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Jan. 4, 2014 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:28:28

2576 Getting What You Need... Now! - Thursday Call In Show January 2nd, 2014

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	Hi, everybody.
	It's the 2nd of January.
	And you have these New Year's resolutions, right?
	Just say I'm going to do some sit-ups.
	I was at the gym today and seeing all of the people, all of the pear-shaped people doing way too many sit-ups, knowing that next week it will all be back to us regulars, is one of the interesting aspects of...
	New Year's.
	But I will tell you another interesting aspect of New Year's.
	So I've had an ambivalent relationship with Canada for quite some time.
	Now, ambivalent, for those of you who've seen Girl Interrupted, does not mean that I'm sort of, eh.
	You know, a little bit.
	Come see, come sa.
	A little bit this, a little bit that.
	It means I have torn.
	I am torn.
	I see opposite poles.
	And I guess like a man standing equidistant from two dancers in a special nightclub, I am torn between two poles.
	And...
	I mean, lots of things are great about Canada.
	People are pretty nice as a whole.
	It's got that repressed, you know, pack down the farts until you squeak mentality that is so common in England as well.
	So I feel not wildly not at home.
	And there's some nice things about it.
	But...
	It's fucking cold.
	And...
	I didn't mind that when I was younger.
	When I was a kid, I could go to bargaining and skating and stuff like that.
	When I got older, I took up skiing and stuff like that.
	And I'm a pretty good skier and like to ski.
	But, you know, since I became a dad, skiing.
	These and many other things are right out the window side.
	Because not a lot of skiing going on when you're a stay-at-home dad.
	Because, you know...
	Kids don't ski.
	They're selfish that way.
	They like to have their bones attached to each other and what can I say?
	It's just part of the narcissism of toddlerhood.
	But it's really cold.
	Now, I'm actually down here in California for a little bit because I'm doing the Joe Rogan show.
	I wanted to kind of acclimatize, you know, get not jet-lagged and all that, be kind of alert because, you know, I like to do a good job.
	You know, people donate money to me.
	It's nice not to have me go down and, you know, catch a nap during one of Joe Rogan's shows.
	So, I'm down here and it's really nice.
	And you know what?
	I get to go to this gracious, wonderful, delightful place called Outside.
	Now, that normally is a problem as a whole, right?
	I mean, I've spent a couple of years inside in the winter because...
	Isabella, not a huge fan of the outside, which I can completely understand.
	You know, once you've made your second snow angel, it's like, I'm cold.
	There's not much to do.
	You know, she's still kind of too young for snowball fights.
	She's just getting old enough now for tobogganing and stuff like that.
	She could probably take her skiing and stuff.
	She, like her mom, not a huge fan of the cold.
	And I don't mind the cold too much as long as I get to do something.
	But of course, when you're a parent, everything is, you get slow motion sickness, right?
	Like family tried to go for a hike the other day.
	And, you know, Isabella, of course, wishes to collect every conceivable stone in the Death Valley known as Palm Springs.
	And there's just, everything is so slow.
	And I find, I thought, oh man, I'm getting so tired.
	Did I eat something that's like, was it carb heavy?
	It's like, oh no, I'm getting so tired because I'm covering about 10 feet an hour under the sun when I'm walking, which is not a great way to keep your energy level up.
	Just try it, try it, try doing it.
	Try shuffling like a 98-year-old Tortoise from one room to another and see what your energy levels are like and so But we're out.
	You know, we're out doing things.
	We went to the cable car today.
	We're out getting things.
	We're going places.
	We're outside.
	We're out in the big blue room meeting all the flesh people.
	And that's pretty tasty.
	I gotta tell you, I'm an outdoor person.
	I love to be outdoors.
	I love to meet people and all of that.
	So it's nice being outdoors is what I'm trying to say.
	I guess I've said that.
	Anyway.
	So simultaneous to this, right?
	Simultaneous to leaving six days of no power when it's minus 15 outside, which was really, really, really not fun, along with being sick, which, you know, comes from being indoors with other people all the time, coughing weakly into your Victorian elbow and blowing tuberculotic snot filled with blood into your Victorian handkerchief.
	It's...
	Not, it was not a good experience in Canada over Christmas.
	There was really no Christmas other than huddled in a hotel room praying to the ACDC gods to drop their pants, do a guitar solo, and power up our house, man.
	And by the way, thank you to the men.
	Dare I say it?
	Yeah, I guess I dare say it.
	You know, all the invisible men who keep this crap running for me and the ladies.
	Since my handiness is not exactly exquisite.
	But thank you to those guys.
	And I did thank them, you know, whenever I saw the Hydro guys working out there in the cold all night, cutting up trees, restoring power, and all that kind of stuff.
	That was...
	It's amazing.
	It's absolutely wonderful.
	And guys don't get enough credit, you know?
	I mean, the whole of civilization is built on the bones and frostbite of men and...
	Thank you, guys, for allowing me to do all this frou-frou stuff.
	I mean, I put my time in.
	I did my manual labor.
	And I goldpanned and claim staked and dug ditches and wells and, you know, built stuff.
	I mean, I've done.
	But, you know, thank you to those guys who are still doing it.
	It is what allows the ladies to...
	I have only 2% of workplace deaths, mostly because of paper cuts and stress from female office politics, but it's nice.
	Sewage, electricity, roads, all of the stuff, all designed and built by men for the comfort of women and children.
	Thank you, men, for making all this stuff work, and I really appreciate that.
	If I had a bad Christmas, you know, getting thrown up by my daughter in a hotel room, These guys had an even worse Christmas, stuck outside at minus 15, trying to untangle endless trees from power lines.
	Anyway, so I didn't have a great time in Canada over Christmas because it was cold.
	There was no power.
	Come to California.
	It's beautiful here.
	Talked to a friend of mine.
	He's been my friend for like 25 years.
	He's like, oh, yes, I'm down here in San Francisco now.
	I have a three-year work visa.
	I think I'm just going to work here for a while.
	I'm like, hmm, really?
	I'm sorry for whatever Nordic Freya-based gods I pissed off that have got me entombed to the Canadian frigid icy witch-tit fist of Canada in the Canadian winter.
	But let me tell you, so when I pick up the Drudge Report, right, I have a look at the Drudge Report, and On the treasure report, they mention Winnipeg.
	Now, for those of you who don't know, Winnipeg is a fairly northern Canadian city.
	I actually went there once just before I got married for business and left as quickly as I can.
	It's not often, you know, hijacking actually occurs a lot in Canada.
	It's mostly people who see Winnipeg and then want to hijack the plane immediately.
	And just have it take them anywhere but Winnipeg.
	Not the most beautiful city.
	It's really unbelievably cold in the winter, but at least in the summer, it's infested with black flies and mosquitoes.
	It really is a true living hell.
	And I went, I guess, just before I got married.
	So I was there in December.
	And yes, it certainly did live up to its reputation.
	A lot of Winnipeg is, don't touch that!
	You'll freeze and stick.
	That being...
	Anything.
	And so it's cold.
	Anyway, so I pick up the Drudge Report, look at the Drudge Report, and what do I see?
	Well, it's like every now and then you try and read these signs about what you're supposed to do with your life or where you're supposed to go.
	And it says in Winnipeg, which is of course in Canada, which I did not have a great experience with before coming down to California, it says about Winnipeg that it is as cold As Mars.
	Not the candy bar, not the Spike Lee character, but the fourth planet from the solar system.
	In other words, Winnipeg has become so cold, they've run out of earthly places to compare it to.
	And because most people don't understand Kelvin, but a lot of people have heard about Mars from Jack Nicholson movies, They have decided to compare Winnipeg to Mars.
	Winnipeg was minus 52 or minus 53 degrees.
	And at that point, centigrade, Fahrenheit, who cares?
	Your city, your country, a city in your country is actually being compared to Mars in terms of temperature.
	So If you have a house anywhere in a warm place, I will pay you to come live there.
	That's basically what I'm saying.
	So, it is just something to mention.
	I may, in fact, be done with the cold.
	I'm not sure my daughter is going to turn anytime soon.
	I think she got too many...
	Greek genes from my wife and basically my wife is a heat-seeking missile and if your temperature is a tenth to a fifth of a degree above the air she will attach you like a lamprey and suck the last living heat juice out of your veins in a obviously adorable and fantastic manner but nonetheless it is I think going to take me a fairly large number of security guards to get me back on that plane To Canada because,
	of course, I will be returning in January where, with any luck, I mean, with any luck, the temperatures will still be hovering between Uranus's North Pole and the asteroid belt, hopefully heading sunward at some point.
	And you know it's not a great place when a city in your country is a great training ground for Thank you for your patience.
	If you hear any noises in your basement that's me attempting to mate With your water heater.
	So, don't be alarmed.
	Unless you've recently cancelled the subscription.
	In which case, be alarmed!
	Be very alarmed.
	You Americans have it so damn lucky it's ridiculous.
	Hey, you want cold?
	Go to Colorado.
	Hey, you want not cold?
	Go to Texas.
	Go to Florida.
	Go to California.
	Canada, it's like Well, you can huddle near the border and gaze at people on TV enjoying the sun while you slowly sob into your snowbank, but you've really got very little choice.
	I guess you can go to British Columbia where you have to deal with rain-soaked red-eyed hippies who regularly seem to take naps at around 4.20 in the afternoon and the constant rain, right?
	There's a reason why the Victorian newspaper is called the Times Colonist.
	What?
	Times Colonist?
	Exactly.
	So a little behind the Times, but still colonists.
	And that's your choice.
	Weak, wet, drizzly, and cold.
	We're almost never a Seattle kind of weather.
	It's never sunny.
	Or you can go east to Newfoundland and try and figure out what language they're speaking.
	It's not English.
	But it's not really anything else either.
	So that's really, really tough.
	That's really tough.
	Trying to understand what they're saying in Newfoundland is like trying to read texts from a really drunk guy who's typing with his elbows on a tiny keyboard.
	Maybe it'll make some sense, but you really hesitate to guess whether somebody's offering you a herring, their hand in marriage, their daughter, a cow.
	Who knows, right?
	You're just afraid to nod at anything out there.
	And, I mean, the prairies, the flyover country, unless you are actually a farmer or a farmer's lobbyist, why would you want to be there?
	So, yeah, it's tough.
	Quebec, you know, if you feel like smoking in church and doing it doggy style while watching the Stanley Cup, I guess you can go to Quebec and dream that the world would somehow be better if you could throw off the shackles of the federal government that currently subsidizes your province to the tune of Hundreds of billions of dollars a year.
	And where the Mafia runs, really openly runs, the city councils and particularly the procurements, right?
	The city contracting.
	So open Mafia and smoking doggy style Stanley Cup sex.
	That's your choice there.
	And so basically, again, if you hear noises in your basement, I am mating with anything warm that I can find.
	And I'm actually working on my chameleon-like nature so that I can blend into the woodwork and stay someplace where it's warm.
	So anyway, just wanted to mention that.
	Ladies and gentlemen, that was the first Freedom Main Radio weather report.
	First Free Domain Radio weather report.
	No, you see, I may offend my Newfoundland listeners.
	I actually spent a whole summer there when I was 16, and I was actually out there as a debating contestant, a debating guy.
	When I was in college, it got snowed in there.
	I may offend the Newfoundland people, but I'll never know it because they'll try and tell me.
	So it could be anything.
	They may be shouting with enthusiasm.
	Oh, it was great to meet a listener, by the way, who's raised his daughter peacefully.
	No aggression, no violence.
	She's currently deciding between MIT, Stanford, and the Newfoundland cod fishery.
	I was not suggesting the latter, but I think it's on the table.
	Yep.
	Alright.
	I feel that's it for my whining and complaining for now.
	No promises, though.
	Never.
	Alright, up next is Matt.
	Go ahead, Matt.
	Hey, can you guys hear me?
	Yes.
	I mean, first of course, I want to say thank you so much for what you do.
	I mean, just the past...
	I've only been in the community for like three months now, but I've been listening to like Eight hours a day, your podcast, and what it's done for my life just thus far has been amazing.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	I hugely appreciate that.
	Eight hours a day.
	Yeah.
	Why not the other 16?
	I'm at a loss.
	I don't...
	You can catnap when I go on tangents.
	Oh wait, that's all of the podcast.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	What are your questions?
	I had a couple, but I think in the past couple of days I've been going, well, do I want to do this one?
	Do I want to do this one?
	But right now I'm feeling this one, so I'm going to go with that.
	My issue is that I'll try to be as concise as possible and you can ask any clarifying questions that you need, but it's about my ex-girlfriend living with me.
	She's not currently She asked me if it was a possibility to live here, and she did live here once before.
	We dated for like five years and broke up two years ago.
	I'm 22 right now, so 15 to 20.
	And she came and lived here for like six months, and it just really...
	I mean, we didn't...
	We never really dealt with our relationship issues and blah, blah, blah, and it just really kind of fell apart.
	And, I mean, the biggest thing is that, I mean, she's had a really, really...
	Rough life.
	Her mom died when she was really young, and she lived with her stepfather and her three brothers, and he abused them and other stuff.
	I mean, I don't think there was any sexual abuse from him, but then she moved in with her real dad at like 13, and he...
	I mean, I'm not sure exactly, but I know he kind of...
	I don't think he ever touched her, but there was some kind of sexual abuse stuff, and she's currently living with him right now.
	And so I feel, I mean, I have this, that's where my dilemma is, and it's like, do, I mean, it would be really difficult, and she's dating this other guy, and she's been, I mean, basically been in a relationship, just hopping relationship to relationship since hours.
	Okay, so let me interrupt you for just a second.
	You've listened to the show, obviously, quite a bit.
	What do you imagine my first approach is going to be?
	Well, I would think probably going into why I dated her and what is that for me or...
	I don't know.
	Well, you said you started dating her when she was 15, right?
	Right.
	Which is two years after she started moving in with Grabby Hand's dad, right?
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	I forgot to...
	She moved out and lived with a foster family when we started dating her.
	So she wasn't with him.
	Mom died, stepdad abusive, dad creepy abusive, living with step family or foster family or whatever, right?
	Not somebody who's in a position to date with any independence or maturity or anything like that.
	Is that fair to say?
	Yeah.
	And I was in the same...
	I was not in a...
	Okay.
	So instead of talking about her and her issues, which all they do is reveal you and your issues, right?
	Right.
	And I don't mean that in a negative way.
	I'm just pointing it out, right?
	So what is it in your history and your family that made this kind of...
	I don't know if even relationship is the right word, this kind of proximity...
	Okay for you.
	Well, I mean, our relationship, when I first, when I dated her, I liked her because she was pretty and depressed.
	And I've had a pretty, I mean, I never really thought about it until I started listening to this show.
	But I mean, I had major depression when I was 15, 16, 17.
	And my mother, she's always been very controlling.
	I've kind of started to really understand it since this show.
	But I definitely was very...
	I mean, the best way that I can put it, or that I've figured out thus far, is that we both kind of didn't exist.
	And that's why...
	Sorry, who didn't exist?
	Oh, you and your girlfriend.
	Yeah.
	And we both...
	So what is it within your...
	Sorry, what is it in your family history that made a depressed and broken up girl a suitable dating partner?
	I mean, mostly it was just the...
	Okay, well, hold on.
	What made her...
	I mean, you get she's like a completely broken up human being at this point in her life.
	Mom's dead.
	She's had two exploitive and abusive dads.
	She's living in a foster family.
	I mean, she's smashed up, right?
	At this time in her life.
	Right.
	And this worked for you?
	Yeah.
	And I assume you're the same age as her, right?
	Yeah.
	We're not talking some Paul Walker bungeeing down the well-appears thing here, right?
	No, we're like six years younger than me.
	Okay, so if you felt that she was right for you, then you must have at least to some degree felt that you were right for her, right?
	Yes.
	I mean...
	Well, did you think, I'm really bad for her?
	I'm going to further exploit and harm her?
	Well, when...
	I mean, it's kind of complicated, but when I first met her, I didn't even have the idea that other people really existed.
	I'm an only child.
	I mean, not that that alone is part of it, but...
	I mean, I never really...
	Look, I've got to stop you.
	You are twisting and turning like crazy, and you're either going to tell me the truth, and you don't have to, right?
	I mean, if you're not comfortable, that's totally fine.
	No, I want to.
	Okay, so what happened to you that made this smashed up little girl someone that you felt was a great partner for you?
	I mean, I think the answer that I didn't...
	But my mother is, I mean, I think it's, well of course it's my mom.
	And it's, she, she forced me into a position to where I did not exist.
	And I'm finally finding out.
	How did she, how did your mom, sorry, sorry to interrupt.
	I'm just going to have to really ask you questions because I can feel you being pulled off by the tidal wave of tangents.
	I know, because I fight and lose that sometimes myself.
	Okay, so what happened with your mom?
	You've not mentioned anything about your dad.
	Okay, well, my dad, he's a doctor, and he was never really home when I was young, and then they divorced when I was six, and I feel like he was never really part of the picture.
	So, I don't think that there's much about him.
	I mean, there could be.
	But I think it's more that I had this very severe bond with my mother when I was very young, and then she...
	But you knew you said that you don't feel that there's much...
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	You said you don't feel like there's much about your dad?
	But there are two people that you...
	Hang on.
	There are two people that you've just described to me as not existing.
	You and your father.
	Okay.
	Right?
	You said, I was raised, I don't exist, and my mother raised me in a way or forced me into a place where I don't exist.
	And you said your father was never around, vanished, and you feel like he never really existed for you.
	I mean, that's a very interesting take on it.
	Anyway, we can mull that over and see if it comes back.
	Okay.
	Am I right in guessing that if your mother married a doctor not for love, that she herself was very pretty?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	That's a pretty common, right?
	Doctors get to pick, you know, doctors and rock stars get to pick the most physically appealing women, which is, as Warren Farrell has pointed out, a desperate tragedy for almost everyone involved.
	I mean, they pick women who can't love them and the women pick men Who can't love them.
	So the money good-looking or the power good-looking or the prestige good-looking combo for men and women is desperately, desperately, desperately tragic.
	And it's not too shocking that the divorce occurred, right?
	anything which is founded on status and looks is shallow and biologically sensible but emotionally ridiculous right right and you said so you said about the girl your ex-girlfriend that she was pretty right right Mm-hmm.
	And are you, at the time in high school, or I guess high school, were you a high status?
	Were you like an athlete?
	Were you like good looking?
	I guess you had some money if your dad was a doctor.
	Were you a high status guy?
	Not, I mean, not really.
	But in a way, I mean, she said, we were talking about it the other day a little bit, and she said that it was kind of a status thing.
	It was not like an athlete thing, but it's kind of, I guess, 21st century of that, or whatever.
	It was more of like, I was like this cool kind of asshole guy, and everybody liked me because I was always kind of, I don't know, I was just like an asshole, and everybody was like, oh, the asshole or something, you know?
	And are you a good-looking asshole?
	Yeah, I guess.
	No, I mean, you can be honest, right?
	I mean, I'm not a bad looking guy.
	I mean, both of my parents dated each other because they got married because they were physically attracted to each other.
	Oh, so your dad is handsome too?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I think, I don't know the timeline too well, but I think they were, my mom's a nurse, so they were both in medical school kind of I mean, he's a good looking guy, too.
	And so is my stepdad, who my mom married two years after the divorce.
	All right.
	Okay.
	Now, in what way were you an asshole?
	Were?
	I don't know whether you still are.
	You said in the past.
	I mean, I've been working a lot on it, but mostly sarcastic.
	And I would always...
	I would always...
	I mean, I never did it, or at least never, but I did it much, much less to her because I started to feel this bond with her.
	But I still did it to some degree, but that's another thing.
	But mostly, I mean, sarcasm and just really getting really deep into what stung people.
	Because I've always had this interest in psychology, and I think I always kind of understood why people did things the way they did it.
	Oh, so you mean that you can find people's...
	Sorry, so you think you can find people's soft spot and wound them verbally, is that right?
	Yeah, that's what I did.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Would you categorize that as verbal abuse or sadism or cruelty or teasing or how would you put that?
	I would think that there was some...
	Some of it was that I would probably consider verbal abuse.
	But more...
	I mean, it was more playful most of the...
	No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	Don't give me the playful word.
	Come on.
	Don't call yourself an asshole and say that you were able to wound people with your words and then say it was playful.
	I mean, let's be honest, right?
	It was not playful.
	You may have covered it up like it was playful, but not...
	It was not playful.
	Everybody interpreted it as playful.
	No, no, no, no.
	People did not interpret it as playful.
	That's a defense mechanism.
	Okay.
	It definitely is, yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So what's your question?
	I'm sorry, because I've been interrupting you the whole time, and I apologize for that, but I just want to make sure we get to your question.
	Yeah, I mean, I really do appreciate this kind of stuff, but yeah, I do want to...
	I mean, so the question is, I mean, I've been working on...
	I spent a year in therapy.
	It was more of a...
	What's the word?
	Damage control at the time, but I did spend some time in therapy.
	I mean, I've spent all the time in these podcasts, so I think it's definitely moving forward.
	I keep asking you for questions, and then you give me more information.
	So I will have to ask now, what was the damage being controlled?
	Well, at the time, I was majorly depressed and suicidal at the time.
	This was when I was 16.
	And when did the depression start?
	About 15.
	And before that, did you experience any depression that you know of?
	Not that I know of, no.
	So did it start around the same time that you started dating this woman?
	It was before.
	Probably a year or a year and a half before.
	Right.
	Was there any incident that precipitated it, or did you just wake up one day, or did it start slowly?
	It definitely started around when I got into high school.
	I met some people, and I started using some drugs, and I think that definitely played into it.
	Right.
	And I'm sorry for all of this.
	Did your biological father have much to do with you after six?
	After the divorce?
	I mean, he wanted...
	Well, I won't make it how he felt, but he would want me to come over and see him on the weekends and stuff.
	And I didn't really want to do that when I was younger.
	And then I moved in with him at 15...
	I can't remember exactly why, but I remember that my mother was just driving me insane.
	And I said, I fucking hate you.
	You're the worst to get out of my life.
	And I moved in with my dad at that point in time.
	And then I lived with him until 18.
	Your biological dad.
	Yeah.
	And what was your relationship with your stepdad like in sort of your middle teens?
	I never bonded with him at all.
	I always thought he was an asshole.
	And why did you think of it?
	He has a lot of stuff himself, so he's just really, I mean, he's always really angry.
	I mean, he's either really happy or really angry.
	I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you were just about to say, my parents are, and then we moved on.
	I just want to make sure we don't forget.
	My mom's really religious, so my stepdad's really religious.
	My dad's kind of religious.
	Your mom is really religious.
	Yeah.
	Didn't she get married before God until death do her part?
	I know, I know, I know.
	That's it.
	So yeah, I figured that might be relevant.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	and who taught you the verbal abuse?
	That's an interesting question.
	Okay.
	I would think if it was caught as opposed to a reaction to something else, I would say that it would be my dad.
	Because after they divorced, he would always talk shit on my mom, for lack of a better term.
	Oh, so he would complain to you about your mom?
	Yeah.
	Then what would he say?
	Um, he would just say, like, oh, she's a bitch, oh, she's so controlling, blah, blah, blah, stuff like that.
	And I just kind of went with it.
	I went with him and then I said, I just kind of shrugged.
	And how old were you when he was telling you this stuff?
	Um, probably 13, 14.
	That's terrible.
	I haven't really thought about this.
	Terrible, terrible behavior.
	I want to be clear on this.
	So much of what occurred for you as a child is terrible behavior.
	Divorce is terrible.
	A happy, angry, lithium-based stepdad is terrible.
	Drugs is a terrible response to, I assume, an intolerable situation.
	Saying to your mom, you're a bitch, I hate you, having to go live with your dad is a terrible, terrible situation.
	Yeah.
	I assume that was not much of a bond with your mom, if this is where you guys were in your mid-teens.
	Well, as I can recall it, there was a very strong bond when I was...
	Five or six, I think it was after the divorce, and I would sleep in her bed.
	There was no boundaries kind of thing.
	I mean, there wasn't any...
	Sorry, that's not a strong bond.
	That's codependence, right?
	And that's perfectly natural because you're going to regress when a huge trauma like a divorce is going to occur, right?
	Yeah.
	That's not a bond.
	A bond is sort of mutual respect and boundaries and rules and all of that kind of stuff.
	That's, you know, the incredible neediness of a traumatized child, right?
	Which is perfectly understandable and natural.
	This is what was going on in your life, right?
	Right.
	And she's incredibly needy and she's very...
	I was listening to a podcast today back in like 700s, but...
	You were talking about—one listener was talking about—I mean, you often talk about narcissism and it kind of imposing their will, and that's how I feel like my relationship with my mom was.
	I've always been very, very passive because she's so imposing of her own thing.
	And I finally, after these podcasts, started to realize that—I mean, to be confident and stuff like that.
	Yeah, I mean, again, I'm no expert, but as far as I understand it, the narcissist is someone who is completely terrified at a very fundamental level of negotiation.
	The narcissistic is, it's win-lose, right?
	So they have to win, and you...
	Can only survive.
	And you can only survive through self-erasure in the presence of the demands of a narcissist.
	There is no limit to what they will do to get their way.
	If they want something or they want you to not do something, they will continue to escalate until they get their way.
	And the entire personality structure is based upon the monomania of one's own needs and the complete erasure of the other person.
	And all you can do is become a ghost in a dead house in order to live under the same roof with these kinds of people.
	And again, this is all just my amateur opinion stuff, but the personality structure is so fundamentally founded on win-lose, on bullying, on manipulation, on wheedling, on neediness.
	It can be either...
	Like they used to say about the Germans, they're either at your feet or at your throat, right?
	They're either needy and supplicating or they're bullying and demanding.
	The personality structure is so based on win-lose that the idea of win-win, the idea of negotiation, that two people can be in the same room and both get their needs met, in fact, in better ways as a result of that negotiation, that is like That possibility to this kind of personality is like somebody pointing a gun at them.
	Because the whole thing is predicated on win-lose.
	And if a win-lose personality structure is faced with a win-win negotiation...
	The degree of rage that is released is staggering, which is why you can never win with these kinds of people.
	You simply cannot win.
	All you can do is escape or self-erase, but you cannot ever win with them.
	And just to finish up, and again, I'm not saying anything about your mom in particular, just these kinds of personality structures.
	The reason why the real rage is reserved for the possibility of a win-win negotiation is Is that they genuinely believe it's kill or be killed.
	They genuinely believe that they have to win and you have to lose and there's no other possibility.
	And that's how they justify their continued bullying and predation on needy, independent and helpless others, particularly children.
	Because if they stumble across a win-win negotiation, then what they thought of as necessary in the past is now revealed as evil.
	They weren't just doing what everyone has to do to get by.
	They were nasty-ass bullies.
	And this is why people dedicated to win-lose, to dominance at all costs, when they are faced with any kind of win-win negotiation, that's when the real rage, because it provokes their conscience, because deep down they know.
	That they're not doing what's necessary.
	They're not trying to do the right thing.
	They're just being bullies, particularly on the helpless.
	They're kids.
	Sorry for the speech-fying, but for those who haven't heard some of the other stuff I've talked about with this kind of situation, this is, I think, important stuff for me to say.
	Whether it's true or not, I don't know, but I just wanted to mention it.
	I really appreciate it.
	That's what I mean when I said that I don't insist.
	It was kind of a self-erasure kind of thing.
	Sure.
	Well, no, it wasn't a self-erasure.
	It was an erasure from the other.
	Oh, right.
	It was the necessity for erasure, right?
	Right.
	Like, the chameleon who's hiding against the leaf isn't self-erasing.
	They're trying to hide from a predator, right?
	It's not a hobby, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	Yeah, that's interesting.
	I've often used the metaphor of the chameleon.
	I do some writing and music and stuff, so...
	So anyway, back to my primary question.
	Yes.
	I mean, I feel like it's kind of difficult to get into it, but...
	So yeah, I mean, I have this...
	I mean, you know how I am, to some degree, how she is, and...
	I mean, I really want to help this girl.
	I really want to...
	I mean, she's in this terrible situation, but I don't know if there's anything that I can do.
	Am I... Should I... Have her try and be here and see if we can work something out.
	I mean, she wants to go to therapy.
	I mean, that's part of the reason why we like each other because we're both interested in psychology and stuff.
	But, I mean, I don't...
	I mean, what's your take on whether that's...
	Is that insane to even consider that I should want to have her live here?
	I mean, if she had any...
	What's your best case scenario?
	What would you like to see happen?
	Well, best case...
	Well, I mean, best case scenario would be that she would be here and she would go to therapy and that I could...
	I mean, also part of it is that I want to...
	I've hurt her so much and I want to be able to make up for it to some degree.
	But, I mean, best case is that she...
	Oh, I mean, that's...
	I mean, I... When we first started dating, I cheated on her and then after that it kind of...
	I had this, like...
	Revelation kind of thing where I realized that other people exist and I need to care about them.
	I think part of it, I wouldn't be here talking to you if it wasn't for some of what happened in that relationship and just the realizations that I made.
	Just inflicting my own things on her and her inflicting hers on me and all of our fucked up childhood shit just on each other and there's a lot of pain and hurt and anger.
	And a lot of, I mean, we both never really expressed how we felt because we felt like it was, I mean, imposing on them kind of thing.
	And so, does that make sense?
	Okay, I will go with that.
	And so what is the ideal situation is you pay her bills and she goes to therapy?
	Well, I mean, not exactly, but...
	I mean she would be paying me to live, she would be paying as much as she could, but I mean I would rather her save money for therapy and then she would live here and then I don't know.
	I don't know what would happen after that.
	So isn't that just what I said?
	That you would pay her bills and she would go to therapy?
	Yeah, I guess.
	Well no, don't guess.
	I mean tell me if I've mistaken something.
	I'm not trying to corner you, I'm just trying to really understand.
	Well, I mean, I feel like the primary thing is that I'm getting her out of her father's house.
	No, no, no.
	Let's get back to the mechanics, right?
	And I, you know, before we look at the elevated what ifs, let's look at the, so the ideal situation is you pay her bills while she goes to therapy, or at least you pay more than she would get from a roommate, right?
	Yeah, and I mean, I would hope that we could, I mean, I don't think it would work unless we were, you know, friends and talking and discussing, you know, our feelings and stuff like that.
	But on the core level, yeah.
	And would you be sleeping together as well?
	Would you be boyfriend and girlfriend?
	No.
	Okay, so just friends.
	Yeah.
	And would she be free to bring men home if she wanted?
	No.
	Okay, so she would have to be monogamous with you.
	Because what?
	She would be on my couch.
	Right, okay, so she would not be free to date in this arrangement.
	Well, I mean, that's another issue, because she is currently dating someone right now, but I mean, I have, obviously, I still have feelings for her, so that makes it difficult.
	And I mean, I feel like I couldn't say, well, you can't date him if you're going to live here, but, so...
	Wait, sorry, you say you still have feelings for her?
	What do you mean?
	You'd still like to be her boyfriend?
	I mean, not in her current form.
	I feel like...
	The thing is, I'm still trying to figure out what it is that I value in her and why it is that I have feelings for her.
	But right now, I want to work on myself and I want her to work on herself.
	But I feel like she has no option to do that when she's living in a psycho's home.
	When she's living where?
	In a psycho's home.
	Her dad is psycho.
	Oh, okay.
	So, Hadad is psycho and she's dating a man.
	I assume you don't think the man is very high quality.
	Is that right?
	No.
	No, I do not think he's high quality.
	Right.
	Well, look, I appreciate, obviously, I appreciate that you care for this woman.
	I do.
	I mean, look, obviously she means a lot to you and you want her to be better and to be healthy and to be helpful, right?
	Do you feel that you are healthy enough to help someone else?
	Do you feel that you have sufficient self-knowledge about your motives and your history and why you were in this relationship and what it means to you and what you want out of it to help her?
	I think I'm close if I'm not there.
	And What do you need to do to get closer?
	Well, I think it would be good to go to therapy.
	I mean, I definitely want to go to therapy myself.
	And I mean, of course, listening to more of your podcasts and stuff.
	And I think, I mean, I'm going to be writing and other stuff.
	So, to clarify your question...
	Should I be certain that I'm ready for something like this before I would consider doing it?
	Well, what I mean is that do you have sufficient self-knowledge about yourself, your history, your relationships, and your feelings towards this woman and what you want and what you expect to be there for her as a friend?
	I'm going to say no.
	I think that's a wise thing to say.
	I didn't want to have to be the one to say it.
	but I think that's the right answer yeah so it's not going to clarify her to move in with a guy who's going to pay her bills and who wants to have a relationship with her at some point if she's fixed while she's dating a guy and trying to work things out with her dad yeah so
	So, if you met a truly functional woman, you know, from a decent family, who had her head on straight, who was confident, who knew what she wanted to do with her life, who was self-assured, how would you experience that?
	What do you mean, how would I experience it?
	What would that be like for you?
	Wonderful.
	Well, then why are you doing this, if that's what you want?
	Why are you considering this if that's what you want?
	Because, you know, if some...
	Listen, if some nice, confident, intelligent, together woman comes along and you say, well, I'm living with my ex-girlfriend while she's dating this guy and trying to figure out her relationship with her psycho dad and, you know, I might want to get back together with her but I'm going to pay her bills but only when she's fixed.
	What do you think a healthy woman's going to say about all that?
	No, I totally...
	What is she going to say about that?
	She's going to say you're...
	I mean, maybe not you're crazy, but sorry, I can't do that.
	That's not something I'm interested in.
	Good luck with all that, brother.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	What's the status of your relationship?
	I mean, to be...
	That was my other question.
	We could go out for hours about that.
	The biggest issue is that she is financially supporting me and she would pay for my college and she helps me pay for my rent and stuff.
	What about your dad?
	He helps me pay some stuff but he leaves me alone.
	Doesn't he have the money?
	He's a doctor.
	Yeah, but he makes stupid financial decisions.
	And he hasn't even paid up half of his medical loans for school.
	He is.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Alright.
	So, I mean, that was my whole other thing.
	And I work for my stepdad.
	So you would be paying for your ex-girlfriend partly with your mom's money?
	Yeah.
	I mean, my mom likes her.
	My mom's like in love with her, but that's a disaster in itself.
	Yeah.
	What does your mom like about her?
	I don't know.
	Well, did your mom know that you were dating her when you were 15?
	Yeah.
	And did your mom know about this woman's or this girl's, at the time, history?
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean, she...
	Maybe not when I was 15, but by the time I was 17 or 18, you know?
	And your mom was like...
	I wasn't really talking to my mom.
	It seems like a catch to me, right?
	Good for you, right?
	I mean, not exactly, but...
	She wasn't like, oh, this girl, you shouldn't be dating this girl.
	Well, I can tell you what I would say.
	I think I would know what you would say.
	What do you think I would say if my daughter came home with a guy who was in this kind of situation?
	Who'd been perhaps half molested and had a...
	Mom had died and dad was creepy and molesty and stepdad was like, what do you think I would say to my daughter if she wanted to date some guy like this?
	Well, I think the first thing you would say is, why, what are you attracted to in this guy?
	And then also maybe a no, no, no, no, no, no, no, run away.
	Yeah, I mean, it's never going to happen, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	I mean, I wouldn't think...
	You know, it's funny.
	I can already hear all the people who say, oh, you never know.
	It might happen.
	You never know.
	No, I know.
	You know, she's not going to wake up tomorrow speaking Mandarin and she's not going to wake up tomorrow speaking crazy and dysfunctional.
	She's not.
	It's not going to happen.
	But if it did happen or if you were to call me up at the age of 15 and say, Steph, what do you think of this?
	I would say this will be a catastrophic decision that will harm your conscience, that will harm the girl, and that will tie you up for years to come, as it is doing, right?
	You have enmeshed yourself in a woman who, with all due sympathy and respect, is severely dysfunctional, right?
	Yeah.
	And, of course, it goes back to your mom and it goes back to your dad.
	Of course it does.
	You really, are really, are really, are really hoping that somehow your commitment can undo history.
	History all my whole life?
	Or just her or my parents?
	At the conscious level, it's her history.
	There's another layer.
	But at the conscious level, your fantasy is that your resources can make straight that which was bent, can repair that which was broken.
	Right?
	I'd have to think about it.
	No, you don't, because that's exactly what you're telling me.
	I can save her.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Or rather, my mother's money can save her.
	Right.
	Is that true?
	Can you save her?
	No.
	No, you cannot save her.
	Doesn't mean she can't be saved, right?
	Right.
	But you can't do it.
	I can't.
	I couldn't do it either.
	I'm not a therapist.
	I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or anything.
	I can't do it either.
	But fixing this woman is the job of a highly skilled professional over years.
	You understand?
	If she had a heart problem, you wouldn't try open heart surgery in the bathtub, right?
	Yeah.
	I hope.
	With your mom standing by with a hot towel or whatever, right?
	But you wouldn't because you would recognize that really helping people who have incredibly traumatized histories is a very involved and lengthy and important process, right?
	Which requires a lot of skill.
	You know, if you ever want some humility about the limits of the psychiatric or psychological profession, just Google a little group of malcontents called the Dr.
	Phil family.
	Dr.
	Phil was working with this family.
	The parents were wealthy, professionals, and so on, right?
	They had a daughter who got pregnant at 14 or whatever, and she kept dating these series of criminals and thugs, and babies were born with drugs in their system.
	I mean, she was homeless for a while.
	A really messed up family.
	A professional family.
	A competent.
	And Dr.
	Phil was pouring resources for, I think, seven years into this family.
	Medical doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, swarming all over this family, had them on TV, gave them, I don't know if they got money out of it or whatever, right?
	And after seven years, a woman was still addicted to drugs, couldn't hold down a job, was dating some other thug, this girl who was now 22 or something like that.
	Other sister was a complete mess.
	Mom was a neurotic mess.
	Dad was still completely spaced out.
	And this Dr.
	Phil has the most resources of anyone to pour into families like this.
	I mean, the guy's worth tens of millions of dollars.
	He's got an advisory board of the top names in the psychiatric and psychological world.
	And he poured massive amounts of resources over a seven-year period into this family.
	And you don't have those resources.
	Yes.
	Right?
	And he was barely able to budge the family.
	So, recognize that dysfunction It's not just a part of the personality.
	It's not like a guy with a broken arm.
	For a lot of people, dysfunction, it's called character logic.
	It is the personality.
	Right.
	And so, I can't think of any scenario in which...
	You, a young man who still has a lot to learn about himself, who himself comes from a dysfunctional history, for which I'm incredibly sympathetic and incredibly sorry that you went through all of that, who has ambivalent feelings about the girl, who's paying for her resources with his mother's money, who he's also ambivalent about.
	In order to get better, you need to break orbit as much as possible With dysfunction.
	With dysfunctional people.
	Right?
	If you want to forget a language, you have to stop speaking it all the time.
	And this is not my idea.
	I mean, this is...
	If you have an addiction, right?
	If you're addicted to heroin, what's the first thing you've got to do?
	Stop hanging out with heroin addicts, right?
	You've got to stop putting yourself in situations that recreate or re-provoke the dysfunction.
	Now, you complained, and I think rightly so and justly so, and I'm outraged about what happened to you as a child.
	You complained about invisibility, which is basically around serving the needs of others without concern for yourself, right?
	What is called selflessness, or which Ayn Rand contemptuously refers to as altruism.
	Serving the needs of others with no regard for yourself, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So how on earth, my friend, is this possible live-in relationship with your ex-girlfriend where you've only talked about her needs and none of yours?
	How is this not an exact replication and continuation of everything that happened when you were a child, where you served the needs of your mother with no regard for your own?
	All you're going to be doing is serving this woman's dysfunction with no needs of your own.
	How is, like, you understand that you are not going to be helping her by using her to recreate your own history because it remains somewhat unprocessed.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	You are used to managing non-existence and you want to invite a woman into your life, into your home, so that you can focus on her and not have an existence.
	It's a continuation of everything that happened before.
	It is a Simon the Boxer recreation.
	creation, you can manage the feelings of non-existence by focusing on yet another woman's needs to the exclusion of your own identity.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Am I wrong?
	I mean, you're absolutely right about the whole relationship.
	I think to some degree, I mean, I have been asserting my needs, but I think that what you're saying It's 90% sure still rings totally true.
	I mean, I think that there's a little bit less dysfunction, but I don't think that it's anywhere near the level that...
	Okay, let me ask you a question then.
	Under what circumstances can you imagine your ex-girlfriend, if she's living with you, asking about your needs and focusing on your needs?
	I mean, it happens kind of.
	I mean, that's what I mean by what I said.
	I don't think it's anywhere.
	I don't think that she's capable of that right now, to the degree that it is healthy.
	Well, she's going to be in therapy, right?
	She is probably going to break up with the boyfriend.
	She's going to have some tumultuous situation going on with her psycho dad, right?
	How on earth, in the midst of all of that chaos and true revolution in her existence, is she going to be able to legitimately and peacefully focus on your needs?
	Yeah, I guess I had this...
	I mean, you're totally right that it's just...
	I mean, I had this thing where it was like, as long as she's going to therapy and getting better, my needs don't matter.
	Yeah, I get that.
	I get that.
	I get that.
	And then maybe she'll grow into someone who will recognize your needs, right?
	But why not find someone who's capable of recognizing your needs already?
	Why go through all of this expense and time and stress and strain and trying to overcome your history, your personal history, her history?
	Why are you trying to turn her into someone who can take your needs seriously and really focus on you when there are millions of women out there who can already do that?
	Millions?
	millions remember the world's population is 6 billion so we're not talking about a high percentage I'm not saying it's any higher for men but But you are definitely taking someone who is going to go through a necessary period of intense self-involvement and saying, well, on the other side, she can maybe start focusing on my needs.
	Well, you know that's a way of postponing having someone focus on your needs.
	Having somebody focus on your needs will probably be very uncomfortable for you, and you will want to switch back into white knight helping mode, because that's what you were trained to do by your mother, to focus on her needs.
	Right?
	Did you really like it when your dad was bad-mouthing your mom?
	No.
	Kind of uncomfortable, right?
	Yeah.
	Were those his needs or your needs that were being met?
	His.
	Were his needs being met at the expense of your needs?
	Yes.
	Did he give a shit?
	No.
	No, he did not.
	No, he did not.
	He was venting using you as his poison container, which is reprehensible and vile to do for anyone.
	It's the most vile to do as a parent because the kids are so dependent.
	So you see, you have a history of people meeting their needs at your expense.
	Don't recreate that.
	Don't recreate that with this woman Even if she's a great woman, even if she's fully committed to healing and growth and all that kind of stuff, she is not going to be able to meet your needs for a long, long time.
	And listen, when she is able, if she is able at some point to focus on someone else's needs, she is going to need someone without your history anymore.
	Of focusing on women's needs and men's needs, other people's needs.
	She's going to need someone who is not fitting into her dysfunctional past like a jigsaw puzzle piece, right?
	Because you'll both be pulling each other back into history, right?
	You both come from this pattern.
	And if you're going to break the pattern, it cannot be with each other.
	You have years and years of history with this pattern.
	Right?
	She cannot break the pattern with you.
	You cannot break the pattern with her.
	You may both get help, and I hope that you both do, and I think it's fantastic that you're having this conversation.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	But if there is help to be had for this woman, it cannot be coming from you.
	And if there is help to be had for you, it cannot be coming from her.
	This is a way of avoiding the pain of having not had your needs met, lo, these many decades.
	Because it is a very painful thing to not have your needs acknowledged, to not have your needs met, and to have other people meet their needs at your expense.
	Right?
	That is agonizing.
	That is agonizing.
	And who taught you verbal cruelty?
	Well, your parents taught you verbal cruelty.
	Because they had their needs met at your expense.
	And then you turn around and try and feel some sort of power by hurting other people to get your needs met at their expense.
	If you invite this woman into your life, you'll be perhaps irrevocably destroying both of your capacity for progress.
	In my opinion.
	No, I think you're right.
	You're definitely right.
	How has it felt?
	I hope that I've been focusing on you without bringing my agenda or my history or anything like that.
	How has that felt to have somebody really focusing on what you're saying?
	I mean, it's kind of weird.
	It was...
	I mean, it's relieving.
	I mean, I cried a little bit.
	I don't know if that was noticeable.
	I mean, that's the first time I cried in life.
	Five, six years.
	So, I mean, it's...
	Yeah, I'm really, I'm not trying to run an agenda.
	I'm not trying to win at your expense or lose at your expense or anything.
	I'm really trying my very best to try and bring as much philosophy to the situation as possible as I always do.
	And I really want to say I'm incredibly sorry about the shitty situation with your family.
	It's reprehensible.
	Bad-mouthing ex-spouses.
	I mean, that's divorce 101.
	You just don't do that.
	I mean, everybody knows that.
	Bushmen and the Kalahari know that.
	And I'm incredibly sorry that this occurred.
	I'm incredibly sorry about the man that your mom remarried.
	I mean, women who have custody of children should not marry or date anyone who doesn't love their kids.
	And stand up for the best with their kids.
	I'm very sorry.
	It's ridiculously uncomfortable to have some guy floating around the house who is not connected with you.
	You know, it's like having the milkman over for your birthday.
	Well, milkman, who the hell knows about that, right?
	Yeah.
	So, I'm sorry, you should have had that.
	You should have had that.
	You should have had that.
	You should have had all of that so that you can negotiate in a positive way with people without having to sacrifice your needs to their neediness or their needs to your neediness or anything like that.
	Win-win.
	But win-win is incredibly painful if you've been raised win-lose.
	It's one of the ways we're inoculated against success in relationships by fucked up people is we get so used to win-lose that we are threatened My win-win.
	We are threatened by health.
	Yeah, that's definitely...
	Being threatened by health has definitely been something I've been struggling with.
	For a long time, I refused to get treatment because I wanted to stay depressed.
	That was it.
	Right.
	Well, you wanted someone to care about you and your depression without bringing their agenda to it.
	I mean, you must have noticed.
	You must have noticed how rare it is to have somebody actually listen to what you're saying.
	Yeah, I mean, this may be the first time it's ever happened.
	Yeah, and it's amazing how much...
	Useful stuff can come out of...
	I mean, it's just a conversation between two guys, right?
	It's amazing how much useful stuff can come out of a conversation just by talking and listening, right?
	But, you know, most people are just pulling the levers of manipulation and selfishness and greed and submission and control.
	I mean, just to actually speak to people sort of soul to soul, heart to heart, is horribly rare, right?
	Yeah, it's a bummer.
	So, yeah, but it's possible, right?
	And it's definitely something to aim for.
	And to notice when it's not there.
	Yeah.
	And how do you feel now?
	I don't know.
	I mean, I feel relief for sure.
	But other than that, I don't know.
	And is there anything else that you wanted to mention or talk about at the moment?
	No, I've taken up a lot of your time.
	You guys can get to the next caller.
	I really appreciate it.
	Hey, wait a minute.
	Wait a minute.
	I am not letting you get out of this conversation by focusing on my needs when I'm asking you about your needs.
	Do you understand what you just did?
	Give me a...
	Nice try.
	No thanks.
	I guess I did.
	Right, yeah, because you were focusing.
	I said, what are your needs?
	And you said, well, I've taken up your time to focus on your needs and other callers.
	No, that's not how I want to head this conversation.
	So, is there anything that you would like to talk about more at the moment?
	And forget about other people.
	Forget about time constraints or anything like that.
	Yes, no?
	It's up to you.
	I mean, yeah.
	And what's that?
	It's my job.
	Do you understand?
	It is my job to manage my needs.
	If I need to get to the next caller, if I feel that, it's my job to say that.
	It is not your job to tell me that, right?
	I mean, you grew up in this merged mishmash Borg monster family, so that's not altogether clear for you, right?
	But it is my job.
	You can ask whatever you want, and it is my job to manage my own needs, right?
	Yeah.
	Not yours.
	It's really, really uncomfortable that you didn't let me get away with that.
	Discomfort is good.
	All right, so what else did you want to mention?
	Just the issue, I mean, I mentioned it before, I think.
	I think we were kind of talking over each other at that point.
	I mean, the financial thing, I really want to defu and get gone and get these people out of my life.
	And it's just, I mean, I guess the bottom line is there's maybe there's no excuse or whatever, but I mean, I work for my stepdad.
	My mom works there.
	She has now mingled herself into kind of being my boss.
	And I mean, and then I have the financial support of all my parents.
	Dude, you were cornered.
	What'd you say?
	I said, dude, you're cornered.
	I mean, it's like, you can't even turn around without tripping over this stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, and it's just, I feel like if I do...
	Especially because of the control and the imposition of her own will by my mother.
	I never really learned a lot of really basic stuff.
	Until I was 20 years old, I never called a fucking doctor myself.
	I was too scared to make an appointment because my mom always did it and stuff like that.
	And I just feel like I'm missing so many skills that if I did just say, fuck you guys and leave, I feel like I wouldn't be able to do it.
	So I was hoping maybe you had some insight on how I can kind of weasel my way out of this situation.
	And then of course the… Well, I don't know that I would quite put it as weasel your way out of the situation.
	You didn't weasel your way in.
	It's just where you happened to be born.
	Right.
	Have you tried, and again, I never tell anyone what to do.
	We want to be clear about that.
	But I'm just going to ask some questions.
	These aren't leading questions.
	I don't have a preference for the answer.
	I'm simply telling you that because you're used to conforming to other people's needs, right?
	I'll ask some questions.
	The yes or no's, I have no preference for either.
	I'm just curious.
	Okay.
	So, to what degree have you talked to your parents about the issues that you have with the history?
	I haven't talked to my dad at all.
	I've started talking to my mom as of, I think a week ago, we had like our first real conversation about it that wasn't like defense mechanisms and whatever else.
	Do you want me to elaborate on the conversation?
	No, that's fine.
	So you're in the process of doing it, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so I don't think, I wouldn't act until that process is further along.
	Uh-huh.
	You know, the, like the DFU, which for those who don't know, is just, it's like a divorce, right?
	It's just like this relationship is unsustainable, it's abusive, it can't be rescued, it can't be saved, and so on.
	If you're just in the beginning stages of talking to your parents about what went on with your history, Then I would give them a chance to respond.
	And the reason I think that's important, just what I did, right?
	I mean, I had lots of conversations and so on.
	Because if you stay, you need to stay for the right reasons.
	And if you leave, you need to leave with certainty, with closure, right?
	And closure is just certainty.
	Right?
	Like, I don't think about my mom.
	I don't really think about my family much at all anymore.
	Because I don't...
	I don't have any illusion that there was something else I could have done.
	I did everything I could have.
	And more.
	More than I really should have in hindsight.
	But the more is okay.
	But you want to...
	I think Dr.
	Phil refers to it as you earn your way out.
	In other words, you try everything to solve things, to get connected, to figure things out.
	And...
	If you can find some way to move forward, fantastic.
	But if, you know, just keep hitting abuse and escalation and aggression and violence and emotional or whatever, right, then, you know, okay, well, so that's the lay of the land, right?
	Don't move.
	Don't make any big moves until you know the map, right?
	You don't go into the woods without a map and a GPS and all that.
	So I would say that stay in the conversation with your parents about stuff that was problematic.
	Don't let them, you know, you say to your dad, I didn't like how you were bad-mouthing mom.
	Well, you know, I guess I'm sorry, but that's where I was at the time, right?
	If that's not satisfying to you and I don't imagine that it was, then say, well, no, it was actually a bit more important than, you know, just something you brush off with a little apology.
	So, yeah, I think stay in the conversation.
	I think that's key.
	If you have financial dependence, you have financial dependence.
	You know, if you feel it's very important to finish college and this is the only way that, I mean, I worked through college and I got a little bit of government loans, but I worked all the way through college.
	So for me, that wasn't as much of an issue.
	You certainly can do it, but I get that it's tough, right?
	And so I, you know, it's a pretty significant decision to make.
	You don't have to do anything.
	I mean, this is why I never tell anyone what to do because I don't know what the right thing for you to do is.
	Okay, genuinely, I'm a free market guy, which means I don't believe in central planning, which means I don't know what the right thing for you to do is.
	I don't know if it's right for you to say, well, I'm not going to bring this stuff up until after I'm out of college.
	I don't know if it's right for you to go over there and talk all weekend.
	I don't know.
	I don't know your family.
	I don't know your history.
	I'm just talking to you for the first time.
	And I don't believe in central planning.
	I don't believe that other people can...
	I mean, I can tell you don't go strangle homeless guys, but, you know, I don't get a lot of those calls, right?
	So I don't know what you should do.
	But what I will say is this.
	Go on.
	I was just laughing, strangling homeless guys.
	Oh.
	But I will say this.
	Whatever decisions you make, you just need to be conscious that you're making them.
	So let's say you say, look, I don't want to bring this stuff up with my family.
	I think it's going to go really badly and I need the money, right?
	Okay.
	Just make it a conscious decision.
	You know, drive up to your mom's place and say, you know what?
	I'm not going to bring this stuff up for now.
	I don't know when I'm going to bring it up, but I'm aware that I'm not bringing it up.
	Right.
	Right?
	Just be conscious, right?
	Everything is permitted that is conscious.
	At least that's sort of my mantra.
	You know, everything that's not a violation of UPP or whatever.
	But all is permitted with conscious knowledge.
	Because it is the unconscious that gets you, right?
	And it is the dissociation, the zoning out, the flipping into automatic patterns.
	You just have to be conscious of what it is that you're doing.
	And so that's why I say, you know, just if you want to have the conversation, have the conversation.
	If you are concerned about the money and don't want to provoke the source of your sustenance at the moment, then don't do that.
	I mean, whatever, right?
	But just be aware that you're making these decisions and be conscious of those decisions and remain conscious of those decisions.
	Okay.
	Does that help?
	Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what I was thinking of before.
	I mean, I've heard you say something like that in an older podcast, and that's kind of what I've been working on.
	But, and then the other day, I just, she did something, I can't remember what it was, but, oh, it was over, like, Christmas, and she was just being herself, and I finally just, like, snapped, and I was like, listen, like, this is how it makes me feel, et cetera, et cetera, and it went pretty well.
	I was really surprised, or, I mean, at least it wasn't, she didn't, Use a lot of the normal defenses that you've kind of talked about.
	And I can't tell yet if it's kind of like a manipulation thing or if it actually is actually going well.
	So, yeah.
	Well, good.
	Then I would say keep exploring.
	That's further than I got.
	So, you know, good for you.
	Good for you.
	And I would say keep it up.
	But yeah, I definitely wouldn't bring this woman into your life.
	That's, you know, again, you can do whatever you want.
	I just think that it's too close to history.
	But that's my thoughts about it.
	No, I think you're right.
	All right, well, that's really all I wanted to address.
	Thank you for a great call.
	I mean, what a brave and amazing thing to do.
	I mean, thank you.
	Thank you for opening your heart and your history and staying in the conversation.
	I hugely appreciate it.
	I think, you know, I don't know if you've been watching the chat window, the feedback has been enormously positive and people have found it enormously helpful for you to be open in this way.
	So, thank you.
	Thank you for adding to the quality of the show so enormously.
	I hope it was helpful for other people too.
	And I just want to say, I mean, this conversation, I absolutely mean it when I say that I really think it's the most important conversation in the world.
	And I appreciate so much that you're doing this.
	And yeah.
	Thank you.
	I think so too.
	So I'm glad we agree on that.
	All right, Mike, who's up next?
	All right, Chen, you're up next.
	Go ahead.
	Hello, hello.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hi Stefan.
	How are you?
	I'm good, how are you?
	I'm very well, thank you.
	I came across your show when I was doing some research on Bitcoin.
	Oh, did you get the bait and switch?
	Hi, we talk a little bit about Bitcoin and a whole lot about other stuff.
	Can we?
	Can we ask you some question about Bitcoin?
	Sure, please go ahead.
	I listened to the debate you had with Peter Schiff on Bitcoin and I'm all for Bitcoin.
	I like the idea that it's a decentralized currency and I just pictured it would be a very good future when people use Bitcoin and stuff.
	I do think some of his point of views are very valid, which kind of makes me a little bit concerned about the future of Bitcoin.
	What do you think?
	Do you think a lot of Bitcoins are controlled by the government right now?
	Well, I don't know.
	I mean, there certainly are some.
	I guess when they seized Silk Road, they got, I can't remember how many millions of dollars worth of bitcoins.
	So I think that there are some for sure.
	I mean, there's no ban on governments or government employees purchasing bitcoins or politicians can purchase bitcoins or whatever anonymously, obviously.
	So, yeah, I would have no doubt.
	I actually, I hope that people in governments do have bitcoins, because it will make them less likely to act in ways that reduce their values, as of course the Chinese government has done lately, although it seems to be coming back.
	So, oh yeah, somebody says 28.5 million bitcoins, but that was at the time.
	I don't know what it is now.
	So, I would imagine that some do, for sure.
	Yeah, the action of the Chinese government really had a huge impact on Bitcoin a few weeks ago.
	And I was thinking if, say, the value of Bitcoin and all the other cryptocurrencies got to a huge amount, say, like billions and billions of dollars, And most of it is controlled by, I don't know, the Federal Reserve or the government.
	I don't know.
	Then the government can come out and say, let's make this illegal.
	And boom, suddenly all the All the value, all the money people have invested in the Bitcoin and other currencies are gone.
	If the government makes it illegal, then the value of Bitcoin is eliminated.
	I would say that's not the case.
	Eliminate the value of Bitcoin by making it illegal is like saying that government can eliminate the drug trade by making it illegal.
	It can't, right?
	So between a third and a half of the economies throughout the world are in the black market or the gray market.
	And they're already using Bitcoin.
	Now if the government declares Bitcoin illegal, what it does is it raises the value of that currency in the black and the gray markets where it's already being used Quite a bit, I would assume.
	I don't know.
	I would assume.
	And so the government cannot eliminate the value of Bitcoin.
	It can only drive it underground.
	Like, the government cannot eliminate prostitution by making it illegal.
	It can only drive it underground, which actually raises the price of prostitution, right?
	Drugs are far more expensive because they are illegal.
	So it actually raises the value, so to speak, of drugs by making them illegal.
	So I don't think it's really true.
	Now, of course, it does...
	Eliminate its utility for a lot of the population, for sure.
	But I don't think it's the same as saying that it will immediately become illegal.
	And I don't think that the government would necessarily want to do that either.
	So those are just my thoughts on it.
	And of course, governments have done that before with gold too, right?
	They've said that private ownership of gold is illegal.
	And they've, you know, done all of that kind of stuff.
	So I don't see how that's just particular to bitcoins.
	Maybe not make it illegal, but say, like what China did.
	In the Chinese Bitcoin exchanges, they made it that you can't fund your accounts with RMB, with the Chinese money.
	It immediately drove the price down, like 30% in a day.
	But the interesting thing, I found that people immediately found other alternative ways to fund their accounts.
	Now they're selling this code that's two parts of the code that you can buy from the Chinese eBay site with cash, and you can type in one Yeah, it's interesting to see all the technology and stuff people can do to get around it.
	Yeah, and that will definitely continue.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Oh, was there another question you had?
	Oh yes.
	Originally I wanted to call in to talk about my relationship with my mom.
	After I made the appointment of the call, actually yesterday morning I had a conversation with my mom that really helped me understand the I still need to work on the way I
	have the relationship with her, even though I understand why she is who she is now.
	I just need to I want to work a way out with the relationship with my mom.
	And what are the main issues that you have in your relationship with your mom?
	My mom is living with me right now.
	And I feel my attitude toward her is not very good.
	And it really bothers me.
	I want to be nice to her.
	I just want our family to be happy and everybody's nice to each other and just genuinely happy.
	And I found it's very hard for me to do.
	I get very impatient with her sometimes and sometimes I talk to her, I raise my voice And that really hurts me.
	And I got into this cycle that she says something and does something that I don't like.
	And I would talk to her, raise my voice, I talked to her in not a very nice way.
	Then after that, I got very upset.
	I feel bad for my mom.
	I feel bad for myself for talking to her like that.
	I get really sad and depressed.
	Then that irritates me more.
	Then I get more easily irritated and I get I'm impatient and mad even easier and this happens again and I would feel bad again and it's just a bad cycle.
	I feel it's very unhealthy.
	Right.
	Is there more you wanted to say?
	Do you want me to ask a question or two?
	Yeah, so I talked to my mom yesterday morning.
	I kind of understand why this is happening.
	I think a lot of it's to do with the childhood I have.
	And a lot to do with my mom's experience made her who she is.
	So...
	And what aspect of your childhood do you think is contributing to this?
	Um...
	My mom, when I was a child, her role as a parent is all about taking care of me, making sure that I eat, that I have enough clothes to wear, and go to school, all that kind of stuff.
	And she didn't pay much attention to me.
	Emotionally and a lot of that.
	My dad beat me a lot.
	He had a very bad temper and he had a lot of problems.
	So my mom mostly focused on him.
	And when I think about it now, I felt my mom didn't do her I felt my mom didn't do her job very well being a mom.
	That protects me against abusive environments.
	Fully understand that she just totally didn't realize what's happening and she didn't understand how hurtful this is to me.
	I'm sorry, you say she didn't understand?
	She didn't know that your father was beating you?
	Oh, she did.
	Of course she was there.
	So what didn't she understand?
	I guess she didn't understand how bad this is for children.
	Oh, she didn't know that beating was bad for children?
	That's bad, yes.
	I talked to her later before, and I talked to her about this.
	I told her I was beat so much by my dad, that's really bad, and I felt hurt.
	And she would say, well, everybody did that back at the time because people didn't know.
	There's just not enough information around that beating a child is not good.
	And I know at the time a lot of people beat their children, and in schools teachers beat students too, so it's pretty common.
	But I also knew there are other kids' parents.
	I mean, you didn't want to be beaten, right?
	And you cried and screamed and whatever, right?
	I didn't want to be beaten a lot, right?
	You really didn't want to be beaten, right?
	Yeah.
	Yes, of course.
	You know, like I don't need to, I don't need a lot of studies if my daughter, if I try and put my daughter in bath water that's too hot and she says it's too hot, I don't say, well, I don't have enough studies, right?
	Because she's She's uncomfortable, right?
	Yes.
	When she grew up, her parents beat her too.
	She didn't think that affected her when she grew up.
	When I talked to her, she would say...
	Yeah, she would say, but my parents beat me too, and like, after I grow up, I don't really hate them, and I understand why they did that, things like that.
	Sorry, but why were you beaten?
	What was the story as to why?
	What was the excuse or the reason?
	Like if I broke a ball or I went out to play and forgot about time and came home too late or talk back to my dad.
	Very small things.
	My dad has really bad temper and I think he has had an anger control problem that when he was seeing a bad mood, he would just find any reason to beat me.
	Sorry to interrupt, but did your father have a worse...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Some are beating, but a lot of is yelling.
	And my dad was very scary when he yelled at me.
	So all that was kind of a very bad memory to me.
	Right.
	And I'm so sorry.
	I mean, this is...
	It's terrible.
	It's terrible.
	I mean, screaming and beating...
	Yeah, it's pretty terrible.
	It's just horrible.
	I'm incredibly sorry that you...
	The interesting thing I find is how people start to realize it later.
	I didn't even think it's a problem while I was in my twenties.
	It's only when I was older.
	I got older and I thought about these things.
	And after I have my baby, I thought even more about these things.
	And while I was in my 20s, I was like, sure, after I have my children, I will beat them.
	What's the problem?
	I was beaten and I'm fine.
	I thought like that in my 20s.
	And it's interesting how people discover these things later.
	You would think the closer to the memory, The stronger you feel and the more soft about it you have.
	It's interesting that it comes to hit you later.
	Right.
	That's a very good point.
	Now I'm going to assume that you're not hitting your child, right?
	No, no, absolutely not.
	Good for you.
	Oh, that's so heroic.
	I'm going to assume that your culture is Chinese and While I'm certainly no expert, I do know a little bit about it and that's a huge step, right?
	It's a huge step that you're taking.
	And that's heroic, incredible, magnificent.
	If I could ship you a superhero costume that allowed you to fly and shoot webs from your earlobes, I would do that because that is incredible.
	That is incredible.
	And much more so than in the West, in the Chinese culture, aggression towards children is...
	Just norm.
	It's the norm, right?
	It's like taking your kids to gymnastics or something.
	It's just, this is what you do, right?
	So, like in the West, it's been sort of talked...
	So, no, go ahead.
	Oh, sorry.
	You can go ahead.
	I disrupt...
	No, no, please.
	It's your call.
	You go ahead.
	Okay, in China it's so common and the interesting thing is, I think nowadays with more knowledge around the internet, with a lot of educational articles and discoveries, people should realize that Beating children is bad.
	A lot of people, young people like me, when they were beaten as a child, they still think it's okay to sometimes spank your children.
	I don't know.
	I think it just takes time or certain people just don't acknowledge it.
	Well, it takes what you're doing.
	You know, like you have broken thousands of years of repetitive child abuse in one generation.
	Yes.
	I mean, you are where the river flows uphill.
	You are where the sun is out at nighttime and the moon is made of cheese.
	I mean, you are genuinely reversing thousands of years.
	I mean, and it probably is not even reversing because it's probably never been reversed before.
	Thousands of years of the repetitive abuse of children is stopping with you.
	But that's the revolution that this show is all about.
	And I just really wanted to incredibly commend you.
	I would kneel before you in embarrassing ways if you were here.
	That is how we do it.
	And what an incredible...
	I just really want to get and make clear what an incredible thing it is that you're doing.
	Now, if you have questions...
	No, go ahead.
	Yeah, after I have my baby, I just looked at her and I would think, how can I beat her?
	She's so little and everything she learns is from me.
	So...
	But the information I got from your show and my own research, I kind of understand the reason behind it.
	Yeah, I mean, look, obviously China has a huge history of totalitarianism.
	It's not just the 20th century.
	It goes back a long time.
	And in a totalitarian society, to not abuse your kids is almost to abuse your kids.
	So, I'm not comparing it exactly, but in North Korea, you have to get your children to conform to the crazy totalitarian society, or they're going to get shipped off to death camps, right?
	As non-conformists, as people who question.
	So, in a totalitarian regime, it is almost abusive, if not, it is abusive to not abuse your children.
	Like, you have to get them to conform.
	And if your parents grew up, again, I don't know how old you are, how old your parents are, but if they grew up in the totalitarian regimes of Mao and so on, I mean, that's, how are you supposed to get your kids to fit into a totalitarian society if you don't get them to be terrified of authority?
	But sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, you just mentioned that the time, that's exactly why my mom has her problem right now.
	I talked to her yesterday, mentioned all the suffer I had.
	This is the first time I told her that my childhood wasn't a very good memory for her, and she seems shocked, and she never thought that I would think this way.
	I mentioned that there's very minimal emotional communication between me and her, not like normal mother and daughter.
	And even now, I left home when I was 18, so for a long, long time we didn't spend much time together, maybe one week every year or even less.
	But just recently she moved to the States and lived with us.
	That's when all the problems occurred.
	So yeah, I talked to her and she didn't really I guess it's the first time she realized that I actually think this way and she didn't know that there is a need there of emotional communication.
	Yeah, connection, intimacy.
	Yeah.
	It's a lot of small things.
	For example, my mom would never speak straight her needs.
	Oh yeah.
	Like when we try to do something nice for her.
	She would always refuse.
	She refuses anything we offer to her.
	It doesn't matter if she actually wants it or not.
	Her first reaction is always no.
	For sure, but also, I mean, in a totalitarian regime, needs are very dangerous, right?
	Because you're supposed to be conforming to the collective and serving the proletariat bosses, right?
	So, again, not to say she's no personal responsibility, but there's a significant cultural totalitarianism.
	The dictatorships have significant...
	Cultural or familial impacts on people, right?
	So the fact that she would not express any needs or preferences when she grew up in a dictatorship is not too shocking.
	I mean, it would be a nice thing for her to try and change out of, but the fact that it's a habit is not too shocking, right?
	Yeah, she's 60 years old now, so I don't really expect her to change.
	But here's the question I really want to ask though, which is that, does she think that you should hit your child?
	No.
	But I asked her, should I hit my baby?
	She said, no, of course not.
	And I said, yeah, so she thinks I shouldn't hit my baby.
	And I asked her why.
	She said, well, of course, nowadays.
	Yeah.
	No, no.
	Nobody should hit my baby.
	So she says, nowadays...
	Oh, sorry.
	I cut you off at the end of that.
	She says, nowadays what?
	Nowadays?
	Yeah, nowadays.
	Yeah, she said, nowadays people are more educated with that and with more knowledge around, yes, it's bad to hit your child.
	She agreed.
	And did she ever apologize?
	Yeah, when I got hit when I was a child, that's a bit longer.
	A long time ago when I talked to her, she just found an excuse because everybody did so.
	But yesterday when I talked to her, Well, what's up?
	Wait, wait, wait.
	Was that an excuse you were allowed to have as a child?
	Like if you did something wrong and you said, well, no, but mommy, everyone else was doing it.
	What would she have said to you?
	No, she wouldn't.
	But she wasn't the one who beat me.
	It's my dad.
	No, no, no.
	No, no.
	She married your dad.
	She had a child with your dad and she permitted it to continue.
	She is as responsible as your father.
	So if you as a child had said, well, everyone else was doing whatever, if you were with a bunch of kids and they went and stole something from a store and then you got caught, right?
	And your mom was called and you said, well, no, but all the other kids were doing it too.
	What would she have said?
	I guess I wouldn't.
	I would never use that as an excuse.
	Because other people doing it doesn't mean you should do it.
	Of course.
	I don't care if other people are doing it.
	I don't care if other people are doing it.
	You have to think for yourself, right?
	If everyone else was jumping off the Great Wall of China, would you do that too?
	No.
	You think for yourself, right?
	It's not a good excuse to say everyone else was doing it, right?
	It's not.
	It's not.
	So yesterday when I talked to her, And we got a bit emotional, and I think she is aware how hurt I was from my childhood experience.
	And she did apologize.
	She did say, if that hurt you so much, I apologize.
	I mean, I'm not looking for excuse for her, but I do understand Her mind is so messed up with all the communist brainwash education and stuff that she couldn't think for herself.
	And it's kind of one of the problems I'm having with her now, that I think she's such a huge victim of that kind of I don't know how to say the brainwash from that time that she couldn't think for herself.
	She couldn't think independently.
	And it really, really makes me mad a lot of times that she still does things and says things in the same way that She was suffered from.
	For example, she would believe anything just random people tell her.
	And every time something like that happens, I got so mad I just couldn't control myself and I had to raise my voice and argue with her because This is something that ruined her life and sort of ruined my life too because I received 18 years of this terrible education in schools.
	And sometimes when I think about it, I felt so angry.
	So I just don't want to see her still doing the same thing.
	No, do you mean, sorry, I just want to make sure I understand.
	So, is it that your father said you need to be beaten, like you, Jen, need to be beaten, and then your mother would just agree?
	Is that why her compliance, her agreement with others is bothersome to you?
	Or is it something else?
	Um...
	They never had an agreement.
	My dad didn't say, hey, I'm going to beat her.
	Do you agree with me?
	He just came and beat me.
	And he was so violent that my mom tried to stop him every time this happened.
	And she couldn't because he was so much stronger.
	Is your father still alive?
	No, he passed away a couple of years ago.
	That's why I'm living together with my mom because I can't imagine living with my dad.
	Oh, right, yeah.
	I was going to say that I didn't think he was still in the picture, but I don't know if he died or was divorced.
	Yeah, he passed away.
	Yeah, so I'm trying to understand what is bothersome to you about your mom's...
	I'd say compliance or her agreement with what other people say.
	A lot of things.
	Like, she can't think for herself.
	She doesn't have any requirements and she doesn't have any...
	I would talk to her sometimes very rudely and I know when I talk to her, I know I was rude and I know I shouldn't be talking to her like that but I was mad and I was angry so sometimes I lost control and I would talk to her like that and I was waiting for her reaction.
	She could be very mad because I shouldn't be talking to her like that, but she just tolerates it.
	She says nothing and just completely takes it.
	And after I calm down and I feel so bad about myself and I still feel so bad at her, after a few hours when we met again, she can act like there's nothing happened.
	She could still smile at me and talk about other things.
	This kind of attitude just drove me crazy sometimes.
	Right.
	But do you know why?
	The question is, do you know why it drives you crazy?
	I mean, I get it.
	I do.
	People like that drive me crazy too.
	But the question is, why does it drive you crazy?
	I'm not saying it shouldn't drive you crazy.
	Maybe it should.
	just trying to understand why because to her tolerance to my bad attitude will only make me worse I think and And another thing is I don't get the right feedback from some person, I feel.
	You kind of expect a reaction to some person when you do something good or do something bad to them.
	But my mom, she just takes it all.
	And this will only make me worse, I feel.
	I feel she is dealing with me like the way she was dealing with my mom and dealing with all the people who hurt her in her life.
	I'm sorry to interrupt.
	You said you're dealing with you the way that she was dealing with your mom, but that is your mom, so you just may have meant something else.
	Oh no, I said she was dealing with me the same way she was dealing with my dad when they lived together.
	Oh, with your dad.
	Okay, got it.
	Sometimes I feel I'm turning into my dad around her and I was so scared of that thought.
	Yeah, passive people make you feel more aggressive, right?
	Right, right.
	And I just feel so bad.
	But sometimes I just lost my control, lost my temper around her.
	Because I don't do this to other people.
	Well, she was not here.
	I have a good relationship with my husband.
	I have a good relationship.
	I don't get so angry or aggressive with other people.
	I don't do this to my coworkers or strangers or my friends.
	But when my mom's here, around her I turn into this kind of person.
	And it really worries me because now I have a baby and I really don't want her to To grow up in any kind of intense or aggressive environment.
	So I figured this is some problem I have to fix.
	Right.
	Well, I agree.
	I agree.
	You don't want to be initiating aggression against other people, right?
	No, I don't.
	It makes me feel bad.
	Yeah, and you know what it's like to be on the receiving end of verbal abuse with your dad, right?
	So you don't want to be doing that too, right?
	No.
	No.
	And look, you've got reasons to be upset with your mom.
	I mean, you were beaten.
	She's supposed to be there to protect you.
	And so, you know, when you were a kid, you didn't know about Mao Zedong this and Zhou Enlai that, and you didn't know all about the history of Chinese totalitarianism.
	You just knew that the people who were supposed to protect you were involved in your beating, right?
	So it's your experience as a kid, right?
	Culturally, as an adult, you can look back and say, okay, well, I understand this.
	But, you know, even the kids in North Korea have a right to be pissed off at their parents because we cannot erase our childhood experience with our adult understanding.
	Because our original experience is of being violated and brutalized, if that's our experience of being beaten.
	So when I talk about understanding your mom's cultural context and the totalitarianism and so on, A, you already know that, and B, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't get angry at the situation because you were an innocent child, a dependent child.
	And you were beaten, and it was your mom's job to protect you.
	Now, socioeconomic, patriarchy, this, that, and the other, doesn't mean anything to you as a kid.
	All you know is you're supposed to be protected, and you're not being protected, you're actually being beaten.
	And from what little I've heard of, of Chinese dad beatings, I mean, they were serious, serious stuff, right?
	Like, I mean, that was a serious beating that you were getting, right?
	Yes.
	Like a no-holds-barred prize fight, awful, just with implements.
	I mean, it's terrible, terrible beatings.
	And your mom was supposed to protect you.
	So there's kind of two perspectives, and they're tough to reconcile, right?
	One is the understanding of the adult, and the other is the direct experience, the outrage of the child who knows nothing of history and culture and circumstance, right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	But, I will say this, and I don't, look, I don't have any big magic way to resolve that.
	I think you have to have both of those perspectives.
	Because if you get angry without the understanding of culture, then there's kind of an injustice.
	In other words, you're judging your mom as if she had all the knowledge and choice in the world when she didn't, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So my mom, as you may know, my mom grew up in Germany.
	She was born in 1937.
	The whole world was blowing up around her.
	She had a terrible, terrible time of it as a child, for sure.
	And it's my sympathy.
	It's why I've never pressed charges, because I get that.
	And that doesn't mean that I'm not angry.
	It doesn't mean that wrong was done to me.
	But I have enough of the understanding to say, okay, well, I'm not going to press charges.
	I'm not going to do any of that.
	So that's where my understanding has gotten me to.
	But I will say this, that I think you're looking to your mother to set limits on your behavior.
	Because you're saying, well, I'm mean to her, and then I say, Well, you should tell me to stop, right?
	I mean, I'm being mean to you.
	It's your job to tell me to stop, right?
	Well, it was her job, to some degree at least, to protect you as a child, and she didn't.
	So it's not going to start happening now.
	At least it's very unlikely, right?
	She's not going to start limiting your aggression any more than she was able to limit your father's aggression, right?
	Yes.
	That has something to do with her childhood experience.
	Absolutely.
	Yeah, she was so damaged as a child because she grew up during the Cultural Revolution and when she was a child she was divided into the bad group and she was not allowed to say or do anything and every time Everything she said would be used against her and would be interpreted in some
	evil way.
	They could always find excuses to get back to her.
	So she learned to suppress her feelings and just does things without talking or express her feelings.
	Yeah, everything that she said was used against her.
	So she says nothing, right?
	And she takes it all.
	Because you couldn't fight back in that situation because it was the party that was doing that, right?
	Yes.
	And I know that you choose to just not talk to your mom anymore, but I'm living with my mom and I couldn't just let her alone because I still love my mom.
	Your mom is not my mom, right?
	I mean, you're able to have rational conversations with her.
	So that was not the case with my mom.
	So I understand that.
	Again, my life is not a prescription for anyone's actions, right?
	I'm simply reminding people of possibilities that their culture doesn't remind them of.
	So if you want to continue to spend time with your mom, that's your choice.
	She's already committed to being gentle with your daughter, so that's a good step forward in my book.
	But I will say this, that you need to have your own standards of behavior.
	You cannot rely on your mom to manage your aggression.
	You have to have that standard yourself.
	You can't have a standard of ethics that says what I can get away with or what the other person will let me get away with.
	I assume you wouldn't steal something if you were pretty sure you wouldn't get caught, right?
	I mean, because you have this thing called I'm not going to steal stuff, right?
	I mean, most reasonable people do, right?
	So with regards to your mom, you are the one who has to say, I am not going to verbally aggress against my mom anymore.
	That doesn't mean don't get annoyed with her, don't get upset with her, don't get angry.
	I mean, I get annoyed, upset and angry with people in my life.
	But you have to have that standard for yourself.
	Not to let your mom get away with things, but it's to protect yourself.
	You hate that feeling afterwards, right?
	You said you feel terrible.
	Yes.
	So, stop making yourself feel terrible.
	You have to have the standard which says, I am not going to verbally aggress.
	I might have to count to ten.
	I might have to go for a walk.
	I might have to bite an orange in half.
	I might have to do anything.
	But I'm not going to verbally aggress against my mother.
	Okay.
	It's kind of hard to do on a daily basis.
	It is.
	It's hard.
	It's hard.
	I get it.
	I understand.
	I'm not saying do the easy thing.
	But you sure wish your dad had done that, right?
	That he'd had that standard.
	And you suffered a lot because he didn't have that standard.
	And you suffered a lot because your mom didn't have the standard for your dad to not do that.
	So don't recreate that suffering now when you have choices.
	Right?
	You don't have to yell at your mom.
	You don't have to call her names.
	You don't have to raise your voice at her.
	There's better ways to communicate if you're upset.
	You know that, right?
	Because you don't do that with your husband.
	You don't do that with your daughter, right?
	And if you're upset with your mom, which I can completely understand, you don't want to take it out on her.
	Because then you get the terrible feeling, which doesn't make you feel very proud.
	It doesn't make you feel very happy.
	And at some point, your daughter's going to see you doing it, and then how are you going to feel?
	Yeah.
	Not good, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	And how are you going to say to your daughter, don't raise your voice if she sees you doing it?
	I can't.
	Don't be mean.
	Yes.
	You can't.
	And your mom's living with you, so she's going to see you, right?
	Or she's going to hear it, or something, at some point.
	And that's going to be very tough for you as a mom, right?
	You need your daughter to worship you as a hero, right?
	And she really can't see anything that obviously flawed in you.
	That's going to make your job very tough as a mom, right?
	So I should really control myself.
	Well, are you doing wrong by dealing with your mom in this way?
	What's your conscience telling you?
	Well, by...
	Being verbally aggressive with her Not right It's not the right thing to do, right?
	I'm not saying she's not annoying.
	I'm not right.
	Yeah, you know you shouldn't do that, right?
	And I don't have any magic sauce that makes that easier other than to say it's really going to cost you in the long run if you keep doing that.
	It's going to cost you with your husband.
	I mean, your husband probably doesn't like it.
	Your mom sure doesn't like it.
	Your daughter is going to Lose some respect for you when, not if, but when she sees you doing that.
	So you just have to say to yourself, on the menu of my possible actions, I'm taking that off.
	That is no longer on the list of things I can do.
	And you just need to remind yourself and you need to sit down with your husband and you need to say, if you hear me starting to do this, please, please, please stop me.
	Yeah, he does that sometimes.
	He would get upset and tell me that I shouldn't talk like that to my mom.
	Well, to anyone, I hope.
	You could give her a little white flag.
	I was going to say red flag, but that's probably not the right association.
	But you can give her a little white flag and she can lift it when she's feeling alarmed by you, if she were to process that.
	But you just have to say, I can't do that.
	Like, that's not my standard of behavior.
	I cannot do that.
	Hmm.
	Okay.
	I'm better than that.
	I'm gonna overcome that.
	That's really breaking the cycle, right?
	And again, I'm not saying don't be annoyed with your mom, but just don't aggress against her.
	Especially if she's living with you and if she's helping you parent and all that, right?
	And again, I wish there was something easy I could say about how to do it, but you really just have to make that line in the sand and say, well, I can't do that, right?
	Because you're giving yourself permission to do that.
	At some point you say that's okay, that's fine, right?
	I don't know.
	I think around her...
	I can't really control my temper.
	No, come on.
	I think it's my problem.
	Come on.
	Of course you can.
	Of course you can.
	Look, if you were at a dinner party, could you do it?
	No.
	I would, yeah.
	Look, it's not like epilepsy.
	It's not like you have a seizure, right?
	I mean, I could understand that if you have a seizure.
	But if you were in a very public place with lots of people watching, you would control your behavior, right?
	So you can control it.
	It's just when you're in private, you give yourself more permission to do it than when you're in public, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so you just have to have the same standards in private that you have in public, right?
	which is called not being hypocritical, right?
	And if you genuinely can't, for whatever reason, if you simply can't, then you have to rethink whether your mom can live with you, in my opinion, right?
	Whether you do or don't, it's up to you.
	But don't put yourself in a situation where you're violating your own standards.
	Right?
	And if you genuinely, if your mom just keeps provoking you or keep whatever it is and you genuinely can't, then it may not be the healthiest thing to have her stay with you.
	But I hope and I know that you can find ways to interact with your mom that is not aggressive, right?
	or abusive.
	Because she's not going to change.
	You get that, right?
	She's 60.
	Yeah, I think I was trying to change her little by little.
	Yeah, but you also know she's not...
	I shouldn't expect that.
	But look, Chen, you know the problems in your mom came about because of aggression, verbal aggression.
	So you know for sure that you can't solve...
	The problems caused by verbal aggression with verbal aggression, right?
	Yes.
	Right.
	So you know for sure that if there is a way to change your mom, it sure as hell isn't the way you're doing it now, right?
	Yes.
	I think this verbal aggression thing is something I brought with me from my family, from when I lived with my parents.
	Because I was always in this tension with my dad.
	We always fight and use this kind of tone and word to talk to each other.
	And somehow her appearance kind of just brought me back to that environment.
	Yes, I completely understand that.
	I had to talk to her like that.
	Yeah.
	And I've no doubt that your mom is in a pattern of inviting that kind of behavior.
	I mean, that seems to me quite inevitable.
	Passive people will often end up provoking aggression in those around them.
	Right, like, as far as I understand it is that your mom has a lot of anger, but she can't express it, so she's passive-aggressive, she provokes anger in everyone around her, and then she gets to play the victim and not have to deal with her own anger.
	I mean, it's all a big, complicated mess, but in all of that mess, you still have to have your standards of behavior, right?
	Yes.
	And if you're angry at your mom, Talk about it directly.
	don't have it come out in reactive ways, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	How much do you not like what I'm saying?
	Which is fine.
	But you sound like you very much don't like what I'm saying.
	You understand I'm not taking her side and I'm not excusing what she was responsible for protecting you.
	Oh, I agree with what you said.
	And I totally think I should do whatever.
	I was just thinking about how hard it's going to be.
	Oh, I know.
	I know.
	I know.
	But, you know, if you can break your own cycle of verbal aggression, then you can get even more angry at your dad, right?
	But as long as you repeat it, that's going to block, right?
	Because at some level, as you said, you feel a little bit like him at times, right?
	Yes.
	Yeah, you don't want that either, right?
	I mean, he did you enormous harm.
	No, that's the most thing I'm trying to avoid is becoming a person, a parent like my dad.
	That's something I definitely want to avoid.
	And you're doing a great job with your daughter, but if your mom's going to be living with you, then you just need to keep that still at bay.
	And that's really the only advice I can give you is if this is your standard to not treat people that way, then it has to be universalized.
	And however that occurs, I think is important to pursue.
	And do you think people like my mom, I feel she...
	Yesterday when I talked to her and she talked about her past, she talked about what happened when she was a child and she cried and I just felt really bad for her.
	Somehow I felt our conversation opened the world of hers and I asked her, do you think about these things?
	What do you feel about these things now?
	Because I know even the damage to me was pretty minimum compared to her, but sometimes when I think about these things, I get pretty upset and angry and depressed, all that feelings.
	And I can't imagine if I was her and realized what all this done to me, just how upset I would be.
	So I asked her, How she felt about this, she said she tried not to think about it because it makes her unhappy to think about it and it hurts her head and stuff.
	So I was kind of worried if this And open her wound and she would suffer from it.
	I don't know.
	I feel like sometimes discovering the truth or doing this kind of thinking, it's probably not for everybody.
	I don't know if I should talk more to my mom about these things or try to avoid this kind of topic.
	I don't know what would make her feel better from my current...
	Mm-hmm.
	How long do you think she's going to live with you?
	Um.
	Until she dies?
	On and off, yes.
	Yeah, so, I mean, 20, 30 years could be, right?
	I think Chinese women are some of the longest-lived people on the planet.
	You know, you can't kill them.
	They just keep going like the energizer bunny, right?
	So...
	No, not so much Chinese.
	It's mostly Japanese.
	Oh, it's mostly Japanese.
	Okay.
	But...
	Yeah, Japanese.
	So either get her to take up smoking.
	No, I'm kidding.
	But what you need to do is if you have a value called honesty, then, you know, if you see her, as you used to say, you see her in your 20s maybe once a week, A week, maybe a year, right?
	Well, okay, but if she's going to be living with you for 10 or 20 or 30 years, then I think that's a long time to be avoiding stuff, right?
	And your mom survived communism and your dad, so she might be a tough old bird, right?
	I don't know.
	I think she's tough.
	I think she's pretty tough, but I don't know if I should be making this choice for her.
	If she doesn't want to talk about or think about these things, then I should probably not bring it up.
	Even though I think it's definitely beneficial for me, but at her age, maybe it's better for her to just Do her chores and watch TV and take care of the baby?
	I don't know.
	Well, it's the taking care of the baby that is the challenge, right?
	Because if she's just watching TV, that's one thing, but if she's taking care of your precious child, then I think some emotional connectivity, some, you know, that kind of stuff, right?
	You don't want your child to be growing up Feeling the same amount of irritation or to some degree of irritation and anger towards your mom that you do, right?
	So if she's going to be taking care of your child, then I think that some emotional resolution could be helpful.
	And if you can get closer to her over the course of your time together in the future, I mean, wouldn't that be for the best?
	I wouldn't give up on that chance is what I'm saying.
	It's up to her To let you know.
	And it's okay for you to be insistent on what you need.
	Doesn't mean you get to bully or boss or whatever, but you can be firm about what it is that you need.
	And if you could get closer to your mom in some way, shape or form, I think that'd be great.
	You know, ask her about her childhood.
	I always think it's fascinating to ask parents about their childhood.
	Yeah, but her childhood memories Just isn't that good.
	And the problem is that she didn't even realize how bad it is.
	But just keep asking.
	You know, you can spend a year talking to someone about their childhood and still be learning more, right?
	But if she realized how her childhood experience is actually bad, then that will just make her feel bad and feel upset.
	And I don't know, maybe she will feel depressed.
	Then that's a bigger problem.
	Well, I mean, I'm a truth guy.
	You know, I mean, I can't tell you what to do.
	I'm for truth.
	And knowing the truth about your mom's childhood...
	You can make up any scare stories about consequences, you know?
	Well, I'd like to go and drive to get some milk.
	Well, if I go and drive and I get hit by a truck, then I'll be dead.
	Okay, well, I guess I won't go and get any milk.
	Right?
	You can make up scare stories about anything that might happen and stop yourself from doing anything if you want, right?
	So, my approach is if I'm in a relationship with someone, I want to be connected.
	I want the truth.
	I don't want there to be distance.
	I don't want there to be avoidance.
	I don't want there to be topics we can't talk about.
	I just want to be connected.
	And I don't settle for less myself.
	I mean, you know, your choice is your choice.
	But if you're asking me, should I not pursue the truth with my mother because it might upset her?
	I would say that I would do it.
	I would pursue the truth.
	Because I think the truth is worth the upset.
	I think the truth is worth you not fighting with her in the way that you're fighting that makes you feel bad.
	I think the truth is worth that.
	I think the truth is worth getting depressed over.
	I think the truth is worth feeling scared over.
	I think that the truth is worth being upset over.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I understand.
	That's your choice.
	I'm just telling you, this is not truth like I can tell you two and two make four.
	This is a personal value thing.
	I think it's worth it.
	I mean, if you don't think it's worth it, that's your choice.
	I try not to self-censor because other people might get upset.
	Well, that's the whole point of this show, I guess, right?
	But I think until shown otherwise in a big, strong way, I would keep talking with your mom about stuff.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I did feel better after I talked to her.
	I don't know if she felt better.
	I hope so.
	Well, it may take her a long time.
	You're teaching her a new language, right?
	And if you were to teach her some new language, you would expect her to learn it slowly, right?
	It takes a long time to become good at a new language.
	Yeah, but it's worth it for 20 more years.
	Yeah, if she's going to be living with you for a long time, I would invest in the truth.
	It's going to make things a whole lot easier.
	And then it will give her the opportunity to have experienced some great truth in her life and someone who cares about her enough to really pursue the truth with her.
	And I think that's a great gift you can give her.
	All right.
	All right.
	Mm-hmm.
	Alright.
	Thank you for calling in.
	What an interesting call.
	Thank you.
	I hugely appreciate tough stuff to talk about and tough stuff to admit to, right?
	Like, you know, being mean to your mom.
	I mean, that's tough stuff to talk about.
	I hugely appreciate.
	That takes a lot of courage.
	And again, I really want to reiterate what an amazing thing it is you're doing with your daughter and kudos to your husband for Obviously, his being on board with that kind of stuff.
	And thank you.
	And if you get a chance to call again in the future, I'd love to hear how it's going.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Thanks for talking.
	And how do you feel?
	I feel good.
	I feel I'm more clear about my responsibility and what I should work on next.
	Okay, that's a good plan.
	And how do you feel?
	I feel good.
	Okay, good.
	All right.
	And thank you again.
	Listen, and I'm sorry for the other callers who have been waiting.
	I'm trying not to get too way off schedule, and it is crazy late for me.
	So I just wanted to mention to the other callers that I'm sorry I won't be able to get to more calls tonight.
	What have we been doing?
	Three hours and a bit.
	And it's only 10.30 here, but it's, what, 1.30 a.m.?
	Actually, 1.40 a.m., almost my time.
	And I'm trying not to get too off schedule.
	Otherwise, I'll be doomed when I get back.
	Yeah.
	Yes, thank you so much.
	Yeah, thank you so much for all the callers.
	Thank you.
	Great, great, great stuff.
	And you are a magnificent bunch of glorious bastards, I'm just telling you that right now.
	That's just, it is, as I've always said, it is an amazing and wonderful pleasure and an incredible honor, I feel.
	Always so deeply honored that people want to talk about important stuff in this conversation.
	That is glorious to me.
	I feel really honored at the trust that people show in what it is that we're talking about here, the trust in me.
	I try to earn it every show.
	I'm conscious of really trying to make sure that I earn it every show.
	And I really appreciate everyone who takes the time to call in and share the challenges that we all have in life.
	So I hugely appreciate it.
	If you'd like to help the show out, as usual, it's FDRURL.com forward slash donate.
	Much appreciated.
	I guess, Mike, are we doing a show?
	Are we doing a show Sunday?
	Yeah.
	The 5th and then I'm doing Joe Rogan.
	Yeah, Joe Rogan, I think, is 3 p.m.
	Pacific time.
	So that'd be 6 p.m.
	Eastern time.
	And I don't know.
	I think it's March in Singapore.
	I don't know.
	I'm not really good with content.
	But something like that.
	And so if you want to watch live, that would be a lot of fun.
	As I try to resist the urge to trade jokes with an excellent comedian.
	But...
	Anything else that we need to mention?
	No, I think that's it.
	Saturday, this coming Saturday on the 4th at 4pm, there's going to be a meetup in California where you are, and all the details for that are on the message board and your Facebook page.
	So if people are interested in attending that, just pop over there and take a look at the time and where we're having it.
	And thanks again, Mike.
	My spandex glitter-a-thon has arrived this morning, so I'm all set for the meetup.
	Thank you once more.
	As always, extra small.
	I consider that a personal challenge, which I'm looking forward to getting into.
	But yeah, thanks, everyone.
	Thanks, everyone.
	Are you pleased to see me?
	Or is that just a canoe in your card piece?
	All right.
	Well, thanks, everyone.

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