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Dec. 19, 2013 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

03:28:07

2563 Making Excuses for Evil People - Wednesday Call In Show December 18th, 2013

Dissociation and the healing powers of anger, showing up to do the work, unenforceable statist contract law, will Stefans daughter go to school, Canadian cell phone monopolies, making excuses for evil, what do parents owe their children and a discussion about the Walter Block debate.

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	Good evening, everybody.
	It's Stefan Molyneux from...
	Oh, what's that?
	Non-stop.
	Too many shows.
	Freedomain Radio.
	Hope you're doing well.
	Oh, my friends.
	It is December the 18th.
	Do you know what that means?
	Four years and 364 days ago, my boo, my baby angel cakelets, my schweetums, Isabella von Baby Cakes, Doth come out from her mother.
	What was the line I used?
	Gollum pushing his way out from between two pieces of liver.
	And she's going to be five tomorrow.
	And she is quite excited because she really understands orbits and age.
	Although, as she puts it, I am quite ambivalent about turning five daddy.
	I like to be small.
	But I also want to get bigger.
	So I think that's great.
	She's such a little Jane Austen character.
	She was saying to some adult the other day, in my experience, it is such and such a way.
	Or such and such a thing.
	And it's an amazing, amazing experience.
	And I highly recommend it.
	If you are so inclined, fatherhood is really, really magnificent, incredibly humbling.
	And I was trying to explain to her.
	I did a show with Lawrence Reed today where we talked about the welfare state.
	And she, of course, wants to know, tell me about the show, Daddy.
	Tell me from the very beginning.
	Tell me the very first thing and then the next thing.
	Oh, like in sequence!
	I got it!
	And trying to explain the welfare state to her and pointing out that some children cry because they're upset and then we try to make them feel better.
	And some children cry To get what they want.
	And she shot me that knowing look which says, I have sampled from either side of that platter, but I'm not going to tell you when or how.
	So yeah, I can't believe it.
	She is going to be the big five.
	And that really is quite something to me.
	It really doesn't feel like it's flown by.
	A lot of people say, oh, the childhood flies by!
	And I think that's because, like if you only see every 15th minute of a movie, the movie seems very quick.
	If you cut out most of the frames of a movie, the movie seems very quick.
	So I think for people, childhood flies by if they're mostly at work when it is going on.
	But it feels just right for me.
	Like just when I'm tired of the phase, the phase doth end.
	And that is, I guess, kind of how it's supposed to be.
	So...
	Anyway, happy Oma's birthday to my bootcakes.
	Thank you so much for being in my life.
	You are just a joy, a treat, and a treasure.
	And I really, really am honored to be your father, and I hope that I continue to do a job that is to Her Majesty's satisfaction.
	All right, I know we have quite a few callers today.
	Who's on first?
	Jeremy, you're up first today.
	Go ahead.
	How are you doing tonight?
	I'm well.
	How are you?
	Excellent.
	Thank you.
	My question is regarding my future.
	Recently, I acquired an AS degree just from a junior college, and I wanted to be a police officer.
	But then I tuned into your show and learned all...
	I'm sorry?
	A what degree?
	An AS degree.
	Associate in Science.
	It's a junior college degree.
	Associate in Science.
	Okay.
	I didn't know what it was, so I just wanted to be clear.
	And you were going to become a cop?
	Yes, I really wanted to help people and enforce laws, but after turning into your show, a switch flipped and I realized that's not what I want to do.
	I want to help people, not throw them in a cage to rot for doing the, quote, wrong thing.
	Wow, that's an amazing revelation.
	I certainly appreciate that the show may have had a hand in that.
	And what now, I guess, Jeremy?
	What now?
	I'm dealing with social pressure from everyone.
	Everyone just wants me to Just be a cog in some machine and work for the government, be a cop, do what I wanted to do.
	I honestly don't know what my life's calling is.
	I'm so confused at this point.
	I'm so terrified of the world and what tomorrow holds is nothing seems to be getting better anywhere.
	Do you have any advice?
	So you said life's calling.
	What is my life's calling?
	That's a challenging way to put it, right?
	Because it's almost like you're some fish, you're like some carp swimming in a stream, and life is putting down hooks.
	Which calling is going to catch me?
	It's kind of passive, if that makes any sense.
	Of course.
	And if you are not going to go with the current, then you need some strong swimming arms, right?
	And so the moment that you say to yourself, I'm not going into a conveyor belt, I'm not going to be just another brick in the wall, another link in the chain, another caboose on the choo-choo train of life, then you've got to start swimming like hell.
	You've got to start being very active and very much in pursuit of what it is that you want.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yes, it does.
	I know it doesn't help because, you know, okay, strong swimming arms, but where the hell am I supposed to go?
	So I know it doesn't help that much, but I just wanted to point out life's calling, life doesn't call you, right?
	There is no life out there to call you.
	You know, they used to say that about the priesthood, you know?
	I had a calling.
	I was called up.
	Many are called, few are chosen, bloody, bloody, blah.
	God picks people and elevates them to whatever.
	God has a plan for you.
	Life does not call you.
	Life couldn't give a shit whether you live or die.
	Life couldn't give a shit whether you are happy or sad.
	Life couldn't give a shit whether you achieve your bliss or you don't.
	So you really have to strap on the old jetpack of willpower and find what it is that you want to do.
	So let me ask you this.
	Is your problem that you don't have any idea what to do or that you don't have any idea how to make money doing what you want to do?
	That's a very good question.
	One more time, please.
	Let me ask it another way.
	Let me ask it another way.
	If you won the lottery tomorrow, what would you do for your life's work?
	I would find people that need the money and try to distribute to them as best I could.
	So you would set up a charity, is that right?
	Yeah, that sounds pretty fun actually.
	And why...
	So if that's your idea or your goal, how are you competent to do that?
	Because charity is a really, really tough thing.
	Like you want to help people, but...
	You know, charity is like morphine.
	You know, it's great if you need it, but it's highly addictive to a lot of people, right?
	And so how is it that you would be competent in making sure that you were helping people and not enabling bad behaviors, right?
	Um...
	I don't know, actually.
	Because everybody would come to you.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Everybody would come to you, right?
	Jeremy, they'd come and they'd say, help me, help me, help me.
	I need this, I need that.
	I've got a great business plan.
	I've got the next cure for cancer.
	My wife left me and my dog ate my house and if you give me a few bucks, I'm going to...
	Everybody would come to you with a sob story.
	Finding the genuinely needy cases among the grasping, open-beaked, starling babies of endless want is a challenge, right?
	So how would you know the difference?
	Common sense, case by case.
	I don't have a solid answer for you.
	It's like, how would you do something intelligently?
	Well, intelligently.
	That's a bit of a tautology there, right?
	So case by case, how would you decide, right?
	I wouldn't exactly know.
	I don't think I'd be the best business manager out there anyway.
	Right.
	And the reason I'm asking that is that if you want to be a charity, you don't need to win the lottery, right?
	If you want to be a charity, if you want to run a charity, then you can just say to people, give me money and I will do good with your money.
	And some people will do that, right?
	You can register as a charity.
	You can start to canvas stuff.
	You can do your Kickstarter thing.
	But if I'm going to give you money...
	I'm going to need to know how you are going to separate the deserving poor from the undeserving poor, right?
	From the people who genuinely need help to get Mac on their feet and the people who blew their money at the racetrack and are lying through their teeth, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	And that's why I'm not a business manager.
	I wouldn't know how to do that.
	Well, that's not exactly a business manager function, but...
	So, I mean, this is what I mean by in terms of like, okay, so if that's not something that you would feel particularly good at, and you wouldn't, you know, whether you blow your own money or other people's money, you certainly don't want to spend money enabling bad behavior.
	You want to spend it encouraging good behavior, which is, it's a challenge, right?
	And if you're not sure how to differentiate that, what else might you do if you won the lottery?
	I honestly wouldn't know.
	I don't really feel I need most money for my life.
	So I don't know what I do with it.
	Okay, so then the problem is that you don't feel like you have much to offer the world, right?
	Probably, yes.
	Well, tell me if I'm wrong, right?
	But if I said you've won the lottery, what are you going to do, right?
	And, I mean, if you were a great surgeon and you won the lottery, you might say, well, I would go travel to the third world fixing hair lips or performing appendectomies for free or whatever, right?
	Because you would have something to offer the world and winning the lottery would free you up to do that without considerations of profit, right?
	Yes.
	So if I say you've won the lottery, what do you do?
	And if you don't know what to do, what that means to me is that you don't feel that you have something the world needs.
	Is that fair?
	Or a fair assessment?
	That's very good.
	I would have to agree with that.
	The only thing I've ever thought I had to offer was a huge amount of self-control.
	That's why I wanted to be a cop, pretty much.
	I wanted to be in the fray when people needed to be calm and manage a situation.
	That's when I thought I could be there.
	But other than that, I can't think of one other damn thing I'm good at.
	And how do you know that's a virtue?
	Your ability to Keep your head.
	I'm not sure that is a virtue.
	Okay, good.
	That's good, right?
	Because that's an important thing to understand.
	Why do you think you have that ability?
	Oh, very easily.
	I was teasing when I was young, so I had to get used to it and just not care.
	I'm sorry, you were what when you were young?
	Teased, you know, called names, etc.
	Oh, you were teased when you were young.
	Yeah, I'm sorry about that.
	That's an underrated, horrendous experience.
	Most people are like, oh, well, you know, you could have been abused.
	And it's like, well, no, teasing is abuse.
	And in some ways, it leaves incredibly lasting damage.
	So you learned to not react to taunting, to hostility, to verbal put-downs, all that kind of stuff, right?
	Oh, yes.
	And why do you think you were teased?
	I was kind of a loser kid, I'd put it that way.
	The nerd.
	So you agree with them?
	Well, I think they had poor justification for why they picked me out of it, but it was still accurate that I was a nerd.
	Okay, let me ask you another question then.
	Why do you think you were a nerdy kid, as you describe yourself?
	Or the loser kid?
	I particularly enjoyed technology.
	Go on.
	I was fascinated with it, wanted to know how it worked.
	Wasn't interested in the majority of things other kids were interested in.
	Just being different.
	That's just not the answer.
	Could you phrase the question again?
	Thank you.
	Why do you think...
	You were the loser kid, as you call it yourself.
	Being interested in technology is not necessary.
	It doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be teased.
	Are you going at that they're calling me a loser?
	No, Steve Jobs was very interested in technology.
	He wasn't teased.
	Steve Jobs had one of the few fathers at the time, early 60s, late 50s, early 60s, I guess.
	Steve Jobs had one of the few fathers who didn't believe in spanking.
	So he got to be really interested in technology, but he didn't end up being teased.
	I probably acted in some way that made people target me out of the crowd.
	And why would you act in that way?
	Maybe how I was raised.
	I honestly don't know.
	Okay, so this is good.
	Now we're getting someplace useful, right?
	Okay, so how were you treated at home?
	A lot of fighting.
	My parents would argue all the time.
	Sorry, that's very imprecise.
	What does a lot of fighting mean?
	Do you mean verbal, physical, emotional, between you and your parents, siblings, parents, child?
	What are you talking about?
	Oh.
	I'll clear it up.
	So my dad would get home from his long day of work, and him and my mom would yell at each other all day long.
	And in the background, my brother would beat the crap out of me, and my parents would turn a blind eye because they're busy with each other.
	Right.
	Right, I'm incredibly sorry to hear that.
	That is a really shitty way to grow up.
	And it is shitty the degree to which the social predators attack the wounded, right?
	Oh, there's a limping gazelle!
	Bam!
	Let's tear his throat out.
	Weakness inflates predators.
	Abuse at home is like blood in the water for the sharks in society.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Do you mind if I share with you just how bad it was?
	I do not mind at all.
	So in the third grade, when someone had a birthday and the job everyone was to compliment that person or do something nice to them, And so in front of the entire class, I said, this woman had nice hair.
	Immediately, the entire class started laughing at me until I just left the room in tears.
	And it was completely destroying to my sense of, I guess, wanting to be nice to others and compliment others.
	And then I get home and get the exact same thing.
	It was pretty detrimental.
	Let me just make sure I understand that story.
	So you were at school, and how old were you?
	Third grade, so probably about eight.
	And who was the, you said a woman had nice hair?
	Who was the woman who had nice hair?
	Classmate.
	So a girl?
	Yeah.
	Well, you said a woman.
	Oh.
	Okay, a girl then.
	Very well.
	Yeah, which is interesting.
	But anyway, we'll maybe touch back on that again.
	So you said a girl had nice hair, and then everybody started laughing at you.
	Mm-hmm.
	And do you remember what any of the other kids said beforehand?
	Before I said it?
	No, yeah, before you said that, what were the other kids saying?
	You're a nice person, you know, simple things.
	You're good at drawing or something like that.
	Nothing too, I don't know, profound, maybe.
	Right.
	Right.
	And did you like the girl whose hair you liked?
	Did you like her as a potential kissy face person?
	Yes.
	Right.
	Which is probably what people were picking up on, right?
	Probably.
	Right.
	And did you ever talk about this with your parents?
	Oh, no.
	Oh, no.
	Why not?
	I can't relate to them in the slightest.
	They're nothing like me.
	That's very abstract.
	What would happen if you had talked to your parents about this?
	They'd probably tell me to get over it or...
	I'm sorry.
	Oh my god, really?
	So your parents who scream at each other every day are telling you to get over something?
	Oh yeah.
	Do you get that?
	It's kind of mental, right?
	Yeah.
	Oh, no, I know.
	All right.
	The generic man things, you just need to get over these things.
	Suck it up.
	Man up!
	Yep.
	Die so we can kill you.
	Right, okay.
	And was this fairly common, this kind of teasing?
	Oh yeah, definitely.
	Until about...
	Look, look, sorry.
	You have no emotional connection to this.
	I'm not sure why you're telling me this.
	You're like, oh yeah, oh absolutely, oh yeah.
	I don't...
	This is confusing and annoying to me.
	It doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong.
	I'm just telling you this confusing and annoying to me.
	Because you're telling me some really awful stuff, right?
	And you are completely disconnected from it.
	That's because I've...
	Don't even try.
	Don't even try telling me you've dealt with it.
	Don't even try.
	Don't even try.
	This is horrible stuff, right?
	I agree.
	You cannot connect with your parents.
	They're yelling.
	They're ignoring fights with your brother.
	You're humiliated in school.
	You're teased.
	You're called a loser, right?
	This is terrible stuff, right?
	I agree, yes.
	Am I the only one who notices that it's terrible?
	No, I've talked to my brothers at length about this, and they agree.
	No, I mean, in this conversation...
	Raise the question one more time, please.
	Are you bothered by anything that you're saying?
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, entirely.
	Okay, so why is that not coming across, do you think, in what you're saying?
	I'm a pretty monotone person.
	I just don't emote very well anymore.
	So you're saying that you are emotionally connected to it, but it's just somehow not coming across?
	Yes.
	And how do you know that you're emotionally connected to it?
	Because I feel the pain inside.
	I just don't express it.
	Do you feel it in this conversation?
	Oh yeah.
	Oh yes.
	And what does it feel like?
	Deep, dark pain.
	Shivering.
	And where do you experience it in your body?
	Localized around the chest.
	That's mostly where I feel a lot of pain.
	It's emotional.
	And what does it cost for you to connect with that in conversation with someone?
	Why is that not happening, do you think?
	I just have to say that I'm emotionally damaged.
	I was never really able to be emotional as a kid, so I never learned it.
	Maybe.
	Hmm.
	Well, I don't think children have to be taught emotion.
	Thank you.
	You know, babies try, right?
	They laugh.
	So I don't think kids need to be taught emotions.
	So I don't think you can say, well, I wasn't taught how to be emotional.
	Does that make sense?
	Oh, yes.
	So what else could it be?
	I honestly don't know.
	What do you think?
	Well, I think that you're still scared of being laughed at, right?
	Yeah, that's probably true.
	And you're scared of being rejected, right?
	So you talk about difficult things in a way that is confusing and off-putting to other people, right?
	Yeah, wow.
	Go on.
	Oh no, that's...
	I never thought of it.
	Wow.
	I mean this sympathetically, right?
	I hope you understand.
	It's not bad at all.
	I'm just...
	I mean, you asked me what I think.
	I think that's what I think.
	That sounds pretty accurate.
	It really does.
	Yeah, so what was your connection there?
	Because, again, I don't know you...
	As a person, I don't know the throughput of your life, so what was it that connected to you when I said that?
	About the rejection?
	Yeah.
	Because I ran it through my brain and it sounds completely correct.
	I can't take a lot of risks because I really, really don't...
	I hate no's.
	Right.
	You're not emotionally damaged in that way, right?
	You said you had trouble with emotions, so that click that you got, that connection that you got with something that I said, that feeling of truth, of insight, right?
	Of some plug going into the wall and energy going through it, that is an emotion.
	And you had that instantaneously, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So, your emotions are working fine?
	You know, that's a tap, you know, like you come out of some car accident and they put a pen up your sole of your foot and they say, can you feel that?
	Well, you felt it, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay.
	And it's gone again.
	Because now you're back to, mm-hmm, okay.
	I'm acknowledging you.
	Well, the people who laughed at you when you were a child, how do you think the people who laughed at you when you were a child, how do you think their I'd assume they wouldn't stop the behavior.
	But other than that, I have no idea.
	So statistically, about half of them are going to get divorced, right?
	Statistically, I don't know, are you from the US?
	Yes.
	Okay, so statistically, 80 to 90% of them are going to hit their own children, right?
	Statistically, the more economically successful they are, the more likely they are to put their kids in daycare.
	Most people's lives, statistically, are emotional ruins, emotional wrecks.
	People who get divorced get pretty badly broken.
	Doesn't mean that they can't ever fix themselves, maybe even come back stronger, but it's incredibly tough to go through.
	It is heartbreaking.
	For years, and if it's children involved, it's heartbreaking for decades, not to mention economically and legally highly dangerous, right?
	Getting divorced is like having an insane roommate and you can't move out, especially if there are kids involved, if not, right?
	Or as some comedian said, I'm not going to get married next time.
	I'm just going to find a woman I hate and buy her a house.
	So listen, vengeance is very, very important in life.
	I will tell you this straight from the gut or from two swinging castanets slightly lower down.
	Vengeance is very important in life.
	Do you know when people do you a lot of harm, I don't care who they are, but when people do you a lot of harm, we really want to fuck them up.
	Why?
	Because we're mammals.
	You know, try cornering a cat.
	Try cornering a rat.
	Try coming between a grizzly and her young.
	When people do us a lot of harm, we really want to fuck them up.
	That's what our fight and flight or freeze mechanism is for, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Now, when people do you a lot of harm, someone is going down, right?
	What I mean is, if people do you a lot of harm, someone is going to end up on the floor.
	Now, either that's going to be you, or that's going to be them.
	And I'm just talking in your own mind here, right?
	When people create a win-lose situation, either you lose or they lose.
	Right?
	And in your situation, the people who laughed at you, the people who were cruel to you, to your genuine expression of feeling and admiration for this girl's hair, which sounds unimportant, but it's not.
	It's really, really important.
	Their lives are going to be really, really horrible.
	Now, you sound like a young guy, so you haven't had this empirical experience, but I can tell you from this vantage point of probably being more than half done with my life, you know, I'm 47 years old.
	I'm more than half done.
	Hell, I mean, I just had cancer.
	I could be a hell of a lot more than half done.
	But I'm telling you, I'm telling you, the people who made you suffer will themselves suffer.
	And there's no God that makes that true.
	There's no devil that pokes pincers into their eyeballs or drops lava in their eyes.
	It is the conscience.
	Because we don't believe in religion so much anymore, we forget about the conscience.
	The conscience records everything you do and every cruelty that you inflict on others is magnified and placed upon yourself.
	So the kids who laughed at you, if they did not come and apologize to you later on, they will have their hearts go through The cheese grater pushed by the scaly hand of the demon of conscience until it is a puddle of broken meat on a factory floor.
	You don't need to lift a finger for vengeance to accrue to the wrongdoers.
	But it is really important to acknowledge the desire You know, there's this, in one of the Star Wars movies, I think it's the third one of the first series or something like that, Emperor Palpatine.
	Yes, use your hatred!
	Well, I believe in using your hatred.
	I really do.
	I believe in using your hatred.
	It doesn't mean to go out and harm people because you don't need to.
	But people get theirs.
	I've seen this enough times now to know that this is almost entirely an iron law.
	It will accrue through their children.
	It will accrue through their marriages.
	it will accrue in their business relationships.
	But I got to imagine that you got quite a hate on for the people who harmed you.
	Yeah, of course, of course I do.
	I just don't express it.
	Why not?
	Well, I tried to before, but I've been taught, shall we say, to not do that.
	Who taught you that?
	My parents, friends, school.
	Why did they teach you that?
	Forget about what people teach you.
	Always ask why they teach it to you.
	And I don't mean as a kid, right?
	I'm just talking about now.
	Why did they teach you that?
	Maybe they were taught the same way.
	No.
	No, look, I mean, I was taught lots of stupid things.
	I don't believe them anymore.
	So your belief system is not caused by what you were taught.
	taught.
	Otherwise, we'd all still be in the caves picking our asses with an antler.
	So why did they teach you not to get angry at people who did you harm?
	I don't know.
	Of course you do.
	Of course you do.
	Well, then help me.
	Well...
	Does the thief who's going to rob your store want you to have a surveillance camera or not?
	Most likely not.
	So, why doesn't the thief who wants to rob your store want you to have a video camera?
	So you can see what he did.
	Yeah.
	Doesn't want to get caught, right?
	Why would somebody be heavily invested in you not getting angry at wrongdoers?
	Because they themselves are wrongdoers.
	Right.
	See, I told you you knew.
	Why doesn't the Fed like you to counterfeit?
	Because they're counterfeiters.
	Why doesn't the government like you to kill?
	Because they're killers.
	Why doesn't it like you to steal?
	Because they're thieves, right?
	They don't like the competition.
	They don't like the evaluation.
	They don't want to get caught.
	Criminals don't want to get caught.
	Wrongdoers want to disarm the natural reaction of rage, right?
	See, it's not a whole lot of fun doing wrong to people who fight back, right?
	It's not a whole lot of fun doing wrong to children if those children get angry later on, right?
	And if people knew what they were doing, I just sort of believe this, like that all immorality is kind of like a lack of knowledge.
	But if people knew what they were doing, When they harmed children, when they made fun of other people, when they joined the crowd and put their boot into the groin of the kid with the spectacles, if they knew what they were doing to their own capacity for love and happiness and tenderness and vulnerability, I mean, you couldn't pay them enough to do it, right?
	How much money would have to be paid for me to hit my daughter or my wife?
	There is no amount of money in the world.
	That would even remotely tempt me to do that.
	because I know what the consequences are.
	So I ask myself, why are you disconnected from what you're saying?
	Why?
	And the answer is, Because there's one emotion that is missing from your narrative, right?
	And what do you think that is?
	Most likely anger.
	Right.
	And who benefits from you not being angry about wrongdoing?
	Those who do wrong against me.
	Right.
	Who in your life is currently benefiting from you not being angry about your history?
	Probably my parents.
	Right.
	My only concern in these kinds of conversations is reducing future abuse.
	I can't reduce past abuse because nobody has a time machine and it can't be done.
	My only major concern is reducing future abuse, right?
	Now, what you don't get angry at, you normalize, right?
	I don't get angry when it rains because it's kind of normal for it to rain, right?
	Now, if there's a little rain cloud just following me around, then I know the CIA is testing yet another secret weapon.
	I might get kind of pissed, right?
	But that which we do not get angry about, we normalize, and that which we normalize, we reproduce.
	Anger, outrage, vengeance, all of these supposed dark side of the force emotions.
	Anger prevents abuse.
	If you are not angry about having been mistreated, odds are you will mistreat others in turn.
	Anger is the outrage which says, no, this was not acceptable.
	No, this was wrong.
	No, this was immoral.
	It may have been evil.
	It stunk to high heaven.
	It is unacceptable.
	It is wretched.
	It is destructive.
	It was cowardly.
	And all who harm children are cowards, by definition.
	Wow.
	And if you...
	Can't be angry at having been abused, and you're still serving the abusers.
	You're still serving the needs of the abusers, and I sympathize with that.
	Kind of what we're programmed to do as children, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Now, I have brought this up with my parents before, and my mother kind of waved it off.
	She said she didn't abuse me at all and said it was better elsewhere.
	I tried to argue with her.
	I said, why would you circumcise me?
	Why would you yell in front of me?
	Why would you ignore...
	My brother beating me up.
	I mean, what were you doing?
	And every time she just waved it off as if it was nothing.
	No, she didn't wave it off as if it were nothing.
	She waved it off as if you were nothing.
	And she's taking a gamble, right?
	She's taking a gamble and the gamble is, oh, he'll probably drop it.
	He'll probably conform.
	He'll probably serve my wishes because that's what children are programmed to do.
	You know, it's funny.
	As kids, our whole lives were told to not do what comes naturally.
	Don't eat all that candy.
	I know it tastes good, but have this broccoli.
	Just because you want that toy, don't go and get it.
	Don't push that kid.
	Don't yell.
	Don't scream.
	Don't raise your voice.
	Don't dance.
	Don't talk in church.
	Don't jump in that puddle.
	Don't make a snow angel that's your good jacket.
	Don't splash in the shoes that aren't rubber.
	Right?
	No, you can't spend all day in your pajamas even though it's raining outside.
	Too much TV, too little reading, whatever, right?
	We're constantly told to not do what comes naturally.
	And I mean, some of that's fine.
	You know, I mean, I don't tell my daughter to not do stuff.
	We talk about consequences and all of that, right?
	But we're always told to not do what comes naturally.
	Well, conformity to parental desires comes naturally to children.
	And I suggest you should not do what comes naturally.
	Do you think I should just keep confronting her with this until she talks to me about it?
	I think that you're looking for a plan of action when I'm talking about the resurrection of an emotion.
	Self is not plan.
	Identity is not execution.
	The truth is not a roadmap, right?
	The world is round.
	Does that tell you where you want to go?
	No, it means that if you want to go somewhere, knowing the world is round is probably a pretty good idea to navigate by, right?
	But saying that the world is round doesn't tell you where you should go in the world.
	It just means that if you want to go somewhere, you'll actually be able to get there.
	Saying Alpha Centauri is 4.3 light years away doesn't tell you how to get there, or even if you should go, or even if it's important to you.
	It's just a fact, right?
	Now, the fact is that you were...
	Humiliated repeatedly.
	And the reason you were humiliated is you were cut off from parental support.
	Bullying means you were cut off from parental support.
	I have had so many conversations about this over the course of my life.
	It's ridiculous.
	This is not scientific.
	This is my universal experience.
	I have never known a child who was bullied Who was connected with the parent figure in a loving and positive manner.
	You see, what happens in the schoolyard has to happen in the crib first.
	It has to happen at home first.
	Everything that follows is the shadow cast by parental indifference and alienation and hostility And lack of bonding, lack of connection.
	That's everything that happens in life, in love, in society, in business, in the schoolyard, on airplanes, in wars.
	All of that is the shadow of people leaning over your crib with warm words, soft breaths, and smiles or yelling in the next room or watching TV downstairs.
	You see, children sense who is connected to parents.
	Who's connected to parents?
	Who's connected to parents?
	Ah!
	See there, there, that kid.
	That kid, lost in space.
	Adrift.
	No connection, no support.
	Separated from the herd, cut off from parental support.
	Bang!
	We're going to get him, right?
	Because what...
	Do children fear?
	If children knew that your parents were going to come and talk to them or go and talk to their parents, they'd pick on easier people, right?
	Uh-huh.
	Or if they knew your parents were going to go and talk to your principal and have you record stuff on your iPad and play it back and cause a big stink and a big fuss, they wouldn't bother, right?
	The bullies in the playground are in effect to the bullies at home.
	They can't possibly exist without parental indifference and alienation.
	And who the hell is your mom to tell you what is a bad experience for you or not?
	Literally, that's like you get a piece of cheesecake and you say, damn, Steph, this is great cheesecake.
	And I say, no, it's not.
	It's not great cheesecake for you.
	You're wrong.
	Who the fuck am I to tell you what is good and bad for you?
	If you had a bad experience, you know what?
	You had a bad experience.
	If you were scared, you know what?
	You were scared.
	Who the fuck am I to tell you what your experience is?
	That's why I always say to people in this show, in this conversation, this is what I think.
	Does it fit with you?
	Does it make sense to you?
	Does it resonate with you?
	Is that your experience?
	I tell people a million times, I don't want to tell you your experience.
	I tell them, this was my experience.
	I don't want to project that on you.
	I don't know what your experience is.
	Right?
	So when you go to your mom and you say, Mom, I had a bad experience.
	And she basically says, no, you didn't.
	That's mental.
	She has no right to tell you.
	I mean, it's insane to even have to say this.
	Mom, I'm sweaty.
	No, you're not.
	Mom, I'm sleepy.
	No, you're not.
	What?
	What?
	When you have an experience and other people say that you didn't, I'll tell you what they're saying.
	All they're saying is one simple, selfish little goddamn thing.
	When you say, I feel this, and someone else says, no, you don't, all they're saying is, oh, I'm sorry, your feelings are inconvenient to me.
	So I'm going to snap my fingers and make them go away.
	Because they make me...
	I don't want to talk about it.
	It makes me uncomfortable.
	It's not something I want to pursue or explore.
	And you understand, it's a complete continuation of exactly why you were teased to begin with.
	It's literally like I'm a waiter and I want a good tip.
	And I know I have a good tip if people really love their meal.
	I go over to people and I say, how was your meal?
	And they say, it was terrible.
	The burger was half frozen.
	The fries were cold.
	And I say, no, you loved it.
	What would they say to me?
	Are you insane?
	Are you mental?
	Yeah, like, what the fuck?
	Do you think that's going to get you a good tip?
	I know whether I enjoyed the goddamn meal, thank you very much.
	Don't tell me whether I enjoyed the meal.
	Somebody reviews a movie.
	Producer calls them up and says, oh, you were wrong.
	It was a great movie.
	I know you gave it one star, but you're wrong.
	You have to revise that.
	It's a five-star movie.
	A, don't tell me what my experience of the movie was.
	And B, you're obviously too self-interested to be objective about my experience.
	Right?
	Right?
	The waiter is going to tell you you had a good meal so he'll get a better tip, and the producer of the movie is going to say it was a five-star movie because more people will go and see it if it's praised, right?
	How comfortable is it for your mama to hear you say, I did not have a good experience at times as a child?
	I don't think she'd like that.
	Well, you know she doesn't like it because she's waving it away.
	Doesn't matter.
	Didn't happen.
	Doesn't matter.
	Even if it did happen, you had it better than most.
	There were kids in India, didn't they ever have a roof over their head?
	Yeah, because you see, she's so...
	Your mom, it's really quite admirable.
	She's so great at putting things in perspective.
	She's so great at being thankful for her blessings that I'm sure she never fought with your, oh, wait, no.
	No, I guess you said she screamed at your dad a lot, right?
	So your mom is not really good at putting things in perspective.
	So she's only putting things in perspective for you because it's convenient to her.
	And so your emotions are denied because they're inconvenient to her and I'm sure to others.
	And then you call this conversation up and you say, Steph, I don't know what I want to do.
	But of course you don't.
	How could you?
	Knowing what you want to do means that you have to have an identity.
	You have to have self-acceptance.
	You have to have passion.
	You have to have goals.
	You have to have ambitions.
	You have to have a community of people who believe in you.
	You know, Bill Gates, when he was first negotiating for DOS with IBM, was running in and out of the room on the phone with his father, who's a patent lawyer.
	Do you think that helps a little bit?
	Yeah, he had someone in his corner.
	It didn't come out of nowhere.
	Ooh, he's got an IQ of 160.
	Well, so do a lot of people.
	So, I think that a reclamation of the self is the goal.
	Now, what the hell does that mean?
	What a load of frou-frou, right?
	That and a side order of fries, right?
	But you need a reclamation of the self.
	Let me tell you, the only fundamental thing The only fundamental thing that I have found to be the reclamation of the self, which means to have an identity, right?
	Which is to take yourself very, very, very seriously.
	Take yourself very, very, very seriously.
	And what that means, if you're going to take yourself very seriously, that means take your experiences seriously, take your feelings seriously, take your anger seriously, your humiliation, your passions, your recoiling, your anger, everything.
	Take it seriously.
	You don't get any extra years for ghosting yourself, for turning yourself into a ghost, right?
	For conforming to people who don't fundamentally care about you.
	Your caring about people matters when it's uncomfortable to care about them, right?
	Caring about, you know, caring about someone who's giving you a blowjob, not that hard.
	Don't stop, right?
	Not that hard.
	Well, hopefully quite hard, but you know what I'm saying.
	But caring about people who has a big disagreement, that shows up when you have a big disagreement with someone, has a big disagreement with you, right?
	Now, when you start to take yourself seriously, Jeremy...
	It places great strain on people who don't take you seriously.
	You are a human being with depth, power, history, experience, unconscious, brilliance, connection, and mental powers that we're all only exploring still as human beings.
	We can do so much more with our brains.
	I'm still trying to find ways to do better things with my brains, and I've got a long way to go.
	How successful could I be doing what I'm doing if everyone around me thought it was bullshit and frivolous and nonsense and ridiculous?
	Not very far.
	No, I couldn't.
	How far could Bill Gates have gone in his career if when negotiating with IBM he'd called up his dad and his dad would say, oh, stop being ridiculous.
	You need to get a paper route.
	Click.
	He couldn't, right?
	His dad took him seriously.
	Right?
	His dad took him seriously.
	So when you start to take yourself seriously...
	You will push back.
	It's like an anti-gravity well.
	You will push away people who don't take you seriously.
	Because when we take someone seriously, it is almost always going to result in inconvenience for ourselves.
	If you don't take a diet seriously, does it ever really inconvenience you?
	No.
	Right?
	If you take a diet seriously, well then it's inconvenient.
	You gotta go buy the right food, you gotta change your habits, you gotta whatever, right?
	You take lung cancer seriously, you're gonna quit smoking.
	Frivolity begets frivolity, emptiness begets emptiness.
	So the reason why it's hard for you to take your experiences seriously, which is what I started this conversation talking about, is because you're surrounded by people who don't take you seriously.
	And so you have to start that gift to yourself.
	And anyone who takes themselves seriously is automatically one in 10,000.
	I mean, come on, you think the idiots painting themselves blue in sports theaters are taking themselves seriously?
	Do you think people joining up in the military to go shoot what they're pointed at are taking themselves seriously?
	Do you think people are dragging themselves to work, doing something they don't like, living with people they're indifferent to, having children they yell at, are they taking themselves seriously?
	No.
	They're giggling in an expiring helium way through the deflating bag of their empty lives.
	Take yourself seriously and you will automatically have something the world desperately needs, which is depth.
	and a refusal to self-erase because other people aren't there.
	Does that make any sense or help at all?
	Again, this is my sort of thoughts on it, but it only matters if it matters to you.
	That really resonates with me.
	That's really, really insightful.
	Wow.
	That's a lot to think about.
	Holy crap.
	And you call because of that, right?
	Look, I make fun of myself, and I'm not saying if you take yourself seriously, you can't ever smile or anything like that.
	Yeah, I mean, but, I mean, I take what I'm doing enormously seriously.
	And why not do that for you?
	You were wronged.
	You were wronged badly.
	Or, I guess you could say, expertly.
	I don't mean that's all you were.
	I'm sure some good stuff happened too, but you were wrong.
	And that is serious, serious stuff.
	And that doesn't mean you can't laugh again.
	It doesn't mean you can't have fun again.
	But take the harm that you experienced very seriously because I guarantee you, Jeremy, as a child, you took it pretty fucking seriously, right?
	When they laughed at you about the girl with nice hair, that is serious stuff.
	It's not frivolous.
	It's not silly.
	It's not nonsensical.
	It's not immature.
	That is serious stuff.
	When your mother says, it didn't happen, it doesn't matter, it's immaterial, kids had it worse.
	She is saying that in the current conversation, there is no part of me that can touch anything serious in you.
	In other words, there is no me and there is no you.
	There is only a manipulation of immediate comfort in the moment at the expense of who knows what.
	Well, for most parents and most people, the expense is nonexistent.
	You just conform and push it back down and go back to Sunday dinners, right?
	So they can do it because there's no cost, right?
	Yeah.
	You know, when James Cameron was directing Avatar, he said, "We are going for Oscars We are going to make the greatest film of all time.
	Anybody who's not on board with that should not sign up for the film.
	but we are going for the very greatest and best thing that we can create.
	And if people don't believe that you're capable of things, if people don't believe in the seriousness of what you have to offer, And seriousness doesn't mean...
	It doesn't mean...
	You can take comedy very seriously.
	Like, if you're going to be a comedian, you take it very seriously.
	I'm talking with Joe Rogan.
	He's like, yeah, half the day writing material.
	And, you know, he takes that job very seriously.
	And there's so many people around the world who will try to scrub any seriousness from your soul.
	And any soul from your body and just turn you into an...
	Empty little plastic cup of windy conformity.
	Life is too short.
	Some people are saying in the chatroom they didn't like Avatar.
	It's not the point.
	That's not the point.
	The point is not whether he made the best movie ever.
	He didn't, in my opinion.
	That's not the point.
	The point is that he took it seriously.
	That's all.
	So, anyway, I hope that helps, and I am very sorry for what happened.
	Thank you very much.
	You're very welcome, and do drop a line.
	Let me know how it goes.
	And certainly a therapist can help in these kinds of situations.
	All right, Mike, who do we have next?
	All right, David, go ahead.
	You're next, sir.
	Hey, Stephen.
	Hello David, how are you?
	Pretty painful at the moment, to be honest.
	Wow, I'm sorry to hear that.
	I just felt like I was almost dot point for dot point, the same experience as Jeremy.
	Oh yeah, me too.
	Oh, me too.
	I mean, let's make it about me again.
	Me!
	No, I mean, I get it.
	I mean, you know, I was not taught to have any depth or any...
	Right?
	Yeah, just listening.
	Cut a man off from his anger?
	You just made a slave.
	Anyway, go on.
	Yeah, I sort of came into this morning like an action plan as well.
	Like, I have a lot of social anxiety.
	Like, yesterday I was...
	On Wikipedia, I looked up avoidant personality disorder and everything on there described me.
	Oh, that webpage can be totally hard to find.
	Anyway, go on.
	Keeps moving!
	Yeah, and how do you form a habit of courage?
	I just feel like I'm living a life of fear.
	Right.
	Right.
	Why do you think that?
	Why do you think that's happening?
	Um...
	I don't know.
	I mean, I probably do.
	Have you ever listened to this show before?
	I can't believe people still cry.
	The three words that means I really want to have a more exciting philosophical conversation.
	The pretense to not know.
	I guess that's what I called.
	So I could have that bullcrap taken away.
	Right.
	Yeah, it's mostly like fear of people.
	Right, so we're describing the condition, but I asked why you think you have it.
	Because I was continuously I'm not sure if there was a question mark at the end there, but it sounds like there was half a Captain Hook.
	Is that a question?
	No, that's a statement.
	That's a statement, alright.
	And in what way were you bullied and humiliated as a child?
	I just remember from the ages of 6 to 12, my brother and this other friend that lives on our street, they would my brother and this other friend that lives on our street, they would sort of group up against me all the time and reject me and they just didn't like me and that was the
	Did that answer your question?
	Sort of.
	Layer one of nine.
	That's alright.
	We'll just attach a diamond drill bit and auger up again.
	So your brother would...
	Were you younger?
	I'm older.
	So your younger brother would reject you?
	Yeah.
	Huh.
	Interesting.
	Slightly off the beaten path of traditional sibling relationships.
	So your younger brother would reject you.
	What social cachet did he have?
	Was he really good looking, very sporty?
	I mean, did he know all the cool chicks?
	I mean, how did he have the social cachet to reject you?
	I guess he was just liked by that one other boy more than me.
	Right.
	And where do you think he learned this from?
	disbehavior.
	I mean, I know intellectually it's my parents, but I can't make a connection emotionally.
	He dutifully answered with the expected response, right?
	Okay, so no abduction by space aliens, alright.
	Alright, okay, so how did your parents...
	discipline you or deal with you when you were children, you and your brother? - Just like nagging and a bit of yelling.
	Most of it's just like humiliation.
	Okay, so your parents would humiliate you?
	Under what circumstances?
	What would bring that about?
	I just remember every day I'm home, my parents come home from work, they're angry and they take it out on me, all of us really.
	I guess it just infects us, so we replicate that behaviour.
	You're reading off a psych 101 text, but alright.
	Why do you think they were angry?
	What were they angry about?
	Disappointment with their shitty lives.
	Alright.
	In what ways were their life shitty?
	Um...
	I don't know.
	I'm sorry.
	I don't know.
	They pretend they're all happy, but their relationships are terrible and there's no depth there.
	Their relationship with each other was terrible?
	Yeah, like they...
	They almost had a divorce a few years ago.
	And what were their issues with each other?
	I really don't know.
	I don't talk to them that much.
	Really?
	Come on, you grew up in the household.
	You know, I get, you know, what's the capital of Timbuktu?
	You can get an I don't know, but if You lived in Timbuktu for 20 years.
	You don't get that one, right?
	I don't know, because my mom used to blame us.
	I don't know.
	I just feel really disconnected from it.
	Well, let me ask you this.
	Did they ever fight in front of you guys?
	Not much.
	All right.
	But when they did fight in front of you, what were they fighting about?
	No, it feels blocked in my head.
	Well, we can either try and break through the block, or you can call back at a time where you feel less blocked and feel more willing to work.
	I feel willing to work.
	You're not acting willing to work.
	And I don't mean this in a critical way, I'm just sort of pointing out, right?
	If you show up to the track meet smoking and in a three-piece suit, I assume you're not ready to run, right?
	What could be blocking me then?
	Well, I don't know, but the question is, do you want to get through the block?
	Yeah.
	Okay, then stop giving me I don't knows and not much and who knows and all that kind of stuff, right?
	I mean, if you want to work, then we'll work.
	If you don't want to work, that's totally fine.
	I can go on to the next caller, right?
	I'm not trying to be critical.
	I'm really not trying to make you feel bad.
	I'm just being pragmatic to the necessity of a live show, right?
	Yeah, dude, I get it.
	I think I probably should call back.
	Okay, if you feel more comfortable doing that, I'm happy to help you work through it if you want, but you'll have to dig in, or you're welcome to call back.
	Yeah, no, I can just say I'm not getting anywhere, so thanks for that.
	No problem at all.
	All right, Mike, who's next?
	All right, Orlando.
	Go ahead, Orlando.
	Okay, how are you doing, Stefan?
	I'm well.
	How are you doing?
	Good.
	I just want to let you know I really appreciate what you're doing.
	Oh, I appreciate that.
	Thank you very much.
	I had a question, but as I was doing more research, I think I kind of found the answers to my question because in my original email, I was asking about corporations because I was thinking about my retirement and I wanted to save for my retirement.
	At the time, the only thing I could think of was I had to start a 401, I had to start an IRA account and invest in these corporations and then be able to Build for retirement that way.
	But I think I have the answer to that question now.
	So I guess what I really wanted to talk about was what do you think about contracts and contract laws and that kind of thing?
	Could you be a tad more specific?
	Well...
	I'm starting to get into law and understanding law and understanding contract law specifically as it applies to my person, me.
	I know you had a background with your own business, having your own business and stuff like that.
	I just want to get your ideas on it as it pertains to the government and things.
	Well, okay, so I'll just give you a few thoughts on contracts, and hopefully it'll be somewhat of use.
	So the first thing to recognize about contracts is that they're virtually unenforceable.
	In the current system, they are virtually unenforceable.
	Contract law at the moment exists to allow large companies with an entire floor full of legal staff to threaten and bully smaller companies.
	Law, in particular contract law, exists at the moment as a rent-seeking advantage for larger corporations.
	In the same way that copyright does.
	And so you write something down, clearly there's no magic in the paper that's going to make anyone obey anything.
	And going to the government to attempt to enforce a contract is not wise.
	So I know a guy, no details whatsoever, but I know a guy who...
	Went to enforce a legitimate contract.
	He felt, and I believe him, that he had been shortchanged in a legitimate contract.
	And what happened was it dragged on for months.
	The lawyers racked up hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees.
	He ended up losing some suspicion that something happened.
	under the table occurred, and he ended up having to declare bankruptcy as a result of trying to enforce his contract.
	And I won't even get into more details, but I've heard so many countless stories of these kinds of situations where somebody's like, hey, I've been wronged.
	I'm going to go to the government to make my wrongs right because I pay taxes and there's a law system and there are courts and you basically just get sucked into this massive mafia clusterfrak of infinite billables until you literally bleed white and expire in the corner.
	So, knowing that the government is no better at enforcing contract law than it is at protecting your property or adjudicating divorce disputes or protecting children or maintaining peace in the world or anything like that, the recognition of that is that you really better do business with people you trust.
	I'm almost of the opinion now that if I have to have a contract, I'm not going to do it.
	Because I know that a contract is not enforceable.
	I know that there's...
	Not only is it not enforceable, but trying to enforce it will break you in two like a rotten twig under the left ass leg of Godzilla.
	And so if you feel the need for a contract with someone, then that is your unconscious saying, for God's sake, don't do it.
	Just don't be under any illusion that contracts...
	Can work.
	The only time I've ever successfully used any kind of government justice is one time when I put a deposit down on an apartment with the caveat that I needed to check with my girlfriend whether she'd want to live there.
	And the guy said, no problem, I'll give you the deposit back.
	And he ended up not giving me the deposit back.
	I took him to small claims court who made him cough up.
	And so that was, you know, but that's small claims court.
	I mean, the whole point of that is it doesn't adjudicate any significance in terms of contract.
	But...
	Yeah, the stuff I've seen in the business world, the stuff I've heard about from friends, contracts are worse than not enforceable because they give you the illusion of some kind of security.
	but trying to enforce a contract through the government legal system is just a recipe for emotional and financial suicide.
	Yeah.
	I guess the reason I was asking – Stop me if I sound bitter.
	Sorry.
	No, I think I understand what you're saying because I've read some material that was talking about that, and it was showing how – what the court system is doing – They're playing this game where They're trying...
	It's almost like a stage, almost like a Shakespearean...
	I don't know if Shakespeare is the right word, but like a Shakespearean type of play where you have the stage, and then there's a stage, and then everyone identifies which role they're going to act as, and then it's like just presumptions.
	That's why I keep hearing everybody talk about it.
	Yeah, I mean, it's all nonsense, right?
	I mean, there's a bunch of lawyers right now challenging Obamacare because Obamacare is only supposed to give subsidies to states that set up their own exchanges, according to the law.
	And I think 37 states have not set up their own exchanges and therefore should be ineligible for subsidies.
	And the guy who's prosecuting it says, like, in the 30 years I've practiced law, this is about a simpler case.
	Like, north is north, south is south, this is about a simpler case.
	They say, we're only going to subsidize the states that set up their own exchanges, and 37 of them didn't, and therefore there should be no subsidies going out.
	And the government lawyers are like, well, you know, it's all a bit of interpretation, and, you know, you could make the case for that, and sometimes people act in proxy, and if you look at the full context of law and so on, right?
	I mean, it's all just nonsense.
	I had an attempt to enforce some bad practices on the part of someone who was working with me, and the organization this person was working for mistakenly included something in Discovery to me, like in the stuff you have to release, where they said, oh yeah, this guy totally acted illegally, this was really badly done.
	Right?
	And I'm like, oh, I'm like, I got that.
	And I'm like, wow, okay.
	Because I was naive, right?
	I was young.
	I'm like, wow, okay, so this is an open and shut deal.
	Let's just go full hog, right?
	And my lawyer was like, well, you know, you never know what's going to happen when you get into that room.
	You never know.
	And I said, but you've got to be kidding me.
	This is an admission of criminal.
	Like, you've got to be kidding me.
	They've admitted that this guy broke the law, let alone, you know, didn't uphold the contract.
	And he's like, yeah, you know, that might help.
	And, you know, I was literally like, because I was naive, right?
	So, does that help just in terms of contracts?
	I mean, contracts in the Bitcoin environment, in a free society and so on, contracts, I think are going to be a lot more enforceable.
	But right now, the whole thing is a sham to give big companies power.
	And, of course, I mean, who writes the laws is lawyers.
	You know, people say, well, you know, the insurance company...
	The insurance companies wrote Obamacare and the pharmaceutical companies wrote the drug plan under Bush II and so on.
	But lawyers write the law.
	Right.
	So lawyers write the law and so who is it going to benefit?
	Lawyers.
	It's designed to benefit them.
	Yeah.
	Which means you know a few things about the law, right?
	I mean, even if you knew nothing, even if you were a space alien from another dimension, you would know, okay, lawyers write the law, so who's going to benefit lawyers?
	Well, how do lawyers make their money?
	Well, they make their money through billables, right?
	Through billable hours.
	And so you would want to design a legal system where things are going to take as long as humanly possible.
	You're going to create a legal system that is so Byzantine and complex that only lawyers will feel comfortable doing it.
	You know, like working within that, you will make it as uncertain as possible so that lawyers can spend even extra time, more time preparing defenses.
	And then you would make sure that there's an appeals process so lawyers can continue to bill and you would make it as adversarial as humanly possible.
	So that lawyers could start fights and keep them going in order to retain billables.
	And, you know, lo and behold, no miracle of miracles.
	That's how the legal system pretends to work.
	So, I mean, I think contracts are noble and honorable and fine things, but, you know, so is national defense.
	But that doesn't mean that you want 750 government military bases all over the world if you're an American citizen.
	And education is a fine thing, but government schools are not.
	And so the law, as it is just another government program written by law, is to profit lawyers and to benefit concentrations of economic power and to, you know, screw people who want to try and gain the illusion of justice through it.
	So, no, it's just unbelievably wretched.
	And unfortunately, people watch a lot of law on TV and...
	It's like trying to find a bill in House MD. You can't, right?
	And trying to find people who end up being broken in two financially because the lawyers can't get anything done or have no incentive to get anything done or resolved.
	You can't find that stuff on TV, right?
	Because, you know...
	The drama of reality is too painful for most people to listen to, and what you see on TV has about as much to do with law as Lord of the Rings has to do with the Middle Ages.
	That's my thoughts on it.
	Yeah, I think what I found out is a lot of what's going on in the court systems, what they show on TV is not really accurate to what's really going on.
	When you understand what's really going on, you realize it's just a show.
	It's just a game that they're playing where they're using presumption.
	They're trying to figure out who's going to act in a certain manner.
	And then once the roles have been...
	Once you set yourself...
	Once you stand in a certain role, then we can proceed with the show.
	And then you guys go about arguing and debating.
	Whereas if you don't know the positions where they're supposed to be, then you kind of run into problems.
	Yeah, no, I think that's fair.
	Was there any other questions you had?
	Well, that was it.
	Okay, good.
	Well, you know, what's good about it is without the illusion of this, you can make sure that you really do business.
	Mike, have you ever felt the need for a contract between us?
	Other than the sexual harassment stuff that you keep bringing up.
	All the time.
	That's in, please, more sexual harassment.
	And I'm like, no, I'm not that way inclined.
	Come on!
	I appreciate it.
	Thanks, man.
	I appreciate that.
	No, but we don't, right?
	I can't imagine.
	You don't do anything with contracts, right?
	I mean, we subcontract that all the time for a variety of services in the show.
	We got translation people.
	We got video people, music people.
	We got animation.
	I mean, we don't.
	We get people to do research for us and all that.
	We don't do contracts, right?
	No, everything's a handshake deal.
	Yeah.
	That's the way I like to work.
	It's far less complicated, and I don't want to work with people that I can't trust, like you said.
	No, no, and here I've got a five-page contract.
	Oh, so you're basically telling me to bend over right now, right?
	I don't like paper cuts back there, man.
	It's going to take me longer to actually read that contract and sign it and get it back to you than it is for the job to be done, for Pete's sakes, you know, in some cases.
	Yeah, and I think with very few exceptions, we've not Had any hugely problematic experiences, right?
	No.
	No, not at all.
	All right, but that's just something to remember.
	So, yeah, just find people you really trust and hold them close to your heart and virtue and insights are efficiency.
	So, that would be my suggestion.
	So, who's on next?
	Katie, you're up.
	Go ahead, Katie.
	Hi, Stefan.
	It's really good to talk to you.
	Good.
	Nice to chat with you, too.
	What's up?
	Well, I wanted to talk to you about your insights on how you actually would think education would work in a stateless society.
	Now, I'm a complete voluntarist.
	I'm completely on board with all the principles of anarchy, like especially non-aggression.
	So I definitely have my own ideas, but it's kind of exciting to talk about these things with other like-minded people because honestly, like, we don't know how it would work.
	It's kind of like a blank canvas that's just waiting for our creative solutions, and the possibilities are endless.
	So that's why I'm really excited to get this chance to ask you this question.
	I would imagine in a voluntary society, school would not be compulsory, which would be ideal.
	There would probably be more apprentice-based vocational opportunities Which would be great.
	I would hope there would be more homeschooling and unschooling happening with co-ops popping up all over, you know.
	And families could just use their would-be tax dollars as tuition at a school of their choice.
	But, I mean, those are just some of my ideas.
	I would love to hear yours as well.
	It's a great topic.
	I really appreciate you bringing it up.
	Well, I mean, I'll be annoying and ask a question, answer a question with a question, annoying and possibly just Emily Post downright rude, but what do you think education is for, right?
	So we, you know, what kind of tarmac should we put on the road?
	Well, what's the road going to be used for?
	You know, is it just a horse or is it an airplane?
	All right, so what do you think education is for?
	And then I think we can sort of figure out how it might be implemented.
	Yeah.
	That's a really good question.
	And it kind of touches on a sensitive topic because, oh God, don't hate me, but I am a public school teacher.
	I'm not.
	I don't think I'm as bad as what you've said in the past.
	But I do come along with a school that has tenure, unions, pension, and all that.
	Horrible, corrupt.
	I like that.
	I don't know if you know this old...
	You sound pretty young, right?
	But there's this old commercial.
	This woman says, don't hate me because I'm beautiful.
	We have the kind of show where it's like, don't hate me because I'm a public school teacher.
	In a Van Halen video.
	But anyway.
	I was kind of afraid about revealing that.
	But I feel like I'm...
	Since I've...
	Grasp on to these ideas.
	I want to leave that field in the future, which eventually I will do because I plan on...
	Wait, wait, wait.
	Field or job?
	Well, right now, it's a job.
	Yeah.
	No, what I mean is because leaving the field is like I'm not going to be a teacher at all.
	Leaving the job is like I'm not going to be a public school teacher.
	Leaving the job then.
	Okay, okay.
	So you might become a private school teacher or a tutor or something like that, right?
	Yeah, and since we plan on, I'm engaged right now and we are completely on board with homeschooling and unschooling and everything.
	I've done a lot of research on it and it sounds, it's great.
	So eventually I plan on going that route, which is teaching still.
	And the most meaningful kind of teaching there is, I think, which kind of ties into your question, what you think, like you were asking me what education should be, and really just...
	No, no, sorry.
	I said, no, no, my question was, what is education for?
	What is the purpose of education?
	Then we can figure out maybe what it should be.
	And I'm happy to take, you know, comments from the chat window, too, if other people have such a big topic that we can't possibly close it off, but go ahead.
	Right.
	Well, I know that what public school is now is not what it should be.
	You know, I've done a lot of reading on, like, with Gatto, and schools were basically built in the early 20th century to create good worker bees and factories.
	And I mean, still, it really hasn't changed much.
	You know, They're taught to obey and be good employees.
	It's kind of weird being completely on board with the anarchy thing and being a public school teacher.
	I know I'm not going to be in the field much longer, so it's kind of fun toying with the idea of how I'm going to handle that.
	I don't know.
	Thinking I should just release a couple of blogs or videos and see how long it takes to get fired or maybe go really radical and start talking to my kids about these topics.
	Who knows what would happen?
	So, I mean, I'm definitely not going to stay in this field.
	And that was actually going to be my question to you is, you know, I'm an anarchist and a teacher.
	What do I do?
	But I already know what you're going to say.
	You're going to tell me to quit my job.
	Wait, wait, wait, Katie, Katie, Katie.
	Why are you not answering my question?
	I've asked it three times now.
	What is the purpose of education?
	You are a good filibuster, but you still must try and answer my question.
	The purpose of education?
	You mean public education or just education in general?
	No, no, no.
	The purpose of education.
	Not public school education to create drones and patriots and sports fans, but no, the purpose of education, what is it for?
	What is it for?
	In a free system, in an ideal system.
	Okay, to make each person the best person that they can possibly be.
	Basically to facilitate them living up to their potential.
	That's what I think.
	In whatever system...
	Well, no, but I mean, you got to have something specific to education because a coach would say that about sports training, right?
	And a nutritionist would say that about food and all that, right?
	So the best, you know, that's not very specific, right?
	It has to be something specific to education and not everything else where you could be number one at, right?
	Okay.
	So...
	Basically...
	Superlatives and adjectives.
	Sorry, what I'm saying is superlatives and adjectives aren't much of a definition.
	Right.
	I don't know if I can answer that question very well.
	Basically, I think education should just be to expand their minds and help them live up to their potential.
	I don't know if I'm answering that.
	I mean, I think that, yeah, I mean, it's really tough to answer, right?
	Because you're sort of saying, you know, what's the best cheesecake?
	Well, the best cheesecake is the one that tastes the best.
	Okay, well, how do we make it taste the best?
	Well, we use the best ingredients.
	It's like using the word best here isn't actually adding too much of our knowledge, right?
	So, I mean, I would say that the purpose of education is to solve knowledge deficiencies, right?
	To To solve problems that knowledge can solve, right?
	Okay, yeah.
	We have a huge problem with this collective health.
	Let me ask you a question.
	Is there any subject when you were in school that you weren't really good at?
	I guess maybe.
	I try to be good at everything, but I guess English, maybe.
	So you weren't that good at English, is that right?
	I got B pluses and I wanted A's, basically.
	You got B pluses.
	All right.
	So you were an apple polisher, Keena.
	Good for you.
	That's fantastic.
	I mean, for me, it was math.
	I wasn't really good at math.
	Didn't really like math and all that.
	And I tried.
	I tried taking grade 11 math twice because I felt I was always getting my 52% and just scraping by and all that.
	But I never liked it and I've never ended up using it.
	And I knew from when I was a little kid that I just didn't really like math.
	And I knew I really liked language, like English and writing and reading and all that.
	And I knew I really liked science and I, you know, didn't really care that much about geography.
	And do you know how little of that has changed?
	I mean, it's basically the same when I'm 47 that it was when I was six or seven.
	And one of the things that happens with schools as they are now, this is both public and private schools, is that the individual skills, abilities and preferences of the children simply cannot change.
	Be accommodated.
	Right?
	So I can't say, well, look, I don't really like math.
	Because I still have to keep taking it for the next 12 years.
	Even though I don't really like it.
	People say, well, it'll come in helpful and so on.
	But the reality is it never actually did come in that helpful.
	I mean, all the math that I've used throughout most of my life, I learned before I was seven years old.
	Exactly.
	Wait, can I add something right now?
	Yeah, yeah.
	All right.
	I am a math teacher.
	I'm a special ed math teacher.
	And I agree with you completely.
	I have to teach algebra to these high school juniors and I work at a tech school and I would love nothing more than to just teach them what math comes up in their technical or vocational field organically.
	I would love that.
	What math would actually be relevant to them in their field and also in real life.
	We have all these top-down standards placed on us.
	We have to teach, you know, Algebra 1 and we have to teach to this test and that test.
	And it's horrible.
	Like, it gets harder and harder to lie every day.
	And it also gets discouraging because I get these kids that can't do two times three.
	How does that happen?
	They're a high school junior.
	How can they not know their multiplication facts?
	And that really caused me to lose faith in public education and Yeah.
	I don't know.
	I just had to add that in there.
	No, no, that's fair.
	I mean, I remember being in a guidance counselor and saying, I don't like math.
	And he sort of gestured me to a poster behind him and said, these are all the professions that you can't do if you don't know math.
	And it would be like, accountant, tax lawyer, math teacher.
	And I'm like, ooh, I think I'd rather dig ditches than do any of that shit.
	So this is not much of a sell for me.
	I'm sorry?
	Yeah.
	And what you said about the math you need to know, you learn before you're seven years old.
	I can't agree with you more on that.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I mean, honestly, when was the last time I used the opposite angle theorem or the triangle inequality relations or whatever it was, right?
	I mean, it just doesn't come up in my life.
	Now, I did do some math.
	You know, I did some fairly math-intensive stuff when I was In the business world.
	But I just learned what I mean, then I had purpose.
	I learned it.
	And, you know, I didn't have to spend 12 years.
	It's relevant.
	Yeah, it's relevant to your life.
	You're motivated to learn it.
	I know.
	I know.
	But so, yeah, and I'm also being paid to learn it.
	So my motivation is, you know, I'm getting paid, baby.
	And that that can do a lot.
	So.
	So, yeah, so to me, the purpose of education is I have a particular problem to solve.
	And how am I going to solve it?
	Now, there's two forms to that.
	One form is, here's the answer, which is fine.
	And the other is, here's how to find answers in general.
	Now, the most important education is learning how to think and learning how to find information.
	I mean, if you learn how to think but don't have information, you're like Plato.
	And if you learn how to get information without knowing how to think, then you're like a platypus just going off sense data, right?
	So you want to learn how to think and you want to learn how to get information because you can think you know how to...
	Process it, right?
	So, I study huge amounts of things for this show, right?
	I mean, there's almost no topic we don't touch on at some point or another.
	I was talking with Mike earlier today, like, what can we do that's new?
	And it's like, you know, I really don't know.
	Because, you know, in a lot of same stuff, you know, a lot of stuff, you know, 3,000 shows, it's like, what can we do that's new?
	It's an interesting question, right?
	So, I talk tomorrow to Noam Chomsky.
	That's new.
	I guess that'll be nice, but...
	But I have a problem to solve, which is I like money.
	And in order to get money, I need to be an enjoyable person to listen to.
	I need to have information that doesn't make people roll their eyes like they've heard it a million times before.
	I need to have some reasonable standards of scholarship wherein I'm not making a huge number of errors in what it is that I'm putting forward.
	And so all of these are problems that I solve as I go forward.
	So my education has a purpose.
	I like the knowledge.
	For its own sake, absolutely.
	And I find it valuable.
	And I was doing, you know, gathering lots of knowledge before I did a show like this.
	But I do like having a purpose to what I'm doing.
	You know, so I was studying objectivism.
	It was helping with my life.
	It would help me sort of understand the world.
	It would help me make better decisions and so on.
	And so to me, education is not an abstract program of jumping through hoops and getting gold stars and stuff.
	It's like, oh, you have a problem to solve, and this is how you can go about solving it as you go about solving it.
	And some of those problems are technical, and some of those problems is, who should I marry?
	Who will be a good mom to my children if I want children?
	Should I enter into a contract with someone?
	These are all problems to be solved.
	And I think that's this huge amount that education can help with that.
	But to me, it is a precise problem-solving mechanism that hopefully can be internalized as quickly as possible by the recipient so that we don't just sit there like faces squashed into a sardine can having endless irrelevant facts drilled at us for no purpose whatsoever.
	Right.
	Right.
	So, I mean, in a voluntary society, what would your wish be?
	What would your perfect vision be for education?
	Like, just a lot of self-driven education using the internet or technology or whatever resources they have available?
	Or, like, what do you think?
	Because, I mean, you never technically answered my question either.
	Well, no, because I was answering my question.
	But how it will play out is...
	In the course of being exposed to things, children will get stuck.
	And there will be people around them to help them get over the humps and teach them how you get over humps in general.
	Right?
	So my daughter likes Dragonvale, which is this little game on...
	I don't even know what to call it.
	It's like a bizarre kind of icon farming.
	I don't know exactly how to explain it other than you breed dragons.
	Dragon porn, I think, was the original name, but it was considered to be not very kid-friendly.
	But...
	So she's got some problems and we try and figure out how to help her solve them, right?
	It's like, oh, do I have enough money for this?
	Well, let me show you.
	I can give you the answer, like yes or no, but what does that teach her?
	Not much, right?
	Other than go to daddy.
	So, you know, we'll count out stuff and we'll see how it works and all that.
	And, you know, do I have enough space to build a dragon habitat here?
	Well, let's try build it, see if we can find it.
	Can we move stuff around?
	Can we make room?
	Whatever.
	I don't want to bore you with all the game details.
	But there she's got something she wants to do.
	Right, you facilitate it.
	Yeah, and so I want to teach her that she has a goal and knowledge facilitates the achievement of her goal.
	But I don't want to teach her knowledge for the sake of knowledge.
	I consider that very bad for the brain.
	It's sort of like going through the phone book and memorizing phone numbers.
	Yeah.
	You know, sorry, nobody knows what a phone book is anymore.
	Imagine if the internet had to be printed out and stuck in the bottom of your closet, right?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	You know, if you just go around memorizing stuff, you know, I had a girlfriend once who was Zoroastrian, and when she was in school, they had to remember all of the principalities that ruled, there were like hundreds of them that ruled India in the Middle Ages.
	They had to be able to draw, I remember having to do this too, had to be able to draw...
	The Anglo-Saxon provinces in the early Middle Ages in England and so on.
	What the fuck was the point of that?
	In hindsight, what the hell did that teach me about anything other than here's how to draw stuff on a map?
	I've never used it.
	It will never be helpful in any way, shape, or form.
	It didn't teach me anything about the modern world.
	It didn't teach me anything about how to analyze information or think or anything like that.
	And so, to me, I want...
	I want education to be like the rocket because you want to go to the moon.
	You want to go to the moon, you need a rocket.
	And whatever it is that you want to do, knowledge will facilitate that.
	I'm sorry?
	And I just said education is how you get there, whatever road you take.
	You might not need any math.
	You might need limited math.
	You might need a lot of research, writing, whatever.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I agree.
	Yeah, so, you know, should I put my kid in daycare or should I stay home?
	This is an important question.
	What should decide that question?
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Oh, no, I was just going to ask you.
	It's kind of a personal question.
	You don't have to answer it by any means.
	But I was just kind of curious how you're planning.
	I know, Isabella, she's turning five tomorrow.
	I just found out from the beginning of the show.
	I know.
	I clearly am going to wake her up at 12.01 by playing Happy Birthday on a kazoo really loud by her ear.
	But anyway, go on.
	Well, I was just kind of curious how you're going to handle education with her.
	Are you planning on enrolling her in some kind of Montessori school or are you going to homeschool on school?
	I would just love to know what you're planning on doing in your personal life.
	You don't have to answer it.
	I was just kind of curious.
	No, listen, look, I'm constantly grilling people about their personal lives.
	I'm sorry.
	You see, Katie, we try not to bring personal issues into this show, so I'm afraid that's off topic.
	No, it's perfectly fair.
	My God, everyone can ask me anything.
	Look, I'm an open book because I certainly encourage that in the caller.
	And I can see the public school in you coming out because you're assuming it's my decision.
	It's more her decision.
	Yeah, she has offered that she might go to school when she's 10.
	That's her latest offer.
	Oh!
	But she is showing no interest at all in school.
	So you're following her lead?
	Yeah, I don't, you know...
	If I could prove to her that school was really better for her...
	You know, like vegetables over strychnine or something.
	You know, like if I could prove to her, then I could sit down and make the case for her.
	Right?
	But better would have to include her happiness, right?
	So let's say that, well, you know, if you go to school, then you'd be reading by now.
	Well, she is actually reading.
	I mean, she's got, I don't know, she probably does.
	Yeah, she can read.
	I mean...
	She still occasionally will guess at which point.
	We have this thing in my house.
	This is how much fun education can be.
	I don't know how this started exactly, but if she told a lie, my hand spiders would eat her knees.
	That's what happened.
	Until she learned that she could shoot lightning bolts.
	From her fingertips to try and get the hand spiders to not eat her knees.
	And now when she tries to read, we have guess spiders.
	In other words, if she looks at a word and gets the first letter and then guesses the rest, then the guess spiders try to eat her knees, in which case the lightning bolts and fire and all that has to come out to combat them and so on.
	And it can just be an enormous amount of fun to do that kind of stuff.
	So, yeah, she can read.
	She will occasionally tempt the guest spiders with her delectable kneecaps, but for the most part, she can read.
	Now, if I were to say to her, well, you could read a lot better if you were in school or whatever, right?
	Or, you know, if we read for six hours a day, you'd be fully fluent by now or something like that.
	Then she would quite rightly basically ask me, well, how is that going to make me happier?
	Which is, you know, important.
	I mean, philosophy is important to me and the purpose of philosophy is happiness, right?
	So even if I were to say to her, well, you'd know math better, you'd be better at geography, you would know, I mean, she knows the history of First and Second World War, she knows Europe, she knows what an atom is, I mean, she knows the solar system, she's really, you know, because we...
	She asks me about shows and then I bring out the paper or the tablet and we draw everything that's happening and all that.
	So she's learning like a Cracker Barrel as it is.
	But I would have to answer her the question, how would this make her happier?
	I can answer that question about sugar versus non-sugared food, right?
	You know, like your poops will be out, you could get diabetes, your teeth will be hurt and so on, right?
	I mean, I don't mean if she has too much sugar kind of thing, which I also have to remind myself sometimes because I've got a bit of a sweet tooth.
	So I can make that case to her.
	I can make the case to her as to why going to bed a little earlier is probably a good idea.
	You know, she's cranky, she might get a headache, but she sometimes does if she's up too late.
	You know, and it's going to be kind of boring for you because I haven't talked to her mom all day, so I want to talk to mama, so it's going to be kind of dull.
	And, you know, your brain needs sleep to grow, and I've sort of shown her some of the diagrams and some of the stuff you can find online.
	So I can make that case to her, and she will, you know, grudgingly occasionally accept that case.
	I don't know how to make the case to her that she will be happier going to school because she knows that she's happy at home.
	She knows she's happy in my company or in her mom's company or both.
	And I can't say to her with a straight face, you will be happier if you are away from me for seven hours a day.
	How could I be a good dad and kind of say that?
	It wouldn't make any sense.
	I know I'm fun, but you know what's really fun?
	School.
	It's like, well, I'm really not that much fun if school is a good competitor for me.
	Yeah.
	I love that you're focusing so much on happiness.
	I think that's really important.
	It actually kind of, it reminds me of a John Lennon quote.
	I forget exactly how it goes.
	Some school teacher asks him what he wants to be when he grows up.
	And his mom always said, you should be happy.
	And so, you know, and he agreed.
	And so he wrote happy.
	By his own accord.
	And the teacher said, no, no, no, no.
	You didn't understand the question.
	And he said, well, you don't understand life.
	And I just love that quote.
	And what you just said completely just reminded me of that quote.
	So that's kind of off topic, but I wanted to mention that.
	So that's cool.
	That's really good.
	And you'll have to tell her, I said happy birthday.
	And I hope you still talk to her about what you talk about.
	About call-in shows, because I think that's really important too.
	So I remember you saying that like a couple shows ago that you've been talking to Isabella about, you know, your calls and stuff.
	So that's cool.
	Can I just ask you one more question?
	Yes, of course.
	Okay.
	Wait, was that it?
	Well, I already mentioned that...
	Just kidding, go on.
	Sorry, what's that?
	You said, could I ask you one more question, but you meant two, right?
	Yeah.
	Oh, he's so annoying to be precise.
	But anyway, go ahead.
	Well, I already mentioned that I wanted to leave the public education field at least in a couple years when I have kids.
	But I'm kind of weighing the options on quitting now or staying in the field because I do feel like there is some value in staying because you can make the best of it.
	All public school teachers really aren't evil.
	I know that's a hard sell based on what you see on the news.
	Wait, come on.
	Come on, be fair.
	Have I ever said all public school teachers are evil?
	Well, no, but you've maybe implied it a little bit.
	Oh, the implication word.
	If I read between the lines, if I look for the code words, no, I don't think I have ever said or implied that all public school teachers are evil.
	Look, if I genuinely believed that you were an evil person, do you think we'd be having this conversation?
	Not at all.
	No, and I don't believe that.
	I don't believe that.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, after all, I do think there is some value in staying because I feel like I am in a position where I can have a positive impact on kids' lives.
	You know, I can definitely model the non-aggression principle through peaceful teaching by not yelling, which is what they're so used to.
	And it's really how they behave nowadays.
	It's kind of sad.
	Like, they don't You know, stop talking unless they're screamed at, which is really sad.
	And I'm trying to break that mold.
	So I'm trying to model that through peaceful teaching, not threatening them, really listening to them and asking them questions because I feel like they don't get that at home.
	Both parents are working or whatever.
	And I feel like school is bad enough as the overall big idea.
	I feel like it could be even worse if they had an authoritarian teacher.
	I mean, so I would just love to hear what you think about that, like quitting now and using my time more productively versus staying in there kind of as like, I don't know if mole is the right word or just being a good human being for these young people to talk to.
	I don't know.
	I would just...
	Love to know your perspective on that.
	I mean, I feel like it's better having me as a teacher than some lefty status kook that they could replace me with if I leave, you know what I mean?
	So, I don't know.
	What do you think?
	Yeah, I don't know that there's an easy answer, but I think that I want to try and offer you a perspective that doesn't, I mean, no one can tell you what to do, right?
	I mean, we're all just trying to survive in the system that we have.
	So I can't give you an answer, right?
	Because you're not directly using force or anything.
	But I will tell you this, though, that if they see you as a virtuous person, which I'm sure you try to be, and I'm sure you succeed in being to the degree that you can in the classroom, the concern that I always have is that people will then confuse your virtue for the virtue of the system.
	Yeah.
	Right, and I'm not saying that I want this for kids, but if all the teachers were nasty people, I'm not saying they are, but I'm not saying that I'd want that, but if that were the case, then telling them that the system is bad is more believable?
	Yeah.
	To take an extreme example, which I'm not putting you in the same moral category, If there are a bunch of really nice, generous, kind slave owners, it becomes harder to end slavery in a way?
	Yeah.
	I mean, that's a really good point.
	And so you are, I mean, yeah.
	But, you know, that's to be balanced by the fact that it's a lot nicer for them to be in your class than I'm sure in some banshee shriek fest next door.
	But there is a kind of hidden cost to providing people kindness in...
	A nasty environment because it kind of confuses them about what needs to change.
	Because then what?
	They're going to get older and say, well, you know, we need to have more teachers like Katie.
	I mean, she was in the system, so the system can't be all bad.
	So we just try and get more teachers like Katie and blah, blah, blah, right?
	The idea of changing the system as a whole may be less believable to them, which is necessary.
	Yeah, that's a really good point.
	And definitely leaves me with something great to think about.
	And your kids, I can already imagine, are extremely lucky.
	So, good for you.
	Thank you, Seven.
	That means a lot.
	Oh, no.
	I'm still looking forward to coming back as the kid of half my listeners because it's a pretty good place to be, I'm sure.
	Good for you.
	And yeah, keep me posted about how it goes if you get a chance.
	And, you know, kudos for the good that you're doing in there.
	But it is a complicated, and this is why it's really tough to answer.
	You know, if you said, Steph, should I go strangle a hobo?
	I'd say, well, no.
	No, not really.
	But this one is more of a challenge.
	So there are costs that can be a little bit more subtle.
	At the same time, of course, you don't want kids to have bad experiences, so it's complicated.
	Well, I appreciate your input and I wish you luck with your endeavors and with your family.
	And again, tell her I said happy birthday and continue to talk about these important things with her.
	Well, you know that if I tell her this though, I guarantee you she's going to ask you out for coffee.
	I could take a 10-hour road trip.
	No problem.
	I would love to.
	Coffee is good.
	Coffee is good.
	And a tea party.
	But anyway, thanks very much, Katie.
	I appreciate your call.
	Alright, thank you.
	Alright, next we're going to try Kurt again via phone.
	So while we're getting him queued up via phone, I just want to point out that we've had 1.5 million video views on YouTube in the last 30 days.
	1.5 million.
	Not bad.
	Not bad at all.
	It just feels 100,000 less than 1.6 million.
	That's the only thing that I'm really...
	We have this thing going where, hey, the show's been successful, and I immediately move the goalpost.
	So now that it's massively efficient, it's like, if it's not 1.7 million, I'm going to throw myself out the window next month.
	Anyway, no, it's great.
	It is really great.
	1.5 million video views.
	And look, that's just the stuff we track, right?
	I mean, there's been tons of mirroring and the shows we do on other people's channels that they post, and that's stuff that people post on non-YouTube videos and all that.
	It's fantastic.
	And yeah, the podcast is great.
	And you know what?
	Kurt's phone isn't working, so we're going to go straight to George.
	Go ahead, George.
	Hey, Stefan.
	How's it going?
	I wanted to talk about Canada, believe it or not.
	You're from Canada, right?
	I live in Canada.
	I'm from Ireland, but I live in Canada.
	Okay, yeah, it's relevant that you live there.
	I mean, it doesn't matter where you're from.
	But I don't live in Canada, but I talk to people who live in Canada and usually about free market stuff and they, it seems like, never fails to go to...
	To Rogers and Bell.
	They just always go straight for that monopoly, oligopoly type of stuff.
	And I try to tell them about how oligopoly and monopolies, they can't really work in a free market, but they're not wrong to bring up Rogers and Bell because Like I go and I look it up and I find like many articles and stuff that says that it is indeed a problem in Canada.
	Their phone service is like the price is high or whatever.
	And so I want to get your thoughts on that.
	Like what do you think is going on in Canada?
	Well I mean it's CRTC right?
	So I mean the Canadian Radio and Telecommunications Commission or something like that and you know it's a forward-looking organization while it still includes the word radio as its central communications medium.
	But it's the usual crap.
	I mean, the government has to approve mergers and it has to approve foreign companies coming in to do business.
	And Rogers and Bell have a lot of political clout.
	And Bell used to have one of these monopolies where I remember when I was younger, having a long-distance relationship, you might as well cut out your own kidney with a penknife and send it off to Bell because it was just crazy expensive to have a long-distance relationship because phone calls were so pricey and so on.
	So it's just the usual crap that people mistake these guys for the free market, right?
	And people, they're so smashed up by propaganda, they can't even think, right?
	So people are like, oh man, my cell phone bill is so expensive.
	Well, so the logical thing to do then is to say, man, I should really get into the cell phone business.
	I mean, my goodness, there's so much profit in it, right?
	That's what would happen in the free market, right?
	So it is...
	Oh yeah, somebody just pointed out that I call mine Free Domain Radio.
	In the title, it's not being forward-looking.
	That I did not quite pick up on.
	That is very funny.
	That is very funny.
	But it doesn't include the word freedom.
	That's very funny.
	Yeah, it's funny because I never even did radio for the first couple of years.
	It doesn't make any sense at all.
	But hey, we're stuck with what you got.
	But still, mine wasn't put out.
	I think the Canadian one came in in the 50s or 60s or something like that.
	Good one, Christophe.
	Anyway, so yeah, it's the usual stuff.
	And then people say, well, I should get into the cell phone business.
	And then, you know, I'm sure people would imagine, okay, well, I'll go do a bit of research.
	They find out, oh my goodness, here is all of the stuff I have to go through to try and get into the cell phone business.
	I've got to get the government to approve stuff.
	I've got to go through this regulatory board.
	I've got to get this license.
	I've got to get all this government crap, right?
	And then they say, okay, well, it's like the healthcare in the US. People say, When Obama says, I can reduce your health care by $3,500 in a year, and it's like, well, why doesn't he just start a business and charge $3,500 less if we can still make money doing it?
	I mean, it'd be fantastic.
	Anyway, so it is...
	It's just, you know, they think it's a free market thing, and the government loves that, right?
	I mean, the governments are getting smarter over time, and they love having the shopkeepers between the citizens and the government, because then the citizens get all pissed off at the shopkeepers and let the government off the hook, so...
	So, are you saying that the government restrictions in Canada are worse than in America?
	Oh yes, no doubt.
	Yeah, because America went through, they had the AT&T and they broke it up.
	The AT&T used to be a virtual monopoly in the US. I think it was in the 80s that they broke it up into what's called the Baby Bells and so on.
	They started some really heavy competition going on in the US and some of that has happened here in Canada.
	Like we have voice over IP now and you have a couple of options for internet service providers and so on.
	But for a long time, Bell in Canada was a quasi- I did business with Bell in the 90s as a company.
	And yeah, it was a very, very pretty strict and, you know, pretty paramilitary kind of organization.
	And yeah, restrictions on telecommunications in Canada are much higher than they are in the U.S. Oh, well, I don't know that because, like, when I think of, like, laws and stuff that, like, even for my own country to find out what laws are in my own country, like, I have no idea.
	Like, how am I supposed to know about all these stupid laws?
	Like, it's difficult to find out.
	So, you know, I just don't know how to find out that sort of thing.
	So that's why, you know.
	Well, that's usually a good way to tell, which is anytime you're afraid to open a bill, there's rent-seeking monopolies using government power at your expense, you know.
	Hmm.
	When I order at a restaurant, I don't sit there and say, oh my god, $11 for a burger and fries?
	Oh, I can't.
	Oh, it's horrible.
	Because restaurants are pretty competitive, right?
	But anytime it's just like, oh, I'm afraid to open my cell phone bill.
	It's like, oh, I don't want to.
	You know.
	Anytime you're just afraid of the envelope or afraid of the email with your bill attached to it or anytime you get the bill and it's like, The fuck can it be this much, right?
	Which I go through on a fairly regular basis.
	Then you just know there's just, you know, state-sucking corporate toadies rent-seeking at your expense.
	Hmm.
	I only bring up this thing because it seems really important to Canadians and they always talk about it.
	I couldn't find this out on my own just doing the research so I just want it out there.
	I want people to know about it.
	People listening.
	This is the reason.
	I want that information out there so people can get it.
	What do you want them to get though?
	Like, what is the main reason for the high prices in Canada for the cell phone bills?
	That's the question.
	So that's why I want it out there.
	And why do you want them to know that?
	So that they won't keep blaming it on the cell phone companies when it is not, if that's the answer to the question.
	Okay, so the idea is to not confuse that for the free market, right?
	Yeah.
	Like, I don't want people to think that government is the solution, which is like when I read articles, that's all they talk about.
	It's just like, oh, there isn't enough government oversight on this particular thing.
	That's the reason.
	So we need more government oversight.
	Like, I don't want that to be in the minds of the people because then you get, you know, the perpetual government like coming to save the day when they're the problem, you know?
	Oh yeah, no.
	I mean, just say, well, you can ask people, what oversight does the government have already?
	And if they don't know, then they are not knowledgeable and shouldn't talk about stuff, right?
	That's a good point.
	That's why I'm asking the question.
	Yeah, just, you know, libertarians, you can go a long way.
	And I try to remind myself, God knows I'm not perfect, right?
	I'm a chatterbox head, but But generally, I would, you know, say, okay, oh, so you think that you need more government regulation.
	Well, how much government regulation is there already, right?
	You know, like, I don't want the blind guy putting a ladle of jam saying you need more jam.
	It's like, how much jam is there already?
	And all of that kind of stuff.
	And it is, most people, they don't have a clue.
	I mean, most people, they don't have a clue.
	They're just saying something that they heard somewhere.
	Or that's, oh yeah, I've heard that regulation is good.
	They always say, you don't want the dog-eat-dog, unregulated free market, right?
	It's like, what does that mean?
	You don't want the unregulated dating market or marriage market, you know?
	You don't want unregulated sexual partners.
	It's like, I kind of do.
	I really, really kind of do want an unregulated market where I can choose.
	You don't want your choice of restaurants to be dog-eat-dog unregulated, right?
	It's like, well, I don't want to eat a dog, I know that, so I won't go to a restaurant that serves one, but I kind of do want things to be unregulated in my life.
	I kind of appreciate being able to choose my own wife and my own friends and my own profession, so yeah.
	Unregulated is uncoerced.
	I'm a big fan of that.
	But it is just one of these keywords.
	And then people have just heard that a lot.
	And because of the way they're raised, they just think, well, without parents, kids just run wild and blah, blah, blah.
	This is where we need regulation and all that kind of stuff.
	Do you know where to find this sort of information?
	Like where to find like...
	How many regulations are in a particular market?
	Or is that like a huge thing that is too difficult to figure out?
	No.
	I think it's...
	I think that you can find it.
	I mean, a useful way to do it is you can just do CRTC Libertarian.
	And then what you'll find is Libertarian critiques of the CRTC. And they usually will have done...
	You can go to Reason.com or Mises.org or Mises.ca.
	And you just do a search for libertarian and then some topic.
	And, you know, it may not be the final answer.
	It probably isn't.
	But at least we'll give you some counterbalance to what's in the mainstream.
	All right.
	Well, thank you for answering my question.
	You're very welcome.
	All right.
	Eric.
	Go ahead, Eric.
	You're up next.
	Hi, Stefan.
	I am calling in today mostly by...
	Just to say that your show really touches me.
	I came across it I think last month and you know I was abused pretty badly and I hear you helping people that call in that have been abused and I just want to thank you for that first and foremost.
	You're welcome.
	You're doing great.
	Thank you.
	It's brought a tear to my eye on more than one occasion, to be honest.
	Now, I've come a really long way myself, and the thing that I've noticed, and I guess what I would ask for help with today, is that if I'm climbing this mountain of overcoming abuse and the challenges of the Sikh society, I've pretty much reached The top, and I'm looking around, and there's nobody.
	I mean, there's very few people.
	I know a couple people who are pretty well-adjusted or awake or whatnot, and it's difficult.
	It's difficult having friends when people are more or less asleep, wanting to talk about things that are intelligent, And not getting anywhere with that.
	I mean, talking about, let's say, some genetic condition or something, people will just tune out.
	And I'm wondering, is this part of the abuse that I suffered?
	And I guess I'd probably have to give you some details about that.
	Or is this just what it's like growing up in this world where everything's so messed up?
	It's a great question.
	It's obviously a very important question.
	I'm certainly happy to hear more about what happened to you as a child, which I'm obviously sorry in advance.
	But I just want to make sure I understand the question more particularly.
	Do you mean that when you talk about the trauma that you've experienced, that people tune out of that?
	Or is it a wider topic that you're concerned about?
	Well, I mean, trauma, sure, people would turn out.
	That's a good example, but it's like, if I go for conversation with depth most of the time, I cannot find anyone to keep up.
	And I guess to talk about some of the abuse, I have to preface it with something that I found out in the past few years, and I'm pretty well recovered, and I know that there's going to be a lot of things that I say that happened, and you're going to say that it's horrible, and I agree it's horrible, but I'm pretty good with where I'm at right now, so I don't feel...
	If I had not suffered, I would not have become as sensitive as I am.
	If I had not had these things...
	To deal with, I wouldn't have been taking myself as seriously as I do, like you were talking with the caller earlier.
	So in a way, I see it as somewhat of a gift, but let's get to some of the abuse.
	I had a mother who was probably psychotic or sociopathic.
	She spanked me.
	There was yelling, of course.
	I was circumcised.
	There was a period of time where I didn't want to get the vaccines that they were giving to me.
	I'm 38 now, so this is around 75 I was born.
	So in the early 70s when the vaccines had lots of heavy metals in them.
	So she took me to the mental hospital where she worked and had me strapped down to a table so they could give me the vaccines.
	I was probably four.
	She would leave me places for a long time, let me run loose in a mall-like place in a dangerous part of where I grew up.
	She divorced my father for almost no reason, married a man who was hitting me two times before she actually had the marriage, like in the month or two that they were dating.
	Yeah, hit me.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	It'll never happen again.
	Hit me again.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	And then all of a sudden, I'm walking to give her away at the wedding as a 10-year-old.
	Yeah.
	I mean, it's crazy.
	They moved me out of schools.
	I was...
	Well, hang on, hang on.
	So, you know I'm stopping you now, right?
	Okay, go.
	Well, you're starting to laugh, right?
	I have an idea what's coming.
	Of course.
	And it's not critical.
	I'm not criticizing at all, right?
	I'm just...
	You're talking about some...
	Your mom married a guy who was hitting you.
	Yeah, yeah.
	That's pretty ugly stuff, right?
	Well, it shows her the depth of her sickness that she would do that.
	Well, can't she just be evil?
	Now, here's the thing.
	I've come to learn through recent years and through my recovery that in my family there's a genetic trait or a genetic marker that Neutrogenomic testing is what I'm referring to.
	And it's relatively new and not well known, but there are many doctors who do it.
	It's prevalent in the work of autism with Dr.
	Amy Yasco.
	And so there's a genetic disorder In our family that has long-term problems with, let's say, heart disease, but overall it will make the person more susceptible to a fungal infection or viral infection such as Candida or Epstein-Barr.
	which can both have effects on the mood and it also does some things with GABA and glutamate cycles in the body where I'm sure I've lost a lot of people so I'll just say that GABA is a relaxing neurotransmitter and glutamine is a stimulatory one and if your body can't make The GABA,
	you will go into relentless biomechanical overdrive, and a lot of the attention deficit disorder diagnoses, which I was diagnosed with and given Ritalin for a long time, are related to this type of function.
	I can't say all of them, but I think a lot of them are.
	She was untreated, and I know that she had the coating on the tongue from the candida, And also chronic fatigue or A.K.A. Epstein-Barr.
	So she had a lot of things that were weighing her down.
	Now, I'm not trying to excuse her, but I know from my own personal experience that when I've had problems with these issues and I've been not as nice a person and when I am feeling better and have this genetic predisposition under control, I'm much more myself.
	However, I've never done the horrible things.
	So I'm definitely not excusing her.
	But I do feel sorry for her.
	Well, sorry.
	No, technically, that is exactly what you're doing.
	And you may be right.
	I mean, I'm no doctor, right?
	But...
	You certainly are excusing her because when I talked about immorality, you talked about medical issues.
	Sure, yeah.
	That it could be genetic that she married a man who hit her son.
	Well, no, these things can affect her mental...
	Can affect a person's mental stability heavily.
	So it could contribute to her poor decisions.
	You know, guilt can also do that too.
	Oh, and guilt was huge because they raised me as Catholic.
	But, I mean, that never really sunk in.
	That never really fooled me.
	And I knew it was bullshit by the time I was in high school.
	No, no, sorry.
	I don't mean Catholic guilt.
	I don't mean imaginary guilt for Adam and Eve.
	I'm talking about if you mistreat children...
	Then it makes you feel bad about yourself.
	It makes you feel guilty, which can make you irritable.
	Gosh, you know, I think she might also be a bit of a sociopath.
	Which, again, is a great word, and I'm not, you know, whatever, right?
	But that also generally means kind of evil, right?
	Yeah.
	And I've tried to keep her in my life, and this is what I like about your show, and you're the only person I've ever come in contact that actually, except my last two therapists, agreed with me.
	So maybe people are coming around.
	But it was about 30 or so, and I had gone back to school and finished my degree, and my stepfather and family were there to celebrate.
	And my stepfather, who had had a habit of pointing knives in my face as a child at, say, Thanksgiving or Christmas or any time...
	Sorry, just interrupt.
	Is the stepfather, is this the man who hit you before your mom got married?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Now you realize you're starting to laugh again, right?
	I laugh because I can't imagine ever doing anything like this yet.
	Yeah, I can't imagine raping someone, but that doesn't mean that rape is something to laugh about.
	They did it like it was normal.
	And when he was hitting me, the response was to send me to Alateen so I could talk to teens who were abused.
	Let's go back to, you say he put a knife in your face?
	What do you mean?
	A typical holiday dinner would involve some elaborate roast or prime rib or something that he would spend a lot of time preparing to entertain.
	You know, just a very well laid out table.
	And, you know, invariably something would happen.
	Like I would, let's say he'd be carving the meal to serve and I would have my elbow on the table.
	And, you know, immediately the big knife would be in my face and he'd be screaming at me about how I'm ruining dinner with my freaking elbows on the table.
	But, you know, he wasn't saying freaking.
	Right, right.
	So pointing a knife in a child's face and screaming, that's not ruining dinner.
	No, that's not.
	Do you believe that he had a genetic and or medical condition that provide excuses for this behavior?
	No, I don't know.
	I know he was abused as a child.
	If I'm going to come up with an excuse for him, I tend to think that neither of my...
	My mother or my stepfather or my father were smart enough or had the resources or help available to them to overcome the abuses that they suffered.
	Well, hang on, hang on.
	Okay, sorry to interrupt, but so they, I mean, if there's some involuntary aspect to their abuse, which I think what you're saying, like if somebody Has an epileptic attack and thwacks someone else, that's not the same as assault, right?
	Because there's an involuntary aspect to what they're doing.
	It's what they learned.
	What I'm saying is it's what they learned.
	I understand that.
	Hang on, hang on.
	Let me finish my thought.
	Let me finish my thought.
	Yes, sir.
	So, if there was an involuntary aspect, in other words, a medical basis, for their abuses, then they must have done it They must have done it at times like around policemen.
	They must have been abusive around teachers because it's involuntary, right?
	And so I guess my question is, this is the fundamental question, is were they in control of their behavior to the point where the abuse was kept secret?
	Or was it known to teachers, known to priests, known to police or whoever, right?
	Here's the extent of the sickness of society because they did a pretty good job of keeping it.
	Sorry, just before I – I know this is part of answering the question, but I just – did they do it in situations where other people could observe it?
	When I ended up going into school with bruises on my face or all freaked out from some altercation with the stepfather first thing in the morning...
	The school became aware of it, and I had talked, of course, to my school counselor about it, and for some strange reason, she was gone the next year.
	My school counselor, I think she wanted to do something about the abuse, and it was a Catholic high school, and the priest who ran the school knew about it.
	Okay, sorry.
	Listen, man.
	Listen, you're not answering my question.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay, this is kind of a yes or no question.
	Did your mother and stepmother abuse you in situations where people in authority could have possibly inflicted negative results on them?
	No.
	No, no.
	He definitely would not hit me in public when...
	I mean, the man is a coward, so...
	Okay, alright.
	So if the behavior can be controlled, it cannot be because of history or genetics or anything like that.
	You know, I can't, like I had cancer this summer, right?
	I couldn't sit there and say, well, I'm in front of my doctor, so I'm going to will my cancer away.
	I see what I'm doing.
	If you put child abuse into the category of medical issues, it's kind of insulting to people who've actually had medical issues.
	Because this is chosen behavior, right?
	There's like this, for some reason there's this, even though I myself don't act that way and I learned different ways to act, I still make an excuse for them for some reason.
	Well, we know the reason, right?
	But a guy who's missing his arm can't regrow his arm when he really needs it.
	I mean, the arm's gone.
	There's no faith healer who regrows arms, right?
	And there's no, whoa, wow, I needed to catch something.
	I needed to catch a fly ball, so I grew that arm and then it vanished again, right?
	But I know why and you know why you provide excuses to abusers.
	We already talked about that in this show, right?
	I disowned them.
	I disowned them when I was 33 when he was pointing knives.
	No, we're not talking about disowning them just now.
	We're talking about moral clarity, which is really what I think a lot of these shows are about when it comes to childhood.
	So why do you provide excuses?
	I think it's something that I've heard a lot of.
	I heard it from them, like my mother would make excuses for the stepfather saying, you know, he had a rough life.
	Some therapists would say, you know, everybody does the best that they can if they don't know how to do better.
	Sorry, everybody does the best that they can.
	Who said that?
	Your parents?
	I'm a therapist.
	Okay, but look, wait, wait.
	If everybody does the best that they can, then you should never punish a child because the child is doing the best that he can, right?
	Yeah, it's a very interesting thought that that therapist had.
	Interesting.
	I was against it.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	I'm just pointing out a fundamental hypocrisy and you're saying it's interesting?
	I was against it when she said it.
	I was like, you're just making excuses for them.
	But I've heard it's a very common thing, so I think I must have seen it.
	Of course it's a common thing.
	Why is it a common thing?
	Because society's pretty messed up.
	Because there are so many abusers out there.
	Yeah.
	And abusers have much more incentive to screw with everyone's moral clarity...
	Than anyone else, right?
	Yeah.
	When good people create moral clarity, they draw the eye of abusers, right?
	So even good people don't have much incentive for moral clarity, right?
	Like you say, I assume your two therapists were secretly around like, well, okay, if your parents are abusive, maybe you don't have to see them, right?
	Well, I cut things off with him as an adult when he was pointing knives at me at the family dinner as I graduated college.
	We cut things off because it was making me crazy.
	I was going to hurt him now that I'm big.
	It was either like, get this guy away from me or I'm going to hurt him.
	And at that point, I had a lot of anger that I've since dealt with.
	Now I don't think...
	Sorry to interrupt you.
	I'm sorry to interrupt you.
	If you've dealt with the anger, I don't understand the laughter, I don't understand the convoluted excuses, and I don't understand the lack of emotion when a fundamental hypocrisy is pointed out.
	That strikes me more like dissociation than it does integration.
	I'm sure there's some dissociation, but I don't spend a lot of my time upset about the person, and when I think about him, when he passes through my mind, I don't necessarily wish him bad like I used to.
	I used to have obsessive thoughts about, you know, Revenge or, you know, hoping he would get his.
	So I think I've forgiven, and even if that forgiveness has come about for some convoluted ways, I think that whatever Oh, okay, sorry.
	So your idea is that your choice is either sort of stew in hatred or forgive, because that's usually the dichotomy that is offered to abuse victims.
	You know, you can stay angry, and you can stew in your hatred, and you can cede, and you can wish for vengeance, and you can pick at these mental sores forever, or you can forgive.
	I've heard that, and I read a book.
	I'm not going to say which name of the book, because I didn't think it was that great, but I read a book about forgiveness.
	It's one of the most popular ones out there.
	And letting go of a lot of that stuff that was negative, negative feelings about it, has made room for a better headspace for myself.
	I don't know.
	What can I say?
	I'm not very angry about the person.
	Like, we're talking about him, and I don't...
	You're laughing about your childhood abuse!
	Yeah, because it's one way that people deal with uncomfortable...
	talking about uncomfortable things.
	Let me say this again.
	You're laughing about...
	You're laughing about having knives pushed in your face.
	You're laughing about these things.
	Does that strike you as the end of the journey of integration of your childhood experiences?
	Is that the best that can be done?
	What do good people think when you laugh about child abuse?
	I'm never going to stop working on this stuff, obviously.
	But I'm doing great for myself for how I've been, how bad, how difficult it's been.
	I agree that I'm never going to stop working on it.
	The laughing, you know, I don't talk about this stuff a lot, so...
	I realize it's completely horrible.
	I realize that not only is it completely horrible, but this sort of abuse is widespread and incredibly more widespread than most people would care to even discuss.
	So I know that I'm not alone in abuse.
	Well, I'm certainly not going to tell you that you have a problem if you don't believe you have a problem, because that's...
	Denying your genuine experience of where you are, so don't let me sway you as far as that goes.
	Is there a specific question that I can help you with?
	Well, there's a bit about the loneliness of having worked on all this stuff that a lot of people don't work on.
	I mean, I've...
	I've had therapy.
	I've, you know, radically changed my diet.
	I've become a certified yoga instructor.
	God, there's just like so, so much work.
	I studied Advaita Vedanta.
	That was something that I called in thinking we could talk about.
	Or non-dualism for the past three years.
	I was involved in...
	I attracted...
	See, like, the loneliness thing, there's a...
	The people that I tend to attract are also injured or hurt and also abusive.
	And that's sort of...
	And then when I realized that they're abusive, like one of my previous teachers, the guy who trained me...
	I tend to cut them off, so I don't end up with having a lot of friends.
	And it's just very frustrating.
	I feel like the abuse of my childhood has sort of put me in this mode where I am more vulnerable to being duped by evil or sociopaths or whatnot.
	Well, again, you're saying that's causal, right?
	So you're saying that if you've had an abusive childhood, then you are more susceptible to bringing abusers into your life?
	It seems that way.
	Now, from a non-dualistic standpoint, that's completely nonsense, because there would be no cause or effect.
	But there's just...
	I mean, it doesn't happen to me.
	Right?
	I mean, I had a bad childhood, and it doesn't happen to me that I don't have abusers.
	Thank you.
	You don't run into them?
	I mean, I don't know.
	I certainly don't have any in my life, and I don't have them trying to get into my life, and I don't have them in contact with me.
	So, no.
	So there's something there that I need to get to, to stop that.
	Yes, there is.
	Yes, there is.
	And I'd like to help you with that if you'd like.
	Yeah, that would be amazing.
	I mean, just talking to you is helping already, so...
	Okay, but then, you know, I'm happy to do it.
	I'll just ask something, which is try not to fight me in the conversation.
	Afterwards, you can think I'm an idiot or a jerk and completely wrong.
	But just during the conversation, try not to fight me too much.
	It doesn't mean you don't have an identity or anything.
	But I'm going to say things that are probably going to go against your sensibilities.
	But if we fight every sentence, then we'll never finish.
	But if I can make the case and then you can mull it over, I think that would be helpful, if that's all right.
	Okay.
	You have abuses in your life because you're still making excuses for abusers.
	And they sense that.
	They know that.
	Right?
	They know that you can be treated unbelievably badly in a criminal fashion.
	You cannot threaten children with knives and scream at them while pointing a knife at them.
	You know, try that with your wife.
	You will go to jail.
	That is illegal.
	That is illegal.
	He is a criminal.
	I know.
	And your mother aids and abets that criminality, and in fact created the conditions for that criminality.
	I assume she saw this behavior.
	Oh, yeah.
	And not only did not protect you from it, but put you in that goddamn situation to begin with.
	Yeah, almost every incident, almost every incident, the knives, the hitting, all occurred in front of her.
	It was in front of her, right?
	All of it.
	All of it.
	There were only two occasions or three occasions in my entire life where he ever did anything to me when she wasn't present.
	Right.
	So he felt perfectly safe acting this kind of way in front of your mother because not only did, and I hate to put it this crudely, not only did she not turn him into the police, but she'd still fuck him, right?
	Gosh, I imagine they had a sex life.
	Yeah, I imagine.
	Right?
	Who knows?
	It might have turned her on.
	I don't know.
	But what I'm saying is that she had sex with the guy who stuck a knife in your face.
	Like, not only did she not protect you, not only did she bring this man into your life, but she probably gave him blowjobs too.
	Like she rewarded him with this behavior in the house.
	Yeah, that's so horrible.
	This is what I'm talking about when you laugh.
	And again, please understand, I'm not criticizing you for laughing.
	I'm not saying it's bad or wrong or anything like that.
	But what I'm saying is that abusers understand all of this innately.
	It's one thing to fail to protect someone.
	It's another thing to hire their hitman, like the hitman, right?
	Yeah.
	And she was rewarding him with physical intimacy with sex when he was doing this stuff.
	It's horrible.
	And I guess it's no wonder that I've had a difficult love life because I think my framework for what healthy relationships are has been, you know, trashed.
	But I've never done anything.
	Well, no, no.
	And I appreciate that.
	Look, I'm not saying that you're wrong.
	And I'm sorry to interrupt and I'm sorry to try and work at these kinds of corrections.
	Go for it.
	But the reason, like, if you touch a hot stove repeatedly, it doesn't make much sense to say, I touch a hot stove repeatedly because I touched a hot stove repeatedly in the past.
	Does that make sense?
	Okay.
	So saying I am susceptible to abuse because I was abused is like saying I want to touch hot stoves because I was touched with hot stoves or touched with something hot.
	I want to get into another car crash because I was in a car crash.
	I am susceptible to frostbite because I had frostbite.
	It's complete nonsense, but there it is coming out of my mouth.
	No, and I understand that.
	What you're saying is the common parlance.
	So I don't fault you at all for saying it.
	I hope you understand that.
	I'm not saying, well, that's stupid.
	It's not.
	This is what people believe.
	They believe that because we've been exposed to evil, we are susceptible to evil.
	But it's not because we've been exposed to evil that we are susceptible to evil.
	It's because we are not allowed to call it by its proper name, which will make us defensive and defend against it.
	We are not allowed to call evil by its correct, proper, accurate name.
	Therefore, we are susceptible to it.
	We are supposed to call poison medicine, and we wonder why we're always sick.
	Yeah, the medicine that they put me on...
	Ridiculous.
	There's alternatives now to that.
	I want to say this, if I can, because I think it's important to your listeners, but they could get neutrogenomic testing or a spectra cell test or something if they have chronic depression or something.
	And they might find doctors that are trained in those things, good doctors, not just doctors who want to stuff a pill down their throat, but doctors who understand the genetics at the American College for Advancement of Medicine, or ACAMnet.org.
	It's just a resource.
	I'm not associated with them in any way.
	I just think that if there's people out there like me that had a genetic predisposition or something and they're looking for help, they should be in therapy.
	Okay, let's get back.
	I appreciate the commercial, but let's get back to the topic at hand.
	So let me tell you one of the great secrets of what's called culture.
	This is a general rule that I really want you to try taking to heart.
	Which is, all that makes you susceptible to abuse was designed by abusers.
	All that makes you susceptible or all that leaves you susceptible to evil is designed by evil people.
	So if you have been pursuing what is called...
	Good mental health practices, and you have ended up still susceptible to evil, it's possible that those good mental health practices are actually designed by evil people.
	I haven't seen a yoga studio without, and I've been in yoga for years now in America, like seven years.
	I have not seen one that wasn't in some way abusive to most often the female students.
	I just haven't seen it.
	Well, the one where I trained at, which is very well known and is world famous.
	Some of his students are some of the biggest names in yoga, but I won't say any more than that.
	There were, like, protégés were And I was friends with a lot of the girls, so I knew.
	Like, protégés of his were sleeping with multiples of the girls and lying to them about it.
	And when they'd find out about it, they'd get upset and come talk to me.
	You know, these girls were being hurt by this.
	It wasn't like...
	Well, look, I mean, this would not be the first Eastern mystical practice that exploited sexuality.
	Come on.
	I mean, the Kalasutra didn't fall out of a crackerjack box, right?
	His teacher was also accused of this sort of thing.
	Okay, so let's go back to, again, you're trying to manfully draw me off course, which is fine, but let's keep going, if that's alright.
	Okay, yes.
	So you have been told that there's a false dichotomy, which is called seething and hatred, or...
	because that's what you said, right?
	So I said, you said, well, I'm not really that angry.
	I don't think about them Dutch anymore and so on, right?
	When I said sort of question the forgiveness thing.
	But these are not the only two options because if you remain stewed in anger and hatred towards abusers, then that can only be because you're still around them, right?
	Right.
	Right, I mean, I am not scared of a lion when I'm safe at home, right?
	Thank you.
	If a lion's chasing me, I'm scared of the lion, and I may sort of have some dreams about it or whatever, but if I'm stuck in the lion cage, I'm going to remain scared of the lion, right?
	So when we remain angry at people who are abusing us, it's because unrepentant abusers must still be around us, right?
	So, that's one option.
	And now, if we end up getting angry at them, now, if we just keep that anger bottled up within ourself, and we don't speak it to our abusers, and we don't stand up for ourselves, and we don't demand better treatment, and we don't goddamn well demand apologies for prior abuse, and expect better behavior, and people go into therapy, and cleaning their shit up, and doing some vaguely decent goddamn stuff in their life, if we never stand up for ourselves, the abusers are happy, right?
	Now, if we end up With some emotional self-awareness, and we get angry at our abusers, right?
	Then either they have to repent and be better people, and who knows what's going to happen if they try that.
	And anyway, it's too goddamn late.
	If they could repent and be better people, why the hell didn't they do that when we were kids, right?
	The moment we initiate it, they're fucked, right?
	The moment we initiate confrontation with abusers, everything they do after that is a strategy.
	It's like the guy who confesses when he's caught.
	Well, he's caught.
	It's just a strategy, right?
	The guy who bursts into tears when we confront him on something bad, that's just a strategy.
	Because if he felt bad about something, he would have done something about it.
	He wouldn't have waited for us, right?
	So if people abuse us for a long time, and then we stand up and we get angry, right?
	What's their second line of defense?
	First line of defense is to ignore everything completely and to ridicule us for anything we experience that's real or to poo-poo it, which is what happened to the first caller, right?
	That's the first line of defense is minimization for abusers.
	What is the second line of defense?
	That's what my mother would do in the past.
	Now, if you keep pushing, what's the second line of defense?
	When I pushed my mother, she would go into some sort of victim mode and try to make me out to be abusive to her.
	Or to get me to feel sorry for her.
	There's a triangle of victim, villain, hero.
	She would always go into that if I pressed anything.
	Right.
	Okay, so she tries the victim role, which is now to turn you into the abuser's role.
	And if that doesn't work, what does society tell you to do?
	People in society have always told me, when I tell them that I don't speak with my parents anymore, they're like, oh, that's your mother.
	She gave birth to you.
	You should really try to patch things up with her.
	Forgive her, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Now that is, I'll call it the second, I'm not sure where your mom's I'm a victim defense fits in, but...
	It's another way of minimizing your feelings, for sure, right?
	And focusing your feelings on her.
	The second line, first line of defense is to minimize.
	The second line of defense is, you must forgive me.
	Right?
	Or you must forgive your parents.
	Or you must forgive your teachers.
	Or you must forgive whoever abused you.
	And my question has always been, first of all, if...
	I'm sorry, go ahead.
	If they're truly a sociopath, they'll play on that, get you to forgive them, and then continue doing what they want to do anyway.
	No, no, no, no.
	What I'm saying is that if they're a sociopath, if they're evil, they won't play on that.
	They will invent that.
	That will become a social standard.
	Abusers want to abuse you and keep you around.
	They want to hurt you and they want you to stay.
	Those are the two things that are common to abusers.
	Now, if you never get upset about the abuse, then you'll stay, right?
	If you get upset about the abuse, you will leave unless they can convince you to forgive them.
	And what is the point of forgiveness?
	Forgiveness is just another kind of minimization.
	Forgiveness is basically, I want to be treated as if I didn't abuse you.
	That's what forgiveness is, when it's not earned, right?
	Forgiveness is, treat me like I didn't abuse you, right?
	So if I steal a thousand dollars from you, and I want you to forgive me, what I'm saying is, I want you to treat me as if I never stole a thousand dollars from you.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Which is another form of minimization.
	The champions of forgiveness in the therapy world say that if you're walking around with a lot of hate in your heart, it's like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.
	I'm sure you've heard that.
	Well, but my question is, why are you still feeling hatred if you're not in the environment anymore?
	If you can get away from your abusers, then your anger has served its purpose.
	Which is to get you out of a dangerous situation, right?
	The fight-or-flight mechanism is designed to get you to safety, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Now, forgiveness blunts that because it says you must will safety where there is no safety, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	In other words, it hasn't been a long process of restitution and apologies and therapy and whatever.
	I don't know if there's any restitution possible for an abusive childhood, but I don't know what, right?
	So if I steal $1,000 from you, then I should not say you owe me forgiveness.
	Because that's stealing something else from you, which is your sense of security and genuine moral outrage.
	I'm just stealing more by demanding forgiveness.
	Now, maybe I can earn forgiveness if I stole $1,000 from you.
	I can give you back $10,000.
	I can go to therapy.
	I can make apologies.
	I can be a great friend.
	I can whatever.
	I don't know.
	Whatever changes can occur in life that earns an apology, right?
	That earns forgiveness.
	Sorry, that is an apology that earns forgiveness.
	But the whole point of getting angry is to get you to safety.
	And if you're angry at unrepentant abusers, your anger is telling you you are not safe in this environment and it's telling you to get the hell away from that environment.
	So, I'm not angry.
	I just sort of wake up every morning and say, oh, my parents and oh, these people when I was a kid.
	I don't think about them that much anymore because They're not in my life.
	They can't harm me.
	I'm not in the lion cage, so I don't have to focus on the lions.
	I've had a problem where...
	I can focus on all these other great things in my life.
	Because my anger got me to safety.
	Stefan, I had a problem for years after I had physically separated myself from them, where I was very angry.
	And it was almost like a dialogue in my...
	In my mind of, gosh, I'm so angry at them.
	And who supported you in that anger?
	Gosh, I don't know the answer to that.
	I'm not sure if I understand the question.
	I bet you nobody supported you in that anger.
	I bet you you had to hide that anger like it was something you were guilty of because people said, oh, but she's your mother.
	She gave you life.
	You've got to patch things up.
	She won't live forever.
	You'll regret it when she's dead.
	You'll cry on her gravestone.
	Right?
	People condemned you or put you down or, again, minimized your anger and your experience, right?
	Exactly, exactly.
	And when I kind of got over that mental dialogue with them, I noticed that, like, let's say my former teacher, when he did some things that were very manipulative and, I guess you would say evil, I, for a while after I got out of there, I obsessed about him for a while.
	So that's a problem, too, that sort of mental dialogue of being angry at the...
	It's like I'm reliving it in my head.
	Well, sure.
	And the reason that you're reliving it is that you're not free of it.
	And the reason that you're not free of it is you've got to listen to this call back.
	You came on, you told me terrible stories, you laughed about it, and you made some very sophisticated excuses that most people would not question you about.
	And that's why this pattern is repeating.
	And I don't fault you for it because this is where our culture is at.
	The culture is designed by abusive people, and it is designed by abusive people so that they can escape the consequences of their crimes.
	Criminals don't come up with close-circuit television.
	Shoplifters don't come up with those little tags that you have to take off clothes.
	I knew things were sick, but this makes it so much more sick than what I knew.
	Right, because if you are angry at abusers and everyone is telling you to go back to your abusers, you're still not in a safe place.
	Do you understand?
	Because people are still siding with your abusers.
	This is why I'm lonely.
	Well, it's because you're still not out.
	I'm closer than I've ever been, though.
	You're closer.
	I absolutely agree.
	You're closer than you've ever been.
	And that's something to be incredibly proud of.
	I've been through a lot and I'm happy with the person I am right now.
	I feel like, you know, that I've done really well.
	So that gives me a lot.
	And you have.
	And you have.
	And all I'm talking about is There is a way to not have abusive people in your life.
	And I need to get that figured out because I'm so tired of...
	Well, yeah.
	I mean, you're honest about what's happened to you.
	And if anybody sides with your abusers, get them out.
	I mean, unless it's like they say, oh, you should, and then like maybe an hour or a day later they say, you know what?
	I thought about that.
	I basically told you to reconnect with people who did you the most harm possible.
	Like, can you imagine if there was such a thing as a battered woman's shelter whose main purpose was to reunite the battered women with their abusive husbands?
	Well, you've got to forgive him.
	You've got to go back.
	He's been under a lot of stress lately.
	He might have Epstein-Barr.
	He had a bad childhood.
	You've got to go back.
	Yeah, you're right.
	It's ridiculous.
	Would a woman be safe if she was in that environment?
	No.
	No.
	And children aren't safe, and...
	I mean, they'll take out restraining orders against these guys.
	They'll have the cops pick them up.
	They'll get them thrown in jail.
	That's how much they want to keep these women safe from their abusers, right?
	I think it's worse because I'm a guy, actually.
	No, I agree.
	I agree.
	And one of my favorite talks that you had was how to break a man's heart or something like that.
	It was excellent.
	How a man's heart is murdered.
	Yeah, of course.
	You're supposed to be there for the utility of everyone else.
	You're supposed to dig their ditches and clean the snow off their driveway and repave their sidewalks and fix the roof and man the boy.
	You're not supposed to have your own preferences, needs, and emotions that are inconvenient to others.
	You're a guy.
	You're a toy soldier.
	And I'm actually pretty sensitive for God.
	I want...
	The security that your heart needs to be taken very seriously by you.
	It will.
	And the false trap of forgiveness?
	Forgiveness is not something you can will.
	You cannot scream at your dick until it gives you an erection and you cannot command your heart until it forgives people.
	Forgiveness is something that is earned.
	It's like love.
	It is something that is earned.
	It's like money.
	And people who tell you to forgive abusers are abusers.
	Thank you.
	Or certainly in line with abusers.
	Because it just serves their needs.
	And the first thing they should be doing is they should be going to women's shelters and saying that the job of the women's shelter should be to get the woman back into the abusive household as quickly as possible.
	Because that's her husband.
	He supported her.
	He paid her bills.
	He put a roof over her head.
	He gave her food.
	She owes him.
	Can you imagine that argument?
	Can you imagine how offensive that argument would be?
	To women and to anyone with any decent moral sensitivity?
	My last couple of therapists and my brother are all against me talking to my parents.
	So I've had three good, solid resources and now you're the fourth.
	I wish there were more people with common sense.
	Well, it's just consistency, right?
	I mean, people get upset about this stuff, which frankly I could give a shit about.
	But it's just about consistency.
	I was always told.
	I was always told, do not be in abusive relationships.
	I was told that with all my mom and her friends who ditched their boring or underperforming or abusive husbands, and everybody cheered them.
	You go, girl, liberation, female power!
	I was told not to be in gangs where the kids were mean.
	I was saying, don't hang out with the wrong crowd.
	Turns out the wrong crowd was the one around me in the hospital room on day one!
	I was told not to be in violent gangs.
	well turns out that that was much more biology than sociology it's it's it's like the one thing you said another and another thing that really hit home with me was that I will never get the I will never find a replacement for the loving mother that I should have had
	And I've realized that I've been looking for that in relationships a lot and that wasn't healthy.
	I mean, that was amazing.
	An amazing realization.
	And it seems like common sense after the fact, but when you're all confused and hurt and everything, it doesn't...
	working on damaged emotions, it doesn't make sense.
	Yeah, look, I mean, I think we all know what the reality is.
	Basically, ethics get pretty fuzzy when women's needs are involved, right?
	Because, you know, we all have moms and we all have female teachers.
	We're just used to complying with women's needs.
	And I don't just mean men.
	We're all used to complying with women's needs.
	There's a lot of double fucking standards.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	If it happens to a girl, it's female genital mutilation.
	If it happens to a boy, it's circumcision.
	I'm so glad you swore.
	I'm so glad you swore.
	How wonderful.
	That's great.
	Coming back to life.
	It's okay for an entire generation of women to ditch husbands they don't really like.
	So, voluntarism for women in their relationships?
	Oh, that's great!
	Kramer vs.
	Kramer?
	You know, Meryl Streep ditches Dustin Hoffman's character for no reason.
	He's not an abuser.
	He's not a drunk.
	You know, she just wants to go find herself.
	So, she abandons her kid.
	I watched that movie, like, when I was dead broke.
	I scraped together the money, watched that movie three times when I was a kid.
	Trying to figure it out.
	The fuck is going on?
	Oh, okay, so if you're just dissatisfied in your relationships, you can just take off, even if there's a dependent kid involved, and you're still kind of a heroine.
	So women are like, well, we want to get divorced.
	We're dissatisfied.
	And society's like, oh, okay, well, we serve women.
	So, okay, yeah, women who get divorced are heroes.
	And single moms are heroes.
	And, yeah, okay, so the fact that we're killing the economy of the welfare state to serve single moms, they're heroes because we serve women.
	Right?
	And now I start talking about voluntary relationships as adults.
	Oh, my God!
	Now women don't want that.
	Moms don't want that.
	Abusive moms don't want that.
	I've seen some of the criticism of the...
	It's not even really criticism.
	It's just garbage.
	Yeah, but that's because now the voluntarism where women didn't like their husbands or wanted something better or wanted to have hypogamy their way up the ladder, when women were dissatisfied, With their husbands, then dumping their husbands was noble and heroic and self-empowered and this and that, right?
	But when adult men think about not talking to their moms because their moms are abusive, that's terrible.
	Yeah, I saw one of them, they said you're a cult leader.
	I'm a cult leader, absolutely.
	Yeah.
	Because I say things that are true.
	The video was nonsense.
	Yeah, like I say things that are true, such as adult relations are voluntary.
	Well, that's actually a fact.
	But if you say things that are true, as true now as in the days of Socrates, what are you accused of?
	Corrupting the young with facts, with truth, with honesty.
	But we all know the basic reality.
	Deep down we know it.
	That women liked voluntarism when it served their purposes and women don't like voluntarism when it cost them.
	And when it serves their purposes, voluntarism in relationships and dumping relationships you're unhappy with is heroic and independent-minded and you are a self-starter and you are finding yourself and you are girl power, blah-de-blah.
	Fantastic.
	Okay, I listen to that.
	I accept it.
	Okay, so then men should have the same right with their moms if they don't like their moms.
	If their moms are abusive or whatever, they can't fix the relationship.
	Oh, see, suddenly that's terrible.
	And then everyone, because women's discontent is now radiating out about this concept, so everyone lines up to bash the podcaster.
	You know, the big problem is not that 80% of moms are hitting their children.
	Oh, see, that's not the problem.
	A podcaster is the problem.
	It's 80%?
	Yeah.
	In England, 50 to 60% of moms hit their children before their children are one fucking year old.
	But see, that's not the problem.
	And we now have studies, I've read them, and the study is just like, I mean, it damages the child's brain to hit them.
	There's no question about it.
	I mean, you put helmets on children, for Christ's sake, in a contact sport known as football.
	I mean, babies don't wear helmets in the contact sport known as parenting.
	So, I mean, when you look at society's values, so much of it can be traced back to what women want.
	And we're just so used to providing what women want in this massive patriarchy of ours, right?
	That if women want to leave their husbands, that's great.
	Even if those husbands aren't abusive, even if they're just kind of boring, kind of unstimulating.
	Even if the marriage is in a bit of a rut, right?
	Then women are heroes for doing that.
	But if men decide to leave unsatisfying relationships with their mothers, well, suddenly that goes against what women want, and that's really bad, right?
	But the idea that there's any philosophy behind this other than rank boob fetish woman-pleasing is ridiculous, right?
	Yeah, I don't think there's very much thought put into most of what our society has.
	I mean, it's just...
	It's disgusting.
	It's disgusting that it's 2013 and we're still mutilating boys' penises for some fictional covenant, or not, just for some, you know...
	Fiction of hygiene or something.
	It's incredible.
	It's incredible.
	And when somebody's sick, possibly with a diagnosable physical thing like I had, you know, a problem regulating GABA, they instead give me speed, Ritalin, as a child.
	I'll tell you what Ritalin did to me.
	It affects your kidneys and your adrenaline glands and your fight or flight.
	That's common knowledge, but what they don't tell you is that your kidneys are energetically in the Chinese meridian system acupuncture, which is not nonsense, are linked to your psoas muscles.
	And if your psoas muscles get weak from being on too much stimulants, you're going to have low back pain.
	And I had low back pain when I was 12.
	And I didn't correct it until recently.
	And before I could correct it, I ended up having a back surgery.
	You are not allowed any more medical filibuster, so I'm sorry about that.
	But I can't let you dissociate my listeners with this stuff because we're talking about something a bit more meaty.
	And I certainly do not mean to dismiss the medical issues that you had out of inappropriate medication.
	Sorry.
	But the medical filibusters probably aren't very good for most people staying in contact with what we're talking about.
	I guess that's part of my problem.
	And I understand that, right?
	I understand that, but you stay with your gut.
	You know, forget about your liver for a sec.
	I guess that's part of my problem, is that I can tend to go off on to technical, like, scientific...
	You think?
	Yeah, and people just don't get it.
	I know that I'm very gifted in terms of science, and school was always very easy for me, so maybe that's part of my issue.
	Well, no, it's a way of people don't want to confront you on that because maybe they feel like they're not able to follow, or maybe it's just kind of a, you know, we're having a kind of heart-to-heart here, right?
	And going off on this medical stuff is a way of staying away from the connection that we as two guys talking about our histories can have, right?
	I see that, too.
	And I'd probably do that because that's probably what would happen when I was young.
	If I ever talked about something that was heart-related, it would probably be very quickly moved to a different realm because it would have been...
	Well, but in this case, you're moving it, right?
	And so if you're saying that you feel lonely, resist the urge to use Latin.
	LAUGHTER Or any body part that's not a single syllable.
	Just try and avoid that stuff in my suggestion.
	But look, I mean, I'm going to get obviously the endless, oh, he's anti-female and so on, which is all just another bit of nonsense.
	But the reality is I want women to be a lot happier.
	I hear you talk all the time about your wife and your child.
	You love women.
	Well, those are two, right?
	I certainly have some great female friends, but one of whom is building a studio for us.
	But I want women to be happier.
	I really do.
	Look, I don't think women are happy screaming at their kids and hitting their kids and not spending time with their kids.
	And I don't think women are happy getting divorced.
	And I think fundamentally that's just, you know, sometimes you have to gently take away the weapon from the blind shooter.
	And this is just bad stuff.
	And either women accept the voluntarism in the parent-child relationship when the child becomes an adult, or women as a whole owe a massive apology to my father's generation.
	It's all recent.
	This is literally the last few generations that this has come about.
	That's factual, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	But look, men serving the needs of women has been – I mean that's almost all animals, right?
	I mean that giant peacock ass tail doesn't drag that around because he's a disco fan of Liberace.
	He does that to show his value to women.
	And the birds who built those little beautiful boybirds who built those little beautiful nests to attract the girlbirds, they do that, right?
	And the fact that men have 40% more upper body strength is because we all were out there slaving to bring bacon and cheeseburgers to women.
	And the men who are in the Arctic among the Inuit out in a tiny little boat throwing a toothpick up the ass of a sperm whale, they're doing that because they need to bring blubber back for the babies.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	It's not like men are the slaves of women.
	I don't understand what I mean.
	But historically, men who did not conform to what women wanted didn't get selected as mates.
	And therefore, we have a very strong psychological predisposition to identify what women want and provide it to them.
	I mean, this is why men developed labor-saving devices for women so they wouldn't have to do quite as much laundry before they developed masks to keep men from dying from black lung in the coal mines.
	That's actually historically true.
	Labor-saving devices were provided to women before safety devices were provided to the men.
	Who are laboring to provide the energy to the women, right?
	And women are like, oh, you want to go into the workforce?
	Okay, we'll do that.
	Oh, you want more access to higher education?
	Okay, we'll do that.
	This is just the way that we evolved as a species, as a whole genus.
	I mean, providing what women want is how you get to pair bond.
	And so we have this instinct to provide what women want.
	And unfortunately, we then call it philosophy when it's just trying to get laid.
	But it's not a sensible way to run a society.
	It seems to me the media and the big companies and everything that call the shots have been playing on this for a while.
	And that's maybe why the women's lib thing came along.
	And maybe they figured out that if they could get single moms, you know, if they could break up families, that it would feminize men and make them more easy to control.
	Well, there's some of that, but of course, I mean, feminism is kind of a government program, right?
	I mean, you can look up the CIA-funded Gloria Steinem and a lot of the early feminists received massive amounts of government money, some of it quite clandestine.
	Here in Canada, feminist groups have received $300 million over the last decade or two.
	It's a government program, and of course it's highly profitable for governments to get women out of the home and into the workforce, because then you can tax the women, and you can also tax whoever's taking care of the kids for the most part.
	So it's a very profitable enterprise.
	It's not an ideology.
	It's just a government program.
	I look at the problem of the world and I'm like, okay, let's say we could give people alternatives and get more people doing things that weren't as crazy.
	Then I start looking around and I see the Middle East.
	And I'm like, what the hell do you do with these people who think that it's okay to do an honor killing if a woman talks to a man in public that's not part of her family or something?
	Is there...
	I can't even imagine any type of hope for people that are that far gone in our race in general.
	It's not a huge amount distant from us in the Middle Ages.
	I mean, we burned witches and all this kind of stuff, right?
	And sent men into the endless fires of war.
	Anyway, listen, I'm so sorry.
	We do, of course, have a bunch of other...
	Callers.
	We do have a bunch of other callers.
	I think I can just do one more.
	It's been a heck of a long show, but I certainly appreciate your patience with the conversation.
	You've got to listen to this back.
	You sound worlds apart from when we started, for which I appreciate you having the patience to listen to my harangues and all that.
	I think it's great work.
	Please keep up all the good work that you do.
	I will absolutely listen to it back, and I'm going to keep working on making my life better.
	And I think listening to your show is a part of that.
	Thank you.
	Appreciate that.
	And for somebody who was asking in the chat room, what is the movie?
	You should watch this movie, really.
	It's called Kramer vs.
	Kramer.
	That's K-R-A-M-E-R, Kramer vs.
	Kramer.
	And it was, was it Best Picture?
	I think it was Best.
	It was a huge movie.
	In 1979, it came out.
	And it is...
	I think it's pretty important to watch it.
	And it is...
	I mean, it's fantastically well acted.
	The screenplay is really great.
	The relationship...
	Seeing the relationship between the father and the son, I think, is very interesting.
	Yeah, it got Academy Award for Best Picture, Best Director, Best Actor, Best Writing...
	Nominated for Best Supporting Actor, Best Supporting Actress.
	Meryl Streep won for Best Actress.
	It swept the awards.
	It's in everyone's top 100 movies lift.
	It is really, really essential to have a look at that and to see...
	Just how this 70s feminism, independence, find yourself stuff was portrayed, and it had a huge impact on me, and it completely informed my views, not just on the family and voluntarism within the family, but on society as a whole.
	And of course, this woman chose to get married.
	We don't choose our parents.
	This woman was never economically and legally dependent on her husband in a permanent, like in a semi-permanent way, but that is the case with children.
	So the standards of behavior should be far higher, far higher for marriages than they are for the parent-child relationship.
	So yeah, it's well worth watching.
	All right, let's do one more caller if we can, and then I will look.
	All right, Paul, you're up.
	Go ahead.
	Thanks for your patience, Paul.
	Sorry.
	No worries.
	No worries.
	So my question actually sort of follows from that.
	It is about what children are owed.
	And basically the reason that I have for asking this is whenever I talk about the sort of libertarian or With voluntaristic interactions, people always bring up children as a counterexample.
	So, at that point, I sort of...
	I'm sorry, you just dropped off for a sec there, if you could repeat.
	Alright, so basically what I'm asking is, what do people owe children?
	So, I guess primarily...
	I'm sorry, you keep cutting out.
	Mike, can you hear him?
	He's cutting out for me too.
	Want to try it one more time, Paul?
	No, I think I got the question.
	Let's just leave him off because this is the second time.
	So the question is, what do people owe children?
	Well, I mean, what we owe any other prisoner we decide to house.
	I mean, if I decide to house a prisoner, then I owe that prisoner food and medical attention and exercise and blah-de-blah-de-blah.
	And of course, if I have signed up to provide them with education, then I owe them education and so on.
	And so I think that it's, you know, children...
	My daughter is an involuntary prisoner in my house.
	She cannot leave.
	She has no choice about where she lives.
	She has no choice about who she has as parents.
	And so she is...
	And there's nothing wrong with it.
	I mean, it's obviously just the biological reality of it.
	But she is an involuntary prisoner in my house.
	And my goal, I think the goal of any rational, moral person, is to make the house as appealing...
	As possible to the point where if she could choose to be anywhere, she would choose to be here.
	That is the only way to remove the prisoner aspect of it, right?
	So you run your prison like the most amazing, fantastical, wonderful hotel that could be imagined.
	That's how you run your prison.
	Then it's not a prison anymore, right?
	Right.
	So that is, that I think is what is necessary.
	The tragedy, of course, is that the people tend to lower their standards in involuntary situations, right?
	As the Milgram's experiment where he Took half of a college class and made them prisoners and took another half and made them guards and they wanted to run this experiment I think for two weeks but had to stop it after two or three days because rampant abuse was breaking out.
	Or they just did an experiment recently where they coached husbands on agreeing with everything their wife said rather than fighting with them.
	And they wanted this experiment to run for two weeks, but they had to stop it because the wives were becoming increasingly abusive towards the husbands, even though they didn't know an experiment was going on.
	And the husband's happiness index plunged from like 8 to 3 out of 10.
	And so it is really a problem.
	So it's just a...
	A recognition that where the choices are the least, our standards must be the highest, and there's no lower choice than childhood, and therefore our standards need to be the highest.
	And so that is what parents owe.
	It's the very best possible behavior, and if they can't provide it, then they need to find other people who can.
	Alright, thanks.
	And can I just ask one more question?
	Sure.
	Alright, then if that isn't provided, who should be in charge of stepping in?
	And I guess if these things are neglected in large amounts, who should be in charge of making sure the child has it after that point when the parents don't really provide what the child needs?
	Well, I mean, not the state, obviously, because in a free society there wouldn't be a state.
	But...
	In a free society, I mean, people would not generally have children for reasons of welfare, for reasons of psychological deficiency, for reasons of filling a void or a hole in their life, for reasons of replicating the virus meme of religion, whatever, right?
	They wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't have really teen pregnancies, which almost always arise out of abusive pregnancies.
	I mean, there would be not as many unwanted children so it would be a much smaller issue And what I think would happen is there would be agencies that would be interested in the welfare of children, which would provide insurance for negative or difficult or problematic behavior from children.
	And if children were developing badly, then there would be options.
	You know, somebody could pay the parents to take the child off their hands, you know, and then those people would be vetted to make sure they were going to the right place.
	Or more significant economic ostracism sanctions could be included and so on.
	I think that would be how it would work.
	It's hard to say, but it would be such a tiny issue that it's probably not too important to talk about because it's sort of like saying, how is polio handled in Canada in the 21st century?
	It's like, well, it's really not handled because it's just not really there.
	All right.
	Well, I definitely hope you're right, and I hope we're heading in that direction.
	Thanks a lot.
	Thank you.
	All right, I can do one more quick one.
	Hit me.
	All right, Patrick, go ahead.
	Oh, hi, Stefan.
	So I guess, yeah, mine would be probably pretty quick, too, because I don't intend to say anything that you would probably disagree with.
	But I just had some comments regarding your debate with Walter Block and spanking.
	And so, in particular, what I wanted to focus on was how he was constantly rebutting you by saying these are utilitarian considerations and they have no place in this deontological libertarian discussion.
	And my view was that his own premises kind of contradict that assertion, because His justification for this, what he called like this right to physically invade against a child, he justified it according to two things.
	He said first that a child has a delimited set of rights and he compared them to like a person with Alzheimer's or something.
	And then second he said parents have a guardian status kind of embedded in their own child.
	And he justified this by saying that parents kind of They homestead the biological antecedents of their own child.
	So, as a result, they have this kind of trustee or guardianship status.
	And then he gave two examples to kind of illustrate his point.
	And I'll just quickly reiterate them.
	The first one was the urinal example where he said he used physical force to lift up his son to prevent his genitals from touching the public toilet.
	And the second one was that suicide bridge scenario.
	And both of them, I mean, he kind of used semantic tricks to justify them, in my view.
	So he kept on saying that they would not violate rights or that they would be examples of being a good guardian.
	Well, being a good guardian means precisely analyzing the context of the physical invasion.
	So it means what are the motivations of the physical invasion and what are the consequences of the physical invasion?
	I mean, and he himself admitted this when he said, At one point you said, well, you can't extend this to, say, spanking on a continual basis.
	And he responded by saying, well, that's just another instance of physical invasion.
	And then about ten seconds later, he quickly just said, well, of course, it has to be within reason.
	And I think that kind of shows that he's implicitly making a utilitarian argument here.
	He's not saying that there's some principle of a parent can just do whatever they want.
	They can just punch their kid in the face because they like to.
	He's saying that if they physically invade against their child, it is only justified insofar as it is conducive with being a good guardian.
	So, in other words, he's making a utilitarian argument himself to justify both of these situations.
	So I think in your...
	Argument against making you're following his exact procedure, so I just thought I would contribute that Yeah, I mean I may do a full video on this I mean I I was baffled by my inability to explain something to him and Because I never assumed that I'm right.
	I wanted to sort of say okay Well, let me let me think about this because maybe what I'm saying doesn't make anyone any sense if a smart person doesn't understand or really disagrees with what I'm saying and And I've explained it three times, then I kind of have to say, okay, well, I've got to think about it some more, right?
	And so I guess I did.
	And I think that his position seemed a little problematic in some ways.
	So the first thing he did was reject the utilitarian argument, right?
	And said that he doesn't understand or accept morality.
	There's no such thing as morality.
	But if it's not a principled argument and it's not a utilitarian argument, then what kind of argument is it?
	I don't really know.
	I mean, it's either bad effects or it is an illogical or immoral principle.
	But if both of those are thrown out, if reason...
	Basically, if morals and consequences are thrown out, I don't know how we're going to have a discussion about the non-aggression principle or anything like that.
	And he also said that there's no such thing as morality, but then he later said libertarians have a moral requirement to do X, and that doesn't make much sense to me.
	I felt that during the debate...
	I put sort of arguments forward about when you can violate the non-aggression principle so that it's not a non-aggression principle.
	And he didn't really answer that.
	He put this scenario up about your kid running off a bridge or whatever because he's suicidal.
	And I really tried to make the point that you as a bad parent are causal in that.
	You've been such a bad parent, your kid wants to jump off a bridge.
	So you have to stop them because you've created it.
	And the analogy would be, if I inject you with a disorienting drug and then you stagger towards a cliff edge, clearly I have to stop you because I have caused you or put you in that situation where you're staggering towards that cliff edge because of the disorienting drug I've injected into your body.
	So saying that I have a lower moral responsibility because I injected you with a drug that is having you stagger towards a cliff edge is not sensible.
	Clearly, I have a higher moral responsibility to stop you.
	If I just see you staggering towards a cliff edge, I don't morally have to stop you.
	It might be a nice thing to do, but I don't have to do it.
	But if I've injected you with some drug that makes you stagger towards a cliff edge, I do have to stop you.
	Otherwise, I'm guilty of murder.
	I think that's pretty clear, right?
	And so what happens before that is important in terms of your moral responsibility.
	But he said it's not important what came before.
	But when he brought up his libertarian prison guard, like, you know, you're a prison guard, you can kill 90 Jews instead of 100 Jews or whatever.
	And I said, well, but you're there by coercion.
	Then he said, well, you volunteered.
	In other words, what came before is important in his example.
	Right?
	But what came before wasn't important in my example, and that seems...
	I guess not very consistent.
	You know, if context is important to understand a moral argument, then you can't arbitrarily say, well, context is really important for my moral argument.
	He also said that the woman who shot the guy coming in through her window had been raped by someone who looked like him before.
	In other words, her context is really important.
	The context of the libertarian prison guard is really important.
	But then when I bring up that you are responsible for your kid falling because you've been such a bad parent, suddenly my context is not important and can't be used.
	I think that's not a great way to debate with consistency.
	You know, the point about not letting your children touch something that's dangerous, I don't think that's a violation of the non-aggression principle at all.
	I mean, holding your child so he doesn't touch something that could be germ-infested, yeah, okay, fine.
	I mean, if the child's old enough, you can talk to them before they go, but that's not a spanking situation, right?
	Because I defined spanking at the beginning.
	Which is, you know, the open hand and hitting of a child on the buttocks to elicit a change in behavior through the application of pain.
	And then his example had nothing to do with spanking, as I defined it.
	And none of his examples had anything to do with spanking.
	You know, rapes and libertarian prison guards and, you know, kids wandering off bridges and stuff.
	I sort of felt like it was like, okay, I guess we're going over here now because obviously the empirical effects of spanking are so bad that it must be a violation of the non-aggression principle.
	So it seems like we just didn't Actually talk about the topic much at all.
	And that's sort of what I pointed out at the end, you know, like this kid wandering towards the cliff or the edge of the bridge or whatever.
	I think it is still, I still argue, and I sort of thought about this afterwards.
	I couldn't come up in the fly with a really good analogy.
	The really good analogy is usually Make it clear and it doesn't really have anything to do with a spanking.
	I think the analogy if you inject the guy with the disorienting drug and he wanders towards a cliff edge supports that you have a higher moral standard towards that person.
	You must intervene because you've caused the situation in the same way as a parent.
	You must intervene because you have caused the situation by being such a bad parent your kid wants to kill himself.
	And so I think that the debate was a little confusing to me, and sometimes things are confusing because I don't understand something or I'm in the wrong, and I was certainly willing to sort of think about that and admit that, but I do, those would be sort of my responses to, I don't know if I'll do a separate video on it, but does that sort of help clarify at least sort of where I'm coming from?
	There's more, but that's sort of the stuff that's I think off the top of my head.
	Yeah, I mean, I thought your position was fairly well established in the debate.
	I just thought that Walter's argument was contradictory, because I think what he established himself was that this is not a principle.
	This physical invasion against a child is not a principle.
	And this guardianship status, I mean, his whole debate, I think what he kind of made obvious is that It's not about the amount of physical force that you use.
	It's about the context of how it's used.
	Anna, you pointed out an example of this at the very beginning, and he agreed.
	He talked about the urinal situation.
	And you gave the example, well, if you just kept on doing it for no reason, like if you just pick up your kid just because you like to make him scream and cry, just ha ha ha, then clearly there's something wrong with that.
	So what that kind of makes apparent to me is that the context of the situation is what determines whether or not one is acting in line with this kind of guardianship world that he was talking about.
	Yeah, and the guardianship role has higher moral standards to it, of course.
	I mean, I can go set fire to my own money, but I can't on money that I'm holding in trust for someone because I have a guardianship role.
	So basically, it was not a debate about the non-aggression principle and spanking.
	It was a debate about some very...
	Incredibly esoteric, weird examples that, you know, are kind of fun to play around with in our heads, but don't really have much to do with the fact that 80 to 90% of our parents are repeatedly spanking their children.
	And I don't think there's a lot of five-year-olds who try to jump off bridges.
	So, yeah, I mean, I thought it was an interesting academic discussion as far as those can be interesting, but it's a...
	It didn't really have much to do with the topic at hand, which, you know, maybe accidental may not be.
	But I think, you know, when you hear the fact, it's pretty hard to be pro-spanking or think that it's not a violation of the non-aggression principle because it has such negative effects on children.
	So anyway, those are sort of my thoughts about it.
	All right.
	Well, thank you.
	Thank you very much, and thanks everyone for your calls.
	I guess we are 20 minutes away from Isabella's birthday, but have yourself a great week, everyone, and thank you for all your support and kindness, and if you would like to show even more support and kindness, or maybe for your very first time, ooh, pop the PayPal cherry, you know you want to.
	It is fdrurl.com forward slash debate.
	Have a great week.

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