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April 21, 2013 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:54:42

2369 Daniel Mackler Guest Hosts the Freedomain Radio Call In Show, 21 April 2013

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	All right.
	Hi, everyone.
	This is obviously not Stefan Molyneux from Freedom Main Radio.
	This is Michael DeMarco from Freedom Main Radio.
	And Stefan is currently traveling back from New York City, where he spoke last night at the Anarchy in NYC event.
	Apparently, he's a pretty big success.
	There are a couple hundred people there.
	I think Daniel was actually in attendance as well.
	Yeah, today we have a guest host.
	It's Daniel Mackler, who most people involved in the Freedom Main Radio community should be very well aware of.
	He's currently a filmmaker, a writer, and a musician, currently based in New York City.
	He previously worked for 10 years as a psychotherapist in New York, and his work focuses on the causes, consequences, and radical significance of childhood trauma.
	Daniel, thank you so much for being here today to guest host the Freedom Main Radio Sunday Show.
	Good to be here.
	It's been pretty interesting.
	I was like, how is this gonna go?
	I've never hosted a radio show.
	And then I realized, literally five minutes ago, as I was thinking about it, that I actually have done this before.
	In New York City, I was a DJ on an anarchist pirate radio station.
	Really?
	Yeah, in the East Village.
	And I totally forgot about it.
	I haven't done it since the late 90s.
	I hosted a children's radio show on Saturday mornings on a radio show called Steal This Radio, 88.7 FM. And it was closed down by the, I don't even, what was it called?
	Oh God, the federal broadcasting agency that...
	Oh, FCC. The FCC. They shut us down, yeah, because we were low wattage.
	We didn't have a license.
	And it was...
	So it ended up...
	The last couple of shows were being broadcast from a van around the East Village.
	So I was thinking, how ironic.
	It's good to be back.
	And I was thinking...
	At the end, there was risk that we could get arrested for it.
	And I was Apple Pious.
	That was my DJ name on that show.
	And...
	So it's good to be back in spirit, and it's wonderful to be here, and I'm really glad, I'm privileged, I feel really privileged to be able to be a guest host on the Sunday Call-In Show.
	And I got to meet Stefan for the first time yesterday.
	And that was...
	It was interesting.
	I talked to them, and I was like, what would it be like meeting him in person?
	Because I've heard a lot of his shows, and I've been a guest on his shows before, and I've talked to him on the telephone before, and he asked me that.
	I said, this is different.
	This isn't exactly what I expected.
	He said, well, what's different?
	What's it like?
	Because he said, I think I am kind of how I present on FDR is how I am in person.
	And I thought about it, and I was like, what is it?
	And I had one word for it.
	I said, you know what it is?
	You're more huggable in person.
	So, it was like, oh really?
	I was like, yeah, that's what it was.
	It was like, he's the kind of guy you could want to give a hug to.
	And I never really quite felt that on the show.
	So I was like, interesting.
	It's interesting the vibe people give off in person.
	So anyways, here we are.
	Really glad to be here.
	Willing to talk about anything and ready to get going.
	So I guess ready to take calls.
	Alright, great.
	Andrew, you're our first caller today.
	Hi Daniel.
	It's great to be talking to you.
	Nice to talk to you too.
	Two questions.
	The first one's a pretty quick question.
	I saw on your Facebook that you posted that you're getting ready to do podcasts.
	So I was wondering if you could tell us a little about that.
	Oh, that's a good question.
	It definitely dovetails with what's going on here, guest hosting this show, because I really actually have been inspired by Stefan, how many podcasts he does, that he does them, that people actually listen to them, and that it helps change people's lives.
	And I thought that's a medium that I would like to explore.
	The question is, I don't know exactly what I want to do.
	Part of my idea is I would like to interview people.
	And I've spent...
	In a lot of my adult life, professionally interviewing people as a therapist, but that's for a different purpose.
	That's to help people grow, and for their own sake specifically.
	Also, as a filmmaker, I've interviewed people, but that's basically to get them to reveal themselves so that I can use it in documentaries.
	In both cases, I was a very, very gentle interviewer.
	So the whole purpose was to nurture a relationship, to have people bring things out in a very safe environment where they could express themselves with no fear.
	So I was very much like a nurturing parent in both cases.
	I was thinking something different about the podcast I would like to do as an interviewer.
	There's just part of me that's like...
	I feel our world is in such crisis and I feel so many people are so dishonest and especially people in power that I just have this vision of getting people on who are really in power, who are really confident about their ideas, who are real thought leaders in the world and just grilling them and giving them the best of my energy to really question them and to see if I can expose the flaws in their logic to the best of my ability to do it.
	With the purpose of really getting at the truth.
	And I just feel like all these years I've had of interviewing people has given me a skill at really being able to get right at the heart of what's going on, what people's rationalizations and denials are and their defenses.
	And I have a good ability to piece together logics.
	I think that it's...
	I think I'd just be good at it somehow.
	And it would also just satisfy me.
	On the flip side, it's like, it's really not my personality to grill people.
	I don't really like to do it.
	And so that's the basic thing holding me back.
	Some people seem to really get a kick out of just grilling people.
	And for me, it's like, I don't like that, but I just somehow feel called to do it.
	And so I don't know that I'm actually ready to do it, but there's just some part of me that deeply wants to do it just for the sake of getting out proper information and And in a public way, exposing truth more.
	So that's my main idea.
	I feel like I've pretty much expressed what I believe in in my essays pretty well, so I don't necessarily feel the need to express my own point of view.
	And so I think that's my idea for doing podcasts, is to do an interview-based podcast series.
	Cool.
	That's sort of, yeah.
	And I don't know if that expresses it that well, but that's sort of my idea.
	Yeah.
	It actually, it does remind me of, I can't remember the guy's name, but there's a guy who would go in, he would like have interviews set up and sit with like a politician or something, and he would do kind of what you're talking about, and oh man, some of those guys would just get like angry and storm out, and he really like...
	Made them uncomfortable.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, and the thing is, it's like, I don't like doing that, but it's a funny thing, because in a strange way, I actually do have very powerful experience of interviewing people who are lying, and I've really only reserved that ability of mine to just grill the shit out of people for people who have really harmed me,
	and that's basically my parents and other, you know, relatives who are parental figures, my grandparents, I'm trying to think, my step-parents, I've given it to them.
	I've really blasted the hell out of them.
	And it was a fascinating experience because I realized I can do this.
	And it's like I'm way better at it than they are.
	Because to me, the truth is much stronger than the lies.
	And it's very interesting when the truth comes up against the lies, what really happens if you've got two people who are really both committed to expressing their point of view.
	And what I found in all cases is, this is at least from my perspective, but I think it was even more than from my perspective.
	I think it was pretty objectively true that when I was really going at people, like my parents, it was amazing what happened.
	Just how they crumbled and how they looked just...
	Foolish and immature and dishonest and unethical.
	And it was just like, wow, just for me to do that was such an amazing experience to really see that.
	And there were repercussions.
	They definitely took it out on me.
	They tried to destroy my life afterward in a lot of different ways.
	They lied about the interactions because none of it was recorded.
	Afterwards, they spun it into that I was crazy and I was this and I was that.
	Being there and seeing how it really was was quite amazing to really interview them in that way and to not let their lives pass.
	To not do a softball interview, to not be gentle about it.
	It's just to speak my mind and to go at people.
	And I don't want to be that hardcore with people on a show, but there's part of me that would like to for the sake of getting out the truth and changing the world.
	So I guess you have another question, Andrew?
	Yeah, I do.
	And actually what you're saying about sort of grilling parents sort of segues into it.
	So about three years ago, I sort of had that kind of interview where I had been exploring my history just by myself and really like thinking about the nature of my relationship with my parents and then I had like this sort of interview thing where I went in and I questioned them and it just didn't go well and so then I A
	little while after that, I just decided I was going to be done with them and not interact with them anymore.
	And now I'm in therapy and I'm...
	I'm like coming up on stuff in my history.
	So a therapist will ask me about like when certain things happened and I can't always answer exactly when those things were.
	So it came into my mind to...
	Send an email to my parents asking when certain events occurred.
	And I was just wondering if you had any thoughts or advice about that.
	Like some of my friends asked me like what I was feeling as I was writing the questions and sort of what I'm thinking I could get out of an answer from them.
	Right.
	And I'm not sure exactly.
	Wow.
	Wow, I have split feelings about that.
	That's a great question.
	It's something that actually that I go through right now at the present time because I haven't spoken with my parents in more than three years.
	And definitely there are times that things come up where I would like to know things.
	Like...
	I know my parents hired a black nanny when I was very little and she was abusive to me.
	And I would like to know more details about that.
	I really would like to know how old was I when they hired her, how many hours a day did they hire her for, how many days a week, things like this.
	And it's like, since I don't talk to my parents and I don't respond to their emails, I don't have a chance to ask them that.
	In a way, it's sort of left hanging, and it's nebulous.
	And that's...
	And both my parents are still alive, so I debate that.
	And for me, the trade-off is, like, I don't get the information, but then I don't have to deal with them.
	And I don't really want to deal with them at all.
	I don't want to talk to them.
	And it's not that I'm furious at them anymore, because I don't find myself particularly angry these days.
	I just...
	They're like a girlfriend who was horrible to me that I've broken up with, and I'm just like, I'm done with it.
	I don't want to see her again.
	And so in your case, I think it's like, obviously it's like you have a right to that information.
	It sounds like it would be very helpful.
	And it's a question of like, I guess, how much of a sacrifice it would be to try to get that information.
	And I guess I would formulate it, if it was my life, to do a cost-benefit analysis to see...
	Well, what's the benefit?
	What's the reality of getting this information from them?
	How useful will this information be?
	How necessary is it to my growth?
	And how much of a cost Would it be to get that?
	What will the consequences be?
	And so what I heard you say early on was, I don't know if I'm getting your words exactly right, but that you confronted them somehow and that it didn't go well.
	So I think that was something that questioned for me.
	I don't know if you feel comfortable talking about it, but I was curious.
	And I totally get it if you don't feel comfortable talking about it.
	When you said it didn't go well, are you comfortable to explain that a little bit more?
	Because that for me would be a key part in understanding a little bit more about your parents.
	Because I could think there would be some times where I would say to someone, listen, reaching out to your parents just sounds like a big toxic mess.
	And maybe the information is stuff that you can, through self-exploration, find enough about that so you don't really even need to interact with them.
	Your parents sound horrible.
	Whereas in other cases it might be like, you know, your parents did horrible things to you, but maybe they're reasonable enough that it's worth it to interact with them in order to get the information.
	So that's where I wouldn't, in your case, have enough to go on to be able to give any more advice than that.
	So if you're comfortable to talk about it, I was just curious.
	How did the confrontation go?
	In what way did it not go well?
	Well, pretty much for the conversation, I was talking to my mother, and my dad was just in the Other room and sometimes he would pop in with like some kind of nasty comment about something I'd said and then he'd pop out.
	So there was that.
	So very disrespectful.
	Yeah, very.
	And just he was basically expressing like that he thought that what I was saying was ridiculous.
	And then my mother, she kind of listened to me.
	But...
	She sort of would play like she didn't remember certain things or, I mean, pretty big things that, how do you not remember?
	It just is not believable that someone wouldn't remember them.
	Or she would, like one thing that I brought up was that they required me and my brothers to Before bed say goodnight and that we loved him and like give him a hug and a kiss before going to bed and I said like I mean did you ever notice that I was like reluctant to do that and like underneath like playing the part
	that I was supposed to I just hated you.
	Oh you said that to her.
	Yeah I mean and She just, like, was, you must be remembering wrong or something.
	Just this, like, trying to do some crazy making with me.
	Right, so she denied your reality.
	Yeah, exactly.
	So, yeah, I mean, that was basically how it went.
	And then...
	I sort of had a little bit of contact after that with them, but...
	Shortly after, I sent the email that I didn't want to talk to them anymore.
	And then for three years, they just didn't send me any emails.
	I got a few emails from family members, like aunts and uncles and stuff, but nothing directly from my parents.
	Right, so your aunts and uncles reaching out to you to be nice, or were they being like spies?
	Um...
	I only ask that because I've had family members be spies, and I was like, wow, it's really interesting how they work.
	They all go back and tell my parents.
	Yeah.
	Well, one aunt, she was just kind of nasty.
	Whatever she heard that was going on with me, she said all this mean stuff and just was trying to antagonize me.
	A few others, like, invited me to different family events, like, they're not aware that something's going on.
	Like, not aware of, oh, Andrew just disappeared from the family.
	Right.
	Huh.
	Well, it's interesting what you share, because is it okay if I give you just feedback on what you shared about that confrontation with your mother and father?
	Please.
	Alright.
	Because it sounds like what you were saying was very reasonable, and you were actually expressing what you would have liked to have been able to express when you were a kid.
	And you were just going with your personal experience of what it was like with them forcing you to say all this stuff and hug them and kiss them and all that, and So it sounds like your dad was just denying your reality, undermining you, belittling you, and being mean.
	And not even really listening to you and not even directly interacting, but just coming in and sniping in a not nice way.
	That's what it sounded like to me.
	And it sounds like your mom was just undermining your emotional reality and playing a little dumb at the same time.
	Exactly.
	And it's like...
	And so I guess when I say those, it's like those are definitely familiar.
	Those are nice, pretty fairly common tactics of parents when they're under fire.
	I mean, my mom is a master of playing dumb.
	And it's like...
	And the funny thing is she's an incredibly smart woman.
	And so it's interesting that one of her basic defenses is to play dumb.
	Right?
	And my dad is like...
	My dad uses a slightly different defense.
	Actually, I have other family members who do a bit more what your dad does, which is just shut down and then just do these belittling, nasty attacks and then retreats, almost like this really nasty form of guerrilla warfare.
	I have some family members who do that, but my dad just goes more strongly on the offense.
	And it's like...
	I don't know.
	So when I hear about your parents, It's like the idea of asking them for specific information.
	I guess what I would think then is if you really want those dates about when stuff happened and specific information, it sounds like finding the family member who is probably the most gentle and do it in a...
	If the goal is really just to get information as opposed to express your feelings, then to do it in the least confrontational way possible to make it the most likely that you'll get the information.
	And it's possible you'll get it.
	And who knows?
	It could be very useful.
	I mean, this is the other thing, I think.
	With confronting parents or trying to get information out of them, no matter what happens, anything that they respond, anything that they do or don't do, can be very useful.
	If they don't say anything and they don't reply to you, it's still useful.
	That's information.
	If they reply in a nasty way, that's information.
	If they try to suck you back in but don't give you the information you want, that's useful.
	If they give you the information you want and then attack you also, that's useful because you can learn from that.
	I think that, to me, the key that I've gotten in having Well, now decades of confrontations with my parents and then sometimes years of no contact and then going back and trying is that one thing I've learned and sometimes need to relearn It's funny, I'm losing my train of thought.
	One thing is that it's all useful.
	Oh, I know what I was going to say.
	Every single thing that happens in those interactions and every single bit of feedback or lack of feedback that they give me, every single way that they respond, that gives me a very clear indication about how they treated me when I was a little kid.
	And so that's the real information that I get.
	And also, by watching my responses, by watching my fears in reaching out to them, watching my feelings come up, my thoughts, my memories, this also are very clear indicators of how I felt as a little child.
	So that's the real benefit for me.
	It's like sometimes there's the ostensible surface stuff that I'm going to confront them about and the stuff that I'm trying to get from them, but underneath it is all the subtext.
	So it's an amazing amount of material that can be mined Out of interacting with my parents, especially if I do it in a really conscious way.
	So that's what I'm thinking, that whatever it is that you're trying to get from them could be in one way sort of like the surface level of the information, but then there's just the whole stuff that goes along with it.
	Even the fact that you're thinking about it or talking with a therapist or journaling about it or whatever you do or asking me about it, it's all information about your childhood that could be very, very useful.
	So in a way, it's like Whether you actually go for it and ask them or not, it's like already it's just the process of gaining all this information that has the potential to be incredibly growth-provoking because this is the stuff that can be mined and converted into the real gold.
	So that, I guess, would be my reply.
	I don't know.
	Is there anything else you wanted to ask about that?
	Because I know I just said a lot about your life and I don't know how correct I actually am.
	It's just a lot of it was about my life also and relating to you.
	Sure.
	No, that was helpful.
	I mean, like, another thing that I did in sort of trying to think about if I was going to go forward with this was I had a sort of a role play with a friend where they were me and I was my mom and the friend played out.
	They were you and you were your...
	I see.
	So you put yourself in your mom's shoes to the best of your ability and they played you.
	Yeah.
	And just, like, starting with the first question I was going to ask and...
	Just being super open and curious and not sort of putting out any sort of judgments, just like reserving those judgments.
	Right.
	And it was super illuminating.
	Wow.
	Just feeling things as my mother.
	Yes.
	Just all the different things that I was thinking.
	Yeah.
	It was great.
	So your friend knew you pretty well, right?
	Yeah.
	So he or she got to play the part of you in an effective way.
	It sounds fascinating.
	I actually really admire you.
	Good for you, man.
	Thanks.
	So I don't know actually how many callers there are and how much time I have per caller, but maybe if there's more people, we should keep going.
	I don't know.
	If there's more stuff you have, maybe you can come back, Andrew.
	Yeah, I'll stick around, and if there's any empty time, pop back in.
	Thanks, Drew.
	Thanks.
	Yeah, yeah, it was a pleasure.
	Thank you.
	Thanks, Andrew.
	Our next caller today is Casey.
	Go ahead, Casey.
	Hello, hello.
	Hey, Siege.
	Siege is my name.
	Siege.
	Yeah.
	How's it going?
	Nice to hear your voice.
	It was nice to hear yours, too.
	I just wanted to start out by saying I've been listening to Steph on YouTube for a long time, but I joined the community after you were doing a Sunday show with them, and I had wished that I had heard that live so I could call in.
	Hey, dig it, man.
	Well, here you are.
	So I wish the two of you were here together, but you're here, so that's better than nothing, I guess.
	So where are you calling from?
	I'm calling from the Bible Belt.
	That's about as specific as I'm going to be.
	Well, God bless, brother.
	Thanks.
	So this is going to be a really long setup to this question, but bear with me.
	All right, I'm all ears.
	I know you're a therapist, or you were.
	Yeah.
	Well, my history with therapy has not exactly been pleasant.
	Mine neither.
	In second grade is the earliest I can remember.
	They had me put on one of those drugs.
	I think the first one was Ritalin.
	Everybody's first drug, isn't it?
	And then when I was 12, almost 13, they had me locked in a hospital in Georgia called the Bradley Center, where I spent Thanksgiving and almost didn't get out in time for Christmas.
	And then when I was 19, they had me committed to North Alabama Regional Hospital in Decatur, Alabama.
	This was already after I was old enough to be out of the house.
	Actually, before that, when I was 18, they convinced me to admit myself into a hospital.
	Then there were other places after that that they had convinced me to admit myself into or that I had gone ahead and done to avoid commitment again.
	Aside from these places, which were Not pleasant, especially North Alabama Regional.
	That was the worst.
	I hear that Bryce is worse, but I've never been there, fortunately.
	So aside from these places, for most of my life they had me on the drugs Tegretol and Meloril, occasionally throwing in a third one, Klonopin at one point, Effexor at one point.
	So Tegretol being a mood stabilizer, Meloril being an old school antipsychotic, Klonopin being a benzo anti-anxiety drug, and Effexor being one of the slightly older antidepressants?
	You know more than I do, I guess.
	Yeah, that's what they are.
	I just took them because they told me.
	Any one of those could be extremely harmful and hard to get off.
	They were, yeah.
	So, yeah, I had been trying for a while to convince myself to get off them, and I was pretty much forced to go to I'm a therapist and psychiatrist.
	And even after I was in the regional, they had me...
	They applied for disability for me.
	So I kind of had to be...
	In order to keep that, which they got me stuck in that permanent underclass.
	Steph is always talking about by doing that.
	So in order to keep that and the Medicaid and Medicare that came with it, I had to...
	I had to...
	I just lost my train of thought.
	I had to keep going to treatment.
	Treatment with quotes around it.
	Well, I can't do that in vocal, but yeah.
	If you could see me, I would be doing the air quotes there.
	Oh yeah, you got it.
	So I would...
	I would have to go to the mental health center, which was actually the worst.
	Mental health in quotes also.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I continued going there until I could find external places I could go.
	Eventually, back in 2009...
	A friend of mine had recently been diagnosed with the same crap that I was and put on the same drugs I was.
	And that was the point where I snapped.
	And I said, okay, you can do this to me.
	You can't do this to my friend.
	And I made the commitment to get off mine with him.
	So he would have the support he needed.
	So what, diagnosed with schizoaffective or bipolar or schizophrenia, one of those fun?
	Bipolar is the diagnosis I've held since 19...
	92, 93, sometime in that time.
	And ADHD has come and gone as a diagnosis.
	Schizophrenia only lasted for one day in regional.
	I mean, to show you how serious they were, I was able to make that diagnosis go away by boycotting their treatments in there.
	So, yeah, that's how much they really believe in their diagnoses.
	So...
	So I got off, you know, I kept it a secret that I was off my meds for two years, throwing them away, throwing them away one pill at a time.
	So I would say that's very, very smart.
	Everybody would think I was on them, continuing to go into these treatments, but manipulating them instead of actually...
	And I actually continued to go to the treatments and manipulate them even after I came out about being off my meds.
	And it was earlier...
	No, this is actually 2013.
	It was last year...
	I couldn't go to my psychiatrist anymore because of transportation issues.
	I tried to get an actual psychologist, a therapist, that I could actually talk to.
	I had to fire her after two appointments because she seems too tied to mainstream.
	I had all but given up thinking I was going to go it alone.
	Then I heard you on...
	The show with Steph, and I'm like, there are people that can help.
	There are people that are mainstream.
	And so my question, after all this huge, long setup, is how do I go about finding someone like you?
	Woo!
	Okay, so could we talk for a little bit and ask you some more questions?
	Sure.
	Sure.
	So let me see.
	When did they start you on Ritalin?
	What were you, 8 or 10 or 7 or something?
	I was in second grade, so probably somewhere in that area, yeah.
	7 or 8.
	And then first hospitalized at 12.
	Yeah, 12 going on 13.
	13 and got diagnosed as bipolar 21 years ago.
	I have no idea how old you are.
	I'm presuming 20, 30, something like that.
	Yeah.
	Well, I look a lot younger than I am.
	There's that.
	So it's like...
	But anyway, so your question is, how do you go ahead finding someone who works somewhat more or less within the mental health system who is going to be useful to you?
	That sounds like your question to me.
	How do you even start?
	Well, they don't necessarily have to.
	See, I've given up on the trying to fool the state thing, part of it.
	I mean, I don't even care anymore.
	I'm making money from my art now.
	Right.
	No, no, no.
	But it sounds like you want to find someone, a therapist who can help you.
	Yeah.
	That's your question, right?
	Yes, yes.
	So you're not taking the psychiatric drugs anymore, right?
	No, I'm not.
	I'm not even pretending to take them anymore.
	Everybody knows I'm awful.
	Right.
	I'm just trying to get the facts.
	So you're not taking the drugs, and you want to find a therapist who could be useful.
	So then there's a lot of questions.
	One would be like, Do you have health insurance or not?
	If you do have health insurance, do you want to use it or would you rather pay out of pocket?
	I have some health insurance, but it probably wouldn't work on anything.
	It's not mainstream.
	So you don't have Medicare anymore or Medicaid?
	Well, I have a Humana Medicare plan that I use.
	I see.
	So you have to find someone who's on the Humana Medicare list.
	You can't find just a regular general Medicare provider.
	Right.
	I don't know how it works.
	Right.
	It changes every year.
	Right.
	And a lot of times they do, they take these big plans like Medicare and then they basically put you in one of those managed care things.
	So then it very much limits your treatment options.
	So you have to find a therapist or a treatment provider who also takes Humana Medicare.
	So that definitely does limit it.
	But...
	Well, if you have some external financial resources, that eases things up significantly, and it basically gets you out of the whole system in a lot of ways.
	Well, I'm a starving artist, so I wouldn't be able to afford much, but I'm pretty sure that if I found somebody who would help, I could find somebody who could help me raise the funds.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And then it's a question of depending on where you are.
	I mean, I always think if someone really wants therapy, it's preferable to meet with someone in person.
	So depending on where a person is, it could be very difficult.
	If you're in some random, let's say a rural location in the Bible Belt...
	It's probably going to be less likely that you're going to find someone.
	If you're in a big city in the Bible Belt, well, who knows?
	It may be more likely.
	If you're in New York City or you're in Boston or you're in L.A. or San Francisco or Chicago, well, then your chances go way up that you're likely to find someone.
	On the other hand, if you're willing to try to find someone who is going to do, let's say, therapy over the telephone or Skype, It's better than nothing.
	It's definitely – well, yes.
	And so this is what it is.
	I think there's all – like a whole range of what's ideal versus what will help you at the bottom of the list.
	And then it's just like trying to make it as close to ideal as possible and then being practical.
	So I think most therapists would rather meet with someone in person.
	I mean it's just – On the other hand, there's going to be fewer therapists that are willing to do telephone and Skype, but then there are a lot of them.
	I think one thing that tends to work the best is if you have friends who have somewhat similar issues that you're going through and they have a therapist, often a friend can make a referral.
	And then you get someone who you can trust from someone that you trust.
	That tends to start relationships off on the best foot.
	So that's one way to do it, to put it out there to people that you know and trust.
	Do you have a therapist who you might recommend that also might be taking people that could work with me for, this is my budgetary range, who's willing to work over Skype or over the phone?
	There's no one I really trust right now.
	No one at all?
	Well, last week I walked in on the one person that I did trust.
	Violating my trust in my apartment.
	Right.
	Well, that's okay.
	So then it's a question of testing out people, putting out feelers.
	Because also what you described about your experiences in psychiatry, I don't want to say the mental health system because mental health has a positive ring to it to me.
	Psychiatry just kind of tells it for what it is.
	Psychiatrists are just drug pushers.
	I think everybody knows this, but...
	Pretty much drug pushers and people...
	I mean, most psychiatrists nowadays practice biological psychiatry, which to me is just generally an extremely harmful pseudoscience.
	I don't know what that is.
	Is that the giving the drugs that they do?
	It's the idea that people's emotional problems are actually biological brain illnesses, and they need to be treated as such with drugs, with forcing people to do things they don't want to do, hospitalizing them, giving things like electroconvulsive therapy.
	That's sort of the realm of psychiatry.
	Yeah, they tricked my parents into thinking I was biologically sick, and my mother still believes it, so...
	Right.
	Well, bipolar is nowadays considered a biological mental illness.
	It's a farce.
	I don't know.
	It didn't exist when I was first diagnosed.
	They called it by another name.
	It was a manic depressive disorder.
	Right.
	And it was considered fairly uncommon.
	Now it's like extremely common, but...
	But just to give you a quick bit of feedback more to get to your question.
	So your experiences, from what you described to me in the mental health system, I hate to say it, it's extremely common.
	I'm sure you know that too.
	I know a lot of people who have similar experiences.
	I just wish that opened up to me because I think if they knew that I... I know what they're going through.
	Then maybe I would have some friends that I could trust.
	Well, here's what I would suggest to you.
	There's certain resources on the internet that will give you more access to finding people out and finding people that will be more useful and finding more allies.
	Because I personally have talked to probably by now thousands of people who have shared stories that are similar to yours.
	There's thousands of people who have come out of the mental health system, who have gotten off their meds, and some of them have actually even made use of therapists.
	I've been the therapist for some of those people, but there are a lot of therapists out there who are useful.
	There's only one of you, and there's thousands of them.
	Oh, no.
	There's other therapists who I think are very useful, who I know have helped people.
	And I know a lot of people who have had similar situations in the mental health system.
	What I mean is, you can't help them all because you're just...
	Oh, no, no.
	I'm not a therapist anymore either.
	It's just like I'm putting my energies in other directions.
	So, I don't know.
	Do you have a pen?
	I was just getting one when you were saying you have resources.
	Okay.
	So I'm just going to give them off the top of my head.
	But the first place I would go to is the blog madinamerica.com.
	Mad in...
	America dot com.
	All right.
	Yeah.
	I actually am a blogger there by chance, and I don't write as much as I probably should, but I've been spreading myself pretty thin.
	But that's a great place to explore.
	Not everybody that writes on that blog is as radical as I am, but there are other people that are.
	I know right now one of the main people who blogs at madinamerica.com is named Laura Delano.
	She's a friend of mine.
	She's a mental health survivor.
	She was diagnosed with bipolar.
	She's completely out of the mental health system, got off all her meds.
	She blogs on there.
	She's actually in my new movie, which just came out two weeks ago, which is called Coming Off Psych Drugs.
	I wish I was in that movie.
	Well, you would have fit in nicely.
	It would have been actually good to hear your story.
	It literally just came out a couple weeks ago.
	There's a trailer on YouTube for it.
	It's on my website, which is wildtruth.net.
	If you look under my DVDs, it's the first one.
	It's called Coming Off Psych Drugs.
	It's really hard to get off them without the doctor.
	I had to come up with a plan.
	They're designed to keep you on them without the doctor telling you to get off.
	Exactly.
	Basically, what you're describing is very much what people talk about in my movie.
	The reason I'm telling you about madinamerica.com is, first of all, with any website, Even with mine, use your judgment.
	If you like it and you feel comfortable with it, go for it.
	If you don't like it, don't trust it.
	I mean, your judgment is the best thing that you have going for you to help you make your life better.
	That's what I've learned with people.
	Don't trust me because I say it.
	Trust yourself.
	I'd sooner trust you than the one in the office down at the mental health center, but that doesn't say very much.
	I trust the homeless guy before I trust him.
	Oh, definitely.
	A lot of homeless people have a lot to say.
	And a lot of homeless people that I've talked to have a lot of experience in the mental health system.
	And part of why they're homeless is they said, fuck you, to the mental health system.
	I'd rather be homeless because at least I'm free.
	You can't put your hooks in me when I do what I want.
	So anyways, Laura Delano is right now compiling a list of mental health providers, including psychiatrists, who are willing to help people taper off drugs.
	And so there are some, and she's been consulting me about that list because I know people in different places, but she's compiling a list.
	I know there's another website called mindfreedom.org.
	I don't know if you know Mind Freedom.
	These are like the big anti, basically the big progressive, radical, critical of psychiatry websites.
	And a friend of mine who's a therapist named Matthew Morrissey, he and I wrote a book about Yeah, I know someone who's on that.
	Right.
	It's a nasty one.
	And it's an expensive nasty one, too.
	But he compiled a list for the website MindFreedom.org, and he's a board member of MindFreedom.
	MindFreedom is a radical...
	I mean, some people bristle at the term anti-psychiatry, but that's all I say.
	It's against the traditional mental health system.
	That's another website.
	MindFreedom.org and Matthew Morrissey there.
	Yeah, yeah.
	He compiled a list.
	I don't know how up-to-date his list is.
	Laura Delano is compiling a list right now of therapists that are progressive, that are willing to help people get off drugs, psych drugs.
	Now, the reason—you don't need to get off psych drugs.
	You've already done it.
	And you know what?
	Since you're in the Bible Belt, bless you, man.
	Good job.
	Thanks.
	It's not easy to do.
	A lot of people have a very hard time doing it.
	And some people it's not that hard.
	Some people can't do it.
	Because it's just...
	They've been on them for too long and it's too hard to get off.
	And it's like, I respect people whether they can or can't.
	But anyone who wants to get off the drugs should certainly be allowed to try.
	It is hard.
	I tried to get off drugs before that.
	I mean, not just one particular drug.
	The effects are I tried to get off by myself one time.
	And it just didn't work.
	No, it's very hard.
	It's...
	I mean...
	And the doctor that gave it to me said that it is specifically designed that way.
	Yes, and Klonopin, which is a benzo, it's a highly addictive benzodiazepine, that's hard as hell for people to get off.
	A lot of people, it takes years sometimes.
	You know what I did with those?
	I sold them.
	They have a street value.
	Well, Klonopin does.
	I probably shouldn't say that on the air.
	Well, you didn't give your name.
	I mean, a lot of people do that.
	Meloril basically doesn't have a street value, or very rarely.
	Tegretol doesn't.
	Effexor pretty much doesn't.
	Klonopin definitely does.
	That's a big one.
	There's only one antipsychotic I know that has a street value, and that's Seroquel.
	Oh, I've done that for a little bit of time.
	People resell Seroquel.
	It's very popular in the jail system.
	A lot of prisoners get it, and they like it because it just totally zonks them out.
	I didn't know about that.
	I know that people saw that I was taking the Klonopin, and they started offering me money for it, and I remembered that when I was getting off of them.
	Right.
	Yeah, and some people get off the drugs and keep getting the prescription because they can resell it.
	I don't think that's a good idea, but people do it.
	But anyways, so...
	To get back to the point that if you can find a therapist who is publicly willing to say they're willing to help people get off psych drugs, right away you've got someone who you know is pretty radical.
	That doesn't mean they're going to be a great therapist, but at least you know their point of view is going to align with yours more.
	The other thing then is once you start finding...
	Okay, one final website that I really recommend reading is beyondmeds.com.
	It's by a former psychiatric patient who is...
	She's still maybe...
	I think maybe she's off all her drugs now, but she's had a hell of a time.
	She's been on like 20 or something different drugs.
	And she's got one of the most prominent blogs on the internet about getting off psych drugs and a progressive blog all about...
	critical about the psychiatric system.
	And so these are...
	And basically, if you go to mindfreedom.org, if you go to madinamerica.com, if you go to...
	And...
	Beyond Magic and Wild Truth.
	Yeah, well, my website is informational, but it doesn't have very many links to resources right now.
	So those websites, though, you enter the world of basically having a lot more information at your disposal to be able to find therapists.
	Then there are other groups that, like, there's one called isps-us.org.
	I'm going to need you to repeat that one.
	I know, and I've discovered that I have a slight speech impediment, so my S's don't sound good.
	I, S as in Samuel, P as in Paul, S as in Samuel, dash, US as in United States, dot org.
	ISPS-US dot org.
	ISPS-US dot org.
	Exactly.
	That's an organization mostly for professionals, mental health professionals, who want to help people who are diagnosed or labeled with psychosis, schizophrenia, bipolar, stuff like that.
	And they have a list of members that's publicly available on their website, and they have it listed by state and by last name.
	Now, some of them are very progressive, some of them are fairly traditional, but it's a starting place.
	So there's lots of ways to find people.
	The other thing is...
	The best people, honestly, that I would trust are the super progressive, well-connected psychiatric survivors.
	I would put you in the category of a psychiatric survivor.
	I don't know if you call yourself that, but that's the category I put people in.
	I had never considered calling myself that, but it works.
	Right.
	And so...
	Basically, progressive psychiatric survivors are the ones who – they don't bullshit anybody.
	They're not going to say stuff because it sounds good.
	So they're the ones that I trust the most.
	But there are some therapists that are very well-respected by psychiatric survivors, and they're the ones that I trust also.
	Oh, I use the diagnosis when it meets my – When it suits my benefits.
	Well, that's the one thing that can be of value.
	But anyway, so those are some good places to start.
	Then the thing is, once you find a therapist, then I would say, you ask them a lot of questions.
	And you need to test them for yourself to find out if they have value for you.
	You want to know their philosophy.
	You want to know their point of view.
	You want to know if they...
	You have to find out if they're going to be helpful.
	If you're meeting with them in person, within the system, you want to find out, well, if you say the wrong thing, are they going to hospitalize you?
	And if they are willing to do that, don't work with them.
	Yeah, that's the thing I was really worried about with every therapist, every psychiatrist I've ever had.
	I was worried about saying the wrong thing and being hospitalized.
	Right, which totally undoes their ability to be useful to you because if you have to censor what you're saying to your therapist, And how are they supposed to help you?
	Because they don't even know who you are because you're censoring yourself.
	But on the other hand, it's very wise to censor yourself if you're in the position you were in with those kind of diagnoses, those kind of medications, and that kind of hospitalization history.
	Because they can pull the plug on you and they'll send you right back.
	And a lot of therapists will do it.
	And so it's like, I wouldn't work with them if I were you.
	But then the thing is, if you're working remotely, if you're paying a fee, if you're paying with PayPal or you're sending checks to a therapist...
	They're much less likely to harm you.
	And the other thing is, I've worked with clients who didn't even give me their name.
	Like, you said your name was Siege.
	You told me you were in the Bible Belt.
	Well, that narrows it down to about 75 million men.
	Do you know what I mean?
	The Siege.
	The only The Siege.
	Right.
	So...
	So what I found is that I had clients who came to me who didn't want to tell me their names.
	They didn't want to give me their birthday.
	They didn't want to give me any identifying information that I was required to ask from them to be able to keep proper notes as a therapist, as a licensed therapist.
	But they said, I don't want to give it.
	And I told them, you don't have to.
	They'd say, well, what are you going to do about it then?
	I'd say, I'll just write down client refused to give his name.
	Client refused to give his birthday, and I said, don't give me information you don't want to.
	So the way we're talking now, I think if you work at it, you can find a therapist who may not even require your name.
	And in that way, how can they harm you if they don't even know your name?
	On the other hand, yeah, their IP addresses and things like that, but I think the most important thing is to find someone that you feel really comfortable with and test them.
	And if you don't feel comfortable with them, like you said with that therapist or psychiatrist, Get rid of them after two sessions.
	But at first, there's no reason that they have to interview you.
	I think if you feel like you need to do it, you interview them.
	And a good therapist will let you interview them because they will understand exactly the reason you're interviewing them.
	Because they know how vulnerable and how intimate the therapy relationship is.
	And they know that for it to be of value, you have to feel comfortable.
	So I would say just remember that you have a full 100% right to interview the therapist for as long as you need.
	And, by the way, you interviewing a therapist, even if it needs to go on for weeks or months, That can be very therapeutic because it's like most people who have been in the system and have been harmed by the mental health system, have been harmed by their parents, haven't had a lot of experience, especially early on, with being in the power position.
	And if you're doing the interviewing, you're more in the power position.
	And that can be very, very healing.
	So that's basically my advice in a nutshell.
	There are some resources to start with.
	There are some concepts to start with.
	And I'd say...
	That's at least a place to start.
	And who knows?
	You might find someone.
	There are some people out there.
	Yeah, I wish it weren't necessary.
	I'd have been better off with the problems I started with before the therapy came along.
	Probably true.
	Probably true.
	But anyways, I hope that was useful, and if you're okay, let's go on to the next caller.
	All right.
	Well, thank you very much, Mr.
	McClary.
	You have a great rest of the show.
	And thank you, Mr.
	Siege.
	All right, the next caller today is Drew.
	Hey, what's up?
	How's it going?
	Oh, good.
	How are you?
	I'm really nervous.
	Well, if it makes you feel better about five minutes before 10 before the call, so was I. All right.
	So my questions are basically...
	Wait, can I ask you first?
	What are you nervous about?
	I'm nervous about talking to you.
	If you feel comfortable sharing.
	What specifically?
	I have a lot of respect for you.
	And so, like...
	I'm talking to a guy I have a lot of respect for that I've never talked to before.
	Aww.
	Publicly on the air, no less.
	Yeah, that too.
	Oh, well you're a courageous guy.
	Good to hear what you're saying.
	Okay, so my questions, I have three of them, and they're kind of surrounding giving up addictive and dissociative behaviors in order to speed up the self-therapy process.
	Okay.
	It's something I've been trying to work on.
	And for certain behaviors, I would make some progress.
	And then I'd relapse one day.
	And then that would just cause this cycle where...
	Well, not a cycle.
	I'd just keep relapsing after that day.
	So my first question is, I know that you've given up a lot of things.
	Maybe.
	Maybe I've written about having given up them in the past.
	Some of them I probably have gone back to, so I don't want to give any false impressions.
	Okay, so you've at least had some experience of trying to give up things.
	Yeah, well, for 10 years I basically didn't drink.
	Basically, not basically, I didn't.
	For 10 years I didn't.
	Drink, have romantic relationships, do any drugs, smoke cigarettes, pretty much didn't date.
	So for two years, I didn't masturbate.
	That's sort of my abstinence resume.
	Now it's a little bit more squishy, but I still...
	Pretty much don't do any of those things, but do some a little bit here and there.
	But anyways, so anyways, go on.
	Well, yeah, I'm looking to take a break.
	So what have you found to be the best way to approach a relapse to get the most out of it and to get going again?
	Ooh, I'm not sure I understand your question.
	So a relapse, meaning like if I was not drinking and then I started drinking and I would call that a relapse?
	Is that what you mean?
	Yeah, that's exactly.
	Do you care to be very specific?
	Because that would probably help me.
	If you don't, I understand.
	I can keep it.
	So, like, give an example?
	If you want to give a personal example, it certainly makes it easier for me to talk about it.
	Otherwise, we can keep it general, but it all depends on your comfort level.
	Sure, I can talk about sugar.
	So basically, like, I'll go quite a while without having, like, soda or candy or something like that.
	And then maybe, like, I'll have a really stressful day.
	And I'll use that to comfort myself.
	And then, like, the next day, I'll be like, oh, like...
	I just had soda yesterday.
	I relapsed.
	What's the point of trying again?
	Right.
	Do you feel guilty or anything like that?
	Do you have feelings around that?
	Or it just takes away your motivation to start being abstinent from those things again?
	There is a little bit of shame, and it also kind of takes away my motivation, yeah.
	Right.
	So can you reframe your question for me in the context of candy and soda?
	Is that okay that I'm asking?
	Yeah, I'm just trying to think how to do that.
	I'm trying to.
	Your question sounded like how to deal with relapses and what's the best way to...
	I guess what I was looking for is advice for approaching parts work or journaling in order to...
	Parts work?
	Yeah, something like that.
	I don't know what parts work is.
	Oh, like mycosystem, IFS. Oh, I see.
	So dealing with internal parts of yourself?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	But about, I don't know, how about I riff a little bit on the relapse question and then come in and ask me specific questions on anything that I'm talking about.
	Great.
	So it sounds like, okay, so you're specifically saying you would not eat candy or drink soda for a while to speed up your healing process and somehow make you feel better or healthier and then you'd be having a stressful day And you'd go back and have some candy or have some soda.
	And then maybe afterwards you'd feel some shame and then you'd be like, ugh, what's the point of...
	I stopped it.
	I had a relapse.
	It's just been a waste because I had a relapse.
	I don't know if you were counting time.
	I was three months without having it.
	Now it's just all ruined and I'm back to nothing.
	So forget it.
	I might as well just eat all the candy I want whenever I feel like it because I obviously don't have the self-discipline.
	Something along those lines?
	Yeah, pretty much.
	Right.
	Well, I guess one thing I would say is...
	First, that I relate to you.
	From having personal experience of not having done certain things for a long time, and then having...
	Gone back to them.
	I personally, I don't know, I just don't jive with the word relapse because to me it medicalizes it somehow and it makes it like something very bad has happened.
	And so I don't know.
	I just never felt comfortable with the word relapse because then it's like, it's sort of like, I don't know if I'm allowed to curse on this show, but it's sort of like, oh god, I fucked up.
	But some of the feelings around that concept of relapse I've had, I remember I'll be personal if it's okay with you.
	Sure.
	I didn't masturbate for two years, and I was really doing it as an experiment and a practice in self-discipline and as a chance to really be very, very internal and to get to know myself better.
	And I remember when I first masturbated, oh, the feelings of shame that came up and, like, I let myself down.
	It was really a lot of feelings.
	It was very painful.
	And because it was such a private thing, I couldn't even talk about it.
	With almost anybody.
	Thankfully I could talk about it with my best friend, and I really feel grateful that I had a friend that I could talk about it with.
	But it was just like, that was the other thing, I felt so lonely.
	And so, it was like, in the long run though, it's like, I don't think these so-called relapses are a bad thing, because it's like, we're human.
	And we're not perfect.
	And, you know, sometimes stressful times do come.
	Oh, here's a great example.
	Like, I... I didn't smoke cigarettes for 14 years.
	I went back to smoking for a while, and I was hitchhiking a lot, and I would smoke sometimes.
	Then I didn't smoke.
	I hadn't smoked for a year and a half, except I've been dating someone, which is another thing you could say I, quote, relapsed with.
	I hadn't been involved with anyone, but I'm exploring that, and it actually feels good to be involved with someone in a way.
	I'm going really, really slow, but there's a lot of feelings that come up, and I think trying new things sometimes can be healthy, and Exploring the feelings that come up.
	Like, if you feel shame, it's like, my feeling is, well, probably that shame is connected to something very old in your life.
	Because, like, there's no reason that eating candy or having a glass of soda should naturally trigger shame.
	So it's probably something that's historical in your past.
	Just a guess.
	A speculation.
	Because that's based on my experience.
	But I haven't smoked in a while.
	Except, oddly, the person that I'm dating sometimes smokes.
	And sometimes I'll have a cigarette with her.
	And it's kind of interesting for me.
	And I'm just exploring.
	But I hadn't had a cigarette in a few weeks.
	I was up in Boston doing a screening of my brand new film.
	And I'd just arrived and I was staying with a friend of mine in the neighborhood of Back Bay.
	And I'd been there a half an hour and suddenly we heard this horrible sound go off.
	We both looked at each other and her boyfriend was there.
	We all looked at each other and they said, that's not like a bomb.
	And I was like, are you sure it wasn't a car backfiring?
	They're like, nah, it was much louder than that.
	And then about 10 seconds later, another one.
	And then this big cloud of smoke came up and it was literally like two blocks away.
	We could see it right out their window.
	And it was the Boston Marathon bombing.
	We didn't know what it was and we went downstairs because the news didn't have anything about it.
	We saw all these people crying and screaming and in shock and saw this dude with his leg blown apart and blood everywhere.
	We were right there.
	My thought was, you know what?
	We went back upstairs because we didn't know and we heard there were more bombs and people were saying they didn't know how many there were.
	We went back upstairs and my first thought was, you know, I want a fucking cigarette.
	And it was like, both of my friends don't smoke.
	But it was just like, in that stressful moment, I wanted to go back to my comfort food, which is a cigarette.
	It gives me a sense of comfort.
	And it's like, they didn't have one, and they're both like really serious about not smoking.
	So I was like, and I'm not going to go out and buy them.
	I have my limits.
	But I just think that one thing is to be gentle with ourselves.
	And if we do go back to something that we quit, something that we feel a sense of pride with that we don't do, That we can use that to explore.
	And also, as a real chance to be gentle with ourselves.
	Because what I've learned from myself, and I've seen it with a lot of other people, is that a lot of us were not treated gently in our lives.
	We had a lot of expectations put on us.
	And so, no matter what we do as adults, we can learn to empathize with ourselves more and be gentle.
	You said you would go into a cycle after you, quote, relapse.
	And so I think that cycle can be studied because a lot of times those cycles are also historical.
	They tell us a lot about what happened in our past and how often parental figures or people in power demotivated us and kind of broke our spirits.
	And so often as adults, I find, and I find it for myself, that we...
	We end up taking up the reins of what those adults did to us, and we do to ourselves what they did to us.
	For me, it's been actually a really healing part of my process.
	To say, you know what?
	It's not against the law to have a cigarette, Daniel.
	I'm not killing myself.
	It's actually probably good for me once in a while.
	It's actually good for me to date and see what it's like to kiss someone and to hold someone and try and be a little bit more intimate in a different way.
	And I've learned something from it.
	I've actually learned more from dating than I've learned from being celibate in recent years.
	And I'll never take away from what I've learned by being celibate.
	And by the way, actually, I still am celibate.
	But it's like...
	To shake up my life and to try things from a different angle.
	I really admire people that are willing to try things.
	So even in the most intense periods of my celibacy and not drinking and not smoking and not doing drugs at all, it's like as a therapist, I worked with people who were doing all those things.
	And I totally, 100% respected their right to test things because everybody's in a different place.
	If anyone wants to try not eating candy and not drinking soda and not doing cigarettes and not smoking pot, not having sex and not dating and not masturbating or whatever it is, it's like there's things to be learned from it and there's things to be learned from those experiences.
	So I think in your case it's like, well...
	I don't know if I'm babbling on here, but I just think there's something to be learned in everything.
	And most importantly, from the feelings that come up when you're not doing the things and the feelings that come up when you are doing the things.
	So that's where it's like anything can be learned from.
	And this healing process, the self-therapy process, or whatever you call it, is something that anything can be grist for that mill.
	So that's just what I thought.
	So I don't know how you feel about that answering your question.
	Yeah, I think that was very, very valuable.
	I had never even considered the cycle where I have sugar one day and then I go into a sugar cycle.
	I never thought that would be historical, but when you said that, yeah, it could be.
	And so that's something I'm going to explore later.
	Yeah, and I like how you say it.
	It could be.
	It doesn't mean that it is, because I consider myself a scientist.
	So when you say it could be, that's a hypothesis.
	And it's worth exploring.
	It might not be, but it could be.
	And so if you can explore that with an open mind, who knows what you'll find.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So another question of mine is...
	Hey, can I quick pause for a second?
	Sure.
	Are you still nervous?
	Less so.
	Cool, man.
	Okay, so the next question of mine is, what made you want to do this in the first place, the abstinences and the celibacies?
	Like from sex or abstinence from other things?
	Pretty much just everything.
	I think each thing was a little bit different, but the overarching...
	Theme was that I wanted to be healthier.
	And I knew my life wasn't really working in a lot of ways.
	And I knew a lot of my patterns had a destructive element to them.
	Usually not very extreme, but there were still some things that I could notice.
	And I wanted to just be as healthy as I could.
	And also, I was just becoming a therapist.
	And it's like right around the time when I was quitting a lot of stuff.
	It was like 26, 27 when I started really...
	As I would call it, like cleaning up my act.
	And I sort of, I felt this very strong call to be as pure as I could when I became a therapist.
	So I really just wanted to focus on being as healthy as I could so that I could also be as useful to the people I was working with.
	And also I felt like, and it wasn't all just Because I was becoming a therapist, because becoming a therapist was a part of my process.
	But it also felt good to me when I was working with people who were having all sorts of sex problems and all sorts of, I don't know, drug and alcohol problems, cigarette problems, interpersonal problems, food problems, all sorts of things, that at least I had a sense that I was fairly clean in those areas and I knew I was working on them.
	I don't know.
	Something that I have trouble with in my life, always have, and I think always will, I can't stand hypocrites.
	They drive me nuts.
	And so for me, when I saw people coming to me and saying, you know, I'm really trying to quit smoking pot and it's driving me nuts and it's very hard to quit.
	I don't think I would have felt comfortable sitting with that person and saying, you know something, I've got to let you know, I smoke pot and I'm trying to quit too.
	Or I'm smoking pot and I'm comfortable with it.
	I felt like I would have had to disclose that to someone who was coming to me for help.
	And I just somehow felt like I was less of a hypocrite if I was clean in that department.
	But that's not really entirely it.
	Mostly it was just like...
	I could go down the list of each of the different things that I was clean from.
	I quit smoking pot because I felt like I couldn't think very clearly when I was smoking pot.
	I really wanted to know who am I, what is my brain like, and what are my emotions like without the input of that drug.
	I really wanted to know who I was, and I felt like I was using that drug sometimes to get away from myself, to go back to that word you originally used about dissociative things.
	At times, it was a dissociative drug for me.
	Other times, it would help me relax.
	Other times, it induced a lot of creativity in me.
	Sometimes, it was just really fun, but there was that dissociative element, and it also muddled my mind.
	I wanted to know who I was without that drug.
	And sometimes when I was nervous or felt sad or felt lonely, I would notice that I had an urge to go to that drug.
	And I was like, you know, I want to be able to deal with my sadness, my loneliness, my isolation without having to run to a drug, any drug.
	And marijuana was one of those drugs.
	So it's like I got a sense of pride when I quit smoking pot.
	And I quit smoking pot around 1998 before I became a therapist.
	And I stayed away from it, God, for...
	Well over 10 years, 12, 13 years.
	I've tried it again some in recent years, but...
	And it's been interesting.
	It's been very interesting to go back.
	A definite learning experience.
	But also, let's say...
	Cigarettes.
	Cigarettes was just comfort food.
	It was just junk food for me.
	I'd wake up in the morning with my throat being sore.
	My lungs didn't feel as good.
	My body didn't feel as healthy.
	It cost a lot.
	My hands stank.
	It made my breath stink.
	It was like, I know it's bad for your lungs.
	I couldn't exercise as well.
	It hurt my cardiovascular system.
	And I was just like, what the hell am I addicted to this crap for?
	And it gave me a sense of pride that I quit.
	And I quit that also, I think, in 1998.
	And didn't start smoking again until 2010.
	So I quit that and it gave me a sense of pride and also a sense of like, you know, I'm in control of my life and I really liked that.
	Alcohol, I quit that in 98 also.
	I don't think I drank anything until...
	2009, I think I drank a little, maybe 2010, but not even one drink in that whole time.
	Except once I was the best man at a friend's wedding and I had a sip of champagne when I gave the toast.
	He said, someone handed me a glass of champagne and I felt guilty, not having a sip.
	So I had one sip of champagne in like 12 years or something, 11 years.
	But I think another thing was I noticed that I... I would sometimes drink because I felt social pressure and I'd go out with my friends sometimes and we'd be at some bar and it would be like I'd be bored.
	I hated clubs.
	I hated bars.
	And I would just like get a drink to feel comfortable.
	And I was like, you know something?
	I don't even want to be in places where I don't feel comfortable sort of naturally.
	I'm not drawn to be here.
	I'm just being here because I'm lonely.
	And I was drinking to make myself feel comfortable.
	So for me, quitting alcohol was also part and parcel of avoiding places that I really didn't belong.
	And the other thing is I used to drink to feel comfortable around women.
	So I was like very insecure around women when I would like try it when I'd be attracted to someone.
	I had no idea how to approach them.
	So when I would drink, it was a way for me to build up my courage and to facilitate me hooking up with girls basically in my late teens and early 20s.
	And it's like certainly by my early 20s, I was like, Daniel, this is fucked up.
	You have to learn how to be comfortable with who you are and how you feel about people.
	And if you need alcohol to do that, then you really need to take a good look at yourself.
	And so pretty much by my early 20s, I'd almost entirely stopped drinking.
	I don't think I got drunk after the age of like 23.
	And so sometimes I still, you know, have a couple of drinks.
	And the thing is now, but from 98 to like In 2009, I didn't drink at all.
	But now, since I have no alcohol tolerance, if I have a glass of wine, which I very occasionally do, I get loopy after one glass, and two glasses, I'm over the top.
	I don't know.
	I go back, but I don't really feel so bad about it now, but I'm trying to think of other things.
	Sex.
	I quit that for a lot of different reasons, but also I just felt like it wasn't enhancing my relationships.
	And it was like I was using it to build sort of a quick false intimacy, and I felt like it wasn't really building a true deep bond with other people.
	And also it was a chance for me to, by being celibate, to learn to explore who I was as a person much more.
	And also to explore my history of being sexually abused and my history of other odd sexual relationships in my childhood and my history of sexual acting out and to really study why I did what I did and to really get to know myself better.
	And also just to massively explore my sexuality, sexuality, my history of sexuality, my family history of sexuality, to explore my sexual needs, to explore my body, all these things without the external variable of doing it interactively with another person.
	And masturbation was just...
	An extrapolated version of that for not masturbating.
	And it was like, I learned a lot.
	I really, really learned a lot through celibacy.
	And I'm a much more mature, healthier, better person.
	When I've been involved with this woman now, and it's like, I'm not the guy I was.
	It's like, the guy I am now in a relationship in the romantic sexual department is just not The guy that I was.
	And it's like, that's what celibacy has done to me.
	And the guy that I am now is way healthier, way more mature and just a person that I like a lot more.
	I respect myself and admire myself a lot more.
	And that feels good.
	I don't feel like a shit.
	I used to feel like a shit a lot for things that I did.
	And it's like, I mean, I've done some things that were kind of bad in my life.
	I've done some things that were basically kind of average.
	I've talked to a lot of my ex-girlfriends from my 20s and talked about stuff that happened between us.
	From the feedback I got, I was much harder on myself than they were on me.
	Most of them were like, dude, you were fine.
	But for me, it's like, no, that didn't pass my test of what it's cool to do and the things that I was thinking.
	It's just a chance to clean up my act.
	I just feel like now I respect what I do.
	I don't feel like I'm I don't know.
	I just feel like I'm acting out a lot less.
	And also, I know a lot more about myself and about sex in general and about my body and about people's bodies.
	I don't know.
	So it's been just very growth-producing.
	So I don't know.
	Is that sort of along the lines of what you were asking?
	Yeah, that was exactly what I was looking for.
	My last question is, could you share a time when you had trouble resisting a behavior that you were wanting to abstain from during those ten years?
	The one that jumps to my mind most obviously was when I was not masturbating for two years.
	That was hard.
	I was working as a therapist.
	I was living in New York City.
	When it came to being a therapist, people in therapy often talked about very, very sexual stuff.
	I heard about histories of sexual abuse all the time.
	But somehow it's like...
	I don't know.
	It just didn't like...
	That was okay when I wasn't masturbating.
	But what got me was I'd go out on the street and I'd see billboards of women that were like...
	You could see everything in their bodies.
	It was essentially pornography.
	Or I'd see women walking down the street with their bodies totally exposed.
	And it was like...
	Because I was not masturbating, one thing that I really had to do is protect myself.
	I really was serious about not letting myself get out of control.
	That sounds bad, but I didn't want to get turned on, basically.
	I would have to find ways to not look at them because it's like I was naturally drawn to look at that kind of stuff.
	I'd want to look at some beautiful woman who's walking by me who's like a fashion model in my neighborhood in Greenwich Village in New York.
	Everybody was looking and it's like I was too.
	So what I did to resist, to use your word, would be...
	I just would take my glasses off when I was outside.
	I did that for a few months, and I'm really nearsighted, so I can't see anything.
	So for me, a beautiful fashion model wearing basically a bikini walking down the street in Manhattan, for me, looked like the same as a 75-year-old woman walking down the street.
	I couldn't see any difference because I'm so blind.
	So that was one thing I did that was helpful.
	Another thing was I was just like, I would turn my vision sort of inward.
	I eventually could keep my glasses on.
	I hope I don't make myself sound crazy.
	But I would just turn my vision inward and focus on me so I wouldn't look at people on the street.
	And normally I like to watch people.
	I love looking at everybody who walks by.
	And so I just disciplined myself not to do that.
	Another thing was I don't look at porn.
	I, like, avoid all porn websites.
	So it's, like, I did that, like, to an extreme.
	It's like I avoided any sort of sexualized websites.
	I didn't, you know, like, I didn't want to...
	If I'd been watching a movie and suddenly, like, a sex scene would come on, I'm either going to fast forward it or I'm just going to, like, look away.
	I don't want this because I don't...
	I just didn't want to get aroused because I think it was, like, it's sort of a natural process.
	That kind of stuff, to some degree, can be arousing.
	And...
	Also it's like, okay, I'm going to bed at night.
	That's a natural time that I would often masturbate.
	It would be like, you know, at that time I would meditate sometimes before I go to bed.
	And then, you know, if I would notice sexual thoughts coming to my mind, just...
	Just focus on my breathing.
	Or just focus on me and think loving thoughts for myself.
	Therapeutically, it would be called cognitive behavioral techniques that I would practice.
	And then I would just be able to go to sleep.
	So those would be all things that I would do specifically with masturbation.
	And the reason I choose masturbation is because by far, that was the most difficult thing that I abstained from of everything.
	And that's what I said.
	After two years of not masturbating, I'm like, Daniel, Never, ever, ever for yourself do you have to fear an addiction again.
	Because the fact that you could not masturbate for two years You could stop anything you want if you really want to.
	And that's part of why I don't worry now about like, oh, I can have a drink once in a while.
	I can smoke a cigarette.
	I don't worry about getting addicted because the fact that I could not masturbate for two years, I could resist any temptation.
	That's at least how I feel.
	And there's a self-esteem for me that comes with that, of just knowing that whenever I need it, I've got an incredible amount of self-discipline that I can call to the table.
	Right.
	So I don't know how that sounds to you.
	Oh, you gave me a ton of examples that I could use for myself when I do feel triggered.
	Yeah, and then I think it's also like knowing yourself and knowing what your specific triggers are and ways that you personally resist.
	I mean, there's tons of things.
	Like, I tried this.
	Sometimes I would put a rubber band around my wrist and, oh, I'm thinking about, you know, wanting to have a cigarette.
	Snap the rubber band a little bit.
	It's negative reinforcement.
	Right.
	Not so that it really hurts, but just as a reminder.
	There's a lot, you know, things like that.
	You know, people do all sorts of things.
	And, you know, there's...
	And it's just basically that your creativity is the limit for how to resist things that you want to resist.
	But I think also, to be fair, to study why you're resisting it.
	Because I also know...
	I mean, I've heard stories of people that abstain from things that sometimes, to me, sound fairly healthy.
	And it's like, hmm.
	You know, and...
	Because some people...
	I don't know.
	Just as long as it's like...
	As long as what you're doing is within the context of loving yourself and growing, it sounds like it's all worth experimenting with.
	All right.
	Well, thanks a lot, Daniel.
	Have an excellent day.
	Hey, man.
	It was good to talk to you.
	Yeah, you too.
	Daniel, I have a question for you.
	All right.
	Michael, right?
	Yeah, Michael.
	Can you talk closer to the mic?
	I can't hear you very well.
	I'm sorry.
	Is this better?
	A little bit.
	Okay, I'll talk louder.
	Okay, good.
	I grew up extremely socially isolated.
	And when I began the therapeutic process with my therapist, I identified a lot of really toxic relationships in my life.
	And moving past that point, I realized that I didn't have many templates for developing healthy friendships and healthy relationships in general.
	And I knew that's something that I really wanted.
	I knew that if I wanted to do anything positive or great in the world, that I was going to need a support team.
	And certainly my therapist was a large part of that.
	But I knew I wanted some really close and great friends in my life.
	And it's been a trial and error process for me in trying to pretty much start from the ground up and discover how to get those kind of relationships in my life.
	And I'm very pleased with where I am now and the relationships that I do have.
	But I was curious if you had any advice, thoughts, or anything that you could add to people that are kind of beginning that process themselves.
	And they want some really deep, close, and important friendships and relationships in their life, and they don't exactly know how about to go getting them.
	So I'd be curious, any thoughts you have on that subject?
	Whoa.
	Yeah, that's...
	Golly.
	How to answer that in a general way.
	Because people are so different.
	I mean...
	I mean, I could be glib and say, I think it all starts with one's relationship to oneself.
	But I think that's a little glib because I think even that can be very, very hard for some people if they don't have templates of having good relationships.
	Because I think ultimately the way we treat ourselves starts pretty much from how other people treat us.
	And so, like, I think anything that someone does for their own self-growth, their self-knowledge, their self-healing, their self-therapy will...
	Translate into ultimately being able to have better relationships with other people.
	But I think of people who have emailed me over the years.
	I've had a lot of people email me through my website who are diagnosed with various forms of autism.
	You know, Asperger's and sometimes even more extreme, just straight up autistic.
	And it's like they've asked me questions like, I have no friends.
	I've never had a friend.
	I don't know how to have a conversation with someone.
	Can you give me suggestions for how to do that?
	Or people who are You know, have been diagnosed with schizophrenia for years and they're like, you know, they might be very afraid of people and terrified that people are out to get them based on their experiences that sometimes people are out to get them and, you know, hearing voices that are telling them everyone wants to hurt you and everybody hates you and you're disgusting.
	And it's like, so I've had a lot of people like that, probably hundreds over the years, reach out to me and say, how am I supposed to make friends?
	So when you ask that question, I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm assessing you, but I'm assessing you as someone who probably was much easier than that.
	I don't know if I'm right, but...
	With me, being so isolated, just talking to people was a challenge.
	Starting a conversation was something that was completely foreign to me, like how to do that in a way that's not awkward.
	I know for me that it was pretty much just accepting that I'm going to make a ton of mistakes here and I'm going to have a lot of awkward conversations.
	I'm going to do a lot of things that I'm going to look back and be like, eh.
	Yeah, I totally understand why that happened and it didn't go the way I wanted it to go.
	And just really embracing the fact that mistakes are going to happen.
	Mistakes.
	But I'm going to learn from each and every single one of them.
	Right.
	And every mistake I make or every interaction that doesn't go the way I want it to go is going to be something that's going to make me better and I'm going to grow from it.
	See, that sounds beautiful to me.
	And I would also add that what I would suggest to people that Well, two suggestions, just general suggestions, are first, try to find people who are the most likely that you can bond with, people that you really like and admire, and people you feel safe with,
	which for some people is very hard to find those people, but you do your best and try to find people who might be helpful and be willing to, like, The other thing is to do what you said, so I'm going to make a caveat on what you said, which is how I translate what you said,
	is to be very gentle with yourself and be very forgiving of yourself and loving of yourself and realizing that this inherently is going to be a pretty clumsy process and it's going to be quite a learning curve and a learning process and to give yourself the liberty to screw up a bit and to not have it be perfect and you're not going to make best friends immediately and that You know, stuff might be awkward, and it probably will be awkward, and to expect that.
	Right?
	Is that kind of what you said?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, absolutely, and that's okay.
	Yeah.
	That's okay.
	It's like if you pick up a violin for the first time, you're not going to play some amazing piece of music on day one when you pick that thing up.
	It's going to be quite the process, figuring out how it works, and you're going to improve on it over time.
	Yep.
	It took me years to learn how to play the guitar.
	You know?
	A lot of things.
	It just took me years to do.
	But I would say the caveat that I was going to give off what you said is that when you do find people who you're beginning to interact with and it's clumsy at first, I think it's okay to be open about that.
	Oh, yeah.
	And to talk about that and to say, listen, I'm not that experienced with this and that I'm afraid I'm going to make mistakes.
	Or maybe even if you're not afraid, just saying, I know I'm going to make mistakes and hopefully I can acknowledge those and we can talk about it and it won't ruin everything.
	And so basically...
	For me, my internal process can be part of the relationship building.
	So actually, my method can actually contribute to making the relationship stronger.
	And I'm going to give a really clear example of that from my life.
	I wasn't really romantically involved with anyone until about almost a year and a half ago.
	And when I started dating this woman, if you call it dating, it doesn't feel like any dating I've ever done.
	I told her, I've been celibate since the 90s.
	And I'm really like...
	I'm very much new to this.
	I feel like I'm a virgin again.
	I don't know what I'm doing here.
	It's new.
	Exactly how you described it.
	I said, this is awkward and it's clumsy.
	I said, but I'm really into it.
	I'm curious.
	I just want you to know that At that point, I was 39.
	I'm like, I'm 39, and this is really new for me, and I know it's like 39-year-olds are, quote, supposed to be a certain way, but that's not how I am.
	I feel like, in a way, I identify more with a 13-year-old.
	And so even though, yes, I'm an adult man and I've got an adult man's values and a human being's values and I'm a professional and I've got a lot of experience and this and that, there's a part of me that this is very new for.
	And I'm doing it in a very different way.
	So it's like, you know, how do you feel about that?
	And she says, well, I kind of feel the same way in some ways.
	And also it's like, I think pretty much anyone who's going to want to be in a relationship with me is...
	It's going to be kind of unusual.
	Also, it's going to be a pretty new experience for them because I'm not a regular kind of person to be involved with in that way.
	For her, it was kind of awkward too.
	It was clumsy and new.
	In a way, we could explore this new relationship together and be open about the clumsiness.
	I have made a lot of mistakes.
	We were actually apart for eight months because I was in Alaska for four months working last year and then I was in other places traveling and she was away in other countries.
	When we got back, I did a lot of internal growth during that time.
	We communicated some, but we didn't see each other.
	When we got back, I was like, It was still clumsy, but I was like, right away I noticed I was different.
	I was like, you know something?
	I'm not 13 anymore.
	I said, this year I'm 23.
	I was like, I've grown.
	I'm like literally 10 years older.
	And I noticed I was way better at it.
	And I was like much more comfortable and much less prickly.
	And I was much less insecure.
	And I'm like, this is cool.
	It's definitely a lot nicer to be in a relationship as a 23-year-old.
	And then, you know, she's been traveling some and I've been traveling some.
	So then we were apart for another couple of months and we came back together.
	And I'm like, damn it, I'm 27 now.
	And so it's like, the good news for me is it's like, in this area of relating to people, after a period of what you might call extreme isolation in this part of my life, I got better at it.
	And it was like it was clumsy.
	So I think I did a lot of what you said.
	And I was very forgiving of myself and very, very public about that.
	And I really just didn't have shame about being a bit of a klutz.
	And actually, I could kind of embrace that because it's like learning does not have to be a miserable process.
	In my childhood, there were some things that learning was horrible.
	Like my grandmother trying to teach me piano was a horrible experience because she sucked as a teacher.
	And so learning it just became very negative.
	But there were other things that I learned that were very fun.
	And so for me, I don't see why, at least hypothetically speaking, the process of learning Breaking out of isolation and building bonds with people in a more mature, healthy way couldn't also, hypothetically, at least for some people, potentially for all people, be a fun process.
	If it's all like, you know, you're doing it with people who are also voluntarily into this and know what they're getting into and are also, you know, maybe to some degree going through some degree of this process.
	The other thing is, though, it's like, well, what if What if someone who's very uncomfortable with friendships wants to be friends with me, let's say, and I'm not in that awkward place.
	It's very comfortable for me.
	Well, maybe then there's an imbalance, and then it might not actually work that well.
	So maybe it's easier to also start with relationships with people who are also a bit clumsy at it, so people can go through it together.
	I'm putting it out hypothetically.
	I wonder what you think about that.
	How was your experience of your first friendships?
	Was it with people who were super experienced and super confident and comfortable, or is it with people who were also a little awkward and clumsy and it was new for, and so you were all kind of making mistakes together?
	That's a fantastic subject, Daniel.
	I know there's a lot of people that I identified, like, you know, this person is someone that I'd like to have in my life.
	They seem, you know, they're really positive, they share my values, and they seem like someone that, you know, I would like to spend more time with.
	And I was able to identify that, and I also identified that sometimes those people were a lot further along the self-knowledge journey than I was.
	There was several times where I'd reach out to certain people and I would make it awkward or it would just be uncomfortable.
	And I would understand that and I would acknowledge that.
	The cool thing was though, and this goes back to what you were saying around getting information.
	Everything that you do, you're getting information.
	If I was awkward around someone and they were to be hostile towards me or treat me poorly because of that, because of, you know, here's someone that doesn't have any real experience over 20 years old, not having any real experience in negotiating these kind of relationships and building these kind of relationships.
	If someone were to be hostile towards me and not have any empathy for someone in that kind of situation, that's not someone that I really want to be friends with and want to have in my life anyway.
	Makes sense.
	So yeah, even if those relationships didn't work out exactly as how I would have idealized or wanted them to go, like, hey, we've become best friends or something, it was tremendously useful information to me.
	And even if it was something where it's like, hey, the person generally communicated their experience to me, that was important information for me to go on.
	Take back to my therapist, examine, journal about, really think about.
	And it taught me so much about myself.
	And it helped me identify, hey, you know, these people, maybe I'm not in a place right now where I can be the kind of friend to them that they're looking for right now.
	That's okay.
	That's okay.
	I'm not bad.
	I'm not flawed.
	I'm not broken.
	There's nothing to be ashamed of there.
	And maybe they aren't either.
	Sure, absolutely.
	Yeah, and it was definitely a thing where I learned so much about myself.
	I learned about other people.
	I learned about honesty in relationships and what you said before about Like, embracing the awkwardness of being like, yeah, I'm not very good at this, or this is kind of awkward, or this is how I'm feeling.
	Just really embracing that honesty, I find to be so incredibly helpful.
	And it produces some real intimacy in conversations that I find to be, I mean, like, oh, that's like the gas on my fire is that kind of intimacy, where I can really connect and talk to people about what's happening beyond, you know, like, hey, you know, how's the weather?
	And, oh, the local sports team scored a goal unit or basket last week.
	Fantastic.
	Yeah, I also think it's interesting just to observe, quote, regular people in the world, especially guys, but women too.
	It's like, I watch guys, these packs of guys hanging out, and the absolute inanity of their conversations.
	It's like, it's just like they've mastered the art of small talk, but I think small talk even makes it sound better than it is.
	It's like, just talking about these subjects that are like, so irrelevant to anything internal, and it's like, I was never very good at that.
	I never fit in and I always blamed myself like there was something wrong with me.
	Like I hadn't mastered this art of knowing how to like take myself and shove myself in a shoebox and put it in the closet.
	It's like, I don't know.
	So I hear you too about like, about it being very special and intimate when you can actually talk about what you're feeling with people.
	But I don't know.
	It's like, I guess for me, can I, can I riff in a different direction a little bit here?
	Oh, absolutely, go for it.
	Unless you wanted to finish your thought, because I jumped in.
	No, no, go for it, Daniel.
	Well, one thing I noticed for me is that in the last few years, I've had a lot of people reach out to me, and it's like, I don't often have a lot of extra energy to interact with people, especially on the internet.
	And that's been a real source of discomfort for me, because I'll have people email me, you know, like, 2,000 word emails about their life story, and I may be the first person they've ever told stuff to.
	And they're really, like, making a wonderful, like, reach out to be friends with me, and it's like, how do I do that when I've had, like, nine people in the last week do that?
	And it's like, and they have such a need, and they're often lovely, lovely people.
	And it's like, if they had emailed me that 10 years earlier, it would have been like the most wonderful thing that had happened to me in a month.
	And it's like 10 years later, it's like, oh my god, I don't even have time to read this.
	You know?
	And it's like, I feel horrible because I get people sometimes who are very isolated, who something I've written or said really resonates with them.
	And they suddenly feel like, oh my God, here's someone I think I could connect with.
	And they reach out to me and I'm like, I recognize and I sense all that.
	And I'm like, I don't even have the time.
	It's like, maybe I don't even have the internet connection.
	And it's like, I've got to answer all these emails and I've got to do my work.
	And it's like, I try to be polite.
	And sometimes I think people feel hurt.
	And yet I don't want to not be a public figure.
	I don't want to be inaccessible to people.
	So I sometimes feel very sensitive.
	I don't like the feeling that I'm rejecting people, but I definitely know people sometimes have felt rejected.
	Because I also very much relate to what it's like to...
	Basically, I'm sorry, I'm going to put it in my own terms.
	I know what it's like to have no friends because I've had many periods of my life where I had no friends.
	And I've also, I've known what it's like, like my father and my sister too.
	My father used to bully me about it.
	My father used to say, you know what, Daniel, you have no friends.
	He said this when I was a teenager.
	The closest thing you have to a friend is the dog, our dog Rascal.
	And guess what?
	He doesn't even like you that much.
	And you know what?
	It was true.
	Our dog didn't really even like me that much because I would take out my anger on him sometimes.
	And it's like, my dad would say that to me, and it was like...
	I just felt horrible about myself.
	My sister could be at times very, very popular and she was younger than me.
	She had guys flirting around her all the time and she had a lot of friends and she was doing stuff.
	She was taller than me and I was this awkward kid who didn't go into puberty until I was 16.
	I felt horrible about myself.
	I really just didn't know how to connect with people.
	It really had a profound effect on who I am as a person to go through many years of just feeling very alienated and isolated.
	And many periods in my 20s.
	And in my 30s I've even had those times.
	And it's like, I think on the flip side, it's made me very, very sensitive to the plight of people I think it's pressured me to naturally gravitate toward people who feel left out or marginalized or alienated.
	It's definitely fueled me as a therapist and just as a person in the world.
	I don't know.
	I mean, a lot of those skills, it's like I learned them.
	And I'll be honest, thank God I did.
	And I say God very loosely.
	But I really feel very fortunate that I learned those skills because they didn't come easy to me.
	And it was very hard and very painful.
	And it was a lot of trial by fire.
	It was easier for me to become a skillful guitar player.
	But the other thing is tomorrow, I'm actually flying to Sweden tomorrow and I'm going to be in Europe for three months.
	I have my first two weeks of three and a half months planned out and then I have three months where I don't know where I'm going or what I'm doing exactly.
	And I guarantee, I know there are going to be times where I'm going to be in countries where I don't speak the language and I have no friends.
	And it's like...
	And it's like, those are times where I know I'm going to be lonely, and I know it's going to be hard.
	And it's like, to be honest, I'm nervous.
	I'm not really looking forward to it, but I know it's an inevitable part of the way that I travel.
	And it's like, I'm glad now at least that I have the skills to know how to break out of my isolation.
	I know how to talk to people.
	One skill that I've gained is, even in other languages, it's like, I can read, I learn languages easily, and I listen to people, I care about people, I I really try to understand them.
	I listen to their body language.
	I use empathy a lot.
	These are ways that I try to build bonds with people because people generally gravitate toward nice people.
	I've learned to be nice and to be caring and to listen and try to know who they are.
	To not be intrusive, to be respectful.
	All these are things that, had I really had these skills as a teenager, I probably would have been a lot happier as a person.
	But instead, I was going on the templates of a lot of how I was treated by my parents, which was often I was treated disrespectfully.
	I was teased.
	I was bullied.
	I was left alone a lot.
	I was pressured to be perfect.
	I was abused in different ways.
	Intimacy was a dangerous thing.
	There was a lot of weirdness that went along with intimacy.
	So I brought all those things into relationships with people And a lot of that I had to unlearn and I had to relearn how to get along with people and how to be like a nice, caring, gentle, empathic, respectful, honorable person, a person with integrity, a person who was the kind of person that other people wanted to be around.
	And the more that I did that and the more that I did develop good friends, really good friends, people who really care about me and And also develop the skill set in a very conscious way to be able to start from ground zero and to build a fairly close circle of friends very quickly.
	And I'm grateful for it.
	And it's like, so when you bring up that question, yeah, it's near and dear to my heart.
	And it's like, I'm sure it's like, I don't know.
	Do you have any more thoughts on it?
	I just want to say, Daniel, I'm sorry to hear about your experience in early childhood around relationships and friendships.
	It's very similar to mine.
	I think the way you communicate about it, I find that there's a real strength now, having come from that place and having moved past it.
	I was in a place where it's so incredibly difficult for me to connect with people.
	Having been there and grown from it, I have a far greater view of the world and relationships and people.
	I have a real deep sense of empathy for people that are in that far too common spot of feeling really awkward or insecure or uncomfortable and terrified of making mistakes.
	How are people going to view me?
	Did I say something funny?
	Are people going to think I'm stupid?
	I have a very deep I'm very perceptive in regards to other people's feelings around that because I came from that place.
	And I think because of that, I have a much richer view now than someone who, you know, grew up and maybe they had a better template for making friends.
	Maybe it was a little more superficial.
	You know, maybe it was talking about, you know, the local sports team or something like that.
	But, you know, it was comfortable for them making friends.
	I think I have a real deep understanding of relationships and an empathy for people that, you know, people...
	It was easy for them or they had that template that they don't have now because they haven't gone through such a process and such a transformation and put in hundreds of hours of work and therapy and journaling and just really, really breaking it down and figuring it out.
	I'm with you.
	Yeah, and I even feel a little like, ooh, I was a little harsher about people who have inane conversations because sometimes I have them and actually they're kind of fun to relax and just chill out and talk about dumb shit.
	It's like, sometimes I like to do that.
	Oh, I love to do it too.
	No worries there.
	But I was thinking about this.
	Like, okay, I was there in Boston the other day.
	I noticed I'm thinking about it a little bit less than I was because for a few days it was all I could think about just after I saw that awful stuff.
	But it's like, that was horrible.
	I had a lot of empathy and still have it for the people that I saw that were terribly traumatized by that experience.
	But when I watched...
	The way that the media has been portraying these two bombers and these two brothers who supposedly did this bombing.
	And I read the news and watch the comments that people around America are saying and watch the way that so many people around, especially in this country, in America, are handling that.
	I also have empathy for those two guys.
	It's like, Jesus Christ.
	The alienation they must have been going through and the loneliness and the isolation and the rage that they had.
	I just think of, like, what must have happened to those guys?
	I feel especially in a way for the older brother to cause them to do that terrible thing, to put nails and BBs in a pressure cooker and blow people apart.
	It's like, Just the level of isolation and alienation.
	I mean, it goes exactly along the lines of what you said.
	That brother, the older brother, I think posted somewhere on the internet that he doesn't understand Americans and he's never had one true friend here.
	And I thought, I feel for that guy.
	When I read that, I was like, it doesn't take away from the horrible thing that he did.
	He did a horrible thing.
	But it's also like, I think we also need to, as a society and as a humanity, to look at What drives people to do that?
	And what's the real cure?
	The cure is not to, like, put these people to death and to vilify them as, you know, evil Muslim, this, that, terrorist, whatever they are, you know, all these stupid words, you know, instead it's like, you know, these people,
	a guy who could never make friends, who couldn't somehow fit in, who's Cultural history and his traumas and whose family probably just really blocked him from being able to, like, do what we're talking about.
	He didn't overcome it.
	He didn't learn those skills.
	And also, coming to a culture where he was, you know, an alienated cultural and religious minority, where it's like he didn't It probably was not easy for him.
	I mean, I actually, as a therapist, have worked with...
	I mean, I know he was ethnic Chechnyan, but, you know, in a sense, Russian.
	But I've worked with a lot of, in the United States, in New York, Russian immigrants who came over here, came here as teenagers and were brought over as refugees by their families.
	And it's like...
	A lot of the girls seem to do better than the guys.
	A lot of the guys.
	And not just from Russia, but from other places.
	It's just like they didn't fit in as well.
	They didn't learn the language as well.
	They still had accents 10, 15 years later.
	And they just...
	It's like...
	It was really, really painful.
	Now, I didn't work with anyone who responded by, like, blowing people up, but I saw a lot of people who were really angry and really hurt and felt very let down and wished, actually, that even though they were, you know, persecuted in their own countries of origin, which is why their families left, they're like, I wish I'd never left.
	It was better over there than in this horrible country called America where I was just treated as a dirty Russian or, you know, an Arab or whatever it was that they were treated as, and here I was just a dirty Indian, you know, and it's like, you know, so I don't know.
	I wish I could help people more who felt really alienated because it's very painful.
	Again, I feel very fortunate that I've overcome a lot of those humps that at one point I had no idea how to get over.
	And it was just like I went to bed crying a lot at night and I hated myself.
	And that was a vicious cycle because the more I hated myself, the more it was like I had no idea how to be authentic around people because how was I supposed to start a friendship when I would say to people, you know, Listen, it's a little awkward for me making friends because I fucking despise myself and I think I'm a fucking loser.
	So do you want to be my friend?
	Do you know what I mean?
	I didn't know how to start.
	And so it's like when people feel those things, it's like an almost insurmountable barrier.
	And it's like that's part of why it's like it really requires...
	Being able to find the right people.
	So when I heard that the younger brother, who was a bomber, even though he was an integrated American, more or less, he was still hanging out with Russians a lot and talking in Russian.
	It's like, yeah, it probably was a place where some deep part of him felt very safe being around people who were more peers.
	I think it's really important for people to find peers at whatever level being a peer is.
	That was important for me, too.
	It was definitely ramping up.
	I didn't find my best friends in life immediately.
	I had friends who I met in certain ways early on, but I didn't meet my closest friend until I was in my late 20s.
	Until then, I never had someone who I really felt incredibly deeply bonded with.
	Basically, I felt pretty alone until my late 20s.
	I certainly had a very similar experience in that regard.
	What you said around if you don't If you don't love yourself, if you're not happy with the person you are, it's going to be almost impossible for you to connect with other people.
	Because if you're bringing to the table at the first go, like, hey, I don't even like myself.
	So the other person is going to be like, hey, well, if you don't like yourself, then why should...
	What is there for me to really pick up on and communicate and connect you with?
	Yeah.
	And another thing for me...
	Just to cut in.
	Another thing that I would do for myself...
	Especially as a teenager, it wasn't my personality that I hated.
	I played it out on my body.
	I hated my body.
	I was too short.
	I was too skinny.
	I hadn't gone into puberty.
	I didn't have enough proper body hair.
	My voice was wrong.
	My ears stuck out.
	Actually, when I was 18, I begged my parents to let me get plastic surgery to get my ears pulled in because I hated the way my ears looked.
	I hated them.
	I totally externalize my hatred of myself because in a way, my hatred of myself On the inside, I didn't even know how to deal with it.
	So at least I could control my body.
	I could try to lift weights, and I could get in better shape.
	At least I kept growing.
	I was so short.
	It was by chance.
	I went from being the shortest kid in my class to growing until I was 21, and now I'm almost 6'5".
	It was magic to me that that happened.
	But, but it was like, I was obsessed with my haircuts and putting mousse in my hair and doing all these things and constantly rinsing my mouth out with mouthwash.
	And it's just like, it was like, I was this, I was a kid who was tormented inside and I would take it out of myself and loss.
	And also I was, I was mean to other kids.
	I wasn't the nicest kid because I took it out of other kids who I sensed were weaker than I was.
	It was like, so I still have a lot of like, I mean, I've worked through a lot of it, but it was like, dude, I would not want to go through my teen years again because of what I did to myself, because of what other people did to me, and because of what I did to other people.
	I'm a survivor.
	I hear you, Daniel.
	I certainly did some things in the past that I'm not proud of either.
	It was very difficult to look back on and acknowledge and really focus on.
	You mentioned you would take some facet of your appearance, like your ears or how tall you were.
	I know for me, I had bad acne when I was younger.
	That was the thing.
	It was like, if I could just fix this...
	All my problems will be solved.
	If this one external visible thing, if I could fix this, it could be solved.
	And if it wasn't the acne, if that problem was solved, there would have been another problem.
	There would have been some other external solution that I had limited control over.
	If this was fixed, there would always be that next thing.
	The goalpost would be moved.
	And that was just, for me, a distraction from really...
	Sitting down and being like, I am just, I am not happy, and I need help.
	The problem for me is there was no help.
	There was nobody to help me.
	I had nowhere to go.
	It's like my parents, to be blunt, they were fucking useless.
	They were worse than useless.
	They were making it worse.
	It's like nobody, none of my peers were helpful.
	My teachers were horrible.
	And it's like my friends' parents, they mostly didn't even like me, or I didn't even know them.
	It was like literally, I was in this void of mature people.
	And it was like, So I spent a lot of time alone.
	It was the best solution.
	And I know, Daniel, I mean, I was culturally taught that, you know, if you ask for help, you're weak.
	Me too.
	You know, if you admit that you need help, you're weak and you shouldn't do that, you know, you need to hide that.
	And, I mean, I certainly did.
	I hid that as best I could, even though it was plainly obvious to anyone with even a shred of self-knowledge that, you know, hey, this person's in some real crisis.
	They need some help.
	But, you know, I tried to hide that away as best I could and just make it through the days because I didn't want to be perceived as weak because that would be one more thing.
	One more thing that would lead to me not being able to connect with people or not being able to, you know, live the kind of life that I wanted to live.
	And for me, there's one little thing in addition to what you're saying, is that sometimes my feelings have become so overwhelming that I would crack and I would let out my desperate need for help.
	And then it was usually, it made it even worse, because then people would either come in, be really smarmy, and like, try to fix my life in a way that wasn't for my sake, but was to make their life feel better, or they would just put me down and humiliate me.
	So it's like, it was, it was like my experience with reaching out for help was, was 99% of the time extremely negative and made me feel ashamed and worse.
	So it was like, Basically, what I spent a lot of time doing was shutting down, doing my own projects, and biding my time until I became an adult, because somehow I was convinced it's going to be better when I was an adult.
	It just has to be better than this shit.
	And I don't know if it was luck, hard work, or a lot of other factors, but...
	It did get better.
	It really did.
	And I feel grateful.
	I'm not a miserable, horrible, depressed person anymore.
	I was a lot of those things.
	Also, the thing is, I did what I could.
	I did really well in school.
	I kept my body in good shape.
	I studied a lot because I was like, you know, I don't think doing well in school is going to hurt me.
	Because I saw it as a tool to my salvation.
	I actually hated school.
	But I saw it as a means to an end because I was like, I didn't respect the school system.
	I didn't respect college.
	I thought my teachers were idiots.
	But I was like, well, you know, at least if I do well there, maybe I can use it as a platform to get more out of life, which eventually it did.
	But now it's like I would never want to go back to school unless it was to learn some specific trade.
	But anyways, I noticed that we have three minutes left.
	How should we wrap this up?
	Is there other people to ask anything or do you want to just talk with me or what should we do?
	Well, Daniel, if you'd like to tell people about, you know, the projects you have coming up, you know, what's currently on your website, your new website, by the way.
	If you could just tell people what you got going on, how they can get in contact with you, and yeah, just a general wrap-up.
	Well, my new website is wildtruth.net.
	So wildtruth.net, and all my projects.
	I've been working massively on projects for the last, I don't know how long, year and a half, year.
	I finished my newest films on coming off psych drugs, and it's mostly people who have come off them themselves.
	It's not a bunch of therapists talking.
	It's people who have been there who have come off anti-psychotics, anti-depressants, mood stabilizers, anti-anxiety drugs, benzos, and It's a combination of—it's partially inspirational, it's also how-to, and it's also philosophical.
	So it's a combination, and it's a super radical film.
	There's nothing out there that's like it.
	It's already starting to get popular in the world of people who are trying to remake and crush the psychiatric system.
	So that's one.
	The other one is my first three films, which was all about recovery from psychosis without psychiatric drugs.
	I got a grant a year and a half ago.
	Or a little over a year ago, sorry, to get them translated into a whole bunch of languages.
	So right now, two of them are translated into 19 languages, and one of them is translated into 17 languages.
	And that's all on my website.
	There's YouTube trailers for each of the three films that are translated into all those languages, and then I sell the DVDs.
	So that's basically how I make my living, is selling these DVDs, and I go to screenings and sell films.
	And so what's coming up for me is...
	I have a new book that I'm going to have to finish.
	I've written it, but I haven't gotten a chance to go back and edit it.
	It's about people who break up with their parents, and it's all about that on a lot of levels.
	I haven't looked at it in a year, so I'm curious to go back when I get a chance and finish that up and publish it.
	I made a new website.
	I have a lot of new essays coming out.
	I write a lot about critiquing the mental health system and And I'm going traveling.
	Starting tomorrow, I'm going to more or less go off the grid for a few months.
	My DVDs will still be for sale because I have a friend in New York who mails them out for me.
	But I'll be going to some conferences in Europe, do some film screenings, and then, I don't know, maybe just get a chance to relax and be with myself and just have some good internal times.
	Maybe I'll learn a new language.
	I really am not sure.
	I have no idea what's coming up.
	It's exciting.
	It's a bit stressful.
	Then I come back to the U.S. in August and go to a bunch more conferences.
	In the fall, I'll be in Australia for a month doing the conference thing.
	I really don't know.
	My life is kind of unpredictable at this point.
	Sometimes I want to start the podcast thing on my website.
	This was a great chance for me.
	Actually, I've learned a lot from Free Domain Radio.
	I've learned a lot from listening to Stefan and studying him.
	It was really interesting to meet him yesterday.
	I'm wondering.
	I really thought about it a lot during the night.
	What of his model, of his way of reaching people can I incorporate?
	What of it is relevant to my way of doing things?
	Because I think he's done some things that are pretty amazing, and I really look up to him.
	And I think, like, how can I take some of those and, you know, get my message heard better?
	And so I'm thinking about it.
	I don't have the answers.
	But for me, this was a good chance to practice.
	I've never done a...
	I think I'm a bit clumsy as a radio host, but at the same time, I think it was pretty fun.
	So I guess that's about it.
	All I'd say is, well, thanks a lot.
	Great opportunity, and best of luck to everyone out there.
	Thank you so much for being the guest host today.
	Yeah, thanks for having me on.

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