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Oct. 29, 2013 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:07:18

2518 Escaping Doublethink - Monday Call In Show October 28th, 2013

Working in military surveillance, violating the non-aggression principle, parent/child communication, the consequences of withholding connection from children, self-erasure, questions not plugs, a human firehose, being assertive and escaping doublethink.

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	I'm here.
	Your audio sounds a bit rough, Steph.
	What are you waiting for, midnight?
	Alright, if you can mute, Brendan, we'll get started.
	Never.
	If stuff will allow us, we'll get started.
	Fine.
	Fine.
	Would you like to do an intro?
	I thought I was getting an employee.
	I got a boss.
	All right.
	No, I don't really want to do an intro.
	It's the 28th of October.
	Let's get to the callers.
	All right, Cole, you're up first today on this late night philosophy call-in show.
	Go ahead.
	All right.
	Hi, Seth.
	Hi, Cole.
	Just want to say how honored I am to be on your talk show.
	Yeah.
	But my question is, recently I joined the Army, which is probably not the best idea I've ever had.
	But I got a job dealing with satellites because I had been in the IT field for a little while.
	Sorry, you got a job doing what with satellites?
	Oh, in the Army.
	I got a job.
	I... It's a secret clearance, so as much as I can tell you is that I watch satellites and watch for threats that could harm our soldiers or positions of enemy combatants, things like that, to help protect soldiers.
	But my question is, sometimes I find myself looking at these satellite images and even live feeds at the groups of the locals and thinking to myself, If I am the one that points out that this group shouldn't be congregating in one place or if they seem to be doing something that looks suspicious,
	I'm the one that flags these people, which then soldiers will go over and talk to these people and even possibly engage them violently.
	So my question is, Am I the one initiating the force and not these soldiers for the use of violence?
	That's a very interesting question.
	What do you think?
	I think I am the one that initiates the use of force because I'm the one that flags them as, you know, not doing good.
	But then again, they're just trying to fight off an occupation.
	So is it me who initiates the force or these soldiers that then go intercept them?
	Well, you don't.
	I mean, if you were calling in an airstrike that you knew for certain, like if you say this is going to happen, then the bunker busters rain down, then without a doubt, you would be the initiator of the use of force, though you would not actually be dropping the bombs, right?
	Right, I mean...
	Right, like if I hire a hitman, I am obviously doing something that's quite criminal, because without me hiring the hitman, the murder would not have occurred, even though I have not pulled the trigger or anything like that.
	But this is not the case.
	You call in possibly suspicious aggregations of individuals, and then people will go and check that out, but you don't know for sure if they're going to use force at that time, right?
	That's their judgment on the ground.
	Yeah, that's a ground judgment.
	But had they not been supplied the intel to know where these aggregations of men are or what they're possibly doing, there wouldn't be any sort of any type of violence or force that could ever happen because they would have never been in that place at that time.
	No, I understand that.
	But I don't know that you need to go that far to find the initiation of force.
	I mean, your paycheck is the initiation of force, right?
	Your living quarters, your food, all of that.
	I mean, I don't know if you need to go that abstract.
	I mean, everything that you eat is taken from other people by force.
	All of the shelter that you receive, the pay that you receive, the pension that you're going to receive in the future...
	All of that is taken from people by force, so I don't know that we need to go too abstract to find how the initiation of force affects your environment and your life.
	But since I have pledged to non-initiate force and I accept the non-aggression principle, even joining the army goes against that, doesn't it?
	Well, yeah, I mean...
	I would say that joining the army, it's pretty tough to uphold a lot of moral commandments if you join the army.
	You know, thou shalt not kill.
	You know, you don't have to go to the non-aggression principle.
	Thou shalt not kill would be one of them.
	Thou shalt not steal.
	Of course, the government steals from the poor, the unborn and other taxpayers the money to pay you.
	so it is definitely a very challenging belief to uphold, but my understanding is that if you develop beliefs when you're in the military that go against your military service, that you can ask to be let out.
	Is that not the case?
	You can, but I'm pretty sure that comes with an other than honorable discharge, which would not help me in the private sector.
	No, I understand that, and I'm not trying to tell you what to do, of course, right?
	But...
	What you're doing is not helping people keep their limbs together, right?
	So if it's a little bit more difficult for you in the private sector, and first of all, the private sector is a pretty varied beast.
	And there's lots of people who listen to this show or who are libertarians and so on who would actually view that as a mark of honor to get out of the military based upon moral considerations.
	So it's not like the whole private sector would look at you askance if you took that particular path.
	And in fact, I've got an interview with a guy who took that path where he talks more about it.
	There's lots of resources that can help you and so on.
	And again, I don't know what you should or shouldn't do, but I think if you would say, well, it might affect my paycheck in the future, that may not be a very morally compelling reason to avoid that kind of outcome.
	That's a great way of looking at it.
	Thank you, Stephan.
	Oh, don't thank me.
	I may be opening up a very challenging road, at least in your mind, but I certainly thank you for bringing it up and I thank you for your sensitivity to what it is that you're doing.
	I mean, that's incredibly noble.
	That to me is where the real battle is.
	How did it come about that you started getting down into these crazy ideas when you were already in the military?
	I assume it didn't happen before.
	It happened quite a few times.
	Even during my AIT, which is where I learned how to use the satellites, I was looking at just test simulators of the environment over there, and I was just like, what are these people doing?
	Why should we care?
	Why should we be spying on them from space?
	So, I mean, just...
	It's been there ever since I learned how to use them that I am constantly...
	Spying on people, and if they get in large groups, then somehow that's supposed to offend me.
	Day one, I guess.
	And how did you end up joining the Army?
	What was the path for that for you?
	Well, all of my family's been Military of some sort.
	My dad was a Marine.
	Got PTSD from that.
	So I decided I'm not going to be a Marine.
	But still went into the military, even knowing that I'm probably just giving my life to the military-industrial complex, who has no thought or no forgiveness for my life.
	They don't care where I blow up, as long as they don't have to pay for me anymore.
	I'm sorry to interrupt.
	Was your theory that only Marines get PTSD? No, no.
	I know that all branches get PTSD, but Marines seem to have a higher suicide rate, PTSD rate, and see a lot more combat than the other branches.
	Yeah, and I read a story about a drone operator who was told that he was responsible for over 1,600 And of course, this is just settled on him like black encasing snow.
	And it is funny how weirdly abstract all of this has become.
	You never see anyone's eyeballs.
	You never smell any blood.
	You never see any body twitches or exploded intestines or anything like that.
	It's all very video gamey, right?
	Very.
	I've worked...
	I would say closely, but not really with drone operators, since they rely on maps and stuff taken by our satellites.
	And they just, they seem, the ones I've dealt with anyway, seem like, you know, a bunch of, they have no real connection to what they're doing.
	They're just playing a video game, they press a button, they see an explosion, and they just keep playing with the joystick, and they don't ever realize you just dropped a Hellfire missile on like 10 people.
	And you don't know who you hit.
	You were just told to hit them.
	Yeah.
	No, I think that they know.
	They're skating above that knowledge.
	It's accumulating underneath them, right?
	Like somebody shoveling bodies in your house.
	You might have a party, but the next morning it's kind of smelly, right?
	So, yeah, they probably know deep down.
	I'm sure they do.
	I mean, you can't avoid that knowledge.
	I mean, you don't get paid and shipped overseas to play video games, but...
	If you're willing to disassemble human beings for real, then you can pick up some bucks.
	What did your father say about you going into the military?
	He was all about it.
	He was like, I'm proud of you for joining the military, even though it's not the Marines.
	You're going into the Army, which stands for aren't really Marines yet, and all this other stuff, all this propaganda that he's been fed since he was a child.
	He was glad.
	How did or does his PTSD manifest itself?
	Do you mean how does he react whenever he has a PTSD episode?
	How do you know he has PTSD? What does it look like?
	Oh, I don't know if he has PTSD. I personally think he's lying to get the VA money, but he does.
	Sometimes, after fireworks and such, he will cringe up, he will grind his teeth, you know, he'll shiver.
	If there's any tool or object nearby, he'll grab it and he'll shoulder it like it's his M16 and he'll point it around and start yelling to get on the ground.
	I mean, like, he's...
	He goes back to being in combat and he wants to assert his dominance and kill.
	He goes back into that stereotypical Marine where all they do is kill, kill, kill.
	So it's quite scary.
	Is he disabled at the moment?
	Is that right?
	Yes, he is 100% disabled, veteran.
	And his perspective or his story or what he believes is that it is PTSD that has disabled him?
	Yes, that's what he says.
	He has no other type of physical...
	Help me to understand this.
	I'm just trying to fathom this.
	If I entered an occupation that left me permanently disabled, I just...
	I can't imagine...
	That I would encourage my child to do the same.
	That's exactly how I feel.
	I would think that since he has PTSD, that he would tell me to never join the Marines, that the Marines did this to him, and that it's the epithet of evil.
	But he wants people to become Marines, which is like not learning your lesson.
	Well, I'm very sorry for that.
	I'm incredibly sorry that you didn't have I'm incredibly sorry for that, and I'm very sorry for the situation that you're in now.
	I would be careful about my conscience.
	If you have the sensitivity to project yourself into the landscape that your actions may cause to explode, Then I think that it's a very risky situation to be in for your ethics, for your conscience, for your capacity to love in the future and so on.
	It's a very dangerous place to be and there are lots of resources out there.
	If you do decide to take a route out based upon...
	Your ethical considerations, which again I hugely applaud you for.
	There's lots of resources available for people who do not any longer accept the ethics of state-sponsored murder for hire.
	And I would certainly encourage you to look into those and try and decide what is going to be best for you.
	But those would certainly be my considerations, fully recognizing what an enormous challenge it is that you would be facing.
	Thank you, Stefan.
	You're very welcome.
	Best of luck.
	All right, John.
	You're up next today, John.
	Go ahead.
	Hello.
	Soundcheck.
	Hi.
	Oh, hi.
	Stefan Nomenu.
	Hi.
	How are you doing?
	Thanks for having me on.
	I'm actually a new member of the Free Domain Radio site.
	I came across you actually about three or four months ago, and I started watching your videos.
	I haven't seen them all.
	There's, I think, thousands of them.
	I just want to, before I ask my question, I just want to compliment you on the time and the advice that you give the people that call into your show.
	I think that's just amazing.
	Like, who's doing that?
	No one.
	You.
	You're it.
	So I just, huge compliments for that.
	Well, thank you.
	I've always felt that philosophy is for the marketplace.
	You know, philosophy is you learn what is a good methodology for truth.
	You hopefully learn some truths and you go out and you talk to people.
	And, you know, more importantly, you listen to people.
	You know, a lot of the Socratic dialogues are Socrates not talking, but rather listening.
	And of course, then what happens is you get this wonderful view of what is...
	Important to people philosophically.
	I now have years and, I don't know, a thousand or more conversations with people, actually probably thousands, given that in the Sunday shows there's usually four or five people talking.
	And listen to conversations.
	Some have been released.
	Some of them haven't.
	But I have a sort of unique view in history of what the market is like and what people are really interested in when it comes to philosophy.
	And that, I think, is the real strength of the show.
	So thank you.
	I appreciate that.
	I think that's what philosophy is for.
	I'm sure there are some who would disagree, but that seems to be what's working.
	You're very welcome.
	I'm in a bit of a unique situation.
	I have a five-year-old daughter.
	I live in Beijing and I work as an expat in IT. I've been here for almost nine years.
	And our daughter has dual citizenship until she's 18.
	But they don't start the children in school in China until they're seven.
	However, we've got to...
	Yep.
	We've gone ahead and since last year we had her in kind of a preschool, they call it.
	It's half English, half Chinese.
	So her native language is actually Chinese.
	And I only speak English to her.
	And my wife only speaks Chinese to her.
	That's the rule.
	One person, one language.
	We kind of have that rule.
	My question is, I know that you have a daughter around the same age.
	And I would like to ask, what kind of learning material and this sort of thing that you use for your daughter?
	Do you have to send her to school?
	Because she is foreign status, she could very well be Chinese status as well.
	I don't have to, but if she was just Chinese status, she would have to go to school, like mandatory.
	But no, she doesn't have to go to school.
	No, but I work full-time and my wife works full-time.
	Well, stop doing that.
	No, one of you, right?
	I mean, look, I'm telling you, I mean, I'm just telling you what I think.
	Obviously, it's your choice, but, I mean, boy, I mean, sending her to school is one thing.
	Sending her to a Chinese school?
	I mean, don't they still use corporal punishment?
	Don't they scream at the kids?
	I mean, I've had some other people who are actually friends of mine who've gone over to China and I mean, why would you want to expose her to that?
	Yeah, that's the decision I'm coming to, and one of the reasons why I'm phoning in.
	My wife is dead set against her going to a Chinese school.
	Obviously, she went to a Chinese school.
	Well, and your wife, I assume, is Chinese, right?
	Yeah, and she's Chinese.
	So she knows what she's talking about.
	Right.
	Okay.
	She really does.
	She really does.
	So if she's dead set against it, then why doesn't she quit her job and stay home with your daughter?
	Well, she just got promoted, and she's only been back to work about 10 months.
	And the idea of both of us working was, in a few years, we're going to relocate back to Canada.
	And so we're trying to save up for that.
	But it may not be worth it for her to work.
	Why do you need to, sorry to interrupt, why do you need to save up to move back to Canada?
	I mean, there are jobs here too, right?
	Yeah, well, the thing is, I want the RMB to appreciate, which it will.
	And I want to wait for the housing market in Canada to dump a little bit.
	Yeah, but I mean, you can do that here, right?
	I mean, you could just rent someplace cheaply away for the housing market to depreciate, and you can keep a lot of your money in Chinese currency until it changes its valuation.
	I mean, these are all just, I'm just trying to open possibilities, right?
	Right, right.
	So, I'm not even sure what the job market is.
	It is in Canada right now.
	I know what it's like in China and for me it's actually pretty good because I'm in IT. I imagine it's pretty good for people who have lots of experience in China.
	I mean, I did some business in China and people who knew the Chinese market, given that Canada is attempting to realign itself east-west rather than north-south, given the giant sucking sound currently emanating from the asshole of the American economy.
	So I think that if you have lots of job experience in China, obviously nine years is a long time.
	I imagine that you would be of significant value to people over here.
	But...
	I just don't...
	I mean, is your daughter going to be hit?
	Is she going to be yelled at by the teachers?
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	She's not going to a Chinese school.
	This is not happening.
	I would much rather...
	Okay, so the other option, because she is a Canadian, is there are international schools here, which are more like our schools back home.
	There's still government schools.
	There's government curriculum.
	But it's, you know, 10 times better than a Chinese school.
	However, it's also very expensive.
	Like, really expensive.
	No, I get it.
	So then why doesn't your wife just stay home?
	Because it's probably going to be about as much money to put your kid in a private school and all that.
	I mean, we're not talking, she's not going to be doing advanced quantum mechanics when she's six or seven, right?
	So if you're going to be back in a couple of years, it's just a possibility, right?
	And I'm sure she'd rather learn from your wife than she would from strangers in a classroom.
	So that's the next issue.
	The learning from my wife, because the way she learned was through the Chinese system.
	And when I first came to China, I actually had to try and learn Chinese from her.
	And she's really not a good teacher, and she just doesn't have the patience, and she kind of has this Chinese education and this sort of thing.
	Oh, well, then maybe you could come back.
	I mean, look, the option to put your child in a traumatic environment, this is sort of what I'm trying to get across to you.
	The option to put your child in a traumatic environment where she's going to be yelled at and hit.
	In other words, child abuse is not an option.
	That's really all I'm trying to get across to you.
	Yeah.
	Like you have these, like you want to maneuver around this elephant in the room, right?
	Well, there's these considerations and, you know, the value of my savings and the housing market in Canada.
	And my wife is short tempered when it comes to learning.
	And, right, so you're trying to find a way to navigate around this elephant in the room.
	But the elephant in the room is that child abuse is not a viable option for you.
	I mean, just going to tell you that straight up.
	You can do whatever you want.
	I'm telling you straight up, child abuse morally is not a viable option.
	Whatever you have to do to keep your child out of an environment that is abusive is what you've got to do.
	I don't know how to be more blunt or plain than that, but I don't know if nobody's told you that, I guess, but that's the reality, right?
	That's not an option.
	If you have money, you don't say, well, I can sell my child's hair or her kidney or whatever.
	It's like, no, that's not an option, right?
	Exactly.
	So that's kind of why I'm phoning to hear this sort of thing.
	So my next question would be...
	Well, so you agree.
	Is that fair to say?
	You'll find some way to keep her out of this abusive environment?
	Yes, and my wife, it was just simply not an option for her.
	Our daughter simply isn't going to a Chinese school.
	The next part of the question is for curriculum, because if she's kind of learning at home, I know there was another user on the FDR site, and she gave me some very good resources, like online resources for material.
	And I was wondering what you did with your daughter.
	Do you do the same thing?
	Do you go online and get material and work with her on that?
	Yeah, I mean, we try to get most of the learning done through experience and conversations.
	So she, of course, asks me about everything to do with the show.
	I just did a show with Dr.
	Peter Boghossian, and I sort of relayed a conversation that I had with my daughter about epistemology and knowledge and so on.
	So we try to get it in conversations.
	So we currently have a rocket simulator that we build rockets and try and fly them.
	And we What else?
	We are going through letters.
	So there's some stuff that's just kind of obvious.
	My wife picked up some sort of grade one syllabus books for schools.
	They have some good ideas about how to teach reading and so on.
	But she's learning fantastically.
	I would put her knowledge base at above certainly any other child of her age and some even twice her age.
	So You just, you know, you can read Peter Gray, you can read a bunch of other people, Free to Learn and so on.
	She has experiences and you take her places and you talk about everything.
	I mean, you have a huge wealth of knowledge.
	I mean, she could mine your knowledge as an adult, especially if you listen to this show.
	She could mine your knowledge for years and never get to the bottom of it.
	There is a language barrier.
	So her English isn't that great, is that right?
	Yes.
	Well, I only speak English to her, but it doesn't go too deep, if you know what I mean.
	It's around the house kind of language and playing.
	What the hell was the...
	I mean, I don't understand.
	How is that a plan?
	In what plan do you not need to talk deeply to your daughter?
	Well, see, that's the thing.
	There's a...
	A language barrier.
	And the primary concern right now is probably her learning English.
	And that would be why my wife...
	No, sorry.
	Let me explain that again.
	So there's a language barrier now.
	And why is there a language barrier?
	Well, we live in a condo.
	And my parents-in-law also live here.
	So when me and my wife are working, they take care of Kira and they don't speak any English, like none.
	No, I understand that.
	I understand that she's in China, but isn't it incumbent upon you to work extra hard then to make sure that her English is good?
	Yes.
	I mean, she's your daughter.
	Do you speak Mandarin fluently?
	Yeah, and I cheat.
	I actually speak, you know, I speak to her in Chinese sometimes just because I know that she'll get it right away.
	So you can instruct her in Mandarin then, right?
	Or Chinese.
	I'm not sure what...
	I thought Mandarin was Chinese, but...
	Mandarin is Chinese, yeah.
	It's the same thing.
	Okay, so you can instruct her in Mandarin, right?
	Well, I'm not completely fluent.
	I'm functional, right?
	So...
	So, look, you need to fix the language barrier.
	And also, of course, if you're planning on moving back to Canada, then you need to fix the language barrier significantly, right?
	Why has she never taken any instruction in English?
	No.
	Just around the house with me.
	Why has she never taken instruction in her father's language?
	Well, the schools, if you want to put a child that age in a school, it's actually quite expensive.
	No, no, no, no.
	Come on.
	There are tutors, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	So why has she never taken...
	I'm just asking the annoying questions, and I'm sorry for being annoying, but having a language barrier with your own child is really bad, right?
	Well, yeah, you have a...
	No, no, you have very valid points.
	points.
	I appreciate it, actually.
	So, I mean, if she's growing up speaking Mandarin and you're working full-time, then, of course, she's going to be lagging behind in her English.
	But you and your daughter need to be fluent with each other.
	And given that if you're planning on moving back to Canada, then it doesn't make much sense for you to get more in-depth in Mandarin.
	It makes much more sense for your daughter to get better at English, right?
	Yes.
	So, you've got to get her into private tutoring or some sort of tutoring for English, right?
	Or you have to take a couple of weeks off from work and spend six hours a day with her working on her English.
	Yes.
	Because this is your daughter for the rest of your life.
	And you want to solve it when she's young, not when she gets older, right?
	Because it's going to be a lot harder for her to learn another language when she gets older and she's going to have more distractions, right?
	Exactly.
	Yeah, so I mean, you've really got to just work to break down the language barriers.
	Once the language barriers are broken down, then you have many more options, but putting her in a situation where she's going to get hit and yelled at, this is not...
	That's not an option.
	I mean, you've just got to put that right out of your head and try and figure out what other options you have.
	Because if that's an option, then you're not going to be exploring with much assertiveness the other options, right?
	And so, you know, like you don't get a job if you think you can steal.
	Or if stealing is a real option for you.
	And so, if it's just off the table, then you have other stuff to work with that I think is appropriately raised in its importance and possibility.
	Does that make any sense?
	Makes a lot of sense, actually.
	So the two major things is there's not going to be a Chinese school and the language barrier is going to have to be my primary focus.
	Yeah, and certainly given that you're going to be bringing her back to Canada, it's pretty rough on her.
	If she comes to a country and doesn't speak the language very well for her to then have to struggle to catch up later, you've got to do it now.
	You've got to get her up to speed on English now, because it's just going to get harder, and it's not really very fair on her to bring her to a country when she could have learned the language, especially with a native speaker at home, and didn't.
	I think that would be very rough, and it does raise options for you in terms of what you can do, right?
	Yes.
	Very good advice.
	Thank you very much.
	You're very welcome, and I guess welcome back when you come back, and thank you so much for calling in.
	You're welcome.
	Bye now.
	Bye.
	All right, Nathan, you're up next today.
	Go ahead, Nathan.
	Hey, Stefan.
	Hello.
	Hey.
	Yeah, I'm a little bit nervous speaking on here, so...
	I just have to mention that.
	No problem.
	I appreciate you letting me know.
	I haven't really got a question so much.
	I just want to hear your thoughts and maybe if you can give me some insight into some of the stuff that's going on in my life.
	I've always had this need to isolate from people.
	It's really lonely.
	It's sort of...
	At this point in my life, I want some new friends or I want to see more people.
	I've taken the steps I've joined some groups and stuff, but then it felt like the need to isolate was greater, and then I sort of retreated back.
	I think I get a sense.
	I'm sorry to interrupt.
	I'm assuming you've listened to the show before, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so what's my first question?
	Related to childhood, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, you speak a little bit like you're pushing words through a cheese grater.
	It's not natural or fluid.
	And I know it's partly nerves, right?
	I understand that.
	But it seems like it's kind of hard for you to push the words out.
	Is that fair to say?
	Yeah, it is.
	It is to do with nerves as well.
	I can talk about this stuff easier when I've known someone for a while.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Okay, so what were your connections like when you were a child?
	We used to move a lot and the family was really isolated.
	Like we actually, like I've spoken to my parents about this and they were very, the way my dad put it, he didn't want to have to ask anyone else for help.
	He didn't want to have to ask anyone outside of the family for help.
	The family being me and my mum and dad.
	Yeah, so we just moved around the country every couple of years.
	And we – I'm sorry, what was the question?
	Yeah.
	Well, in terms of your connections with people and the conversations that you had with people, was there a lot of back and forth with conversations?
	Was it a quiet family?
	How did you experience conversations with your parents when you were a child?
	It was usually they would talk to me.
	They would talk to me, but I wasn't always listening to them.
	And when I would talk to them, they were never really listening to me.
	I just remember, it's weird, but I grew up, a lot of the time I never actually noticed this stuff.
	It's only been in the last few years that I'm actually looking at it and putting words and finding ways to explain it.
	I used to talk all the time as a kid, but I don't think I ever knew if anyone was listening.
	What made you think that people might not be listening?
	It wasn't until I was older that I stopped talking as much and I went quiet and I was very selective with who I would talk to.
	Sorry, you just did a great job of demonstrating what happened in your childhood because I asked you a question and you continued as if I hadn't talked.
	I'm not offended.
	I'm just pointing it out.
	Yeah, sorry.
	Can you ask it again?
	Sorry.
	Sure.
	How did you know that people...
	or what made you think that people weren't listening to you?
	They didn't show interest.
	Yeah.
	I'm just thinking of my dad.
	Like he wasn't...
	Okay, I would get from my dad and my mom, they would just sort of...
	They would smile and sort of agree or just say, you know, just like...
	Just display that they were agreeing but not really listening.
	Right.
	Right.
	Yeah, you know, I posted something on Facebook a couple of weeks ago that I was really proud of, and somebody posted a picture of this cold-eyed old grandmother saying, that's nice, dear.
	Yeah, that's pretty, that's it, yeah.
	Yeah, like, that's nice.
	Like, you know the person, it's a bit of a jerky thing to do, to post something like that, because it's a way of trying to bring someone down.
	I mean, it doesn't, it just tells me everything about their level of motivation, but...
	So people around you would not respond to anything particular that you were saying and would not generally ask you clarifying questions?
	Does that make sense?
	Or is that what happened?
	Yeah.
	Actually, my mom and dad did it, but my mom would probably more give a reaction.
	I mean, she would actually have an opinion on it.
	And a lot of the time when she had an opinion on anything that I was doing or I was talking about, she'd be either annoyed or disagree or point out how ridiculous it was.
	You sound very...
	Sorry to interrupt.
	You sound very sad.
	To me, you sound very sad when you talk about this.
	Yeah.
	Well...
	Yeah, it is.
	Yeah, I mean, it goes around in my head every day, like this stuff – Ever since I started looking at this stuff, it's always...
	It's just something I can't stop thinking about in my childhood.
	I just think of everything.
	I think of not just the negative stuff, but all the good stuff in my childhood, and I can't...
	I can't move.
	I can't focus on things that are in the present anymore.
	Yeah, I know that.
	Obviously I can, but yeah.
	No, I know.
	You don't walk into trees, but it's like the pastor swallowed you like the whale swallowed Jonah in the Bible, right?
	Yeah, it doesn't seem important.
	The present doesn't seem important anymore.
	Like I couldn't...
	If I was completely blunt about it, I couldn't give a shit about what's happening at the moment.
	I do want to disappear into this fantasy of all these nostalgic sort of things from my past.
	Yeah, that usually happens when there's no way forward except by going backwards.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	And what are you experiencing physically at the moment in your body?
	When I asked about the sadness that I felt from you.
	Okay, my body...
	I guess my whole...
	My muscular system is stiff and I mean it hasn't changed since I started the call.
	It's been that way since I started talking.
	Alright, well then if you don't mind just indulge me and just breathe a little bit more slower and more deeply.
	That can sort of signal your body to relax a little bit.
	How long did you try and communicate with your parents before you gave up?
	As a kid, you mean?
	As a kid?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, you said that you talked all the time when you were very young and then you gave up or you stopped talking as much.
	I think it probably started...
	I probably started taking more notice of how I was being listened to when my sister was born.
	I have a sister, just one sibling.
	Yeah, I think it started around then that I... And your question was, how long did I... Sorry, can you repeat it, please?
	Sure.
	How long did it take for you to sort of give up on communicating with your parents when you were a child?
	Like, you see, you were chatty as a little kid, and then when did it peter off?
	I don't think I ever had actual proper conversations with my parents.
	I don't think I did that with anyone when I was young.
	Well, if you didn't do it with your parents, I mean, if you didn't do it with your parents, you're unlikely to do it with anyone, right?
	Yeah.
	I probably spoke to my mom more than my dad.
	But even then, you said your mom was sort of mocking and Dismissive, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so I probably spoke to her.
	I probably got more conversation with her then.
	I did speak to her, but I got more judgements from her.
	But that didn't stop me talking to her.
	And what was that like to get these kinds of judgments from your mum?
	Yeah, I mean, it hurt and I felt like an idiot.
	I just felt stupid.
	Stupid how?
	Stupid like I'm doing something wrong, like I'm doing the wrong thing.
	That's not specific.
	Stupid how?
	Okay, stupid.
	How did I feel stupid?
	I mean, I can give you some possibilities if it's like a weird and abstract question.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	Okay, so if I'm talking to someone and...
	If they're not really taking any interest in what I'm saying, then I wonder, okay, am I talking too much about myself?
	Have I asked the other person any questions?
	Am I weird for being interested in what I'm saying?
	Do I just not know how to talk to people?
	Stupid how?
	Doing things wrong how?
	What's underneath that?
	Okay, well, when it happened at the time, when I was younger, I probably wouldn't have thought about it in those ways that you mentioned, but now I think about it like that.
	At the time, I probably...
	Give yourself more credit for when you were younger.
	When you were younger, you don't just feel unspecific about anything.
	There's...
	Emotions require something specific, right?
	I felt hatred towards my mum.
	That's what I felt at the time.
	I felt hatred.
	Okay.
	Go on.
	Yeah, I hated her.
	Yeah, I wanted to punish her.
	That's what I felt at the time.
	And I used to do stuff...
	And what did you hate her for?
	What was the narrative behind the hatred?
	That she didn't want to spend time with me?
	That I wasn't good enough for her?
	That I wasn't doing anything?
	No, no, hang on.
	Back up, back up.
	Back up, back up, back up.
	Because you switched into self-attack there, right?
	I wasn't good enough for her.
	Okay.
	Because if you're not good enough for someone that's a negative towards you, then you'd self-attack.
	You'd say, I hate myself.
	But if you hate her or hated her as a child, it must have been something about her, not about you, that was deficient or problematic.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so your mom doesn't really want to talk to you, doesn't show much interest in you, and puts you down when you talk about what's important to you, and you hate her, and just tell me what the narrative, what's the story?
	and I don't mean that dismissive or it's not true but what are the words behind that that are specific?
	I just haven't thought about this before I'm not...
	It's not a thought, it's a feeling.
	And the feeling has words behind it, right?
	Yeah, okay.
	Okay, I'm not really getting anything.
	Yeah.
	I'll throw out a few possibilities.
	You know, it's your feelings, so I'll throw out a few possibilities.
	You can let me know if they make any sense.
	Does that sound alright?
	Sure.
	Yeah, that sounds good.
	Who the fuck else am I supposed to talk to?
	We're moving all the time.
	We're isolated.
	My sister is still a kid, a little baby.
	I can't talk to her much.
	Who the fuck am I supposed to talk to?
	Dad's not around.
	You're here.
	Yeah, no, that's good.
	No, that fits.
	Yeah, no, it wasn't.
	What am I supposed to talk to my fucking hand puppets?
	The TV? What the fuck?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I remember.
	Yeah, okay.
	Go on.
	Sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you if you were just about to say something.
	I didn't have anyone else to talk to.
	Right.
	Let me try another one.
	Okay.
	Mom...
	I'm boring because you're not listening.
	It's your fault that I'm boring to you.
	You've already decided that I'm not interesting...
	And therefore, I'm not interesting.
	But if you had decided that I was interesting, we could have a whole different relationship.
	We could actually have a relationship.
	It's all about your goddamn decision about who I am that has defined the absence at the heart of our connection or non-connection.
	It's not my fault.
	It's your choice that I'm boring you, because you are deciding to avoid and put me down and dismiss what I'm saying, and therefore I'm in this bind.
	But it's not because of anything innate with me, it's because of the decisions that you have made.
	Yeah, those things have come up with other people.
	You know, if somebody has decided that you're boring, Nate, I mean, how the hell are you supposed to overcome that?
	Thank you.
	Well, the people that have actually said those words to me, I've gotten angry at them and told them to piss off, pretty much.
	Right.
	Now, don't you think...
	That it's pretty cruel to isolate someone and then not provide them the necessities of life.
	Right?
	Like, if I lock someone in my basement and then I don't feed them, that's really shitty, right?
	Yeah.
	Now, parents owe children connection, contact, conversation.
	What is commonly called love, right?
	Parents owe that to their children as much as they owe them food and shelter and medicine and water, right?
	Because if a child is not provided connection, which means listening, curiosity, delight in the other person's thoughts and feelings, sharing...
	If that is not provided to children, and I'm not saying this about you, but if it's not provided to children, in some ways those children are better off dead.
	So a number of years ago in Ceausescu's Romania, abortion was outlawed and there were over 150,000 children who were given up for adoption and placed in these state-run hospitals, state-run orphanages, but they got almost no attention.
	And they were just given food.
	They were given water.
	They were warm.
	And they were blankets.
	And they were just – but they were like these old VHS copies of The Lion King running all day.
	And nobody ever really interacted with the children.
	And then when this was discovered – I've heard a podcast of this.
	Yeah.
	So when this was discovered, the children were adopted by all these French couples and other European couples.
	And the children were like monstrous.
	You know, they throw cats out of windows.
	They have tantrums to the point where they beat their heads bloody against walls.
	Well, they were feds, they were medically taken care of, they were warm enough, they heard human voices and so on, but no connection.
	And I'm not putting you in that extreme category.
	I mean, I'm not saying that.
	But what I'm saying is that to deprive a child of connection, to me, is as serious as depriving that child of necessary medical attention.
	You can't have a child and withhold connection from that child.
	Because we are social animals, right?
	It's one thing to have a cat.
	It's another thing to have a dog.
	A dog is a social animal.
	It needs bonding.
	It needs playing.
	It needs interaction.
	You know, you can go away for a cat for two days, leave them in the apartment.
	You can't go away with a dog and just leave them in the house, right?
	They go insane.
	And babies, and we're even more of that, because we have language, we have connection, communication.
	All the subtleties of thought, expression, and feeling.
	Our faces are a little bit more animate than most dogs, right?
	So we are incredibly social animals, and we need, as children, that connection.
	I swear to all that is holy that my daughter literally talks all day.
	Like, We actually have to remind her.
	My wife was trying to tell me something tonight.
	We actually had to remind her four times to stop talking.
	Now, my interest draws that language out of her because I really, really want to know what she has to say.
	And it's incredibly tragic to me that parents don't take just absolute incredible delight in what their children are able to do.
	I mean, she's four years and change out of the womb and she can just do the most incredible things.
	I mean, it literally blows my mind every single day.
	Like, ten times a day, she just blows my mind.
	And, you know, I was just talking to Peter, this professor at night, was saying how we were talking about what exists and what doesn't exist.
	And because she was asking about my show with Peter, what are you going to talk about?
	What's the topic?
	And I said, it's about, you know, big invisible guy, God, and exists or doesn't exist.
	And she said, well, what do you mean?
	And I said, well, you know, your neighbors exist.
	Yeah.
	Well, how do you know while I go over there and whatever we play and all that kind of stuff?
	And I say, and what if I told you we had invisible ghosts living in her house?
	And she said, no, I don't think that's true.
	And I said, why not?
	She said, let me think.
	I would say it's because if we had invisible ghosts in our house, I would have bumped into them by now.
	I mean, that's fantastic.
	Using one sense to check something else.
	And we talked about, well, you can't see the wind, but it's there.
	You can see its effect on the trees.
	You can't see gravity, but you know it's the same effect everywhere.
	We're having great conversations about pretty intense philosophical stuff.
	She's fucking four.
	I mean, I swear she blows my mind.
	You know, it's like something that...
	Oh, what's his, like, nine-foot-tall, big-toothed banana hands?
	What's that?
	Tony Robbins.
	He...
	Banana fingers, I guess.
	He says to people who say life's boring, he says, life's not boring, you're boring.
	And I say to parents who find their children boring, your children aren't boring, you're boring.
	And so I can understand why you would feel angry because your mother isolated you and refused to feed you the necessary connection.
	That is lifeblood for a child.
	For anyone, really.
	Yeah.
	Why have a child?
	Do you ever get that sense?
	I remember that with my mom.
	She used to say that.
	What did she say?
	She used to say she used to sort of Yell at the sky.
	She'd throw her head up and say, why God did you give me kids?
	That's what she said.
	Are you fucking kidding me?
	No, she used to say that.
	No, no, no.
	You know that that's like the least funny thing in the world, right?
	No, I know it is, but what is funny is when my sister was old enough, because I had a good relationship with her when I was You know, when she could talk.
	And my mum would do that.
	And she would say to her, you're not even talking to anyone.
	Oh yeah, no, my mum would have that.
	And Oscar Wilde writes about that as well.
	Just these imaginary galleries.
	It's like, who the fuck are you talking to?
	Like, there's nobody on the wall.
	What are you talking to?
	Like, the window up there?
	And of course, if God had given...
	Her children, then you guys would be able to cure the sick and walk on water and drive possessed pigs off a cliff and stuff.
	You'd be able to do some really cool shit if God had actually given her children.
	Because the last time that happened, apparently, some very interesting shit went down.
	So she basically wished you were dead or gone.
	Yeah.
	Well, guess what?
	I am now in the ranks of people like yourself who are very angry at your mother.
	Because that is a completely fucking shitty thing to do to your kids.
	That is a death threat.
	Yeah, I know.
	Well, do you?
	Because you weren't really able to express much about the hatred that you said you had towards your mother.
	And you were laughing about the text, right?
	You were laughing about the words.
	So I don't know that you get it like in your heart.
	I think you get it like in your head.
	Yeah.
	No, I'm in trouble with that, yeah.
	Okay, so what's the barrier?
	Why is it hard to get what that does to a child for his mother to wish that she wasn't his mother or that he was dead or gone or something?
	I'm not sure, but it's like when my sister was old enough that I could have a conversation, like an actual relationship with her, she became the main source of she became the main source of my social interaction.
	And I didn't really...
	And then from that point, I didn't really talk to my mum anymore.
	What do you...
	I mean, I'm sorry that that happened, but why are you telling me that in this context?
	I'm not being critical and genuinely want to know.
	Well, I think that...
	Are you saying you became indifferent towards your mother?
	No, no, no, no.
	Don't even try and pull that on me.
	I mean this with all affection and love, Nathan.
	Do not try and pull on me this macho Australian nonsense that you became indifferent to your mother.
	There is no human being alive who is indifferent to his mother.
	No, I didn't become indifferent to her.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	I just dealt with the disappointment and found something better.
	But are you trying to tell me that you got connection with your sister and gave up on it with your mother?
	brother, is that right?
	I just went for something.
	At the time, I wasn't thinking that exactly.
	I just would have gone for what I could get.
	I'm not criticizing in any way, shape, or form.
	I'm really trying to just understand.
	Yeah, I mean, she's...
	At present, she's like that.
	My mom and my sister's like that now, so I don't have that anymore.
	Your sister became like your mother?
	Yeah.
	And did you become like your mother?
	As in, I isolate.
	I mean, I do what she does.
	Are you cruel?
	I definitely...
	I have trouble with empathy with people.
	Do you have a bad temper?
	Yeah, I do.
	I always thought I didn't, but I always did as a kid, and then I learnt to keep it under control, but it's starting to come out again, and so all that stuff is coming out.
	In the last couple of years, everything's sort of bubbling to the top.
	Right.
	And do you feel that you have a connection with that?
	I guess...
	If you don't, do you feel like you have a connection with yourself?
	Yeah, I do.
	When I'm completely alone, as it is when no one's around me, I feel the most happy.
	I mean, I feel lonely, but I also feel happy, like I can think clearly.
	And what happens to you when other people are around that is less positive?
	I second guess everything.
	And I feel like they're not interested in me or that I'm talking or that I'll say the wrong thing or talking too much.
	I don't know what to do with myself.
	I just get heaps of anxiety.
	I feel like I'm about to have a panic attack.
	I can't relax.
	Even with people that I have formed close bonds with, I sort of feel that still.
	It's less than someone I don't see as often.
	So do you sort of feel like a foreigner in your own culture?
	Yeah, I do.
	And of course, there's no culture that you don't feel like a foreigner in, except for solitude, right?
	That's the only country that you can relax, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And I'm kind of in...
	I went into mental health...
	Sorry.
	Around 16, I went into a mental health hospital and that's sort of – I'm on a disability pension now and it's sort of enforced that.
	I'm sort of isolated.
	Do you see a therapist?
	I have seen a few of them.
	I haven't had a lot of luck with those because I don't really know.
	In the ones that I have seen, I haven't known what the problem is.
	So I try and talk stuff out and they want me to...
	A lot of the time they've wanted me to have a goal and I'm not actually sure what the goal is.
	So I'll put one down and I don't stick with it because I don't...
	I'm not sure...
	I think I just needed to talk stuff out sometimes and they weren't always wanting that.
	Well, you need to be visible, right?
	You need to be seen by people.
	And not seen and judged and not seen like, how are you going to entertain me now or how are you going to hold my interest?
	But you just need to be seen by another human being as a human being, right?
	Yeah.
	Without it being...
	Without having to be human doing, but just be human being, to just exist and have somebody be interested in you, right?
	Yeah.
	And I'm going to tell you that that's not going to happen for you as an adult.
	This is the great tragedy.
	You know, when we don't get stuff as...
	No, go ahead.
	I have had...
	I've always had a group of friends around, but in the last few years, I've been realizing that a lot of them aren't my friends because I can't talk to them about personal things.
	I was more the person that would muck around and like the entertainer.
	No, I get it.
	Let me just finish my thought.
	And I appreciate you sharing that.
	And this is something, right, when you start dealing with your past, a lot of what seems like relationships turns out to be nothing, right?
	Spiderwebs in a hurricane.
	Yeah.
	But when...
	And I say this as a father, right?
	So when your baby is a baby, when your child is a baby and your child is very young...
	Then you give them attention because that's the right thing to do.
	Not because they're always so fascinating or anything like that.
	You know, if they're knocking over your blocks for the 20th time in that hour, it's not like that's seriously fascinating or anything.
	But you give them attention because you decided to have a child and that's what a child needs.
	You know, I don't grab random kids off the street and take them to the doctor.
	But once I have a child, I have to take my child to the doctor.
	I have to take her to the dentist.
	I have, you know, whatever, right?
	And so I provide her resources and she does nothing to earn them.
	And that's exactly as it should be.
	I provide her resources and she does nothing to earn them.
	Now, now that I'm an adult, I have to earn people's attention.
	I have to earn people's time.
	I have to earn people's trust.
	I have to earn people's resources.
	That's the transition.
	Now, when we are children, when we're babies and when we're toddlers and when we're children, we want our parents to give us stuff and it's not reciprocal.
	Now, my daughter likes to be reciprocal.
	For sure.
	I mean, no question.
	You know, she'll maybe give me a foot rub, you know, whatever, right?
	And she'll give me some food that she thinks I like.
	But it's not required.
	It's not necessary.
	It's greatly appreciated.
	It's not her job.
	And she doesn't owe it to me.
	Whereas I owe her my time and my attention and my focus and all that kind of stuff, right?
	And I can say to someone, I'm sorry I don't find this topic interesting or whatever, right?
	But I can't say that with my daughter when she's two or three.
	You know, I'm sorry, we just read this book.
	You know, like I'm now reading Eric Kirsten, Emel and the Detectives, for like the fifth time.
	Now, she really, really wants to read this book again, so I'm going to read it with her again.
	I don't want to read it with her again, but I chose to have a child, and this is what interests her.
	And so...
	I will encourage her to read another book.
	I'll go find another book.
	But if this is what she wants to hear, then I have to bend to her preferences.
	It doesn't mean like I have no preferences and I can never say anything now.
	She's almost five, so I can start to negotiate more.
	But you didn't get that as a child, it sounds like.
	You didn't get interest in you.
	You didn't get you're fascinating.
	You didn't get I really want to know what you think and feel.
	You didn't get.
	I hugely appreciate what you bring to my life.
	I mean, I tell my daughter that like every day.
	You know, just I'm incredibly lucky to have her in my life.
	I never take it for granted.
	Never take it for granted that she's with me.
	I also completely know that she has zero options.
	She can't trade me in for anyone, so I have to be The kind of father that if she could choose any father in the world, with all the knowledge in the universe, that she would choose me.
	That's how I have to be.
	And that's rewarding to me.
	That's what I want.
	Because I chose to have a child.
	She didn't choose me.
	She didn't choose to be born.
	She didn't choose her mother.
	She didn't choose her environment, her country, her culture, her language.
	None of that.
	And I mean, I put her to bed every night or most nights that I can.
	And, you know, we'll sit there, we'll lie and we'll chat.
	She has her arm in the crook of my arm.
	And sometimes I'll just tell her just how much fun she is, how much I love her, how incredibly happy.
	And she will literally jump on top of me and give me a big hug.
	Like she appreciates that so much because she knows that she has leverage with me because she knows how important she is to me.
	How much I completely treasure, love, and worship her presence in my life.
	And so she is secure in her bond to the point where now she wants to go see the neighbors, she'll just go off and walk over and see the neighbors.
	She is secure in her bond, which means that she always knows that I'm there for her, have her best interests at heart, take deep delight that she's never boring to me.
	And that I feel incredibly privileged to have her in my life.
	Which I do.
	I absolutely do.
	And the reward of that is the deep bond, affection and love of a child.
	What an incredible reward that is.
	The people who haven't drunk deep from that nectar don't even know what they're missing.
	I mean, that is the most beautiful thing around.
	Now, you didn't get that as a child.
	You didn't get What you were owed, what you deserved, what is necessary to you, and what your parents damn well needed to provide because they chose to have a child.
	Even shouting to the heavens, God, why did you give me these children?
	It's like, you opened your legs, woman.
	And so you didn't get what you needed as a child, and you will never get that as an adult.
	Because there's no healthy person who would be interested in replicating what your mother should have provided to you as a child now that you're an adult, right?
	Somebody who wants to give that much to you is codependent.
	It's not healthy.
	And you're also past the time when it was necessary at that developmental stage.
	If you didn't get enough food as a kid, there's no point eating 5,000 calories as an adult.
	That just means you'll gain weight as an adult, right?
	You have to go back and process what you lost.
	Because when you said you lost in the past, you don't give much of a rat's ass about the present.
	What that tells me, Nathan, is that I think in a very deep way, you are waiting for the past to be fixed in the present.
	And one of the great tragedies of mortality, of our finite lives and of our psychological development, Is that the wounds of the past can never be fixed in the present.
	They just, they can't be fixed in the present.
	And re-experiencing the true loss, re-experiencing the true grieving, the true agony of having been hungry for your mother's love and having her instead wish that she wasn't your mother, which is about as brutal as A thing that you can do to a child.
	And I know this.
	My own mother, one night, I must have been five or six years old, one night, my mom was pacing back and forth.
	We lived in a pretty small apartment in London.
	My mom was pacing back and forth, smoking like a chimney, flops down on the couch and screams at the top of her lungs, God, I fucking hate these children.
	And I remember as a kid in the dark, I mean, I didn't sleep much as a kid for obvious reasons, and I just remember...
	Being kind of shocked that she would say it, but not at all being shocked that she felt it.
	Because I felt like a burden.
	I felt like an imposition.
	I felt like my mom felt that she could be playing Baccarat on the Riviera or starring with Grace Kelly in some movie or...
	I don't know, being the toast of the town or hanging off Liberace's arm or whatever.
	I felt like she felt like she could just have this great life if it wasn't for these goddamn kids with their needs and their preferences and their fighting and their discontents and their whatever.
	And I mean, I know my mom didn't want to be a mom.
	I know that.
	And that meant that I was on shaky ground at all times, that I couldn't piss her off that much because children...
	in history who had a weak bond with their parents, who then became very inconvenient to those parents, what would happen?
	They'd just get thrown into the snowbank, right?
	They'd get left behind.
	They'd just, meh.
	Forget it.
	Let's hand you over for some child sacrifice or throw you into the water to appease the shark gods or something.
	But you just wouldn't, right?
	So you become kind of an empty, compliant...
	Hide from all displeasure.
	Don't rock the boat.
	Don't cause too many problems kind of person.
	You self-erase because your presence is offensive to your caregivers, right?
	Yeah.
	And that will never be solved by anyone in the future.
	That will never be fixed by anyone in the future.
	It can't be.
	Because the time has passed and nobody will do that for you unless you pay them But you're not supposed to pay your mother, right?
	Right.
	What do you think?
	Yeah, no, no, it don't make sense.
	I haven't thought about that part of it before, of my childhood, but not in depth like that anyway.
	But I have spoken to my mum about my childhood, and it was only recently.
	It was...
	She never used to touch me as well when I was a kid.
	I talked to her about that.
	Why didn't she touch you?
	There's a long thing that happened.
	It's to do with her childhood.
	She got molested when she was a kid.
	That's just how she was.
	She was like that with my dad as well.
	She never touched him.
	But they didn't.
	I mean, they obviously would have at some point, but I never saw them, like, show affection for each other.
	I saw my dad show up, but my mom would push him off.
	I'm sorry.
	I mean, touch, as you know, again, is essential for...
	I mean, I can't even sit down without getting a body slam into the lap for my daughter.
	I mean, she's...
	She's still such a lap cat.
	So yeah, touch is so, so important.
	And I'm incredibly sorry.
	At every conceivable angle, your connection with others was distorted and interrupted.
	I didn't get it from my dad, though.
	I'm sorry?
	I did get it from my dad.
	He was affectionate physically, and he still is that way.
	Yes, but your mother was your primary caregiver, I would assume, right?
	Yeah.
	And your father decided to get married to a woman who, I assume, was an unprocessed victim of childhood sexual abuse?
	Yeah.
	Man, oh man.
	I don't know how people think that they can be molested as children, not deal with it, and then just go off and have children, and, like, that's going to work.
	I'm incredibly sorry for all that was missing and all that you needed that was not provided.
	that's really, really heartbreaking.
	Is there anything else that you wanted to I mean, a couple of things to mention, but is there anything else that you wanted to say or ask?
	I got a lot of stuff.
	That's probably enough for today.
	That's good.
	How do you feel about the conversation?
	It was interesting.
	It was interesting.
	It brought up I'm just seeing it from a different...
	I'm seeing things differently.
	I've got light on stuff that wasn't there before.
	So, no, it was definitely good.
	It was a good conversation.
	I think that I will make a recommendation that you read about infant and childhood development.
	There's lots of great books out there.
	Lots of great books at the library are on the web as well.
	If you have diabetes, you need to learn a lot about diet, right?
	Blood sugar and all that, right?
	And if you have difficulties in your development as a child, you need to read about this stuff.
	Because I don't think you have a strong...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Oh no, I have read a lot of this stuff and I've listened to a lot of your podcasts.
	I've looked in the back catalogue of your podcasts and I've listened to a lot of people.
	No, no, I appreciate that and I think that I'm fairly reasonable at self-knowledge.
	I'm certainly no therapist and I'm certainly no child development expert or anything like that.
	But I think that you need to read it not as abstract knowledge but as What you didn't get.
	When you read about what babies need, what children need, it's important to read it from the standpoint of what you didn't get.
	Not as an, oh, that's how kids develop or whatever, right?
	Because that will be your temptation because you're obviously intelligent, very analytical, very abstract.
	But there's a visceral body hunger that you did not receive.
	The instruction on how to interact with your fellow bald primates...
	Was not something that was massaged into your skin, right?
	Every culture does it differently, and people do it differently.
	Different classes do it differently.
	Different levels of education do it differently.
	In business, they do it differently than at the church.
	Like, how to interact with other people in a sort of relaxed and enjoyable manner is not something that we're born knowing.
	Because if we were born knowing, then all cultures would kind of look the same, right?
	And it doesn't sound like that was part of your instruction at all.
	And that's something that you can learn.
	But first of all, I think you have to know just how deficient your childhood was in giving you the social abilities and skills necessary to have a successful life or even a life of reasonable levels of connection.
	Right?
	This is why I said you feel like an anthropologist or in your own culture a stranger in a strange land.
	Because there's a whole language that Of interaction that is eye contact, it's physical, it's what to say, how to say it, when to say it.
	Like I remember when I first went into the business world and I first started doing like professional and we went for cocktails with the bosses and stuff like that.
	Like I really didn't know what to say.
	I knew what to say in graduate school.
	I knew what to say in theater school.
	I knew what to say with my friends.
	I knew what to say with lovers.
	But that...
	I mean, I didn't know.
	And so you sort of grit your teeth and you sort of figure it out and you read some books and you sort of learn it all.
	But that's sort of...
	I mean, you feel like that all the time, right?
	That...
	Sorry, what do I feel like all the time?
	You feel...
	Like you don't know what to say or how to have a rhythm of conversation that is self-sustaining and easy?
	Yeah.
	And you understand there's no reason why you would know that, given your upbringing.
	But you can learn it.
	So I would go through the books and list the things wherein your childhood was deficient so you've got a really clear set of standards that were missed for you.
	So that you understand what the deficiencies are, right?
	Because otherwise, if you don't know what was missing from you, it's very easy to feel like you are just missing something.
	And then it's very easy from there to make it about you.
	Like, you're deficient, you're not good at something, you're awkward, you're shy, you're lonely, or whatever, right?
	But if you weren't taught these things, then there's no reason whatsoever why you would know them.
	I don't think I'm an idiot because I don't know how to speak Mandarin, right?
	I just...
	I've never studied it.
	I was never taught it, right?
	Yeah.
	And so if you go through the childhood development stuff and really make a list, oh, I didn't get this, oh, I didn't get this, oh, I didn't get this, oh, my God, I really didn't get that, oh, I got the opposite of that.
	It's not just what wasn't there, what was present that was disruptive.
	It wasn't like your mom didn't talk to you.
	It's not only did she not talk to you, but she put you down when you talk, and not only did she put you down when you were talking, she talked to the skies and said she wished you weren't there.
	This is catastrophic to development, and it doesn't mean it's irrevocable, but I think you need to get a very strong sense of what was missing in your development so that you have something to mourn and something to rectify.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	I mean, I already...
	Sorry, I do have...
	I am sort of getting a mental list of this stuff as I look into this stuff.
	Of what was missing from my childhood, my upbringing.
	Alright, well then when you listen to this show back again, your challenge then, Nathan, is to realize how long it took for you to come up with this stuff when we were talking.
	Yeah.
	And it needs to be more on the tip of your tongue, more available and accessible to you.
	Alright?
	Yeah, I understand.
	Because if you say you know this stuff, but when you're talking with me, it takes you like 20 minutes to come up with it, then it's not there, present yet for you?
	No, well, yeah, and I censor myself.
	I do that a lot.
	Yeah, and again, I fully understand.
	I incredibly sympathize, and there's no reason why you wouldn't censor yourself, because your bond with your mother was weak.
	And where the bond is essential, but the bond is weak, we censor ourselves.
	When our mom has basically said, you know, I could ditch you at any time, I could go somewhere else, and then you're basically dead, then yeah, you're not going to do stuff that's going to upset your mother.
	But that comes at the expense of your self-expression, of your integrity, of your emotions, of anything that is inconvenient to your mother.
	All of that has to be crushed and discarded.
	And you, of course, have the example of your sister who ended up in a much worse place than you in that she's become that way.
	So I just wanted to mention that.
	I think it needs to be better and more emotionally understood what was missing for you rather than, oh, I didn't get that like a checklist.
	But really dwell on that.
	I think that's really important.
	Anyway, I'm so sorry.
	I do have to move on to another caller.
	Yeah, that's all right.
	I really appreciate the conversation.
	Yeah, thank you so much.
	I mean, that's...
	I mean, talk about facing down your fears.
	I mean, you have shyness around conversation, you have a feeling of social awkwardness and isolation, and you talk to the big chatty Connect head on a public show.
	I mean, holy crap, that takes some serious balls.
	You definitely have what it takes to solve these problems, and good for you.
	Thanks.
	Thanks, Stefan.
	You're welcome.
	You're welcome.
	All right, who do we have next?
	All right, Brendan, you're up next.
	Go ahead, Brendan.
	Hello, can you hear me?
	Yeah, can you guys hear me okay?
	Oh, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
	All right.
	Cool, cool.
	All right, well, if things are okay, then yeah, thanks for...
	Sorry, can you guys hear me okay?
	Let me just double check.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	It should be fine.
	So it is okay.
	All right.
	Okay, so yeah, no, if things are good, then obviously thank you, Stefan, for having myself on as a caller and also just for putting this whole thing together.
	I think this is really awesome what you got going on here, what we got going on here just in terms of online community.
	And as for myself, that's something that...
	Just to quickly introduce myself and then to introduce my question.
	My name is Brendan and I know there are people who are actually tuned into this because I shared the link on my Facebook page as well.
	And the name that I go by in terms of internet names and also related to the work I do is Skull Babylon.
	And I have a YouTube channel at youtube.com slash skull babylon.
	And my question that I am kind of putting forth, just to sort of jump off...
	Wait, do you want to mention something?
	Hang on, sorry, sorry to interrupt.
	You put something in the Skype window if you wanted to mention it to Nathan?
	Sorry, what's that?
	You mentioned something in the Skype window if you wanted to mention it to Nathan?
	You typed about contact?
	Like, I do want to, I mean, presuming, yeah, like, I'm obviously presuming that Nathan is still, like, tuned into the show and everything like that.
	Oh, he'll listen.
	He'll listen again.
	But just put out the invite and then keep moving if you don't mind.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Like, the part of the invite is part of explaining what I've been up to in terms of this really interesting global project that I've been helping create over the last few years.
	So my question is, that I'm just sort of putting forth to sort of generate discussion, is how can we, how can anybody help transform the system from within?
	And what I mean by that is how can we sort of create social alchemy to be able to work within a system that a lot of people feel is very constricting and also to be able to create a place where we can practice having conversation and to be able to connect with each other in very synchronistic ways.
	And that's something that, as I mentioned, this project that I'm involved with It's called Paradigm Shift, and the main website for it is Paradigm Shift Central.
	And long story short, it's a global collective of communities all across the world, like Paradigm Shift communities, who are focusing on the creation of physical and digital space to be able to foster conversation, community growth, and the evolution of consciousness.
	And there's a lot of things that I've been up to, and part of the reason why I really wanted to call into the show, Stefan, is because I love to be able to connect with Some very important conversations that have taken place right now.
	And basically, the website itself, through the website, you'll find a lot of things that I've been up to.
	And I'm actually from London, Ontario, so not even...
	You're in Toronto, is that right?
	Yeah, just outside.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, I mean, not even too far away.
	And we actually do have a Paradigm Shift Toronto community as well.
	And...
	Through the website, you'll find a whole bunch of stuff.
	You'll find full-length movies that I've actually put together, and just to give people an understanding of who I am, what I do, and where I am now, I'm technically speaking also in a That I made a few years ago, slightly unrelated to what I'm talking about now.
	But if you want to ask me about that, actually, I would be happy to share it because it is related to Canadian military.
	Let's do this.
	I mean, it sounds like you've got a lot of stuff going on.
	And so it was paradigm shift project.com.
	Is that right?
	ParadigmShiftCentral.com I obviously haven't looked at it, but I would certainly recommend if people want to have a look into that to have a look at it.
	The question I think is a little bit too broad.
	And like in terms of how I think we move the conversation forward, I mean, I've got 2,500 shows about how I think we move the conversation forward and running these shows a couple of times a week.
	So that's how I think we move the conversation forward.
	So, you know, you've put the website in.
	I would say people can go and have a look at it.
	But if it's all right with you, I think I'll move on to the next call.
	And then if people have questions, they can bring it to the show.
	Okay.
	Well, my question, I mean...
	I would like to be able to use the opportunity to just share with people what I've been up to because it is some really exciting techniques.
	No, I'm sorry.
	I appreciate that.
	This is not the show for that.
	This is the show for listening to questions rather than listening to experiences.
	I do apologize.
	No, there's no reason to apologize at all, but that's something that you have to do through Facebook and all that.
	So I will move on to the next caller, but I appreciate you calling in.
	I was going to talk about astral projection, but is that not an option?
	Like, I feel like I'm sort of getting cut off here when I could be contributing.
	Well, but you haven't been contributing.
	What you've been doing is telling me about your website and it's been kind of a plug, right?
	Well, to be honest, and if you just give me a minute here to explain myself, I had emailed the operator's email to begin with proposing what I was putting forward with the question of is this something that we can sort of do on the show?
	So since that, I mean, if we just push that aside, what I would be interested in is just like experience lucid dreaming as an example of a talk that I'm familiar talking about, something that I know a lot of people are also interested in talking about.
	And something that I feel is very vital.
	And this is where I wanted to be able to invite Nathan to specifically get involved and connected with me.
	Because I think, like you said, that was really brave.
	And Nathan, you are fantastic.
	You are awesome for being able to just take those steps and come on to a show and be able to talk about stuff like this.
	Because practicing talking about this stuff is what we need to do.
	Okay, I apologize.
	I will have to move on to the next caller.
	I don't mean to interrupt again, but I do have to run the show according to the format, which is sort of question.
	I appreciate your feedback.
	And again, people are certainly welcome to look out at your website.
	But Mike, if you could move on to the next caller, please.
	Alright, Ben, go ahead.
	You're up next, Ben.
	Hello, Stefan Malmue.
	How are you tonight, my friend?
	I'm well.
	How are you doing, Ben?
	I am doing well.
	So the point of my question here is basically relationship advice, you know, virtue for the young heart here.
	First of all, I just want to thank you for everything you've given the community.
	Especially to me, there's no doubt you've changed my life.
	Thank you very much.
	This is the best show in the world.
	I genuinely believe that.
	I appreciate that you recognize that.
	I didn't put that word in your mouth, but I certainly appreciate your thoughts.
	Thank you so much.
	Absolutely.
	It is the truth.
	I listen to this show.
	I wake up every morning at 6 a.m.
	and work out.
	I listen to this instead of music.
	Excellent.
	It's an N-dimensional workout.
	It does, and you make me laugh, which is really the best part.
	Let me start.
	Let's just delve right into it.
	I'm going to be quick.
	I'm 23 years old, and this is my background.
	So my dad got terminally ill my freshman year of high school and eventually died my senior year summer of high school.
	During this time, I was doing lots of sports, varsity, soccer, wrestling, and track, and I became very ill.
	I got whooping cough and shingles, and I was taking care of my dad.
	I ended up doing a lot of drugs, and I basically became depressed for about nine years.
	Up until the beginning of this semester, I'm a senior.
	At a school which should not be named, getting my psychology and philosophy degree with a minor in special education.
	So in regards to some more stuff, my mother has always held money above my head.
	I've always been paying her back or just giving her money for what she needs, and it's really hurting me in a lot of different ways.
	In fact, I ran out of money and had to ask my grandpa for money and it was hard because I've listened to a lot of your podcasts and I've pushed people away because...
	They're not on the route to virtue.
	They're on the route to selfishness and he won't even tell me how much money he has and it's from my grandma's death and my mother's brother's death.
	He died very young and so basically it's our money and he should tell us how much.
	Anyway, that's besides the point.
	Also, I had emotional abuse from my sister and my mother.
	They blamed me Lots of different things that basically scapegoated me instead of self-reflect, which of course is great for them.
	Denial, whatever.
	You know, it works.
	Let's see here.
	So, let me get to my relationship stuff.
	I went to Israel for 10 days and I met this amazing girl.
	We had just the greatest time.
	And actually, as I'm thinking about this, I'm like cognitively leaping.
	And there's something I just realized.
	I don't really want to say it.
	I'm 23 and she's 19.
	So I can't really expect her to see everything.
	Of course I can't.
	Anyway, so I'll go on.
	I asked her a lot of questions and we just had an amazing time.
	She's so insightful and amazing and takes what I say and just looks at it from a different perspective.
	I got her to start journaling and talking about life and she would just show me her journals and all these different things.
	Anyway, this woman has been in a relationship for four years.
	And she...
	Oh my gosh.
	She's just amazing.
	Wait, sorry.
	She's 19.
	She's been in a relationship for four years?
	Yeah.
	I mean, I don't mean to show off my math skills here, but that's 15 she started, right?
	Yeah.
	Obviously, yeah.
	Alright.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	And of course...
	If she doesn't see that people change, it's inevitable, right?
	She needs to get out of that relationship, at least to take a break, which I tried so hard to help her do, and eventually she did, but then once she did take a break, she became somebody different, somebody different.
	It was not curious anymore, was not centering her beliefs, and she would always expect me to be virtuous and right.
	And I even confronted her about this a couple times, and now we don't talk.
	I haven't talked to her for a month and a half.
	I told her, you know, if you ever want to come back, I'm here, even though I wish I could have the strength to just let her go, which eventually...
	I need to work towards, of course.
	And I do realize this to the full extent.
	I was thinking about what I would tell you today, and as I was going through the logical processes in my head, I sort of realized a bunch of what I'm telling you as well as many of the reasons, of course, why I should let her go.
	A side note, it would be very interesting if You could quiz me on logic and my logic ability.
	I do think I'm astute, but of course, this means nothing after saying that.
	I want to avoid that statement.
	And if you have some sort of test you could give me, that'd be great.
	You can think about it and maybe give it to me later.
	Benny, Benny, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
	What are you talking about?
	I mean, you've given me like 1,500 topics in about eight, seven minutes.
	Yeah.
	So we've got to focus.
	You've got family stuff, history stuff, mom, sister, dad dying, for which I'm incredibly sorry.
	You've got your depression.
	You've got meeting this woman in Israel.
	You've got she's amazing.
	She's been in a relationship for four years.
	You ended up breaking up a relationship with a boyfriend.
	Then she became a different person.
	And you want me to test you on logic?
	When I repeat that back to you, does that seem like quite a lot?
	I don't know how I talk that much in this short amount of time.
	Absolutely, you're 100% correct.
	So, do you have a question?
	Yes.
	I guess, first of all, after saying all that, was there something that stood out to you specifically or maybe the way in which I communicated it?
	Well...
	Would it be a stretch to say that you may, to some degree, have not been listened to very much as a child?
	I don't think it would be too far of a stretch.
	Right.
	Right.
	Because that was kind of like a fire hose, right?
	You know, conversations are kind of like candles.
	You know, you can breathe, but gently, right?
	And you just, you cranked on a jet engine, right?
	And it's not a criticism.
	I hope you understand that.
	I'm just giving you my sort of experience.
	Right.
	There's so much, I can imagine what your racing thought process must be like because of what your conversation is like.
	Not really a conversation, but a monologue, right?
	Right.
	Now, I assume you've listened to this show before, right?
	Yeah, of course.
	It's a good show, and I appreciate that.
	But you, I mean, I hate to laugh, but it is a little funny.
	You're going to listen back to this part of the show, and you will be astounded.
	Right?
	Because it's a call-in show, and the idea, I just said to the last caller, you know, let's have a question, right?
	Right.
	And you heard that, I assume, right?
	And then you come with a lot of Very intense information and perspectives and half scraps of stories at high velocity.
	And I don't know if you're trying to keep my attention or if you're trying to squeeze as much information into as short amount of time as possible in order to somehow extract greater wisdom from me.
	I don't know.
	And the fact that I don't know what you're doing In the conversation is important to know, right?
	Again, it's not a criticism at all, at all.
	In any way, I'm not thinking negatively about it at all.
	But what it means is that you're not very used to people having patience with what it is that you want to say.
	Does that make sense?
	There's an old thing Quincy Jones said.
	He was auditioning some pianist and the pianist's hands was racing up and down, you know, like tarantulas on steroids and cocaine at the same time.
	Just playing this incredibly fast, amazing, complicated piece of music.
	And Quincy Jones was like, hey man, you gotta stop.
	I mean, that's not what we do here.
	I want to know if you have a song, and that song is something you can play with one finger.
	You know, yesterday or whatever.
	That's a song you can...
	And so a conversation, particularly when you're introducing yourself to someone, is a sort of patient and measured thing.
	I mean, you've probably noticed, like, I mean, I spend a lot of time listening and asking questions before I provide any kind of feedback.
	Usually.
	It's funny, you know, because people will still...
	Steph, you should let your listeners talk.
	And it's like, I think this show lets listeners talk more than any other show I've ever heard.
	Because I will ask a lot of questions before providing feedback.
	Do I have my thoughts about it beforehand?
	Well, sure.
	But most people go through their whole lives without being listened to.
	And I really am giving you feedback on listening to you.
	Not, again, in any negative or critical way.
	But it seems to me that you have a hard time finding yourself interesting or worthy of someone's attention because you're asking me to sip from a fire hose.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yeah, completely.
	And, in fact, I've been doing this online dating, and I've been meeting a lot of women, and at first I had this thing that I was...
	Hello?
	Hello?
	I can hear you, Steph.
	It looks like he just dropped off.
	All right.
	Let's move to the next caller and see if he can come back.
	Are you back, Ben?
	Yeah, I'm right here.
	Oh, sorry.
	You were talking about online dating?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	We're losing him again, I think.
	Okay.
	All right, Jerome.
	If you want to go ahead, Jerome.
	Hello, Stefan.
	Hi, Jerome.
	Hi.
	This is a real honor to get to talk to you, and I really agree that I feel like this is the best and most meaningful show around.
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	I'm a little nervous also, so...
	I will try my very best not to be too terrifying.
	Medium.
	Maybe 60% to 63% terror and intimidation.
	Is that a reasonable place to aim for?
	Higher or lower?
	Lower.
	That's a good start.
	61%?
	I don't go below 60%.
	Go ahead.
	Yeah.
	I feel like my question machine is a little broken because I've been trying to isolate exactly how to present my question to you.
	Because I feel like I have a blind spot about why I get so entangled in my romantic relationships and I was in a two-and-a-half-year relationship that ended about five-and-a-half months ago,
	and I still feel really entangled in this relationship, even though my ex-partner wanted to end it.
	I was wondering if maybe you could help shine some light into this blind spot with me.
	Are you giving me the gender-neutral partner for any particular reason?
	For her preference.
	Okay, okay.
	I just wanted to know.
	It doesn't hugely matter.
	I was just curious.
	Okay.
	And what do you mean when you say that you're entangled?
	What does that mean?
	Um...
	Like...
	I feel like I... I'm not, I don't get, I wasn't getting my needs met in the relationship and yet I feel like unable to stand up for myself and walk away from a relationship where I'm not getting what I need and even
	after being broken up with I still am Feeling that same dynamic where...
	The way that you describe your relationship sounds a little combat-y.
	Like you say, I wasn't getting my needs met and I wasn't able to stand up for myself.
	To what?
	To get your needs met?
	Yeah, you can't get your needs met by standing up for yourself.
	I mean, you can, I guess, if you're disputing a cell phone bill or something, but in love, in romantic relationships, you can't get love out of assertive conflict.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yeah.
	And so let me just sort of explain that a little bit, because it's a little confusing for some people.
	So...
	If you go to a restaurant and they give you the wrong meal, I mean, you might be like, okay, fine, I'll just eat it.
	I mean, I'm sometimes that way.
	Like if it's something I'm okay to eat, I hate the idea of food being wasted just because I grew up so dirt poor.
	So sometimes I'll be like, oh, it's fine, whatever.
	I'll tell them just because I want to make sure they get their process right, but I'll eat it or whatever, right?
	But sometimes I'm like, actually, I don't want this, so I'm just going to have to send it back.
	Now, if a restaurant is continually not meeting my needs...
	Like, if they're continually not meeting my needs, then assertiveness will not solve the problem.
	Because I've already been assertive, right?
	So to speak.
	But if the restaurant is just continually bringing me the wrong food, or if the restaurant food is just bad, like I want good food and it's just bad food, and I tell them this is not good food, and they just keep serving the same food, then assertiveness has already been exercised, and Therefore, confrontation or demands or ultimatums or whatever, I just have to go to a different restaurant or stay home, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	You sound like woefully unimpressed with the analogy, which is okay.
	No, I was just reflecting at the same time, so I feel like I was half thinking, half responding.
	Yeah.
	Well, has it ever worked for you?
	I mean, am I wrong?
	I mean, has it ever worked for you that you continue to...
	Like, any relationship that you continue to have to be assertive in doesn't work, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, I've had the experience where I feel like I'm – I mean – You know, this is a show that you've got to snap up the gaps a little bit here, right?
	You could drive trucks through your gaps, right?
	I need you to be a little bit thinking livelier in the conversation because if you need time to mull over, we can chat another time, but you can't be doing all your mulling while we're on the air.
	Okay.
	I mean, I'm going to have to be assertive about my needs here.
	I apologize for that.
	Look, I'm demonstrating.
	Okay.
	I need you to speak faster.
	Go ahead.
	Okay.
	Well, could you ask me again?
	Because I feel like...
	Well, has it ever worked where you're really assertive in a relationship and you keep being assertive and keep being assertive and then you end up getting just what you want and it stays that way?
	No.
	Although I feel like I've tried it and just felt very powerless and bad about myself when I've tried that and just kept trying and not just...
	Yeah, because it doesn't work.
	Yeah, because it doesn't work.
	If the system itself is broken, assertiveness doesn't matter.
	Right?
	So, like, if you are in Soviet Russia and the bread is always late, getting angry at the shopkeeper, like, the whole system is broken.
	Assertiveness only doesn't matter, right?
	You know, bad healthcare in Canada, the whole fucking system is broken, right?
	No point me yelling at a doctor.
	It's the whole system, right?
	Right?
	Right.
	So, I guess my question is, like, how were you raised that this seems like a viable path to you or seems like something useful to you?
	So how did assertiveness work when you were a child?
	Um...
	How did assert...
	I don't understand how that was...
	With your family?
	I mean...
	So when you wanted something with your family and you were a child and you were negotiating with your parents, how did it work?
	Well, I mean, with my father, I wasn't assertive.
	With my mother, I would ask for things.
	I guess I felt assertive if I really wanted a certain thing.
	I don't feel like I could be assertive to ask to have conversations that really mattered to me.
	Yeah, I mean, that doesn't usually really work.
	You can't be assertive and get intimacy out of it.
	Yeah.
	You know, like, it's really important to me that we have important conversations, so let's have important conversations.
	That doesn't really work, right?
	People are either interested in important conversations or they're avoiding them usually for reasons of guilt, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, the antonym of depth is bad conscience, right?
	That's the opposite.
	All people of a good conscience are comfortable with depth and curious about depth.
	All people with a bad conscience recoil from depth.
	Because it leads them down to their personal hell of guilt, shame, and self-attack, right?
	Yeah, I mean, I can see that, you know, how my mom is very uncomfortable whenever I ask her questions about, you know, her childhood or, you know, difficult experiences from my childhood.
	Yeah, often shoplifters are very uncomfortable when someone stops them and wants to check their bags, right?
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	Okay, so you said that you weren't assertive with your father.
	Why was that?
	Um...
	I mean, I feel emotional when I think about it, just that I felt afraid.
	I mean, I think I felt afraid of him.
	Why?
	Um, well, I mean, he had a temper, uh, Also, I mean, his temper could also just be very critical.
	I mean, I just felt like I got attacked for being sensitive a lot of times.
	You know, my parents got divorced when I was six.
	So, you know, there's that experience of him leaving.
	And then when I was 12...
	He, you know, I was splitting time between my parents up between 6 and 12.
	And when I was 12, my father moved away and stopped having contact with us.
	Why did your parents divorce?
	I...
	Well, part of it was my father was physically aggressive towards my mother.
	Aggressive is not the right word.
	Assaultive.
	Assaulting.
	He was violent, he was physically abusive, and he assaulted her.
	Is that what you're trying to say?
	Yeah, I don't remember.
	Yeah, I've had my mom tell me a little bit about it.
	it's hard to get a straight story from the mother.
	And they were...
	Yeah, I don't know why they were not getting along.
	I feel like...
	Right?
	Didn't you say he physically assaulted her?
	Well, beyond just...
	Well...
	What do you mean beyond?
	Yes.
	I mean, if you get physically assaulted by someone, it's pretty hard to get along with them, wouldn't you say?
	Yes.
	I would say that.
	You don't brush that off, right?
	You don't...
	Yeah.
	I feel like I kind of just took on a little bit of My mother's kind of rationalization.
	Because my mother, even though she, you know, took a...
	Well, what I think actually really happened was my father said that he wanted to split up with my mother.
	And that really, even though there's, you know, my father is physically assaulting my mother, my mother got really threatened that my father wanted to leave.
	And she...
	I got a temporary restraining order against him.
	And yet, despite that, for the next 10 years of my life, she wanted to get back together with my father.
	So, you know, this is the answer to your first question.
	Right.
	The first question that you came to me with was, why do I break up and stay involved?
	Right?
	Right?
	Yeah.
	And what did your mother do?
	She got divorced and she stayed involved.
	Yeah.
	And it's completely obvious from the outside and completely invisible from the inside, right?
	Yeah, I mean, I've even thought about that and it's just, it's hard to move past the intellectual connection.
	Oh, you're moving.
	I can hear it in your voice.
	You're moving past it right now, aren't you?
	Yeah.
	Anybody here?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	I mean, I'm crying.
	I guess I don't...
	I don't really feel sad exactly, though.
	It's just...
	It's like a connection thing, right?
	Overwhelmed.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I feel overwhelmed.
	It's not exactly a feeling.
	The women that you get involved with...
	No, no, let me ask another question first.
	Was your father physically...
	abusive towards you?
	I only have one memory of him hitting me, but maybe there's more because I felt like I was quite afraid of him.
	Did you see him hitting your mother?
	I imagine I was there because, you know, it happened at home and...
	But I don't remember it.
	Why did your mother want to get back together with him?
	I mean, it's just this incredible, like, double think that I would experience with my mother, where she would say he's a great guy and yet also seem to think he's a terrible person at the same time.
	So I don't know why she would want to.
	Did you, sorry, you said from the age of 6 to 12, you would split time with him?
	You'd be there one week or half the week?
	On the weekends.
	I would spend time with my father and then during the summer and some holidays.
	And did you want to do that?
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean, that's not what I wanted.
	I wanted my parents to be together.
	But...
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Um, so.
	He had a...
	Just started this relationship with a Japanese woman.
	And...
	I heard later, after my father got back into contact with me, that an insane story about how in Japanese culture divorced parents don't split their kids and kids just spend all their time with one parent and somehow...
	I don't know, I don't understand how he could have made that decision.
	It just seems insane to me.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Right.
	Well, I mean, it sounds like you've had some pretty bad modeling of relationships as a child.
	That's where I would look as to why you would have these kinds of...
	Here, I'm telling you not to have any pauses.
	I have a big one.
	But I would look into your childhood modeling about what relationships are.
	If your dad was physically violent to the point where your mom had to get a restraining order, it's hard to particularly understand why you would be unsupervised with him after that.
	If your father was that violent, it's hard to understand why your mother would want to get back together with him.
	It's hard to understand why he would just vanish from your life.
	This is all pretty shitty stuff.
	Like, really shitty stuff.
	You got divorced, a violent father, you might have witnessed abuse against your mother, you were hit by your father at least once, and you didn't want the divorce, but it happened, and you sometimes, I'm sure, didn't want to see your dad, but it happened anyway.
	You didn't want your dad to vanish then, but it happened anyway.
	So, as far as powerlessness, well...
	You had people who weren't taking your needs into account as first and foremost.
	Saying, how can we structure this child's life so that he gets his needs met?
	Putting the child first and foremost, right?
	I don't know.
	Maybe that includes a divorce.
	I don't know.
	I'm not an expert in that or just about anything.
	But it sure as hell seems like your needs were not put first and foremost.
	That other people's needs...
	Like you said, well, it's hard to get a straight story out of my mother.
	Well, that's really selfish.
	You need a goddamn straight story.
	It's your family, it's your history, your fucking childhood.
	You need a straight story.
	And people who fudge and bypass and don't give you the straight story about your history are denying you something very essential for their own selfish reasons.
	You have a right to the truth about your goddamn childhood.
	It seems weird to even have to say that.
	Of course you have a right to the truth about your childhood.
	And it is very destructive for people to Avoid the reality of what you need to know.
	And so, and I don't know, assertiveness is very hard to get.
	If people don't voluntarily offer you up things about which you can barely remember, then who's to say?
	If you corner them and push them, if they'll just make something up or tell you another lie and throw you off in another direction, I don't know, right?
	You know, like...
	I used to think, well, I'd love to know what my mom's childhood was really like, but the reality is I'll never know what my mom's childhood was because she can't tell the truth about it.
	I'll never know what her childhood was really like.
	I know it was pretty terrible, but I'll never know what it was really like.
	I'll never know the facts because she won't tell them.
	She can't tell them.
	I mean, who knows?
	It doesn't really matter either way.
	It's the same result.
	Yeah.
	So, you know, like you always want to say, oh, I'll go back to my high school reunion.
	I'm really curious how this person turned out, right?
	But you'll probably never know.
	I mean, you may know a few facts.
	Maybe they gained 20 pounds or maybe they're divorced or whatever, but you won't really know how they turned out because so few people tell the truth about their lives that we're all sailing through a fog, half unseen shapes of distortion and falsehoods.
	But you can see what happened in your family through its effects on you as an adult.
	And you had a huge amount of very dysfunctional disruptions and bad patterns put forward by your parents.
	And I'm incredibly sorry for that, but that's stuff that needs to be understood.
	You guys went far off course, way off course, for what a childhood and a family situation should be like.
	And, I mean, to have a six-year-old process of divorce is...
	I mean, gosh, talk about a wrecking ball through your life, right?
	So, I'm really sorry for all of that, but I, for one, would say, you know, if you're not in a relationship right now, you know, get some therapy, do some self-work, figure out these patterns.
	Otherwise, the grave danger is, as you get older, you might end up either getting married or having a child with someone who's entirely the wrong person, and then the pattern will probably repeat.
	So, before you procreate, you know, self-explore.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I am dedicated to that.
	Yeah.
	Good for you.
	Good for you.
	Now, and I'm sorry that you get the short end of the stick because it's late.
	It's 1.21 a.m.
	We've gone a whole next day with the show, but I'm really glad you called in.
	If what I've said is deeply unsatisfying to you because of the slight, well, somewhat shortness of the call, please feel free to call back in and we'll talk further.
	But I am not able to give the kind of quality attention that I want to just because I got up fairly early this morning kind of tired.
	But I really do appreciate you calling in, and I'm incredibly sorry for all these disruptions that happened to you as a kid.
	That's not at all how it should have gone.
	Thank you, Stefan.
	You're very welcome.
	You're very welcome.
	And again, if this is truncated, my God, if I'm actually coming from a truncated and limited perspective again and again, then please feel free to call back in.
	And thanks everyone so much if you'd like to help out the show.
	Hugely, hugely appreciated.
	FDRURL.com.
	Thanks to Redmond for having me come out to speak at U of T last week.
	I'm sure that will be online soon.
	Thanks, Mike, for staying up late.
	I know he likes to get in bed with warm milk at about 8.30 at night after a rousing rendition of the show Murder, She Wrote.
	So it's wonderful that he stayed up a little bit later.
	And have such a great week.
	Well, not even a great week.
	I guess I'll be talking to you on Wednesday night.

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