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Feb. 13, 2014 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

03:06:59

2615 The Secret Behind The Secret - Wednesday Call In Show February 12th, 2014

Rebounding from Cancer, pretty people as drug dealers, self-help victim paralyzation, familial pressures of leaving the Mormon church, deciphering motives of fictional characters, sexual consent in a free society and dealing with parent-toddler challenges.

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	Hi everyone, it's Mike from Freedom Main Radio.
	Steph is here, but first I wanted to give you guys a little story from today, which was kind of amusing.
	It was right after dinner, and I'm over at Steph's place, and Isabella was going to do a performance for everybody.
	She was going to dance and sing, and she gave us all money out of the change jar.
	I actually had a $5 bill on me, and the deal was, you know, she performs, and then she comes and collects the money.
	Simple enough, makes sense to me.
	So she danced, performs, fantastic.
	And comes over, you know, Steph gives her the change, you know, my wife gives her the change, and comes over to me, I have the $5 bill, and I hand it to her, and I go, do you have change?
	And she goes, yep, grabs it and just walks on by.
	Good girl.
	Good girl.
	That's exactly right.
	Exactly right.
	Great stuff.
	We are ready to go.
	Aren't we going to do her rendition of Fa la la la la la la la la Gay apparel, gay apparel.
	Yeah, anyway, she's cute as three buttons.
	All right, I've got an introduction, but I'm going to...
	Okay, all done.
	You can play that back for you later, slower.
	But let's move on to the callers.
	All right, Stephen, you're up first today.
	Stephen, go ahead.
	Hey, Steph, can you hear me?
	Can, go ahead, my brother, what's up?
	Excellent, excellent, good, huh?
	I thought I was going to be able to see you face-to-face on the Skype chat here, stare deeply into your eyes or something.
	No, listen, just call up.
	You can just type hunkasaurus into your Google image search.
	It's almost the same.
	You got that handsome mugshot you got there viewing your shoes.
	I'll just stare at that.
	By the way, how did you rebound so fast from that chemo?
	I mean, looking at those videos you like, you know, what, a couple months ago and now, I mean, is it the majority diet?
	No, there's a couple of things.
	Cyborg technology, I cloned myself, massive amounts of makeup and cocaine pretty much injected straight into the eyeball.
	But no, listen, I mean, I was healthy going in, right?
	I mean, and that helps a lot.
	Because a lot of people, you know, they hit chemo and they're like...
	I'm 65 and haven't exercised in years and sedentary and so on.
	So my doctor was saying, she said, you know, the fact that you work out, the fact that you eat well, the fact that you're not overweight or anything is really going to help with that.
	So it was a combination of, you know, I only did four rounds of chemo and the radiation didn't have a huge effect other than I have to wear this giant Jacqueline Onassis sun hat for the rest of the My life, because it is obviously somewhat carcinogenic to have massive amounts of radiation sprayed into your throat.
	But yeah, I mean, I think it was initial health, not a hugely grueling round, improvements in the medicines themselves, and obviously some good luck as well.
	So I think that's what happened.
	Yeah, how much do you think having a good mentality played into it?
	You know, I'm cautious about that kind of stuff.
	And the reason being, there are some people who just get sick and die.
	And I sure as heck would hate for them to think, well, I just didn't have a positive enough attitude.
	I think a positive enough attitude is sort of like icing on a cake.
	You know, the cake is going to taste pretty good without the icing, but the icing sure don't hurt.
	And so I think that a positive attitude helps.
	I certainly don't think that it's definitive.
	But I think it helps.
	And what I said to myself was that if I end up a better person because of this, then I'll take this bullet.
	And I did end up a better person, a calmer person, a more focused person, a happier person.
	So it was not something I wanted, but I think I did about the best with what I could.
	Well, Mike was around for it.
	What do you think, Mike?
	I can't imagine someone being diagnosed and having a more...
	Positive reaction to it that sounds even strange to say but I mean that from the first video you did when you announced it publicly to everybody with you know all the life's worries and little minor inconsequential things completely falling by the wayside and you know that I mean just being around you and having to you know deal with the situation as well as a friend I certainly felt a lot of inconsequential things fall away from me and that positive attitude I found I mean,
	I'm not the one that was diagnosed, but I personally found it to be incredibly inspiring and helpful.
	Yeah, and I mean, so the other day I was crabbing about, I thought I did some great videos lately that had low views, and I was sort of crabbing about it for a day or so, and then I just shook my head and went, wait a second, if I want more views, I just have to do better videos.
	The fact that I think they're great is not particularly relevant if I'm concerned about views.
	So, obviously, I just need more Justin Bieber.
	Yeah.
	No, I just need to do better videos, right?
	And keep experimenting until I get the view camp that I want.
	I don't want to be like the guy who had a hit in the 70s who's playing Weddings.
	Anyway, did you have another question or comment?
	Yeah, well, it's just, as far as the mentality, I don't know.
	I know in the past, it was kind of like a mystical thing.
	I was like, Do you know what The Secret is, that documentary?
	It's like an Oprah Law of Attraction thing?
	Yeah, it's interesting because you ask the universe for things and things will come.
	And if you write a book and charge money for it...
	The money will come.
	They're not asking the Universe for good things like money.
	They're asking the publisher, which is a bit more of a prosaic thing.
	Could you forward me my royalty check, O Universe, in the form of a publisher?
	But yeah, I actually did...
	I did watch the video a couple of years ago, and it actually prompted me to make one of the least appreciated jokes in Free Domain radio history, which was that they said they introduced some guy as a metaphysician, which is, it doesn't mean anything.
	And I said, well, that makes me an epistemideologist, which is just, I think it's a great joke, vastly, vastly underappreciated by people with good sense of humor.
	But anyway, yeah, I do.
	Do you have a question or comment about it?
	Well, I don't know.
	It's just I know in the past because I came from like a Christian upbringing.
	My dad was a Sunday school teacher and everything.
	And then through mostly conversations with friends and then watching some of your videos, I hit that whole like, oh shit, if I can't prove it, it's made up type of thing.
	Yeah.
	I know for a long time I was, I don't know, I had that, and it's an okay mindset, that whole law of attraction, like expect good things to come, like have a positive mentality, but I think they kind of like take advantage of people like, in an aspect of like, They make it seem as though your mind is this magic thing that can reach out into the universe and pull things towards it.
	I think really just by having a positive mentality, those opportunities are already around you.
	It's just by having that positive mentality, you'll actually be able to notice them.
	Well, let me tell you something.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Let me tell you something about The Secret, right?
	Okay, so if you go to, I think it's thesecret.tv and you click on Behind the Scenes, right?
	So, the woman, I don't know who wrote it.
	I guess her name is Rhonda Burns.
	And if you look at the picture of her, you'll see that she's a peroxided blonde with makeup and a spray tan.
	And she's pretty.
	I think she's quite pretty.
	I mean, it's traditional kind of doll, slightly melted Barbie doll pretty.
	But, you know, she's very pretty.
	Now, one of the things that very pretty people do, which is really, really annoying...
	Very pretty people will often attempt to sell you on the benefits of being pretty as if it's a personal virtue of theirs.
	So one of the things that happens is really pretty people say, you know, if you're just friendly to people and open to people and positive to people, then they will be open and friendly and positive back.
	It's like, yes, that's because they want to bang you.
	If they don't want to bang you, then you don't get that tertiary benefit of bangability.
	I mean, I would be sort of impressed if some guy who looked like the elephant man wrote a book on the power of positive thinking.
	You know, it's literally like women with giant boobs saying, you know, I find the world very friendly.
	I find that people really want to help you out.
	I find...
	I mean, my daughter is very pretty.
	I mean, you should see the positive reactions she gets everywhere she goes.
	And, you know, I do sort of have to remind her that, you know, pretty is nice.
	You know, nothing wrong with it.
	You know, obviously she gets it from her mom.
	And...
	It's nice that people react to you positively, but don't confuse...
	I'm not saying that she's not a great person, and she is, and she has lots of friends, and everyone thinks the world of her, and she's a great, great person, but...
	I would just...
	You know, like Anthony Robbins, right?
	Like chicklet teeth, nine foot tall, banana hands guy, right?
	He's like, it's the power of positive thinking.
	It's like, if you're seven foot two with a jawbone the size of Kansas, yes.
	I mean, he is a really impressive, imposing, handsome, cheekboned, jawbone looking guy.
	He's a really striking specimen.
	He literally is like, if...
	And if Ken did steroids and joined the Mafia, he would look sort of like Anthony Robbins.
	And Anthony Robbins writes all of this, you know, I stride into a room and I try and take command of the room and I find that it's a really positive thing.
	Just go out there and get what you want.
	It's like, you can take the command of the room because everyone looks up and says, oh my God, I think I just came in my pants a little bit.
	I mean, like, even 80-year-old women, because he's a really striking specimen.
	Sexually attractive, virile-looking, with all of the markers of, you know, 7-foot-plus bangability.
	And it's great that he writes these books on motivating, but I don't think we'd need any of those books on motivating if we all look like Anthony Robbins.
	So I just, you know, the secret thing is like, well, I find that if I'm really pretty and blonde and thin and sexy, oddly enough, the universe just provides me things.
	No, no, that's not the universe.
	That's testicles.
	That's testicles trying to provide you things.
	And so I just think that this sexual attractiveness being packaged as self-confidence is something that makes me just a little eye-rolly, if that makes any sense.
	I get it.
	They take advantage of the mystically-minded, those people who...
	It's sort of like we're coming in an age where people are coming off a religion saying, oh, these religions are bullshit, so they're moving towards that New Age stuff.
	They got those people because...
	That's a great thing about being New Age.
	You don't really have to define yourself as a religion.
	You can be as infinitely flexible and just...
	Basically prey off people who want to believe things that aren't necessarily true.
	I mean, and there's a few of them.
	Yeah, and look, remember, there's lots of people who are surrounded by a penumbra of people who want to agree with them because they have looks, or they have money, or they have power.
	Looks, money, and power, as Nietzsche said, will always distort the truth capacities of those.
	There are studies that show that physical beauty acts on the brain in the same way that cocaine does.
	You snort strong hair and a good hip to waist ratio.
	Like you might as well just wind it up, throw it out on a mirror and snort it straight up.
	It acts on the brain as a kind of drug.
	Pretty people are drug dealers.
	And of course it's exactly, I mean, you know, pretty means a good distribution of genes without matching receptors for dysfunctional ailments and so on.
	So of course we're drawn to that.
	Of course it is a high for us.
	And I've noticed that a lot of pretty people have the capacity to say the most extraordinary bullshit.
	And people don't call them on it because it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
	You know, you believe that your cat is the reincarnation of Chairman Meow?
	Okay, fine.
	Yeah, okay.
	Can I make a baby?
	Is that all right?
	If I just nod, is that all right?
	Hey, you dropped something.
	You dropped your copy of The Secret.
	And pretty people, I mean, they don't seem to be aware, or maybe they are aware and just don't like to talk about it, but they genuinely don't seem to be aware that they get an enormous amount of agreeability from those around them because of the bang factor.
	This is my big bang theory, by the way.
	If you can evoke a big desire to bang, then you can say the most extraordinary bullshit, and people would just nod and smile.
	How many times do guys attracted to very pretty women, or women they find very attractive, and if the woman starts spouting off some New Age mystical bullshit, how often do the guys say, wait, come on, don't be ridiculous, right?
	I dated a very...
	A very pretty woman, and she was talking about how she believed she had psychic powers, this, that, and the other, and I said, wow, that's, I think this was on her second date or something, and she said, and I said, wow, that's incredible.
	I mean, holy crap, like the amazing Randy's had a million bucks sitting in a bank account waiting for anyone who can show psychic powers.
	Let's go to Vegas.
	Let's go make a fortune.
	I'll split it with you.
	It doesn't work that way.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Can I make a baby?
	So a lot of people will just do this.
	Maybe pretty people don't even want to talk about how pretty they are.
	But it gets them a lot of agreeability and they somehow think that's them.
	You know, and it's literally like inheriting five million dollars and thinking that you're a fantastic business person and saying, well, you know, you just got to go for it in life.
	You know, you got to risk.
	You got to just go out there on a limb.
	It's like, yeah, fuck you.
	You got five million dollars.
	Don't talk to me about risk, right?
	But this, you know, it's the way people think.
	Well, also, the ability to manipulate, that's one thing that Because I mean, well, manipulation, I mean, we all manipulate, you know, when a baby cries out for its mother, it's trying to get what it wants, manipulate.
	I mean, you can do things for good or wrong, but like, I see a lot of these...
	I think, no, baby, baby, manipulative babies, although that is a fantastic name for an all-girl band.
	I don't think that you want to say that babies are being manipulative.
	They're communicating needs, right?
	But I don't think that they...
	Anyway, but I think people do manipulate, and my daughter certainly does.
	I mean, she's like the inner circle of the Communist Party in terms of intrigue and plotting.
	You know, half the time she's opening a conversation, she's taking a long hedge maze way to try and get what she wants by starting up somewhere.
	I've got to figure out, okay, what are you plotting?
	Where do you want to go?
	What do you want now?
	It's really strange.
	Perhaps I was only stretching the meaning of the term, but it seems like...
	Because along with the secret and the law of attraction and stuff, you have a lot of that self-help material where a lot of it is good.
	I've extracted good things, but it's just that factor of preying upon people who...
	I don't know.
	Growing up from it, I can understand because when you're told that there's a god and that there's something bad… And then you've come to find flaws in the official, like my big thing, I'd always ask my father, well, how, why would he, God, torture people who, you know, had no idea, never knew him, you know, and he could never answer me obviously.
	It's an unanswerable question.
	It's tough, you know, it's really tough, it's really tough to decipher the motives of fictional characters.
	Why would Hannibal Lecter want to eat faces?
	I mean, I don't know.
	It's necessary for the plot.
	It's necessary for the plot of the Bible for him to want to hurt people.
	It's tough to get money out of people.
	Without bribing or threatening them, right?
	I mean, when you don't have anything to offer them, right?
	So if you said, well, he's a nice god.
	You know, he likes it if you think of him once in a while, but, you know, no biggie.
	But liking him or not liking him isn't going to do you any good after you die.
	I mean, that religion is just not going to gather enough resources to go and conquer other religions, right?
	I mean, it's the most feral and aggressive religions, right?
	That tend to conquer.
	Because it's not a free market, it's a fraud market, right?
	And in the fraud market, deceptiveness, wiliness, threats, and appeals to vanity are the currency.
	And in a fraud market, it is the most aggressive and psychotic of the disciplines that, in the absence of philosophy, right?
	Philosophy exposes the fraud market and creates a free market.
	So yeah, of course he's going to be a psycho, because then you'll pay him off, right?
	I mean, it's like the Mafia doesn't come by your store and say, you know, it's a lovely store you got here.
	Be a shame if someone came in and turned this ornament like 30 degrees that way and then just walked out again.
	Or if they came in and sprinkled a tiny little bit of dust on that ornament and then backed out again, you know, be a shame.
	Now that won't happen to you if you give me about a thousand bucks.
	What do you say?
	People are like, yeah, fine.
	Turn the ornament, put a bit of dust down.
	It would be a shame if someone came in here and looked at something inside deeply once in a while.
	You have to burn the store down.
	That's how you get the thousand.
	Without the threat, you can't get the money.
	You can't make the threat individual.
	If the priest is some guy who comes and threatens you, Like, in the Stone Age, you hit him with a stick, right?
	And you throw him off a cliff.
	You know, there's an Inuit name for a sociopath.
	I can't remember what the name of it is.
	Probably something like Hussein Obama, Von Koldywich or something.
	And what they do is they just take...
	He's the guy who sleeps with all your women while you're out hunting boar or hunting whale or whatever and never helps and sits around and burps.
	And they just invite the guy out for a hunting party and they just leave him on...
	On a little iceberg or ice flow, push it out to sea and go home.
	That's it.
	That's how they deal with the guy.
	So if you say, I'm going to hurt your family if you don't give me a thousand fish a year, I mean, the guy's just like, he makes that calculation, right?
	And The Godfather 2.
	I think Don Vito Corleone, I think is his name, is the Marlon Brando character in the first one.
	When he's young, he steals something and some other mafia guy says, you know, give me my cut, which is 20% or whatever it is of what you stole.
	And he said, well, I don't really like this guy.
	I mean, if he was in the hospital and wanted money for an operation, I wouldn't try to help him.
	I don't really care about him, so I'm just going to kill him.
	I don't like him.
	I don't feel it's necessary.
	I can just go kill him.
	And that's the problem when you threaten people directly.
	It's that they can just hit you with a stick or push you into the ocean or leave you adrift on an iceberg and then, you know, that's it.
	Into the gene pool.
	So you need to invent something that threatens on your behalf that can't be hit with a stick, right?
	And the two things are God and the government, right?
	And so if you can say, look, you can hit me with a stick, but God will still send you to jail or still send, sorry, God will still send you to hell.
	And it's like, okay, well, then I won't hit you with a stick.
	I just pay you off because I can't hit God with a stick.
	If some jerk comes to my house and says, you know, give me money for my child's education or I'll shoot your dog, Well, he's risking something there, right?
	Whereas if, you know, I can't sick my dog on the government, right?
	So, I mean, even if you don't, they'll probably shoot the dog anyway if they come by.
	So, yeah, you have to invent all these things that you can't hit with a stick.
	And if you can get people to believe in a threat that emanates from an entity they can't hit with a stick, then they just have to give up and pay up, right?
	So, go ahead.
	A lot of times...
	Yeah, I'll read Christian bumper stickers now, and I'll be like, that person just threatened my eternal life.
	That's a big thing there.
	But I wanted to get back to the one thing you were saying.
	Definitely with these – with basically these New Age priests that are like just basically taking advantage of these people who are sort of coming out of religion and not having a real religion.
	So they'll sort of fall for anything that sounds – I think the fact that they're attractive is definitely a huge part of it.
	The other factor is to manipulate people.
	I heard you mention you were looking into neuro-linguistic programming before.
	I'm just curious to your extent of your understanding of what NLP is.
	Oh, it's not sophisticated at all.
	So I couldn't claim any real expertise.
	I'm pretty good at dismantling bullshit, but I don't have any...
	And I've watched a couple of episodes of Lie to Me, but that's really about it.
	So, no, I don't really know too much about it.
	Because it's...
	I don't know, I find that...
	It's kind of an interesting field because...
	Well, it's just actually the ability to communicate well.
	I by no means know really that much about it, actually.
	I've listened to some audiobooks, read a couple books, but I'm still very limited.
	I think it's the fact that it's kind of like a pseudoscience.
	It has all this terminology that was created, but some of it's fascinating stuff.
	It kind of relates into marketing, which this is going off on a side tangent.
	Thank you for introducing me to Elliot Hulse, by the way.
	Oh, you're welcome.
	It's an interesting guy, and I've noticed there's this whole movement of people which...
	But he's pretty too, right?
	Yeah, well, it helps, right?
	It helps, right?
	What is it?
	I saw some sitcom where they were saying, I think he's multiracial.
	They say, oh, multiracial baby, God's Photoshop.
	You know, they're always so pretty, right?
	Which makes sense, right?
	Because they're coming from a wider gene pool, so they can have more even features.
	But he's, I mean, I think he's a good-looking guy, very strikingly good-looking guy.
	But anyway, go ahead.
	And a strong communicator.
	I think that's the biggest thing.
	That's my point.
	That's my point.
	I mean, my point is, yeah, he's a good communicator, but to what degree are people receptive?
	Because he's pretty.
	I'm not saying he's not smart.
	I'm not saying he's not a good communicator.
	It sounds like you're getting down on yourself.
	You don't think you're pretty enough.
	You're an alright looking guy.
	Come on!
	No, first look, I really like my looks.
	I really like the way I look.
	I'm very happy with the way I look.
	I think I'm an attractive guy.
	And I have a good voice for this kind of stuff.
	And I have an accent that obviously, you know, it's a good thing I don't sound like some nasally southern guy.
	Bus driver from the Simpsons tweet a teenage kid, right?
	I mean, I have a good voice, and I have, of course, voice training and all of that, and so I have a good presentation, but I am fully aware that If I looked like George Costanza from Seinfeld, or The Crypt Keeper from Seinfeld, or Newman, right?
	I mean, if I looked like people like that, or if I had a voice that was just kind of nasally...
	What's that guy's name from Office Space?
	I can't remember.
	Anyway, but if I sounded like that, how would my show be received?
	Some of it I've worked hard for, absolutely.
	But there are a lot of pluses that, you know, if I looked like one of those skinny brown javelin pirates from Captain Phillips, then, you know, that would be a different...
	Kind of situation.
	And so, yeah, I just sort of wanted to point out that I'm not saying, look, oh, you know, well, all these pretty people and so on, but he is a very attractive person.
	I'm sure he's aware of that, and that's one of the foundations.
	You know, all I ask is that people use prettiness for the power of good, not for the power of selling people bullshit, right?
	I mean, and the self-help, sorry, just the last thing I wanted to mention, the self-help thing is really important, too.
	But I find a lot of self-help stuff Is paralyzing the victim.
	I respect a self-help book when it tells you who to say get lost to.
	A diet book is a diet book when it says don't eat this stuff, in my opinion.
	A nutrition book has to say at some point don't eat this stuff.
	And an exercise book has to say don't sit on the couch, do X, Y, and Z. Lift the couch with your toe.
	My concern with the self-help books is they're all about managing yourself and don't have this reaction and don't have that reaction and forgive and this and that.
	But it basically turns into a giant piece of apologetic putty.
	It turns you into this weird jellyfish that just has to conform and never challenge anyone around you.
	So I respect a self-help book that says, I can tell these, these, these, these, and these kinds of people to get lost.
	I've read through a lot of those books, and it's like the chicken soup for the soul books.
	Everything's nice, everything works out, and so on.
	But it doesn't say, listen, if somebody does this, this, this, and this to you, you get them the hell out of your life.
	Or at least think about it, right?
	And so I'm always concerned about these books that are just goopy around self-management.
	They seem to be around paralyzing the victims.
	And they don't tell you what to do with people who don't read self-help books, I guess.
	Yeah.
	So that's just my concern about the self-help movement.
	Yeah, because the forgiveness thing, I mean, how many times are you going to forgive someone and repeatedly slap you in the face?
	Because, yeah, I get that.
	So I will say the attractive thing, it's definitely, him being attractive is definitely huge.
	I mean, same with you, work ethic.
	I mean, look how many videos you turn out.
	Look at everything that you've done.
	Look at everything that he's constantly producing.
	I just think it's really fascinating to live in a time where people can, I mean, it's rough in the beginning, but start these consultative coaching type of expert jobs online.
	Where they can sit behind a computer and coach people.
	I think that's really cool.
	And sometimes I wonder, why don't you sell more stuff, Steph?
	Yeah, you know, people give me a lot of business advice or ask me a lot of questions like...
	I mean, you're asking a question, which is great.
	Like, I haven't been in business now, I guess, counting FDR. It's over 20 years that I've done entrepreneurial stuff.
	And, yeah, I mean, of course.
	Of course you can sell stuff.
	And we've tried.
	Years ago, we had a whole bunch of people on the message board saying, Oh, you've got FDR stuff.
	I'd love to wear FDR stuff.
	Get me some FDR stuff.
	And a guy I was working with at the time, we sort of sat down, we designed a whole bunch of stuff, we set up a whole shop, and I think in the first six weeks we had three orders.
	And it really pissed me off.
	It really pissed me off.
	Because people, like, many, many people were really, you know, get me this stuff, I really want it, I'll buy it, right?
	And we spent a lot of time on it, and people were like, Three.
	Three or four people bought things.
	And I got pissed off at the community, at the people who were like, you know, come on, if you care about philosophy and you think this is the best show, go wear a t-shirt.
	You know, if you had the cure for some disease and all you had to do was send people to a website, go wear that t-shirt.
	Or say, we've got a cure for the disease of irrationality, at least one of the cures.
	So, you know, all of that.
	So, yeah, we, and it's never really sold, I don't think we've really sold anything from that thing after that.
	Yeah.
	Another listener came up with some beautiful t-shirt designs.
	You know, sold some, but nothing in particular.
	And, I mean, so, yeah, we've definitely tried all of that stuff.
	And it's just, you know, in terms of the cost-benefit, it's absolutely not worth it.
	Yeah, I know if you use, like, those Cafe Press websites, you only make, like...
	Sometimes cents, less than a dollar off your designs just because they take so much in overhead.
	Well, no, but I wouldn't do it for the money.
	Like, I would do it to get the logo and the website out there for people to wear it.
	Right?
	I mean, I wouldn't do it to make a fortune.
	I would do, I mean, I wouldn't care if we made no money off it.
	If we were selling 500 a month and making no money, I'd be perfectly thrilled.
	Because then it would be like advertising for the show.
	But people are, you know, this show is not big enough.
	It's getting there.
	It's getting there.
	It's not big enough yet that people don't want to treat it like some guilty, slutty woman they keep in a low-rent motel somewhere downtown.
	Pay her off a little.
	It's like, oh, I feel this pull.
	I have to go and mate with this slut bitch goddess called Free Debate Radio.
	I hate myself for this.
	Ah, it's terrible.
	I'm so ashamed.
	But the shame is part of the turn-on.
	I'm going down.
	Help me.
	Don't let me go.
	I must.
	I must go down and get me some of that deep cleavage flesh of deep thinking brain.
	The folds, the folds of that man's brain.
	I want to lick them.
	I want to put a straw up his nose and suck out the wisdom.
	On a shaking bed where I have to keep feeding in quarters to make the podcast go...
	That's what I need.
	That's what daddy needs.
	And people say, where are you going?
	I'm just going to the store to get some milk.
	Why?
	Why do you keep asking that?
	I'm not going down there to the philosophy pit.
	I'm just not to the dungeon.
	Come on, Steph.
	Drop some hot brain wax on my nipples.
	Come on!
	Do it.
	No, I'm just going to get some...
	I mean, I can't wear that t-shirt.
	Children might see it.
	So, I mean, when the show gets a little bit bigger, then people will be like, yeah, I was into them before they were cool.
	I was into FDR when everyone was scared of it.
	So people, they just have to wait for that critical mass.
	Now, we're getting closer, for sure.
	I mean, we're doing like 100,000, you know, assuming that the podcasts are roughly the same as the videos, 100,000 downloads a day.
	Well, that's not bad, right?
	And so, yeah, I would say that when it gets bigger, there'll be more of a demand for merchandise.
	But we have to get over the hump of People feeling like they just have to keep it a guilty secret at the moment, which I mean, again, I can completely understand that.
	So, you know, patience will hit the tipping point and it'll work out.
	I wasn't expecting the perspective of the guilty pleasure thing.
	I think it's one of those things that, like, that's how I can tell if...
	A friend is someone I want to hang out with.
	If they're willing to at least sit down and watch a 15-minute video and not just roll their eyes and be bored.
	I say people shouldn't keep it as their dirty secret.
	Bring it out.
	It'll weed out the boring people in your life that don't want to at least take time to think.
	That's absolutely the worst.
	Well, people still don't know how efficient Free domain radio is at asshole detection.
	I mean, they don't know that yet.
	I mean, or they think that it's not necessary.
	Look, and it doesn't matter if it's free domain radio or anything else.
	Let me tell you something.
	If something is really important to you, for me it was objectivism when I was younger.
	Objectivism...
	Dickens, Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, right?
	They were the big things that I was into.
	And Pink Floyd, as a teenager at least.
	You share what you care about with the people around you.
	And it doesn't matter what it is.
	It can be this show, it can be anything else.
	You share what you care about with the people around you.
	And if you can't share what you care about with the people around you, Then you have no relationship with them.
	It's all just proximity and turkey and wine and sports and weather and bullshit.
	So people need to share.
	Now, people think, and I understand this too, they think, well, I really do care about this, but I don't want to impose it on other people.
	Yeah, you know, right, like statism doesn't impose, like religion doesn't impose.
	Family obligations from dysfunctional families don't impose.
	Imposition works.
	That's why jerks and assholes use it.
	They impose all the time.
	Hey!
	Don't feel like getting government health insurance?
	Sorry!
	Too bad.
	It's that or jail.
	Don't feel like paying for government school?
	Sorry!
	Too bad, it's that or jail.
	Oh, you don't want to support the war?
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	Too bad, it's that or jail.
	The successful belief systems in the world impose like crazy.
	Oh, didn't listen to mama disagreeing with data?
	Too bad, spanked, time out, go to bed, take away your cell phone, all that shit.
	The successful and screwed up stuff in the world, which is pretty much synonymous these days, or I guess it always has been, impose like crazy.
	And people say, well, I don't want to impose.
	You share what you're passionate about with other people.
	You share what you're passionate about with other people.
	That is a very quick five-minute test.
	See if people will pay attention to something just because you're interested in it.
	See if people will be interested in something just because you're interested in it.
	And that is very efficient.
	But people don't want to be that efficient.
	They want to hedge and manipulate and withdraw and manage all of this relationship stuff.
	Because they think they'll live forever, and they think that they'll have forever to correct mistakes, and they think they're not developing bad habits, and because they think they'll never find anyone better.
	And they've been trained by deficient people around them to not think that they'll find anyone better.
	Well, I think you will.
	Listen, I've got to move on to the next caller, if you don't mind.
	Hey, no problem, Steph.
	It was cool talking to you, man.
	I'll talk to you again.
	Thank you.
	All right, Krista.
	You're up next.
	Hello?
	Hello.
	Can I just start?
	Okay.
	No, you know, check with me a couple of times if you can hear me.
	Tell me a couple of irrelevant stories and then say that you've got your question there somewhere.
	Well, first of all, I just want to say thank you for the recommendation for the parent fitness training because it has been the most amazing thing my husband and I have read together.
	It's helped with our kids.
	It's helped with our interactions with ourselves.
	And ultimately, it's giving me the confidence to talk to my parents about...
	This is what I called.
	I'm scared to death to talk to my parents about my feelings about the church I was raised in.
	Another Mormon raised in this crazy place we call Utah.
	So that's what I want to talk about.
	That's why I'm so scared to talk to my parents.
	I've been analyzing it for a couple of months and figured out that there's two main reasons why I'm scared.
	The first one is that I'm afraid that I'm going to misrepresent my feelings and They're going to blame the wrong source.
	They're going to blame either my husband for leaving first.
	They're going to blame my mom.
	They're going to blame herself.
	Wait, wait.
	Sorry.
	You said for leaving first.
	What do you mean?
	For being the first one to decide that he didn't believe in the church anymore.
	And is your husband also from a Mormon background?
	Well, yeah.
	He wasn't born into it.
	He was converted when he was a teenager.
	From what?
	From Presbyterianism, I guess.
	He was super religious when he was younger.
	Right, so he likes differently, he wanted differently shaped bullshit, right?
	Yeah.
	It's like, the bullshit in this shape is like weird, but if you shape it over into this stuff, you know, like if it's a different ice sculpture, it's not ice, right?
	So, okay, so he went from Presbyterianism to Mormonism, and why did he convert?
	We've actually talked about this a lot.
	Part of it is that he was, the missionaries had shown, no, his mom sought out the missionaries because she was, oh man, long story, but she was an alcoholic synonymous and she knew that Mormons didn't drink alcohol and so she wanted to learn more about it and they ended up converting.
	It was during like a really difficult time in his life so it was like, it was very, what's the word?
	Intriguing for him at the time that he converted.
	That makes sense.
	If you could just tell me a little bit more.
	I'm not quite sure I follow.
	Well, he's called in before.
	I mean, he was taken to the doctor a lot, put on medications.
	He was just, you know, in the school system and he was just in a vulnerable place in his life.
	And when the missionaries came along, it was just like something to cling on to.
	Okay.
	And so, yeah, does that make sense?
	Yeah, kind of.
	So he was in the church when we got married, and he was really strong in the church when we got married, and so he was ultimately the first person to kind of start leaving.
	So I don't want him to be to blame of me leaving, because it's not him.
	I... I have my own brain.
	I have my own thoughts.
	I have my own critical thinking skills.
	So I don't want him to be blamed.
	I don't want my mom to blame herself for not raising me well enough or for, you know, failing as a mother.
	And I don't want her to blame me.
	Sorry, hang on.
	Why?
	Because you went to your husband and then to your mother as if there was no particular distinction between the two?
	Like they're both just people, right?
	Well, yeah, no, I'm just trying to explain that I don't want the wrong place to be blamed for me leaving, that's all.
	Does that make sense?
	Okay, no, but I need to just unpack some of the language, and I'm sorry to interrupt what you were saying, but I need to unpack some of the language.
	Okay, what does the word blame mean to you?
	Like, just giving fault to why I'm not in the church, you know, it's like, Notice it because it's an important word, right?
	Because it's like the word bashing, you know, like, oh, I'm just bashing Christians or bashing.
	It doesn't really mean anything.
	It's like, let's not play the blame game generally means do not assign responsibility, right?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	So what you mean, what you want to say is that nobody is responsible for you leaving the church.
	Except for the fact that it doesn't hold up.
	That it's, you know, it's church.
	It just doesn't make logical sense.
	It's, you know...
	So I don't want her to blame something like...
	Hang on a sec, sorry.
	But what is your mother responsible for?
	I mean, I assume that when she was...
	Sorry to interrupt.
	I just asked you a question.
	I'm just interrupting.
	I apologize for that.
	But let me just sort of clarify.
	So when you were a kid, did she hold you responsible for your actions?
	Right.
	Did she?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So your mom is perfectly comfortable with holding people responsible for their actions when they're like 6 or 8 or 10 or 15, right?
	Right.
	So your mother is responsible for her actions, right?
	Because otherwise we'd have a standard that says a six-year-old should be held responsible, but a 30-year-old or a 40-year-old should not, right?
	Which wouldn't make any sense.
	Right.
	So you can say the word blame, but the problem with the word blame is it has a connotation of irrational projection, if that makes any sense.
	Like if I get yelled at at work and then I come home and yell at my daughter...
	Of course, if I get yelled at at work, it's usually just by myself, so that's even more deranged, right?
	But then I'm blaming my daughter for something that's, you know...
	My fault.
	Or if I leave my luggage in the cab on the way to the airport and then I get angry at the cab driver for, quote, driving away too fast when he really didn't, then I'm blaming someone.
	And that's got that irrational or negative connotation to it, right?
	Like it's wrong to blame, right?
	But to assign responsibility is not wrong because that's rational, right?
	People are responsible for their actions.
	On two levels.
	One, I mean it's just existentially true.
	Only you own yourself and only your mother owns herself and she's responsible.
	So at the first level it's just existentially true.
	But at the second level, people who assign responsibility to children cannot deny their own responsibility as adults, right?
	Because they've already accepted the notion of responsibility and applied it to children.
	So they can't then reject it for themselves, right?
	Right.
	So, your mother is responsible for you leaving the church to some degree because she put you in the church to begin with.
	Right.
	Right, like if I put you in prison and you break out, I'm kind of responsible for you breaking out because I put you in the prison, right?
	Right, right.
	But anyway, go on.
	Well, yeah, but it's that irrational belief.
	You know, it's hard to explain.
	Mormons, they have a lot of irrational beliefs, and one of them is...
	Whenever somebody leaves, it's always, oh, they were drinking, or, oh, they looked at pornography, and, oh, they just listened to other people instead of...
	It's like, no, I'm taking responsibility for myself.
	I had my own thoughts, my own feelings.
	Don't blame something that's not true.
	I want it to be, you know, it's me and my own brain, and I can't figure out how to represent the truth without...
	We're causing her to blame the wrong thing, you know?
	Well, sorry, to be precise, what you described there are not beliefs, they are punishments.
	In other words, if somebody leaves, we are now going to slander them.
	Drinking pornography, promiscuity, we are now going to slander them because they have left our group, right?
	Right.
	That's not a belief.
	That is a punishment.
	That is a threat.
	That if people leave, we are going to slander and drag their name through the mud and humiliate their family.
	I mean, this is basic closed-off group behavior, right?
	Right.
	If somebody stops listening to Free Domain Radio, or if somebody cancels their subscription to Free Domain Radio, I don't go online and And write that they have rejected virtue, that they have embraced evil, and that they probably are collecting child pornography.
	Right.
	I mean, can you imagine me doing that with somebody who can't...
	Oh, actually, that...
	Okay, Mike, you make a note.
	Okay, but I mean, can you imagine if I did that, how insane that would be and how absolutely immoral that would be?
	People can stop listening to this show.
	They can stop donating.
	They can do whatever they want, and I wouldn't want it any other way.
	I mean, if nobody ever canceled their donations, it would be because I wasn't doing something right.
	Right.
	In other words, people didn't feel free to leave or people weren't offended by anything.
	I'm not doing something right.
	I'm doing something wrong.
	So it's not a belief.
	It's a punishment.
	And the reason that I'm pointing this out is obviously you want that to not happen.
	That's the whole point of a punishment.
	You want it to not happen.
	Now, if it is a belief, then you can reason people out of it.
	But if it's a punishment, you can't.
	Okay, that makes sense.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	It's like saying to your dad who's about to spank you, but daddy, I really don't like being spanked.
	He's like, yeah, that's the point.
	You can't reason people out of a punishment because the whole point is that it's irrational and aggressive.
	That's the whole reason.
	It's like saying, but if you find me guilty, oh jury, I will go to jail.
	And they're like, yes, that's the point.
	That's how it works, right?
	Right, so there's really nothing I can do.
	Well, I want you to not try and control things that you cannot control.
	And as far as I understand it, the slander that is applied to people who reject irrational beliefs is one of the ways you know those beliefs are irrational.
	Right?
	Like if somebody decides to not take a particular medication...
	You know, we don't say that they're seriously immoral and they must have turned towards the dark side and then have now, you know, in deep training to become a Sith Lord or something like that.
	We may say it's irrational and it's silly and bad idea, whatever, but it's not a moral thing.
	Because you're free to reject the medicine that you don't like, and you're free to not read a book, and you're free to not listen to a podcast and so on, and it is not a mark of evil or severe dysfunction that you don't.
	And the reason for that is that medicine is confident in its efficacy.
	I'm confident in the efficacy of philosophy, though not always myself, and so there's no punishment for rejecting something which is rational.
	But if something is irrational, Then you will be punished for rejecting it.
	Why?
	Because they cannot appeal to your self-interest.
	And anyone who can't appeal to your self-interest has to appeal to your fear if they want to keep you in their orbit.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yes, definitely.
	Yes, they definitely do that with the fear.
	Okay, so tell me a little bit about what you think might happen if you say, listen, I'm not so much down with this magic underpants thing.
	Well, and that's the other thing that the second reason that I realized is that, and it's so stupid, not stupid, it's irrational on my part, is that I realized if I tell them that I won't be their favorite anymore or their golden child, and I don't understand why I feel that way.
	It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever realized.
	I'm sorry, why wouldn't you feel that way?
	What do you mean?
	Not wanting to lose my spot as their favorite?
	Not that I am their favorite.
	No, but why would you...
	And again, I'm not trying to say you're wrong.
	I'm genuinely...
	I must be missing something.
	If you go to your Mormon parents and say that you're no longer a Mormon, won't you lose your status with them?
	Right, but...
	Is it that you know you're going to lose status and you don't want that to happen?
	Yeah, I think that's more...
	It's like, you know, my mom has always been like, oh, you're the one that I never had to worry about because you always did the right thing and now I'm not doing the right thing and I'm afraid that she's going to be like, oh, my one that is doing the right thing is now not, you know, I don't know.
	It's like we...
	It was always, not on a pedestal, but in a way, on a pedestal, and I don't want to lose that spot.
	And I don't know why I care so much.
	And do you know why you're on a pedestal?
	What do you mean?
	Do you know why you're on a pedestal?
	Do you know why you're the golden child?
	Because I never did anything that pissed them off, I guess.
	No.
	I never got grounded.
	No.
	No, no, no.
	I'm so sorry.
	I'm so annoying.
	I really, I hear it in myself.
	I don't think so.
	I don't think so.
	Okay, what do you think?
	Well, it's because you're the smartest.
	And because you're the one most likely to think for herself, right?
	Yeah, that's sadly very true.
	And yeah, I'm the youngest.
	And so you have to have your vanity appealed to because you're the one who's most likely to blow the scheme, right?
	To pull the matrix apart in the family, right?
	So they have to say, oh, you're the goal.
	They have to praise and flatter you, right?
	Why do you praise and flatter a king?
	You praise and flatter a king because he has the power to harm you.
	And he's the one most likely to do so, right?
	Right.
	That's so true.
	I can see that.
	And so you have the power to harm your family.
	I mean, harm the delusions, right?
	I know what you mean.
	Yeah, and you are the most likely to do so because you're the smartest.
	And so you will be praised in the same way a king is praised and flattered.
	And I know this, and I hope I'm not projecting, but I was the golden boy in my family, and that's because I was the most independent thinker and I think probably the smartest and all that kind of stuff.
	And I was given all of that praise so that I would not harm the family, which I had the greatest capacity to do, I suppose.
	And I guess did.
	That definitely makes sense.
	The funny thing is that I'm the youngest, so none of my siblings take me seriously.
	But I'm like, how can you not think like this?
	Yeah, anyway.
	Well, it's not how can you not think like this.
	It's how can you not think.
	There's no like this for thinking, right?
	It's like, how can you do science in this manner?
	It's like, no, no, you're either doing science or you're not.
	There's no in this manner, so to speak.
	Maybe that's why they all dismiss me, because they know that part of it.
	No, I don't know.
	I'm just saying...
	Well, no, no, let's ask that question, which is, why did they dismiss you?
	Yeah, because, well, I mean, growing up they dismissed me because I was the annoying little sister, but now they still do it, and it's because I'm making them think outside of what makes them comfortable.
	Can I try another explanation?
	Sure.
	Sure.
	I would argue that they dismiss you because they really need for you to dismiss yourself.
	Yeah, definitely.
	They need you to not take yourself seriously.
	Yes, I can see that.
	Right.
	Definitely.
	Every time I post something anti-spanking, my brother Well, why would you want to do that?
	It's like, oh, well, why would you think that that's...
	Why would you want to be peaceful?
	Why wouldn't you...
	Yes, exactly.
	It's like, why would you want to hit your children if there's such a better way?
	It's amazing to watch.
	It's mostly just my older brother that does that part.
	But he's telling you something very important, right?
	He's telling you something very important, which is...
	He genuinely cannot understand why you would not want to hit someone, right?
	Right.
	Well, he thinks because God hit his children, which makes it even funnier because of how ridiculous it is.
	Sorry, what's even funnier?
	The fact that he said, God used to punish his children.
	Like, yeah, and you still think that that's okay.
	It's just ironic.
	Does he have children?
	Yes.
	And he's not that...
	I never really thought he was an abusive child or parent, but apparently he is.
	He always seemed to not be that way, but I guess behind closed doors is a different story.
	Now, you know you're laughing, right?
	Oh, yes.
	And you talked about this in my husband's call, too.
	And you know, it's funny, because I bet you everyone who calls in is like, I can't believe that person's laughing about something so horrible.
	I mean, I tell you, when I call into that guy, there's just no way I'm going to laugh about terrible things, right?
	But you're talking about your brother's dedication to harming his children, right?
	Right.
	Who can't leave and who did not choose him.
	And look, I'm not at all trying to imply that you don't have empathy for them.
	Of course you do.
	It's just that your brother stepped into the conversation and his alter ego was trying to diminish the importance of what you were saying, right?
	Absolutely.
	It's funny, when I'm talking to people about important stuff, when you talk to people about unimportant stuff, you just get the same person.
	But as soon as you start talking to people about important stuff, it's like this massive revolving door rotation of family photos.
	People step in and out of the conversation all the time.
	Your mother started using the word blame.
	I guarantee you that's your mother's word.
	And then your brother started laughing about the silliness of all of this spanking stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	It's interesting, and this is part of self-knowledge, is knowing when am I me and when am I somebody else.
	You know, we are a scattershot of ghostly histories, you know, constantly.
	It's like whack-a-mole with all the people in our life.
	When we cross someone's interest within us, they pop up to defend, and it's got nothing to do with us.
	In fact, it's usually at our expense, right?
	Right, and my brother's probably laughing at how stupid I am or something, you know what I mean?
	And if you were to interrupt him and say, do you want to try that?
	I mean, if you want to play him, I'll play, like, take it seriously kind of thing.
	Because then you can get a sense of how he would respond to that.
	We don't have to.
	I'm just saying that if you were to really talk with great seriousness with him about it, the laughter doesn't work.
	The laughter is a way of saying, don't you dare make this serious.
	Because our relationship cannot handle this being serious.
	Right.
	Right, definitely.
	And it would lead to lots of places, right?
	Lots of different places it would lead to.
	You know, God punishes his children, so in this analogy, oh brother of mine, you are God, is that correct?
	And you think that's healthy?
	My husband always says God is dad.
	He's the dad, so it only makes sense.
	He has to take the place of God in his family.
	Well, he's a particular kind of dad, right?
	Right.
	That's what I mean.
	Hopefully not that guy.
	I didn't explain that very well.
	God is your idea.
	The way you view God is the way...
	You view your dad.
	So, like, if you have a loving, compassionate dad...
	Oh, right.
	So, I'm an atheist because I grew up...
	I'm an atheist because I grew up without a dad.
	That's interesting.
	Yeah, that's interesting.
	No, that's a very interesting plot.
	Yeah, anyway.
	So, he thinks that he has to act like God does because that's...
	Yeah, anyway.
	Because he's the dad or he's the male authority figure in the house or...
	Well, no, I would argue that the church gives him the rationale...
	To hit his children so that he doesn't have to confront his own irrationality and in return for that rationale to hit his children, he will deliver traumatized children to the church for lifelong exploitation.
	That's the deal.
	Absolutely.
	Right.
	It's kind of ironic because my parents were...
	I'm not sure how they parented my siblings.
	They're all five plus years older than me.
	I'm the youngest.
	They're all close together and I'm the youngest by five years.
	And they weren't abusive to me.
	They let me be very independent.
	So I just want to be like, if you didn't want me to be independent, you shouldn't.
	Why?
	Why are you tearing me apart like this, woman?
	Oh my goodness.
	I'm sorry, did they raise you in the Mormon faith?
	Well, no, they weren't abusive physically.
	I would say they were abusive by coercion through guilt.
	Sorry, you said that they let you develop your own thoughts and independence?
	Yeah, what I mean by, not when it comes to the church, obviously, but when it comes to...
	You are going to play this back in a year and your head is going to explode.
	Yeah, probably.
	That you would come to me and say, my parents weren't abusive.
	I mean, they did tell me, you know, hellfire, burning, damnation, Jesus died for my sins, and, you know, I've got to wear these glowing pants.
	But they weren't abusive.
	And they also let me develop independently, but they did tell me I would torture and burn if I didn't accept these irrational beliefs.
	Right, so...
	But yeah, non-abusive, I just mean they didn't spank me.
	They didn't physically hurt me is the only thing that I mean.
	But yeah, they allowed me more independence than my siblings, but I wouldn't say they allowed me absolute independence because they had, you know, all of their ideals and thoughts are deeply ingrained in my brain, but more so than other people that I know, you know, they were allowing me to You know, like I chose my own clothes when I was in second grade, and I still remember that because everybody was like, oh, you wore shirts today, it's freezing cold outside.
	And I was like, no, my parents let me dress myself.
	So it's that kind of independence, not religious independence, if that makes sense.
	Were you physically, I mean, were you threatened with hell as a child?
	The Mormon church doesn't really believe in hell.
	It's more like, I would say, they more manipulate through rewards and not punishments.
	So it's, oh, if you don't do this, you're not going to make it to the celestial kingdoms, what they call it.
	So it's not so much that they're like, if you don't do this, you're going to go to hell.
	It's more like, if you don't do this, you're not going to go to the celestial kingdom.
	So it's kind of the opposite way of manipulating, if that makes sense.
	Ah, okay.
	Mormons believe in hell.
	I'm just looking.
	Mormons believe in hell, but our conception of hell is different than the one that generally springs to mind.
	A state of pain, guilt, and anguish where the spirits of the wicked will be after they die, but before the final judgment.
	Everlasting state of hell reserved for a few truly wicked.
	We commonly refer to this one as outer darkness.
	Yeah, that's like a...
	It's like harder to get to.
	You have to be like perfect and then deny God to get to that is what they say.
	There is like a spiritual prison.
	Oh, that's not like murderous?
	That's just for people who deny God?
	No, that's not for...
	Yeah, it's like...
	Yeah, exactly.
	Well, yeah, because you've got to have your moral priorities, you know, clear.
	Because, you know, people who say kill children, they will be, you know, saved by people who deny God.
	I mean, that's some serious shit.
	I mean, it's true.
	No children were harmed with the formulation of this belief.
	So is that what you would go to if the Mormon belief system were true?
	That you were raised Mormon, now you were denying God.
	Would this be the outer duct?
	No, they always teach that it's like people that have been exalted and then do that.
	It's not like people that have been in the church and then leave.
	It's more like you have to get really, really high up, be like a prophet, and then leave in order to...
	Go to outer darkness or whatever.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	And do you think that your mother is open to any arguments from an atheist or skeptical perspective?
	No.
	I don't think...
	I think she dismisses that a little too much.
	I think she would just...
	Try to find justifications around it.
	It would be pointless to try to argue against the church.
	It would be more like I would be arguing to care more about our relationship than what's going to happen after death or whatever.
	And I don't think...
	I don't feel like she's going to disown me or that she's going to stop loving me.
	I just feel like she's going to start pushing it on me more than she would Before, when she thought I was going to church every week, I feel like telling her that I'm not a member or that I don't want to go anymore, that she would suddenly try to bring it into every conversation and feel like she had to do her part to bring me back, to be a missionary and bring me back.
	And I just want a normal relationship with her.
	I don't want this weird...
	Because my brother left, you know, 13 years ago, and she's still not over it.
	She still can't come to terms with the fact that he doesn't go to church.
	She still freaks out when she goes to his house and finds him drinking, and it's like the biggest devastation for her.
	Like, she's been trying so hard for so long to get him to come back to the church, and I just want to be like, Mom, focus on your relationship.
	Focus on accepting him.
	Don't focus on trying to bring him back to the church.
	Look, I mean, listen, respect to your mom.
	I mean, I know that sounds weird, but seriously, like, respect to your mom.
	I mean, so this is LDS Apostle George Q. Cannon.
	Wow, great name for somebody who leaves holes in the minds of children.
	Okay, so he writes, those who are unfaithful, that would be your brother, right?
	Right.
	Those who will listen to Satan.
	I guess you, me, this conversation?
	I don't know.
	Who will lend a willing ear to his blandishments and to his allurements.
	When they go from this state of existence, they go into a condition where they are subject to his power.
	So your brother is going to go to this place.
	They will dwell in darkness.
	According to their sins, their punishment will be.
	Some will be consigned to outer darkness, whether as weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, and they will remain in that condition until they will be visited by some certain servant of God to unlock the prison doors to them and to preach to them again the gospel of salvation through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
	They will remain in that condition according to the enormity of their offenses until punishment will be meted out to them sufficiently to bring them to a condition that they will receive the gospel of salvation.
	Okay.
	Yeah, that sounds like...
	I'm sorry, go ahead.
	No, no, go ahead.
	I was just going to say, when you...
	There's like a temporary holding place when you die, and one of it's spiritual paradise, one of it's spiritual prison where you learn, and then once you have accepted the teachings or whatever, then you go to...
	You're punished until...
	Basically, but it's not...
	That's like a temporary holding place, I guess.
	It's not like the end of the world.
	I mean, not the end of the world, obviously.
	It's after the death, but...
	No, but it's temporary until you submit, right?
	Right.
	Yes, that's what they believe.
	Although I guess it would be a lot easier to believe in God once you are being visited by celestial beings in an eternal prison.
	No, seriously.
	I mean, I'd be like, damn, I'm out of here.
	I was wrong.
	I mean, there is a God because I just saw one of his angels.
	I asked the angel some questions that mortal beings would not know and the angel answered those questions.
	I'm like, damn.
	Sorry, I mean, good cloaking device, dude.
	I mean, couldn't see you anywhere and never spoke to me.
	So, great game of hide-and-go-seek.
	Can I come out now?
	Right?
	It's like, I found you!
	Right?
	You were in the shower the whole time.
	Right?
	So, you know, I mean, I don't think that there's any particular problem.
	I mean, the problem is believing in this crap while you're alive and there's no evidence.
	If you die and they're like, whoa, there is Pearly Gates, there is St.
	Peter, there is whatever this, you know, you get visited by cherubs or seraphim or something.
	And you're like, well, damn, I accept Jesus Christ.
	I mean, he's right there.
	You know, I can play patty cake with him.
	I mean, you know, I try not to resist that, which is evident to my whatever senses you'll have then.
	But the reason I said props to your mom is that she really believes this.
	This is where your brother is going.
	Now, if my daughter said that she wanted to...
	I mean, I can't even think what the...
	If she wanted to join a criminal gang, I wouldn't let that go.
	If she got addicted to some horrible drug...
	I wouldn't be like, well, I'm not going to focus on that.
	I'm just going to focus on my positive relationship with her, right?
	Because she would be courting disaster.
	And this is disaster that is unachievable in a mere mortal framework, right?
	This is a disaster that can go on for a long time, right?
	Right.
	So she really believes this stuff.
	And because she believes in it, It's not like you guys just like different sitcoms, right?
	I mean, this is exceedingly serious to her.
	And she genuinely, I assume, that she genuinely believes that this is where you all are heading.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	I mean, Joseph Smith says that A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner, hence the saying they shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.
	The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone.
	And when you're a parent, you are worried about your children hurting themselves or being hurt, right?
	You're paranoid every time you're in a parking lot.
	You're worried every time they run on something slippery.
	You're concerned every time they jump from a higher step.
	You don't want your children to get hurt.
	Their pain is your pain as a parent, right?
	And they are, particularly when they're young, these extraordinary black hole death magnets that you have to be very careful with.
	And so if she genuinely believes that you and your brother are courting the worst possible harm that can come to you, I think asking her to let it go It's not particularly understanding her perspective.
	I'm sorry to annoy you by telling you how to understand your mom's perspective.
	No, yeah.
	It's useful when talking to her to definitely acknowledge that part and say, you know, I know that you believe this is true and you want the best for me.
	You know, it's kind of like the act of listening, you know, part of the Well, I mean, if this maintains itself in her belief system, it's going to be very hard to have a relationship, right?
	Well, I think we can have a relationship.
	It's just going to be very hard for her to let go and just let me be who I am.
	It's going to be hard for her to accept that.
	But I don't feel like she will...
	I know she won't disown me.
	I mean, she hasn't disowned my brother or anything.
	Yeah.
	She wouldn't disown you, right?
	No, because she wants to save you from this fate, right?
	Right.
	I mean, it would be like my daughter walking towards the edge of a cliff, right?
	And I can't, like, let's say I'm, I don't know, trapped somewhere.
	My daughter's walking towards the edge of the cliff, and I say, stop walking towards the edge of the cliff, and she keeps walking towards the edge of the cliff, and And she says, Daddy, I just want to chat with you.
	I don't want to chat with you about the cliff and falling.
	I just want to chat with you about other stuff.
	And she continues to walk towards the edge of the cliff, right?
	Right.
	I mean, you understand that I couldn't do that.
	I couldn't not talk about the cliff edge she was walking towards because my whole being would be screaming out in horror.
	Right.
	So...
	I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how can I? Should I just keep smiling and nodding forever?
	No, no.
	I mean, I don't know what you should do.
	Honestly, I don't.
	I don't know what you should do.
	I know what my choices have been, but those are my choices.
	So I don't know what you should do, but I do want to give you what I would consider an accurate map of the situation.
	Okay.
	How intelligent is your mother?
	I would say she's pretty intelligent, actually.
	She's a pretty accepting person.
	She's pretty willing to...
	In the later years, I mean, not later years, it's not like she's settled, but I've noticed her coming around to new ideas more easily than I expected, I guess.
	And I think, yeah.
	Go ahead.
	No, yeah, that's all.
	Just that I do think she is...
	We're a lot alike, so I think I take after her the most.
	And that's why I focus on her, not my dad, because I feel like my dad's just beyond...
	He just comes from a very judgmental family.
	And my mom, though, I feel like I can talk to more and have more of a relationship with her because she is more of that.
	She does think more instead of just...
	Going along with everything that she knows.
	She still does, but she still believes in the church.
	And why does she believe in the church?
	Well, she was raised in it.
	No, no, no, I understand that.
	So were you, right?
	I mean, so was I. And I don't mean this facetiously or intellectually, but what are her motivations that are emotional for believing in the church?
	Yeah, she definitely would...
	Have a difficult life if she ever tried to say she didn't believe in it.
	I mean, it is her life, so she has that keeping her in.
	No, that's a tautology, right?
	She believes in it, and then you're saying, well, it's her life.
	Well, it's her life because she believes in it, right?
	Yeah, I guess what I mean is if she even had a thought of it not being true, it would be too difficult for her to think about.
	I mean, when I first...
	Left or whatever, I don't know what I would call it, became disassociated.
	It was difficult to think of all the people that I would have to be honest with and I thought about divorcing my husband for a while because it was that painful to think about trying to have a relationship with all these people in my life that weren't him.
	And there were so many more people than there was just one hymn.
	But then I realized that that was ridiculous.
	So I think it would be more painful for her to even think outside of the church than it is to stay in it.
	So she just doesn't even go there.
	She doesn't even...
	In fact, she thinks that thinking too much is a bad thing.
	I think that's where my dad's, but yeah.
	Okay, so would she end up getting divorced if she became an atheist?
	I'm not sure.
	I don't know.
	They've been together for so long, I can't imagine they would just get divorced, but I'm sure she'd be afraid of that.
	And what else?
	Yeah, I mean, all of her brothers and sisters, all of just, I mean, she's just...
	Her whole life revolves around...
	I just don't think she could ever...
	I don't think she could survive without it now because it's all of her friends, all of everything she associates with is in the church.
	Right.
	With the exception of you and your brother, who she still associates with but who the relationship is strained, right?
	Right.
	So her belief is social.
	Well, I don't know if it's just based on that alone.
	No, I didn't say just.
	I mean, but there is the major reason why she believes.
	Because, you know, if you're going to have conversations with her about your unbelief, I think it's important to know why she believes.
	I could certainly ask her that.
	I think that would be a good question to ask her.
	Hear what she has to say about it.
	Well...
	Yes, but that's assuming you're going to get the truth.
	And by that, I don't mean that your mother would lie, but rather that she just may not know the truth or may not have processed it or may, right?
	Right.
	Because, I mean, it is important to know, if you have a difference of opinion with someone, I think it's important to know why they believe what they believe.
	Right?
	Because lots of people try and talk people out of God and Just using pure reason.
	And there's nothing wrong with that.
	I've sort of done that myself.
	But if you have a relationship with someone that's deep, right, and your relationship with your mom is deep, I think it's important to know why she believes what she believes.
	Because if she's like, and I don't mean to diminish her perspective, but if it's something like this, look, it is extremely awkward for me if you're not religious anymore.
	It is awkward for me socially and It is hugely problematic.
	I've got lots of explaining to do.
	I'm going to be criticized in the church.
	I'm going to have to cover up.
	It is incredibly inconvenient to me.
	Yeah, I think that is a part of it, for sure.
	Right.
	And also, unconsciously, it would be, I am going to see an ugly side to my community if you leave that I don't want to see.
	Mm-hmm.
	The embarrassment.
	Yeah.
	Of having to, yeah.
	Having to explain why we haven't seen your daughter.
	They're always asking because they're always afraid of people breaking free, right?
	Where's your daughter?
	I haven't seen her around for a while.
	How's she doing?
	Yeah, I mean, she bases so much of her self-worth on the idea of, I have a family that is going to live forever and be together forever, and the fact that my brother's not in it, it's like, I don't have that, and Look at all these people.
	They did everything.
	I did everything right and it still didn't happen.
	She bases her self-worth too much on what other people choose and not on anything real that she should base her self-worth on.
	Right.
	So if your skepticism is emotionally difficult for her, Then that is the reality of why this would occur, right?
	Now, I'm sure that she does believe, right?
	And so she...
	I don't know how people can believe this stuff fundamentally.
	Like, so I'm not very good at helping you understand that.
	Right.
	Like, I just...
	I don't know how people can take these fairy tales seriously and genuinely believe that people are going to...
	Like, going to hell and that Jesus is watching them and he really cares whether they masturbate.
	Like, I just...
	I can't...
	I can't really figure out how people vomit up these linguistic ghosts and then live in fear of the imaginary their whole lives.
	Like I can't understand how you populate the universe with fantasy and kneel before dust in the air and think that it's consciousness.
	I don't know how people can do that.
	I fundamentally can't.
	I mean, I remember doing that when I was sort of three or four years old.
	Like as I sort of mentioned before, one of my earliest memories is playing in a friend of mine's cousin's attic.
	And singing a Cliff Richard song, Power to All Our Friends, or whatever.
	And it was a great song, and I remember thinking, well, God can't like this, because there's nothing about God in it.
	And it's very earthly.
	I didn't know the word secular, because I was too young.
	But it was like, this is of this world, and God is, and there was this cold eye.
	And that was the last time I remember ever really believing in that.
	And so I can't figure out how you can grow up and still believe that.
	So I can only assume that people don't really believe it.
	And the reason that I assume that is because I don't really see people who do believe it.
	At least not since the Crusades, right?
	Like in the Crusades, they would convert Muslims and then cut their throats so that they wouldn't have the chance to relapse and they would send them straight to heaven, right?
	Right.
	Yeah, and I think if they did believe it, they wouldn't be so scared of knowledge.
	Right, or I don't see a lot of Christian or Muslim or Jewish parents, if their kid gets hit by a bus at the age of four or five or gets leukemia, celebrating that for sure that soul is going straight to heaven.
	Because, you know, they didn't reach the age of reason and sin and all that kind of stuff, right?
	Right.
	And so I... And I don't see, like I see funerals where people cry.
	I don't see celebrations.
	You know, I am not going to have a funeral if my daughter gets into Harvard and she really wants to go to Harvard or something like that.
	That would be a celebration, right?
	Right.
	And if my daughter is, you know, and that's like nothing compared to getting into heaven, right?
	So, you know, just, and the Pope, you know, I mean, follows a guy who says, cast off all riches, Anybody who wants to follow me and, you know, is literally carried around in a throne of gold with gold sewn into his clothes.
	And I mean, like, this is just not believable.
	The Vatican is sitting on, what, $30 billion worth of wealth.
	Now, some of it is art treasures that they're not going to sell and all that.
	But it seems to me like nobody believes it at all.
	It's not how they live.
	Like, I mean, Mitt Romney is a Mormon, right?
	I think he's a Mormon.
	Yes.
	I mean...
	He's fabulously wealthy and, you know, he's got lots of gel in his hair.
	I mean, are you serious?
	I mean, gel in your hair?
	Are you kidding me?
	The hell would God care about gel in your hair?
	Right.
	You know, always crisply turned out and the hair combed perfectly and a beautiful shaving job.
	And it's like, you know, Jesus had a beard and probably smelt like four day old laundry, right?
	Like, it just, it fundamentally, like, he says, cast off all wealth, and the guy's worth tens of millions of dollars.
	Like, that to me is just not, and again, it's not, I just, I know that people don't really believe it, because if you really believed it, you'd read the Bible, and you'd say, well, I'm going to do that shit, right?
	Yes, exactly.
	And so, I don't really think that people believe it.
	I mean, there are a few crazy people who really believe it, but we put those people in institutions.
	Right?
	I mean, if some guy runs into a cancer ward and claims that he's going to channel Jesus to heal the patients, they tackle him with security guards, they drug him with something that would make a horse's head explode, and they lock him up.
	Yeah, I can definitely see that.
	You know, the people I've started me to laugh, why do religious leaders need such teeth whitening?
	I mean, I never quite...
	I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh.
	I can't quite understand that.
	I mean, aren't you supposed to dazzle them with your knowledge of God, not your, like, laser beam, ultra-chicklet, broad smile?
	Why do they need such great hairdos?
	Why do they need, you know, the backup singers and the...
	Why do you...
	God made your teeth kind of amber, right?
	Why do you need this teeth whitening?
	And it's a very serious question.
	I mean, literally, if I were to say in a debate between two people, I'd say, well, the guy with the whitest teeth is right.
	I mean, there's some Latin phrase for that, like the whiter teeth fallacy.
	But why would they...
	Why would they need all of that stuff?
	I'm not making this particularly clear, but if people really believed, like if they really believed, if it wasn't about money and power, then they wouldn't be profit involved in it either, right?
	So Francis Bacon created or at least invented the modern phenomenon of the scientific method, but he doesn't charge people for it.
	Right.
	And so when the belief systems are highly contradictory, Jesus had no church.
	So we have to have a mega church with a sound amplification system and a guy in a perfect suit with a dazzlingly white smile and perfectly coiffed hair when Jesus preached on a street corner with wild hair and a beard.
	Like, it's just not...
	It's not what Jesus would do.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Jesus wouldn't sit there and say, well, I could do the Sermon on the Mount, but I've got to get to that dentist and whiten the shit out of my teeth first.
	Yeah, Jesus wouldn't condemn people based on their choices.
	He would just love them no matter what.
	He wouldn't say, listen, hair and makeup before I go to the temple.
	I've got to have my clothes.
	I've got to show up in a black SUV worth $100,000.
	I've got to accumulate a huge amount of money.
	He wouldn't say, how's my hair?
	He wouldn't say, make sure you get me from the good side when you do a painting.
	Again, I'm not explaining it too well, but I do have more respect for religious people who read the Bible and say, I'm going to do this stuff.
	But the people who need to put on this shallow bullshit sociopathic show of status and prettiness and all that, I mean, it's just ridiculous.
	Teeth widening is not good for your teeth.
	It's not necessary to convince people of virtue.
	All it does is convince people that you have wider teeth.
	And if that's basically important to your argument...
	There's something wrong with your argument.
	Again, I know I'm not doing a great job of explaining it.
	So I don't think that people believe this stuff fundamentally at all.
	And also I know that people don't believe it because God speaks to people, right?
	Like if I can go next door, like into the next room and I can chat with my wife...
	I say, oh, I want to have a conversation with my wife.
	So what I'm going to do to have a conversation with my wife is I'm going to drive to the airport.
	I'm going to take a plane to Singapore.
	I'm going to get a bad Skype connection to someone who says that they know my wife and I'm going to ask them what my wife thinks.
	And then they're not going to talk to my wife or they're going to say that they're going to talk to my wife and then they're going to give me something back that's symbolic.
	They'd be like, what?
	Well, that seems a bit unnecessarily complicated, doesn't it?
	Right.
	I mean, this wouldn't happen.
	I really want to know what my wife thinks of my outfit, so I'm going to have a nap and hope that she visits me in a dream and gives me an allegorical view of my outfit.
	No, I'll just say, hey, honey, what do you think?
	Right?
	And she'll answer me.
	So if God talks to everyone and God answers prayers and...
	You wouldn't need all of this nonsense, right?
	Yeah, and I think that they rely on anecdotal evidence.
	That's why they have a testimony meeting every month.
	Once a month, everybody gets up and tells the experiences that they have.
	It's all based on anecdotes and not on actual facts.
	No, but you're supposed to talk to God, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	I mean, you're supposed to talk.
	You shouldn't need to, right?
	Right.
	I mean, if I think I'm married, I go talk to my wife.
	I don't sit there every meeting and say, hey, did anyone have a weird experience like my invisible wife was in the room?
	Yeah, I totally did.
	I felt her go by.
	That's some bushy Greek hair, I'll tell you that, right?
	I mean, yeah, I kind of had a sense, like I was over there in the grocery store, I was looking at those bananas, and I'm like, you know, because it almost looked like your wife's fingers, you know, from a certain angle.
	Yeah.
	It's like, I just go talk to my wife.
	There she is.
	I don't need people to get together and tell me that they had weird inclinations and possibilities that maybe my wife was somewhere in the vicinity, though they couldn't actually see her.
	Or that they burnt some toast and it showed up in my wife's face picture, right?
	Yeah.
	Or, you know, I think, you know, like my wife practices psychology and say, well, I think that I got a sense of your wife because someone I knew felt a little happier.
	Did they see her?
	No.
	But they thought of her, and so I guess you're married.
	I would be like, no, I could just go talk to my wife.
	That's how religion works.
	You're supposed to talk to God.
	And I've asked, I don't know how many people who are religious, do you talk to God?
	What do they say?
	No.
	I mean, maybe they think they do.
	What are they going to say?
	Because if they say, I talk to God, I'd be like, shit, get him on the line, man.
	I've got some questions.
	Exactly.
	I mean, good Lord, you've got a pipeline to omniscience?
	Get that guy on the line now!
	We've got some questions.
	Where are my keys?
	I can't find my glasses.
	Right?
	Right.
	Right.
	So they can't say, I talk to God.
	Because that is so eminently testable, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Oh, you have a pipeline to omniscience.
	I can test that like, whoa.
	Oh my God, I would give my right arm to talk to somebody who had a pipeline to omniscience.
	Right?
	So you say, do you talk to God?
	And they say, well, no.
	God reveals himself in mysterious ways.
	Right?
	Or they do talk to God, but it's a phone call and he's not really talking.
	They're just leaving a message or something.
	I talk to God every night when I pray.
	Well, no.
	If I phone someone, I don't get them.
	I say, did you talk to Mike?
	No, I left a message.
	I left a message.
	Yeah, exactly.
	He hasn't called back.
	Has he ever called back?
	No.
	How do you know Mike's real?
	Well, let me tell you something.
	I saw a snowdrift the other day that looked like a guy who can't decide whether he's going to have a beard or a haircut or whatever the hell he's doing.
	He's like this shape-shifting triple of God knows what.
	You know, like hair blowing across a big pink skull.
	Sometimes it's on his cheeks.
	Sometimes it's on his beard.
	Sometimes, I don't know, I'm waiting for his eyebrows to appear in his ears.
	Anyway, it's all envy, right?
	Anyway, but...
	But they say, look, I don't talk to him.
	He never has said anything to me.
	It's like, hey, we have that in common.
	It's like, but I get a sense of, or I get a feeling of, or I get a this, or I... Like, it has to be something that is not nothing, but can't possibly be tested in any way, shape, or form.
	Right.
	Science.
	Yeah, you know, like, I mean, you go, oh, hey, got a cure to call the guy.
	How do you cure cancer?
	Yeah, that'd be great.
	Yeah.
	You know, you're against abortions and a third of pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriages.
	I mean, what's with this prolific abortion design flaw, right?
	I mean, so people don't really believe in it because they have a book wherein everyone talks to God Because God does that.
	The whole reason you believe in God is because he convinced people directly, physically, tangibly, empirically of his existence.
	He's blowing up bushes.
	He's making it rain.
	He's talking to people, go build this ark, go kill your kid, go do whatever, right?
	I mean, he's mixing it up right in there.
	He's taking human form.
	He's blowing up bushes and handing out tablets and all that kind of crap, right?
	I would have been impressed if it had been a Nexus 7.
	I give you these two tablets.
	One runs Windows.
	One is an Android device.
	These have not been invented yet.
	See, this is my power.
	Next, electricity.
	I mean, that would be impressive, right?
	I mean, that you put these things, I mean, even if they didn't have any power.
	You know, because even God can't make your tablet run longer than 10 hours, right?
	If those were the tablets he handed out, I'd be like, oh, I am so down with that.
	Because that's a little out of sequence, and that would require some divinity.
	Or, you know, he's just from the planet Google in the future or something like that, right?
	Right.
	Here is a cell phone.
	In 2500 years, you can call someone.
	It's impressive.
	Here is Temple Run.
	I find it frustrating too.
	Yes.
	Now run to the temple and worship me.
	It's Temple Run.
	Do you get it?
	I will be here all week.
	Don't forget to tip your waitress.
	Is this thing on?
	Donk, donk, donk.
	Right?
	That would be impressive.
	And so, God talks to everyone.
	And yet now, everyone believes in the God who talks to everyone, and he talks to no one.
	And so, I don't think that people really believe it.
	And so, the question is, why do they hold the beliefs?
	And they hold the beliefs...
	Because of a cost-benefit calculation, right?
	It's not a belief like, I believe it's sunny outside.
	It's nothing like that.
	It's just a cost-benefit calculation.
	And again, I'm not trying to say, and therefore, whatever, right?
	Cost-benefit calculations are a lot harder to change than beliefs, right?
	Like if I believe Toronto is the capital of Canada and somebody says, no, it's Ottawa.
	Oh, okay.
	I've corrected that belief, right?
	Easy peasy, right?
	Oh, cost-benefit calculations are a whole different matter, right?
	And so I think that's really important to understand with your mom.
	Just making a note.
	Yeah, definitely.
	Oh, no, I was just writing that down.
	It definitely makes sense.
	And I'd never really thought of it that way.
	But yeah, I mean, how do you believe something that you don't really believe it?
	It's just a hope, you know, it's a hope that it's...
	I mean, that's the thing that every week in church...
	No, that's not what I'm saying at all.
	That's not what I'm saying at all.
	It's not a hope.
	No, and look, I'm not saying I'm correct.
	Well, yeah, no, I know, and I'm just saying.
	It's not.
	It's a rational calculation based upon the perceived aggression of those around you.
	If I conform, I get all these goodies.
	I get ready-made friends.
	You're a Mormon.
	You go to some new town.
	There's a Mormon temple.
	In you go.
	I'm a Mormon!
	I have a tablet.
	And so you go, right?
	And you have your ready-made community.
	And it's not immaterial and it's not unrelated to success in this life to have...
	You're some atheist.
	You go to a new town.
	I guess you can go meet a bunch of atheist people.
	Well, that's fine.
	But I don't know how much in common I have with people who don't believe in leprechauns.
	You know, I mean, it's not really a very...
	I mean, I can assume that they're sort of rational.
	I mean, they might not be.
	They might just be rebelling against the daddy rather than accepting the daddy or whatever, right?
	But...
	But cost-benefit calculations are very hard to shift.
	And it is basically, if I believe this stuff, I get all these goodies.
	If I don't believe this stuff, all this bad stuff is going to happen.
	Right?
	My husband might divorce me.
	My friends will attack me.
	I will be slandered.
	They might post stuff on the web about me.
	I mean, it's just a cost-benefit calculation.
	What is the benefit to her?
	Now...
	How far you push it is how far, in my opinion, is how far you think the cost-benefit calculation is going to work.
	The only way to change people's behavior who are working with cost-benefit calculations is to change the cost-benefit calculation.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	The only way to get people to stop smoking is to say, Boo!
	Cancer!
	Right?
	Because I guess smoking is fun, right?
	And people like it and all that, right?
	And so if you conform to your mother's cost-benefit calculation as best as you're able, right?
	Like you say, well, I don't believe, but, you know, it's important for you and this and that and the other, right?
	And I'll put up with some religious nagging every time we get together or whatever, right?
	Then she won't change.
	Now, if you push it, I'm not saying you should, but if you do, if you push it, then you basically say, Mom...
	It's going to be more uncomfortable for you to keep believing than to not believe.
	Now, then she may change her beliefs.
	Now, again, that would be because of a new cost-benefit calculation.
	But I'm just giving you what I consider to be a reasonable map of the interaction, just because fear comes from the unknown, right?
	If you have a strategy going in, if you get an accurate lay of the land...
	Then it's not that scary going in.
	Like, if you know, this is my mom's social cost-benefit calculation, which masks itself as, you know, some sort of theological whatever-whatever, right?
	Then you go in and you say, okay, well, I'm not confronting any fundamental belief in a deity, but what I'm saying is that I'm adjusting her cost-benefit calculations in a way that makes her very uncomfortable, right?
	Right.
	So I should acknowledge the costs of me leaving, what it would mean to her, and focus on those, is that what you're saying?
	Well, I'm not saying what you should do.
	I'm just saying, because I don't know, but what I'm saying is have an accurate map.
	She's going to fight back, and she's going to try and get you to change what you're doing so that her cost-benefit calculation remains the way it was.
	Right.
	Mm-hmm.
	Because if you don't show up to church, did you go to the same church as your mom?
	No.
	There's like a billion around here.
	She doesn't even know that I haven't been in a year.
	She thinks I just haven't been in a while.
	So if you say, I'm not going, now she's in a difficult position, right?
	Because she either has to lie and say that you are going, which is a problem, Because if people find out that you're not going and then they find out that she's been lying, what happens?
	Right.
	What happens?
	They would...
	Well, I'm just trying to think of what...
	Because I don't think she would lie.
	But yeah, they wouldn't take her seriously.
	It would be worse than if she didn't, but...
	No, no, it's worse than that.
	Come on.
	Lying is a sin, right?
	Right.
	Well, yeah, I just don't think she would necessarily lie about it to anybody.
	I think she would be like, I don't know, knowing how she is.
	Anyway, I think she would gossip about it, not necessarily lie about it.
	I think she would say, my daughter is now, like another one bites the dust kind of thing, my daughter is now off the church thing.
	Yeah, I think she'd be more inclined to be like, oh, I can't believe my daughter left, and tell a bunch of people about it because, yeah, that's the way that she is.
	And why would she do that?
	Probably just to vent.
	I don't know.
	She vents to me about my brother all the time.
	She could vent at home, right?
	Why would she go and tell the church that you weren't going to church?
	Well, she wouldn't...
	I'm just trying to think.
	The only people she would go to are like her family or the people that...
	She wouldn't necessarily go to the church.
	I don't understand what you're asking.
	You think that she would go and tell people in the church that you were not...
	What I think she would be most inclined to do is go to my, so my brother goes, I have four siblings.
	I mean, I'm one of four.
	My brother goes, but his wife doesn't, and she doesn't have a really strong relationship with him.
	My sister is like the other good one, and then my brother, the younger brother, he doesn't go.
	So I think she would go to my sister and talk about it with her, you know, and how horrible it is, and I don't know.
	But she wouldn't go to people in the church, right?
	I don't think she would go to people in her ward.
	Maybe just close friends.
	I don't know if you know what her ward is.
	That's the people in her church.
	Local church group.
	But yeah, I think she would vent to my...
	Or not vent, but gossip.
	I do think she would gossip.
	That's one of her biggest faults.
	And would...
	Are there church events that you would be expected to go to as a family?
	Well, yeah.
	I'm eight months pregnant and we're supposed to have a baby blessing.
	Oh man, I love how everyone comes up with the important stuff at the end, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And I've already talked to her about it because I've kind of slowly been easing her into it.
	She knows that I haven't been in a while.
	And I haven't really talked to her about my actual feelings.
	She just knows that my husband doesn't feel comfortable giving the blessing and that's it.
	Like that's all that she really knows.
	So we're not for sure going to do the blessing, you know, like that's in her mind.
	And she's just like, okay, well, just let us know, I guess.
	So she kind of has an idea of what's going on, but she doesn't know the whole story.
	Right.
	Right.
	And what are you going to do with the blessing ceremony?
	Well, at this point, I just haven't been ready to be like, okay, we don't really want to do it at all.
	But essentially, that's what's going to happen.
	What's going to happen?
	We're not going to do it.
	Okay.
	Now that's going to be very difficult for your mother, right?
	Yeah, I mean, she actually responded a lot better than I thought she would about it, but I think she's just holding back.
	I don't know, but I do think it'll be difficult for sure.
	Yeah, but essentially, you know, my husband doesn't want anybody else giving the blessing for him, but he doesn't want to go in there and pretend to believe in it and give the baby a blessing, you know, just to do it or go through the motions of it.
	Right.
	Right.
	Well, I mean, yeah, so I think understanding where she may be coming from, that is going to be difficult, right?
	I mean, if there's an imminent...
	If there's a what?
	Social event.
	If there's an imminent social event where your family is supposed to be there as a whole and all that kind of stuff, that is going to be tough for sure for her.
	Right.
	And, yeah, I mean, I think, again, I generally come to it with like, okay, it's a cost-benefit calculation and there's all this stuff that goes on afterwards.
	And...
	I think that's generally the best place.
	Because, you know, don't get dragged into a theological argument when there's basically just a cost-benefit thing going on.
	Yeah, that makes sense, for sure.
	Right.
	All right.
	Well, yeah, so I think that's the major stuff I have to say, other than to say, congratulations, congratulations on having another baby.
	Thank you.
	We're really excited.
	You're very welcome.
	You should be, you should be.
	All right, well, yeah, give me a chance.
	If you get a chance to drop a line, let me know how it goes.
	I would certainly be curious.
	Yeah, definitely.
	Yeah, I think this definitely helps a lot.
	Well, thank you very much.
	I'm very glad.
	I'm very glad.
	Thank you for your patience.
	And thank you for your patience as I was knowing.
	I appreciate that.
	Mike, who's next?
	All right, Dan, you're up.
	Good evening, Stefan.
	Hello.
	So I have an interesting question for you.
	I will be the judge of that.
	I will be the judge of that, thank you very much.
	I'll be the judge of whether it's interesting, thank you very much.
	Anyway, just get it going.
	Oh, you're my judge now.
	There, I thought you weren't a statist.
	Anyway, so I originally started as a very, very hardcore neocon.
	And have been listening to some of your videos from the past, and very few things have challenged my miniarchist position for a while, until your question that, you know, if miniarchist, or if the United States is the best example of miniarchy, then it failed then, hadn't it?
	And got me thinking and really I've accepted the moral implications of anarchy, being that if you really believe that no one should use force against another person, then you shouldn't allow any government force.
	And so, while I accept it morally as a concept, I'm having a really difficult time with one of the specifics, and that is the specifics of how you handle, in an anarchic society, sexual assault versus sexual freedom.
	So, for example, how you punish or how you ensure that someone is ostracized for sexual assault.
	I remember listening to a podcast on the environment where you talked about that you could form juries outside of the government.
	But I was...
	I'm not sure how you handle, because sexual assault and sexual freedom are really imposed on one another.
	There's not really a solid line there.
	Someone could be 16 and you could call that sexual assault.
	I don't understand.
	Hang on.
	I don't understand what you mean.
	Okay.
	Sexual assault and sexual freedom are similar?
	So sexual freedom being, I'm sure you heard that the governor candidate running from Virginia, Ken Cuccinelli, He was going to ban oral sex between people under a certain age.
	And so you would say that's consenting.
	But you bring in, and that's sexual freedom if it is consenting.
	But if it's sexual assault, then you would say that one person didn't consent to it.
	How do you determine consent in an anarchical society?
	You have two differing ideas.
	Hang on.
	So the government is banning consenting sexual acts like oral sex, right?
	Well, the only person then who's not consenting is the government, right?
	Right.
	You know, and if you've got government between you and your nibbly bits, I mean, if you're lunching at the Y and some politician pops up between you, if you're quaffing of the bearded clam and the Constitution somehow ends up in your tonsils, then I would really believe that it's pretty much just the government who's not the consenting person there, right?
	Right.
	Yes, and in that case, you have government banning such acts.
	Which would not exist in an anarchic society, right?
	Right, so in an anarchic society, you don't have a government, therefore you don't have this government influence.
	So let's say you take a case of a 45-year-old and a 16-year-old, for example, and there is no bans.
	Oh, so we're talking statutory rights.
	Well, there's no statutes, so not really statutory rape, I guess.
	Oh, no, no, no.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	It's no rulers.
	It doesn't mean no rules, right?
	Okay.
	Right?
	So you can absolutely have statutory rape in a stateless society, right?
	I mean, you can have protection of property.
	You can have a war on drugs in a stateless society.
	It's never going to happen, but you could conceivably have it, right?
	Okay.
	And obviously, you could have child rape, and I'm sure you would have child rape in a free society, right?
	In a stateless society.
	And there would be, of course, prevention, punishment, and all of the kind.
	It would just actually be effective, and it would be mostly focused on prevention.
	But if someone did rape a child in a free society, well, that person would be taken out of that society, right?
	Of course.
	So how do you punish someone like that then without an overbearing ultimate authority like the state?
	Well, what do you think?
	How would you do it?
	The only way that...
	How would you ensure that somebody would be punished for doing that?
	Well, the only way I could possibly say that it might work was with a...
	Getting the town together, getting the community together in a jury in which you determine the facts of the case.
	But if you don't have the authority to use force on that person without them having used force against you, I don't see it.
	I don't see a way that you could, A, determine what rape was and what it wasn't, and B, determine the punishment for that in a stateless society.
	Wait, sorry.
	When you say you don't have the right to use force against someone, I don't quite understand that.
	You would have the moral right to use force against a child rapist, right?
	I mean, if somebody steals your bike, you can knock them off the bike to get it back, right?
	Right, but that's your bike.
	If you're in a jury and you have two opposing people...
	It's your child, right?
	I mean, the child has the right to not be raped, right?
	I mean, even more so than an adult, right?
	Okay.
	So the complainant in this situation would be the parent, right?
	Well, the child, obviously, and then the parent, right?
	Okay.
	So, but you as a jury...
	So you as a parent obviously have that right to...
	No, no, no.
	Look, you've got to...
	See, the government is imposed...
	I'm sorry to interrupt.
	The government is imposed after the fact.
	You've got to think way before it happens, right?
	Way before.
	Okay, let's say...
	Are you a parent?
	Let me just ask you that first.
	I'm not, no.
	Okay, so let's say you are a parent and you have a daughter, right?
	Would you be willing, as part of your general social contract, which would be a real contract, right?
	So some organization would come up to you and say, listen, man, for 75 bucks a month, I will represent you in case of any disputes you have with anyone about anything.
	And I will cover all the costs and all that kind of stuff, right?
	You would probably pay for that, right?
	Right.
	Right?
	And so they would say, okay, so here's the contract.
	Right?
	And, you know, they would go over it with you for free and they'd make sure you understood it and so on.
	And it would be like two pages, right?
	Don't kill, don't steal, don't rape, don't whatever, right?
	And then you would sign that.
	Because if you didn't sign that, nobody would want to do any kind of business with you.
	Nobody would sell you a house.
	Nobody would rent you a hotel room.
	Nobody would serve you at a restaurant.
	Nobody would give you a credit card.
	Nobody would want to deal with anyone who had openly stated that they had no intention of abiding by any rules in society whatsoever.
	Such a person would not be able to live in that society.
	So you would say, I also want protection from all of these things, right?
	So I'm not going to go and kill and rape and this.
	And they'd say, look, if you do get accused of rape, here's what we're going to do, right?
	And I don't know.
	I mean, you can make up anything you want.
	It doesn't really matter because the best legal and practical and moral minds in a future society will be working on making this as painless and as efficient as possible, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	And so you'd say, okay, so if you're accused of rape, here's how it's going to go down, right?
	You give us DNA samples, blah, blah, blah, right?
	And you say, look, I also want protection.
	Right?
	So I want protection for me.
	I want protection for my wife.
	I want protection for my children.
	I want protection for whatever, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	And so if my child ever comes to me and says, you know, some stranger sexually assaulted me in a park or whatever, then one phone call I want this taken care of, right?
	Okay.
	And everybody else will have signed these interlinking contracts where they say, if you are accused of child molestation, here's what's going to happen.
	Do you agree?
	Yes, right?
	Now, if you then don't agree suddenly, well, boom.
	You're out of your home, your bank accounts are frozen, right?
	Basically, you can't live in that society until you submit to the discipline of that society, and as a violator of contract, people are perfectly in their rights to use force against you, right?
	Now, individuals aren't going to want to do that because there will be trained security people who will do that on people's behalf, right?
	I don't burn my own garbage.
	I don't do my own electrical wiring, right?
	I go to certified people who are going to do that, right?
	Because they take on the liability, right?
	Like if I go and organize some vigilante mob, I'm not allowed to do that in my contract, right?
	Or at least I'm going to be subjected to very intense review of that behavior, right?
	Because because of UPB, anything which a security agent can do, I can do as well.
	It's just that the security agent is going to be trained and insured, to some degree at least indemnified, and is going to know what the hell they're doing, whereas I'm going to be just some guy with a gun, and I may go through a really rigorous and tough review process for all that, right?
	Does that make sense?
	It doesn't to the point of actually defining what rape is.
	Because if you have a contract...
	No, no, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	No, no, wait, wait.
	Sorry, sorry to interrupt, but we were just going on the, like, you couldn't figure out how force could be used or anything like that, right?
	Did we at least sort of answer that?
	Well, it comes back around to that same question.
	So, you have separate...
	No, no, these are two questions.
	Hang on.
	The question of statutory rape was different from, I can't imagine how force could be used.
	So if we've dealt with the one issue, I just want to make sure we have dealt with that issue, so I'm not playing whack-a-mole, right?
	So if we've dealt with how force could be used, then that's fine.
	Then we can go on to the statutory rape issue, right?
	Right.
	What I'm saying...
	I'm not bringing up a new question.
	I'm not talking about that at this point.
	I'm not saying that it needs to be defined yet.
	I'm saying because it isn't, you have two separate security forces, and they define it differently.
	And you have people contracting with separate security forces.
	No, no, no, no, no, no.
	No, come on.
	That's like saying you have two ISPs, and they both handle data differently.
	Would that ever happen?
	Why would they're not?
	Why would you...
	Why wouldn't one security force not want to redefine rape a different way?
	Because the customers don't want that.
	The customers want guarantees that three blocks over, they don't define the crimes differently.
	In the same way that you don't want a cell phone that doesn't work when you drive three miles away from your home, right?
	You can go to Brazil and make a phone call if you want, right?
	Because they all work on a common system.
	It's like saying, well, who's going to force railroad tracks to be the same width?
	The customers are going to force that, right?
	Nobody wants the railway widths changing, right?
	I mean, that would be crazy, right?
	That's the difference.
	Nobody wants railway widths to be changed, but certain people want different laws as far as age is concerned.
	There's a lot of differing opinions on that, even in the United States.
	So you're saying that all these opinions would somehow coalesce Under the same rules?
	Well, no.
	There's not actually that much of a difference of opinion.
	We all agree that sex with a 10-year-old is rape, right?
	Right.
	We're comfortable with that, right?
	Right.
	I think generally most Americans...
	I think we also agree that sex with a 12-year-old is rape, right?
	I think most of us would agree, yes.
	Right.
	Now, if two 14-year-olds are having sex...
	It gets a bit more ambivalent, right?
	Right.
	I think that we would recognize that that may not be that productive, but I don't think that we would throw them in jail for rape, right?
	So the authority to use force based on contracts...
	Hang on, hang on.
	We're still combing over some of this stuff, right?
	Now, a 30-year-old and a 13-year-old Is not great, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	I mean, there's too much disparity in age and experience, maturity, wisdom, all that kind of stuff, right?
	Right.
	Now, is there an exact, well, you see on this chronological date and not one second before?
	This is all stuff that has to be negotiated, right?
	Right.
	But that happens all the time.
	What is the penalty for shoplifting?
	Is it summary execution?
	Of course not.
	Is it, here's a basket of kitties?
	Of course not.
	Here's a free chocolate?
	Of course not.
	It's something which is worked out as productively as possible in the negotiation process.
	Among people in society as a whole.
	And it would rely on the science of brain maturity.
	Because I don't know whether a 16-year-old can have sex or not.
	They might be super mature.
	They also might be mentally handicapped, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Right.
	Right?
	So there would be lots of science involved and so on, right?
	And I don't know.
	I don't know exactly what the answer is because I don't know how to deal with that, with the technology available in 100 years, right?
	I don't know.
	But I do know that there will be some common standards.
	Because without common standards, nobody's going to, like, whoever develops those common standards is going to have such a huge market advantage.
	And ISPs don't come up and say, well, you know, we're not going to handle anything that comes from a Mac or anything that comes through Google.
	They're like, that data is data, right?
	We're all going to handle it the same way.
	And that kind of stuff just gets worked out.
	It doesn't get worked out in a state of society, which is why I have all these stupid laws that change from state to state, right?
	In Virginia, I think somebody said all oral sex is illegal because the oral rape of political speech is the only end-over verbal language allowed, right?
	But I will say this, that the key is prevention.
	A pound of prevention, an ounce of prevention, sorry, is worth a pound of cure.
	And so you don't sit there and wait for 14-year-olds to have sex with 30-year-olds, right?
	Right.
	What you do is you try and figure out as productively and proactively as humanly possible how you can develop human relationships, how you can develop child raising and upbringing, So that you end up with people who are 30 and who don't want to have sex with 14-year-olds because they're emotionally mature and they're emotionally connected with older people and they're simply not traumatized and screwed up and have been molested as children to the point where their sexuality got
	frozen at a preteen level, right?
	Okay, makes sense.
	Right, so as childhood trauma diminishes, Crimes, particularly crimes against children, will diminish.
	And it will be around protection.
	It will be around the protection and prevention of harm to children that will occur.
	Fourteen-year-olds who have sex with each other, there will be signs and markers of dysfunction within the home that will be visible and clear and fixable long before that happens.
	Right?
	Right.
	And right now, there's no agency that profits from that.
	And in the future, given that people will buy insurance against sexual exploitation of their children, there will be companies who will only make money and will make more money the fewer children are harmed, right?
	Okay.
	And that's how it's going to become rarer and rarer because the best medical and scientific and psychological and economic minds will be working on solving the problem of child protection.
	Because if I'm paying 75 bucks a month and as part of my child molestation insurance, if my child gets molested, they have to pay me a million dollars?
	Well, they have a huge incentive.
	To spend money to figure out how to prevent molestation from occurring.
	There will be free childproofing seminars for the kids, right?
	There will be free education for the parents on how best to conduct themselves to make sure that the children are not harmed.
	There will be free non-invasive brain scans for the children to ensure that The neofrontal cortex is developing properly, that the medulla and hypothalamus are not enlarged, which is a sign of abuse and, you know, extra helping a fight-or-flight mechanism.
	There will be tons of scans that can be performed, which are available even now, but which, of course, nobody wants to start scanning the children.
	No government wants to start scanning the children for child abuse because so many of them will show up as abused and the parents will vote everyone out of power who threatens to expose the massive child abuse that occurs within society, right?
	But in the future, people will make money of preventing the effects of child abuse and therefore they will be very proactive, very positive, very helpful, very encouraging and very stern to make sure that parents are raising their children right because society has a massive investment in how children are raised because children come out into society and we all have to deal with them.
	So it's really just around prevention.
	It's not like, well, we have this chaotic system right now And how are we going to impose rules on it if it's exactly the same, but suddenly there's anarchy, right?
	It is an evolution in the better treatment of children, the diminishment of crime, the diminishment of people's desire to have power over others, which arises out of childhood trauma and so on.
	Well, then there'll be lots of prevention.
	There'll be lots of, you know, will stuff happen?
	Sure.
	People will get brain tumors and go and shoot up a McDonald's or whatever is going to be clogging people's arteries in the future, right?
	But the reality is it's just not the same context as it is now in the future.
	Again, I've used the analogy before, but it's like if you're in the middle of a polio epidemic and we say, well, we need a free society, people say, well, how the hell would a free society deal with a polio epidemic?
	And I say, well, no, by the time a free society comes around, there will be no need to worry about polio because there will be inoculations, right?
	And you say, well, that's just wishful thinking.
	How are we going to deal with polio?
	You can't just wish it away, man.
	Well, we can't.
	With childhood trauma and its effects, because we know how to solve it.
	You know, peaceful parenting is how you solve childhood trauma and about 95% of dysfunctionality within the human race.
	So that is my brief argument, if that makes any sense.
	It's just not going to be a big issue.
	And it does.
	And so to red flag warn you so you're not playing whack-a-mole, that it leads, the answer's not clear to me, so it leads to another question.
	And that question being, so you've got society now where there's a bunch of contracts and the contracts determine, okay, this person will take care of and make sure my child doesn't get molested.
	And if so, then they will go to impose punishment.
	They'll go protect me and they'll go accuse this person.
	So today's society, we have a system in which when I want to accuse you, I bring you in front of a court, in front of a government court, in front of a civil court.
	And so we're looking at a free society, and you say they'll be accused.
	So if they're accused and you have, let's say you have now this private court, so I guess it is two questions.
	Number one, if indeed they're accused in a private court and now they have agreeable standards, they're accused in a private court, they're contracting with companies with the same standards, then A, If that court system doesn't exist, then how is that not government?
	Because now you have contracts with the same standards, you have a court system now, and you have the ability to impose punishment upon people.
	And B, if there is no standard court system that everyone has to use, then how do you propose these accusations and the claimants and the accused get justice?
	I don't know if you're being obtuse or serious.
	I mean, are you saying, like, how is that different from a government?
	It's like saying, well, there's a penis in a vagina.
	One is voluntary and one is at gunpoint.
	How are the two not the same?
	I mean, everything that we're talking about in a free society does not rest on the initiation of force.
	Nobody has to force you to sign these contracts.
	Nobody has to force you to.
	I mean, anything like that.
	There's no force involved.
	No, initiation of force involved, right?
	Right.
	So where do you draw that line then?
	Where does a company become a government?
	Again, I don't know if you're being obtuse.
	I think I just answered that.
	What did I just say?
	So when it starts to initiate force without a contract, it seems.
	Well, no.
	if there's a contract, there's not the initiation of force.
	Right?
	A contract is that, like if I violate a contract and then suffer penalties, that's not somebody initiating force against me because I voluntarily signed a contract, right?
	Right?
	Okay, so you can initiate force, or you can respond with force and unification of force against someone who breaks a contract instead of against someone who, it seems to me that it would be initiating force because they have not used force against you.
	Oh, so this is like, so I'll send you an iPad for 500 bucks, you send me the 500 bucks and I don't send you the iPad?
	Yes, you initiate force against me to have the right.
	Yeah, I just stole from you.
	So you then have the right, because I've broken that contract, you then have the right to defend, or defend yourself essentially, go after me with force.
	No, I have the right to go and get my 500 bucks back.
	By whatever means you possibly could, by whatever means necessary.
	Yeah, I mean, except that that's not what people want to do, right?
	People don't want to go over to your house with a gun to get 500 bucks, because that's really dangerous, right?
	You could be some fucking lunatic, right?
	So what people want is get me my 500 bucks back, right?
	And they don't want force involved, if at all possible, because if you don't have a government, force is really expensive.
	If you have a government, force is really profitable because you get to socialize the cost and privatize the profits.
	But in a free society, I say, okay, well, look, I mean, if somebody breaks their contract with me, I want the value of that contract returned to me, right?
	So if somebody doesn't send me the iPad, I want my 500 bucks back, right?
	We already have that.
	That's what Visa does, right?
	That's what PayPal does.
	I mean, that's all sorted out, right?
	This is not a new invention, right?
	If you buy something on Visa and they don't ship it to you, the Visa gives you your money back, right?
	And they don't charge you for that service, right?
	Or rather, the charge is built in to the fees, right?
	True.
	So, I mean, people don't say, well, some guy didn't ship me the iPad, I'm going to fly over there or I'm going to drive over there with a gun and get my money back.
	They just call Visa, right?
	Or PayPal or whatever, right?
	So, I mean, this is all sorted out, right?
	I mean, already this is handled very, very nicely.
	And internationally, too.
	So, yeah, people will call up and say, the guy didn't ship me the iPad.
	They'll look into it.
	They find out the guy didn't ship me the iPad.
	They pay you the 500 bucks.
	And they get the 500 bucks plus the cost of investigation from the guy.
	And if he doesn't pay, they start shutting down his contracts, right?
	Can't get electricity, can't get phone, can't get internet, can't get gas, can't get food.
	Like, they keep escalating until it pays up, or commits to, right?
	No force involved, right?
	I think that's the concept I didn't get, was that you could initiate force, or, well, not initiate force, but you could use force.
	The least amount of force, obviously, would be preferable, but you could use a least amount of force against someone who breaks a contract Simply because they've broken that promise.
	They've broken that contract.
	And the most effective thing is not force, but non-participation.
	Economic ostracism.
	I mean, just think of what it would be like to go through your day with nobody providing goods and services to you.
	I mean, you literally could not last.
	No electricity, no water, no new food, no Whatever, right?
	I mean, you literally could not last in that society.
	Can't drive on the roads, can't whatever, right?
	Nobody has to use force.
	Force is ridiculously inefficient.
	Again, in a free society, it's expensive, it's dangerous, and you don't want to use force because force prompts escalation in response, right?
	So if somebody says, if somebody knows, well, if I don't, you know, if I don't Pay this guy 500 bucks.
	Guys are going to come to me with guns.
	I mean, he's going to be armed.
	He's going to stockpile.
	He's going to whatever.
	That's stupid, right?
	It's not how you deal with things.
	It's like that three strikes in your outlaw in California that was in for a while and then just went really rancid, right?
	Because people were like, well, shit, it's my third strike.
	I might as well go out in a blaze of glory.
	I can kill guys.
	It doesn't matter, right?
	Right.
	Because it can't be worse for me now.
	I know for sure if I get caught, I'm going away forever.
	So, like, simple carjackings or thefts would turn into, like, crazy hostage situations and murders and so on because the people are like, fuck, right?
	I mean, there's nothing going on, right?
	You know, there's...
	You don't want to escalate.
	You just want to start off as gentle as possible with a nudge, with a reminder saying, you know, you've got to pay up this $500 and so on as per your contract.
	Most people will go like, ah, fine, okay, right?
	And, you know, a few people will escalate and a few more people will escalate.
	And then if somebody is escalating to the point where they're kind of willing to sit in their house and starve to death over $500...
	Then that person, I would argue, really needs a lot of professional help.
	Like that person is suffering from Alzheimer's or a brain tumor or has some crazy irrationality and lack of proportion and has a former history of fulfilling contracts.
	So the first thing, before any escalation would occur, I'm sure somebody would be Going by and saying, like, why?
	I mean, you've been paying your contracts for 30 years.
	Why the hell are you not paying this contract?
	What's going on?
	Right.
	Right?
	Maybe the guy's so depressed he can't even get out of bed.
	Right?
	I mean, I don't know.
	But it would not be like, well, send the cops.
	Let's pick this guy up, right?
	There's so many more options other than, you know, circle him with the SWAT team.
	So again, these are just things that I think would sort of happen down the road.
	I don't know for sure, but those would be my thoughts about it.
	So just to make sure I have it right, it would be almost like a massive or a series of massive economically based Angie's lists.
	I don't know what an Angie's list is.
	Essentially, it's Angie's List.
	Angie's List as it exists today is rating contractors.
	So did you have a good experience with this contractor?
	Yes.
	Then people go and see if you had a good experience with that person, and they want to do business with that person if you did, and they don't if you don't.
	So it would be...
	Except, except, hang on, except it would not be subjective.
	Right?
	Because it would be like...
	Did this person fulfill their contract or not?
	It wouldn't just be...
	I mean, there would be all of that stuff too, which would be fine and pretty efficient, right?
	And that stuff's incredibly helpful, right?
	I mean, every time I want to buy anything, first thing I do is go look for reviews, right?
	Right.
	But for stuff that was more serious, right?
	So if I say I did ship the iPad and you say you didn't, right?
	We want to have some facts established here, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So...
	Okay.
	Yeah, so I think that would be the way.
	Again, these are just my thoughts, and who knows what's going to be possible in the future.
	But I think this is sort of how I would like it to work.
	Like, if I was looking for someone to protect me, I'd say, listen, I don't want restitution, I want prevention.
	I want you guys to figure out how the hell are criminals made.
	And...
	Prevent that, right?
	I want to pay for prevention on two levels.
	One is that I don't want – being a life of a criminal is a pretty miserable existence.
	Out of just empathy and concern from my fellow human beings, I don't want them to turn into criminals.
	And B, I don't want to be prey to criminals too.
	So you all figure out how.
	And there's so much science out there to help people know.
	How criminality is developed.
	It's so well known, it's pretty ridiculous.
	But right now, nobody has any incentive to prevent it.
	In fact, governments have an incentive to maintain the abuse of children.
	Government schools could not function if children were raised peacefully, because they wouldn't put up with it.
	Very right.
	And I think that pretty thoroughly answers my question, though it may have seemed pretty stupid at first.
	It pretty thoroughly answers my question.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	The question is fantastic.
	There were a few points where I thought maybe we weren't quite...
	The question is fantastic, and I don't want you to sort of feel like...
	Oh, I've answered these a bunch of times before and therefore it's a stupid question.
	It is not a stupid question, can I tell you?
	It took me about 20 years to get to that.
	So, I mean, I think you got there quicker than that.
	If that's stupid, then I'm too retarded to have any show like this.
	So I just really wanted to point that out.
	Alright, well thanks Stefan.
	Thank you very much.
	Great questions.
	Alright, Bruce.
	You're up next, Bruce.
	Go ahead.
	Stefan!
	Bruce.
	Hey, greetings from another 40-something bald white guy with a six-year-old daughter.
	I don't know how you do it.
	Hi.
	Mine's five, but that's pretty damn close.
	Yeah, and they're interesting.
	Things have changed since I wanted to call you recently.
	I'm not really into hero worship at all, but I wanted to thank you for the tools you've given me that really changed my life and saved my marriage.
	And, um...
	I used to be the monster I thought I never was.
	I woke up one day and I was Darth Vader.
	And I realized that...
	What do you mean?
	Well, I've been angry all my life.
	I never realized it until recently.
	I grew up in an authoritative...
	Probably not when you were born.
	...authoritative Christian fire and brimstone household.
	And I always lived under the fear of hell, not the promise of heaven.
	About a year and a half ago I discovered libertarian ideas and thinking and philosophy and that and I found you through that.
	And about six months ago, I adapted the non-aggression principle and non-aggressive communication and applied it to my life.
	But I wasn't feeling it inside.
	I was practicing on the outside, but I didn't feel it on the inside until recently when I woke up and I saw that I was the bad guy.
	I really was the bad guy.
	I was the guy you would tell my wife to run away from as fast as you can.
	Why is that?
	And I took ownership of that.
	And when she said, I deserve to be happy, it's like, angels sang.
	And I realized, oh my God, the woman, this chick I love who stayed with me through all this BS, she's not happy and it's my fault.
	And then it sunk in of what and who I had become.
	And you helped me find that.
	So my question was, how do I keep that...
	Well, is he tempting?
	Not right now, actually.
	It's been three weeks since I realized that, and I felt like a weight lifted off my shoulders.
	And I'm not as concerned as I was when I originally was trying to contact you, and I'm grateful for that.
	And that's been one change that has thrown off the chains in my life.
	And the other one was when you...
	I heard you on Peter Schiff with Seth.
	Do you remember that interview with him?
	Yes.
	After that...
	Wait, Seth, was he a guy who called in?
	The radio guy who was a Christian and then...
	Oh yeah, that had nothing to do with Peter Schiff.
	The hardest thing for me to do was to give up my faith and my religion.
	I'd always lived under fear and it made me very, very angry.
	And two days ago after that, I was able to let that weight go and I feel like 500 pounds lighter and I feel fulfilled and I feel like I see color in the world.
	I just wanted to let you know that.
	Thank you for giving that back to me and letting me see the spirit of that.
	My other question is...
	I'm sorry.
	I'm doing all the talking.
	I don't know how you like to hear me.
	No, go for it.
	My question was, though, I have a six-year-old daughter, right?
	How...
	And I've implemented the no discipline with her, really reasoning with her and talking her through things like you do with Isabella.
	And it's gone very well.
	It's gone very successful.
	However, there are those times when she's on the edge, and I need to kind of coax her back into focusing on what's at hand.
	How do you do that with your daughter?
	Can you give me an example?
	An example might be that she wants to go out with her friends, but before she can go out with her friends, she needs to take a bath.
	But she doesn't want to take a bath.
	Right.
	And, you know, I don't want to put her on discipline.
	I want her to do these things on her own accord because it's what she wants to do.
	I don't want her to do it out of fear.
	And I was wondering if you had any pointers in those situations where they need to be coaxed a little bit by doing it with civility or whatever?
	Right, right.
	Well, in that example, I guess, you know, it's all in the preparation, right?
	As you heard me say before, so...
	Does she know she needs to have a bath?
	Yes.
	Have you told her, like, from the morning you need to have a bath, right?
	Have you got agreement from her that she needs to have a bath?
	Yes.
	It wasn't sprung on her.
	Okay.
	And then she said...
	Now, did she agree she was going to have a bath?
	No, she objected to it.
	From the very beginning?
	No.
	She didn't really object.
	If I were to say at breakfast, hey, before we go out tonight, hon, you need to clean up a little bit to play with your friends because you're dirty and we're going to go over there.
	And there's really not much acknowledgement at that point, but I informed her.
	And then as time gets closer and closer and closer, she...
	Hang on, there's your problem right there, right?
	There's your problem right there, right?
	It's that you didn't get her agreement, right?
	No.
	No.
	No, I do not.
	Right.
	Right.
	So, that's...
	That's what you need to get first, right?
	Okay.
	Now, does she know why she needs baths?
	Yes.
	Germs and, you know, that she knows.
	Okay.
	Now, does she agree that she needs baths?
	Um...
	I wouldn't say that she ever initiates it or...
	I'm not saying that she would need to initiate it, but when you say it's time for your bath, I mean, I'm not saying she would initiate it, right?
	Right.
	But does she understand that the reasons why she needs a bath, even if she doesn't really want to do it or doesn't initiate it, does she understand why she needs a bath?
	No, she understands the reason behind it.
	Okay.
	Does she agree with...
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Does she agree with the schedule?
	Like, I don't know, with every day, every two days, or how often do you base her?
	Does she agree with that as a schedule?
	No, we don't have a regular schedule with it.
	Okay.
	That might be helpful.
	It doesn't mean that you have to keep that forever, but it's something that's predictable.
	Okay.
	You want to make things in childhood like a metronome, right?
	That doesn't mean regimented or anything like that, but predictable, right?
	Uh-huh.
	And then remind them of that.
	I'm sure she knows days of the week and all that.
	You can put that up, you know, just for the beginning to get her used to it.
	You know, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, whatever, we bathe, right?
	You know, what's today?
	Oh, it's Sunday.
	Okay, so no bath today, tomorrow, and you wake up in the morning, say, and she has to agree to it, right?
	I would hope so, yeah.
	Well, that's where the negotiation comes in, right?
	She says, well, I'd like to bathe every week.
	And we would say, that's not safe.
	You will get rashes.
	You might get infections.
	That would be a bad time for you, right?
	Right.
	And also, what can we do to make bath time more enjoyable, right?
	Okay.
	Well, once she's in, she loves it.
	It's just the initiation or getting it going.
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	Okay, yeah.
	So that's fine.
	But you need to get her agreement.
	And that doesn't mean it can't be renegotiated.
	You can say it's not set in stone, but you need to get the agreement, right?
	And then you just have to keep reminding her and remind her that she's already agreed.
	And you have to say, is that a promise, right?
	Okay.
	Yeah, I can.
	Right?
	And I assume, like, so, and you have to, of course, have laid in promises with her, like, you've always kept your promises to her, right?
	So once you've kept your promises with your child, when you get a promise out of her, that's a very powerful thing, right?
	Right.
	And my daughter will occasionally try to weasel out of a promise, and I'll say, wait, wait, is that our new rule?
	Like, we can just break her promises?
	No, interesting, yeah.
	Right?
	And she's like, no, no, you've got to keep your promises.
	I'm like, okay, so then we keep our promises, right?
	UPP is all you need, right?
	And so once she understands the reasons for the bath, and once she understands the schedule, and she has agreed and promised to abide by the schedule, then for the most part, that will reduce or eliminate those kinds of disagreements.
	Okay.
	Right?
	You want just a kind of inevitability to it, right?
	Right.
	And that she has participated.
	It's not the imposition, right?
	You know, it's like, here are the consequences.
	She's six, right?
	So here are the consequences.
	Here's what I suggest.
	What do you think?
	A bath once a week, that's not good.
	A bath every day, yeah, maybe a bit much if she's still six.
	I don't know, right?
	I mean, but having that Right?
	But if it's like, if all this stuff is not laid in place, and then it's like, now it's time for bath, or I mentioned it this morning, then you're going to have a conflict.
	Right.
	But it's all in the preparation.
	Okay.
	I'll be more mindful.
	You can't parent in the moment.
	I say this to my wife at least once a week.
	We cannot impose a rule that we have not discussed and had an agreement about beforehand.
	We just can't do it.
	Because then that's just, I'm bigger, right?
	And I'm going to make you do it.
	Okay.
	And sometimes, even with all of that, it won't work.
	I took my daughter to a swimming lesson today.
	I took my daughter to a swimming lesson today.
	She told about it.
	She's known about it.
	She's agreed about it.
	And she got there and she had a bit of a cold.
	She didn't sleep that well.
	She found the water too cold.
	She just didn't want to go in.
	I chatted with her and said, is there anything I can do to make it easier?
	No, Daddy, I just want to be with you.
	I'm not well.
	I don't want to go swimming today.
	And I'd driven her all the way up.
	So I was like, okay, we won't go swimming.
	There are some times where it's okay.
	You can also say, I want your friends to like you because you're not smelly.
	You don't want to be like the stinky kid.
	That's not a fun place to be.
	You don't want your friends to say, well, she's a lot of fun, but my eyes water.
	And sometimes...
	My dog howls and scratches to be let out of the room where she is, right?
	And so you don't want that, right?
	And just, you know, appeal to her greed and all that kind of stuff, right?
	And so there are some times where even with all the prior agreement of this and that and the other, it just won't happen.
	And, you know, that's fine.
	I mean, I personally am not going to force her to do anything.
	And if she's not responding to bribes and she's not responding to, we can talk about it or whatever, if she's just really upset in the moment, she was crying.
	And I'm like, okay, well, then we're not going to do that, right?
	Because, I mean, I don't have the option of making her do it.
	Right.
	Now, remember, it is not aggression to not drive her to see her friends, right?
	As a consequence, kind of?
	Self-made consequence?
	Right.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, because, I mean, what I say to Isabella is, if you say no a lot to me, that leaves me free to say no to you a lot.
	Okay, yeah, that's good.
	Okay.
	Right, so if she says, I don't want to have a bath, and you have to be honest, you don't just do it for punishment, right?
	Oh, no.
	But if you genuinely then don't feel like doing her the favor of driving her to see her friends, then just don't do it.
	Okay.
	I was kind of gray in those kind of situations, and I'm glad that you clarified it a bit for me.
	I don't want to do a discipline, and I didn't know where a line might be for something not getting done by what she chooses to do.
	Right.
	Now, you see, the great problem with discipline is it prevents you from thinking ahead.
	Because you always have this quote out of, and I'm not saying you would or do, but you have, well, I'll just make her do it.
	Now, if you have that out, you don't need to prepare as much, right?
	Like, if I could snap my fingers and a plane would just come and take me wherever I wanted to go, I wouldn't need to be planned to be at the airport an hour and a half early, right?
	Because I just snapped my fingers and something would happen, right?
	And so if you take any kind of aggression out of your vocabulary as a parent, you're like, okay, well, I've got to do this bath thing.
	I can't make her do it.
	So how am I going to...
	Then your creativity and...
	If you can steal, you don't earn, right?
	And if you can aggress, then you don't plan ahead as much, if that makes sense.
	Whereas if you just say, well, I can't do that...
	I can't snap my fingers and have a plane coming, so I guess I'm going to have to book something and go to the airport and all that kind of stuff, right?
	And so, if you take that out of your vocabulary, then you have the challenge, which, again, I've been able to solve for the most part.
	We don't have a lot of conflicts, for the most part.
	And, yeah, if you don't...
	Like, I was a bit upset with my daughter today.
	I mean, I wanted to take her swimming, and she'd agreed to go, and then she just didn't want to go.
	I wasn't, like, mad at her, but I was certainly disappointed.
	And I was a bit upset, because, you know, we talked about it and all that.
	And...
	And so, yeah, we were driving, and she wanted to hear a particular song that I was a little tired of.
	And she said, I'd like to hear that song.
	And I said, I don't really feel like listening to it.
	I don't really feel like it right now.
	And she's like, well, don't you like that song?
	And I said, yeah, but not really all the time.
	You've been wanting to listen to the song for three days straight, right?
	And so, you know, later, whatever, right?
	And she says, okay.
	You know, she kind of got it.
	And I wasn't being punitive.
	Like, I genuinely didn't feel like doing her the favor of listening to that song.
	At that moment.
	So don't really walk on eggshells, but be reasonable.
	Well, just be honest.
	I wasn't like, oh, I'd love to listen to this song, but I'm going to say no to be punitive.
	I didn't feel like listening to the song, and I haven't felt like listening to the song for a while, but generally I don't mind.
	It's not a big deal, right?
	But I didn't feel like listening to this song at the moment, right?
	Because my daughter, she said, I can't stop crying.
	And I said, if you can really stop crying, that would be very helpful because we can't really talk.
	I can't stop crying.
	Except then when I said we don't have to go swimming, tears dried within 10 seconds.
	Again, she's five.
	And when she's tired and unwell, her emotional self-regulation is not what it should be, so to speak, or not what it normally is.
	But I was honest.
	And I'm not trying to punish her.
	I'm just like, I don't genuinely feel like playing that song for you right now By the time we got home, I was fine, and we played and all that, but that was my honesty.
	Again, just be as honest as you can, but not from a sort of manipulative or punitive standpoint, if that makes sense.
	I have two questions.
	And I don't think you're going to have to worry about Beastman stealing your brain or something like that.
	Just keep working on this stuff, and it just becomes too obviously beneficial to be, I think, tempting to do the other.
	Right.
	Hey, just two quick ones that the normal person can answer in 30 seconds, but I know you like to listen to yourself.
	That's the second time you've said that.
	I think I've done a pretty good job listening to you.
	Hey, have you ever got a notice or anything to cease and desist from the World Psychiatrist Club or something like that?
	Have you felt any pressure or anything like that from what you do?
	No.
	I was just wondering.
	No, I mean, look, I mean, I'm not a fool, right?
	I mean, I check, and I can't diagnose, right?
	I can't say to someone, well, you are a homina, homina, homina, right?
	Because I can't do that.
	I can't prescribe.
	I can't, right?
	And I can't call myself any professional title.
	Right, and I've never heard you say that, so.
	No, of course.
	I wanted to know your take on the Cato Institute.
	How familiar are you?
	Yeah, I mean, I come across them when I'm doing research for stuff.
	I don't know enough about really any of the institutes to make any I don't have any broad recommendations or not.
	I mean, there's places that I think are good.
	I like Reason Magazine.
	I like the Independent Institute.
	I like Cato for some stuff.
	I like Fee.
	And, you know, I like some stuff on New Rockwell and so on.
	So there's lots of places where I sort of go.
	I don't sort of go to a particular place and say, well, this is the place that I want to go and I'm going to look for stuff.
	I look for stuff and oftentimes I will end up in those kinds of places.
	So...
	I think that there's good and bad writers in all these places.
	Well, I just want to say thank you again for teaching me certain things.
	It's really changed Munich for a positive way, and I feel very good about my future.
	So keep doing what you're doing, and thank you for listening.
	You're very welcome.
	Thank you for calling in.
	All right.
	Next up today is Michael.
	Go ahead, Michael.
	Hi, Stefan.
	Hello.
	What a wonderful show.
	I can't believe the quality of questions that you get asked on this show.
	It's amazing.
	I'll take that as a compliment that removed for the listeners.
	The answers suck, but fuck, there's some good questions on this show.
	You're so funny, too.
	I didn't know that.
	It's like the listeners are shouting their genius down a bottomless well of unintelligence, but damn, those are some good questions.
	No, I'm kidding.
	This is for, like you said earlier, these luscious folds of your...
	Your intellect.
	I wanted to tickle them a little bit.
	It's where the brain nutrients are.
	It's where the coral fish hide that are tasty.
	If you can just get it into my brain, it'd be great.
	What I wanted to talk with you about is I really had a few things that I wanted to bat around with you.
	I don't know how you prefer to do it.
	If I should just list them all out and then you take what you want.
	Oh, no, no.
	Give me one at a time.
	Okay.
	I mean, that's...
	I don't know.
	Didn't you ever take how to write an essay in high school?
	You know, like, here are my ten questions, and here are my ten answers.
	It's like, give me a question, give me an answer.
	Okay, okay, I got you.
	Stitch all this stuff together.
	Okay, this is the first...
	All right, let me just tell you, you are racing against my battery life.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	I actually got this...
	I want to make a brief technical recommendation.
	I got this Dell tablet.
	It's a Venue 8.
	It's a little agent tablet so that I can actually walk around comfortably while doing a show and just record it on this little Windows tablet.
	It's actually a really, really good machine.
	It's amazing.
	Anyway, it's got this crazy battery life.
	I started the show at 50% and I still have like 12%, and the screen's been on the whole time.
	I just wanted to mention it.
	All right.
	So go for it.
	What's your first question?
	I'll start with my most controversial, I guess.
	The first one is the NAP, the non-aggression principle.
	I just wanted to talk about it real quick.
	I like the concept of the NAP, but what I don't like are the words that are used.
	What?
	Hang on a sec.
	What do you mean you like the concept?
	Like it's pretty?
	Like it's got a nice font?
	Like you like the color?
	It smells good?
	It grabs you in all the right places?
	It does.
	This is a philosophy show.
	You're not talking about what you like.
	Is it valid or not?
	I absolutely believe it's valid.
	What I don't like are the words that are used...
	Non-aggression principle, and I also don't like the words that are used to describe the non-aggression principle.
	From a perspective...
	So I just said, don't use the words don't like, and then you just started using the words don't like.
	I just wanted to point that out, but go ahead.
	Okay, what are your issues with it?
	Well, and it's from the point of view of trying to communicate it to somebody who isn't, say, initiated.
	Yeah.
	Who isn't familiar with the concepts?
	Who isn't what?
	Initiated?
	No, there's no one alive who's not familiar with the concepts.
	Or the language, I guess.
	No.
	Again, I don't think the non-aggression principle is kindergarten, right?
	Well, here it is.
	Don't hit.
	Don't steal.
	I'm going to do it.
	I'm going to do it right now.
	Here's my first point.
	Many forms of aggression don't cause harm.
	That's one.
	And many forms of harm are not caused by aggression.
	Give me an example?
	Okay, for example, if I'm lifting weights in the gym, I'm using aggression.
	If I'm taking on a task...
	What?
	Yeah, if I'm taking on a task...
	Oh, come on.
	Well, this is my point.
	If I'm taking on a task that requires a degree of assertiveness that could be seen as aggressive behavior...
	Wait, wait, wait.
	No, no.
	Let's get back to your first example.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Lifting weights in the gym?
	It's just an idea...
	Well...
	What do you mean?
	Well, you gave me the opportunity for an example.
	This will pop to my head.
	No, no, that's fine.
	But now I'm going to ask you about yourself.
	So let's say I'm holding a 250-pound bench press and I have to really exert myself.
	And so I scream and I key eye and I push up 250 pounds.
	That's a very aggressive behavior to do.
	That's a very aggressive kind of thing.
	And that doesn't cause anybody any harm.
	No, no, it's not.
	No, it's not.
	That's not aggressive.
	That's strenuous.
	Oh, okay.
	That's fair.
	Right?
	But that's not aggressive.
	Aggression requires a victim, right?
	There's no victim there, right?
	Okay.
	I'm with you.
	You know, it's like saying if I'm shadowboxing, that's the same as me punching someone.
	Okay.
	All right.
	There it is.
	Sometimes it confuses people with the idea of being a pacifist or pacifism.
	And I don't think the non-aggression principle is about pacifism.
	You can absolutely defend yourself and use harm to restore yourself from a harm that's been done to you.
	And you've talked about that with two callers ago quite a bit.
	I have more sympathy with that viewpoint.
	Not that sympathy is a very rigorous philosophical term either.
	But I have more sympathy with that because that is a function of shitty government schools.
	It is essential.
	When there's a conflict between two children, what do most parents and teachers do?
	I don't care who started it.
	Stop fighting.
	That is bullshit.
	And that is incredibly destructive to children.
	You don't have the right, as a parent, to say, I don't care who started it.
	Because that's not how society runs.
	I mean, we absolutely care who started it, as far as society goes.
	That's actually written into the law.
	Self-defense is valid in almost every legal jurisdiction.
	So, yeah, we do care.
	People say, well, I don't have the time.
	They're all just like...
	No.
	You sit down and you figure that out.
	It's essential.
	Because otherwise, you're subsidizing the aggressor as a parent.
	If you say, I don't care who started it, what you're saying is, here's a free pass to the aggressor and frustration for the victim.
	I'm subsidizing the aggression and I'm punishing the victim by not caring who started it.
	No!
	It matters who started it.
	And if you don't know who started it, then that's your fault as a parent for not being there when such conflicts can occur.
	So if you have two kids who are playing together, you be there and you play with them and you figure out.
	You watch them, you know, until they know how to play together nicely, which might take some time, but you sit there and you watch them.
	Oh, go play in the basement, I've got to empty the dishwasher.
	No!
	You go down to the basement and you play with them and you watch them and you figure out what's going on.
	And then if somebody is aggressive, you see it right there and you take whatever necessary steps there are, but you don't punish both the children equally.
	I don't care who started it.
	Just go play in your separate rooms.
	I don't care who started it.
	Give him back that toy.
	I don't care who was playing with it first.
	Learn how to share.
	That's terrible.
	Terrible parenting.
	And it's terrible teacher stuff.
	It's terrible teaching.
	It is essential that you find out who started it.
	It is essential you find out who had that toy first.
	And if you don't know, then that's bad on you as a parent and bad on you as a teacher.
	Because it really matters.
	It is incredibly frustrating as a child to be wronged and be punished.
	And for an aggressor to receive no negative consequences for his aggression, that's incredibly frustrating as a child.
	Now, so when people say, well, I assume that NAP has something to do with pacifism.
	Well, pacifism is, I don't care what's done to me, I'm not fighting back.
	And that I think comes from the unwillingness of parents and teachers to damn well figure out who the hell is causing the problems in that particular interaction and dealing with that.
	That doesn't mean punishment or anything, but dealing with it and it being fair and it being just.
	Because if you give up on justice from authority with kids, I mean, what the hell are you training them to do and how to be?
	Well, absolutely.
	You're absolutely right about all of that.
	I thought the miscommunication was stemming from the word aggression in being used in the non-aggression principle.
	In other words, if I'm not allowed to be aggressive, what am I left with?
	I'm a pacifist.
	I'm passive.
	And that's not what it means.
	And I know that's not what it means.
	And I know that's not the context.
	The problem is it requires additional explanation to someone to get them to be on board so that they get it.
	That's where I'm coming from.
	What would you call it?
	I mean, I use UPB myself because I find that more helpful because then people don't know what it is and then we can explain it or whatever.
	Can you say that again?
	What is it?
	Oh, UPB. Sorry, universally preferable behavior.
	It's my approach to ethics, or I hope a good approach to ethics.
	That's exactly why I called it.
	Yes, that's it.
	UPB. Awesome.
	I'm writing that down.
	I didn't know that.
	Yeah, and I certainly accept that it's certainly valid where people say, oh, non-aggression, then you must be a pacifist.
	I mean, I think I can understand because, you know, it's antonym, it's not philosophy, right?
	But the opposite of aggression is...
	Because it doesn't – the initiation of force is the challenge, and the non-aggression principle doesn't explicitly lay out the initiation of force kind of thing.
	Yes, exactly.
	Okay, what I had come up with was do not initiate non-consensual harm, but, you know, whatever.
	I like UPB. That's it.
	You did it already.
	All right.
	That was my one.
	Can I move on to the next one?
	Yeah, yeah, go for it.
	And thank you.
	That's a very good point.
	The next one was, okay, I hear this a lot from libertarians.
	Which I consider myself one, but not of the party, but just of the philosophy.
	The markets will decide instead of government, right?
	The markets will decide.
	Okay.
	Again, this is for the uninitiated communicating it to these folks.
	I think it makes them feel disempowered because I think many people confuse the markets that libertarians talk about with the markets that the media talks about, which of course they mean the stock market.
	And I think that...
	Yeah, or there is in fact a market for politicians in forms of lobbying and so on.
	Right, okay.
	And so when I think...
	Well, there's a market, sorry, there's an arms market, right?
	There's a market for government weapons around the world, and people assume it's any act of buying and selling rather than the free market, which we can only dream of.
	Yes, okay.
	And that's why I want to say maybe instead of using the words...
	The markets will decide simply replacing, making it less conceptual and more real by simply replacing the markets with the individual.
	The individual will decide.
	I think this is more empowering.
	I think it's more real because the market is, after all, just composed of individual trades where each individual involved believes they're benefiting from the trade.
	Well, no, I hear what you're saying.
	I mean, I think it's a little incomplete, though, because in a free market, the market will decide certain things that the individual cannot.
	Right, because, you know, one individual may choose to not participate in something because he doesn't like it, and that won't fundamentally change anything.
	Right, so the market is like an aggregation of individuals that make decisions, like, We were talking earlier about what I call the DROs, the dispute resolution organizations, what sort of contracts will occur in a free society.
	And the market will decide, but each individual will probably have some things about the contract that he or she doesn't like, but will go along with it because the majority of the contract is acceptable.
	So it's like saying an individual will decide a price.
	Well, an individual can't decide a price.
	Two people can decide a price, but an individual cannot decide a price, right?
	So the individual decides is not particularly, because it's all about trade, right?
	And that requires two people.
	So you could say free exchange would decide or...
	An aggregate of individual choices or something like that.
	I don't have an elegant way of putting it off the top of my head, but I certainly see what you're saying.
	Okay, cool.
	Okay, so that was that point.
	And then my last point or topic I want to talk with you about was...
	It was about the difference between courts or the origin of courts being completely different from the origin of governments.
	They serve two completely different purposes.
	Courts grew out of society's need to settle disputes productively among involved parties, which is what I hear you talking about a lot with the defending the defense organizations and whatnot.
	Be fine if it got all reinvented again.
	While governments...
	Have typically been ruling entities that would take control of a society in order to plunder that society's wealth.
	Like, Alexander the Great didn't conquer Europe to provide the roads.
	You know, in the waterworks, he went and instituted his rule to take from society.
	And I think it's a great misnomer.
	People think, well, we instituted this government.
	No, that's not what happened.
	It has control over us.
	It is a separate entity that has seized control of the great body of men to take what it wants.
	And that's different from the courts.
	Yeah, saying the government is buying for the people is exactly the same thing.
	Same as saying I chose my abusive parents instead of an insult to the victim.
	Exactly.
	Yes.
	That was it.
	I just wanted to hash those things out with you.
	That's really all I had.
	Well, no, I appreciate those great comments and I certainly appreciate and respect your rigor in trying to find better ways to communicate it.
	I think that's very, very admirable.
	As far as courts being independent of government, I mean, yeah, there's truth in that, and there's an interesting kind of full circle.
	Not today's courts, by the way.
	Not today's.
	No, no, no, yeah, original courts, yeah.
	But there is, it's like marriage, right?
	But there's an interesting full circle that's happened.
	So courts were effective in the past because we were relatively small tribes where everybody knew each other.
	And if you did not abide by the decision of the elders or the decision of the tribunal or the decision of the courts, then everybody would know what you did and everybody would know that you hadn't abided by it and you then would not really be able to participate in tribal life until you did.
	And that meant no access to women.
	And that meant the genes of non-participation would not live for very long, right?
	Now, then what happened was we kind of got this non-tribal society, right?
	In other words, we outgrew the tribe, right?
	We had the Egyptian civilization, Sumerian, Assyrian, Greek, Roman, right?
	We outgrew the tribe.
	We had these big cities and you could travel and so on, right?
	And what happened was we no longer had personal knowledge of people.
	And their prior decisions, right?
	I mean, you grew up in a tribe with 50 or 100 people.
	You know everyone.
	You know their characters.
	It's a small village kind of thing.
	Everybody knows everybody's business and all that.
	So then we outgrew all of that.
	We got too big for that.
	And we had this relative anonymity of mobility, right?
	I always thought...
	The stranger shows up in a new town in the frontier and nobody knows where he's come from and nobody knows what he's like and they're all kind of cagey and it takes a long time to get to know people and to trust them and so on.
	So we had this non-tribal society and we lost all the benefits of knowing what people were like and being able to enforce things because we knew people in their history.
	But the weird thing is that the internet has given us back that capacity for tribal knowledge In a universal way.
	If you trade with someone for a couple of years, you know if they're trustworthy or not, right?
	Yes.
	Or even if I've never traded with you, if I know someone who has traded with you and they say, yeah, he's a good guy, trade with them, he's honest, right?
	Okay.
	But that's just an eBay rating system.
	We have...
	In a very interesting way through the power of technology returned to the tribal origins of detailed knowledge about people and the capacity for non-participation.
	Which was missing for several thousands of years, but which has come back.
	And I think this is one of the reasons why we're ready.
	We're ready for a stateless society.
	Technologically, we're ready.
	The instantaneous knowledge of other people's prior integrity, which was only available empirically before, is now available digitally.
	Tribal knowledge has been reproduced by The giant memory footprint of the internet and of rating systems, credit rating systems, contract rating systems, reputation rating systems, product review rating systems and so on.
	We now have an even greater knowledge of people's prior integrity and their worth, trustworthiness and worthiness as an economic contractor.
	Which has not been around for thousands of years.
	Now it's like, bang, it's right here.
	But in a global sense and in a scalable sense.
	Now, I think it needs to be a little bit more formalized and I think, you know, I mean, in a free society it would be, you know, resources would be poured in to make it true, valid, efficient.
	And because of that, we're finally back in the situation where reward and virtue become more synonymous.
	If you were an honest eBay merchant, You're an honest PayPal merchant.
	You honestly deal with Visa.
	You fulfill your contracts and people don't get chargebacks.
	You don't piss people off.
	They don't write blistering reviews.
	That is hugely economically valuable.
	Which is why you know that someone didn't build up a 10-year reputation just to screw you over a cell phone or a headset or whatever it is, right?
	Right.
	And so virtue has become its own reward, again, in a way that used to be the case with smaller communities and localized knowledge.
	And that is, I think, an amazing thing that's kind of underappreciated.
	And I think it's why I say, well, we can return now to stateless courts, which is where these kinds of things started from, because we have the intimate knowledge and we have the capacity for ostracism.
	And those two things are required for courts to work in the absence of the state.
	When you have the capacity for anonymity and you have the capacity to obliterate your history, then it's harder for the stateless courts to operate.
	Not impossible, I would say, and I think they'd still be better than government courts.
	Right.
	Because government courts have prevented this sort of stuff from being developed.
	I mean, it would be developed a lot faster with private courts.
	But I think we are in a situation now where We have sort of the original intent of tribal courts available to us on steroids internationally, and I think that's something that is underappreciated, I think, by a lot of people.
	And Bitcoin, of course, is only enhancing that.
	Sometimes I think it's also forgotten or ignored or maybe people just haven't been used to thinking about it.
	How we could function as a society without a state, but, you know, it's possible for people to get together and own resources in common, also.
	You know, there could be a commonly owned field or water supply, and a non-profit organization could manage that, that every person in the society could go get a drink from if they wanted to.
	They couldn't prevent other people from obtaining water on their own or having another service of their own kind.
	But it is possible for people to have commonly owned infrastructure if they want and use it if they want.
	There's a million ways we could organize ourselves without this gun pointed at everyone's head constantly.
	I guess that's my point.
	Just like you point out a million ways.
	Right.
	Yeah, I mean, and again, because the government is there, it pushes all these, lots of solutions out the way.
	And, I mean, my tiny, tiny brain relative to the market as a whole is, you know, pales into insignificance as far as any solutions I come up with are going to be laughed about in the future.
	Of course.
	As in, how could he impossibly, because, you know, you can't, you know.
	You can't possibly replicate.
	It's like somebody in the 1950s describing the internet.
	It'll be a series of tubes.
	Carrier pigeons will be shot through cannons.
	I mean, you always sound retarded when you're talking about the combined genius of millions of people solving problems in the marketplace.
	And this is why I sort of caution people and say, I don't know.
	I don't know.
	Here's what I would like.
	Here's what I think could happen.
	But I honestly don't have any clue.
	How it's actually gonna work.
	But I do know that we certainly have technological indicators that it's all possible in a way that has not really been possible.
	Since tribal days.
	And this is kind of what we're designed for.
	Is deep knowledge and ostracism for disobedience.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Would you say that it has been, because I tend to think that it's been an absolute deliberate function to get people trained to think only in terms of what the state can provide instead of what we can figure out to provide for ourselves.
	You know...
	Well, I think it's more than trading because the state can do a lot.
	The state can do a hell of a lot for people.
	I mean, the state can make people enormously rich and can get what most people...
	Everybody wants the market except for them, right?
	This is why the state can't function in any sustained way because everybody wants the free market for everyone except them.
	Because the free market is...
	It's a challenge.
	I mean, to say the least, right?
	Some smarter person's always coming along with some better toy and tool and methodology and procedure, right?
	And everybody wants the advantage of everybody else being subject to the discipline of the free market, right?
	Because that way they get better goods and services all the time.
	They just themselves don't want to be subjected to the free market, right?
	Right.
	Because then the people compete them and the industries change and they, right?
	Right.
	Lose all of this stuff.
	Right.
	And so this challenge is why governments can't exist because with governments you can't subject everyone else to the free market and exclude yourself.
	Of course everyone thinks that so you get this replication but that is really fundamental as to why it can't work.
	There's really no better life as far as resource acquisition goes than to have a free market for everyone except you.
	I mean, that's because then everyone else is making all this incredible stuff and driving the price down of everything and you don't have to worry much about competition.
	Gobble it up.
	Beautiful.
	Right.
	Yeah, and it's like if you're the only thief in society.
	Fantastic.
	Nobody's going to bother having alarms or any of that crap, right?
	Right.
	Passwords or anything.
	You can just pick stuff up that people leave on the street.
	Oh, shit, I guess I lost it.
	Exactly.
	Right.
	And so what happens is thieves expand until the defensive measures reach an equilibrium.
	Right.
	And it's the same thing with the state, except the state, because of coercion, cannot achieve an equilibrium.
	And therefore it always goes on to...
	To collapse.
	And, you know, hopefully we'll figure this stuff out.
	You know, Germans figured out good parenting after the horrors of the Second World War, and hopefully we'll figure out some of this stuff without too much horror.
	I'm not sure about that, hopefully.
	Yeah, and you know what?
	I wanted to say thank you for putting those concepts out there.
	I'd never considered them until you put them in one of your productions.
	Which ones?
	Well, there's one you did about circumcision.
	That's when I don't...
	That was the first time I donated.
	I went, wow, this is fascinating stuff.
	And then you had another one about parenting.
	And I watched that one, too.
	I can't remember.
	Maybe more than one, but yeah.
	All right.
	Yeah, circumcision, you know, it's something that somebody pointed out.
	Circumcision is big business.
	It's unbelievable.
	You know, people don't...
	Yeah, and it's not just the price of the circumcision, right?
	I mean, obviously that's important, but the foreskins are used for cosmetic products.
	Wow.
	Yeah, I mean, Oprah Winfrey uses a face cream made with human foreskin, according to some places that I have read.
	It is huge money.
	That's barbaric.
	And yeah, it is.
	I mean, it's just astonishing.
	And I mean, can you imagine if men used hair cream made from the dismembered clitorises of little girls?
	I mean, people would just say that is like ridiculously barbaric.
	But it is.
	It's just astonishing.
	So it's two different markets for human foreskin.
	One is the cosmetics industry.
	You may have heard that Oprah Winfrey uses a face cream made with human foreskin.
	It's a pretty lucrative business when you consider that a bottle of this face cream will sell for a hundred bucks.
	The other market for foreskins is in the medical field.
	Did you know that you can buy a milliliter of frozen foreskin for...
	Fibroblasts have many applications.
	The website of ATCC, the Biological Resource Center, selling these fibroblasts says that they can be used in response to pathogens, skin aging, wound healing, gene delivery, and skin diseases.
	One single foreskin can actually pull in $100,000 in total.
	Bet the owner of that foreskin won't see a dying poor kid how he could go to college a few times on that amount of money.
	They're paying $303,000 to cut away a healthy body part and they can pay hundreds of thousands more or charge for follow-up circumcision revision surgeries and so on.
	And how about instead you take the $705 you pay for a circumcision, put it in the stock market for your son.
	That way, if in 18 years he decides his natural body is icky, he can use that money to get circumcised or to buy a nice car.
	I bet he'll choose the car.
	And that's from savingbabies.blogspot.ca.
	So, yeah, it is a terrifyingly lucrative business and just absolutely horrendous.
	You've made a difference in our family.
	I thank you for that, Stefan.
	All right.
	Well, thanks, everybody, so much.
	Yes, we switched mics.
	My battery died.
	And have yourselves a completely wonderful week.
	Of course, we will chat with you Sunday morning, 10 a.m.
	sharp.
	Eastern Standard Time.
	And thanks, of course, to the great callers.
	If you want to help out the show, oh, please, please, please do.
	FDRURL.com forward slash donate.
	And don't forget, if you want to share the Bomb and the Brain series, again, I think some of the most important work I've done.
	FDRURL.com forward slash B-I-B. Have a great week, everyone.

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