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Dec. 10, 2012 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:27:35

2276 Parents Religious, Me Atheist - Freedomain Radio Sunday Philosophy Call In Show Dec 9 2012

Stefan Molyneux, host of Freedomain Radio, discusses Parents Religious, Me Atheist, Procrastination and My Mother Was Almost Killed.

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	Good morning, everybody.
	Hope you're doing well.
	It's Steph.
	It is 10.
	Well, it's slightly after 10 in the morning on the most wonderful month of the year, except for all the other months.
	It is the 9th of December, 2012.
	Hope you're doing fantastically.
	Hope you're doing excellently.
	Thank you, everybody, for your very kind words about the fascists that surround you.
	I have one more to do to finish up the series and it's been a while I guess since I did a series but it's been Powerful and enjoyable and challenging, of course, emotionally to work on, and I'm glad that people have found it useful because it would suck to do depressing work without it being...
	And interestingly enough, people said it was kind of liberating, you know, stuff that they've always thought or stuff that they've experienced but haven't as yet quite articulated.
	So I appreciate all that feedback, and I hope that people will share it.
	I'll put a playlist together, of course, of the video and the audio.
	And yeah, again, I sort of wanted to mention, I think it was last Sunday that I mentioned to thank everyone who contributed to the documentary and of course as a result donations dropped off hugely so I just wanted to mention that.
	I like to show my appreciation but I also like to have some sort of predictable source of income for the beast.
	I'm working on a couple of ways to get FDR out to a wider audience and all of that still requires a little bit of cash so Don't mean to whine.
	Generally do.
	Regardless of my intentions.
	But if you can do anything to kick in.
	10 bucks a month.
	Oh, that's tasty.
	20 bucks a month.
	Double tasty.
	100 bucks a month.
	I bathe in gold coins.
	So it's really up to you.
	But whatever you can do.
	Just remember.
	You know, what's it?
	80 cents a day.
	80 cents a day.
	To fire a star canon of philosophy into the dark night of human thought.
	So I hope that you will check that out.
	And...
	Kick in some cash.
	Freedomainradio.com is the place to go.
	And I've also put a page together, which I'll make a little bit more pretty over time, but I put a page together of speaking engagements if you wanted to have a look at some of my speeches and see just how I've improved over the years with your help and support.
	You might want to check that out.
	It's on the homepage.
	But enough of me.
	This show is all about sheep.
	No?
	All about you.
	That's right.
	It's all about you.
	So, James, if you'd like to kick in the first caller, let's get it on.
	Hi, Stefan.
	How are you doing?
	I am very well.
	How are you doing, Matt?
	Good.
	So, the question I wanted to ask you is, I'm having difficulties dealing with the relationship with my mom, and it's predicated on the fact that she is a, what I like to call a super-Christian, and I rather recently have I've rejected all the tenets of Catholicism.
	So, I don't know if you want me to give you the history of this, or it's a little bit detailed, but yeah.
	I leave it to your discretion, my friend.
	Okay, so I guess I will.
	So, I guess before I was even born, my mom didn't grow up in a religious household by any means.
	I mean, back in the 60s...
	Sorry, I hate to interrupt you at the beginning, but I just wanted to point out that you are giving me by far the best history.
	Because a lot of people say, you know, well, last week I had this problem with my mom, or whatever, that's not much of a history.
	But you are very wise to start off with before I was born.
	I just wanted to mention that.
	That's a great place to start.
	In history.
	In fact, before my mother was born is even better, but this is good, deep history, and I appreciate that.
	So, go ahead.
	So, by no means did she grow up in a super-religious household.
	I mean, back in the 60s, I guess, her parents were Lutheran, I believe.
	They maybe went to church every Sunday.
	From what I know today, my grandfather is by no means religious.
	He thinks it's fairly stupid.
	But once my parents got married, when they had the first child, they ran through a bit of a tough time.
	They didn't have a lot of money.
	They're fighting a lot, and from this, my mom, I guess, was looking for something to try to help the situation.
	I guess, as you know, many of the religious groups are fairly good in finding people like this, and so for that reason, some of her peers were into Christianity, and so she joined, eventually joined Catholicism.
	I guess I shouldn't use those two interchangeably, but anyway, so the crux of the matter is that today, Pretty much they have everything they ever wanted.
	My parents are extremely well off.
	They seem to be happy and they attribute, well my mom at least, attributes all that to joining the Catholic faith.
	So once I was born, I was born into, I guess, religion.
	So I live in Canada and as you are probably fairly well aware of, we have these horrible creations called the Government-run Catholic schools, so I went to one of those.
	Sorry, just to be more precise, they're not government-run, they're government-funded?
	Oh, I'm sorry, yes.
	Right, it's the diocese that runs the schools and sets the curriculum, but it is the government and therefore the taxpayers and therefore the godless heathens among whom are forced to pay for them, but I just wanted to be clear on that.
	They're not government-run, but go ahead.
	Okay.
	I didn't know that, but thank you for clarifying it.
	So anyway, it was...
	I mean, it's weird because you have the same subpar type of education, but it's the same teachers that are also teaching things like about angels and hellfire and demons and all these awful things.
	So you literally go from, like, religion class, learning about, oh, how Jesus turned water into wine, and then straight into chemistry, where you need to learn, you know, the physical properties of matter.
	And, you know, knowing that's impossible, but they would...
	Somehow make you believe that it is.
	So it was very strange.
	So I went through all the regular religious sacraments, I guess.
	So I had my first communion.
	I was confirmed.
	And growing up, it wasn't just at school that I would hear about these things, obviously.
	We also had to go to church every Sunday by force or threat of punishment.
	We had no choice.
	If we didn't go, we weren't allowed to watch TV for the week or we weren't allowed our favorite meal or whatever.
	So my mom was also very into this Christian radio stuff.
	It was out of the States, and it's a little bit different form of Christianity, I think, because for what I was getting at church, it was more or less boring, and I just wasn't interested.
	But from the Christian radio, when she would learn, they were interested in evangelical type of things, which I didn't get from the Catholic Church.
	So every day after school around 4.30, we'd have to listen to this Children's program, teaching about the Bible in what they considered a fun way.
	And one of the things that really stuck with me, I remember there was this one segment, I guess, where they were talking about this character, right?
	His name was Eugene or something like that.
	And they were saying, Eugene lived a great life.
	He was a nice guy.
	He always did the right thing.
	So if ever there was a test and someone offered to help him cheat, Eugene wouldn't cheat.
	He would always do the right thing whenever he could.
	And then it sort of fast-forwards to the end of his life, and as he dies, and then he ends up in hell, and he wonders, like, I live this great life.
	I try to do the right thing all the time.
	Why am I in hell?
	And then the devil tells him, well, you never accepted Jesus into your heart, so that's why you're here.
	So we're sort of taught this idea that you could be a good person, but at the end of the day, if you never accepted this Jesus into your heart, or God, or accepted everything with religion, you're still going to end up in hell.
	And that really scared me as a child.
	I remember thinking about the concept of hell.
	The way that it was presented to me was, one, you're in this horrible, flaming, burning pit, and you're cut off.
	All your senses are sort of cut off.
	It's completely pitch black.
	You can't hear anything, and it's just for eternity.
	So it never ends.
	I can never really wrap my mind around that.
	It's just Thinking about it as a child was just horrifying.
	So it sort of kept me within religion based upon fear, which I guess is nothing new.
	But anyway, sort of as I was growing up, as I went into high school, my parents always forced us into these sort of religious camps or religious groups.
	For instance, one summer we went with them to what I think is called Cana Camp, anyway.
	So you go to this, you know, cabins in the middle of nowhere.
	You don't have any electricity or water.
	Every morning you have to go to church and see the rosary, all these crazy things.
	I remember one of the days they gave, I guess I was maybe 11 or 12 at the time, and they gave the younger kids the opportunity to go on this tour with the priests of this religious compound where the priests live and worship with the, I guess there was nuns, I don't know if that's what they were called anyway, while the older kids had to go and work on this farm.
	So I remember me and my younger sister, who is a year younger than me, so we went on this religious tour with the priests, and we went to see...
	I mean, it was really boring, but it was weird, because when the tour was over, I remember they brought us down to this dark, damp, dungeon-like basement, and they said, okay, well, the tour's over, and we want you to do some work for us now, since we took you on this tour.
	And my parents weren't there, so they never officially asked our parents if they could do this or not.
	Like, well, we want you guys to...
	Like, polish these things that we're going to put in a gift shop.
	So I remember we just sat there for a couple hours after this tour was over and we just, you know, polished coins and these religious trinkets and they didn't give us...
	I remember my hands were just burning from this polish that they gave us and they were like, oh, just don't worry about it, it doesn't matter, you're almost done.
	So it was very weird because I got this concept that there's parental authority and then there's religious authority and the religious authority somehow trumps the parental authority.
	And so, as I went into high school, I could never sort of...
	I went to, again, a Catholic high school in Canada.
	And I didn't have a lot of friends.
	I was a little bit of a social outcast, and it only made me become closer to...
	Sorry, go deeper into religion.
	Because my mom would just tell me, well, the reason why you're an outcast is because...
	You know, you're different.
	You've accepted God and Jesus into your heart, and all those other people who, um, they just don't get it in a way.
	So they're sinners, and we don't want to, uh, sort of associate ourselves with sinners.
	So I was, so I sort of, like, became more religious to myself.
	I mean, younger, I just thought, oh, this is so boring.
	I don't want to be here, but I have no choice.
	But I sort of started to become like my mom, in a way.
	Like, really not, I wasn't, it was weird, because I wasn't interested in it, but I sort of told myself it was the right thing to do to be interested in it.
	So I remember at the end of high school, or throughout high school, my mom would buy me and my younger sister these religious magazines from the States.
	It was called Breakaway and Brio.
	Anyway, the evangelical groups in the States, as opposed to what I was getting from the Catholic Church, were really big on sex.
	So all of the magazines were geared toward, oh, if you're a guy, don't think about sex.
	Masturbation, it's a horrible thing.
	Like, if you...
	If you commit this, then it's a sin, so you can't think about, you know, females and what's natural.
	And for the girls, what they would be getting is things along the lines of, you know, you have to dress modestly and you have to remain pure until you're married, and this ridiculous...
	I mean, it's not ridiculous, but anyway, things like that.
	So at the end of high school, me and my sister decided that we wanted to go on one of these evangelical missions to the...
	To Panama, so not Panama City, Florida, but to the country of Panama.
	So it was run out of a group from the U.S., one of these evangelical groups.
	So before we went on the trip, we had to fly down to Miami, and we had to learn about how do you talk to these savages that don't know anything about Jesus.
	So what we had to do is we had to put on this religious play regarding the The story of Jesus and how he was born in the major and how he was crucified on the cross, but it was like in a fun way, right?
	So as told from the perspective of toys or something like that.
	So we went down to Miami.
	We had to learn...
	I didn't speak a word of Spanish, but I mean, the people in Panama, they only speak Spanish.
	So they wouldn't...
	They would just give us these cards, I guess, that had these phrases that you just go up to someone and, for example, it would translate into like, oh, are you...
	Feeling sad in your life.
	Oh, do you want to accept Jesus into your heart?
	Oh, do you want to give me your email address and I can send you some information?
	So we flew down to Panama.
	It was maybe a group of about a thousand people.
	I've never done anything like this in the past.
	It was a very new experience to me.
	So when we got to Panama, every night we had to go to these silly religious seminars that mainly focused around the idea of of a sex, and you know, homosexuality, it's so wrong, and we had to hear a speaker of, oh, I used to be a lesbian, but I found God, and I'm no longer a lesbian.
	I'm such a sinner and a horrible person.
	And I remember, so there's separate talks for the guides and the girls, so I had to go to this talk from this, it wasn't, I don't know, the pastor of some sort, telling us how it's so wrong to have a girlfriend, because if you have a girlfriend and you don't plan to marry her, it's only Going to tempt you into having sex.
	And I remember I wasn't sitting in the front row, but the person who was sitting in the front row, he literally went up to them and just started shaking them and saying, are you going to have sex before you're married?
	Are you going to have a girlfriend?
	It's wrong.
	You can't do this.
	And I was just so shocked because it was a different type of religion to me.
	In the Catholic Church in Canada, there's never this...
	Again, it was boring, but they were never like...
	In your face and shouting at you, and do this, do that.
	This was around the time, it was right after, I guess it was maybe 2004, 2005, so this was like right after 9-11, and these people were just all about, oh, we love George Bush, and we love war, and we want to bomb all these awful brown people overseas.
	And I remember they, before every one of these sort of church talks, We have to get up and sing the U.S. National Anthem.
	Being from Canada, I didn't know them that well.
	I didn't sing along with them.
	I remember after they come to me, like, do you hate America?
	Why won't you sing the National Anthem?
	I tried to explain to them, no, it's just because I'm from Canada and I don't know the anthem.
	And they say, well, that's really no excuse.
	I mean, that's really disrespectful that you're not singing our National Anthem.
	Even though I would say to them, well, do you know the Canadian National Anthem?
	Oh, that doesn't matter.
	So anyway, we went around trying to convert the locals to Christianity.
	I mean, it basically boiled down to we'd give them free stuff.
	And in response to free stuff, they had to give us their email address so we could email them this ridiculous propaganda garbage when we got home.
	So on the plane ride home, they'd say, oh, look, we got 1,100 emails from the people of Panama.
	We have saved 1,100 people from the fires of hell.
	So anyway, when I got home, it was right before I went to university, I became super religious in this evangelical way, right?
	So I was going around telling people how to live their lives, and you're doing it wrong, and you're a sinner, and you're going to go to hell.
	It's just the worst aspects of Christianity.
	So when I did go to university, it was a very different environment, because it's liberal, I guess, in what I would consider liberal.
	We're by no means religious.
	Again, I didn't have very many friends.
	Again, the social outcast, it was very strange because when I would talk to people about philosophy or religion, they would really challenge me on the issues.
	For instance, they would ask me, why can't people use medicinal marijuana?
	Why is gay marriage wrong?
	It's issues that were just so hardwired into my brain at this point that they're wrong just because they're wrong, and I had a very hard time responding to them.
	So what I would do is I would call my mom, who was also very religious, and she always kept in line with this Christian radio.
	And on the Christian radio, what they would do is they would outline the arguments why gay marriage is wrong, the arguments why, you know, smaller one is wrong.
	They would tell you, if someone says this to you, you tell them that.
	If someone makes this argument, well, you respond with this.
	I remember I went and tried these really terrible arguments.
	For instance, I said, why is gay marriage wrong?
	Would we accept a man marrying a horse?
	It's the exact same thing.
	Marriage is defined as between a man and a woman.
	People didn't want to be around me, not surprisingly.
	At the same time, I was suffering from a chronic Which I'm sort of getting over now, even so today.
	And so it was a very lonely type of life because no one wanted to be around me.
	And if I was sick, it was sort of like, okay, I'm sick because I'm not praying.
	I'm not praying hard enough.
	And if anything ever went right in my life, it's, oh, it went right because of Jesus.
	So there's really no way out of it.
	I remember one time, one of my friends, he suggested that I watch this movie.
	It was basically a conspiracy theorist type of movie about the World Trade Center, Tower 7, things like that.
	One of the parts of the movie was about the hoax of religion.
	I remember watching it.
	The arguments that outlined were just horrifying to me.
	This idea that the concept of Jesus being born from a virgin mother on December 25th and all this stuff, it was by no means a new concept in history.
	I mean, they compared to many of the Egyptian gods, such as Horus or Mitra or Dionysus, I don't know if they're all Egyptian gods, but anyway, it was this exact same thing with them.
	Born from a virgin mother on December 25th, the crucifixion, all this, and they presented how The idea of Jesus really just came from the idea of worshiping the Son.
	So that absolutely horrified me that possibly what I believed in so strongly was just all a big hoax.
	And I remember trying to sort of pray it away in a sense.
	It basically came down to, oh, well, it's probably just the devil doing this.
	The devil put these other characters into existence and history to make it hard for us believers to believe in Jesus.
	I was eventually able to dismiss that in very strong arguments against religion, which, in retrospect, I couldn't believe I was able to do so.
	But anyway, what sort of started unraveling in terms of my faith was one of my friends, another person at church that I was going to at the time, they said, you should watch this movie.
	It was basically the argument from within the church as to why we should maybe broaden our horizons and accept things like gay marriage.
	So I watched the movie, and they made some very good arguments that maybe the passages that were basing this idea of gay marriage on from, I guess Leviticus, saying a man shall not lie with another man, all that other stuff, maybe it was only for the context of that time, and maybe we're taking it out of context today, because we certainly don't follow all the other crazy things written in the same verses, like, you know, don't plant two seeds in one hole, or other ridiculous things we don't even look to today at any level.
	I remember I called my mom up and I said, Mom, you really got to watch this movie.
	It's like they present some really good arguments as to why we might be wrong.
	And it was from a religious perspective so I accepted it.
	Because if it was from any other perspective, if it was just some, you know, group making a movie about Wagyu Mayor Tribute, right, I would have never watched, I would have never listened to a word of it.
	But because it was from the perspective of a religious group talking about why we should accept these people, I called my mom and I remember I watched it with her.
	And after watching it, She said to me, she said, oh my gosh, I can't believe this.
	We've been wrong all this time.
	This really changes everything.
	And she said, okay, I really got to think about this and just get back to me.
	So I remember a couple days later she called me up and she said to me, yeah, I thought about it and I turned to God and I prayed really hard and I read the Bible and you know what, I just can't accept it.
	What this sounds a lot like to me is back in the 70s when they were trying to So, your mom has...
	Has a big problem with emotional manipulation over rational argument, but she's got no problem setting you to a place where they talk about hell.
	Okay, just checking out that.
	Go ahead.
	So anyway, I remember after that, it was just very strange to me because they made some completely legitimate arguments to me within the context of religion as to why this is wrong, but she's just completely being irrational on this.
	And when I would talk to her about other aspects of it, like Okay, maybe you don't believe in calling it marriage, but do you at least believe that, you know, same-sex couple, can they adopt children?
	She's like, no, that's absolutely not okay.
	I mean, a child has to be raised with a mother and a father.
	And she made some completely ridiculous argument, like, let's say you have two mothers raising a boy.
	How are they going to explain to him when he has his first wet dream?
	They're not going to be able to explain that to him because they've never gone through it.
	Or if it's two men raising a A female, when she has her first period, how are they going to explain that to her?
	That's just so unfair to the child.
	I remember thinking, well, isn't Wikipedia around?
	I mean, how hard is it to just Google these things or read about it in advance knowing it's going to happen?
	So I asked her, so would you rather have these children living in, you know, in an orphanage than living with two parents that actually want to alone?
	They said, no, no, it's absolutely better that they stay in the orphanage away from these parents that will only And then when I press on, I'm like, hey, so does that mean that single parents shouldn't be allowed to have kids either?
	I say, well, that's very different because those single parents, at one point they had a father and maybe they're still in contact with their mother and their father.
	I remember at this point, I realized how ridiculous she was being and this is completely irrational and it's stupid.
	But it wasn't enough for me at that point to sort of say, okay, enough of religion, I'm out of here.
	So it was enough, however, to make me change churches.
	So I went from the Catholic Church, which is fairly strict in all beliefs.
	It's not really geared toward young people.
	I remember going to church and just trying so hard to be interested, but it's really just impossible.
	So I changed church.
	I switched to the United Church, which was a little bit more open.
	We did things like same-sex marriage or medicinal marijuana, even.
	I remember I would go there, and I still never felt like I belonged there.
	I tried very hard to listen during the sermons that the pastor would give and take notes and try to apply to my own life, and it just was very...
	It was just a hassle every Sunday morning, knowing, oh my God, I have to go to church.
	It's so boring.
	I don't want to go.
	But at the same time, there's this religious aspect to me saying, well, if you think church is boring, that's not okay.
	That's a sin.
	You have to try a little bit harder, you know?
	So it was just, it was weird.
	It was, I don't even know how to describe it.
	My body thought, you don't go.
	It's so boring.
	But at the same time, it's like, okay, but if you don't, I remember one morning I got up and I just did not want to go to church.
	It was cold outside.
	I had to walk 20 minutes to go to church.
	I wasn't sick by any means.
	I just had a cough.
	I remember trying to justify to God.
	The way a child who didn't want to go to school would justify, like, oh, I don't feel well today.
	Oh, look, I have a cough.
	I tried to explain to God, oh, Jesus, I'm so sorry.
	I just can't make it into it.
	I'm just sick.
	So I ended up not going to church that day, but I felt so guilty about not going.
	Okay, you know what?
	I didn't go to church.
	One hour, I'm just going to have to read the Bible to make up for it.
	So I did.
	And thinking back, everything I ever did in the context of religion was never based on love and this is great and I really enjoyed it.
	It was all based on fear and shame and guilt.
	And it was just a very miserable existence.
	And I remember just...
	I don't even...
	I can't even put my finger on it.
	It just...
	Slowly over time, I just stopped going.
	I just didn't go to church anymore.
	At first, I was like, oh my God, if I stop going to church, maybe horrible things are going to start happening in my life, and that'll be a sign to me that this is God telling you that you've turned away from me, and that's what happens to you, because you've turned away from the church.
	Hello?
	Specifically...
	Down in the past, in Christians, you know, the dark ages, things like that.
	And I just began to realize it's so simple and useful.
	And another argument, I remember growing up, one of the things I struggled with was this concept of hell.
	I remember even when I was six or seven years old, I would ask my mom, because we were taught that God knows everything about you.
	He knows everything you're ever going to do before you even know you want to do it.
	I remember asking my mom when I was younger, I said to her, Mom, if God knows everything we're going to do and what's going to happen to us, why does God even make us if he knows we're going to end up in hell?
	And she had no response to that.
	And she's like, okay, well, maybe you should ask the priest what he thinks about that.
	And I don't remember.
	I think I did.
	And there was something along the lines of, oh, God knows everything.
	He knows every decision, but he doesn't actually know what decision you're going to make.
	So he knows that there's this matrix of, you know, you can pick choice A or you can pick choice B. He knows all decisions on what they're going to end up, and how they're going to end up, and he knows if you pick this choice, you're going to end up in hell.
	But he's not clearly sure on what choice you're going to make, because he still gives you some free will.
	It just didn't really...
	It was weird to me, even as a child.
	So, again, it just came back to eventually I had to stop going.
	I wasn't...
	My life wasn't falling apart.
	It was getting so much better.
	So when I went to my parents, I should say this actually.
	All three of my siblings, none of them, they didn't have the same experience I did.
	Even though my younger sister went with me too on this horrible evangelical mission, she never turned out the same way.
	They just went to church on Christmas and Easter.
	They just sort of, oh yeah, we're Christian.
	The typical buffet style Christian where they would just pick whatever aspects they want to listen to and everything else we can just parade away at some point in our life.
	Ask God for forgiveness, you know, a typical deathbed, repentance type of thing.
	So they would still, like, my mom, she knew they weren't going to church or they weren't, like, firm believers in Christianity, but she always had this belief in her head that, oh, one day they're going to turn back to God and they're going to become just like me when I have children.
	They're going to baptize them and make sure that child grows upright.
	So I remember just one Christmas, everyone was going to church and they're like, oh, are you coming?
	I said, no, I don't want to go.
	And she was...
	I don't know.
	She was devastated, I guess.
	I had to explain to her that I don't believe in this stuff anymore.
	I don't want to do this.
	Every time I try to have this conversation with her, it really makes me mad because she'll go to, oh, the devil's really gotten a hold on you.
	He's tricked you good.
	You've turned away from God, and he's really pulled the wool over your eyes.
	Don't worry.
	I'm going to pray for you.
	One day you're going to come back.
	And I try to tell her, like, you're just wasting your time.
	I'm so much happier this way.
	But she just doesn't get it.
	And it's really started to cause a lot of friction between her and I because I just don't...
	I just can't talk to her.
	Like, every time I see her, it always goes back to this.
	I try to explain to her, like, this silliness of religion and how, like, you know, you just were Christian because we were born in North America.
	If I was born in, you know...
	Iran, I would be Muslim.
	It's just, you know, you adapt whatever around you.
	And even if you want to turn to some religion, you're, of course, going to pick up the one that's already available to you.
	And I don't...
	It's this concept of, when you decide to become Christian, and you go out and research all the faiths of the world about Islam and Buddhism and Christianity or Hinduism, I think, oh, which one's right for me?
	I think this one's the best.
	I'm going to stick with...
	Or philosophy.
	Exactly, yeah.
	But...
	But yeah, she's impervious to these arguments.
	And when I think about myself, and people would argue with me when I was in university, I was also impervious in the same way, but I liken it to, like, I was a sheep in a group of all...
	But for her, like, she's a sheep, but she also has this community of sheep.
	So if anyone ever...
	She sort of questions her beliefs.
	She can run to them and just, you know, oh my god, they brought up this point and how should I respond to them?
	And she has this whole community that she can fall back onto so easily.
	And every time you bring up a point and you can, like for example, I remember once, it wasn't too long ago, we were at dinner, and my older sister brought up the point of like, I mean, I can understand how Noah's Ark is possibly a parable of some sort, but mom, you don't actually believe that.
	He went around and We picked up every insect and animal and put them on this boat.
	She started getting really emotional and you could see her tearing up and she'll start crying.
	You feel horrible just talking to her about it.
	There's no way of getting through to her.
	I've just gone to the point where I'm giving up on it.
	I don't know if I should even bother anymore.
	Anyway, feedback is much appreciated here.
	Right.
	So, first of all, I just want to say I'm really, really sorry about what you got exposed to as a kid.
	I mean, that's scary stuff.
	That's really scary stuff.
	The things that we say to children are very, very, very serious.
	You know, you tell children about hell, and it's hell.
	And it's everlasting torture and torment.
	And it is pitiless and it is merciless.
	And, you know, we get horrified, and rightly so, we get horrified at Abu Ghraib and so on, and places where supposedly civilized nations are engaged in Torture.
	And the torture is relatively minor relative to, you know, what would go on in a Nazi death camp or something and make human lampshades out of people's skins and all that kind of stuff.
	But we get appalled at waterboarding and, you know, these uncomfortable positions that they force people to stay in and all of that, of course, is wrong and immoral.
	But we don't get as horrified when we threaten Infinitely worse punishments to children that will go on forever among a group of people where there will be no intervention, where death itself would not even be a release, right among devils whose hearts are completely evil, sociopathic, psychopathic, monstrous.
	We know that to threaten an adult is illegal.
	People go to jail for making threats, right?
	So if I say, you know, give me $50,000 or I'm going to break your leg, we understand that that is evil and people will go to jail for that.
	We don't reward criminals for their failure to follow through on their plans, even if it was, oh, I was only kidding.
	It doesn't matter, right?
	So if you make a threat to an adult...
	You go to jail.
	But the teaching of hell to children, which is, you will go to church or you will burn in hell.
	You will obey this book or you will burn in hell.
	It's only our continued, unbelievable blindness and lack of empathy to ourselves as children and to the next generation of children that That this could even be conceived of as anything other than kind of psychotic.
	So I really want to sympathize with that.
	And I mean, I get it.
	I mean, I was not taught in the Catholic tradition, but I was certainly no stranger to hell.
	So I just want to say that I'm really sorry.
	It does damage.
	I mean, is that a fair thing to say?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Like, even still today, even being out of religion, the indoctrination that occurred to me is still very present in my life.
	Whenever I do anything, I sort of revert back to this, well, what would Jesus do in this situation?
	Even though, what's the right thing to do?
	What is always within?
	What's the right thing to do in terms of religion?
	I really have to sort of...
	I have to realize, you know, what's the right thing to do?
	And what's really the right thing to do.
	I'm still getting over it in many ways, but I'm sort of in the healing process, I suppose.
	Is there anything you wanted to talk about in terms of that healing process?
	Because I can certainly hear the emotion in your voice when you talk about that.
	Not really.
	Maybe for another call.
	I'm not sure.
	Well, just before we talk about your mom, I just want to tell you one of the things that I found helpful in overcoming this kind of indoctrination is to recognize the antidote to...
	Propaganda is economics.
	I know that sounds kind of weird, but for me at least it was quite true.
	The antidote to propaganda is economics.
	So if you are told stuff, you follow the money.
	So we all understand that the propaganda around the state is fundamentally economic.
	I mean, it's pay your taxes.
	You can go protest if you want, but just pay your goddamn taxes.
	Right?
	The The whole propaganda about all of this stuff.
	Why are we told to care about the poor?
	Is it because the government cares about the poor?
	Good lord, no.
	If they cared about the poor, then they would never inflate the currency, which hurts the poor the most of all.
	If they cared about the poor, then they would be madly dedicated towards improving the quality of public schools, which they're not.
	If they cared about the poor, they would never run debts and deficits, because when they end up having to deal with those one way or another, Then the poor will suffer the most.
	So, I mean, of course they don't care about the poor, but what they do care about is that we care about the poor and we'll give them money, which they then keep 80% off and trickle stuff down to the poor.
	And they love to give money to the poor, not because they care about the poor, but because that gives them reliable votes for the maintenance or expansion of state power, right?
	So, I mean, you're obviously a very intelligent fellow, right?
	Good job, Jesus.
	A well-tuned brain.
	The Santa's elves were not napping on the day that your brain was created.
	So good job, elves.
	Good job, brains.
	Good job, Jesus.
	So let's just talk about one of the things, and you can take this approach to a number of different things that you heard in terms of propaganda, but let's just talk about one of the things.
	The story, was it Eugene who did all these good things?
	And, you know, if somebody asked him to cheat on a test, he wouldn't cheat.
	I've always found the religious hostility to cheating kind of strange, because, I mean, miracles are cheats to begin with, right?
	It's breaking the rules.
	Anyway, of course, if you have a good argument, you don't need miracles, and you don't need threats of hell, right?
	I mean, philosophy as a whole generally does not save you from hell.
	I mean, in the long run, I think you'll be happier, but certainly for the first couple of years, it's pretty tough, right?
	But what's the economic driver for telling you that good works alone, good deeds alone will not save you?
	Well, I mean, they want to keep you locked in.
	I remember every time we went to church, even as children, my mom would make us give 10% of our allowance to the church in tithing.
	So it's of no surprise that they would tell you that You have to give money to us and be a part of our group.
	Otherwise, you have to accept Jesus.
	And this whole concept of accepting Jesus is giving us money.
	So, yeah.
	Yeah, everything that's predicated is around the transfer of money.
	Right.
	So, no good works means that they need to maintain a monopoly on what is called virtue.
	Okay.
	Yeah, okay.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	It's called rent-seeking.
	It means that you seek some advantage, usually through some nefarious means, through some sort of governmental means.
	You seek some advantage which guarantees you income.
	And the way that you get guaranteed income is you reduce or you eliminate competition, right?
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	If I could put every other form of media out of business, then I would probably get a few more listeners, right?
	Right.
	So, that is an example, of course, of needing to maintain a monopoly.
	And the other thing, too, that occurs in terms of propaganda is you really don't talk about the money, but in reality, everything is about the money.
	Yeah.
	So you can't say, you have to give us money, or you're going to hell.
	Because that clearly is an extortion racket.
	I mean, in fact, it's worse than an extortion racket, because the fucking mafia doesn't prey on children.
	That's true.
	And the fucking mafia won't screw with your head that much.
	I mean, they may work over your kneecaps.
	But they won't screw you with that.
	And the mafia doesn't claim to be moral.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	So, they can't say, give us money, or we'll torture you, because that's clearly illegal, right?
	Right.
	But they will say, you'll go to hell if you don't accept Jesus.
	And what does accepting Jesus mean?
	Giving us money.
	You see, it's the same thing.
	And this, I think, is the boundless immorality of what goes on, is that it all comes down to give us money.
	Right.
	And everything that you've been taught is around give us money.
	So, I mean, why is the Church so hostile to masturbation?
	Because masturbation is inevitable.
	And universal.
	Yeah.
	I mean, all mammals, I'm sure that if bacilli could get their flagellum around their minuscule penises, they'd basically be rubbing one out all over your bloodstream, right?
	Well, it's weird because, I mean, some people would, well, sorry, I remember a priest telling us that, okay, if you need to masturbate, it's okay, but as long as you're doing it, Wait, you have to be with your wife?
	Yeah.
	Like on the bus, does it matter anything?
	I'm sorry.
	Honey, I need to borrow your coat for a moment.
	Give me the fur one.
	Well, of course, look, the reason that masturbation is a sin is because it's inevitable.
	Mm-hmm.
	And therefore, you're going to need to pay them money to remove a curse that they've got you for something that is not immoral.
	Right.
	Right?
	Of course there's nothing wrong with masturbation.
	The issue that...
	Well, the homosexuality issue, perhaps we can deal with it another time.
	Of course, we know the degree of harm that pedophile priests...
	I'm not equating homosexuality with pedophilia, but of course not, right?
	I mean, the two are completely in opposites, but for a child who is molested by a priest to have problems with male-to-male sexuality to a little boy who's...
	like, it's inevitable, right?
	Right.
	And, I mean, if you were gay, the clergy was in the Middle Ages, and if you were gay, the clergy was the place to go, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, oh, you have to renounce marriage and live with a whole bunch of other men, none of whom wear underpants?
	Okay.
	I mean, monasteries with the masses in the Middle Ages.
	Just another point.
	I mean, if you look at the Pope on his throne with his incredibly gay teacup, you see, of a costume and that uncircumcised penis hat that he wears.
	I mean, it's so gay.
	You know, it makes Liberace look like Bruce Willis.
	And that's just an important thing to understand as well.
	But it is tragically all about the money.
	And everything else.
	You know, it's like if you ever get, you know, oh, you get a free cruise, but you have to go watch this timeshare presentation.
	You know, we did that once.
	Oops.
	You know, this lady took my wife and I to breakfast and was very chatty, asked us all about ourselves, this, that, and the other, right?
	And if you mistake that for friendship, that's a mistake.
	It's about the money.
	Right.
	I don't mind that it's about the money, they've got to eat and all that, but it's all about the money.
	So if you look at whatever hangs out in your psychology, whatever was inflicted on your psychology, the best antidote to propaganda is economics, because economics brings the cleansing sunlight corrosive of cynicism to this stuff, right?
	So if you look at, you know, your mom is a source of income, or you say your parents are doing really well, and if you can get 10% of people's money before taxes, it's pretty damn sweet, right?
	Yep.
	And if your mother has doubts and she goes to the priest, the priest's job is to retain the income.
	Yeah.
	The priest's job is to retain the income.
	Now, please understand, I'm sure there are some idealistic priests and this and that, and I get it.
	They think they're saving souls and so on.
	And the purpose of going to South America is to gain income, to infect people with the illness called sin so that you can have them pay you forever for the imaginary cure called absolution.
	It's a virus.
	And you were heavily infected, and I am so sorry for that.
	Okay.
	I really am.
	I mean, it's just horrible.
	You know, people have enjoyed for many years my metaphor of the country is a tax farm, right?
	Yeah.
	But, I mean, the church is worse.
	Right?
	Because the state, I mean, you give them your money, and they kind of leave you alone, right?
	I mean, you don't sit there and say, well, what would Barack Obama think of me masturbating?
	I mean, maybe you do.
	It's kind of kinky.
	Maybe you do.
	But it's not necessary, right?
	And the churches as a whole are very long-term child-harvesting propositions.
	Right.
	I mean...
	One of the reasons that the Church is against homosexuality is homosexuality does not provide them children.
	Neither does lesbianism, at least, for most times in history, right?
	Yeah, that's funny.
	Because they're all about—sorry, go ahead.
	It's weird because, as I mentioned, none of my siblings are into—they pretend they're into religion for the sake of my mother, right?
	So, my younger sister just recently got married, and they're planning on having children, and I asked her, are you going— To baptize your child.
	She said, well, you know, I don't believe in any of this stuff, but I think I'm going to do it just to make mom happy.
	And it's difficult for me to talk to her because she doesn't want to hurt my mother, but at the same time, I know the harm that it could possibly cause to their children by doing this.
	Even if your parents don't necessarily believe in religion, but they send you away to these schools that teach you about it, there is a chance you're going to end up like myself.
	Well, sorry, just to be clear, though, I mean, if religion stopped at baptism, who would bother?
	I mean, who would care?
	Yeah, exactly.
	I mean, okay, so you got a little water from a guy when you were a baby, right?
	The real question that I would put to your sister, I mean, if I were you, is, are you going to allow mom to teach your children about hell?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Right?
	Yeah, I can see...
	He's really on the fence about it now when I'm trying to get to the door.
	No, no, this is not an on-the-fence proposition.
	This is not an on-the-fence proposition, right?
	Because let's say your sister drops her kids off and they're five and seven or whatever.
	Yeah.
	And she drops her kids off with your mom for a day.
	And your mom decides to sit down and tell them all about how Jesus died for their sins and they're born sinners and they're going to go to hell.
	Yeah.
	It's that and the other, right?
	Yeah.
	They're going to freak out.
	Yeah, that's true.
	No, seriously, you laugh, but I mean, that's going to be some terrifying shit, right?
	Yeah.
	And then what?
	Yeah.
	Then what do you do?
	Right?
	It's a brain virus.
	You must protect your children.
	Okay.
	You cannot expose.
	I mean, if your mom had some physical illness that could be transmitted, you would not have her babysit your kids, right?
	Right, right.
	I mean, unless you can come up with a deal, right, with your mom that says, we don't talk to them about religion, they can choose when they get older, right?
	Okay.
	All right.
	And that deal has to be in place.
	In my opinion, this is, I'm just telling you, I can't tell you what you should do.
	I certainly can't tell your sister what she should do.
	But if we understand how dangerous this stuff is, how brain-altering it is.
	Because everything, every companion of the parent is good in the eyes of the child.
	Every babysitter, everyone you go visit is good in the eyes of the child because the idea that...
	So, I mean, if your sister's kids get told about hell and Jesus and so on by her mom, by your mom...
	And then you say, well, no, that stuff is not true, and actually it's really bad.
	Then they'll be like, well, why am I there then?
	This woman's going to tell me really terrifying, frightening, horrible stuff.
	Why am I there?
	Why wasn't this worked out or something like that?
	Anyway, so this is not a, well, are you going to get your kids baptized?
	I mean, I don't think that doesn't matter at all.
	Because there's no – I mean, they won't remember it.
	There's no indoctrination in that, right?
	But it is important to keep your children away from this stuff.
	Religion is a form of – how do I best to put this?
	Because religion also changes genetics, right?
	Because ideas change your genes.
	Ideas that are enacted through behavior change your genetics.
	So it's a genetic dysfunction that replicates through behavior.
	It uses behavior to replicate itself.
	It's either a brain pattern, i.e.
	your way of thinking.
	And brain patterns replicate.
	They seek to replicate just like genes do.
	Memes, right?
	Brain patterns and the genetic changes that they engender seek to replicate themselves.
	Like, you know, they use your mother to replicate themselves in the next generation.
	They're like a devil.
	Right?
	I hate to use this religious metaphor, but they're like a devil.
	Like, you know, your toe doesn't care about you.
	Your toe only wants to make another toe, and it's using you to make another toe.
	And yes, it will help you balance and climb trees and stuff like that, but only because that helps you to make another toe.
	The toe doesn't care about you.
	The toe only cares about the next toe.
	Can I make another toe?
	That's my only goal.
	When I wake up in the morning and I'm a toe, I'm like, I want another toe.
	I want to make another toe.
	I don't have a penis as a toe, so I will help the penis find a vagina so I can make another toe.
	If your penis does have a toe, please do not send me any photographs.
	Or maybe you should.
	And it's the same thing, right?
	The religious mindset...
	Simply seeks to replicate itself in the next generation.
	It's a meme that breeds through propaganda.
	And it's very dangerous.
	Very dangerous.
	Because you can't be cured.
	And I don't mean to say that you'll forever be sick.
	What I mean is, like, you have a cold and you're done with your cold.
	You're like you didn't have a cold, right?
	Yeah.
	Doesn't linger, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	But if you lose a finger, you can work around it, but you still don't have a finger, right?
	And you certainly can be very healthy, but you can't ever be somebody who wasn't religious, right?
	Right.
	That will always be there.
	Not like frostbite, like a constant ache, but it's not curable in that you cannot be restored to how you were beforehand, right?
	Right.
	And again, I'm not trying to make you despair.
	I'm just talking about the seriousness of the affliction.
	I will never be cured.
	I will never be somebody who was never religious.
	Now, I'm happy, I'm strong, I'm confident, and all of that.
	But it's not undoable.
	And that's the important aspect of the next generation, right?
	Now, sorry, Ed, is there anything you wanted to sort of ask or add about that?
	No, that's okay.
	So, as far as your mom goes, I mean, are there things that you enjoy in your relationship with your mom outside the religiosity?
	Yes.
	I mean, when we're not discussing anything in regards to religion, she's a very fun, caring person.
	She's very nice.
	I still love my mom.
	It's hard because I know she only did what she did because she thought it was the right thing to do.
	But it's hard because I can't get through to her.
	So it's a question of whether or not I just give up.
	Do I stop seeing her?
	I'm at that point where I don't know what to do next.
	Well, I mean, if you like her as a person, But it feels like an obligation in a way, right?
	I'm sorry?
	It feels like it's an obligation to a family member, though.
	What is an obligation?
	I mean, if it was anybody else that inflicted this type of...
	Oh, like if it was some teachers?
	Yeah, I would just, you know, I'd never see them again.
	I'd cut them out of my life, but because of my mother, it's sort of like this idea that, okay, well, she's your mother.
	You're obligated to at least have a relationship with her.
	And again, am I speaking from religion?
	I don't know.
	Yeah, I mean, honor thy mother and thy father, right?
	Exactly.
	I mean, in the Bible, of course, parents are allowed to, in fact, kill children who disobey them.
	Right.
	There's no mention of the obligation that parents have to children, other than bring them to Jesus and give them to us, right?
	Do you think that it's possible...
	Okay, so, I mean, there's a couple of options, and I don't know, obviously, which ones you should do.
	I mean, I don't think anyone can tell you, but I can sort of lay them out so that they can be a little clearer in your head.
	Okay.
	But logically, at least I see a couple of options.
	So the first option is you sit down with your mom and you say, Mom, I don't want to talk about religion with you.
	We're in different places.
	I don't know where you're going to end up.
	I don't know where I'm going to end up.
	But right now, it's not productive or positive for me to talk about religion.
	I like you.
	You're a caring person.
	You're a lot of fun.
	I love you.
	But...
	This religious thing is going to cause significant problems for us.
	And I don't know where I'm going to end up.
	I don't know where you're going to end up.
	But right now, I would like to enjoy my relationship with you without discussing religion.
	How does that sound, at least for the time being?
	Okay.
	It's just, I know, I'm pretty sure what she'll respond to that would be, okay, that's fine, but I'm still going to pray for you.
	And what that's really telling me is that she's not...
	Happy with the person I've become.
	You know, she's not proud of me.
	So that thought will always linger, you know, even though she's not, maybe we're not talking about religion, but I know she's going to keep praying.
	I know that.
	Okay, and obviously you can't stop her from praying for you, right?
	I know, I know.
	And I'm going to ask Jesus to tell me if he sees any of those laser broadcasts coming up from your forehead as you kneel by your bed at night.
	So look, I mean, you can't obviously stop her from praying for you.
	And in a way, I mean, in a weird way, it's kind of admirable, and it can give you some peace that your mother would still want to pray for you.
	And I'll tell you why.
	Okay.
	If she said, yeah, that's fine, we don't have to talk about religion, I think you're doing great.
	Okay.
	That would be really bad.
	Okay.
	Do you know why?
	Well, it'd be a lie.
	No, let's say it was true.
	Okay.
	No, I don't...
	That'd be even worse.
	Why would that be bad?
	Because it would be...
	So your mom sent you to people who taught you about hell, scared the head out of you, for something that she doesn't even really care about that much.
	Okay.
	So the fact that she's committed to saving, quote, saving your soul, which means making money for the priests, right?
	You understand?
	The fact that she wouldn't give up without a fight means that it wasn't frivolous to her.
	And because it wasn't frivolous to her, although it was a mistake and a bad one to send you there, there is a weird kind of integrity to it, right?
	Yeah, that's a good point.
	Yeah, I never thought about it like that.
	So if you can set up a boundary around religion, then that is important.
	But you'll also have to set up a boundary, not just now in the future, because a lot of religions will give people, before they get married, a little leeway, a little run on the leash.
	But then when you get married, and particularly when you're going to have children, the clams come back in, right?
	Because then it's like, oh, you know, the farmer doesn't pull on the crops until the crops have grown, right?
	So he leaves the crops alone, pretty much.
	He swatters them and all that.
	He leaves the crops alone until they're ready to be plucked, right?
	And so through the church, the pressure will come, and through the community, the pressure will come when you guys start having children, right?
	Crops are ready.
	Let's go harvest, right?
	Bring them to us.
	And so you'll also have to, you know, I would assume, sorry, I shouldn't say you have to, of course, I'm just saying in this approach, I would consider it very important to make sure that your mother understands that when you have children, they're going to choose children.
	I'm going to teach them about a wide variety of things, and my religious heritage is part of the things that I will be teaching them about, but I am not going to inflict any particular belief system as if it's true on them before they're able to understand the context.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Absolutely.
	And so you cannot be talking to my children about religion.
	Okay.
	Right.
	I mean, you can't have religion when you're a kid for the same reason you can't have sex when you're a kid, because you don't understand the context, you don't understand the concept.
	And you're physically immature, and your brain, of course, is physically immature to process such concepts, which is why, I mean, religion has no arguments that appeal to a so they can only inflict terror on the helpless, right?
	Yeah, I actually remember asking my mom one time, Asher, why did you baptize me when I was a child?
	why didn't you let me choose it for myself when I was older and actually understood it?
	And then I actually responded, well, you know, the devil is out there, and he'll use whatever he can to get a hold of you.
	Well, that's quite true.
	That's quite true.
	It's just that the devil's in Rome.
	He will use whatever he can.
	So, you can draw these boundaries, right?
	And I'm not saying that it's easy, but you probably need to reestablish them every couple of visits, you know, and over time it will probably normalize.
	And, you know, in my humble opinion, and of course all of this is just my opinion, that actually will be great for you and your mom.
	Okay.
	Right?
	Because there's no intimacy where there's fantasy.
	Right.
	Wherever there is delusion, there is no intimacy.
	Okay.
	People who sleepwalking through the jungle in their dreams, like they're walking around their house, but they're not in the jungle.
	They're only imagining it.
	Right.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	and so you're trying to get the fog of religion away from her so you can actually give her a hug.
	Right.
	Connect with her.
	Yeah, I just...
	Without going into the programmed robot, godbot stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	So if you...
	Let me just finish this point and then I'll...
	If you can keep the religious stuff away from your relationship, I mean, I think your relationship will improve.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, I mean, the thing is, you know, I'm so much happier now that I'm out of religion, and I question whether or not she's actually happy.
	And so it comes down to, I want her to be happy, and to make her happy, I want her to realize that everything she believes in is just a fairy tale, in a way.
	Sorry, but you understand that before she gets happy, she's going to go through a long time of incredible unhappiness and guilt.
	I do realize that, but I think when she comes out the other side of that, if she ever does, I think she would be a lot happier.
	Because if you tell somebody who thinks that they've benefited their children, that they did unfathomable and untold and unmeasurable harm to their children...
	I mean, I'm sure you can get how unbelievably devastating that would be.
	Oh, of course.
	Yeah, of course.
	And how angry she would then be at having been used for money.
	Yeah.
	Having harmed her children for the profit of others.
	Having served sociopaths, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, that would be...
	I can't imagine it.
	So, for you, I mean, it's important not to confuse yourself with other people, of course, right?
	You did not whisper hell into children's ears, right?
	Right.
	You've never done that.
	Now, if you had done that and harmed children and frightened children and damaged children, it would be a hell of a lot harder for you to let it go.
	So, you're the victim, right?
	The victim...
	Has an infinitely easier time escaping the abuse than the victimizer, right?
	Okay.
	I'm not saying it's impossible.
	I don't know.
	But what I'm saying is that don't confuse your ease.
	And I say ease very loosely.
	I know it was hard as hell, right?
	But don't confuse your ease of escaping the mindset with what would happen to your mom if she...
	Right?
	And what would happen to her marriage?
	And what would happen to her social circle and all of this, right?
	The strange thing is my dad isn't particularly religious.
	He sort of just, to me, it seems as though he just goes along with it to make her happy.
	So, I could probably envision that their marriage may get a lot better if she did well.
	Okay, so it's her social circle, right?
	Yeah, okay.
	But I mean, that's fairly significant, right?
	And I mean, it generally is matriarchal, right?
	The virus is past long matriarchal.
	So it's not uncommon for the woman to be much more religious than the husband, right?
	And that's just obvious, right?
	Because if you want to have a virus rub off on children, then you want those who have the most...
	I think that...
	That would be for the best.
	Now, if you...
	So you can either do this in a negotiated way, like an upfront, which has its risks and its advantages, but you can also do it in an implicit way.
	And the implicit way is that you simply stop responding to religious conversations.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	You're on the phone, she starts bringing up religion and so on.
	Oh, you know, I'm sorry, my food's almost ready.
	We'll...
	Or you change the subject.
	Or you say, I don't really feel like talking about this at the moment, maybe another time.
	And you just contain this sort of soft boundary setup.
	Okay.
	And, you know, she'll either get the message and back off or she'll escalate and you'll go to the first option where you have an explicit conversation about it.
	But it's a more gentle way, so to speak.
	It's a little less respectful.
	Yeah.
	But it's a way of also establishing softer boundaries.
	Okay.
	And it's weird because...
	I don't really know much about her childhood, and it's strange because her sister actually became a Jehovah Witness.
	So I don't know if it's something that they both experience as children that sort of led them to long for something such as religion.
	But yeah, she's a hardcore Jehovah Witness, and it's funny to me because my mom will, you know, all those Jehovah Witnesses, they're so silly, and they believe such stupid things, like only 130,000 People can get into heaven.
	They don't believe in blood transfusion.
	It's so stupid.
	But at the same time, you know, we believe in the talking snakes and the walking on water and all these other ridiculous things, right?
	So it's another strange thing that I have to deal with with my mother.
	Well, then that's natural, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, those crazy people over there.
	I mean, that's...
	That's natural.
	So, I mean, that would be my...
	And, you know, I would also really try and find out more about your mom's childhood.
	I think that's really important.
	I think we really do want to know our parents as well-rounded people as the full-on experience, right?
	I mean, my daughter is fascinated by my childhood.
	I mean, okay, I have to give her the general admission version, but she's fascinated because she's fascinated that I was a child.
	And I've always wanted to make that clear.
	I don't want to be this professional parent who was born six feet tall or whatever.
	And so really try to get to know your mom's history.
	I mean, what a fertile ground for discussion between children and adults, particularly adult children and their parents.
	What a great ground of discussion.
	I mean, what a sort of deep and powerful tide of history you can tap into by getting the sense of the patterns and so on, I think.
	I think that stuff's all really important.
	Now, as far as you want to save her, oh, how the roles have reversed, right?
	Personally, I would advise against it.
	There is – I don't believe that children have the capacity to really change their parents.
	Okay.
	Now, I mean, this is under the subset of nobody has the power to change anyone.
	Mm-hmm.
	Right?
	It's like saying, I can walk up to you, Matt, and I can make you give me a handshake.
	I can't.
	I can stick my hand out.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And maybe you'll shake it and maybe you won't, right?
	But I can't make you give me – I can grab your hand, but it's no longer a handshake.
	Then it's just a salt, right?
	I can't make you give me a handshake.
	I can't make a woman want to make love to me.
	Right.
	Now, I can act in ways that I hope are enticing.
	I can do my dance of the seven veils with a grapefruit on my head, at least that's the way it's raised.
	But I can, I can, right?
	Now, this is true of relationships as a whole.
	You can change what you're doing, and then you can ask other people for what you want, but you cannot improve the relationship, because the relationship is not yours, right?
	Right.
	It's like saying you can put two planets in proximity, but only one of them will affect the other with gravity.
	No, gravity is a shared thing, right?
	So you can change what you're doing, you can make requests, but you cannot change other people.
	Okay.
	Now, I think this is particularly true in a relationship with such disparate and historical authority as a parent-child relationship.
	I just think the humility is necessary to recognize that we cannot change our parents' behavior.
	We can change our behavior, we can ask, but we cannot change their behavior.
	We cannot improve the relationship.
	This doesn't mean the relationship cannot improve if they choose to respond in a positive way to our requests and so on.
	But we cannot improve the relationship.
	Again, I sort of want to be – it's an important distinction.
	And people who think that that's possible can try it on a much smaller scale by, say, if you're in college, you can attempt to turn a Marxist into a capitalist who's a professor.
	And if people do not feel that that's very possible, well – or a capitalist into a Marxist, if you want – Because there's an authority there, right?
	And that authority is nothing compared to the historical authority of parents and children.
	To be schooled by your children, I don't know.
	I mean, I guess it's theoretically possible.
	I guess there's some cases where I've heard of it occurring.
	But it's, you know, you can't save her.
	You can't change her.
	Okay, yeah, okay.
	I mean, you can continue to give her these arguments and so on, but...
	What happened with you was you simply got exposure.
	I think that you're talking about the first Zeitgeist movie where they're talking about, you know, Jesus is a metaphor for the seasons and sun and all that, right?
	Yeah.
	But you were like one exposure to a different way of thinking and you were off to the races, right?
	Yeah.
	That's generally how it works.
	You know, some people see a crack in the wall and they take their nails off getting through it, right?
	Yeah.
	Other people see a crack in the wall and just stuff things into it, right?
	Yeah.
	And so I would recommend not pursuing that, especially since it hasn't worked yet, right?
	In fact, it's only...
	Because what is causing it to happen is her defenses to reinforce, right?
	Because you give...
	And I was really quite excited when you were saying that you saw this thing about...
	Gay marriage and Leviticus, and maybe we didn't take it in context at the time, and your mom was like, oh my goodness, we've been wrong all this time, right?
	I was like, oh my god, where's the story going?
	And it's like, oh, runs back to the priest, and then he gives her the answer, and now that was closed, right?
	Yeah.
	So, I would not...
	I think that your relationship will deteriorate significantly if you start playing this game of you trying to change her and her blocking it.
	I know it's not a game, I don't mean to trivialize it, but I think that's going to lead to a pretty fundamental split.
	Okay.
	Alright, well I didn't want to take up the entire show, but I really appreciate the feedback.
	Yeah, look, I hope that you guys, I don't know, I mean because I haven't dealt with this really, but I hope that You and your mom can have some sort of relationship outside of religion, which is valued you both.
	I think that's great.
	I don't know how well and blah, blah, blah, but I just wanted to sort of make it.
	And listen, thanks for your honesty.
	Thanks for your story.
	I really appreciate you sharing it.
	It's a very powerful story, and I really appreciate that.
	And I really, really wish you the best.
	And I also just wanted to end up by just really saying, for what it's worth, how much I absolutely admire you.
	What you've taken on.
	I mean, this is huge.
	You know, the cycle stops with you and incredibly well done.
	Yeah, okay.
	Thanks a lot.
	You're welcome.
	Okay.
	Ooh, everybody wants to be focused.
	Sorry about that.
	Everyone else, we can go over if we need to, but let's move on.
	And we'll do our best.
	We have four more people today, so...
	Next up today, we have Bodhi.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, ma'am.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Yes, sir.
	Man, yes, sir.
	So, um...
	I was thinking I wanted to talk about procrastination.
	And I know you've dealt with this topic a bunch.
	I've listened to the podcast I could find on it.
	Um...
	But, so...
	Like, I'm 20 now.
	And I've been on school my whole life.
	Raised non-religious.
	And...
	I have a real issue with procrastination.
	Like, um...
	No, you see, you're not allowed to talk about that.
	No, you see, homeschooling has to solve all problems.
	You can't talk about that.
	We're not allowed to talk.
	I'm sorry, go ahead.
	Just kidding.
	Yeah, I figured for some variety I'll do a homeschooling call that's not about the perfect childhood or whatever.
	So, you know, I was never...
	Okay, so you're 20, you've got your fifth Pulitzer, and you're having trouble with your sixths.
	Is that right?
	So we're just procrastinating about getting your next Pulitzer.
	I'm having trouble making my tenth million, so...
	I hate that.
	That tenth million is a bitch, I'm telling you.
	I've already got nine.
	That's a real hurdle.
	Yeah, I can step off this ledge.
	Anyway, go ahead.
	I was never really disciplined.
	I was never...
	You know, never spanked or anything like that.
	I was never really healed at, except a couple times.
	Like, I would beat up on my sister a lot.
	Not in, like, a really bad or mean way, just kind of, like, playing with her, and then she didn't like it, and I didn't stop, like, when she wanted me to.
	I'd bring in, like, another couple minutes, and then, you know, the parents would get a little annoyed or whatever.
	And, like, so once I... I'm just holding my forehead here.
	Caller-provoking-massive-brother-issues.
	Must continue.
	Forehead.
	I think that's pretty good.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, so I was, like, sent to my room, like, a couple times for just, like, an hour.
	But that was really it.
	And so most of my childhood, I just, like, I watched, mostly just watched TV until my parents got me a video game station.
	You know, like, I got a Nintendo 64.
	Wait, your homeschooling consisted mostly of watching TV? Yeah.
	You must have learned a hell of a lot about the artificial problems of pretty people during the day.
	I just wanted to point that out.
	And the real problems of not-so-pretty people on Oprah and Dr.
	Phil.
	But anyway, so this was like total unschooling where you didn't even have much of a drive to learn much of anything, right?
	Yeah, it was mostly just cartoons.
	I love SpongeBob.
	I don't think that what I was describing was much different, but okay, go on.
	Yeah.
	And then I got a game console, and I played that for a couple of years pretty much nonstop.
	And, you know, this is interspersed with hanging out.
	It's considered college for you, right?
	It's like, Mom, I've graduated from the high school of cartoons.
	I need to go to the college of video games.
	Okay, you're just provoking everyone who doesn't believe in unschooling right now.
	This is what happens if you do video games.
	Okay, anyway, go on.
	I'm kind of highlighting the boring parts.
	It's interspersed with all my friends were in school, so I only get to hang out with them on the weekends.
	And so during the week, sometimes my dad would take me and my sister to this local farm, and we'd volunteer and hang out all day and do that kind of thing.
	But other than that, I pretty much just played video games all the time.
	And then I got a computer when I was 12 or 13 or something like that, and I played World of Warcraft for the next five or so years.
	You know what?
	I tell you, back in the day...
	Oh, I love saying this.
	Oh, 20.
	Back in my day!
	Back in my day!
	I say snapping my suspenders and whittling something because I can't get it up anymore.
	But anyway, back in the day, computers sucked so much that if you wanted to play a game, you had to make a game.
	Right?
	I mean, like I remember making Missile Commander with ASCII characters.
	I mean, and making my own Zork game.
	Oh, that doesn't mean anything to you.
	But back in the day, when you got a computer, I mean, they sucked.
	They couldn't do anything.
	They didn't have like 3D, massive multiplayer, immersive graphics, you know, Dolby surround sound.
	I mean, they just sucked.
	I mean, the first computer I worked on had 2K of memory, not enough to do much of anything.
	And so, yeah, I mean, so you could make games and share games, and that was kind of cool.
	But now...
	I mean, the barrier to entry is so high that, I mean, what are you going to do?
	Program CRM databases for fun?
	No.
	So I just wanted to sort of point that out.
	It's changed a little bit from when I was a kid, but anyway.
	Well, there's some good indie game development out there.
	But, like, I bought a...
	My parents bought me a computer for, like, $500 at Walmart with, like, the monitor and everything, and it lasted me for, like, five years.
	So it just...
	Yeah, it's pretty cool.
	But, yeah.
	So...
	Let's see.
	When I was 17, I finally got my license...
	I had put that off for a year because I could have gotten it when I was 16.
	I could have got my learner's permit driving in when I was 15 and a half, but I didn't get my license.
	I got mine when I was 32.
	Yeah.
	So I was 17 and a half, and then I ended up getting a job, and I worked there until last year.
	And, yeah.
	So, oh, I also interspersed with the video gaming and hanging out with my friends on the weekend.
	I also, you know, I'd go to the comic shop.
	Um...
	And yeah, I was one of those nerds.
	I would go to the comic shop and play Magic the Gathering card games and MechWarrior tabletop and that kind of stuff.
	And it's actually interesting.
	The first time I ever experienced physical violence was I was probably 11 or 12.
	And I was just sitting at a table playing cards with this guy.
	And I didn't know what his cards did.
	And I barely know how to play the game.
	So I just went there to hang out with people.
	And I go to flip his card around because it's facing him so I can see what it is.
	And he just slaps my hand and tells me really hard and tells me not to do that.
	So I kind of just got up from the table and went outside and I started crying.
	And I called my mom and asked her to come pick me up That's about the only physical violence I've ever experienced.
	I didn't talk to my parents about it though, which is interesting.
	So the issue I'm having is that I feel like I really need to get my GED. I don't have that yet.
	I don't know algebra.
	I haven't studied it myself.
	I like math.
	And I like using Khan Academy.
	But sometimes it's just really hard to get myself started.
	And then once I get started, I'll do it for two hours in a row or three hours or something and just keep doing math problems.
	And I love it.
	But it's just hard to get started on it.
	Well, why?
	Why should you get started on it?
	Give me the case as to why you shouldn't keep procrastinating.
	Okay, so I think a GED will make it a lot easier to get a job.
	Why do you want a job?
	Let's see.
	I want to pay off my car.
	Bought a car from my parents' friends.
	And I've paid off a portion of it, but I'd like to pay off the rest of it.
	And how much do you owe on the car?
	It's like $1,600.
	Oh, shit.
	I mean, just get a damn paper route.
	Work that for a couple of months, you'll pay it off.
	Well, I'm kind of living in a semi-ghetto at the moment.
	I'm not sure I want to do that, so...
	But, uh...
	No, seriously, I mean, you can get some kind of job and just pay off, and, you know, maybe you can upgrade a little bit, but...
	I mean, you...
	I'm just playing devil's advocate here, right?
	But why...
	I mean...
	Yeah, I've applied to one place in four different positions, like a high-class hotel, and I'm looking...
	sort of looking for other jobs, but, um...
	So, let's see.
	I want to pay off my car.
	I want to save some money to go to college.
	And I'd like to get my GED and learn algebra so that I know if engineering would be the right area for me to study.
	Because I don't want to go to college unless it's something like maybe computer science or something to do with engineering.
	Just so the student loan reimburses...
	Yes, but why?
	Why do you want any of these things?
	So why do you want to be an engineer or a computer scientist?
	Like, why?
	What's the purpose?
	I think it'd be an interesting field of study, and...
	No, you don't.
	No, you don't.
	Because if you thought it was going to be an interesting field of study, you'd be studying it already, right?
	Yeah.
	I guess so.
	I'm just, you know, again, just being blunt devil's advocate here, right?
	I'm just going with the empirical facts, right?
	So, well, yeah.
	So...
	I was going to say I want to travel, but I don't know if that's really the case either, actually.
	I'm pretty sure I want to be financially secure.
	Sure, everybody wants to be financially secure.
	Everybody wants to lose weight, but you know...
	It's getting there.
	That's the challenge, right?
	I have plenty of things I want to do.
	I want to start my own business.
	I don't really like working for other people.
	And I feel like a degree in engineering or computer science would help me have a base.
	No, no, no.
	See, you're referencing your desires without any empiricism, right?
	If you wanted to start your own business and you're 20, you'd have started your own business already.
	Right.
	I'm not saying you don't, right?
	I'm just saying that If I wanted to do that.
	The first thing to figure out what you're interested in is not to go through a list of nice-to-haves, but to look at, you know, like, I'd like to have six-pack abs.
	I mean, I've seen Adam Kokesh running slowly up a hill with his shirt off.
	In fact, I see it very often in my nightly dreams, in slow motion, you know, with lots of bolero playing in the background.
	But I also don't want to work out three hours a day, right?
	So, yes, I would like, if I could snap my fingers, to have super sexy abs.
	I mean, I put out a video recently titled, I Want to Make Love to Stefan Molyneux, which I could absolutely say with certainty.
	And, you know, the number of times Adam Kokesh's name came up in the comments was entirely too depressing.
	But natural.
	He's a sexy guy.
	So, yeah, I mean, I could say, well, I would like Ebbs.
	I would like a Mohawk.
	You know, I would like a Lamborghini.
	But none of these things mean anything.
	What you have to do, first of all, is look at the empiricism.
	Of what you're doing.
	I mean, and that doesn't mean that's all you'll ever do, but you have to start with what is before you get to what could be, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So let's go back to your teenage years.
	All right.
	It sounds like the script of your teenage years was written by like a gay porn director.
	I don't mean that you're gay.
	But what I'm saying is that it's like Where the Girls Aren't.
	It's like the name of your script for your teenage years, right?
	It's like, well, I was doing a lot of World of Warcraft gaming, and then I went to the comic book store, and then I went to co-play Magic the Gathering, and was there Warhammer involved?
	Was the graduate crack of Warhammer involved?
	No, I've never played Warhammer.
	It's too expensive.
	What's so expensive?
	Is it the figurines and stuff?
	Yeah, the figurines.
	It's like the most expensive tabletop game to play, I'm pretty sure.
	Did you do the completely cheap-ass Dungeons& Dragons to chess pieces?
	You know, I tried to play Dungeons& Dragons.
	I could never get a game going with anyone.
	Well, you know, the problem is, too, is that...
	The rendering graphics engine in Dungeons& Dragons sucks because there's no GPU acceleration in your brain.
	There's no DirectX 9 in your brain.
	It's just whatever you can picture in your idle moments.
	Until we can actually put quad-core NVIDIA chips in our frontal lobes, I think D&D is going to lose out to World of Warcraft every time.
	Maybe the Google Glasses will be upgraded to the planet.
	Yeah, right.
	No, I actually did have some female friends, mutual friends of me and my sister.
	These two sisters that one of my mom's friends had had.
	We were friends with them for a while, a long time.
	And I also had a couple other female friends kind of just would hang out.
	You know, it's like there wasn't any real like, I don't know, they would come over for playdates or whatever.
	It wasn't, you know, and that didn't, I think that ended around like when I was 13 or 14 or something like that.
	Yeah, because I mean, that's what teenage boys most want is female friends.
	Right.
	Peck on the cheek, a nice distant hug.
	I think that's number one.
	Sorry, I forgot to mention that I've been overweight for most of my life.
	Since I was probably like 10, 9, 10, something like that.
	What happened?
	Were you more of a lean kid or did you always have a tendency that way?
	I think when I was younger, like a toddler or something, but maybe it was younger than when I started bulking up, like maybe six or seven.
	It's really hard for me to figure out where stuff is in my timeline.
	Well, don't you have photos?
	I probably do.
	I haven't looked at them, though.
	You should.
	I would suggest trying to figure out something in your life.
	One of the things that I've thought about in terms of contemporary childhood is that it's heavily monitored.
	Everyone has video cameras and they're all taking pictures of their kids and filming them all the time.
	I like it.
	It's a surveillance state.
	It's like how shoplifting goes down when there's video cameras around.
	I like that there's lots of cameras around childhood these days.
	I think that's a good thing.
	Anyway, so what do you think happened when you started to bulk up?
	Do you think that anything in particular happened that may have changed your level of happiness or anything?
	Nothing I can think of.
	I think it was similar close to the time when I started watching a lot of TV. Yeah, for sure.
	Other than that, I really don't know.
	TV and video games have disconnected mental activity from physical activity.
	That's a big problem.
	Anyway, what I get a sense of...
	This is just my opinion, and your experience is the key here, but I just got a sense of, you sound kind of under-parented.
	You talk about your teenage years and so on, and especially the overweight thing.
	To me, when I see overweight kids, the first thing I think of is under-parenting.
	In other words, where are the parents and why aren't the parents noticing that the child is gaining weight and why aren't the parents figuring out what to do and why aren't they sitting down with the kid and why aren't they encouraging better behavior and so on, right?
	I mean, I don't mean better, like moral, but just better diet, nutrition, exercise, blah, blah, blah, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	If my kid is overweight and is going to all-male hangouts that don't involve bathhouses and not getting involved in any kind of romantic possibilities as a teenager, then that would be something that, as a parent, I would need to be very much alert to.
	Because, I mean, you don't want to be...
	Getting into your 20s with your V-card unpunched.
	I mean, you know, that sounds kind of coarse, and I don't mean necessarily whatever, right?
	But I mean, dating, definitely.
	Your R, your romance card unpunched or whatever.
	And so, I get a sense of under-parenting.
	And you also said that you didn't talk about it with your mom when you got into the little altercation at the store.
	Yeah.
	So can you tell me about the level of parental guidance and involvement you've been receiving over your life?
	Let's see.
	So my dad was a stay-at-home dad.
	He'd worked from home for my early childhood.
	And my mom usually worked off-site.
	well out of the house I guess guidance Okay, so let me just ask a question.
	It's hard to think of, I'm sorry.
	Okay, so did your parents talk to you about weight gain or about being overweight?
	You know...
	Not really.
	It was kind of like, you know, when they would make dinner or something.
	And it was like, you know, a filling dinner or something.
	It's like, you know, pasta or something like mac and cheese or, you know, like spaghetti and meat sauce or something.
	They would say, you know, like, well, not always.
	A lot less recently.
	But back then, yeah.
	Sorry, just to interrupt.
	Are your parents overweight?
	No.
	No, my dad has always been skinny as a twig, kind of.
	And my mom has kind of like hourglass figure, but she's not really...
	I wouldn't say she's overweight, you know, maybe five or ten pounds or something.
	And my sister has never been.
	She's always been in great shape.
	But she rides horses, so...
	Right.
	Okay.
	So, when you understand, right, I mean, preparing your children for success in the world is, I mean, one of the main goals as a parent.
	And obviously, being overweight, tragically, I mean, rightly or wrongly, it significantly reduces your opportunities for dating, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	I'm really insecure, really self-conscious.
	Yeah.
	And so, and of course, it's bad for your health to be overweight in your teens, right?
	It significantly raises chances of heart disease, and I'm not trying to freak you out, I'm just, as far as I know, right?
	No, I know, for sure.
	So, if it's harmful to you socially, if it's harmful to your confidence, if it's harmful to your health, if it's harmful to your capacity for dating, romance, and so on, Then wouldn't, I mean, in an ideal world, wouldn't parents prevent it?
	Like, oh, you know, gaining a little bit of weight, let's sit down and figure out what's going on.
	You said that your dad was a stay-at-home dad, and he worked from home.
	So did you have a fair amount of unsupervised time?
	Yeah, he worked from home for the first few years, and then my parents bought a business about eight or nine years ago, I think.
	And so he did all the books and stuff.
	So yeah, it was mostly unsupervised time, I would say.
	And was it like the TV babysitter kind of thing?
	I don't know if it was that so much, because we did go out and go to that local farm, and we would go to homeschooling groups and that kind of thing.
	And then the time in between, there wasn't any real studying or anything like that.
	It was mostly just, I was just watching TV, or I watched TV with my dad.
	I guess it kind of is.
	Yeah, I mean, look, to be honest, I always hate that phrase because it sounds like I'm now going to switch tack, to be honest with you.
	But TV is a great temptation for parents.
	Because, I mean, all parents need to get things done.
	And TV is like this great temptation because, you know, it's this great electric black hole that will swallow up your children's attention for a fairly indefinite amount of time.
	I mean, it's not discipline for my daughter, it's discipline for me.
	Like, I need to make sure that we do stuff that's not TV-based for most of the day.
	But it is tempting, right?
	I mean, so, for me, it's like, well… I could write this article, or I could do this important thing, and my daughter could just watch, you know, 20 minutes of TV or whatever, or I can play Candyland or Hungry Hippo for the 12,000th time, right?
	And as a parent, of course, you have a life outside of being a parent, and you want to have the intellectual stimulation and so on.
	So, it's a great temptation to have the all-seeing eye of Sauron, of look...
	Your kids or, you know, hand an iPad or something like that.
	And so it is, but it also tends to be one of these things that is, it separates parents and children, I think, if overused.
	So, I mean, so you say you'd sit down and watch TV with your dad.
	Now, when you're, you know, my daughter wants to watch a show or whatever, we'll talk about the show.
	Oh, they're doing this.
	Oh, what do you think of that?
	So it becomes something we can talk about.
	But if she's watched a couple of shows that I haven't, I can't really...
	Oh, what did you watch?
	Oh, I watched this.
	But we can't really talk about it much.
	I took her to the science center the other day, and we just had a great day.
	It was so much fun.
	Because we could do stuff that we could really talk about, and then we could talk about it afterwards, and I could talk about some of the physical principles involved in what she was doing, and she could say, yes, but I just like it when the paper goes flying through the air, or whatever.
	But I get a sense that you did not get a lot of proactive guidance, that your parents were very hands-off.
	And I don't mean that they avoided you or whatever, but in terms of real connection, Because your teenage years sound kind of drifty to me, and not personally connected to someone in a very real way.
	And again, tell me if I'm wrong.
	I mean, just going by what you're saying and my thoughts about it, but I want to defer, of course, to your experience with just the final arbiter.
	No, I would say that's ringing bells with me, and I had never considered that, really.
	Children do need a lot of guidance.
	I mean, nature makes them helpless for a reason.
	Nature makes them helpless and dependent because they have to adapt to whatever crazy culture they're in so they don't get killed.
	That's the general historical thing.
	But children need a lot of guidance, a lot of nudges here and there, right?
	And course corrections are much easier earlier on than later, right?
	If you're two degrees off when you sail from Lisbon to New York, you'll end up half a continent away, right?
	But if you just course-correct it at the beginning, it's very easy, right?
	Just, oh, two degrees to the left.
	There we go.
	Now we get to New York.
	And you can't be raised on video games.
	You can't be raised by television.
	You can't be raised by other people who have that similar disconnection.
	I mean, the fantasy world is vivid because...
	The personal world is lackluster.
	Why would you prefer video games and television to talking with your parents or to, you know, getting help from your parents or whatever, right?
	It's because the fantasy world is colorful because the personal world is monochrome.
	There's more stimulation from TV and video games than there is from connection with those around you.
	Now, I understand that video games in particular are designed by crack addicts.
	I mean, they really...
	Oh, one more thing.
	Oh, one more level.
	I get it.
	I mean, so I'm not saying it's easy to compete with these mediums as a mere mortal who only has a pulse and a brain.
	But it is...
	I think it's really important to understand Dan, I would say it's not so much procrastination that would be the challenge to deal with, but a lack of guidance, a lack of preparation for the adult world, a lack of connection with people around you, a lack of social skills, a lack of romantic skills, a lack of personal care skills, like nutrition and exercise.
	A lack of life skills like planning skills and so on.
	These all need to be layered in very early on to be easiest, right?
	And it's tough to fill them in later.
	You can do it.
	You could do it.
	Just like you can lose weight when you're 20, but it's a whole lot easier to not gain weight when you're 8, right?
	Right.
	And so I don't think that the problem...
	I certainly wouldn't personalize the problem, but...
	To me, it's the difference between...
	A satellite that's in orbit and a satellite that's broke orbit and is just kind of wandering in between the depths of the stars, right?
	It seems to me that you've been sort of rudderless or unguided or unprepared for a significant number of adult things, which is why you have this lack of connection between, you know, I'd like to start my company.
	Maybe I'd like to be an engineer.
	But these are all idle speculations.
	And I don't mean that you can't achieve them or you shouldn't have them.
	Who knows, right?
	I'm sure you can achieve them, right?
	Obviously very intelligent.
	You have great verbal skills, but I just feel that there's a gap in guidance.
	And if there has been an absence of guidance, of feedback, of course corrections over the course of your life, and particularly over the course of your teenage years, then you are going to face adult life significantly underprepared.
	But tell me what, I mean, if I'm doing anything other than talking to myself, I mean, does this make any sense?
	Is this close to me?
	Is this wave-based?
	No.
	Yeah, I can't.
	I don't think I can really disagree with anything you're saying.
	Yeah.
	There are other things I didn't mention, like...
	My dad has a temper thing.
	He'll get angry really easily and kind of burst out.
	And then...
	And then kind of be passive-aggressive about it for anywhere from a few minutes to a few days sometimes.
	It's not a very constant thing, but he'll get angry with my mom really easily over stupid little crap.
	I remember one time we were packing up the truck to go to my aunt and uncle's Which is like four hours away.
	And the truck was packed full and my mom brought this cooler out.
	And they started getting into it.
	For some reason, my dad was angry because she didn't have the cooler out already because he couldn't put in the plan for packing the truck or whatever, and I just got so exhausted, I just said, you know, just shut up.
	I'll put the cooler under my feet.
	It's not a big deal.
	And my dad's like, you shut up.
	I don't think he would admit.
	I don't know.
	Yeah, no.
	No, I got it.
	I got it.
	Right.
	Yeah, so...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	There's also...
	I just want to mention this real quick.
	My dad used to be a carpenter, and he would want me to help him do projects around the house and stuff.
	And when I say help, it kind of means he would want me to sit there and hand him tools and not really let me do anything or explain to me what he was doing.
	So I was just bored out of my mind all the time.
	And then...
	And then when I'd be bored and not paying attention and walking around and kicking rocks and stuff, you'd get annoyed because I wasn't paying attention or helping him or whatever.
	So kind of like an impossible situation, right?
	I'm not engaged in what I'm doing, but I can't not pay attention to what I'm not engaged in, right?
	Yeah.
	Concentrate on this television that's not on.
	Wait a minute.
	Right.
	Right.
	Yeah, so, I mean, I think those are important things to consider.
	But, yeah, I mean, obviously, I always recommend talking to a therapist about these kinds of things.
	I think that's important.
	But I think, you know, it may be worthwhile sitting down with your parents and talking to them about, you know, I feel a little unprepared.
	I feel like I'm not moving ahead in my life in the way that I wanted.
	That I want to and so on, and I don't like my weight and so on.
	And, you know, I'm just wondering why, you know, when I started to gain weight, did you guys notice?
	Did you think I should or shouldn't?
	I mean, I feel like I, you know, just things just kind of happened, you know, without a lot of...
	I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but whatever it is that you sort of think or experience, I think that...
	No, yeah, definitely, definitely.
	And I actually, I have your five book deal, and so I've read through...
	On Tyranny, yeah.
	And UPB, and I just finished RTR a couple days ago.
	And my mom just read The Tyranny, yeah.
	On Truth, The Tyranny of Illusion.
	Right, right, right.
	And my dad read all the...
	The Everyday Anarchy and stuff, and he read UPB. I'm trying to get him to read RTR. My mom wants to read RTR. My dad's a libertarian type.
	I'm not sure if he's full ANCAP or not.
	Give him some time.
	It's a step.
	It's quite a step.
	Certainly with your mom, at least you can sit down and have a conversation.
	If they didn't know what they didn't know, I guess that's something to start discussing.
	I would not take these things as personal deficiencies, obviously, but there's some people that are just looking in the chat window having trouble with what I call course correction or guidance or whatever, but it's like coaching.
	We don't want to reinvent the wheel.
	When we're people, right?
	I mean, there's ways to learn how to do gymnastics that will not get you injured or at least minimize that opportunity.
	And coaching is very important.
	I guess if we've had negative experiences with authority or bad coaches or bullies or whatever, then maybe people think I'm restricting the child's freedom or whatever.
	No, I mean, you're actually facilitating the child's desires.
	You're facilitating the child's desires.
	If the child doesn't know how to turn the television on and you teach the child how to turn the television on, That's coaching, right?
	It's helping the child to gain the skills that the child needs to achieve what the child wants in an efficient way.
	We don't let children invent their own language, right?
	We teach them the words for things.
	It's coaching.
	So it's really just teaching life skills and helping the child to extend the concept of cause and effect and so on, right?
	So...
	I mean, the good news, caller, is that your brain is not done developing.
	You've still got another half decade to go.
	So you can make changes now that will be, I think, very positive and easier than if you were, say, 30.
	But I think that when we have trouble moving forward, we need to go back.
	We need to go back.
	We need to circle back and figure out.
	I mean, if we're trying to get someplace in the woods and we're supposed to be on some easy path and it keeps getting thicker and boggier and worse and more rocky and so on, then we have to go back.
	We have to go back, find the path, right?
	And so everything you talked about was in terms of, oh, I want to get my GED, go to college, all about the future.
	But if you're unprepared for the future, I think you need to go back, circle back.
	And figure out what you're missing to go forward.
	Otherwise, you're going to keep plunging on and I think you're going to keep feeling like you're deficient in some manner.
	And it's going to be personalized to you rather than you just didn't get some life skills that you needed to get and you can still get them, right?
	But that would be my suggestion.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I agree.
	Thank you.
	That's really great advice.
	I like that.
	You're very welcome.
	And yeah, drop me a line.
	Let me know how it goes.
	As always, I always like to hear how things are going.
	And I do give your parents my congratulations for being open to these ideas.
	I think that's fantastic.
	Yeah, great.
	Okay.
	Thank you, Stefan.
	You're welcome.
	All right.
	Next up, we have Justin.
	Hey, guys.
	Can you hear me?
	Yep.
	Okay, cool.
	So I guess my main topic is going to be the relationship I'm in now and sort of how it has to tie in with a little bit of things about my past that have been heretofore unexamined until the last several months.
	Tony.
	I'm nervous and it's a little kind of emotionally trying for me because it's one of those situations where, to give you an analogy, I had a cat that I really, really loved.
	It was really one of those once-in-a-lifetime type pets where you just bond with it really well.
	And she had a disease that she still could have lived with it, but it would have been insufferable.
	But she still would have been alive and I had to choose between my My selfishness of keeping the cat alive for me versus letting the cat go because she had a disease called megacolon where the colon doesn't form debris anymore.
	It just kind of gets stuck in there and doesn't move out or anything, and so I decided to put her down.
	Emotionally, I'm in a similar situation with this woman I've been dating for the past seven years.
	I'm moving more towards a point where I value myself more, I respect myself more, and I'm starting to recognize what I value and respect in other people more.
	And at first, to be honest, I do have mild, control-free, sadistic tendencies when it comes to personal relationships.
	I've curved that a lot over the years, but Instead of – and I'm going to talk to her about this today – and instead of trying to approach it from a standpoint of – because like it's been said, it's really hard for people to change if they change at all without their own impetus.
	It's one of those things where she's a really close friend of mine too, and we would get along well without – Being together, it's one of those situations where we're really good friends, and we also happen to evolve into a loving relationship.
	But we've been seven years into it, and I've been thinking about moving in with her, and I'm hesitant about it for reasons that I've just recently figured out.
	And I don't just want to eject her from my life either because I don't think that's fair to either of us.
	But I don't think it's also fair for me to continue on as things are because she doesn't exhibit the things that I value any longer.
	You know what I mean?
	Well, like for example, she's getting heavier.
	She's gaining more weight to the point where she has to buy clothing and she doesn't like it and she tries and tries to stop it but she seems powerless to stop it.
	And I've talked to her about this before but Still, it continues on.
	She has self-esteem issues.
	Knowing enough about her past, I just don't know where they came from, and she's not sure either.
	One of the biggest things that I value is communication, and she just doesn't communicate.
	It's literally to the point where I'll ask her a question point-blank to her face, and I get zero response.
	That really triggers...
	It makes me sad and angry at the same time, and it's disrespectful because you ask someone a question, you expect some response.
	Even if it's just, I don't know what to say about that right now, let me think about it and I'll get back to you.
	But I can't trust her to get back to me because she doesn't.
	I have to chase her, it feels like, to give me a response, and I don't understand.
	I just don't.
	Right.
	But in the same context, if we were to talk about something that doesn't approach anything about her issues or anything, like World of Warcraft, for example, or whatever else interests her that we share a mutual interest in, she'll go on a mile a minute about it.
	But when it comes to her stuff, it's locked down.
	And me being a bisexual, I'm also attracted to men.
	As dickish as it may sound to me, I did say to her, you know, because she did say once to me that, you know, I don't feel as if I'm good enough for you, and I said to her, well, you know, to be honest, partly you aren't because you don't have all the parts, you know, physically speaking.
	Mentally, you know, you're 80% there, but, you know, my entire adult life has been a constant evolution of moving from one phase of mental development to another, and now I'm coming across another, and She's not moving with me, and that sucks.
	Right.
	And I don't know what to do about it now, because it's not like she's ever done anything wrong to me or anything...
	I have to stick up for myself, but at the same time, there's nothing...
	It feels like she's dying of cancer, and there's not a damn thing I can do about it.
	Do you know what I mean?
	Yeah.
	And if I say, well, you're dying of cancer, and there's nothing I can do about it, and...
	But at the same time, I don't have the resources to put into you anymore, so I'm going to walk away now.
	I don't know what to do.
	Because I know if I tell her this stuff and date somebody else or introduce somebody else – I don't have anyone else right now, but let's just say it were to happen – she would stop calling and stop coming around, and that's not what I want either because we're still close friends.
	But the relationship is just like… stale and stagnant and I'm ready to move forward and she can't, it seems like.
	And I don't think there's anything I can do to help her.
	I don't.
	What would you say?
	Has she always been unwilling to discuss personal issues?
	No!
	And that's why I'm coming back to is it one of is it You know how sometimes it's said that you train how people react to you or respond to you by the way you are?
	And when I was first learning of how crappy some of the dynamics are in society and that there was nothing I could do about it, I got angry.
	There's all these problems.
	There's nothing I can do about it.
	I got angry, and that anger turned into raw, seething rage.
	And it just spurted out across everyone that dared cross my path, even more.
	Slightly.
	And she never got the brunt of it, but I wasn't the easiest person to speak to because I was so overly passionate, and sometimes that passion would just spill over into rage because I had things I didn't resolve emotionally back then.
	Is this what you mean by the mild sadism?
	Yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	It's particularly worse when a person opens up to me and allows me into their In my personal relationship area, I will – I don't anymore, and when I catch it, I pull it or I rein it in now, but I would automatically exploit weaknesses as a lesson to them.
	You shouldn't be this way because I can just easily exploit you, and I'm going to blah, blah, blah.
	I wouldn't say that, but that's what would go through in my mind after the fact now.
	I don't do it anymore, but I can catch it creeping up, and that's why I want to be very, very careful and very respectful when I have this conversation because I want – I mean it's going to be difficult no matter what's said or how it's said, but I want to help her be better because I know she wants to be better, but it's like she just can't for some reason just she doesn't know about.
	Right.
	Well, I mean, so if she has been open before, then it could just be that she doesn't feel particularly safe around you because of your recent history of...
	I think that's the case, yeah.
	Yeah, and so obviously pushing her on this is not going to make her feel safer or more secure.
	Can you tell me a little bit about your early childhood?
	My early childhood?
	From what little I remember of it, well, I can tell you that I didn't have a father because father and mother decided...
	It was just my mother that raised me along with my grandparents.
	And it was the usual ho-hum childhood.
	There was no abuse.
	There was no you're going to do this or else type of stuff that I can recall.
	Worst case, I could tell, was my mother being 19.
	She wasn't really prepared to deal with a child, so she We had her fumblings that we've spoken about before, and she's apologized for.
	She's like, I wasn't the best mother, was I? And I was like, no, you weren't.
	But, you know, you did what you did, and I turned out the way I turned out, and we're fine now.
	And we discussed these things.
	At least she was willing to discuss it, and she apologized.
	So you were born to a 19-year-old single mom with no dad?
	Dad tried.
	He was there, but he tried.
	But it didn't work out, because he was...
	Mother has this thing with guys where she'll take in men that are fundamentally broken to the point where they abuse themselves with vice, and then they turn around and abuse her.
	And that pattern started with Dad and then went on to all those others.
	So the majority of my childhood, the bad parts are mostly highlighted by Mother's string of shitty Ben.
	And how would your mother be abused by these men?
	Oh man, there was one guy that would near beat her to death.
	I was scared.
	There was one night, I was thinking about it now, I feel a little rageful towards the guy.
	I'd probably kill him if I saw him again.
	But she would just come home, be all nice to him, or vice versa, and he'd be in a drunken rage, and he would beat the ever-loving crap out of her non-stop.
	And there was one night that was really bad, and I was like a fat little chubby kid.
	And I shoved myself out of this window to run up to my grandparents to get them to come help because I didn't know what else to do.
	I was scared.
	Right.
	Well, you can't let it go on.
	I mean, that's part of my personality.
	When I see something is wrong, I at least have to point it out, I feel.
	But in that situation, a little eight-year-old is not going to go up against this gargantuan 200-pound, 6'1 man who is insanely rageful.
	Right.
	Now, I hope you won't...
	Are aware, or maybe you're not, but that you gave me some very contradictory information, which you may not be conscious of.
	Oh, did I? I may not be.
	Well, look, first of all...
	If you were pouring out to me ever so kindly.
	No, no, that's fine.
	Listen, first of all, I want to express unbelievable sympathy for what you experienced as a child.
	That's unholy.
	That is unbelievably wretched.
	As you say, to hear your mother...
	Almost being beaten to death or fearing that by a succession of shitty men is unbelievably horrifying and I just really, really want to express unbelievable sympathy.
	I mean, I'm fighting not to cry here just because I want to stay present to what you're telling me.
	You're going to get me choked up too.
	No, listen, this is unbelievably awful.
	What an incredibly terrifying and emasculating.
	I can still hear her screaming.
	It was, oh man.
	I don't doubt it.
	That's burned into your brain.
	And, of course, what an incredibly emasculating experience, because the first thing you want to do is protect your mother.
	Yeah, and I couldn't, except go get my big bad grandpa.
	You can't.
	And, you know, the murderous rage that you feel, you say you'd kill the guy if you saw him now, you feel you might.
	That is appalling experiences to have gone through.
	And I'm really just...
	That's so...
	Outside the norm that's, like, even the norm now, that's demonic.
	It's satanic.
	And I just really want to show, get you to understand, hopefully, that I sympathize with the horror and the fear and the rage of that.
	It's appalling.
	And, of course, it's terrifying for you because your mom keeps bringing these guys in and this keeps happening.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	He was the worst.
	She did learn a little bit after him, but he was the worst, man.
	Right.
	Right.
	I'm just...
	That is so terrifying.
	And that is so appalling.
	Listen, my mom did not make great choices with her boyfriends either, so I'm with you there, brother.
	It is just appalling.
	It's terrible.
	I'm fairly good with language, and I can't even come up with good words to experience this kind of terror.
	I mean, to have this kind of behavior modeled, to think that this has something to do with masculinity, to be powerless in this way, to be helpless, to see this happening again, even though you say it got better, it's a shitty thing to have to get better from.
	Oh, I know.
	I've learned that it has nothing to do with masculinity, but it's still...
	And listening and hearing you speak...
	I'm wondering if I've never really dealt with the helplessness that I felt from all that.
	Well, I'll tell you why I think you haven't.
	I'll tell you why I think you haven't.
	And I mean this in all sympathy.
	This is not finger-wagging.
	This is some unbelievable stuff to deal with.
	Get to a therapist.
	Call a therapist after this, right?
	Because you can't process this alone.
	This is too heavy.
	But listen, do you remember what you said when I asked you what your early childhood was like?
	Maybe.
	What did you say?
	I said it wasn't that bad.
	No, you didn't say it wasn't that bad.
	You said it was ho-hum, average, and there was no abuse.
	Right.
	There was no abuse to me.
	Sorry, you said I wasn't abused.
	Right.
	But you were.
	Yeah, I suppose I was.
	Right.
	I mean, if you see someone get hit by a train, you're not hit by a train, but it affects you.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	If your mother brings violent men, a series of violent men into your environment as a child, then that's abusive to you as a developing child.
	I'm not saying that your mom was like constantly trying to hurt you or anything like that.
	And also, I don't know if you see the connection between the woman that you're talking about who's gaining weight and your mother.
	I don't.
	Well, you are trying to save another woman that you can't save.
	Ah, okay.
	I do now.
	Gotcha.
	And these kinds of connections...
	Look, you're obviously fiercely intelligent.
	I mean, and very passionate.
	And obviously you're working to curb your manipulative tendencies and your sadistic tendencies, which I hugely respect.
	Hugely respect.
	Good for you.
	Yes.
	And there's no way, I think, that without...
	That you can make these connections and free yourself from some of this repetition.
	But if you say to a woman who says, I don't think that I'm enough for you, and you say, well, you're right, because you don't have a penis, that she's going to want to trust you with her innermost secrets and her most vulnerable areas.
	Right.
	Right, and that's a level of empathy and understanding that you're still working towards, right?
	Right.
	But I think you need to denormalize what happened to you as a child.
	It's outrageous.
	It's appalling.
	It's horrifying.
	I mean, you feared the murder of your caregiver.
	You feared...
	There were some close calls.
	Yes.
	And you know what?
	I'm telling you, you were right to feel that.
	And people don't know what happens when you uncork the genie of violence.
	Yeah.
	You know, like I was reading about...
	Some guy, you know, he just pushed a guy in the bar, the guy stumbled backwards, cracked his head on a table, and bled out on the bar floor.
	Right.
	All he did was push a guy.
	You don't know what's going to happen when you uncork violence.
	And so, the fact that you feared the murder of your mother and were helpless to prevent it is...
	I mean, this is unbelievably traumatic for a child to experience.
	It is a brutalization of all forms of security and trust and protection.
	And how is your mother supposed to protect you when she invites a potential murderer into her bed?
	Yeah.
	What were you talking about earlier when you were saying, don't make me choke up?
	Thank you.
	How far are those feelings?
	When you said you were having trouble finding the words, I was getting choked up just thinking about it.
	My memory is not the greatest.
	How far away are those feelings for you?
	They're right there.
	I haven't thought about that stuff because when I was going through my 20s, I formed this angry, hard shell with spikes on it.
	Anyone that got in It's hard to say.
	It's only hard for me to find the words.
	Just putting the two together, I'm just going to picture where this sadistic behavior came from.
	It's like I would sabotage relationships, whether they're friendships or closer, because I haven't fully denormalized and processed relationships.
	Yeah, look, I mean, look, the lesson you got was sex is death.
	Intimacy is death.
	Love is murder.
	I mean, you say that you formed this persona.
	Good Lord, no.
	This was an adaptive persona necessary based upon the experiences that you went through.
	You didn't just sort of wake up one day with a full, open, and peaceful heart and say, I think I will form this heart shell around myself and be spiky and angry and fear intimacy.
	No.
	You saw what intimacy led to.
	In the case of your mother, that intimacy was a form of suicide, right?
	You said about this woman who's gaining weight, it's like you have cancer, there's a suicidality to it.
	Well, this was sexuality for your mother.
	It sounds like, I mean, to invite people who beat you half to death as your lovers, I mean, my God, what an unbelievably toxic example to set for your children.
	Yeah, and we've talked about the history of that particular incident and that guy and the other ones too, and she had said that there's a part of her that she likes to take in things that she feel need help.
	She'll take in stray dogs and animals, but she's learned to curb it and control it because she just… Most people just don't have the resources to devote to that kind of just taking in every random thing.
	But she – I said to her, looking back on our history together, you would do that with your men.
	You'd take in these problem men because you felt sorry for them because she was talking to me about her current marriage.
	And she doesn't really want to be in it, but it's comfortable, and she had a chance to get out, but she didn't because – He's a savvy subcase, and she's a sucker for the savvy subcases.
	I said to her, well, you know, these savvy subcases almost led to your death when I was eight years old, and there's not a damn thing I could have done about it to help you even though I wanted to.
	But do you understand the pattern that you're trying to save this woman from her growing obesity?
	Yeah.
	And you're saying, I really want to save her.
	Right.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	It's her obesity.
	It's just an example of like...
	I don't know.
	It's like she wants to do better things, but she needs a – it's like – yeah, I follow what you're saying.
	I don't want to save her, save her, but at the same time, I just don't want to see her say she wants to do something and be helpless against it when losing weight is perfectly within the bounds of someone's control in most cases, I would think.
	No, look, I understand that.
	I understand that.
	But what I'm saying is that you feel this, and this is a vast improvement from your mother, right?
	I mean, this is huge progress, right?
	In that it's weight issues and ambition issues rather than don't hit me with a lamp issues.
	So whatever, I mean, this is huge improvements, right?
	But there's still an underlying pattern, right?
	I mean, that a lot of people who want to fix other people in the world are running away from their own brokenness.
	If I make this dog better, then I'm better.
	If I make this cat better, then I'm better.
	If I make this sick person better, then I'm better.
	I have value if I fix what is broken arises out of a brokenness that's being avoided.
	Right.
	So, rather than worry about this other woman's weight and her ambition traction, it's your history that needs to be examined.
	You're not in a fit state.
	To help others yet.
	And I mean this with sympathy and with respect for your desire to help other people.
	But there's a lot that you need to process.
	And now when you do process it, you will be of enormous value to the world.
	But I think in this instance, or in this circumstances, there's still a lot that remains unprocessed.
	And listen, I respect you enormously for having the courage to talk about these things.
	I also share...
	Your contempt for the culture that has let you go this long without anyone stopping you up and stopping you short and saying, listen, this is unbelievably traumatic.
	You need to get some professional help with this.
	This is some unholy, like, concentration camp stuff.
	Yeah.
	And I'm so sorry.
	I'm so sorry that it happened to you.
	I'm so sorry that it happened to you.
	I mean, I can feel it.
	My hands, I can feel my heart pulse in my hands, in my fingertips with what a terrifying...
	And destabilizing.
	Situation that was.
	I'm predicting.
	Hearing you bounce it back at me, I didn't put the two together like I did.
	I kind of just presumed I dealt with it.
	But, you know, I don't think I ever really did.
	Now hearing you and feeling what I'm feeling as a result.
	What are you feeling as a result?
	It's...
	It's hard to explain.
	It's almost like something fresh and raw has bubbled to the surface that was previously entombed behind something else.
	It's that weird butterfly, choky, teary type feeling you get in your gut and your face.
	Yeah, well described.
	I feel like a helium balloon of possibility is opening up in my chest, like blowing up, slowly, not exploding, but puffing up.
	Yeah.
	And I think that we're close to some real truth, some real helpful truth.
	So, listen, I'm going to just give you some – I hate to give advice to anyone.
	I normally just give you my opinion.
	But I'm going to tell you some very specific things right now.
	And I hope that you will listen.
	I hope that they will be helpful.
	Do not make any major life decisions while you're in this state.
	Because when this stuff bubbles up, the defenses will kick in and will urge you to do something to distract yourself.
	So don't suddenly find yourself moving in with this woman.
	Oh no, I won't, yeah.
	Okay, I'm just, don't suddenly find yourself quitting your job or going to get drunken in a bar fight or whatever it is, right?
	Don't find yourself suddenly going out and acting out sexually, right?
	So recognize that the defenses are there to protect you, but unfortunately the defenses have cut off the oxygen supply to your nature.
	It's like we put on armor to protect ourselves, but if we live in that armor too long, we turn into a ghost, and there's nothing inside the armor anymore.
	That's not the case with you yet, because that's why I'm asking how close these feelings are for you.
	And if it's like, well, it's like I'm looking at them on a screensaver from across the room.
	It's like, well, that's not good, but you can feel that, which means that you're alive in there, which is incredible.
	You kept that flame alive.
	But...
	Don't make any major decisions until you get yourself into the care of a therapist who knows how to deal with trauma, like significant trauma, like PTSD-style trauma.
	Okay.
	Ask for that specialty.
	It was warlike what you experienced as a child.
	In fact, it was bigger than war.
	War happens to an adult personality.
	And you usually have choices even before you go to war, which you don't have as a child, which you can go to jail or you can go to Canada or whatever, right?
	And even if you're in the army these days, you can try and get out.
	So what you experienced, in my opinion, as a child was war-like.
	It was the end of the world, not my mom got beaten.
	Because for a kid whose mom is in that kind of situation, it feels that way, right?
	It actually exactly felt that way.
	It's exactly what it felt like.
	Yeah.
	I mean, it's the world that could end.
	Your life is in danger.
	If someone kills your caregiver, it's usually because there's some horrible thing going on.
	And I'm telling you, historically, most times you'd kill a mom, you'd have to kill the kids too.
	I mean, the story of Conan didn't come out of nowhere, where if you don't kill the kid, the kid will come back and get you, right?
	Right.
	So after my mom is murdered, it will be me who's murdered, which is why you went out the window.
	Do you see what I'm saying?
	I do, yep.
	So this is why I'm saying it was incredibly awful that you feared for your life.
	And even if your mom was disabled, then, like, let's say that her legs were broken or her arm was broken, what would that mean to her capacity to provide for you?
	I'm talking about, like, when our genes were developing, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	10,000 years ago.
	You're screwed, right?
	She almost had her neck broken in that incident, that's for sure.
	Right.
	And then, not only is no one able to provide for you, but you then have to take care of a paralyzed mother, genetically that would be the end of you, right?
	So, it was a life-ending, a potentially life-ending event.
	And not just one.
	I know you say it got better afterwards, but a series.
	Less beating doesn't mean less danger.
	Right.
	Because anything can happen in a beating.
	A blood clot.
	Anything, right?
	Someone just falls the wrong way.
	Somebody just accidentally hits a nose into the brain.
	Sorry?
	Hearing you speak, she did mention something to me.
	It was about a week ago or so.
	We were talking about...
	I forget what we were talking about, but it came up.
	We were talking about my dad and how she was going to call him up.
	It was my birthday a few days ago.
	Yeah, that's how it started.
	She was going to call him up and ask her, why don't you ever call your son up on his birthday?
	That's a whole other topic.
	In summary, I said to her, it's okay.
	Dad and I, we had a talk about it.
	He apologized profusely.
	I expressed how I felt about his absence.
	And he's not really ever been a part of my life.
	I'm not a part of his.
	And we went on there, and we discussed it, and she mentioned in passing sort of, well, you know, your dad used to beat me.
	And I felt that little rage monster stop and say, say again?
	What do you mean?
	Did the 16-year-old dad beat you when I was pregnant with you?
	I'm like, so let me get this straight.
	My 16-year-old dad beat you when you were pregnant with me, and I said to her, what was your response to that?
	And she's like, I was pregnant six months or so, and I couldn't do anything but defend my babies as best I could.
	And they're starting to wonder if that's taking on the violence of these hugely aggressive men throughout the years was her way of trying to defend me.
	Sorry, her way of trying to what?
	Defend me.
	Because whenever it would happen, even though how small I was, particularly this one violent guy, the one episode that got me all choked up while I was talking to you and we were discussing earlier was when I was eight years old.
	And whenever it would happen, I would always try to intervene.
	Because who's going to hit a kid?
	That was my mindset when I was eight years old.
	Who's going to hit a young kid?
	I would always try to insert myself between the violence and her in some way by making a distraction, but she would always pull the ire of the beast away from me and back onto her and tell me to go back in my room, except that one night when I thought she was going to kick the can for good that time.
	That's when I shimmied out the window up to my grandparents.
	Yeah, look, I mean, I appreciate this, and look, I mean, trying to figure out the motives of your mom may be helpful at some point, but I think that you should not do it now.
	I think you should be focusing on your own experience.
	It's hard to, logically, it's hard to say I'm trying to defend my kid by bringing violent men into the house.
	Yeah, I don't know what really went through it.
	But I think it's really important to not focus on the motives of other people right now, but to focus on your own experience, your own original experience, your own outrage, shock, horror, anger, fear.
	And not worry about the motives of other people, the motives of the man, what was he doing and what was my mom doing?
	Forget about that.
	You need to focus on your own experience.
	Okay.
	And I hope that you will, I mean, I'd like to extract a promise, but I can't, right?
	I hope that you will call up someone and you need some help to process this.
	And you need some witness.
	Who's going to help you through the storms of these experiences?
	And my god, the strength you'll have on the other side will be astounding.
	I do have a friend who's a psychoanalyst.
	Has he never talked to you about any of this stuff?
	I've never brought it up.
	I've never brought it up.
	Well, maybe you can ask him for a referral for somebody who knows how to, you know, tell him what happened and say you want some help and get a referral.
	I mean, if he's a friend, maybe he can point you towards someone who's good.
	But you need this.
	You deserve this.
	You've earned this.
	And...
	I mean, I can't urge you strongly enough.
	I mean, I went through therapy and I didn't go through what you went through.
	And I just really want to express again, it's shocking beyond words that this happens in the world.
	Yeah.
	I know it does.
	I know it does.
	And you need to get more shocked about it.
	And I understand why you're not.
	I completely understand why you're not.
	And I sympathize with the reasons for it.
	But I think that that's where you need to get some help with this stuff, to denormalize it, to have a witness, to work through the feelings, to help hold you as these storms break loose and free, and you become free of them.
	Understood.
	I would certainly try.
	I'm going to try, I will.
	Now that it's been brought up, yeah.
	Good.
	Good for you, man.
	Good for you.
	Fuck, that's brave.
	You know, that's brave stuff.
	And good for you for wanting to help your mom.
	I mean, that's brave too.
	But this is a different kind of courage.
	This is the kind of courage that lays the foundation for a free and peaceful life, which I think will be free of these tendencies of manipulation, of exploiting weaknesses, of...
	As you say, the mild sadism and so on.
	You can be free of all of that.
	And you don't want that in your loved life.
	No, not anymore.
	And you don't want any of the stuff coming up.
	If and when you have kids, you don't want to be dealing with any of the stuff when you've got kids around and all that.
	I've decided not to have kids specifically because I wasn't...
	I had a vasectomy when I was 22.
	No kids for me.
	I was not stable as far as I'm concerned.
	I'm Not stable enough for kids.
	Right.
	I mean, those are reversible, and you never know, right?
	You never know.
	But so with the...
	I think it was wise to not have kids to now, but you never know what can happen for you.
	I mean, obviously, you're fiercely intelligent.
	Obviously, you have kept something alive within you that in many people would not have stayed alive, and that's to your incredible credit.
	And you're willing to think and talk about getting an appointment with a skilled professional in these areas, which shows...
	I mean, to me, that's real manliness.
	It's real manliness to say, I need some help with this.
	I want a life that is free of these dysfunctions.
	The abuse cycle stops with me, and I'm not going to be vain enough to pretend that I'm going to do it all by myself.
	Yeah, I was vain enough to make that pretension, but not now, not anymore, not in the last few months.
	Especially not now.
	Right.
	So...
	And the last thing I want to say is I really appreciate the trust that you showed in this show in talking about this stuff.
	I really, really appreciate that.
	That is some heavy stuff to talk about.
	I hope that I was helpful, but I really want to...
	Thank you for speaking so openly about this stuff and to being so present in the conversation.
	That is incredibly admirable.
	I mean, it's admirable in anyone, but particularly knowing what you've been through.
	I just really wanted to thank you for that.
	I don't take that lightly.
	Yeah, and I wanted to thank you in person, you know, and rather not just in an email or text, but I did want to thank you at least over Skype.
	For putting yourself after, because it was a lot of your material that helped me rekindle some of that little fire that never really died, but kind of stoked it a little bit.
	These things have been accelerating in process, and now that's what finally goaded me to call, because I'm not a trusting person, and I don't really know you, but you've put enough of yourself out there that I felt comfortable at least calling up and just throwing it on the table.
	And how was your experience of the conversation?
	Thank you for that.
	It was fantastic.
	I'd give you a hug, buy you dinner, wash your car, clean your bathroom.
	No, no.
	The only thing I want from you is the phone call to the therapist.
	That's all I care about.
	Take anything you're thinking of giving to me and give it to the therapist.
	That's the best thing that can happen for me from here.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	I've never even considered looking for a therapist.
	I wouldn't even know how to go about it, but I'll start with asking my friend to see what he says.
	Yeah, call him now.
	This is not something to procrastinate because your defenses have scattered right now because we've had this connection, but they will reform.
	Right.
	Because everyone thinks you have a breakthrough and, ah, look, I've talked about it, I felt it.
	No, this is like you startle, you know, you drive past the crows and they'll fly away and then they come back, right?
	Especially when there's the roadkill of history, right?
	So, you know, call your friend right now.
	Say, listen, I really would like to talk to a therapist who's specialized.
	Tell him a little about what...
	Thank you.
	No problem.
	More than my strong suggestion.
	And thank you.
	I think we better stop now.
	I am hungry.
	But thanks again.
	Thanks again to all the callers.
	I mean, these conversations are just fantastic.
	And it does remind me of something that the psychologist who wrote… The sociopath next door was saying that how tragic it is that so many people go through life so little listened to and how much really listening to someone and empathizing with someone can make a difference.
	And thank you, everybody, so much for what you bring to this conversation, to the openness, the honesty, the vulnerability, the human connection.
	You realize that this is modeling to Hundreds of thousands of people.
	You know, what a conversation could be.
	Nobody, of course, has to copy anything, but what a conversation can be and how much can occur in a short period of time if you really listen and really care.
	So, thank you everybody so much for these opportunities.
	I look forward to talking to you next week.

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