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Feb. 28, 2014 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:20:24

2628 There Are People In My Head - Wednesday Call In Show February 26th, 2014

Allowing bigots to expose themselves, overcoming a strong emotional response to negative feedback, there are people in my head, being inconvenient to toxic people, overcoming the hostility of boredom and arm wrestling a statue.

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	Well, good evening, everybody.
	Hope you're doing well.
	Stephen Molyneux from Freedom Inn Radio.
	Well, where are we?
	Near the end of February 2014.
	So, Bill, in the U.S., Arizona, if I have my sun-baked states down correctly, is saying that people have the right to not serve homosexuals in their place of business, which I guess is under the category of Kind of dickwad religious freedom.
	But religious freedom is for dickwads.
	It's for people you don't agree with.
	It's for people who are making silly, although scripturally correct, choices.
	I mean, they are an abomination, saith the Lord, and so on.
	No matter how fabulous they can decorate their kitchens.
	I don't know.
	Maybe I'm missing something.
	You know, Barney Frank served like 630 terms as a congressman.
	And he came out as gay decades ago, but he waited until he retired from public life to come out as an atheist, because it's a lot easier to be gay than to be an atheist in society as a whole.
	There have been tons of gay characters, but I can only think of two atheist characters in TV. Gregory House, the miserable son of a bitch, and Julian Margolis' character from A Good Wife.
	Who's married to a sociopath politician and is appropriately suspect, I guess you could say.
	And I don't know.
	I mean, I personally, I would love for people to openly say that they didn't like atheists.
	Like, I'd love for businesses to post a sign saying, no atheists allowed.
	I mean, that would be great.
	Because the one thing that's tough about bigotry is when it's invisible.
	I mean, you want bigotry to be shooting flares up into the sky.
	You want fireworks and fabulous dance numbers and all kinds of cool shit going on from the bigots so they can step forward proudly and say to everyone, I am a medieval dickwad who can't read past...
	The idiotic scribblings of sun-baked Bedouin from 5,000 years ago.
	I stand here and self-identify!
	Bring the spotlight of public scrutiny down upon me.
	I think that would be great.
	I don't know why anyone is fighting this bill.
	Boy, if there's ever a way to identify and punish bigots, man, this would be the way to go.
	Out yourselves, brethren!
	Say if you hate we atheists.
	It would be such a relief to know who I shouldn't Give my money to.
	Man, alive, that would be fantastic.
	Keep it in my pocket, and anybody who doesn't have the I hate atheists or I hate gays won't serve them sign, well, I guess we'll be doing some productive business with those people.
	So I don't know.
	Maybe I'm missing something that's completely obvious, and please feel free to correct me over the course of the show.
	But I think they're kind of missing the point.
	Basically, homophobes and anti-atheists, they really need to be outed, and here's a perfect opportunity for them to out themselves.
	Gosh, what more could you ask for?
	Anyway, Mike, who do we have first, and what be their question...
	Dave is up first, and he wrote in and said, when I receive negative feedback or criticism from work clients, I have a really intense emotional reaction, lots of anger and anxiety.
	I'm confident and knowledgeable enough to know that clients are going to come and go, yet I still have an emotional reaction.
	Do you have any ideas why this might be the case, and what can I do to change this emotional response?
	How is this grammar, spelling, and punctuation, Mike?
	Pretty good.
	Pretty good?
	Yeah.
	What does that mean?
	I rewrote it, so I don't exactly know.
	Oh, that's good.
	Let's tweak the anxious before they even call in.
	Are you there?
	I'm here, yeah.
	I wanted to say thank you.
	First, I'm a long-term donator and listener.
	I just really appreciate your work.
	Well, I appreciate that.
	Of course, I appreciate your support, as I'm sure does everyone who listens to the show.
	So, where do you think this comes from?
	Well, I'm actually preparing for this conversation.
	I actually wrote up a bit more background.
	I wanted to make sure I expressed what it is that I'm facing.
	Maybe I'll just read it to you first, if you don't mind.
	So it says, what I've written is, in the moment, I don't take criticism well, especially when not speaking to someone in person.
	When in person, I seem to be able to shut myself down and smile over criticism, laugh or smile over criticism.
	Another tool I have is to avoid direct confrontation by diverting toward a solution to the problem.
	We're offering a win-win solution without addressing the fact that I feel angry at the criticism itself.
	But inside I feel furious that the person can't handle the issue themselves and has brought it upon me as well.
	This happens even more so when I am objectively wrong or have made a mistake and someone has brought it to my attention.
	When others make mistakes, I will often inform them, but make sure they feel comfortable with my input, so making sure it's explained in a way that I know it's not going to be harmful to them.
	So when others use my mistakes in a way that, to me, at least feels threatening, it makes me angry.
	And when this happens in cases where I'm objective, we were wrong or made a mistake, I feel like I'm coming across as being unable to accept criticism if I try to assert myself.
	So that's pretty much what I wanted to say.
	And I'm not sure what thoughts you had from there.
	Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to do with emotional volatility around criticism is a very important subject to explore.
	Criticism or having a legitimate criticism of someone is power, really.
	And how people criticize you Tells you how they handle power in personal relationships.
	And I remember, gosh, years ago, years and years ago, I was involved in a pretty dysfunctional relationship with a woman, and I had to hide things or mistakes that I'd made because she'd just grind them.
	She'd put your nuts in a...
	Vice and just twist that little handle until you begged for death.
	Okay, that might be a bit of a hyperbole, but it was not fun.
	And then when she made a mistake, I felt like this joy.
	And it wasn't a good joy.
	It was like a squeezed lemon bitter devilry kind of joy.
	Because it was like, aha, I got you now.
	Of course the reality was that I was never able to get her because she always had some excuse or some reason or some explanation as to it.
	Why it was my fault that she did what she did.
	So anytime I paid any attention to another woman, I was being insensitive and unromantic and disrespectful and all these kinds of stuff.
	At one point, she ended up kissing another man, and then she said, well, that's because you're just not paying me enough attention.
	You know, it's just, I mean, looking back in hindsight, God, what a pitiful drip I was.
	Understandable, right?
	I mean, nobody taught me any basic self-respect or ball-clanging masculinity of any kind, right?
	Sorry, go ahead.
	What my issue really is, if it was a personal relationship, a friend, I don't have any problem telling them my feelings and just being really real-time emotions telling them what I feel and even ending the friendship if it gets to that point.
	But with business, I mean, if you do that with too many people, you're not going to have a job anymore, right?
	I just have a With some clients, when they're giving me real feedback, I do translation work and every now and then you're going to make a mistake when you're translating large files, right?
	And when one is found, Not only do they point it out but once it's pointed out it comes into me and for some reason I feel anger there.
	I think some of the time it's the way they're approaching it because they're not maybe emotionally aware but this is in a business setting so I'm finding it really tough to...
	I mean ideally obviously I just say I don't want this job or the business but I can't say no to all the clients.
	Well, I think you were just criticizing me there a little bit, which is not a problem.
	I'm just sort of pointing it out.
	Right.
	Because I was starting to talk about how criticisms can be based upon power, and you interrupted me as if I hadn't talked, and you basically said, yes, but my issue is, and then you went on this thing about business and all of that.
	And you didn't say, well, Steph, what you're saying is not relevant to me, or I don't understand the relevance to me.
	I basically asked your question again as if I hadn't spoken.
	Right.
	And why do you think you did that?
	Again, I'm not criticizing.
	I'm just sort of pointing out what happened and why was that your approach?
	Because let's say I was saying something you didn't understand the relevance.
	You could say, well, what's the relevance?
	I don't get it.
	Or if you really assumed there was no relevance, just say, look, I appreciate your feedback, but there's no relevance to this to me or whatever.
	Sure.
	Yeah, I think I should have acknowledged what you just said.
	I think I was trying to maybe jump the gun into...
	Went straight to rerouting the conversation without acknowledging what you just said.
	Sorry about that.
	No, no, it's no problem.
	So, no, but this is good because now we get to work on it in real time rather than theoretically, right?
	Which is all the better, right?
	So, do you have more feedback from what I just said there?
	Have you had the same problem?
	Hang on, am I right in assuming that you didn't find what I was talking about helpful or useful?
	Yeah, I agree with what you said for personal relationships, but it seems like there's a divide in the current world.
	In personal relationships, I feel comfortable being honest and telling people my feelings, but in business, at least in the circles I work in anyway, it's not possible to be completely real-time in your feelings.
	It's not practical either in business, right?
	There's a common goal of getting something done.
	I agree with what you said, but it seems like I need a tool that's outside of...
	It almost feels like I need to block off my actual feelings sometimes in work to actually fit in to finish my job.
	Does that make any sense?
	Well, okay, but are you saying then that criticism at a professional level, you can't really respond to it, is that right?
	Yeah, I don't feel comfortable offering too much criticism in response to feedback from clients, I guess.
	I run my own business, so I'm dealing directly with clients.
	So it feels like I need to be supportive of them because it's a different kind of relationship than personal.
	But I still feel the personal emotions when those problems are being dealt with.
	Okay, so you don't have a problem with criticism, giving or receiving criticism, in your personal life.
	It's only professional.
	Yeah, it feels like there's a wall that I can't send back my feedback to clients, basically.
	Maybe it feels like I'm holding my breath almost.
	The first part of the question that I asked was, you have no problem with it in your personal relationships, is that right?
	Right.
	I mean, there's always hiccups, right?
	But I feel, with my wife and good friends, I feel like I can express what I want to say.
	Okay, do you think you give off any signals in your professional relationship that people can be overly critical of you?
	Like, if you have a belief...
	Yeah, I would respond to criticism.
	In fact, I can't respond to criticism in a professional setting.
	Because otherwise I'll have no clients and I'll starve and my children will end up eating their hamsters or whatever, right?
	If you have that belief, it generally tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
	I think I definitely go overboard on the accepting side with clients.
	I think if someone has a tendency to take advantage of that, then they'll have the opportunity if it's a business relationship with me.
	So then you are undervaluing your skills, right?
	Okay.
	I think I've always had a fear in work.
	I always seem to do more than I need to to survive and prosper out of a fear of, maybe like you said, it's undervaluing the value I provide, but I'm always wanting to do a bit more to make sure that I'm going to eat for There was a time where I counted the days ahead.
	I can live for 100 days if I lost my job today.
	So I've always got this idea that...
	I think it's just what you said, actually.
	It's just undervaluing what I'm able to provide and not trusting myself enough, maybe.
	So you feel maybe that lots of other people can do what you do and do it cheaper and better.
	And if you provide any resistance...
	Or if you say, hey, you know, I don't appreciate being talked to in that way.
	Or even if you just have the attitude that we're working together as equals, then that's going to cost you business.
	And the only way to survive is servility, right?
	Exactly.
	If I get negative feedback or if I feel any risk at all of losing one bit of business, it's like the end times for me in my emotions sometimes.
	It feels like I have to keep this at all costs just in case I lose the other 10 clients.
	You know what I mean?
	Right.
	So I really want to lose that part of me.
	Right now I can control it when I'm in business, but I don't want to control it.
	I want to just feel...
	I'm comfortable when I'm dealing with those issues.
	Right.
	So in what relationship prior to your business relationships did you feel undervalued, if any?
	Or that you weren't providing enough value for the other person to recognize and accept that value?
	Going back to when I was in childhood, I think in my family, a child speaking or telling an adult what they thought was definitely undervalued.
	I remember when I was in grade 7, I think I was 13 maybe, and I started, my dad and a friend were talking, we were on a fishing trip and they were telling a story and I was enjoying listening and I Piked in and said, oh, I remember when I was 11, I did blah, blah, blah.
	I can't remember what I said, but I remember so...
	In an instant, my dad's friend instantly said, oh, was that 20 years ago?
	What, are you old or something?
	So it really berating my own personal experience.
	And my dad didn't say anything in response to that.
	That's one example of...
	I didn't feel like my views were...
	We're really fully valued as a person's views, basically, I guess.
	It felt like I had to be an adult, whatever that means, before my true value would be expressed.
	Right.
	And would you say that you're good at your job?
	Yeah, I think I'm a perfectionist.
	I think I do take pride in it.
	I think it represents me.
	So when I get negative feedback, it's direct right to my soul almost.
	So when I do a translation, I mean, there's going to be mistakes and I'm not seeking actual perfection, but when I'm doing it, I'm putting my heart into it.
	There's an insecurity that shouldn't be there.
	I can see that logically, but I'm not accepting it emotionally, I think.
	And objectively, with 100 being the best translator that anyone could be, where would you rate yourself percentage-wise?
	Top 80 percentile, maybe, around there.
	Okay, good.
	And do your prices reflect to that?
	No.
	They're lower.
	And why is that?
	I work in the Chinese translation, so there's one aspect.
	There's a lot of competition, especially English to Chinese.
	I think that's probably just an excuse.
	It's more wanting to attract as many clients as I can, even though the lower the price is, the lower the quality of client, obviously.
	I don't go bottom basement price, but I think I'm middle of the road.
	Right, okay.
	So then if you're in the top 80th percentile and you are charging middle of the road, then you're undercharging, right?
	Right, yeah.
	And why are you undercharging?
	I'm worried about the, for example, if I raise my desk by a third today, tomorrow there's going to be a corresponding drop in inquiries to begin with.
	And I think that's...
	I'd be worried of losing a client that could potentially be long-term income.
	That's basically one in the hand is worth two in the bush, right?
	It's sort of wanting to grab what I'm sure I can get rather than I know that's wrong.
	I should be pricing myself for my ideas, but I can't get over that fear, I guess.
	I'm the main provider in the household, too, so with our rent and our car payments and things, we're doing well, but in my mind, I'm still thinking of if I lose this money, then what do we do down the road?
	And that's all illogical, I think.
	So is it in your opinion, then, that people have an inability to recognize quality?
	Yeah, I don't trust them that they will recognize it, I think.
	That's something that really resonated with me.
	I don't trust that my clients won't just turn around.
	Do you have evidence for that supposition that they don't recognize quality?
	No, I don't actually.
	That's a good point.
	Okay, so in what relationships in the past do you have evidence that people cannot recognize quality?
	My parents took care of me materialistically.
	They would give me what I want and what I needed, buy me a new computer.
	Thinking back on it now, with the great friends I have now and my great relationship with my wife, I was never accepted and really appreciated.
	Intellectually when I was younger, I found that solace in books rather than speaking to people.
	I think when I said something I knew was a value out loud to an adult when I was younger, I didn't get the response that I felt was deserved.
	Right, so if there's a mismatch, just work this out logically with me, so if there's a mismatch, Between the quality that you provide and the quality that people perceive, then there are a couple of possibilities, just logically.
	The first possibility is that you are incorrect in your evaluation of how much value you provide.
	You think out of 100 you're providing value 80, other people think that you're providing value 50.
	In which case, you need to reform your view of yourself and say, well, in this market, I can only provide a value of 50.
	And then you can work to improve your skills or maybe you could switch markets or whatever, right?
	That's one possibility.
	And that's why I'm asking you these questions.
	That doesn't sound like that's the case, right?
	Okay.
	Now, the other possibility is that you are providing...
	A value of 80, but the people you're working with can only provide a value, like only perceive a value of 50 because they're incompetent.
	It's this Donnie Kruger effect, right?
	That it takes competence to recognize competence.
	So it could be that you could translate the greatest Chinese poets, but people have you translating cereal boxes, and you think, well, I can translate Chinese poets, but they only have a requirement that you translate cereal boxes.
	So your skills are overmatched to what it is.
	You don't hire Pavarotti, particularly now that he's dead, to sing at your children's birthday party.
	Kind of overkill, right?
	Yeah.
	So in that case, you need to find clients with more sophisticated requirements, right?
	I mean, with translation, it's true that for a lot of clients, middle or lower end clients, it's a case of thinking, well, you just pop it in Google Translate and it's a pretty simple service.
	Clean it up a little.
	You know what I mean?
	Yeah, exactly.
	So then you have quality, but you're around people who are unable to recognize quality, right?
	Yeah, and that's part of promotion too.
	You have to teach clients the value of, that's something I can work on, but I think it's more of an insecurity more than that, because I think the clients that are good recognize that they need a good representative in another language, right?
	You keep kind of breaking away from what I'm trying to talk about.
	Okay.
	I'm just sort of, again, sort of giving you...
	It's a little frustrating, which doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong.
	I'm just telling you that I'm sort of frustrated.
	Like, I try and lay out these sort of scenarios, hopefully to bring some clarity, and you keep jumping to conclusions or jumping to other topics.
	Okay.
	And that's simply my feedback to you.
	That's not a truth statement.
	Do you understand?
	Right.
	Yep, I understand.
	Where were you trying to direct it before I jumped in there?
	Well, no, see, I don't want to talk about that now, not poutishly or pettishly, but I generally accept that when I'm feeling something, by surprise, it's what the other person is feeling, but not communicating, right?
	So I'm actually, you're saying, well, people, you know, didn't listen, didn't take me seriously, and so on.
	And I'm trying to listen and take you seriously, but you keep derailing me.
	Oh, that's interesting.
	Like, almost like, if I do take you seriously, that's a problem.
	If I do spend time to sit and try and work out an issue with you logically and patiently, that's a problem for you.
	Like, you want to rush me along.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	It feels like I'm trying to control the conversation, almost.
	Is that...
	Oh, totally.
	Insecurity leads us to control, right?
	Insecurity is a kind of tyranny, right?
	Because we end up trying to manage other people so that they don't make us insecure.
	Insecurity is the root of control, of manipulation, and in extreme cases, which obviously isn't you, of tyranny and domination and all that kind of stuff, right?
	People who are insecure are very manipulative and very controlling.
	And I'm not saying this is true for you in all situations or all environment.
	I'm not even saying that you're really insecure.
	I'm just saying in this instance, I feel like we've got two opposing poles, magnets, trying to touch each other.
	And every time I try to sort of work something through with you, you jump off in some other direction.
	Because it must be provoking anxiety for you to, I think, be listened to and be taken seriously.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I mean, apart from people I've met at Freedom Aid Radio through meet-ups and things, I mean, I've just given up almost trying to get to, you know, the meaningless conversations.
	Apart from business, that's one thing, but people I meet randomly, they could potentially be friends, I've sort of given up on that.
	Maybe I'm not used to someone like you talking honestly and looking for something that's not controlled.
	Right.
	So what this means is that there are people in your head who are really bothered by me taking you seriously and attempting to be patient in trying to answer your question.
	Uh-huh.
	In other words, there are people in your head who won't look very good if you accept what I'm doing.
	So they're derailing you.
	So that this can be an unsatisfying conversation, right?
	In other words, if you have an unsatisfying conversation with me about something that's serious and very important to you, if you have an unsatisfying conversation, it doesn't denormalize what came before in your childhood.
	Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
	It's almost like if I'm going to...
	You're a role model in my life, right?
	I actually thought of this this afternoon when I was getting ready for this call.
	I was telling myself, well, I can figure this out myself.
	These problems are internal.
	I need to do it internally.
	There's no external solution to this.
	It was almost like I was trying to shut down this avenue of communication before it even started.
	Sure.
	This is sort of like going to the top and sort of raising this entire problem to the ground.
	Talking to you, it feels like way to me.
	I'm just going to the person who would help me best in this situation, I think.
	So that's what it feels like.
	And so you hear this from people who say, I'll handle it myself.
	Right.
	You say, oh, you need to go to some therapy.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	I'll journal.
	I'll handle it myself.
	Right?
	And what they're basically saying is, there are people in my head who really don't want me to go to therapy.
	There are people in my head who really don't want me to be loved.
	There are people in my head who really don't want me to slow down and smell the roses.
	There are people in my head who are gonna yell at me if I take a nap.
	There are people in my head who are gonna get angry at me if I masturbate.
	There are people in my head who are gonna scorn me If I get self-confidence, there are people in my head who tell me I'm ugly no matter how much I lose weight, no matter how much I exercise.
	There are people in my head who tell me I'm worthless no matter how much success or power or money or sexual conquests I accumulate, right?
	There are people in my head who will scorn me for any ambition Greater than that of janitor and a half.
	And when you're talking to people, for the most part, what you're trying to do is trying to get past the people in their head to them.
	You know, like there used to be these hippy-dippy Bead curtains that you'd get in people's houses, and you'd have to sort of put your fingertips through them and widen your arms out to part these beads back and forth, all hanging on strings and stuff.
	Well, getting to talk to people is like that!
	Except it's not string and beads, it's cobras and cherry bombs that you're trying to get past to talk to the person.
	Because there's all these people maneuvering in your way and blocking whatever contact you can try and make with people.
	All these people trying to derail the conversation.
	All these people trying to keep the inner person isolated from external, meaningful contact.
	And this is why it's interesting to me that the first, like you start talking to me about something that's deep and important, and I start talking about criticism as power, and I'll give you an example from my personal and I start talking about criticism as power, and I'll give and then...
	Unconsciously, I think.
	You kind of demean me by pretending I didn't say anything, but basically telling me I'm not telling you anything useful.
	Now, I don't feel demeaned, but what I assume is that there's a person in your head who feels demeaned by me listening to you and attempting to help you with an issue.
	In other words, I'm listening and helping, and there's someone in your head that really doesn't like that, that feels demeaned Insignificant.
	Invisible.
	By that.
	It's like I have a defense in my mind, and it goes back.
	To any criticism, personal or business, I mean, like you said, if I get that feedback, it comes to the filter in my brain and it's an attack almost.
	It gets filtered as an attack and it feels like, oh, this criticism is something I can think about myself.
	I don't need this person to tell me.
	That's not how I feel with this conversation, but I think it's conscious right now.
	But when I'm getting...
	In day-to-day situations, definitely.
	Right.
	Right.
	And if you don't attack yourself, if you won't attack yourself, you become bulletproof in a very fundamental way.
	And I'll give you an example.
	Do you know how many thousands of people in the world really disagree with me, strongly, strongly disagree with me?
	I couldn't even count it, right?
	They think that I'm deluded, megalomaniacal, sociopathic, monstrous, nasty, evil, twisted, blah, blah, blah, whatever, right?
	Or they just think that I'm an idiot.
	And the funny thing is, I do like six hours of open-ended call-in shows a week.
	Where are all these people?
	I mean, I'm right here.
	I'm not hard to find.
	I'm not in a little sea bubble stuck to the underside of a piece of kelp riding a unicorn down by the great city of Atlantis, the bottom of the Mariana Trench on the dark side of the moon.
	I'm right here.
	I'm just a phone call away.
	And I love to debate.
	You know, my idea of a great evening is somebody calling into this show.
	I mean, it's not the only.
	I love the shows.
	I love all these shows that we're doing.
	But my idea of a great evening is somebody calling into a Sunday show and saying, Steph, you're completely full of it.
	You don't have a clue what you're talking about.
	Right?
	And I'm like, hey, great.
	School me, brother.
	Love it.
	But they don't, do they?
	Why not?
	You're asking me.
	Thinking from my perspective, I think it's still a fear of the direct confrontation.
	Yeah, but I think you're just tautologizing that.
	You know, why don't they want to call me because they don't want to call me?
	I mean, you're not adding much to that.
	You know, you're basically saying they have a negative emotion about the contact.
	Well, yeah, of course.
	I mean, that's why they're not doing it.
	But you can go deeper than that, right?
	Right.
	So why do people not take me up on my offer of debates and feedback and this and that?
	Well, it's because...
	I don't self-attack, really.
	And because of that, people who are used to intimidation feel powerless around me, right?
	So, now, all intimidation arises out of a feeling of powerlessness, and all intimidation arises out of a feeling of worthlessness, or more fundamentally, All intimidation arises out of an inability to accept worthlessness and powerlessness, a railing against it.
	Now, when you are, and I'm not talking about you here, this is just a general theory, right?
	It has some applicability, I think.
	I know.
	When you are helpless and powerless, you have a lot of anger.
	When you're dependent, helpless and powerless and dependent in particular.
	If you actually access this anger, that threatens your parental alter ego, right?
	And so you will generally tend to recreate situations in which you will feel helpless and powerless and so on.
	And it's all there to defend the inner parent.
	So a fundamental question for you to ask, for everyone to ask, and for me to Remember to continue to ask.
	To what degree does my preferred emotional state threaten my relationship with my parents?
	To what degree does my preferred emotional state threaten my relationship with my parents?
	It's a very essential question.
	One of the most essential questions to achieving happiness.
	So when you asked me a question and I started to answer it, and you interrupted and then you went on a tangent and then you pretended I didn't speak and then you tried to jump to a solution or you said it wasn't applicable and so on, you were running interference or rather I would say your inner parent or both of your inner parents was running interference in our conversation.
	And your inner parents, if they did not treat you with respect and dignity and listening and so on, then they will be threatened by anyone who treats you better.
	Because anyone who treats you better threatens to expose mistreatment or deficient treatment on the part of your parents.
	Does this make any sense?
	Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
	When you mentioned that, it makes sense.
	It fits with my personal relationship experience.
	Tell me if I'm going in the wrong direction.
	When I'm thinking of my work life, I feel like my work is accepted by most of the superiors I've worked under before I opened my own business.
	Always been promoted quite quickly in companies.
	So, I think...
	What do I want to say?
	Going back to the parents, I mean, it's absolutely true.
	I mean, if I let myself...
	I live pretty much across the country from my parents and I can pretty much be who I want to be and who I really am.
	Right now, I'm not around family at all.
	And I haven't broken off contact with anyone, but when I'm on my own here, I mean, it's like a blooming in my life.
	I'm a flower almost, if that makes a metaphor that comes to mind and it feels like I'm really stretching my arms and there's nothing to hold me back.
	But when I go back to even a phone call, I mean, I can feel the restriction back and I go back into that shell.
	So definitely that's still part of me.
	Right.
	Yeah, it is.
	It is still a part of you.
	And there is something that people who don't treat you well always have to keep you away from people who do treat you well.
	But they can't openly and clearly state that, right?
	They can't say, well, we don't really value you or we treat you like you're valueless.
	So we have to keep you away from people who treat you as valuable because they can't be honest about it.
	They have to be very subtle about it, right?
	You know, so like some guy who beats up his wife doesn't want his wife to hang around someone who would never accept that, right?
	It's dangerous.
	And so they have to, oh, she's a troublemaker.
	Oh, do you notice how much she drunk the other night?
	Oh, you know, she just can't get a man.
	Oh, do you know this?
	Oh, she's brittle.
	Oh, she strikes me.
	They just poison the well, right?
	Because they can't win the argument, and because they're terrified of the debate, they poison the well.
	That's exactly it.
	That's my childhood.
	I make a friend and the next day there's commentary about what he shouldn't have said or what his parents do or they don't do this or that at their home and all that.
	It's just, like you said, it poisoned my relationship with a lot of people, I think.
	Looking back on it, I didn't know about it then, but I'm thinking of it now.
	I sort of agreed with them then.
	Right.
	Well, you had to.
	I mean, anybody who our parents disapprove of in any fundamental way has to be ejected, right?
	It's not a natural thing for me, I guess, to have a conversation like this.
	I ran into you in late 2007, 2008.
	You were just getting out of your car, basically, and into a setup outside of your car.
	But around that time, from then until now, it's changed my life, the way I look at things now.
	I'm scared of what I might have Ended up as, in terms of my mental development, emotional maturity, if I hadn't run into.
	So thank you for that again.
	I mean, it's not...
	So what I wanted to say is it's not natural for me to have these conversations.
	Right.
	Right.
	And you probably didn't even hear, like I repeated a question twice when I asked you...
	Do you have problems with criticism in your personal life?
	And you gave me a kind of, well, no, the odd hiccup, but no, not at all, right?
	Not really.
	Which is not true.
	Your personal life includes your relationship with your parents, right?
	Yeah, that's very true.
	And the reason I asked you that question is I was looking for a realistic appraisal.
	And I got a, no, we're only going to talk about work.
	Right now, who stands to gain in your head from us only talking about work and not your personal relationships?
	Yeah, it's my previous image of myself, I guess.
	Your inner parents?
	Right.
	Because your inner parents are like, no, no, no, we're just going to focus on work here.
	Because that way, you get to still self-attack, right?
	Because if the problem has nothing to do with your parents, then you just have some weird, mysterious flaw.
	Right, yeah.
	Like, if you break your arm because you jump off a chair and fall on the wrong...
	And you go to the doctor, you say, well, I jumped off a chair and I broke my arm.
	They're like, oh, shit, well, I guess you've got to bind up your arm, right?
	Right.
	But if you go into the doctor and you say, I woke up like this, and I didn't fall out of bed, and then they're like, oh my god, your arm basically just exploded.
	Like, what the hell is wrong?
	You know what I mean?
	What the hell?
	This is much worse, right?
	If there's an injury without a cause, that's crazy.
	That's really dangerous.
	That's pathological.
	That's like, what the hell, right?
	But if you say, well, you know, this is how I was raised, and these are the effects, then okay, you jumped off a chair, you broke your arm, we can fix the arm, right?
	But it's not like your arm just exploded out of nowhere, right?
	It's like I naturally go through that.
	So what happened at the very beginning, sorry to interrupt, what happened at the very beginning was you said, I want to talk about work, and I started to talk about personal relationships, and what did you do?
	I gave it right back to work again.
	Oh, and to stay work.
	Work is safe.
	Work is safe.
	And if it's work and it's not related to how I was raised and it's not related to my personal relationships, then it's my fault.
	And then you also were willing to blame other people, right?
	Yeah.
	Now, I'm with you in that most people have no internal standards of how to treat people, and all they will do is treat you as well or as badly as you let them.
	Yeah.
	And then it's pitiful, right?
	But anyway, sorry, go ahead.
	I just wanted to say, I don't think I should...
	If my personal stuff's in line, it shouldn't make me...
	If I understand that, it's just like watching a gazelle in the field, right?
	You know what's going to happen?
	It shouldn't make me angry.
	So I think it's personal.
	You're right.
	Sorry, I didn't quite follow the gazelle in the field.
	Most people aren't very aware of how to or want to deal with people rationally and kindly.
	So, if I know that shouldn't, that would make me upset.
	Does that make sense?
	Right, right.
	Now, when you talk to your parents, do you not talk about anything of importance?
	Is that what I understood you saying?
	Nothing at all.
	It gets not uncomfortable on my end, but it's not...
	Well, it gets uncomfortable for me after it gets uncomfortable for them, basically.
	If I try to bring my new self into the relationship, I mean, it doesn't work.
	I have to be the old self.
	I mean, I'm not happy with that relationship.
	I haven't gotten to the...
	I didn't have such a...
	There was no violence from my parents when I was young.
	It was more of an emotional detachment than anything.
	Lots of material...
	Well-being and lots of superficial care of how was your day?
	And if I say nothing, I just got into the habit of saying nothing happened or didn't do anything.
	So you get into that rut in my childhood anyway.
	That's how you brush off their relationship, basically.
	Yeah, you said you would say nothing's happening?
	Yeah, I did say what did you do at school?
	Nothing.
	Yeah, but you know, that's a perfect description.
	Nothing is happening.
	Nothingness, emptiness, void.
	Nothing is happening.
	Right.
	In those empty interactions.
	Oh yeah, and the degree to which people we are drugged with detritus is truly chilling.
	You know, like there are literally books of sports statistics.
	There are fucking books full of sports statistics.
	Right.
	I mean, if that's not a straight shot of horse tranquilizing Novocaine to the frontal lobes, I don't know what is.
	Right?
	The amount to which people are willing to stretch out the thin rubber of their lives to the stretching and breaking point, talking about nothing at all.
	It's drugging people with stupid details.
	And that's how people live.
	This is what they do.
	And it's dissociating because it's so fucking boring.
	I think I survived my childhood through...
	I was a big reader when I was young, and those voices from the books, the thinkers, and a lot of fiction to begin with, but into later times non-fiction too, but those role models were kept...
	That's what kept my soul alive during that period, because no one in my...
	Life at all spoke about anything important.
	Even if I mentioned something, it was either ostracized or laughed at, basically.
	Not directly laughed at.
	I think I had a smart enough mouth to respond if I was attacked.
	Like at school, the bullies wouldn't normally focus on me because I couldn't send it back to them.
	But there was no role model of it.
	I was always looking for that person in my life who was actually thinking things like I was thinking, like wanting to go beyond the stupid conversations I was hearing.
	Right.
	Yeah, life is too short.
	Small talk shrinks the brain.
	Life is fundamentally too small.
	Little bits in doses, whatever.
	I'll shoot the shit with my dentist or whatever when she's cleaning my teeth.
	But, I mean, life is fundamental.
	She's weaponized.
	But, yeah, life is fundamental.
	Who cares?
	Precious, precious, short human breaths between us and the great beyond.
	I really, really, really can't spend my life talking about gossip and celebrities and the weather and sports and what Aunt Edna did and what Uncle Joe found in his backyard and how the car is performing and, oh my god, I mean, shoot me.
	Shoot me.
	I mean, the zombie films are just people like that, right?
	You've got to watch a film called Shaun of the Dead, which goes into this, which is basically...
	I mean, if there was a zombie attack, who the hell would notice?
	I mean, people might smell a little worse.
	There might be a couple of eyeballs hanging down over the cheeks.
	But as far as the general...
	Sports, politics, trivia, celebrity, gossip, boobs, tits, ass, drunk.
	I mean, God.
	I mean...
	The zombies would be like, oh, well, first of all, there's no brains to eat, and secondly, even if we took over, who the hell would notice?
	Yeah, it's a physical repulsion, almost, I feel, for that now, but I think I need to focus on my relationship with my parents, is what this conversation is telling me.
	Is that something you'd suggest?
	Well, you see, the funny thing is, is that I don't even know fundamentally what your relationship with your parents, and we'd be talking for an hour.
	I mean...
	You've given me very oblique things like physical comfort, emotional detachment, lack of connection, their discomfort and, you know, the trivia and so on, right?
	I don't think, I mean, it's like when I'm talking to them, it's like pressing buttons on a computer.
	I know what I need to do to get to the end of the evening or the end of the phone call and that's how that relationship is handled.
	So it's not a relationship.
	You're just manipulating, right?
	That's how they want to...
	I mean, if I go outside of that box, then there'll be problems.
	That's pretty big.
	It'll make...
	If I say something that...
	No, let me tell you what it is, because I know it's hard to see from the inside.
	Let me tell you what it is.
	If you exist, they don't exist.
	If they, quote, exist, you don't exist.
	Isn't that the demand?
	I mean, you know, tell me I'm wrong.
	I mean, I'm real happy to hear if I'm on my phone, right?
	Yeah, no, I think that's very true.
	I need to...
	I haven't put a lot of thought into that.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	You found me when?
	No, I mean, the...
	Wait, no, no, no.
	Back up, back up there.
	Okay, all right.
	2008.
	2008, right?
	So that would be five or six years ago, right?
	And you haven't really put much thought into your...
	Okay, I'll revise that to be more honest.
	No, no, I believe...
	Look, I believe you.
	Based on this conversation, I completely...
	The empirical evidence is uncompromising, right?
	I've approached it and stepped back.
	I think it would...
	But, I mean, this is the funny thing, because I do, I mean, I hear a long time, you're a donator, supporter, fantastic, love all that, but dude, did you not notice the topic?
	Did you not notice the topic popping up, you know, from time to time in every podcast known to man, right?
	Yeah, but I think I've had it in my mind that I can compartmentalize that part of me and develop beyond it.
	And that's wrong, right?
	What now?
	Okay, hang on.
	Let's unpack this.
	Compartmentalize yourself and do what?
	Again, move beyond it?
	What was that?
	Close off the parts of me that are controlled by my past and sort of develop...
	Like I said, you know, if I call my parents, I go into that persona, right?
	Dear God, man, but how many people are around you who smile when you sling this kind of bullshit?
	And I mean that with all love and respect.
	I mean, how do you get away with this stuff?
	I need to spend some time thinking about this.
	No.
	I mean, look, you're an intelligent fellow.
	Your language skills, I mean, as a translator, also, I mean, nobody can listen to the show unless they've got really good language skills.
	Your language skills are...
	Considerable, right?
	Huge.
	You're a smart guy, but man, you can sling some shit.
	No, don't apologize.
	I'm glad for the honesty.
	I really am.
	I think it's great.
	I mean, I feel like there's this big, giant, medieval catapult full of steam and cow dung, and it's like, Steph, if you could just stand a little bit...
	Hang on.
	Let me just wet my finger and we get the wind.
	Steph, if you could just take three steps to the left, I'm about to volley something your way, which I'm going to pretend is a conversation, but we're just going to cover you from head to toe in the most astonishing amounts of manure you've ever heard of, right?
	It's...
	Okay, so because you say, well, I figured I could compartmentalize stuff and blah-de-blah-de-blah, right?
	And then, what does that even mean?
	Tell me what, I mean, maybe I'm just not understanding, but it seems like an enormous amount of crap to me, but what does that mean?
	I thought that I could, maybe that wasn't the right wording, but I thought that I could develop I thought that I could develop my true self,
	but when I go to my parents, which I think I'm afraid to develop that topic, like I could just leave that where it was rather than touch that trigger button.
	What?
	I'm sorry, I still have no idea what you're doing.
	I thought I could develop myself emotionally and intellectually apart from my parents.
	And when a family get-together comes around, I just turn that off, so to speak, and just say what I used to say with them and not deal with them anymore.
	Does that make any sense?
	And was this a consciously thought out plan or something you're telling me now?
	Like, I guess this is what I thought.
	Was this thought, like, years ago?
	Yeah, I don't...
	I've known since I've started to think more about how I was treated when I was younger, that if I bring this...
	And I tried when I first ran into you.
	I was sort of, oh, this is amazing.
	I just have to...
	I'll be honest with them.
	I tried going down that road for half a conversation and there's tears from trying to talk to my mom about how she had treated me emotionally.
	I wish you had talked to me more about The instant I said that, it's all about my mom and how she felt when I tell her that and saying I don't love her.
	Oh, wow, that's just great.
	Let me see if I can guess.
	You were really upset, but you ended up comforting her.
	Yeah, yeah, exactly.
	Oh, she's good.
	Oh, she's good.
	Oh, sorry, I didn't.
	So there was a first big spurt of development when I ran into you and thinking, well, this knowledge is obviously...
	Very, very useful.
	Anyone that hears it is going to be wanting to take it on and put it into use in their own life.
	So I figured, well, my parents must be that way too, right?
	But I ran into that wall and that was scary.
	And after that, I don't think it was conscious, but I decided to lose it.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	Okay, but when you say stuff like, I ran into that wall and that was scary.
	Scary for who?
	Scary for me.
	You or your mom?
	Oh, well, okay.
	No, it was...
	Huh.
	No, it was scary for my mom.
	I was scared to break her...
	to hurt her, I guess.
	Yes, but okay, but...
	I know.
	Sorry.
	You know what?
	Your true self is like, fuck, we're stuck, man.
	Talk to Steph.
	I don't care if you got to believe the bullshit that it's about work.
	I don't care if you got...
	Yeah, fine.
	It's about work.
	Just for God's sake, will you go talk to Steph?
	Because we're totally stuck and confused and still being run by parental alters.
	I'm fine.
	Let's...
	Okay.
	Work and translation.
	Fine.
	Just for God's sake, get on the phone with someone who's going to call you out on this stuff because we're stuck, right?
	Let's put it...
	Got it.
	Got it.
	Which is why, right, you talk about work, I start talking about personal relationships, you're like, let's pretend he didn't say anything and go on with the work stuff.
	I knew that there's something.
	I knew that I needed your big guns here.
	Yeah, yeah, no, no, listen, I appreciate that.
	A smaller target would be slightly more challenging.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	I'm just kidding.
	I'm just kidding.
	Okay, so.
	How can I start, John?
	Your manipulation of yourself is to the advantage of your mother.
	I mean, forget your dad for the moment, because you just gave me something real with your mom, right?
	So, your manipulation of yourself is complete bullshit, and all it does is serve the needs of your mom.
	Who benefits from you compartmentalizing yourself, man?
	You?
	You?
	No, not at all.
	It's called splitting.
	It's unhealthy.
	It's called doublethink.
	It's unhealthy.
	Who benefits from you splitting yourself into opposing factions?
	That's my parents.
	It's not me.
	Of course.
	Of course.
	Okay, you run along to China, and you can be yourself in China, whatever that means.
	But don't you bring that fucking reality back to this doorstep, young man.
	Because in that light of day, we disappear into manipulative bullshit.
	It's so obvious, but when you said that, benefiting who?
	Splitting myself like that?
	That was just so obvious, I've never thought of that.
	Consistency, honesty, universality.
	Philosophy is the opposite of manipulation and splitting, because philosophy says, no!
	No!
	There's a value we call honesty.
	And it ain't here, but not over there.
	Right?
	It ain't in China, but not in New York.
	No.
	It be universal.
	There's a little key in UPB. It's one of the first letters.
	I can't remember what it is for the life of me now.
	Something like that.
	No.
	We've got a virtue called universality, which is honesty.
	Right?
	And if you are going to betray yourself for the sake of emotionally empty, manipulative, and destructive people, look, I hate to be the one who tells you this, but if your mom did not ask you soon afterwards what you meant, then she doesn't give much of a shit about you, in my opinion.
	I mean, I hate to be this blunt, but you're a long-term listener.
	But I'm an empiricist.
	And you brought something real up to your mom, and she dissolved into manipulative tears.
	And how do we know they're manipulative?
	Because she didn't follow up the question.
	Right?
	So if my daughter says something that makes me cry, I will have my tears.
	I will master myself.
	I will apologize and I will say, I don't want to make this about me because you're the one who's brought up something important.
	So ask your question again.
	I'm very sorry that I reacted in that way.
	Not that my feelings are bad, but I don't want to eclipse what you're saying.
	Man, let's start this again and I will really try.
	And if I then burst into tears again, I'll say, listen, I don't want to make this about me, but unfortunately, I'm not emotionally prepared for this topic.
	So I'll tell you why with the full goal of getting back to you, right?
	That is so beyond what my parents are capable of.
	It's just...
	Your mom is like, uh-oh, shit.
	Reality approaching, human being approaching, living soul approaching.
	I will weep.
	I will turn on the waterworks, and then that will make the scary behavior go away.
	And I can go back to being this dead-ass, dust-filled zombie.
	And we know that this is the case.
	If you bring up something that's important to you, and people manipulate you out of talking about it, and then they never follow up again, what does that tell you?
	Just be an empiricist.
	It's obviously a huge hurdle for me to look at.
	I mean, pointing it out now, I mean, it's so obvious, right?
	It's obviously very hard for me to be empirical about that.
	I don't want it to be true, so I've got to...
	No!
	God!
	You are so stuck up your parents' ass.
	I'm sorry about this.
	Who doesn't want it to be true?
	No, I think it's fair to say that I wish it wasn't true, right?
	Obviously, they don't want it to be true either that it's like this, right?
	But I wish it wasn't true, too.
	You know what I mean?
	No, I don't know what you mean.
	Like, I wish my parents were capable of doing what you just...
	No, the cost of that wish.
	Think of the cost of that wish.
	What does that wish cost you?
	Not facing the truth.
	What does it cost you to avoid the empirical truth of your mother's nature?
	One thing that comes to mind is costing me development potential in myself because I'm being held back by that relationship.
	I'm Development potential within yourself.
	Oh my god, you're such a translator.
	It's costing me a big giant invisible mole called maturity, with which I can navigate interstellar distances and travel through time.
	That's my thought.
	What would you say to it if you could speak Mandarin?
	Spock is my role model.
	Oh, I hear you.
	He had some parental issues too, if I remember rightly.
	A feeling from the self that will follow my parents, it almost feels immoral to go against them.
	Well, I hope not almost.
	It should feel completely immoral to go against them because that's all we're programmed to believe.
	I say almost immoral because I know it's not immoral.
	Yeah, but of course, you'd have had to be deaf to all propaganda.
	Of course, it's the endless propaganda.
	What does it cost you to refuse to face the facts about your parents?
	Myself.
	Right.
	Huh.
	What does it cost those around you for you to refuse to face the truth about your parents?
	Nothing.
	Nothing.
	What does it cost them?
	It costs them nothing, really?
	Are you talking about the people I care about, or just people in general?
	Yeah, the people you care about.
	The people around you, what does it cost them for you to avoid the truth about your parents?
	A real relationship with me.
	And what that means is you have a double risk in your life now, right?
	Which is one...
	To try and figure out your relationship with your parents, if any.
	And two, to figure out why you have people around you who were relatively comfortable with your avoidance of this issue and the degree to which it eclipses you in their hearts and souls, right?
	I'm feeling relieved.
	It feels like there's a...
	A blind has been opened, sort of.
	It's so obvious.
	It's so stupid.
	I'm trading myself for that relationship.
	It seemed like I could have both, but I can't.
	Are you talking about your parents?
	Yeah, I mean...
	Okay, your language is confusing to me.
	Having my...
	You're using the same word for your relationship with your wife and your children and your friends as you are with your parents.
	Yeah, and it's not true.
	It's a completely different level of connection.
	If the moment...
	It's not completely different.
	It's an opposite.
	Right?
	Right.
	It's an opposite.
	Look, you tried to become real to your mom, your mom squashed that down with all the manipulative maternal power at her command, and those crocodile tears, which sometimes feels like the entire seabed of femininity, and it never came up again.
	Right?
	Your true self was a predator, and like a curious cat, she sprayed water on its face and it ran away.
	Never to return, never to be asked to pack.
	Right.
	So, that is not a relationship.
	Right?
	If you have to be the opposite of yourself around your parents, that is not a relationship.
	That is the opposite of a relationship.
	Right?
	So, you know, there are solar systems where two suns orbit each other, right?
	Yeah.
	Now, if I were to say...
	That one of those suns has to be the opposite of a sun for this orbit to work.
	What would that mean to you?
	What sense would that make to you?
	If one of these suns had to be the opposite of a sun?
	Yeah.
	It's impossible.
	Right?
	Well, it's not only impossible, it's an incomprehensible statement.
	What the hell is an opposite of a sun?
	Okay.
	Right?
	It's something that...
	It exists in the alternate insanity universe of agnosticism or whatever you'd call it, right?
	There's no such thing as the opposite of a son.
	A son is there or it's not, right?
	But do you understand, Dave, that to your mother you are the opposite of a son?
	You have to be the opposite of who you are.
	Which is impossible and an incomprehensible concept.
	Thank you for pointing this out, Steph.
	It's way harder than I ever imagined to look at those.
	Conformity is not the opposite of identity.
	Conformity makes the concept of identity incomprehensible.
	And just as identity makes the habit of conformity incomprehensible, I will not now, nor will I ever in the future, be around people with whom I cannot be who I am.
	Because I don't have any choice anymore, fundamentally.
	I mean, the choice to not be who I am is so foreign to me now that it's basically like saying, Steph, how about heading up your mom's hoo-hoo and cloaking yourself in her womb again?
	I'd be like, I don't even know what the hell that means.
	I mean, I guess I understand it conceptually, but what the hell?
	I'm too big to fit in that dried-out maternal sack.
	And it's okay for you to say, Mom, Dad, you have to fit my standards for a while.
	Right?
	I'm an adult now.
	I'm a father myself.
	You have to fit my standards.
	And if that makes them uncomfortable, Then you have to give them the respect and the epistemological reality that it is their discomfort to deal with, not yours.
	They're the parents.
	You're the child.
	It is their discomfort to deal with.
	And do you understand the degree to which you let your mom get away with bullshit like crying you into non-existence like her tears are acid on a snowman, deluging from a great giant cumulus maternal tit in the sky and vanishing you into the sewers?
	The degree to which you let her get away with that is the degree to which you hate her beyond all measure.
	When you let people get away with erasing you, there is such rage in that because you are withholding from those people the only possible chance that they have for any kind of existence, any kind of humanity, any kind of connection.
	You are condemning them to an underworld of non-existence, of ghosts without even the corporeality to rattle a wind chime.
	There is such contempt and anger in refusing to tell the truth to people and in being complicit in their manipulations to non-existence.
	That amount of anger is extremely dangerous, in my opinion.
	Do you know how much the hatred there is in that?
	Are you talking about hatred in me or in their anger?
	Towards your mother within you.
	Oh, yeah.
	Look, you tried bullshitting me, and I actually care about you, not just as a source of donations, but also a great conversation, and as a father, like dad to dad, right?
	I care about you, and I won't.
	Accept that.
	Out of care, right?
	And you and I have never met.
	If I let you get away with bullshitting and avoidance, what contempt and disrespect would I have for you?
	This is why when I say you sure can sling a lot of bullshit, you laughed, right?
	You said you can't handle criticism?
	Bullshit!
	It's your fucking parents who can't handle criticism.
	You can!
	Do you know how scathing I've been in this conversation?
	Oh, I guess you're...
	You can't handle criticism?
	Are you insane?
	This is more criticism in half an hour than most people get in five lifetimes.
	So...
	If that's the case, why am I... I don't think that's even relevant.
	I was going to ask, why am I... I think it's going off on a tangent again.
	Why am I getting angry when I'm...
	Your parents can't handle criticism.
	And you have accepted that not being able to handle criticism is valid.
	So you've kept your parents' inability to handle criticism alive in your head, and whenever you experience criticism, it awakens their hypersensitivity, which you've assigned, and I'm sure is there for real as well.
	Sorry, this is super complex.
	Does that make any sense?
	It's all pointing to...
	Not only examine, but what I call a relationship with my parents is something I need to redefine.
	It's basically...
	No, not redefine.
	Oh my God, you're such a language guy.
	No, not redefine.
	Redefine in my mind is not a...
	No, listen, if I said, listen, you know, Dave, I really have to redefine my relationship with gravity.
	Right?
	You'd be like, that's not really open to your definition, Steph.
	It's called gravity for a reason.
	You've got to take it very gravely, right?
	So, no, no, no, no, no.
	You can't just walk up and redefine your relationship with your parents.
	You can't.
	Because I know them quite well.
	I know what they're going to do, and it's going to be the end of communication, basically, is what it's going to be.
	Well, I don't know any of that.
	But I do know that empiricists, we grit our fucking teeth and look at the facts.
	And if we don't know what the facts are, we go out and find them.
	Now, you have spent a lot of time avoiding and manipulating your parents.
	For reasons...
	That I'm incredibly sympathetic towards, and I don't think that was a negative or bad thing to do at all.
	I think it was an incredibly wise thing to do.
	I think it was essential survival strategy.
	I fully respect you for doing it.
	I think it was the right thing to do, and I think you should stop doing it.
	Because we are empiricists, which means we can find out the truth about our relationships, or what we call our relationships, very easily.
	If I go to my wife...
	Or I go to my friends, or I go to my daughter, and I tell them the truth about my experience, they're like, wow, tell me more.
	Right?
	I didn't know you feel that way, or that's interesting to me, or tell me more, or whatever it's going to be.
	They're curious.
	They want to know.
	When I went to my mother, and I told her what I thought and felt, You know, so you scream blue murder and flip the couch over in rage.
	That's not your mom.
	I get that, right?
	Your mom's more like water nymph.
	Back of the hand pressed to the forehead.
	My mom's more psycho, Valkyrie, whatever, right?
	I get it.
	But it's the same shit different pile, frankly.
	What noises do I have to make to make you disappear?
	To turn you into the impossibility called the opposite of yourself?
	What magic spells do I need to cast?
	What dances do I need to do?
	What scary things?
	And some people do it with anger.
	It's the male response, typically.
	And some people do it with self-pity.
	It's the female response.
	How, son, could you hurt me so much?
	Yeah, yeah.
	You want to find out how much of a non-victim these people are?
	Just keep pushing.
	Just keep pushing.
	Refuse to disappear.
	Refuse to vanish!
	Refuse to dissolve your spine into a tender little filament of an umbilical cord hanging out of your mother's unmentionables, right?
	Refuse to vanish.
	Stand your ground.
	You'll see very quickly that these poor little helpless southern women, they're really not so helpless after all.
	In fact, they can be pretty fucking strong and vicious, right?
	And you know that.
	You know that if you keep pushing...
	The helplessness and the tears and the victimization will instantly turn to rage and attack, right?
	I think with my mom, it would be an intensification of her sadness and manipulation that way, and then eventually it'll be, oh, Chris has been brainwashed, or Dave's been brainwashed, or Mike's been brainwashed, or my brother's served my sister.
	So I don't think she would get angry.
	But it would be an intensification.
	No, she would get angry and say, did you join that cult called Be Yourself?
	How do we get you out of that cult called Being Who You Are?
	How do we get you out of a cult called Honesty?
	Oh, God, I can't believe you got snagged by that cult called Tell the Truth About What You Think and Feel.
	It'd be more, oh, you've changed what happened in...
	What's wrong with you?
	That sort of stuff.
	Right.
	Right.
	But I think I need to have those conversations.
	I need to go...
	You need to find out the truth, right?
	If you think there are dinosaur bones in your backyard, get out your little duster and start brushing away, right?
	Find out what lies beneath.
	Be yourself no matter what they say.
	Right.
	I believe that.
	Sting, man had it down.
	The man had his problems.
	His mom threw his guitar at him and then smashed it.
	He said, my father died angry and I was angry with him.
	Break free of pettiness and manipulation.
	Be big hearted enough to offer the truth to people.
	And if it short circuits them, I think that's tragic.
	I think that's sad.
	But I will strike no unholy bargains to self-erase.
	I won't do it.
	I don't care how people have fucked up their lives.
	I don't care how many bad choices people have made.
	I don't care how much pettiness they've consumed and spat out.
	I don't care how much viciousness, how much rage, how much abuse, how much spanking they've dealt out.
	I am going to tell the truth as I see it and I'm going to be who I fucking am.
	And if that causes the world to shift in its orbit, And half the evil people on the planet get thrown off into space.
	Well, you shouldn't have been standing in evil to begin with.
	Because there's gravity in goodness, right?
	So...
	Sorry, I have to be who I am.
	Everyone else is taken.
	There's no other place I can go than in my own head.
	I can't jump from skull to skull until I find one that suits bad people around me better.
	I don't have that choice.
	So be your fucking self.
	Speak your truth.
	And if there are people around you Who tempt you with non-existence, blast through that and give them the full glory of who you are.
	Do not withhold yourself from the world.
	Do not piss on the incandescent gift of your existence.
	Don't drown yourself in the petty fog and dustiness of other people's ancient superstitions and unbeliefs and aggressions and culture and crap.
	No!
	Be a flair!
	We're all born that way.
	We're all born self-expressive.
	We're all born perfectly comfortable with being incredibly inconvenient to our parents.
	We shit.
	We piss.
	We wake up at night.
	We throw up on their shoulders.
	We scream.
	We cry.
	We are in our essence, in our humanity, perfectly comfortable with inconveniencing others.
	That's how we're born.
	That's how we grow.
	That's how we develop.
	Well, I choose to retain the ability to inconvenience the irrational.
	You know, I had a cancer in me last year, and I'm very glad that the surgeon's knife and the related medicines that I took proved extremely inconvenient to my cancer.
	And I bet you my cancer was like, oh shit, I hate this stuff, man.
	Good.
	Good.
	I'm only alive because...
	Medicine and surgery was highly inconvenient to the cancer within me.
	That's the only reason I'm alive, is inconvenience to that which dealt death to me.
	But why would I accept a spiritual death in place of a physical one and say, well, you see, I am now alive in my body, which gives me a great enclosure with which to kill my spirit.
	That is literally like being freed from unjust imprisonment after 40 years, going home and building a tiny cell in which to live.
	What a disgusting, though at times, of course, understandable insult to freedom.
	Be who you are, Dave.
	Be who you are.
	If it's inconvenient to other people, that's their goddamn business, not yours.
	Do not kill yourself because other people are dead.
	Do not follow people into the grave.
	Do not atomize yourself because others have shredded themselves into dust for the sake of their fears and their desire to conform with the history of the dead.
	Does that make any sense to you?
	Thank you very much for the shot in the arm.
	Full blast.
	Will you let me know how it goes?
	We'll do.
	We're going to have some conversations to have.
	Thank you.
	Thank you again, Steph, for everything.
	You're very welcome.
	Thank you for your support and a great conversation.
	Take care.
	All right.
	I think we can do Uno von Morcolyville.
	All right.
	Tobias is up next.
	He writes in and says, Stefan's recent podcast on Boredom really had an impact on him.
	He's a student studying for his master's degree, yet is bored every hour of the day and feels disconnected from both classmates and family.
	He has difficulty visualizing his future and has a hard time finding motivation.
	He wants to know what is the best way to overcome such boredom.
	But you will make a note, Mike, that we should do a show on boredom, right?
	Isn't that some sort of substance?
	Or barium, I'm thinking.
	Something from Breaking Bad, I'm sure.
	Right.
	Yeah, Mike's recommendation for me to see that show still stands.
	Like, hey, here's a show about a guy dying from cancer.
	Okay, okay.
	Should be really, really enjoyable and entertaining for you.
	I found it funny.
	No, I'm kidding.
	It's a good show, right?
	I'm sorry.
	Look, you've had a tough night.
	Why should I make it any easier?
	I mean, what are friends for?
	All right.
	I'm sorry.
	Tobias.
	Who was the name of our fine listener?
	Yes, Tobias, but you can call me Toby.
	Toby.
	Alright, fair enough.
	Toby.
	So, first of all...
	Were you listening to the show?
	Was it boring?
	No.
	It was not.
	It was not?
	Okay, so good.
	We have some capacity.
	Before not being bored.
	And there might be some overlap because you touched on some subject that we might touch on again, I imagine.
	So first of all, I'm gonna apologize for any broken English in advance because it's my second language.
	Oh, no problem.
	And also I'm a bit nervous, so if my mind just goes blank, it's because I'm nervous.
	Okay.
	So...
	The topic of boredom.
	Well, first of all, we already solved boredom, right?
	Because now you're nervous.
	Yeah.
	So, yay!
	Well, yeah, well, like you said in your podcast, like, I'm not bored right now because I'm here with you, but more like in general, there's not much going on in my life that it's fairly predictable, the same thing over and over again.
	It's not much happening.
	Right.
	And how old are you?
	I'm 28.
	Alright.
	And what do you study?
	Asian studies.
	And why are you studying Asian studies?
	The idea was to...
	I intended to start at the diplomat school, at the Swedish Foreign Office, which is a plan I actually kind of changed my mind a bit about.
	At that point I thought having a Master's in Asian Studies would look good for the resume.
	Right.
	So your goal is to work for the government?
	In some form or fashion or capacity, yes.
	Do you feel that is going to solve your problem of boredom?
	At this point, no.
	Because I feel I haven't aimed correctly.
	This is maybe not what I should have been doing from the start.
	Alright.
	And is there anything else that you would like to add?
	Well...
	Sorry, again, my mind goes blank, but...
	In your podcast you you talk about You know the lack of opportunity lack of courage and lack of connection and I think For me you You're very spot-on because all of these three all of these three seem to Fit me very well Especially the last one a lack of connection and Because I have a hard time really
	making friends with my classmates to really make the entire experience of studying more enjoyable.
	Right.
	Right.
	How long do you have to go in your PhD?
	It's two years.
	And it's a masters, not a PhD.
	Oh masters, okay.
	I'm only, this is my second semester out of four.
	And how were you disciplined as a child?
	Disciplined, well...
	I'm a bit spoiled, I suppose.
	By my parents.
	I'm the last child out of three.
	It's a very relaxed household.
	But being the last one, I was a bit spoiled.
	So you weren't disciplined, is that right?
	No.
	By discipline, you mean like getting hit?
	Yeah, being hit or timeouts all around.
	No, no.
	And you weren't given connection, is that right?
	I had a very close circle of childhood friends growing up in my hometown.
	And later, when we grew up and people started leaving, either moving to new towns or even going abroad, The need to really start looking for new connections didn't emerge until that point, and that was kind of just a few years ago, really.
	Right.
	Okay, so with your parents, did you have connections?
	I think you said based upon my podcast that that wasn't, but what does that mean?
	How did that look?
	Okay, what's the question?
	Well, my...
	Connection with my parents.
	Did you have connection with your parents?
	So they didn't discipline you, you said?
	Yeah, sure.
	I mean, they did not discipline me, but I had a good connection with my parents.
	You had a good connection with your parents?
	I would describe it as such.
	It was a very relaxed household in general.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	But I thought you said that when you listened to my podcast, it resonated with you where there was a lack of connection.
	Well, first of all, I don't know my brothers that very well, because they're kind of older than me.
	And I noticed when there's family reunions, family gatherings...
	I feel like the odd man out still of the family.
	I know I'm welcome because I'm part of the family, but I'm the quiet one.
	I don't feel like I have anything to add to family discussion.
	Because they always bring such great stories from...
	Because they have their own family, so they always have a lot of stories to tell from their job, from their work, or anything such.
	But not me, because I have a fairly predictable everyday life.
	Not much to add.
	Maybe you're boring.
	That thought had occurred to me.
	I mean, I tell you, I feel like you've called me up and I'm doing all the work in the conversation.
	So far, I've been the one talking, right?
	Well, but contradicting yourself and not noticing it and all of that, right?
	So, I mean, I sort of give you an example, right?
	So, let me ask you this.
	Does your family show interest in you when you get together to chat with them?
	No.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, you're studying this stuff.
	You're doing your master's in Asian studies.
	And they don't ask you questions about what you're doing or what you're thinking or what you're learning or what your future is going to be or anything like that?
	Beyond the just general question, how is your studies going, good or bad?
	Not really.
	Why do you think they don't ask you any questions?
	Well, I'm not sure actually.
	Alright.
	You're a smart guy.
	If you had to guess, what would you say?
	Why do you think they don't ask you a lot of questions?
	I mean, maybe the topic is not that interesting to them.
	Maybe I don't join in in their discussions.
	Maybe I am...
	I'm putting myself in a position where I'm a bit invisible and not noticed.
	Alright.
	I think it's true that anyone who's enthusiastic about anything is interesting.
	I mean, I can listen to someone talk about stamp collecting.
	If they're really enthusiastic about it, that's interesting to me.
	So it's not the topic, right?
	Hmm.
	Yeah, right.
	So, like I told you before, I'm having regrets about this particular program I'm in.
	Maybe it's not for me.
	Regrets are fascinating.
	Regrets and doubts are fascinating because we all face them, right?
	So, the fact that you're having a regret does not mean that you're boring or does not mean that people are going to ask you more questions, right?
	So...
	Was there a question in there?
	Why do you think people don't ask you?
	Because of lack of enthusiasm.
	What do you mean, lack of enthusiasm?
	That's a concept without anything to affix it to.
	Yours, theirs?
	Well, mine.
	Your lack of enthusiasm.
	Okay.
	So, is it because it's a lot of work?
	to have a conversation with you?
	Generally, no.
	But maybe it takes a while to get to know me.
	Alright, do you think that it's easy for me to have a conversation with you at the moment?
	No.
	Okay, good.
	So why do you think it's hard for me to have a conversation with you at the moment?
	Well, maybe I'm not explaining myself very well here.
	And maybe I'm contradicting some of my previous statements as well.
	Well, it's because my sort of experience is that I feel like I'm imposing on you.
	You know, like you're playing a really great game of Candy Crush and I'm trying to tell you about my bowel movement this morning.
	Sorry, that's not the impression I'm trying to give now.
	Well, sorry, I'm really... I'm really...
	My mind is going blank.
	Do you have anything in your life that you're angry about?
	Angry.
	It's hard to pin down like a specific point.
	But again, this lack of connection.
	I have been trying to reach out to classmates.
	I tried joining the debate club.
	No, no, no.
	You're avoiding the question now, right?
	Now you're talking to me about how it's not your fault and you're trying all this stuff, right?
	do you have anything in your life to be angry about or that you are angry about or that you might be angry about no No, I mean, I don't feel angry in general.
	I mean, I'll tell you why I asked that question, is that I'm annoyed.
	It doesn't mean that you're annoying or anything.
	I'm just telling you that I'm annoyed, right?
	Because you're very...
	I experience you as very sort of withheld, very distant, very monosyllabic.
	I don't feel like you're really investing yourself in this conversation, right?
	Yeah, well, I'm really sorry about that.
	No, no, I'm not criticizing.
	I'm not criticizing.
	There's nothing to be sorry about.
	This is what you're genuinely experiencing, and I'm telling you what I'm genuinely experiencing.
	What are you experiencing in the call?
	In the call, well...
	The thing is, I would talk about boredom, and...
	I thought I had some great things I wanted to talk about before, but then once the call is up, it's my turn.
	It just goes, you know, what the hell did I have to say, really?
	Do you have any emotions that are occurring at the moment?
	Well Right now, um...
	Right now, no.
	Not really.
	You know, sharing is caring, right?
	I mean, it's more than just a rhyme that's never used in any 50 Cent songs.
	Sharing is caring, right?
	Um...
	When you withhold yourself from people, when you don't share yourself, and I'm not saying this conscious or a choice, right?
	But when you withhold yourself from people, you don't share yourself with people, particularly people in your life, your family or whatever, right?
	When you don't share, there's a lack of caring, and in fact, boring people, I always experience them as hostile.
	Hmm.
	Because it puts other people in a very difficult situation, right?
	So you're saying, Steph, I've really been hanging on the line for like, what, two hours and a half plus to talk to me, right?
	And I feel like I'm pulling teeth, right?
	So this puts me in a difficult situation, right?
	I either become really assertive and just start drilling, right?
	Which, you know, I can do.
	I'm comfortable with doing that.
	Or I can sort of try and tease you out of the cave, so to speak, right?
	Right.
	Which I don't think will work.
	Do you feel that this is a positive conversation to be in at the moment, or a negative conversation, or is it neither positive nor negative?
	Neither.
	It's neither positive nor negative.
	Right.
	Do you see any reason to continue the conversation if it is neither positive nor negative for you?
	Well, no.
	I mean, if you're indifferent to the conversation, again, I'm not being critical.
	I know what you mean.
	If we're sitting watching a movie together and you say, well, I'm completely indifferent to this movie, I'd say, well, let's go, right?
	No, I know what you're going for.
	So let me ask you again.
	Is it worthwhile for you to continue in this conversation if it's neither positive nor negative for you?
	Something in me says no, but part of me also wants to continue having discussions Maybe there is something worth exploring.
	Oh, there's something worth exploring, which is you.
	Right, so I think part of you wants to bail on the conversation and I think part of you wants me to go hardcore.
	That's my thought.
	Yeah, part of me wants to run away, actually.
	Sure, sure, of course.
	Of course.
	Do you think that how you present yourself to people and how you converse with people is going to bring people close to you or make them interested in you?
	Usually I try to be more humorous, but even at best I come across as fairly, you know, just a guy in the corner.
	So you're willing to entertain people, but that's not being close to people, right?
	No, no.
	Okay, so do you think that the way that you present yourself to people is inviting for them to be close to you or to be curious about you?
	It's at least a first step towards...
	Uh, establishing such connections, but if it doesn't work, then I'm really bad at taking the next step.
	Okay, Tobias, you're either going to answer my questions or not.
	Okay?
	Stop bullshitting me with all of this verbiage.
	You're either going to answer my questions or you're just going to dance around and I'm going to fucking hang up.
	Okay?
	I hate to be frank with you, but, you know, we've been 20 minutes here, right?
	Do you think that the way that you present yourself is inviting for people to get to know you or be curious about you?
	As a first humorous impression, maybe.
	Humor doesn't count.
	We already talked about that.
	That's just entertaining people.
	I can watch a comedian.
	It doesn't mean that I'm close to him, right?
	No.
	Alright, then no.
	Okay, so no.
	So why is it that you want to present yourself in a way that does not make people curious about you or want to get to know you?
	Why don't I?
	Yeah.
	For everything that we do, there's secondary gains, right?
	Yeah.
	Secondary gains are like the hidden benefits for things that we do that at first seem sub-optimal or whatever, right?
	So a woman who's tied up in a relationship with an abusive guy gets a secondary gain of not challenging her parents' abuse of her, right?
	Because she's recreating it in her life, she's normalizing it, she's still wrapped up in that relationship, so she doesn't have to challenge her.
	Her relationship with her parents, right?
	So there's secondary gains in stuff that doesn't make sense on the surface, right?
	So you, you know, boredom is isolation.
	That's sort of my fundamental argument that I've made before and I won't make it again.
	People can listen to the show.
	So boredom is isolation and you sound to me astoundingly isolated.
	I am afraid that some of it may even be self-imposed.
	Some of it may even be self-imposed?
	It's self-imposed!
	You know, it's like me coming in with a third-degree sunburn and saying, well, some of it may have had to do with exposure to the sun, right?
	No, it's exposure to the sun!
	That's the sunburn, right?
	It is self-imposed.
	But it's not like I haven't tried to reach out.
	But if you're reaching out in the way that you're reaching out to me, you're simply doing that to confirm your isolation.
	To then say to yourself, like if you never reached out, you'd say, well, I'm isolated because I never reach out.
	But if you reach out in a way that drives people away, then you get to say, well, even when I reach out, I'm isolated.
	You're confirming the isolation, right?
	Right.
	Right?
	You know, it's like if I show up in a bathing suit to get a sales job and I don't get the job, I'm like, you know, even when I try to get a job, I don't get a job.
	You see, I'm just setting myself up to be more frustrated and isolated, right?
	I mean, this is a conversation you've been looking forward to, right?
	I have, actually, yeah.
	Yeah.
	I believe you.
	I mean, I believe you've said to yourself, oh man, I can't wait to talk to Seth, right?
	And then when you listen back, I'm telling you, Toby, you'll be shocked at what you hear.
	A closed-off, emotionally unavailable...
	guy who is like I'm trying to corner him and selling him some encyclopedias when there's an internet right so what is the gain that you get from keeping people at a distance I don't know.
	I don't know the answer to this one.
	See, you just gave me a clear and direct answer.
	I kiss you on your giant forehead.
	You're welcome.
	Good.
	Thank you.
	No, that's great.
	And I don't mean that sarcastically.
	Thank you.
	You don't know.
	You don't know.
	Of course, if you knew, it would not be happening, right?
	Okay, so do you have a secret?
	Secret?
	Uh...
	Because, you know, people will often keep themselves distant from other people because they have a secret.
	Right.
	No. - Oh.
	It's a secret just that you're really boring.
	I'm not sure what I mean by secret.
	Are you into weird sex stuff?
	Do you have a drug habit?
	Are you being pursued by extraterrestrials?
	Do you ride unicorns?
	Do you not have a safe word for whatever...
	S&M dungeon you end up in every other Saturday.
	I mean, do you have a secret that if people get close to you, they'll be like, holy shit!
	No.
	I don't have any major secrets as such, no.
	Alright.
	Do you think that you are interesting?
	I understand I may not come across as interesting, no.
	That's not...
	You're back to filibustering me, brother.
	Sorry.
	Do you think that you are interesting?
	Yes.
	And what is interesting about you?
	Yeah, the porous is not...
	I'm not sure how to answer this question in just a few sentences, but...
	No, no.
	If I go to a car dealership and I say, why should I buy this car, and there's like a 20-second pause, I'm like, hmm, right?
	Isn't it your job to know why I should sell this car?
	Why I should buy this car?
	And isn't it your job to know why you're interesting?
	I mean, because you want to connect with other people, so it's kind of your job to know why you're interesting, right?
	Right.
	So, what's the pause?
	Is your interestingness so obtuse and incomprehensible and interstellar that you have to translate it into basic Klingon for me?
	I mean, what is interesting about you?
	I don't mean that like there's nothing.
	I'm genuinely like, why should people want to get to know you?
	What benefit will they get?
	That's worth the cost.
	And worth all of the competing, like for everyone who wants to, sorry, for everyone you want to get to know you, there are like 50 other people who want them to get to know them, right?
	Tons of lonely people, tons of isolated people in the world, right?
	It's not just a Beatles song, right?
	Look at all the lonely people, right?
	So there's lots of people out there who want connection, who are out there selling their wares in the market of Connectivity, right?
	So why should someone choose you?
	I suppose I would describe myself as loyal and dependable.
	Okay, they get a dog, how have they not replaced you? how have they not replaced you?
	You know, like there's how many podcasts?
	There's probably millions of podcasts.
	Why should people listen to this podcast?
	Because I'm insane about truth.
	I'm deranged mental about truth.
	And because I think that people can hear or participate in conversations here that they can't get anywhere else.
	Right.
	And I'm just saying that's me, right?
	I would take the kinds of risks that other people are unwilling to take.
	Yeah.
	And I will insult people into caring about themselves.
	So, I think it's fair to say that you're not entirely sure why people would be interested in you.
	No, I'm not.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So this is a clue as to why people aren't interested in you, right?
	Yes.
	And so if you don't believe that you're interesting, A, you're right, right?
	Because you're not going to be open and you're not going to take risks and you will have already given up, right?
	I don't do a lot of auditioning for ballet companies because I don't think I'll ever be good at ballet.
	I have very little flexibility and I'm 47, right?
	Even if I had great flexibility and great potential, there's no point starting ballet at 47, right?
	So I don't show up to any ballet auditions.
	How many ballet auditions do you think I get?
	How many ballet parts do you think I win?
	Zero.
	Because I already know that I'm not good at ballet, so I don't show up for the auditions, so I don't get the parts, right?
	And if you don't believe that you're interesting, then you will not present yourself in a way that is engaging to others and your hypothesis will be confirmed, right?
	Right.
	So the question then becomes how to break the...
	No, not yet.
	Not yet!
	Everybody wants to leap to the answer, right?
	Right?
	Right.
	Because all we've done is said that maybe you're heading in the wrong direction and then says, well, where should I go?
	I don't know, but I sure know that I think you're heading in the wrong direction.
	I don't know where you should go, right?
	So now we go to the secondary gains, right?
	Now the secondary gains are the people who benefit in your life from you perceiving that you're boring.
	The people who benefit from me being boring.
	Yes.
	Well, it would be no one, really.
	Well, do you benefit from thinking that you're boring?
	You say that very certainly, although we already talked about secondary gains, right?
	Maybe I don't understand the term of secondary gains.
	Secondary gains is you gain some benefit, From thinking that you're boring, otherwise you wouldn't do it.
	Because to say you gain no benefit from thinking that you're boring would be incomprehensible, right?
	Because then it would be to say that you have a core belief which conditions how you present yourself and makes you isolated and boring and lonely, and you have no positive incentive to pursue that behavior.
	That would literally be like saying, I want to sell cars to people who don't want cars.
	Well, they don't have the incentive to buy them, so you can't sell them to them, right?
	People respond to incentives and our behavior is a response to our thoughts, right?
	to our perceived benefits and costs in interactions, right?
	So if you say, well, I can't possibly, I get no benefit from thinking that I'm boring, Then you're saying that you're engaging in behavior that gives you no benefit whatsoever, which wouldn't make any sense, right?
	I suppose if I isolate myself, I don't have to deal with people who would either be mean or don't like me.
	Well, that's true, but I think that's too generic.
	Anyone could say that, right?
	It's not personal and it doesn't have that ring that comes from some sort of connection.
	It's like saying, well, if I never buy anything, I won't ever be disappointed.
	Well, I mean, anyone could say that about anything, right?
	It doesn't really provide any clarity to an individual situation.
	Everyone could say that, but you're the one who's then believed that he's not interesting.
	Whereas other people deal with that in other ways.
	So it's not causal, if that makes sense.
	sense?
	Something must be more specific to you.
	Right?
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, I understand what you're saying.
	I'm thinking hard about what it could be, but the answer doesn't come immediately.
	No, no, that's good.
	If the answer came immediately, I wouldn't be sweating with this work.
	I mean, actually, armpits are dripping.
	Anyway, so, who in your life benefits from you thinking that you're boring?
	Because, look, it's not specifically beneficial to you.
	Nobody sits there and says, boy, I hope when I grow up I think I'm really boring.
	That's my big goal.
	I want to be a fireman, but even better, I want to be a boring fireman, right?
	Nobody wants that for themselves in and of themselves, right?
	Right?
	So it must be of benefit to somebody else.
	For you to think that you're boring.
	Someone else.
	Right, so we talked earlier about the woman who's in an abusive relationship.
	And if her father was abusive, he benefits from her continuing to be in an abusive relationship, right?
	Because then she never questions him.
	She's too busy trying to put out the fires in her own household and normalizing the abusive behavior to ever question his behavior, right?
	He might, in fact, introduce her to an abusive guy.
	guy, right?
	Do your parents think that you are interesting?
	My parents...
	Probably not that much.
	Was there a time when your parents did think that you were interesting?
	When I was younger.
	Elementary school.
	And how do you know that?
	I had lots of friends at that age.
	And my parents liked having everyone over.
	You're not answering the question.
	You're talking about your friends and socializing.
	So, did your parents find you...
	At what age do you think that your parents found you interesting?
	What age?
	Early elementary school.
	What age is that?
	Seven, eight, nine, ten.
	Okay, so from the age of 7 to 10, your parents found you interesting?
	Yeah.
	You're laughing.
	Why?
	Well, I don't want to be.
	I'm not too comfortable putting a too specific number on it.
	Obviously, we're not going down to the millisecond here.
	I get that.
	But just some age range.
	Now, did they find you interesting before that?
	I don't know.
	Why?
	I don't remember.
	You don't remember before the age of seven?
	No, I didn't think about this issue at that time.
	Well, I'm asking you to think about it now.
	I'm not sure how to answer it, though, because I don't...
	Well, my daughter's five.
	If somebody asked her, does your dad find you interesting, what'd she say?
	She would say yes.
	Of course.
	He's always asking me what I think and feel.
	Right, right?
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	Okay, so do you remember things before the age of seven, or you just don't remember?
	I'm sorry to be grilling you like a lawyer or something.
	I'm just really trying to pinpoint some important stuff.
	Do you not remember before the age of seven, or do you just not remember if your parents found you interesting?
	Just not if I'm interesting, but I imagine they did.
	Like every parent finds their children interesting in some way or another.
	What?
	Oh, God, no.
	Oh, that's not true at all.
	Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
	Parents, most parents, most moms in particular, do not find their children interesting.
	I mean, that's fairly well established, right?
	So in terms of lists of what moms like to do, spending time with their children is like eighth or ninth or tenth on a list, and I'm sure that's just put in there because they finally remembered something that probably makes them sound better, right?
	So no, I mean, there's many, many parents who do not find their children interesting at all.
	And of course, a lot of parents who propagandize their children.
	And when you propagandize someone, you're saying, you're not interesting.
	Hmm.
	Because then you're telling them what to think.
	You're telling them you've got to believe in Jesus, or you've got to salute the flag, or you've got to make your bed this way.
	When you boss people around, you're saying, I'm not interested in you.
	Right?
	So I don't think you can say, well, I guess my parents found me interesting like most parents find their children interesting, right?
	Thank you.
	Well, again, I'm not sure how to answer the question, then, no.
	Well, I'll tell you how to answer the question, which is, you know, I sound incredulous and I apologize for that, but...
	Do you know how to know if someone finds you interesting?
	Well, they would like to know more about you.
	Right.
	Right.
	And in a value-neutral kind of way, right?
	Like, a salesman will want to know more about you so that he can refine his sales pitch, right?
	Sure.
	But he has a motive, right?
	He's attempting to find out how he can get at your wallet, right?
	Nothing wrong with it.
	I'm just, you know.
	But people who ask you questions because of who you are, right?
	I mean, I ask my daughter questions, right?
	We're in the midst of designing the greatest restaurant in the known universe.
	And I want to know...
	What she thinks about where we should put the butterfly conservatory and where we should put the giant trampoline room and where we should put the chocolate volcano and where we should put the birds that you can feed and also how we should train the birds to bring the bread rolls to people's plates.
	We're designing the greatest restaurant in the known universe.
	I'm not doing that because I intend to invest in this and make a lot of money, right?
	So I'm asking her because I find it fascinating.
	I think she's really good at coming up with great ideas for restaurants.
	Yeah.
	I mean, mini golf with meatballs, you can't beat that stuff, right?
	So when people ask you a lot of questions about yourself, just you, because they're curious about what you think and feel and they take pleasure in your thoughts and your feelings.
	Without an ulterior motive, that's when people are showing an interest in you, right?
	Sure.
	So did that happen?
	With my parents?
	No, with my daughter.
	Yes, with your parents.
	I'm just trying to remember where we left off before.
	Right.
	Yes, that happened.
	Yeah, I don't believe you for a second.
	I'm sorry, I've got to call bullshit on this.
	Not because I'm trying to confirm any theory of mine.
	You said it in a way that completely invited me to call bullshit, right?
	Yeah, that happened.
	No, would they ask me questions?
	Yes, they would.
	Okay, so they took a great interest in your thoughts and feelings.
	Yes.
	Alright.
	and you said from about the age of 7 to 10 they did this, and then what happened?
	What happened?
	They became a bit more distant.
	And why?
	Why?
	I wouldn't know why.
	But I remember...
	Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
	No.
	That is an answer that doesn't square with what you've already told me.
	Because...
	If they showed great interest in who you were from pre-memory until the age of 10 or so, that's 10 years of intimacy, right?
	10 years of connection, 10 years of interest, 10 years of love, right?
	So then if they start to become more distant and you have that relationship with them, what would happen?
	Like if I don't talk to my wife for an hour, what's she going to say?
	She's going to ask what you've been doing the last hour.
	She's going to say, are you okay?
	Or what's going on?
	Or is something, you know, why?
	I mean, I talk to her when I'm upset, so I can't imagine why.
	But if I didn't, right, theoretically, she would notice that there had been a distancing and she would ask me about it, right?
	And then I would talk to her about it, right?
	So if your parents were interested in you and you had this close connection and a relationship and then they became slightly more distant, as you said, you would ask them and they would Because you had a close relationship.
	Yeah.
	And then that problem would be solved, right?
	Maybe.
	What do you mean, maybe?
	Well...
	I'm going to change my answer to yes, actually.
	Okay.
	So then you weren't that close before.
	You mean before the age of...
	Before elementary school or...
	Yeah.
	I mean, if you said, well, they were very, I don't believe you for a second, but I mean, I'm not, you know, if you, I can't prove it.
	And you have, you have all the cards.
	You hold all the cards in this conversation, right?
	I know you're not telling me the truth.
	I know you're making up stuff and you've got a kind of smoke superiority about making up stuff.
	Like you think you're getting away with something by not telling me the truth.
	I mean, I'm going to go back to my life of intimacy and love and connection and no boredom whatsoever.
	And you're going to have to wake up tomorrow who you are.
	I don't know what victory you're thinking you're trying to achieve.
	It's baffling to me.
	But no, I'm pointing out, Toby, that what you're saying doesn't make any sense.
	Right?
	I'm not...
	And you're not shaking yourself out of this bullshit and saying, you know what, Steph?
	You're right, what I'm saying doesn't make much sense.
	Right?
	So what am I doing?
	You're not doing any of that.
	You're just grimly plodding on, spewing the most incomprehensible nonsense.
	Like, you're winning.
	I'm not considering myself winning.
	You're not.
	You just laughed!
	Yeah, because I don't agree with your assessment that I somehow lying...
	It's not my assessment.
	You said, no, I'm not saying you're consciously lying, right?
	But I didn't say you're a liar.
	I said I don't believe you.
	I said you're saying nonsense.
	Nonsense literally means nonsense.
	Doesn't make sense, right?
	You know, while my parents were, we were really, I don't remember before seven, between the ages of seven to ten, they thought it was really interesting, we were really close, there were no problems, I had lots of friends, and then when I was ten, they became distant, and I don't have no idea why or what, like, none of this makes any sense, right?
	And I'm telling you, this is the one chance that I can imagine is going to bungee into your life, where you can talk to someone about something real.
	This is not going to happen to you tomorrow.
	This is not going to happen to you next week.
	This is not going to happen to you next year.
	Have you had a conversation like this before where somebody is really trying to talk to you seriously and directly about the issues that you brought up?
	Right.
	Do you think it's going to happen again soon?
	Most likely not, no.
	Most likely not.
	Do you think that you're maximizing...
	Your possibility of using this time productively.
	Okay.
	How could you use this time more productively?
	Be more straightforward and honest, I suppose.
	those.
	Right.
	And if you were to be more straightforward and honest, what would you say?
	On a specific topic or just in general?
	I don't know.
	If you were to be more honest with me, what would you say?
	Don't ask me what you would be more honest about.
	That's asking the impossible for me because I don't know Now I'm not I'm not sure quite to answer this question I'm not sure what to say.
	Are your parents and were your parents very interested in you?
	Yes.
	When you were a child?
	Then how is it possible that you don't think you're interesting?
	And how is it possible that you have developed the habits of adroitly and skillfully keeping people at bay with obfuscation, with confusion, with pretending to be ignorant with saying things that don't make any sense and then not correcting yourself when they're pointing out?
	How is it that you developed all of these incredible skills for keeping people at bay if you were really close to your parents?
	What you're telling me makes about as much sense as me saying, you know, I speak fluent Mandarin, even though I've never been exposed to the language.
	It's obvious from the outside, you think that you're fooling people because you're inside it.
	I'm telling you.
	Toby, my friend, I mean this with compassion, with caring.
	What you're saying is not possible.
	These skills that you have to keep people at bay and to keep them distant and to keep them confused and to keep them off balance, they didn't just appear out of nowhere.
	These are lifelong skills learned to an unconsciously refined degree.
	right and they aren't learned by children who have a genuinely close connection with their parents and who genuinely understand how interesting they are and
	So I'm asking you again, if you are going to be honest in this, perhaps even once in a lifetime opportunity for conversation, what would you tell me that you've been hiding?
	Like, I want to answer this question, but I just don't know the answer right.
	I'm not sure.
	And I believe you.
	I completely believe you.
	And I'm sorry to be trying to corner you or anything like that.
	I believe that if you had something to say, you would say it.
	So I'm going to fully accept that.
	But if you're saying things to me that don't make any sense, and not just to me, but I think in general, and you don't know what the truth is, then I can't continue the conversation, right?
	Right.
	And it's not because you're not telling me what I want to know.
	I have no idea what the truth is.
	I know that what you're telling me doesn't add up together in the way that truth generally does.
	But I believe you when you say...
	That you don't know what to say that's different.
	Right.
	So I, you know, I would suggest talking to a therapist, right?
	If you're in school, right, you can get that for free, right?
	Or heavily subsidized or something like that.
	I think that's really important.
	And even, you know, go talk to a therapist a couple of times, and your therapist may say, you know, that idiot amateur on the internet doesn't know what he's talking about, and you call me up and tell me that too.
	That's fine, right?
	Maybe I don't.
	It's always a distinct possibility, right?
	But I hope that what I've done is said that you're missing some information about your history, some cohesiveness about your history.
	And I'm raising a child who's emotionally connected and emotionally available.
	Right.
	And she's never frustrating to talk to.
	I never feel like my head is spinning.
	I never have to sweat with effort trying to keep sense and reality about me when I'm talking to her.
	And that may just be my experience, right?
	Right.
	So, and I certainly do, but I think...
	I would look at the skill set that you developed and I would make the case that it didn't come out of nowhere and it's worth exploring where it came from.
	Right.
	And I think the best place to do that would be with a therapist.
	And again, it could be complete nonsense, but if you would humor me and give it a shot for a couple of times, I think it might be worthwhile.
	At least it would be eliminating something if it doesn't turn out to be the case.
	No, I can do that.
	I can try it.
	I would appreciate that.
	And if you do get a chance to drop me a line, even if it is to say what enormous nonsense you had in terms of conversing with me on the internet, I would really appreciate that.
	Or the opposite.
	I can drop you a line if you're completely correct and stroke your ego a bit.
	It could be.
	Yeah, probably somewhere in the middle or whatever, right?
	Because I don't even know what I'm correct about.
	I mean, I just know that something's not sitting together.
	And I think that for people to be interested in you...
	They need to have something that's cohesive about you and not mostly just negation.
	So that would be my thought about it.
	And look, I really do appreciate you calling in.
	I mean, I know it's a tough call.
	And, you know, maybe it went in directions that are unexpected to you.
	Very unexpected.
	I... I wanted to talk about lack of connection, but I wasn't completely sure which road it was going to go down to.
	I wasn't even sure we were going to talk about my parents because I didn't think that in particular was the issue.
	Right.
	So it's kind of interesting it went down that path.
	Right.
	And it may not be your parents.
	It may be something else entirely.
	That's, I think, a useful place to start.
	All right.
	Well, it is 11.30, so I must continue on with the call.
	I do thank the two callers.
	I'm sorry for the other callers.
	We had some technical issues and calls went pretty long.
	But thank you so much.
	I hope that you will help support this amazing conversation.
	FDRURL.com forward slash donate.
	And, you know, we take the Bitcoins, we take the Federal Reserve notes, and all our, Litecoin still, all are gratefully, gratefully appreciated.
	And have yourselves a great, great week.
	And I look forward to the next show, as I always do.
	We've got some very interesting stuff in the pipe ready to roll.
	I did The Truth About Abraham Lincoln, which I think is going to be kind of mind-blowing.
	That was pretty mind-blowing stuff to me as well.
	We've got a bunch of shows in the pipe that are going to come out that I think are really cool.
	And if you're listening to this after they have come out, circle back in and check them out.
	So thank you, everybody.
	March 2nd and March 5th, there will not be call-in shows.
	Yes.
	March 2nd and March 5th.
	There will be no call-in shows.
	So, don't.
	He said defiantly.
	Alright, thanks everyone.

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