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March 27, 2012 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:07:22
2117 Hunting Future Love - A Listener Conversation

A listener tries to deal with his girlfriend's anger issues.

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Time Text
Yeah, hello. Hello.
Yes, hi, Stefan. How's it going?
It's doing pretty good.
How are you? I'm well, thank you.
I'm very well. So, how can I help you, my friend?
Okay, well, first of all, thank you.
Thanks for your time. It's very much appreciated.
No problem. My pleasure.
I'm sorry, it took a little while.
Yeah. Just want to know, I'm a huge fan of you.
We actually have a libertarian group here in Montreal, and...
We talk a lot about the things you mentioned in your podcast.
I appreciate that.
Thank you. Okay.
So, as I mentioned yesterday, so basically, my girlfriend, she gets mad for petty things.
For little things, for bigger things.
But she basically gets mad very often.
And then she knows about it.
And she knows that she has to work on it.
And we always make up, you know?
But it's just that nothing changes, right?
So we always have...
There's always this fight going on about nothing.
And I'm always there.
And I basically end up always just shutting down because I don't want to argue about...
About whatever is going on and I guess sometimes it usually escalates that for her and she just gets angrier.
Can you give me an example?
Okay, so let's say I came just yesterday.
Yesterday I came in home and I had two smoothies for us and I dropped one.
You bastard.
I'm totally with her.
I mean, I don't know.
I'd tackle you. Anyway, go on.
So, you know, it's a huge mess outside, like, between the door and outside.
And it's a huge mess.
It's freezing, and the thing is freezing while we're trying to wash it.
And, you know, it's the end of the world, right?
So, that's one example.
You know, Google's hysteric about things like that, you know?
Like, I have a lot of girlfriends that I know that They would probably laugh at it instead of being angry, understand?
Right. So I would consider them little petty things like that.
Now, of course, there's some things, you know, because we live together, and, you know, I work full-time, I'm pretty busy, and, you know, sometimes I leave a few things on the floor, you know, I don't wash the dishes, and, you know, it's a huge, huge problem for...
You bastard!
Sorry, no, I already did that one. Go on.
Sorry, I shouldn't laugh. Go on.
Okay. Generally it happens that she's just in a bad mood for some reason.
Sometimes she can't distinguish.
So she's generally in a bad mood.
I'm sorry to say this, but we've been for a long time.
I don't think there's one day she wasn't in a bad mood.
And so I'm worried for her.
And of course, you know, it's not really easy on me.
So I think it's time for us to maybe to be a bit proactive after so long, maybe to be a bit more proactive about maybe...
Trying to change things.
Alright. Do you want to tell me more?
Where do you want to go from here?
Okay, well...
I mean, I have a bunch of questions or comments already, but...
I just want to...
There's one thing I'd like to point out is that It's like, I would characterize it as having two girlfriends because she can be a wonderful girl, a wonderful woman, very joyful, very nice, very playful.
And within the same minute, she can turn around and become completely, really angry, just because something takes her off.
Something that generally would be passed by as, you know, nothing for the general population.
So she gets angry pretty easy, but I just wanted to mention that she can be very joyful and she's a very good-hearted person.
It's just that she's got this anger thing, this anger problem.
Right, right. And how long have you been together?
Almost seven years. We've moved in just this year together though.
And does she always have this issue?
Is it better or is it worse than when you first met?
I think it's No, it's much better than when we met.
So over time it has gradually decreased.
She has gradually been less and less violent.
Violent in a way, not physically violent, but emotionally violent.
She has drastically decreased over time, yes, but it's still there and it's still pretty hard.
So she was really bad in the beginning.
Sorry, what does that mean?
What does that look like when you say emotionally violent?
Just screaming at me.
Screaming at me, calling me names.
Not very harsh things.
You know, just asshole or...
Or... Or...
Maybe fuck you, maybe once in a while, but...
Your definition of harsh in mind may be a little different.
Okay, her language is not as...
It's the way she expresses it.
Very... Like, you know, she's going to slam the door, for example, very often, very hard.
When she's in an angry period, for example, she's going to be very physical.
She's going to slam the door, she's going to make noise, she's going to...
Scream about something.
She's going to call me a name.
And it's just the energy that comes out of her is horrible.
It's extremely negative.
Right. And how long do these episodes last?
Five to ten minutes.
Then she calms down. And we usually make up right after or the same day.
We often talk about it.
And it always comes down to, you know...
Well, actually, no.
She always tells me, well, you have to accept me how I am.
No, no, she doesn't.
Yes. No, she doesn't.
No, she couldn't say that.
No, because she's not accepting you for how you are, right?
I mean, screaming and yelling at someone is not...
I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but I mean, that's just so absurd.
No, I haven't seen that. Because she gets angry at you because she's not accepting you for who you are, right?
Yes, I guess so. So how on earth can she say that you need to...
I'm sorry, I know it's not funny.
That just blew one of my eyebrows right off.
I've got to reach down. I've got to pick it up off the floor.
Well, see, I haven't seen it that way.
Am I wrong? I mean, tell me if I'm wrong.
No, I think you just open up a door here because I think you are right.
I mean, that's mad.
I mean, I'm not saying she's mad.
Just that argument is not exactly UPB, if that means anything to you.
It's not universally preferable.
Right. You're supposed to be accepting of her, but she's only angry because she's not accepting of you.
So how come she gets to be not accepting, but you have to be accepting?
How come you have to be accepting of her non-acceptance if being accepting is such a great value?
Because I would see her answer as, well, it's because you started it, right?
You made me like this, or you made me mad because you didn't do the dishes, for example.
Right. Okay, so let's keep going with this.
So you had no problem with temper before I came along.
No, she had. Oh, okay.
So, obviously, I didn't make you like this since you had this problem before I came along.
You know, it's like me saying to my wife, you made me bald.
And then she sees a picture of me when I was 30 and she's like, hey, you were bald.
That doesn't really work, right?
I agree totally. Thank you for pointing that out.
Well, don't thank me yet.
It may not be that much fun for you if you point this out to your girlfriend, right?
Because this is not...
Also, okay, so listen, I don't want to interrupt you.
If you've got more to say, I'm happy to listen.
These are just the thoughts that popped into my head for a sec.
Oh, no, you can go ahead.
If something comes up, I'll let you know.
Oh, no, a lot has come up for me already, but I don't want to interrupt you when you're talking.
Okay, so... There's a very sharp contrast between...
It's like if there were two people inside her, you know?
Because when she's really nice, it's like the purple girlfriend.
And when she gets in this anger mode, it's completely atrocious, right?
It's like, how in the hell can I keep up with this?
That's what I'm asking myself, right?
And my answer to that is because I know that she's At least I know she acknowledges that she's got this problem.
I know she's had a rough childhood and I love her.
That's the reason I'm staying with her.
I'm sorry, what is the reason you're staying with her?
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't.
I mean, what the hell do I know? I don't know at all.
I love her, right?
I love her. And fundamentally, I know that she understands that she's got a problem, and I do know that she went through a hard time.
No, sorry, if she's blaming you for her problem, then she doesn't understand that she has a problem.
Like, if she's saying, you're doing this to me, then she's not acknowledging that she has a problem.
She's acknowledging...
Then you have a problem, right?
And that's not quite the same as acknowledging that she has a problem, right?
Yes, yes.
But we had a few conversations.
I remember a few conversations, like a much more deeper conversation that were dwelling more into the feelings in the past.
And fundamentally, she does acknowledge that there's something that...
There must be something behind this anger, right?
Sorry. When did you first talk to her about her temper?
Oh, I don't know. It was probably a long time.
Seven years ago, say? Yeah.
So, what is the progress in seven years?
Like you said, the progress has been...
There's something behind it?
I mean, that's not much progress, is it?
No, I agree.
There's... I wouldn't qualify that as a huge progress.
If there is any semblance of progress, it would be a decrease in the intensity of the anger.
And how often does it happen now?
Huge things, maybe once a week, once a month.
But every day, there's always going to be a bad mood side of the day.
What does that look like?
It's just basically a puffy face.
She's just not smiling.
Sullen. Sorry?
Sullen is the word that pops into my head, but I don't want to interrupt you.
Sullen. In a general bad mood, and it looks like she's looking for something to argue about, or...
So generally, basically, you're asking me how it looks like.
It basically looks like...
No, sorry, what I asked was how often do these episodes occur?
And you said maybe once a week, once a month, a big fight, but every day there's a bad mood of some kind?
Yes, that's right. Right.
And what do you love about her?
I'm sorry? You said that you love her, and I'm not questioning whether you do or not, obviously, but what do you love about her?
I love her kind-heartedness.
She has a very good heart.
Sorry, I've got to stop you there.
Okay, I know, Stefan, I know.
I know, and I'm just asking you annoying questions, and I apologize for being annoying, but...
No, no, it's okay. When you say that, you know, she's got this really, really bad temper, then you say she's kind-hearted.
Because when she isn't in a bad temper, when is the other girlfriend, you understand?
When she's in a good mood...
Well, actually, it's more than that.
I love her because deep down inside her, I know she's a good girl.
I know that she's a good person.
And the reason why I know that is the good side of her and the consideration that she has for little things for me.
There's the... There's not one occasion like that I don't get a flower, there's like St.
Valentine's or something like that or she's gonna write me letters and she's gonna, you know, she's gonna put time in something to give it to me, you understand?
It's not like she's gonna go buy me a present and offer it to me.
She puts a lot of time in writing letters or poems or Just making pictures and just giving them to me for no reason, right?
So I feel...
And so that's how I feel her love also.
And... Why I love her?
I mean... I just feel that she's...
Deep down herself, she's a good girl and...
And that she...
She's also very honest.
She's a very honest person.
There's a lot of qualities that I respect in her person.
And these qualities would help me like her as a person.
Right. Okay.
I just wanted to get that understanding.
So sorry, go on.
Well, I kind of lost track of where we're at in the conversation.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Oh, sorry about that.
You were talking about how often it happens, and you were saying that it's become a little less intense, and we were talking before that about whether she acknowledges this is a problem, and you said she thinks that maybe there's something back there, but she also has this thing where she says that It's you who are causing these issues.
Yes. Right.
Yes, that's right. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
So if we finish with that topic, I'm going to have some general questions.
Okay. When you were a child, what was your history with people's temper?
You mean how I reacted to people's temper?
No. What was your exposure to people's temper?
In other words, did you have exposure to people who were very aggressive?
Oh yeah, my whole life.
My dad. There hasn't been one day my dad has not screamed at my mother.
I guess that's why I'm able to shrug it off and not take it personal and just live on.
I just... It's like if...
Everything she gets in a bad mood, I just...
It's like, you know, it goes through one way or...
It doesn't even go through my ears and I just block it.
I guess that's how I was...
Yeah. Does she know this about your history?
Oh, yeah. I mean, because she lived for one year or two years with me, with my parents, actually.
So she knows that you have a history where...
You were exposed to, as you say, your father's temper.
Yeah. I was never actually...
There's a lot of violence in the house, but it was more towards my mother.
I was never... My dad never...
My dad always screamed at me.
Or more at the situation, you know, and more at my mother.
But yeah, I was exposed to it on a daily basis.
It was really bad when I was really young.
Maybe until 10, 12, and then it just gradually decreased.
But yeah, I remember really bad times.
It was really crazy. Right.
Right. And...
And are your parents still together?
Yes. I don't know how my mom survived 30 years of marriage.
I was going to say you're pushing seven of almost marriage, but we'll get back to that.
Yeah. But the difference with my mother is that she, you know, Well, now that I think of it, I guess there's not much of a difference.
It's just longer Yeah So basically So basically yes, I've been I've been exposed to two bad tempers all my life and And from her side, she has also been exposed to that.
Her father committed suicide when she was young.
Oh, boy. And, you know, she was back in Russia.
It was a really hard time at that time.
I guess it was still communism.
I think the wall hasn't fallen yet.
So she was in Russia and there were just crazy things going on.
As you can expect.
In times like this in Russia.
I think she had worse childhood than me.
I think she saw more violence than I did.
Maybe my dad never hit my mom, but it was basically a lot of screaming And tell me what you're thinking and feeling now I'm sorry? Tell me what you're thinking and feeling now, if this is a new connection.
I'm sorry, I'm losing your voice.
Sorry, tell me what you're thinking and feeling now, if this is a new connection for you.
You mean about this conversation?
I feel thoughtful.
I'm just trying to, you know, things are going through my head.
I'm feeling sunken in thoughts right now.
It's not a general feeling of just...
I'm peaceful right now.
I'm not angry.
Right. So basically...
I guess what I would...
Maybe there's one thing I could point out is...
You know, whenever there's this tantrum, she gets angry.
I tend to, like I said, to shut down, right?
Because I just...
You know, I try to talk it over, try to approach her, try to calm her down.
It never works. I found out that the best thing for me was to actually shut down and just close myself in the room, just leave her alone.
And this is how...
Do you really think that's the very best thing for you?
The very best of all possible things in the world?
To survive it? To grit your teeth and get through it?
To reactivate all of your childhood defenses?
Because there's a kind of inevitability, you know, where she gets angry and the best thing for me to do is to Shut down, to calm her down, to manage her.
It's like, I don't think that's the very best thing for you to do.
Does that make any sense what I'm saying?
Yeah, well, I mean, this is what I found that works best for me because I don't stress about it.
No, I'm not being clear.
Let me be more clear. It would be best for you if this didn't happen.
Oh, yes, of course.
Well, but that's important.
Yes. Because you've got to raise your standards.
It's not the best thing I can do when she's raging or whatever.
Alright, okay. No, the best thing for you is for this not to happen.
Yes, I agree. I didn't express that properly.
I meant in the context of since it happens, what to do about it.
Not that Look, let me ask you.
Can you live with this?
I mean, if this never changes, is this okay for you?
No, well, I told her that.
Now it's... I told her no.
Sorry, let me put you... Sorry, go ahead.
Go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt. Go ahead.
No, no. It's no.
And when did it stop being okay?
I'm sorry? When did it stop being okay?
Because, I mean, seven years you've been...
I mean, you're pretty much married, right?
I mean, common law, you're married, right?
Yeah. Okay, so you're pretty much married, and so for seven years you've been married, and this has not been a deal-breaker, right?
It has. There's two moments in our relationship that it went pretty close to a deal.
It's not a deal-breaker because you're still there.
I don't mean to simplify it, but it's not a deal-breaker because you're still there.
The behavior is still occurring and you're still there.
And I'm not saying you like it, I'm not saying you haven't fought against it or anything, but it hasn't been a deal-breaker, empirically, right?
Because this behavior has been occurring and you're still there, and it's still occurring.
That's right, it has, yes.
And you say that she's interested in changing it, but you know when someone's interested in changing behavior?
It's when they really do stuff that is measurable to change the behavior.
In other words, she says, wow, I have a problem with my anger.
I have a problem with my temper.
So, if you have a problem with your temper, what's the first thing you do?
You get help?
Yeah, you got anger management, right?
She doesn't want to see a...
She doesn't have to see a shrink.
She doesn't have to see a therapist.
I mean, I think she should, because I think just about everyone should, but no, seriously, I think we should.
I mean, even people raised in good families are still in a dysfunctional society we have to adjust to.
I still think it's a useful thing for everyone to talk to somebody who's really good at this stuff, which is obviously not me, because I'm just an amateur, not even, right?
But if somebody's like, wow, I have a problem with my drinking, I should go to AA or whatever.
I don't know. What do I know, right?
But I have a problem with my temper.
So what happens is they open the book to the yellow pages and they look up anchor management.
They say, oh, here's a guy. He offers a five-week course and it's 40 bucks.
And I just sit there.
It's not therapy. I just learn techniques like count to 10 and breathe and take a break and learn to identify your triggers and all this kind of stuff, right?
I am actively engaged in solving this problem.
That's how you know when somebody is interested in solving a problem.
No, I agree.
She says it to me, Victor, I don't want to.
I just don't want to.
I don't want to change. Yeah, so she's being pretty clear.
Yeah. Now, does she understand that since you grew up with somebody raging in the household, that this rage is incredibly bad for you?
Because it triggers all of your childhood experiences.
Does she understand that? I don't know.
Of course she does. That's why I asked you if she knew about your childhood.
Maybe she knows about my childhood.
She knows about my parents. Maybe she doesn't just connect it.
I've never mentioned Ru like directly, you know.
But she lived with your dad, right?
So she obviously saw your dad's temper, right?
Yeah. So for instance, if I was dating a woman who was raised by an alcoholic and I showed up to a date drunk, do you think that would be bad for her?
Yeah. Of course it would be.
Because she was raised by an alcoholic.
So if I show up drunk to a date, what is that going to do to her?
It's going to trigger all of her history, right?
That's right. So you were raised by the screaming banshee of a dad.
And so when she does this, she knows that she's reactivating all of your history.
She knows that. Maybe she knows that I'm conscious.
Maybe she doesn't know conscious because if she knew that and she was conscious about it, she wouldn't do it, right?
Because if she knows...
Oh, I don't know. I don't know.
She's not doing it by purpose. It's just it happens that she's angry.
What do you mean it happens? It's not like she wants to be angry.
Oh, so she has no choice in the matter?
She has no free will. There's nothing she can do about it.
She has free will. She chooses to be angry.
Okay. Okay. Look, I'm not saying that she's sitting there rubbing her hands saying, ah, I'm going to exploit his childhood weakness and blah, blah, blah.
And I don't mean weakness. I'm not saying she's some sort of Bond villain.
Like, I'm not trying to imply that.
But what I'm saying is that if she knows, she knows directly and immediately about your history.
And how much you suffered as a child from people raging, right?
Yes, well, I think she suffered...
For that year, she was with me.
I think she suffered just as much.
Yeah, let's not worry about her suffering at the hands of your family right now.
Let's just worry about your suffering at the hands of your family.
Right. Okay?
Because she was an adult.
She chose to be there. You were a kid.
You didn't, right? Yeah.
Like, my sister, she's...
I mean...
Right.
You want to talk about everyone but yourself at the moment, right?
Yeah. I just wanted to point out that my sister turned out to be an extremely angry person, but I didn't.
Well, let's not jump to conclusions yet because we're still exploring a whole bunch of stuff that you haven't noticed before.
I'm not an angry person.
I never get angry. But the reality is that you might be managing your anger through managing your girlfriend's anger.
You know what I mean?
To say that you didn't turn out to be an angry person when you're still surrounded by an angry person that you're managing, it may just be a way of managing your own anger.
I don't know. Maybe.
Maybe you are an angry person.
Maybe you're angry at yourself and this is your punishment.
No, I'm not angry at myself.
Really? Come on!
Not even a little bit? For continuing to expose yourself to this kind of anger?
No, I don't feel angry about being with her.
I'm not saying that you should be angry about being with her, and I'm sorry for being unclear.
What I'm trying to say is, do you think that it would have been helpful or better to stand up for better behavior from her earlier?
Oh yes. And better for her too, right?
Because you're enabling her anger, right?
It's not good for her that you're not drawing a line in the sand, right?
Because she gets to continue to behave badly, and that's not good for her.
I mean, if you care, if you really love her, right, you've got to say no.
I agree. I can't enable this.
I can't. I agree.
And so if you haven't done that for seven years, that could be kind of frustrating, right?
When you look back. No.
I don't feel frustrated about it because...
I would feel frustrated about it if I took all of this personally and if I found that it diminished my...
My well-being, but it's just in the moment of the tension that, you know, I feel annoyed and I just feel...
Come on, come on, come on.
You have to be straighter with me than that.
And you have to be straighter with yourself than that.
I don't mean to be harsh about it.
But if you're trying to tell me that if you're raised by a person who has rage issues and then you continue to date with a person, date a person who calls your asshole, who's occasionally told you to fuck off, who rages, who storms around looking for fights, who's in a bad mood every day, who blows up once a week or once a month in a big fight, this continuation of that which was probably the most harmful to you as a child, if you're going to try and tell me that that has not diminished your well-being, I don't think that you're being honest either with yourself or with me.
That's worth even continuing the conversation.
You have to be more honest with yourself, at least, than that.
Of course it has diminished your well-being.
Well, I'm trying to process it through.
I mean... No, no, but seriously, you understand why I'm saying that.
Of course it has diminished your well-being.
Yes, I agree.
If I was, say, with someone that was a very peaceful person...
I acknowledge that would probably feel better, yeah.
Okay. That's because that we have to be clear on, right?
I mean, I only say this to you because you've listened to a lot of stuff that I've talked about, so you're not somebody who's just fresh off the boat, right?
No. So it is not good for you, right?
No, obviously. I mean, if it wasn't, I wouldn't be speaking to you.
Right. Okay. I wouldn't be trying to get, you know, third-party input, so...
If she had to choose between you and her temper, what do you think she would choose?
Oh, ultimately it's me because like I said, there has been two periods.
I think it was a year ago or maybe three years ago where we basically almost broke up.
I almost basically broke up where I told her, listen, this is like either you stop this or we're over, right?
It has happened.
Well, then what happened?
And so she... For a period, maybe a month or two, she really calmed down and there was no problems and then gradually came back.
Oh, so she can do it?
Yeah, I think so.
But that's kind of important, right?
Because you said earlier it just kind of happens to her.
In what way? Sorry, you said about her anger, her temper, it just kind of happens to her?
But she was able to stop doing it for a month or two, right?
Was it?
It was a long time ago. Maybe two years ago?
Well, okay. Let's say it was a week or two.
That means that she has some capacity to not do it.
If she has enough of an incentive.
Now, I'm not saying that that's enough.
You just grit your teeth and change, right?
Yeah. But it means that she can control her temper if she has a strong enough incentive to.
Yes. Right.
And that incentive is when I stand up.
Well, but then you sit down again, right?
Yeah. Is that right?
Because she then begins the behavior again and you don't push it again, right?
Yeah. Do you want to have children?
Yes. With her?
I want to have a lot of children.
She wants to have children, but I told her there's not going to be any children before she gets that fixed.
That's for sure. That's my prerequisite.
She knows about that. And how old are you?
27. And how old do you want to be when you have children?
I was thinking starting getting children pretty late, actually, because I'm just starting a business.
So maybe around 30 minutes, maybe 2-3 years, start maybe having a child.
So you want to start having a child in 2-3 years?
Yeah. And do you think...
No, I mean, as long as she's not much older than you, then it's certainly possible.
She's younger than me.
Right. And...
How long do you think it's going to take for her to reliably and consistently not get angry in this way?
Two, three years. Including, and not just at you, but at children.
Because children are a lot more difficult to deal with than adults sometimes, right?
This is true.
I mean, sometimes she gets angry, you know, at the cats.
She's not only angry with me, she's angry with her friends, too.
No, I got it. She's got a problem with anger.
I get it. It's not you.
I get it. You're a symptom, right?
It's good to know it's not just me.
Of course it's not just you.
Of course it's not just you.
In fact, I don't think it has much to do with you at all.
No, I agree, because she has been like that before she met me, and she's like that with other people, so yeah, for sure.
You think it's going to take her two years, and how much work do you think it's going to take from her over a two-year period to no longer...
I mean, nobody's saying she can't get angry.
Of course, everyone gets angry.
There's nothing wrong with that. It's just the way you handle your anger.
Yeah, of course, it's the way you handle your anger, and it's how you talk to yourself about your anger.
She has to have a whole different set of self-talk, right?
Yes. So, I don't know.
I don't know how...
It's pretty hard, I guess.
Well, I mean, look, you're the one who's planning a family, and your plan seems to be, I want to build a house, I'm just going to throw some bricks in a field and see what happens, right?
That's not a good plan.
Well, no, because I'm not throwing any bricks before there's a foundation.
Of course you are. Of course you are.
Don't you understand? You are making yourself into who you are by who you're with.
I agree with that, yes.
So, let's say that in a year from now, you think, well, you know what?
This is not going to work out.
I don't know. Maybe it will. I don't know.
I'm just theorizing, right? Right.
Well, that's been eight years that you have not developed the habit of peaceful negotiation with people.
That's been eight years that you have re-experienced Some of the bad, bad things in your childhood and manage them rather than moving away from them and dealing with them and letting all of that calm down.
Right? Right.
That's eight years of bending backwards to accommodate people rather than being assertive.
Do you understand? Every day that you're in a relationship that is a reenactment of certain aspects of your childhood further erodes your possibility of not doing that in the future.
Well, why? You mean not doing that?
Well, it's like saying, why does every day I sit on the couch not help me run a marathon?
Because you're not running a marathon.
Because you're not exercising.
You're not stretching. You're sitting on the couch.
So every day that is a repetition of your childhood is a day that you're not developing the skills that you didn't develop as a child.
But rather, you are simply using all of the horrible skills you developed as a child over and over.
You know, the muscle we exercise gets stronger.
The muscle we don't exercise gets weaker.
And you're exercising the muscle called repetitive management of other people's anger, which is something you developed as a child.
And what you're not developing is self-esteem, self-assertion, productive non-management of other people, but rather a negotiation with other people.
Okay, I have very low self-assertion, but I have high self-esteem.
I'm willing to hear that theory.
Tell me how you have high self-esteem when you put up to this kind of behavior.
Maybe I think I have heart. Sorry? No.
Tell me how the theory of high self-esteem squares with exposing yourself to this kind of behavior for seven years when you were involuntarily exposed to it for 20 years before.
Because I have...
I feel I have a good heart and I know that she's ultimately...
Crazy about me. And if I left her, it's the end of the world.
And actually, I was leaving her basically two years ago.
It was over. And it was just...
She was a complete wreck.
I mean, I couldn't leave her because if I left her there, she would have probably committed suicide.
Well, and does that remind you of anyone in your past?
No. In my past, nobody wanted to...
No, but anybody who was dependent upon your presence and would have been devastated without you?
In my family, or...?
Well, yeah, could be.
No.
Not that I can think of.
What popped into my mind, and of course, this is, you know, tell me if I'm wrong, and this is just what popped into my mind, is your mom.
I wanted to mention my mom, yeah.
I mean, that's what popped into my mind, which doesn't mean anything, because what the hell do I know, right?
But that's just what popped into my mind.
I am my mom's little boy.
She was devastated, I just said I moved out after 26 years living in the family.
Right. Right.
Right, because she doesn't want to be left with your dad, probably, I don't know, right?
Maybe, I don't know. So, I mean, these are the kind of patterns that I would argue that you don't have forever to change them, my friend.
You know, we always have this, and like I say this for a bitter experience, and I say this from somebody who's made lots of mistakes in relationships.
So, you know, please understand, I'm not trying to, you know, I'm not coming from a position of like, oh, well, I always had all the answers, and here's, you know, you need to do this.
I don't know what you need to do.
But I will tell you this, that I almost didn't make it.
I almost was in those relationships so long That I did not have the ability to change.
Because we don't have forever to change.
No, we don't. I agree. And you understand that the aspect of your relationship that's giving you the most trouble appears to be a repetition of your childhood.
Yeah. That's correct.
And how long have you been listening to this show?
Oh, I haven't been...
Like, to be honest with you, Stefan, I've watched, I think, all of your videos on anarchy, but not so much about any other subject.
Yeah, I got it.
I started to laugh. Because it always surprises me, you know, when people say, oh, I've been listening to your show for a long time.
And then I say, well, this seems to be similar to something in your childhood.
And they're like, really?
I'm like, how can you listen to this show and never think that?
But if you've only done the sort of political anarchy stuff, then yeah, I mean, that makes sense.
So I understand. I did watch your Brain in the Brain, the Bomb in the Brain series.
Yeah. I'm not sure if I watched all of it.
I think that was one of the most boring things you've done.
Because it was very statistical.
It was hard for me to grasp.
Right. No, it's no problem.
I understand. But I do understand.
But actually, no.
I am aware of the childhood equation because you talk about it, right?
That's how I actually...
I know that most of the fucked up things that are going on in people's minds are mostly due to the childhood.
And I learned that through some of your podcasts.
So that's how I know it. And of course, you knew enough to call me up and not talk about anarchy, right?
Yeah. Good, good.
I think that was wise. Alright, so I can give you what I think.
And then you can tell me to go to hell.
If you like. If you like.
Now, please understand, these are just my opinions, right?
You know I'm just an idiot on the internet.
So these are just my thoughts and opinions about...
Your situation, but I will tell you what I think, since you obviously...
I assume that you can tell me if you don't want my opinion, but I'm certainly happy to share it.
share.
Oh, you can go ahead.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, it doesn't sound to me, And you correct me any time I go astray if I'm saying something that's not true.
It doesn't sound to me like your...
wife, common-law wife?
I don't know. It doesn't sound...
I don't want to call her just girlfriend. She's fiancée.
Oh, when are you planning on getting married?
We're not planning on getting married.
She's your fiancée, but you're not planning on getting married?
Yeah, I was just more...
Does it mean something different in Quebec?
Fiancée means you're engaged, doesn't it?
Yeah, it's an engagement, but it's more symbolic.
She wanted a ring, so I gave it to her.
She wanted to ring, but she doesn't want to get married?
She wants to get married.
I don't want to get married.
This may change what I'm going to say.
So she thinks that you're her fiancé, but you don't think that you're her fiancé.
How pretty is this girl?
Tell me that. She's average.
Alright. Okay.
I don't know what the hell's going on with this ring thing.
I guess it doesn't really matter in particular.
Well, maybe it does because...
Hold on. You gave her a ring that says we're going to get married, right?
That's what fiancé is, right?
Yeah, but it was more like maybe in the future or something like that.
That was more... Sometimes I feel like...
Did you give her the ring and say, will you marry me?
No, it wasn't like that.
You said, here's a ring, maybe we'll get married at some point in the future.
Yeah, something like that. The hell was the point of that?
Because... Oh, she would have got mad if you didn't.
No, because I wanted to make her happy.
Because I knew the ring meant a lot to her.
And what does the ring mean to her?
It means you're going to get married, doesn't it?
It means...
No, not specifically.
It means to her that she's...
What are you talking about?
It does specifically mean that.
If she's your fiancé and you gave her a ring, it means that you're going to get married.
Yes, okay. But it means – I think what it means more is to be – I think she actually told me that like this ring represents – it grounds me.
It basically assures me that we're going to stay together for a long time.
You understand? Right.
Which is called getting married.
No, no, because not necessarily.
You don't need to get married, right, to be in a couple.
No, I understand that.
I don't mean marriage like a government certificate.
I mean marriage like a commitment to stay together.
Yes. You understand?
Yes. Marriage is, I'm going to stay with you, and in particular, I'm going to stay with you to raise children.
I'm not going to have three kids with you and then take off with my secretary.
That's what marriage means. Yes, and that's my plan too.
With her? Yes.
Okay, so you're planning to stay with her, which is called getting married in my book.
And you've given her a ring which says, I'm going to commit to stay with you.
And she has accepted the ring saying, that's good, because now this means you're going to commit to stay with me.
Have I got that right?
Isn't that marriage? If you say so.
Well, no. I don't make up words.
I'm not trying to make up things.
For me, marriage is...
I don't know why.
For me, marriage is just a government piece of paper.
When you say marriage, to me, I think of the government.
Okay, fine. So forget about the government, but the commitment to be with her, the commitment to stay with her, the commitment to have a family with her, that's in place, as far as I understand.
Yes, of course. Okay, okay.
Well, no, not of course, because it's a little confusing, right?
Okay. I mean, I know it's Quebec where everybody's shacking up, but, you know, I mean, because legally it makes no difference, right?
I mean, common law of marriage, it's a marriage, right?
Yeah. I don't know, what is it, a year or two that you live together and you're just married, right?
Yeah. Okay, but so it's the ceremony that, you know, that troubles you.
Not as much as ceremony, it's the contract.
No, because the contract, look, the contract's there already.
Because you're common law, right?
It's not the same thing.
I mean, there's no possibility for divorce.
What do you mean? I mean, if...
She can't file for divorce and take half of my earnings, for example.
Why can't she take half of your earnings?
Because we're not married, right?
No, but you're common law. You need to talk to a lawyer.
You need to look this up. Common law is not, we signed a lease together.
The common law is, you know, I'm no lawyer, right?
I mean, this is just my understanding is that common law is pretty much married.
That's my understanding. I don't know.
I have no idea, Stefan.
Well, you might want to look into that.
It's quite an important topic.
Look, if you're in a relationship that you have questions about and you're living together and that puts you in legal obligations, you should check that out.
Look, because I don't know.
What the hell do I know about Quebec law about this?
I'm just saying, please, please, promise me you will check it out.
Yeah, I will, actually.
Please, please do. It's not living together after a certain period of time.
It's much more than that. Anyway, so let's get back to, if you want, my sort of thoughts.
Okay. Look, I don't know how you undo seven years of being yelled at.
Oh, yeah. I don't know how you undo that.
Look, I don't know, because, you know, my theory, it's not just my theory, it's like you need five or ten times as many good experiences as bad experiences, and if the experiences are really bad, it's a lot more, right?
Yeah. And so if you've...
Because, you know, you say, well, this blow-up's happened once a week or once a month, but you don't know.
Sometimes it's clustered, sometimes it's further apart, and if she's in a bad mood, it can always go that way.
So the nervousness, the fear of it happening...
It's pretty continual, right?
It's not exactly.
I don't wake up or come back home.
No, no. What I'm saying is that when she's in that bad mood, as you say happens every day, you have no guarantees that it's not going to get worse, right?
No, I know. So it could.
So there's an uneasiness around that.
I'm not saying you sort of live peeing yourself every day in terror.
What I'm saying is that there's an uneasiness around it, right?
Yeah. If you don't agree, tell me I'm wrong.
That's fine. That uneasiness is actually, yes, I think that's the right word to describe it, but only during the tantrums, or during the fight, or during the anger.
No, but when she's in the bad mood, you say, right?
Yeah. You say she's in a bad mood every day.
That's for some portion of the day, right?
Yes. Right, and there's some uneasiness around that, because you don't know if it's going to escalate or not, right?
You mean during throughout and between the tantrums?
No. So there's the tantrums and then there's the bad mood, right?
And the tantrums come out of the bad mood, but not every bad mood leads to a tantrum, right?
Right. So when she has a bad mood, you don't know if it's going to lead to a tantrum or not.
Pretty much I know it's going to lead to a tantrum.
No, because you said she was in a bad mood every day, but she said the tantrums are only once a week or once a month.
Okay, what is a tantrum for you?
Well, whatever you said about once a week or once a month, right?
There's a big blow-up, a big fight, a big problem, right?
I'm just going by what you said.
Look, if I misunderstood or if you want to change, that's fine, but we have these two things.
We have the bad mood, which is every day, and we have the blow-ups, the name-calling, the whatever, that is once a week or once a month, right?
I would say there's a mini blow-up every day and there's once a week, once a month, there's like a bigger one.
Okay, but you still don't know if the mini blow-up is going to be the big blow-up or not, right?
No, I agree. So there's an uneasiness around that.
That's all I'm trying to say. Because, you know, looking back, you can say, well, it's been three weeks since we had a blow-up, right?
But for those three weeks, you don't know that it's going to be three weeks.
Could be any day, right?
Yeah, okay. So I'm just saying there's a certain amount of uneasiness around that.
That's... And given that this only feels not insane to you, sorry that's a strong word, this doesn't feel weird or bad to you simply because it was the norm.
If I understand your description of your childhood correctly, it was the norm when you were a child.
Well you need to denormalize the shit out of this for yourself.
You need to look at this woman like Your little toddler son is going to look at this woman.
Your little helpless toddler son at home with her all day while you're at work.
How's he going to do?
He's going to do real bad.
Well, your words, not mine, though I'm not going to disagree.
Because he's not got these skills, and I don't think you want him to have to develop these skills that you have, right?
I agree. And I also don't think it would be fair on your son, on your daughter, to put her into an environment With a volatile and moody mob.
I think it would be totally irresponsible and I wouldn't consider that to be moral.
That's the reason why I promised myself not to have a child with her before she gets it fixed.
Right. Right.
But the problem is, my friend, you have seven years Of grooves worn into this relationship of it being fine to not get fixed.
I don't mean fine like you've never had a problem, I know you've had two threatened breakups and so on, but you're still there, you gave her a ring, you're making the commitment and so on, right?
Yeah. Okay.
That, you gotta not do.
I'm sorry? You gotta not do that, in my opinion.
You can't be sliding towards this Marriage, I use the M-word, because it is.
I mean, you can call it whatever you want, but it's fundamentally a marriage, right?
You can't be sliding towards this.
That is not good.
So, this is my opinion.
This is what I would do in your situation.
And if it's any consolation, I've had to do something very similar to this, so I have some experience in this.
You have to say, look, this is partly my fault.
It's partly my fault. In fact, a lot of it is my fault because I am more interested in self-knowledge than you are.
But I have let this moodiness, I have let this hostility, I have let this abuse, I have let this rage continue.
I agree. I 100% agree with you, Stefan.
Let me finish. And I'm telling you, I want to have kids.
I know what it was like.
To grow up in this kind of environment.
I'm not saying that you, my dear, are the same as my dad.
I mean, obviously, it's not the same in every way, but there's certain elements that are similar when you get very angry.
I know what it was like to grow up with that around.
I'm not going to put my kids through that.
Like, I'm just not. It is no possibility that that's going to happen.
And I could not be a good father If I have to manage more angry people, I don't think I have enough arms on my body.
So if you, you know, are going to be an angry mom and then the kids get angry and I've got to manage their anger and everyone's fighting, I'll be like, oh my god, I'm still five.
I'm still five. I'm never going to get out of this.
And it would not be good.
So, I apologize to you for letting this go on so long.
I apologize for not taking a stronger stand.
But you have a decision to make.
You have a choice to make.
You have got to choose between your temper and me and our future and our possible family.
I hope you would choose me.
I mean, I love you.
I know you love me.
But this behavior, which I have enabled and I'm partly responsible for, not in terms of provoking it, but in terms of not You've done something about it to your credit, right?
You've really said this is a deal breaker.
It's just been hard to follow through.
But it is out of my love for you that I'm saying this can't continue.
It is out of my love for you because if you become a moody, angry mom, I guarantee you That you will not be happy.
I guarantee you that your children will not be happy.
I guarantee you that we will fall out of love.
I guarantee you that your life will be messed up really badly, perhaps beyond repair, because the harm we do to children, we cannot really morally survive.
Our conscience won't let us. So it is out of my love for you that I'm saying this has to stop.
And not for a week, and not for two weeks, and not for a month.
But there has to be a serious 200% commitment to do whatever it takes to deal with this issue.
Which means therapy, it means anchor management, it means whatever needs to happen.
You know, like if you've got to get to a job interview and there's no bus coming, you take a cab.
And if the cab breaks down You pay someone 50 bucks to borrow their bicycle, and if their bicycle breaks down, you start running.
And then you pay somebody 100 bucks to put you in their car.
That's how important it is to get to that job interview.
This is what it means for us to get to peace as a couple.
For us to get to peace as a couple, that doesn't mean never getting angry, but it means that we don't go down that road.
We don't go down this road which is all too familiar to you, and it's all too familiar to me.
It's not good for me.
It's not good for my heart.
It is not good for my masculinity.
It is not good for me as a partner to be subjected to the same level of anger that harmed me so much as a child.
I'm vulnerable to it.
I'm susceptible to it, which is why it is so hard for me to stand up to it.
But because I love you, because I want you to be happy, because I want to have a great family life with you, this has to be dealt with.
This has to stop.
100% commitment.
This has to be Our job as a couple, your job as a human being and our job as a couple for the next six months at least.
This has to be what we talk about.
This has to be what we're focused on.
This has to be what we are committed to.
Because that's the only way that this is going to be dealt with.
This is a multi-year habit in our relationship.
It's hard enough changing yourself in isolation.
But changing yourself when you have a set of train tracks In your relationship, going round and round, trying to jump those tracks is really, it's much harder than changing on your own.
And changing on your own is hard enough, but changing in a couple is even harder, which is why we both have to be committed to this.
Because we care about each other, because we care about the possible future that we'll have with children.
Because we want that happiness that comes from that peace and that love and that intimacy and that trust.
I have to tell you, this is what is necessary for this relationship to flourish.
And because I love you, and because I have to take care of myself, if this is not something that you can commit to, then I can't have children with you.
And I'm very sorry about that, because in some ways, I get that you would be a great and fun and fantastic mom.
But I can't have children with you because I know what it was like to grow up with moody and angry parents.
I can't do it. I can't do it.
I can't do it to myself.
I can't do it to you because I saw what it did to my parents.
And I can't do it to our kids.
Now, because I want kids, if I can't have kids with you, then we can't have a relationship.
Because I really want to experience being a father.
I really want to raise and nurture healthy and happy kids.
I can't do that. in a situation that is even close to what I grew up in.
I can't be a father while I'm constantly being treated like a child and a bad child of that and unjustly treated.
I can't have authority in this relationship as an equal if I'm being condemned and criticized and put down on a regular basis.
I can't have my son look at his dad being harangued by his mom I can't have my daughter look at her dad being harangued and put down by her mom.
I don't want to put them in that position.
So, let's join hands and let's make this commitment to really achieve the kind of change that can make for a great family life for us together in the future.
What do you say? And you can remind her That life comes down, most of life is fuller, but a smaller amount of it comes down to some very clear and very powerful decisions that people make in the moment.
And this, I guarantee you, is going to be one of them.
I think that's going to be a good approach.
I mean, the way you said that, the way you communicated it is perfect.
Thank you.
Well, you might want to listen to it a few times then.
I'm sorry? You might want to listen to it a few times then.
Is this recorded? Yeah.
Well, thank you very much, Stefan.
Was it helpful? Oh yes, very helpful.
Good. Well, I'll send you a copy, and you can let me know what you think.
Oh, if you could, that would be very, very, very great.
Absolutely. There's a few things you pointed out that I've been blind to.
There's a few things that I... that you...
Not sure if you understand French.
But useful. Useful is what you're saying.
Yes. All right.
Okay. Well, yeah, keep me posted if you can.
Drop me a line and let me know how it goes. I will.
All right. Take care, my friend. Thanks a lot, Stefan.
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