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Oct. 23, 2013 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:21:33
2514 People Are Their Ideas - Wednesday Call In Show October 23rd, 2013
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Alright, for those of you who are listening to audio, you're missing something I have put on the kind of shirt that I think can fairly be stated to defy all video compression algorithms.
As long as I keep moving, basically I'm sending bitmap after bitmap over to you and this video size will be truly gargantuan.
It's not a shirt I break out often, but it definitely is one of the louder ones.
Tune into the video.
It's a long time to watch a Sunday show, or I guess in this case a Wednesday show on a video, but I'd recommend it because I think eye contact and body language can be important, and I will bust a few moves.
And of course, when I was younger, busting a few moves meant some really great dance moves.
Now that I'm in my late 40s, busting moves means actually physically breaking something on myself for the sake of disco perfection.
So, hope you're having a great week, everybody.
It is the 23rd of October.
2013, this is the Wednesday night call-in show.
And at the rate we've been growing lately, we're going to have nine call-in shows a day.
Because sleep is overrated.
Sleep is for the weak and the old.
So, we have a whole bunch of callers today.
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All right, let's move on with the show.
Mike, what have we got?
Who have we got?
How are they coming?
All right, Whitney, go ahead.
Whitney.
Hello.
Hello.
Can I tell you something, Whitney?
You could do some fantastic things to help boost the ratings of the show, if you wouldn't mind.
Okay.
If you did, in fact, pretend to be Whitney Houston calling from the afterlife, I have a feeling that would be what they call in the business a breakthrough show.
I mean, I'd really rather not because that's like the number one joke of my life.
Oh, do you get a lot of Whitney Houston jokes?
Constantly.
It's not even spelled the same.
I don't understand.
Yeah.
I mean, it's not that uncommon a first name.
It's not like your first name is like Boris Karloff or something like that.
Anyway.
Welcome to the show, Whitney.
It's just strange.
Okay, thanks.
I kind of had two major topics that I kind of wanted to talk about.
The first one, I think I want to start the first one just because I want your advice on something beforehand.
Yeah.
Whenever you debate or argue, whatever you're doing, with other people about the importance of respect, how exactly Can I, I don't know, be better at arguing these things?
Because I always get someone telling me that you have to respect everyone's beliefs.
And I'm always like, well, no, you don't.
You don't have to respect a belief.
You can respect the person, but you don't have to respect a belief.
And people just don't seem to understand that.
And I'm kind of just wondering if there's anything I can do to make this more prevalent, more obvious to these people.
That's a great point and a great question.
I respect it.
And I would say...
It's funny, you know, because when people say you have to respect other people or you have to...
If they say you owe something to a collective, I can almost certainly guarantee you that they're talking about themselves.
Right?
So when people say...
Obey the law.
What they mean is obey the lawyers.
When people say obey the government, they mean obey the politicians.
When people say God needs you to give, they mean to me.
Right?
So whenever you have an abstract put forward as some sort of aggregation, some sort of conceptual grouping, and then it is described or it is ascribed, sorry, the beliefs that would be appropriate or the characteristics appropriate to a person It's the philosophical equivalent of calling into a psychology show and saying, my friend has a problem.
I mean, you know, my friend has a problem in that, you know, he has erectile dysfunction unless he thinks about emperor penguins with a Margaret Thatcher wig.
My friend has a very specific...
And people, everybody, it's an old joke, right?
Everybody knows when you say my friend has a problem, you're most likely talking about yourself.
And when people say, you need to respect other people's beliefs, what they mean is...
I want you to respect my beliefs.
Now, the moment someone tells you to respect something, what do you know immediately?
I don't know anything, actually.
I just want me to respect something for the sake of it.
Right, okay, so if I tell you that...
I'm a really good philosopher and you should just respect what I say and believe what I tell you.
What I'm doing is I'm giving you a conclusion rather than a methodology, which is really the opposite of philosophy.
Philosophy, like science, is all about the methodology.
The conclusions are sort of irrelevant.
The methodology is everything.
And so when somebody says, you need to respect my beliefs or you need to respect other people's beliefs, what they're saying is that if I don't tell you to respect other people's beliefs, it will never occur to you to respect those people's beliefs.
Because if somebody has beliefs or perspectives that are kind of innately respect-worthy, then you'll just respect them.
Okay, let me put it another way.
If I say, Whitney...
I've got a friend, he's coming over for dinner, and I need you to pretend that he's really tall.
What do you know about him, first and foremost?
That he's probably really short.
Exactly.
So if I tell you you need to treat someone as if they're this way, you kind of know that they're the opposite, right?
Right.
I need you to pretend that my friend Brad Pitt is really sexy.
I mean, that could kind of be a joke, right?
Because, you know, second to me.
Anyway, so the moment that somebody says you owe respect to somebody, you give them respect, whether or not they deserve it, you know that they don't deserve it.
You know that whatever they're doing is the opposite of what respect is.
So the question would be, if somebody says you need to respect people's beliefs, Okay, you can say, well, should I respect the beliefs of the KKK? Should I respect the beliefs of a Nazi?
Should I respect the beliefs of Charles Manson or Ted Kaczynski or Hitler or whatever, right?
And what would the person say?
I've actually, I do that.
And that's kind of my biggest problem because they like to dismiss it.
They say, well, that doesn't count.
Or they just completely ignore it.
That doesn't count.
Right.
They ignore it and move on to the next thing.
Like, those are my options whenever I'm arguing with these people.
And it's just, I don't know how to, like, fix this.
Like, I don't know how to go about this.
Once they have decided that those are easily dismissible.
Do you know, it's interesting, I could totally win Wimbledon if all the shots I missed didn't count.
You know, if I do a math test and I get half the answers right, I can get 100%.
If just, if the answers I get wrong don't count.
See, if somebody has the magic wand called this doesn't count, then philosophically the Latin phrase that's sort of technically correct is they're batshit crazy.
Yeah.
Because if you have, look, if somebody says you need to respect other people's beliefs, they're making universal.
A universal statement.
And then the moment you come up with something that challenges that belief and they say, well, that doesn't count.
Then they're saying, here's a universal statement, and anything which contradicts it doesn't count.
Wait, why does that seem so familiar, Mike?
No, I don't know.
It does.
Something recently, where somebody claimed a universal, I came up with counterexamples, but they didn't count.
No...
Anyway, I can't remember.
Anyway, so the moment someone claims a universal and then says to any exception to that universal, that doesn't count.
I mean, they're just insane.
They have no business talking about ideas at all.
I mean, you can point that out to them, but if they say, well, you're pointing out that me saying this doesn't count is insane, doesn't count.
It's like, okay, well, then I can't really have a conversation with you because you can just wave away.
Anything that I say that goes against your argument as something which doesn't count.
You can't do that in philosophy, right?
I mean, imagine that in science, right?
Imagine that.
All balloons...
No, see, you come up with science and say, everything that is around that has mass falls down, and someone comes in with a helium balloon.
That doesn't count.
Someone comes in with soap bubbles.
They don't count either.
Clouds.
They don't count either.
But it's still a universal.
It's like if it's a universal, everything has to count.
If stuff doesn't count, it's not a universal.
So the moment someone breaks their own rules, they're no longer rules, right?
Right.
Okay.
So, I guess at that point in an argument or debate, it would be okay to basically leave it?
Sorry, I would also say, well, and I would also ask, does not respect have to be earned?
Well, and that's another thing.
People my age, at least, I'm 22, and people my age like to say that respect is an obligation, and I am very anti that respect.
Like, way of thinking.
Like, of course it's not an obligation.
That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.
But a lot of people like to say that.
And it's just, I don't know what to do with that.
Because, like, I'll try to tell them why it's not an obligation and why you have to earn respect.
Like, you have to earn trust.
Like, they just don't seem to, like, put these things together.
Well, and of course they will not earn the trust and respect of any sane and rational human being by holding to those perspectives.
So I have another question for you.
Before you get to your second question, Whitney, oh Whitney, why are these people in your life again?
You know, it's a really good question.
I'd like to throw in a good one every now and then.
No, one of these people was actually, she was my best friend and like for like all throughout high school and everything and it was actually just recently that she decided to jump in on this argument I was having with someone online actually and That's whenever she started throwing the word respect around and I was like, I can't really talk to you anymore.
Like, I kind of just made that decision.
Like, I don't know if we can really remain friends at this point.
And I just kind of let her fall to the wayside.
Like, every now and then I'll send her a text or, like, a comment on Facebook or something.
But other than that, like, we don't really talk much anymore.
I'm sorry to hear that.
And I'm...
It can be helpful to try and ask people why they have those particular perspectives.
But I'll tell you this.
I mean, you're 22, so let me be really annoying and tell you something from experience.
And I do apologize for that.
But, you know, when I was younger, I sort of believed that people had...
These personalities.
And then the ideas that they had were kind of stuck on top of these personalities.
Like if you ever had a really good cake and maybe the icing isn't that great or whatever, then you take the icing off and the cake is still pretty good, right?
I mean, it's still pretty tasty.
And I thought that people had these personalities and then they had these ideas like hats or they were like accessories or something like that.
And they weren't unimportant.
But they weren't really the person.
Oh, but I'll tell you, the wisdom, and some of it gruesomely acquired over the last, what has it been, 30 years since I was 17?
Oh!
I'm back.
Is that people are their ideas.
Like I had a friend when I was, I had a lot of friends who were very funny and very cynical, and they're really dark kind of humor, but really funny, but very cynical.
And I thought they were kind of like, The people that they were with a little cynicism thrown in.
Like, you know, I take my coffee with one cream, but anyone who drinks it is still going to know that it's coffee.
So I sort of thought, well, people will like coffee, and you can add maybe a little sugar or a little cream or whatever it is.
But it's still the person just with a little bit of cynicism.
Or that person with a little bit of irrationality.
Or that person with a little bit of patriotism.
Or that person with a little bit of whatever.
But the reality is, as I sort of watched people grow up, and you really do get a chance to see how ideas play out when you live for a while, I began to realize that people are their ideas.
That what they believe about the world, what they believe about reality, what they believe about virtue, what they proselytize and throw out into the world, that is, in fact, who they are.
There's really no way around it.
So, if you have someone who says, you owe me respect, they've automatically said, I'm not going to work for respect.
You know, like, if I want $1,000, I go out and I work until I get $1,000.
If somebody owes me $1,000, I don't have to go and get a job to get it, because they just owe it to me.
And that is such a distorted and destructive and nihilistic and horrendous viewpoint to have.
That this isn't like a nice friend with a couple of bad beliefs.
You know, like you got a great wardrobe with a couple of questionable tops in it.
I mean, this is the person.
And the longer they live, the more that will become evident.
So I just really wanted to point that out.
I can sort of trace back.
This is one of the reasons I recognize how much power philosophy and ideas have.
I can trace back where people are in their life from all the stuff they were talking about when they were teenagers.
And it's a really direct, straight, clear line.
And so I just wanted to point that out.
I mean, I still think it's worth it in the future.
You know, you can be curious about why people believe what they believe.
But if they hang on to really crazy stuff...
They are crazy.
They're not like sane with a dash of crazy.
They are crazy.
And they're going to keep getting more crazy until they start thinking better.
So I just wanted to sort of point that out.
No, and I've actually like, I've come to realize that about a lot of people that were in my life that haven't been for quite a while.
Like, I can, like, if I even just go to their, like, Facebook page now, I'm like, oh, you're the exact same person you used to be, and you're always going to be that way, because you have these crazy ideas about, like, life and philosophy and politics, whatever, but you're just, you're insane, and that's why we're not friends anymore.
Like, that's exactly what I've gone through, like, just within the past couple of years, I've been able to just do that.
And what threw you down this crazy, well, this path towards sanity and exposition of crazy?
What started you down this road?
What did you do?
Like, I don't really...
This can actually kind of go into my second topic, actually, because it makes a lot of...
You'll understand, I think, the connection.
I have...
Ever since I was 13, I had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder.
And I had been, up until this year, like, after my 22nd birthday, I had been on, like, hundreds of different drugs.
Like, countless.
Like, I have no idea.
But within that, like, time, just within those almost 10 years...
I've come across like many other people who either claim to have been diagnosed or like they'll self-diagnose and they'll self-medicate and all that stuff and it's like I kind of finally came out of my stupor that I feel like I had been in and I kind of I just kind of started seeing people for who they were after I came out of this haze of pharmaceuticals, basically.
And it's just been like, I can't really...
I can't deal with people like that anymore.
I just can't.
I physically, mentally, emotionally just cannot do it.
So I've just kind of been able to look at people in a completely different light while I... I guess not completely different but the light that they're supposed to be seen in I guess would be a way to say it but I've been seeing people for who they are and it's just like you're not a good person there's no I can't rationalize anything with you like we're kind of just done being around each other I'm really really sorry to hear about those pharmaceuticals I'm really really sorry to hear about that that's a
I think that's a tragic passage in human history that hopefully is not going to last a huge amount longer, but I'm incredibly sorry you got caught up in this medication nation.
Can I make what they call in philosophy a wag, a wild-ass guess?
Can I guess that your home life was somewhat chaotic and problematic leading up to the age of 13 and beyond?
Yeah, I think that would be a fair assumption.
Like, well, okay, whenever I was 13, I didn't actually know about the most problematic of problematic things, but whenever I was 11, my dad...
Left for like the last time like he got remarried and whatever and for me that was a good thing because it was really horrible with him living in my house and that was just awful but it was around it was we kind of stopped talking by the time I was 13 probably and I A fake attempted suicide, which is a horrible thing to say and do.
But I did.
It was just for attention and I knew that I wasn't actually going to die.
I can fully admit that at this point.
And...
I'm not sure that I would say that it was just for attention.
My daughter wants attention and she says, hey dad.
No, I promise.
It was to express an inner agony and to try and make your agony visible to other people, I would imagine.
Well...
Yeah, but for...
I still say that that's attention.
Because it's the wrong...
It's the different kind of attention that I wasn't necessarily getting.
Because pretty much everything that was like...
That I would scream and cry about all the time.
It was just like, oh, you know, she's a preteen.
She's hormonal.
She just started puberty.
You know, all that stuff, you know.
So it was just kind of...
It was helpful to have, like, a major crisis, I guess.
But anyway, moving on from that.
So that happened.
And then...
I didn't talk to my dad for a while after that because he told me that no daughter of his is going to try to kill herself because that's a normal thing to say to a 13 year old.
And then I found out whenever I was 16 that he's not actually my biological father.
And he found that out whenever I was 12.
And my mom has known since before I was born.
Wow.
Yeah, it's kind of a big mess.
But whenever I found that out...
Was it an affair?
No.
Okay.
So my mom was going through a divorce whenever she met my dad.
And they, I guess, had a one-night stand or whatever.
And then she actually had a tiny bit of an affair with a married man who had a family.
And she told the married man that she was pregnant because it was his.
And she told him that.
But it was just enough within the time frame that she could go back to my dad and say, Hey, I'm pregnant.
It's yours.
And he believed her.
And that was whatever.
That's who I grew up with.
And it was the worst.
I wish I didn't have him in my life ever because that was the absolute worst decision she could have possibly made for me.
And why?
Why was it such a bad decision?
He was a...
Horrible person, just generally speaking, but he was an alcoholic and he was abusive physically and emotionally.
I would say that the two were actually equal as far as emotionally and physically go.
I got spanked every day probably until I was...
Every day?
Oh yeah, every day until I was like...
Nine when my grandpa died.
I think after my grandpa died, which was his dad.
I think he kind of decided to stop being so physical.
I don't know.
But yeah, like every day until I was nine.
What was the excuse?
I mean, what was the cover story?
I mean, what were you told you were being spanked for?
I wouldn't clean my room or I lied about something.
That was it.
Wow.
Those two things.
I mean, that's just a continual series of physical assaults.
I mean, I'm in tears.
I'm so sorry.
That's just unbelievably hellish.
Yeah, it was.
And then the emotional...
I mean I'm sure it's not that hard to figure out what that could have been but it was mostly like he lied and he broke promises and he was just really really manipulative like whenever he left my mom finally well whenever she kicked him out finally I guess would be the right way to put it I actually was supposed to have the option of either living with him or her but and I actually originally chose to live with him Because he was that
manipulative.
Like, I was able to just, like, put aside, like, all reason as an 11-, 12-year-old.
But, yeah.
I was, like, so manipulated into believing that he was who I should be living with.
Did your mother know that you were being hit every day?
Yeah.
She knew.
And what was her perspective on that?
I honestly don't know, but she never did.
She never hit me.
Ever.
And she was not emotionally abusive or anything.
She was just an enabler.
She just let it happen.
Well, she did more than let it happen because she invited this man into your life.
Oh my god, I know.
Yeah.
Yeah, you know.
Yeah.
But I have like...
Like, now I have, like, a really...
Is this...
I don't know if this is crazy or not, to be honest.
Because I have this really, really awesome relationship with my mom now.
But I didn't have that before.
But I do now, as of, like, the past five years, maybe.
And, like...
The point that I wanted to get to...
Was that I think it's probably necessary for me to know who my biological dad is, and she knows who it is, but she won't tell me.
And I don't know what to do about that, basically.
Because, like, I have this great relationship with her, but she refuses to out him.
And if I bring it up, which I used to do all the time, I used to bring it up, like, every day.
But it changes the whole dynamic.
What's your definition of a great relationship?
Well, like, I can talk to her about pretty much anything.
And we're really civil, like, all the time.
And, like, I'm constantly missing her.
Like, I just, I love my mom.
I haven't seen her in, like, a year now.
Well, like, half a year.
Because I live in another state.
But, like, she's absolutely great.
It's just, like, we have this unspoken agreement that we will not talk about this one thing.
And it's just really frustrating.
Do you really think it's just one thing that you can't talk about?
Yeah.
No, you've already told me.
Sorry to be blunt, but you've already told me that there's another topic you can't talk about.
Which is?
I asked you, what did your mother think?
Of you being hit every day by the man she invited into your life and kept in your life and you said, I don't know.
Well, I've never asked.
I'm sure I could.
Honestly.
But...
Would you not think that that's an important question?
I don't know.
Like, I don't know if she knows...
She invited in and permitted repetitive physical and emotional assaults upon you.
I know.
And I'm not trying to cast a shadow between you and your mom.
Maybe there's something I don't understand.
Maybe she's acknowledged and atoned and begged your forgiveness and gone to therapy and all that kind of stuff.
But it seems to me that none of that has happened because you don't know what her perspective is on that.
If I bring a dog into the house that bites my daughter, I'm responsible.
And if I keep a dog in the house that keeps biting my daughter, I'm still responsible, even more responsible.
Right.
So I think, obviously, the biological father thing, I think, is important.
I mean, it's important.
It's important for a number of reasons.
It's important for medical reasons.
If you can find this man and you can get a medical history, that gives you an important insight into what might happen to you over the years.
But I think a more pressing topic is how did I end up being hit every day?
How did I end up being abused?
You were my mom.
You're supposed to take care of me.
You're supposed to protect me.
And not only did you fail to protect me, but you brought in and maintained this man in my life who was incredibly abusive.
Who made the decision to put you on the meds?
Um...
Well, okay, so I guess the doctors at the behavioral mental health facility, they decided to do that, but it was with my mom's permission.
Who made the decision to have you evaluated?
I guess that would have been my mom.
You don't know?
Well, just the way that it went about was because, like, I was just taken to the emergency room and they put me...
Oh, because of the suicide attempt?
Yeah, and they put me in the mental health facility.
So then I've basically just been medicated ever since.
But I guess they would have had to do that with my mom's permission.
So it would have been her.
Did your mother and your stepfather's relationship, you said that he left for the last time.
I think you said you were 11.
So beforehand there have been lots of make-ups and break-ups.
He had been in and out of the house at least once a year up until then.
There was actually one of...
There was one point where...
He, like, left, but he kind of kidnapped me in the process.
Like, he took me with him, but he was going to...
He didn't have anywhere to go, so he just went to my grandparents' house.
And we stayed there, and then he spent the night in jail because my mom called the cops on him.
And you'd think that would have been her final straw, but it was not.
He didn't actually leave for the last time, probably until...
It would have been about four years later because that was whenever my grandpa was still alive.
So yeah, it would have been like four years later is whenever he finally left for the last time.
Right.
And did your mother feel or does she ever said that the instability, the violence, the kidnapping, the assaults, the emotional abuse...
Has she ever said that that may have contributed to some mental instability or some challenges on your part?
No, she doesn't really know anything about mental problems, actually.
She just kind of goes with whatever doctors, I guess, have told her because she had depression.
No, no.
Sorry.
Sorry to interrupt.
Sorry to interrupt.
That's not...
I'm not asking if she's a psychiatrist.
What I'm asking is, does she think that the instability and violence that you experience for nine years straight, does she think that that may have had a negative effect on your emotional...
And spiritual and intellectual development.
In other words, does she have the first goddamn clue about parenting?
I would hope so.
I have three older sisters.
Let me ask it another way.
Does your mother think that she was a good mother?
Probably.
You don't know?
No, I don't.
Okay.
Under what standard would you think that your mother would think she was a good sister?
I mean, you understand this is why you have people in your life who demand respect who haven't earned it, right?
Yep.
Okay.
So under what standard or theory would your mother think that she was a good mother?
Um, I don't know.
Because she was mostly a stay-at-home mom for pretty much my whole life.
Younger life, so I'm pretty sure that would give her her own little mark.
But other than that, I don't know.
At what age do you remember being hit every day?
What age do I remember being hit every day?
Yeah, when did it start, do you know?
No, I have no idea.
I'm sure it was really young.
I'm sure it was before I was in kindergarten, so before I was five.
As far back as you can remember, basically, right?
Yeah.
Most people who hit older children also hit younger children, and they hit toddlers, and they will even hit babies, some of them.
So your mother, as a stay-at-home mom, had a man around who was hitting you as a toddler, most likely, right?
Yeah.
And what was her childhood like?
She was brought up in a strict Catholic household.
She's never really said whether or not she was like hit as a child or not, but I wouldn't doubt it.
Well, I know that's not the topic you called in for, but I'll just touch on it.
And you can throw it out the window of a moving car if you find it to be Useless, but I'm afraid, Whitney, that there's a lot that you can't discuss and don't discuss with your mother.
And I think there's a kind of safe topic, believe it or not, called your biological father.
But I think that there's a lot more to talk about than that, and a lot more pressing and important things to talk about than that.
Your mother was having concurrent or at least proximate affairs with With two men while she was going through a divorce, right?
Mm-hmm.
She lied to a man about your paternity.
Nothing to do with you, of course.
You're entirely blameless and innocent in all of that.
But that's very disturbed, right?
Well, yeah.
And I... Yeah.
It's a great evil...
To pass off another man's child as a man's child.
It's a form of economic and emotional rape, except it just goes on and on, right?
So your mother is capable of extremely bad judgment, of grand deception, of fraud, and of Bringing an abusive man into her daughters, I guess plural, if you say you have three sisters' lives, and allowing the abuse to continue, did your parents fight a lot in front of the children?
Not, like, directly in front of us, but their room was in the basement, and all of our rooms were right on top of theirs, so we could hear everything.
So you heard lots of fights and screamings.
Was there any physical violence between your parents?
No.
None.
Okay.
So your dad wouldn't hit adults, just children?
Yeah, and I've actually talked to his sister, my aunt.
I've talked to her about that before, and she said that that's how they were brought up.
You never hit a woman, but you can spank a child.
Sure.
Yeah.
Sure.
Did your father have a computer?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that's interesting.
Because I would imagine that he didn't have a computer when he was growing up.
Not when he was growing up.
Oh, so he was willing to upgrade his technology, but not his parenting.
I know where you're going, yes.
That's exactly what he could.
Oh, I think I've already gone there and come back.
Right?
Yeah.
I think, I mean, this is, I can tell you what I would do in your shoes.
First I'd say, ow these are too small and take them off.
The second thing that I would do if I were in your shoes, Whitney, is I think that you need to have some honest talks with your mom about what happened when you were a child.
This is beyond terrible.
It is incredibly selfish and destructive to pass a man off as your father and you off as that man's child when she knew it was a lie.
It's incredibly selfish and destructive.
She was 100% responsible for keeping you safe as a child.
Let me repeat that.
She was 100% responsible for keeping you safe as a child.
And she failed completely in that task.
If a stranger hits my daughter, I'm 100% responsible for that.
If then that stranger hits my daughter every day, I am no longer an innocent bystander.
I am complicit.
I am a participant.
If I put my daughter repeatedly into situations where she is harmed, I am an abuser, even if I never lay a finger on her.
Do you understand?
because you're dividing your parents it seems like into the bad parent and the good parent Not necessarily.
Yes, you are, because you're saying my dad was terrible, but I have a great relationship with my mom.
But I used to not.
That's the thing, though.
My mom and I used to basically be at each other's throats constantly about everything.
I understand that, but the reason why you're having a better relationship with your mom is because you're not talking about things that will upset your mom.
That's true.
Okay, I get it.
So you put yourself in a little box to conform to other people's preferences.
Sure, you can have a great relationship.
To use an extreme example, if I'm willing to be anti-Semitic, I can probably have a great relationship with Hitler.
Okay.
But your experience, your lived experience, must be excluded from that relationship.
In order for you to have what you call a great relationship.
I don't believe that self-erasure is a way to have a great relationship.
And I think there's lots of stuff to talk about with your mom.
That is really important.
How many books on parent did your mom read?
When the doctors were saying, we're going to put your daughter on medication, did she do any research?
Did she get any alternative opinions?
Did she try and figure out what might be triggering or causing The cries for help that were emanating from your tortured heart.
Has she acknowledged and accepted her role in the harm that the man she chose to come into your life?
Who was an alcoholic?
Who was a kidnapper?
Who was a child beater?
Who was emotionally abusive?
It was her choice that he was there.
It was her choice that he was there.
And my concern, Whitney, is if you take that responsibility away from your mother, you will also in time, if not now, be taking it away from yourself.
And if you believe that you can turn around a bad childhood by agreeing with people who were complicit in your torture as a child, then you're wrong.
The way that you overcome a bad childhood, as far as I know, And as far as I've experienced and as far as the experts that I've talked to have said, and as far as the statistics and research that I've looked at says, is you have honest relationships, you pursue self-knowledge, and you do not reject your childhood experiences in order to less inconvenience your abusers.
That you stand firm in the light and in the truth and in the reality of what you experienced as a child and the harm that was done to you as a child.
And by God, the people who harmed you as a child owe you restitution, owe you acknowledgement, owe you an apology that will go on for years.
And that process needs to start now.
And that process is not going to come from your mother.
That process is obviously, or it seems, is not going to come from your sister since it hasn't started yet.
Therefore, if you know anything about this show, you'll know what I'm saying next.
The road to truth and virtue has to start with you.
Your mother was 100% responsible for the harm that you experienced as a child.
She chose the man.
She kept the man.
She cooked for the man.
She had sex with the man.
She kept him in your life.
She is 100%.
Your father is responsible too, don't get me wrong.
Your father is responsible too.
You don't have a relationship with your father.
I'm talking about your relationship with your mother.
The harm that you experience as a child is 100% her responsibility.
And saying you have a great relationship with her tells me that you are still, at some level, a frightened child, which I completely understand and sympathize with, who is unable to threaten a which I completely understand and sympathize with, who is unable to threaten a pretend bond with the mother by bringing up things that are Thank you.
Which to me is perfectly in accord with the fact that instead of getting therapy, instead of your family getting better, instead of the truth coming out, instead of things being healed and repaired, you were drugged.
And when you were drugged, your family didn't change because they believed that they had found the solution to the problem, which is some imaginary chemical imbalance.
They may as well have taken you to a priest and have an exorcism performed.
In fact, that would have been less dangerous because it wouldn't have altered...
Your physiology in the way that these drugs do, even if temporarily.
So your capacity to communicate, your capacity to have an effect on your environment, your capacity to learn to grow and negotiate and experience the necessary friction between even very like-minded people that arises from close proximity, all of that was bypassed.
And so I imagine that You are conforming to what your mother wants, and your mother obviously wants this pretend great relationship because it serves her needs at your expense, in the same way that passing you off as your stepfather's daughter served her needs at his expense and your expense, in the same way that having a child abuser around her daughters served her needs and not your needs at your expense.
Do you see there's a similar pattern here?
And I think it's time to be a little disagreeable.
I think it might be time to be a little abrasive.
A little problematic.
Which means we need to talk about my childhood.
Some terrible stuff went down and you were my mother and you were in charge of me.
And you let this happen.
You made this happen by having him in my life and you let this continue by keeping him in my life.
And only when you found him dissatisfying did that end.
Not because I was being hit.
You didn't hit me, so you knew that hitting was wrong, but you let him hit me, and verbally abuse me, and kidnap me, and drink around me, and you fought around the children very loud.
We could hear disturbing.
These are problems, and they need to be talked about and addressed.
Now, this is a very volatile conversation to have.
I would strongly suggest Before you do anything, go and talk to a counselor.
I mean, a good therapist who's really good at family dynamics, who's really good at these kinds of childhood issues.
And then, after a certain amount of therapy, I would suggest inviting your mother into the conversation so that you have a professional to help you negotiate and navigate.
This conversation.
I mean, this is a pretty advanced conversation.
I was certainly a lot older with you than you when I had, and I was already in therapy when I had my conversations with people about this.
So it is a very difficult conversation, but that would be my suggestion.
Now, the last thing I'll say is I could be entirely full of the bowel contents of a parakeet.
And I may be entirely wrong.
I may be, I may, this is just telling you what I think.
I'm not a psychologist.
I'm not a therapist.
It's, as usual, amateur idiot hour on the internet.
I could be entirely wrong.
I'm telling you what I would do in your shoes and what I have done, and it's been very successful.
And I would certainly not try and do it without professional help.
Anyway, that's the end of my rant, so just tell me what you think, if you haven't hung up on me already.
No, I'm still here.
I know you've had this talk with your mother, right?
And you don't have a relationship with her, right?
That's correct.
That's like where my problem is, because I don't want to not have a relationship with my mom.
Sure.
But I would argue that if there's a lot that you can't talk about with your mom, I don't think you have a relationship with your mom.
Right now.
I mean, you have a proximity with your mom.
Sure.
And if it works for you, I'm not saying don't do what you're doing.
I'm just telling you what I would do in that situation.
If it works for you and if you enjoy it and if, you know, obviously nobody can tell you what to do as far as that goes.
It doesn't always have to go that way because the people in your life that you want to talk about honest things with...
And look, my mom is...
I don't know your mom or anything like that, but my mom is like way out of bounds...
Compared to most moms.
I mean, she's...
I don't even want to get into it, but she's like...
You know, if your mom's Mars, my mom's Pluto.
I don't mean to be competitive, because Lord knows you don't want to win that race.
No, it's fine.
My mom is not on the same planet as your mom.
And so there's nothing that says for certain that that would be the outcome.
It's a risk.
It's a risk, for sure.
It's a risk.
But...
The way that I viewed it was that I needed to find out if I could have a real relationship with my mom.
And if you have a good relationship with your mom, then that relationship can stand the truth, obviously, right?
I mean, you can't have a good relationship without the truth.
So if there's things that you're not talking about with your mom, then that relationship should be able to stand the truth.
Now, if your relationship with your mom can't stand the truth, Then it's important that you know that.
Now, you don't have to know that by dropping a hand grenade called truth into your relationship with your mom.
But all I want is for it to be a conscious decision for you.
So if you sort of sit there and say, well, you know, that Steph guy may have had a few decent points, but I really don't want to bring this stuff up with my mom.
I'm too scared.
It's too upsetting.
It's too problematic.
It's too risky.
That's fine.
As far as I'm concerned, I mean, not that you'd particularly care.
But you just need to know that.
You need to know that there's stuff you don't talk about with your mom that's really important because you're scared.
And maybe for very good reason, being scared doesn't mean that that's bad or you're cowardly or anything like that.
You may have incredibly excellent reasons for it.
But just be conscious of the fact that you have consciously decided...
Like if we just avoid stuff, it tends to bite us in the ass.
But if we consciously make decisions...
Like, I'm not going to bring up this stuff with my mom because I just, for whatever, you know, whatever ABC reasons and XYZ emotions.
Just be conscious of that.
That's all I will suggest.
So you can say, I have a great relationship with my mom and I've achieved that by limiting certain topics.
I mean, that, to me, if you'd said that, I'd be like, okay, well, you're conscious of it.
But if you say, well, I have this great relationship with my mom, and you did say it was weird to have a good relationship with my mom, but I don't think you're conscious of all the topics you can't talk about, that's all I'm saying.
We can do anything we want with self-knowledge.
I mean, self-knowledge is this ultimate pass to do anything that you want.
As long as you're doing it with self-knowledge, it's almost always going to be fine.
Does that make any sense?
Oh, yeah, for sure.
And how do you feel?
I have some mixed emotions currently.
But I don't know.
We'll see where it goes.
Alright.
Well, listen, I really do appreciate you calling in.
Some great topics, some great questions.
And I just want to say again, I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry.
It's probably ridiculously sexist of me, but I have a daughter and I think about How tender and helpless she is, how energetic, how enthusiastic, and I'm incredibly sorry that you did not experience much of that.
And seem to have experienced the opposite environment, and my heart breaks for that.
I'm so sorry for that.
I just wanted to really mention that.
Thanks.
You're welcome.
All right.
Next caller.
Alright, Pedro, you're up next today.
Go ahead, Pedro.
Hello, Estefante.
Can you hear me?
Yes, go ahead.
Oh, hi.
So before I get into the reason of my call, I just want to say thank you for all the work that you do.
My life has changed a lot in the past few years since I started listening to you.
And I don't know how to express...
I don't know if words can be enough to express my Gratitude towards all the things that you do.
Thank you very much.
I appreciate that.
And then second, well, basically the reason for my call is I had a dream about a week ago.
And I think I understand 80% of it, but the end of the dream was very confusing.
I didn't know what What it meant.
Do you have it typed in at all?
I have it written down, yes.
Do you want me to send it over or can I just read it here?
No, if you can, I mean, your audio is a bit rough, so I'll read it if you don't mind.
If you can just put it in my, actually, since it's going out on the air, it doesn't need to be private, can you just put it in the chat window on Skype?
Sure, sure.
Let me do that in one second.
Thank you.
Chapter 1.
It was a dark and stormy night.
Suddenly, a shot rang out.
You know what?
While you're doing that, I had a dream this week.
I had a dream this week.
It was incredible.
I literally dreamt that I was in a truly free society.
Like, I woke up, and I was there.
I was in this incredible free society, and it was actually a floating city.
We talk about seasteading and stuff like that, but it wasn't like a floating city with statist countries around it.
It was a free society.
No government, no religion.
The kids were all incredibly happy and enthusiastic.
There were lots of balloons, and it was weird.
I was on the edge of this sea city, like a pier, and there were boats rushing by.
Have you ever seen those fans that don't have blades?
And they're like these circles.
The ships were powered by those circles.
And I jumped off, and I jumped into one, was blown out, and then was hanging on to the back as this thing went racing around the bay.
I mean, it was just an incredible dream.
And I remember little flashes and bits and details of what the world looked like that was truly free.
Oh, it's amazing.
I'm normally not, you know, I normally don't wake up with dreams like regrets, like, oh, man, I'd like to, but man, I woke up and it's like, oh, yeah.
Still got a government.
Still smoky church spires on the horizon, still a world of hell for kids, but it was an incredible dream to have had.
Anyway, sorry, Pedro, go ahead.
Did you paste it?
Yes, so I tried to paste the text on the chat, but it doesn't fit.
Can I send you an email?
Is that okay?
Yeah.
Where are you sending it?
Let me just say compose.
So what is the address?
Oh, you can send it to host, H-O-S-T, host at freedomainradio.com.
Freedomainradio.
Should I be alarmed at the dream that doesn't fit in the chat window?
Chapter one.
My dream by Polstoi.
I thought I would expand a bit on that and it turned into a dream.
All right.
I read it before I called, and it took me about five minutes to read it, so I think it should be okay.
Now, do you want me to read the whole thing, or just the part that you're having trouble with?
The whole thing, because I think the whole dream is related.
All right.
All right, so here it is.
The dream.
I was captured and placed in solitary confinement.
The cell looked more like an apartment than a prison cell.
It had multiple rooms, and it was very technologically advanced.
Hey, Pedro, was it more technologically advanced than the current time, or was it just all the cool stuff you can get now?
All the cool stuff you can get now.
It didn't look like a prison.
It looked more like an apartment.
I don't know.
I think I had to...
It was like a very sophisticated machine for me to get the water from.
It was very sophisticated, very technological.
But not futuristic, basically.
Have you been zeitgeisting at all recently?
No.
I mean, I listened to the debate, but that was about it.
And when did the dream happen?
About a week ago.
When did you listen to my debate with Peter Joseph?
It was before that.
It wasn't on the same day.
It wasn't even around the time.
At the beginning of my imprisonment as a dream, I felt desperate.
I tried to imagine how other people were able to live under these conditions, and I became more and more anxious that I might spend the rest of my life here.
After some time, I managed to calm myself down, and I remembered that before, a woman was also captured with me.
And we had spoken about how this organization that was after us would use the most advanced propaganda techniques to vilify us.
And most likely, after some time, they would let us go free and then ridicule us in the eyes of the public.
Have you read 1984?
I have, yes.
Okay.
Because you, I mean, that's a pretty similar storyline.
After a few days, I was set free and I traveled overseas, but I cannot remember the reason why.
I decided to go.
Sorry.
In this new country...
I had to stay hidden under a false identity so that I don't get caught again.
Okay, so wait, they let you go, but you weren't, like, were they trying to catch you again?
Not, it was not, I wasn't being chased explicitly, but I was under the impression that I was being, that they were going to do something to my public image, basically.
Oh, okay, okay.
I wonder what that's like.
I arrived to this huge hotel that had so many rooms and floors that it was like a labyrinth.
The rooms were very tall and dark.
Boy, I tell you, English is fantastic.
Labyrinth.
Beautiful.
What's the Spanish word?
Are you Hispanic?
Portuguese?
Yeah, labyrinth.
It's almost the same word.
Yeah.
Oh, so you're cheating.
It's very similar.
Okay.
Okay, got it.
I am cheating.
It's funny because when I took my...
There was a test I had to take before my master's degree.
I'm sorry.
Say again?
No, go ahead.
No, I was saying that I had to take a test before I... I think it's called the GRE or something like that some years ago.
And some of the most sophisticated words...
I'm very similar to Spanish, so I was like, okay, this is easy.
I have problems with everyday English, but not with sophisticated words.
So what you're saying is that Spanish is just English with tight pants.
Okay, fair enough.
No, it's just, I don't know.
I don't know what I'm saying.
The rooms were very tall, dark, old, and dusty, and there was a creepy feel to the place, as if I was part of a horror movie.
One day I sneaked up to the highest floor.
The floor was not finished.
I could see the cement in the walls because they were not painted and also there were no lights installed.
I heard the steps of someone coming, so I hid behind a wall.
When I realized that the approaching person was too close to be avoided, I simply walked out from behind the wall and I just walked past her, as if I was not really hiding.
She told me, Oh, you scared me for a moment.
I asked her, What was around this part of the building?
She politely showed me that one of the paths led towards the cafeteria and another to the lobby.
I walked away from her and came to a part of the building that had a huge hole in it.
It looked like someone had shot a cannonball at it so big that it was the size of a car.
Do you mean the hole was the size of a car or the cannonball?
The hole.
The hole, okay.
Because, you know, if the hole was smaller than the cannonball, you can have truth that's all over you.
I looked out of the building and I saw a river flowing right out of it.
The waters were murky and it was cloudy, dark outside.
I walked away from this hole in the wall and I saw an opening on the floor.
I entered the hole and I climbed down the stairs.
I was a bit relieved that I made it out because I barely fit the hole and I found myself stuck in it.
a couple of times.
Suddenly I felt surprised and I noticed that I was in a bedroom.
An Asian young man was looking at me, and I said, sorry for entering his apartment this way.
He smiled and said, not to worry.
I asked him how to back out of his place, and he said, I'll show you.
That's the end of the dream?
That's the end, yes.
All right.
So what do you think, what have you got about its meaning?
Right, so I think it's actually pretty clear to me.
So before I traveled abroad, It's basically a description of my life in my country of Oregon.
And after is basically a description of my life in my new country, basically.
What I don't understand is the last part, which is when I found a hole in the floor, What does that even mean?
Why did I go through it?
Why was it so tight that I barely could squeeze through it?
And why did I go to a bedroom and there was an Asian man there?
Really?
You don't know why you might be squeezing through a tight hole to a new kind of life?
Yeah.
So you are the Asian man basically?
Well, I don't know about that, but if you're crawling through a hole that's really tight and there's a lot of change in your life, I mean, that is, I think, a fairly clear rebirth.
Oh, right, right, right, right.
You may remember way back doing that before, leaving the heartbeat behind and having your food tube cut off, right?
Wow.
Yeah, I didn't think of it that way.
But you see, the interesting part is that when I ask this person how to go...
Hello?
I'm not asking him how to go out of his apartment or how to go back.
You know what I mean?
Hello?
Can you hear me?
Yeah, go ahead.
Hello, can you hear me?
Yes, I can hear you.
Go ahead.
Yeah, so I was saying that when I asked the Asian man if he could show me the way out, I'm not sure if I was asking him to show me the way out of his apartment or to...
No, it doesn't matter what you were asking him.
It doesn't matter what you were asking him, Pedro.
There's only one thing that matters about the Asian man, which is that he's the first one, he's the first person to help you.
right and you go into his room and you're like i'm i'm so sorry i'm in your room like you feel bad about it and he smiles and says don't worry let me be helpful to you and in the past other than the woman who you were captured with who doesn't show up in the dream again people are chasing you people have confined you you have to hide from a woman another woman is a little helpful but she's not helpful about anything that you really need
but the asian man you end up in his bedroom and he could get really angry and upset right Like, what the hell are you doing here?
I'm calling security or something.
But he says, not to worry, I will help you.
And he's someone who, you are in a vulnerable position because you're in his room, and he could get angry, he'd call security, and then you might end up back in the high-tech jail.
And he was very matter-of-factly, you know?
And he was nice.
He was very nice, actually.
He wasn't threatening me.
I mean, he's nicer than I might be if somebody just showed up in my bedroom unexpectedly, you know?
But he was very nice and he was very helpful.
So you were in a situation where you were vulnerable and this Asian man did not take advantage of...
Your vulnerability.
You know, there's a great test for finding mean people in your life.
Just be vulnerable and see how they react.
You know, if you self-attack around someone, the sadists around you will pile on or will needle you or will say that you're ridiculous for self-attacking.
They'll make you feel worse.
Whereas the helpful people in your life will attempt to get you to calm down.
The empathetic people will understand why you're doing it and won't shame or put you down or anything like that.
For that.
Right?
So you are in a situation where you are vulnerable, and you have somebody who is not taking advantage of your vulnerability by exercising power, but is instead treating you with concern, gentility, respect, and help.
Right.
Now, the thing is, I don't really have anybody on my life right now.
I mean, it's sad to say, but I don't have any close friends.
I have friends that sometimes I hang out with.
Sometimes I go play soccer with them.
But they're not really friends.
I just talk to them.
Well, let me tell you something.
Pedro, hang on a sec.
Let me tell you something.
This is a great secret.
It's a great and important secret.
You are like everyone else, but you know it.
Do you understand?
No.
It's not like everyone else has these deep and meaningful, connected, honest and true relationships, but you are somehow alone.
Everybody, almost, is alone, right?
As I think it was Emerson who said, most men lead lives of quiet desperation.
Almost everyone is alone, but they don't know it.
They think they have great relationships with, say, people or their mothers.
They are alone, but they don't know that they're alone.
So when people say to me, I'm alone, I think that they maybe feel isolated, but that's actually how you get out of loneliness, is to accept that you are alone and have been alone and work to forge some real relationships.
But there's no beer commercial or philosophical intimacy which we can just go visit.
We have to make relationships.
We can't...
Get them without strenuous effort because we're just raised in these non-connected, anti-connection kind of ways.
Daycare, spanking, schools, church, patriotism, culture, it all divides us from each other.
So when you say, I'm alone, I'm like, good.
Then you understand how we all are, but you are willing to acknowledge it, which is good.
Because if you don't say I'm lost, you're never going to look for a better path.
I just wanted to sort of point that out.
Right.
For a moment, I thought he was my brother actually, you know?
For a moment, I thought the Asian man was my brother because when we were very young, he looked a little bit Asian, you know?
And for a moment, I thought that I was asking my brother, how do I go back to the family life that I have, you know?
For a moment, I thought that I was surrendering, basically.
That I was basically saying, okay, I give up.
No.
Well, he says, I'll show you.
That's a direct quote from the dream, right?
Yes.
Yes.
So we don't know what he's going to show you, right?
Yeah, that's right.
He might show you that he's uncircumcised.
I don't know.
We don't know.
He could say, I'm going to show you that you can't go back.
He might, right?
Because this is an ambiguous statement.
He doesn't say, oh, I'll show you how to get back to your prison.
Right?
Because then his smile would be creepy, right?
It would not be friendly.
But he's going to say, he's saying, I'll show you, but what is he going to show you?
I never felt that I was under danger when I was talking to this guy.
You never felt what?
You were in danger.
No, no, of course, of course, right?
That I was in danger, yeah.
Right.
So is...
Is the solitary confinement, was your family rich, but you felt isolated?
Is that the metaphor?
Yeah.
I mean, they weren't rich, but it was a very comfortable life.
I mean, I went to a private high school.
It was great.
I mean, we took trips.
Okay, so definitely well off.
It was very well off.
But, I mean, emotionally speaking, they were really, really absent.
My father was completely absent, emotionally speaking.
I don't remember he...
I mean, I could probably count with the fingers on my hand the number of times that he played with me, you know?
And my mom, I mean, she was very emotionally manipulative, you know?
And, you know, with my mom, it's been the biggest struggle because I used to remember, quote-unquote, a good relationship with her, you know?
Because she was present, she was there, you know?
And I do have good memories with her sometimes, but many, many times she would use me as an emotional punchback.
Basically she would tell me all her problems and I would just have to process that basically.
And that's what she would call a good relationship.
That's what she would call, oh, we used to talk.
Yeah, which usually means I used to talk, right?
Yeah, she used to tell me her problems basically.
Don't you remember, Pedro, I used to talk about all these things that make your skin crawl.
Wasn't that great?
What made me realize that was reading Alice Miller, The Drown of the Gifted Child.
Yeah, great book.
Because she talks about how therapists sometimes are driven to that profession because they were treated as therapists when they were kids, basically.
Yeah, except that parents who dump emotional problems on their children don't take advice from their children.
Because they're just basically vomiting up their emotional garbage down the child's throat.
And so, therapists who are in therapy for that reason, I would argue, were probably pretty shitty therapists.
Right.
But anyway, alright.
So, you go, did you travel away from your family when you were young?
I'm sorry?
Did you travel away from your family when you were younger?
Is that when you leave in the dream and you go to another country?
Yeah, basically.
I was sent to a new country, basically.
You were sent to a new country?
Yes.
Why?
I said that I was sent.
Basically, I finished my high school and then my uncle and my father basically decided that I was going to come here to go to college, essentially.
The choice was never given to me.
And what about, were you allowed to choose what you were going to study?
On the surface, yes, but there was so much influence on it that I don't think I would have been able to oppose their advice.
Okay, so then...
No, go ahead.
I mean, I do like what I do.
This might be just a coincidence, but I do actually enjoy what I do.
I think I'm good at it, actually.
But I don't think that's an excuse.
If they got it right, if they just somehow magically knew what I was going to like in the future, I don't think that's an excuse.
Right, right.
Now, who is the woman in the dream?
Do you recognize the woman who you hide because you're scared someone's coming?
You think it might be the people who want to catch you and put you back in the high-tech prison?
And you walk out from behind the wall and you walk past her.
I think she represents other people, the fact that I don't trust people.
You know?
That I have to hide my own, that I have to hide my emotions from other people.
I don't think she represents anybody specifically, essentially.
Because you are hiding your emotions from her, right?
Yes.
I mean, I specifically say I'm going to act as if I wasn't hiding, basically.
But I was actually hiding.
And the interesting thing is that she doesn't pick up on that, right?
That's right.
Because you're the one who's actually scared, and then she says, oh, you scared me for a moment.
When you were the one who was actually scared and you then pretend that you weren't scared and she doesn't pick up on that, which means that she doesn't really have much emotional sensitivity or empathy, right?
Right.
And then you ask her or she shows you all of the stuff that is functional and factual and non-intimate while you're pretending that you weren't scared.
Right, right.
Compared to the Asian guy.
Compared to the Asian guy who is empathetic about you feeling nervous and is smiling to reassure you.
Like, people burst into your bedroom, you usually don't smile to reassure them, right?
But he understands that you're feeling vulnerable, that you're scared, and he smiles to reassure you, right?
So he actually, even though he's in the situation where he should be scared, he knows that you're scared and he feels confident.
Right?
Which is the reverse of the situation with the woman where you're scared and she doesn't even pick up on that and only talks about her own emotions, right?
Right.
Right.
Okay, so the Asian guy, he could be someone in your life or he could be you awakening to empathy.
It could be, you know, because...
Actually, the Asian guy was...
You know when you wake up, like, if you're sleeping and somebody comes into the room and then wakes you up and you might kind of sit down?
That's what he looked like.
Like, basically, he just sat down.
The sheets were on top of him, on top of his lap, basically, you know?
Oh, yeah.
No, you mean he sat up in bed?
Yeah, he sat up, yeah.
Okay.
I take back what I said about your English.
No, I'm kidding.
So he sat up on bed and he smiled at you to reassure you.
And that shows an astounding amount of confidence on his part, right?
I mean, was he naked from the waist up?
No, not that I could tell.
Did he have pajamas on?
No, I think he just had a t-shirt on.
Oh, he just had a t-shirt on.
done, okay.
What happened the day before the dream?
Do you remember?
I do.
I ate my money.
My mom called me because my uncle called my father, asking them, or asked the father, I guess, for money, basically.
I mean, it's complicated, but we paid some money, and then my uncle claims that that money was sent back to us, and my parents claimed that the money stayed with him.
And so my mom called me to ask me if I remember what happened.
I seriously don't remember.
It's been so long.
It's been almost 14 years, so I don't remember.
So your mother called you up to dump her personal problems on you again?
Yeah.
I think she uses my uncle.
You know how countries use external enemies to create this false sense of unity?
So she uses my uncle to create this false sense of unity between her and me.
Because she knows that I don't get along with my uncle.
Right.
So she uses that.
And it's just...
It makes things worse.
I don't know if they could get worse, but it just reinforces the fact that she's not open to my emotions, basically.
That she has never been open to my emotions.
Right.
Do you know there's an amazing thing that happens right after babies are born?
When a baby is born, The baby has never seen a tongue, because the baby's been in the womb, right?
A newborn baby, minutes old, do you know what happens when you stuck your tongue out at a newborn baby?
It mimics you, right?
I think.
Yeah, he or she, not it, he or she sticks his or her tongue back at you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.
And so...
That's amazing.
I mean, there's so much that's truly astounding about that.
How does she know which muscles to work?
How does she know what a tongue is?
How does she know what your tongue looks like?
How does she know that your tongue is the same as her tongue?
She has no idea, but she's able to do it.
That is how early empathy occurs.
So you go through this, you know, fairly obvious birth canal metaphor of going through a hole and Did your father have any aggressive tendencies?
Only when he was propagandized by my mother.
Basically, when we were younger and I would do something, quote-unquote, bad, she would tell me, oh, wait tonight and I'll tell your father what you did.
And it was terrifying.
And so your mother would whip your father up into aggression and then would he spank or what would he do?
Yeah, he would spank me, basically.
Yeah.
Sometimes he would just yell so high that it was very fine.
I'm incredibly sorry for that.
The hole, if it's vaginal, if it's a rebirth, the reason I asked if your father had aggressive tendencies is what made the hole?
What made the hole?
In your dream.
Well, you mean the hole in the wall or the hole in the floor?
Yeah.
It looked like someone had shot a cannonball at it.
Oh, the hole in the wall.
There are two holes.
There's a hole in the wall, which is like really large, and then there's a hole in the floor, which is very small.
And that might have been where the cannonball fell, right?
All right.
I mean, a cannon is phallic and balls are, well, balls, right?
It's possible.
I don't know.
That may be a stretch, but that's sort of what popped into my head that a woman's sexuality is involved with male aggression.
And I think that there's actually quite a lot that's true about that.
Now, it's not hugely important, but I think that's why you sort of felt that if a cannonball had been shot into the room, it might have gone or made the hole in the floor or something like that.
The whole world, it actually looked, now that you bring that up, it looked like a wound, you know?
A wound, sure.
Well, you know what a slang term for a vagina is?
A gash.
And in birthing, a baby wounds the mother, right?
I mean, it tears the vagina.
So, yeah, I think I really like the calm at the end and the empathy where somebody is actually focusing on your emotions and your emotions.
And to focus on someone else's emotions, boy, you know, it's really hard for a lot of people to do that.
To really focus on somebody else's feelings is really tough for people to do.
It is a very rare skill.
I shouldn't say skill.
It sounds like juggling or something.
Maybe it's that hard to learn.
I think we're all born with it.
Babies mimic and they empathize and all of that.
My daughter started feeding me when she was like 13 months old or whatever.
And it's really important to understand where we are as a species.
That ethics is used to exploit.
That emotions are used to manipulate things.
That aggression is used to pretend to resolve disputes.
That vulnerability is used for bullying.
That openness is used for stealing.
That friendliness is viewed as a sign of weakness by a lot of people.
It's really important to know where we are as a species.
I mean, have you known many people who can genuinely focus on you without...
Running some kind of agenda from themselves.
I haven't known anybody like that.
I am continually focused in these shows on not running an agenda.
That is my continual focus, is to focus on the other person and to not attempt to impose What I think is true on the other person, right?
I'm continually saying these are just my thoughts.
I could be wrong.
This is my instinct.
This is what I think.
If I were in your shoes, not this is the way it is.
This is the way it has to be.
I'm constantly trying to ask questions that don't demand an answer.
Like, what do you mean you've never talked to her about this?
You know, whatever, right?
And I will make fun of myself if I can't think of a good question that's open-ended.
I'll make fun of myself for, quote, leading the witness, right?
Because I want to make sure that I'm focused on the other person.
Sorry, go ahead.
How do you know if somebody is being really empathetic versus...
Okay, so let me give you a little bit of background.
When I was back in college, I used to be very...
It was easier for me to have female friends than male friends.
And I could talk to them about their problems.
I mean, similar to what happened with my mother.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Oh, Pedro, I must interrupt you.
Okay.
I must interrupt you.
What did you say you did with your female friends?
I would talk to them about their problems.
Yeah.
What does that sound like?
Similar to what I used to...
I'm sorry?
Yeah, that sounds like your mom, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
Yes.
Yes.
So it wasn't easier.
Talking to someone about their problems is not friendship.
I mean, obviously it has to be mutual, right?
Right.
But how would they know that I was...
How would they...
Like, for instance, if I was that person that I was talking...
If I was that girl that I was talking to back in college, how would she know that I was just basically doing what I knew how to do with women because of my mom?
Versus being really empathetic.
How would she know that from me?
Well, Pedro, the issue comes when someone says, listen, we've just spent an hour talking about my problems.
I really appreciate that, but I don't want to make this evening all about me.
I appreciate that.
You're a great friend for listening, but let's put my stuff aside.
Let's focus on you.
You know, because otherwise I'm just using you, right?
So it's when someone self-checks.
I mean, it's not like you can't talk about your problems with your friends.
You do, for sure.
Right.
But you remember.
You remember that they have needs, problems, issues, questions.
That's one way you know when somebody says, okay, I've monopolized the conversation.
Let's talk about you, right?
So when I have a big speech, I'll say, I'm sorry for that long speech.
Now tell me what you think or I want to know what you think or how are you feeling.
Like you go back to the other person.
That's one way you know you with somebody who's empathetic.
The other way that you know if somebody's empathetic is you need to feel a rush to answer or respond and neither do you feel that there is a preferred response Response to whatever they're asking you.
So a lot of people, we kind of feel like desperate entertainers.
Like, I have to keep this person's interest.
Like, if you've ever gone to a party and you try and talk to someone and their eyes are just always looking over the room and it takes them five seconds to respond to a question and then they just kind of shrug or whatever, right?
I mean, okay, what do I got to juggle?
Like, flaming porcupines to keep your attention?
That is a person who lacks empathy.
If you feel like you have to have a particular kind of response in order to satisfy the person, then they're not curious about what you think and feel.
When you're really curious about what somebody thinks and feels, nothing but the truth will do.
And if the truth goes against your preferences, too bad for your preferences.
Nothing but the truth will do.
And if you feel a rush to respond, that's because you're afraid of the person losing interest.
Or getting distracted or whatever.
If you feel that you must respond in a particular way or there will be a problem, then that is somebody who is not being empathetic.
Empathy is a genuine, open-ended, patient curiosity about what the other person thinks and feels.
I've literally had conversations that last for three hours until we get to what the real issue is.
If we're trying to solve a problem or if anything.
I've had conversations that last for days.
And you relentlessly continue to pursue Open-ended questions where there's genuine sharing and you will accept nothing but the truth.
If you think that someone...
Like, if I think someone is telling me something because that's what they think I want to hear, I know.
And I'll tell them, please don't do that.
Right?
I mean, I dumped a caller on Sunday because he just wasn't telling me the truth.
It doesn't mean I was mad at him, but this is a conversation about the truth, right?
I don't call into a show about dogs and start talking about UPB and people shouldn't call into a philosophy show unless they want to tell the truth because I've always said truth is the first requirement for virtue.
It's the first requirement for any genuine human communication.
It doesn't mean I think he's a bad guy.
It doesn't mean I'm mad at him.
It's just, sorry, this is a show about speaking honestly.
So your emotions in general will tell you when someone is genuinely curious about you and is genuinely empathetic towards you.
If you feel rushed or if you feel constrained, right?
So something like political correctness is anti-empathetic because it has correctness in it.
Right.
we all have biases we all have prejudices if we can't talk about them openly if we get a tax for it then this is an anti-empathetic movement and therefore it cannot complain about a lack of empathy or prejudice
so does that help it is going to be in your heart that you know when you're really being listened to when someone wants to know what you can feel because of who you are not because they want something or they want you to reinforce something or they want you to do something or whatever sorry go ahead Thank you.
No, no, I was just going to say that, yeah, it's very helpful.
Yeah, I just have to keep working on myself.
I mean, it's really tough, you know?
I mean, the breakup with my family was really difficult, especially with my mom, you know?
Because, you know, we all have this, I mean, at least I used to have the idea that I had a great relationship with her, you know?
And we were physically, you know, close together.
But it's just very difficult to see the emotional manipulation that comes with using your kid.
It is hard to see that and it is like trying to explain paradise to a medieval surf or cell phones to a caveman.
To communicate what a genuine relationship looks like to people who don't want it, can't do it, reject it, attack it.
I mean, it's really hard to explain what that is.
And people, I'm telling you, most people just don't know what they're missing.
Or maybe they kind of do deep down or it's too costly or something like that.
But it's worth fighting for almost no matter what the odds are.
I got more callers, man.
I really appreciate that call.
I think that...
Follow the Asian guy.
That's my first piece of advice.
Maybe that should be the name of my next book.
I don't know.
For me, there's always been a funny wordplay on Asian.
Why Asian?
Oriental oriented.
Yeah.
I've just left China.
I'm disoriented.
Whatever it is.
There could be something like that.
I would definitely see what you dream tonight and make a note of what you dream tonight because if somebody takes your inner life seriously and you dream seriously, that may awaken even more vivid and compelling inner conversations.
Ever since I started listening to my own feelings, I've had You know, incredible dreams.
They're so vivid and so full of insights about my life that it's just...
It's painful, but I think it's helping me, so...
Yeah, all we have to do is put on the headphones and we find that our heart sings beautifully.
So thank you very much for the call.
I appreciate that.
And who's next?
All right, Yaroslav.
You're next today.
Go ahead, Yaroslav.
Hello.
Hi.
So what's up?
Just doing my Wednesday show, man.
What's up with you?
I'm just calling into your Wednesday show.
Do you know what's not up?
What's that?
Yaroslav is not up.
I feel my energy pouring out me like somebody just took a scimitar to the bottom of my sandbag.
What's the matter?
What are you down about?
Well...
Hello?
Are you stoned?
Well, no.
It could be just that I was awake all night.
It's 5 a.m.
for me.
Yeah, I was going to say, you sound like you haven't slept in a while.
Do you want to call back when you're more rested?
No, I mean...
All right, well, what's your question then, man?
Well, the first thing I wanted to talk about was I watched one of your videos on YouTube about utilitarianism.
And, like...
You're bashing it pretty hardly, but to an extent I think he didn't do it justice.
Can I tell you that I'm already annoyed?
That doesn't mean you're wrong.
I'm just telling you that I'm already annoyed.
Because you use the word bashing.
Bashing is not an argument.
I either made a correct argument or an incorrect argument, but the bashing has no...
No intellectual content to it.
So if you can tell me the argument that I made that was incorrect, I'd appreciate that.
But adjectives are not arguments.
Okay, my apologies about that.
Well, I don't think any of your arguments were incorrect.
I think when you mentioned that nobody can decide for anyone else what's best for them, because even we find it difficult to determine what makes us happy, so how can anyone else do?
I think that's a perfectly valid and reasonable argument.
But the thing is, I was thinking about it, and I'm not sure whether...
It's applicable when speaking about utilitarianism or not, but what happens when we're only referring to a single individual?
Like, not to a group or to a society, but just to one person.
Because when it comes to a group or society, I mean, you can do a bad thing to one person and a good thing to the other one and, like, have a correlation and say it's justified, but the person who's suffering, he doesn't care, he's the one suffering.
But when it comes to a few...
Do you understand?
Yeah, no, and I just...
I don't remember everything I said in that video, but I don't think that I would ever say that we can never say what is better for someone, any particular individual.
So if someone is addicted to meth, what does that make?
Your teeth fall out and all that?
I mean, so if somebody's addicted to meth, I think we can say pretty clearly and objectively that it's better for them to not take that, right?
If somebody's eating themselves into like...
500-pound territory, I think we can say that, you know, stacking the Big Macs in your gullet is not that good for you.
So we certainly can with people say what is generally better.
We can't say, is a Big Mac good or bad?
Right?
We can't say that.
I mean, if somebody's starving and that's the only food they've got, then it's the best thing that they're ever going to eat in their whole life.
If somebody is already 500 pounds and has just had three Big Macs, the fourth one is pretty bad.
We can't say the thing itself is good or bad.
Like, is a gun good or bad?
You can't really say.
Murder is bad, but is a knife good or bad?
Well, you know, if you want to whittle, it's good.
If you want to stab someone, then that's bad.
So the thing itself we can't say is good or bad.
The actions we can evaluate according to universal ethical standards.
For each individual, we can say you shouldn't take more meth.
Now, I for one am not a big fan of cocaine.
The drug, not the song.
People may think otherwise.
In fact, someone in the room just laughed about that because...
I'm a little hyper, but that's probably why I shouldn't, you know, you don't want turbo boosters on the space shuttle necessarily.
So, but some people have had enormous creative breakthroughs using cocaine, right?
So Freddie Mercury starts dropping cocaine and he starts writing the most amazing songs.
I really like Sgt.
Pepper's Not necessarily generated with lots of warm tea and milk.
And so, I don't know.
I think that it's hard to say that nobody should ever take drugs.
I mean, as I said before, I've got to throw out half my music collection, almost all my poetry, and at least half my books.
Because that's just bad.
But I think we can say if somebody is heavily addicted to them to the point where they can't get out of bed and they can't function and their heart is developing arrhythmia, that it's probably good if they stop.
But drugs, good or bad?
I can't answer that.
So you can't make any collective statements about society and things, but I think you can with individuals definitely say that It's not good for you to keep eating this much or taking this many drugs or maybe even exercising this much.
It can be any number of things.
So, does that make any sense?
Yes, that makes perfect sense.
But the crux of my question is that When just referring to a single individual, is there any way it can be morally acceptable for a person to break the non-aggression principle?
Because breaking the non-aggression principle in that case would result in that person being even more happier in the end.
No, no, no, no, no.
No, you don't need more examples.
No, you can't break the non-aggression principle because you'll be happier.
I mean, a sadist is happy when he tortures people.
Does that mean his happiness overrides their desire to not be tortured?
No, of course not, right?
And this doesn't have anything, once you start talking about individuals, you're no longer talking about utilitarianism.
Utilitarianism as a philosophy is the argument that we can objectively determine what is the greatest good for the greatest number and we need the state to achieve that end.
That is utilitarianism in a nutshell.
The moment you start talking about, because you brought up my video on utilitarianism and now you want to talk about individuals.
I just want to point out that there's no such thing as utilitarianism for individuals.
That's like a crowd of me.
It just doesn't fit.
But anyway, so no, happiness is not a standard by which we can violate the non-aggression principle because if happiness allows you to establish a principle or deny a principle, well, the guy who wants to be happy by torturing people, they want to be happy by not being tortured and therefore they can't both achieve their ends and therefore happiness can't be universalized.
Boom!
I'll lend me some UPB. Go ahead.
Oh, all right then.
Well, I wasn't really sure if it was a digitalitarianism or not.
I was just thinking, is it possible to aggress against someone?
And if you know that after you aggress after him, a person will understand why you did it, and he'll actually be happy that you did it, and he'll thank you for it.
Absolutely.
But then, see, I mean, then it's not...
The principle doesn't exist like gravity.
It doesn't exist in the abstract.
The only thing that really matters about the principle is are you going to be prosecuted for it or not?
So if a guy with headphones on is bopping his way into traffic and you tackle him, he'll be like, oh my God, thank you so much for saving my life.
Here's a mixtape of the Fugees, right?
So he's happy, right?
I mean...
And I've written about this a bunch of times, so I won't go into any more detail.
So if you, quote, violate a principle and the guy thanks you for it, then you haven't violated the principle because there's no negative consequences to it, right?
Whereas if you tackle someone about to win a gold medal, they're probably going to be quite upset with you and you've just blown away 20 years of practice.
So, you know, if you say, well, I violated some abstract principle, but everyone's truly overjoyed that you did it, then there's no problem with it whatsoever, because there's no God who's going to enforce these principles, right?
There's no NAP demon that's going to screech down and suck out your eyeballs if you save someone from wandering into traffic.
If that person's great with it, hey, there's no problem.
There's no victim, right?
That clears up a whole bunch for me because in YouTube comments or other places I see these arguments against the non-aggression principle bringing up these hypotheticals that according to the non-aggression principle you're not allowed to apply force no matter the circumstances even if you know bringing up these stuff.
Yeah.
No, I've got a bunch of articles about this.
You can look for them I mean, they're all fine questions.
It's just that this stuff never materializes.
And, you know, the non-aggression principle violations that we need to deal with are things like spanking taxes, national debt, war, incarceration for victimless crimes, and so on.
We got a lot to deal with before we get to guys hanging off flagpoles while dragons come out of their nose and burn people who might want a good suntan.
You know, we've got a lot of things to deal with before we get to these freaky things that happen once every thousand years.
It's like we're waist deep in corpses from a plague and people dying of plague and people are wondering You know, what happens if a hangnail gets infected with a virus that came off an asteroid?
It's like, well, you know what?
When we live in a world where the biggest health issue we have to deal with is a hangnail getting infected from a virus that comes off an asteroid, that's a pretty fucking great world, but we are...
A long way away from that, so let's deal with the issues that are all obvious and egregious violations of the non-aggression principle, and then worry about the flagpole scenarios when we're not waist-deep in bodies and debt.
So I hope that you won't get too distracted by the people who want to paralyze you with the impossible nonsense of never going to happen and actually get you busy on dealing with spanking taxes, debt, and so on, because that's where the real issues are.
All right.
Waiting for every question to be answered is just a way of saying, I'm not going to do anything.
And I don't think you're that guy, but these other people are constantly doing the cock block of, I want to get something done in this life.
All they're doing is running interference from people who want to get things done.
And the beautiful thing is, you know, just blow and they disappear.
You know, they're mirages.
Just walk through them.
I mean, all the shit.
And people who are like, well, what if this freaky circumstance comes up?
And what if that freaky circumstance?
It's like, fuck that.
We've got a lot of shit to deal with right now.
We've got 80 to 90% of parents still spanking their children.
We have $100 trillion of unfunded liabilities in the U.S. alone.
We have healthcare that people can't afford.
We have shitty schools.
We have taxation.
We have national debts, victimless crimes.
70-80% of people in jail, there's no victim.
They're being kidnapped and thrown in rape rooms for nothing.
So, excuse me if I don't give a flying fuck.
About what happens if donuts rain from heaven and we're all allergic.
I really could give a flying fuck about that because we've got so many more important things to do.
Walk past those people.
They're a mirage designed to paralyze you so you don't actually get anything done in this life.
Just walk past them.
They don't exist.
They are anti-matter.
They are venom in the blood of humanity.
They are a paralytic that the moment you stop believing that anything they say has any relevance whatsoever, you can actually get out of The straight jacket of inconsequentiality and get some shit done in this life.
But don't let fucking idiots in YouTube comments stop you from taking a stand for virtue in this world.
All right, let's get to the next caller.
Let's not get the next caller.
Let me fill up some time because we are restarting Skype.
Skype is getting rid of their API. I don't know how we're going to record.
I believe we're going to have transcriptions and I'm looking to get some of those wax cylinders that people used to use to make play-a-thons on artificial pianos.
Am I just filling time here uselessly?
I keep filling time.
Really?
We've had some bizarre Skype crashes.
I remember when we were going to talk to Wendy McElroy, Skype crashed right before the phone call.
And then she has some, I don't talk to people after 15 minutes past due.
Sorry, we were 17 minutes.
Enjoy your time with Jeff Burick.
So, yeah, are we back?
49% of Americans are currently dependent upon the government.
49% of Americans.
I think one more person will be the straw that breaks the calendar.
The next person who applies for government assistance is going to bring the whole fucking thing down.
So watch that paperwork.
we're going to remember who you are.
So precious.
You're not responding.
I just reboot.
and Give up, man.
Give up.
Just reboot.
So can anyone, can I talk to anyone?
Walid, are you on the line?
We can hear you.
Yeah, I'm here if you can hear me.
All right, go ahead.
Walid, you're next.
We'll keep going.
Awesome.
I think your Skype is actually working, Mike.
Because I can hear you.
No, but I can hear you.
It may not look like it's working, but it's working.
So, you know what it is?
It's like the opposite of a public sector worker.
Because they look like they're working, but they're not.
They're actually interfering.
Skype is all grayed out, but it's actually still transmitting information.
My God, it's part of the gray economy.
It's joined the Silk Road.
Run!
Sorry, go ahead.
More coffee?
No, thanks.
I'm full.
I'm good to go then, Stefan?
Yes.
Okay, well, first I want to thank you for your Bitcoin presentation because it got me interested enough and Bitcoin's actually invested in it.
And, uh, Since that, I think your presentation, Bitcoin shot up to about $90 from what it was originally.
Yes, I just wanted to mention that.
I did take some pride in that.
When, Mike, did we do the Bitcoin presentation?
About a month ago.
Has Bitcoin gone up $90 per Bitcoin since I did the presentation recommending it as a good investment?
Basically recommending it as something that I was going to stay in?
So if somebody had invested $1,000 in Bitcoins when I did the presentation, how would they be doing right about now?
They'd be doing quite well.
I just invested $1,000.
How are you doing?
That's what I did.
I literally did that.
Well, I invested at about $140 and it's currently at $230 per Bitcoin, so I'm doing all right.
Well, oh well.
That's very nice.
Now, a lot of people who give advice, I'm certainly no stockbroker or anything like that, and I don't actually tell anyone to buy anything.
I just tell what I think is interesting.
But you know, a lot of people who run hedge funds and so on, they take a couple of percentage points from people who profit from their advice.
It's just an interesting thought.
Anyway, go ahead.
Hey, Stefan, I actually donated to you for that presentation, so you kind of did get that.
So I think I'm kind of like filling in the gaps here.
My subtle snake finger slithering through your pockets is actually completely unnecessary.
Well, thank you very much for that.
Anyway, how can I help you today?
I was just going to ask you...
I'm pretty interested in entrepreneurship, and I know that you have quite a history with that.
So I was going to ask you for advice in the early stages of your entrepreneurial adventure, I guess, because I'm looking to get into that myself.
Now, when you say early days of my entrepreneurship, you're not talking like my paper route.
I was fairly entrepreneurial with that, but you're talking like more business-y stuff, right?
Right.
It's like your tech thing.
All right.
I mean, I have some personal experience with, I guess, running a business.
I'm a freelance writer right now, and so I have my own clients who are not.
And so I know how to manage customers at least, and I know the importance of delivering a quality product.
But the problem with my work is I don't really like it too much.
I've gotten kind of bored of it, and it's kind of like an isolated job because most of my clients are online.
What kind of writing do you do?
I've written for websites, local businesses.
Wait, you'll have to stop.
You'll have to stop because I was actually just about to fall asleep as you started describing the kind of writing that you do.
Do you also dip into technical writing when you want to do some really exciting stuff?
No.
Have you ever authored a help file?
I must know.
No.
Have any of your writings included new graphics, you know, like flashy BAM singles, symbols?
Do you write copywriting?
Any advertising?
Yeah, I've written some of that.
I've written for like blogs and whatnot.
Basically ghostwriting for blogs.
Okay, so you are doing some seriously boring shit.
Okay, go ahead.
Yeah, basically.
No, I'm with you.
I mean, yeah, you've got to eat.
You've got to pay the bills.
I mean, it wasn't like I was thrilled being a waiter or when I cleaned offices as a teenager or anything like that.
When I worked in a hardware store, I wasn't like, ooh!
Nails!
I have a reason to get out of bed this morning.
I know there are some people who are like that.
I remember when I was in the hardware store, it was kind of slow sometimes.
We actually would mob people who go, do you need keys cut?
Ooh!
And when you got to mix paint, ooh!
It was so exciting.
Cleaning out the glass bin was, of course, death-defying because, you know, we cut all this glass and basically it'd be like, here, let me grab the murder bag and hope I don't die.
That was exciting.
But worst of all was inventory.
Inventory.
If you drew the plumbing section, you basically just wanted to take a pipe wrench to your forehead and wake up three weeks from now.
So, yeah, a lot of stuff is boring, pays the bills, but you don't want to stay there, right?
Absolutely.
Like, I mean, just like you said, when I wake up in the morning, it's not like I have anything particular to look forward to, unless I come up with some goals and whatnot.
And I've done that in the past, where I've come up with goals, and then that would get me up out of bed, and I'd be pretty motivated the next day.
But right now, I've kind of just lost direction, lost a sort of inspiration.
I have no idea.
If I did want to do something entrepreneurial, I have no idea what exactly I would be doing.
Okay.
So these are all the reasons why you're here.
So at some point, you know, if I'm the doctor, you don't have to tell me you're unwell.
You have to tell me where it hurts, right?
Sure.
So, what do you want to do?
Well, I want to be involved in something that's going to basically, I guess, improve.
I'm sorry.
Doctor, I'd like to feel better in some manner, right?
What is your dream job?
Be specific.
I guess working with creative writing and things like that, like writing novels, making creative media, like film production and things like that.
Okay, so you want to do creative writing, you want to do film production, stuff like that.
Yeah.
Do you need training for that?
Do I need training for it?
Do you need training for that?
I think...
I'm not really sure.
I mean, I think that I have a pretty vivid imagination as it stands.
I've had writing classes in the past, back when I was in university and whatnot.
Vivid imagination.
You know, there are guys on the street corner of downtown Toronto who genuinely feel they're being attacked by bats being flown by Klingons.
They have very vivid imagination.
So vivid imagination is fine, but practical steps is important.
Let me make the case for taking training in these things.
If you take training in these things, you will get exposure to people who are in the industry.
Right, so I actually got to touch a living, breathing agent after I took a fairly lengthy and involved creative writing class.
And I got professional reviews of my books, I got re-editing from published writers, and they got me to an agent and so on who found my work completely unsellable, which is actually for the best, because I'm much better at philosophy than I am at novels, and I'm pretty good novelists too.
But, so, yes, if you want to start writing novels...
I don't see how that's fundamentally different from saying I'd like to start designing airplanes.
As I've said before, just because people write doesn't mean they can write.
You know, people write emails, they write letters, that doesn't mean they can write novels.
They write blog entries, that doesn't mean they can write poetry.
You know, I can type, I know 26 letters, that doesn't mean I can do a haiku that's really good.
Because that all takes practice and skill and work.
So if you want these things, then I would suggest that you...
Find a really good program and enroll.
And through that process, you will meet other people in the industry.
Like I'm listening to Billy Crystal's autobiography.
And, you know, his father managed jazz acts, ran a record store, was a music producer.
He met a lot of creative types.
You know, Not a Bad Life and Ella Fitzgerald are singing Happy Birthday.
And then he went to film school, and a lot of people that he met in film school later ended up hiring him, like Rob Reiner hired him, who he met in film school, if I remember rightly.
Oliver Stone was in film school, who I'm sure would explode if he ever tried to hire Billy Crystal for any of his dark, paranoid, freak festive movieville.
But if you go in to get training, you get exposure to people, exposure to the craft, the art.
Martin Scorsese was their teacher.
And so that's a lot of companionship you can get out of that.
A lot of people who are going to be able to open doors for you.
They get a job, maybe they can get you a job.
You get a job, maybe you can get them a job, and so on.
So taking some training is not a bad place to start.
And the reason I say that is because, like for me, I didn't take training in computers, but I could just start programming once I had a structure and something to program and so on, people to work with.
So if you want to do stuff that's creative, You know, there are very high barriers to making it in the creative profession.
And the reason for that is it's so incredibly enjoyable and so incredibly well-paid that just about everyone wants to be there.
You know, there's a reason why really good-looking women have this arctic chill moat around them.
It's because just about everyone wants to ask them out.
So they've got to radiate off this cold, haughty nastiness and So that only the toughest warriors get through the ice barricade.
And there's a reason why there's really strong and high barriers to entry in professions that are the most fun.
You know, you don't need a license to be a waiter.
You don't need an agent to clean offices.
But to do stuff that is super fun, otherwise people would just get swamped.
There's a reason why you need agents, because otherwise people would be getting...
You know, you've got to know who's good.
You've got to have someone who's screening out all the wannabes.
And so to get over that hurdle, it's not a bad thing, I would say, to work artistically.
Unfortunately, and I will refer you to Ben Shapiro on this, I think it's called How the Left Controlled Television or something like that.
You can look up, I'm sorry, for the title of his book.
But if you are not a socialist and you want to get into artistic professions, you will have a tough time.
A very, very tough time.
It's true that a one-armed woman might win a dance pageant, but boy, that's a pretty high barrier to entry.
And it's true that somebody who is not a socialist, not on the left, not a liberal, they might make it in creative fields or creative professions.
But boy, I mean, those are some pretty long odds in a profession that's already got pretty long odds involved as well.
So I'd be very careful about that and really judge your chances accurately, if that makes sense.
It does make sense.
Basically, like, I'd like to do something similar to what you've done.
Like, you've started your own, I guess, like, Platform for your own creative expression and your own thoughts online.
And I feel like the internet has just given that voice to so many different people.
So even if I didn't want to release anything, I would just put it online.
And I guess I could kind of bypass that whole socialist system that's involved with Hollywood and whatnot.
And I really never had any big interest in Hollywood or anything like that because I mean like I... I do listen to your show quite frequently and I do know that, for example, yeah, you basically have to be a socialist or be a leftist if you want to get anywhere in those circles.
So I was just more exploring the online medium for just releasing my own work.
Alright, now, but imagine this.
Imagine I were a Chippendales dancer.
Somebody extremely well-oiled With four kumquats stuffed in his pants.
Gyrating away.
Does this sound too vivid?
Like I've really thought this through?
Probably does.
Gyrating away to a bunch of screaming women who will then go home and complain about the objectification of women in the media.
After saying, grind it, you man-meat-muscle mass.
Into my lap.
Give it to mama.
Here's five bucks.
Anyway, so...
If you saw me...
As a Chippendales dancer, you said, Steph, I really, really, really want to be a Chippendales dancer.
What's the first thing that I would tell you to do?
Put on a thong and put four kumquats in there and then gyrate, I guess?
Or be good?
Absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
When you are ready to grasp these kumquats from my hand, glasshopper, you're ready to gyrate for the housewives.
No, that is not what I would suggest that you do.
What I would suggest you do is adjust your diet and exercise regime so that you look like a Chippendales dancer, right?
Okay.
I mean, I like my ab, but apparently you need more than one to be a Chippendales dancer.
And it should not have a mind of its own when you lean forward over a tightly belted waist.
It should not be a wee tsunami of middle-aged pudge.
So...
In order to even remotely become a Chippendales dancer, the first thing you need to do is get pretty buff, right?
Yeah.
Because it's necessary but not sufficient, right?
Well, this is assuming that you are already pretty buff and lean before you even want to become one, right?
So...
Well, so this is my question, right?
Is that...
How old are you?
24.
24, okay.
Do you feel that you have enough of value at the moment to say to the world that the world will be willing to support you in your communications?
It's not a leading question.
You may very well.
But that's my question.
In other words, you need to do some sit-ups before you become a Chippendales dancer.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, definitely to which one?
Sorry.
I gave you two opposite-answered questions.
Do you have enough to say at the moment that you think the world will support you in saying it?
No, I do not.
And that's one reason why I haven't started.
Okay, so then what do you need to do to gain enough knowledge that the world is going to support you in what you want to say?
I feel like I need to go out and get more experiences, live the life that I've always wanted to live, and to myself in different situations where I guess it would be challenging for me, where I can experience some personal growth.
I think that's wise.
I think cracking some books might not hurt either.
You can't just absorb wisdom like a Chinese smog, right?
And so, yeah, I think learning the abstracts and living the concretes is the way that you gain communicable wisdom and, of course, practicing communication.
So you have to know what is right, you have to do what is right, and then you have to learn how to communicate what is right.
Now, if you don't know what is right and you don't do what is right, I don't think you could really communicate what is right.
Right, I believe that.
Yeah, so I assume through this show you have a good idea of what is right and you can live that, right?
So you can go out and be courageous in the world and bring good to the world and talk to people and so on.
I mean, you know, my conversations about virtue started decades before this show.
I mean, I've been talking about these ideas with friends and family since I was...
13 or 14 years old.
I mean, I remember having intense debates with friends when we were 14 or 15 about things like the death penalty and abortion, you know, because when you're a kid, you're always an idiot and you start off with the most difficult and you don't have a framework.
But nonetheless, you know, we crossed swords and matched wits about these things for a long time.
And...
What happened with FDR was the culmination of all that kind of stuff.
You know, it's like the old 10-year overnight success.
You know, this guy came out of nowhere.
Well, no, he really didn't.
And the preparation is all, the 10,000 hours.
You know, if you want to be a communicator, you want to bring the world, virtue to the world, I think that's fantastic.
You should do that, and you should dedicate yourself to it, but you've got to start down the road of the 10,000 hours.
Now, a couple of years ago, I calculated I put in about 35,000 hours, which is why...
I never shut up.
So why I can sort of think on my feet and come up with useful stuff to say, deal with a variety of topics, like I've gone through the therapy, I've gone through the philosophy, I've gone through the self-knowledge, I've gone through the business, I've gone through the integrity, I've gone through the writing, the creativity, the poetry, the novels, the plays, I was an actor, like I've just gone through a wide variety of things that I think give me a fairly good ability to do what I'm doing.
And I don't know that travel did that much for me.
I mean, lots of people travel and they're idiots, right?
And I write about this in a novel of, you know, that he went to travel in the hopes of substituting experience for wisdom.
And, you know, lots of people go all over the world and I met them when I did travel, you know.
Oh, yeah, I've been traveling around for like 12 years, man.
It's been great.
And it's like, and what have you learned?
Spanish chicks are easy and it really doesn't matter where you sleep as long as you get a good night's sleep.
Alright!
You have come and gone as a philosophy show host.
So, these are things.
I mean, I was doing speeches in my car long before I started recording them.
I was just practicing how to talk about philosophy.
Not because I had any plan.
I just wanted to.
And I wrote books on philosophy when I had absolutely no hope of publishing anything just because I wanted to write.
I wrote a whole book, actually half a book, no three quarters of a book about an island that erupted in the middle of the Pacific Ocean that was claimed by two guys who happened to be anarchists and how they went about building a free society and what it looked like and what the reaction of the world was to it and all that kind of stuff.
I had no conceivable avenue, but Saturdays, my wife would go to work, and I would go to the coffee shop, and I would just write that stuff with no goal, no hope, no idea of how it might ever get published.
It turned out that with this technology, it did.
It's just a matter of you've just got to keep practicing and keep working at this stuff.
Don't back down from any conversations.
Don't fear any topics.
Expose yourself to all the ridiculousness that people can heap upon you.
And I think through that process of knowing what is right, doing what is right, and then learning how to communicate effectively about what is right, you will end up with something, I think, of real value to say.
But if you're just looking at the goal and not looking at the methodology, it's impossible to get anything done.
And you know when someone is going to get something done?
When they're actually taking the necessary steps.
You know, somebody buys a diet book, You don't think they're about to lose weight.
Somebody goes and, hey, I just ordered an exercise machine over the internet.
You know that they're just creating a little space for spiders to catch bed mites under the bed.
But when somebody's actually taking practical steps to achieve a goal, then that person has a chance.
Not a big chance, but it's a chance.
And so if you can figure out the necessary steps to achieve what you want to achieve in life and actually just start doing them knowing it's going to be a long haul and a difficult haul.
And the more attractive what it is that you want to do is, the harder it's going to be.
It's like that old line from A League of Their Own.
The woman says about Major League Baseball, man, this is really hard.
And Tom Hanks says, well, of course it is.
Otherwise, everyone would be doing it, right?
I mean, what I get to do is I feel incredibly privileged to do it.
To a large degree, I set my own hours.
I set my own projects.
I don't have a boss.
I can work from home.
And it's an incredible privilege.
And I get to talk about the most important things in the known universe with the greatest listeners in media.
It's an incredible privilege.
I mean, who wouldn't want to be doing what I'm doing?
Is there anything else that I can add to that?
I think that...
I mean, I think you covered so many things.
Like, I mean, personally, speaking from personal experience here, like, I have...
I mean, I do have a decent amount of experiences, I think, for somebody my age.
But at the same time, when I look at people...
Like, I compare myself to people like you, for example.
And I see, like...
I don't have anywhere near the experience that you've accumulated over your years.
So I feel like if I put anything out there, it wouldn't be that great.
Just because of the fact, who's this 24-year-old kid basically telling me about life?
Does that make sense?
Well, yeah.
Telling someone about life is not what philosophy is about.
You can come up with rigorous and fantastic arguments to do with philosophy now.
I mean, a lot of the great advances in science are from younger people.
In fact, if you've not made your big splash in science by the age of 25, you're not going to make a big splash in science by the time you're 95, right?
So youth and energy, don't underestimate that.
You don't need to sort of Intangible accumulation of years.
Like, you know, you can be a sailboat without four feet of barnacles on your hull.
You don't need to just slowly accumulate stuff over time.
You can really focus on producing great arguments, gathering important data, presenting all of that.
That's going to be really important.
So it's not like you have to wait 10 years before you start doing anything.
And I guarantee you, I guarantee you that you are leagues ahead of where I was when I was 24.
So I'm not trying to say don't do it or wait for some intangible time in the future.
What I'm saying is figure out what you want to communicate, practice communicating for a while, and then practice communicating with it to people, and then practice communicating it with people in general through some sort of internet media.
But you don't need to sort of just, well, you know, once I go to Thailand, I'll be a philosopher, right?
That's not, I mean, I'm not saying that's your argument, but there's no intangible experience that you need to develop that's going to allow you to become a philosopher.
It's just practicing the very rigorous steps and actions that you need to take to be an effective communicator.
Study the communicators that you love the best.
People make fun of me for a queen, which I understand.
I mean, it's not funny.
But I understand it.
But I have learned an incredible amount from Freddie Mercury.
Freddie Mercury was an unbelievably great communicator.
He was very relaxed on stage.
I've learned from Bill Cosby where he said, don't let them see that you're working, just have a conversation.
But Freddie Mercury...
Gave everything to his performances.
He held nothing back.
He was incredibly passionate, incredibly inclusive, and ferociously concentrated in what he was doing.
I've learned an incredible amount from him about commitment and inclusiveness and concentration.
What's the example of something you've learned?
Oh, you mean sort of like more specifically?
Yeah.
Don't be afraid.
Don't be afraid of passion in what it is that you're doing.
I mean, that man threw himself into everything that he did with incredible amounts of passion.
Don't be afraid of being soft and gentle.
You know, when he imitates some Spanish singer on Who Needs You, he's incredibly soft and gentle and vulnerable in his singing.
Don't be afraid when time is for grand passion for putting that out there.
And don't be afraid of people who think that because you're popular, you must be shallow.
That music is some of the most complicated music that has come out since the classical period.
I mean, it is incredibly complicated what it is that they did with some of their songs, and some of their songs are not so complicated.
But the range of...
Don't be afraid of different styles, right?
I mean, Queen went into...
They did blues, they did folk, they did pop, they did rock, they did disco, they did...
Spanish guitars.
They did...
Freddie wrote a song about his fucking cat.
I mean, it's ridiculous, right?
They just went for every style.
They did ragtime.
I mean, there was almost no style that you could do in music that they didn't do.
Which is me, don't limit yourself to any particular kinds of topics.
You know, whatever you guys want to talk about, I will try and provide some coherent response to.
So, you know, breath, depth, passion, commitment.
Commitment I learned also from listening to John Oliver, a comedian.
He was doing a show called The Bugle with Andy something or other.
And Andy started doing some joke that wasn't going that well.
And John Oliver was like, no, commit, finish it, commit, finish it.
And that's true.
You go in, in for a penny, in for a pound, as they used to say, right?
If you're going to go and do something, then you fucking commit to it.
And you just see it through.
And that energy will get you over the rough stuff.
But if you stop and start doubting and hesitating yourself in midair, you're just going to fall.
It's like the Flintstones.
They run off the fucking bridge and they don't fall until they look down.
Well, don't look down!
Just commit to whatever it is that you're doing.
So...
And of course I've learned from other communicators as well.
But of course I have to develop what is mine.
You know, there's a great temptation in philosophy, and you will get lots of kudos and points in philosophy for being as detached and ironic and unemotional as Socrates.
And Confucius and Lao Tzu and people like Lao Tzu.
People like that who put out this whole I don't care fundamentally vibe.
I'm above it all and so on.
And I think that's bullshit.
I think that, you know, what a great argument that is.
Socrates is bullshit, man.
Well, I find this kind of annoying.
I find it's quite annoying because it basically says that passions are the enemy of reason.
That the purpose of Your reason is to overcome your passions.
That is a fundamentally religious argument and Socrates denied that he was an atheist.
He was religious and It is to say that the body is the devil's and the mind is God's.
And the emotions come from the body and therefore the emotions are the opposite of the virtue which comes from God, which is the mind.
This mind-body dichotomy is so boring and so old.
And why?
Why is it necessary?
If you are a secularist, if you are not superstitious, if you are not religious, then the body is the mind.
Thought is the body.
The body is reason.
And oftentimes when we deny...
Our emotions, we deny our rationality, because the emotions can pick up on things that the reason...
Emotion is forward-looking, reason is usually backwards-looking.
And we can't drive by looking through the rearview mirror.
The emotions can pick up things, and Malcolm Gladwell's book, Blink, is a great proof of this.
To deny emotions is to deny connection, and also to deny emotions is to deny happiness.
And if the purpose of life is happiness, as Aristotle wrote...
If the purpose of philosophy is happiness, and happiness is an emotion, how on earth can philosophy be opposed to emotion?
Since the whole fucking purpose of philosophy is an emotion.
Come on, people!
I mean, the whole purpose of this drive is to get to New York.
There's no such thing as New York.
What?
Which is it?
The whole purpose of this drive, which is a virtuous drive, is to get to New York.
New York is evil.
We should never go there.
I think you need to revisit your MapQuest page.
So I've had to sort of try and develop things.
You obviously don't want to be perceived as grandiose, but you have to have big ambitions.
You want to make fun of yourself, but you don't want to reduce your authority.
These are all complicated things and challenging things I've had to navigate myself.
You want to be confrontational when it's necessary and important, but you don't want to be alienating and off-putting to people.
That is a real challenge.
It's a real balancing act.
I believe that I know the answers to certain things, but...
The purpose is not for me to know the answer, but for the audience to know the answer.
Sometimes the purpose is not for the person I'm talking to, to get the answer, but for everyone who listens to the show.
So when you're having a conversation with an individual, if that individual doesn't understand what you're saying, There's no benefit to anybody else.
Like if I'm just sitting with you in a coffee shop and no one else is listening and you fail to understand something I'm communicating, then that conversation is a net loss.
Nobody else benefits.
But if you're having a public conversation that is recorded and so on, Then that's a different matter.
If I'm just having a debate with you privately, that's a different matter than having a debate publicly.
Because having a debate publicly, the important thing is not that I convince the other person, which is very unlikely, but the important thing is that I present an argument that is clear to the audience and they can then judge who is the better person and so on, or who's making the better arguments.
So there's a lot in a show like this that is a real challenge.
I don't want to pretend that I'm playing small because I'm not playing small.
But I don't want to turn people off because I appear just insane, like completely grandiose.
So if I'm perceived as grandiose and insane...
Then people are going to be turned off.
If I pretend that I'm playing small, then people are going to be less interested in what it is that I'm doing.
So it is a very complicated balancing act, and I review it in my own mind and prepare for these kinds of things so that I can be big without being crazy, so that I can be self-effacing without being self-erasing.
So that I can have effective communications with an audience as a whole rather than with each individual specific person, but I need to focus on each individual specific person.
So there's a lot that's really challenging that comes out of some very complicated things that need to be done.
Yeah, it doesn't look like work, and that can be kind of deceptive.
But there's a huge amount of preparation and knowledge that goes into these kinds of things.
A huge amount of instinct plus reason plus goals plus plans plus sensitivity needing to know how to get to the future without recognizing that we're a long way from there.
I have certain beliefs about what is true, even if people don't agree with me, but I also don't want to fit people's experience into what I believe is true, because I need to be able to change what is necessary to change.
So I will say to people, like I said to this guy, was your father aggressive?
He said yes, and that was part of a theory that I had.
But I don't want to make his response fit into the theory, because I'm an empiricist first and foremost.
Now, an empiricist is going to have hypotheses and theories about what is true and what is going to happen, and I need to ask questions in pursuit of that, but not lead the person and drag them behind my theories.
So the first woman who called in said, well, I have a great relationship with my mother.
I had some doubt about that for reasons that I think I explained fairly well.
But at the same time, I don't want to just tell the woman, you don't have a good relationship with your mother because of X, Y, and Z, so don't imagine you do.
Because I need to be open to the possibility that there's something I don't understand.
I can't just go and shoehorn everything into what I think is true or what I believe is true.
I need to be in pursuit of that.
I need to be in negotiation with that, with people.
Even if I know 100% sure that I'm right.
I still can't just go around shoehorning people's experience because she doesn't believe that I'm right.
So I can't just go around shoehorning.
So I'm going to ask questions, give my perspective, tell what I think, but not bring the truth out.
Now, if somebody says, as a later caller did, that you can talk about what's best for an individual and that's utilitarianism, as he's sort of putting it together as what he said, well, I have to say that that's not true.
That's not a negotiation.
That simply isn't true.
So, yeah, there's a lot of complicated stuff that goes on in making a show like this work, a lot of instinct, a lot of preparation, a lot of understanding about what is necessary and possible, and that's why I get the big buck.
Hopefully more than once soon.
And if you'd like to help out with that, of course, fdrurl.com forward slash donate.
Now, I'm sorry that I can't finish this off with the caller.
Unfortunately, we had a Skype crash, but I'm sure that Microsoft will fix that.
Very soon.
So thanks everybody.
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