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March 22, 2014 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:31:37
2645 Racism in America: Revisiting Zimmerman

Looking back at the George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin situation including: the importance of the law, teaching kids to confront people who are following you, Trayvon Martin's use of illicit substances, defining racism, racial profiling based on statistics and if you aren't black you just won't understand.

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Hi everybody, Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain Radio.
I have Bea, who is, I believe, just an initial...
I think you've called in to say that nobody has encapsulated the black experience quite like I have.
Was that the main content of your questions?
Yeah, and so I guess we're done then.
Yeah, so...
Yeah, that's right.
Word.
No, you had some questions, issues, criticisms with some of my Trayvon Martin coverage which basically was a way of trying to get a million people to see an anti-spanking message while levering on the back of a general social tragedy but you had some I think some good comments and criticisms and thanks a lot for obviously for your support of the show and you're interested in the show and of course thanks for taking the time to chat tonight.
Absolutely.
And I will say that, I mean, I definitely support the anti-spanking message.
And I guess that's why the whole thing sort of rubbed me the wrong way was because I felt that that message is going to Be unheard by people who probably need to hear it the most because some of the things in the podcast really made me feel some sort of way, if you will.
And so I had a hard time with it because I definitely was one of the people that was sort of sucked into the race baiting of it a little bit.
And so after I heard the podcast, it did bring to light a lot of things I didn't know and give me a different perspective on some of the issues.
But I still walked away with quite a few things that sort of were prickling at me.
So I sat down and really thought about it, and I just sort of wrote down a few things.
I don't know if you want to go down point by point or how you feel.
I also wanted to mention to my listeners that as a result of chemotherapy for cancer, I tragically recorded a racial video with no hair.
And that, you know, blue-eyed skinhead...
It was just a really unfortunate coincidence, and I hope that didn't color, so to speak, everyone's perceptions of it.
That was just sad, but true.
But yeah, we can go in order.
We can, you know, however you like.
Okay, and I will say, too, that I had listened to it initially on...
I listened to everything over...
My speaker through my phone, I just plug it into my car.
And so I went back recently and saw the video and I just did not realize how much of a toll that the medicine was taking on you.
So I would like to apologize.
I really, I guess like I'm a little desensitized when it comes to health and hospital stuff and all that jazz.
So just, you know, If my comments in any way upset you during such a difficult time, I do apologize.
No, not at all.
Look, it's probably easier for me to understand the black experience than it is for you to understand the no-hair experience.
Now, those who can't see the video, I can do 640 by 480, but B needs complete widescreen.
For the complete full-on ziggurat jerry-curled going on there.
I have a sideshow bob thing happening, in case they're wondering.
It's great hair.
Let me tell you, that is some great hair you got going on there.
My wife is Greek, so of course she has the hair-spolution going on.
But that's really, truly a magnificent mane, and I just wanted to mention that for those who are just listening to the audio.
So, okay, let's dive in and see what we can solve.
So, do you want to start with your first point?
Sure.
Okay.
My first point was, who cares about the law?
I said, I may be interpreting it wrong, but it comes across that you justify Zimmerman's actions because they are within the bounds of the law.
It was legal to profile him, legal to follow him, legal to kill him.
But how do you apply UPB to any of these things?
If we all followed whoever we felt looked suspicious, then why was it out of bounds for Trayvon Martin to have felt suspicious of an adult male who was following him?
Well, I mean, UPB has nothing in particular to say about feelings.
Oh, for those who don't know, UPB is universally preferable behavior.
It's a theory of ethics that I've been working on, which basically says ethical propositions have to be universalizable in order for them to be moral.
Sorry, that's really brief, but there's a whole book if people want to pursue it further, which you can get.
I'm sure Trayvon may have felt, and probably did, at least according to Gentile, I think, his female friend, He did feel anxious.
He did feel suspicious.
He did feel upset that Zimmerman was following him, which is perfectly fine.
I mean, I think I would probably feel a little under, too, if some guy was following me through the ring.
So that's perfectly fine.
He can feel upset.
You know, my sort of point was, you know, he can't turn around.
And, you know, if we accept Zimmerman's version of events, which is for the most part the only version that we know of, He can't punch him in the face.
He can't jump on him.
He can't pound his head against The sidewalk, he can't break his nose.
Those things.
Now, the law is something that has been co-opted by government.
But in common law, generally, there is a right to self-defense, which most libertarians and people accept.
So the first person to break the law, if the Zimmerman version is correct, was Trayvon Martin.
That is the government law.
But I think also a fairly rational legal system would hold that to be true as well.
So, yeah, he can feel upset and freaked out.
Initiate the use of force, right?
The non-initiation of the use of force.
Following someone is not, like on public property, on a sidewalk or something like that, is obviously not a violation.
I will sort of say, and I'm sorry to monopolize, I'll end in a sec.
Because people use the word stalking a lot with this.
And to my mind, stalking is sort of a repetitive thing.
You know, like you break up with the guy and, you know, he keeps phoning at 3 o'clock in the morning, stands outside your house with a boombox doing something.
Say anything.
Some Peter Gabriel number that gets old pretty quick, slashes your tires and whatever.
It's a repetitive, confining, invasive behavior.
The neighborhood watch guy following someone that he's concerned about is not quite the same as stalking he's following.
I'm not sure if that answers anything, but that's at least the first swing that I would take.
No, I got it.
Even since the point in which I initially saw the video to now, I've actually done a lot more reading up on UPB and trying to understand universally peripheral behavior as a system, sort of like scientific method of analyzing a particular premise.
Oh no, I think my video turned off.
Sorry about that.
Lost your video too, Steph.
Oh, Skype.
Do you want to, yeah, my video, I think both our videos just turned off.
Yeah, yours is still coming back.
There we go.
All right, let me restart the recorder here just to make sure it doesn't get wonky.
Okay.
Mike has a button whenever it looks like I might be losing a point, which cuts off everyone's video feed, which is obviously what we want.
That's what's going on.
Okay.
No, and I keep shaking my table.
Sorry.
You should be good.
All right.
Okay.
Yeah, I was just basically saying that, like, I get that the only premise that we can go from is George Zimmerman's.
But as far as the fact that we don't know the events, and that that is one side of the story, and that no matter what, we don't know what really happened.
It just seemed a little leading to start with the fact that Trayvon started it, basically.
So I guess that's where, since we didn't know, it seemed a little bit Because given the fact that, you know, I do believe that we should defend ourselves, I definitely believe in the non-aggression principle, but it just seems that, again, if we don't know who actually started it, considering that George Zimmerman was probably the one who amped up the situation to begin with, if you will, you know, The onus would be more on him, in my opinion.
But, you know, I think that's just one of those things where we just will never know.
Well, hang on a sec.
So when you say he amped up the situation, and again, I know we're theorizing here, but what do you mean when you say that he amped up the situation?
Because he was the one who started following the young man.
So I think that, you know, again, being a black person, we look at the guy's perspective because he can speak on it to say, you know, there were robberies.
You know, we'd already stopped somebody who was robbing a house.
I've tried to look out for my neighbors.
I'm on the neighborhood watch.
We understand that perspective.
But when it comes to Trayvon Martin, you know, and you see this grown man following you in a car and then getting out and following you on foot, you know, I can imagine that George Zimmerman's actions are what caused, perhaps, Trayvon to become rifled in the first place.
So, again, I don't want to get on the whole causality trail with that, but, you know, again, George Zimmerman started it technically, and then since we don't know exactly...
No, no, no.
Sorry, but this is where, I mean, this is where I think our perspectives diverge, because by started it, you know, again, following someone not against the law, and certainly that was his duty as the neighborhood watch, I don't know, captain, they use these sort of pseudo-military terms, but he didn't start it by following Him.
That was kind of his job, so to speak, as a neighborhood watch captain was to look out for people that he felt might be suspicious.
And so simply following him, and then as far as I understand it, returning to his car.
And again, as far as I understand it, and again, this is sort of hypothetical, that Trayvon Martin circled back when he could have gone home.
And so following the person is not starting it.
It's whoever threw the first punch.
It's whoever initiated the first Physical aggression.
Now, it seems unlikely that the guy with the gun did it.
I mean, it just does.
It's, you know, we've got the physical injuries that occurred to George Zimmerman, you know, lacerations on the back of the head, broken nose and stuff like that, or I think cracked nose, I don't know, whatever it was, right?
So it seems to me that There was physical violence first, and then there was a gunshot.
Because after the gunshot, he's not getting beaten up anymore, right?
So the beating up of him must have occurred before the gunshot.
So that must have been the case.
It seems to me pretty likely that Trayvon Martin was the one who initiated the beatdown.
Well, because there's no way to know, and because perhaps even if George Zimmerman was the first one to swing and miss, and that's why he doesn't have knuckle bruises, you know, we really don't know.
And I think because Trayvon Martin did not know that the gentleman had a gun until he saw his jacket open, according to George Zimmerman's own testimony, you know, even if Trayvon were to start it, it wasn't because, you know, I guess it wasn't because he didn't know the guy had a gun or I feel like you're saying, and I'm sorry, I'm getting very turned around.
I feel like you're saying because he had a gun, he wouldn't be the one to start it.
But because Trayvon did not know he had a gun, it's sort of like free range.
It wasn't up to him whether or not...
He could start it or not start it.
We really don't know.
And I'm very much tongue-tied.
We don't know for sure, right?
Because there's no eyewitness and there's no videotape.
But I think it's a very—you could be right.
There could have been a swing and a miss.
I mean, that could happen.
There could have been 10 swings and misses.
I mean, there could have been any number of things that could have happened.
But as far as what can be established, we know, of course, that Trayvon Martin had a history of fighting, or at least he claimed to have a history of physical fights.
But so did George Zimmerman as well.
I'm sorry?
So did George Zimmerman.
He had a history of spousal abuse and anger management problems.
So it's almost like you have a bull in a china shop situation here.
I mean, you know, again, we'll never know, but they were both obviously...
You know, men who were not, you know, capable of really controlling their tempers or emotions.
So, I mean, again, you know, one could have started it, one could have started it.
We just don't know.
So, again, to have that inability to say for sure and to have both types of personalities that are very A-type at the same and very, you know, hostile types, I guess, that's where, again, I feel like we just can't We can't lead into, because George Zimmerman said he started it, then we have to assume that he did, and then it's okay for him to defend himself in that right, because we just don't know.
But the physical evidence does support Zimmerman's...
It doesn't prove, right?
I mean, there's no proof in these kinds of situations without video cameras or eyewitnesses.
But the physical evidence does support Certainly, there's no physical evidence that I know of that contradicts Zimmerman's story.
Again, it doesn't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, which is why sort of reasonable doubt is inferred, or the standard.
But there's no physical evidence that counteracts it, and there's lots of physical evidence that supports it.
Again, do we know for sure?
Of course not.
But I would lean towards more that side, because I'm an empiricist.
I really don't care what people say.
I care sort of what the...
The empirical evidence is, and the empirical evidence does seem to support that he had the physical wounds.
Martin's friend, John Teel, said that she thought he'd thrown the first punch.
Didn't she say, go beat him up or go smack him down or something like that?
She felt that he'd thrown the first punch.
Zimmerman had all of the injuries, and the shot ended it, and Trayvon Martin, other than the gunshot wound, was unharmed.
So it does seem to kind of fit.
Again, we don't know for sure.
Yeah, I understand.
And I guess I definitely don't want to beg the question or beat a dead horse, but I mean, I think you see where my perspective is on that, just since we don't know, you know, obviously, okay.
Like, just because Trayvon might have had the upper hand doesn't mean, again, that he started it.
Well, and remember, the verdict is not innocent.
I mean, he was not declared innocent.
He was declared not guilty.
And what that means, of course, is that there was nothing under the law that could convict him of murder.
Now, that doesn't mean that he didn't do anything wrong.
That doesn't mean even that he may not have murdered Trayvon Martin.
He may have, but it's not guilty under the law.
It doesn't mean sort of innocent of all wrongdoing.
No, I understand.
Honestly, even looking at the law, it doesn't even...
I guess I don't even bring that into my purview because, again, I'm more interested in empiricism as well.
That's definitely more my thought.
So looking at NAP, given, again, that self-defense is sort of the rule, I agree that it would be more on the who started it thing.
So that's where, again, since we don't know, that's where I'm sort of at with the NAP. But when it comes to the law as a whole, Absolutely.
I don't have any problem with the way the verdict was given.
I don't have any problem with how everything was set up.
If anything, it was unusual that the case was a murder trial, because obviously, even if you're following someone, it's not like you sat down and planned and plotted to kill this young man.
It was a spur-of-the-moment situation.
It seems like That the prosecutor should have given some sort of a manslaughter plea or something of that nature, but to go straight to murder, it's almost like it was lost before it was begun.
But not first degree, if I remember right.
No, definitely not first degree.
Right, right.
So, I mean, I think, again, it sort of was set up to fail, but I honestly don't really have any Thoughts about the aftermath of it because, again, I think everything was fine when it comes to the legality.
I think everything was fine when it comes to the verdict.
It's just a matter of, I guess, the fact that, you know, I understand that the media puts out this image of, like you said, a cherubic young boy and that he's an angel and he really did have these problems.
And I appreciated you bringing those things to light.
But I guess when it comes to down to the empiricism of it, that we don't know who actually started it.
And the fact that ultimately a person, you know, lost their life from all of this, that's really the horrible thing.
And I guess when it comes to the fact that, you know, we do have to tear down these, I guess, images that the media tries to make us see of this evil, you know, George Zimmerman and this angelic young boy, I appreciate that.
But it's almost like in doing so, we sort of set our own selves, I guess, set up the African American community to feel like you're Being damaging to, I guess, the whole case or having a little less sympathy than you should about the fact that somebody was killed.
You know, those are the types of things that I think are inferred from the video or from this type of podcast.
So even though, again, I think there are things that are great about it.
And not to say that you shouldn't bring those things to light, but it's almost like, how do we address the truth of a situation without I guess disenfranchising an entire race, if you will.
But what does, I mean, and this is something that I, you know, I'm genuinely curious about.
What does the actions of Trayvon Martin have to do with the African American community as a whole?
And I'm willing to be completely schooled on this.
But, you know, most of the people who are screwing up the world Are, you know, rich, privileged white people.
It doesn't have anything to do with me.
You know, like the people in charge of the Fed, I mean, they might as well take a giant thumbnail of a white person, you know, put a slightly different haircut on them and just show the same picture over and over again.
Most statists in the West are white.
I think most of the people who are military commanders are white.
And so the fact that they do unbelievably heinous and immoral stuff You know, all the people, I guess, with the exception of Barack Obama, who've declared war on the part of America, or even worse, not declared war, but gone to war anyway, they're all white.
But what would that have to do with me?
I mean, that's sort of what I'm trying to understand, right?
I mean, I can oppose these people and just think that they're completely heinous, but I don't identify them as part of my tribe, so to speak.
Are you talking about, like, black people or people who...
Are, who would be, I guess, affected by this particular case.
Yeah, what you were saying, sort of this reflection on the, or a connection with the African American community as a whole.
I mean, I'm not, I'm still trying to sort of figure out, you know, I dislike statism and I dislike religion.
And most of the people who practice statism, at least in the West, are white.
But their actions don't, Like, they don't have anything to do with me, just because I happen to share a skin tone, if that makes sense.
So, I'm trying to sort of understand why it becomes such a flashpoint for the African-American community.
You know, lots of whites commit crimes and so on.
I mean, what does that really have to do with me?
I mean, because they're just other white people.
I understand.
And I think there's two parts to that.
I think you have, unfortunately, the fact that the media does do the race baiting thing.
It does play up the fact that we're all in this together, that one slight against one is a slight against many, that sort of thing.
I think that's a huge part of it, but also you have the secondary element of reality that because a store owner might have been robbed by a Black person, suddenly he does see every Black person as a thief.
Or because you're raised to be distrustful of Black people that all Black people aren't worthy of your trust.
So it's almost like what happens to one happens to many in the African American community.
No, but it's not...
I'm sorry, again, I don't mean to interrupt you while you're explaining the black experience to me, but it's not all black people.
And I got representative of...
No, no, no, I get that.
There's not a million people or a billion people behind you who are like, tell them this, tell them this, tell them that.
No, no, I get that.
It's not black people.
I mean, you know, as I pointed out in the video, if some 70-year-old black woman in a wheelchair had been wheeling her way along, he wouldn't be calling the cops and saying, I think there's a break-and-enter artist who's out there, right?
I mean, it's not...
It's not like, well, as a store owner gets robbed by a young black man in a hoodie, let's, you know, take the complete cliche, right?
A young black man in a hoodie with the pumped up kicks and the pants hanging down and, you know, the back, like as much as you can, the biggest thug cliche that you can come up with, let's say that the store owner is robbed by that.
Young black man, it's not like, oh my god, if Morgan Friedman comes into my store, I'm going to throw myself on all my valuables and make sure that they...
That's not...
If Bill Cosby comes in, I'm going to get the security on the guy, right?
It's going to be other people who come in with the same markers of...
Criminal sympathies, right?
If you come in with those, like if I walk down Harlem with some swastika and a KKK hat, I mean, it's not, and I say, well, they just beat me up because I'm white.
It's like, no, they didn't beat me up because I'm white.
They beat me up because I have these markers that are predatory and dangerous.
So it's not the blackness.
It's all of the presentation and, of course, the tragic concentration of crime among young black...
Sorry, go ahead.
No, you would think that.
And that's absolutely right in the capacity that, you know, I'm sure the black person with the hoodie and all that is definitely going to be more suspicious.
But, you know, me...
Just, I mean, if anybody's looking, I don't think that I look like a thug.
I don't appear to be a robber.
I'm not a rapist, obviously.
My boyfriend may beg to differ.
But anyway, I definitely feel like I'm a very nice person.
I'm very eloquent.
I'm polite.
And I still get the same sort of treatment.
Very frequently.
So it's almost like, you know, being black is one of those markers, unfortunately.
And so what I mean by, you know, what happens to what happens to many, and that's kind of what the media feeds on, but it's almost like...
You know, when you watch the news and you see that a black person, you know, robbed a store or beat up somebody, it's almost like the entire black community in that area knows that we have to sort of think for the white people in that community for a while until this kind of calms down.
Or it's just, it's always like...
Sorry, I just, I want to make sure I understand that last point.
You said sort of think for the white community?
Yeah.
Like, there's a matter, I guess, of perception that...
Maybe it's just different between black and white people.
We have to consciously think of how we present ourselves, and then we also have to consciously think of how we're seen by others to a degree that I think other races don't really have to consider.
So, like, you know, I'll give you a good example.
My boyfriend's British, and I went to England.
You lucky, lucky lady.
I am.
I love him in pieces.
But I went to England, and And I went to H&M and I bought something.
The next day I wanted to take it back.
So I took the bag and I went right up to the front and I said, here you go.
Here's my bag.
I want to go get a return or something to return.
And she was like, oh, well, why are you giving me your bag?
And I was like, well, you don't want to hold it up front because you don't think I'm going to steal something and put it in the bag while I'm shopping?
And that's literally what was going through my mind.
I was dumbfounded that they weren't Suspicious of me just because I was Black.
And I guess, you know, they're a little more advanced than we are, but unfortunately in America, especially, they wouldn't have batted an eye.
They would have expected me to come up and put my bag up.
And if I didn't, then you better believe they're going to be on the camera.
They're going to be following behind me.
Me!
You know, I don't wear hoodies.
I don't, you know, smoke weed.
I've never smoked weed.
Never done anything in my life to cause that sort of scrutiny.
And I still get it just because I'm Black.
I don't know the statistics about this, but what are the statistics for black female shoplifters?
I don't know.
I have no idea.
I know something about the, you know, again, the tragic and horrible over-representation of young black males in violent crimes and so on.
So I don't know.
I mean, if stores, if there are a lot of black female shoplifters, I don't know, maybe there are, maybe there aren't, in which case there would be a certain element of caution.
And of course, the more sophisticated the black female shoplifters Or the white female shoplifter would be, the more they would dress up and try and camouflage.
You know, this kind of stuff, right?
So, I mean, the thing that drove me nuts about the Zimmerman case as well was that nobody sort of pointed out that Zimmerman was kind of right.
You know, insofar as...
He had been in possession of stolen goods.
He did have lock picks and screwdrivers and stuff for breaking into people's houses.
He had been caught with drugs.
And one of the great tragedies, this whole thing could have been prevented if The evidence of his criminal activities, of Trayvon Martin's criminal activities, had been turned over to the police.
Because then the police would have pursued it, and he wouldn't have been kicked out of school.
But instead of turning things over to the police, they kicked him out of school, which is why he was in that gated community to begin with.
Because they don't want to, I don't know, pump up the stats for young black males.
I don't know what the reasoning is, why that would be different.
It's not a school matter.
Like, once you break the law, it's a matter for the police, not for the school administration.
But, you know, they say, well, it was so unjust of him to profile and so on.
But he was actually kind of correct.
I mean, if you were to put together a composite of somebody you would kind of want to watch, it would be that guy.
And again, the black thing is maybe one small element of it, given the amount of break-ins that occurred in the community, which had been the result of young black men.
But he was kind of right.
That is someone that's worth watching.
You know, if he had been in a three-piece suit, you know, with reading a computer magazine or something, whatever it was, right, then that would be probably a kind of a different matter.
But...
He was, you know, slouching along between the houses in a hoodie, in a tropical climate in a hoodie.
It's not like, you know, and right.
So so there was something around him that was alarming and it kind of was his job to do that.
So, yeah.
And I'm sorry.
Look, I think your experiences.
I mean, I remember when I was in college.
I was part of a group and we put together some educational information and campaigns to try to educate men about how scary we are to women at night.
And so a woman who's walking down the street, we were sort of trying to explain, look, I mean, cross the street so that you're like, don't walk up to the woman and say, hey, I'm not a threat.
I'm not a threat.
Can I walk you home?
It's like, yeah, yeah, that would be great.
If you could just find out where I live, a stranger in the night, that would be fantastic, right?
So we put that information out to sensitize men to the degree to which men are like race irrelevant, right?
Men are scary to women out there walking, you know, in campus, right?
Walking around the campus alone at night, you know, they go to a bar or a party or whatever.
And I don't remember men saying, you know, that's incredibly offensive to me.
I'm not a rapist.
Well, of course you're not a rapist.
I mean, the number of men who rape is tiny relative to the male population as a whole.
But nonetheless, you know, I mean, it's important to know how you present yourself and to know.
So, I mean, as a, you know, when I was a young man, nobody thinks I'm too old for that now anymore.
But when I was a young man, there was all of that kind of stuff floating around.
I don't remember sort of feeling like this is a massive slight against me as a man.
There's a children's entertainment group called the Wiggles, and they do this little dance when they meet kids.
And the reason they do that, they've explained, is so that no parent can accuse them of touching their children.
Why?
Because there's this horrible prejudice against men.
If you like to be around kids, you must be a pedophile.
It's just one of these things that...
I think that goes fairly far.
Too far, obviously.
There are, of course, female pedophiles and so on as well.
But there's lots of this kind of profiling that occurs, and sometimes it's correct and sometimes it's not, but we do have to kind of aggregate threat measurements as a species, right?
I mean, and as you know, I mean, the statistics for young black violence is just horrendous, right?
So 2007, the blacks committed 433,934 crimes against whites, which was eight times the 55,685 crimes Committed against blacks by whites, by whites.
Interracial rape is almost exclusively black and white, with 14,000 assaults on white women by African Americans in 2007.
Not one case of white sexual assault on a black female was found in the FBI study and so on.
And these are facts that, you know, horrible and tragic.
I don't claim to know the cause or necessarily the cure, although I think that peaceful parenting would be...
I've got to put the pitch in.
I have to put the pitch in.
No, we know.
I agree.
Yeah.
But these are facts that everybody, and my God, I mean, if you think that whites are frightened by blacks, as you know, blacks are terrified.
I mean, because blacks suffer more at the hands of blacks than whites do, right?
Yeah, you get that a lot.
You definitely hear that a lot.
But I liked your argument about the black on black crime thing.
Like, you know, of course, there's gonna be more black on black crime.
It's interesting to hear those statistics, though.
But I mean, I definitely understand that those are factors in people's perception of black culture as a whole.
But I guess that's where I don't know.
I guess that's where I really want to be more about trying to find a solution to that as opposed to, again, disenfranchising the community that needs to hear it.
That's definitely my entire, I guess, goal with even discussing this was because I think that there are those few points where it's like, okay, well, again, we don't know.
And just like you said, a man is intimidating following anyone, not just a woman.
So imagine you're a 17-year-old kid with a guy following you.
You're going to be A little suspicious.
You know, is he a rapist?
Is he going to try to steal me?
Is he going to try to get me arrested?
Is he going to try to assume I'm doing something wrong?
We really don't know.
But the same way that, you know...
It's something that women need to look out for, that a man should understand how he's perceived by someone else.
You know, maybe George Zimmerman didn't understand how he was being perceived by Trayvon Martin.
So, sort of the same thing, I guess.
But I get what you're saying.
I think we're on the same page on a lot of things.
You want me to...
Oh, go ahead.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, yeah.
Let's do...
I mean, obviously, this is like...
First of all, it's a great discussion.
And We could talk about this point all night, but if we hit the other points and then we can circle back as well, if you like.
Okay.
And the second one was just about sort of how I think children are taught to actually confront people who are following them.
When I was in school, I was told, you know, don't.
Don't necessarily engage with the person, but if somebody's following you, that you want to turn around and say, hey, what do you want?
Hey, can I help you?
What do you want?
Like, to let them know that you're there.
Stranger danger!
Stranger danger!
Yeah, but to acknowledge that, you know, I see you, I can see your face, I can recall your face in a lineup, you know, I'm not afraid of you, you know, that sort of a thing.
And a lot of stuff I've heard from, like, my mom, my mom would say, you know, cross the street, go around a corner, go into a building, but that additional piece, I think, was something I definitely learned in school.
And so, again, I don't know, you know, I don't know, we don't know if Trayvon I don't know if that wasn't considered or...
Or how you feel about that.
I don't know if that's something...
He may well have.
You know, he may well have.
And that may have been the right thing to do.
As far as I understood it, he could have easily made it home, which would probably be the safest thing to do.
But maybe he felt there was responsibility of some creepy guys around the neighborhood that you turn and you, you know, confront him.
Maybe that happened.
Again, we won't know for sure.
Maybe he did that.
But this is what's so frustrating and why I keep calling it a tragedy is all of this stuff was so preventable, right?
Yeah.
So, you know, Trayvon Martin's dad lives in the complex.
Trayvon Martin's dad knows that George Zimmerman is the neighborhood watch captain, that there have been a lot of break-ins.
He knows that his son has been in trouble with the law.
He knows that he likes to wear hoodies.
He knows that he's got this kind of thug look going on.
So, you know, first thing you do, or maybe fifth thing you do after you say, hey, you know, don't like Skittles in the future, right?
You go and you introduce this guy and say, hey, you know, this is my son.
He's staying with us for a while.
His name is Trayvon and blah, blah, blah, right?
That's, you know, I think a useful thing to do in a place where there's been a lot of young black males breaking into people's houses and so on.
You would go and introduce that kid or the kid could say he wouldn't.
So then he would know that there's always a neighborhood watch guy, right?
You would explain to your kid that there's a neighbor, even if you didn't introduce him.
to George Zimmerman, you'd say, "Hey, Trayvon, you know, there's this neighborhood watch program going on.
So if people are going to ask you, they're going to follow you, they're going to, you know, whatever it is, right?
Maybe dress down the thug thing for a bit because, you know, people are a little sensitive about that right now.
And you can, you know, the guy's name is George.
So, you know, if, if, If you see some guy following you who's, you know, a Pillsbury Doughboy, Hispanic-looking fella, then you say to him, hey, George, you know, I know who you are.
My dad lives here.
He's right.
You know, there's so many things that could have happened if people had been more proactive or recognizing where these intersections of risks can align in terrifying ways.
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
I mean, I think from all of this, hopefully, if we learn those lessons, then again, it would be a preventable sort of thing.
And I'll move on.
And I hate that blacks have to do that.
No, I mean, I really, I hate, I mean, there are so many really nice, honorable, virtuous, great black people.
I mean, of course it's a minority, within a minority, right, that is tarring, probably the wrong expression, is changing everyone.
Sorry.
Mike, edit out the tarring.
No, but it's coloring.
No, no, that's not right.
No, no, that's not right either.
Help me, B, help me!
I'm falling down a pit of contact.
Reflecting, reflecting poorly.
There is, I guess, a very prominent group of dysfunctional blacks that is causing a lot of blacks to have to be sort of proactive in that way.
I hate that that's happening.
You know, it is a reality that I think needs to be dealt with.
I mean, I don't think that I can dress however I want with no negative consequences.
You know, like I get some giant tattoo KKK on my forehead and then have trouble getting work as a temp at the NAACP. I'm not going to sit there and say, well, you know, it's terrible racism, right?
There are consequences to sartorial choices, I guess you could say.
Right.
And I think it's terrible.
I think it's terrible that you go up to a store and just automatically think you have to hand your bag in.
I mean, I think that's absolutely ratchet.
I really do, because, you know, you're a fantastic person.
I didn't even think about it until I got into a situation where, you know, the stakes were different, or where that perception was different.
And so I think that's one of the things that, unfortunately, you know, we get kind of mired in it.
Like, I've It doesn't occur to me.
Even what you're saying about crossing the street as a man, I naturally do that as a black person, or as a cognizant black person, I guess.
And unfortunately, that might have been something...
Wait, you crossed the street because...
A group of people, especially white people, honestly, coming toward me or walking behind me or in front of me or I think I might be scary to them in some way, I'll get out of their way rather than, you know, get my feelings hurt by watching them grab their purse or something like that.
I'm really quick to let an elevator go just so I can get on a different one.
I mean, it's really...
It's really kind of sad, you know, when you think about it, but honestly, those are things that I don't even think about until, again, I'm in a situation where I recognize that that's unusual, you know?
And there is, you know, I mean, there's this terrible thing that Joe Biden, when he was running as Barack Obama's running mate, said that Barack Obama was going to succeed because he was articulate and clean.
And it's like, are you kidding me?
Are you seriously kidding me?
He's articulate?
And he's been hosed off at some point over the last week?
That's what...
I don't know.
If I took things collectively, I'd be embarrassed for whites.
But anyway, let's...
Do you want to move on to your next thing?
Yeah, we can do that.
Let's see.
I said, come on, Eileen.
I researched Lane myself as I'd never even heard of it before this video.
It's most commonly made with cough syrup, Sprite, and Jolly Rancher candies, not carbonated watermelon drink and Skittles.
Usually a soda of some sort is used because the carbonation helps in mixing.
Lean can be enhanced by adding melted down Jolly Ranchers to the mixture.
Nowhere that I've seen outside of the Republican pro-Zimmerman NRA sites mention Skittles.
If his friend had the cough syrup, it would make more sense that he would have purchased some sort of soda in Jolly Ranchers, which were undoubtedly available at the gas station as well.
So even if he tried to do lean in the past or was planning, even if he was planning to make it again, the evidence would suggest that this was not the purpose of this trip to the store.
And I would have guessed maybe Munchies, if we're going to go with the drug route, maybe he was trying to break away for some boredom, maybe he had an argument, maybe he really was just trying to do a nice thing for his brother.
But it just seemed a bit inflammatory to propagate the theory that he was on a bender or that he was getting those items to...
Do lean or because he was on lean?
Right.
No, and I think I said in the video very clearly that it's a possibility, that it's certainly not a proven thing, but he had done lean in the past.
These are ingredients which can be used for it, and it's one possibility.
And of course, one of the reasons why that is important is that it can, use of lean can provoke Dissociative or psychotic or altered states of consciousness more susceptible to paranoia.
Again, these aren't proofs, and this certainly, you know, if Zimmerman started it, it wouldn't absolve him of anything, but it certainly is a possibility which had been nowhere discussed as a possibility, which I think is...
You know, again, it's no proof, we can't know for sure, but he certainly had done this drug in the past that lead according to his own admission.
These are ingredients which can be used for it, you know, and I think I did say there's no proof that he did, but it's a possibility.
But I think it's something that needs to be talked about.
I mean, another thing that I found kind of strange was, if I remember rightly, and it's been a long time since I've looked at the case in any detail, but if I remember rightly, he went Early in the evening to go and get this stuff, I think it was like a mile either way.
I mean, first of all, I mean, maybe drive.
I don't know if his dad had a car or not.
He's 17, he could probably drive.
Take an umbrella, you know, better than a hoodie.
Take the gayest umbrella you could find.
Take umbrellas with Marilyn Monroe on one side and Audrey Hepburn on the other and a poodle, like a pink poodle with a full-on Elton John hairdo.
I mean, that would be my suggestion.
But he went off doing the stuff.
I don't think his parents or his dad contacted the police until late the next day.
I mean that to me, you know, my daughter's heading out to get something a mile away if she's not back in half an hour.
I'm like, let's go find himself or whatever, right?
But that seems to me to sort of indicate that there may have been some sort of conflict.
Now, the conflict, of course, happens in all families.
But again, it would sort of speak to somebody being in a bad mood.
And again, a bad mood is not any reason to get shot, but it does sort of testify to state of mind.
Of course, as you point out, Zimmerman has been accused of wife beating as well.
Which is such a, you know, vicious and cowardly thing to do.
I wouldn't imagine him necessarily picking on a fairly strapping 17-year-old.
But anyway, I think, yeah, I think the lean point is well taken.
There is no proof.
But I do think that it is something to remember.
Though, again, it doesn't convict or prove anything.
But it is something that may help put some things in context.
Is it proof?
No.
And I think I sort of said that in the video.
But it may not be entirely irrelevant to one possibility.
Right.
Or even understanding this young man's true personality, which I agree with, and I appreciate you bringing it out, because again, I hadn't considered those things before.
It's sad, like when you mentioned his parents, you know, like that's who I'm kind of jumping down to.
You know, off gate.
Like, you know, how do you have a child who was stealing in the first place or wanting to do drugs in the first place or had to be taken out of a situation in the first place?
So it's, you know, and like you said, for him to have been missing that long, I did not realize it was that long before he called the police.
That's, like, that just speaks to How this young man was in the particular situation he was in the first place, which is kind of sad.
I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just gave this talk to like a thousand high school students, so I won't give you the whole talk, but these pretty extreme drug concoctions, again, we can toss out that night as unproven, but You know, when he says, nigger want a plant, my favorite comment was, and I don't think he means a hydrangea, right?
But I mean, if he is self-medicating because of, well, the theory seems to be that people self-medicate with extreme drug concoctions because of early childhood trauma.
And can I just share to you one really weird possibility?
Sure.
Which I've always hesitated to bring up because it's such an out there theory.
Okay, go for it.
Okay, let me just share this with you.
This is complete conjecture.
It makes everything else that's half-assed and half-researched on mine look like a theory of physics, right?
Okay.
But let me tell you one thing that would make the whole thing make sense to me, though never be excused, right?
Now, I don't know the truth of any of these accusations because I'm simply repeating them from what other people have said.
But as far as I understood it, Zimmerman was accused of molestation.
Yes.
By one of his relatives, female relatives.
Now, do you know what I think could have been a really strange but powerful flashpoint for violence in this situation be?
Let's say that the accusation put against Zimmerman by his, I think it was a female cousin or something like that, was correct, that he did do the crimes that She accuses him of.
Let's say that Trayvon Martin had been the victim of sexual abuse as well, which is why he had such an extreme desire.
The stereotypical manliness.
It's not even stereotypical.
It's more like Hyper-masculinity, you know, of fighting and his hair-trigger temper and also the need to self-medicate with these extreme drugs, which would come out of significant childhood trauma.
We know that one in five boys is sexually molested, one in three girls.
Let's say that, and I'm just, again, this is all mad theory, right?
But let's say that in a moment, the victim of childhood sexual abuse, Javon Martin, Looked into the eyes of George Zimmerman, an accused child molester, and they had this electric current passed between them.
That's where the violence came from.
Like a recognition, one of those Malcolm Gladwell blink moments where you really see someone really deep and he saw the same look or the same something about him that reminded him of how he'd been abused.
It's one possibility that this is where this attack might have come from.
And how it might have escalated to that degree.
That's actually...
Again, it's completely...
It's a wild ass supposition and not based on much of anything.
But it's one of these things that if we knew the truth about everyone, nothing would be a mystery.
But we have all these mysteries because we don't know the truth about people's experiences so often.
Anyway, sorry.
That's just a complete conjecture.
No, I... I could totally see that, especially where I am in your podcast series is on the one on, I'm on like 1120.
And it's just wrapping up the one where you were talking about like child abuse, sexual child abuse, and reading the article.
You had the computer voice read the article because it was so difficult to get through about just how often children are sexually abused or molested.
And it's sad, you know.
I'm very happy that I can honestly say that's never happened to me, but I can't imagine how that would have felt for him or for anyone.
Yeah, I agree.
Even though it's conjecture, I could see how it's plausible.
These are the kinds of explanations that would make sense if we had the facts.
We don't.
We can conjecture.
But anyway, so do you want to move on to the next?
Sure.
Okay, so I said racism define...
It also seems that you exonerate George Zimmerman from being a racist because he has friends who are African American and he assisted black children.
Now that we assisted black children.
Okay.
Sorry.
Anyway, I know the textbook definition of racism, but amongst people who are more susceptible to it, it's better defined as actions that cause another to feel that they are perceived as being of lesser value due to the color of their skin.
That's what it feels like when you're asked to have So I said it's not racist in the definitive sense when things happen.
I was saying how I was at a yoga class and I was waiting for a teacher to come out and this woman comes out first and she sees me and pulls the door shut like, you know, I need to make sure this person can't get inside and double checks the lock and all that Like, I'm going to come in and, you know, rob a yoga class.
But that's the kind of stuff that happens.
So, you know, even though that's not...
Well, I mean, obviously, if you were, I mean, that's where the money is.
Exactly.
You know, they've got it all.
I mean, they just hoard it like a gold dragon.
Maybe CrossFit, I could understand, but yoga.
So I said, basically, you know...
That's not necessarily racist.
You know, she didn't call me a nigger and, you know, say she's the Dragon Master or whatever, but just the way I felt from it, I felt she was being racist.
And so, you know, when we're talking about the whole podcast as a whole, it's just like...
I don't know.
I felt like you sort of took a stance where it's like, well, like you said, even before, like all you had to do was not wear a hoodie.
All you have to do is, you know, wear, you know, bring a funny umbrella, you know, and it's funny and that's, you know, that's, it's comical, but at the same time, it's kind of true.
It's sad that those are kind of the things that we do have to do to ease that perception.
This is because there's this fairly statistically terrifying wave of violence coming largely out of young black men.
Other young black men who are honorable and decent and great human beings that you'd love to have house sit for you, whatever, they do have to recognize that this is...
As a young man, I was aware that women on campus tend to be attacked by young men, right?
And so I had to sort of be, I mean, if I wanted to be sensitive to the statistical reality that I ever attack a woman, of course not, right?
No impulse to, no desire to, it's not an urge I have to resist.
So, but I'm aware that this is the demographics that I'm facing, right?
So to be sensitive to that reality is important, right?
So if I wolf whistle at a woman at two o'clock in the morning, she's going to be scared.
Now I can say, look, I'm just showing my appreciation for her attractiveness and so on.
But I know, even though I'm not part of the demographic that women should be as scared of, In my own mind, I know that for women as a whole, I am part of the demographic when I was a young man that they would be scared of.
And so to adjust my behavior, to reassure women, to put space, to cross the street, to hang back, to whatever, right, is important.
And there is, of course, statistically, you know, these are government statistics, and we all know that, you know, government...
Is not always the most reliable.
There's some reliability around this, right?
And there is, I can give the sources here, right?
So in New York, from January to June 2008, 83% of all gun assailants were black, according to witnesses and victims, right?
So this is, and of course, a lot of these would be black and Hispanic witnesses and victims.
Blacks are only 24% of the population.
They're 83% of all gun assailants.
Blacks and Hispanics together accounted for 98% of all gun assailants.
49 out of every 50 muggings and murders in the Big Apple were the work of black or Hispanic criminals.
Again, the facts are the facts.
The causes and solutions are obviously complex and challenging.
But this is the reality that, you know, honorable, decent blacks and Hispanics are born into.
That there's a lot of pretty horrible behavior occurring out of these communities.
And that is a reality.
And again, to say, well, I should be able to do whatever I want, of course, in an ideal world.
But if blacks and Hispanics are acting differently with regards to crime, Then that's something that can't be hidden from everyone, you know, because people are victims of this.
And again, to be completely fair and fair-minded, it is the black and Hispanic community by far that is receiving the brunt of this aggression.
But this is a reality.
If this wave of violence is coming out of certain sections of the black community, We can't wish it away.
We can grapple it.
We can wrestle with it.
We can try and find the causes.
We can work together.
All decent people can work together to try and find the solutions.
But the fact is the fact that this is a lot of people's experience.
This is what the statistics say.
And therefore, I think decent blacks have to say, look, I can't address that part.
I can't put out those signals because this is not...
It's not just racism that people are scared of young black men who have certain ways of presenting themselves, if that makes sense.
I understand.
And I guess if I were to take that statistic of the 24% of the population is black, but 83% of blacks are pinpointed as the assailants, out of that 24%, let's say, you know, Hypothetically, that 83% is still only 3% or 4% or 5% of that 24%.
Out of the 24% of the whole population, again, like you said, a smaller minority of that minority, even though they're, I guess, the assailants in most of those situations, it's still just a small percentage of that minority.
Minority.
So if you'll consider that, and then if you'll think about the fact that, like you said, if you're on campus and a woman sees you, then just consider how it feels, though, when the woman looks at you and crosses the street or behaves differently.
What I'm trying to say really is that If I were you and a woman crossed the street and made an assumption about me based on a small minority of a minority, then I would feel she was being sexist.
But it's not about me.
She doesn't even know me.
What she's doing is working the averages, right?
Yeah.
No, I get it.
It's not personal to me because she doesn't know me at all.
So I know that she's in no danger from me, but she doesn't know that.
Sorry, go ahead.
Even as a black person, when people cross the street, it might hurt my feelings, but it doesn't faze me.
I don't take it personally.
But all I'm saying is that I think that I'm probably a minority of that minority of that minority.
I know not to take it personally.
You're an atom, is what you're telling me.
I got it.
We have now subdivided everything so much.
I think we're actually just two electrons at this point.
We've actually gone subatomic.
We're quarks or something like that.
Right.
Just dark matter.
No pun intended.
Anyways.
Now you got me doing it.
Okay.
But all I'm saying is that, again, what you asked me earlier is why is that the case?
I think That's kind of what the media hypes up.
That's kind of what most black people sort of feel when those things happen.
So when something like this whole situation blew up, that's why you have people saying, well, now I have to make sure my son doesn't get shot by a white person or whatever, because they don't understand that It's not personal.
This is an isolated situation.
Or, you know, that there's a small minority of people doing these things, but since it's, you know, reflects on us as a whole, we do have to, you know, present ourselves differently, or we do have to try to find the root causes of it.
It's definitely not, it doesn't make anyone who's a minority, I guess, solution-oriented.
The media and I guess just situational things and tradition and how families are structured, it tends to be where, I'll say we, where we take it personally, where we do start to think it could happen to us, where we do start to fear that we have to look over our shoulders even more.
So again, I totally understand.
I don't take it personally, but I think that's the problem, is that it is taken personally.
Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about this when I was reading up your questions.
Like, I mean, I don't mean to shock you.
You're on podcast 1100.
I'm actually an anarchist.
Right?
So, like, I'm an atheist.
I'm an anarchist.
I'm for voluntary families and all this kind of, like, really, you know, shocking.
And when you see anarchists on the news with, like, You know, A's.
You know, they've got so much facial piercings, it looks like they fell down a flight of stairs carrying a tackle box.
And it's like, oh man, can you please stop doing that?
Just please, please don't be the atheist with all the tattoos.
Like, just don't be...
So I know that the ideas that I'm presenting are so shocking and startling to people.
That I'm aware that this is the way I have to present myself.
For those who can't see the video, I'm drawing a near-perfect square.
I have to present myself as unthreatening, as conventional as possible, because I'm aware of how the arguments that I make land for other people.
And I'm sorry that there are these idiot Anarchists, atheists out there who are, you know, and libertarians do it sometimes too, just the way that they present themselves.
You know, you don't need nine guns to go to dinner.
You know, maybe legally you can carry them, you know, and please don't play into the stereotypes.
I know.
I know.
So, and of course, atheists, man, I mean, atheists face massive discrimination in society.
I mean, don't talk to me, soul sister, man, oh man.
Well, I guess I don't know if you're an atheist too.
Right, imagine me, yes, as a black woman, atheist, anarchist, yes.
Black female anarchist atheist, you're like an SNL diversity skit, you know?
Like, we can cross off all four boxes and just hire this woman no matter what we do.
Right?
But I mean, so yeah, you know, I mean, that the layers of prejudice, you know, there are still laws on the books that forbid atheists from holding office in six states.
Imagine if six states still said, well, if you're black, sorry, you can't run for it, you can't, you know, you have to swear an oath saying I'm white.
I mean, it would just be...
Anyway, so you know the layers and layers that go on.
But I'm just sort of aware of the general societal prejudice.
And I can, if I want, pretend that that prejudice...
However, you know, I don't know, maybe a lot of atheists do eat babies.
I don't know.
I haven't really done the research.
I don't know.
Maybe anarchism does mean those who throw garbage cans through the windows of Starbucks.
I don't know.
But...
I mean, I'm just aware of that, you know, wanting to change things.
I just know how it is that I have to present, which is why I do lots of videos on race when I have no hair.
Anyway, that was just an unfortunate coincidence.
Should we move on to your next question?
Absolutely.
And honestly, that's all I'm trying to say is that you have that understanding of anarchy, of atheism.
Just apply that same thing to being Black and how that can, I guess, affect perception sometimes.
That's really the whole point of that.
And even the next one that I was thinking...
Wait, wait, wait.
Okay, hopefully we can do one more show.
Let me tell you the next question I want to ask.
How is it that black people take white people's Christianity as their liberation ideology?
We'll get back to that, because I can't follow that.
Yeah, we can have a follow-up on that.
Let's worship the God of the people who enslaved us.
Dude, I'll...
Yeah, we can...
Oh, yeah.
I have an answer for you on that one, for sure.
Okay, we'll bookmark that on.
I put that right there, and we'll hopefully have a chance to come back to it.
I'll be the black spokesman, I guess, for the whole race.
Yeah, I'm sure they'll like that.
Anyway, so I went on to say I had a question about...
I'll skip that.
I had a question about UPB. I'll read it, even though I have more of an understanding of it.
I said, I have a better understanding.
But a universal principle must be applicable to everyone.
So if someone feels that all Black people are thieves, or I guess what I'm trying to say is if their premise is that all Black people are thieves, then they're incorrect because I'm not a thief and I'm Black.
In other words, everything I've heard thus far about UPB relates to judging a principle by applying it to a whole.
For instance, to say that only people who wear red are good, but I venture to say that it works the other way.
If I wear blue and I'm good, the previous principle is invalidated.
So Zimmerman's decision to tail Martin due to his race, the actions of other black people or statistics may be understandable, but it can't be called moral or right, which is what I felt you were doing.
So that's – And I don't – I don't know of anyone who would say all blacks are thieves.
I mean, I don't think there's a racist insane enough in the world to paint, you know, that.
No, no.
I mean, there is, you know, we are patterned.
Like, we're pattern-recognizing machines, you know, the parents, you know, my daughter, I didn't explain to her what chairs were, but she's just pointing, oh, look, a chair, you know, it's just, we're pattern-making machines, and we work the odds, right?
And so, you know, to take a ridiculous example, right, the lion might not be hungry.
I'm still not going to go and pet it, you know, because, you know, I will go and pet a cat, although maybe not a cat I find, like, in the road or something like that, but Right?
I mean, because you're working the average.
What are the odds you're going to get eaten by a lion?
Well, they're pretty low.
But, you know, it's such a negative experience that, you know, we just don't pet.
Right?
So, I can already hear everyone saying, oh my god, he compares to...
First of all, their African cat.
Anyway, alright, so, you know, there's landmines everywhere you go.
I know.
The great thing is, since I almost died last year, I don't give a shit, frankly.
I mean, people can get as upset with me as they want.
It's just me.
Don't mind everybody else out there.
Right, so...
So, it's not that people say, oh my god, all blacks are thieves.
But what they say is, we've got a 9 to 1 ratio of black on white versus white on black violence.
And if the black person is, and again, I know this wasn't your case with the yoga, and I wish you'd asked that person.
And it's a ridiculous thing to do, right?
But it's always nice, again, if we know enough, we can usually understand everything.
But If, you know, if they're doing the pimp role, you know, coming down the street, like there's some cheesy extra in a Black Eyed Peas video, and, you know, they've got whatever markings and grills and whatever, I don't know why jewelry shops have to set up shop and these people's gum lines.
But anyway, if they're doing all of that, then there is...
Maybe they just robbed someone and they're going home and they're full.
Maybe they're not robbers at all.
Maybe this is just a fashion statement.
But given that the negative consequences of being robbed are so huge and given that there is this statistical overwhelming whatever stuff that people have known or maybe read about or maybe even experienced or know someone who's experienced that That people will just err on the side of caution.
You know, is that racist?
Well, of course to every individual who's a nice person, it is horrible to experience that.
But we don't take, most people will not take the chance.
Again, the downside of crossing the street Is low, right?
Whereas the downside of being robbed is very bad.
Now, again, I would argue fundamentally it's not to do with race, but fundamentally it's to do with presentation, right?
So you've heard me make this argument, but for those who haven't, right?
If you are going to have to wait at a bus stop and there are two guys there, you know, and one is a white guy with Swastika for, you know, forehead and punk hair and, you know, snip and glue, whatever, you know, some stereotypical bad news presentation for a white person.
And then there's a, you know, a 50-year-old black guy in a suit reading a computer magazine.
You won't be like, that black guy is going to be troubled.
White guy's my brother.
Black guy's going to be troubled, right?
Because it's around sort of presentation.
And of course, you know, we see And I say we.
I mean, I think society as a whole, as well as all of the people like Bill Cosby who are in the black community who are incredibly frustrated by all of this stuff.
You know, a lot of rappers, a lot of bitches and hoes, a lot of, you know, this whole sort of thug culture, a lot of this worship of this and a lot of, you know, fantastical dreams of, you know, basketball stardom and so on and all this.
And I get that, you know.
Black kids in the ghetto, a basketball is what they can afford.
They're not going to be playing cricket or learning how to sail boats.
I mean, I get that there's a horrible tragedy involved with all of that, but there is a lot of mockers that come out that make people err a little bit more on the side of caution.
Now, of course, for great, decent people like yourself, that's really tragic.
But I don't know that blaming people who were scared of statistics is always the best way to approach it.
I think we can remind people that the vast majority of black people are never going to rob anyone, are going to be, you know, really great, productive, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever, right?
Good tax livestock like the rest of us.
But at the same time, you know, and again, I hate to say the black community should, you know, like you're all just like one giant borg, you know?
But...
I'm number six or seven.
Yeah, but there is this challenge of like, you know, I don't know if, you know, again, I can't speak for white people.
What do I know?
I disagree with almost every white person I meet.
So the idea that I can speak with any representative whatsoever is crazy.
Right.
But...
And of course, you know, the white family is just one generation behind the catastrophic destruction of the black family.
I mean, I think in New York, under 30, the majority of white babies are born to women out of wedlock.
I mean, this is tragic, horrible.
We even know the statistics of what happens with single moms.
But people are like, wow, you know, this community of like single moms and, you know, dangerous kids.
And I mean, it's alarming to people as a whole.
And I'm sure, you know, Chris Rock talks about this quite a bit, right?
The difference between blacks and niggers, right?
That, you know, it's really frustrating for hardworking black people to look across the tracks and see, you know, some welfare mom pumping out her sixth kid.
It's like, here go my taxes again, right?
Right.
So there is a lot of frustration that's not just focused around fears of black men, but also fears of, you know, the giant resource sucking hole, so to speak, of whether it's black or white women.
It's been a bit more on the black side, but now it's growing up with the white side for the single momdom because, you know, that's just a huge burden on everyone who's productive, blacks and whites included.
So, again, I mean, tragically, the rest of society is catching up with this ghastly mess of the black family or at least the majority of black families.
But I think there is a lot of alarm for there.
And until we can sort of say these are problems that maybe blacks got there a little sooner, but Lord knows the rest of us as a whole aren't that far behind.
But I think if we sort of say, well, the only problem is perception, then I think we're going to miss out.
We're going to end up trying to manage perception, then deal with causes.
And I think that's where I think our real productivity needs to be.
Sorry, long rant with nothing that you can possibly respond to in any coherent fashion because it wasn't presented very coherently, but I hope that makes sense.
No, I got it.
As a matter of fact, I mean, I feel like when we're talking about perception, I think the perception I'm speaking of is the current one.
I'm right there with you that, you know, if we can teach, you know, not aggression principle, don't spank your kids, peaceful parenting, you know, RTR, all that jazz.
Sorry, my brother's dog is crazy.
But then I think, yeah, in the future we won't have a lot of the same problems that we have now.
I mean, it's crazy to think that if our 24% straightened up that then there would only be like, what, 27% of crimes at all because the 83% will be gone.
So, you know, that's something I want to work towards.
Okay, and yeah, so the last point that I had was called impossible shoes.
I said, there seems to be a presumption of what it is like to exist in America as a black person, which is what we've sort of been talking about.
There are things that I'm sure we can safely assume about other races other than our own, but for the most part, there are really some things that people who are not your race just won't understand.
I'll liken it to this.
I'm currently a podcast 1120, and I know that you have a daughter now, but from where I'm listening, she's not born yet or she was just sort of announced.
You mentioned several times that people would say, you can't tell me how to parent because you don't have any kids.
And you would counter that with saying that you had interaction with children at your daycare or that you worked with your nieces.
But now that you have your beautiful little girl, Isabella, I'm sure that you can see more clearly what those people were saying.
saying.
And it's not that your advice before was invalid, especially because it's advice that's based on universality.
But I can't conceive of you not having a different perspective as a parent now.
So at the very least, you can probably get what they're saying in a different way.
Sadly, you can't know what it's like to be a Black person in America in modern day society.
But when other people follow UPB and culture is eradicated, then we can have more familiarity with other people's perspectives.
But But in this moment, it's unfair and impossible to claim that knowledge.
All in all, these are the things that still weigh on my mind from the video, blah, blah, blah.
And I will surmise that to say, like, I have a cousin named Tori who's 19.
He's at Chapel Hill.
Obviously, he's a black man.
He's amazing.
And he eats your material up.
He's going to be something.
He's going to be amazing.
He's going to kill us in this.
He's going to be so far past where we are with this because he's eating it up.
But then it's like I really feared him watching this video because ultimately, from all that I just said, it felt like It felt like, honestly, there was just not the level of sympathy that one would expect when anybody has been killed, I guess.
And that's one of the things I think that might have been missed.
And I think that's something that might have maybe even turned his opinion of this entire huge...
Amazing set of resources and information.
So ultimately, that's what I want to prevent with this conversation is just to say, you know, that's how I came across, maybe because of how the misunderstanding of how things are perceived right now.
But, you know, maybe I think after people see this and see your perspective on it, And I definitely feel like I have a better understanding of where you're coming from, that people can be more receptive to how we can actually go about fixing this.
Yeah, I mean, I hear what you're saying.
And I don't know if this is rational or not, or even helpful, but part of me sort of rebels against the idea that there are elements of race existence that are incommunicable, that will forever be a gulf.
Between you and I as human beings because you're black and I'm white.
You know, there's this unfathomable thing that we can't Cross because we've had these different experiences.
And I just, again, you may be right.
Maybe, you know, you could be right, but I rebel in my gut against this idea.
I mean, I have way more in common with you than 99.9% of white people.
Like, way more in common with you than most white people I'll ever meet who all want to throw me in jail for wanting to exercise basic human freedom and conscience, right?
You don't want to do that, I assume, you know, if a voluntarist and all that, I can disagree with you about how we help the poor and you're not like, well, off to jail with you, white boy, right?
So, I, you know, those of us who...
Think for ourselves, who think individually, who reason based upon evidence to the best of our ability, have so much in common with each other and so little in common with everyone else, that the idea that there's an uncrossable gulf between us because of our different races, which somehow doesn't exist with me with other white people, I can't I can't get there.
Again, that doesn't mean that you're wrong.
I just can't.
The issue of race, to me, fundamentally, doesn't seem that relevant.
And that could be because I, you know, lived this life of the mind and loved chatting with everyone about ideas.
I mean, this has been a great conversation for me.
But I just, I can't take race all that seriously.
Because it would...
Give me some sort of, not opposition, but some gulf between you that somehow I don't have with other white people.
And most other white people annoy the living hell out of me.
They do.
They're like, oh my God.
I mean, the number of times I get accused of white privilege because I have an accent is just ludicrous.
People don't know that I fought my way out from the ghetto like...
Any brother you care to name, right?
But, you know, white people are really, really, really annoying and blind and entitled and so are a lot of black people and a lot of Hispanic people and a lot of Japanese people and a lot of Jewish people.
Most people don't think.
I try not to discriminate based on race because there's so many more fundamental things to discriminate based on, like the ability to think or whatever.
Yes.
To me, it would be heartbreaking.
Literally, it would break my heart to imagine that you and I would have a gulf between us.
Simply based on accidents of genetics.
And again, I'm not saying, you know, you've experienced racism.
I've experienced prejudice in many other ways, you know, just based on original thought, based on atheism, based on anarchism, based on, you know, all the things you've probably heard about.
And, I mean, if I were to go through the list of things that have actually happened to me as a result of these things, I mean...
One of our hairs would stand on end.
And again, whether that would be the same as your experiences, I mean, we both will have experienced significant prejudice.
Now, you can say, well, I can hide my atheism and anarchism.
You can't hide being black.
But you can hide being gay, too.
We just don't think it's particularly a good or reasonable thing to do.
So, you know, you think originally and vitally you have great questions and comments and criticisms.
And, you know, I think we're both willing to listen to each other's perspective and find some way of communicating our experiences to each other.
The idea that then, you know, random melatonin Chasms between us render us unable to process, then who the hell am I going to talk to?
I can't talk to white people.
I can't talk to you.
I mean, it's me and my hand puppets.
I mean, don't make me.
They're so critical, right?
So I'm just telling you, it would be kind of heartbreaking for me if that were true.
Does it mean that it's easy for me to vault over and know the black experience?
No.
Is it easy for you to vault over and know, you know, the white atheist anarchist?
Well, you know, two out of three ain't bad, right?
And I think the majority of it is the atheist anarchist.
But I think we can cross that gulf, and I think it's a lot less of a gulf to cross than I would have with whiteys who don't think.
I agree.
In fact, earlier when you were talking about being an anarchist and having to face Judge Dredd, what is the movie with Tina Turner and Mel Gibson and all that?
Beyond the Thunderdome.
I'm not saying I'm proud I know that off the tip of my tongue.
I've never actually seen it.
But yeah, that's it.
Mad Max 3, Beyond the Thunderdome.
Yes!
Yes.
So that.
That's what we're up against with anarchy.
With atheism, we're up against people thinking we're Satanists.
I totally hadn't considered that at all, honestly.
And I think that it's funny because, again, having those perspectives, too, and seeing...
Not the, you know, racism, but the equivalent when it comes to having original thought, like you said, it's very, very, it's very similar.
And it's very interesting, because I did not think about that.
I did not consider, like, that we have more in common than other people.
I don't think a black person is, I get attacked by white people.
I don't, you know.
I mean, all the people who self-identified as blacks who called into the show, you know, positive and friendly, you know, have criticisms, which I don't particularly associate with race.
Obviously, I mean, it's just critical thinkers.
But yeah, I mean, the people who go for me, I mean, all white people.
You know, so if I can't connect with you, don't leave me alone with these white people.
I'm here for you.
I'm here.
But I think what's sad, though, is honestly that Black, white, whatever, most of the world, we're talking 24% minority for Black people, but it's probably a 1% minority for people who do think critically.
So it's really sad, but I mean, honestly, I think that's kind of what I fear for.
And I'm so worried you can't hear that.
But it's, I guess you have this whole thing about try not to manage other people's emotions.
And that's, I think, exactly what Cause me to even talk to you about this, because I have this thought that I know most of the world doesn't think.
I know most of the world is sucked up in the media frenzy and the race baiting.
So it makes me want to try to manage that, to say, hey, well, maybe if we did this, or if it was more sympathetic, or maybe if we, you know, tone this down.
Whereas like, Again, I don't want to be talking to you.
I want to be talking to the people who, again, shouldn't spank their kids and should probably take this as a lesson or this whole entire situation as a point to consider before they do go out in a hoodie or before they do raise their kid in a certain fashion.
I agree.
I definitely think that this has been...
It's brought maybe me and you as far as our types of personalities together.
But as far as the racing, I see what you mean for sure.
And I don't know.
I mean, what are your thoughts?
Let me just be clear if I didn't express this as well or at all, right?
If I express it as well, I think that what happened to Trayvon Martin was horrendous.
I think that is, I mean, there's no good way to die, but there really are bad ways to die.
And He was 17 years old.
Now, he's old enough to join the Marines with his parents' permission.
I wouldn't characterize him as a child.
But...
I don't think he had the kind of life experience and socio-political, cultural environment that gave him much chance of success.
I mean, somebody who would overcome those kinds, I mean, would be rare.
I mean, it would require a lot more gifts than perhaps he had.
And that's not a race thing.
That's just a, you know, most people are average and when put in highly adverse circumstances, Do very poorly.
And a few people who are extraordinary will do well even under adverse circumstances.
Not a standard we can hold everyone to.
But it was a horrible way to end his life.
It was an absolute tragedy.
And I think that the amount of failures that society dealt him were like a series of blows to the face.
I mean, this was like he's in the corner, Muhammad Ali of society is just pommel, pommel, pommel.
His parents divorced.
He was surrounded by negative stereotypes.
He's got shitty government schools that cage him in as they do cage everyone in and don't teach him how to think.
And, you know, he had a father who seemed somewhat, I don't know, I hesitate to say because I don't know the man's state of mind, but there seems to be some evidence, I mean, that he did not take some useful precautions to keep his...
And I don't view him as some causeless.
Let's say that everything that Zimmerman said is true.
I don't view Trayvon Martin as some causeless bad guy who just, you know, goes and I think that there was a huge amount of tragedies that dominoed together.
To produce this horrifying situation.
And I mean, I think there's no sane human being in the world who wouldn't have wished that it had gone entirely differently years and years before to provide a different outcome.
So it is a heartbreaking way for a young man's life to be cut short.
Even if he instigated and all this kind of stuff, it is a terrible situation.
that occurred and he was as we all are when we're teenagers he was to a large degree still a product of his environment and his environment as the result of statism as a result of religiosity as a result of racism as a result of cultural problems Was pretty wretched and so I just really wanted to sort of put that out as You know as clearly as I can it was it was terrible what happened to him and There's an old Monty Python joke where
a guy steals Something and he says yeah, yeah, but society is to blame and the policeman says agreed we'll be charging them too and I think in this situation, you know, what could I think the best thing that can come out of this is to say what elements in society domino together to produce the tombstone that fell on this young man.
And, you know, he's not a sole actor.
He's a product of his environment like we all are.
Not solely a product of his environment.
We still have choices and all of that.
But for us to really look introspectively and say it's not about the gunshot that night because that Is the result of so many prior decisions on both Zimmerman's part and on the media's part and on Priest's part and school officials and school policies and taxation and, you know, the death of manufacturing jobs and the lack of capacity for people to feel like they can get out into the middle class.
And I know his father was fairly well to do in middle class and so on.
The whole culture that surrounded him is one of nihilism and despair in many ways, and that is something we really have to tackle as a society.
The best thing that we can do with a senseless and brutal death like this is to learn as much as humanly possible.
It won't bring him back to life, and it doesn't solve the problems that contributed to his grisly end, but it is the very best I think we can take out of such a horrible tragedy.
I agree.
And it's funny because before, when I was listening to the podcast and you were like, oh, you know, 17's not a child, you know, I was like, well, he's someone's child.
Like, you know, that's just the first thing that popped in my mind.
And then I was like, but wait a minute, you know, you know, right, he was someone's child.
And those people, unfortunately, like you said, did not, you know, do pretty simple things and simple measures to prevent this from happening.
what it was.
So I think honestly, like, I do have sympathy for the young man as well.
But just from thinking about it more, and, you know, reading up on things more and understanding the situation better.
And even with, you know, this discussion, you know, I, I definitely feel like I'm more attuned to the reality of it.
And I'm more accepting of the fact that we just have a long way to go.
It's definitely not about where we are now.
It's about how do we, again, find the solution and fix it.
So whatever I need to keep doing or keep promoting, I certainly will.
I'm definitely gung-ho.
And it's weird because I don't feel like I want to...
Promote this situation or being more compassionate or whatever for Black people.
I honestly like UPB and FDR and all these other acronyms because I think they can help all people, quite frankly.
It's interesting that this is a race topic when I personally don't even see Race like that.
I kind of agree with you that we're all people and I definitely like that.
We found more common ground today, I think.
So it's interesting, really interesting stuff.
I appreciate the conversation.
I hope we can do another one because I think I do have, you know, there's so many taboo topics, which at least in America and certainly here in Canada, people are like, You know, it's like that old thing unsigned where I was like, I don't think we're supposed to be talking about this.
You just can't talk about it, right?
Right.
But I think we need to, and I hope that we'll have a chance to have another conversation because I certainly have a lot of questions that, you know, all the whites want me to ask.
Like, what does it feel like?
Is it soft?
I'm sorry?
Can you run your fingers through it?
No, you know what I'm trying to do?
Because I've got a bright light on here, it's kind of warm.
I'm just trying to not put too much of a glare for Mike to have to, otherwise I'm going to look like I've got a third UFO eye right around here.
So no, I'm not trying to smooth my hair out.
I mean, I don't know what I'm going to do with that, right?
I always like, when I go to the barber, they're like, how do you want it?
I'm like, really?
You're going to ask me that?
And what they mean is, you know, square or pointed back, but it's like, you know, it's a nice question to ask.
You know you're over 40 when it's like, we can't do anything about the top of your head, but would you like me to trim your ears?
It's like...
Something to look forward to.
No, I was more saying, like, that's a question I get a lot from white people, is what does my hair feel like?
Really?
Yeah.
Yeah, like, what does it feel like?
Can you brush it?
Can you run your fingers through it?
I was like, yeah, you know.
And which white woman did Beyonce steal...
I grew up in the 70s where the full-on fro...
Was like where you had to take a run at a double door just to get through.
And, you know, God help you if you got stuck in a revolving door with one of those afros.
I mean, they were like, you know, black power like a fuzzy lollipop.
I mean, it was amazing.
And now it's just like how much like Gwyneth Paltrow can I make these tortured African locks look?
I mean, it just is bizarre to me.
Yeah, there's, like, two totally divergent...
Yeah, I think, honestly, African-American culture is very interesting.
Like, there's this...
Like, me, like, I just...
I like my hair.
I wanted to see what it looked like without all that crap.
So, you know, it went natural.
But there's this whole natural revolution going on now.
Like, I, you know, had no idea it was that serious, you know?
But then, like you said, there's a whole group of people who want to look as European as possible.
It was very interesting.
It makes you wonder, like...
There's a lot of questions.
I think even, speaking of Chris Rock, he did Good Hair.
He had a documentary and he was questioning, like, do we, are we trying to look more like white people or what is it about our identity that we're trying to run from or whatever?
So it's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of stuff there.
I'll be very happy to talk to you about any of it.
It's not taboo to me, so.
Well, I'll, I'll poll for questions at the next meeting.
It could be like a Dave Chappelle, ask a black guy, ask a black girl.
I know that you're a performer and we can cut this out if you don't want to, but is there any website that you wanted to talk about, uh, you know, to people who would listen to this, who want to know more about your work?
Yeah, actually, I have a website called thatatheistplace.com, and basically, I'm trying to tap into the Atheist I guess realm with FDR principles in a sense.
Like I just noticed when I was on Twitter or Facebook or whatever, you know, not only are atheists perceived really badly or were perceived as being another religion or perceived as being very angry and hostile, then in the atheist community, you see that anger and hostility.
So I just try to I'm trying to really grow the atheist community, thereby hopefully moving into the anarchist community and hopefully into the NAP community, but just trying to grow that with humor and with inclusion and with genuine curiosity, asking questions, making sure we try to use the Socratic method, learning so, so, so much from you and just trying to apply a lot of that into this one niche of atheism as well.
Hopefully in the long run we'll have like brick and mortars where people can go and have speeches and have a cup of coffee and have a genuine discussion.
But right now we're just online at thatatheistplace.com.
I really appreciate it.
Thatatheistplace.com.
Well, thanks again.
I really appreciate, you know, more questions, more discussions.
I think of this is really, really helpful.
And I really, really enjoyed the conversation tonight.
Thank you so much.
Likewise.
Thank you so, so much.
Take care.
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