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Feb. 24, 2013 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:57:56

2334 Stefan Molyneux on Free Talk Live with Stephanie Murphy and Brian Sovryn

Stefan Molyneux, host of Freedomain Radio, joins Stephanie Murphy and Brian Sovryn on the 2/24/13 edition of Free Talk Live.

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	This is Free Talk Live!
	Welcome to the show.
	So glad that you're joining us tonight.
	My name is Stephanie and Brian's here with me too.
	Brian Sovereign.
	And we've got a special guest on the show tonight.
	But I just want to say before we begin, you are listening to the live Sunday night edition of Free Talk Live.
	We're on several different radio stations as well as the internet.
	And we're also going to be appearing on not just our own podcast, but the podcast of our guest that we have on tonight.
	Going to wait a moment for the big reveal.
	But since Free Talk Live is a live show, that means you can call in and participate.
	You can talk about anything that you want.
	And the number to do that is 855-450-FREE. That's 855-450 and then the word free, spelling out, you know, 3733.
	Genuine live Sunday night programming.
	Yeah, you won't find that too many other places.
	Not much else.
	So I'm really glad to be here tonight.
	And okay, let's get right to it.
	We're going to start off the show and bring on our special guest.
	We've got Stefan Molyneux with us.
	Hi, Steph.
	Hi, how's it going?
	Thanks for the invitation.
	It's a great pleasure to be here.
	Hello, Brian.
	Hello, Stefan.
	I'm so glad that you're here tonight, Stefan.
	So first of all, I guess we should back up the train and explain a little bit.
	This show is going to be a little bit different than most other Free Talk Lives.
	Weren't we going to call it Free Domain Talk Live?
	Yeah, because the name of Steph's radio show is Free Domain Radio.
	And it's a very popular podcast and he's got a YouTube channel that has millions of views.
	So, you know, I'm really honored that he's here with us tonight.
	And so, you know, Free Talk Live, Free Domain Radio are teaming up.
	We can make some funny names out of that.
	But also, you know, my name is Stephanie and we've got Stefan here.
	So we were kind of joking.
	It's, you know, it's kind of like the Steph and Steph and Brian show, right?
	That works for me.
	Yes, and I don't mind taking the second, Steph.
	You can have the first one.
	Usually I go by Stephanie, so hopefully it won't get too confusing.
	You can be Steph and I'll be Stephanie.
	How's that?
	Perfect.
	Cool.
	Okay, so Mark is away this week, by the way.
	Usually you hear Mark Edge on Free Talk Live on Sunday nights, but he's out of town this week, so he's given us sort of control over the studio.
	We've used the opportunity to bring on Stefan to co-host with us.
	The anarchists are running Free Talk Live.
	Uh-oh.
	Oh my.
	Well, I don't see any chaos going on, do you?
	None.
	No, nothing yet, but I will be breaking into fluent Esperanto mixed in with some African clicking language about halfway through the show, which I'm sure will appeal to your more geographically diverse audience.
	That's the plan.
	Right.
	Hey, you don't say that about my mother.
	That's my job.
	So, Steph, could you give us a brief overview for somebody who's never heard of Free Domain Radio before?
	First of all, I wanted to say that I do listen to your show.
	I really enjoy it.
	I've been listening for a couple of years now.
	And Brian, I think you do too, right?
	Yes, I do listen.
	And, you know, I want the people who listen to Free Talk Live to have a chance to learn about your show, because I think that a lot of people who hear Free Talk Live would also really enjoy picking up your stuff as well.
	So, can you give us a brief overview of what you're all about?
	Well, yeah, thanks.
	So, of course, the website is freedomainradio.com.
	We've just, I think, passed about 50 million downloads, 14 or 15 million shows on YouTube.
	So, yeah, it's doing well.
	The general idea was, what if...
	What if we had a host that wasn't really very smart, but had an accent?
	That made him sound more intelligent.
	That's really the backbone of the business plan.
	What you can do is you can either go to school and study a whole bunch of stuff and make yourself really smart, or you can just spend an afternoon attempting to perfect the kind of middle-of-the-colonies vaguely British intellectual accent.
	Clearly the latter is much more economically efficient, so that really was the goal.
	How much of a house of cards of pseudo-intellectualism can we build on the foundation Of a rather gay, semi-Australian accent.
	And that, I'm telling you, it's really quite a high house of cards.
	So it's a philosophy show and we talk about all the good first principle stuff, you know, ethics and free will and all the way to relationships and how we bring virtue into our everyday existence.
	You know, one of the great challenges of libertarian thought is, you know, it's a whole lot of gas and no traction, right?
	I mean, it's like, oh, I hate the Fed.
	What can I do about the Fed?
	Nothing.
	Oh, I hate the government.
	What can I do about the government?
	Nothing.
	And so I've sort of always tried from the beginning, you know, the tagline at the very beginning of the show was the logic of personal and political liberty.
	And the personal comes first.
	So I've tried to find ways to get the non-aggression principle, respect for property rights, and all that kind of good ethical foundation that libertarianism is built on and anarchism, and say, oh, what if we actually drop these rotating tires on the road?
	Where can we Actually get to.
	And so I've had a lot of focus on that.
	That's why I bring in parenting experts, psychology experts, experts on relationships and how we can have non-aggression in our relationships and in our parenting and so on.
	So that's really been the goal is get the big abstract ideals knelt down and then really just try and get them into people's lives as much as possible.
	Yeah, I mean, I bet there might be a few people out there who, very few people out there, who might say, yeah, I want to have aggression in my relationship.
	But most people, I think, who are listening to the sound of our voices will say, no, I want my relationships to be totally voluntary, right?
	And so, you know, if that sounds good to you, then keep on listening, right?
	Because who doesn't want more freedom in their lives?
	A lot of times on Free Talk Live, we end up talking about current events.
	And I think sometimes people can get into this mindset of, oh, look at all this tyranny in the world.
	Look at what's going on.
	What the heck can I actually do about it?
	Like you said, Steph.
	And they just have no clue where to turn.
	But one of the reasons that I've really picked up on that message of personal freedom, like trying to get as much liberty in our lives right here, right now, As we possibly can was, you know, because of hearing you talk about it.
	So I really think that has value.
	And what about you, Brian?
	Oh, I agree completely.
	Yeah.
	And so, you know, she sounds like an excellent co-host.
	I just, I wanted to make, I wish I had, I wish I had this kind of co-host.
	I know I'm a total, I'm a total yes, man.
	It's great.
	Beautiful.
	Hey, if you're looking for a second gig, man, probably up on Sunday mornings, that'd be great.
	We'll talk later.
	Love it.
	All right.
	So, Steph, you are a philosopher.
	You're interested in philosophy.
	And I think as part of that, would you say that there are certain conclusions that come out of a basis of philosophical consistency and applying reason, logic, and empiricism to your life, right?
	Like maybe a love of liberty, right?
	A valuing of human freedom.
	Yeah, I mean, you'd really be amazed how much philosophy we do every day.
	I mean, it sounds like a very abstract, you know, the top of the mountain guru floating on a cloud or some ivory tower abstract polysyllabic dissertation or whatever, but the reality is that we are philosophical all the time, all the time.
	Every time you have a disagreement with someone where you attempt to correct them using reason and evidence, bang!
	You are a philosophical cornerstone Of the mental world.
	Every time you say, well, I'm going to defer the instant gratification, say, of getting angry and try to work with someone in a productive way, that is a philosophical decision.
	When you say we should respect property rights, you stole something from me, or you shouldn't have lied.
	These are all ethical arguments.
	And if you sort of slow down your life in slow motion, we're doing that in the third hour, right?
	Really slow motion.
	But if you slow down your life, you'll see philosophy at work all the time.
	You know, it's not like being a brain surgeon.
	Being a brain surgeon, hopefully, is not, you know, if it's your job, one thing, you don't want to end your life on a regular basis.
	But philosophy, if you really slow down your life and see what you're doing, it's everywhere.
	The problem is that we're all driving, but we're generally blindfolded.
	And without an abstract understanding, people tend to do What was done to them, particularly in terms of parenting.
	People tend to do what the majority does, which is what we're all taught is so great in democracy.
	The majority is never wrong, except in Germany in 1933, in Italy in 1932, in Japan, anyway.
	But the idea is that philosophy permeates everything that we do.
	As a parent, I'm around a lot of other parents, you listen to them all the time.
	All they're doing, all they're doing every day, all day, is making moral arguments with their children.
	You know, you shouldn't push him.
	Pushing is wrong.
	How would you like it if somebody pushed you?
	Well, appeal to universality.
	Appeal to empathy.
	Appeal to what is preferential to everyone.
	You know, don't steal.
	Stealing is wrong.
	That's another argument, right?
	You need to share.
	Selfish not to share.
	Selfish is a pejorative moral argument.
	I mean, we see this all the time.
	You see this with couples who are having disagreements.
	About, you know, should we go to this aunt we don't like for lunch?
	Well, I don't like her, so I don't think we should be hypocrites.
	Well, but she's been there for us, and, you know, she's lonely, and so should we have compassion and put our own feelings aside?
	I mean, if you really notice it, every single time, you are making moral arguments.
	So, for instance, you guys, to get me on the show, kidnapped my dog.
	I want to get my dog back.
	And therefore, I'm going to- Should we give it back to him, Brian?
	She's safe.
	I could just talk to Lil Scruffy.
	I would be so happy.
	Don't cry on the show about the dog stealing.
	Okay.
	All right, Steph.
	Hold on the line if you would.
	We're going to come back with more and we'll talk a little bit more specifically.
	How can we get freedom in our lives?
	It's Free Talk Live.
	855-450-FREE is our number.
	And there's more coming up.
	up.
	Stay tuned.
	Welcome back to the show.
	You You are listening to Free Talk Live.
	Free Talk Live is a show where you can call and bring up anything that's on your mind.
	We do have a special guest on the line tonight, or a guest co-host, more like.
	I'll treat him as a co-host.
	Sure.
	And it's Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain Radio.
	Hi, Stefan.
	Hello, hello.
	And the number to call if you want to get in touch with us tonight.
	You should be able to talk to all three of us.
	So I'll let you in on a little behind-the-scenes secret.
	Brian and I are here in the studio tonight.
	Right, Brian?
	Right.
	And Stefan is Skyping into the show because he's actually remote.
	He's up in Canada.
	And we are based out of New Hampshire in the U.S. So we're in different tax farms, right?
	As you would say, Stefan, right?
	Yeah, we're in different tax farms.
	And, of course, one of the reasons that I wouldn't want to come into your studio, despite the pleasure of your company, is that You know, anything warmer than minus 20 just doesn't feel right at this time of year.
	So, yeah, I mean, I would be a puddle of intellectual pseudo-goo on the seat.
	And that's not good.
	That's not a good visual.
	Well, they can't stop us from connecting, even though we are, you know, separated by imaginary lines known as borders.
	If only we had the freedom of TCP IP packets, how free we would actually be.
	They don't care about borders.
	We don't even know stinking borders.
	We just could go through the pipes.
	Exactly.
	And if you want to get in touch with us tonight, then the number to call is 855-450-FREE. 855-450-FREE, the word free.
	And I guess we won't be taking any calls by Skype tonight because we've got the Skype account sort of occupied with Skype.
	Steph is occupying the Skype on the LRN studio, but we'd be happy to take your phone calls.
	By the way, Free Talk Live is live tonight.
	You're listening to the live Sunday night edition, but Free Talk Live is also live every single day of the week.
	It's pretty unique.
	You know, it's 21 hours of live content every single week.
	Yeah, three hours every night, seven nights a week.
	And the podcast of every show is available for free download on freetalklive.com.
	So you can go there.
	You'll see the last seven days of the show archives right up at the top of the page.
	And there's also a Free Talk Live SoundCloud page where you can download, you know, hundreds of hours, thousands of hours.
	Years and years worth.
	And you can access all the back archives at archives.freetalklive.com.
	So I just want to let people know about this because I know that there are going to be some people who are just tuning in tonight and they're saying, hmm, what's this show?
	I've never heard anything like this before.
	And there are probably going to be people hearing about us on Steph's podcast feed as well.
	So, very good, now that we've got that clear.
	Steph, you know, I wanted to talk to you a little bit more about, like, can we get a little bit more, I guess, specific?
	In the last segment, we talked about a sort of a broad intro to what it is that you do and sort of like a little taste of philosophy.
	But, you know, what does it mean to you to apply the ideas of voluntarism to things like relationships?
	Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
	Sure.
	I mean, so I think most people in the world respect what's called the non-aggression principle, do not initiate force, except in self-defense.
	Now, most people carve the whole universe into these two spheres, right?
	The public and the private.
	And the public is subject to completely inverse moral laws.
	So then we say, well, taxation is necessary to run society, but I would never go and steal from my neighbor.
	And it's like, but these are two of the same things.
	So we have this, you know, philosophy is really about breaking down barriers.
	And philosophy, unfortunately for the most of human history, has been owned by the rulers.
	In other words, the rulers find it advantageous to create positive ethical obligations that are universal and then exclude themselves by using different languages.
	So you can't steal, but we can tax.
	You can't counterfeit, but we can print money.
	You can't compel people, but we must compel people.
	And keeping these two things apart has been a huge wasting feat of intellectual contortionism throughout human history.
	Of course, philosophy is really about binding things together.
	If you're going to have a principle, Then make it universal.
	I mean, this is just basic, you know, like a rock doesn't fall just in Australia.
	It falls everywhere.
	There's gravity.
	Exactly.
	So it really is just around appealing to the universality.
	And then when you try and bring that into your own life, because, you know, we all are tempted to blow our greatest thoughts into the stratosphere where they do no harm to anyone by, you know, railing against things, power structures we can't control.
	Oh, I hate that foreign policy.
	Well, okay.
	But Some very elemental questions come in, which is, okay, if you teach your children particular religious commandments, do you have good reasons behind them, or are you teaching them to deny their own reason and evidence?
	That's a very essential moral question, which we all have to face at one time or another.
	If you have children, of course, do you hit them?
	Do you spank them?
	Well, 80-90% of parents do, and these are the ones who admit it.
	In England, almost half of mothers spank their children before their children are even one year old, in other words, infants.
	I think they'd probably try and get little cattle prods in the womb if they could.
	They'd treat them so harshly.
	And the same people who say that, I would not want to be hit, or it's not okay for one adult to hit another, would say, oh, it's perfectly fine for an adult to hit a child, or their child, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	I mean, tragically, children remain in the moral category that women were about 100, 150 years ago, where, you know, hey, you have to discipline your wife.
	Otherwise, she'll just go off and spend your money and not listen to you.
	And so you have to hit her, of course, right?
	Can't be trusted.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	And I think little vixens and, you know, you got to keep a firm lid on them.
	I mean, just look at the Muslim countries, right?
	I mean, this is medieval stuff, but we still have this cornerstone of medievalism, the way we treat our children.
	So does spanking violate the non-aggression principle?
	Well, I think that the very strong arguments that it does.
	I mean, it's not self-defense and there's many more peaceful alternatives and it is harmful to the child's development, the cognitive, emotional, social, even psychomotor IQ is harmed.
	By being spanked and verbal skills and so on.
	So, you know, it's destructive, it's harmful, it's a violation of the non-aggression principle.
	I would really like for more libertarians to get into the question of, is it a violation of the non-aggression principle to spank your kids?
	Because, boy, imagine if we were a spank-free community.
	I think that would show some real consistency.
	It'd be a whole new world.
	And by the way, you've got a video on your YouTube channel called Facts About Spanking.
	That's a very good introduction video for anybody who's just coming across this idea and wants to find out more, right?
	Yeah, I mean, the research has been out there for decades, but there's such a strong resistance.
	I did an interview with one of the key researchers in the area, Dr.
	Elizabeth Gershoff, and she said that they try to get spanking studies out, but there's just a huge amount of resistance to the time.
	I'm sure.
	Which, of course, you know, I mean, if parents feel it's both necessary and moral, and then if you take it away, then they imagine, you know, like you think if you take the government away, human beings are going to run rampant riots in the streets, you know, hair on fire, you know, you get perved war through the windows of Starbucks or whatever.
	It's not the case.
	Same thing with kids.
	If you don't use aggression with kids, they calm down.
	They don't get wilder.
	Well, you know, and I imagine that, you know, the editors of these journals who are reading these studies that show, you know, look, spanking is harmful to children's development.
	It's probably very uncomfortable for them when they read something like that to think about, wow, my parents did something to me that may have hurt me.
	Or maybe I'm doing something to my kids that may be hurting them.
	I mean, that's a very uncomfortable thing to confront.
	And it's very brave for people who are able to do that and to really think about it and kind of step back and think, is this something that I want to participate in in my life, you know?
	And am I okay with it being done to me in some cases?
	So I could see how it's a lot easier for a lot of people just to avoid it, right, or ignore it, you know?
	Oh, sure, yeah, of course.
	And, of course, if you don't aggress against children, there's a lot of things that they won't accept.
	Right.
	I mean, I still don't know.
	I've been a stay-at-home dad for four years.
	I still have no idea how to explain countries to my daughter.
	I mean, I don't know.
	You know, it's like, okay, yeah, we have to go talk to these people.
	We have to cross to, like, when we go for a speech, we'll talk about this when we get back.
	But how do you explain countries?
	It's weird.
	Yeah, it's so abstract.
	Absolutely.
	All right, well, we're coming back with a lot more with Steph.
	And I'm really enjoying the show so far.
	If you want to get in touch with us, you got a question for Steph, or you just want to talk to Free Talk Live, 855-450-FREE is the phone number.
	And there is a lot more coming up.
	Stay tuned.
	This is Free Talk Live.
	Welcome back to the show.
	You're listening to the live Sunday night edition of Free Talk Live with me, Stephanie.
	And Brian.
	And as soon as I unmute him, we've got a special guest on Skype.
	It's Stephan Molyneux from Free Domain Radio.
	Boy, you should have just heard that speech I made while I was muted.
	It was about probably the most brilliant thing that I've ever said.
	And I'm just going to sob for a little while, but please continue.
	The world will never know.
	Yes.
	So Free Talk Live is a show where you can call in and bring up anything that's on your mind.
	The number to do that is 855-450-FREE. It's 855-450-FREE. I'd like to remind you that if you go to the subdomain of our website called listen.freetalklive.com, freetalklive.com of course is our website, but if you go to the listen subdomain, you'll find all the different ways that you can listen to Free Talk Live.
	So our radio affiliates are listed there, the satellite, the webcam, so you can actually watch FreeTalk Live.
	We've got two different camera angles for your viewing pleasure.
	And they're both on you.
	I think one of them's pretty much on me, the other one's on both of us.
	So if that sounds exciting to you, I mean, there's really not that much that goes on, but...
	Every once in a while, something interesting will happen in the studio or somebody will get particularly animated.
	So you're welcome to watch those.
	And to find those, once again, just go to listen.freetalklive.com.
	All right, Steph, we've got some people who called in and I think they want to talk to you.
	Should we take some calls?
	I'd love to.
	Okay, let's get right to it.
	So Alex is listening in Chicago.
	Hi, Alex.
	Hey, can you hear me?
	I can hear you.
	Steph, can you hear?
	Okay, go ahead.
	I just have a quick question for Steph, and I hope you guys are all having a great evening, but it was brought to my attention that in an early podcast of yours called Marriage, Gays, and Abortion, you seem to insinuate that homosexuality is a result of some form of child molestation or some form of sexual trauma.
	You said that in every gay person there's been some form of child molestation, and you've said that that, quote, may warp the sexual orientation.
	You went on to comment that lesbians are more domestically violent and that in homosexuals, the sexuality is wild and rampant.
	I don't want to have a debate on this.
	I just wanted to get your thoughts on whether you still agree with that, whether you've changed your position.
	Yeah, I mean, just to clarify the podcast...
	Somebody, I think the question came up on a show and my, I mean, I was in theater school, knew some gay people there.
	I had gay roommates throughout college and know a little bit about that.
	Yeah, I mean, promiscuity is quite high.
	Of course, it's not every gay is promiscuous, but promiscuity is quite high in the community.
	What about straight people?
	I mean, I think that you could make a case that heterosexuals are also kind of generally, you know, there's some promiscuity.
	I mean, just people are individuals, right?
	Absolutely, for sure.
	I mean, you can't judge any particular individual by group trends, and there certainly is promiscuity in the homosexual community, sorry, in the straight community as well.
	But I mean, roommates I had, they met, they had sex, and then they went on a date.
	It's just part of the culture that was there around.
	That's called college in the straight community.
	Now, as far as the child abuse thing goes, I certainly have expanded my thinking.
	What I was talking about in that show was my knowledge of gay people and conversations that I've had with them that they seem to have gone through a lot of trauma as kids.
	Now, I don't think I ever said, and that's why they're gay, but that was sort of the correlation that I had, that I haven't seen.
	You said that this may warp the sexual orientation.
	The insinuation seems strong.
	And meanwhile, you know, the overwhelming science, as far as I'm aware, is that this is a genetic thing.
	Yes, and the science seems to be very clear that there are particular periods during the pregnancy of a mom where she's subject to kind of undue stress or there could be some genetic factors, but I certainly do believe that homosexuality is genetic in origins.
	So, yeah, I mean, I was asked some opinions earlier, which I put forward as opinions, not as facts, but this is sort of the stuff that I've seen.
	But I certainly have done shows more recently, actually I think even a couple of years ago now, Where I go through quite a bit of the science about the genetic nature of homosexuality.
	That's certainly where I stand now.
	I don't think that you can take a straight person, subject them to childhood trauma, and then make them gay.
	I do think that gay people, of course, because there's quite a lot of prejudice against homosexuals in society, I think that they do suffer quite a bit as children, more so than straight people, which I think is a great tragedy and arises out of a lot of homophobia.
	But no, I don't believe that childhood trauma will produce homosexuality.
	So, just to be clear, you've kind of reversed your position, or at least your anecdotal position?
	Yeah, I mean, I put a little bit more nuanced in that in that I put forward some things that I had learned from exposure to the gay community, but once I began to really dig into the science, then yes, I would certainly say that it is not trauma.
	Certainly most of the people that I knew, if not all the people I knew who talked about this who were gay, did have this kind of trauma in their history, and I was at some point curious about whether that might be correlative, but the science seems much more overwhelming than my early anecdotal experiences for sure.
	Alex, thank you for calling in tonight.
	I appreciate your thoughts.
	Yes, great call.
	And Steph, thanks for clearing that up because, you know, I was actually curious about that myself.
	You know, I'm a great fan of your show and I saw, admittedly, I got sucked in by somewhat of a troll-y video that was made of some clips of you talking about your experiences with your roommates and such.
	And, you know, totally, I'll be the first one to admit I'm a bisexual woman, so I had a little bit of a personal reaction to that.
	Like, hey, you know, I don't think that my orientation comes from trauma, right?
	And that, you know, if trauma affected people's orientation, well, crap.
	I mean, everybody has childhood trauma, right?
	Wouldn't there be a lot more people walking around, you know, who are gay or whatever, right?
	Yeah, I mean, there is a challenge, of course, with the twin studies, right?
	I mean, that's the stuff that I'd read about beforehand.
	The challenge with the twin studies is that, of course, if it was genetic, you would expect more twins to be, you know, both gay or both straight.
	But, I mean, I think Gabor Matei has explained this quite a bit, that, of course, there's epigenetics to genes returned on and off based upon You know, pre-birth experiences, post-birth experiences, birth order, and trauma.
	And so I think that goes a long way.
	I'd heard about the twin studies before, which would seem to me to indicate not a genetic basis to it.
	But I think that that stuff has been very well explained through epigenetics and the additional research that's been done, even since I made that original show, which seems to answer, I think, the questions of nature versus nurture quite a bit.
	And yeah, so I'm very firmly on the epigenetic side, I think is probably a better way of putting it.
	Yeah, and thank you for that.
	And by the way, epigenetics, in case people aren't familiar with what that is, it's basically like a way that our bodies have of adjusting, of turning up and down the volume on certain genes.
	And it's based on environmental factors, right?
	Like, for instance, nutritional status as a fetus is developing, or stress early on in life.
	And I think that was what you were referencing, Steph, about when children are in very stressful environments.
	Certain genes can turn on in their brains, right?
	Or turn off in their brains.
	And that can affect things like their personality, even.
	And, of course, you've got a series on YouTube called The Bomb and the Brain that touches on that a little bit, too, right?
	Yes, and let me just put one little addendum, Mitch, which is to the people who heard my conversations about homosexuality earlier and for which it was upsetting to them.
	I really, really wanted to say that I'm very sorry for that.
	I mean, people who have...
	Faced discrimination, of course, because of, I would argue, involuntary sexual preferences, certainly don't need my statements to cause them upset, and I just really wanted to apologize to people who have heard that, and it was upsetting to them, which I can completely understand.
	It was opinion-based, it was not claimed as a fact, but nonetheless, I can certainly understand that it would be upsetting, and I just really wanted to say sorry to people for that, because that certainly was not my intention, and that's certainly not where I come from.
	In my conversations with straights and gays and, you know, person of every hue of the rainbow.
	So I'm very sorry for that.
	Wow, Steph, thank you so much.
	I really appreciate that, you know, personally.
	I think that's very, you know, look, as a person who's in radio and podcasting, I think we all say things that later on, you know, maybe we come across some new information and we'd like to update them or something like that.
	Oh yeah, even on my show on Sovereign Tech, especially that's a science and tech show, I have to consistently say, I'm just giving you my opinion.
	Or, you know, and I practically open every show with, I will separate science from fact.
	Or, I mean, I will separate opinion from fact.
	And I will dig up that show and I will put an intro in to remind people of how my thinking has evolved since then.
	So thanks for the feedback.
	Right.
	We'd be happy to share it.
	And wow, I'm so impressed, Steph.
	This is great.
	And if there are more calls on the way, lots of people want to talk to you, Stephon.
	Stephon Molyneux from Free Domain Radio is with us and you're listening to Free Talk Live.
	And the number to call is 855-450-FREE. 855-450-FREE.
	There's more coming up here on the live Sunday night edition of Free Talk Live.
	This is Free Talk Live.
	Welcome back to the live Sunday night edition of Free Talk Live with me, Stephanie.
	And Brian.
	And we're still not going to call it Free Domain Talk Live.
	I mean, that's okay.
	We can think of some clever puns.
	I don't know.
	Let's ask Stefan.
	What do you think we should call it?
	The unholy trio of mind-bending liberation schism head.
	I love it.
	Oh, yeah.
	At the end.
	Fit that on the bumper sticker.
	Did he say stop making fun of his mother?
	If you do it in Swahili, it's okay, right?
	Oh, right, right.
	So, by the way, yeah, this is the Free Talk Live Sunday night edition.
	And our website is freetalklive.com, where you can go to submit your favorite news stories.
	And, you know, we're kind of, I guess we're kind of getting outside the mold a little bit of Free Talk Live tonight.
	We're talking about some big ideas.
	And we've got some news stories, too, which we may get to a little bit later on.
	Typically, Free Talk Live is along the lines of a current events and open phones call-in line show.
	And so if you have something that you want to share, if you have an interesting news story that's related to freedom that you think might be of interest to our listeners, then you can go right over to our website, which is freetalklive.com, and there's a place where you can submit your own stories.
	And once you submit a story, people will vote it up or vote it down.
	And it's kind of like a social bookmarking site so that the most popular stories will make it to the top of the page.
	And that queue is always sort of changing.
	We often check it for show prep, right, Brian?
	So there's a lot of different ways to share your favorite stories right there.
	And the number to call tonight, if you want to get in touch with us, or maybe you have a question for Stefan, we've got him from Freedom Aid Radio with us.
	You can call us at 855-453, 855-453, that's our phone number.
	And let's see.
	All right, well, I guess we can go straight into the calls.
	We've got a couple people waiting on the line very patiently.
	Let's talk to Jack in Dallas, Texas.
	Jack?
	Hello.
	Hi, welcome to Free Talk Live.
	What's on your mind?
	Well, I had a question for all three of you, and it relates to the peaceful parenting in the libertarian community.
	A couple years ago, before I heard Stefan talk, I had never even heard the concept of applying the NAP to children.
	It just wasn't anywhere in any conversation I'd ever been around.
	And even as early as a year ago, it wasn't something that people were talking about.
	But recently I've noticed that this is coming up in more places.
	I mean, it comes up in shows like this, and it comes up in—when I go to local libertarian-oriented meetup groups, I hear people talking about these ideas more.
	And my question is, is this idea really spreading, or am I just more sensitive to it because it's something that I'm looking out for?
	I would say, if I might go first, I would definitely say it's spreading.
	I hear it coming up a lot more as well.
	Yeah, and I hear it outside of Liberty Circles a lot.
	I mean, it's all over.
	Are you talking about with people you know that may be into breastfeeding or natural parenting?
	Yeah, kind of the more natural movement, but they're big on peaceful parenting, and there's a lot of them.
	Yep, I agree.
	Steph, what do you think?
	Oh, yeah.
	I mean, I think it's definitely an idea whose time has come.
	You know, we get this funny thing in our culture where we get lazy.
	You know, we think we're done.
	Well, you know, we're done.
	We have reached the complete pinnacle of all human capacity and virtue, and therefore we just have to lie back, watch some reality TV, dust some cheetos off our chest, and call us self-content.
	And the reality is that we're not done.
	I guess maybe they thought they were done when they got rid of slavery.
	Maybe they thought they were done when they promoted the much needed egalitarianism for women in the eyes of the law.
	But we're not done.
	We're not done.
	We are still hitting children.
	I mean, I hate to say even way too much.
	I mean, where is a good amount of child hitting?
	Well, the answer is zero.
	But we do think that we're done.
	And I think it's really important that we remember that all cultures before thought that they were done.
	And those cultures that stayed thinking that they were done tended to They tended to fade away or they'd go into this Chinese 6,000-year stagnation because they just had it all down, nothing to improve.
	And I think we need to have the humility to say that we're not done.
	And, you know, obviously we know that our society couldn't function if we treated children with the respect that they deserve.
	And that's good because I think in the liberty movement, you know, we've tried politics for, you could argue, at least 40 years since the foundation of the Libertarian Party in the US in the early 70s.
	We've tried politics.
	You could go back forward to the rise of anti-mechanalism and promotion of free trade and the 18th century and so on.
	We've tried politics.
	We've tried education.
	You know, we've tried getting people into PhD programs and into professorships and publishing books and all that.
	And, you know, all through this, the government has laughed at us and continued to grow.
	And so if we didn't have anything else to do, that would be really bad.
	I mean, that would be really bad, because it's like, the dragon's still coming, I got nothing in my quiver.
	Uh-oh.
	No good.
	What are you going to throw insults at him?
	I mean, so the fact is that we do still have something to do, which is we can bring all the philosophy.
	We can recognize we can't impose it on the vertical monster structure of the state, but we can impose it in our own values, in our own lives, in our own families, in our own relationships, particularly with our kids.
	And that's, boy, it's great that we've got one big-ass arrow left in our quiver, because if we were out, you know, dragons still getting bigger, still getting stronger.
	So I think that we can do that.
	I mean, if we have a community of people who don't aggress against their children, who keep them out of toxic school environments and so on, My goodness, I mean, what an incredibly enviable community we would be.
	I mean, sadly, we live in a world where envy runs a lot of human decisions, and boy, if we had the kind of kids that everyone went like, wow, I'd really like to have a relationship like that with my kids.
	I'd really like my kids to be that responsible, that mature, that intelligent, that witty, that engaged, that curious, that driven, or that themselves, and so little conflicts.
	I have maybe one conflict a month with my daughter that is of any significance at all, which we've reasoned out.
	And, of course, the average conflict is much higher than that.
	I think most people would love to have even a romantic relationship that was like that, right?
	Where they had one conflict a month and it was resolved totally peacefully, you know?
	I mean, so maybe we're getting there.
	It might be slow, but it's being talked about right now, which I think is really important.
	So, Jack, did you have anything else on your mind tonight?
	No, that's really encouraging.
	You know, I see this See that the conversation looks like it's spreading, and I'm almost like afraid to hope that it really is.
	But if other people are seeing it, that makes it a little bit easier.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Yeah, it's happening.
	Thank you so much for your thoughts tonight.
	I appreciate that.
	And Dave's on the line in California listening on Shoutcast.
	Let's talk to Dave.
	Hi, Dave.
	Hello.
	Hey, Stephanie and Stefan and Brian.
	How are you guys doing?
	Wonderful.
	Hi, Dave.
	Sorry, Dave, I think if you're listening on Shoutcast, you do actually have to shout your question.
	Well, you're coming through loud and clear.
	But, no, I just want to take a step back about the issue about the sexual...
	The guy who called in about sexual trauma causing homosexuality.
	You know, I'm a straight guy.
	I've been married once, but I have had so many, mostly male, gay friends.
	I'm an artist, and I'm a special effects artist, but because of that, I've worked with a lot of artistic types, and I can tell you a lot of artistic types, artistic minds, are oftentimes homosexual.
	Or bisexual or just a little bit, you know, deviant in that respect.
	I take that as a compliment.
	Yeah, well, I mean, seriously, and you should, because we're all deviants in some way or another.
	Right on.
	Honestly, you know, I've known lots and lots of gay men, several of whom have been my absolute best friends.
	And what I've noticed from the dozens that I've known personally, really up close, And about their personal lives, is that only one or two out of the dozens I've known have ever had a father who they bonded with.
	And many did not have fathers, and many had fathers that they just despised.
	For one reason or another that, you know, they just horribly despise their fathers.
	So it is more of a bonding issue with a male figure.
	Well, hold on a minute, Dave.
	I have a question for you.
	I mean, I think when we're talking about making, you know, generalizations about gay people, we have to look and see if they apply to straight people as well or maybe other groups.
	Sure.
	So how many straight people have fathers that they didn't bond with or don't have a father in their life at all, right?
	Right, right, right.
	And this isn't like a cut-and-dry situation.
	This is more of a predisposition.
	It's like, you know, human beings are, you know, we can go any way we want.
	We're not so programmed like the other life forms are.
	We don't just instinctually live.
	We live with instinct as well as decisions.
	And I've noticed that it's more of a guiding principle than it is sort of a mechanism that causes a certain state.
	And I think when we look at it that way, when we look at it more as sort of the balls of odds and averages, it tends to make sense.
	But when we look at it in sort of a cut-and-dry this way or that way, and that's the way it is, sort of way, it doesn't work.
	Well, let me give you a counter argument to that.
	Let's say that we had some magic way of saying that gay...
	Oh, we're getting some music.
	We'll get this on the other side of the bracket.
	I think there's a good argument for nature versus nurture here.
	Dave, thank you for calling in tonight.
	I appreciate your thoughts.
	And we'll talk more about this coming up in a moment.
	Nature vs.
	Nurture.
	Sexual orientation.
	Who do you like?
	Which parts do you like?
	Well, you can call and tell us.
	855-450-FREE. Here on Free Talk Live, the live Sunday edition.
	More coming up with Stefan Molnou.
	This is Free Talk Live.
	Welcome back.
	You're listening to the live Sunday night edition of the show.
	With me, Stephanie.
	And Brian Sovrin.
	And we've got a guest on the line with us on Skype.
	It's Stefan Molyneux from Freedomain Radio.
	Hi, Steph.
	Hello, hello.
	I'm really enjoying the commercial format.
	Oh, I miss podcasting.
	Brain breaking up in the upper atmosphere.
	You know, honestly, I'm kind of jealous of you because I know that you do your own Your own show that's kind of similar to the format of this one, I guess, right?
	Like, people can call in to the Freedom Aid Radio Sunday show.
	There's, like, a chat element so people can interact and meet one another.
	Except yours is completely commercial-free.
	So, like, if you want to get a drink, if you want to pee, too bad, you're going to have to wait and hold it for two hours.
	Right.
	I don't even want to tell you what I'm wearing, but it's a lot of tubing involved.
	That's dedication.
	I don't think we want to necessarily share that.
	Can I just take a quick stab at this guy's, let's say, gays have bad dads theory?
	Because I think I'm down with the epigenetics argument, so let me see if I can make a case.
	Just one moment, Steph.
	I just want to let people know that in case you're just tuning in, we're kicking off the second hour of tonight's show and Free Talk Live is live this Sunday evening.
	You can call about anything that you want if you have a question for Steph or if you want to talk to us or bring up something completely new.
	It's 855-450-FREE. That's 855-450-FREE. Okay, go ahead, Steph.
	Right, so the caller was saying that maybe homosexuals have bad dads.
	Now, even if we could find that correlation, that would not argue for Because if the mom is pregnant and the man she's chosen to have her children with is a bad guy, then she's going to be pretty stressed during that pregnancy.
	And so if stress is if genetic predisposition plus stress, right?
	Because the epigenetics is genetic predisposition plus environmental factors.
	So if there's a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality and the bad dad slash bad husband slash bad father is around, then the mom's going to be stressed and that's going to be more likely to trigger whatever the genetic change may occur to produce the homosexuality.
	So even if you could find that correlation, it wouldn't say that being around a bad dad causes whatever it is.
	It wouldn't be psychological then.
	It would still be a strong argument for the epigenetic basis of it.
	I mean, you're the expert, Stephanie, so you know better than I would take.
	Well, I think that's a great point.
	I'm glad you brought that up.
	And also, the quote, bad dad would have contributed, you know, the child has half of his genetics if he's the biological father.
	So there's genetics in there as well as environment.
	So we can't really separate out the two, right?
	And then...
	What about lesbians?
	Or what about, you know, there's this, I guess in like pop psychology, there are lots of people who will see a woman who, a straight woman who is dating a lot of men, and then they'll claim that, oh, she has daddy issues, right?
	Like, I mean, it doesn't seem to have much of a scientific basis to me.
	I don't know, at least I'm not familiar with one.
	Right.
	And I don't feel like that masculinity is somehow a need.
	You know, love is a need.
	Security is a need.
	None of that is gender specific.
	You know what I mean?
	Right.
	Oh, so you're saying maybe a child would want to connect with a parent, but do they specifically need a male?
	Right, it's claiming they need a dad, they need a male, they need masculinity or something, and I just don't see that as an actual need.
	Well, I mean, I don't know what...
	The word masculinity is one of these disco balls that you can sort of shine in any direction you want.
	But there does seem to be, for whatever reason, there's a huge amount of scientific evidence that being raised by two parents, I don't know about heterosexual parents versus straight parents, I don't know what the data is, but being raised by two parents does seem to be quite necessary for the well-being of children.
	As opposed to one parent.
	Yeah, as opposed to one parent and so on.
	That seems to be fairly strong.
	Now, you could, of course, argue that, and they do try to tease this out in the data, they say, well, look, people who get married and stay married are just sort of emotionally healthier than people who have a bunch of divorces or serial relationships or whatever, and that's the difference.
	But even when you try to take that into account as much as possible, there does seem to be kind of you need two parents to have your optimum start in life.
	So whatever that means about masculinity, femininity, I don't know.
	I don't even know what those terms mean particularly much.
	But it does seem to be like it's a dual shotgun kind of thing.
	Yeah, sure, that makes sense.
	You know, and sometimes I wonder when I hear that data, I know there are probably very limited studies on this, but what about children who are raised in sort of like hippie communes, like they have more than one parent, you know, like they have the friends of their parents who are also helping to contribute to them and stuff like that?
	I think that's, I mean, historically, children have statistically had four adults around them for every child.
	Because we're tribal, right?
	And there's lots of people who are outside the range of fertility or who don't have kids or whatever, or who are gay.
	So there'd be more adults around per kid in the past.
	Philip Zimbardo writes about this.
	He's the past president of the American Psychological Association.
	He's got a very good book out called The Demise of Guys, which is well worth reading about the sort of failure to launch.
	He points out this is 4 to 1 ratio.
	But now we have the situation where children are in a classroom where there's 25, 30 or more kids for each adult.
	It's quite the inverse of what used to be there.
	So I think in a commune it would actually be a pretty fine environment for a kid.
	That's a lot more close to where we evolved from as a species.
	Yeah, it's just more love.
	Yeah, that's very interesting to me.
	I mean, kids need a lot of things, right?
	We can't deny that.
	And so the more people are there who are able to provide for their needs, as long as they're treating the children kindly, of course, I think probably the better, right?
	Sure.
	All right, let's take some more calls, Steph.
	Are you up for that?
	Please do.
	Okay, let's talk to JD, listening in Vegas.
	He's been waiting very patiently.
	Hi, JD. Hi, guys.
	Boy, you guys have got my mind twisted completely between the children and the homosexuals.
	I don't know which way to go.
	I mean, I've heard so much...
	Okay, well, let's start with one.
	...so many theories and so many things about both.
	I think that the discipline thing was sort of thrown away, wasn't it, in the 60s by Dr.
	Spock?
	I'm a 69-year-old father who didn't have children until he was 40 and 42, so I was raising my kids in a generation of parents that were almost a generation behind me, and I saw such unbelievable differences in the way I raised my children and the way they raised theirs with no discipline.
	I saw mothers on the playground do Horrible things as far as ignoring when their children did something.
	Just turn around and walk away and ignore it.
	I've seen kids running their parents because they had no discipline.
	And I think, you know, partially, if we want to get into psychobabble, I guess my thing would be that's why we don't have any respect or discipline in the schools or teachers or police, because these kids never had it in the last 25 or 30 years.
	Jay, do you want to let Stefan respond?
	Yeah, look, I mean, as far as not engaging with your children, I mean, and letting them, quote, run wild, the data, again, I speak as a layperson, but the data that I've read is that the overly harsh or punitive or sort of Old Testament disciplinarian is associated with negative outcomes for children, but complete laissez-faire You know, no interactions let consequences rule.
	It's also associated with negative outcomes for children.
	I think that it's not permissiveness versus discipline.
	To me, it's intimacy and connection versus distraction or a lack of connection.
	I think if you're hitting your children, you can't be connected with them.
	You can't have empathy for someone you're physically causing pain to.
	I mean, that just short-circuits the whole thing.
	On the other hand, if you are just doing your own thing and your children are just kind of raising themselves, well, that's not right either.
	I mean, you want to be engaged with your kids.
	You want to be present with them.
	You want to coach them, mentor them, and also let them teach you because if you're raising your children better than you were raised, they will have things to teach you.
	I know that's the case for me as a father because she's being raised in a much more peaceful environment than I grew up in, so I'm learning a lot about what that does and how I could learn from who she is as a human being.
	So yeah, the overly permissiveness stuff.
	I mean, remember, of course, in the 60s and 70s was the divorce revolution, the feminist revolution, the go-to-work revolution.
	And so what happened, of course, was you had, in a lot of families, breakups, which are bad for kids.
	However, they may be necessary for the adults, certainly bad for kids.
	You had two-parent working households, which, I mean, incredibly cuts down the amount of time that you're able to spend with your kids, which results in less of a desire to discipline.
	So I think there's a lot more than just did they hit or not, I think, going on for kids over the past 40 years.
	Well, what I found with my children was in the first three or four years that the discipline was a tap on the butt.
	It didn't hurt them.
	It hurt their feelings because they realized...
	Hello?
	J.D., we're short on time, but thank you for the call.
	Appreciate your thoughts tonight.
	And we're going to talk more about this, certainly, when we return with Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain Radio.
	If he's still there, I heard a big noise.
	No, no, sorry, I knocked my coffee over how professional of me.
	Gotcha.
	All right, this is Free Talk Live, the Sunday edition.
	More coming up.
	Stay tuned.
	This is Free Talk Live.
	You're listening to the Live Sunday Night Edition with me, Stephanie.
	And Brian.
	And we've got Stefan Molyneux from Freedom Aid Radio on the line with us.
	Hi, Stefan.
	Hello, hello.
	Thanks for being here tonight.
	The show is just going really quickly for me.
	It is.
	Yeah.
	So I guess time flies when you're having fun.
	Well, maybe you dozed off.
	You never know.
	I do have some windy-ass monologues.
	Normally, if I'm in studio, the oxygen masks will drop from the ceiling like a downed fighter plane, and people hit the eject button regularly.
	So it may be enjoyable, or it may just be out of oxygen.
	You know, funny enough, I had a dream about this show last night.
	I know you do some dream talk on your Sunday show, Stefan, and I was having a nightmare.
	I guess I was anxious because I was dreaming that just like everything was going wrong, like we had fires in the studio and technical problems and we couldn't connect and I couldn't talk and it was just, maybe it was a little bit of anxiety coming out, but I'm really enjoying it so far and I'm glad we haven't had any fires or technical problems so far tonight.
	Well, otherwise it would be more of a premonition, and that would be a whole different kind of show.
	Right, that's right.
	So Free Talk Live is a show where you can call and take control of the airwaves.
	Call us at 855-450-FREE. That's 855-450-FREE. FreeTalkLive.com is our website, and if you visit the subdomain news.freetalklive.com, Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Ian and Mark, the other hosts of Free Talk Live that are on the rest of the six days every week, were there too.
	And they had been taking a lot of pictures.
	People were tweeting about guests that they interviewed there.
	And we're also tweeting about this show coming up tonight, which I'm really proud to hear.
	It's really great to know that people are interested in listening.
	So news.freetalklive.com to get connected with Free Talk Live.
	And let's go.
	Oh, Steph, I'm sorry.
	You know, we left off at the end of the last segment.
	This is the thing about a show with commercial breaks.
	Sometimes you got to make sure you stay really on track.
	The last caller, JD, was talking about kids and he wasn't too favorable with the sort of revolution, I guess, that occurred in the 1960s with Dr.
	Spock saying, you know, no, maybe spanking or hitting children is not going to be the best for their development.
	And So he was kind of opposed to that.
	Yeah, the gentleman was saying that instead he would just tap them.
	He wouldn't hit them, he would tap them.
	What do you think about that stuff?
	Well, then you're doing it wrong.
	Sorry, I hate to point it out, but it's like showing up to an S&M dungeon with a bundt cake.
	You're doing it wrong.
	Not based on extensive, though, mild personal experience.
	If you're going to spank, then it's corporal punishment.
	It means you have to frighten the child, you have to inflict pain.
	Otherwise, it's It's not spanking.
	But this is very common, and it is quite tragic, and I think it speaks to conscience, frankly.
	Which is, if you hit your children with the point of being aversive to them, then it has to inflict pain.
	It has to be frightening for them, otherwise it's not aversive.
	And so they say, well, you know, my discipline was aversive, but I only gave them a tap on the butt.
	It's like, well, then it wasn't aversive, and you actually were neither.
	Then you weren't doing the disciplinarian thing, and so you were doing something else.
	I don't know what it was, but I don't think it's generally true.
	I think that people look back and they say, well, that was not a great idea, and I think they minimize it in their own minds, what they were actually doing.
	Right, and if we were to think about what it might be like from the perspective of a young person, you know, personally, I think that it's not very often that I see people in society really empathizing and getting into the shoes of young children, because probably they weren't treated as though they could be trusted or that they were worth empathizing with when they were children, which is really tragic.
	I mean, a lot of us aren't treated that way when we're young.
	But if you think about it from the perspective of a kid, okay, there's this being that's my parent that I'm completely dependent on and I rely on them for everything.
	And they're about, you know, three to five times my size.
	Actually, some parents hit their children up until their teenage years, usually until they're big enough to fight back, right?
	But it's really scary, and it may seem like just a tap to a parent, but for a kid who literally is interacting with what they'd consider a giant, that's very, very scary.
	Yeah, you are trapped in a giant's castle.
	I mean, that's the reality, and it doesn't mean it has to be bad.
	I mean, I hope my daughter really enjoys being trapped in a giant's castle, but she can't leave.
	I mean, she's gonna, oh, I'm not happy with the plans this afternoon, Dad.
	I'm gonna, you know, hitchhike my way to someplace more entertaining.
	The involuntary nature of the parent-child relationship Unfortunately, it gives rise to treating children worse when, if you look at it philosophically, quite the opposite should occur.
	I mean, if my wife is assigned to me by the government, then if I want her to really love me, I have to overcome the involuntary nature of her relationship.
	I have to woo her even more if I want her to love me.
	And children are the only people in your life who aren't there by choice.
	And so because they're not there by choice, we should have the very highest standards for how we deal with children.
	The very highest standards.
	There should be nobody that we treat better than our children because they're not there by choice.
	And to overcome that involuntary thing, we have to be incredibly nicer to everyone.
	But I mean, you know, the average person will treat a waiter better than they treat their children in the long run.
	And that's quite the opposite of what I think a rational and even just basically empathetic analysis of the situation would require.
	All right, Steph, let's take some more calls.
	We're going to talk with Stephen, listening also in Vegas.
	He's been waiting very patiently.
	Hi, Stephen.
	Yeah, it's a lot of Stephanie, Bethan, and the other gentleman.
	I've forgotten his name.
	It's Brian, and I'm going to turn your volume up just a little bit, Stephen, so go ahead with your thoughts.
	Okay, I'll talk a little more directly into the phone.
	There you go.
	Just so I don't get cut off of that possibility.
	Stephan, I used to study a lot of libertarian thought, and I definitely liked your idea.
	I liked 790 having the show on.
	I've been listening to the GCN show, Infowars.
	That's our network that Free Talk Live is syndicated on, is the GCN network.
	Yeah.
	At GCNlive.com, you can listen to a number of shows.
	Some of them are really, really super I like the idea you talked about, don't steal, but we'll be able to tax you, and don't counterfeit money, but we'll be able to print it.
	And I was wondering, since you're up on libertarian thought, are the libertarians getting involved at all in the Icelandic approach to the debt crisis?
	Steph, are you familiar with the Icelandic approach?
	Or would you like Stephen to explain that a little bit more?
	I think I know a little bit about it, that they basically refused to pay back the bankers and prosecuted everyone with a dollar sign in their eyeballs that they could get their hands on.
	Really?
	And yeah, they have taken quite a different approach.
	I mean, in America, of course, you've had 3,000 Occupy Wall Street people arrested and zero bankers because it's the people out front of the bank who are the big problem.
	And so the Icelandic approach is, yeah, they just say, I'm not going to pay these people back and we're going to start arresting.
	I mean, it's satisfying in a kind of...
	Village chasing an ogre kind of way.
	But it is not, you know, it's still the government that is blaming the bankers.
	The bankers are the shadow cast by power.
	I mean, everybody looks at the shadow and say, well, that's really dark.
	We better go fight that shadow.
	But the reality is that the state power to control interest rates and money is what produces these financial corruptions.
	So for the government to go after the effects of its own actions is a little unproductive, I think.
	Are you familiar at all with the CAFR conference?
	Stephen, hold the line if you would.
	We're short on time.
	We're going to come back with more with Stefan.
	We'll hear about the CAFR, the Icelandic approach.
	anything that's on your mind it's free talk live You are listening to Free Talk Live.
	It's the live Sunday edition with me, Stephanie.
	And Brian.
	I'm going to pop this down just a little bit.
	I think we're being drowned out by the music.
	That's much better.
	And we've got Stefan Molyneux from freedomainradio.com on with us.
	Hi, Stefan.
	Hello, hello.
	Alright.
	And, you know, I just want to remind everybody out there, there's a technology that I'm really excited about.
	We've been talking about getting freedom in our lives here on the show tonight.
	A lot of different topics have come up, but that certainly is one of the overarching themes, right?
	I think that bitcoins are a really exciting way of transcending borders, of doing business, of becoming an entrepreneur without having to pay transaction fees.
	It really gets rid of a lot of these barriers to entry for people becoming online entrepreneurs.
	And so much more, too.
	I mean, they're great in person.
	They're great if you just want an alternative to Basically, currency systems that are completely in the hands of governments and they can kind of print as much as they want and create as much money as they want, as we were just talking about in the last segment.
	So, if any of that sounds interesting to you, I mean, we just got back from the New Hampshire Liberty Forum and there was a Bitcoin ATM there where you could put cash in and you get Bitcoins out to go onto your phone or to go to anywhere you wanted them to go.
	And so the technology is just blowing me away with these things.
	I mean, the government's not involved at all.
	And there's companies that have handled, in fact, there's one company in particular that handled 10,000 Bitcoin transactions last year.
	Not one case of fraud.
	No government involvement.
	Amazing.
	People were honest.
	Yeah, that's really exciting to me.
	So if you're excited by this technology, if you want to find out more about it, go to bitcoin.freetalklive.com.
	That's B-I-T-C-O-I-N.freetalklive.com.
	Bitcoin.
	Alright, let's go right back to the phones.
	Stephen, we were talking with you.
	You're listening in Vegas, by the way.
	And you wanted to ask one more question to Stefan.
	Let's hear it again.
	Okay, I'd like to know, I'm still a little vague on where he's available at, Freedom, what was it?
	Radio?
	Oh, Freedom and Radio.
	Freedom and Radio?
	Freedom and Radio.
	Okay.
	Well, I think he was pretty close on that.
	The way I understood it, the Icelandic public servants actually were Freedom They said, look, we aren't going to raise taxes with internal public assets.
	We understand how you created all this massive debt that you want us to sign on to, called derivatives in this country.
	We aren't going the way of Greece or Spain.
	We aren't going to destroy our whole economic system so that we can be effectively merged into the new world order.
	We're going to, in fact, if you're still here, when we get all this figured out, we'll be prosecuting you.
	And they started doing it.
	And they've discovered that their economy is doing real well.
	They aren't having any problems, contrary to Greece and Spain.
	Interesting.
	Stephen, thank you for calling in tonight.
	I appreciate your thoughts.
	And Stefan, did you have any response to that?
	Yeah, I mean, just very briefly.
	All of the debt is all made up.
	There are no people involved.
	I mean, it's all just numbers and paper.
	It's, you know, magic and strangling evil snakes of the imagination.
	So I think that there is going to have to be a reset of the economic system.
	The debts that have accumulated, even though they're imaginary, are completely unsustainable.
	And, of course, all the people who end up with all of these crazy derivatives, financial instruments going into the trillions of dollars, I mean, they can only do that because they themselves are not personally liable for the losses.
	We've got this magic entity called the corporation.
	You can pull all the money out that you want, and then if the corporation does something, quote, wrong, well, the corporation gets fined.
	I mean, it's like having a magic hand puppet that goes to jail if you knock over a bank.
	I mean, it's just going to make you want to knock over more banks.
	Hey, I got a magic hand puppet.
	He'll go on trial.
	I'm going off to the Bahamas.
	It's a crazy system, and nobody would ever develop this in the free market.
	And of course, you know, democracy works by taking from people who aren't born yet and don't have a say, right?
	It's basically leveraging the children that aren't even born, right?
	Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty evil, you know, itty-bitty coin.
	I mean, that's a pretty evil transaction to have.
	Yeah.
	All right, let's take another call.
	Let's talk with Paul, listening and keen.
	Hi, Paul.
	Welcome to Free Talk Live.
	Hi, Stephanie.
	Yeah, it's a real surprise.
	I had no idea you would have Stephan as a guest.
	Hello, Steph.
	Hello, hello.
	Oh, I think, Paul, I think I know who you are.
	Hi, welcome to the show.
	Yes, I was at the New Hampshire Liberty Forum this weekend.
	What were your experiences at the Liberty Forum?
	Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?
	Well, lots of people.
	You know, you didn't have to explain yourself to.
	You could just get on with the business of just exploring advanced ideas of how to spread the message of liberty and how to apply methodologies of good business practice and honest dealings.
	And it was really great.
	Glad to hear you had a good time there.
	I did, too.
	Yeah, and so I came out here to Keene to go to see the Social Sundays, and they're all gone.
	Oh, sorry to hear that.
	So you're talking about Keene, New Hampshire, where there are a bunch of people who are interested in something called the Free State Project, which is a movement of people to physically move to New Hampshire and then, you know, whatever they want, become part of a community of freedom-loving people, get active in whatever way they choose to try to get more freedom in their lives.
	And so there are lots of people who are interested in that in Keene.
	So is that why you chose to visit Keene, Paul?
	Yeah, well, I thought there'd be people out here to talk to, but apparently they all went home early or went home on time.
	I'm sorry to hear that.
	Is there anything else on your mind?
	Well, lots of things on my mind.
	Pick one.
	No, I'm really glad that Steph is on your show.
	That's really great.
	He's such an inspiration in so many ways.
	In fact, I heard people John Bush, in particular, talking the same inspiration about how we need to treat our children with nonviolence and respect.
	This will create the world that we want.
	So do you think the ideas of volunteerism and relationships and the way that we treat children, do you think those ideas are spreading?
	Do you see that on the rise, on the trend, on the liberty movement?
	I do see it, and I also do see it in other examples of the general media.
	I just saw an article just a couple of months ago on one of these Yahoo article things talking about, hey, gee, wouldn't it be nice to be nice to our kids for a change, you know?
	Interesting.
	Imagine that it took until 2013 to publish that.
	In Yahoo News.
	Yeah.
	Paul, thank you for calling in tonight.
	I appreciate your thoughts.
	I'm sorry you got sort of left out in the cold on Social Sundays.
	That's no fun.
	But, Steph, you know, I wanted to...
	I guess this ties in pretty well with something that I was thinking about that I kind of wanted to ask you about.
	And that's about basically like solutions, you know.
	We just mentioned the Liberty Forum and the Free State Project.
	And I'm sure you're familiar with what the Free State Project is.
	Is that correct?
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, yes, very much.
	And, you know, I know that from what I gather from listening to your show, you know, I think your approach is basically focus on our relationships, focus on our families, no matter where you are.
	And it can be I recognize it can be really difficult, for instance, if you wanted to move from one so-called tax farm to another.
	Right.
	If you wanted to move, for instance, from Canada to the U.S., that would be really difficult and arduous, probably involve a lot of violations of your individual liberties.
	And, you know, I think you're kind of about just try to be happy where you are.
	And would you say that's right?
	Or do you find value in something like the Free State Project?
	Tell me your thoughts about what to do.
	Yeah, I mean, I think that community is so important.
	And the one thing that I've always liked about the Free State Project, I mean, I don't think they're going to achieve political freedom, but you are at least around people where you don't have to pretend to be someone other than who you are.
	You don't have to start talking about the roads again, you know, who will build the roads.
	Same people who are building them now that the government hires to build them.
	But anyway, so I think it's great to go out and, you know, go visit.
	And if you like the community there, just being around people who get it is really, really important.
	And I mean, I have an opportunity through my show to meet lots of people who are passing through, some of whom are actually pretty close.
	So we've got some friendships out of the show.
	The community is really essential.
	You know, it's not talked about much in some of the objectivist literature and so on, but I really do think we need each other to stay strong and stay focused, so I'd recommend it for that, for sure.
	Yeah, I agree.
	What's life without friends, you know?
	Right on.
	And relationships.
	I think it's so important.
	All right, we're going to talk more about this as well as your questions for Stefan or anything else that's on your mind.
	The number to call is 855-450-FREE.
	That's 855-450-FREE.
	More coming up on Free Talk Live.
	Welcome back to Free Talk Live.
	You're listening to the live Sunday night edition of Free Talk Live with me, Stephanie.
	And Brian.
	And Stefan Molyneux from freedomainradio.com.
	One more time, that's freedomainradio.com.
	One of the callers had a question about how you get there.
	So, Steph, is there a shorter URL or anything like that?
	Is there like a real shortcut that anyone can take to get to your website?
	No, I invest a lot in carpal tunnel syndrome remedies, so I tried to have the longest possible website.
	I tried to actually name it a combination of an Aztec god and a Welsh village, but couldn't get that.
	You know, the obscure religions take those very quickly.
	So, no, freedomainradio.com.
	Yeah, that sounds great.
	And of course, I guess we can put that out on Free Talk Live's social media channels in case anybody would like to check it out.
	If you're just joining us, well, welcome to the Live Sunday Show.
	You can call us at 855-450-FREE. Reach us on the phone if you have questions for Stefan or if you want to talk to us about anything that's on your mind, you're welcome to do so.
	You know, I've brought in some news articles, but I think we're going to talk about, you know, just big-picture ideas, because that's what I like doing better about you, gentlemen.
	I'm sad, too, that if you call the 855 number at 855...
	Time will reverse.
	So I'm going to end up with a mohawk.
	This is why I'm on the show for tonight, to get younger.
	There will be video later.
	I can't be an anarchist without a mohawk.
	I don't know.
	I don't think you have the balaclava in your profile picture that I'm looking at right now.
	By the way, if you want to see the cam, the studio cam, you can watch us doing the show live.
	I guess you won't see Stefan because his video feed is separate.
	He's joining us by Skype, joining us from the virtual, from the ether, I guess you can say.
	But you can watch me and Brian do the show at cam.freetalklive.com.
	You can also chat there with other listeners.
	That's cam.freetalklive.com.
	And one more time, the number to call is 855-450-FREE. So, okay, we were talking about what I consider to be a pretty big question in terms of how do we get more freedom in our lives right here, right now?
	What can we do if we're people who like freedom?
	That's a question I think about all the time.
	And, you know, constantly just reevaluating, you know, how can I do this better, right?
	Yeah.
	How can I get more free?
	I want to live near my friends.
	I think that does a lot for the prospect of feeling free in my own life.
	That's one reason that I live in New Hampshire because there are a lot of people here who are interested in freedom.
	Definitely more than where I used to live in Massachusetts about seven years ago.
	It was pretty simple to move here.
	There wasn't a huge cost to me to move.
	I think that's pretty much why I'm here.
	But, you know, I recognize that you could do that in other places, right?
	You could set up an intentional community anywhere.
	You could choose your neighbors just like you choose your friends, your lovers, your whoever, right?
	The people that you want in your life.
	And so, I mean, that doesn't necessarily have to be in New Hampshire.
	I know people who listen to Free Talk Live a lot are going to hear a lot about the Free State Project, and we kind of pump up New Hampshire and particularly Keene.
	But, you know, I do recognize that people could probably do it anywhere.
	And if they wanted to live with their friends, if that was really important to them, they could be quite happy doing that.
	But, you know, I guess I have a question I wanted to talk about with you, Steph, and that was like, do you think that as far as getting to a free world, not just ourselves and our own lives, do you think peaceful parenting is like the solution?
	Are there other things that people could do as far as activism, spreading ideas?
	What do you think about that question?
	I mean, I hate to sound like a monomaniac, but I do think it's, you know, maybe there's other stuff to do, but I don't consider it particularly important.
	If we can spread the ideas of peaceful parenting, we know for sure, I mean, very clearly, very scientifically, that we will raise people Far better able to reason.
	And since we have rational arguments for what we do, we need, you know, right now we're screaming English in a world of Mandarin people.
	You know, Mandarin-speaking people.
	So it's no wonder we look kind of crazy to them, right?
	Whether they're Piers Morgan or whatever.
	And so we need people to speak the language of reason.
	And unfortunately, it's been quite well proven that most people They have an emotionally volatile reaction to an idea.
	And afterwards, you can see the neofrontal cortex kicking in after the amygdala fight-or-flight mechanism kicks in.
	They have an ex post facto, which means they put reason in to explain away their emotions, which is why when you say taxation is theft, people go, no, it's not!
	What about the poor?
	Rhodes!
	Defense!
	Ah!
	You're an enemy!
	They have an emotional reaction.
	Yeah, and then they come up with reasons afterwards to justify their emotional reaction, and that comes directly out of difficulties that they had as children, whether it was through the church, through the family, through the school, any combination of these things, the culture as a whole, which is quite mental in a way.
	So we, you know, we have to, we have these seeds, we have these seeds in our hand, and we've got to find some good earth to put them in.
	And tragically, the vast majority of people are not able to They're not able to reason.
	They're too mentally messed up, they're too broken, they're too volatile, and they don't even know it.
	This is one of the things that Gabor Maté talks about in a great book called In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts.
	Why is it that people don't fix themselves if they're really broken?
	Because the first thing to break is the knowledge that you're broken.
	They think they're fine and they think that we're mad.
	And so I think that we really do have to recognize that we cannot shape the, you know, the pottery of the future with the clay of today.
	We do have to raise a generation of children who are able to listen to reason, which means we have to teach them reason, which means we have to reason with them and negotiate with them and raise them peacefully.
	Rather than raise them aggressively and toss them in terrible schools and scare them with stories of hell and so on.
	We just need to allow them to grow in a natural way, in a peaceful way.
	And then, when we come to them with rational arguments, their brains won't misfire in all directions and, you know, reason won't attempt to jump out of their nose like a squid escaping a collapsing balloon.
	So, I think that's That's the best information that I've been able to come up with and the best research that I've been able to do and the best subject matter expertise I've been able to get on my show.
	It all seems to point in the same direction.
	We all want something shorter and quicker, but there's nothing that takes forever like a bad shortcut, right?
	Right.
	I'm definitely open to that possibility.
	The thing that comes up for me when I hear that, and this is just a thought, is that anyone can make a baby, right?
	But it takes real effort and consciousness to parent very peacefully, you know, and to really put a lot of effort into caring for that child and making sure, like you said, that they're able to reason and that they grow up in such a way that they're...
	I guess they want to do peace unto the world, right?
	Like he's done unto them.
	And so how does...
	Go ahead.
	Well, sorry to interrupt, but there's a huge difference between, like, so in the past we talked about, you know, the subjugation of women and so on.
	So in the past, you know, people thought that women don't treat them equally or whatever, right?
	And, you know, I mean, to take an extreme example, the Nazis never said, well, we, we, we, everything for the Jews.
	We love the Jews.
	The Jews are the most important thing.
	They said, we hate those guys.
	We're going to do terrible things to them if you give us power.
	But all we're asking, or I shouldn't say we, all I'm asking for people is to actually live the values that you pronounce.
	Because everybody says, I would do anything for my kid.
	I would lay down my life for my kid.
	Children are everything.
	Children are the future.
	Children are the most precious resource we have.
	I mean, what if these weren't just hallmark cards we flitted around like nothing but actually became the credo tattooed and burned into the very heart of our existence?
	What if we actually took the language that we proselytize incredibly seriously and said, okay, let me just take a pause here.
	What if the children are the most important thing?
	What if the children are the most precious resource we have?
	What if being a parent is the most awesome responsibility that we have?
	What does that change, right?
	Rather than just saying the words.
	So we don't have to get over the hump of, you know, some terrible racist thinks some minority is inferior.
	Well, then you've got to convince them they're not terrible people or whatever, right?
	But we already say everything that we need to do with our children.
	We already have those values.
	We just have to find a way to have people live them.
	And it's a big challenge, but at least we don't have to convince them of the values themselves.
	I agree, but I disagree.
	I love the first part of that sentence, perhaps you can just go and revisit that.
	No, no, no, tell me, tell me.
	If I'm wrong, set me in the right place.
	No, you're not wrong about the peaceful parenting thing.
	I mean, I think that is the way to go, you know, as far as raising children.
	And I think I disagree in the idea that, I mean, are they the most important when they exist?
	Yes.
	But when they don't exist within your life, the most important thing is you.
	And the idea that...
	You're talking about non-parents?
	Non-parents.
	Well, I mean, yeah, non-parents, yeah.
	But where the idea that I can't get liberty in my own lifetime...
	That, that troubles me.
	Yeah.
	Because that makes me, that doesn't appeal to my selfishness that, you know, because I want it, you know, I'm working towards it.
	And the idea that I have to put that off onto the next generation equally doesn't, that doesn't appeal to me.
	Like, I don't want anybody to do anything else for me.
	And to force, not to force, but to even lay the expectation on the next generation, okay, you've got to make the world better.
	That rubs me the wrong way.
	I agree with everything you said, but I disagree in that it being the only way.
	I think it's a good conversation to have.
	I mean, we can have more of it after.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Great points, great points.
	All right.
	Well, it's a cliffhanger here as we end up the second hour of the program, but hour three is coming up.
	Never fear.
	And hold those thoughts, Steph.
	I'm sure you have some stuff to say in response to that.
	And we'll be coming...
	I can't hold thoughts.
	I'll do my best.
	We'll be coming back with more here on Free Talk Live.
	The number to call if you want to weigh in is 855-450-FREE. This is Free Talk Live.
	Welcome back to the show.
	You're listening to the live Sunday night edition.
	Me, I'm Stephanie.
	And I'm Brian.
	And we've got Stefan Molyneux here from freedomainradio.com.
	Hi, Stefan.
	Hello, hello.
	Yeah, and thank you so much for being here with us.
	We're already in the third hour of the show.
	I can't believe it.
	It's gone by so fast.
	It is a good time.
	Free Talk Live is actually live seven nights a week, every single day.
	And there's three hours of live content for you to listen to every single day.
	Go to our website, freetalklive.com.
	There you'll find the ways to listen.
	Most recent archives of the show.
	And of course, Free Talk Live gives away our shows for free because we like to have people listen to our show, right?
	We want to spread the ideas.
	We want to promote our show.
	And so we just give it away.
	So we always appreciate it when you share the show with your friends as well.
	And the number to call tonight if you want to get in touch with us is 855-450-FREE.
	That's 855-450-FREE.
	You want to talk to Stefan or you want to bring up anything that's on your mind.
	We've already got quite a few phone calls on the line.
	But, you know, Steph, I know you wanted to have a chance to respond to a point that Brian brought up right at the end of the last hour.
	And I think, Brian, you were feeling some maybe some resistance come up to the idea of not being, you know, not having freedom in your lifetime or perhaps, you know, focusing on someone else like a child rather than yourself in your own life instead.
	Is that, do you think that's an accurate summary?
	Yeah, that's pretty accurate.
	I mean, I don't agree with, like, any kind of real political action.
	I mean, I'm an anarchist, but yeah, yeah, I think you summed it up.
	Yeah, so Steph, what did you have to say to that?
	I mean, the great thing about history is we don't have to figure everything out from scratch.
	We just have to look at huge social changes that have occurred in the past.
	And a moral revolution and a stateless society or a significant reduced state is a huge moral revolution.
	So, I mean, the two that I've looked at is slavery and egalitarianism for the rights of women, and they both took about 150 years, from the very first idea to the actual achievement, to the degree that it can be achieved in a state of society, the achievement of those goals.
	Took about 150 years.
	Okay, well, we have the Internet.
	We might be able to cut that in half.
	But, of course, you know, We have the internet and the bad guys have the internet.
	It's kind of like it's not a big plus for us.
	So I think we have to look at that.
	We're not planning to die.
	We're going to go transhuman.
	Yes.
	I am the internet.
	So, I mean, yeah, if we can keep it on.
	But I think it is important to recognize that these things do take a long time.
	We're also heading in the wrong direction.
	More and more people are becoming dependent on the state.
	Just before the show, Steph, we were talking about how, you know, half of people in Detroit don't pay property taxes.
	Half of Americans are significantly dependent or completely dependent on the government for their income.
	And you have, what, 45 million people on food stamps and Social Security.
	I mean, the amount of people who are tied into the government and sustaining it is increasing.
	And more and more people flow into the Borg.
	They're not going to fight the Borg.
	So we are heading in the wrong direction.
	And I think we're heading in the wrong direction because we have been focused on The only thing that we know that empirically and statistically is going to work.
	Politics isn't going to work.
	Education isn't going to work.
	I mean, you've got lots of free market economists who love being in academia, which is a state-granted privilege.
	So even if we made everyone a free market economist, give them a PhD in market economics from the Austrian school, a Chicago school, they'd still want to hang on to their state privilege.
	We know that from the academics.
	So education isn't going to work.
	I think you're proof, Stefan, that education is working.
	I think you yourself are proof of that.
	Sorry, education about...
	Free market economics or education about, you know, politics or whatever, right?
	The Ron Paul approach, right?
	Like from an academic sense.
	Yeah, like, I mean, if you're going to educate people about, you know, peaceful parenting and raising children and bringing the non-aggression principle to bear in your life.
	But you can get a huge amount of freedom right now.
	You can get a huge amount.
	I mean, look, imagine you live in some future society, 100 years from now, no government, freedom, and yet you have a bad marriage.
	Would you rather pay 30, 40% taxes and have a happy marriage or have a bad marriage and be tax-free?
	Yeah.
	I think I'd rather have a happy marriage.
	Oh, yeah.
	Pay them off.
	Give them their money and don't give them a bad thought, and then you get to have your happy life.
	You know, just all I think of is that I'm pretty incompetent of what I do, so I only make about half what I actually earn, because I'm just not really good at it.
	Or I put things down and I leave them behind.
	Money falls out of my pockets.
	That's the way I think of it.
	You know, it just goes off into the ether.
	I'm just bad at what I do, so I shouldn't be paid so much.
	But you can have a great free life.
	Just pay the people off who have the guns to your neck and go and have a happy life with people.
	Focus on having wonderful relationships and you'll still be happier than most of the people in a free society who don't have good relationships.
	Well, thank you.
	That's a really interesting perspective.
	I know we want to talk about this more, but we've got a lot of calls on the line, so let's go right to them.
	Trish has been waiting patiently.
	And by the way, if you're hanging on the line, please stick with us.
	I really appreciate you calling in.
	We'll try to get to all these calls.
	So, Trish is on the line listening in North Carolina.
	Hi, Trisha.
	Hi, good evening.
	Stephanie, it's lovely to hear your voice.
	You have a very peaceful, calming voice.
	Thank you so much.
	I look forward to it every Sunday.
	You were just stepping on with the echoing bad marriage, and that's exactly what I'm coming out of right now.
	And my question to all of you, because I am a very peaceful person and a peaceful parent, how does one deal with a situation where the other parent isn't in the home anymore and is not a peaceful parent by any means, an almost antagonized situation by way of knowing that that other parent is the children.
	Do you have any insight into that?
	Yeah.
	Tricia, thank you for asking that question.
	I just want to say I'm really sorry to hear about what you're going through right now.
	And would you mind taking the answer off the air?
	Oh, absolutely not.
	Thank you so much.
	Okay, thank you so much for making the call.
	And Steph, so I don't know, it was a little difficult to understand what she was saying.
	I don't know if you caught it, but basically she said that there's a situation that she's in right now where she has a co-parent that she's no longer together with, and they don't share the same ideas about parenting.
	She wants to go more peaceful parenting, and this other person does not and sort of antagonizes that, she thinks.
	I'm incredibly sorry to hear that.
	A very difficult situation.
	And, you know, I mean, we all have different times at which we wake up in our life.
	You know, we all fall out of the matrix at different times in our life.
	And some people do it earlier.
	I did it quite late.
	But fortunately, I wasn't married at the time.
	I had kids.
	So if this is when you wake up, and I get these emails a lot, if this is when you wake up, good for you for waking up and good for you for making that commitment to be peaceful with your children and I'm sorry.
	I mean, what a terrible situation to be in.
	Because, of course, you don't want to badmouth your ex, right?
	I just had Dr.
	Warren Farrell on my show this morning for two hours answering questions, and he said, you know, for a divorce to work well, the parents have to stay in proximity to each other, they have to remain committed to the children, and you have to not badmouth.
	The spouse.
	Hard though it is, if the spouse is acting badly and the children are confused and upset, of course you want to comfort them by saying, look, your dad is acting badly.
	But unfortunately, that just doesn't seem to work out very well.
	I would really recommend, you can look at Dr.
	Warren Farrell's books.
	He's got some great stuff on this.
	It's good that they have a parent who's committed to raising them peacefully or continuing a relationship as peaceful as possible.
	You never know what kind of influence you're going to have on people who disagree with you just by having integrity to your principles.
	You never know.
	You know, give me a lever big enough, as Archimedes said, and I can move the world.
	And so you don't know.
	If you just stay consistent, what is now may not be forever.
	You know, if you hold out your hand to shake someone's hand and they don't hold out their hand, you've got to change what you're doing because they're not doing what you're expecting them to do.
	So if you're changing your behavior, Give it some time.
	You never know how it's going to transfer to the other parent simply when they see the better relationship that you have, the happiness that you have.
	If there's any part of them that wants to still climb towards or crawl towards the light, you don't know what kind of effect you're going to have.
	So be patient with your principles.
	Resist the urge to back mouth.
	Try and keep everyone close together geographically and just be patient and see what happens through your behavior on your spouse.
	Those we can't reason with, we can sometimes lead by example.
	Yeah.
	Wow.
	Thanks, Steph.
	I really appreciate that answer as someone who, you know, coming from someone who I know has done a lot of research about divorce and families and the effects of different things on kids.
	So, cool.
	Thanks for that.
	And let's take our next call.
	We're going to talk with Chase in, is it Asheville?
	Hi, Chase.
	Hi, Stephanie.
	How are you doing?
	Hey, so this is Chase from the Blue Ridge Liberty Project in Asheville, North Carolina.
	Right?
	Is that right?
	Oh, that's correct.
	I have a question for Steph on today.
	Okay.
	I was just saying I hoped you were the right chase.
	It sounded like there was only one chase in Asheville that I could think of.
	Oh, I know you have a question for Steph, but would you mind holding that thought for just a moment?
	Of course.
	Okay, thank you so much, Chase.
	Stick with us.
	The number to call is 855-450-FREE if you want to talk to Stefan Molyneux tonight from Free Domain Radio, or if you want to talk with us here on the Sunday edition of Free Talk Live.
	There is more coming up, and for those who are on the line, stick with us too.
	We'll be back.
	More coming up.
	It's Free Talk Live.
	This is Free Talk Live.
	Welcome back to the show.
	You're listening to the live Sunday night edition of Free Talk Live with me, Stephanie.
	And Brian.
	And we've got Stefan Molyneux on Skype, all the way from Canada, and he's from freedomainradio.com.
	Hey, Steph.
	Hi, hi.
	We're calling him Steph and me, Stephanie.
	We're trying to minimize the confusion here, but like you were saying before, Steph, we should just have Stefan Kinsella on the show to talk about intellectual property, and then we can confuse the heck out of everybody.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, a truly unholy trinity of first syllable names.
	So we have to watch that.
	So, all right, you are listening to the live Sunday edition of Free Talk Live.
	The number to call is 855-450-FREE if you want to talk to us tonight.
	855-450-FREE. And, you know, we just got back from the Free State Project's Liberty Forum that was held in Nashua, New Hampshire.
	And, you know, I have to say I had a really good time at this event.
	It was a lot of A lot of community, you know, a lot of people who are interested in liberty, ideas of liberty coming together, meeting each other.
	I heard from a lot of lonely voluntarists and libertarians this past weekend who were just, you know, like, oh, I really crave this connection with other people who share my ideas, but it's difficult to find, you know, where they are.
	And the Crowne Plaza definitely appeals to my love for opulence.
	Yeah, it was a very nice place to have a convention.
	So I think, you know, I had a great time there.
	And, you know, we've talked a little bit about the Free State Project and about getting freedom in our lifetimes here on the show tonight.
	If you're interested in learning more about the Free State Project, you can check it out at freestateproject.org.
	And that's freestateproject.org.
	Okay, we're going to go right back into the phone calls.
	We were talking with Chase, listening in Asheville, North Carolina.
	Hi, Chase.
	Hi, Stephanie.
	How are you?
	Doing great.
	So what was your question for Steph?
	We had kind of a cliffhanger there in the last segment.
	That's fine.
	So anyways, again, like Stephanie said, I'm with the Blue Ridge Liberty Project.
	We are a peaceful parenting and voluntarist organization, similar to the FSP in that we want other people to be part of this organization.
	However, recently we received a lot of flack from our policies, which is that we don't want people as representatives We don't think that they can be representatives if they believe that God owns them, or that it's okay to initiate violence against others just because God says so, as was the case many times in the Old Testament.
	So I just want to get Stephon's opinion is, do you think someone can accurately claim to be a voluntarist if they believe that either A, God owns them, or B, that it's okay to initiate violence against others if God says it's okay?
	Yeah, we had this question come up on my last Sunday show, and I'll just give a very abbreviated answer.
	If we assume by voluntarist, we mean without rulers, right?
	The technical definition of anarchy is not without rules, which is what people think, but without rulers.
	It's one letter, but a very important letter difference.
	If you are to live without rulers, then You cannot believe in deities.
	I mean, because a deity is a ruler.
	A deity is somebody who does not reason with you.
	A deity is somebody who commands.
	A deity is somebody who threatens.
	A deity is somebody who rewards.
	And this is, you know, if a parent acted like The Old Testament deity, which is the root of the three major religions in the West, I guess in the East, then they would be in jail.
	I mean, by the end of the day.
	I mean, this is not an approach that we can take for virtue.
	We can't take commandments for virtue and call ourselves free.
	And so...
	That having been said, I like the way that religion approaches the importance of the question of ethics and so on.
	I mean, from that standpoint, it's great.
	And in many ways, I have more in common with religious people who are interested in ethics than I do with your average secular materialist who is kind of a post-Nietzschean relativist or whatever.
	But the reality is that we cannot have arbitrary authority.
	And we cannot have authority which threatens with eternal torture.
	We cannot have authority that bribes and call it virtuous.
	Then it's just bullying, it's brutal, it's aggressive, it's destructive.
	Now, that having been said, People who are raised in a particular faith, to me, until they encounter strong arguments to the contrary, remain in a state of nature, right?
	I mean, philosophy is a kind of technology and we don't blame someone in the 17th century for not having an iPhone.
	So, if you've not been exposed to arguments, it's the same thing chose with spankers and so on.
	You do exist in a state of nature.
	Moral arguments actually create moral choice.
	You know, they create the capacity for immorality simply by advancing the argument.
	And if you can't resist a moral argument, if you continue to do things which it bans, then you've crossed over into the dark side, which before you were kind of in the gray zone of not knowing.
	So I think be patient with people when you first bring these arguments to them.
	They may never have heard them and you never know What beast of reason you might awaken by bringing down the thunderbolts of truth and evidence and reason to their minds.
	But be patient.
	But yeah, the people who then back down without being able to refute the arguments and continue to espouse sky tyrannies, I think, would not be particularly welcome in a community that I wanted to have with children who were raised peacefully without threats and bribes.
	Oh, in fact, I totally agree.
	In fact, that is actually our intended to outreach to those who aren't already in the know, and to inform them of these principles, inform them of these moral arguments, that way they can't just make a claim to ignorance, like you said, in the state of nature.
	So, organization want to do outreach and spread the message, but at the same time, we don't want someone to be represented to those philosophy until they have a good, clear, consistent grasp of it.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, I mean, I think so.
	And being able to grasp something intellectually is miles and miles, if not light years away from being able to consistently enact it.
	Like I can watch somebody who's a great dancer and I can read books on the history and theory of dance.
	That's a whole lot different than stepping into my dance belt and going out there to twist the light.
	Fantastic.
	So I think you really want to make sure that people can actually do the moves, not just read the books or understand the theory.
	Can I add my thoughts on this personally?
	Oh, please, please do.
	So, yeah, I mean, I listen to Free Talk Live, and I've heard this controversy that's come up over the past week or so between, I would say it's mostly between you and Ian, Chase, and I think there's an undercurrent there of, you know, I guess...
	I don't want to mischaracterize his position, but Ian thinks it's important to include everybody, especially of a religious bent.
	And you said that you don't want people representing your organization who you think are not on board fully with the philosophy that you're trying to promote.
	You want to be really consistent about it.
	And my question when I heard that come up is, since when is it a problem for a libertarian organization to have standards for their members?
	These are some of the same people who say, oh yeah, it's fine for a shop owner to allow only certain people on their private property, so why is it a problem for your particular organization to have standards for your members and your representatives?
	I just don't get that.
	Yeah, I don't get it either, Stephanie.
	It's not even that we don't want to include them.
	We do want to include them.
	We want to be there for them and to be a source of information for them and inspiration for them.
	However, we don't want them to be an actual representative until they have a clear grasp of the Voluntary's philosophy, which is the sole purpose of our organization, to bring together peaceful characters and Voluntary's in the spread of philosophy as far and wide as possible.
	Well, especially if there are children involved, right?
	Because if you have children playing together, the question… Children love to talk about big ideas.
	It's the great secret of childhood is they're very philosophically inclined.
	So if you've taught your children about arguments for atheism or whatever, then the kids are going to play together and then the kids are going to talk about this stuff.
	It's going to get back to the parents.
	It is a tricky minefield to navigate and to negotiate, and I think that's something we need to accept as a community.
	All right, Chase, did you have any more tonight?
	Yeah, just one more thing.
	Steph, I hope that one day you can make it down here to visit us.
	Maybe for a speaking event, we would love to have you.
	Oh, he's courting me!
	Sure.
	Chase, I'd love to.
	I'm really interested in what you're doing.
	Thanks for the call tonight.
	It's Free Talk Live.
	There's more coming up.
	up stick with us this is free talk live Welcome back to the show.
	It's Stephanie with you tonight.
	And Brian.
	And we've got Stefan Molnue on the line from freedomainradio.com.
	Hi, Stefan.
	Hi.
	You know, at the end of the last segment, Chase called in from the Blue Ridge Liberty Project, and he said, you know, Steph, I'd love to get you down here for a speaking engagement.
	And I thought he was, I assumed he was talking to me, but I think he was actually talking to Stefan.
	Yeah.
	I think he was actually inviting us both down for a doubleheader.
	Maybe he wants a doubleheader, yeah.
	Yeah.
	We can both show up in a cow outfit.
	I like to be the butt.
	Wow, that sounds awesome.
	I would not say no to that.
	But, you know, I just wanted to acknowledge that, Chase, if you were talking, no matter who you're talking to, it's cool, but I'm sorry if I made that assumption.
	The number to call tonight is 855-450-FREE if you'd like to talk with us.
	If you have a question for Stefan or you want to bring up anything else that's on your mind, 855-450-FREE. And I guess just real quickly on the topic of sort of religion and liberty, I wanted to just say, that was something that I was thinking was going to come up tonight, so I'm really glad that Chase called to bring that question to the table.
	And I think that probably someone like me would be pretty much in agreement with Chase, wanting to have those standards for the people that are close to him.
	I think that the Blue Ridge Liberty Project and the Free State Project are probably two very different entities because the Free State Project really doesn't have much criteria beyond the person is willing to or wants to move to New Hampshire.
	And get active for liberty, whatever that means for them.
	And the Blue Ridge Liberty Project has a lot more that they're looking for, I guess, out of their members.
	And so I kind of think of them almost as more like an intentional community where the Free State Project, maybe it gets painted a little bit more like a political movement.
	I don't know, something like that.
	What do you think, Brian?
	Brian?
	Yeah, well, I agree, but I do think they're two different animals.
	Two different things.
	But I do like the Free State Project's mission statement better.
	It appeals to me more.
	Okay.
	So, you know, like I don't speak for the Free State Project and neither does Ian, by the way, of course.
	So, I mean, it's kind of like talking about those things always gets contentious, right?
	Because people think like, oh, well, this person is a prominent activist in the Free State Project and they're saying this one thing.
	So everybody in New Hampshire must think that way.
	And, you know, I... There's a wide range of opinions within New Hampshire, okay?
	And I've said many times on the show before that there does seem to be this tension between the Blue Ridge and the Free State Project, but honestly, I'd like to see people live where it suits them best, whether that's staying wherever they are or moving to New Hampshire or moving to Asheville or whatever they want to do.
	But at the same time, I'd be really proud and happy to have people who are peaceful parents and voluntarists And are in line with all those consistent principles as my neighbors.
	I'd really be happy to see that.
	I don't really feel comfortable...
	When I think of telling somebody, oh, well, you're not really a voluntarist, I feel really uncomfortable about that, you know?
	Because I just don't...
	I don't know.
	It's not what I want to do.
	But I have to say, like, I think the people that are going to be my friends personally, the people that I'm going to want to...
	Associate with most.
	And we're all trying to constantly gauge who we're going to associate with and how much, right?
	We all have finite time.
	And we're all kind of judging people, you know, all the time.
	And so the people that I want most in my life are probably going to be people who are not of a religious persuasion, you know, that they're voluntarists and also atheists, right?
	But I'm just not comfortable saying, well, you're not a real voluntarist.
	I don't know.
	What do you think about that stuff?
	I think that, you know, people need to just, I think, work on the pursuit of truth.
	I mean, the labels are always a challenge, you know?
	People have occasionally said to me, oh, you should invent a name for your philosophy.
	It's like, first of all, if it's my philosophy, it's not good philosophy, because it's not personal, you know?
	You should invent a name for your weird subculture called science.
	It's like, no, no, no, no.
	If it's science, then it's not, you know, it's not mine.
	It's, you know, it's either two and two is four.
	It's not trademarked with whoever, you know, came up with it first.
	That's not Steph's math, right?
	Yeah.
	So, I mean, objectivism and existentialism and all.
	I mean, it's a good philosophy.
	Uh-oh.
	You know, I'm going to put Steph on hold.
	Steph, I'm not sure if you can hear me, but your internet seems to have broken up.
	So I'm just, just put you on hold for a moment here and we'll, we'll talk about something.
	Okay.
	So we're trying to get back the call here.
	That's the problem with Skype.
	I guess I had a nightmare that this would happen, but that's okay.
	We'll get Steph back on the line.
	And let's talk to, let's talk real quick with Mandrick.
	He's listening on the amp lines in Keen.
	Hi Mandrick.
	Are you with us?
	Okay, let's see.
	You know, I think we might have Steph back.
	Steph, do we got you with us?
	Uh-oh.
	I'm hearing some sounds that just sound really, really terrible.
	So I'm going to put you back on hold again, Steph, okay?
	So I wonder if the internet connection is...
	So Mandrick, okay, go ahead.
	What was your question that you wanted to ask Steph?
	And we'll try to work on the technical side of this here.
	Well, basically, some things I want to discuss with him, and just a couple quick questions, but I want to preface it with, you know, that I was raised with, you know, I had past trauma, like, you know, being spanked and going to public school, being raised religious.
	And when I listen to shows like FDR, School Sucks, and even your show Pork Therapy, Stephanie, I initially felt like a lot of people do, a lot of anger about the way I was treated as a kid.
	And, you know, I spent a significant amount of time confronting these issues and talking about it with close friends, just trying to work on being a better person.
	And I feel like I'm at a place where I don't feel angry about what happened anymore.
	You know, I'm just, I don't focus on traumatic events from the past because Mandrick, hold on, we're gonna try Steph on one more time.
	And Steph, are you back?
	Oh, Steph, we're still having some issues here.
	Yeah, so he can't hear us either.
	Okay, we'll try it again.
	Okay, so Mandrick, you said you, you know, you had some trauma in your past, right?
	And can you pick up where you left off with that?
	Sure, okay.
	You know, I don't focus on these things anymore.
	It's not the main focus of my life, I guess I should say.
	And I rarely listen to many of these podcasts anymore, and it's not because I think I'm perfect or that there's anything wrong with them.
	I just don't feel the need to be constantly reminded of my past trauma any more than I feel like the need to watch police brutality videos over and over again.
	You know, I understand what happened in my past, and I understand, you know, that cops can be thugs.
	You know, they're both terrible things, but I can't change my past, and I can't change...
	I don't feel like I can change these cops.
	But what I can do is work to be a better person, you know, who wants to have a positive impact on the people I interact with.
	And that's what my main focus is.
	Right.
	And I was actually talking to Brian about this before, and I remember he mentioned, he heard it, that Mark had said in the past that listeners will reach a point where they no longer need to listen to FTL. I was wondering if he felt the same about his own show, you know, Free Demand Radio.
	I understand the scars will never go away from our past, but do you think focusing on the pain all the time and constantly being reminded of it will help you heal?
	And I ask that mainly because I think some people may focus on that too much, too much on the past pain and less on healing and moving forward.
	That's really what I was wondering.
	Well, that's a really interesting question.
	We're having some connection problems with Steph right now.
	He's going to restart Skype.
	I think we are too.
	And we're going to see if we can hook back up with him.
	But, you know, I guess my thoughts on that question are...
	Yeah, like, I think it's really brave for anybody who's able to do that, right?
	To look at their past and say, look, some things happened to me that I was not really comfortable with, and acknowledge that that was messed up, you know, and to try to, I guess, maybe hold those people accountable who are responsible for that in some way.
	And to mourn what we didn't have, right?
	Sure.
	To have empathy for our past selves.
	To say, look, you know, I wanted to have all these things and I didn't get them.
	And then eventually, I guess we reach another stage where we feel more like we're healed, right?
	We're moving on.
	And is that what you're referring to?
	So you think that you'd like to see some more people in that healing stage, right?
	And not just the...
	- Horrible thing, you know, everyone's life's different.
	- Right. - I just wonder if the constant focus, like sometimes I see, it just seems like some people are just constantly focusing on the pain of the past. - It's a hard line to walk, you know, to when are you done, right?
	When are you done trying to heal from past hurts?
	And it's a great question.
	We're going to try to get Steph back on the line, and we'll answer your question when we get back.
	Thanks, Mandrick, for the call.
	Appreciate your thoughts.
	This is Free Talk Live, and there's more coming up.
	Stick around.
	We're going to talk about, you know, healing from our past.
	We are not wasting any time.
	And let's get right back into the show.
	You're listening to Free Talk Live, the Live Sunday edition, with me, Stephanie.
	And Brian.
	And Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain Radio.
	We've got Steph back.
	We had some technical difficulties before, but we're glad to have you back, Steph.
	And by the way, I just want to let you all know before the show ends, you're talking with a bunch of podcasters here today.
	You're hearing us on the radio, maybe, on Free Talk Live.
	Brian has his own podcast.
	It's called Sovereign Tech.
	S-O-V-E-R-Y-N tech.com is his website.
	It's a podcast about technology and how it sets us free.
	Thank you.
	I've got a podcast.
	It's called Pork Therapy, P-O-R-C, like a porcupine, porktherapy.com.
	You can hear more of me there.
	It's a podcast about personal freedom and relationships and all kinds of issues of, you know, that kind of like what we've been talking about tonight, quite honestly.
	So you may find that interesting as well if you'd like to hear more of us.
	And Steph, of course, is from freedomainradio.com.
	Now, Steph, in the last segment, I know you probably didn't catch this, but we had a caller call in, Mandrick from Keene, And he was basically wondering, you know, at what point, if you're someone who's trying to work on yourself and become conscious of your past traumas, that we all have, you know, all of us have them.
	We're conscious of them maybe to varying degrees, but we all have them.
	You know, and people can sort of get into really working on themselves, trying to deal with and process those traumas and mourn for them for what they never had that they wanted to have.
	At what point are you sort of done with that?
	At what point are you healed and can you move on?
	And I think he said that he was feeling kind of wanted to have some clarity about that.
	What do you think?
	I think that you are done with past pain when it has served its purpose, and its purpose is to protect you in the future.
	It's no different from physical pain.
	You know, my daughter jumped into a prickly weed and we had to pluck some little slippers out of her knees, little plant spikes.
	And why did her body make her hurt so that she wouldn't jump into another prickly weed?
	I mean, the pain is not about the past.
	Pain is about the future.
	Pain is there to protect you from re-experiencing the pain in the future.
	And so if you had, you know, if you experienced negative treatment in the past, then you are done with dealing with the past when you have understood it, you've processed it, you've accepted it, and you have changed your behavior so that you don't provoke a recurrence of the situation.
	So I think when you have really accepted and understood things in the past and you have changed your behavior, you've changed your relationships, you've either reformed your relationships or detached from people who are destructive and toxic, well then you're safe.
	In the future, and your past pain has served its purpose.
	That's a really interesting answer.
	Yep, I appreciate that.
	Okay, so we have two more callers on the line, and we're going to try to squeeze you both in.
	Let's go first to Greg listening in Cincinnati.
	Hi, Greg.
	Hi, how is everybody?
	Doing well.
	You're on Free Talk Live.
	Awesome.
	So I called in last night with a few things to say about Von Molyneux's most devout follower.
	I shouldn't say devout, but devoted followers.
	And I think I was maybe a little too harsh.
	And I'm happy that you have Stefan on the line because I want to share a particular incident that I had online one time where someone was, you know, sort of, what's the internet slang for just absolutely, you know, going after me?
	He kept choosing me.
	You were getting trolled?
	Yes, well, thank you.
	He kept accusing me for being logically inconsistent because I took a job that ended up taking a government grant.
	Turns out that that's not the case, but I thought I was going to take this job.
	Called me a poor libertarian, logically inconsistent, and kept hammering on the fact that all I'm doing is getting myself entwined with the state and the system as it is.
	I don't want to hear what you have to say.
	Attributing that sort of general, hardcore, I'm a perfect anarchist with Yvonne Molyneux, I think, was unfair of me.
	However, I would be curious about what he would say about that particular incident, because I think it's a very...
	Are you talking about you getting trolled online?
	Right.
	Getting trolled, yeah, yeah, exactly.
	Or someone, you know, was not...
	I didn't feel it was at all open-minded.
	And I tend to sort of associate...
	Conversations with that to people who follow Stefan Molyneux pretty closely.
	And I'd be curious if that would be a fair thing to even equate with?
	Let me just clear this up, Greg.
	Was your experience talking online with the person who said you're not principled and stuff?
	Right, because I took a job that actually was not government funded in the end.
	But yeah, I'd be relying on government grants.
	And so I was sort of getting trolled like crazy.
	Were you aware that those people were fans of Free Domain Radio?
	And this is exactly what I'm saying.
	I think I tend to generally equate those types of people with fans that generally are very supportive of Free Domain Radio.
	And I think that's unfair of me.
	Sorry, it wasn't confirmed that the people who were saying this to you, they were fans of this show or not?
	No.
	Well, look, let me give you the very brief thing.
	I mean, anybody who claims to follow me doesn't understand philosophy and doesn't understand what I'm doing and is missing the entire point of what I'm talking about.
	Philosophy is not an individual, right?
	You don't follow Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking.
	You follow the scientific method.
	You follow science.
	So that is not valid.
	If somebody wants to alter your behavior, then...
	You know, just yelling at you or calling you names.
	I mean, this is not going to alter your behavior.
	I mean, this is just known to harden people's defenses to make them oppositional and to make them much less likely to hear what you have to say for the next.
	The other thing, too, if somebody has to tell you that they're being rational, I can almost guarantee you that they're not being rational.
	Because if someone has to tell you that they're doing something, then they're not doing it.
	Because you would know.
	If someone's being rational, then you go, oh, wow, that's a really good point.
	Or that's a really great, I can't argue with that or whatever.
	So, yeah, anybody who says that they're following any individual is not getting the point of thought, of reason, of evidence, of philosophy, of independent and critical thought and anything like that.
	So, yeah, definitely be aware of those people.
	And of course, you never know if it's true, right?
	Somebody might just be a jerk and say, I'm going to be a jerk and I'm going to say I'm a big fan of Stefan Molyneux just to drag his name through the mud with my own ridiculous actions.
	I mean, who knows what it is, right?
	But anybody who says he's a fan of me and that's what's driving his thinking is not...
	It doesn't understand anything about what it is that I'm doing and is missing the point completely.
	It's like, you know, you see this, if you see a Dr.
	Phil show, people come on with the most ridiculous, insane behaviors and they say, oh, Dr.
	Phil, I've been watching your show since the very 10 years I've been watching your show.
	Every day I don't miss it.
	And it's like, would you like to process a little bit about what you're hearing or is it just entertainment to you?
	So, yeah, I just wanted to mention those few things.
	Yeah.
	Greg, I would like to say that I'm sorry you had those experiences where you weren't really being heard or, you know, considered very much.
	And I can relate to what you're talking about, too.
	Not necessarily with, you know, like any fans of any particular shows, but like...
	Online, I don't know if it's the best medium for having real productive conversations where people are really open with one another.
	Yeah, you're missing so much.
	Textual doesn't allow for inflection, doesn't allow for a lot of things.
	Yeah, I had felt really bad about the type of language I used in that call last night, and I was happy to have him on.
	As promised, as I said last night, I was starstruck.
	Great.
	Very well then.
	Thanks for the call, Greg.
	Appreciate your thoughts tonight.
	He's starstruck by you, Steph.
	Oh, does that mean I should call off the listeners from tracking down where he lives and re-educating him?
	Okay.
	Let me just send that text.
	Let me send a recall text to that.
	Call off philosophy dogs.
	Okay.
	The dragons are returning to their roosts and the eagle has landed.
	Let's see if we can squeeze in one last call this evening.
	We've got Kurt listening in LA. Hi, Kurt.
	Kurt, he should be sure.
	Yeah, I'll make it really quickly.
	Not to backtrack too far, but the guy who commented called in from the Blue Ridge organization.
	Yeah, Chase.
	Yeah, Chase.
	I consider myself to be both a libertarian and a religious person.
	I don't think there's anything wrong.
	I don't feel like I've got to be persecuted or anything from not being allowed to be representative of this organization.
	But I wonder if it's wise to subdivide the libertarian movement When it's already not exactly the largest group of people.
	I think there are lots of people who would agree with you there, although it probably depends on what their goals are, right?
	Like, if you just want to have a small community, maybe it doesn't matter, right?
	Well, if you're looking for votes, right?
	I mean, if you believe that voting is going to set you free, then the religious or non-religious inclinations of the person who checks off the ballot are sort of irrelevant to that goal.
	So if by libertarianism you mean the Political action or sharing information or whatever, then yeah, that doesn't matter.
	I refer to myself occasionally as a libertarian in terms of my political approaches, but I think we want a community that is dedicated towards truth.
	The moment you put some goal in the way of truth, you've lost your way.
	So our goal as a community should be to pursue truth.
	Not to pursue political freedom because that can't be achieved without the truth and we don't know what it's going to look like.
	Not to pursue some particular numbers, but simply to steadfastly and resolutely pursue the truth no matter where it's going to lead us, no matter how many quote friends it may cost us or gain us along the way.
	That is the goal.
	And I think that's the community we want to really espouse.
	Kurt, thank you for calling.
	If you have more, maybe you're welcome to call tomorrow night.
	It's been Free Talk Live.
	Stefan Molyneux from freedomainradio.com.
	Thank you so much for being on the show with us tonight.
	And it's been me, Stephanie, too.
	And Brian.
	And freetalklive.com is our website.
	They'll be back with more Free Talk Live tomorrow night in just 21 short hours.
	So we'll see you next time.

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