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May 20, 2012 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:30:25

2151 Freedomain Radio Sunday Call In Show 20 May 2012 - How to Get Your Kids to Do Their Chores!

Stefan Molyneux, host of Freedomain Radio, helps answer listener questions about parenting challenges. Also - why study the brain if you are interested in philosophy and changing the world? Finally, how to overcome loneliness and learn the little art of small talk.

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	Well, good afternoon everybody.
	It is the 20th of May 2012.
	Happy not so much with the winter anymore to those who live in the cold climates and happy heart of the sunrise furnace skin to those who live in the warm climates.
	I hope you're doing very well.
	So today I'm very pleased, excited and happy to have Well, I guess we can call her today, certainly the brains of the outfit.
	We have Lorette Lynn of UnpluggedMom.com who has come by and she's going to, I think as she promised me in the email, fix all parenting in the world.
	And she feels very confident because we have her only until 3pm.
	And so I feel that she's going to be able to do that.
	So bring your toughest parenting questions.
	And you really, really do want to check out her show at UnpluggedMom, M-O-M, not...
	M-U-M for those across the pond.
	UnpluggedMOM.com She's a very stimulating and challenging thinker.
	She regularly...
	Occasionally what happens when I'm playing with my daughter is I will be blowing up balloons.
	And particularly we have these little machines, little pumps, and they blow up helium balloons.
	And...
	I want the helium balloons to be about as large as a small gas giant planet, and my daughter wants them to not bang.
	And what happens is I put them over the nozzle, I pump them up with helium, and regularly they explode.
	This is quite often the case when I talk with Lorette, what happens to my mind.
	So I really wanted to thank her for that.
	Not that she's full of hot air.
	I think I'm bringing that to the table.
	So yeah, thanks Lorette so much for coming.
	Yeah.
	You're welcome, Stefan.
	I'm really happy to be here.
	You're making me laugh.
	I'm typically not a very humble person, but I'm feeling humble right now because it's a great compliment.
	So I really appreciate people who can do it.
	So I thank you for that.
	Well, the feeling's mutual, Stefan.
	Thanks.
	I mean, you've been a parent and to more children than I have, so definitely going to tip the head of expertise towards you.
	If you could sort of briefly describe some of the most exciting parenting challenges that you've met and hopefully vanquished, I think that would be of use to people.
	You know, it's funny that you should bring this up because I was actually just thinking about this recently.
	And I was thinking how there is no definitive answer for what is the right way to handle certain situation or what is the wrong way to handle a certain situation.
	Even though I have three kids and I will encounter very similar situations or even the same situation with each child, every time you encounter it with each different child and maybe even each different time, because you can encounter the same situation in a few months that you did prior, it's a different situation. because you can encounter the same situation in a few It's different.
	The dynamic is different.
	The roles are different and things change.
	So you can't just have this way of doing it.
	This is okay.
	If my child presents me with this challenge, I'm going to handle it this way or I'm going to handle it this way.
	You just simply don't know.
	And I think that has been the hardest for me to adapt to as a person.
	A little bit OCD in that way.
	I like to have all my ducks lined up.
	I like to know, you know, what is going to happen?
	How am I going to handle it?
	And I was always like that in my I had a corporate life before I had children, so adjusting to this kind of just go with the flow kind of thing has been a challenge for me all along.
	I can't think of any one particular instance, but anyone that has kids knows that these things come up.
	You just get blindsided, and sometimes it's a very serious issue.
	And typically, we tend as parents to deal with the very serious emergencies with much more swift efficiency than the not-so-serious emergencies.
	It's more the philosophical things that we grapple with, like when our child expresses that they want to get a tattoo at eight years old, and we say, well, no, you're too young for a tattoo, and they say, how come?
	And you say, I don't really know.
	Plus you also have to explain to the child that Herve de Lachaise is in fact dead.
	Oh, that is a joke that's going to be lost on anyone under 40.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Oh gosh, I'm threatening 40.
	You can threaten all you want, but I can tell you from personal experience, 40 will always win.
	And it's good that it does.
	The only thing that's worse than aging is the alternative.
	I think maybe, you know, the tattoo scenario is a little bit of an exaggeration, but the idea is that this isn't a real serious life issue.
	But it is something that you will tend to have to deal with at some point.
	And we can go on and tell ourselves that my child will never smart mouth me or my child will never have attitude problems or, you know, my daughter will never go through that weird stage even because I'm a home educating parent and they're not going to have attitude problems.
	It's going to happen.
	You know why?
	Because they are human beings too.
	And we must recognize that they have mood swings just like we do.
	They have bad days just like we do.
	They get aggravated just like we do.
	And sometimes they snap at each other, especially when you have siblings and And they snap at you.
	And I found a struggle to stop myself from just having that immediate, especially that ingrained New York City, Brooklyn response.
	What did you just say to me to just kind of take it back a notch and say, okay, wait a minute, wait a minute.
	Why are we speaking like this?
	What's going on here?
	And then telling myself, how am I going to deal with this?
	Is this a reprimand situation or is there something deeper going on here?
	And every single situation, every single day is a new adventure.
	So I've had to just get used to that.
	You have to get used to the fact that there is no instruction.
	But you always have to keep an open mind and look beneath the surface of the situation.
	There is always more to it than meets the eye.
	And that is the biggest thing for parents to realize, is that to it than meets the eye.
	Find out what's really going on every time something seems to be going haywire, because sometimes it's not.
	Sometimes it's going right.
	It's just not mainstream, so you think it's wrong.
	You know what I mean?
	Yeah, no, I think also one of the things that's profoundly humbling about parenting is that You really cannot have a standard, which is that your children should behave better than you're behaving.
	And so as you say, yeah, they're going to snap at each other, but that's, you know, you name me a parent who doesn't ever do that, and, you know, I'll tell you a parent who's probably not telling the truth.
	So recognizing that you can't have higher standards for your children than you do for yourself, I think is really important and quite humbling.
	And certainly the challenges that I've run into as parenting are when I have higher standards for her than I do for me.
	And that's obviously not right.
	It's really quite the opposite.
	It's true.
	Right.
	It's natural.
	It's natural because as parents, we want better for our kids than we had.
	And that plays into that.
	We feel like, okay, these are the things that I wasn't able to enjoy in my life.
	And I want you to be able to have those things.
	And it comes down to money.
	A lot of parents work hard because they want their kids to have a better house or better clothes or better toys.
	And we talked about this before.
	I know Stefan there.
	I mean, as much as we think they're interested in all that, all they really want is more of you.
	But it's natural to want that because we love them and we want to shower them with everything that we feel is going to make them happy.
	And we want to give them a better experience than we had.
	So that kind of plays into that when we expect more from them because we think, well...
	You should be doing better than I did.
	Or, you know, I wasn't very smart in math, so therefore you need to excel in math and you need to be a math genius.
	It's very natural for us to do that.
	And the first thing we need to do is acknowledge that we're doing that and forgive ourselves and say, you know what, this is human.
	But now that you've acknowledged it, deal with it and say, is this healthy?
	Am I really doing something healthy for myself?
	Sometimes it is.
	Sometimes it is healthy to encourage them because I'm not one of these parents that'll say, you know what, whatever works for you, whatever's great.
	I've been on this earth a longer time than my child has.
	I know it's going to hurt you and I know it's going to hinder them, okay?
	So it is healthy to encourage them to go in certain directions.
	But force is never healthy.
	And we must draw a distinction between encouragement, healthy encouragement, and force.
	And then we have to draw a distinction between, are we encouraging because we're living vicariously through them?
	Like, do we want to push our daughter to be a ballerina because we were never able to be a ballerina?
	Or are we encouraging them because we can recognize their potential and we want to teach them about perseverance?
	So it really does take, we have to pay attention to ourselves and our own motives and make sure that what we're doing, we're doing it for them and not for us.
	Yeah, I mean, you see this a lot, I think, where children misbehave in public and the parents clearly feel like it's a stain upon their own parenting, honor, and dignity, and I think come down much harder on the kid as a result of that.
	Now, we've had a question recently that provoked a lively debate on the message boards, which was getting children to do chores.
	I think that's a very interesting question.
	I don't really have...
	Too much of an issue with that at the moment.
	My job is to clean the bathrooms.
	As a husband, obviously, I contribute more to the mess than most.
	She's actually quite happy to come and help, but I know that there'll be a time where it won't be so thrilling for her.
	What's your relationship with your kids and chores, and how do you deal with those challenges, Leigh?
	You know what?
	I've gone through all the steps of chore charts and setting up allowance and you'll earn 50 cents extra or a couple of dollars extra if you do this task or if you do this task.
	I've been through that whole experience and I've also been through the experience where we take the total lax approach And just say, no, I'm not going to force anything.
	Everybody just live and let live.
	Everything's great.
	But you know what, Stefan?
	I come from the school of thought that cleanliness matters.
	And I just, I think it matters.
	I think it's healthy to live in a clean environment.
	I think it's I live in an organized environment and this is something that I felt was important for my children.
	Now, I did take some time to really reflect on what my motivation was there and do I want my kids to be clean because I want a clean house or do I want them to be clean because I feel this is an important skill to learn?
	And I concluded that I want it for them because it is an important skill to learn.
	Because in my life, I have learned through experience that I was healthier mentally, physically, and spiritually when my environment was organized and clean.
	That is a skill that I'd like to learn.
	Show my kids.
	And that is an experience I'd like to show them.
	Look, this is sloppy.
	This is clean.
	What feels better?
	Okay?
	So that's what I did.
	That's how I started treating it.
	And that's when I started rolling down there.
	Okay, well, we're going to have chores and we're going to have jobs.
	And I made a whole chart and I got out the oat tag and I had like, you know, point systems.
	And I mean, I've tried so many different ways to make this work.
	And I think the real reason why it didn't work is Deep down inside, I didn't like it.
	I felt that it was insulting.
	I wouldn't like to be put on a chart.
	I wouldn't like to be controlled in that way.
	And that's when I realized it's not really working because that dislike, that distaste that I have in my system is translating.
	My kids are kind of saying, yeah, whatever, because they're feeling it.
	Feeling that I don't even like it.
	So this is how it works in my house now.
	So sort of the idea that if you had a boss at work and he gave you these color charts and wheels and reward points and someone, that would feel kind of diminishing to you?
	Yeah, I didn't...
	I never responded well to a work environment like that, and I didn't really, when I was in the work world and the corporate world, I didn't have to work under those conditions, and I don't think I would have thrived under those conditions.
	So not saying that my children wouldn't, maybe they would, but because I personally didn't like that, that negative energy was coming forth when I was trying to implement it in my home.
	And, you know, they kind of felt the vibe, you know, like, Mommy doesn't even like this, why should we?
	Not...
	In those words, but the vibe is there.
	The energy is there.
	You're trying to push something that you don't even believe in.
	So, of course, it's not going to work.
	What happens now in my house is, well, let me give you the perfect example.
	Let's say, for example, you came to visit me and my family, and you and your wife and your daughter were staying in my house.
	with my family and we were enjoying a lovely summer and I said gee you know what we had a great barbecue last night but I'm a little overwhelmed and I have all this to clean up right and I can tell you look that the staff is off today you know and uh it's Sunday they just don't work today and I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed about the left we met the mess we left last night so could do you think you and your wife can help me straighten up and you would say okay yeah that's the same way I talk to my kids I'll tell them, gosh, guys, look, the kitchen is a mess.
	Can you help me?
	And, you know, sometimes they'll go, I really don't feel like cleaning up right now.
	I talk to them, you know, and they're kind of like, okay, you know, so the conversation doesn't always go that way, but I try not to be demanding.
	I try not to say, you get in there and you clean that kitchen now because it's your job or whatever, or I'll pass by the boys' bathroom because the boys have their own bathroom, and I'll say, oh, guys, why are you It is just not cool in there.
	And that's all I have to say.
	And they'll say, okay, okay, okay.
	Okay, yeah, I know.
	That's our responsibility.
	But it just makes sense, you know?
	You treat them like they're part of the family and they act like they're part of the family.
	Dictate.
	And say, you're going to do this and you're going to do this and you're going to clean the bowl and you're going to do this.
	You just kind of say, listen, we all live in this house.
	Daddy participates in cleaning.
	Mommy participates in cleaning.
	And all three of you participate in cleaning.
	And that's just how it is.
	I don't really say too much about their room unless it really gets out of control.
	And we live kind of in a rural area and it just operates better.
	And we're learning that and it just happens, if that makes sense.
	But if you start making charts, you know, I don't know.
	It just confuses the issue.
	And what about money?
	How do you help your kids develop a good relationship with money?
	I'm sorry, can you repeat that?
	Sure.
	What about money?
	How do you help your children develop a good relationship with money?
	Well, I went through...
	And my husband had an objection to that for what?
	And I said, well, for existing, doesn't everybody need pocket money?
	You know, you earn the money.
	And my husband earns the bulk of the money in the household.
	And then, you know, I spend it as I please.
	And he said, yeah, but all right, when they want something, they ask for it.
	And we have a discussion whether or not we get it.
	And sometimes we do and sometimes we don't.
	You know, I don't understand why we're just arbitrarily giving them money.
	So I went back and forth and I said, well, everybody should have an allotment of spending money and it makes perfect sense.
	And then I slid to the other side where I said, well, they should have to earn the money.
	They should learn to value the dollar and realize that it's not just going to appear in their wallet for no reason.
	And I understood that.
	I get that.
	That makes sense to me that be some appreciation for money and so that, you know, they don't just spend it wildly either.
	What I've decided to hopefully do is I do give them what I call an allowance.
	And I use the word allowance because it really is just pocket money.
	It's allotment of money.
	You participate in the house.
	They do keep up with their cleaning.
	They do keep up with their room.
	They do help with the dishes.
	They do help with the laundry.
	I mean, they all participate.
	Allotment of money that's just pocket change to spend on, you know, whatever they want to spend it on, whether it be Legos or those silly little machines that they like to get the junk out of or whatever it is.
	Okay.
	On top of that, there's opportunities to earn more money, maybe for something that's something that we don't do all the time, like raking the lawn.
	And we have two years of lawn here to rake.
	So that's a big deal.
	So they can earn extra money for that.
	Or helping me with a specific project for the radio show or the book that I'm writing or something.
	I'll say, listen, I really need this help.
	If you mail out these 100 envelopes or so, I'll pay you a certain amount of money.
	Or my husband.
	My husband runs an online business.
	If he needs help with packing orders, he'll offer them the chance to make some more money.
	What they've started doing, too, is offering services to the neighbors to walk dogs or babysit pets or go feed the cats or whatever.
	So that's how we're starting to teach them the value of money and that it just feels really good when you've earned it and now it's yours.
	And I have noticed, Stefan, that when they put in the effort to earn the money, they don't spend it as easily.
	They're a little bit more careful about how they're spending it.
	So it does make a difference.
	Yeah, I believe that for sure.
	We've had a question from a father-to-be, I think it's a father-to-be, maybe it's a mom, about tips on handling newborns.
	My suggestion is salad tongs by the heel.
	Pick them up gently and don't hold them upside down for too long.
	You may want to add to that or contradict that completely since you have more experience with newborns than I do.
	What are your biggest tips for working with or handling newborns?
	Be with them.
	Just be with them.
	Newborns are really pretty easy.
	The hardest part about newborns is sleep deprivation, and especially if it's your first newborn.
	Going from the life of not being a parent to the life of being a parent is a huge transition.
	And unfortunately, there really is no way for any of us to explain that.
	You have to just experience it.
	And people say all the time, oh everything changes when you become a parent, but you don't really get that.
	Until you become a parent and there's really no way to get it.
	But as far as handling newborns, I don't even like the term handled because there's nothing to really handle.
	All they need, okay?
	Now this also comes down to, I also talk about this consumerism aspect of it where we have been trained It requires thousands and thousands of dollars.
	And even families will say, well, we can't have a baby yet because we can't afford it because they think that babies are so expensive.
	But let's really, really think.
	Really take a moment to think about it here.
	What does that newborn actually need?
	That newborn needs to eat and needs to be safe.
	The mother breastfeeds, so the milk is already there.
	It doesn't cost any money at all.
	So all they really need is their mother and a pair of warm arms to hold them and someplace safe to sleep.
	And when they're not eating, the father will do just fine.
	Okay?
	And if there is no mother, then of course you can lean on the bottles or whatever, but I won't get into that argument now.
	All they really need is a good pair of boobs, And love.
	That's it.
	They don't actually need any of that other stuff.
	So when you think about it that way, you realize how easy it actually is.
	This is the time when your child is newborn.
	This is the time that you're really forming your relationship with your child.
	They can't talk, they can't communicate, but they can feel.
	And you are going to be forming a bond with your child during this time.
	And they need to be held by their mommy or their daddy as often as possible.
	Because this is when the foundation of your relationship is going to be built.
	Okay?
	So many studies that have already proven this, that this bond is formed in these most precious, most precious years because they learn to trust, they learn to feel safe.
	That is what they need.
	They need attention when they cry, they need to be held, they need to be loved, and they need to be fed.
	And that's it.
	So as far as handling a newborn, there's really not that much to handle.
	Because if you're paying attention, you'll know what to do instinctively.
	I mean, think about it, Stefan.
	Human beings have been around for a really long time.
	And we're not all the brightest bulbs in the past.
	Make sense?
	It sure does.
	And I think it's important for people to remember too, biologically, the first year of a child's life has been called the fourth trimester.
	We're born incredibly premature.
	A foal, like a baby horse, can walk within a day or two of being born.
	It takes human beings, you know, 8, 10, 12 months to learn that.
	So we're born incredibly premature simply because we need a brain that's big and it has to be able to fit through the hoo-hoo and so we're born very premature and so the infant is really looking for a continuation of the womb and that means I would suggest you prepare your child for birth by obviously talking to your child the mom and the dad and studies have shown that children actually react more to dad's voice than mom probably because it's a little rarer Well, no.
	It's because the voice is deeper.
	My husband used to do that.
	I would talk and I didn't feel a lot of kicking as soon as my husband.
	And my husband has a really, really deep voice.
	And he would talk to my stomach.
	And each time I was pregnant, the baby would go wild because of the deepness and the booming of the voice.
	There's a thicker vibration.
	Oh, okay.
	That's cool.
	That's cool.
	Yeah.
	So talk in that way.
	I mean, there have been studies that show that songs that are sung to infants that they respond to like a year after birth more positively.
	So you really are developing the relationship before the baby is born.
	So, you know, talk and read and sing songs and all that.
	And then there's going to be much more continuation.
	And yeah, the helding, the skin contact is essential.
	And I'm a big fan, of course, of breastfeeding.
	I know there's a debate at the moment.
	I don't know if you want to chime in on it or not about this.
	Continuing the breastfeeding into two, three, four years and sometimes even older.
	That's a bit unusual to me, but definitely I think breastfeeding is key if it's at all possible.
	Just try and hold and cuddle and talk and coo.
	You can do some fun stuff with babies.
	You can bring them different things to feel, right?
	Soft things, rough things, and you can show them colors and so on.
	They can really process a lot, although they can't, of course, move very much or do much on their own.
	They can process a lot, and they're really looking for, at least my daughter was, for stimulation.
	So you can bring them lots of cool things to touch and to hold and to try and, you know, they'll still like it if you put a bubble on their finger.
	It'd be quite fascinating and so on.
	So there's a lot that you can do to interact with them, though they can't do much on their own.
	So I think I found that particularly helpful.
	Yes, definitely.
	As they get older, as they get into 3, 4, 5 months old, they're able to We're good to go.
	They begin to recognize your voice.
	They will recognize the mother's voice, the father's voice.
	They also recognize the sound of the mother's heartbeat, which is why they like to be held so close because it's a safe and familiar sound and also vibration.
	It's a safe and familiar feeling, which is why co-sleeping is so healthy.
	The baby's used to being very close to the mother.
	So if they're like that for nine months and then suddenly they're left all by themselves in some kind of bassinetto crib, of course they tend to cry a little bit more.
	She's a little harder on the parent because that just means more sleep deprivation for you having to get up every time they cry.
	If you sleep with them, you get so much more sleep.
	And it was so easy when I was breastfeeding my infants because you only kind of have to be half awake to make that happen.
	And you're so much more well-rested, which reduces stress for mom and reduces stress for dad because then mom's not so cranky during the day.
	And also reduces...
	Because if you take a six-month-old baby down the aisle, they're not going to pick out their swing or whatever.
	You're picking it out.
	This is for you.
	So if you think it's cool and the baby likes it, great.
	But if you're worried about spending and you don't want to spend that money or whatever, the baby doesn't need it.
	The baby just needs you.
	And your relationship with the child is going to be so much better because of it.
	As far as the breastfeeding thing, you know, it's funny.
	I have...
	I have a little bit of internal trouble with that.
	I did not practice their calling now extended breastfeeding.
	I have a problem with even calling it something.
	It's so absurd.
	We really are fascinating human beings.
	We come up with these names for everything that we do.
	Now, being a parent is called attachment parenting, and it used to be just called you're a mother or you're a father.
	And, you know, whatever.
	So this whole extended breastfeeding thing, I don't really understand.
	By definition, I guess, I didn't practice it because I let my kids wean when they were able to start eating real food.
	Because the purpose of breastfeeding is so that we can give our children nutrition until they're able to consume nutrition on their own.
	Yes, there is an emotional factor to it, and they do feel secure, and they do like the emotional closeness of it, but that sort of weans at the same time as the physical need for the breast.
	So there is a physical need and an emotional need, and they both sort of wean at the same time, and they're supposed to wean at the same time.
	There isn't any other mammal on Earth that continues to nurse their young Into older ages more than they're necessary.
	Other mammals nurse their young until they're able to eat and get nutrition on their own and then they will push them away.
	Cats do it.
	Dogs do it.
	We had a cat that had many litters and every time she had a litter, as soon as the kittens were eating on their own, they would try to nurse more and she would push them away, push them away, push them away.
	This is very natural.
	Okay?
	So when people use the argument that extended breastfeeding is natural, it's flawed because it's not.
	And I do, I am skeptical that the parent is doing it more for them than for the child.
	Now, of course, the child's not going to say no because it feels good.
	It tastes good.
	It makes us feel close to mommy and we like it.
	But there is a significant reason to wean when the child is able to get nutrition from other places.
	Now, I never suggest that any parent make it a struggle.
	If the child is kicking and screaming and crying, Do it.
	Fine.
	But you should still try and say, okay, well, you know what?
	Instead of this, how about we have some juice?
	Or how about we sit down and play a game?
	Or how about we draw a picture together?
	Because sometimes they're not hungry.
	They're looking for closeness.
	They're looking for intimacy.
	Find another way to provide a relationship.
	And they're getting older now.
	They're three, four years old.
	Mentally stimulate them.
	Have a conversation with them.
	All they really want is intimacy.
	If they want food, you can give them food.
	If they're hungry, you can find another source of nutrition at three or four years old.
	If they're not hungry, what they're looking for is closeness from you.
	So instead of just leaning on that and pulling out your boob and saying, okay, this is how we can be close, find another way to be close to your child.
	Find an alternative.
	Now, that said...
	If there are moms out there that are listening to me and saying, I don't care what you say, Lorette, I have an eight-year-old and I'm going to nurse them as long as I want, whatever.
	It doesn't really make any difference.
	If you want to do that and you're comfortable with it, fine.
	But if we're to ask my opinion, that is my opinion.
	If we're going to claim to be natural, then let's be natural.
	Right.
	Now, what about if you're raising your child to be a free thinker?
	Self-directed, self-motivated, and rational, and all those kinds of good things.
	How do you shape, or how does it work in their relationship with a different culture, a culture that's significantly different from your parenting as a whole?
	Can you be more specific?
	I'm not sure really what you're asking me.
	Well, so, I mean, your kids will have a different relationship to something like the government.
	They'll have a different relationship to Perhaps organized religion.
	They'll have a different relationship than the general culture as a whole.
	So when they mix with the muggles, really, with the status and so on, how does that work?
	Well, I guess that would make us the muggles, wouldn't it?
	Because we're the non-dogmatic.
	But I don't know.
	I guess, yeah, depending on how you look at it, using the Harry Potter metaphor, I'd rather be the muggle in some cases.
	But anyway, we live in Oklahoma.
	Which is the reddest state in the country.
	And it is also the most Christian state in the country.
	And we are neither true Republicans or Christians.
	And still, we love our lives here.
	And we have a great time.
	And my kids have many friends.
	And I have many friends.
	And we do just fine.
	So I hope that gives you a preliminary answer to the question, just knowing that it's possible.
	What we do is...
	We have a lot of conversations with our children.
	We really don't prevent exposure to anything unless it's just completely inappropriate or it might scare the pants off of them.
	And even in those cases, they know that these things exist.
	We would rather not watch X-rated movies.
	They just know that they exist.
	But they know all about different religions.
	They know about Christianity.
	They know about Buddhism, which is more a philosophy.
	They know about Judaism.
	They know about Muslim.
	They understand why people are religious.
	They understand where the beliefs come from, why people believe the way they do.
	They understand why their parents are Don't submit to that particular kind of dogma.
	They know about my past.
	They know that I was raised Catholic.
	They know that I was evangelical Christian for a while and why I chose not to be anymore and why I don't buy into that anymore.
	They know why their father is...
	I would pretty much consider him an atheist, although he doesn't like to use that terminology.
	They know why he believes that.
	We have asked them what they feel and what they think And they have so far pretty much concluded that They're okay with who we are, and they have no need to depend on any religion.
	But they are also very respectful of their friends that do.
	In private, they will say, you know, my friend thinks there was no such thing as dinosaurs.
	And, you know, I think that's stupid, Mom.
	And I'll just kind of shrug and say, I know, I know.
	But, you know, that's what they believe, and it's okay to talk about it.
	But you can let them know that you disagree, but never be insulting.
	And that's what they'll do.
	That's exactly how they handle it.
	Handle it.
	They will let their friends know that they disagree, but they're never insulting.
	They'll say something like, okay, I don't really believe that, but I understand why you believe it, and, you know, let's just talk about Legos now.
	They're never insulting, and their friends in return are never insulting to them, so it just comes down to a basic understanding of having respect for other people.
	There are some situations that we have been in with We're extreme religious people who have found out that we're not Christian and don't want to hang out with us anymore.
	And that does hurt sometimes.
	It hurts my kids' feelings sometimes.
	But even then, I just let them know, look, I'm sorry.
	There's nothing we can do.
	It just is the way it is.
	And you know what?
	We might be better off because you could probably form closer relationships with people that think like you do or that have similar interests as you do.
	And that's happened too.
	We've met other friends that are also non-religious like we are, and we do end up having more significant friendships and relationships with those, but we're able to pretty much hang out with anybody.
	As far as political, my kids know where we stand politically and understand why we stand there politically, but they typically have political conversations with their friends, so that hasn't become an issue.
	Does that help?
	That sure does.
	All right.
	So, yeah, so for the people who are not from America, when she says red state, it doesn't just refer to the sunburn on the back of the neck, but heavy, heavy Republican.
	Hey, it's six of one.
	All right.
	Let's just see what else we have.
	James, today I'm going to be looking for questions.
	Did you see any of the questions that I may have missed?
	Oh yeah, three-year-old baby who turns her head to refuse food.
	A three-year-old baby who turns her head to refuse food.
	Go!
	Is it a three-year-old or three-day-old?
	Sorry, three-day-old.
	To refuse breast?
	The breast?
	Or what is it exactly?
	Is she refusing breast?
	I mean, I guess I would ask for clarification.
	Sushi, I think.
	Yeah, I mean, you know, I refuse a lot of foods too, but a three-day-old baby refusing, you know, the breast or even, you know, I guess if it's from dad or it's a bottle or whatever, is it all the time?
	Have they not eaten in days?
	I mean, because that could be a medical issue.
	That could be a whole different thing than philosophical.
	There's not much philosophy going on with a three-day-old baby.
	Yeah, I mean, there is a little bit of weight loss after babies are born.
	Nothing too much, of course, but they are switching food supplies, so there is a little bit of weight loss.
	If we're talking about a three-day-old baby who has not eaten at all yet since they've been born, there's a medical problem there.
	There's just not being a pain in the ass.
	I mean, there's a problem.
	Is that the question?
	Three days old and has not eaten at all?
	I can't imagine.
	Because if that's it, then I do suggest seeking some kind of a healthcare provider, even if it's a natural healthcare practitioner or whatever.
	Something needs to happen.
	It's not normal for a three-year-old to not want to be hungry.
	They will lose weight, but they won't want to eat.
	Most babies eat within five minutes after they're born.
	I've heard people say that too about infants.
	The infant is misbehaving.
	A week old baby does not misbehave.
	It just doesn't happen.
	If they're refusing to eat, then they're sick.
	I'm not really sure how to answer that until I get more clarification.
	Three years old, it just means they don't like broccoli, dude.
	Stop giving the kid what they don't like.
	So let's see, how do you get children to eat spinach and green beans, etc., if they grow older, if they already develop problematic eating behaviors?
	Well, I actually have come up with a kind of cool solution for that.
	My daughter had a cold recently, and so I explained what antibodies are.
	And so they're like busybodies, but they're more negative.
	So the antibodies, so you know, these little animals in her body that jump on germs and try and throw them out through her boogers.
	It was quite a thrilling description and she really enjoyed the description and so she really sort of understood.
	And I was pointing out to her that her tongue likes sugar, you know, her belly doesn't like sugar so much and her bowels certainly don't like sugar that much because, you know, it makes the poop all sticky.
	But her antibodies really love vegetables, even though her tongue doesn't love vegetables as much, the antibodies really do.
	You know, there's an old quote by Nietzsche who says, give a man Give a man a why and he can bear almost any how.
	In other words, if we have a sense of why something needs to be done, then we can usually find a way to get it done.
	Now, of course, the problem with kids, the challenge, the excitement of kids, the natural state of childhood is that they can't look beyond the moment.
	They can't sort of look and say, well, I'm really going to need to eat my vegetables because in three days, I won't get a cold that I otherwise would get.
	That's just not how kids work or live.
	In fact, there's precious few adults who can look that far ahead.
	So the first thing, I think, is to help them to understand why their body needs it.
	And just saying, well, it'll help you grow is, I think, a little bit abstract.
	I think they need to see something in their mind's eye that's a tangible value.
	For vegetables, because obviously they don't taste as good as other stuff that they could eat.
	So I think this was a couple of months ago, so this is at around three.
	I'm sure I could have explained it earlier if I thought of it, but to explain why that needs to happen I think is important.
	The second thing, of course, is if you want your kids to eat well, the first thing that you need to do is show them that you're eating well.
	So obviously if you're showing down on a And giving them beans and vegetables and so on, that's not going to work.
	So you need to really enjoy the vegetables yourself or find ways to enjoy them yourself.
	So I think, yeah, helping them to understand that what their tongue likes isn't always what the rest of their body likes.
	And sometimes what their tongue doesn't like as much is really needed by other parts of their body for good reasons, I think has been really helpful.
	And it's been a lot easier to get Izzy to eat her vegetables now that she remembers that her antibodies really like them.
	But Lorette, what are your thoughts?
	You know what?
	All I could really do is add to that.
	I can't make it any better because that is perfect.
	That is the perfect response.
	And that really is the answer to how to deal with that is start from the get-go like you're doing with your daughter.
	And don't say to yourself, well, she's only two or three years old or, you know, the boy is only two or three years old, so they don't understand.
	Because they understand so much better than you think they do.
	And you may have to simplify your language a little bit, but you can.
	You can simplify your language like you and you made it fun.
	And you said, you know, your tongue likes it, but your belly doesn't like it.
	And you know, you explain the antibodies like bugs and it pushes it out through the boogers.
	And then they giggle because they like words like boogers, but it also helps them understand.
	So that is excellent because not only are you explaining to them the why, But you're also respecting their intelligence.
	You're letting them know that I'm just not going to say because I said so.
	Because that's very demeaning when you say, eat it because I said so.
	You're letting them know that you think that they are smart enough to understand it.
	And when they feel smart and they feel respected and they feel seen in that way, they respond so much more positively to the information that you're trying to give them.
	So that's excellent.
	There are many aspects there that work.
	And of course, If you, in your house, eat well, then by default, your children will usually eat well.
	If you are a fast food family, your child will probably be part of that culture.
	So it's just kind of, you have to let it flow through your culture.
	That being said, though, I know that there probably are a lot of parents out there listening, and I know because I've experienced this myself, too, where you give advice, and a lot of the advice comes from how to start.
	But there are a lot of parents out there that might be listening that are saying, okay, yeah, great.
	But I didn't start that way.
	And now I have a seven-year-old that will not put a vegetable in his mouth.
	So how do I do that now?
	I can't rewind.
	I can't go back in time.
	And I can relate to that very, very closely because I have a nine-year-old who is extremely fussy.
	And...
	Get this.
	We are a healthy eating household.
	We are mostly vegetarian in my household.
	My husband runs a business.
	I've mentioned that before.
	It is a health and nutrition business.
	It is an alternative, holistic health business.
	Okay?
	And we are organic, whole, vegetarian eaters.
	So to have a nine-year-old who does not like vegetables is extremely frustrating in my house.
	I have tried...
	Different things.
	I did try the force thing, and that was so short-lived because it made him angry.
	It made me angry.
	I didn't like doing it.
	He didn't respond positively to it.
	When I did finally get a green bean in him, he threw up, and that was the end of green beans for the end of time.
	I don't think the kid will ever eat a green bean in his life because it was traumatic.
	And I am so sorry that I did it because it was such a mistake.
	He was three years old, and I should not have done it.
	It was a moment of panic because I was feeling, well, he has to eat vegetables.
	He has to eat vegetables.
	It was a mistake.
	I shouldn't have done it.
	And I tell all parents out there, do not do that.
	Do not force because it will backfire.
	Nothing good can come of force ever.
	Okay?
	Have a conversation with them first, like you suggested, Stefan.
	Especially with an older child.
	Now they may already be at that point where they have not eaten a vegetable in their lives and you're starting to freak out and you're saying, dude, you have to start eating well.
	You're starting to get chubby around the middle.
	We have to do something about this.
	Explain it to them.
	Treat them like they're intelligent people and explain to them why it's important and why You're going to make an effort together and you're going to try together.
	Then, especially if they're older, if they're six, seven, I would say anytime after five years old, get them involved in cooking.
	Tell them, okay, let's go to the supermarket together.
	Let's pick out food.
	Let's look at recipes online.
	Pick out something you think you'd like to make.
	Let's watch Rachel Ray or let's watch the Food Network, something that looks interesting to you.
	Let's make it, especially if it incorporates vegetables and healthier foods.
	Let's do it together.
	They're so much more likely to eat the food if they've cooked the food.
	That is something that I've incorporated with my son, who's a very fussy eater or would be considered a fussy eater.
	That has helped tremendously.
	Not only did he eat the food that he cooked himself, but he found a new passion.
	He loves cooking and he's really good at it.
	He made me Mother's Day breakfast and it was awesome.
	So that's the way to get over that.
	Talk to them, let them get involved in cooking, and ultimately you have to let it be their decision, but explain it to them.
	Here's another tip.
	There's books out there.
	One of them is called The Sneaky Chef.
	I forgot what the other one is called.
	There's a lot of recipe websites and everything that teach you how to sneak vegetables into food.
	Don't do it.
	I tried it.
	My kid is smarter than we think they are.
	Your kids are smarter than you think they are.
	They will find it.
	They will sense the discoloration in the food.
	I don't care how finely you puree it.
	They will sense that there is a difference and they will say, I don't want it.
	It tastes funny because a fussy eater is very in tune to how their macaroni and cheese tastes.
	And if it tastes off, they're going to push it away and they're not going to eat it and you're going to get frustrated.
	Here's how I made that work.
	I showed my son and I said, look, This is a way that I can get cauliflower into the macaroni and cheese.
	I'm going to puree it.
	I'm going to put it in.
	And he said, all right, let's try it.
	He helped me do it.
	He helped me put it in.
	I said, let's try pureeing spinach and putting it into the beans.
	He understood that spinach was healthy.
	We put it in the refried beans.
	We made burritos.
	He was fine.
	Don't lie to them.
	If you want to sneak the food in, tell them that you're doing it.
	Make them a part of it.
	And then to him, my son now, he thinks that this is a fun way to get his vegetables without actually having to eat them in their state that they are.
	He will not eat a salad, but he will eat them hidden in other foods as long as I don't lie to him.
	And if I hand him something, he'll say, what's in this?
	And I tell him the truth.
	As long as I tell him the truth, he will try it and then he's honest with me if he doesn't like it and we move on.
	That's my advice to parents with fussy eaters.
	Don't lie to them.
	If you have a young child, do what Stefan says.
	Start right from the beginning.
	Eat healthy.
	Explain things to them.
	Be honest with them.
	Let them know why sugar is unhealthy.
	Let them know why McDonald's is unhealthy.
	And talk to them like they're intelligent.
	If you have an older child, you have to be honest with them.
	Get them involved in it.
	Let them have control and do not lie to them.
	Because I tried that too and it did not work.
	I'm showing you my vulnerabilities right now.
	I try never to end up in a situation where I might have to tell my daughter a falsehood.
	And I also tell her, look, I have to take care of your tongue.
	I have to take care of your bum.
	I have to take care of what goes in and I have to take care.
	I'm also responsible for how easy your poop is to make.
	That's my job as well.
	And the other thing too...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I'm sorry, Bill.
	If I... Me and my husband go to a party or if we have Christmas dinner or, you know, some other kind of occasion where we overeat or we indulge in dessert foods or anything, I normally don't feel very good after I indulge like that because I do typically eat very healthy.
	So when I do indulge the next day, I normally feel kind of cranky and sluggish.
	And I always tell my kids, yeah, I'm just hungover from food.
	So they already know that it can affect you, especially if you're used to eating healthy.
	And they'll make the decision themselves.
	And they'll go to a birthday party and they'll have popcorn and pizza.
	And the next day, if they feel kind of like, eh, they know and they say, all right, I'll just drink a lot of water today and I'll get over it.
	So it's just a matter of knowing, being real.
	Just be real.
	And if you are changing direction as a parent, if you're saying, look, you've been not eating vegetables for a while and now, sorry, one second, and now you need to eat vegetables, then you have to be honest that you're changing direction.
	A lot of parents try and gloss that over.
	Yeah, no, don't sneak that in.
	Be very honest and have a conversation with your child, no matter how old they are, as long as they can understand English.
	Have a conversation with them and say, we're changing direction.
	We're going to be cooking some different meals.
	We're going to be making some different recipes and here's why.
	Because we're having some issues with health or maybe we're not having issues with health.
	We're just a little bit more concerned about our health.
	And we want to make sure that we're treating our bodies right.
	We treat our mind right.
	We treat our spirit right.
	We treat our body right.
	And if we treat our body right, we will be healthier and live longer and, you know, enjoy more energy and so on and so forth.
	So be honest with them and let them know that you're trying too.
	Say, look, I haven't been a very good eater and I really want to change and I really need your help, so let's do this together.
	Don't be afraid to be human in front of your child.
	There is still a reason for you to have some kind of, I don't want to say authority because you shouldn't be an authority to your child, but you should be ultimately responsible because you are.
	Until they're on their own, you're ultimately responsible.
	And there are some times where you simply have to put your foot down and say, no, I'm sorry, but I cannot let you take the motorcycle.
	There are times when you're going to have to do that.
	But in these situations, when it comes to food and cooking and eating, There's nothing wrong with being human in front of your kids and saying, look, I'm a junk food junkie and I want to change and I need your help.
	Let's do this together.
	I think that's a really good point.
	I've also found that, yes, start habits as early, as positive as you can, and then if you've made mistakes in their eating habits, admit that.
	And remember, of course, the purpose of parenting is not to get your kids to do what you want, but the purpose of parenting is to prepare them for life.
	And you don't want to substitute your willpower for theirs, because that atrophies their willpower, their choices, their sense of control over their own life.
	You can make your kids eat stuff, but all that teaches them is that once you're not around, they can eat whatever they want.
	And that's, you know, I remember when I first went to college, everybody was getting drunk, and it's like, why?
	Well, because they hadn't had any particularly rational relationship or developed any self-control in those areas before.
	So, you know, always think about how is this going to help the kid when I'm not around, when they're out in the world, when they're making their own choices, when they're working, when they're dating, you know, how is what I'm doing going to help them or hinder them in those contexts?
	And I think that can really help make good decisions that way.
	Right.
	Well, you know what, Stefan, it also relates to school.
	And that's everything that my work is based on is education.
	And it really comes down to that.
	If they can learn from very early ages that they're in more control of what they're thinking, how they're feeling, the decisions that they're making, it really affects everything.
	And I believe that when we keep our children out of that school environment, it almost comes more natural to us.
	And families that aren't in the school environment typically don't have as many issues with food.
	I mean, we do, but they're not as bad, I guess, is the point.
	And I figured out how to handle it in this way.
	And the way that I handle it is by treating my son like he's a person and talking to him and have conversations with him and letting him be in control of what he's eating.
	And just explaining to him why it's important that these healthy foods are included in his meal.
	So now he does it himself and he'll puree his vegetables and quote unquote sneak them into his own foods because he's enjoying it and he's in control of it.
	And that's so important.
	When children are in school, they're not in any control at all.
	Their playtime is controlled.
	What they're learning is controlled.
	How they're learning it is controlled.
	Their social behavior is controlled.
	Even the friends they make are controlled.
	They're limited to these amounts of people that they have to choose from.
	And if they don't make a friend, they're told that they're sick and they have some kind of disorder.
	So then they're given medication because they're not friendly enough.
	It's such an insane environment.
	So this is why we even have to be having this conversation is because so much of our society is used to not being in control and not making our own decisions.
	If you allow your child the freedom to make their decisions, that is how they learn.
	That is how they grow.
	We're not supposed to make decisions for them.
	We're supposed to be there to guide them, to catch them when they fall from making a decision, you know, perhaps that went awry.
	And possibly sometimes to say, okay, wait a minute.
	Look, I want to let you make your own decision, but I'm older than you.
	I have experience and I know that this is not going to go well.
	Sometimes you have to put your foot down depending upon whether it's dangerous.
	Sometimes you simply have to say, I'm going to let you do this, but I'm going to let you know that you can get hurt doing this.
	And I think that's important too, especially when they become older and they get to be 9, 10, 11, and especially teenagers.
	You could say, I think this is going to go poorly and I think that you're not going to like the outcome.
	I'll be there for you if and when it falls apart, but I'm ultimately going to let you make your own decision.
	Sometimes they'll think about what you said, and it'll make sense, and they'll say, okay, you know what?
	Thanks, Mom.
	I'm glad that you pointed it out.
	I didn't see that, and I'm going to decide not to do this.
	Sometimes they say, you know what?
	I hear you, but I'm going to do it anyway.
	Fine.
	Just still be there for them when it goes awry.
	It's all a learning experience, and like I said before, every situation is different, but it is imperative, even at your daughter's age, Stefan, three years old, it is imperative that they feel that you respect them You find them to be intelligent and you allow them to have control over whatever decisions they can have control over.
	You know, three-year-olds only want some control.
	I completely agree.
	I was actually just yesterday, she's wanted to jump from the fourth step for a while and, you know, my chicken heart...
	From daddy-dom.
	It's like, no, you can't.
	And anyway, so I've been saying, I think that's too high.
	I think that's too high.
	And she's like, I really want to do it.
	I really want to do it.
	I said, I think it's too high.
	Anyway, so we, you know, there was a carpet down.
	So anyway, she jumped and she was fine.
	And so I said to her, okay, so who was right?
	And she said, I was.
	And I said, and who was wrong?
	You were.
	Daddy was wrong.
	And I really want her to be aware of that, that there are times when she'll make better decisions about her own body and her own capacities than I will, because she's in there.
	She obviously doesn't want to hurt herself.
	And at least a couple of times a day, we will say, so if I say something, I think that's not going to work out well, and then it doesn't, then I'll say, well, who was right?
	Well, Daddy was right.
	And who was wrong?
	Well, Isabella was wrong.
	But then the other time it works really well, so that she can have these negotiations.
	I know you've got to go in just a few minutes, Lorette.
	First of all, thank you so much for taking the time today.
	You'll be getting lots of incredibly positive feedback in the chat.
	But I really want to make sure that you get time to talk for a few minutes about your book.
	Your book, which I had the distinct privilege and pleasure of reading an advanced copy of recently.
	I just really want people to be aware of the book.
	Is it out yet?
	Where can they get a hold of it?
	It obviously comes with my very strong recommendations, passionately, beautifully, wonderfully written, and a hugely important topic.
	So if you can just, you know, switch on Marketing Helmet and Let people know about the book and where it's available.
	I'd appreciate that.
	It is coming out very soon.
	I originally promised that it would be out in May, but Stefan, unfortunately, I neglected to remember when...
	It was back in winter when I made that proclamation and I forgot that spring is the season when all the plays happen at the end of the year and my children are in drama and all the plays...
	Kind of happen in May and June and April.
	And I also forgot to remember that it is baseball season and there are lots of baseball games because I have two boys playing baseball, which is why I can't stay with you for the full two hours.
	Another piece of advice for parents, by the way, don't miss baseball games.
	It means a lot that you're there.
	So that has delayed because there have been so much There have been so many things going on in my mom life.
	I haven't been able to finish the book as early as I would have liked to.
	But I am so close to being done.
	And actually, I'm done.
	Now it's just the final version of piecing it all together and getting it published and getting it out there because I'm doing it myself.
	I'm having it printed and everything myself.
	So it will be out.
	I'm expecting by June 15th, but sometime in June, definitely.
	It will definitely be out very, very soon.
	Expected by June 15th.
	You can learn about the book by visiting laurettelynn.com.
	In the chat room, if you could just spell out my name.
	I'm also on Facebook under Lauret Lynn.
	You can learn about when the book is coming out and you can read some excerpts from the book and read the reviews.
	And thank you very much for your wonderful review, Stefan.
	That means a lot to me.
	So it will be out soon.
	There will be an e-book and a print version available and maybe at some point later an audio version.
	But for now, at least an e-book and a print version.
	And I'm excited.
	I'm excited about releasing it.
	I will also admit to your audience right now that I'm a little bit nervous because I say some bold things and I make some bold proclamations in the book.
	So I'm expecting some chaotic feedback.
	But, you know, I'm a tough girl.
	I'm prepared for it.
	Basically, the message of the book is that everybody should not go to school.
	School sucks and we should stay out of it.
	The only criticism I've gotten on the title so far is the title is Don't Do Drugs, Stay Out of School.
	Okay?
	Don't do drugs, stay out of school.
	And someone actually said that I should remove the drugs part because, you know, people like to have marijuana.
	But here's the thing.
	I don't think marijuana is a drug.
	I'm talking about pharmaceuticals.
	And it just doesn't make for a very easy flow if you say, don't do pharmaceuticals and stay out of school.
	But yeah, I'm excited and it should be out in a couple of weeks.
	Well, that's fantastic.
	And again, I would highly recommend picking it up.
	It's well worth it.
	I would also recommend to see if you can peel off the time to do the audiobook.
	It's well worth it.
	I mean, the majority of the work that I do gets consumed over audiobook.
	I think it's about a 10 or 15 to 1 ratio.
	People just like to have stuff on the go.
	But yeah, it's a great book.
	I'm going to try to get that done hopefully soon.
	I want to concentrate on getting this finished.
	And once it's done, I'll concentrate on getting the audio out there.
	So that should be available soon if you want to hang in there and wait for that.
	You have to listen to my lovely voice, though.
	Yeah, no, that's at LoretteLynn.com.
	Listen, I want to make sure that you get time to get to your son's baseball game.
	We'll all be rooting for them, and I hope he has a better experience with baseball than I did.
	I actually remember when I first came over, there's a game in England called Rounders, which is, I guess, the pre-colonial version of baseball, where if you hit the ball, you can actually choose whether you want to run or not, because you may think, well, I can hit it better next time.
	When I first came to Canada to play baseball, I was a pretty good hitter.
	I played cricket and rounders.
	I cracked a fairly good hit and I just stood there because I thought, I can hit it better next time.
	Of course, all the colonial kids were screaming at me, run, Limey, run!
	I'm like, no, no, no, I'll take the next one.
	It's okay, boys.
	So it's always good to know the local sports before you get involved with them, which I'm sure wasn't a problem for them.
	But make sure you get on time and unpluggedmom.com, well worth checking out.
	And thank you so much, Lorette, for taking the time.
	It was really, really appreciated.
	Absolutely.
	May I have 30 seconds of brag time on your show?
	Oh, totally.
	My son, who is currently 7 years old and is playing baseball, has a 930 batting record.
	For anybody that knows baseball knows what that is.
	He has been up to bat 17 times and has had a base hit 16.
	So that is an excellent batting record, and I like to brag every chance I get.
	One mom on an unopposing team, one of the games that we were at, he got up to bat and I heard the mom behind me groan and say, oh, it's this kid, knowing that we were going to get a base hit because my son was up.
	And it was kind of funny, but it also felt really good.
	Someone else then said, well, sure, this kid is homeschooled.
	He can practice as much as he wants.
	And I shrugged and I said, yes, so what's the problem?
	So that's just some advice I want to put into parents' heads right there.
	When you have somebody, when your son, when your child is really passionate about something, let them get involved in it.
	Let them get saturated in it.
	He practices as much as he wants to, and that is why he is really good at what he does.
	And I just wanted the opportunity to brag on him a little bit.
	That's another piece of advice I have for parents.
	Don't be afraid to brag on your kids a little bit and let them hear you.
	They're not going to get a swollen head.
	They're not going to get an out-of-proportion ego.
	Everybody needs that encouragement sometimes, and it's totally okay.
	I don't reward them when they don't do well, but when they do do well, I make sure that I recognize it.
	I have to go.
	So thank you very much, Stefan, and bye-bye.
	Thank you so much.
	And I just wanted to mention, I really think to extract the essence of what Loretta is saying, I think she's really pointing out that professional ballplayers make a huge amount of money, and what an amazing investment that is in your children, because you'd mean ka-ching, ka-ching.
	And remember, it ain't bragging if you can actually do it.
	So thanks again, and we'll talk to you soon.
	Great.
	Thanks, Stefan.
	Bye-bye.
	Bye.
	I think James is going to queue up a call or two.
	I guess, I don't know, a funny, easy story.
	So we were at a pond the other day looking for some frogs.
	And she actually has been watching, she watched the movie Rio, which is actually a pretty cute film, except for the fighting.
	But that's pretty common.
	But she's interested in the samba.
	And she's in her Wellington boots, and she got sort of stuck in the mud.
	I was right there, of course, but she's sort of going back and forth at high velocity, arms waving, stuck in the mud, trying to get herself out.
	And she just turned to me and yelled, da-da-da-da, look, I'm doing the Samba!
	Which I thought was just...
	She makes me fall over.
	She is really, really funny.
	It's not actually that cute.
	It actually is pretty funny.
	I mean, if an adult had done that, that would have been just fantastic.
	So, yes, anyway, so I just wanted to mention that, that she is an unbelievably funny girl.
	And she knew she was making a joke, and that's the cool thing.
	And so that's what actually makes it really funny.
	I wanted to mention that.
	Oh, you should have had me back in.
	Oh, did the call change again?
	Yeah, it's fine.
	Go ahead.
	Yeah, okay.
	Hi.
	Kumar here.
	How are you doing, Steph?
	Very well.
	How are you doing?
	I'm doing great, thank you.
	So my question is, online dictionaries mostly relate anarchy to chaos, except for this definition that says that anarchy is a state of society without government or law.
	So considering our philosophy of non-aggression, there can be laws and voluntary government, right?
	In a non-violent anarchic society.
	So why not name our philosophy differently instead of anarchy?
	Why not call it peacearchy or something like that?
	Well, I mean, that's a fine question, and I certainly have no objection.
	Some people call it voluntarism.
	Some people put the extra Y in for reasons I can't understand.
	Voluntarism, though I've done that myself too.
	I just...
	To me, I just want to kind of be up front.
	You know, it's like what Ayn Rand did with the word selfishness.
	If I say, well, I'm a pizzerkist, and they say, well, what does that mean?
	And I say, well, that's a society without a government, and they say, well, how's that different for anarchy?
	I say, well, I just don't like the word.
	Then it already sounds like I'm not being upfront.
	The word means without rulers, and, of course, colloquially it means chaos and all that, although...
	Of course, if you look at what's happening to the economics of the European Union, that's anarchy according to the colloquial sense.
	That's chaos, that's dissolution, that's conflict, that's riots, that's catastrophe.
	So, you know, I try not to use the word anarchy too much because anarchy is a conclusion.
	And philosophy is not about conclusions.
	Philosophy is about the process of thinking and reason and evidence and all that.
	And it is a continually evolving process, and I try not to work with conclusions.
	You know, as I've said before, if you are a biologist, you accept evolution.
	You don't call yourself an evolutionist, because evolution as a discipline is constantly evolving, of course.
	And so I think that I try to avoid the term anarchy because, not because I'm particularly scared of the term, people can make it mean whatever they want, but because the only just, fair, and rational society is a society where people accept the non-aggression principle and that means by definition that you can't have a state.
	So statelessness is an effect of rational ethics.
	And so I think that's really where I'm coming from.
	Like, the end of slavery was an effect of the extension of humanity to the slave races, the slave class.
	Just as the extension of the rights for women was an extension of the rights for men, and originally it was sort of rich men, then middle class men, then all men, and then so on.
	So I think if you have An approach to freeing the world, which is specific to a word, then you're kind of done, right?
	So you don't hear anyone who says anymore, I'm an abolitionist, because the end of slavery, at least in the old sense, has been achieved.
	So that's done.
	But, of course, the work of philosophy, I think it will never be done.
	There will always be new situations, new challenges, new problems that will come up.
	It will never be done.
	So, let's say that we achieve a free and perfect society.
	What happens?
	Well, then some technological advance occurs.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	The specific concern was that the...
	The technical definition says without government or without law, but ours is like with voluntary government or with voluntary laws.
	So, like, when that word divides of such a stance, should we move on to another word, or should we just ponder on what to call it in the future?
	Like, it'll show up.
	Well, I would not see...
	I don't introduce myself by saying I'm an anarchist.
	What I do is I say, well, I'm a philosopher.
	And they say, well, what does that mean?
	It says, well, okay, let's just say that we take the non-aggression principle and extend it to society as a whole.
	That means that governments are not morally legitimate.
	And that's an argument you can make.
	But, of course, if you introduce yourself as an anarchist, then all of that baggage comes along with it.
	So it prevents you from making an argument.
	And so I think that's the key, is to make the argument, not state the word.
	So, yeah, I think that's fine.
	Okay.
	And another question is that as people learn more about how human beings behave or how science works, how atoms and how even minute particles, it changes all the paradigm, like the way people think and it totally changes how everything works, right?
	So first people For example, when they learned about atoms, they were just Bohr's model.
	And then when everybody was able to know about quantum mechanics, people are able to understand how everything works.
	And then as scientists are getting deeper and more truths are coming out, people are being more aware like I had this experience I was able to learn quantum mechanics as a part of my course last year all that stuff I was able to process everything better and as I learned more from you and And the Ron Paul movement and all the economics of the world and see how the world is being actually run.
	It just gives you more dimensions to learn, right?
	Are you open to changing your philosophy when there are more scientific discoveries or more deeper evidences of how things work or how this whole world is existing, etc.?
	Even in, for example, in the olden days when people lived within their continents, they just know their kingdom and all that stuff.
	And then as they were able to do more geographical discoveries and...
	They come across more philosophies and principles and that's going to contradict or that's going to support your ideas.
	And then now the whole world is, like we people know how big the whole world is and is that why the statists are able to control Sorry, let me just interrupt you because I feel like we're not going to quite get to the question.
	You asked me, am I going to change or am I willing to change my beliefs based upon new reason and evidence?
	I'm sure you don't mean to be offensive, but that is, of course, a highly offensive question.
	I mean, that doesn't mean that you're wrong or anything.
	It's just it's offensive because that's to indicate that I somehow came out of My mother's womb as, you know, with all my existing beliefs as they are now.
	And I haven't changed any of them based upon any reason and evidence.
	In other words, I never went through public school.
	I was never a Christian or indoctrinated into Christianity.
	I was never a socialist.
	I never was part of the mainstream thought processes and so on.
	So, clearly, I don't think anybody's...
	I mean, you could say people are born anarchists or whatever or born voluntarists, but...
	To be where I am, which is to hold positions that I believe are supported by reason and evidence.
	I've certainly argued, I think, convincingly that they're supported by reason and evidence that are against mainstream positions mean that, of course, I have changed my views from when I was born.
	And so new information is always essential.
	New information is, you know, very important.
	There are some things which are never going to be overturned by new information.
	Logic is not going to be overturned by new information.
	And so that's never going to happen.
	There's no new information that's going to overturn empiricism.
	Because all of that new information must come through empirical evidence and therefore will only support it.
	Just as you would have to use logic to argue against reason, you can't overturn reason and you can't overturn empiricism.
	You can't overturn logic and evidence.
	And so, yeah, if there's new evidence that contradicts existing positions, absolutely, of course.
	Yeah, of course you change your mind.
	Because that's what having a mind is, which is to conform to reason and evidence.
	So I think that's worth We've got another couple of callers on the queue, so I'm going to move on if you don't mind.
	James, who do we have up next?
	Chris, would you like to go?
	Sure, Matt.
	Hey, Stefan.
	Hello, hello.
	How are you doing, my friend?
	I'm very well.
	I came into this show a bit late.
	I came in about rounders and baseball.
	I missed the whole awesome parenting moment.
	But I did have a parenting question.
	Because I found myself talking to someone about, you know, the effects of spanking and yelling and threats of abandonment.
	And they came back with me talking about, well, if we don't slap them, then they'll run into the streets, or they'll eat dynamite, or they'll touch the hot stove, or they'll, I don't know, turn off the sun and kill our life on Earth.
	Random acts of fear-mongering.
	And I said, well, where are you in this situation?
	Are you just outside getting a tan while they cause catastrophe?
	Really seems...
	Blame falls on you.
	And they said, oh, well, am I supposed to throw them in a pen or something, like prison?
	You want me to teach them that they are just prisoners?
	So, like, I didn't know how to address that.
	Because, like, how do you deal with it?
	The whole, how do you stop them from running at the stove without initiating some force?
	Well, if you're close enough to initiate force against them, then you're close enough to gently restrain them from touching the stove.
	Again, I've never quite understood this one, right?
	I mean, and what you do is you teach your child what a stove is.
	And, you know, when they're too young to understand what a stove is, you just damn well have to be there.
	There are no shortcuts.
	Sorry, I'm not frustrated at you.
	It's a great question.
	But these parents who think that you can somehow turn a two-year-old or a three-year-old into some remote-controlled helicopter that responds to your every whim...
	It's complete madness.
	If you have a child, that child is going to want to explore, and that child is going to expose themselves to dangerous situations, and so you just have to be there.
	You have to put down the goddamn book, you have to turn off the TV, you have to put on your big mommy and big daddy pants, and you have to just be there with your child consistently.
	You know, when I go with Isabella to the beach, she wants to run into the water.
	She can't swim yet, which means if she trips in the water and falls face down in the water, that's not good at all.
	So I have to be with her within arm's reach at all times.
	That's the deal.
	That's the deal that you sign up for when you get to be a parent.
	I mean, parents are like, I don't know, like they don't want to be there to consistently teach these kids these rules.
	It's like...
	It's like some kid who shows up, you know, gets a job for eight hours a day and sort of around age, sort of, within three hours is like, what, man?
	I gotta be here for, like, the whole eight hours?
	It's like, well, yeah, that's what called having a job actually is.
	And so, yeah, if you have kids, then you have to just be there.
	You have to be there and you have to be consistently teaching them about...
	How things work.
	You have to teach them that these are plugs and they're dangerous.
	And then you have to put the childproof plugs in.
	And then you have to teach them that this is a stove and you don't touch it.
	And then you have to only use the back elements and turn everything away so the handles can't be reached by the kid.
	You have to make sure that they stay close when you cross the road.
	You have to teach them not to run in the road.
	You have to build a fence.
	You have to just be a goddamn parent.
	And the idea of saying, well, I don't want to do that stuff so I'm just going to hit them is pathetic and cowardly and ugly and vicious and violent and nasty.
	No.
	You had the kid.
	Nobody made you have the kid.
	Assuming that this is not some sort of divine inspiration thing that happens.
	But...
	Oh, did we lose me?
	No, I'm...
	Yeah, so you chose to have the kid.
	Nobody made you have the kid.
	It wasn't an immaculate conception.
	And so you're there.
	You protect the child.
	And if you have more kids than you can manage, then you've got to hire a nanny.
	Or you've got to just give up everything else to be there with those kids.
	That's the deal.
	It's sort of like saying, well, you know, I've gotten married, but I still want to sleep around with strange women, and I just want to stay out and party all night, and I don't want to ever come home.
	It's like, no, if you get married, assuming that monogamy is your thing, then that's the deal.
	And if you don't want that deal, then don't get married.
	But the idea that somehow...
	You're not responsible for being there and protecting your kids and teaching them about the dangers of the world.
	And it's ridiculous.
	And you don't have the option to just belt your kid if you haven't taken the time to teach them.
	And I'm telling you, as a parent, look, I'm there all the time.
	I'm there all the time.
	I am within arm's reach almost all the time.
	Now, it's getting a little now.
	She can wonder if she's on a field or whatever.
	Yeah, she can run.
	But yeah, she goes into the McDonald's Play Center.
	I'm going into the McDonald's Play Center with her.
	And that's been the case since she could first walk, before she could walk.
	I am there all the time, and it pays off.
	She doesn't run into the street.
	She listens really well.
	She stops when I call her.
	I've explained, you know, exhaustively the dangers of the challenges.
	She now knows why there has to be sunscreen, and she knows why she can't run into the water, and she knows why wet stairs are dangerous, and she knows all of this stuff.
	But you just got to be there.
	And if you're there, if you're close enough to Hit them, you're close enough to stop them.
	And if you're close enough to stop them, you're close enough to take five minutes to explain why this is that.
	And then explain it again, and explain it again, and explain it again, until they get it.
	But having the option of just hitting them is the illusion of an answer.
	It's like thinking that a law solves a problem.
	It may solve a symptom, but it just makes the problem worse.
	So, I hope that helps.
	Does that make any sense?
	Oh yeah, absolutely.
	Spanking is the lazy parent's answer, right?
	Yeah, makes absolute sense.
	Thank you.
	Very awesome.
	I'm going to...
	Somebody's asked me if I've taken Izzy through airport security.
	Yeah, I've taken Izzy through airport security.
	I mean, they come when I go on trips.
	My wife and daughter come, if they can at all make it.
	And I tell her that it's very important that these people are very helpful and they are going to...
	She needs to put her shoes in the shoe cleaner because people on the airplane don't like shoe smells.
	So, I mean, I don't know how I'd explain the pat-downs to her.
	I'm trying to explain a few things about the world.
	I was chatting with Christina last night about the Greek debt crisis and Isabella really wanted to know what we were talking about and I was able to explain to her what was happening in a way but you know again there's always this mild bit of embarrassment about explaining the world to her and how ridiculous its institutions and situations are but I hope that helps.
	Alright.
	Do we have another question?
	We have another caller.
	Brian, are you ready?
	Yeah.
	Hey, Steph.
	How's it going?
	Good.
	I'm going to switch your letters and call you Brian.
	Please continue.
	Everyone does that.
	I recently watched your discussion with Jake Delberto.
	My first comment is I was quite disappointed.
	Discussion, really?
	Is that what you would call it?
	Well, I don't think it really merits debate, but not because of you.
	I kind of get frustrated that I actually would prefer or dream about a status who could actually give you a challenge, and I guess that's optimistic.
	Anyway, I had two questions.
	I'll ask them in order of priority, in case you don't have time for my second one.
	First one having to that I'm curious why you don't make and then the second question about an argument you make very regularly that I'm not sure is necessarily helpful.
	I was already a libertarian anarchist when I came across you and so I'm very familiar with a lot of the arguments and I feel like your greatest contribution to me has been in how to best communicate these ideas.
	One of the things I really love about you is the Emphasis on morality, pointing out the gun in the room, really hammering hard on that.
	And you did that in the debate with Jake to a degree that actually made him very uncomfortable, which was always very satisfying.
	But you also kind of, I don't want to say broke your own rule, but you engaged him in some of his consequentialist objections to anarchy.
	And discussions about Somalia and how would this work or that work.
	Even though you did consistently hit the morality issue, you did engage them on that level.
	And one of the things coming from the Austrian school as a good stepping stone in my intellectual development that I'm curious if you've ever used as an argument or why I haven't heard you use or even many Austrians in their discussions or debates is...
	It seems to me like this, not a silver bullet as far as persuasion, but as far as intellectual foundation, is the concept that value is subjective.
	That ultimately, anybody who's speaking about the common good or that, you know, in the context of your discussion with Jake was whether or not American foreign policy has overall been more positive than negative, that we're dealing in the realm of values and They can't help but be subjective.
	So does that not make any of these discussions logically incoherent to speak as though we were speaking objectively, that we could determine for others what would be of greater value to them?
	I mean, freeing people by killing them, obviously through their own demonstrated preferences, they preferred to be enslaved to the Soviet Union or whatever dictator than to be dead, or otherwise they would be dead without our help.
	So it just seems to me, again, not that it's a silver bullet persuasion, but really kind of taking a huge step back, and any time someone engages in consequentialism or utilitarianism or any sort of variant of that, why it's not just kind of a good first step to establish that they're basically speaking nonsense why it's not just kind of a good first step to establish that they're Yeah, I mean, I certainly agree with the Osprey in perspective.
	Not that that's really much of an argument, that value is subjective.
	But the problem is that I think most people who are into consequentialist arguments recognize that That value is subjective.
	Even if you can convince them of that, they will still say, yes, but the majority of people want the same thing.
	They want, you know, good education for their kids.
	They want, you know, clean running water.
	They want their food to not have parasites and pesticides in them and so on.
	And so that's what we're aiming to.
	So you can, you know, there's a bell curve of preferences.
	There are, you know, kinky people who want heart disease.
	Wax dripped on their nipples and there are other people who really don't.
	And so I think that you don't necessarily solve it.
	Plus, of course, it's a pretty sophisticated argument to make.
	And you have to go through, I think, a fair amount of processes to get that.
	And so that's one of the reasons I try and stay away from that.
	A debate is...
	It's challenging.
	And I really don't have debates.
	It's a disappointment of mine as well.
	I think that people just don't know what a debate is.
	They just don't seem to understand that a debate is where somebody puts forward arguments with evidence and reason.
	And then if you find flaws in their reasoning, you point that out in your rebuttal.
	And if there's counter-evidence, then you point that out in your rebuttal.
	What seems to happen is we have parallel speeches that occur rather than debates.
	So I will rebut particular points made by my debate participant and then they will just go off in some other direction or make some other speech about some other unrelated thing.
	And it's like chasing a ghost through N dimensions made of fog.
	And so it's not a debate.
	Now, I do think that as a debate participant it is my job to address Arguments that are made and to dismiss the arguments that are made from a meta-argument perspective.
	In other words, somebody says, well, Somalia is X. I think I can rebut the Somalia thing as long as I make sure that I end up with the moral argument.
	But to say, well, I'm not going to argue Somalia because the NAP means that governments can't be valid doesn't help people to bridge From statism to anarchism.
	Remember, I'm not there to debate Dave Nell or Jake Diliberto.
	I'm there to debate them for sure, but my goal is the audience.
	I'm fully aware that my odds of change in their minds is virtually null.
	But there are audience members out there who are going to need help transitioning from propaganda to thought.
	And so if I just completely ignore and repeat sort of NAP property rights, NAP property rights, that doesn't help people build a bridge across that chasm.
	From propaganda to philosophy.
	So I feel it's fine to engage in consequentialism as long as that's not where your argument ends up.
	And that's why I brought it back down to the against me or rather against my daughter argument pointing out the violence and so on.
	That's where it's got to end up.
	So I say, look, yeah, there are alternatives and look, you're making factual errors.
	And of course, the factual errors that he made, he didn't address again.
	And people sort of, they understand that a position is put forward that's not supported and it's not addressed again.
	But then you just want to make sure that you end up...
	And I think I stuck true to my values, which is to point out the gun in the room.
	If the person doesn't agree to drop it, then let's not pretend this is a debate anymore.
	So I agree with you.
	I think there is no such thing as objective value.
	It's definitely true.
	But...
	Statistically, it is true that the vast majority of people want kind of the same things.
	Like, if you sell an iPad for a buck, you're going to sell out real quick.
	There's not going to be people who are like, well, you know, I want an iPad for 500 bucks instead.
	And so...
	There is a commonality enough in people's desires that you can make a collectivist argument semi-stick, if you accept that premise, to say that all values are subjective is, I don't think, counter the bulge in the statistical probability that people will want a million dollars for nothing or whatever.
	No, but when we're talking about violence, ultimately, you know, and again, I agree this is not necessarily exclusive to the Austrian school, but The idea of demonstrated preference can only happen in a voluntary interaction.
	So to sit there and presume that when violence enters the picture that the subjective values of the victim are in any way being respected is obviously false, and especially when talking about war, you did actually make the point that the 20 to 30 million people that the American foreign policy has resulted in their violent deaths certainly One can hardly argue that that was the same as them wanting to buy an iPad for a dollar.
	That their subjective values would more than likely want to be alive, but we can't actually know that until they can express those voluntarily.
	But yeah, it's very wise what you said about addressing them.
	And again, when you brought up your daughter as the against me argument, that was incredibly emotionally powerful.
	And I feel that that's, again, your great contribution to this movement is really learning how to refocus the argument in a way that's That can connect with people on a very morally valid level.
	It's not that you're pandering or engaging in theatrics, but it makes it personal, makes it real.
	But that's the reality.
	I mean, people can talk about...
	I mean, I could talk about this for a while, but I'm going to keep it brief.
	But, of course, the irony was that you have the Christian theologian saying, thou shalt kill, thou shalt steal, while the atheist says, thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal.
	I just thought that was kind of ironic.
	He says that the state is violence.
	He says that the exercise of statecraft is not...
	I mean, is that not just in the service of Satan?
	I mean, even according to the theology, you have this clearly evil institution by the Christian's own definition that steals and kills and throws people in rape rooms and in debts and in slaves and murders at whim and so on.
	It's not moral.
	It is the initiation of force.
	It is against the, you know, at least two of the Ten Commandments.
	And you have the Christian vehemently defending it and the atheist saying that this is completely immoral.
	Which is, you know, I think just another proof that theology is no sure direction to any kind of ethics.
	But, you know, in the Christian theology, of course, Satan is the god of this world, and according to the Christian theology, the state would be the best representative of Satan or Satan's best agency, and so to say we must serve and praise this and expand its power is just, to me, an astounding thing for a theologian to be able to square that circle even within the confines of the religion, but of course, religion has always been in the service of the state, so it's not too shocking, but it's just another one of these things that I found kind of ironic.
	Yes.
	Do you have time for a second question?
	I think I do.
	Okay, and that has to do with your discussion about, you know, when you're the plan to anarchy, so to speak.
	And I do very much support your work and your explanation about parenting, but I kind of feel that the way that you're using that as an answer in some ways is problematic because...
	Not that it's the same, but I feel that it can strike a chord with people's minds the same argument about socialism.
	That, yes, there's the incentive problem, but if we just basically create through education and through the state raising the children that we can create a new socialist man, that that person will be capable of socialism.
	And of course, you know, the second fatal flaw of socialism is a calculation issue, which, you know, even getting rid of the incentive problem doesn't fix.
	But my point is that when you say that basically raising a generation of children not raised with nonviolence will make the state not necessary, or the impulse for the state not necessary, it feels very much like a concession that statelessness is not attainable by normal human beings, people who haven't been raised specifically that way.
	And I feel that that's kind of weakened some of your other arguments, some that you've made To great effect, such as the fact that if it was natural for people to dominate and to basically use the state to have power over other people, we wouldn't need so much propaganda.
	We wouldn't need so much indoctrination.
	We wouldn't need the witch doctor support of the tribal chieftain model that all throughout history, for every power structure, that the Opinion Mulder, the indoctrinator, is a crucial element to that.
	And so, well, absolutely, I applaud the idea.
	And also, I realize that it's you basically taking a very personalized step, saying, well, this is something you can actually do in your real life as a parent.
	I just don't know that presenting that as this is the plan...
	It's a part of the plan.
	I feel like it's definitely a great contribution, but is it, number one, even necessary?
	I was not raised nonviolently, and somehow I ended up embracing actually nonviolence in addition to just voluntarism.
	But I don't necessarily think that our understandings of markets and our understandings of The actual need for the state is more of a euphemism for violence, for people to not only have to confront their own consciousness, or consciences, but also the social ostracization of other people,
	that we could actually attain a stateless society purely through education, purely through the removal of the euphemism of the state, the moral facade, the moral smokescreen that it provides, and the non-violent raising children is simply a great icing on the cake that will help Establish that maybe quicker, but it's certainly not, I would think, a necessary prerequisite.
	Okay, that's a great objection, and you certainly could be right.
	Let me see if I can, if not justify, at least clarify my own position by asking a couple of questions.
	Sure.
	Philosophy is how old, roughly?
	I don't know.
	About 2,500 years, you could argue a little closer to 2,800 years, but it's about 2,500 years ago that Socrates was out doing his thing.
	And how many people do you find who can think philosophically?
	I don't mean agree with everything, obviously, right?
	But who can think clearly and philosophically and not emotionally screwed up and defended and weird and avoidant and attacking and trolly and all that kind of stuff?
	Very few that can do that consistently, but certainly I see plenty that can do that in a specialized field of intellectual discourse.
	If it's specialized, though, that's not philosophical, right?
	Maybe you're right, yeah.
	So this is sort of the way that I look at it.
	Okay, philosophy...
	The arguments alone.
	And Socrates had a pretty damn good push.
	You know, Aristotle, Plato, I mean, you name it.
	I mean, the ancient Greeks, the Romans, you know, even the Christians, the scholastics used a fair amount of reason to try and get their way.
	You know, you could go through all the lists of the greats, you know, the Schopenhauer's and the Hobbes and Nietzsche's and Rand's and all.
	2,500 years, people have been trying.
	To get philosophy across to the masses.
	And it's failed.
	See, I'm just out of patience with everything that has been tried.
	I'm out of patience with everything that has been tried.
	I'm out of patience with philosophy.
	I'm out of patience with politics.
	I'm out of patience with education.
	I'm out of patience with information.
	I'm out of patience with charisma.
	I'm out of patience with language abilities.
	I'm just out of patience because I think trying to get something to work for 2,500 years and it really really isn't working.
	You could make a strong argument that people are less philosophical now than they were a hundred or two hundred years ago.
	Certainly since the introduction of public school it's gone way down.
	And so I'm you know I'm looking at the spectrum of education and politics and philosophy and writing and reading and blogging and webcasting and getting academic positions in universities and all that and conferences and this has all been tried For thousands of years.
	And where are we?
	Government's bigger than ever.
	Yes, absolutely.
	We have some more freedoms.
	We have the freedom to have this conversation.
	So it's not been...
	It's hard to look at the modern world and say this is a net negative compared to 2500 years ago.
	We got rid of slavery.
	We elevated equal rights for women.
	We're starting to think about equal rights for children.
	There has been some progress.
	But fundamentally, it hasn't worked for 2500 years.
	And the one thing, as far as I can see, that has been missing is the childhood, is the parents, is the raising of the children.
	And the science lines up, or I try to line up with the science as much as humanly possible.
	The science is very, very clear on this, or at least about as clear as the science can be in these kinds of topics, that the children who are raised aggressively, they cannot think.
	They cannot defer gratification, and philosophy is fundamentally about deferring gratification, because challenging the status quo provokes short-term anxiety, and you may not even be around to see the long-term gain.
	So it requires significant maturity, the ability to defer gratification, the ability to reason against emotional upset and fear and recoiling and Self-attack and attack of others.
	It requires great integrity.
	It requires great passion.
	It requires great devotion.
	And these things are really not in evidence among the philosophers that I see or have seen around Overly.
	So, I mean, I aim for them myself.
	You know, the degree to which I meet them is not really for me to judge.
	I think that we have tried everything else and I'd go where the science is and We've got a very simple case I mean if it required that everyone get a PhD in Austrian economics in order for the world to be free then the world of course will never be free Because there's a bell curve of intelligence and aptitude and desires and so on but Taxation is theft is a very simple argument.
	It's a very very simple argument now either people are too retarded to To even get a simple argument like taxation is theft, in which case it's never going to work.
	I mean, it's never going to work.
	Then we do require that everyone get a post-doctorate in physics in order for the world to be free.
	That's never going to happen.
	So let's give up, let's go with the tide, and let's stop fighting.
	So I don't believe that taxation is force is an intellectually difficult argument, but I have accepted over the past 30 years that it is an emotionally difficult argument.
	It's an emotionally Catastrophic argument for most people.
	They recoil as if you're running at them with a flaming pitchfork with lasers and sharks attached at the end.
	And so we look to the science as to why people recoil from ideas which are challenging to them and we come right back to childhood.
	That this is where these emotional defenses and reactions are layered in and they can be seen physically in brain scans.
	They can see.
	We can see this occurring in brain scans that people come across a challenging or alarming idea And their fight-or-flight response kicks in, their body floods with adrenaline and their neofrontal cortex shuts down and They then come up with reasons as to why, right?
	After the fact, they come up with reasons as to why.
	And this perfectly accords with my experience of debating these topics for three decades, that this is exactly what happens.
	And we know where that comes from.
	That comes from childhood.
	So that's my particular approach.
	I don't think there's a blend.
	The blend of politics and education and...
	Philosophy and all that has been tried for 2,500 years and we've got bigger governments that are more in debt and control more of the child's education now than just about any time in the past if you count all the way through to the quarter century of graduate work and so on in universities.
	So I'm out of patience with the old ideas, and I'm trying to be as much in accordance with the new science as possible.
	And that's really where my approach is.
	I think that people who want to keep doing the same thing that hasn't worked catastrophically for 2,500 years need to make a very compelling case as to how 2,501 is going to make a big-ass difference.
	Anyway, that's my sort of brief-y thing.
	Let me know what you think.
	Well, thanks.
	I appreciate it.
	That was a good explanation.
	So thanks for your time.
	I appreciate it.
	Whoa, that was almost too easy.
	I just don't want to monopolize any more time.
	I definitely agree that, like I said, the trying things that don't or haven't worked is definitely a good seed for thought.
	I would argue necessarily that some of the developments of the school of thoughts that we, libertarianism, anarchism, volunteerism, whatever you want to call it, are not fully developed until more recently.
	And so to attribute that to 2,500 years of failure, I'm not sure is entirely fair.
	And like I said, my concern with that approach is it makes it feel as though you're basically undermining some of the arguments for the effectiveness of a market to self-regulate.
	I mean, one of the examples I always loved that you gave was how basically political corruption proves that contracts can be enforced without violence.
	Because ultimately what ensures that the politician will, you know, do what he was paid to do is ultimately there's no coercive mechanism and forces purely through reputation and, you know, repeat customers.
	And so things like that I think are very good arguments to show that the practicality of living in a stateless society doesn't require a different type of human being.
	It just requires a different mindset.
	It requires a different I always use the analogy of, you know, if people think that the Earth is flat, and if they sail too far, they'll fall off the end of it, that's going to restrict how much they explore.
	Once they realize the Earth is a sphere, they are no different as human beings.
	Their belief system is now more attuned to reality, and now their actions will reflect that.
	I'm always wary of the idea that we need to somehow alter the fundamental nature of humanity in order for these ideas to be viable.
	But no, Steve, I'm not a utopian.
	I am not someone who says that social engineering is the way to go.
	Because the fundamental nature of humanity is warped at the moment.
	So, as a metaphor I've used before, you know, the Chinese women in the 19th century had their foot, their feet bound, right?
	And crushed back into their heels so they just had to hobble around and so on.
	And if you believe that the future virtue of the human species requires that Chinese women be able to run fast...
	Then the first thing that you should do is look at their feet and say, well, they'll never be able to run fast with these horrible, painful hooves with their toes growing into their heels and mashed agony from having their feet tortured and distorted from when they were babies.
	So you could sit there and say, well, you've just got to will it.
	Well, you've just got to educate yourself about good running techniques.
	But what you want to do is look at the physical capacity of the organs that they're running on.
	And if they are twisted, mutated, and wrecked, Then you have to give up that goal of saying we're going to win the race of Chinese women against the unfootbound women.
	We're not going to win that race this generation because this damage has already been done.
	And I'm not going to further humiliate and attack these poor Chinese women by saying that they should be able to run really fast if they just really wanted to or just educated themselves or just got PhDs in running or went to the right running schools or learned the theory of running physics and lifted with their arms higher and pumped their legs more.
	I'd recognize that the organs that they're trying to run on are too damaged to be able to achieve it.
	So I'm saying let's stop torturing and ripping apart these women's feet.
	And then we will see what the natural foot looks like and then you can win some races.
	But what we need to do is to stop harming the minds of children through aggression, violence, through indoctrination.
	And to me, that's not social engineering any more than it's social engineering to stop torturing women's feet.
	Correct.
	I'm looking for the natural human being.
	I'm looking for the human being.
	I don't think that's the same as the communist thing, which is we can somehow replace the entire mammalian approach to wanting more resources for fewer and preferring that which is closer to that which is further genetically and so on.
	This doesn't interfere with any of that.
	I'm saying let's stop lying to and aggressing against children.
	That to me would be A much more natural human being in the same way that an unbound Chinese woman's foot is a much more natural.
	And that is the natural foot.
	Everything else is horribly inflicted.
	I absolutely agree.
	And as I said earlier, it's not that I disagree with your approach.
	I just, you know, I'm cautious of using it as some sort of prerequisite because to use your analogy, many of us in this movement, you know, spent most of our lives with our feet bound and yet now we are running races.
	And so, to me, it doesn't seem that there's a direct causality, black and white.
	Yes, but the alchemy of that remains unknown.
	The alchemy of that remains unknown, right?
	So, I mean, this was actually the very first Sunday call-in show we ever had, like six years ago or whatever, was, why are we libertarians?
	Why are we voluntarious?
	Why are we...
	Now, it could be that we're more intelligent.
	Well, that's not going to help us, because intelligence remains a bell curve.
	So, if you have to be super intelligent to be a libertarian, the world will never be free.
	Maybe it's because we had particular life circumstances.
	Well, those life circumstances are particular to us and can't be reproduced.
	Or if they can be reproduced, let's create a life circumstance called no aggression against kids and everyone will be fine.
	So, until...
	I mean, if we could figure out, you know, if you cast this spell on someone, they become a libertarian, then let's go cast that spell on people.
	But the alchemy...
	Of how we become a libertarian, and I've been asking this question on the message board and the call-in shows with listeners for years.
	I don't know.
	Maybe somebody's figured it out, and I've never heard of it.
	I doubt it.
	We don't know the alchemy, the eruption of the third eye that can see the truth.
	We don't know how to recreate that.
	And it certainly is not spreading as fast as is necessary, right?
	I mean, it's true that there are probably more libertarians every year, but there are also more status every year.
	World population tends to be going up.
	And the majority of the world's population is born into highly status or highly religious societies.
	And so it is a problem.
	So I agree, yeah, there are some of us who can run a pretty damn good race.
	But, of course, the reality is we're still tied to everyone else who can't because we're all part of the same society.
	So I think that we do need to look at growing the crops that can reach the sun of truth, so to speak.
	That's all very good.
	Thanks, Steph.
	I appreciate it.
	Thanks.
	And that reminds me, somebody sent in a great criticism of my argument, which is to say that governments tend to invade other countries to take over their tax system, and therefore an anarchic society would be much less likely to be invaded, or at least for that invasion to take.
	And somebody pointed out two examples.
	The Native Americans, obviously in the 15th, 16th century, 17th century in North America and South America, of course, the Natives, And Iraq, where you say, well, did they invade Iraq to take over?
	No, it was the natural resources that they were after.
	So I have some issues with those arguments.
	I would not characterize the...
	The occupation, brutal though it was, of course, with millions of natives dying from disease and aggression, I would not characterize that as an invasion in particular.
	I mean, it was a colonization, which is, you know, this may be semantics.
	I think it's slightly different.
	Because it was simply an expansion.
	It wasn't with the goal of taking over the whole continent in the way that Iraq, of course, you invaded to take over the whole country and so on.
	So it was just like spreading paint rather than painting a wall.
	It was like spilling paint.
	That's sort of how it spread.
	So I think it's slightly different from that standpoint.
	Of course, there's no question that the natives were decimated, and the lack of acknowledgement of that in the US culture, I think, is still one of the reasons that drives this aggressive foreign policy.
	Crimes which are not acknowledged almost tend to be perpetually repeated, and the Iraqis are just the new Indians.
	I don't think that's quite the same as to say it's an invasion.
	Iraq is an interesting example.
	Iraq, of course, is where a stateless defense has won.
	I mean, let's just be clear.
	Let's be honest.
	Stateless defense has won and has crippled America, has crippled the American economy.
	And, of course, as you're probably aware, there are more deaths from suicides because of the extended trauma of these tours of duty.
	The more deaths from American soldiers from suicides than there are from Enemy attacks.
	The American economy has just been decimated.
	And so this tiny stateless force has won against a military that has literally hundreds or thousands of times the spending in destructive power.
	And so I'm not sure that Iraq is a great example of how statelessness can't resist an invasion from a vastly superior force.
	But I think the major reason that I wouldn't put These two situations in the same as a stateless society was because they were not stateless societies.
	The Native American society was incredibly hierarchical and very primitive and brutal towards its own children, of course, which is why there was no progress.
	It was a stagnant culture.
	No operas, no iPhones, no growth, no free market, no challenges.
	Incredibly mystical, superstitious, and primitive culture.
	And so this is not exactly the pinnacle of philosophical enlightenment.
	That is to be a ruler-less society where all human beings are created equal and children are treated peacefully and so on.
	It's not how these societies were.
	So I wouldn't count that as, you know, just because there wasn't a government doesn't mean that there weren't rulers, as I sort of repeat.
	And so, of course, a stateless society would have about the most advanced violence technology that could be conceived of, and so it would not have the lack of firepower, I
	really do appreciate that point for coming up.
	Alright, next, this is the last call.
	If you want to go in overtime, Daniel, you're up.
	Hello, can you hear me?
	I can.
	The pipes are calling.
	Alright, so I've been listening to your podcast up to about 650, so those are the shows about six years ago.
	Why so slow?
	Have you been injured?
	Were you in a coma?
	No, just kidding.
	Go on.
	Alright, so I've heard you say several times that you can learn everything you need to know about someone within the first five minutes of meeting them.
	Is that true?
	I mean, no.
	I mean, you can't learn where they were born and whether they have a mole on their left leg, but I think that the important aspects of their personality can be clear very quickly, yes.
	Yes, I meant what's important.
	Sorry to be annoyingly clear, but I just want to be clear for those who may have not heard those statements.
	Okay, so I'm a little bit inept in social situations.
	So I kind of lack self-awareness and I tend to lack understanding of other people's motives when I'm talking to them.
	And I'm just kind of wondering what sort of stuff you try to listen to when you're talking to people.
	Can you just be a little bit more clear?
	And also feel free to tell me what you're feeling right now.
	I sense that you are feeling quite strongly at the moment.
	Well, I just have a hard time actually expressing myself.
	Well, I think you're doing very well right now, so...
	I just...
	I find myself...
	Just being really uncomfortable actually joining conversations like just small talk even makes me really uncomfortable and I'm just wondering if there's like any way of actually working through and actually being comfortable in normal conversations and just Knowing
	when to actually open up to someone, if there's any way of knowing the difference between people who may be somewhat less understanding and telling the difference between people who are going to be nicer.
	Right, right.
	But first of all, I really appreciate the...
	The vulnerability and honesty that you're bringing to what we're talking about here, you know, passion, emotion, feeling, sorrow, excitement, joy, these are all indicators of what is important to us.
	So I really want to applaud you for having the honesty and the courage to speak up about something that's really, really important to you.
	So first of all, I just really wanted to Give you massive respect and props for that.
	Thank you.
	That's a real gift.
	It's a real honor to have somebody talk honestly about what is very important to them to the point of this kind of passion.
	So I just really wanted to tell you how much I respect and appreciate you trusting me for that.
	Yeah.
	So small talk is your issue.
	So can you sort of give me an example of a conversation that you would have a tough time joining?
	It's really...
	All conversations.
	It's not really anything in particular.
	It's just actually being comfortable enough to actually say what I'm thinking.
	Why do you think that it's hard for you to say what you're thinking?
	And I say this with the full acceptance that there may be, and probably are, very good reasons why you're not comfortable saying what's on your mind.
	But what do you think it's hard for you to say?
	It's, um, I think it has to do with my, uh, partly with my self-awareness.
	I really don't understand how people actually view me.
	And then I constantly second-guess myself on actually talking and actually letting people know what I think.
	Right.
	Right.
	Can you tell me what your infancy was like that you know of?
	Well, I vaguely remember being significantly more talkative when I was younger, about eight, I think.
	No, no, infancy.
	Infancy.
	We'll get to eight.
	Let's start with infancy.
	Infancy.
	I mean, I know you don't remember it, right?
	But from what you've heard, was there anything that was discontinuous in your infancy or anything that was out of the ordinary?
	The only thing I can think of is I used to crawl without bending my knees.
	I would just have my hands and my feet on a line crawling, and that's about all I can remember from my childhood.
	Was your mom home with you?
	Oh, yes.
	It was...
	I went to school until about first grade, and then it was homeschooling from then on out until college.
	And so when you were a baby, your mom was home with you?
	Yes.
	Right, right.
	And how would you characterize your mom's emotional availability?
	Um, I would, I don't really remember talking to her very much.
	Was she your homeschool teacher?
	Yes.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	And there was a homeschooling co-op group that I would be a part of.
	And that was about it as far as homeschooling.
	It was her and about two other...
	Sorry, just to understand.
	So you're saying that you don't remember talking to your mom very much about stuff?
	That's right.
	Why do you think that was?
	I don't really remember wanting to talk to you.
	Wow.
	Why do you think that was?
	It's a mystery.
	I don't really know.
	It's probably not.
	I hate to say it.
	It probably isn't a mystery.
	Okay, um...
	I can ask you, well, so let's say that you were to call your mom up now and tell her what you're telling me.
	How would you feel about that?
	Or how do you think that would go?
	I don't think I'd even be able to start.
	Why is that?
	Because, um...
	It...
	I don't really think she actually...
	Stopped any conversations with me, that it was more me not talking to her.
	To come to her now would seem like I'm coming to her a little bit late.
	Well, I would not say that it would be on you that there was problems in the conversation.
	Problems in the relationship.
	You can call this bias, you can call this whatever, but this is my perspective.
	Problems in the parent-child relationship are the fault of the parent.
	I mean, I believed that before I became a parent.
	I believe that even more strongly now that I am a parent.
	Because you're sort of saying, well, it would be me coming to her too late or it would be me, whatever, right?
	So, when you were sad or you were upset or happy or excited or whatever, did you not talk about it with your mom when you were younger?
	I guess you didn't.
	I mean, but tell me if you did or remember doing that.
	Of what I remember, my childhood was, I would say, quiet.
	That...
	I never really got upset enough to show any sadness or anger, and that is a lot like what I do now, where I can listen to conversations, but then I don't actually be enjoying and let people know what I'm thinking or feeling.
	Right.
	Right.
	But, of course, you did when you were an infant or when you were a toddler.
	That would be happiness and sadness and all that.
	This mutedness would probably not have been part of your makeup.
	So, I'm still trying to sort of understand why you couldn't or didn't talk to your mom or why your mom didn't encourage that or pursue that with you.
	Well, I'm not really sure what to tell you.
	What about your dad?
	My dad, he was, I'd say, it was sort of the normal nuclear family sort of situation where he would go to work about nine to five.
	And I wouldn't really talk to him too much either.
	Right.
	Why do you think they weren't interested or more interested in what you had to say?
	Well, when I was a lot younger, I would ask these sort of convoluted hypothetical questions like, what if people had noses like the trunks of elephants, what we would do with them?
	Sorry, that's the questions that you would ask your parents?
	Yes, situations like that.
	Boy, that's a completely delightful question.
	I really do.
	I don't remember really being all that clever in any of the uses.
	I would come up with it.
	It seemed like they didn't really offer any ideas of their own as far as the situations go.
	Sorry, can you just say that again?
	You just cut out for me for a second.
	Okay, that I wouldn't have any really intelligent ideas and that they wouldn't really...
	Help me come up with clever uses for this sort of ideas.
	Right.
	So, when you say, what if people had noses like elephants, how would they deal with that?
	What was not intelligent about that?
	I mean...
	It would just sort of be the question.
	I would ask them, what could people do with those noses?
	And then I don't really remember the conversation going anywhere after that.
	Why do you think or do you have an idea what would have happened to that kind of conversation?
	No.
	Let's go back a bit because I recognize this is like trying to struggle through fog.
	So I really appreciate you hanging in there and good for you for doing so.
	Let me ask you this.
	So, at any given day when you were a kid, and this, you know, roughly, how much time would you spend having any kind of non-trivial conversation with your parents?
	When I was younger?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Of what I remember, during home, I would only talk to her during the math lesson in the morning, and then I would be on my own most of the day.
	And then we would eat dinner together.
	I'm sorry, you would be on your own most of the day?
	Yes.
	I'm not sure I understand that.
	I would sort of play in my room or somewhere in the front yard.
	And then I would mostly not cause any problems, so I would be on my own.
	And you have no siblings?
	I have three siblings.
	Where were they?
	They would be around...
	Like, sometimes we would watch TV together, but when I would play other games, I would pretty much play with my own toys and then they'd do something else.
	But, maybe I'm missing something, but isn't homeschooling supposed to be a bit more involved on the parents' side?
	Yeah, I think so.
	So you'd get a math lesson in the morning from like what?
	9 to 10 or 8.30 to 9.30 or what?
	Yeah.
	I think I would spend close to an hour on the math.
	And then?
	And then it was pretty much just math.
	And there were some reading assignments.
	And that was about it.
	Alright, so is it fair to say that your mom would basically homeschool you for an hour a day and then the rest of the time you'd be...
	You'd have to figure your own thing out?
	I'd say that'd be pretty fair.
	And how does that strike you?
	What do you think of that?
	Yeah, when I started college it seemed like I needed to do some catch-up work, but it didn't really...
	I only needed to take two remedial classes, so it didn't really feel like I was that far behind.
	I'm sure you're smart.
	I don't mean in terms of education.
	I mean in terms of...
	Look, if you spend most of your childhood not having conversations with people, it seems to me entirely natural, tragic, but natural, that you would have trouble making conversation.
	Yeah.
	Does that make any sense to you?
	Yeah.
	And look, I'm not trying to say this is obvious.
	Nothing's obvious from the inside.
	Really clear as if I'm saying, well, obviously.
	It's only because I'm not inside.
	And again, I want to be really tread carefully here because I certainly don't want to give you any conclusions or observations that don't mesh with your experience.
	But as the proud father of an incessant chatterbox, she starts talking before she wakes up in the morning and she will talk in her sleep.
	And I don't know how she inhales during the day.
	She talks so much.
	And It is fantastic.
	It's delightful.
	And I think she talks so much because of the listening.
	Because I'm really interested in what she has to say.
	I'm really interested in what she's thinking.
	I'm really interested in her experience.
	I really want to know what's going on for her.
	And so Isabella talks all day.
	And I love it.
	And I tell her all the time, I love your words.
	I love the conversations.
	She calls them our sweet chats.
	And...
	She is very good at making conversation with people.
	She needs a little coaching, you know, she wants to chat with someone, she'll go and chat with them and I'll, you know, say, you can ask them their name, you can tell them what you did today, you can tell them about your froggies, you know, all this kind of stuff.
	And so with a little bit of coaching, she's very good at chatting with people, but that's because she's had a huge amount of experience.
	And learning how to converse Is, I think, sort of a skill like any other.
	I don't think we're born with it.
	I don't think that it happens like puberty, just whether we like it or not.
	I think it is a skill that needs to be taught and learned.
	And it sounds like you had a pretty conversation-starved childhood.
	Is that an unfair way of putting it?
	No.
	Um...
	Yeah, as my sister described me as a child as being one of the most talkative people that would really be quiet as far as the hypothetical questions like people with elephant noses.
	And then I quickly became very quiet.
	Right, right.
	Yeah, look, there is something in parenting.
	It's not in all parents, but there's something in parenting, I think, where people, and particularly if they're kind of concrete people, in other words, if they're just, you know, the world is like this, they're kind of black and white thinkers, they don't have a lot of self-knowledge, they don't have...
	What Christopher Hitchens called a sort of secular ironic mind which can appreciate twists of logic and humor and so on.
	If people are just kind of concrete in their thinking, it just doesn't necessarily have much to do with intelligence, but then a child's, quote, flights of fancy are not seen for what they are, which is rehearsals in logic.
	I mean, Isabella is constantly casting me as roles in her plays.
	Daddy, you be the magic froggy.
	Daddy, you be the butterfly who landed on my finger.
	Daddy, you be one of my magic ponies.
	And that's what we do.
	And this is not frivolous.
	It's like an old acting teacher said to me once, play like children play very seriously.
	And that's very important because repetition and rehearsal is how we learn.
	And fantasy play It's very serious.
	The questions that you were asking were very serious questions.
	You know, there's this, oh, isn't that cute, pat, pat, what, imagination thing?
	But it's very important and very serious what children do in their flights of fancy.
	And when it comes up, I mean, it really does erupt out of children, and this is what it did for you, and maybe it was alarming to your parents if they didn't know how to respond to it or didn't respect it or didn't, I mean, I don't know, who knows, right?
	But that's a very important part of you.
	I mean, I think it's a very important part of everyone.
	I think that imagination is associated with intelligence.
	Imagination is associated with empathy.
	You know, I was very proud.
	The day my daughter said, those horsies are not coming to us because we're strangers to them, which was a couple of months ago.
	Fantastic.
	It means she can put herself in the mind of a horse and see herself as a stranger.
	What an amazing leap of empathy.
	Fantastic.
	Wonderful.
	Beautiful.
	But that comes out of a lot of flights of fancy.
	You be this person, I will be the other person, shifting in and out of different mindsets.
	This is all to do with growth, the growth of empathy, of connectedness, of self-knowledge, of knowledge of the other person, of intimacy.
	So creative, imaginative play is essential, I think, for the spiritual, for want of a better word, growth, the holistic growth of the sleek and soulful human animal.
	And so, I'm sorry for a long speech, but if you have problems with conversation, which I hugely sympathize with, the first thing that I would suggest to look is, you know, if I had never been taught math, I wouldn't say, I have a problem with math.
	Because that wouldn't actually be accurate.
	It may be more accurate, I would suggest, that it's more accurate to say, not, I have problems with conversations...
	I don't know how to differentiate people I can talk with and trust from those I can't.
	But rather to say, I have a deficiency because I was not taught these things.
	Either through theory or through continual practice.
	And I think that would be a closer and more truthful statement.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yeah.
	Because that means that you're not broken, right?
	There's just something that you weren't taught.
	And I think it's really tragic that you weren't taught it.
	It doesn't mean that you can't learn it.
	You're obviously a very smart fella.
	But it's not something that's broken in you that you broke yourself or something that's deficient in you, like you're just weirdly short or something like that.
	You just weren't, as you say, interacted in a continual way.
	Where people were positively enjoying your creativity and conversation.
	And if you sensed that your parents didn't like it or couldn't handle it or avoided it or whatever, then you're going to shut it down.
	But that doesn't mean it's dead.
	It just means that it's kind of underground.
	You can dig it up.
	These bodies never die.
	But I think there's something that I wasn't taught.
	And this is why therapy, I think, is always great, particularly with these kinds of problems, because you get a chance to talk to someone In a way that maybe you haven't had for years.
	I think therapy has very strong positive effects on things like social anxiety and so on because the therapist is a conversational fine-tuner where you can actually have a meaningful conversation with someone in a structured setting where you know that person is trustworthy or at least assuming that you feel comfortable with that person.
	So, you know, I always feel like a bit of a broken record, but I would say, you know, I think it's important to try and talk to your parents and figure out what was missing for you or how they felt about your conversations as a kid.
	I think it's probably important to try and figure out why you were...
	I don't want to say left alone because you had siblings and your mom was in the house or whatever, but why there was less interaction than I think would probably have been helpful when you were a kid to just try and understand all of that stuff.
	And it's just a way of mapping the causes of where we are because we don't want to mistake things that were done to us as us because that's just not an empirical reality.
	That's not a factual reading of the situation.
	And so I would map this kind of stuff out, and there are ways of alleviating it, but I think you have to correctly identify where the deficiency came from, if that makes sense.
	But tell me what you think.
	Sounds alright.
	You sound extremely unenthusiastic, which is fine.
	fine.
	I'm just wondering what your experience is of what I'm saying.
	It would just be really It would just be really hard to actually start the conversation.
	Oh, I totally get that.
	And I'm certainly not, you know, maybe do this with the therapist's support and all of that.
	I'm certainly not trying to do something that's torturous or unpleasant for you.
	But what I, you know, the reason, one of the many reasons that I suggest talking to parents where there have been problems in the parenting is it helps us to cut ourselves some slack for what happened when we were younger.
	So let's say that you're 20 or whatever, right?
	So, or 25.
	You said, I think you're in college, I can't remember.
	So let's say you're 20.
	If you can't achieve a conversation with your parents that's sort of satisfying and meaningful, or with anyone, when you're 20, it It gets you off the hook for what you were able to do when you were 2.
	I think that's a really important thing.
	If you're unable to achieve some sort of connection or get some sort of information out or achieve some sort of intimacy with your parents when you're 20 or 25 or 55 or whatever, then what it does is it really gives you some peace about what you were able to do when you were 2 or 5 or 10 or 15.
	And I think that's one of the reasons why...
	Now, if you can, then fantastic.
	It means that...
	You know, you can start making some healing and hopefully bring the relationship closer and deal with some of the issues.
	But if you can't, if it's just a blank wall and you can't break through, even after a number of tries, then I think you can accept that it never was possible.
	It certainly was not possible when you were two.
	You know, whatever you can't do when you're 25, you sure as hell couldn't do when you were two.
	So I think that's just a way of getting some peace and taking the responsibility off yourself for what happened when you were a kid.
	All right.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	I just wanted to circle back for a sec because you sound displeased with what I'm saying, which obviously I'm perfectly fine with if you're displeased with what I'm saying.
	That's perfectly fine.
	Was there something else that you were looking for from me or some other tip or feedback that would be useful?
	No, it is pretty much what I was expecting to hear.
	I kind of felt like there was a problem for over a decade now, and I haven't really made any progress.
	This is a good environment to pour your heart out in, I'm telling you.
	I really do care about what's going on for you.
	I really will do everything that I can To try and help.
	And I really do take what you're feeling very, very seriously.
	So if you want to just tell me what your frustrations and fears are, I'm absolutely happy to hear.
	And if you want me to turn off the show as a whole and just talk to me, I'm fine with that too.
	But this would be maybe a good time to just talk about what's going on in your heart, because it certainly sounds like you're quite stressed and worried about this stuff, which I can completely understand.
	Yeah, Just when I'm having a conversation, it kind of feels like I only have two gears, if that makes sense, where my voice is just kind of flat and I don't really show my emotion, or it suddenly becomes too strong to actually keep talking.
	The emotion becomes too strong?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Well, I mean, I would guess that you may be hungering a bit for connection, right?
	Do you feel lonely?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I mean, if you didn't get it strongly from your parents, maybe not from your siblings, maybe not from others, then there's kind of a moat around you, right?
	Does it feel like that or am I reaching up the wrong tree?
	Um, yeah.
	I... The way I would have described it is, it just feels like I'm bashing my head against a brick wall.
	And there's just no way to actually get through it that way.
	Does it feel like, I'm just trying to really empathize here, does it feel like there's a strong buildup of emotion and need that would kind of blow the circuits of a more casual conversation?
	I try to, just casual conversations, stay as calm as I can and then most of the time the topic just seems too trivial to actually talk about whatever's going on, like the weather or whatever people normally talk about. like the weather or whatever people normally talk about.
	Thank you.
	So I don't really add what I want to say because anything I think I could actually add just seems trivial as well.
	Right.
	Right.
	The image that came to my mind, and it's just my image, so it may have nothing to do with your experience, but the image that came to my mind is, you're a guy who's been hungry for a long time, and you're sitting down to eat with people who just had a big lunch a couple hours ago, so they're not that hungry.
	And you kind of have to pretend that you're not that hungry either, but at the same time you're absolutely starving, and that's kind of disconnected.
	Does that mean anything to you, or is that way off base?
	Yeah, it seems right.
	And if you show everyone how hungry you are, they're going to be like, whoa, why has this guy got his face halfway up the turkey's ass?
	Right?
	I mean, it would be like the intensity of what it is that you're hungry for may be unsettling to people.
	And maybe that's sort of an experience of what your parents experienced when you were a toddler.
	Yeah.
	You know, because there is this feeling, right, that if we give people what What they want, then their hunger will only increase.
	In other words, all needs are an addiction, right?
	So if you give a coke addict some cocaine, you're only feeding his addiction and making him worse.
	And so when people have a need for connection or hunger for it, then other people may feel like, oh, that's going to consume me and they're going to cling to me and they're going to attach to me and stalk me and all this kind of stuff.
	But I don't believe that's the case.
	I think that if there's something that is legitimate, that is needed, and if it is provided, then that's not addictive and it doesn't make it worse.
	So if somebody is lonely and they get contact, it doesn't make them lonelier.
	It doesn't make that worse.
	If somebody is using a behavior or habit to mask pain, then...
	Satisfying that pretend need, that avoidant need, only makes the pain worse because the pain further gets ignored and self-medicated.
	But if you actually directly address the pain, put your healing hand on the wound, people feel better.
	But there is this fear that if we express our needs, then other people are going to react to us like we just burst into flames and have jackdaws flying at our eyeballs or something.
	But I think if you find people that you trust and you express your legitimate needs and preferences, that people...
	Wise, caring people will respond well to that and you'll feel better.
	But I think that given the built-up hunger of loneliness and lack of connection that you may be experiencing, I would strongly suggest again that if you talk to a therapist who may specialize in social anxiety or loneliness, I really think that would be a very powerful thing for you to do because you can learn these skills.
	You can learn how to connect with people.
	You can learn how to interact with people in a way that doesn't feel like you're Another image I get is those guys who manipulate the radioactive material.
	They've got these walls that they go up to where there are these big arms that go through the walls and they manipulate everything from a distance.
	That may feel a little bit how social engagement is for you, but there are ways to deal with it positively and productively.
	It can be painful, but I would not put it off because the longer you're lonely, the harder it is to find your voice.
	Alright.
	Yeah, um...
	I've only made small, weak attempts at actually finding a therapist, and I guess I just needed a little bit of a kick to actually push me towards going through with that.
	Well, I hope so.
	I hope you will do that.
	Everybody who wants to get to the Olympics of the true self has to get a coach.
	That's my approach.
	But tell me, what was your experience of the conversation?
	What was it like for you?
	Yeah, this is what I was hoping for.
	Emotionally, how do you feel now?
	Yeah, emotionally, how are you doing now?
	Yeah, um...
	I'd say I'd feel good.
	I...
	Yeah.
	Go ahead, go ahead.
	I kind of thought I'd feel a little bit tired, but...
	I feel good.
	You feel more energized?
	Yeah.
	That's because I'm making you panic!
	In spite of light is kicking in, and you're ready to roll.
	But...
	Yeah, no, well done.
	People in the chatroom are saying well done, giving you huge sympathy.
	And look, you're not alone in feeling this kind of anxiety.
	You really are not alone in feeling this kind of anxiety.
	I feel it from time to time as well.
	I go to a lot of new places, meet a lot of new people.
	Sometimes it can be...
	It's a little challenging to get into the role of things, so you're certainly not alone in this, and I hope that you get that.
	This is an experience that isolates, but it is not an isolated experience.
	It's sadly common, particularly among smart people, particularly among creative people.
	You can deal with it.
	You can solve this if you take the right steps.
	The reason I suggest therapy is I mean, I'm certainly not a therapist and I wouldn't know how to solve this problem for you.
	I can sort of give you some philosophical insights or some self-knowledge bits that I've gleaned over the years.
	But I think it would take somebody who's got a good deal of skill and training to help you deal with this issue on an ongoing basis.
	But you can certainly do it.
	But the reason that I strongly suggest a therapist is that I had a very lonely childhood.
	And As I said before, my therapist said something very wise when I was contemplating continuing in the beginning.
	She said, problems that are caused in isolation cannot be solved in isolation.
	Problems that are caused by isolation cannot be solved in isolation, which is why, as the enforcer says, only connect.
	Connect with other people.
	And that is the lifeblood.
	Of our existence.
	We have an umbilical cord that our soul needs, which is intimacy and connection with other people.
	And if you have not had that, tragically, horribly, growing up, then you need to find a way to grow that umbilical that can connect to other people.
	And I mean, in my experience at least, a therapist is the best.
	Person to approach in doing that.
	And I hope that you will give it a shot.
	And I really, really just really want to tell you, I can't tell you how much I respect your courage and honesty in talking about this stuff.
	I bet you this was not a whole lot of fun call to make, to contemplate and so on.
	But I just, I think you did fantastically.
	I hugely applaud your courage and commitment to growth.
	And I hope that this is the beginning of a turning point that a therapist can help you with.
	All right.
	And if you do get a chance, drop me a line and let me know.
	Let me know how you're doing.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Well, take care, my friend, and well done again.
	And I'm very sorry that you didn't get what was necessary for you.
	You sound like a perfectly delightful kid, and I wish I'd had a chance to chat with you when you were younger, too.
	All right.
	Sorry we went a little bit over, but important calls as always.
	And I really, really appreciate everybody's incredibly kind generosity.
	Donations, donations, donations.
	Always want to remind people that we've got a good deal of the footage.
	The script is done.
	Good deal of the footage is beginning to be pulled together.
	And we're in contact with some musicians and I'm going to start working on the first five minutes of the documentary.
	Should be done relatively soon and then we're going to start crowdsourcing some of the funding because I'd really like to pay some of the talent that's going to be involved in the documentary.
	I'm trying to professionalize the show a little bit more.
	So some of the technical resources that are necessary I would like to start paying.
	I think that six years on we can move beyond the You know, benevolent amateurishness really on my side of asking people for stuff for free.
	So I'd like to start paying.
	I think that's reasonable at this point in the show.
	And I hope that you will think of contributing to that.
	I think we can still do a huge amount of good.
	There's still so many people we have not yet talked to about reason, self-knowledge, virtue, and evidence.
	So if you'd like to chip in to help, oh, can't tell you how much.
	I would appreciate that.
	I had a bunch of subscription cancellations lately if people lost their jobs and so on.
	They'll hope to be back, but it's always hard to tell when.
	So if you'd like to go to freedomainradio.com forward slash donate, I would hugely, hugely appreciate whatever support you can muster.
	And if you've got no money, no problem.
	Then just feel free if you'd like to share stuff around videos or podcasts or whatever yanks your crank as far as freedom main radio goes.
	And just a reminder to tune in to the Corbett Report.
	Hey, is that website back up?
	I think I was like, oh my god.
	The day after I did the show, the website for the Corbett Report went down.
	Let me just see here.
	CorbettReport2Ts.com Are we back?
	I'm sure it is.
	But I will be doing the Corbett Report tomorrow.
	Midnight, actually, Eastern Standard Time.
	So I hope that you will be able to check that out.
	I've got a really good short.
	Yes, it's back!
	The Corvette Report is back.
	I will be doing that show.
	Tomorrow night, midnight, there will be a call-in.
	So if you would like to talk about that stuff, that would be fantastico.
	I look forward to listening and talking to you about that.
	So we're going to be more on the financial side.
	I'm going to do some stuff on the Eurozone crisis, which has been of great and enduring interest to me.
	And I hope you will join in with that.
	I will also be on the radio, 430, I think, 430 EST. On Friday on Irish Radio.
	And because, you know, it's always good to go back to my roots.
	And so I hope that you will be able to check that out.
	I will post a link on the Free Domain Radio message board.
	I've got a bunch of other stuff coming up, which we will get to.
	Thanks for everyone who showed interest in joining coming to the Free Domain Radio message board.
	Private Island Extravaganza.
	We're still working on that.
	And I will post more details as it becomes available.
	That is going to be a super special once-in-a-lifetime, remember-forever kind of time with some really great people and just the most beautiful environment that you can conceive of.
	So I hope that you will be able to check that out.
	And let me just see here.
	Why can I not find any of my...
	I'm sorry.
	I'm just trying to find my...
	I'm just trying to find my summer speaking engagements, which I should have got memorized by now, but which I don't.
	Here we go!
	Alright, so the summer tour extravaganza, which is coming up startlingly quickly, must prepare speeches.
	I hope that you, and all of these, I'm going to be around for a while, so it's not just going to be, I'm not bungeeing in and out to do a speech, but of course I'll be at the Libertarian Party of Texas June 9th, 2012 at lptaxas.com I will be doing a libertarian conference called Moving Ideas this June 11th, Sao Paulo, Brazil.
	Porcupine Freedom Festival, I will be in from Thursday through Sunday, June 21st to 24th, Lancaster, New Hampshire.
	You can go to porkfestwithac.com.
	Freedom Fest at freedomfest.com, July 11th to the 14th in Las Vegas, Nevada.
	I will be doing Capitalism and Morality, a fabulous UPB presentation, July 28th in Vancouver, British Columbia.
	Don't come to see me.
	Come to see the brains of the outfits.
	Rick Rule and Doug Casey and others will be there.
	Second annual Liberty Cruise.
	So please, if you're interested, look at it now and sign up now because we've kind of got to make a decision on that one.
	FDRURL.com forward slash cruise2012.
	That will be October 15th and 19th.
	Out of San Diego, California, right after Libertopia.
	Did I mention Libertopia?
	Libertopia, 11th to 14th of October, San Diego, California, Libertopia.org.
	I will be emceeing and speaking and be around with my family the whole time.
	And Toronto Liberty Festival website to be announced, Toronto, Ontario, November 3rd, 2012.
	I will be all over that.
	And yeah, I think at the LP thing in Texas, I'll be doing a panel discussion With Tom Woods.
	And so that should be a lot of fun.
	Certainly I'm sure you've heard of him probably long before you'd heard of me.
	So that's it for my speaking engagements.
	More coming in.
	I'll let you know as we finalize things.
	Have yourself a wonderful week.
	Thanks again to Laurel and Lynn UnpluggedMom.com And look forward to your donations.
	Have a great, great week everybody.
	So proud of us all.

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