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Nov. 11, 2013 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:29:06

2527 Commitment Kills Procrastination - Monday Call In Show November 11th, 2013

The consequences of speaking out against totalitarianism in North Korea, punished for helping dying people, talking anarchy to statists professors, commitment kills procrastination and concerns about losing connection to a sibling.

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	Good evening, everybody.
	It is the 11th of the 11th, 2013.
	Happy...
	Remembrance Day.
	If only we could really remember what the wars were all about, then I think it would be great.
	I think that the ultimate goal of Remembrance Day should be to forget wars in the same way that we've now forgotten polio and the bubonic plague and all that kind of stuff.
	And forget...
	This endless cycle of violence that we seem to be obsessed with as a species.
	So that is my hope for the future.
	I'm not doing a Remembrance Day show today because I've done like three or four before.
	I don't think I have anything particularly more to add.
	But I wanted to mention that my novel, Revolutions, which is about the curing of violence in the heart And mind of a bloodthirsty revolutionary named Sergei Nechayev, who's actually sort of a real historical figure.
	Dostoevsky wrote about him in The Possessed and I took my own swing at the character, how one turns from violence to peace and how one turns from revolution to love.
	That is a very powerful novel, I think, that I wrote.
	It was originally published in the past and the rights have since reverted to me.
	It's now available for free!
	Well, when I say for free, For those who donate at the gold level, which is 20 bucks a month or more.
	Don't think of it as 20 bucks a month.
	Think of it as 80 cents a day.
	Just think of it that your couch is randomly disgorging its spare change towards really the hub of philosophy in the world today, which would be this show.
	So if you'd like to sign up, FDRURL.com forward slash donate, 20 bucks a month, and you get the PDF of And I guess at the gold level, too, you get the audiobook of my comedy novel, The God of Atheists, which is, if you've ever worked anywhere near the IT field, will ring all kinds of true to you, I think, and which was called by a review of The Great Canadian Novel.
	I hope that you will avail yourselves of that.
	Thank you so much, Mike, for setting up the show in the last minute.
	We have so many people booked to chat on this show that we are now stretching.
	Welcome to my show!
	Welcome to my show!
	And how are they turning?
	And how are the coals?
	Are they hickory smoked?
	That's my particular preference for listeners.
	And a nice blueberry sauce today.
	We have candied apples in their mouth.
	Also good for me.
	That's fantastic.
	So, lightly salted.
	So, who have we got?
	Did you have dinner yet, Steph?
	Is that the problem?
	I'm hungry.
	Does it show?
	All right, Zang, you're up next.
	You're on the dinner plate.
	Hello, Steph.
	I'm on right now.
	You are.
	How are you doing, man?
	I'm doing fine, thank you.
	First of all, I want to let you know that your show really means a lot.
	I am a student from China that is currently studying politics in the UK. And I'm going to say, I'm listening to your show after lectures and tutorials.
	It's part of the only real education I'm getting over here.
	So thank you very much, and you're really arming me intellectually in debates.
	You could not believe the type of reaction I get in tutorials when I name your arguments.
	People either react of shock or annoyance or hostility, but that's a good sign considering who we're talking about.
	So thank you very much.
	I appreciate that.
	I'm glad to be part of the general detox that might happen, might need to happen after you After you hear one of these lectures on politics, I'm very glad to be of help.
	And what's on your mind today?
	Okay, yeah.
	The thing I talk about today specifically is that recently, last summer, in fact, I went on a trip to North Korea.
	Originally, I was going to go to a Freedom Fest in Las Vegas, but at the end, I decided because of the cost, it's about the same as going to a DPRK. I went to actual North Korea, Pyongyang.
	So it was like a really scary and like it was a unique experience.
	But yeah, and it just like proved everything you said in like the most extreme form possible because you could see the propaganda.
	Like they told us to like the state schools in which they have these smiling robotic children, et cetera, et cetera.
	But well, here's the thing I'm having right now.
	Recently, I talked to a friend that I know who is also a libertarian.
	He's in the UK, but he's from the US, about my experience.
	And he contacted his friend who is the editor of a libertarian magazine.
	The editor contacted me, and he wants to publish my experience in the DPRK. But the problem is, before I headed into the country, the travel company that I went into had me sign a non-disclosure waiver.
	A waiver that is backed by the UK courts saying that I cannot publish any journalistic piece about my experience.
	And plus, they didn't threaten us, but they implied that even if we do it in a way that they can't trace back to us, if they could figure out which group we went in with, They're going to be the North Koreans that we came in contact with when we're in the country, such as the tour guides, government minders, et cetera, et cetera.
	And part of me just figured that maybe I shouldn't publish my experience because I'm, number one, putting myself at a bit of risk.
	That's why I'm using a pseudonym today on the show.
	And number two, I'm putting the North Koreans that came in contact with at risk.
	But on the other hand, it's like a unique experience for me to put my fuel out to the world.
	Plus, I feel like a bit of a hypocrite if I just deal to authority.
	In my opinion, not this attempt at saying free speech.
	I just say, okay, I won't publish it basically because I don't hate, but I feel like a hypocrite in itself.
	So what do you think I should do?
	Should I publish this or should I just let it go?
	Because it's not going to make a difference.
	Writing an article in a libertarian magazine is not going to change the regime.
	What are your thoughts on this?
	Yeah, I think that – I mean I'd like to read it but I think we kind of already know what life looks like in a totalitarian regime.
	I mean so many people have written about it already and I'm thinking of like Wild Swans and Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich and the Gulag Apikalago.
	I mean so many people have written about it and I think that the threat of retaliations – Against the people who were hosts in North Korea is significant.
	There is a Canadian reporter, her name is Jan Wong, and she was I think a socialist or communist when she was younger and she went to China.
	She's written a book about this called Red China Blues and she was in China and some people spoke to her critically about the regime and she turned those people in.
	She mentioned this to the authorities or to the person in charge of her tour and those people ended up in a concentration camp and that's pretty terrible.
	She actually, I mean, she had a terrible time with a fairly scumbaggery rag of a newspaper in Canada called The Globe and Mail when she ended up criticizing some stuff in Quebec and was jerked around for years trying to get them to do any kind of decent thing to stand up and support her and so on.
	She just had a terrible time of it.
	But she did end up going back to China and meeting the people whose Because she revealed their critical thoughts about the regime, they ended up at a concentration camp.
	It's just not a thing you want on your conscience.
	They are prisoners in their country and so I would not – if I were in your shoes, I would not publish.
	It won't do anything to change the regime but it sure as hell will probably get some people in some serious trouble.
	I mean if you've ever seen I saw a documentary, I think it was, on North Korea where the parents are just terrified because children have innocent questions.
	They have curious questions.
	And the parents, they're all just completely terrified of what the children might say about the regime or to foreigners.
	Well, it's just in general, it's just shocked that, you know, I've been to quite a lot of countries, and one of the more friendly professors I know here in university, like, he specializes in researching Cuba, but I have never seen, like, any country in which you have to sign a non-disclosure waiver before you enter.
	It's like, they're already showing their best face during the trip, but this is still what they're doing.
	On the social waiver and they give us this talk about like, oh, don't write anything about it.
	Make sure you're not jealous.
	It's just like – part of me is like I used to wonder whether or not the people running the country sincerely believe in what they're doing.
	But after this experience, I guess they really don't.
	They really know what they're doing is wrong if they're putting up all these barriers.
	It certainly does seem to be the case that people who are evil are desperately insecure.
	And they cannot take any kind of criticism.
	It's one of the fundamental things about evil that they simply – evil is a form of self-humiliation as well as the degradation of others.
	And evil people simply cannot handle any kind of provocation or any kind of criticism.
	You know, like it's the old thing.
	You look at someone funny who is evil and they'll just completely blow up.
	You know, this obsession with street gangs, with juice or respect.
	You know, this obsession with respect.
	You've got to be respected.
	Parents do it too sometimes.
	Respect your mother, respect your father.
	This obsession with respect and with the positive reactions of other people.
	And controlling and being terrified of negative reactions or criticism is a fundamental component of evil.
	It's one of the reasons why evil people are so volatile is that you may be thinking about a time you stubbed your toe while gazing absently at someone in a bar and they interpret that as evil.
	You're thinking critically of them or you're disrespecting them or whatever it is.
	And then suddenly you're in just some other planet of ugly violence.
	So it's not too shocking that all of this stuff is occurring.
	This massive desire, yeah.
	If you've never seen it before, it's pretty terrifying.
	I brought back some magazines and news articles from North Korea, and some of them were in Chinese.
	I showed it to some of my family friends.
	They are in the older generation, and they were really disturbed from it because they said back in China, when China was in the Cultural Revolution, that's what they grew up with.
	This is the stuff they read.
	They just replaced Korea with China, and that's what it was.
	And they're really disturbed by it, thinking that just a few decades ago, this was what they're studying in school.
	And they were like, that's close from their children studying the exact same thing.
	And yeah, it is just – I still find it ironic that I went there as a Freedom Fest, but yeah, I guess maybe that helped me more in a way because I could actually see how it's like on the other side.
	Well, what's ironic, of course, is that if you go to Vegas, Freedom Fest is in Vegas.
	If you go to Vegas, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, though you don't actually sign a contract before you go.
	Whereas in North Korea, what happens in North Korea stays in North Korea because you sign a contract and they've got hostages.
	Yeah, I appreciate the sensitivity of the question, but if you did sign the contract and you know that the consequences of you speaking out about your experiences will be likely retaliations against helpless victims of the state, I think...
	I think silence is the best approach and you can keep those memories.
	At some point in the future, should it become free or a freer country, you may be able to.
	There's nothing wrong with writing them down for now and then you may be able to publish them later.
	But right now, I think that the consequences would be too negative for people who trusted you because you'd signed the contract, right?
	Yeah, I understand.
	It's like on one of the tour – oh, yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	No personal experience.
	I almost got into that.
	But, yeah.
	Yeah, it's tempting.
	Yeah, it is so tempting.
	It's like I would love to contact you in private and tell you about the experience.
	You could just name them on the show or something because they are just such good examples.
	I just thought, oh, you would love to hear about them.
	Yeah.
	Oh, and there's one last thing before I go that I think you should hear about.
	In one of your previous videos, one in which you responded to, what is it called?
	One of the videos in which you respond to a piece written about questions for free market ideologues or something.
	Oh, questions for free market moralists, yeah.
	Yes, exactly.
	In that piece, you mentioned that people will help each other even without the state.
	In the comments, some statists wrote that, oh, no, in China they have this example in which they have a traffic accident and then they just let the person lie and bleed out in the streets for hours.
	I just – People need to know the real context.
	That's a true story, but the real context behind it.
	What happened was that in China, I think it was a few years ago, someone got in a car accident and the driver just speeded away.
	Another random person off the street decided to help a person that's lying on the road.
	But once he helped that person, the family, they had to pay for medical bills.
	They couldn't afford it.
	They decided to just be jerks and sue the person that helped them for causing the accidents.
	The courts actually ruled.
	This is what the judge actually ruled.
	He said that, well, the only conceivable reason why you help a stranger is because you cause it in some way.
	Otherwise, we wouldn't help anyone.
	So he was convicted of causing the harm.
	That's why it's a government causing people to now help each other.
	Even back in high school in China, I was told by my teachers, they were trying to help me.
	They're saying that if you see someone bleeding out on the streets, don't help them.
	You might get into trouble because of this court ruling.
	It's all state incentive changing people's morales.
	So I'm just shocked that people actually use it as an example against the idea of people helping each other because you need this kind of twisted incentive to take away people's sense of helping others.
	Yeah, and it was an insane ruling.
	It just shows the type of mentality that the ruling class have.
	Because maybe the judge was honest.
	He seriously cannot consider why we help a stranger off the street.
	You must have caused it somehow.
	Well, I mean I doubt very much that there was any moral reasoning.
	I'm sure that he was simply paid off or owed the family something or someone threatened him or – I mean people make up all kinds of nonsense but a lot of it has to do with perverse incentives or threats.
	But no, I mean you're absolutely right.
	Whenever you – When you hear a story like that, you just know that the government is behind it somewhere.
	I remember when I debated Sam Cedar and he brought up, oh, Cayuga, the river was on fire and blah, blah, blah.
	I don't even need to look it up anymore.
	I do, just because I want to be diligent and conscientious.
	You just know that when some massive disaster occurs like that, that the government is almost certainly behind it in one form or another.
	And when you see people – I mean it's funny.
	They say – I say basically in a state of freedom, people help each other and then they say – people say, well, what about in China?
	It's like these people are not in a state of freedom.
	And they live in a completely bizarre society that is totalitarian and still has vestiges of totalitarianism all over the place.
	I mean, this is not a society that is philosophically committed to liberty.
	They just realize that having free-range livestock is more profitable for the tax farmers.
	So, I mean, they kind of don't even need to look it up.
	Like, every time you hear about the problem of the commons, you know that it's the government that is preventing ownership of something, and that's why it's being exploited.
	And the government is managing it or licensing it or something like that.
	So it does kind of get boring and repetitive to keep going through, not with you, but going through the same sort of thing.
	But once people get how predictable it is, then they'll be a little bit more skeptical and will look up the state interference with these kinds of things first.
	Yeah, it's like today, it's like just today in one of my lectures.
	Oh, capitalism is like this garbage ideology because it's never been practiced.
	But I just raised my hand at the middle of lecture when there was a Q&A session and I pointed out, you know, there's all these state interference, like thanks to your video, I could actually let them all out and say, how is this a free market?
	He said, yeah, it's not a free market because the free cannot be practiced.
	I said, well, no, I disagree with that, but then you just blame this all on a free market, but you just say, admit it, that this is a state interference.
	So how is this a free market?
	He just moved on.
	Well, you see, that's a perfect logical trap, right?
	I mean, that's just delicious, right?
	I mean, because they can say that these problems are caused by the free market, and then when you point out I mean,
	they get you coming and going, as all propagandists do, right?
	Yeah, I guess it's one of the tricks.
	Just logical traps that it put you into to win.
	No matter how you say it, it's like the argument I actually got from some of my family members saying, oh, you're just a communist.
	You just think you have this ideal.
	People try to practice it.
	It didn't work.
	Therefore, this ideology cannot be practiced.
	So when I debate socialists and communists, I don't actually debate it.
	I try not to avoid it unless they force their support of the Soviet Union or the Khmer Rouge.
	I should debate them under philosophical grounds, under funding documents.
	The philosophers, etc.
	I debated from first principles instead of individual cases, but here they don't seem to do that.
	The free market is the only – people say, well, it's impractical and it can't be used, right?
	But all the free market is is not using compulsion to affect your choices.
	And the act of debating is fundamentally in accordance with free market principles in that people who are debating rather than using force are not using coercion to affect their wishes, right?
	They are negotiating.
	They are attempting to change people's minds through reason, through evidence, through the force of their arguments or the clarity of their analogies or whatever, right?
	And so what's really important for people to understand is that it doesn't make any sense to say the free market is an abstract concept.
	It's an idealized form of human interaction that has never been practiced in human life, right?
	Because when you break it down to what they're really saying...
	What they're really saying is that I'm going to make a rational argument as to how human beings can never make rational arguments.
	They're saying, I am going to not use force in the attempt to convince you that human beings must always use force.
	I am going to negotiate with you to establish the reality that human beings cannot negotiate.
	The free market and its emphasis on self-ownership, owning the effects of your actions and non-coercion is a direct mirror of every debate you will ever have where someone doesn't have a knife to your throat, which of course when that happens is no longer a debate.
	And so this is the strange thing about ideology, that people think that it is somehow convincing to make the case That human beings must always use compulsion but make that case in a peaceful manner.
	It is exactly the same as saying language is incomprehensible and meaningless and using language to communicate that idea.
	This is how strange things are and this is why when people understand everything that is embedded in the very act of making an argument, they have no choice but to accept A free market, self-ownership, property rights, and non-coercion, the non-aggression principle.
	Because those things are directly manifested in the very act of debating.
	You know, 95% of moral philosophy is saying to people, stop!
	See what you're doing right now?
	That's what I'm talking about.
	Just look in the mirror.
	See and understand what you are doing right now.
	And understand that if I attempted to get a law passed that made you agree with me, you would say that would be wrong.
	If I attempted to use force to get you to pretend to agree with me, you understand that that would be wrong.
	The free market is directly mirrored in the very act of debating and therefore you cannot use any form of debate to argue against the free market.
	Because you are then using the principles of non-aggression to argue against the principles of non-aggression.
	You are using the principles of self-ownership and owning the effects of your actions, i.e.
	your arguments, In order to argue against self-ownership and owning the effects of your actions.
	If only people could stop, slow down, look in the mirror.
	And I think that would answer almost all moral questions that they come across.
	But people don't do that.
	They think that somehow there is these principles called negotiation and self-ownership and peace that apply.
	To something other than what they're doing.
	You create a rule and you exempt yourself.
	That's the basis of all corrupt power.
	And it's the way that people argue all the time.
	So I just think it's funny.
	So what you're saying is that the very act of having a debate is impossible.
	The very act of us debating is impossible.
	And it would be infinitely better if instead of having a debate...
	We paid the government to enforce our wills on each other.
	That would be the ideal.
	That's how things should be done.
	But that never would be accepted in a debate.
	So why would we accept it in the market of goods rather than the marketplace of ideas?
	I think it's like people just draw all these ugly conditions of capitalism.
	Just today, one of my fellow students, he said he did a presentation on a class about what the difference between socialism and capitalism.
	What he did is he took two pieces of cake.
	In socialism, he shared with everyone.
	For capitalism, when he just smashed the other kick of his fist and said, this is capitalism.
	This is sustainable and destroyed the environment, so no one gets any kick.
	Yeah, the tutor really liked it, but I just thought, no, don't you own that piece of kick?
	Then you choose to give it out.
	Then you choose to smash it.
	Like, exactly which part of this is capitalism?
	Which part of this is socialism?
	It's just theatrics.
	Well, I mean… I mean that's such a nonsensical argument on so many levels because the fundamental question is not – no, the fundamental question is not what do you do with the cake.
	The fundamental question is why is there a cake?
	There weren't a lot of cakes in stores in the Soviet Union because central planning doesn't work, because there's no free trade.
	And there's no efficiency and there's no customer sensitivity.
	So there were no cakes in the stores.
	I mean, you had to line up for three hours just to get a loaf of bread if you were lucky.
	So people always say, well, what do we do with the pie?
	We got this pie.
	How do we divide the pie?
	But for most of human history, there was no pie.
	The pie came into existence with the free market.
	The only reason you have a pie is because of the free market.
	Go to North Korea and see how many pies there are in the stores.
	Don't answer that question because then they'll do something horrible to some locals.
	The question is not what do we do with the pie.
	The question is why is there a pie in some cultures and why is there not a pie in others?
	Why do some economic systems produce pies and some economic systems do not produce pies?
	But this idea that there are just these goods that magically manifest and now what are we going to do with it?
	I mean that's literally – you know what it's like?
	It's like me – Going up to some lottery winner who's walking out with $100,000 in cash and me sticking a gun in his ribs and say, well, now we've got to divide these winnings because they just happen to magically appear and so on.
	Or some guy who's just made a lot of money on the stock market in some legitimate manner.
	Well, now we've got to divide up these winnings.
	Well, if you go and steal people's winnings, the stock market stops working because nobody wants to invest.
	The only reason there are those winnings is because they're not being divided up by force.
	The only reason there is a pie is because some asshole is not sitting there saying, how are we going to divide this pie up for everyone?
	That's the only reason there is a pie in the first place.
	But everyone takes that creation for granted.
	Like there are just these machines or robots called doctors.
	And it doesn't matter how many guns and regulations and bureaucrats and debt you point at them.
	They will just continue to function no matter what.
	I mean this is a fundamentally abusive conception of a relationship like my wife will love me if I scream at her and my kids will respect me even if I spank them and so on, right?
	I mean it's just taking things that only voluntarism produces as just magical givens that voluntarism has nothing to do with.
	Yeah, it's like this argument I had with one of my tutors about, like, he said that, oh, we must regulate the economy because otherwise we run out of fossil fuels.
	And I just point out, and he said, big corporations have an incentive to suppress renewable energies.
	I just use the example of the digital camera.
	Kodak has suppressed digital cameras.
	What happens?
	They go under because all companies eventually invest in it.
	It's a little bit too long.
	And I just ask him, you know, let's use a digital camera example.
	If government invested in it, what makes you think they won't just take Bialow Kodak or suppress digital cameras themselves?
	What makes you think they're going to invest in the right type of energy?
	And yeah, that's not even getting into how it's being funded.
	But he just said, oh, no, it's not fast enough.
	You're just taking a chance.
	It's saying, oh, yeah, because just forcing people to pay for your favorite program is not taking a chance.
	I didn't say this out loud, but that's what I was thinking.
	Well, the other thing, too.
	of course, is that why are fossil fuels...
	Important to begin with.
	Why do we even care about running out of fossil fuels?
	Because of the free market.
	You know, like in the 19th century, before the invention of the internal combustion engine, when people found oil, it was like a complete waste product.
	They hated it.
	It's like, oh man, we hit a gusher.
	That's terrible.
	That means we can't plant sawgrass here or whatever the hell they would plant down there, right?
	The only reason that we even care about fossil fuels is because...
	We actually have a free market, right?
	I mean they didn't care that much about coal in the dark ages and they sure as hell didn't care about oil in the middle ages.
	I mean other than it was a nuisance that they had to get rid of.
	So the only reason we care about running out of fossil fuels is because of the free market and, of course, the amount of money that – the amount of money and resources that the governments waste every year the amount of money that – the amount of money and resources that the
	But, of course, people have this magical void wherein they flush all difficult questions and they can claim to be smart because like a magician, they can wave their wand and make all of these questions disappear through rank stupidity and ignorance.
	The government is to economics and society as God is to physics and biology.
	It's just this magical garbage dump that you can throw all of these difficult questions and just say, well, God made us.
	The government will save us.
	The government will do us.
	Oh, there's a problem with the comet.
	The government will – right?
	I mean it's just – it's a – Magical, dangerous, sorcerous non-answer that eats humanity in its wake.
	And I just – I mean I really have nothing but contempt.
	For people who create imaginary problems and then just say governments will solve it with no further thought.
	I understand that they're propagandized and this and that and the other.
	But still, what bothers me most about these kinds of people is read some fucking opposition.
	It won't kill you.
	Just read some opposition and come up – yeah, just read.
	Look, the one thing that I love about libertarians is they know the opposition.
	They know the opposition because that's – The entire system they were raised in.
	If you grow up in a Catholic family, you go to church five times a week, you get Catholicism, whatever flavor is in there.
	And then if you become an atheist, it's not because you've never heard of Catholicism.
	You know the other argument.
	Well, we all went to these statist prison camps called government schools, and we all know.
	We read the media, or it's inflicted upon us that we were propagandized into it.
	If we did any higher education, we're facing the same wall of ignorant shit that you're facing.
	We know the opposition.
	I can argue a status position in my sleep.
	And the problem I have is that the people who are the status, it's like, you know, rub a little Mises into your corns.
	I mean, you know, read a little Rothbard.
	It won't kill you.
	You know, read a little Hayek.
	It's shocking.
	Some of the states I talked to, when I pointed out, I don't actually support the government of Bell's big corporations.
	They were completely shocked.
	They think, oh, yeah, you're a capitalist.
	Therefore, you must support Bell's big corporations and all these state-run industries, and you support the trade tariffs.
	You're in bed of all these big CEOs, and this is what they really think you are.
	You're like a Bond villain, basically.
	Yeah, and I would just ask people and say, well, which free market literature have you read?
	If you are critical of the free market, that's fine.
	Be critical of the free market.
	That's fine.
	I don't like who that person is marrying.
	That's what being critical of the free market is.
	I don't like the color that that guy painted the inside of his living room.
	I mean, that's what critical – because all you're doing is criticizing people's uncoerced choices, right?
	I don't like that brand of beer that that guy is ordering.
	And that's bad and that's – I mean you put it in that context and people are just like unbearable busybodies.
	That's all they are.
	But it's like it takes – I don't know.
	I didn't time it.
	But maybe three or four hours to go through Henry Hazlitt's economics in one lesson.
	It's a libertarian classic.
	And you can plow through it in a couple of hours.
	So, you know, all the people who were like, oh, the free market, you know, the free market stole my lizard and stepped on my cat and then shed in my turtle bowl.
	Just read it in an eye pencil.
	You know, just pick up a couple of libertarian classics.
	Free to choose.
	Anything.
	Capitalism.
	The unknown ideal.
	Just pick up a couple of these books and educate yourself a tiny, tiny little bit about that which you're bigoted.
	And if people haven't done that, then, I mean, it's embarrassing.
	It's literally like having somebody who's the head of black studies, of African-American studies at a university, who's lily white, and you say, well, do you have any black friends?
	He says, no, I've never actually met a black person, but let me tell you all about the black experience.
	I mean, this is bad comedy.
	It's like this experience I have.
	I have this professor that gave a lecture about, like, oh, these are the questions that libertarians can never answer.
	At the end of the lecture, I walk up to him and show his hands and say, hi, my name is X. I'm one of your students.
	I'm actually a libertarian.
	Can I just take five minutes of your time right now and just, like, I can answer those questions?
	Or if you're busy, can I go to your office at the time of your convenience and talk about this?
	He just refused to even look at me and said, and I asked him, like, sir, can you hear me?
	He just said, no, I don't have time for people like you.
	Then this year, he just continued to teach the same thing about No libertarian could ever answer these questions even though one just walked up to him and asked politely, can I just answer these questions?
	Or at least if I can tell them to you and you can just tell me why I'm wrong.
	He refused to even acknowledge me for a few minutes.
	He just refused to look at me and just pick up his books.
	It's unbelievable.
	If a socialist walks up to me and I talk to them all the time, just to horn my own arguments in.
	I would just say, nope.
	And the year after year, you teach the same thing.
	Oh, Libertarian, she never did these.
	Milton Friedman, he really likes it.
	He supports their dealerships and they're all crazy.
	And it's like, oh, Ayn Rand just dismissed her.
	She's crazy.
	She hates people.
	And it's like all these drama.
	And this is what we'll have to write in the essays and stuff.
	It's like sometimes I wonder, why did I come to the UK? It's just really the same land that produced Adam Smith.
	Well, you probably heard that it was free, mistakenly, right?
	Yeah, I mean, in many ways, the statist academics are worse than KKK members.
	And the reason I say that is that statist academics definitely get people killed.
	Definitely get people killed.
	Statism kills.
	And I'm not just talking the obvious and extreme forms of democide, which are like a quarter of a billion people in the last century alone.
	But statism genuinely gets...
	People killed.
	So they're participating in that, except not directly.
	The people who support socialized medicine get people killed.
	The people who support government schools through bullying and suicides and shootings and so on get people killed.
	The people who support gun control get people killed.
	The people who support the government military, they get people killed.
	People who support governments running prison systems and law courts and so on get people killed and get people raped.
	There is a direct causality.
	They are causing the deaths, rapes, maimings and murders, physical and mental, of hundreds of millions of people around the world.
	Statism is a soul, mind and body shredding cheese grater forever running up and down the diminishing cheek of mankind.
	And these people are directly – but not with the honesty of an open lynching, but with this sort of slimy, sleazy, behind-the-scenes, Iago-style whispering into the black state Othello eardrum.
	So they're that.
	But the other thing about the people in the KKK – The people in the KKK, they actually lived among blacks.
	And in many places, they were outnumbered by blacks.
	Blacks were all around them.
	Now, they hated the blacks, but at least they knew blacks.
	At least they were around blacks.
	I mean, these guys have hatred, prejudice, and bigotry, and general cowardly brain shittery all over libertarianism, and they don't even know any.
	They've probably never met any, or if they do met people, they just turn away.
	I mean...
	In many ways, it certainly has a higher death count than the KKK. And at least the KKK knew some black people.
	Obviously didn't like them, but at least they knew them.
	And so, yeah, this state of shit is really stomach-turning.
	I once went to Cambodia, and I remember seeing the Damas graves.
	And some of them, you can still pick up bones on the foot.
	They have a sign that says, if you pick up any bones, like bone fragments, please put it in this box.
	Those are like millions there.
	I think it's like one-fourth of the country killed in Cambodia.
	And where did Pol Pot learn?
	He learned it in France, and he's left as professors in the universities.
	It's like, that's why it is.
	It's always like when my parents ask me, why do you bother discussing this?
	I just say, well...
	When I'm looking at my university class, I see all these students from, like, EU member states that are currently having failed economies.
	That could be a 2.0.
	If I just speak out, and even if I just feel kind of convincing, but just makes it, yeah, maybe this guy has some points, just a little bit.
	I'd like to think that, you know, maybe, just maybe, That potential person out there would think about, okay, maybe I won't do this.
	Maybe if it comes in some opposition, at least it will be on their mind.
	But Cambodia and North Korea, those are really life-changing experiences for me when I see them and see the results.
	Philosophy is not harmless.
	When we do philosophy and debate, it's literally about saving lives in a lot of ways.
	Oh, no question.
	I mean if you look at – just look at all of the British socialists who went to India and helped them set up the Raj – sorry, helped them set up Nero and his gang after the partition in 1949.
	I mean there was like – Two generations of economic stagnation, two generations of corruption, two generations of premature death for millions and millions of Indians because they gave them socialism instead of freedom.
	And people, they don't see it.
	There's something so fundamentally narcissistic, if not sociopathic, about statism in that it's like they just don't even process that there are victims to what they say and to what they do and to what they want.
	Or maybe statist is just another way of rearranging the word sadist.
	And they like the suffering and they like that they get kicks out of it.
	I mean, there's lots of people.
	You put them under...
	Brain scans and you show them pictures of people intentionally harming other people and they get these little happy, joy, joy, giggle, orgasmic responses.
	They love it, these people and I think that there are a lot of them in this kind of category because it's like they don't even think that there may be victims or if they do, maybe that helps get them off.
	I don't know.
	But it's monstrous and you can't really doubt it anymore that there's enough information to see.
	I mean stuff is just so fundamentally not working in these socialist policies.
	I mean you can't miss that now.
	It's like here in the – when I first arrived in the UK, I had a total infection.
	I tried to call the H&A to see how it's like.
	They give me – they tell me to call back in two weeks.
	Then I can arrange an appointment.
	At the end, I self-medicate.
	I just use a pocket knife to treat my own injuries.
	But – and it worked.
	It actually worked.
	I figured, oh, this is developed country?
	Two weeks to get an appointment?
	It's not even an actual – For an infection, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, for an infection.
	I just took care of it myself because it was a total infection.
	It was painful, but it was not life-threatening.
	But I just thought, this is ridiculous.
	When I talk to UK students who are domestic, they're used to this.
	For me, it's like, well, in China, there's some private clinics that are outrageously expensive, but at least you could get it right away.
	At least even the public ones, you don't wait for two weeks to get it.
	At least in the cities where I'm from, you don't wait two weeks to get it.
	Another phone call in which you can make an appointment in which you probably have to wait another week.
	By that time, you probably healed yourself already.
	Then they charge you if they want to.
	Or you're dead.
	Yeah, or you're dead.
	Probably dead.
	I just don't understand.
	People still support the system when they just point out this and say, oh, you're a horrible person.
	Yeah, accusing the only Chinese guy in the entire department for being a racist.
	You don't take into other races.
	You're like this Western ethnocentric person.
	It's unbelievable.
	It's like, seriously?
	I'm like the only Asian guy in this entire room and you're Western ethnocentric.
	It's amazing.
	Yeah, this woman, I just looked it up because it's a book worth reading.
	Very, very important to read.
	It's called Out of the Blue, about her experiences with the mainstream media, who she was involved in for many years and so on.
	But when she was in China, she had a problem with her ear.
	And the Chinese doctors caught it and fixed it because she was able to pay out of pocket.
	And then she checked when she got back home, and there was like months waiting lists for an ear specialist kind of thing.
	And there's no doubt she would have lost her hearing had she remained in Canada, but because she could actually pay out of pocket.
	Now, you'd think this would give someone pause, and I don't know if she has or she hasn't.
	She doesn't mention anything in the book.
	But, you know, these are the kinds of tragedies that occur all the time.
	In the state and in the status systems.
	These catastrophes for individuals that don't add up to anything statistically worthwhile.
	At a global level, though, each individual one is catastrophic for the person.
	But yeah, she just probably comes back.
	She's probably still on the left or a socialist even though it was having some access to the free market that saved her life.
	As it was the case that having access...
	To American healthcare probably saved my life because I was able to go and get a cancerous tumor cut out of my neck without having the months-long wait that I was looking for in Canada where the cancer could have spread anywhere else in my body.
	That was a very powerful lesson in the truth of what I've been talking about for 30 years.
	Yeah.
	Hopefully I'll take up much of your time because you already answered my question.
	And once again, thank you very much.
	And I just – I hope someone out there – there's also universities listening to this and they will just understand.
	It's like another libertarian.
	But it's just like thank you very much again and please continue on your wonderful work.
	I'll let someone else on.
	Thank you.
	Thank you very much.
	Thank you very much.
	Very much.
	Look, I mean, libertarians, I've found for the most part, are people who just really want to solve problems and don't assume they have a solution.
	Don't assume that they have a solution.
	And that's… It's like atheists and gods.
	It's like, oh, what is the universe?
	I don't know.
	I just think you're a proof of crap.
	Yeah.
	I don't know what the answer is as to where the universe came from, but I know it's not Charlton Heston riding a white cloud.
	I know that the Judeo-Christian God is not the answer.
	I don't know what the answer is.
	I don't think anyone exactly knows right now.
	But having the honesty to say, I don't know, as Peter Boghossian points out, In his excellent book, Emmanuel for Creating Atheists, go check it out.
	Go buy it.
	But it's just having the humility to say, I don't know, and having the ego strength to not pretend to know things you don't know.
	And I don't know.
	I was explaining this to my daughter, and she's trying to understand the zeitgeist robot cities, and I'm trying to explain them as best I can.
	And I'm sort of pointing out to her, I said, how much should people pay for a hotel room?
	And she said, I don't know.
	It depends.
	I said, yes, exactly.
	It depends.
	I don't know how much people should pay for a hotel room.
	You couldn't get Howard Hughes to pay for a hotel room because he was like a crazy-ass agoraphobic who didn't want to leave wherever he was living because he was a germaphobe and stuff.
	You couldn't get him to pay for a hotel room.
	Some people are in debt and they shouldn't be paying for anything more than a Super 8.
	They'll still stay on the top floor of the Ritz-Carlton.
	I don't know how much people should pay for a hotel room.
	I do know that nobody should force people to pay some amount of money or force people to stay in some hotel room.
	I don't know how much people should pay for a hotel room.
	I'm not even sure how much I should pay for a hotel room because I'm indecisive about that kind of stuff.
	I should be cheap.
	Well, you know, I'm not broke and all that kind of stuff.
	So it's just this humility.
	I don't know how healthcare should be provided.
	I do know that forcing people to do it isn't good.
	I don't know who everyone should marry, but I do know that rape is wrong.
	And it's that humility that is important.
	And unfortunately, I'm just not raised with the healthy ego strength to accept that it is not a mark of idiocy to not know things that you don't know and admit that, and particularly things that are not knowable.
	It is actually a basic mark of intelligence, wisdom and fundamental integrity to say, I don't know the unknowable.
	And I certainly don't know the unknown.
	I have a methodology that might help, but I don't know the unknown.
	But there's this thing where people feel that to admit that they don't know something is bad.
	It is to be mocked.
	It is to be ridiculed.
	It is to be humiliated.
	But to not know what you don't know It's essential to having a wise and mature.
	This is what Socrates says.
	I don't know anything.
	Oracle of Delphi says, well, that makes you the smartest guy.
	And he finally gets it because he doesn't really know much.
	And therefore, that's the beginning of wisdom, is to call things by their proper names, as Confucius says.
	And one of those things which we need to call by its proper name is ignorance about what could be known but is not known yet and particular acceptance of that which can never be known.
	And there's no goddamn person, even God himself, cannot tell what everybody should pay for a hotel room because that is so circumstantial.
	You book yourself at the Super 8, you win the lottery, suddenly you're going to the Ritz-Carlton.
	Who knows how much you should pay?
	That is up to everybody to decide for themselves.
	So thank you so much for calling in a Great chat.
	Keep fighting the good fight.
	Okay, yeah, and you keep giving us the ammunition, pass the ammo, and people like me out there will just keep on the fight.
	Thank you very much.
	Praise the haslet.
	Yeah, praise the haslet and pass the ammo.
	All right, who's next?
	All right, Sven, you're next.
	Go ahead.
	G'day, Steph.
	It's an honor to finally talk with you.
	Is my audio okay?
	You are not starting...
	Yeah, wait.
	You can't do that.
	You can't start a conversation with me with the name of Sven and start with an Australian g'day.
	I can.
	That's just screwing all my stereotypes up.
	Yeah, I know, right?
	Yeah, I've been here since I was four years old.
	I moved over from East Germany.
	So, yeah.
	Wow.
	That was 1985.
	All right.
	What's on your mind, Sven?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, so I have delicious little butterflies in my belly.
	It should be good practice for my first ever public speaking adventure tomorrow night.
	I've been listening...
	Oh, you posted on the board about this today, is that right?
	I did.
	I was up till 4am writing that because I can never do things until it's the last minute.
	That's been my general strategy for getting things done since high school, but yeah.
	Nice.
	So yeah, I've been listening to FDR since pretty much close to the beginning before Izzy was born and you were still on the software exec gig.
	I'm also proud to say I've been a subscriber since the beginning of the year and I encourage everyone else listening to please donate to the show and help spread this vital message.
	So just thanks for everything that you do.
	It's awesome.
	I appreciate that.
	And of course, anything you can do to bring philosophy to Australia, it's like bringing flashlights to pygmies in the jungle.
	No, I'm kidding.
	I've got some great Australian listeners, but I just thought I'd pump a few stereotypes there, a bunch of ex-criminals.
	But go ahead.
	For sure, for sure.
	So that's not what I want to talk about, though I'd like you to talk a bit about public speaking maybe afterwards.
	But my main question is, well, my partner and I have started our first business together, and now we're growing and transitioning, and sort of changes are looming, and yeah, just feeling...
	...naunted to the place, and I've been distracting myself, so I'm sorry this is another one of the procrastinating...
	So maybe all those feelings are totally appropriate, but I don't know.
	It's frustrating because I'm not throwing myself into this to the end that I know I could.
	I also feel some resistance just bringing this up.
	I feel like I'm needing to ask for help with this at all, but it's just a matter of just doing it, a willpower thing.
	I found out like I've recently just destroyed my fingernails again for my anxiety, I've been doing it a lot of my life, but I thought I'd sort of got an over, so it's just a little part of that.
	Sorry, let me make sure I understand.
	The tough part of this show is to know when to stop talking, and that's for me too.
	You have started this business, but you have a problem feeling unmotivated or procrastinating, and you said, even for the public speaking, that you have An issue with doing things at the last minute and all that kind of stuff, is that right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Now, did your partners know this about you before they decided to strap themselves to your mast, so to speak?
	Yeah, well, when I say partner, she's, I don't like to use the word girlfriend, but it's not like we're married, but she's the love of my life.
	We've been together for pretty much two years now, so she definitely knows who I am.
	She started a business with you, but she knew this about you, right?
	Not before that.
	Is she there?
	Yeah, I'm here.
	Hi, Steph.
	Oh, good.
	Can I talk to you?
	Yeah, definitely.
	Hi, what's your name?
	Svetlana or something equally non-Australian?
	Yeah, almost.
	I know it's a French name.
	Okay, okay.
	So why do you think that your partner, your boyfriend has these issues of procrastination and panic?
	That's a good question.
	It's pretty much why we call you because it's just not motivated.
	It doesn't have that vision that I have myself for the business.
	Pretty much when it started, I found the old thing and I had to drive him into that business.
	I had to ask him to do stuff and sometimes I had to cry to make him understand that it was very important that we should do it.
	We've been starting selling our products.
	It's been just a huge revelation for him.
	And he was like, oh my God, that's awesome.
	And he just got motivated.
	You know, I think it was just scale of, are we doing that?
	Are we giving all our money and stuff?
	And maybe it's not going to work at all.
	So now that it's working, it's totally 100% with me.
	But the premise, again, now we want to go to the next step and be growing and go Australia-wide with our products.
	And the same thing is happening again, that it's freaking out and just not, you know...
	Just not with me.
	I hate to interrupt you, but would that be a no?
	Sorry?
	Would that be a no?
	Do you remember the question that I asked?
	Do you know why I'm doing this?
	Well...
	Because he's very much into self-knowledge.
	He's been talking with his parents and stuff.
	I know that he's been a bit traumatized by his parents, maybe fighting a lot when they had a business.
	Maybe he doesn't want that to happen for us.
	He's got very little self-confidence as well.
	So he's not like telling himself, I can do it.
	We're going to be doing that together.
	That's not answering the question.
	So you don't know, you don't have a theory as to why, other than that his parents fought, which is kind of nonspecific, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And Sven, do you have a theory as to why you're this way?
	I've got lots of theories.
	That's almost the problem.
	Feel free to whittle them down to the top, say, one.
	It just feels like a general laziness thing.
	I don't know.
	It's more fun to distract myself.
	That's not a theory.
	I'm sorry.
	My theory about tides is the water moves back and forth.
	It's like, well, you just said tides in a different way, right?
	Yeah, sure.
	The thing about my parents sort of rings true.
	I did feel they were fighting a lot and didn't have a lot of time.
	Yeah, I mean, I recently had a big conversation with them and trying to uncover all this stuff because I don't really have memories from my childhood, not solid ones.
	It just feels like a story that connects back to it.
	Right.
	Were there anything specific in your parents' behaviors or was there anything specific in your parents' behaviors To do with procrastination, right?
	So you say they had a business themselves, right?
	Yeah, they ran a business for 17 years and before that they owned a little sandwich bar when we first came to Australia.
	So yeah, they've always done their business.
	Yeah, I think in Australia you can open any business you like as long as it has the word bar in it somewhere.
	But did your parents – did either of them procrastinate?
	I wouldn't say so.
	They really had the East German work ethic.
	When we came over in 1985, that was before the wall came down, and they really came over here with just two suitcases full of clothes, and that's pretty much it.
	So they started from zero, and Dad worked so hard to just keep us afloat.
	Yes, I think I have more of the Australian work ethic, which is to say not really, like none at all.
	So, yeah.
	Okay, so why do you think that you don't have this work ethic?
	Is it that you don't take pleasure in what it is that you're doing?
	Are you a hard worker?
	Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's funny to say that.
	Like, I am a hard worker.
	I don't mind working, but it's more around, like, When I get comfortable with the situation, I can just smash out the work, but anytime there's a big change looming, like at the moment we're thinking about getting our own factory space, it's like all the numbers that we're doing just pop a zero on the end and it's like another order of magnitude.
	So there's that fear around just committing all this money.
	It's the same thing that happened at the beginning of the business.
	We invested just pretty much every cent we had and We purchased the labels for our product and that was $3,000 or something and there was so much anxiety around that moment.
	I get comfortable with the situation I'm in and then when there's a change looming, When my partner and I first met, we went on holiday for six months around Europe.
	And even before that, I mean, I was comfortable in Australia, but then I'm about to go to Europe on this awesome holiday.
	And I was freaking out just because of the change about that, even though it was a really awesome thing to be doing.
	So, yeah, I feel like it's more around just being comfortable in the situation.
	And then when the change is coming, it just freaks me out, I guess.
	Wow.
	I mean, the reason I'm saying wow is you're describing something completely different.
	That's not procrastination, right?
	That's change anxiety or something, right?
	Right, but it feels like it's procrastination because instead of doing stuff, I distract and will just listen to hours of FDR or muck around on Facebook or just YouTube or whatever.
	So, yeah, I mean, I do realize it's hard to define.
	It's hard for me to put into words exactly what this is.
	I mean, that's part of what this call is to get some clarity on it and some objectivity, I guess.
	Were your parents happy with their career choices and with each other?
	Well, I mean, when they came over to Australia, it wasn't so much a choice.
	It was like when they got this little sandwich bar and they were – we live in a tourist town here and they were working seven days just brutally.
	So, I mean, my dad definitely had just major regrets.
	He had a house in East Berlin that he donated quotation marks to the church to come over here, and he always had regrets for many years.
	And, you know, in this conversation I just had recently with my parents, he said he was depressed for those For five or six years here in Australia.
	And I actually asked him, how do you know you were depressed?
	And what was that behaviorally like?
	And he couldn't really answer it.
	So I sort of wondered if he was still depressed about that.
	And I know he still holds on to it.
	He should have stayed in East Berlin.
	And the house, when the wall came down three years later, would have been worth millions.
	And he would have had it made.
	But instead, he came to the other side of the world and had to start from zero.
	And he was like nothing.
	And both my parents had...
	My dad was an electrical engineer.
	We really went to zero when he came to Australia.
	After six or seven years of building themselves up, they got a business more in line with what they did with electronics and stuff.
	They're very successful now.
	They own their house and they own the factory and stuff.
	Mad respects to them for doing what they did.
	Yeah, it's a bit of a torrent of words here.
	I'm trying to sort of pick out what might be the most useful thing to talk about.
	Did your father – yeah, no, that's fine.
	Did your father feel like he owned his decisions, that they were not imposed?
	Because one of the things that happens with procrastination is we make a decision, like we're going to do X. And then what happens is we kind of lose the thread of that decision and then X, whatever it is, kind of ends up feeling imposed upon us, if that makes any sense?
	Sure.
	And so when you say, I'm going to do X, does it ever sort of feel like X has been imposed upon you and you just – you don't really feel like doing it because you're kind of being made to do it or someone else is making you do it?
	Well… Our reasons for starting this business are so clear to me.
	We're doing it basically so we can start a family.
	It's our foundation for a family.
	I was a fire-spinning hippie traveler dude before this.
	It's a massive transition for me to now be an entrepreneur.
	How does starting a business fit with having a family?
	Well, like I said, I was a traveling hippie and there's not a lot of money in that, so we want to build a foundation now.
	No, but there's a huge amount of work in being an entrepreneur, right?
	Absolutely.
	Just what she is.
	So how does that fit with being a father?
	Well, I need to create a foundation so I can actually financially be set up to have a family.
	So this job is we want to We have set up some residual income so we can take the time off when we start our family.
	Okay.
	When are you planning on doing that?
	Well, as soon as possible, I guess.
	If in the next couple or few years, the business is sort of on its feet and maybe even In a year, we might be more comfortable and don't have to work quite as hard.
	I'm 32 now, and I guess my partner as well, the biological clock is ticking, so it's definitely in our minds.
	Right.
	And so you're aiming to gain some sort of self-replicating income or residual income so that you don't have to work for every dollar you get, like an hourly thing, right?
	Okay.
	That makes sense.
	And...
	How much did you see your father when you were a kid, when you were growing up?
	Well, we always lived together, absolutely.
	It was just the general nine to five thing with him.
	He was always a workaholic as a kid.
	We used to always say that.
	He used to say that about himself.
	I mean, this is the challenge for me because, like I said, I don't really have, I don't feel I have memories of my childhood so much.
	So, I mean, he was definitely around.
	So, he definitely wasn't absent.
	I know, that doesn't really answer the question.
	Okay, but he was, but yes, this is such a mishmash, right?
	So, when he was, if he was a workaholic, how many hours do you think he was working a week?
	Maybe 50 and then he was always in the garage fixing stuff and still working at home because he did all the electronic repairs in the garage at home.
	So that's more work then, right?
	Yeah, yep.
	Okay, so help me out a little here.
	Let's make this sail a little more smoothly, okay?
	So how many hours did your father work a week?
	Well, let's say I'd get 60.
	Okay, so he would do 40 at work and then 20 more at home.
	Yeah, maybe that's a bit high, but sure.
	And did he then do things like take care of the lawn and do the garbage and like the general outdoorsy stuff or outside the house that a lot of guys end up doing?
	Well, we always moved around a lot, and they would buy an older house and renovate it.
	This was all part of their work ethic, I guess.
	They were trying to build a foundation, I guess, for their kids, my sister and I. Okay, so would your father work on those projects?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	He did the tiling and the concrete.
	Is that included in the 60 hours?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I guess maybe 60 or 70 then even.
	I'd have to ask specifically about that.
	Well, because he's got a 40-hour work week, right?
	And then he's got 20 hours doing electronic stuff.
	And then he's also fixing up houses, right?
	Right.
	So that's a lot of work, right?
	Yeah, like I said, he was a workaholic.
	I mean, I don't know if he was addicted to it, but that's what they needed to do.
	I guess I shouldn't say needed, but...
	Now, but why is this – I mean I start with – I mean I'm not trying to pick on you or anything.
	I'm genuinely curious.
	Like I say how much – you say my father was a workaholic.
	I say how much.
	He said maybe 50 hours a week, right?
	Oh, and then a bit of this and a bit of that and then you tell me more.
	Why do I have to piece together 70 hours a week, right?
	I mean you're 32 years old.
	Do you not know?
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	Like I said, I don't have solid memories of my childhood so much.
	Yeah, you said that a couple of times.
	I'm not sure what that means.
	I mean, I don't know what a solid memory is.
	Is that like a memory you walk into and then have to rub your nose?
	I don't know what a solid memory is.
	Fair point.
	Well, I can remember last week and I can actually picture what I was doing and where I was and what I did.
	But I feel like with my childhood up until like my late teenage years or early teenage years, I guess it's just a story that I reconnect with.
	I don't have like the pictures when I Remember, should that make sense?
	No, it does.
	And what was your relationship?
	Your relationship with your father was, I mean, obviously kind of distant if he's workaholic, right?
	Yeah, and I feel like he's always had trouble expressing his emotions.
	So yeah, definitely, I think it was distant.
	Well...
	To be honest, you're just saying workaholic a different kind of way when you say he has trouble expressing his emotions, right?
	Workaholics do that because they have trouble expressing their emotions, right?
	They need to feel competent, but unfortunately, the exercise they're not expressing their emotions, muscles, and never exercise they're expressing their emotions, it gets worse, right?
	Okay, and what about your mom?
	Well, mom, they always worked together.
	She was...
	She was sort of the one that had to run the household because, I don't know, she had this image of her always having to nag to get us to do stuff.
	Like your girlfriend is.
	Yeah, exactly.
	We've talked about that.
	I'm sure there's no pattern there that's worth examining.
	We're examining it.
	That's absolutely right.
	So your mom had to nag your dad or just you?
	Well, like everyone.
	When we had this conversation last week, like four hours, talking to my parents, and she said to get everyone up in the morning, and the kids had to go to school, and everyone had to go to work, and she had to just sort of, maybe not every day, but sort of yell and just push and get everyone sort of motivated to get going.
	So, yeah.
	And how were you disciplined, if you were disciplined as a child?
	I was definitely hit on some occasions, and I'm trying to get an exact number on this.
	I remember my dad just being angry a lot.
	And yeah, but again, with the memories, it's hard to say.
	I remember just sort of being scared of Dad a lot.
	But I mean, my parents let me do what I wanted pretty much.
	And I know it's sort of contradictory, but yeah.
	What?
	My mom nagged me.
	I was frightened of my dad, but my parents let me do whatever I wanted.
	Hmm.
	Riddle me this, Batman.
	No, and I mean this with sympathy.
	I get what you're saying about it's very scattered, right?
	Yeah.
	Like, it's a narrative, and because it's a narrative, you can kind of make up...
	I don't mean make up like you're lying, but stuff seems plausible in the moment because there's not a lot of reality in the history, right?
	Well, I have to make it up because I don't have those memories.
	And I... I'm going back to my parents and asking them, tell me exactly where I was this year.
	I've gone right back to when I was a baby.
	My mom's got my photo albums as a child ready for me to look through.
	Let me ask you some more basic questions then.
	Please do.
	Do you have any memories or many memories of your mom and dad rolling around Playing with you on the carpet or having fun or play wrestling or playing Pictionary or Candyland or Crazy Eights or stuff like that.
	Right.
	Just maybe dad plays with me or sometimes in the pool in summer.
	But I've got more memories of the nagging and just sort of general...
	Fear around my dad, so yeah, not so much.
	Okay, so is it fair to say that, like, what's the ratio?
	And again, I know it's tough, right?
	But you said a couple of times in the summer in the pool with my dad.
	What about with your mom?
	Did she sort of get down on the ground and play with you as a kid?
	God, I wish I could say.
	We have a great relationship now.
	We can talk about everything, so I can definitely ask more specific questions about stuff like that.
	I just feel they didn't have the time.
	They were always working.
	Okay.
	I'll tell you a few thoughts that I've had.
	As you know, I'm no therapist or anything, but this is sort of some thoughts that I have about this, and you can see if they make any sense.
	The world when we're kids is people.
	It's not even so much stuff.
	I mean, it is stuff if we don't have a close relationship with people, but mostly our relationship is with people, right?
	Because we have a relationship with that which allows us to survive, right?
	So like the hunter-gatherer has a strong relationship with whatever he's hunting.
	And the farmer has a strong relationship with the weather and the crops and the birds that might eat his seeds and stuff like that.
	And for kids, survival is all about your relationships.
	And memories, when you're a kid, have a lot to do with relationships.
	Now, if your parents were not connected with you a lot, and this happens, you know, quite a lot, like I think I read a stat the other day, like one in four babies, like one in three babies in daycare, but one in four babies shows what's called an insecure attachment, which means not really connected with usually the mom, right, with the mother.
	Now, if you didn't have this kind of connection, let me ask you, were you in daycare when you were a little?
	Yeah, definitely.
	I had memory.
	Some memories of being dropped off at daycare.
	And school holiday care and a bit of after-school care as well.
	Okay, so you had, quote, relationships with minimum wage caregivers...
	In a Lord of the Flies box with lots of other children, right?
	Presumably, yes.
	Well, I mean, that's what daycare kind of is, right?
	Yeah, I know that.
	It's more like whether my memories are accurate, but yeah, absolutely.
	Well, I mean, there's some facts.
	I mean, if your mom was a stay-at-home mom, you'd remember that, right?
	Yeah, which she definitely wasn't.
	Okay, so your attachments were with a variety of people.
	Like, I never attached to a caregiver as a child.
	I didn't.
	I couldn't attach to my mom.
	And I was put in one daycare, then I was put in a home daycare, then I was put in another home daycare, and then for some reason I stayed with my aunt when I was in kindergarten.
	I still don't even know why, but I vividly remember it.
	I don't remember any of the teachers from these places.
	I was just a whole bunch of different caregivers.
	Why?
	Because, well, for a variety of reasons, but because...
	My mom was a single mom, which means that there's this giant sucking sound as resources get pulled in to try and manage kids so that the mom can go to work or whatever, right?
	And so you just kind of hand it off from place to place and you don't have any connection and you don't have any constancy and you don't develop all the nuances about relationships and what people think and how they think and really get to intimately know someone, right?
	I mean my daughter can imitate me to a T and she can make very funny jokes about my personality quirks because, you know, I've been a stay-at-home dad for almost five years so we know each other really well.
	I know, you know, from across the house if she's upset.
	I know when she's happy.
	I know why she's happy.
	I know how to make her happy and all that, right?
	So, I mean, we talk a lot about thinking, and I think she's very good at thinking, very, very instinctual, but she comes to really good conclusions.
	And I just said to her tonight, I said, you know, wow, Isabella, you are a really good thinker.
	I'm glad you keep working at that.
	She knew what a big compliment that was from me.
	It just jumped into my arms, you know, thank you, Daddy, kind of thing, right?
	And then she gave me a...
	A wet raspberry fart kiss on the cheek because that's how you show affection when you're four.
	Anyway, and 47 sometimes for me.
	So, I mean, we know each other really, really well.
	I mean, I wanted to provide that for her.
	I mean, to me, I don't really understand why the fuck people have children and then hand them over to strangers to raise.
	That's a mystery to me.
	If you didn't have much of a connection with your parents and you were put into these daycares and these rotating phalanx of who knows who trying to take care of you, then you don't develop that relaxed, deep and knowledgeable intimacy with someone.
	And your memories are scattered because your memories are about relationships and your relationships are scattered.
	I'm not saying this is true.
	I'm just saying does that make any sense?
	Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely.
	You sound skeptical, which is fine.
	I just want to make sure I understand.
	That's sort of where my thinking about it has gone to as well.
	Like I said, the whole reason why I'm doing this business is so that I don't have to repeat.
	Wait a minute.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	You say this is where your thinking has gotten to yourself, like what I said?
	Yeah, pretty much.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	But I didn't say it at the start.
	Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
	If I can ask a question, close then.
	So when I asked you, what, 40 minutes ago, if you had any theories or thoughts as to why you might be this way, you kind of didn't mention any of this, right?
	And now when I mention it, you say, yes, that's kind of what my thinking has been.
	Okay, yep.
	I'm not trying to pick on you.
	I'm just pointing out that I feel like I've gone a lot of work to drive around the world and end up standing right next to you again, if that makes any sense.
	Yeah, and then it's a bit of a pattern with callers calling in, and so it happens a lot, I guess.
	No, and everyone who listens is like, oh man, if I call this show, I'm totally not going to do that, right?
	Absolutely, so did I. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I definitely don't want to waste your time, but yeah.
	I mean, it's just frustrating, I guess.
	Sorry, what's frustrating?
	Thinking I know the reasons for things, but it's like self-knowledge is the great cure.
	And even though I sort of had this knowledge and I've brought it up with my parents as well.
	It doesn't just instantly cure the problem.
	No, it does not.
	No.
	No, it does not.
	So it's self-knowledge plus something.
	When did you start to develop a really great relationship with your parents?
	Would it have been like...
	A few years ago in my late twenties, and definitely since I met my beautiful partner, so like two years ago.
	I guess just really gained my independence and started doing my own thing.
	I definitely moved out of the house early, but I came back for a few years.
	Now that I have distance from them, they're so supportive in what we're doing with the business and helping out however they can.
	We do absolutely talk about everything.
	There's no topic that's off the table.
	I can talk with them about everything.
	They've apologized to me for hitting me and for not being around.
	They always tried to make us eat meat and stuff at the table, and we never really liked it.
	I've since apologized.
	I got circumcised when I was two, and my mum's apologized for that.
	So they definitely are okay with the reconciliation, I guess.
	And that's what I thought it was.
	Get the self-knowledge and then, you know, like if dysfunction is the avoidance of legitimate suffering, I'm expressing my suffering and dissatisfaction about the childhood.
	No, I'm sorry.
	I don't understand when you say that you have not expressed any suffering at this call.
	Not even a bit.
	You were circumcised.
	You were kind of abandoned.
	Your dad was a workaholic.
	I mean, why the fuck have children and then go and fart around in the garage rather than spending time with them?
	I'm sorry to be blunt, right?
	But I don't hear any suffering.
	I'm not saying you've got to suffer for my benefit or anything like that.
	But I don't You've not expressed any negative emotions or what are called negative emotions or any discomfort at all in the conversation.
	Well, I guess I'm trying to lay out the facts of it and would it be useful for me to be crying and lamenting my childhood here on the show?
	No.
	Look, you brought up that dysfunction is the avoidance of legitimate suffering, right?
	Right.
	I mean don't talk to me about what's useful or not.
	I think truth and honesty is useful and I'm not saying you've been dishonest.
	I'm not trying to say that at all.
	Do you feel that you have things to mourn about with regards to your childhood?
	Yeah, I do.
	And what are those things specifically?
	Well, that my parents didn't have time for me and were always working and I didn't feel I had a strong connection with my dad because he couldn't express himself emotionally.
	He would always just...
	Okay, you've just...
	My God, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I've got to be more efficient with this call.
	You have just excused them about four times in three breaths.
	My parents didn't have time for me.
	Bullshit.
	Total bullshit.
	Of course they had time for you.
	My father couldn't express his emotions.
	Not true.
	He chose not to.
	He chose not to.
	Yeah.
	So if this is the mindset that you're in, then you are avoiding legitimate suffering, which is that the suffering and alienation, loneliness and isolation and lack of attachment that I suspect was characteristic of your childhood was not the result of the fact that your parents moved from one country to another.
	It was not the result of the fact that the moon was in the seventh heaven and Jupiter was in its ascension or anything like that.
	It was the result of specific choices.
	That your parents made.
	Now, with all sympathy with the fact that your parents grew up in a communist dictatorship in East Germany, and it was a pretty shitty childhood for them, I imagine.
	But there was suffering.
	Why were you circumcised?
	It's what the doctors told you to do.
	You do what the doctors tell you in East Germany, I guess.
	It was the same.
	They told her to get off...
	Stop breastfeeding at three months and she had her uterus taken out a few years later just because that's what the doctor said.
	You trust the doctors in that sort of environment, I guess.
	Yeah, this is all pre-internet and all that kind of stuff, so that's harder to get better information.
	But two is unusual.
	Why not at birth?
	Yeah, I did ask for the specifics of that, and they sort of told me what the actual process was like, and I asked if my behavior changed and stuff, but I'm not completely clear on the reasons.
	It was basically just, you know, like, that's the doctors.
	Oh, well, actually, it was because she couldn't pull the foreskin back enough.
	It was too attached, so she was freaking out.
	Yeah, you're not supposed to pull the goddamn foreskin back.
	It's supposed to be adhered, right?
	Anyway, I'm no doctor, but you're not supposed to pull the foreskin back.
	I remember that from my prenatal class, like from when I... I don't know.
	No, but I mean, back then, as a two-year-old, you're not supposed to pull the foreskin back from a two-year-old.
	Anyway.
	All right.
	So, I think that...
	I think that you are still a little unclear...
	On what it means to really connect with someone.
	And I say this partly because I have had a very great challenge trying to connect with you in this conversation.
	And I don't mean this in any critical or negative way, in any way, shape or form.
	I think you're being wonderfully honest and courageous and all kinds of good stuff in the conversation.
	But I think that – sorry, go ahead.
	I mean I think I have an amazing connection with Oscar.
	Sorry.
	Go on.
	An amazing connection with your partner?
	Yeah.
	Can I talk to her for a sec?
	She's right here.
	Thank you.
	Sorry for tracking you in.
	So the way that Sven was talking with me, as you could see, it was kind of bewildering and sometimes contradictory, which is again not critical or anything like that.
	this is not the case when he's talking with you? - I think it's the way that he has to talk.
	There's a lot of details coming back and forth.
	But no, I think we always like...
	We're always communicating our feelings and he's really true and honest about his feelings with me.
	Because I don't always understand all the words that he can say.
	He's always repeating it and making it very clearly for me.
	So he was different with me in this conversation than he is with you?
	Yeah, I think he's a bit nervous with you more than he's with me.
	Definitely.
	Sure, sure.
	Okay.
	And did you notice during the time that we were having the conversation that he was different with me than he is with you?
	Well, a bit nervous, yeah, but he's always doing a short story a bit long with a lot of details.
	I'm sorry, can you say that again?
	He's always doing what?
	He's always making a short story a bit longer than it could be.
	I'm a rambler, Steph.
	Uh-huh.
	Yeah, rambling is fine as long as it's consistent.
	We've got time at home to talk about that, so even if it's a bit too long, I just, you know...
	We always end telling me what he wants to tell me, and I end understanding what I need to understand.
	Right.
	So, not to pick on you, but it seems to me that you're doing kind of the same thing that Sven does.
	Which is you're answering a question, which is kind of like a yes-no question with a narrative that's kind of confusing.
	Okay.
	And if you have that habit, which Sven also has, and you understand, it makes sense that you would both have the same habit, then you may both not fully get what it means to be really connected.
	And not to spend too much time, but was your childhood quite different from Sven's was your childhood...
	More connected with consistent caregivers and so on?
	My childhood?
	Yes.
	Yeah, well...
	Yeah, I think I've been in kids' care and stuff as well.
	I remember more playing with my parents and...
	I remember them being more at home.
	The teachers, they were basically at home.
	When I was at home, from 5 o'clock at night and every weekend, we were always together.
	They never put me in a holiday centre.
	The two months of the school holidays, we were always travelling together.
	I think I had more time with my parents, even if my dad and my mum were quite bad in telling their emotions and their feelings.
	I'm sorry, could you just say that last bit again?
	I just couldn't quite understand what you said.
	I said basically that I spent more time with my parents than Sven did.
	Like all the school holidays and weekends, we were all together.
	But my mum and my dad, they were quite bad at communicating feelings and emotions.
	And I had to work a lot on myself to be able to do that with Sven, as he did.
	And it's a work that we are doing together, you know.
	And in what way were your parents, sorry to interrupt, but in what way were your parents not good at communicating their feelings?
	Sorry?
	In what way were your parents not good at communicating their feelings?
	I've never seen my mum cry at all.
	It's something I've realised lately.
	Like, a lot of Hypocrisy.
	Hypocrisy, I think.
	Like, everything is good.
	We're all happy and blah, blah, blah.
	But I never had her telling me in front that something was bad or that she was feeling sad or whatever.
	I've never seen her crying.
	And I think my dad was pretty much not looking and never crying either, of course.
	Yeah.
	Sorry, your dad was pretty much not what?
	Not talking.
	Not talking much.
	It was giving and sharing a lot of knowledge because they were both teachers and so it was always a lot of new things learned and stuff.
	But yeah, nothing about emotions, definitely.
	Right.
	And has that changed at all as time has gone on or has it remained mostly the same?
	No, I think it's been even worse because when I was 17, I just left my parents' house and went to different universities.
	And I've been there for six years.
	I'm 28 now.
	I've been there for six years traveling around the world and seeing them a week or two every week.
	Yeah, or something like that.
	And we have some Skype sometimes.
	It's a very superficial kind of conversation just to tell them I'm alive and, you know, nothing else.
	And I really advise when I see him connecting with his parents and being able to tell them what he feels and all the truth about his childhood.
	I wish I could do the same.
	And you're going to tell me I can't do this.
	No, no, I'm not going to say you can.
	I mean, you know, if people don't listen, then there's not much point talking.
	I mean, you could try, but if they, you know, if they won't listen, that's not a, you can't make other people listen to you, right, in any relationship.
	So, I'm very sorry about that.
	I'm incredibly sorry that you have Skype conversations, what, every month or two or three with your parents to let them know that you're alive.
	Yeah, it's a bit more often than that, but it's really not pleasant as they're pretty much fighting on the other side of the screen, and I just don't want that.
	Oh, your parents are fighting with each other?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Oh, I'm sorry to hear that too.
	I'm sorry to hear that too.
	Okay, so I'll just give you a couple of final thoughts, and I'm sorry that we couldn't get to anything truly stupendous, but I sort of have to mull it over.
	I know we have your contact info as a donator, so I'll just have to mull this over, listen to this again.
	But I'll just share a couple of thoughts.
	I think that procrastination has to do with – I mean commitment obviously has a lot to do with it.
	If you're committed to something, then you just get it done.
	And if you're committed to something that is quality, then you know that getting it done sooner rather than later is important.
	I think that's...
	I don't need to tell you guys that.
	I'm sure that's pretty clear.
	And in order to know what commitment is, I would argue that we need to have...
	Received commitment from someone else.
	You know, personality and virtues and so on, I think, are a lot like language, like anything.
	You know, you can't learn Mandarin if your parents don't speak Mandarin.
	And for you, Sven, I would say that I don't think you had a strong example of seeing your parents' commitment to you.
	Yeah.
	And for – I'm sorry I didn't even ask your name.
	But for your partner, in terms of a commitment to you.
	Now, a commitment has to do with staying focused on something despite discomfort.
	That's sort of the basic level of commitment, right?
	I'm going to quit smoking even though I really want to smoke.
	I'm not going to drink even though I really want to drink, right?
	You stay committed to something despite your discomfort.
	That's sort of commitment 101.
	Now, commitment 201, right, the next level of commitment, is staying focused on something, not despite your discomfort, but because of your discomfort.
	In other words, this is a sore spot for me, so I'm going to return to it and I am going to deal with it.
	In other words, you guide yourself to some degree by that which is uncomfortable.
	It is not something that you do despite, it is something you do because of.
	You go towards the most tender spot.
	So the guy diagnosing you with appendicitis is constantly feeling around your belly until he gets to the part that makes you go, ow!
	That's how he knows or has a good suspicion as to what's going on.
	And so commitment is doing stuff that is uncomfortable, which is why I keep returning to parental choice.
	Because if you say, well, my parents were incapable of doing this or they couldn't do that or whatever, then expecting a commitment from them is unrealistic.
	You know, it's like, well, my 80-year-old grandfather was just not committed to starting an NBA career.
	Well...
	Basketball, right?
	Well, of course you couldn't.
	You can't start an MBA career when you're 80.
	It's unrealistic, right?
	Whereas there are choices that people make.
	Now, for parents who are having trouble connecting with their kid, well, you keep working on that until you can connect with your kid, right?
	You pick up self-help books.
	You see a therapist.
	You just do whatever it takes in order to connect with your kid.
	And that teaches your child something about Doing something despite the fact that it's uncomfortable and maybe even doing something because it's uncomfortable.
	That's what commitment is.
	Now, I would argue that you, Sven, in particular, saw procrastination all the time.
	Because, you know, we see workaholics and we think, wow, they're getting a lot done.
	And I don't know, maybe they are.
	I think some of it's make work, but maybe they are.
	But what's important in philosophical and, in particular, economic thinking is not looking at the visible benefits but the hidden costs.
	Yeah.
	What are they not doing?
	What did your dad procrastinate on?
	Well, he procrastinated on connection, on commitment to his children, on being a father, on being there.
	He procrastinated on a little four-letter word we could call love, right?
	In other words, the workaholism was a form of procrastination.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I was just going to say maybe this is the stupendous part that you've gotten to.
	So yeah, that's good.
	Okay, good.
	Well, we like to keep hitting the piñata until it cuffs up at least one lozenge.
	And so every moment in a family situation or anyone that you live with, Any moment where you feel alienated, where you feel disconnected, where you feel absent, where you feel...
	I'm going to have to just say disconnected again.
	Sometimes I get the fourth word, sometimes I don't.
	Every moment that you experience that, that you're not actively working to fix it, is procrastination.
	And so if we're surrounded by people who let a lack of connection go on minute after minute, hour after hour, day, month, week, year, decade after decade, we are surrounded by procrastinators and really heart and soul fatal procrastinators.
	Ah, you know, it'll work itself out.
	Oh, we'll be connected tomorrow.
	Oh, I don't even notice that we're not connected.
	But then why did you have children?
	The purpose of having children is to connect with them.
	I mean, you don't get married and then live on opposite sides of the world.
	To have children and not connect with them is cruel.
	I mean, if you're a workaholic, don't have the goddamn children.
	Hey, don't get me wrong.
	I'm glad that you're both alive, particularly you, the donator, right?
	But, I mean, you can't have children and then refuse to connect with them.
	And you can't have children who are entirely dependent upon you as a parent for connection.
	Children have no plan B for connection.
	They don't get to choose other roommates than the ones they're currently living with, right?
	They don't have any choices.
	They have no options.
	You know, if I lock a guy in my basement, I've got to give him food.
	He's got no choice in the matter.
	He's got no plan B, right?
	He's not going to grow anything down there and he's got no phone to call for takeout, right?
	So when you have a child, you have a monopoly over that child's capacity to connect.
	And I can't imagine there's any parent in the world who would ever say with a straight face that connection is not important to children.
	So it's kind of like a setup to have children and then not connect with them.
	And trust me, children's capacity and desire for connection is literally bottomless.
	Right?
	So, you know, my daughter says I'm not playing with her enough if I have to go and take a dump.
	Right?
	It's like, trust me, you don't want to play that game of me not going to the toilet and doing that, right?
	Not a fun game.
	Let's push Mr.
	Big around the carpet, right?
	For sure.
	So it's bottomless with her, right?
	So she'll sometimes say, you know, Daddy, you don't play with me enough, right?
	And I say...
	We played for four hours this morning.
	Then I had a little lunch.
	And then I did like 10 minutes of emails or whatever.
	And it's like it's the lunch and the 10 minutes of emails.
	And I sort of have to remind her, point her out or say like every time we go to a play center, who's playing with you?
	You are.
	Do you ever see any other daddies up there?
	No.
	When we go to the swimming pool, who spends two hours with you in the pool?
	You do.
	Do you see other daddies in there in the swimming pool or are they sitting there reading newspapers and playing on their iPads?
	Yeah.
	You're in the pool, right?
	And I'm not trying to sort of corner her.
	I just want to point out that, you know, she has it pretty good as far as having people to play with her.
	Yeah, and that's how I want to be with our children.
	So, yeah.
	Right.
	Right.
	But you have to process what wasn't there for you before you can provide it for your children, right?
	And, yeah, this has definitely made that more clear.
	Thank you.
	Right.
	So, I would argue that you are surrounded by procrastinators, except you can procrastinate as a parent forever, pretty much.
	Right?
	I mean, if you procrastinate as a husband, I mean, your wife just might wake up one day and just divorce your ass, right?
	If you're like, oh, don't worry, we'll connect maybe in five years.
	We'll connect on our 10th wedding anniversary for one magical night and then I'll just be off playing video games again or fixing things in the garage or whatever, right?
	Because your wife has a choice.
	She can be with you.
	She can not be with you.
	And so because your wife has a choice, procrastination on intimacy, on connection, carries with it implicit dangers, right?
	Unavoidable dangers.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, but not with kids.
	But not with kids.
	With kids, you can procrastinate from here to fucking eternity about connection.
	And what happens?
	I don't have a template for connection later in life.
	Well, no, yes, but how many kids divorce their parents?
	Sure.
	Not many.
	There's a whole book out there called Divorcing Your Parents by Beverly Slopen.
	You can pick it up and read it if you want.
	It was written 20 years ago.
	I read it 20 years ago.
	And even then she says, if you're thinking of divorcing your parents, don't tell anyone.
	They'll think you're a monster, right?
	Yeah.
	You know, because if you divorce an abusive or neglectful or avoidant husband, people say, you go girl, more power to you, right?
	Don't settle for anything but the best, right?
	And I think I'm lucky now that I can bring this stuff up with my parents.
	Yeah, I'm not suggesting anything like that, but what I'm saying is that parents do not face the threat of voluntarism in their relationships, which means that they can basically keep procrastinating in the same way that workers who can't be fired don't Get much done, right?
	So like in the SEC, the Securities and Exchange Commission, 2006-2007, a whole bunch of managers were found after some complaints were made, were found when they examined browsing history to have spent the majority of their day looking up internet pornography and some of them even made PowerPoint presentations of explicit internet pornography.
	Which, you know, obviously would explain the excessive Kerpal Tunnel Syndrome problems and disability leaves for their right hands from the management circle jerk.
	But this is what these guys were doing.
	Now, none of them lost their jobs.
	The SEC isn't even releasing their names.
	And one guy, who was one of the more egregious cubicle masturbators...
	He was suspended for 10 days and he appealed that and said that it was unfair and unjust.
	They all kept their jobs.
	And it wasn't like, hey, do you think the SEC had something to do?
	Maybe a couple of things that they needed to get done a year or two before this massive financial crash?
	Well, no, they were too busy flogging the bishop in their cubicles.
	So they can't get fired.
	So what kind of good job are they going to do?
	And the reason I'm saying all of this is that procrastination, when you experience it in the parent-child relationship, in the realm of intimacy, is unbounded by any voluntarism and therefore is perhaps the deepest procrastination of all.
	See, you leave your public speaking preparation until the last minute, but you do have to do it, right?
	In the much more important act of connecting with your children for your happiness, for their mental health, for their capacity to connect with others later in life, there is no due date.
	There is no get it done by.
	I mean, we all procrastinate on taxes, but you've got to get them in, right?
	Unless they make the ultimatum to them.
	No.
	Well, and see, I'm not – you say you have a great relationship with your parents.
	I mean I'm not going to argue that.
	I'm not talking about that you've got to sit there and have an ultimatum.
	I want you to – but what I do want you to understand is the degree to which that kind of procrastination can continue.
	Now, it seems unlikely that if you hadn't listened to the show and changed things, that things wouldn't have changed.
	Yeah, I mean, I was on a path of self-knowledge, but the show is sort of definitely accelerated that, so absolutely, yeah.
	And so I, you know, when you explain yourself to me, I find it very hard to connect with you.
	It's long, it's rambling, it's convoluted, it's contradictory, and you're not even sure that it's contradictory until it's pointed out, right?
	Right.
	And again, these aren't criticisms.
	I'm just telling you my experience.
	And my experience is not right.
	I'm just – this is my experience.
	Thank you.
	And to really connect with something or with someone and in particular with your work stuff, to really connect with it.
	To know the importance of what you're doing.
	You need to get this shit done so you can spend time with your family, so you can be the kind of parent that you didn't have, so you can break the cycle of emotional distance and neglect, right?
	That's how important it is.
	The times when I'm grumbling and don't feel like doing a show, where's my commitment?
	My commitment is I do another show, another hundred people stop hitting their kids.
	Yeah, you're connected to the good outcome.
	Right.
	Right.
	So I would argue that the lack of connection and the prevalence of infinite procrastination in the most essential realm of human connection, in the most captive audience between parents and children, has left you without much of a rudder when it comes to commitment because you hadn't any commitment modeling from your parents.
	Yeah.
	And your parents modeled procrastination in the most important realm of all.
	So it's not surprising to me that you have trouble connecting, at least with me, or at least I experienced that, and that you have trouble with procrastination.
	Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because if you'd have asked me, you know, were my parents procrastinators, I would have said hell no because they were, I mean, they started two successful businesses and worked so hard and yeah, so that's a great reframe.
	So thank you.
	God, I hope that helps and I appreciate your patience in a challenging chat and I appreciate the challenge of the chat.
	Yeah, I appreciate it.
	It's good to flex.
	No, it's my pleasure and I hope that it works out.
	If you get your business up and running, if there's anything that this show can do to help, of course, just let me know.
	I'm happy to help publicize whatever you've got going, and just let me know.
	Do you mind if I mention our Facebook page on air?
	No, please do.
	Okay, if you go on Facebook, it's just Active Earth Food, and it's A-C-T-I-V-E-A-R-T-H, food.
	And if you like us on Facebook, you know how the social media works.
	It's good for us, so yeah.
	Thank you.
	It's active earth food.
	It's not the couple who called in from Japan, radioactive earth food.
	This is active earth food.
	No, it's organic and the best you can possibly get, so absolutely.
	All right.
	Orgasmic food.
	That's what I heard.
	And so I'm sure there comes a guarantee.
	And that's fantastic.
	I'll order three rutabagas and some Vaseline.
	So congratulations.
	I think that's fantastic.
	Best of luck with the business.
	The only thing, the last thing I wanted to mention was that you mentioned that when you procrastinate, you do something, you do something on Facebook and you listen to hours of FDR. That is never procrastination.
	I'm kidding.
	That was not a good example.
	I just wanted to mention that.
	I think I calculated.
	I've probably listened to about 5,000 hours.
	It's Mark's research, man.
	Don't you understand?
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Well, thanks so much, Jeff.
	Thanks very much, guys.
	Thank you.
	And I appreciate the chat.
	And best of luck with the business.
	Keep me posted if you can.
	And, Mike, who do we have next?
	All right.
	Agony.
	You're up next, Agony.
	Hello.
	Can you hear me?
	I can.
	How are you doing?
	Um...
	I'm not very clear on the question I want to ask you, because I was going to spend a week or two thinking about what I was going to ask, and then this call came up in about an hour, so I've made a few notes, but it's kind of a mess.
	All right.
	Well, I appreciate you saying that up front.
	You're supposed to be finding it out in ten minutes, so thanks.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so, um...
	I guess I'm just sort of...
	Okay, so, um...
	Hey, no rush.
	If you're feeling strong, take your time.
	No problem.
	Yeah, I had a call with you a year ago.
	A little more than a year, a year and a half ago.
	And I've started working on making my life better.
	And I'm just kind of going through kind of a growth panic.
	Right.
	It's...
	Yeah.
	Just...
	Just, I had been, I've been trying to make, had been making, trying to make progress for about ten years, and I hadn't been making progress, and I just kind of, I got kind of numb.
	And...
	Yeah, actually...
	Actually thinking about things...
	It's getting better.
	Just...
	It's bringing up a lot.
	I'm losing...
	I'm losing my motivation to actually push the...
	You mean to continue growing kind of thing?
	Yeah.
	Is it bringing up stuff for you yourself or is it bringing up stuff in your relationships with others?
	Or both, I suppose.
	It's...
	I've...
	It's kind of hard for me to know how other people have been experiencing me while I'm changing.
	Because...
	I haven't really been asking for honest feedback from them.
	Have you been asking for any feedback at all?
	No, that's something I... Have people around you noticed that you're changing?
	I... I moved out of my parents' house in September.
	So...
	I mean, when my brother helped me move, he was...
	Yeah, he was really positive about me making that decision to...
	To go and make my own life.
	And it's kind of hard for me to know what anyone else has thought of it because he's been one of the few people that have actually talked to me about it.
	I'm a little vague, if you don't mind me saying so, I'm a little vague about what it is that we're talking about.
	Yeah.
	Can you give me some more specifics?
	Yeah, I mean my first call, I talked about having a hard time making a connection with people and I still want to tell people what I'm thinking and what I'm feeling and I
	almost feel like people don't deserve to know who I am because when they have known me for so long and they haven't seemed to show interest in me.
	You mean sort of friends and family from your childhood?
	Yes.
	Right.
	Those relationships are very, very hard to reform.
	Very, very hard to reform because there's so many habits, right?
	You know, there's this idea like when you're breaking a particular dysfunctional habit, like if you're a drinker, right?
	Then you should not hang around your drinking buddies at bars, right?
	That's just not going to work very well because there's so many old associations and so many habits, right?
	Yeah.
	And so when you're around people that you've had particular dysfunctional patterns with when you were a child and you grow, the most common thing, I think, at least from what I've heard and experienced, the most common thing is you kind of grow like in a direction outside.
	Like if you've ever grabbed a balloon that's blown up and you squish it in your fist, you know what happens.
	Like each side bulges out.
	From your little finger and your palm, right?
	Because you squish this bit in the middle and it bulges out and it's like you have these constrictive relationships in your history and when you grow, it's like you can't grow inside the fists.
	So you just bulge out outside and then you're someone new with new people and then you go back to the people who were there before or who you knew before and then you kind of have to give all that up.
	Because if you try and bring that in, you bring your new growth into your old relationships, it can be really tough.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yeah.
	I mean, initially, I had the thought to have this conversation with him.
	Your brother?
	Yeah, with my brother.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And I just didn't feel like I could actually do it.
	Right.
	Right, because what if he tries to put you back in a box, if that was the case with your relationship?
	Is he on the growth thing too, or no?
	Oh, yeah, he's been...
	I mean, I'm not really sure how much he is, but he's been listening to your show.
	And we've been able to have some conversations about it.
	So what's scary about talking about your growth with him or showing him sort of the new you kind of thing?
	It's...
	It's...
	I want to keep the relationship.
	I think I could still enjoy things with him as it is, but I very much want to have a better relationship with him.
	All right.
	So you have something functional with him and it's like bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, right?
	Like if you reach for more, then you might lose what you have.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And that's the growth anxiety that you're primarily talking about, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Right.
	And when you first started talking, obviously you were emotional, which is, I mean, I think good and healthy emotional.
	And what were you emotional about, do you think?
	What was going on for you that made you feel that strongly?
	Wait, what did I say?
	Well, you were emotional when we first started talking, and I'm just wondering, I think it may be related, but what is it that you were emotional about, or what did you feel strongly about when you and I first started talking tonight?
	I might be fogging about that right now.
	Oh, if you don't recall, that's fine.
	You'll have a chance to listen to the show again, and I hope you do.
	But...
	Is your growth anxiety to do mostly with your brother or the other relationships that would be challenging to bring the new you to?
	Oh, it's my brother.
	I mean, when I think about my sisters or my mother and my father, I really don't think those are going to work out and it doesn't make me as uncomfortable or really It makes me uncomfortable at all to think that this might end, but it's my brother's.
	Right.
	Is it – and I'm sorry to hear that things may not work out with the rest of your family.
	But if it doesn't work out with the rest of your family, how is that going to work with your brother?
	Because that can be tough, right?
	I mean, if let's say you're not talking to your parents for some particular period of time and your brother is still talking to them, then it's a bit awkward, right?
	Yeah.
	Because then you either have to say, don't tell what we're talking about to our parents, which is kind of asking for a kind of confidence, which you certainly can do.
	It's just obviously a bit awkward.
	Or you kind of cross your fingers and hope that he doesn't talk about the stuff that you're talking about.
	With your parents, right?
	Right.
	So that can definitely be tricky.
	But is there anything else that I'm missing about what the challenge is for you at the moment?
	I had a relationship end after I started making progress.
	I had a friend that I would spend about 8 to 10 hours with every Sunday.
	And to have that...
	to have that and sort of I mean I I don't want
	to spend more time with him but I still get a sense of how he's the it could be for a relationship that seemed that solid to just end Thank you.
	And why didn't you want to spend more time with him?
	I it was like he was moving in the opposite direction I was That he...
	I'm sort of pulling away from my familial relationships, and he's...
	His mother got cancer, so he started spending a lot more time with them.
	And he's kind of getting pulled into those bad family relationships, and I just couldn't enjoy spending as much time with him.
	Right.
	Now, is there anything specific that I can help you with, with regards to your brother?
	I mean, there's some stuff that's within the control of how you approach it, but then there's other stuff that isn't, right?
	Is there anything I can do to help you with that?
	I... Well...
	I think I need to work on actually soliciting the honest feedback to be curious about how he feels about the relationship instead of just coming to him and saying this is how things are going to be.
	Yes, for sure.
	The feedback.
	Everyone who has a relationship with us is a customer.
	And I mean, that's a cold word.
	I got a car wash today.
	I was their customer too, right?
	But everyone who we have a relationship with is a customer.
	And businesses or relationships don't get very far in any sustainable manner without...
	Without asking people, without asking the customers of our services and ourselves how we're doing.
	You know, how would you grade me, right?
	I mean, again, I ask this to my daughter and my wife a couple of times a week at least.
	Is there anything I could be doing different?
	Anything I could be doing better?
	What do you like?
	What do you not like?
	And so on.
	It is really important to know How other people are experiencing us.
	Things in relationships should not come as big surprises.
	You know, people say to me all the time, you know, well, this happened in the relationship and I never saw it coming.
	And when I was a manager and if a salesperson, like if some big customer cancelled their account and the salesperson said, I never saw it coming.
	What do I know about that salesperson?
	Well, he's done a shitty job.
	Because if something major happens in a relationship, whether it's personal, sexual, romantic business, and people never saw it coming, I mean, that's bullshit.
	It means that they have not been in connection with people to the point where they know what's happening in the relationship.
	Never saw it coming.
	People will say that, right?
	If a salesperson has been neglecting an account and the account gets pulled, of course he's going to say, I never saw it coming.
	There was no way to predict it, blah, blah, blah.
	He'll make up some story rather than say, shit, I neglected that account.
	I just cost us a million bucks a year.
	So, yes, it is very important.
	It was important for you when you were a kid for your parents to ask, how's my parenting?
	What do you like?
	What are you not like?
	What's better?
	What's worse?
	I mean, that's how you fight statism, fundamentally, is you solicit feedback as a parent.
	Because the state never asks you that shit, right?
	And if parents don't ask it, it just sets up kids to be slaves to the state, right?
	But I am providing a service called fatherhood to my daughter and a service called philosopher to my listeners and a service called husband to my wife.
	And when I was in business, I would continually ask the clients what they liked, what they didn't like, what they preferred, what they didn't prefer, what they used, what they didn't use, how we were doing.
	And our retention rate was fantastic.
	Last time I talked to the people who were still running the company that I co-founded, like 15 years ago, they were still getting money from accounts that I had set up and solicited feedback from.
	Right?
	So relationships should not be full of things that come as a surprise.
	And if you are scared of feedback from your brother, it's because, as you pointed out earlier, you haven't been soliciting feedback from your brother.
	So you're not sure where he's at.
	But you should always be pretty sure about where things are at.
	You know, I say to my daughter, did you feel loved today?
	Yes.
	Is there any way you could have felt more loved?
	Say that to my wife.
	Try and say that to listeners.
	Did the conversation work for you?
	How many times during a show do you hear me say, does that make any sense?
	Does that make sense to you?
	Or am I just lecturing to myself or to everyone else?
	So when did you stop asking your brother for feedback or did you ever ask him for feedback?
	I don't remember a time of ever doing it.
	And that means, of course, that your parents didn't model that behavior, right?
	Right.
	Your parents did not ask for feedback on how they were doing.
	Is that correct?
	Yeah.
	I mean, just to be frank, that's terrible.
	I know it's the norm.
	I mean, parents, they don't even think for the most part of asking children.
	Whether they like what they like, what they don't like, how the parents could be doing better.
	And then they say, my child just won't listen.
	It's like, I want to model listening for my daughter.
	That means I listen to my daughter.
	I want to model.
	Like, if I want my daughter to alter her behavior to please me, I have to show her how I alter my behavior to please her more.
	I mean, you cannot ask...
	As a parent for what you do not provide.
	I mean you can, it's just ridiculous.
	So it makes sense that you wouldn't have asked your brother how the relationship is going or what he could have preferred or what he would prefer.
	Because it was never modeled for you.
	Any more than you're both about to break out into fluent Urdu chatting with each other.
	Now, what do you fear your brother might say if you ask him that question?
	I...
	Just when I'm talking to anyone, not specifically him, but when I talk to anyone, I get a very strong sense of either being annoying or boring. I get a very strong sense of either being annoying Amen.
	Thank you.
	And...
	It's...
	I don't get that sense with him.
	He does show interest, but I still get the sense that as soon as I start asking him how he feels about the relationship, that it will trigger that annoyed response.
	Well, I wouldn't start off by asking him.
	I mean, to me, if you want to have the best chance of success, in my opinion, in these conversations, I think it's important to be honest with him, which means tell him that you really care about him.
	Obviously, you do, right?
	And you really care about the relationship.
	And that you're going to ask something unusual that's not part of sort of the family dynamic or has never been part of the family dynamic.
	But, you know, you could say, listen, what's his name?
	Kevin?
	Kevin.
	So listen, Kevin, it's weird.
	I know it's weird, right?
	But you know when we go to Pizza Hut and they give us the meal and they give us this thing on the back of the bill which says, you know, tell us how we did today and you'll win a free appetizer or a free pizza massage from our Geisha girls or something.
	And, you know, we kind of appreciate that.
	We probably don't fill them out much, but we like that they care about what we think.
	And, you know, you've listened to this crazy guy on the internet, right?
	So...
	Why shouldn't we do what works for a pizza place?
	I mean, my relationship with you is certainly more important than my relationship with pizza.
	I mean, unless I'm really hungry.
	And so I'd like to ask you that.
	I know it's kind of weird.
	It's not really part of our family thing.
	It's not really part of society thing for family members to ask for feedback on how they're doing.
	But I'm interested in trying new things and I think it's really important.
	So tell me if you don't mind.
	How is our relationship working out for you?
	Right?
	He'll say, it's fine or whatever, right?
	And he'll say, is there anything that is bothering you?
	Anything I do that annoys you?
	Well, there's conversation.
	I don't know, whatever, right?
	Anything I do that you like or that you'd like to see more of?
	I mean, what would be the ideal, like couldn't get any better kind of stuff, right?
	And so if you tell him it's going to be unusual and you give him an analogy to something he's familiar with, then it's not coming kind of out of the blue, so to speak.
	Does that help at all?
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	Now, if he is short-tempered and says, everything's fine, what are you talking about, right?
	Right.
	Then, you know, again, depending on how you feel, the honest, I think, thing to say is, well, that's...
	It's a bit upsetting to me like that when you say that because...
	Everything's fine is not there's not much detail in that and I have been changing a lot lately right and so there may have been some things that have changed for you some for the better maybe some for the worse but you know it can't just be fine like it was five years ago because I'm I'm different than I was five years ago at least I think I am so if you could help me out with a little bit more detail I would You know,
	I would hugely appreciate it.
	And then he might say, well, I don't know.
	What are you looking for?
	It's like, well, I don't want you to provide to me what I'm looking for because that's just sort of complying with something and it's not what I want.
	want.
	I want to know if you've noticed any changes or if any of the changes are good or if any of the changes are bad or which are which for you.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I think that's where I would probably where I probably have the problem with the conversation because if he's not very responsive, I'm not very talkative myself.
	so it could be easily shut down just because I'm not keeping it going.
	Well, it could be easily shut down is a pretty passive way of putting it, right?
	Really?
	I mean, you can just keep asking.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
	I think that I would ask and then I would let it drop.
	Right.
	And that is something that you don't have so much of the luxury of doing anymore.
	I'm afraid I must disallow that.
	Foul!
	And the reason I'm saying that is because you have a commitment to truth, to honesty, right?
	I mean, you listen to this show, right?
	I assume that that much has come across, right?
	Right.
	And you also know...
	One of the things that is really important about philosophy and maturity, and I'm not saying you don't have either of them, but one of the things for those in the audience, right?
	One of the things that's really important about philosophy and about wisdom is to lengthen and prioritize the long-term costs of short-term gains, right?
	So we all know, like somebody who smokes, the next cigarette is a lot easier than quitting, right?
	Just having another cigarette is a lot easier than quitting because although quitting obviously is much better in the long run.
	I mean you don't die of horrible diseases, right?
	Or at least you're less likely to.
	So one of the things that philosophy I think wisely teaches us is to say it may be uncomfortable in the moment, in this relationship, but it is essential to For the survival and growth of this relationship that I tackled this discomfort in the here and now.
	Because we all know what happens when we back down from something because we're scared.
	We feel shrunken.
	We feel like a dandelion fluff in a high breeze.
	We feel weak.
	We feel diminished.
	And we kick ourselves, right?
	And in that moment, there's that choice.
	Do I continue to speak despite my fear?
	Or do I let the fear take over and exercise my avoidance muscle, which just makes that muscle stronger, right?
	All right.
	So you can just be persistent and be openly honest about that.
	I mean, again, how many times you have me on a show saying, I'm sorry for being annoying, I'm sorry for being persistent, you know, I'm sorry for being abrasive, but this is important for me to understand or something like that, right?
	Yeah.
	So as long as you acknowledge the truth about what it is that you're doing, like, I feel uneasy about continuing, it's freaking me out, but I'd like to anyway.
	And recognize that it may be difficult for your brother.
	It probably is.
	It's different, right?
	And if your brother connects with you at a deeper level, that is going to expose Some deficiencies in his current relationships, right?
	I mean, the average man in Japan doesn't feel short until there's a big-nosed foreign person wandering around from Europe, right?
	And then they maybe suddenly feel short, right?
	We don't feel a deficiency until we see an excess.
	And so if you actually do connect and are curious about things with your brother and solicit feedback and so on, By the very nature of doing that, he is going to see all the relationships in his life at some level where that does not happen at all, right?
	Right.
	You hear these stories of people who come over from Eastern Europe or Russia, right?
	And they walk into a Walmart and their jaws just hit the fucking floor, right?
	Because they're like, I didn't even know stores could be this full.
	Of such cool stuff, right?
	Because an excess really highlights a prior deficiency.
	So, just be aware of that, that it is not, you know, most times it's not even about you when people get upset, it's about all their other relationships, it's about all their other relationships, right?
	So be aware of that.
	You know, an upgrade from you is going to affect his work relationships, his romantic relationship, his relationships with his family.
	You know, upping the standard really messes up a lot of things, right?
	I mean, for your average Mormon to embrace rationality and empiricism, I mean, that's really tough on their existing relationships, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So I would really focus on that stuff to help make it less anxiety-provoking.
	And again, it doesn't all have to be in one conversation.
	It doesn't all have to be in a row, but that would be my suggestion.
	Yeah.
	I'm afraid I have stunned you into monosyllabic answers.
	Does this give you any sort of way to move forward?
	What has been your experience of this call?
	It started off with I think a good deal of sensitivity and vulnerability.
	It was confusing to me when I mentioned that you'd been emotional at the beginning and you had no memory of it.
	Right.
	After that I sort of lost track of where you were emotionally.
	Because I would get sort of these yes-no answers with no particular emotional content.
	So I ended up having to sort of speak more to the general audience because I wasn't sure how to connect with you at that point.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yes.
	yeah but great questions you know great and challenging questions and very important questions you know Growth is partly about us, but its most significant impact tends to be on those around us.
	So, I mean, it's great questions that you're asking and very important things that we're talking about.
	And you, what was your experience of the call?
	I I... It's very different from what I experience in other conversations with people because just with the amount of time I've listened to you in your podcast, it really...
	I know I can be open with you.
	And I don't have to have that That fear of...
	Of you pulling away from me.
	The way that I... So much fear...
	My brother pulling away from me.
	And...
	It really feels like...
	Like being seen...
	Like I... Like you can...
	You really...
	I understand where I'm coming from.
	All right.
	Thank you.
	Like, I've had a couple of therapists that I've stopped seeing just because it didn't really seem like they were responsive to me.
	Were they sort of emotionally neutral?
	And, you know, how do you feel about what you just said kind of stuff?
	It was...
	Yeah, there was one moment in particular I remember very well, where it was the very beginning of one therapy session.
	And I told him that I had been feeling really emotionally numb the whole day before coming into the therapy session.
	And then he just kind of said, okay.
	And then moved on with what he had already planned out for the therapy session.
	Hmm.
	Hmm.
	Yeah, I mean, I'm no therapist, but I would assume that What the person comes in with the first thing is probably pretty important to talk about.
	Right.
	And as far as getting something out of the conversation that is sort of useful and productive relative to what you need, how has that been?
	Yeah, um...
	Yeah, I mean, soliciting that honest feedback has been one of the things I've been having the most trouble with.
	And just trying that for the first time, I think it's going to get that ball rolling.
	and then I can actually ask my brother about how he feels about our relationship.
	Great. - Yes.
	Well, I think it's important.
	I mean, it is important to get that feedback.
	Otherwise, the relationship may succeed or it may fail, but it's much more important, I think, to try and be as much in the driver's seat as possible.
	Yeah, that's going to be hard for me.
	But, yeah, I really need to do it.
	Thank you.
	I think so.
	I mean, I think it's a good idea.
	And if there's a lot of resistance, you know, again, you can try.
	You can try it another time or whatever.
	But I generally, I like to know what's going on in my relationships because they're the most important thing to me.
	And so, and you can't guess, right?
	You have to really get that feedback.
	Yeah.
	Will you maybe drop me a line and let me know how it goes?
	Do you just want that in an email?
	Yeah, that would be great.
	You can just email me.
	Operations at freedomainradio.com is a good way to get through.
	So, yeah, I would certainly be curious to know how it goes.
	Yeah, on the last call you asked me to give you the feedback on how it went, and yeah, I didn't do that.
	Shocking.
	Well, I must give you feedback that I'm disappointed.
	No, I'm kidding.
	It's fine.
	It's not like I don't get enough emails as it is.
	But if you do, I'd appreciate it.
	If you could remember, I'd appreciate it.
	Right.
	No, because, I mean, if I'm giving you some feedback, I'd also like to know how the feedback works out for you as well.
	That's important to me.
	Right.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	You are very welcome.
	I will have to say goodnight to everyone.
	The hour grinds along here and I see that the moon is just setting beyond the moonscape.
	So thank you everybody for a wonderful show.
	Thanks to the callers as always.
	Thank you.
	To Mike for staying up past his 8pm, I think, court-enforced curfew.
	So have yourselves a wonderful week.
	FDRURL.com forward slash donate if you'd like to help out the show.
	Remember, you get a free PDF copy of, I think, a pretty great novel that I wrote in my 20s.
	Oh my God, it was 20 years ago that I wrote that novel.
	So have a wonderful week.
	I guess I will speak to everyone.
	We're back on schedule for Wednesday night.

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