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Nov. 21, 2013 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

04:14:46

2537 A Forest of Blowjobs - The Longest Show in Freedomain Radio History - Wednesday Call In Show November 20th, 2013

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	Good evening.
	Welcome to It's the Wednesday Night Show, the show my daughter forgets about every single week.
	I'm upset I can't put her to bed.
	Hope you're doing well, everyone.
	I just want to share a majorly adorable moment.
	moment.
	So I took my daughter to a butterfly conservatory today.
	And she obviously loves it when the butterflies land on her.
	Hey, who doesn't?
	And although I find that when butterflies land on my head, it feels almost exactly the same as having a conscience.
	I mean, you know, as I imagine having a conscience would be.
	Anyway, she really wanted the butterflies to land on her.
	So she wore a shirt, of course, with lots of butterflies on it.
	And then she has these gems, these sort of plastic gems that we got for her and she decided to To tape the gems to her chest, to her arms, to her sides, to her belly, and so on.
	So we spent a goodly amount of time getting the gems on the tape and then taping them to her.
	And she basically looked about like the gayest Middle Ages knight that you could conceive of.
	And that actually seemed to work.
	Quite well.
	She had butterflies not only landed on her, but like stayed with her for like half an hour and all that kind of stuff.
	And of course, she warms the hearts of all that she met.
	And, you know, it's funny.
	You know, some people were saying, as they're saying, wow.
	And I said, yeah, she landed butterflies.
	You know, they're like, it's great that you let her do that.
	I just find that's completely strange.
	It's great that you let her do that, you know?
	Your wife is dressed in a red dress.
	It's great that as a husband you let her do that, isn't that?
	What a great husband to let his wife wear a red dress.
	Wow.
	Even though that is a sign of harlotry in 97% of the world's religions.
	Anyway, I just think it's kind of funny.
	I mean, it was nice to hear, I guess, but it's still kind of funny the way people are still thinking about childhood.
	Like, Like she's my possession to allow or not allow her to do something, you know?
	Anyway, it was a great day, and I just sort of wanted to share that little thing with you.
	I'd share a photo, but your head would explode from cuteness, and we would not want to be liable for that.
	Mike, apparently we have seven callers.
	Mike, still waiting for the mythical short caller.
	And let's get started with whoever is numero uno o set.
	All right, via phone, Kenny is coming up.
	Your favorite, the phone callers.
	Kenny, why do you hate my show so much?
	Why do you hate my show so much that we must have phone call quality in what could be you whispering into the brain of the world itself?
	So close that it also feels like the aforementioned conscience.
	How are you, Kenny?
	What can I do for you?
	I'm doing pretty good.
	I just had a couple of thoughts I wanted to share with you.
	I was wondering, you know, I've I've come pretty far away on my political views, and I would consider myself an anarcho-capitalist now.
	But I still wonder, you know, I know you basically are completely against the idea of voting, but I was wondering, what are your thoughts on, like, voting for, you know, like, the Libertarian Party here in the United States?
	I mean, they're basically minarchists, and it's not, you know, there's obviously still the difference, but Well, I mean, you don't have to ask me.
	You just have to look at the numbers.
	I mean, so this is like saying, if you really want it to rain...
	Steph, Steph, I really, really needed to rain, Steph.
	Do you think I should do a rain dance?
	And I'm like, hey, you know, I mean, if you want to do a rain dance, I guess it's decent exercise.
	It doesn't have any effect on the rain, but if it makes you feel better, why not?
	Just you have to accept that voting Libertarian and expecting it to shrink the size of the state is like doing a rain dance and hoping that the rain...
	You just have to look at the numbers, which is that I think except for one time in the early 80s, the Libertarian Party has barely cracked one half of 1% of the American voting population.
	I mean, these are just the facts.
	They've been working at it for 40 years, and they have yet to crack one half of 1% of the American voting population.
	And...
	Whether or not there are libertarians – and I think that libertarians vote probably more because they know that it's a third-party candidate.
	They vote more than the majority of the population.
	And so they're disproportionately represented.
	And the other thing too – I mean the reason you know that libertarian candidates are never going to be threatening the mainstream political establishment is because – Regular, verbally abusive, hatchet jobs are not performed on them in the media.
	You know, like Ron Paul was treated in the media like some kooky old uncle who believes that the Fed is controlling space aliens with brain control rays or something.
	He was no harm to anyone.
	I mean, if you look at what happened to Scott Walker in Wisconsin, Scott Walker received death threats regularly.
	He was shredded from In the media, someone wrote to his wife and said that he was going to gut his wife like a deer.
	You know, people wrote to him detailing the routes that his children took to school, saying their days were numbered, right?
	Because he – and what did he do?
	He said, well, maybe union members should pay a little bit more towards the costs of their pensions than they're currently doing, right?
	Which is like – I mean, in terms of the libertarian universe – That is like having one less star in a galaxy, 100 million light years away from the Earth.
	You'll know when libertarians have even a snowball chance in hell of achieving their agenda, when the entire media turns its baleful Medusa-like eye towards libertarian candidates, when it starts going through their garbage, when it starts making up stuff about their histories, when it starts getting court records that are supposed to be sealed about their divorces, Unsealed so that all their sorted little personal problems can come out.
	You'll know when that happens, but the great evils of the world, who generally use the media as their attack dogs and mouthpieces, don't even notice libertarianism.
	I mean, a few people will blog about it and so on.
	It has no chance whatsoever.
	And this is the great challenge.
	This is one of the reasons why, for me, getting involved in libertarian politics would be An integrity shredding event because if I were going to be getting involved in libertarian politics, I would either have to say to people who wanted to donate, your money will have no chance of changing the political landscape whatsoever, or I'd have to say we have a chance of winning.
	And now you could say, well, you know, we don't have a chance of winning, but it's a good chance to educate people, right?
	But libertarians have had hundreds of years to educate people and they have had 40 years of well-funded electoral politics in the United States.
	The Ron Paul campaign took in tens of millions of dollars and they say, well, it's for education.
	We get to educate people.
	Well, okay.
	I mean, I don't think it's the best way to go around educating people because I think the dangling of false hope in front of people And telling them that their political contribution might bring about tangible liberty in their lifetime, it's a lie.
	It's a lie because they've never cracked really more than half a percent of the US-electing electoral population.
	And so you either have to say to them, well, you know, we've been working this education angle for at least 40 years.
	You can go back to Barry Goldwater in the 1960s.
	Read Conscience of a Conservative.
	It's a libertarian manifesto.
	Elegantly written.
	He was a very skilled politician from Arizona.
	I just listened to the audiobook.
	You can get it at audible.com.
	And, you know, this was in the early 60s, and Ayn Rand got involved in that, and then Murray Rothbard tried creating an alliance with the radical left and the libertarians, and yeah, I mean, everybody's been working this stuff, and it still hasn't budged from half a percentage point or so.
	And so the idea that, you know, I don't know how much, 50, 60, 70, 80 million dollars has been sunk into this campaign...
	Starting 40 years ago to change the world through libertarian politics.
	And what has been achieved?
	Well...
	Fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty million dollars has been spent and the result has been that some people have really had a lot of fun playing politics.
	Some people have had some very decent incomes.
	Ron Paul is worth in the millions.
	And has it achieved anything that it's claimed to achieve?
	Well, of course not.
	Politics is just another government program and libertarian politics is just another government program.
	It promises you the moon and delivers nothing but losses.
	I mean financial losses, time losses, energy losses, optimism losses, hope losses, all these kinds of things.
	And I consider it vastly irresponsible for libertarians in politics to make claims that are not backed up by the data.
	What do libertarians always say about government programs?
	Well, they promise you the moon, they deliver the opposite, and they never get corrected.
	Nothing ever changes.
	In fact, when they fail, they say we need more resources.
	Well, what is libertarian politics?
	Promises you the moon, delivers the exact opposite.
	You're less free if you're involved in libertarian politics because you spent time, money, and energy doing something which does not advance your cause of freedom.
	That means you're less free than you were if you'd never gotten involved.
	And they've never figured out in 40 years why the numbers have barely budged.
	In terms of their voting record.
	Because the purpose is not to change the world.
	The purpose is to play politics and for pretty self-involved people to grab the media spotlight and make lots of pretty noises about liberty.
	But if you look at it from an actual fact standpoint, I come from the business world.
	I come from the business world.
	And that means I really don't care what people say.
	I only care about the facts.
	Libertarians can make all the claims they want.
	Oh, yeah, we're going to make real traction.
	There's a way in which we could just win this thing.
	Look at this straw poll where we got all the nerds to overload the web server.
	Look at this.
	I don't care about any of that.
	I care about their numbers.
	If their numbers were creeping up, I'd be on board.
	If they had gone from a tenth of a percentage point in 1970 to even 10% now, I'd say, whoa, that's impressive.
	That's impressive.
	But they haven't even crossed over to the point where evil people are caring enough about them to even start attacking them.
	And so it's just a basic fact.
	Now, I'll just sort of give you an alternative option.
	And the data for this was available in the early 1970s.
	So let's just say that a bunch of people sat down and said, you know, we really, really want to change the world.
	We really, really want to be free.
	And let's figure out...
	And libertarianism is a rational, compassionate, consistent, moral, logical, all the good things that you want from a social movement.
	And...
	They said, well, okay, let's sit down and let's figure out what we could do.
	So the first thing we need to do, let's pretend we're a business.
	Let's pretend we actually want to get shit done rather than play politics and make noise.
	So first of all, we would say that people have been trying to make the human race more rational for at least 2,500 years.
	Let's just go from Socrates onwards.
	People have been trying to make the human race more rational.
	And how's that been working out?
	Well...
	It's changed a bit.
	It's certainly changed a bit.
	It's changed in some pretty – we have fewer hereditary aristocrats.
	We have less slavery, at least less material slavery in terms of just directly owning people.
	But you could easily argue that that is not because people have found some big moral case but because the rulers have found that free-range serfs are far more profitable than directly-owned slaves.
	And so that's why this has occurred.
	But we now have more destructive governments, bigger governments, governments with more debt, governments that control the children.
	The majority of kids weren't educated by the state in the past, and now the vast majority of them are.
	So anyway, you say, well, it hasn't exactly been spectacular.
	It hasn't exactly been spectacular.
	In terms of just getting people to reason, rather than capitalism is advantageous to some people, it hasn't been spectacular.
	So we'd have to say, okay, well, what are the barriers to reason in the world?
	Well, it wouldn't take a huge amount of research to understand that You know, spanking and treating children as if they're chattel and beasts and treating them worse than you would even treat pets, that this is foundational as to why people can't reason.
	So a lot of the data was available, not nearly as much as now, but some of the data was certainly available in the 1970s.
	And the moral case would be there from the very beginning of libertarianism.
	Non-aggression principle, respect for self-ownership.
	They'd say, well...
	We have to implement the non-aggression principle.
	So where should we do that?
	And they'd find that spanking violates the non-aggression principle.
	It is not used in self-defense.
	And so they'd say, well, let's take all the money we would have spent on politics and just mount a massive education campaign to convince parents to not use aggression in raising their children.
	And if they had taken all of that money and they had focused intensely on an anti-spanking campaign, then they would have made real traction and we would be living in a completely different world about now.
	Instead, they want to play politics and waste time pounding lawn signs and buying advertisements and all this kind of bullshit and making noiseless platitudes in debates.
	But if they had taken all of their energies and said, okay, well, we're not against the state.
	I don't care about the state fundamentally.
	It's just one manifestation of violations of the non-aggression principle.
	And so we'd say, well, we can't get power without resources, and we can't get resources without vastly overstating what we're capable of, which is also known as lying.
	Every time you see a libertarian strategist or politician saying, you know, we have a chance to achieve real change, they're either delusory or they're lying.
	Neither one is a good sign of somebody who wants power or even to gain power, to strip power or something like that.
	And I want to say that again.
	It's really, really important.
	Somebody says to you, give me resources and I can reduce the power of the state over you.
	If they're involved in libertarianism, then either they don't know the history of libertarianism and its failure to achieve any substantial voting patterns, or they do know it, but they're lying to you.
	Now, if they don't know it, then that's ridiculous.
	It's wildly irresponsible.
	when you've got a 40-year history of something and you claim you're going to act in a way that completely is the opposite of that history and you haven't even studied the history then I mean you're just you're selling a pill with no testing that's just snake oil salesman and it's bullshit or they do know the history but they're not sharing it with you or they're not sharing with you how some radical change is going to occur I mean for libertarianism to gain the shot in the arm that Atlas Shrugged gave it and shot in the arm is as
	I mean, that's just a rocket booster, right?
	I mean, to have, according to a New York Times review of books, survey the second most influential book after the Bible to be Atlas Shrugged is massively, massively advantageous to a movement.
	The single greatest thing that ever happened to libertarianism was Atlas Shrugged.
	And what has come of it?
	Paul Ryan?
	I mean, this is terrible.
	This is ridiculous.
	So if they had not been lured in by the quicksand brain trap of politics, by the rabbit and the hare, right?
	Everybody wants to be the hare.
	It's like nobody's ever heard this story before.
	Slow and steady wins the race.
	I believe that slow and steady wins the race.
	I would rather have one child less spanked than one law repealed.
	Because the law that's repealed – well, first of all, it's never going to happen through libertarianism.
	And secondly, if the law is repealed, they'll just make another law or they'll just put it back next time someone else is in power.
	And so if libertarians had said the way to enact our philosophy is to focus on the most widespread violation of the non-aggression principle that people have the most control over, that would obviously be spanking.
	And there was research done after the Second World War about the negative effects of spanking, but you don't even need the research.
	You don't need research to find out that taxation is immoral.
	You don't need research to find out that rape is immoral.
	It's a violation of the non-aggression principle.
	Easy peasy.
	And if they had focused on that, if they had focused on collecting all of that money and spending all of that money and raising the awareness of treating children with respect, they would have been perfectly in accord with their Moral principles, the principles that they claim should drive libertarianism.
	They would have been perfectly in accord with it and they would have allowed people to actually change their lives, change the lives of their children.
	And they would be associated, as we associate the abolitionists who early advocated for the abolition of slavery long before it became even remotely popular, we view those people, and rightly so, we view those people as moral heroes.
	I mean the Quakers and the free thinkers and so on who Railed against the evil of slavery long before it became common knowledge.
	We'd say, wow, what incredible moral foresight to have railed against an evil that was universally accepted or almost universally accepted in the world that they lived in.
	To have railed against that long before anybody ever accepted it in general.
	How astounding.
	If we had demonstrated as a movement that foresight, that strength...
	That integrity.
	People would have been like, damn, that philosophy is powerful.
	They took up anti-spanking in the 70s.
	Now, I mean, that's still a little bit behind the times, right?
	Because in the 70s, Sweden outlawed spanking as a moral evil.
	But it still would have been pretty impressive.
	And, you know, I imagine through the last 40 years with significant efforts and so on, door to door, knocking and all that sort of stuff, tens of millions of dollars spent, all the stuff that they spent on those political campaigns, which basically drew people into the state and vaporized their life and emotional hope and money.
	Well, millions of children would have grown up without being spanked.
	If millions of children grew up without being spanked, my God.
	What a different world we would be living in now.
	See, children who grow up without being spanked, they're going to want freedom naturally.
	Won't be stressful, won't be a struggle, won't be ideological, won't be abstract.
	This is the way I grew up.
	Instead of teaching a population...
	That doesn't even want to learn English.
	Attempting to speak a Mandarin-speaking population English when they don't even want to learn English, what if we just can convince parents to teach their children English instead of Mandarin?
	Isn't that a better way to spread English instead of Mandarin?
	So, yeah, I mean, I charged the early libertarians with a massive failure of principle.
	With a massive failure of principle.
	And now, I mean, I've been urging libertarians to focus on spanking for years and years and years.
	I mean, Jesus, long before this show, even.
	And you just get looked at like you're crazy.
	You just...
	Well, what do you mean we can implement the non-aggression principle in our own lives with our own families and thereby change the future towards freedom?
	I want to repeal...
	This zoning law.
	And it's mad.
	And this is the great challenge.
	So yeah, go vote if you want to.
	I mean, have a rain dance if you want.
	But just tell people to treat their kids better.
	That's all.
	On your way.
	Sorry for the long speech.
	I hope that helps.
	To be honest with you, I've been watching this stuff for a while, and that's kind of what I figured you were pretty much going to say.
	I just wanted to make sure...
	But the main reason I brought it up was, you know, I myself, when I was younger and kind of out of my mind, I considered myself more or less a fascist, really.
	And, you know, over the years, as I got older and I started, you know, poking all little logic holes in the idea that the government, even if it was led by some kind of benevolent force, could actually do anything correctly.
	You know, I just kind of naturally evolved and it was...
	Ron Paul, when he ran back in 08, that kind of brought me over to the libertarian side of thinking, and then later on I ran into Adam Kokesh and then you, and that kind of brought me all the way over to anarcho-capitalism and volunteerism.
	So, I don't know.
	I understand exactly what you're saying, and I pretty much do agree with you, but at the same time, it brought me over, so sometimes I wonder if it's not a complete No, you're missing though.
	See, I'm sorry to interrupt.
	If it can be shown that people who support Ron Paul spank less than the majority, then yay Ron Paul!
	I mean, if he's a gateway drug to not hitting your children, then I think that's fantastic.
	I think that's fantastic.
	However, and I don't know, obviously, the statistics of Ron Paul supporters.
	I absolutely have no idea.
	But I will tell you this, that there's a very strong religious streak in libertarianism.
	In other words, they don't like the state because the state is secular, which undermines their irrational authority over their children.
	And fundamentalist Christians spank a lot more than the average parent.
	Of course.
	The more irrational the belief system, the more aggression is needed to pound those ideological nails through the eyes of your kids.
	So my concern is that since Ron Paul is himself a fundamentalist Christian, and since the topic of spanking does not seem to be...
	Well, I know it's not part of libertarianism at all.
	And...
	There's a lot of pretty fundamentalist Christians in the libertarian movement.
	I would imagine that libertarians spank perhaps even higher than average.
	If there's more fundamentalist Christians in libertarianism than there is in the general population around, then statistically libertarians spank more.
	Than the average.
	And if you take away aggression from a parent who has an irrational belief system, that irrational belief system will die.
	Because you cannot transfer the virus of irrationality without aggression.
	You can make a child cheer an empty iPad box as if there was an iPad in there only by scaring the living shit out of that child.
	And making that child completely terrified to express disappointment or frustration with getting an empty iPad box.
	And it's the same thing.
	You can only get kids to cheer heaven if you frighten the shit out of them with hell.
	And create a hell in terms of physical aggression.
	So, sorry.
	I just wanted to point out that the Ron Paul campaign, sure, it introduces people to To libertarianism and maybe it introduces them to anarcho-capitalism and maybe it introduces them to I don't know what.
	But if it doesn't get them to reject the non-aggression principle in their own lives and to actually stand up for what they can stand up for in their own lives.
	I mean, boy, you think it's challenging to talk about ending the Fed at a family dinner?
	You try talking about breastfeed your kids, stay home with your kids, be there for your kids, don't raise your voice with your kids, don't hit your kids, don't punish your kids, don't control your children, right?
	Try having those conversations.
	That is a grenade in the room of most families.
	The Fed can talk about that shit all day long.
	I mean, it doesn't change anything.
	And people might get upset, but it's all very abstract.
	But the real courage is not in politics.
	The real courage is in parenting.
	Go ahead.
	Well, yeah, exactly.
	I mean, I agree with everything you're saying.
	But, you know, I look at that kind of from my personal perspective in the sense that I was kind of like tapered, right?
	Like, at first I heard about Ron Paul, and that kind of brought me over to libertarianism.
	And then just through that, being in that group of people I found out about Adam Kokesh and then yourself, it kind of tapered me over.
	I guess the way I kind of look at it when I engage other people, because, for instance, I don't have any kids, so not hitting my kids, which is something I wouldn't do.
	I wouldn't ease on it to get my own children.
	But right now, there's nothing I can do as far as that front goes.
	Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute.
	There's nothing you could do as far as that goes?
	Well, I mean, I could talk to other people about it, and I do.
	Okay, do you know anybody who has kids?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Well, I usually talk to them and I'll bring it up and I'll talk to them about it.
	But I don't want to, and this is what I'm trying to get at, is I'm not sure if it's always a good idea to be very forceful with it simply because if I'm forceful with it and they reject it, then nothing will change.
	But if it's something over time, I keep bringing it up, but I do it in a kind of gentler way.
	At least in other cases, I have found that it's more effective when I do it that way.
	And usually, the idea that I'm trying to show them, it usually takes people a while to warm up to it.
	Oh, yeah, look, absolutely.
	Look, these are questions of strategy, and I mean, I have no problem with that.
	But when you said, there's nothing I can do about it, that's different from what you're saying now.
	Right.
	Well, what I meant when I said there's nothing I can do about it was that there's nothing I can do about it because I don't have a child.
	So as far as my direct interaction with a child of mine, which I do not have, there's nothing I can do about it.
	But I mean, I do talk about it and whatnot.
	But sorry, I just don't want to have that association that's saying, like, you can't be against rape unless you're a woman.
	And who's been raped?
	Right?
	You can't be against racism unless you're a minority.
	You can't be against wife abuse unless you're married, right?
	Or you can't do anything about it.
	Well, of course you can, right?
	I get that, but I'm agreeing with you.
	I'm saying that when I said that, I misspoke.
	Okay.
	There is obviously something I can do about it.
	Yeah, and look, I want to clarify that for other people, right?
	Because this is a show for everyone.
	So I just want to clarify that for other people in case people heard that and didn't understand or whatever.
	Yeah, I definitely misspoke on that, yeah.
	All right.
	So I hope that...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah.
	For me, what I'm trying to get at was – because I kind of want your opinion on more of the strategic idea of instead of going, you know, when I meet somebody and they sound – they seem kind of interested in some of the ideas I express, as far as free market and volunteerism and all that, if you think it's a good idea to kind of be a bit more libertarian, minarchist first, and then as they kind of get used to those ideas, Go back to more of the anarcho-capitalism through volunteers and stateless society type stuff.
	Well, there's no answer to that, I think.
	How should you best communicate the ideas of liberty?
	It certainly has a lot to do with listening first, right?
	You listen to what's important to people and point out a principle.
	Everybody knows someone who wanted to start a business and found that the regulatory burdens and licenses and requirements were just unbearable, right?
	Like John Stosser was writing this article about a guy who did magic tricks for kids and he had to submit a report on his rabbit and what was going to happen to his rabbit if there was an earthquake happening.
	Or if there was a flood, you know, exactly how his rabbit was going to be taken care of and he had to write exams.
	I mean, if you want to be a tour guide, you've got to write these very tough exams.
	I mean, it's all just ridiculous, right?
	And so, yeah, you talk to someone like that and say, yeah, there's a problem.
	There's this thing called regulatory capture.
	Big companies have legal departments and they like creating barriers to smaller companies who are going to compete with them.
	The dinosaurs always want to squish the mammals, all that kind of stuff, right?
	But if you tie it back to a principle, I mean, if you're not a good tour guide, people aren't going to want to compete.
	People aren't going to want to take your tours, right?
	I mean, the market takes care of all of that.
	Or somebody complains about healthcare costs and say, well, you know what's funny is, you know, they charge you like $400 for an aspirin and stuff like that.
	And say, yeah, you know, it's funny because if there was a business where you could charge someone $400 for an aspirin, you'd think everybody would be trying to get into it, right?
	I mean, why don't you and I start a hospital where we can sell an aspirin for $400?
	We say, well, as soon as you do, you realize that there are these, one of the few aptly named acronyms in the government, this certificate of need or CON or CON, which is why it should be the Department of Public Education or DOPE. But, yeah, these certificates of need where you have to prove that the neighborhood needs a hospital and that it's not going to infringe on any other existing hospital's business.
	Well, imagine that.
	Just imagine that.
	Imagine that.
	Imagine if Starbucks had to operate that way to prove and it was never going to take away any other coffee, a single coffee from any other coffee shop.
	I mean it would be ridiculous, right?
	And so just mention that and obviously that's violence.
	Like they'll come in and they'll take wrecking balls to the hospital you're building if you haven't filled out this paperwork.
	It always comes down to someone using aggression.
	And there's so much that we can't see about how society could be because there's this big ugly wall of regulation in the way.
	Like, they're passing a new regulation these days every 26 minutes, for God's sakes.
	Every 26 minutes.
	And none of the old ones get taken away, right?
	Of course not.
	It's just this one more mosquito to the giant vampire that eats your blood, but so slowly that you feel like you're just getting tired of going to sleep, right?
	So it is tragic.
	You can bring these things up however you like.
	I mean, I think it's always worth saying, yeah, I understand.
	That's incredibly frustrating.
	This is what happens when blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	And then, you know, it's a violation of the non-aggression principle.
	Oh, what's the non-aggression principle?
	Well, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	Some examples include, you know, taxation and with the war on drugs and spanking and so on and say, oh, war on drugs, right?
	And then you talk about that or, oh, spanking, you know, talk on that.
	Right?
	So, yeah, I mean, it's definitely a listening and a phishing expedition, but to empathize with the frustration and then to talk about the solution is interesting.
	And the other thing I wanted to mention, because this has come up a lot, not so much recently, but Ron Paul, you know, it's easy to look at the visible benefits, right?
	And I just – I'm going to do something on Bitcoin later because it really pisses me off when people talk about how Bitcoin – It's not backed by anything.
	Gold is backed by gold.
	And Bitcoin is not backed by anything, which is just retarded.
	I mean, you know, we have to do better.
	And I agree with you that some people come to freedom through libertarianism, through Ron Paul, blah, blah, blah, for sure.
	But that's just the visible stuff.
	That's like saying, look at this government program created 100 jobs.
	Well, what about all the jobs that were created because the government took the money?
	And is it sustainable and is it, you know, whatever, right?
	So the entire art of intelligent thinking, and again, I hope I'm not, I know I'm not calling you unintelligent.
	I'm just sort of reminding you of this, which you know very well in economics.
	Like if I said that, you'd say, well, of course, right?
	But it's not to look at the visible benefits but the hidden costs, right?
	The art of economic thinking, which I would argue is just philosophical thinking, is not to look at The short term and the visible, but the long term and the invisible.
	And sure, people came to Murray, Rothbard, Jesus through Ron Paul.
	But how many people looked into Ron Paul and said, oh, so this guy believes in all this libertarian stuff.
	I can't judge all that libertarian stuff.
	I mean, that's pretty complex and that would require a lot of effort.
	And most people, what they do when they look at a thinker who's new and who doesn't conform to their prejudices, what they want is to find an out.
	How can I just dismiss this person so I don't have to examine their belief system?
	And that's not a bad thing to do at all.
	I mean, if we see, you know, five people outside a restaurant throwing up violently, we don't sit there and say, well, I'm sure they're out of E. coli now, and the next meal will probably be really good.
	We're like, ooh, maybe I'll just keep looking, right?
	And that's sort of the poisoning the well thing, right?
	And that's understandable.
	So people say about Ayn Rand, well, you see, she took Social Security and blah-de-blah.
	She took whatever, right?
	Medicaid when she got sick and all that.
	And therefore, I can dismiss all her arguments, right?
	Now, you'll notice that They don't do this with other people, right?
	I mean, Marx complained about the exploitation of the underclasses, the proletariat, and he had sex with his maid while he was married and then threw her out on the street to suffer God knows what god-awful fate when she got pregnant.
	Now, if you really were concerned, I mean, that's far more egregious, far more egregious than anything Ayn Rand did in her entire life.
	I say, well, Ayn Rand had an affair.
	Well, Jesus, she didn't have an affair with someone who was economically dependent on him and didn't throw this person out to probably die when that person got pregnant.
	So if this were applied consistently, there'd be no Marxism and 100 million plus people would – probably 150 million people plus would now be still alive as opposed to dying.
	So if you want to find a way to dismiss someone's thoughts, most people when they're confronted with something that is challenging to their beliefs, just try and find a way out by – By slander or whatever, right?
	But it's very selective, right?
	Marxism appeals to a lot of people's resentful prejudices, and therefore nobody even knows that Marx spanked his maid, tossed her out into the streets probably to die with his offspring.
	People like what Jean-Jacques Rousseau had to say about parenting, so they kind of ignore the fact that he had four children with his mistress that he left at the doors of one of the most savage orphanages.
	He just left them locked in the door and ran away.
	In Paris, right?
	I mean, to be beaten and starved and probably die and all this, right?
	I mean, just all that usual crap, right?
	So if you want to find dirt on people's lives that allows you to dismiss their ideas, I mean you can certainly do that, right?
	For sure, right?
	Google my name and find the same stuff, right?
	That's a way to give people an out.
	Now, there's some stuff you can control and some stuff you can't control.
	Some people will slander you and that's fine.
	That's just the natural ebb and flow of the change of ideas.
	At least it's slander, not hemlock.
	This is the grand progress of the human species.
	Now, unfortunately though, people who come across Ron Paul's ideas do a quick search and they say, oh, he's a fundamentalist Christian who denies evolution and he's really into libertarianism.
	So we don't know all of the people who now associate libertarianism with a denial of one of the most widely validated biological theories in history.
	And fundamentalist Christianity, which is definitely on the wane, slow though it is to die, in the United States.
	So we don't know how many people have been driven away.
	I mean certainly if I wanted to invent someone who would discredit a movement, I would invent someone who claimed to have a rational basis for his ideas but then believed in invisible sky ghosts who created people out of clay and then associated himself with a particular idea set.
	I mean, that would be about as great a sabotage as you could make to a movement, right?
	Do you think that's what actually happened in his case?
	What do you mean?
	Do you think Ron Paul legitimately believes the things he was saying as far as the libertarian beliefs and all that?
	Oh, I do.
	I mean, I have no reason to believe that he's any kind of nasty character at all.
	There's a lot that I like about the guy.
	There really is.
	I mean, I think he's a great advocate for some ideas that I believe in.
	It's just that there are not nearly as many people, particularly young people, who are fundamentalists these days.
	I mean, up here in Canada, religion by the generations is going from two-thirds among the older to one-half among the middle-aged to one-third among the young.
	So, no, I think that he's a good guy with a good heart.
	I really believe that.
	And obviously, he is religious.
	Now, that, of course, is to some degree de rigueur for American politics, right?
	Yeah.
	The prejudice against atheists is truly staggering.
	And this is why it's always so ridiculous and fundamentally humorous to me when Christians cry victim.
	We're being victimized.
	You're just bashing Christianity.
	I mean the prejudice against atheists in society is truly staggering.
	And you simply cannot...
	I think Vladimir Nabokov said this.
	You cannot show a successful romance between a black man and a white woman and you cannot show an atheist in political power in America.
	You can write about anything else.
	You can't show those two things.
	What is he going to do if he's an atheist?
	If he openly states that he's an atheist?
	Well, he's doomed.
	He's just doomed.
	He's never going to get anywhere.
	I think it was Ted Cruz.
	I checked this out.
	Somebody said it was a human site.
	I'm not sure what it was.
	Ted Cruz's dad recommended putting atheists in camps.
	Not those fun summer camps, right?
	But this is – and I've got a whole video about this called The Hatred of Atheists, which is on my YouTube channel at freedomainradio.com.
	Sorry, youtube.com forward slash freedomainradio.
	But the prejudice faced by atheists is truly staggering, and this is just a reality of politics.
	I mean, how on earth, even if I was interested in getting into politics, which I'm not, how on earth would I answer the question?
	They'd ask me, do you believe in God?
	I'd say, well, I'm like you.
	I don't believe in gods.
	You know, there are 10,000 gods and you reject 9,999 of them.
	I'd just do one more.
	I'm with you on Zeus and Thor and...
	You know, Baal and Set and Asmodeus and Beelzebub, and I'm with you with all...
	Yeah, these are all funny stories, you know?
	I'm with you.
	So...
	Yeah, so I mean, it's just important to see the unseen costs.
	Listen, unless you have another pressing one, I've got to move on to the next caller, but I certainly appreciate you bringing this up.
	I just want to bring one quick thing to your attention.
	Speaking of the Libertarian Party...
	On the 18th, I think, this month, November, they actually posted a link to one of your videos where you were talking about Jon Stewart and the 12 questions, I think, about libertarianism.
	They actually posted that on their Facebook page.
	Yeah, and I like it.
	I mean, I chat with the libertarians.
	Look, these are arguments of general policy.
	Each individual person, pretty nice.
	You know, I meet Christians, some of them pretty nice people.
	Attacking the ideas is not attacking the person.
	I've spoken at libertarian events.
	I like libertarians.
	They certainly are much closer to my heart than most people.
	But I have significant disagreements about how you expend resources to achieve freedom.
	It doesn't mean I don't like the people as individuals.
	I'm sure I would have a perfectly convivial dinner with Ron Paul in an alternate universe where that would occur.
	But I just wanted to mention that.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Well, thanks very much.
	I appreciate that.
	Thank you.
	And let's move on.
	All right, Nader.
	You're up next, Nader.
	Go ahead.
	Hey, how's my sound?
	Hi.
	Is that N-A-D-I-R? It's N-A-D-E-R. It's actually Nader.
	Okay, so like Ralph, not like the opposite of Zenith.
	Okay, got it.
	Sure.
	Yeah.
	Thanks for giving me some of your time today.
	So, how are you doing?
	Oh, listen.
	It's my absolute pleasure and thank you so much for calling in.
	It is really an honor to speak to listeners.
	Thank you.
	Well, so today I guess I have a lot of different things that I would be interested in talking about, but I guess I'll go with today some points that a co-worker of mine was making.
	He's an anarcho-syndicalist, and we were discussing some of these ideas.
	So when we were talking about property rights, Uh, since property rights come from the fact that we own ourselves and the product of our labor is also ours, we were talking about land as, like, uh, physical land, like a field or something, as, um, legitimate property, since, uh, the earth itself isn't the product of anyone's labor.
	I was wondering what you're, uh, so obviously like a garden would be, or a A field that you plant a bunch of corn in, that would be yours to do with what you please, but just, you know, 40 acres of forest, how can someone own that if it's not the product of their labor?
	Well, I mean, my question then would be, well, let's say that I said you own 40 acres of forest, but you could never visit it.
	You could never sell it.
	You could never develop it.
	You could never photograph it.
	You could never build a house there.
	You could never plant any crops.
	You could never cut down any trees.
	You could never use it in any kind of way.
	Then the person would say, well, then why bother, right?
	Like, you're giving me this fictitious ownership thing, which means I can't alter it in any way, shape or form, right?
	Sorry, go ahead.
	His point was that...
	No, no, no.
	Look, hang on.
	Sorry.
	This is just the beginning of the argument.
	That's not a clincher.
	So the purpose of that is to say, well, what is ownership all about?
	I mean, if I lock you in my basement and I say, you have self-ownership.
	You are chained to the wall in my basement.
	You have self-ownership.
	And I don't give you any food.
	What's going to happen?
	Obviously, I would starve.
	Yeah, you would die.
	You would starve and you would die.
	Do you have self-ownership?
	Absolutely.
	Can you feed yourself?
	Can you do anything about it?
	No.
	You're dead, right?
	You're going to die.
	Let me just build the case here a little bit.
	It's a very important question, right?
	So, the purpose of self-ownership is efficacious action.
	If you deny someone efficacious action, they don't actually have self-ownership.
	I mean, if I stick a gun in your ribs and say, give me your wallet or I shoot, you might choose to give me your wallet, but there's still a crime that has occurred, even though you still have self-ownership and you can choose to take the risk of getting shot.
	So, there is a necessity...
	Of consequences that is involved in ownership.
	It's not a consequentialist argument, but the purpose of ownership is transformation.
	If you cannot transform, you do not own.
	If I can't change the forest, I do not own the forest.
	And we are all in the process of starving to death, of dying of thirst, right?
	All the time.
	And we transform ourselves into beings that are not doing that by eating and drinking, right?
	And so even the act of staying alive is transformative since, as natural organisms, we are constantly asphyxiating until we have our next breath.
	Like when I was a kid, I used to like swimming on the bottom of the swimming pool or the lake or whatever.
	And it's hard to do because, you know...
	What do you do when you want to swim deep?
	You take a big deep breath, right?
	And you then go to the bottom.
	But the problem is you've got no oxygen.
	So you have to kind of swim down, let little bubbles of air out and that kind of stuff, right?
	It's a trick.
	And so if you ever want to know how quickly you are, how quickly and close you are to asphyxiating, just let out all your air and don't breathe in another breath.
	You know, within 10-15 seconds, you're feeling mighty uncomfortable.
	So we are all Dying and we're propping ourselves up with food and air and water and so on, right?
	So we are transforming ourselves into staying alive simply by exercising self-ownership, food, water, shelter, air and so on.
	And so to own something is to transform it.
	And so this is what's really, really important.
	Let's say the 40 acres, I want to clear them and make a farm.
	I'm sure your friend would agree.
	That I own the farm and I own the crops.
	Would he agree with that?
	Like once you've transformed the land?
	Absolutely, yes.
	Right.
	Does he understand that nobody will transform the land unless he's guaranteed ownership of the product?
	In other words, you get the 40 acres so that you can build the farm.
	It's the farm that is the ownership that is in question.
	Because the 40 acres that you cannot develop is not ownership.
	It's all about creating the crops or creating the nature reserve or creating the house or cutting down the trees for lumber.
	So then in – In Ancapistan, it would be not allowed for someone to just own a big old field that they don't have any plans for, like the next year or something like that?
	They could pay a couple thousand dollars, get their acres, and then just let it sit dormant?
	Well, I don't know.
	I have no idea how things will work in a state of freedom.
	I – you know, there's something which was developed through common law when it comes to – and I know this because I did this when I was in my late teens, right?
	There's – you claim staking, right?
	You go out and how do you establish a claim over a square kilometer of land?
	Well, what you do is you go in a – you blaze a trail in a kilometer square and you nail to a tree the little tags which says who you are and then for a certain amount of time, I don't know if it's a year or two, you have ownership of that claim.
	Of the mineral rights on that square kilometer.
	Now, if you find a lot of gold and you start digging up a mine, then obviously the ownership becomes yours in perpetuity.
	If you don't do anything with it for a certain amount of time, and you put the time stamp on your tags on the corner of trees, if you don't do something with the land within a certain amount of time, it reverts back to an unowned state.
	Now, that's what was developed sort of in common law, so I assume it's not a bad solution.
	But, yeah, if you want to buy...
	A piece of land and let it lie fallow?
	Then yeah, I'm sure you can do that.
	And some people will do that.
	Like if I have a house that's 200 feet from the lake and I want to oversee the lake, I'm going to buy the land between myself and the lake.
	And I'm not going to do anything with it because maybe I just want to have the lake through the trees and just want to leave it whatever natural.
	That's great.
	We can do that.
	You can do that if you want.
	But it's just really important.
	The ownership of the land is completely immaterial.
	The only thing that matters is what is produced from the land, what the land is transformed into.
	And transforming land into a perpetual state of a great view is perfectly fine too.
	Then what is being consumed is the land not changing.
	But if somebody's willing to invest in that, that's perfectly fine.
	But it's all about the crops.
	It's all about the view.
	It's all about the wood.
	It's all about the home.
	Owning the land is the prequel to doing something with the land which will not occur if the land is owned.
	It's ownership of the farm which won't exist unless you have clear title to the land.
	Does that make any sense?
	It's bringing things into existence that otherwise would not be brought into existence.
	If no one can own any land, there will be no farms.
	If no one can own any land, there will be no houses.
	And so it is the houses and the farm that is what reserving the land is for.
	No, that was a sufficient answer, I think.
	Thank you.
	Could I maybe bring up another thing he was talking about with regards to private property, I guess?
	Sure.
	He was also talking about how even in a free society there would still need to be commons.
	I don't know if this is true or not, but he was talking about things like air and groundwater.
	I think those were his two big ones.
	Because if you buy a plot of land and you've got a house on it, there's still a You don't know what, like, underneath the earth there's all the groundwater, so if you poison something on your square of dirt, it could end up poisoning something miles and miles away, you know?
	Sure, but why, I'm not sure why that requires commons.
	I mean, if I pour arsenic into my...
	Ground, and then my neighbor gets sick, I'm just responsible.
	I mean, I'm criminally responsible, right?
	Oh, yeah, that's just property damage.
	Yeah, yeah, for sure.
	All-person damage, right?
	No, that makes perfect sense.
	And then, if there is a little more time, he gave me a book by R. Buckminster Fuller, which had an interesting concept of objective price, which I felt like the zeitgeisters didn't quite expound upon very well, and I thought R. Buckminster Fuller had an interesting idea of it.
	Alright.
	His thing was that the Earth receives a daily energy income from the Sun, which is calculable, and everything on the Earth is made up of that energy, and everything produced requires that energy.
	And so...
	Oil, say, would be the product of millions of years of pressure and energy from the sun, and so it would be vastly valuable.
	So that's all things that are calculable, and so the objective price would be based on how much energy it costs to produce whatever object.
	I don't know if that has any impact on the ideas we're talking about, or if that's just invalid at all.
	Do you have any ideas on that?
	I mean, I don't know.
	If I choose to build a house out of lead, it's going to take a lot of energy to produce, right?
	Because lead is really heavy shit, right?
	So, does that mean that it's more valuable than a house made out of brick?
	It costs more energy to produce?
	No.
	No, I mean, of course, stuff costs energy, and energy is the input, right?
	Energy is part of the input cost of whatever it is that you're producing.
	But...
	The input cost can only be measured relative to the practical desire enacted through price on the output side, right?
	So if I decide to make a car by hand, right, with things that I find in my backyard, I might work at that for 10 years.
	Massive amounts of labor cost, right?
	Who is going to want a car built out of the Cricket bodies and bits of broken pottery and whatever I find in my stones, right?
	Nobody's going to want it.
	Maybe, I don't know, it's a curiosity or something.
	But there's a massive amount of energy.
	And I can say, well, listen, listen, wait a minute, wait a minute here.
	When I... Oh, let me tell you a story.
	I'll tell you a story.
	This is a factual story, right?
	So when I was first starting out in business, the very first job I ever had, this is long before I had a company and all this.
	The first job I ever had was building a little system To help an accountant with his customers.
	And I kind of went hog wild.
	I was a kid, right?
	Basically, I was in my early 20s.
	I kind of went hog wild, built a whole bunch of stuff, right?
	And then I sat down with him and I said, here's my bill, man.
	And he's like, whoa.
	That's like double what I wanted to pay for this.
	And I literally sat down and I was like, well, I'll get back to you on that.
	And I sat down and said, well, I spent eight hours doing this.
	I looked at my notes.
	I spent all this time doing this.
	And I was adding up my hours as if that was somehow going to make him pay.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Now, I didn't have much excuse for that because I was already an objectivist.
	But that's just a fundamental misunderstanding.
	I spent a lot of time on it.
	Therefore, you should pay me.
	That's the labor theory or something, right?
	No.
	I had stuff.
	He would rather not have whatever I built or at least half of it.
	He'd rather have half off whatever I built than pay me the money.
	That's his choice.
	And so he said, no, I'm not going to take this stuff.
	I'm sorry you spent time on it, but I didn't ask for it.
	I'm not going to pay you.
	And I was upset, of course, because I was a kid, right?
	But I accepted it.
	I was like, well, you know, he doesn't want it.
	I mean I gave it to him anyway because what the hell was I going to – disabling it was going to take even more time.
	But yeah, I mean if he didn't want to pay for it, then that labor did not have value to him.
	The products of it did not have value to him.
	He was perfectly right in doing that.
	And I was wrong in attempting to charge him for something that I had worked hard on that he did not ask for.
	Again, thanks for the good discussion on that.
	I guess that's all I'd like to talk about today.
	I'll turn it over to the next caller, but I'd just like to say to any listeners who haven't read UPB or RTR to get on that.
	UPB, E-C-S-A-B-C. Well, thank you.
	I appreciate that.
	And do remember, not you, because I'm here, FDRURL.com forward slash donate.
	If you find the books of value, they are the product.
	Of 30,000 hours plus of philosophy and history and education and writing style and all that kind of stuff.
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	Thank you.
	Thank you very much.
	Nice stuff.
	Let's move on.
	All right, Daniel, you're up next today.
	Go ahead, Daniel.
	Hey there, Steph.
	How are you?
	I'm well, well, well.
	How are you doing, my friend?
	Very good.
	It's good to talk to you again.
	Again?
	Oh, yes, I remember you.
	No, I don't.
	When did we talk?
	I think it was like a month ago or so.
	We talked about the merits of marriage.
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay, what's up?
	Did you get married?
	Are you divorced already?
	Yeah, I went through that whole thing.
	Well, I thought I'd talk to you about a totally different topic today, although obviously I could continue to talk about that one.
	But I've heard you use the word before, and I'll just throw a quick, I'll throw the question at you right away.
	So, what does the word spirituality mean to you?
	Well, to me the word spirituality means the ineffable combination of all that is human and all that is experienced.
	And so I don't – I mean I've used the word spiritual at times.
	I think it's not a terrible word for – What experiencing life as a human being is.
	You know, there is glory, excitement, terror, wonder, thrill, fear, love, hatred, sex, dreams, passions, goals, stumbling blocks, frustrations, aging, death, birth.
	I mean, there's just so much that goes into being alive.
	Calling it consciousness?
	Well, I don't know so much about that.
	I mean, there's stuff that I go through.
	That doesn't have much to do with consciousness.
	I mean, dreaming is a very powerful part of my existence.
	It's part of my consciousness, like my whole brain thing, but it's not necessarily part of my consciousness, like my conscious mind.
	So I don't know what word to use when talking about the sum total of human experience.
	So spiritual to me is not a bad word.
	But I mean I sort of wish there were better ones.
	Oh, yeah, by the way, so I was just giving the speech at the University of Toronto on the weekend.
	Thanks, students for liberty.
	It was really great.
	And a woman came up with a great – I sort of put this call out for a word that is used for evil profits, like for stuff you make money on in a semi-fascistic way like a military-industrial complex.
	You can make money out of it, but it's kind of evil.
	She said spoils rather than profit, and I think that is downright brilliant.
	I can't believe I never thought of it except that there are – Many people out there who have better insights than I do on certain things.
	So I think that's just unqualifiedly brilliant.
	And I'm going to try and use that as consistently as possible.
	Spoils rather than profit.
	I like that.
	So yeah, I think it's a word that I can drop in.
	Of course, I don't believe it has anything to do with any rank contradictions like immaterial consciousness, which is like gravity without mass, right?
	And nothing like that.
	but it's not a bad word to talk about the whole total of human experience.
	You know, like Oprah the other day was talking about how atheists cannot experience wonder, right?
	Now, so my argument is what she calls wonder.
	Atheists would probably call confusion.
	But to me, the great and awe-inspiring stuff in the universe is the stuff that fits together.
	It's the stuff that fits together in a consistent way.
	That to me is the most amazing stuff.
	And she thinks she's concerned about what atheists don't experience.
	I would be concerned about what she doesn't experience, like integrity, like consistency, like rationality, like understanding, like a consistency of beliefs across a wide variety of spheres.
	But of course, anyone who's Upset that Barack Obama has not included her more in his inner circle is not somebody who's going to be that interested in rational virtues.
	But anyway, does that help at all?
	Yeah, no, that's awesome.
	I wasn't really sure what you would say about it.
	You know, you mentioned consciousness and ineffable consciousness, which is interesting because those are both words in my notes.
	But the last thing you said, to me, really rang true.
	It's the things that fit together that are some, I guess, the most powerful things in our lives.
	And there's not really a way to describe that power.
	Yeah, so, I mean, when I look at my daughter...
	I'm sometimes intensely aware that she's checking in because I'm checking out, right?
	She gets to come in through the indoor because I am on a conveyor belt heading for the outdoor, right?
	Now, that is a pretty powerful feeling that she's only alive because I'm going to die and I'm only alive because my mother and father are going to die.
	We all want to be the exception to the rule.
	We all want thou shalt not steal and then to collect taxes.
	We all strive to invent a rule and exempt ourselves.
	Because if we can pull that off, that's about the most powerful thing that we can do in terms of resource allocation.
	And it's the same thing with mortality.
	We all want to live forever.
	But of course the only reason we're alive is because people die.
	If nobody ever died, there'd be no need for birth, right?
	So we'd never come to be.
	So that's the deal.
	That's the price.
	And when you get that at a very fundamental level, that you're only alive because you're going to die, that you have only come to be because you will not be, that you have only been assembled because time and the hands of biology will strictly disassemble you over time.
	Well, that's a very powerful thing to think about, a very powerful thing to experience.
	And it makes parenting kind of a little bit bittersweet at times, right?
	I love this child with all my heart.
	I'm incredibly happy to have her in my life.
	But it is a short and daily reminder that my time will come when I will be fighting for breath in a hospital bed and the next breath simply will not come.
	And then I will fall down the tunnel of time Like everybody else before me and the unique experience of my existence will be flushed down the sewer of biology along with everybody else and there will be no arms to catch me and there will be no friends to meet and there will be no more songs to sing and there will be no dreams from which I will awaken.
	And that is a very powerful thing to think about.
	And that is something that when you really get that at a fundamental level, and I don't always.
	I mean, like everyone else, I get distracted by stupid shit and sometimes not so stupid shit.
	But this is a conveyor belt.
	We can run further forward or we can sort of try and dance back, but it will always overtake us.
	And when you get that, where does that very powerful feeling Of the fact that you are catapulted from womb to grave and you can writhe and dance all you want in midair but the splat of your landing into the headstone will be the same at the end no matter what.
	When you get that and you process that and you make your life's decisions based on that and you hoard your love and spend your gold based on that understanding that we are In a sky flight trajectory from vagina to hole, from hole to hole, right?
	From birth to grave.
	When you really get that and that conditions how you fly in the brief span between going up and plummeting down, what do we call that?
	I don't know.
	I don't know what to call that.
	But I can't quite say it's an operation of consciousness.
	Like thinking of an elephant or adding and subtracting in my mind.
	That is a very sort of powerful and deep and essential grasping of mortality, which is really a fundamental to what it is to be a human being.
	And, of course, I would argue that it is fundamental to living a life of meaning and purpose and power and virtue.
	And, of course, since my brush – and it was more than a brush this summer with a potentially fatal disease.
	It is something that I have been thinking of.
	You know, like I fell through – I fell towards a grave turned out to be a hologram and I got some more time.
	Wow.
	Wow.
	How am I going to spend it?
	Well, one of those things is talking to you and the world and the future.
	Yeah.
	Well, I guess one of the reasons I bring it up is because, for me, I've had a journey which I can only describe as spiritual.
	I'm sure everyone has.
	But what you said, it's things like serendipity or meaningful coincidences in my life that makes me question sometimes absolute empiricism.
	You're in the thought business.
	It seems to me that in our lives it goes thought-word-action.
	So actually thought precedes physical manifestation.
	And I wonder, when I study physics, as I have, and string theory and quantum mechanics and things like that, it seems to fit together with that idea that existence itself may have been created in that sequence Sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt.
	I just want to make sure I understand.
	Your idea is...
	It was thought?
	So how was it that you gave three in a row?
	I just want to make sure I remember them.
	It was thought, action, experience?
	How did it go?
	Thought, word, and action.
	I mean, you can break it down other ways, but...
	But that's – sorry, and I just – you have to be strictly scientific with this stuff.
	And that doesn't mean that we can't talk about the ineffable or the spiritual.
	But what I want to talk about is – maybe it's different for you.
	For the vast majority of people, that's not how it goes.
	What happens is, for the vast majority of people, it's impulse, action, justification – No, I mean, this is well understood scientifically.
	You have an impulse that arises out of your fight-and-flight mechanism.
	You act without intercepting that impulse, and then you create a story afterwards that justifies whatever you just did, whatever action you just took.
	Right?
	So, a child disobeys a parent.
	The parent hits the child because the parent feels angry.
	The parent hits the child, and then the parent...
	Explains to the child why the parent had to hit the child when the parent is in fact explaining to herself or himself why the impulsive action is actually moral.
	And when people have a discord between their ex post facto justifications for their impulsive actions, they feel uneasy and they feel resentful and they feel upset and they feel angry because Their justification for their emotional impulses is being challenged,
	and they either then need to change what it is that they do to conform with the new argument or the new understanding, or, which is much more likely, they have to find a way of dismissing the new argument, which is again why we talk about Ayn Rand took Social Security and therefore...
	The non-aggression principle is false.
	It's obviously ridiculous.
	But you see, language and philosophy, philosophy in particular, Arose out of two basic impulses and they're both sort of two sides of the same coin.
	The first is that moral arguments arose to reduce competition for evil people, right?
	So if you can convince other people not to steal, they'll be more productive and there'll be fewer thieves around.
	So if you can convince other people not to steal and then you can invent a different word for what you do, say called taxation or tithe or whatever it is, right?
	Then you can profit enormously.
	So people who could invent Two things.
	Convincing moral universals that excluded themselves without breaking the universality, which is completely insane, right?
	I mean, you go to a science conference and you say, all mammals are warm-blooded, and then you introduce a toad as a mammal, and everyone sits there and looks and says, yes, all mammals are warm-blooded.
	That toad is definitely not warm-blooded, but of course it's a mammal, right?
	I mean, there's a special kind of madness that What human beings are addicted to that is necessary for that kind of nonsense to occur.
	So if you can invent a moral rule, get everyone else to accept it, and the only reason they will accept it is because it's universal.
	If you can get everyone to believe a moral rule and then create a magical exception for yourself, Man, you are a way to the races.
	That is the most profitable thing that you can do.
	And people who were very good at spinning convincing bullshit of universals with unconscious exceptions rose to the top of the social hierarchy, whether they were kings or priests or both.
	And so morals were invented to serve the exploitive interests of immoral people who realized that by getting people to Believe in the universality of a moral principle which excluded those in charge.
	Well, I mean, and this is so obvious when you see it.
	I mean, just look at the Old Testament for God's sakes.
	Literally, for God's sakes, right?
	God says, thou shalt not kill.
	And God kills millions of people.
	God kills the entire planet.
	Except for Noah, his family, and the ark.
	God kills the entire planet.
	While openly stating, thou shalt not kill.
	To refrain from killing is essential.
	Christians and other religious folk say that abortion or the killing of the unborn is a sin, is a crime, and they worship a being who drowned tens of millions of babies in their mother's womb during the flood.
	And this is something which people, they don't even notice.
	We've been so well trained to accept universals and to exempt from those universals those in power and not be conscious of that exemption, that when you point this out to people, they are genuinely confused and genuinely believe that you're just speaking things that are irrelevant or unimportant.
	Thou shalt not kill, saith the Lord, who then commands...
	His followers to put to death all of the inhabitants of a town, including babes, including pregnant women, when they conquer that town.
	And then people have the nerve to say abortion is immoral and murder is evil.
	But this is the deity you're worshipping.
	It does these things all the time.
	And so I just want to point out, so when you talk about Language and action, there is an emotional impulse, there is an action, and you only have about a quarter of a second to intercept.
	It's like hitting a bullet with a bullet sometimes.
	You only have about a quarter of a second in your brain to interrupt the connection between impulse and action.
	You know, there's something in your spine, it's a great set of nerves in your spine.
	If you touch something hot...
	I'm sure you've done this.
	Touch something hot on the stove or whatever.
	Like I'm always an idiot when it comes to getting pizza out of the oven.
	I can do this with my hands.
	Why?
	Because I love stumps with no fingerprints, right?
	Very important for the lockpicking, right?
	You can touch something hot.
	The nerve impulses go to your spine and your spine says, jerk that shit back, idiot, right?
	And you jerk your hand back and then you feel that it's hot.
	That's what it is for most people with their actions.
	They have an impulse based on trauma.
	They act out that impulse, often abusive, and then they create very florid justifications for their abusive action that reframe it as moral.
	And the vast majority of all literature, particularly instructional literature, particularly in parenting, is a way Of allowing people to justify their evil impulses by denying universality.
	And of course, I'm constantly chipping away at this.
	If it is moral to teach children about hell, then it must be moral to teach mentally handicapped adults that invisible demons will suck out their eyeballs if they don't obey their porters.
	If it is moral to threaten anyone with hell...
	For a refusal to give money or a refusal to obey, then there cannot be any such thing as a verbal threat that is legally actionable.
	In fact, it must be moral to threaten.
	Like if I threaten to kill someone for not listening to my show, that's illegal and rightly so.
	But if I threaten someone with eternal hell for not donating to me, that is somehow considered moral and necessary.
	So, I mean, this is what I'm constantly chipping at.
	When people say, well, you can hit children because they're mentally deficient, say, okay, well, then your children can hit you when you become old for forgetting where your keys are because you're mentally deficient.
	So if they hit grandma, pull down her granny panties and smack her liver-spotted ass hard to make sure she remembers where her goddamn keys are, this must be moral.
	And people say, well, no, this is terrible!
	Wildly immoral!
	Then the argument fucking fails, right?
	And then people have to change.
	And this is why this is constantly provoking anxiety, this show, among people.
	I get that.
	I understand that.
	I really do.
	My whole life I was raised to believe that you should get the hell out of abusive relationships.
	In the matriarchal manners with all the single moms where I grew up, all those single moms said, well, my husband was – he yelled at me.
	My husband was lazy.
	My husband slept around.
	My husband hit me.
	My husband was, you know, bad.
	And so I left him and everyone was like, good for you, girl.
	You go, sister.
	And then I say, you know, if you're an adult and your parents are abusive, you don't actually have to spend any time with them.
	People are like, oh my god, what is he saying?
	It's crazy!
	It's like, okay, well, then if it is bad to leave abusive relationships, then all women owe an apology to my poor dad.
	Because everyone praised my mom for leaving him for not being a good husband.
	And so if now we're changing our tune and it's bad to leave abusive relationships, then let's go back and apologize to all the men that women dumped in the 60s and 70s and 80s and 90s and noughties or whatever the hell we're in now and the teens of the 21st century.
	Let's go and apologize to all those men and say, gosh, you know, we told all these women to leave these abusive relationships with their husbands who they chose.
	But now that it seems that adult kids are being encouraged to have a choice when it comes to who they associate with, we realize that's a really bad principle.
	So I'm very, very sorry for the hundreds of millions of divorces that we encouraged across the world to the harm of children because we now want to have a new standard called you have to stay in abusive relationships.
	Well, I mean, who's going to do that?
	Nobody.
	How many people have the integrity for that?
	No, they just switch the rules and hope that you don't notice, right?
	Well, yes, women should leave abusive husbands that they chose, that they got to date, that they test drove, that they're economically independent from.
	But boy, if your parents beat you or hit you with belts or tortured you or terrified you or indoctrinated you or verbally abused you or called you names or anything like that, well, you have to stick with them forever.
	Well, why do women – why should women leave abusive husbands but – Like adult children of parents who didn't even choose these relationships and had no chance to leave at all have to stay forever.
	I'm always open to the argument.
	Help me understand what seems to me completely obvious that we should have the highest standards for the parent-child relationship and not the husband-wife relationship because that's voluntary.
	You get to test drive that.
	You can leave at any time.
	You have economic independence.
	Nobody forced you to marry.
	I'm always open to the argument if there's something due to some emotional prejudice that I'm missing, I'm always open to the argument.
	Now help me understand.
	But suddenly when choice is given to adult children of abusive parents, well, somehow this is somehow terrible.
	Well, of course it's silly, but this is the degree to which people have an emotional reaction, usually to something which threatens their interests, right?
	To something which threatens their interests.
	They lash out, and then they erect all of this tortuous nonsense to justify and make moral their lashing out.
	So reason, or I should say rationality, rationalizations, justifications follow irrational impulse.
	I don't believe that the thought comes first.
	The impulse comes first, the action follows the impulse, usually a quarter second afterwards, and then people can literally spend lifetimes Creating elaborate justifications for what they did.
	Sadly, philosophy remains the wake behind the wildly swerving boat of human impulse.
	Philosophy remains the opiate that people apply to their guilty consciences to pretend that what they did was moral and rational.
	Philosophy is not yet steering, but rather trailing behind The speedboat of humanity like a dead water skier bouncing in the waves.
	I'm saying let's resurrect this fucker and put it behind the wheel because we are steering ourselves straight into a cliff.
	Does that help?
	Well, I mean, I definitely agree with you about pretty much everything you said.
	Yeah, I mean, I guess what I was trying to talk about was a little bit more, like you said, ineffable consciousness and...
	You know, when I said thought, word, action, that for me came from when I was taking martial arts and on the wall there was like the creed and there were the eight right things and it started with thought and then something between thought and word and I can't remember all of them right now but it boiled down to the right way to Lead your life is to go thought, word, action.
	And of course, you and I both know that the vast majority of people do not align those things at all.
	Sorry, did you want to respond to that?
	No.
	So you're saying that it's an ideal to have thought, word, action.
	I mean, I don't know about the word thing.
	I mean, why?
	I mean, I don't know.
	You don't need to say, I'm about to do good when you're about to do good.
	I don't need the words, but...
	Well, I mean, you think about doing good, you talk about doing good, and you do good.
	Talking about it is advantageous as well.
	But I think that's a little beside the point.
	I guess what I was talking about is the idea that thought, or you put it as impulse, comes before Physical, whatever.
	You can say that it's like a lower thought, you know, it's not like our cerebral cortex, but our reptilian brain that smacks the child.
	And, you know, not that that's good, but that that's how reality works, at least as far as being a human.
	Yes, and we still are pretty primitive as a species, right?
	Every advantage is a vulnerability, right?
	I mean this is – everything which propels us forward is a vulnerability, at least while we – certainly while we remain in a status paradigm, right?
	So the advancement of the free market produces wealth, knowledge and methodology and education to produce staggering – Weapons of mass destruction, right?
	The advances in wealth produce the capacity to sell off vastly valuable future labor of unborn voters in the form of national debts and to create the backing for fiat currency.
	While we are in a situation of hierarchy, every advancement is a vulnerability.
	It's sort of a yin and a yang, right?
	Literally humanity is one step forward, one step back.
	And it's the same thing is true.
	Our capacity to conceptualize, to universalize, is the greatest wealth of our brains and it differentiates us from all other animals that we know of.
	Our capacity to universalize.
	And our capacity to universalize was a great, rich, deep vein of gold for evil people to mine.
	Because our capacity to universalize gives us Capacity for abstract thought, capacity for long-term planning, capacity for the deferral of gratification, you know, to plant and not eat or seed crop but save stuff for next year and to plan and to refine and to breed animals and to crossbreed crops and to grow all of this great stuff that keeps us alive.
	That all comes out of our capacity for universalization.
	But out of our capacity for universalization comes Our capacity to be exploited by moral theories that claim universalization while promoting exemptions.
	So our capacity for universalization creates our susceptibility to religion and nationalism, which are seeming universalizations which contain within them exploitive contradictions which we can never acknowledge.
	And these are often acknowledged in terms of, you know, it's a mystery.
	You need faith, right?
	And therefore, we need universalization in order for morals to have power over us.
	We need to accept the universal.
	And then something called faith, which is also a virtue, is invented, which allows us to ignore rank contradictions in that which is claimed to be universal.
	You understand?
	So our capacity for universalization is the only reason moral theories work on us.
	But moral theories which contain within them obvious exemptions like priests and kings screw up with the universalization that is the only source of their power.
	So then what happens is people have to make a virtue out of inconsistency.
	Virtue is only and forever powerful to us because it is consistent.
	If I said you should be good for the same reason that I think you should like pistachio ice cream and Chinese opera...
	You'd say, well, you know, I'll listen to them, I'll see if I like them, but I don't consider it a moral imperative.
	You should like pistachio ice cream and Chinese opera.
	Right?
	So, virtue only has power over us because we believe that it is universal, which hooks into the hyperdrive of our brain's basic engine of conceptualization and universalization.
	But because we are infected with the virus of virtue only to be exploited, in other words, We are told that virtue is universal, but then it must be non-universal for those in power, non-applicable to those in power.
	In fact, the opposite actions are allowed for those in power.
	Respect for property is only invented for the purposes of taxation.
	So there's fewer other people who want to steal and more productivity that comes out of the livestock.
	And then after we're told that these virtues are universal, we can't help but notice that the opposite principles apply to those in power.
	So then we are given another virtue called faith or nationalism or patriotism.
	My country, right or wrong?
	God is good no matter what he does.
	So then, the only power that virtue has over us is its universality and consistency.
	But then we are given another virtue called faith or patriotism.
	Which is the express idea that inconsistencies and opposites are also virtue.
	So virtue only has power because it's consistent, and then we're told that inconsistencies and opposites are also a virtue.
	Then the fate of our brain or soul or species is surely doomed until we recover from that fundamental error.
	Well, yeah, I mean, I'm 100% with you on all the criticisms of state and religion.
	I don't subscribe to either one of those or any of their very many convoluted arguments.
	Yeah, I mean, you spoke of morality, and you mentioned that Morality was created so that these people could exempt themselves, and I don't want to believe that because then it doesn't make sense to be moral, right?
	Because why would I try to use something that was used to manipulate me?
	I do believe that morals, and I know you've spoken on this before, like a gut feeling that you have, and that's really where moralities have come from.
	State and religion seem to have co-opted those, the morals.
	Yeah, I mean, the universality is how we're able to have predictive behavior and consistently control matter, which is really the glory of our species.
	But look, just because the only thing that you've ever seen water used for is water watering doesn't mean you can't drink it when you're thirsty, right?
	If the only time you've ever seen fire used is to heat up pokers to put out people's eyeballs, it doesn't mean that you can't warm your hands when you're cold on it, right?
	I mean, the fact that something has been invented for evil doesn't mean that it can't be used for good.
	In fact, it's entirely encouraging that the greatest power that evil has is based upon our desire to be good.
	And so that to me is enormously encouraging.
	And so I think it's wonderful.
	It means that you can't be good as evil people define it, right?
	Of course not, right?
	Of course not.
	But that doesn't mean you can't be good.
	It just means that you have to accept the universality that is the only source of morality's power and then say, okay, so universal must be universal.
	You claim that this is a universal good, therefore it must be universal.
	Or, as I say in the documentary, in other words, universal equals universal.
	I mean, it's really that simple.
	You claim that it's universal, so let's make it universal.
	That's all.
	That's all it is.
	It's simply accepting.
	You know, you talk about martial arts.
	What does martial arts use?
	You use the momentum of your opponent to ensure his downfall, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, someone comes rushing at you.
	You don't push back at them.
	You trip them.
	You use the momentum of their attack to put them on the ground, right?
	And this is why everybody's dancing, right?
	They're not rushing at each other, right?
	In martial arts tournaments.
	And so, it's the same principle.
	We use the momentum of universals to overturn false morality, which only has power because of universals.
	And this is the only way to fight evil in any fundamental way.
	It's to say, okay, I accept.
	I accept that theft is wrong.
	That is a universal.
	Okay?
	Then magical exceptions...
	Don't work.
	You know, when I was a kid, that's what I was told.
	I mean, this is the strange stuff that I have to keep returning to.
	Not because of you, but because I met a...
	When I was at the Butterfly Conservatory today, I met a listener.
	He's a teacher at the University of Waterloo.
	And we chatted for a bit.
	And he's like, yeah, philosophy is hard.
	And I'm like, it kind of is, but it's kind of not.
	You know, this is an annoyingly ambivalent response or ambiguous response.
	But you know, when I was a kid, I didn't get to create magical exemptions.
	Like, I just didn't.
	You know, if I spelled the word ambiguous wrong, I didn't get to say, well, just at this moment, that's how it's spelled.
	Tomorrow, it'll be spelled back the way you say it.
	But for me, at this moment, that's the way it's spelled.
	Or I get to spell the word differently.
	What would my teacher say?
	No, you don't.
	Right?
	No, you don't.
	Two plus two does not equal the unicorn just for you today.
	When I said, don't hit the other children, I didn't mean that when it's cloudy, even though it was cloudy when I said it.
	I didn't mean it on a Tuesday, even though it was Tuesday when I said it.
	I didn't mean it in the morning, even though it was the morning when I said it.
	I meant forever, forever.
	I didn't get to say, well, I thought you meant don't hit children when you, that specific teacher, is telling me.
	Because there was another teacher in the room when I hit Bobby.
	I say, no!
	You don't get to create your little magical exemptions to the rules.
	Sorry!
	Two and two make four.
	Don't hit other children.
	This is how you spell ambiguous.
	A-M-B-I-G-O-O-U-S or whatever the hell it is, right?
	There's no magical exceptions as a kid.
	You don't get that shit.
	And if you want to know what morality looks like, all you have to do is remember how it was told to you as a kid.
	That's all you have to do, is remember how it was told to you as a kid.
	The moral rules that apply to children must apply a thousand times more to adults.
	If children are not allowed to make magical exemptions to the moral rules they're subjected to, Then by God, adults can't either, right?
	I cannot go to a store and buy 10 candy bars and say that some other kid is going to come and pay 20 candy bars worth of money tomorrow.
	What would that be called?
	Theft!
	Right?
	I can't, and yet this is the national debt, right?
	I can't, as a kid, look at someone else's test, right?
	I can't look at someone else's test.
	That's cheating, man.
	And yet, what is welfare but looking at someone else's test, whether it's corporate or personal?
	Somebody else studied and I didn't.
	So if I didn't study, I have to suffer the negative consequences of not studying, which might be losing a year of my life in this fucking hellhole of a school.
	It's going to be graduating, making a million dollars less.
	Over the course of my life, if I don't graduate from high school or whatever, massive, huge negative consequences.
	If I didn't study, I don't get to cheat from someone else who did.
	I don't get to take their knowledge without their permission.
	Even with their permission, I don't get to take their knowledge.
	If I didn't study, I must suck it up and accept the consequences because I'm six, for God's sakes.
	And it's really important that six-year-olds have to accept the consequences of their decisions.
	You chose to play Nintendo and not study, young man.
	You get the F. Well...
	At least in America, the average two-person household below the poverty line, two adults in the household, combined works 16 hours a week.
	16 hours a week!
	Should be at least 80 if you want to get out of poverty.
	They work 16 hours a week.
	I think that's fine.
	I don't have a problem with that.
	Want to work 16 hours a week?
	Work 16 hours a week.
	It means you're going to be kind of broke.
	But that's just like not studying for a test.
	I wasn't allowed to take anybody else's knowledge if they studied and I didn't.
	So, if we are consistent about that, then poor people should not be allowed to take other people's money because other people worked and they didn't.
	Ah, you see?
	It's so easy.
	It's so simple.
	But of course, the only reason that we inflict universal morality on kids Well, it's two faults.
	Kids have no independence and kids don't vote.
	Right?
	Adults vote and therefore they can vote to steal.
	Right?
	Kids don't get to vote and therefore kids can't vote to steal, which is why kids live in a state of tyranny.
	I mean, if adults were being hit, 90% of adults were being hit and a significant majority of those were being hit several times a week and were being forced against their will Into brain deadening occupations where they had to stay for six, seven hours a day.
	This would be a state – and by the way, their labor was being sold off to others and they were being indebted.
	This would be a form of chattel slavery.
	This would be a form of serfdom.
	And children don't vote and therefore children are subjected to generally fascistic environments.
	I mean if we – I read a story when I was a kid.
	Really stuck with me.
	About a guy who got a wish.
	And he wished because his son was being teased and tortured and bullied and had to go to government schools and all that.
	And he chose to take over his son's brain and let his son become an adult immediately so his son would not have to go through the torture of being in government schools with bullies around other kids and all that kind of stuff.
	And they are.
	I mean they're homicidal shit heaps of base reptilian pecking orders.
	Yeah, I went to one myself.
	Yeah, I mean they're all shit.
	And it took me some time to process just how unbelievably awful they were.
	But of course, society can't work if children are treated with respect, not in its current form, which is why all those in charge of society have massive investments on how poorly children are treated.
	I was talking to a woman the other day.
	She's an older woman and she comes from Tennessee and she said, oh yeah, my daughter has had to put her kids in private schools because you cannot with any good conscience.
	This wasn't a libertarian or it's just some average muggle.
	She said you cannot in any good conscience send your kids to public schools in Tennessee.
	I mean they're zoos.
	They're cages.
	They're just terrible.
	Educational standards are terrible.
	Danger to students is terrible and so on, right?
	You know, what's funny is that when Chinese factory workers try and jump off bridges and they try and jump off the roofs of their factories because they're being driven so fucking insane from the work environments in these factories, everybody goes completely mental.
	And then we don't lecture all of the other factory workers.
	We say, well, there's something really wrong with that system.
	It's the people in charge of those factories and the consumers who are to blame.
	We don't blame the factory workers, right?
	What happens when kids in government schools hang themselves in their closets, jump off bridges, OD, shoot themselves, throw themselves in front of trains, Because they cannot stand the government environment that they're forced to be in.
	Well, what do we do?
	We lecture other children not to bully them, you see.
	We have anti-bullying campaigns, which is exactly the same as saying to the factory workers in the overseas factories, you know, you all just should be nicer to each other.
	That's the only problem.
	Just be nicer to each other.
	In other words, we're blaming the other inhabitants, the other slaves in the factory system for the fact that some people are jumping off bridges rather than go back to work.
	And do you understand why these kids are killing themselves?
	They're killing themselves so they don't have to go back to government schools.
	It is a fundamental protest.
	Do you remember this Tibetan monk protesting the war?
	Set himself on fire's famous picture.
	These kids are killing themselves So that they do not have to go back to government schools.
	And what do we say?
	Well, the problem you see is that other children aren't nice enough to them.
	It's like blaming the suicides of the factory workers on the other factory workers.
	We would never imagine doing that.
	Imagine writing that article.
	Suicides in Chinese factories.
	Well, the problem is that the other factory workers are mean to these people and don't support them enough.
	I mean, you would be viewed as just horrendous.
	But we trap children in these government fucking hellholes.
	And then when they kill themselves out of protest for having to go back...
	And it's always school, isn't it?
	It's always school.
	They don't kill themselves because they have to go back to Boy Scouts.
	They don't kill themselves because their Xbox crashed.
	They don't kill themselves...
	Because the Krispy Kremes are out of donuts, they kill themselves because they don't want to go back to government schools.
	And if factory workers came to work armed with guns and started shooting other factory workers, we would understand that there was something seriously wrong with the factory system, right?
	And we wouldn't say, well, you see, the problem is that there are guns.
	Right?
	Of course we wouldn't.
	And we'd say, well, we need to disarm the factory workers, you see, because we'd understand that these are human beings trapped in a state of unbearable tension and pressure and in an entirely anti-human environment.
	But when kids kill and die...
	Trapped in government schools, we kind of blame the other kids, right?
	Well, you see, it's the bullying that's the problem.
	The other kids weren't nice enough.
	You try writing that about Chinese factory workers, and you would be honestly exposed as the inhuman, anti-empathetic monster that you would be for making that argument.
	What was I always told as a kid?
	Again, it's all what you were told.
	Don't blame the victim.
	Don't blame the other kids in school for the fact that government schools are driving kids to murder and suicide.
	It's the system.
	Sorry, long speech.
	Yeah, well, I mean, again, it's state and religion.
	I mean, the second question I have written down here is, how do you keep your head up when the odds are so long against you?
	I mean, I've been listening to you.
	I've taken the proverbial red pill.
	I mean, I've realized a lot of things.
	I wasn't popular in school, and I think I'm still paying the psychological price.
	You think you pay a psychological price for not being popular in school?
	Do you ever imagine the psychological price you'd be paying if you were popular in school?
	I mean, I can only imagine.
	It's because of the state-backed nature of it that no matter what you do, you're pretty much screwed.
	You know, I was the least popular kid in the Nazi-Hitler youth.
	I mean, those other Nazis, they really didn't like me at all.
	I bear the scars of not being liked by Nazis to this very day.
	It's a lack of pride, for God's sakes.
	I mean, you know, I could go on there.
	You want to be good or you want to be liked?
	Right.
	So, like, you know, I started the discussion with spirituality because, I mean, to me, that's one of the few things that I draw strength from.
	When I look back, you know, I've opened a restaurant here in Chicago, localrootchicago.com for your listeners who want some excellently locally sourced food.
	But tomorrow, I'm going to go pay the city $540 because I had a sign, a chalkboard sign that was a foot too far into the sidewalk.
	And, you know...
	I've done calculations.
	I've shown my partners and everybody I work with, especially after listening to you.
	I've done calculations that I would say about 52% of every dollar that comes into Local Root goes to the government because I'm paying them directly 37% and then all my vendors and my landlord and everybody I work with, I'm sure, is paying that same percentage.
	So at the end of the day, more than half of every dollar which is being inflated At the same time, it's going to the government.
	Sorry, it's much worse than that, as you know, right?
	This is for the other listeners, right?
	I always try to be aware that I don't know.
	This might be the first show that somebody shares of this show.
	So I know you know this.
	But it's worse than that, of course, because the money is not going to the government.
	The money is going to lenders that the government is using to borrow more money.
	Right?
	So it's basically been used as collateral for borrowing, which is even worse than someone taking your money, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, somebody takes your money, that's it, that's done, right?
	But if somebody takes your credit card, you can't cancel it, and they get to keep running it up, then that debt goes on forever.
	And that's, I wanted to point out, it's even worse than them taking just half your money, right?
	Of course.
	Yeah.
	So, how do I, you know, I feel like I'm trying to fight the good fight, and I know you've talked about going galt, and it's kind of what you've done, but I don't want to cede my hometown, Chicago, or my society, you know, or the state of existence to the statists,
	and I feel like I'm completely surrounded by them, and, you know, like, you know, I'll bring up a conversation with most people I know, and it's a, here we go again, oh yeah, here we go again, with I mean, I went through the whole education system.
	I was taught 99% bullshit.
	I mean, my parents circumcised me.
	I watched your video on that, and I'm just like, yeah.
	I mean, there's no sugar-coating it.
	I mean, it's, you know, and I'm sure most people in Chicago share the same experiences, but it seems to me that it's almost a losing battle.
	Why do you do it?
	Why do I do it?
	Well, it beats working for a living.
	Well, why do I do it?
	There's something that Andrew Breitbart said.
	And I didn't really get this consciously.
	I kind of got it unconsciously.
	But he said there's going to be Fire either way.
	So walk towards the fire.
	Right?
	And Ben Shapiro gave a speech recently where he was talking about Piers Morgan.
	Oh, God.
	It just reminds me of why it's so good to not be back in England.
	But Piers Morgan was doing a thing about birth control.
	Sorry, about gun control after Sandy Hook.
	And...
	There's a reason why I'm thinking of Piers Morgan and birth control because – anyway.
	And he was talking about – he was using the Sandy Hook shootings to promote gun control.
	And so Ben Shapiro went on his show and said – he said, you walk towards the fire.
	You don't wait for the fight to be brought to you.
	You walk towards the fire.
	And he said, Piers Morgan, you are standing on the bodies of children to push a political agenda and that's vile.
	That's reprehensible.
	This is the broken record, right?
	So you walk towards a fire and it's been a sort of slow and painful process of me learning all of this.
	Like, you get comfort and peace when you realize how evil the world really is.
	You get comfort and peace when you realize how evil the world really is.
	Didn't Barack Obama just give the Presidential Medal of Freedom to Bill Clinton?
	You know, there's this meme floating around Facebook which says, I don't always order drone strikes against innocent children, but when I do, I make sure I'm wearing my Nobel Peace Prize.
	It's a picture of Barack Obama, right?
	Yeah, it's a joke.
	It's a joke.
	Yeah.
	And, you know, when I say violence achieves the opposite of what your stated goals are, what was the stated goals of Obamacare?
	To get more people on insurance.
	Right.
	Affordable care.
	What has happened as a result of Obamacare, which is violence?
	Well, 100,000 people, they claim, which is not even true, let's just say that their claim is true, 100,000 people have gained insurance and 5 million people have lost insurance.
	I got a letter that said my insurance is over in December and I've got to pay more.
	Well, but what you don't realize, of course, is that your old insurance was what the bureaucrats call substandard.
	Substandard.
	You see, they weren't offering you coverage for things that you don't need, right?
	They weren't offering you pediatric dental coverage and coverage for SSRIs and psychotropic drugs and so on, right?
	Arthritic hip replacements and all the stuff that sounds really important to a young man like yourself, right?
	So, you see, because the government is so interested in substandard things and making sure that you get quality service.
	Because they're concerned that you might be making your own choice, which is substandard.
	Now, the fact that they openly lie to you in order to get laws passed is not substandard in their eyes.
	They're concerned about you being exploited in what's left of the free market, not getting exploited by politicians who lie to you about the consequences of their laws and then pass more laws to try and cover things up.
	I mean, they're trying to pass more laws now to allow people to keep their I mean, this is literally going to drive some insurance companies into bankruptcy.
	They have made their plans and prices based upon the government laws.
	And if the government has now changed the laws, then what's going to happen is people are going to not want to enroll.
	They're going to keep their old healthcare plans, which means that only the sickest people are going to enroll in new healthcare plans, which is going to drive the costs up.
	You absolutely need people who are healthy for healthcare insurance to work.
	Otherwise, it's just overhead in top of hospital bills for insurance companies.
	If only people who have cancer buy cancer treatment insurance, then there's no point.
	It's actually more expensive than not having it at all.
	You need the healthy people.
	Of course, the healthcare prices have been rising so much based upon prior government legislation that healthy people are staying out of the market.
	Just roll the dice, right?
	And this is going to be a death spiral and it's going to result in socialized medicine, of course.
	I mean, this is just the natural.
	You keep fucking up the free market until it completely ceases to function.
	Then you say, we have to save you from the free market and therefore we're going to take things over.
	I mean, it's the same old stuff all the time, right?
	I mean, it's exactly what...
	What the mafia do, right?
	They're the ones who are going to burn down your store if you don't pay them protection money, but you still feel safer if you pay the bastards off, right?
	So they say that they're protecting you from criminals, but they are the criminals, right?
	And that's exactly what governments are, right?
	As Harry Brown used to say, the government's good at only one thing, breaking your leg, stealing from you to give you a crutch, and then saying, see, without the government, you couldn't even walk.
	And...
	So yeah, it is – I'm very sorry about that.
	It is completely wretched and you and I and most people else who listen to this knew that this was going to be the exact outcome.
	The shocker is that the Democrats may survive as a party.
	But of course the only reason the Democrats have any constituency at all is single moms, immigrants and public sector unions.
	I mean they are completely an article – A party of dependents, and this is why they seek to break up all organic structures within society because the more people they smash up and make dependent on the state, the more power they have.
	And if the Republicans would walk towards the fire and actually fight the fight, I mean, this is how pitiful Republicans are, that now they're saying, well, let's pass a law that lets you keep some of your health care.
	It's like, really?
	This is what you're fucking doing now?
	This is what you call defending freedom?
	Are you kidding me?
	But, of course, the Republicans don't have the media on their side with the exception of talk radio, and so it is tough for them.
	But a slow death is still a death, and all the Republicans really can do is slow it down a little bit based on where they are right now.
	But anyway, sorry, a bit of a tangent.
	Go ahead.
	Did you have any other questions?
	Well, I mean, I don't know that we answered that.
	I mean, how do we keep our heads up?
	That's why I talked about thought and action.
	It's fun!
	Yeah.
	It's fun.
	Well, yeah.
	Don't you think?
	Well, I mean...
	It's probably more fun for you when you're not dealing with one of the most fascistic cities.
	Well, yeah.
	I mean Chicago is the hellhole that produced the jug-eared sociopath currently in the White House, right?
	So, yeah, I get it.
	The beanpole javelin straight through the heart of American freedom.
	So, sure, look, I get it.
	But trust me, I live in Canada and – We already have socialized medicine.
	So it's not – grass is greener, right?
	We don't have deductions for mortgages from our taxes, right?
	Well, that's just my point though.
	I mean like in Canada, even where you are, it's still bad.
	I mean they're inflating your currency as well and – It seems to me this fight for morality and positive energy, if it weren't for my spiritual practice and my belief that the universe conspires in our favor while all our rulers don't,
	if it weren't for that, which I admit might be irrational, unless you do a bowed face on how you look at the universe, but I mean...
	It just seems like the odds are so far against us, you know, and it's very discouraging in my daily life, except for, you know, the people who I'm partners with in business.
	Most of the people that I've known in my life and that I meet, they're part of the statist paradigm.
	And it's, yeah, I mean, I guess I'm just...
	But look, I mean, look, we are...
	Look, I will tell you this.
	I believe that FDR is like the first underground railway from statism that there is.
	The underground railway was in the South and throughout the – all throughout America.
	It was a way of getting slaves to Canada, right?
	Yeah.
	And it was a way of getting them away from slavery.
	And of course, for every slave who got to Canada, there were like 10,000 who didn't, right?
	Yeah.
	And you can either stare at the 10,000 who don't, or you can stare at the one who did.
	Now, if you stare at the 10,000 who didn't and you don't get out of bed anymore, then the one doesn't get free, right?
	Have you ever seen the movie Schindler's List?
	Yeah.
	Who is the only man who cries about the evil of the Nazis and the evil of the concentration camps?
	Who is the only person in the movie who cries about that?
	I don't remember.
	I'd imagine Schindler.
	Yeah, Oscar Schindler is the only man who cries about the evils that he has seen.
	I mean...
	The commandant doesn't cry.
	His wives don't cry.
	There's one guy who screams while shooting into a big pile of bodies.
	But the only guy who cries – sorry for the spoilers.
	It's an old movie.
	I don't care.
	The only guy who cries is Oskar Schindler, right?
	He's the only guy who was really working to save people and he did save a lot of people from the concentration camps.
	And he's the only guy who cries because he feels like a bad guy.
	At the end, right?
	Because this watch could have saved another 10 people and so on.
	Of course, if he had sold everything he had, then they would have been on to him, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, if he showed up to the concentration camp wearing a barrel because he sold all his clothes and everything, he needed to have certain trappings of wealth in order to do what he did.
	But he saved thousands of people from concentration camps, and he's the only one who feels guilty.
	It's a peculiarly Jewish argument, but that's right.
	Oh, it's guilt!
	Okay, well, all right.
	But he is the only man who can feel noble in this situation.
	He saved thousands of people.
	And the six million who died is on the Nazis, right?
	And on those who voted for them and on the intellectuals who supported and prepared, as Picoff writes about in Ominous Parallels, who supported and prepared the way of Nazism.
	So, you cannot save people from statism, but you can save people from statists.
	Do you understand?
	I cannot save people from the Fed.
	I cannot save people from the IRS. But I can save people from violence, abuse, and aggression in their own lives if they will listen and act with courage.
	And then it's me not doing a damn thing.
	They have to save themselves, right?
	We can not save ourselves from the immoral people who run the world, but we can save ourselves from the immoral people who support the immoral people who run the world, right?
	I cannot end the KKK, but I sure as hell don't have to go to one of their fucking barbecues.
	And when you have practical action that you can take to live with integrity, well, then philosophy can vastly improve the quality of your life.
	I mean, I bet you wish you'd spit out that red pill sometimes, right?
	Because if all it does is cause you problems, then who the hell wants it, right?
	If all it does is cause you problems, who the hell wants it?
	I mean, why do you want to wake to the evils of racism if you still go to the KKK barbecues?
	What's the point?
	Then you know something's evil and you keep rubbing your face in it.
	Then why bother finding out that it's evil?
	I'm sorry?
	People do that.
	I know.
	I know.
	Most listeners to this show still do that.
	I get it.
	It takes time.
	It takes time for them to understand how serious all this stuff is, how much it matters.
	They're still looking for personal tribal comfort.
	I get it.
	I understand that.
	I really do.
	I did it for a long time, too.
	I have great sympathy with it.
	But one day, people wake up and they say...
	Sorry?
	Don't you think we're running out of time?
	For people to, you know, realize that?
	Do you think I should be doing more?
	No, I guess I'm just pontificating with you.
	No, no, seriously.
	Look, I mean, I don't think I can be doing more.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I pay my own way to go to speaking engagements sometimes.
	I don't get paid for speaking.
	I don't charge for my shows.
	I will accept almost every request to talk to anyone.
	I do six hours of call-in shows or more a week.
	I produce shows.
	I don't really think that I can do more.
	I try to be as entertaining, as engaging, as passionate, as instructive, as enlightening as possible.
	That's the most I can do.
	I don't have all these great ideas that I'm saying, well, I'll hold off on until X, right?
	I mean, if I have a good idea, I have a good way of explaining something, I'm on the mic.
	I do it.
	We still have, like I recorded a whole bunch of shows before I went into chemo in case I was too weak to do any shows over the summer.
	And we've still got like 30 shows to release, interviews and some really great stuff.
	And we'll do that.
	Bye!
	I have so many shows, I can't even release them all.
	I'm still getting complaints about putting out too much material, man.
	Can't keep up.
	You know?
	Still working on the documentary.
	Still working on the Peaceful Parenting book.
	I mean, I can't do more.
	So if I can't do more, and the show is doing like 2 million views a month, podcasts and videos, That's just on my channel, all the other republished stuff and other people's channels and all that sort of shit.
	I don't know what that is.
	Maybe another half million.
	Two and a half million philosophy impressions a month.
	That's pretty great.
	And now that everyone donates 50 cents a podcast, okay, I wish they would.
	I would imagine what I could do with that, right?
	But nonetheless.
	So I'm doing – look, you do what you can.
	I'm doing as much as I can.
	I'm living with as much integrity as I can.
	I'm encouraging other people to live with as much integrity as they can.
	More than that, no man can do.
	And so what happens in the world is completely outside of my control.
	What happens with my day, I have some say over it.
	Not all the say in the world, but I have some say over it.
	And I am satisfied with how I have acquitted myself in the battle of virtue to date.
	I certainly have made some mistakes.
	I certainly have things still to improve, but I believe that I have continually acted with A responsible amount of knowledge and with as much integrity as I was aware of at the time.
	And I've certainly learned more about the world in doing this show than perhaps I ever wanted to know.
	But if I satisfy – and I have a pretty strict conscience about this stuff.
	And if I satisfied myself, I can't do more than that.
	Now, if there's more you can do, then do it.
	If there's not more than you can do, then be content with what you're doing.
	But if there is despair, the despair can only be that you could do more.
	Because when you're doing as much as you can do, you will not feel despair.
	Because despair is the gap between what you could be doing and what you are doing.
	And I'm not saying yell FTR slogans at your customers or have it continually playing in the background on Valentine's Day.
	Wait, no, I am saying that.
	No, I'm not saying any of that.
	You know, whatever it is.
	You know, whatever it is.
	Like I was talking to the listener today and he's saying, oh, here's my wife.
	And she's like, oh, I know your voice.
	My husband plays it when we're getting ready for bed.
	And I say, oh, how romantic.
	At least romantic show that there is, right?
	Are you on the call?
	Yeah?
	Yeah, we're almost done.
	I'll let him go in a second.
	Almost done, honey.
	I'm the other man.
	But no, if you feel despair, it's because you could do more.
	If you're doing as much as you can while still able to live your life with a reasonable degree of happiness, then you will not feel despair because that's as much as you can do and we have the power of the internet.
	You and I having this conversation is why there is reason for hope.
	If you're doing as much as you can, if you're living with as much integrity as you can, if you're confronting people with the evils they support and no longer supporting them with the evils they continue to support, then that's as much as anyone can do.
	Because there's no point setting fire to yourself in the steps of Congress because anything that goes through the lens of the media will be automatically turned to evil.
	And so, do what you can.
	And despair will diminish.
	The despair is your body's way of saying, you can do more.
	I hope that helps.
	I've got to get to the next caller.
	We've got a full deck today.
	Thanks so much, Steph.
	You're welcome, man.
	Great question.
	The best thing that you do, at least for me, is the catharsis.
	You're able to put the blame where it really belongs.
	Do you feel better?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, well, the last thing you said about despair, I actually had the word written on my notes, and I didn't mention it, and you mentioned it, and that really hit home for me, the way that you explained that.
	I mean, I think I despair because I see so much evil, but if you're doing what you can, then there's no reason to let your mind sink to that level, I guess.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	You have to accept that you are mortal and that evil is strong and you cannot self-attack.
	Despair is a form of self-attack and either up your game or accept that you're doing what you can to the max.
	And I hope that helps.
	So, Mike, who do we have next?
	Thanks, Steph.
	Alright, Tiger Lily.
	You're up next.
	Go ahead, Tiger Lily.
	Yay!
	That was very helpful stuff to me because I have been feeling a lot of despair myself and I think that it really nails it because I know every day that I am depressed and I stay in bed because of having taken the pill of virtue,
	I think to myself, on my deathbed, I am going to regret Having wasted this time, and yet I have such a difficult time sometimes getting out of that.
	By the way, can you hear me?
	I can.
	I can.
	And I was just sort of reminded, you know, that the red pill chokes you if you neither spit it up nor swallow it, right?
	Because it just gets stuck in your windpipe.
	So either spit it up, which is really hard, or swallow it all the way, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, and I also want to say something positive.
	If the previous caller is listening, I was watching, I hardly ever watch TV, but I was waiting for Proof Negative, who he's kind of my boss because I do have a little segment on Freedomizer Radio, and he came over to visit me because I live up in the mountains, and he brought his family.
	So I was just kind of channel surfing, and I watched CNN has Anthony Bourdain.
	You know who he is, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And Anthony was going through Detroit and you did a really excellent job about how screwed up Detroit is.
	But there was actually a positive message in that show that I saw because since the government is all jacked and there's no money in Detroit, But what people have done is you can see the volunteers coming in because they closed down.
	They didn't close down, but all the parks that are supposed to be for the children, they don't have money to maintain the parks.
	So you got people volunteering their little riding mowers and Anthony Bourdain was in there riding a lawnmower and he showed, you know, now there isn't enough government.
	They got rid of half their cop roaches.
	Yay for that!
	So now people are going to have to take care of their own damn cell to stop calling 911 because nothing good comes of calling 911, right?
	At least not for a cop.
	And so there was a lot of positivity to that message.
	So I wanted to share that with the previous guy because I am also from his neck of the woods.
	That's where I was raised in East Chicago, Indiana and Gary.
	So I feel for him.
	I know what he's talking about.
	But anyway, I wanted to tell you that I'm so glad to hear to know that you're doing well.
	And when I first heard about you getting cancer, I was in a very low place in my life in terms of I was extremely I was depressed and I was in Las Vegas and I literally cried my eyes out for two whole hours at least.
	I mean I felt like you were a member of my family And I felt especially deeply because I was a registered nurse for 10 years and the work just literally burned me out because my husband was kind of like my pimp and he would send me out to the highest bidder and so I went to some really atrocious hospitals to work and that's probably part of my depression that I'm working with.
	So I gave up that whole thing.
	I never thought that I would see or experience a more psychopathic profession in my entire life than the profession of the medical doctors because they show one face to the patient and they show their real reptilian selves to the nurses.
	And the way I got around that is the first year I was a nurse, I had to be like a hospital nurse.
	So I was an employee.
	But then 9-11 took place and then I thought, shoot, my life is going to be over pretty soon.
	I haven't done the traveling I want to do.
	So I became a traveling nurse.
	So I went from hospital to hospital.
	I was licensed in 11 states and yada, yada.
	But I got really burned out after about 10 years.
	But I've got all of this experience of taking care of patients from birth to death.
	So when I heard about your diagnosis, I'm like, oh my God.
	And then I could see your podcasting and it brought, I felt shame.
	I felt ashamed of myself.
	Here you are.
	Yellow-green from your chemo.
	And you're still advocating, you're evangelizing the don't spank your children and the philosophy.
	And I'm like, you know, I really need to be ashamed of myself.
	I have perfect health.
	I just have my head is, you know, it's It's getting better all the time, and you're a big reason why it's getting better.
	Just the other day, my husband and I watched something about forgiveness, the philosophy of forgiveness, and my husband and I talked about that, and that was a real milestone for our marriage.
	We've been married for 31 years, but we together, we've been on this journey of learning about philosophy.
	We've changed all of our The way we used to think and we have cleansed ourselves and rid ourselves of people who support the state despite the evidence that, you know, the way you taught us and stuff.
	And so you are really making a difference in the world.
	And I think in my little radio show, today I aired the Obamacare extension government without painkillers.
	And I'm always telling my listeners to listen to your stuff because I think you're going to go down in history as the grandest, in my opinion, in my humble, the grandest philosopher known to man in this planet.
	And here you are.
	And this is why I waited over two hours to get to talk to you, and I even peed locally here because I'm a nurse and I know how to pee without making a mess.
	I did not want to leave my site.
	That should be on the endorsement page, you know, if we ever do one.
	I peed locally as a woman in order to chat.
	Well, I appreciate your kind words, but I don't even want to think of the physics of it because I, whatever, right?
	But I have been known to avail myself of a coffee cup while trapped in a long conversation, but not trapped, but, you know, stuck in the studio and all.
	But that's great to know.
	It's a very ringing endorsement, you know?
	Well, yeah.
	Do I pee and miss my opportunity to talk to Steph, or do I do something else?
	So I got really creative, so I have this big jar here, so I just peed right here, right in front of my computer.
	So anyways, I feel ever so relieved.
	But the reason I wanted to get your thought on this, I've been studying, besides you, I've been studying other philosophers, and one that caught my eye out of me It was a guy by the name of Etienne de la Boise.
	Does that ring to you, familiar?
	Yeah, yeah.
	You can go a little further.
	The name is definitely familiar.
	Okay.
	He wrote The Politics of Obedience, The Discourse of Voluntary Reservitude.
	And as I progressed, because I'm going to be branching out, because when I started doing my radio show, it was all about exposing cockroaches.
	And that got to be just, as I started doing that, I started getting overwhelmed with people wanting me to cover their stories and the stuff that, the inhumane things that police officers are doing in the name of law with complete immunity.
	It was even, you know, when I said I never thought I'd find a more sociopathic group of individuals than medical doctors, I found them.
	It's the cops, the law enforcers, my God.
	So this philosopher, Etienne de Labasse, in his little essay said, and I'm quoting, and it's a short quote, but if not one thing is yielded to them, and he's speaking about the rulers and how we give the rulers our power, he said, but if not one thing is yielded to them, if without any violence they are simply not obeyed, they become naked and undone and as nothing, just as...
	When the root receives no nourishment, the branch withers and dies.
	And that makes so much sense to me, Steph.
	And that ties in with your stance on voting.
	And I no longer vote because of, you know, I believe that voting is not only just not useful, I believe voting is immoral.
	Because I think you're the one who put it this way.
	Voting is selecting a group of individuals to point a gun at your neighbor.
	And that is an immoral act.
	So my question to you is, as I progress with my radio shows, and I'm kind of building up my own brand, Tiger Lily Gonzalez, you know, and I'm thinking of calling it like Roaring for Anarchy or something like that.
	But as I do this, I wanted to advocate to just, number one, stop voting because it's immoral.
	But how can I justify...
	This idea that I have that the reason Syria, we didn't go to war with Syria, was because of the public outcry and the messages to the legislators and the lawmakers and the people, the public, actually engaging the masters and telling them no.
	It just doesn't seem to fit in.
	How can I say, don't do this, don't contact them, make them invisible, When it clearly, I think, worked that engaging them stopped a war.
	How can I – give me a roadmap, please.
	No, it's a great question.
	I have two minds about the Syrian thing.
	I mean I do think that popular outrage definitely had something to do with it that was helpful.
	So – and I sort of accept and believe that.
	I really do.
	But I think there were also some practical reasons.
	Can they really fund a war when there's government shutdowns?
	And I think that they may have gone to the lenders and said, we need to borrow money for a war, right?
	Because they borrowed all the money for the last war, right?
	Six trillion dollars, the overall long-term cost.
	For the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
	And the true cost of the wars in terms of pensions and healthcare benefits will only show up 40 years from now.
	The peak of spending on World War I vets occurred in the 1960s.
	The peak of spending for World War II vets occurred in the 1980s.
	And the six-week Persian Gulf War, the first one, spending $4 billion a year on benefits.
	So I think that...
	I think that they went for money from the lenders, and basically the lenders said, no, we're not funding this war, and I think that had something to do with it.
	There definitely is war weariness in America, and I think that had something to do with it as well.
	The Democrats facing re-election at the moment are certainly having significant problems with Obamacare and so on.
	So I think that we definitely want to continue to Express our outrage.
	But the reason that I don't engage in the political process, I mean one of many, and the reason I don't vote is I'm not going to pretend there's a contract.
	I mean there's nothing enforceable about voting.
	I mean the smoothest sociopaths are the ones who gain power and they won't honor anything.
	There's no contract between me and a politician.
	He says he's going to do X. You can keep your plan.
	You can keep your doctor.
	And you vote for that.
	Well, you can't enforce that contract.
	I'm not going to pretend that there's anything enforceable in voting.
	And I think definitely speak out loud and hard against the war.
	You know, speak out loud and hard.
	The fact that other people are going to go talk to the politicians about it is a given, right?
	And the media will do their surveys and so on, right?
	So if you are out there blogging and talking and doing your radio show against the war, that message is going to get out no matter what.
	And it's going to do a lot more than somebody who's going to vote about it two years from now.
	Does that make sense?
	It sure does, yeah.
	I appreciate that.
	And I constantly say on my shows that, hey, I didn't sign the Constitution, did you?
	It kind of wakes people up a little bit.
	It's like, hey, where is that contract?
	Now, I had called you on another occasion where I had a moral NAP question about an AP. So-called constitutional attorney who blocked me from Facebook and ostracized me in my motorcycle community for exposing a judge for the punk that he was.
	And there's a video that shows exactly what he did and how illegal it was.
	And he had me, well, he tried to ostracize me.
	I think most of the bikers kind of liked my message, which was really in your face, you know, this is what is going on.
	So it's just coincidental that it just so happened that this weekend, that same constitutional attorney who chastised me and told me I was going all about it the wrong way and that for every step that I take forward, the whole Freedom movement for a motorcyclist takes 10 steps back and I need to shut my big fat mouth and he called me some choice names and all that kind of stuff.
	Well, this exact same person, I guess he was riding with his motorcycle pelts and one of them got pulled over by a cop roach and the guy says, I want to speak to my attorney who happened to have been the bow tie constitutional attorney that was in question.
	And guess what resulted of that?
	Do tell?
	He got put in jail.
	Really?
	Yeah, so there's this little baby, petty, bitchy part in me that just wants to shout out nanny, nanny, boo-boo.
	But they put the lawyer in jail for 12 hours.
	So I'm just wondering what's going to come of that.
	I am going to resist all urges to gloat over this.
	But yeah, hopefully he comes to our side in terms of liberty and recognizing that there is no such thing as rights in America unless you're in with the club.
	The other thing, before I go to the next thing, and it's a quick next thing, did you have anything that you wanted to say about that?
	No, I think you nailed it.
	Go ahead.
	Okay.
	Remember you did this really awesome vid on that judge that was beating the crap out of his daughter and the YouTube went viral?
	I do.
	Do you know what happened to that judge ultimately?
	Oh, no.
	I think I read something about it, but I don't recall it at the moment.
	If you could fill this in, that'd be great.
	Yes.
	It was so juicy, and the media didn't make any big deal about this or anything like that, and I figured you may be too busy to even know about it.
	But what happened is that he got suspended for an entire year with pay, $150,000, and now he is back on the bench doing his thing.
	So I'm going to do a little short podcast about that.
	So basically, if you break the law and you're a judge, you get a paid vacation.
	That's the deal.
	You get paid vacation.
	And I can bet they didn't interfere with his pension either, right?
	I mean, there's people here making the argument that our crack mayor, Rob Ford, should get a decent pension after he leaves office.
	That's astounding.
	Yeah.
	Oh my god.
	Oh, I don't even want to go there.
	It just pisses me off just to think of how stupid people are that they don't even recognize the contradiction.
	And it's because it's not being exposed, because mainstream media is not exposing us.
	It takes us people, us little people, if we can get enough little people like me to spread the gospel, maybe we can create this movement.
	And I'm always thinking about what you say, if you could tap into that morality bug.
	And, you know, there's no way to stop the movement of morality if you can just expose it and get people to recognize it.
	But how can you do that when you say the word spank and they're like, oh, well, that's just discipline, you know?
	Yeah.
	Oh, God.
	Well, I mean, people make their decisions in life based on what's comfortable.
	And right now, it's more comfortable to be a statist than to not be a statist, right?
	And so part of what I talk about is...
	Well, let's stop making it so comfortable to be a statist.
	I mean, if you can be a statist and then still break bread with your victims, then you don't feel like a bad guy, right?
	Exactly.
	Exactly.
	So I just want to also announce that I did my very first documentary on a man who has been fighting the cop establishment who was very badly victimized.
	It ruined his entire life.
	This was back in 1982, and I interviewed him for a whole 60 minutes.
	Over an hour.
	And I cut it down and I did like a 10 minute thing.
	It took me forever.
	So I have a great appreciation for, you know, now I know why the people who do 20, 20 and 60 minutes get the big bucks and why it's taking you so long to get your documentary out.
	I'm sure it's going to be, but it's amateurish.
	But I think it's, my brother saw it.
	I had my brother to take a look at it and he was very emotionally touched by it, not in a nice way, but I absolutely exposed.
	Thank you.
	Everything that he reported to me, and he gave me some backup documentation that I put onto that documentary.
	And the message at the end is basically, and it's the title of the documentary, What Good is Government?
	Documentary of Dan Petrie's battle with corrupt cops.
	Because he tried to do everything by the book.
	I mean, there was corruption because of the war on drugs and stuff, and it ruined his entire life.
	And he tried to go to the FBI. I mean, to report this local corruption and they didn't do anything and he tried to sue.
	People who have tried to use the justice system and think that the justice system is about justice are either deluded or have never tried to use the justice system because it will always back off.
	Almost always backfire.
	I can't think of any time in which even the Rodney King, when he got his money, what did he have to go through to get that, for heaven's sakes?
	How is that even justice?
	Yeah, well, of course, people get their view of justice from the media, right?
	From TV shows, and they get their view of cops from cop shows.
	I mean, it's all silly, right?
	It's all just a bunch of Matrix nonsense.
	Now, I've got to get on to the next caller, but thank you so much for calling in.
	Always welcome.
	And if you can let the listeners know specifically how to get a hold of what you're doing online, that would be great.
	Just do a Google search or a YouTube search on Tiger Lily Gonzalez.
	And you had mentioned something about tigers being specific in the animal kingdom to being great at killing.
	Do you recall that?
	Because I've been looking all through your stuff to see if I can use that as a soundbite.
	Well...
	Tiger's being very good at killing.
	I mean, you know that the tiger can find your jugular with the teeth.
	The teeth are so sensitive in a tiger's mouth that they can actually find your pulse before they bite.
	So they know they're getting the greatest damage possible.
	So they're pretty good.
	They're pretty good at killing.
	Great.
	Thanks a lot.
	Have a great one, Steph.
	All right.
	Take care.
	Thank you so much.
	All right.
	Bye-bye.
	Next!
	All right, John, you're up next.
	Go ahead, John.
	Yes.
	Thank you for having me, Stefan.
	You're welcome.
	You're welcome.
	I'm sorry.
	I thought that was going to be a big pause there.
	I just can't, yeah, I can't get over the whole, the whole peeing in a jar thing was so coincidental because, you know, I was sitting in a park.
	I didn't say a jar.
	I didn't say a jar.
	Let's be specific.
	Coffee cup.
	No, no, no.
	She said she peed in a jar.
	Oh, she peed in a jar.
	Right, right, right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I had to pee in an old antifreeze jug while I was...
	I'm sitting in a parking lot hijacking somebody's Wi-Fi so I can talk to you, but...
	So, yeah.
	Excellent.
	Yeah, so, anyway, yeah.
	My questions are actually kind of off topic tonight.
	I grew up with an abusive childhood.
	I've always known that I've grown up with an abusive childhood.
	I never dealt with it.
	And also, in the past 20 years, I've been involved in an abusive marriage with children.
	And over the past year, I've come to realize that I've been in an abusive relationship for 20 years and that I haven't dealt with my old abuse.
	Before we go on, there's a roundabout thing you said.
	You've been involved in an abusive marriage with children.
	What does that mean?
	Does that mean you've been abusive towards your children?
	No, no.
	I have not.
	I have been involved in an abusive relationship where my wife has been abusive to me.
	She's not targeting the children.
	I'm her target.
	All right.
	So hang on.
	Let me just ask a couple of questions about that.
	And of course, I'm incredibly sorry to hear about your childhood.
	But so the children were not spanked or punished?
	Or what does that mean, she didn't target the children?
	Oh, no, no, no.
	It's more – I don't know.
	In my studies – I'm no psychologist or anything.
	But I'm convinced that she's most likely borderline personality disorder.
	And I'm her primary target most of the time.
	Most of the time, I'm her primary target.
	She kind of yells at the kids every once in a while, but most of the name-calling and throwing stuff, it's all me.
	And have the children witnessed that?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so that is abusive to the children, right?
	Yeah, yes, yes, yeah, that is.
	Alright.
	Okay, and how can I help you?
	Well, it's not just my wife that is a target, that I'm a target of.
	It's also my mother's.
	She's a very controlling kind of person and always has been, but my question is where I need help is, and I don't know what my father is, but anyway, I feel the need because I have relationships with all these people, and I need to talk to them about these things.
	I don't know if I should talk to them, if I should just continue to seek help You know, on my own and maybe eventually talk to them.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Are you still married?
	Yes.
	Alright.
	And how old are your kids?
	18, 16, 13, 11, and 8.
	What?!
	Wait, you had – okay, so you had – you had – wait, wait, you had 10 years, right?
	Did you not know your wife was kind of nutty after 10 years?
	You still have children with her?
	I kind of knew she was nutty.
	Yeah, I mean, I fucked up.
	Yeah, I fucked up.
	I've done something but fuck up for a long time.
	And yeah, I knew she was nutty before we even had our first child.
	Yeah, I bet you knew she was nutty after your first date, right?
	No, it took me a couple of weeks.
	Okay, why did it take you a couple of weeks?
	Was she perfectly sane and normal on your first date?
	Actually, I probably knew she was insane before I even dated her.
	We met in a restaurant.
	I was a cook.
	She was a waitress.
	We opened a small cafe, breakfast-lunch kind of deal.
	And yeah, we talked, and she was already in a relationship.
	I was kind of like the knight in shining armor kind of deal.
	She was evidently in this abusive relationship, and I saved her from it, but I don't think that's the case.
	Okay, so you met her, and I'm sorry, this is just for the other listeners, right?
	Because I'm sure you'd like to help people not get into this situation, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	Very, very tough.
	So the first time you started chatting with her, what kind of relationship was she in?
	She was...
	How was it abusive, the existing relationship?
	What was the problem with it?
	She said that her and her boyfriend fought.
	They were living together, had been living together for four years, and they fought all the time.
	He got physical with her a lot.
	So he hit her...
	No, never hit her.
	No.
	She told me one time that he had her up against a wall or something, maybe his hand on her throat or something like that.
	But she's never gone into detail too much about what happened.
	Okay, but when you first talked to her, she was in a relationship where there was threats of physical violence, right?
	No, no.
	Actually, I didn't find all this out until after I slept with her.
	No, no.
	You said that she was complaining about – oh, so you slept with a woman.
	Was she still going out with this four-year boyfriend?
	Not after I slept with her.
	No, no, but when you slept – wait, wait.
	When you slept with her, was she still going out?
	Okay, so she was in a four-year relationship, basically common-law marriage or whatever, right?
	So she was in a kind of marriage or a long-term live-in relationship and she slept with you, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And was there any other – did she talk about her own history before you slept together?
	First of all, how long did it take for you guys to sleep together after you met?
	We probably worked together – It was probably almost a year, I want to say.
	Yeah, almost a year that we worked together.
	Okay, now if you're, again, really honest for the benefit of the listeners, help other people avoid the situation, what were the signs in the year that you knew her that she was unstable, before you slept with her?
	Honestly, I can't...
	No, I had no signs.
	I had no signs.
	Bullshit.
	Bullshit.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm going to steal someone's Wi-Fi back to say, there's no way Crazy can act sane for a year.
	There's just no way.
	That would be called sane.
	See, we only worked together in the mornings, and it was, I don't know, I mean, you know, it was a professional kind of relationship, and, you know, we didn't get that involved, and, you know...
	You know, until later.
	I mean, we worked together.
	Like I said, I was a cook.
	She was a waitress.
	I wouldn't like romantically pursuing her probably until maybe a month or so when she maybe started giving me signals that she might be interested in me.
	So let's say that you didn't know that there was anything even remotely.
	She could have been a completely normal and healthy person.
	For a year, you didn't notice any signs whatsoever that she was unstable.
	Is that right?
	No, no.
	Not until the morning after I slept with her and she broke down.
	No, no, no, no.
	No, no.
	You're missing the point.
	You're missing the point.
	She slept with you.
	She was in a relationship, right?
	She cheated on her long-time boyfriend to sleep with you.
	So don't tell me it's the morning after that you found out there was a problem.
	There's a problem that she's sleeping with you when she's in a long-term relationship, right?
	So either you've got to be honest with me or you're not, right?
	But this show is about being honest, okay?
	You're right, you're right.
	Look, because if you try and find ways to excuse this knowledge stuff, then we can't really have a conversation.
	You're right.
	Because I can't have a conversation with people who are out to excuse mistakes.
	I'm not saying that you're a bad guy, right?
	I'm not attacking you.
	No, you're right.
	But I do have to point out that if you're telling me you didn't have any idea until after she cheated on you with basically her husband, you didn't have any idea until the morning after she cheated on you.
	Okay, so when she started showing signs that she was romantically interested in you, how healthy were you mentally at the time?
	Probably not very, but probably the best I've ever seen.
	Did you tell me you came out of an abusive childhood?
	I mean, that's what I'm saying, yeah.
	But see, at the time that I met her, I had been away from my...
	I had no contact with my parents for about three years.
	So, I mean, I was way unhealthy, but it was the best I had felt in three years because I had been away from that situation.
	But yeah, I was not healthy by any means at all.
	Right, right.
	Okay, so would you say she's intelligent?
	Maybe like, I don't know.
	I'd say like she's maybe intellectually mature, but not emotionally mature is kind of what I'm thinking.
	She can carry on an intelligent conversation.
	And what has she done with her life since?
	I guess obviously she's been producing quite a few carbon-based life forms, but what has she done anything with her life other than mom and parents?
	Or is she doing that at all?
	I mean, she's a stay-at-home mom.
	She's a stay-at-home mom.
	We practice unschooling.
	But, yeah, she doesn't do much.
	Well, parenting five kids, that's a hell of a lot, right?
	Well, you know, yes.
	I mean, she does, yeah.
	I mean, she cooks for the children.
	She...
	She cooks for the children.
	She makes sure that they're fed.
	she makes sure that, you know, the doctor's appointments are kept, that I take them to the, you know, I keep the, you know, this day I've got to go to take them to the doctor and, and, you know, and, and, and, and yeah, I mean, you know, she, she provides, you know, she, she's the mother She's doing all the providing for the children.
	And not just by herself.
	We both do it.
	Alright, so Do you have a specific question for me?
	I just want to point out that, look, if you come from an abusive history and you haven't seriously dealt with it, and I don't mean getting away from your parents, right?
	That's everyone's choice.
	I personally don't let abusive people in my life, and I don't give a shit that they carried me fundamentally in their womb for nine months.
	I don't let abusive people in my life.
	My daughter keeps asking me about...
	Not because he's abusive, although I think he was verbally abusive in one of his rebuttals, but she's just quite fascinated about somebody who wasn't super nice because everybody she knows is super nice.
	She's never heard a harsh word.
	She's never seen a raised voice.
	She's never seen any aggression.
	I just don't have that in my life.
	If people want to spend time with me, they have to be honest.
	They have to be decent.
	It doesn't mean I don't have conflicts with people.
	I have conflicts with people, but we work it out.
	We're obviously aggressive or abusive.
	I don't have those people in my life.
	Hang on.
	If you come from an abusive history and it's unprocessed, and by that I don't mean that you just have left your parents or whatever.
	I mean that's like saying, well, every woman who leaves an abusive marriage must now have dealt with it all.
	Well, no.
	I mean that's just the beginning.
	It's just the beginning.
	If you stop smoking, that doesn't mean that tomorrow you can run the Olympics.
	It's necessary but not sufficient.
	You certainly can't run the Olympics if you're a smoker.
	But if you stop smoking, then that is the beginning of slowing the downward descent of your health.
	It doesn't mean that you're going to be healthy.
	It means you're going to get less sick less quickly.
	It doesn't mean you can be healthy.
	So if you quit the abusive relationships, I think that's great.
	But it's just the beginning.
	It's the beginning of stopping the downward descent.
	It doesn't mean you're going up at all, right?
	And so, you know, therapy, self-knowledge, really working hard on yourself, it's a grueling and intense process.
	And it takes years.
	It takes years.
	And so people you're attracted to or who were attracted to you before, that process is heavily underway, are screwed up people.
	Hate to say it.
	Wish I could be less blunt.
	It's just a fact.
	I can see that.
	That was another question.
	It seems like they're attracted to me.
	You grew up with a dominant mom, which means that you are trained to do what women want.
	I don't know if my mom was the dominant.
	My mom wasn't the dominant one when my parents were together and they were growing up.
	I mean, most of the physical abuse came from my father.
	I mean, he was the dominant one in the house.
	Oh, I apologize.
	Sorry, you didn't mention...
	I thought you had mentioned that your mother was the dominant one.
	My apologies.
	Well, now she is.
	Now that they are divorced, my mother is the dominant one.
	And...
	And I mean, as far as I go, my mother is dominant over me.
	My father is not because I haven't had very limited contact with him for the past 20 years.
	And why do you have contact with your mother?
	I'm not saying you shouldn't.
	I'm just curious why.
	You know, it was more organic.
	I don't know.
	My dad's always been further away.
	He's always either been on one side of the country or the other.
	I don't know.
	Does that mean your father a robot?
	I don't understand.
	I don't know.
	It was more natural.
	I don't know.
	She was around more.
	My mom made herself available to me more than my dad has in my adult life.
	So that's probably why I have a relationship with her.
	Sorry.
	She's made herself – I don't know what that means.
	She's made herself more available to you.
	She's been around.
	You're wrong.
	I just don't follow what you're saying.
	I mean, she didn't move across the country.
	She stayed more local.
	She's come to the family get-togethers more than my dad has and stuff on each side of the family.
	So that's very passive on your part, right?
	Pardon?
	Well, so she's made the decision, not you.
	Well...
	Yeah, kind of, yeah.
	Yeah, she's made that decision.
	Yeah, you say, well, you know, my dad moved away so I don't see him, but my mom's here so I see her, right?
	Where's you?
	Your choice.
	Well, I feel obligated to honor thy mother.
	I'm sorry.
	I was – another little piece of history.
	I was distracted for ten years by Christianity.
	Well, but Christianity, of course, says to – Whatever you do to the least of your children, so you do unto me.
	Unless your mom is part of a radical spank Jesus group, then if she allowed your father to abuse you, then she did that to the deity, right?
	That's wrong.
	Yeah, I'm trying to explain logic to my mother to see how far that's going to get you.
	I'm not trying to explain logic to your mother.
	I'm trying to explain logic to you.
	I'm sorry, Stephan.
	Yes, I am sorry, Stephan.
	But I'm just pointing out that I'm trying to explain it to you.
	Yeah, but yeah, and I have tried to point those kind of things out to her.
	But, you know, a conversation with my mother is me speaking and her just saying, okay, okay, okay.
	And, you know, that's a conversation with my mother.
	So it's...
	Okay, so...
	The question then returns.
	Why is your mom in your life?
	Well, I have a financial obligation to her.
	What do you mean?
	Well, I'm living on the land that she owns and I borrowed some money from her for some lawyers last year.
	And you're talking to me over stolen Wi-Fi, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Alright, so what's your question?
	Well, my question is, I don't know.
	I think I had the question figured out before I started talking to you, but now it doesn't seem like a very good one.
	I mean, I just don't understand why I can't deal with these problems that I have with these people that I have relationships with.
	I'm happy to chat.
	I don't want to sound dismissive at all.
	I'm really happy to chat, but I just have to ask questions to make sure I understand what you're saying.
	What do you mean by deal with problems?
	What are the problems?
	Just give me one problem, and then what would dealing with it look like?
	Okay.
	Well, the problem with my wife's abusive attitude.
	I understand now that together, collectively, we're abusing our children now, and I can't allow this to happen anymore.
	And, you know, the court systems aren't set up.
	Wait, wait.
	You can't – first of all, I don't know that you can stop it from happening unless you can get sole custody with supervised visits, right, which is extremely unlikely.
	Yeah, that's not going to happen.
	Okay, so when you say it's really important that you don't give yourself plans that you can't fulfill, if that makes sense, right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Okay, so if your wife is harmful towards your children, if it doesn't fall into the category of abuse that is illegal, right?
	Again, I'm no lawyer, so this is just my thoughts on it, but I don't think that there's a huge amount that you can do.
	And if your wife, of course, has been a stay-at-home mom for like 20 years, and you've been supporting her, then, I mean, if you get divorced, You will be paying for the rest of your life, right?
	And for the kids, right?
	And if she is as unstable as you say, right?
	If you say, I don't know, you don't know and I don't know, but if the word borderline is as bad as you can get as far as a diagnosis goes, if that's true, then there would be no practical limit to what she might do to harm you during divorce proceedings, right?
	Yeah.
	She can accuse you of abuse, she can accuse you of molesting the children, and you are then tasked, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And so you are limited significantly in what it is that you can achieve, right?
	Yeah.
	So I think accepting those limitations is important so you don't set yourself goals that you can't achieve, right?
	Yeah, I think I have.
	I think I have.
	You have what?
	Accepted those limitations because, I mean, that's kind of why I'm here.
	It's why I'm talking to you.
	I don't know what to do.
	I mean, it seems like the deck is stacked against me and I don't have any legal recourse and And I don't have any kind of support system.
	I just, yeah.
	Well, is there any possibility that you could gather the information together, which would be pretty easy to find on the web, on the degree to which parental fighting harms children, and then talk to your wife about that?
	She's borderline.
	If I do that, I'm going to be accused of attacking her and she'll reverse the blame and say I'm the abusive one and that I'm fucked up and I need help and it'll cause a big fight and she'll go nuclear.
	That's what'll happen.
	Now, is there any possibility that you can simply remove yourself from the situation if she becomes abusive?
	I can just walk out of the house, right?
	Yeah, I mean, yeah, I can.
	Look, I'm sitting in a parking lot talking to you on stolen Wi-Fi, you know?
	So, yeah, I mean, I can get out.
	Normally, I would nag you about that, but this seems slightly higher priority.
	So, if she becomes abusive, you can leave the situation, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	I think that's certainly, I think you should not be exposing yourself to Abusive situations.
	What does your mom think of her?
	My mom doesn't like her.
	My mom doesn't like anybody.
	But yeah, my mom doesn't like her.
	And my wife doesn't like anybody.
	It's amazing how much they are alike.
	It's really not that amazing, but if you know what the patterns are, right?
	It would be quite surprising if they weren't, right?
	So did your mom say that you should or shouldn't get married to this woman back in the day?
	Neither did my mother.
	Were you in contact at all?
	Weren't in contact when you got married?
	Well, actually, yeah.
	I mean, well, no.
	But when we got married, no.
	Nobody knew that we were getting married.
	Nobody knew.
	I guess we went to a wedding chapel, a wedding chapel of Mesa.
	But we went to a wedding chapel.
	And why did you get married?
	I thought it would make her better.
	I thought, you know...
	Because, you know, I was such a failure in her eyes.
	I just thought, you know, I don't know.
	I thought it was what she wanted.
	I thought it would make her happy and everything would be okay.
	Wait, she thought you were a failure?
	What do you mean?
	I mean, she's always called me names and stuff.
	And nothing's ever been good enough for her.
	So, you know, I... So, she said yes to marry a man that she thought was an abject failure.
	Is that right?
	I guess so.
	And of course, I mean, based on your history, and I mean this with all sympathy, that didn't strike you as insane.
	Like, oh man, this is the worst possible restaurant we can go to.
	Let's go eat there every day for the rest of our lives.
	Honestly, Stefan, in the past year, you know, I don't know, the past year I've had such, I don't know, this awakening kind of thing.
	And I am dumbfounded by the amount of things that didn't strike me as odd or wrong or strange or, you know, just, you know, I just can't believe the amount of stuff that I had just done.
	And I hope that, you know, it's natural that you wouldn't have seen any of this stuff.
	Like, I'm pointing this stuff out.
	But it's natural that...
	You wouldn't have seen this stuff because this is how you were raised.
	This was the social environment.
	There's a lot of white knighting going on, saving women from their own bad choices and all that kind of stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	And so I hope that you don't think I'm sort of saying, well, I can't believe you didn't see that.
	That's ridiculous, right?
	I'm sort of pointing it out now so that you can see it because what I want you to see, at least what I think is important to see, is that there's so much that we can't see about ourselves.
	And I was in a relationship.
	It wasn't really abusive, but it was not a very positive relationship off and on for like seven years.
	And you know what it was for me?
	And I'm not trying to talk about me like take it away from you, but I really want to sort of tell you that you're not the only person who's been in this boat.
	I have five kids and all that.
	But I was in a relationship that was not positive off and on for about seven years.
	And nobody said anything to me about it, really.
	Finally, one person said something just obliquely, and I started working with that.
	It doesn't take a lot, but what it means is that there was no one around you who could help you.
	And I'm incredibly sorry about that.
	There was no one around you who could say, dude, wait a minute, wait a minute, think this through.
	You know, she had an affair with you.
	She had a relationship with a guy who was physically aggressive, and she stayed with him for four years.
	Sorry.
	No, no, no.
	Anyway, story straight.
	And that says something about her.
	Find out about her childhood.
	Find out about her values.
	Dude, she calls you names.
	She thinks you're a loser.
	She thinks you're a failure.
	Do you really want that in your ear for the rest of your life?
	Or somebody to say, dude, stop having children with her, right?
	Or at least, you know, be married to her for a while.
	See if you get along before you have kids.
	See if this is the kind of person you want to have kids with and all that.
	We were together three years before we got married.
	For how long?
	Three years before we got married and had children.
	And how were those three years?
	The first two weeks were good.
	You mean the sex fest was good?
	Yeah, the first two weeks was good.
	Yeah, beware women who want to drown out your judgment with pussy.
	That's really important, right?
	If they want to drown you in cats, that's not a good sign.
	A woman who's willing to wait is willing to say, hey, get to know me before my snug harbor.
	Sorry, you were saying?
	Can I tell you what you wanted to know for your listeners?
	The biggest red flag that I ignored that was just...
	The biggest red flag.
	After the two-week sex fest, when she moved in with me, we had sex, and immediately after the first time we had sex in our new apartment, she said, I really don't want our relationship to be based on sex.
	So I go bribe someone at NSA. I don't want our relationship to be based on bribery.
	Yeah.
	So, you know, yeah, there you go.
	There's a red flag for you.
	So, yeah, beware of the, I think they call that the, yeah, I forgot what they call that, the whole sex fest at the beginning, and then it stops.
	Yeah, and for women, the equivalent is a guy who pays for a lot, right?
	That's not good, right?
	Anyway.
	So, yeah, I hope, I mean, the fact that you're waking up, I mean, fantastic.
	I mean, I'm never going to say that it's ever a bad thing.
	I get that it's a huge challenge in your situation, right?
	Because if your youngest is 10, right, and you've got eight years at least before...
	He's eight.
	I got ten years.
	My youngest is eight.
	Oh, he's eight.
	Right, right, sorry.
	He's epileptic, yes.
	No, I'm sorry about that.
	Wow.
	So, I mean, there's no, as you know, I mean, there's no...
	There's no magic solution here.
	I mean, you're definitely in a corner.
	I'm fucked.
	I'm just fucked.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, but that doesn't mean there's nothing you can do, right?
	I mean, even in prison, you can do push-ups, right?
	Yeah, I've been trying to set boundaries, which pretty much is not talking to my mother or not talking to my wife, except for, you know, what's for supper tonight?
	Do I need to get this at the store?
	Other than that, there's no talking.
	So, you know, and that's really, I guess, you know, I've already tried to tell her, you know, don't call me names and stuff.
	That doesn't work.
	She just laughs at me.
	So, you know, I just try not to talk to her other than, you know, get the daily tools done.
	She knows she's got all the power, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, power...
	It's funny how we always talk about how power corrupts, but the amount of power that women have in modern marriages, we never consider that to be corrupting.
	Apparently, power only corrupts male politicians, right?
	Never women, right?
	Yeah.
	So, I mean, is there any chance that you can get to a therapist?
	There's a friend of my family who's the friend of the other side of my family, not my crazy mom's side, but my crazy dad's side.
	And...
	And, you know, I can't afford it, so I have five kids.
	I'm the sole provider of our family.
	I can't afford it.
	And don't you have to stop talking to me and get back to work or something?
	Yeah, exactly.
	You know, yeah, fucking exactly.
	And how often do you get thanks for that?
	I don't get thanks for that.
	Well, I'm sorry about that.
	That is something that's truly tragic.
	You know, like I remember in this relationship I had, the woman was always like, well, we lived in a pretty small ground floor of a house and all that.
	And she's like, well, I did the dishes.
	It's like, well, I paid all the bills.
	You want to switch?
	You want to go pay all the bills and I'll spend 20 minutes doing the goddamn dishes?
	It was insane.
	It was like everything she did needed like fireworks and praise and cards and all that kind of stuff and I had to do half and all of that.
	But when it came to paying the bills, that was completely invisible to her.
	It's like some magic sky fairy just shat money on the creditors.
	That was never – she's like, well, I did this and contributed to the relationship.
	I just went to work for 10 hours.
	That's me contributing to the relationship.
	Yeah, it doesn't matter how much money is in the bank account.
	The debit card still works even when you're overdrafting.
	So, you know, it doesn't matter.
	It doesn't matter.
	Yeah, so I tried to get to a therapist.
	I would certainly obviously start reading up on some men's rights issues.
	Paulie Lam has been on the show.
	He's got some smart stuff to say.
	I listened to Girl Rights What?
	All the wrong word.
	She's great to listen to.
	And just not to try and, you know, get the balls back.
	I hate to put it this way.
	And it's not about being aggressive or anything like that.
	You're right, yeah.
	You lost them, right?
	They're in a jar.
	Yeah.
	Your mom, your wife.
	And this doesn't have anything to do with yelling or being confrontational or anything like that.
	But just try and get, you know, society grinds down, man, a lot these days.
	I mean, it always has.
	You also, I did a podcast recently called...
	How a man's heart is murdered.
	Yeah, that was good.
	So just try and reclaim some sense of power.
	The legal system obviously is stacked against you and the number of kids that provide a role and all of that sort of stuff.
	But I think Working to try and reclaim some of your sense of efficacy and power I think is important.
	You need your kids for you not to be this sort of slow-shouldered, shuffling-forward, staring at the sidewalk, broken-up married guy, right?
	Yeah.
	That's what I'm most worried about.
	And I thought we were doing the right thing by keeping them out of the public schools.
	That's good.
	And yeah, I mean, you know, I've tried so hard to make sure that they did not grow up like I did.
	And it's almost like I can't avoid it.
	They're going to be exposed to this shit no matter what I do.
	And I just...
	I just wish I could spare them.
	I just wish I could spare them.
	And I hugely respect and empathize with that.
	I mean, our desire to spare our children from the effects of the harms that were done to us and the mistakes that we've made is overwhelming.
	And I hugely respect your desire for that.
	And there's a lot that you can do even within the environment that you're in.
	So I really, really want to express my sympathies for it.
	It is – there's a line that has always resonated from me from Fight Club.
	We are a generation of men raised by women.
	I'm not sure another woman is what we need.
	And it took me some time.
	Learning – it's funny.
	I mean to me it's always been funny when people talk about the patriarchy, right?
	I mean all of the men in my family went to war and got their fucking heads blown off.
	Yeah.
	And so the idea – I mean if it was a patriarchy, we'd all be sending women off to war.
	We'd be fighting ourselves.
	That's messy.
	It's dangerous, right?
	And I just saw nothing but female power all around when I was growing up.
	And true, it was female power that relied on male power, right?
	So women would call the cops if they got upset and the cops were all men and they'd come by and threaten other men, right?
	Because they're all – I was always raised by women.
	It was four aunts on each side of the family, eight aunts, and no men except for my father.
	But yeah, it was all eight women and two grandmothers that raised me.
	Yeah, there was this panel recently on male birth control.
	A bunch of women talking about male birth control, right?
	So they're working on this hormonal treatment.
	A man goes to get injections.
	It kills his sperm production for a couple of months, right?
	And the women were all like, oh, basically that's terrible.
	I mean, how are we going to have our happy little accidents, so to speak, right?
	Oh, I guess I forgot to take my pill.
	Whoops, there we go.
	Here's 20 years of bills for me paid, right?
	And they also said, well, how are we going to know if the man actually is on birth control?
	And they went, what if the man is deceiving us?
	What if there's a problem with it?
	What if, what if, what if, right?
	And literally...
	Not one of them on this panel went on and on.
	I'm waiting for it.
	I'm waiting for one woman to turn to the other and say, well, you know, I guess men have been facing this exact same problem for the past hundred fucking thousand years.
	But no, all they did was talk about how it affected them and how it was going to be difficult for them to trust and how they're going to know for sure and what if the man doesn't do that, right?
	Yeah.
	And how could the man then have control over their reproductive powers?
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Hello!
	Right?
	Hello!
	Over here in reality, your self-absorbed little wenches.
	Hello!
	Tiny shred of empathy.
	You're all supposed to be the empathetic sex.
	Throw a little love to the man's side of the fence, right?
	Hello!
	But you can't pierce that kind of narcissistic self-involvement.
	You just can't.
	It's so obvious, right?
	But it's just inconceivable.
	That, you know, because women are my body, my choice.
	Yeah, your body, your choice.
	Your body, your responsibility.
	You want to have a kid?
	Have a kid.
	You cannot turn a man into your slave because you want to have a kid.
	Man can't force you to have a kid.
	You can't force a man to pay you for a kid.
	Yeah.
	And this is, again, you know, it's really, really hard to find this kind of stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, as far as I'm concerned, you know, my...
	I mean, I live with a little girl and a fantastic woman.
	But I find men, in general, much more empathetic than women.
	Much more empathetic.
	I do as well.
	I do too.
	I find them to be much more sensitive.
	Yeah, and they just...
	They tend to listen when women don't.
	Really, I don't know.
	I don't think I've ever had a woman listen to me.
	Yeah, I mean...
	you're saying into calculations of personal benefit or loss.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Like a woman often will hear something, not all women, right?
	But a woman will hear something and she's either, she's just going to get upset.
	And it's like, but it's not about you.
	This is my problem.
	I'm upset about something.
	Why is this suddenly all about you?
	It's like this is narcissistic vacuum that just sucks all conversations into how it relates to the woman's immediate self-interest.
	But it's...
	Let me have the space to talk without it being about you, without you reacting in some way that makes it not about me anymore.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah I So a woman wrote in the chat, says, ha ha, Steph.
	Let me just see here what she says.
	Ha ha ha ha.
	She says, Steph, try getting pierced by a dude that pretends to slip on a rubber.
	All right.
	Let me just take a moment to respond to this fine woman's question.
	First of all, if I was being pierced by...
	Oh yeah, I guess if I was gay and concerned about...
	An STD or AIDS, then sure.
	I'm not sure that I would have sex with a man who I couldn't trust to put on a rubber.
	That would sort of be the first thing that would be important to me.
	Secondly, I do think – I've never heard of that before – but I do know that approximately one in ten fathers is not the actual father of the child that he thinks he's the father of.
	And so I would imagine that it's a little bit more common.
	For women to deceive a man about his offspring than it is for a man to pretend to put on a condom?
	I mean, also, I mean, can't you see whether there's a condom on the penis that's going in and out of your vagina?
	I mean, they're not invisible.
	They're not magical.
	They're not force fields, right?
	I mean, they're actually there, right?
	You could reach down and feel that penis and see.
	If it feels like rubber, there's probably rubber on it.
	Or it's a really cunning lesbian strap-on that I don't know, right?
	That your Japanese businessman is enhancing himself with.
	So, no, I really don't think that's particularly equivalent.
	You know, obviously there should be paternity tests in hospitals, right?
	If one in ten dads is father of a child, it's not his.
	I mean, can you imagine if one in ten babies were switched, one in ten mothers' babies were switched in the hospital?
	Women would go insane, and that problem would be dealt with in approximately 12 seconds.
	But remember, it's a patriarchy, everyone.
	Men have all the power.
	Men have all the power, you see.
	Which is why men, actually in England, can't even get a paternity test without the woman's permission.
	Because remember, it's a patriarchy, women have all the power.
	As I noticed from all the single moms and school teachers and all that who were women raising the kids.
	But...
	It is a terrifyingly matriarchal world for some people and I think that it's – I mean in a way, it's half women's fault, half men's fault of course, right?
	I mean most people are just amoral advantage seekers and women can get away with a lot and the structure has evolved within society to enable women to get away with a lot.
	So I can half blame them but it's half men too, right?
	This is why the MGTOW and all of these men going their old way guys are a very – it's a very interesting phenomenon to me.
	I try to catch up on a lot of the arguments that they make.
	I find it absolutely fascinating and you might look into that just in terms of trying to understand.
	I mean it's been a long time since I was in the dating world, but I'm quite fascinated by – This non-involvement with women.
	Again, I'm very happily married and will remain so until nature takes one of us off.
	But I do think that it's worth looking into just to get some understanding of where men are in terms of reclaiming power.
	And I certainly appreciate the arguments that you never marry a woman.
	You marry a woman and the state.
	And when you marry a woman, you give her...
	Astounding power over you because the state is the third party and it's the bomb that the woman can detonate at any time and take your life out of your hands and have you shoved in a tiny studio apartment right by the airport struggling to get by on the leftovers while wife and kids take all your money It means you're unable to date because no woman wants a guy who's leftovers from a predatory
	divorcee.
	And this is why some men kill themselves over this.
	When you get married, you marry the woman and you marry the state.
	And power corrupts.
	It doesn't mean don't get married.
	I mean, why would I say that?
	I'm married.
	And wouldn't want it any other way.
	But it means you have to have the very highest standards of trust and love.
	And the very highest standards of integrity from the woman.
	And she either better be a heavily committed anti-statist, which means she ain't going to use the state for power over you, or maybe you all think about a prenup.
	Christoph, tell me about the video I have to watch about marriage from Charles Murray.
	Oh, I love Charles Murray.
	Fantastic guy.
	I will look it up.
	So watch the video about marriage from Charles Murray.
	Marriage is another statist institution, unfortunately.
	It's just been co-opted and owned by the state now.
	Women vote more, and women need state power more than men, so statism is, to a significant degree, run by women in the old.
	That's pretty catastrophic.
	Young, strong, healthy males are kind of ground down under the system, I think, a lot.
	So yeah, I would definitely try and talk to a therapist and try and find some way to regain some sense of power, even within your own mind.
	I think that's important, but I'm very sorry for the situation that you're in.
	I appreciate this.
	I appreciate it, Stefan.
	I really do.
	And my wife, actually, she listens to your show from time to time over my shoulder and stuff.
	So if she happens to hear this, you know...
	Got any advice for both of us?
	No.
	Not for both of you because I don't think there is a both of you at the moment.
	But I will – what's your wife's name?
	Jennifer.
	Jennifer.
	Hi, Jennifer.
	How are you?
	I hope you're doing well.
	Well, first of all, your guy bringing home the bacon and scratch for you and five kids, that is, to use an ancient Latin phrase, a fuckton of work.
	And I hope that you can find it in your heart to appreciate how much work he does to keep the family housed and fed and the kids in dentists and all of that.
	That is a massive amount of work and it's a huge amount of responsibility.
	Look, I'm a stay-at-home dad to one kid.
	So being a stay-at-home mom to five kids, my brain blows up like a helium balloon at the end of a...
	A sperm whale's blowhole just to think of what kind of responsibility and stress that must be.
	So hats off to you for managing it, particularly by homeschooling them and so on.
	But you can't be fighting with your husband in front of your kids.
	My wife and I had one disagreement, which was never a raised voice, but it was quite a strong disagreement about something.
	Two years ago, my daughter still remembers it.
	And, of course, it was in no ways negative.
	Nothing was thrown.
	No was yelling.
	No name-calling.
	We just had a strong disagreement about it.
	I don't even remember what it was because I'm a guy, so negative stuff kind of rolls off me in a lot of ways, perhaps too much sometimes.
	But you can't be fighting in front of your kids because you are showing them what adults do.
	You are showing them how adult relationships work every time you interact with your husband in front of your children.
	You are teaching them as surely as you taught them the word for tree and hat and dog and frog and cat and as surely as you taught them all of the sounds of the alphabet and what two and two make you are teaching them how relationships work and they will do what you do and I'm sure there's stuff about your marriage you like,
	but the stuff about your marriage that you don't like, that you act out on in front of your kids, they will absorb and imbibe and repeat.
	Now, I assume that you would not at all say to your children that the word for tree is blowjob.
	Say, oh, look, there's a whole forest of blowjobs over there.
	Wow!
	The leaves from that blowjob are really falling off.
	Oh, look, there's a knot hole in that blowjob.
	I can't believe that woodpecker is pecking that blowjob.
	And then you'd say, okay, go hiking with your friends.
	Look, there's an evergreen blowjob!
	Right?
	Do you know that paper is made from blowjobs?
	Anyway, we could go on and on like that.
	But you get the point, that that would be pretty horrific to teach your child something like that, right?
	Yeah.
	Do you know that Jesus was nailed to two blowjobs?
	You wouldn't want that, right?
	And so you don't want to teach your children the wrong words for things, particularly if it's going to make their life difficult.
	And you don't want to teach your children the wrong way to be in love.
	The wrong way to respect the father of your children.
	Right?
	I mean, teaching them the wrong word for tree, pretty problematic, not catastrophic.
	Right?
	And yet, teaching them the wrong way to be in love is something that will follow them for the rest of their lives and will define how their relationships work out.
	And listen, you are going to be a grandmother one day, right?
	And you want to get along with your daughters-in-law and sons-in-law, which means you don't want them to be yelly or throwy or hitty or screaming or resentful or manipulative or any of those kinds of things because that's just going to mean you're going to have more dysfunction in your life rather than less.
	And you don't want that, particularly when you get older, right?
	I mean, you get older, you get a little bit more tired, a little bit less capable of handling all of this discord and all that kind of stuff, right?
	So if you teach them better ways to love, they'll love you more and more consistently.
	And who they choose to date and marry will be happier people, more...
	Gracious people, more polite people, more reasonable people, and that's going to make your life a whole lot easier when you get older, right?
	And so, first of all, I know that I've only heard your husband's side of things, right?
	Okay, I get it.
	I'm sure he can be annoying.
	He annoyed me once or twice at the conversation, but that's more my stuff than anyone else's, so that's not any kind of objective thing.
	So I get, you know, you want to correct him and say that, you know, he didn't tell me this, that and the other.
	I get that.
	I'm not, you know, I'm not, you know, just fall off the, I didn't just fall out of the blowjob yesterday.
	So I get that these things that are frustrating and annoying.
	His mother, I would imagine, would be one of them, and I could sympathize with any issues you may have about that.
	But he didn't choose his mother, like you know that, right?
	He didn't choose his mother.
	And we live in a society where you can divorce some abusive loser, but if you have abusive losers as parents, everyone says, you've got to stick with them until they're dead, right?
	All the siblings don't want anyone else to get away.
	Shoulder the burden that everyone feels they have.
	So I get that you have your complaints and so on, right?
	But he didn't choose his parents, you didn't choose your parents.
	And the effects that our parents have on us is not our fault.
	What we do with that is our responsibility, but the parents we have is not our fault.
	You gotta stop.
	Stop.
	I mean, S-T-O-P, stop.
	Calling the father of your children Negative names.
	That has to stop.
	You don't have the right to put that into your children's heads.
	Like, you know you don't have the right to put poison into their bodies.
	You don't have the right to put abuse into their heads.
	You just don't.
	Because it's bad for them.
	It harms their thinking.
	It harms their growth.
	It harms their emotional development.
	It is poisonous to the brain to be exposed to throwing, to yelling, to name-calling, to verbal abuse.
	Even if it's not directed at the children...
	It is really bad.
	Because it makes the kids into a lose-lose environment.
	So if they love their dad and you're calling their beloved dad bad names, they're going to end up hating you.
	Obviously.
	And that's not going to work for you.
	I don't want that for you.
	If they think you're great...
	And you're calling their dad all these bad names and throwing things at him, they're going to end up hating their dad.
	And then they have to ask themselves, why did you marry someone that we all hate?
	And that's not going to work out well for you either.
	But it can't be win-win if your fights are at each other's expense.
	It can't be win-win for you and it sure as hell can't be win-win for the kids.
	They are in an impossible situation.
	You can't put your kids in impossible situations because they have no choice about where they are.
	They didn't choose you guys as parents, they didn't choose to be born, and they sure as hell don't have any effect or influence on how you guys interact.
	You need to model peace and calm and affection, even if you don't feel it as best as you can manage in the moment.
	Let your kids hear You say something nice about their dad at least once a day.
	If you have to grit your teeth and do it, squeeze it out like the last Adam from an empty toothpaste tube, just do it.
	Hey, man, thank you for going to work today.
	Thank you.
	Right?
	Hey, good shaving.
	Right?
	So...
	Let them hear something positive about their dad every day.
	Right?
	And let's go see your husband, too.
	Let the kids hear something positive.
	You know, hey, look, I left in the morning.
	There were five kids.
	I come home, still five kids.
	Good job, Mom.
	All alive!
	Yay!
	Right?
	Maybe I'll get a tree tonight.
	Anyway.
	But...
	But you can't be putting each other down.
	I mean, don't put each other down at all.
	Because you're in for the duration.
	You've got five kids.
	You've got still a decade to go, you know?
	At least.
	There's ways that you can make it a hell of a lot more fun than it is.
	There's ways that you can make it a hell of a lot more positive than it is.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	But you have to just make that choice.
	Grit your teeth.
	Be positive.
	You know, there's some stuff like you just – in life, you just have to grit your teeth and change it, right?
	And with this around the negativity, the fighting, the throwing, the cursing, the yelling, the name-calling, you just have to grit your teeth and stop it.
	You deal with all these issues that will come up when you stop doing that.
	But at some point, you know, if you want to lose weight, you can do all the self-work you want.
	At some point, you just got to put down the damn piece of cheesecake, right?
	And then deal with whatever comes up out of that, right?
	At some point, you just have to stop buying cigarettes, right?
	So, that's what I would say to her.
	Thank you very much.
	I could not have put that better myself.
	That was good.
	Thank you very much.
	Can I just share with you something someone typed in the chat room?
	Damn hippies, blowjob huggers.
	Everybody's working on that.
	Blowjob huggers.
	Wait, what was the other one?
	Oh, yeah.
	The blowjob of liberty must occasionally be watered with the sperm of patriots or something like that, I think.
	I guess, isn't it called having wood when you have an erection?
	Anyway, I have absolutely no doubt this is going to be sliced and put into a gif at some point.
	And the Lord spake unto Adam and Eve, Yea, shall ye eat from any blowjob in the garden, but keep ye away from the blowjob of knowledge of good and evil.
	Keep away from it, or ye shall surely die.
	All right.
	Well, I think that's it for callers.
	Is it right, Mike?
	Actually, there's one more person on the line if you want to go that long.
	That lightning storm was really scary.
	I woke up with a blowjob on top of my car.
	What was it?
	There was some meme on Facebook the other day, which was take any movie you like and replace one word with vagina.
	And mine was a vagina with a view.
	Anyway.
	All right.
	All right.
	That's right.
	If you can't find paper made from blowjobs, you can use rice paper.
	All right.
	Let's do one more.
	Steel vaginas.
	Hey!
	We can't talk about steel vaginas because that's going to bring all the zeitgeisters back.
	Anyway, go on.
	My big fat Greek vagina.
	Turner, you're up next today.
	Yeah, we did one a while back, which was In Your Pants.
	Just add In Your Pants to any movie title, and you can actually come up with some pretty fine stuff.
	Vagina Wars, Kingdom of Vagina.
	Absolutely.
	Vaginacracy.
	Anyway.
	Sorry, who's up next?
	I'm going to keep doing these during the next conversation, just so everybody knows.
	Turner, go ahead.
	Hey, Steph.
	How are you doing?
	Vagina.
	I'm sorry.
	Go ahead.
	Yes.
	Well, thank you.
	Okay.
	Okay, so I'm a bit nervous, so just bear with me on that.
	I guess I'll just start off by saying thanks for all you do.
	It's...
	I mean, I'm constantly amazed at the connections that you make, and I'm sure there's tons of research that I don't even know the half of what goes on, but...
	Just thanks for all you do, and...
	Yeah.
	I'll...
	I guess I'll go...
	What people see is the tip of the iceberg about what goes on underneath the show, but I appreciate that.
	Can I just add one other thing?
	Sure.
	The first rule of Vagina Club.
	You do not talk about Vagina Club.
	Alright, that's it!
	Let's move on.
	Okay.
	But I'll just...
	As I've been...
	Watching your stuff.
	And I noticed that I've been feeling this way in other areas.
	Because you always get the callers that...
	They're not there to ask a question and things like that.
	But for some reason, when I hear that, there's a physical pain that goes on inside me.
	When I hear someone or see someone being rejected like that, even if I know that what they're doing isn't appropriate, I still feel...
	Oh, so when I say to somebody, I'm not going to continue this conversation, that makes you feel like, ugh, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	It's the most intense pain that isn't physical for me to bear with.
	Wow, that's incredible.
	Yeah.
	I don't mean bad or weird or anything.
	First of all, I'm really glad you're sharing that.
	It's pretty rare.
	It happens maybe one every five or ten shows, but it's pretty rare.
	I've just been watching your stuff on YouTube.
	It's a pain that goes on inside me.
	Like every other thing, it's probably something in my childhood that I haven't taken care of.
	So I'd appreciate your insight on...
	On that aspect, I guess.
	Sure.
	Now, the phrase that comes to my mind is heartbreak.
	That it's heartbreaking.
	And trying to sort of figure out where you're coming from.
	Is that anywhere close to it or is it something else?
	I don't know if it's heartbreak.
	It's an overwhelming sense of...
	Uneasiness.
	I just want it to go away.
	I don't know what...
	I don't think it's...
	Okay, but what do you want?
	You want the feeling to go away, right?
	Yeah.
	Alright, and just so I can get this out of my head, you know the movie Moby Dick?
	I've read the book.
	I've never seen any movie of...
	Okay, there's a movie with Gregory Peck called Moby Dick, and just to do the last vagina joke, Vagina Dick.
	Alright, that's it.
	That's it!
	Last one, I promise.
	Um...
	Lord of the Vaginas.
	Anyway, so what is it that you think causes you that level of pain?
	I think that I wasn't allowed to speak my mind as a child or to actually make any meaningful change with my opinions as a child.
	So is it – you know what they generally – it's a kind of loosey-goosey word, so it's always tough to use.
	But what they say by boundaries, like boundaries.
	Because what I'm doing is setting up a boundary and there are times when I would have more patients with a one-on-one call.
	Because, you know, I do a bunch of listener calls.
	A lot of them don't even get published.
	It's just sort of people who want, you know, some sort of feedback and whatever, right?
	But when it's a public show, I need to be respectful of my listeners' time, right?
	A couple hundred thousand listeners over time, you know, if I spend half an hour, you know, 200,000 listeners, 100,000 hours I'm slicing out of the world, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So I do have to be respectful.
	And look, if people want to call back, this is to everyone.
	If I've cut you off and you've sorted it out or if I've said, look, you're not telling me the truth, there was a guy called in and gave me three bullshit things in a row.
	And the guy who called in tonight was – he said it wasn't until the morning after that I realized she was crazy and I said, no, come on.
	This is not true, right?
	And he slept with you.
	And he said, yeah, you're right, right?
	So it's when people are really just consistently not telling the truth, right?
	You can't do anything.
	I've always said truth is the first requisite for virtue, right?
	Honesty.
	And so people who've called in, you are welcome back.
	I mean, this is not like a one-way shoot or something.
	If people want to call back, they can.
	I don't call residual hostility, right?
	Yeah.
	I guess it's that I never felt that I could call back, in a sense.
	With who?
	You mean with your family?
	Yeah, with my parents, I guess would be the major...
	Yeah, you know, because this is one of the reasons I don't – I dislike the idea of boundaries is that people always talk about boundaries like you've got to set boundaries at work or you've got to set boundaries with your employees or sometimes even with your spouse.
	I don't think I've ever seen anyone say to kids, here's how you set boundaries with your parents, right?
	Yeah.
	But that's important.
	Is that what you're talking about?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, well, I never felt that I could speak my mind at any time.
	So I guess, yeah, there were those boundaries that...
	Well, no, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Sorry.
	Let me just...
	I know this is a bit foggy and we haven't talked about anything specific yet.
	So, you know, I'm just asking for patience with me on this.
	Did your parents talk to you?
	I mean, obviously, I would assume they talked to you.
	Well, you didn't talk to each other, right?
	And did they talk to you about stuff you didn't want them to talk to you about or stuff that wasn't interesting to you or anything like that?
	I mean I was – I was raised in a religious household, I was raised in a religious household, so I guess there was a lot of stuff that they told me that I wasn't interested in.
	Well, maybe it's alarming, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So were you able to set boundaries with your parents?
	And let me give you an example of this, right?
	So when I was driving today with my daughter, she was asking about the movie Nanny McPhee.
	We watched that movie the other day and she found it very interesting.
	And so we talked about it.
	And I was telling her the story.
	She wanted to hear the story.
	And at one point I started talking about something else.
	And she said, Daddy, actually, that's not very interesting to me.
	Can we get back to the story, please?
	And I said, well, yeah.
	Right?
	Of course.
	Thank you so much for telling me.
	I don't want to be boring.
	I don't want to bore you.
	So thank you so much for telling me.
	I appreciated her telling me that.
	And we dropped it and we went back to the topic she wanted to chat about.
	Now, later, after I had told her the entire movie story three or four times, I said, I'm done telling the story.
	She's like, no, I want to hear it again.
	And I said, I understand that, but I don't want to tell it again because I'd like to chat about something else.
	And she said, oh, please, please.
	And I said, look, if you were watching the same five-minute cartoon over and over again, would you find that interesting?
	And she said, no.
	I'd get bored.
	And I said, well, yeah.
	So for me telling this story over and over again, you know, I can tell it later or tomorrow or whatever, but I just don't want to keep telling the story over and over again because I found I was getting distracted.
	Like I wasn't really present in the car.
	I was just sort of mechanically repeating the story, but I was sort of thinking about other things and pausing and, you know, I wasn't able to stay connected to telling her the story.
	So I recognized that I was – so she set a boundary with me, which is, so to speak, she didn't want to hear about the other thing I was talking about.
	And then I set a boundary with her where I didn't want to keep telling the same story.
	And I'm very happy that we both did that because I want to fiercely protect our enjoyment in speaking with each other, right?
	Yeah.
	And so let me just sort of give you an analogy, right?
	So when people make a movie, they'll put together a rough cut and they will screen it, right?
	Yeah.
	And you've probably heard of movies that were pulled and their release date and they reshot some stuff and they changed the ending and the alternative ending is on the director's cut and shit like that, right?
	That's because they really want people to like the movie, to enjoy the movie.
	So they will show cuts of the movie and they will try – like they show it internally to the studio directors, the writers, to other people, to critics, and they'll show it to an audience.
	It's called the test audience and they will really work to refine the movie so that it's as great a movie as it can be in terms of obviously its ability to part people with their money and give them something positive in return.
	And that's how hard people work over a movie in terms of getting feedback and improving the quality of what it is that they're providing, right?
	So why the hell wouldn't we do that in our relationships with conversations, right?
	Yeah.
	So you weren't able to say to your parents, I don't want to talk about this.
	This is alarming to me.
	This is scary to me.
	This is whatever, right?
	Yeah.
	I never...
	I never felt that I could...
	I guess it's kind of...
	It's not that there were...
	I don't know.
	I couldn't...
	I couldn't speak my mind...
	So it's a boundary in the sense that there were no boundaries.
	I don't know.
	I'm afraid that does not seem to work from a logical standpoint, but try again.
	Sorry.
	The boundary was that I couldn't speak my mind.
	That was...
	That's not a boundary.
	A boundary is where you have reasonable and mutual limits on each other's behavior.
	A one-way rule, that's not a boundary.
	That's just oppressive, right?
	That's erasure, right?
	Yeah, there were no boundaries set on both sides then.
	No.
	No, no, no, no.
	Sorry.
	It means that you could not set boundaries.
	Oh, I think I see it.
	So you could not set boundaries on your parents, right?
	In other words, you couldn't say this is not what I want to talk about, right?
	Yeah.
	So, I'm very sorry for that.
	And let me take a guess as to what is happening when this occurs for you, right?
	Sure, go ahead, yeah.
	So, when somebody is...
	To my mind, not able to make the bare requirements for a philosophical conversation.
	And I cease to interact with them.
	You wanted to do this, I bet, as a kid.
	Yeah, I've always loved debates and...
	Yeah, so you wanted to do this when you were a kid with your parents, right?
	And then when I do it, when I do it, what would have happened if you did what I do with my listeners, if you had done that with your parents as a kid?
	I guess usually it would have been with my mom since she would have been around more since my dad's at work, but she would have just...
	She might have entertained it for maybe a couple minutes, but then she would say, I'm done talking.
	And then she would...
	She would just leave without...
	Yeah, she would...
	And if I did try and push it anymore, she would either ground me or send me to my room or things like that.
	Well, okay, but what if you...
	And I appreciate that, and that's certainly not the right way to interact with kids, but...
	What if you said to mom, to your mom, mom, I don't want to go to church anymore?
	Um, she would...
	She would probably say, um, you're in my household, you're...
	you're gonna do what I say you you you Basically, I have authority over you.
	I've never asked her that, so I'm not exactly sure, but it would be something along those lines that the family is...
	Ordained of God, and since me and your dad have this family, we can say what you do, and we have the end authority over that.
	Right, so it would not be a negotiation.
	Yeah.
	It would be, we have power over you, and here's our justification.
	Mm-hmm.
	Right.
	So when I set limits in my interactions with someone, I would imagine that creates a great deal of anxiety because that would have provoked a lot of authoritarianism, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And so I'm doing something that for you as a child would have been very dangerous, right?
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	I mean, just so you know where I'm coming from, like, my mom would tell me all kinds of things as a kid that I really, really, really would pay good money to have never heard.
	In fact, I paid good money to have that shit scrubbed out of my head in terms of its emotional impact, right?
	And I could never control her verbal diarrhea, logarrhea, right?
	Just endless verbal...
	Garbage, scary, insane, adult, dysfunctional crap coming out of her mouth, right?
	Yeah.
	And so for me, in terms of setting limits, it's impossible because my mom would be telling me all of this intense, creepy, scary, weird stuff and literally go on for hours.
	I mean, she's in the bath once talking and talking.
	I went to the mall, played a couple of video games, got a pop, came back like 45 minutes later.
	Still going, right?
	Still going.
	Didn't even notice, right?
	And so there was no possibility of setting limits.
	I mean, you can't set limits with crazy people.
	I'm not calling your parents crazy, but I'm just saying with that kind of intent, and certainly the religious stuff is, to my mind, of course, pretty crazy, but you can't set limits with that.
	Because the only weapon that crazy has is intimidation against children, right?
	Yeah.
	And so when you're with irrational people, boundaries are dangerous because boundaries escalate aggression, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And so when I am being – establishing boundaries and saying I'm not going to interact with someone, like when I was debating Aaron – what's his name?
	Stormcloud's gathering and he called me a liar with no evidence.
	I'm like, okay, well, we're done.
	I'm going to talk to you, right?
	And way back in the day when I had a debate with – oh, maybe I can remember his name, the guy who interviews all the politicians.
	Jan Helfeld.
	I mean, he advocated the use of violence against me.
	I mean, through statism, right?
	I'm not going to have another debate.
	We called in on a Sunday show.
	I'm like, no, I'm sorry.
	I'm not going to have another debate with you because I'm not going to pretend that you didn't advocate the use of violence against me through your adherence to statism, right?
	And that is important.
	And this is because, look, now I've set limits with my family.
	Do you think internet people are a problem?
	No, my God.
	I mean, the difficulty was trying to set limits with my family, finding out I could not set limits with my family.
	You know, if every time someone comes over, they shit on your rug, you keep asking them not to shit on your rug and they keep coming over and shitting on your rug.
	At some point, you just got to say, you know what, I'm tired of cleaning my rug.
	Right?
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	So it is very...
	When you see somebody establishing boundaries, I would imagine unconsciously, that arouses your fight-or-flight mechanism, right?
	It's like, uh-oh, here comes a big, big problem.
	Yeah.
	Is there anything you want to add to that?
	Um.
	I.
	I don't think so.
	That's pretty spot on.
	And I do just want to leave the situation when that occurs.
	Sure, because there's no win, right?
	Either the crazy runs you over or you end up in an escalating fight, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And it also probably has emotional immediacy because you may need to have these conversations about boundaries with your parents, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I just...
	I don't know.
	I still haven't...
	I still haven't told them about my feelings about church and religion and things, so...
	And what are your feelings about church and religion?
	Well, I mean, I'm an atheist now, but I come from a Mormon family, and so that's...
	Religion is pretty much your lifestyle there.
	Well, it's more than a lifestyle, right?
	Oh yeah, it's a way of...
	I mean, it's the whole thing.
	It's everything.
	It's even bigger than life because it's what your life is for and it eclipses your life because it's eternity that you're aiming for, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, so I just don't...
	I guess I'm scared of the reality that if I did...
	If I did tell them about these things, then...
	I would...
	Because I've heard so many other stories of...
	Ex-Mormons who have completely lost...
	And probably other religions, too, who have completely lost all...
	Ties with their family, and...
	I guess I'm just...
	Too scared to...
	To take that risk, I don't...
	Yeah, that's...
	And I'm incredibly sorry that that's even a choice in your life.
	I mean, I'm incredibly sorry that you grew up in Mormonism.
	I'm no expert, but from the little that I've read about it, it's pretty intense.
	Yeah, masturbation is self-abuse, no...
	Like, technically right now, I'm supposed to be on a two-year mission for the church, and 10% of all my income is supposed to go to the organization, and...
	Yeah, there's a lot of...
	There's a lot of stuff that's just awful.
	Well, and if I were to say to people...
	I'm going to come and have people break your kneecaps unless you give me 10% of your income.
	That would be organized crime, right?
	That would be completely illegal.
	But if you say to children, give me 10% of your income or invisible demons will burn you in hell forever after you die, that's an even worse threat than coming over to break your kneecaps, right?
	Yeah.
	And I guess technically it isn't...
	I guess it's just a little theological difference, but there aren't really any demons or things like that.
	But they do say that if you are, if you don't, I mean, if you're unrighteous and you don't repent, you won't be able to see your family ever again and You'll be with murderers and adulterers and...
	Yeah, okay.
	So maybe you're giving me a distinction without a difference here, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	That sounds pretty bad, doesn't it?
	Yeah, yeah, it is.
	Let's just say it's maximum security rapey prison rather than hell itself.
	I mean, that's still pretty bad, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I don't know why I pointed that out.
	Can you be a Mormon and not pay the 10%?
	I mean, you could go to all the meetings, but you wouldn't be able to go to their temples or...
	And if you can't go to the temple, that means you can't marry in the temple, which means you're not available.
	You can't have the highest degree of glory, what they say.
	So it would...
	I mean, I don't know how much you could lie about it.
	I'm pretty sure your bishop has access to all of your Records somehow.
	I'm not sure exactly, but no, you can't really.
	But it's expected, right, if you're in the faith, to pay 10%.
	Gosh, can you imagine?
	If every listener paid 10% of their income to this show, what we could do?
	I'm not saying anybody should.
	I'm just saying they've got a pretty fucking sweet deal.
	Anyway, but yeah, and social pressure, there's another fellow in here who's an ex-Mormon.
	And social pressure is intense.
	And basically, you know, they're kind of holding your family hostage, right?
	Yeah, yeah, it's pretty ridiculous.
	And I'm sorry that that's even a choice in your life.
	I'm sorry that that's even an issue in your life.
	I'm sorry that that's anywhere in your life.
	It is wretched.
	It is...
	And you sound like a young guy.
	And I'm sorry that this is a sad, sad choice.
	A sad, sad situation to be in.
	But I will say this, you don't have to say anything.
	Sorry, what was that?
	You don't have to say anything to your parents.
	You can, you can't, right?
	I mean, from my perspective, right, it's not like, well, if you listen to the show, you have to confront all the crazy people in your life with every piece there.
	You don't, right?
	You have to know.
	That you're choosing not to do it.
	Obviously, self-knowledge and awareness is everything.
	I don't aim at action.
	I just aim at relentless self-knowledge, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	It's just...
	I mean, I'm still...
	I mean, I'm M18, but I'm still...
	I mean, I've kind of lied to my parents saying that I will go on a mission after my year in school ends.
	And I feel like if I... I mean, they're paying for my stay here at college and...
	Yeah.
	Sorry, if you're in college already, how long until you finish your degree?
	It would be another two years.
	I've got two years, basically, of generals covered.
	It would just be two more years for my bachelor's, so...
	I don't know how long I can...
	Sorry, the two years of mission is just like going to Africa to convert the heathen or whatever?
	I mean, what is the...
	They'll...
	You submit your papers into the system and then they just determine through the spirit where you're supposed to go and then you pay three...
	I think it's...
	I think it's $400 a month to them to cover it.
	So you pay to go do volunteer work for the church?
	Yeah.
	I mean, that seems kind of nutty to me.
	Normally, if you do volunteer work, you're not getting paid, but you normally don't have to pay, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	They're supposed to...
	Because some areas are obviously cheaper to cover costs than others, so they're supposed to average it all out.
	No, but what I mean is you're doing work that's beneficial to the church, right?
	Yeah.
	And you're paying and not getting paid to do work that's beneficial to the church.
	Yeah, and two years of life.
	You ever gone for a job interview where they say, here's how much we're going to charge you to work here?
	No, that would be ridiculous.
	That would be insane!
	Are you kidding me?
	The strippers pay me for a lap dance?
	Really?
	Right.
	So, I mean...
	That's kind of nutty.
	Now, I've got to imagine...
	I mean, Mormonism is pretty big in the States, right?
	Lots of sales for magic underwear.
	Yeah, and I'm in Utah, so that magnifies you more.
	Now, I would imagine there have to be organizations of people who have dealt with what you're dealing with.
	I mean, that's important, right?
	Yeah, I've...
	There's people on Reddit who I've come in contact with and things like that, and...
	So I know it's out there.
	It might be worth contacting – there was a guy here in the chat room that you – he's also ex-Mormon.
	It might be worth chatting with some people.
	This is such a horrendously difficult issue.
	I mean obviously it's very long, complex and involved, especially because you're so young.
	So I would refer you to people who've got real experience with this who can – I mean I don't know enough about the ideology.
	To know what the response would be, I can imagine it's going to be pretty extreme.
	I mean, religion makes things so extreme.
	You know, this one goes up to 11, right?
	It makes everything so extreme because it's about eternity and hellfire, damnation, your soul, the greatest good, devils.
	I mean, it's all hysterical.
	You know, have you ever met these people who are like, It's the worst thing ever.
	It's the best thing ever, right?
	And religion, whatever it does, a lot of human conflicts are about different flavors of ice cream.
	And a lot of human conflicts, though, when you start to mix in things like eternal damnation and salvation and Jesus died for your sins, it's all so hysterical.
	And I mean that in a very fundamental way.
	It's so extreme.
	And when things become extreme, they become non-negotiable, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	You can't negotiate on salvation versus damnation, right?
	It kills negotiation to have religion.
	Like, statism kills negotiation, too, because it's like, do it or go to jail, right?
	And religion kills negotiation because it's do it or go to hell, right?
	Yeah.
	And, I mean, just in my relationship with my daughter and my wife, There's almost nothing that we can't negotiate on.
	Very, very few times I will say to my daughter, I just, that can't happen, right?
	And, you know, like if she just is going to do something that I really am not comfortable with in terms of physical danger, I will say to her, I really don't want you to do that.
	That's really scary to me.
	And she'll usually listen and she's fine and I sort of try and tell her that it may not be her or whatever.
	But, you know, when she was younger, it was not negotiable for her to hold my hand when we were in a parking lot.
	You know, parking lots are like death derbies for parents of young kids, right?
	Because the car is turning and, you know, kids are way below the bonnet or the hood of the car or whatever, right?
	In terms of height.
	I mean, kids are like death magnets in general when they're young and she's just growing out of that phase now, but...
	But it was not negotiable, right?
	Like you have to, I'm sorry, you have to hold my hand in the parking lot.
	Especially when she was in the darting around phase, you know, something shiny.
	Oh, I think I saw something on the ground.
	She just, she had to.
	It was not negotiable.
	But there's been like maybe three or four things about that.
	And I explained to her why.
	And she gets it.
	It's not like I'm just imposing my will.
	And so, and it's the same thing with my wife and with my friends.
	I mean, Mike and I, we've been working together for six or seven months.
	Mike, if we come across anything that simply has to be this way is never a negotiation.
	I can't think of a single thing.
	Yeah, I mean, we negotiate.
	90% of negotiation is just negotiating with the right people, right?
	And so the problem with religion, I mean, one of the many problems is it's so hysterical.
	You know, salvation, damnation, the blood of God and touching yourself as evil.
	Oh man, it's crazy because it kills negotiation.
	You know, we negotiate about sugar and screen time on computers and tablets and we negotiate about whether to go out when it's a little cold.
	We negotiate about when to put her coat on.
	It's all negotiation.
	Because it's not heaven and hell that's hanging on the balance, right?
	It's just, you know, different levels of comfort and different preferences and so on, right?
	The great thing about the secular philosophical life is, you know, unless my daughter is saying, I want to go strangle a hobo, you know, we can negotiate.
	But when religion comes into the mix, I mean, it's – everything is just as – Massive, hysterical, insane confrontation because the stakes have become so ridiculously high that negotiation has become impossible, right?
	I mean, if you ever want to kill negotiation, keep raising the stakes.
	Raising the stakes kills negotiation.
	I'm very sorry that you're in this situation at all, but I can completely understand how me setting limits with people makes you uncomfortable.
	And I hugely sympathize with that.
	And I would definitely talk to Talk to people who've found a way to deal with these issues in more detail than I could possibly help you with.
	I'm sorry that I can't give you more utility, but I'd have to learn so much about the ideology in order to be helpful that it would be like, I could help you if I have to eat 14 pounds of goat shit, right?
	Yeah, yeah, I understand that.
	And...
	If you go to FDRURL.com forward slash chat, there's a guy, KB, who might be able to...
	I'm sure, as a friendly philosopher, he would be happy to chat with you about anything that he's found useful in these areas.
	And I'm very sorry that this is even an issue for you.
	I'm so incredibly sorry.
	Oh, thanks.
	That means a lot.
	All right.
	And do drop me a line if you can.
	Let me know.
	Let me know how it goes.
	All right?
	Okay.
	Will do.
	All right.
	Thank you for allowing me, the last caller, to get my words in.
	I appreciate that.
	And good for you for what you're doing.
	I'm sorry that it's such a difficult thing, but this is the blood and guts of how the world changes.
	So, thank you so much, everyone.
	I'd say...
	Let's end up with a couple of vagina movies.
	Now, I saw a few flowing by.
	If you're still in the chat room, I'm going to read a few from the chat history.
	And if they make a movie of the vagina monologues, it will be the vagina, vagina, vagina squared.
	Okay, Mike, you've been watching these.
	You've got them.
	Why don't you take us home with a couple of vagina movies?
	Oh, I'm proud of the one I came up with.
	Honey, I shrunk the vagina.
	I think that's...
	My penis didn't become bigger.
	I just shrunk the vagina.
	Well, you know, it's a spin cycle.
	So what are you going to do?
	All right.
	You've been watching them.
	Why don't you take us home with some vaginas?
	I've actually been working on the breastfeeding presentation.
	So I'm a little out of the vagina loop.
	Oh, you're out of it?
	All right.
	I'll see if I... Okay, so people, put your vaginas back in the chat room.
	Okay.
	Let's see what we get.
	Fried green vaginas.
	Fried green vaginas.
	That's pretty good.
	That's pretty good.
	Come on, bring them back in, people.
	Oh, the men who stare at vaginas.
	Vagina hard, too, with a vengeance.
	What's eating Gilbert vagina?
	V for vagina.
	Willy Wonka and the Vagina Factory.
	Actually, Raising Vagina.
	Nice.
	Nice.
	2001.
	The Spade's Vagina.
	Vagina spotting.
	Oh, like train spotting.
	Oh, you mean watching rather than there are spots on a vagina, which is a little less.
	James and the Giant Vagina.
	Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Vagina.
	Monty Python's flying vagina.
	Hey, they're getting back together.
	Do you know why?
	Because John Cleese just got taken for 10 million pounds on his last divorce.
	Dr.
	Strangelove, or how I learned to stop worrying and love the vagina.
	Pulp vagina.
	Nice, nice.
	Leaving less vaginas.
	It sounds like a porn band.
	Vagina of the Apes.
	Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's vagina.
	You know, the word vagina will just never feel the same to you in any way, shape, or form.
	Vagina, The Dark World.
	Steph, is there any way you can convince me to not call this show A Forest of Blowjobs?
	I think that title...
	No, I really don't think there is any way.
	What's that YouTube thumbnail going to look like?
	Oh, I don't know.
	Let me pose for it.
	Robo-Vagina.
	Star Trek, Wrath of Vagina.
	You know, this is all just self-knowledge, right?
	I mean, the movies that come to your mind are definitely how you feel about your mother.
	All right.
	Nightmare on Vagina Street.
	Paranormal vagina.
	Twelve angry vaginas.
	Hey, isn't that the guy with his aunts and uncles earlier?
	Nightmare on Vagina Street.
	No vagina for old men.
	Sounds like a rap video.
	Ha, ha, ha, ha.
	The Vagina, the Bad, and the Ugly.
	The Last Vagina.
	Right.
	The Last Vagina in the sequel called No Vagina for Old Men.
	Dude, where's my vagina?
	Sounds like the pickup artist.
	Very nice.
	Very nice.
	Faster Vagina.
	Kill, kill.
	You see, that's your mom again.
	Sorry, can't help you with that.
	Very good.
	Vagina Club.
	Oh, John Cleese's current tour is called The Last Chance to See Me Before I Die Tour.
	His last one was called The Alimony Tour because, of course, he got taken to the cleaners.
	Kill Vagina.
	Oh yeah, Kill Bill, right?
	We have Vaginas Dare.
	Cheech and Chong's up in the vagina.
	The little vagina.
	Just fabulous.
	Look at that creativity.
	It's brilliant.
	Mike, you can't give these people a preview of my Duke Nukem breastfeeding video, can you?
	Well, actually, I might be able to.
	Hold on one second.
	How to train your vagina.
	So, yeah, we did this video on breastfeeding and then we were just fighting around with my Duke Nukem voice.
	And the vagina before Christmas.
	Oh god.
	Hey, if there's vagina, it's already Christmas.
	Anatomy of a vagina.
	Alright, I got it queued up.
	The auto quality is not going to be particularly great, but you want to do a quick intro of it stuff?
	No, this is just me doing a breastfeeding slide as Duke Nukem.
	Alright, here we go.
	Functions and benefits.
	Nutrition is the primary function of breast milk.
	However, because a newborn has no natural immunities of its own, you need to encircle it with high-octane machine gun fire, landmines, and nunchucks.
	The mother's breast milk provides not only the essential nutrients, but a way for the mother to pass on her already developed, and I mean well-developed, immunities to her baby.
	I'm not gonna do this paragraph.
	Immunoglobulin blood.
	A woman's breast milk is specifically tailored to her baby, like a hand-gripped M16, custom tailor-made to your own pulse that phony fires when you get an erection.
	Her body responds to the viruses and bacteria that she is exposed to.
	Speaking of exposing you to something, no, I'm not gonna do that either.
	In turn, her body creates secretory IgA that's specific to those pathogens, like dum-dums with your picture on it.
	That protection is then passed onto her baby through vomiting into its mouth.
	Sorry.
	Breastfeeding.
	LGA. Fuck.
	IGA. Forms a protective layer on the mucous membranes in the baby's intestines, nose and throat.
	Protecting the baby against invading germs.
	But remember, not bayonets.
	This is Duke Nukem saying, breastfeed your babies.
	or I will.
	Yeah, you'll put the real audio in for that, right?
	It's a little hard to hear.
	All right, everyone.
	It is now the next day since we began the show.
	So I'm going to hang up and go and rejoin the real world with the flesh people and have yourself a wonderful, wonderful night.
	Thanks, everyone, for calling.
	Seriously, fantastic calls, as always.
	Best listeners in the known universe.
	And I will speak to you all Sunday morning.

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