morning and the baby's got colic, her cheekbones aren't going to help her very much, right?
	Right.
	Her laser-like blue Sheryl Crow eyes aren't going to do much good for her when the baby's just thrown up all over her boobs again, right?
	Yeah.
	Which I'm sure you can get on a webcam fetish site somewhere, but that's perhaps harkening back to the earlier call too much.
	Right, so I would say that when you're thinking of what makes a woman attractive, think about it from your children's standpoint.
	Kids, babies don't care how pretty their moms are.
	They don't even really care at all about how big their boobs are, because big or small boobs both produce the same amount of milk, right?
	Right.
	So, be careful if a woman is focusing too much on doing that Indian snake charmer thing with your penis and not appealing to your heart.
	Because the woman who's great for your penis probably ain't great for your babies.
	And the challenge of being a man is to find a way to align your penis with your heart.
	Your balls with your future baby's interests.
	And when you study virtue, when you study goodness, that happens of its own accord.
	Your penis is like, oh, we're not heading for boobs, we're heading for a good heart?
	Okay.
	Okay, we're in that kind of society, fine.
	We're not in some war-torn society where I'm just going to spray my Seed over vaginas like a crop duster?
	Fine.
	Okay, we're going to focus and invest, right?
	And your penis will follow your values.
	It doesn't have to be in charge.
	And it doesn't have to be something that women lasso and pull you around with often off a cliff, right?
	You need a good heart...
	Since sex is all about babies, you need a good-hearted, steady, compassionate, virtuous woman...
	And if you're not turned on by that, don't have sex.
	Or at least have heavily protected sex.
	And I'm talking like medieval armor and a hazmat suit from another dimension over a webcam.
	So women will try to distract you by making you very excited to be around them, by playing games, but that's not a good idea but that's not a good idea to pursue because that is going to be pursuing very short-term interests.
	And you know how it's like, eat your veggies, don't just eat your sugar, right?
	Because in the long run, you might get diabetes.
	If you get involved with the wrong woman, she will rip your heart out.
	She will rip your wallet to shreds.
	She will take your balls.
	She will see you in court.
	She will mutilate you with legalese.
	She will bury you in the infinite paper cuts of legal bills.
	And it is dangerous.
	And the more a woman is focused on just being pretty, the more likely it is that she is not pursuing virtue of any kind.
	What she's trying to do is summon penises, not a good man's heart.
	And that's because the way that the world works right now, ejaculate is multi-decade liquid gold for women, right?
	They can take you to court.
	They can get you to have to pay alimony and child support or even just child support.
	And they can destroy your capacity to find love, to get a good woman.
	They can make you so bitter, so angry, so damaged, so broken, that good women don't want to have anything to do with you.
	Also so broke, right?
	I mean, they say, well, men don't want to raise other men's children.
	Absolutely!
	But women don't want to have a man who's paying for another woman's kid, or for his kid with another woman.
	Right.
	And so what's in your balls is about the most profitable thing that bad women can mine.
	Right.
	So guard it fiercely.
	Protect it.
	Keep it away from black hole financial Pac-Man carnivorous vaginas.
	So anyway, somewhat modified.
	That would be something that I would talk about, right?
	Just to keep them safe.
	Keep them safe.
	What is the most dangerous thing that can happen to a man in the modern world?
	Well, not a lot of war going on.
	No draft, right?
	Not a lot of cholera or smallpox.
	The most dangerous thing that can happen to a man is to be mutilated in his heart, soul, and testicles by a woman.
	That is the most dangerous.
	Woman plus state plus voting has created a situation of intense predation upon men.
	Right.
	And I'm not saying men don't prey on women.
	Of course they do.
	They lie to women, they manipulate them, and they say, I'll call, whatever, right?
	They borrow someone else's car and pretend it's their own.
	Yeah, but we know all of that.
	And women warn each other about that, but women don't warn men about it.
	And men warn women about that, but women don't warn men about the single greatest danger facing men these days is predatory women armed for the full might of the state.
	Right?
	And that is the predation, the most dangerous predation that any man will ever face, statistically, is never mentioned to men.
	Why?
	Because apparently it's a patriarchy.
	I don't know how people can say this stuff with a straight face, but anyway.
	Alright, I don't want to forget, and I haven't forgotten your question.
	But this has a lot to do with Your original question, at least in my opinion, which is what do you do in the face of female corruption?
	Right.
	Well, I am wondering, because I tried listening to any podcast I could find that might be relevant as to what you do after you defoo if you might be crossing paths with that person.
	Oh, yeah, no, it's come up a bunch of times before, but, you know, given our non-encyclopedic...
	Yeah, no, I mean, what is that song I sang for Podcast 500?
	All podcasts of note are impossible to quote, search in vain for what you think I might have said.
	You'll never catch the big chatty forehead.
	Yeah, I mean, because it's all, you know, it's not indexed or anything like that, right?
	So...
	What would be ideal for you?
	What would be the best thing for you?
	Well, I really, really want to attend the wedding.
	Like, really badly.
	Like, I'm not going to the baby shower because she's also pregnant, but that's being held at my mom's house.
	So I want to go to the wedding, but I'm scared that if she was willing to do those things when she wasn't even at the wedding, my mother...
	To contact these agencies and stuff.
	Like, what will she do when she is actually, like, legitimately there so she'll have more of a leg to stand on?
	Yeah.
	I don't know if I'm being super dangerous.
	Oh, no.
	You've got at least two examples that I recall in this conversation.
	If your mother...
	Preying on you horribly and putting you at significant legal and financial risk, not to mention the fact that your kids could be ripped away or your child could be ripped away, right?
	Yeah, I've already had one child ripped away.
	One child, right?
	Right.
	Bitch stole a kid, right?
	Well, that was...
	I mean, am I way off on that?
	My older sister was a big contributor to the intervention.
	But it was your mom who called, right?
	My mom is the one that called yes the second time.
	Right.
	So, there's one perspective that I try to use.
	And I'm not saying you haven't or don't or won't, right?
	But there's one perspective that I try to choose when it comes to these difficult decisions.
	So, What does your daughter want the most?
	If she could have full knowledge of everything, what would she want the most?
	Are you talking about attending or are you talking about staying in this family?
	Because she wants me to be her mom the most.
	Okay, right.
	So what would she feel about any action you might take that would put that at risk?
	It would be unwise.
	I'd be being a bad mother.
	So, hasn't this just been a long walk to a short question?
	Yes!
	Shit.
	Right?
	Isn't that the perspective that...
	And look, your mom didn't take your thoughts into consideration at all, right?
	No.
	Other than perhaps to idly and sadistically torture you from time to time, she didn't take into account your preferences at all.
	But the great thing about being a parent, as you know, is so many times you get to say, what does my child want?
	Well, that's what it is, right?
	What's best for my child?
	Well, that's what it is.
	Okay.
	That sucks.
	I mean...
	Yeah, it sucks.
	How good are you as a parent after you've been around your mom?
	How what?
	How connected and together are you as a parent when you've been around your mom?
	how connected and present are you going to be as a parent after you've been around your mom for the next couple of weeks, every time the phone rings or maybe the next couple of months?
	If you're worried about her contacting CPS, right?
	Oh, okay.
	Yeah, that's true.
	We don't usually have much of a right to do stuff that's going to cause us to be emotionally unavailable or less available to our kids, right?
	Yeah.
	How is your daughter going to feel if she goes with you and has a great time and then says, I want to see them again?
	Yeah.
	No, she...
	Why don't we see Grandmama more, Mama?
	No, she thinks my mom's a horrible person.
	Ah.
	Why do we go to a place with such horrible people?
	Yeah.
	And what would your answer be?
	Because I didn't want to miss out.
	That would be my answer.
	I'm sentimental.
	I want the form of things rather than the people in them, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	It's something that if I don't go, I have to accept the truth about my family that I'm still resisting, right?
	Right.
	No, that seems pretty clear. - Okay.
	Right.
	And I'm very sorry.
	I mean, it should be a time of unalloyed joy in a happy and healthy family, right?
	Right.
	Where there's no complications.
	You started off, and I'm sorry if I couldn't quite follow the story as closely as I could have, but something about, was your sister who's like, oh, you're pointing your kid off of me because you want your sister to take your kid back to the hotel with her kid and something like that?
	Yeah.
	Can I just tell you, I mean, oh, Savannah, it's so tragic.
	You know, I mean, I've now been married for 11 years.
	I've known my wife for 12.
	And before, things used to be so complicated with people.
	And with girlfriends.
	So complicated.
	They'd get upset about something.
	I wouldn't know what it was.
	They'd be slamming the doors.
	I'm fine.
	If you don't know, then there's no point in me telling you.
	And eventually I'd get it out of them.
	It'd be like, what?
	Really?
	I did this?
	It's so complicated.
	And it just makes you kind of paranoid after a while.
	Like, what?
	What now?
	I don't know what the rules are, right?
	Right.
	This dictatorship has no constitution!
	No rules, right?
	Right.
	I never know when I... It's so complicated.
	Like, can I just tell you, I mean...
	And, you know, you have a fiancé, so I'm sure this is the case with him, too.
	You know, sane people...
	Are so uncomplicated and so drama-free that it really puts the...
	Crazy people are so shallow.
	This is why they kick up all this dirt.
	You know, if there's enough dirt in the water, you don't know how deep it is.
	But generally, you know it's pretty shallow.
	And the more drama and crap there is in people's lives, the shallower they are.
	This idea that Good people are sort of simple and shallow, but bad people are complicated, messy.
	People are deep and complicated.
	It's the complete opposite of the truth.
	It's just a bunch of propaganda put out by crazy people so it looks like their craziness is worth something.
	But, you know, if I was in your family and I'm taking my kid back and you're like, oh, can you take my kid back too, do you know what I'm going to say?
	Either yes or no.
	I'm happy to.
	Hey, you know, no, I'm going to say yes.
	I'm happy to.
	Yeah, no problem.
	Easy, simple.
	No repercussions later, no big problems later, no bad-mouthing you behind your back.
	Just, yeah, done.
	That'd be nice.
	Yeah, but I mean, I'm going to assume that this is, you know, where you're at in your life and your fiancé is, you know, you talk about everything...
	It's just not complicated.
	You know, we were at...
	I was at a pool today, and there was a kid there who was really thirsty, and I'm like, oh, you know, we've got some water.
	Take it, right?
	I mean, it was unopened, right?
	So we had a bottle of water.
	Go take it.
	He took the water.
	I thought they were just going to take a drink and leave it, but they took the water and went.
	My wife shows up.
	I'm like, oh, I've got to go to the car to get...
	To get some water.
	I lent it to the family and whatever, right?
	She's like, okay, go.
	You know, fine.
	But it wasn't like, well, I bought water.
	Where did it go?
	You know, well, what do you mean?
	Don't you have any boundaries?
	Why couldn't you just ask for that water back?
	What's the matter with you?
	It's just like, oh, you know, it's just simple.
	Yeah.
	And that's a ridiculous example, but I'm telling you, like, in past relationships, that could have been like a day-destroying decision.
	Yeah, I know what you mean.
	And I'm sorry that you don't have gracious, generous, good-hearted, easy-to-get-along-with deep and meaningful people in your family.
	In fact, you have quite the opposite.
	But the drama is all there to hide the lack of connection.
	And the complications are all there to hide the absence of intimacy.
	And the complications and confusions and hostilities are all there to hide the fact that nobody likes each other and least of all themselves.
	Right. - Good night.
	Thank you.
	And what you want is to have a family in that situation that you like.
	That is not the family, sadly, that you have or had.
	And for me, I don't want my daughter to ever be susceptible to sentimentality.
	Sentimentality is when we wish that the picture of happiness contained people we like.
	Like, you want to enter this wedding because it's a wedding, and the word wedding has this sentimentality to it, right?
	But the people are there, right?
	Yes.
	The people are the people who are there.
	There's no abstract wedding outside of the people who are there.
	The wedding is only the people who are there, right?
	Now, sentimentality is something that's invented by bad people to distract good people with appearances.
	So, it's a wedding, and suddenly you're supposed to be sentimental, and you're supposed to forgive, and you're supposed to pretend that nothing bad happened, and just together, just for this day, can't we all just whatever, right? and just together, just for this day, can't we all Mm-hmm.
	Thank you.
	But all of these rituals, they're not invented by good people, but by bad people.
	I mean, the emotional resonance, it's all manipulation.
	I mean, my wife and I, we forgot our anniversary.
	Because, I mean, every day is great, right?
	But if you have a bad marriage, you have to make a big fucking deal of the anniversary.
	Because that sentimentality that's invented by bad people so that they can control good people.
	So that they can pretend that they have something to offer you.
	Look, now, Savannah, they have a wedding to offer you.
	Well, they don't, in fact.
	They only have sentimentality to offer you.
	I want my daughter to be immune from sentimentality.
	Whether it's nationalism, whether it's race, whether it's culture, whether it's whatever.
	Sports teams.
	I mean, how much bad shit is done because good people are susceptible to the emotional manipulation of sentimentality?
	Which is...
	The ritual has value regardless of the people involved.
	Your sports team has value regardless of the people involved.
	Your country has value regardless of the people involved.
	This wedding has value regardless of the people involved.
	No.
	There is no such thing as regardless of the people involved.
	The people involved are the only damn thing that I will value or not.
	Not the shape, not the location, not the costumes, not the music, not the...
	The harp and the flowers and the flower girls.
	This whole sentimental bullshit designed to distract you from the fact that there are people in your life who want you around, who've done everything to drive you away and don't want to change.
	Right.
	I can shut up now if you want to.
	No, I'm soaking it in.
	But tell me what you think.
	Is that helpful?
	No, that's very helpful.
	Wait, do I sound needy there?
	Savannah, is that helpful?
	Am I helping you?
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I just said, never mind.
	No, that's very helpful.
	I think it makes it very clear.
	Yeah, if you can be controlled by bad people based on sentimentality, that is a lesson that you will be teaching your daughter if you go.
	Yeah.
	All bad people, all they have to do is rent a hole, get a bad band, and make everyone look like they're made out of icing, and all past injuries will melt away, right?
	Right.
	No, that seems very clear.
	I thought for sure I was going to be going to this until my fiancé and I talked about it further, and he's like, I don't think Steph would say that you should go.
	And I'm like...
	Wait, what?
	Oh, is he there?
	Yeah.
	Is he there?
	Yes.
	You tell him for me, don't you fob this one on me, brother.
	Well, I think that Steph would say, no, you say she's your fiancé.
	You protect her heart from these monsters.
	Well, I think he knows how much I value your opinion.
	Not that I don't value his opinion, but I was just not expecting that.
	I am not big enough to hide behind.
	Well, Steph would say that.
	He's laughing.
	No, I appreciate that.
	But yeah, I mean, he knows, right?
	And it is hard.
	You know, it's hard for men who are raised broken on the vanity and narcissism and greed of so many women.
	It's hard for men to stand up to women.
	I mean, we saw this with the guy before.
	Yeah.
	Webcam sex object for spooching.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Go for it.
	70 bucks an hour.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I'm being supportive.
	Right?
	Because what do women say?
	What do women say when a man says something that disagrees with their interests?
	You're not being supportive.
	Yeah.
	Like we're a bra that busted or something, you know?
	I mean, you're not being supportive.
	Get me my drugs!
	Support me!
	Right?
	Right.
	You're not being supportive.
	Well, no, I'm just disagreeing, right?
	And I have, I think, good reasons, and we should negotiate about it.
	No!
	Support me!
	Right?
	Which, of course, originally meant pay for me, right?
	Supporting someone else.
	But now it's just...
	And again, I'm not saying this is the case with you, and of course I don't have women in my life who are like this, but a lot of times if a man disagrees with a woman, she'll get angry at him because he's not being...
	I know.
	Right?
	Yes.
	And it's, you know, and then when things go bad, the men have to pay the price, right?
	Alimony, child support, welfare state, single mom funding and all that, Obamacare.
	So, yeah, you know, I don't mind if you reject me, reject my advice, just don't make me pay for the consequences of that which I advised you against.
	Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, so...
	I mean, it's still something to talk about and all that, but that's just sort of my perspective.
	The great thing about having kids is you just have to think about what's best for them, and usually that's your answer.
	And the long-term best for them.
	Sure, she'd have fun at the wedding or whatever, but...
	If you're going to be worried about your mom dropping the CPS bomb on you again or having to explain more things or being alarmed or uncertain or being emotionally and mentally involved in those people's vortex again rather than being present with your kid, then, you know, I think about, you know, what does my 20-year-old daughter want?
	Does she want to have nothing but chocolate bars for dinner?
	No.
	Because when she's 20, she doesn't want to have those bad teeth and Halfway to diabetes and overweight or whatever it is, right?
	I mean, so what does your 20-year-old daughter want?
	Does she want one wedding with some weird people or does she want a mom who's connected who's living her values?
	She wants her mom connected.
	Yeah, I would assume so.
	That's a very good way for me.
	It's amazing how easy it is to get lost when it's your situation.
	Oh, God, yeah, listen, and I was hesitant to even bring this up, because I get that's how you parent, right?
	It's just that at this point, it sounded like you got a little lost in crazy town, which is totally understandable, given that you were raised by the...
	You know, Queen Hell Bitch of Crazy Town, right?
	So it's understandable that your map got reversed, but this is exactly why it's so important to not go, in my opinion, right?
	Yeah.
	Because you did get reversed here and you forgot your priorities, which I get you live the rest of your life and time as a parent, right?
	So this is, I think, even more important a sign as to what the choice should be, in my opinion.
	Yeah.
	I think you're right.
	Wow.
	And I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry about the whole deal.
	What was the wow?
	Well, just wow.
	Just how clear and simple it is to just think about what my daughter would want.
	Right.
	I mean, because I know I'm a better parent.
	I know I'm a good parent.
	But there is one other choice, which I'll just touch on very briefly, if you don't mind.
	Please.
	So, the other choice...
	Like rather than just sort of go and not go, the other choice is to dress up as the evil witch Maleficent, arrive in a thunderclap of like Storm Death Trooper metal music and put a vicious curse on everyone.
	I think I'll go with that one.
	And then leave through a portal in the ceiling with wires.
	There we go.
	I'm telling you that video would go viral.
	And you could make some YouTube cash out of that baby.
	Like, easy peasy.
	But you have to give on the full-on crazy town Angelina Jolie hips like you're going to shatter ice.
	Sorry, cheekbones like you're going to shatter ice.
	The whole full-on, full-on, like, screaming at everyone.
	Crazy Jane Crawford in drag impersonation.
	That would be my suggestion for plan B. Again, I think that your daughter would probably find that quite enjoyable in many ways.
	Oh, goodness.
	So, tidy that.
	File that under Plan B, if possible.
	Okay.
	Back up.
	All right.
	Yes, thank you so much.
	You're welcome.
	You're welcome.
	And, of course, as always, you know, it's true for all callers.
	Please drop us a line.
	Okay.
	And let us know how it goes.
	And when are you getting married?
	Next spring.
	Well, congratulations.
	Thank you.
	I think that's fantastic.
	Good for you.
	And is your daughter down with the guy?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Fantastic.
	Fantastic.
	All right.
	Well, I guess that's it for tonight's show.
	Mike, do we have anything else to add?
	No, I just, I do think it's an interesting observation.
	A couple of listeners have pointed it out that Savannah's fiance stayed with her for pretty much the whole call unsolicited by the sound of it.
	And the first caller is...
	Boyfriend ran screaming from the room at various occasions throughout the call as important issues were being discussed.
	Wait a minute.
	What do you mean ran screaming?
	Did he actually run?
	Did you hear something that I didn't?
	Did he actually run screaming from the room?
	I didn't know that he was running screaming, but he disappeared twice in the context of such an important conversation, which...
	Look, you don't know.
	He might have gone to the other room to watch the conversation over webcams.
	Right.
	So these are all things to consider when it comes to...
	Over which webcam stuff?
	Exactly.
	I don't know if she had any clothes on during the whole call.
	I mean, but anyway, so...
	No, I guess other than we're going to be in Detroit next week, fdrurl.com slash donate to help out the show, all of which is most hugely and greatly appreciated.
	I do want to thank the listeners that have specifically emailed me saying that they've donated to help me buy some pants, as I solicited in the previous show.
	That is much appreciated.
	Unfortunately, now I need a shirt to go with these pants.
	So if you can help out, fdrurl.com forward slash donate.
	Always appreciated.
	Yeah.
	And if you're going to get Mike something for which he has to go outside, make sure it's a Spanx under the shirt.
	Very, very, very important.
	And he can walk like John Wayne having been thrown from a horse.
	That's what I would recommend.
	All right.
	Well, thanks, everyone.
	I guess it's – look at that.
	It's midnight.
	It's Sunday.
	We did a whole Saturday to Sunday show.
	Have yourselves a wonderful, wonderful week, everyone.
	We will – we're doing a – oh, no.
	We're doing a show Wednesday?
	Yeah, we are.
	You're not leaving until Thursday, right?
	Sure.
	Wednesday nights.
	There's not going to be a Saturday show on the 28th because we'll be in Detroit, but then we'll pick up the normal schedule after that.
	Fantastic.
	All right.
	Have a great week, everyone.

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