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June 4, 2013 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
38:18
2400 Negotiation Part 3: When It Wont Work
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Alright, well, this is part three of negotiation and I wanted to talk a little bit about when negotiation is not going to work.
So, just to briefly reiterate, we have a couple of standards for negotiating, that negotiation is the creative examinations of solutions that are better than the original positions of the two parties in disagreement.
So, you've got position A, position B, and there could be solution X or position X, which is better than A or B for each person.
So, the example given was, you want $1,000 off the car, you end up with $2,000 in upgrades.
Better for the dealer, better for you.
You're happier than your original position, and the dealer is happier than the original position he had.
So, this is...
And all of this requires some significant empathy and figuring out what the other person wants.
Like, the true motives behind a negotiation.
The true motives behind a negotiation.
So...
If your wife gets pregnant and you have your first kid, you live in a condo, she wants a four-bedroom house, let's say.
So maybe you don't want a four-bedroom house.
Maybe you're fine with the condo for a bit or maybe you want a townhouse, something smaller or whatever it is.
Well, you're in a situation of conflict and there you have a challenge.
A significant challenge to overcome.
If she gets what she wants, you are unhappy.
If you get what you want, she is unhappy.
So you have to sort of look at third possibilities for housing, other creative ways of figuring this stuff out.
But the important thing is to figure out the real need behind the desire for the big-ass expensive house.
What is it for?
Is it because she grew up in a place that was too small?
Is it because she grew up in a place that was really big and she wants to recreate that?
Is there some vanity?
You know, like she wants a big place to show that she's arrived and has status and so on.
Is she thinking, well, you know, if I have a baby, I'm going to be home a lot more.
I want the house to be really comfortable.
I mean, there's lots of things that could be going on to drive this kind of stuff.
Maybe her sister has a big house.
I don't know.
These could be any number of things.
But once you figure out the real reason, and this is what negotiating is about as well, you don't just magically come up with plan X, you know, the one that's superior to A and B for both parties.
You have to really try and figure out what's going on with the other person and why they have that particular position.
Now, buying a car is not that complicated.
You want to save some money and so on.
But when it comes to your wife wanting a big house for the birth of the new child, does she want to live in a neighborhood where she wants to make sure there are other children around?
Does she want a neighborhood which is not on a main street?
Does she want a neighborhood where the parking...
It could be any number of reasons.
And does she associate having a big house with all of that stuff, right?
So there are lots of reasons that your wife might want the big house.
And if you either reject the big house or accept the big house, you actually don't get to find out what is really driving the decision.
And finding out what is really driving the decision is really, really, really important.
I mean, I can't overemphasize this.
If you love people, it really doesn't matter.
What you end up doing together, it doesn't matter.
Whether you live in a big house or a small house or a comfortable car, it really doesn't matter.
What matters is that you continue to explore the wonderful garden of the other.
You know, we are wild and tamed continents of our own histories, imaginations, possibilities, thoughts, and emotions.
You can spend a lifetime exploring the heart and mind of someone you love and still not be done because the very act of exploring changes that which you are examining.
So, people get hung up on, is it a big house or a small house, and try and make that decision.
Or, it's a compromise, a three-bedroom house that's small.
That's not important.
You know, if you continue to focus on why someone you love has a particular position or something that they want, if you continue to focus on that person, what is driving them, what is motivating them, what is going on in those gorgeous minds of those we love who surround us, what an incredible opportunity for self-knowledge.
What an incredible opportunity for self-knowledge.
And so, if you have a conflict with that, you keep asking the question.
I want to understand why this is a very important thing for you.
And forget about whether you should or shouldn't.
That doesn't matter whether you should or shouldn't buy the big house.
The question is, what's driving it?
How fascinating?
How cool?
How interesting is that?
To try and figure out why someone has a particular position.
I remember years ago going to visit a girlfriend's parents' place.
And she was really tense and freaked out the whole time.
The sort of getting ready and told me a million things to do and so on.
And I was mildly irritated, but just kind of curious.
And as it turns out, her mom is like hypercritical.
Poor girl.
Couldn't even make toast correctly with her mom, yammering in her ear about how she was doing it all wrong and getting the crumbs here and putting the toast the wrong way up and the toast needs to be more towards the middle.
I mean, Micromanaging like a chainsaw to the head.
And so, you know, why is it important to you that I be perfect in front of your mom?
Well, because your mom is a scary witch who criticizes everything that moves.
And it was a house of truly incomprehensible rules.
I spilled a little juice when I was pouring it and I grabbed a piece of paper towel to wipe it up And, boy, you wouldn't think that would ever cause a problem.
Little spill, wiped it up, put it in the garbage.
It turns out, you see, that the mom, that this was her favorite paper towel from the U.S., from Wegmans, where they used to live, or near where they used to live.
And that's her favorite paper towel.
And so it wasn't to be used for everyday things.
And that caused a big problem.
And I actually really almost laughed at the time.
Okay, so that's pretty impressive.
You have a house where you have paper towels out, but they're not supposed to.
A good china, I can understand, something sealed away in a glass case.
Furniture with plastic on it.
Yep, got that.
A rug with a rope around it.
Yep, I'm all over it.
Paper towel that shouldn't be used.
That's sitting right over this.
Anyway, that's amazing.
That's just amazing.
Poor, poor girl.
Anyway, so, why is it important?
Not like, why is it important like it shouldn't be, but genuinely, what does a big house mean to you?
What does your position mean to you?
And I think it's important when you're having a conflict to someone to say, well, why is this important to you?
And let's not talk about what we should do.
Let's just figure out why it's important to you.
And also, let me try to figure out why not having a big house is important to me.
Right?
Because you don't know if you're being driven by reasonable things.
You don't know if you're being driven by irrational things or crazy things or historical things or vanity things or dangerous things.
You don't know.
I mean, why did the housing...
One of the reasons the housing crisis occurred in the U.S. is so many people hate their jobs.
They wanted to get rich off real estate because they hate their jobs.
Well, they probably hate not having their jobs even more now, right?
But that's the important thing.
Like, if you...
Oh, we've got to go and flip houses.
We've got to go...
Hey, I don't want to go and do that because I really love my job.
I love you people who make this job possible.
Kissy, kissy, bang, bang.
Whereas if people had explored and said, well, why is it that we really so desperately want to buy and flip up houses or buy a house that's really expensive and then assume that's going to make money for us?
Well, because they really hate their jobs.
And if you examine or explore that, then you may end up not making very dangerous mistakes about what size house to buy.
So, to me, the opportunity for self-knowledge that arises in a conflict is just too deep and wide a gold nugget not to pan for.
I mean, you know it's in there, you know it's not far if both people are being honest.
And, of course, in true UPB style, you must, of course, be willing to submit to the same cross-examinations about your motives as you want to submit others to.
Why is this important to you?
Shortly after I got married to Christina, I got a job.
I thought it was not going to be a particularly long-term proposition because my plan was to, you know, I was in the middle of getting a rave review for my novel.
I was going to get that published, make some decent coin and, you know, be a fiction writer because that's my thing, man.
I like the scribbles of stories, man.
Philosophy is my plan.
C? No, D. F? X? Zeta?
I don't know.
Something like that.
But as a backup gig, it's actually pretty great.
So, I got this job and I had been not working for, I don't know, a year and a half, maybe two years, because I'd been working on writing books.
And I didn't really want to go back to work, but I did.
And actually, no, at this point I was beginning to doubt that the whole writing thing was going to pay off.
But anyway, so what I did was, I had a bunch of clothes that I'd had from, you know, work I'd done before, or places I'd worked before, but that's when I was an owner.
Now I was an employee.
And I didn't want to go and buy new clothes.
I hate buying clothes anyway.
I mean, I wish the whole world would just switch track pants and t-shirts.
I'm never going to be attractive, so I might as well be comfortable.
That's a great line from Seinfeld.
But...
Christina really was strongly urging me to get new clothes.
That's a great quote from Emerson.
Was it Emerson about that?
Emerson trusts any venture that requires the purchasing of new clothes.
But she was right.
It was kind of ragged stuff when I was an executive, so I really needed to go and get some nice clothes.
But I was kind of resisting it.
And she got frustrated and I got frustrated.
And we had a great conversation about How her parents spent money, how my mom spent money, what clothes meant to me, and what presentation meant to me, my resentment of the world for requiring pressed pants and ties, of all the retarded things in the world.
Hey, I got a great idea.
Men can wear a pretend noose for the rest of their natural porn lives.
I bet you that'll be comfortable.
Wait, wait.
Wait till it's 38 degrees Celsius.
And then see if it's really comfortable to constrict the blood flow to your head.
That sounds great.
Oh, and really, really make sure that those shoes are like the Steve Martin vice pliers on your heels.
That's super important.
And pants to pinch every time you sit down.
And belts.
Belts, super important.
Because...
Otherwise, what the hell is going to dig into your belly button when you sit down?
Well, nothing.
We can't have that.
It's got to be really uncomfortable.
Oh, and be sure that we have shirts to show pit stains so that you have to have four pounds of antiperspirant and an undershirt just to give you that extra special blast of heat when you walk to and from the car.
Very, very important.
So I didn't really want to...
And buying new clothes.
Oh, God.
Oh, God.
I mean, I look retarded in pants no matter what.
I should really just be strolling around the world in Daisy Duke's shorts.
Oh, sorry for that mental image.
But still, it's true.
Pants always look ridiculous on me.
Jeans are not too bad, but khakis.
Give me a break.
I look like I'm trying to jujitsu kick my way out of a burlap tent.
Anyway...
So I bought the clothes.
And she was right, but it wasn't about get the clothes or don't get the clothes.
It was about why is it important for her that I get the clothes, and why was it important for me to not get the clothes?
We had like hours and hours of conversation about that, and it was delightful.
I mean, it was delicious.
It was wonderful to get to know more about her, get to know more about myself, have those real conversations, you know, which you kind of wish you could have eight hours a day, but I can't anyway.
You know, there's lists.
Shit needs to get done.
Anyway, so when you have position A, position B, the important thing is the opportunity for knowledge, self-knowledge and knowledge of someone you love about why they have position A. Why do you even have this position?
Why do you even have this position in the first place?
You know, it's a tough thing for some time to surmount your circumstances, your original circumstances.
Right, so I was talking with Mike the other day, operations at freedomainradio.com, the heart, brains, and soul of the outfit.
I was talking with Mike the other day and just saying, I don't really feel this so much anymore, but I felt this certainly at the beginning of my business career.
It's like, I'm just some, you know, poor kid from the welfare tracks who nobody took any particular notice of intellectually, who was a shy and silent, bookworm-y type.
I am just some kid from a broke-ass, single-parent neighborhood.
Just some poor kid from the wrong side of the tracks.
And here I am.
I've changed the world through philosophy.
It's, you know, it's a little hard when you think about it.
And so some of that growth anxiety, like when you achieve something new in life, when you achieve something better in life, that is a challenge, right?
And that can give you all sorts of positions that aren't particularly rational or just based upon I have vastly outgrown the circumstances of my origins.
I have vastly outstripped everyone that I knew.
No, knew.
I have to put the words together.
I have vastly outstripped in terms of happiness and progress everyone that I knew growing up.
I mean, I have the only happy marriage that I know.
I have the only truly rewarding career that I know of.
I have the best friends that I know about.
Again, I haven't spoken to my childhood friends in some time, but I mean, last I heard, last I talked, things were not going swimmingly.
I think it sort of feels like I'm the only one who made it out.
There's that great line.
I'll paraphrase from The Great Gatsby.
We are born ceaselessly back, boats against the current, into the past.
You know, we carry our bedrooms like ghostly walls around us, our childhood bedrooms.
The childhood curses and scoldings and yellings and abuses surround us like a black symphony of red-eyed birds.
And they follow us.
You know, that old joke that somebody walks around, there's a rain cloud right over their head.
Well, that rain cloud is called childhood.
And it's very hard to leave the mental space.
Easy to leave the physical space.
Very hard to leave the mental space.
The internalization of abuse is designed to be a roving prison, a prison that walks with us.
That's the hard one to get out.
The walls within seem to almost grow higher with time for many people rather than lower.
Just try imagining yourself with a happy history.
What would that be like?
Imagine that you'd had a very, if you didn't, imagine if you'd had a very, very happy childhood.
What would that be like for you?
To experience that sense of, that kind of being, that reality.
Imagine.
Imagine you'd had a really happy childhood.
Hard to imagine, isn't it?
Who you'd be or how you'd be if you'd had a really happy childhood.
That's how embedded it is.
We can only break the chains, it seems, sometimes.
If we chain to a wall, we can only break the chains at the wall end, and then we drag them around with us at our end.
It's the third and fourth legs of the chains that come with us.
And slowly, one by one, we can pry the links off until we have only the manacles, and then we must starve ourselves of repetitive history in order to slip out of the manacles.
To me, at least, the first step in truly escaping the childhood dungeons was simply to not be in situations that were similar in any way to my childhood.
Everybody wants to come and make these ethereal walls real again for you.
There's no shortage of applicants for that, for rematerializing the walls and the chains and the torturers.
So, you have to make sure you don't have people in your life, at least while you're recovering, who remind you or re-invoke things that happened to you as a child.
We live in graveyards.
The dead never die.
They sleep.
They sleep if they do not hear the dog whistles of repetition.
If they do not hear the call of a return to their abusive stations, the dead can't be killed, but they can be lulled.
They can be lulled through peace and love.
And that, of course, means not having anybody around you who's harmful.
If you stubbed your toe yesterday, you have to be extra sure that you do not stub your toe today, because it will hurt triple.
So when you negotiate, there's a fantastic opportunity for self-knowledge.
But self-knowledge means surrendering positions and focusing on wisdom.
If you're going to submit to self-knowledge as a way of solving disputes.
And once you figure out why you have a particular position on things, Then you can figure out...
Well, you don't even have to figure out then the emotional energy that centers and hardens those positions, that turns a position into a dogmatism that makes things win-lose.
Once you know why you have a particular position, then you can very easily...
It happens of its own accord.
There's a relaxing and a dismantling.
Of the exoskeleton of dogmatism.
And you can focus on the process.
And you can find out, is it that important to you?
Is the big house that important to you?
Or does it have an emotional connotation that signifies self-esteem in some fashion?
Like, did your mom always say, oh, those big houses are so beautiful.
Like, is it her desire for a big house that is motivating you?
Is it status?
Is it Wanting better neighbors?
Is it, you know, maybe the better schools if you're, well, don't send your kids to public school, but you know what I mean.
These are all very important questions.
Because if your position is, I want a big house, that cannot be negotiated.
I mean, you either get it or you don't, right?
Binary ain't negotiation.
Get it or don't is not a negotiation.
Get a slightly smaller, get a three-bedroom house instead of a four-bedroom house.
That's not really negotiation either.
Because that's just a grudging compromise.
Negotiation is, for me, a big house is a safe neighborhood.
You know, maybe because there were bullies and gangs in my neighborhood as a kid.
I want a safe neighborhood.
You know, maybe that's what's really driving someone.
And usually it's not one thing.
It's a cluster of things.
But you figure out what they are.
See, then you have a goal, not a position.
And your goal is a safe neighborhood.
Now, your position is, I want a big house.
That's not negotiable.
You get it or you don't, or you're grudging to give something up and resent it.
That's not a negotiation.
Now, if you want to achieve a goal...
That's a very different thing.
Because if your goal is safety, well, there's six million ways that you can get a safer place to live without having to buy some McMansion.
So, if safety is important, then that's something else that can be done.
You can live in a cul-de-sac, you can get a security system, you can get a dog, you can go into a neighborhood where there's a neighborhood watch, or you can study the crime rates in various neighborhoods and so on.
If safety is your goal, similarly, if a good school is your goal, then you can buy a smaller house, And save the money and homeschool, unschool, send your kid to private school, find out whether...
So then you have some sort of compromise.
Smaller house, but a better school.
Now, if your goal is vanity and status, that's a little harder to...
That's a little harder to defend, right?
I mean, that's not a very mature or wise thing to do.
But maybe there's other ways you can satisfy the need for status, you know?
Save $100,000 on the house and maybe spend a couple of grand on a really lovely ring.
You're still way up and you have then status that goes with you everywhere rather than one you have to invite people around to see.
So, when you explore why somebody is motivated to achieve something, why their position is their position, what emotional drivers are behind it, then you switch from position to goals.
Now, goals you can negotiate because goals are open-ended.
If I say, I want to go to this hotel in the Barbados, Well, I either get to go there or I don't.
It's binary, and you can't really negotiate binary.
I mean, you can only bully binary, or manipulate, or whine, or, you know, maybe somebody around just indulgent or whatever, but you can't really negotiate.
But if I say, I really want to go vacation someplace sunny, you know, nice beaches, good snorkeling, dolphins would be great.
You know, there are thousands and thousands of places in the world that meet that description in just about every conceivable price range.
So, if I have a goal, like I want to go someplace sunny, that's different from my position.
I want to go to this hotel in the Barbados.
So, negotiations can only really occur with goals, not positions.
And the purpose of self-knowledge It's to convert a position into a goal so that you can negotiate about it.
So there's some freedom, some creativity, some options.
The possibility of plan X. That is better.
Than anything you thought of before.
But the conversion of positions to goals requires humility, and it requires exploration, and it requires curiosity, and it requires a steadfast determination to avoid beating your head against the walls of other people's positions.
Because positions are win-lose, positions are binary, positions are black and white, and positions resist negotiation.
Now, the interesting thing is that people who are wedded to positions will view, in general, the attempt to convert a position to a goal as manipulative.
I'll say that again.
This is very important.
People who are wedded, who have the habit of beating people up or submitting to positions, win-lose, they will view, generally, any attempt to convert a position to a goal as manipulative.
And they will attempt to resist any attempt to convert their position into a goal By calling it manipulative and attacking it or viewing it as a hostile, right?
So, a couple of years ago, I had a conversation with a determinist.
Of course, only one of us was talking, the other one was just playing a recording.
But that determinist, I kept asking him about his childhood because I was attempting to understand the position of determinism relative to its psychological goal.
What is the purpose of determinism?
I mean, I've talked openly about the purpose of free will in my thinking, or hopefully in good thinking.
And, I mean, wouldn't it just be insane for me To attempt to improve the world by changing people's minds and then say it's impossible to improve the world and I cannot change people's minds.
I mean, that would just be ridiculous.
People get surprised when I'm into free will and it's like, dude, I found a nutritionist who's not into huge amounts of salt and fat.
I found a lung doctor who's not a fan of smoking.
What?
I mean, anybody who knows that I'm an empiricist, anybody who knows anything about what I do would understand that Free will is the only logically consistent position for me to take with everything that I'm doing.
It doesn't mean it's right.
It just means that it follows absolutely as night follows day from everything that I'm doing, attempting to improve the world by changing people's minds.
Well, improvement, changing minds, all of that is free will.
But I was asking him about his childhood.
It turned out his parents drugged him and locked him in rooms and gave him no choices and this and that.
And so on, right?
So, determinism, in my particular view, and I've had a couple of conversations with people like this over the years, determinism is a way of avoiding the agony of immorality, either generally one's parents or other caregivers, priests and teachers, or if the person has done something egregiously immoral, like irreparably immoral, then determinism gives them a relief, right?
So, if your parents were brutal to you and took away all your choices and punished you randomly and so on, Then, if you see them as human beings who are making choices, you're going to feel very angry.
And if you see them as robots fulfilling inevitable programming, you might feel sad, but anger would then be an inappropriate response.
So, determinism is a way of drugging the natural anger of injustice by assuming that malefactors are robots who cannot do anything other than what they're programmed to do.
And to make them moral agents would be as ridiculous as saying, it wasn't me that lost the video game, it was my mouse and keyboard.
I was only doing what they told me to.
That would be a mad position to take, right?
And of course, if you yourself have done something egregiously immoral, and you don't want to face up to that, I mean, that's not a lot of fun, then if you can convince yourself that everything was determined and you had no choice, then there's relief in that.
And I genuinely believe that to be true.
Determinism is a defense mechanism, without a doubt.
Without a doubt, at least in all my experience, simply because determinists display all the characteristics of defense mechanism.
They minimize, they avoid, they refuse to address arguments, they change the subject, they strawman, all of this stuff is pure defensiveness.
Which means that they are emotionally wedded to a position for reasons that they're not conscious of.
I'm emotionally wedded to a position I'm conscious of.
I talked about it very openly.
And also, if determinism is false, of course, then these people have cut themselves off from the only emotion that would genuinely help them overcome their trauma, which is anger.
The biggest single predictor Well studied, this phenomenon.
The biggest single predictor of whether somebody is going to re-offend as a child abuser if they were abused as children is whether or not they've gotten angry at their parents.
This is why I am a no compromise person when it comes to getting angry at your parents.
In the same way that if I had a pill to cure cancer and someone had cancer, I'd be a no compromise, take this goddamn pill.
For God's sake, just take the pill.
It's important to do what works.
And anger is the great antidote to child abuse.
It is the...
It is the break-the-chain sword slice that stops the endless, useless clinking repetition of horrifying histories.
Sorry, but then be the facts.
And determinism blunts anger.
And so, it tends to repeat child abuse.
Another reason why I have a problem with it is it tends to create repetition of child abuse.
If determinism is a product of child abuse, badly processed, and determinism blunts anger, which logically it must.
We don't get angry at machines unless we're idiots, right?
But...
If determinism is a product of child abuse, which it universally seems to be to me, if determinism is a defense against the processing of legitimate suffering, and Jung says that all mental problems fundamentally derive from an unwillingness to experience legitimate suffering.
So if determinism is a result of child abuse, if determinism blends anger, then determinism is a key factor in replicating child abuse, which means determinism is highly correlated as a risk factor for abusing children.
Again, sorry, these are the syllogisms.
You can argue with the facts, but you can't argue with the logic.
If determinism results from child abuse, if determinism blunts anger, and if anger is the best way to prevent a repetition of child abuse, then determinism is a significant risk factor for the re-abuse of the next generation.
These are facts, my friends.
So, if determinism is a position, and positions always have to be manipulated, they always have, you have to manipulate, because it's a position, you have to have that position, because you don't know why, and it's a defense mechanism against pain that you are unwilling to experience, or anger you're unwilling to experience.
So, a position must be emotionally manipulated, and defended, and avoided, and straw-manned, and ad hominems, and trolled, and all the stuff that goes on when you have an emotionally volatile position for shameful reasons.
Well, then if you attempt to find out the goals which are around emotional self-protection and particularly a desire to avoid confronting those who've done you evil in your life by pretending that they're machines and that it's immature to get angry at them, well, Then you're going to resist any attempt to get to the root.
I mean, defense, of course, avoids any attempt to get to the root of the defense.
The defense is like a living organism in your brain.
It's like a meme.
It's like a genetic material.
It wants to survive and reproduce.
And when you get to the goal behind the defense mechanism, the defense dissipates.
It doesn't want to die.
It doesn't want to get banished.
It doesn't want to cease to exist.
Your mind as a whole wants it to do that, but...
It itself has developed its own survival mechanisms, its own defense mechanisms.
It is a microcosm of a living entity.
And with the determinants of finding out that there is these childhood traumas particularly involving no choice and particularly involved in non-confrontation with parents, with abusive parents, Well, then the goal is I need to avoid confronting my own feelings about my childhood.
I need to avoid confronting my parents.
I need to avoid getting angry.
I need to avoid X, Y, and Z. Determinism solves all of these desperate defensive emotional needs for me and therefore I must maintain that position no matter what logic is thrown at it because you can't reason a man out of something he wasn't reasoned into, right?
Only self-knowledge can undo defenses.
Rationality can't.
Because defenses are soffits.
They're just manipulators.
They're just prevaricators.
They don't work with reason and evidence.
Because defenses are explicitly around the avoidance of reason and evidence.
The reason you have defense is because you're avoiding reason and evidence.
You're avoiding reality.
And so, since defenses...
Are explicitly developed in a reaction to and to the avoidance of reason and evidence.
They are perfectly comfortable at avoiding reason and evidence.
Of course.
Of course they are.
That's what they do.
So when you are negotiating with someone, if you're trying to resolve a dispute with someone, attempt to put aside the results of the negotiation.
Put aside...
Who's right?
Who's wrong?
Who gets to win?
Who gets to lose?
Put aside all that emotional stuff.
Go for the knowledge that is underlying the position.
Go for the self-knowledge, the facts, the reality, the history, all the complicated emotional stuff that is going on underneath the defenses.
And it might take a while with people who are used to defensive language or defensive words.
Jackal language?
I can't remember.
Focus on that.
Now, when you get down to that level, you will find that...
You have gained two benefits.
One is that you'll find a resolution to the problem very quickly.
And number two, you have learned more about someone you love.
Number three, of course, is you'll get less frightened of conflicts in the future because conflicts genuinely become an opportunity for self-knowledge, greater intimacy, love, depth, passion.
It's not even great makeup sex that happens after you convert.
Positions into goals.
It's like joyous, interstellar, intimate sex.
So there's a little stick to hang on the...
A little carrot to hang on the stick at the end of the poll.
Poll.
Anyway, I believe I may be fragmenting.
Thank you so much, everyone, for listening.
I hope that this stuff is truly helpful.
And if you have intractable...
Conflicts.
Like, seriously, call me up.
We'll do listener convos about it, and we'll try and sort it out, see what we can do to convert this stuff.
And I hope that it will be helpful.
Thank you, thank you, thank you so much, everyone, for listening, for donating a minor...
I guess I'll do a proper show on this, but for those who are interested, a good update on my cancer diagnosis.
I appear to be relatively cancer-free.
I can't find anything.
That's good.
And not only that, but also...
I guess I just finished my second round of chemo, so only two more to go.
And the side effects have been really, really not so bad at all.
So thank you everyone so much.
Have yourself a wonderful, wonderful week.
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