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Jan. 22, 2012 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:20:25

2080 Freedomain Radio Sunday Show, 22 January 2012

The apology the world owes you, and more peaceful parenting!

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	Greetings, fellow deadisons of Philosophy Land.
	I hope you're doing very well. It is the 22nd of January, 2012, and I hope you're having a magnificent week.
	I hope you're having a wonderful week. LibertyFestWest.com is a speaking gig I've got coming up, and in July in Vancouver, I will be speaking as well.
	I'm going to be doing a live audience participation demonstration Of universally preferable behavior.
	It's going to be a massive crowd, break dance, sing-along, exposing the true nature of ethics.
	It should be a gripping time. I hope you'll be able to make it.
	I'll post more details about that on the Freedom Aid Radio Message Board.
	And given that we have a big lineup of people to question, criticize, compliment, and harangue me, let's move straight into it.
	I will bypass the intro.
	And James, if you'd like to bring up the first caller, that would be great.
	First in the line, we have William.
	Willie, what's shaking?
	William E. William? Yes, I think so.
	Hey, if you're William who can grab the mic, it's yours.
	Okay, I might be Marley on the board.
	I've tried to contact you a couple of times.
	We've had a little bit of a lag problem on that, I guess.
	I don't know if you recall some of the communications we've had.
	There's been some difficulty as far as me coming out of the closet, so to speak, with the household I'm living in.
	which I think I remember rightly, but just to inform the people listening in.
	Oh, well, firstly, I think the biggest blow to everybody was the atheism thing.
	I've been in a 20-year marriage and I was a theist, pretty strongly for a long time, and I guess that was kind of expected.
	After 20 years, you're not going to have any surprises like, oh, it's a sky ghost, after all.
	Right. I'm an atheist, and it turns out I'm one of the reptilian folk who rule the world.
	Just wanted to mention that and get me some flies.
	Anyway, go on. Yeah, and plus I raised some children, and one of them is an atheist.
	One son defood years ago for other reasons, and let's see.
	I wrote a long, in the Fatal Attractions, I wrote a long post, and you enjoyed reading that.
	You said I was a good writer, and I spent a moment to enjoy that.
	I continued talking about, trying to talk with them, and I was thinking of the The whole evolution is a cliff face thing, but for religion.
	Religion kind of developed for a long time, and so maybe instead of looking down from the top of the sheer cliff saying, well, if I jump off this cliff, I'm going to die, instead of, well, maybe if you turn around and walk down the hill back, so if you step down from it step by step.
	That would be a way to do it.
	I mean, I've always questioned things which helped, I guess.
	When I came across new information that was logical and made sense, I accepted it regardless of how uncomfortable it made me.
	And, of course, I took a swing.
	My pendulum took a swing a couple of times.
	It's not my first trip into atheism.
	My first denial of God really was kind of anger, you know, how could you possibly make, you know, allow horrible things to happen in the world if you're loving and nurturing and all that hippy-dippy stuff, right?
	But I never really researched it.
	I just, you know, well, I'm done with that.
	And then after a while I just kind of relapsed back into it, mostly because I didn't want to, I was tired of arguing about it.
	Right, right. Then when it came again, now I'm a strong atheist and, you know, the matter is settled.
	But the problem...
	Well, I mean, the latest thing was, well, if you're into this philosophy thing, why don't you go and study philosophy and read all the philosophers and they get back to me?
	Oh, that's what people sort of...
	Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, I mean...
	I've heard, you know, a lot of podcasts, that kind of thing is mentioned mostly about libertarians.
	Why don't you research all of these, you know, ancient anarchist and libertarian societies and everything, and then get back to me.
	Just kind of a way to send me scurrying off on my little errands, so you don't have to talk about it.
	Right, right. But the onus of work upon you, and then people, you know, can always say, well, have you read this philosopher?
	No, of thousands of philosophers out there.
	Well, go read him and then get back to me.
	It's just a way of postponing things, right?
	Right. I wanted to do a little background.
	My wife is already, by her own description of her approach to fate, he's already a heretic.
	She agrees that many sections of the Bible are mistranslations or just dead wrong, you know, the sell your daughters into sexual slavery thing.
	Well, that can't be possible. God didn't want that.
	So it's got to be a mistranslation or a bad quote or just some crazy person saying, hey, I'm speaking in the name of God.
	But she's even gone so far as to say...
	That even if God came down and said things to her that she would consider evil, well, she would just disregard that because obviously...
	Well, that would be Satan in the guise of God, obviously.
	Well, maybe, yeah.
	That would be another possibility, although she hasn't thought of that yet.
	But, I mean, it's very frustrating because...
	The woman I fell in love with is still there.
	I've just grown in a different direction.
	She and I agreed 20 years ago that Blood relationship is not, in and of itself, a moral quality.
	It's what you do.
	I told her that it's not your genetic legacy that you leave behind that is important.
	It's your intellectual legacy.
	What ideas do you leave behind you?
	And we've always taught the kids, you know, you don't respect your elders just because they're your elders or they're people in authority.
	They're all grown now, but they've had their own run-ins with teachers at school and authority figures and stuff, and we've gone in and gone to the mat for them.
	Listen, I don't mean to interrupt you, but we have a lot of callers.
	I'm just wondering if you could get to a question or a comment just to make sure I address whatever it is that is on your mind.
	Mostly, I guess, advice going forward because kind of the whole DFU process is happening to me.
	I wanted to I wanted to share the things that I've learned and discovered about myself and about the world in general.
	With everyone here.
	And also, this is not like a parental defu process where, you know, you're going out in the world, we have a house together, and, I mean, we're just, we're tangled up with 20 years of...
	I'm sorry, you mean a divorce?
	A potential divorce? Oh, yeah.
	Okay, that's what you mean. That's where it's going.
	That is where it's going.
	You know, she said, well, how come you're not living your values?
	You're just talking to me about it.
	And I said, well, I'm trying.
	And I got to start with self-discovery.
	But it's, you know, it's...
	What's your theory as to why your wife is resistant to atheism?
	Or philosophy, I guess.
	Well, she has experiences in her past that she interprets as absolute proof that there is a spiritual world.
	Populated by devils and demons and God and everything.
	You mean she feels she's experienced direct supernatural?
	She feels that she's experienced miracles.
	She was also raised in a very abusive upbringing.
	Her father didn't calm down until he actually had a A stroke and was brain dead for like 12 minutes before he came back and he lost most of his most of his personality as well as his memories of everything and he was like a 12 year old until the day he died and so he ended up being taken care of by his ex-wife because he was completely you know just he was dependent again But he would be violent and everything.
	But I think one of the things is her brother had a bad car accident and all of his intestines were like turned around and everything and they were going to go and do an operation but the chart had been smudged mysteriously and so they had to go and take new x-rays and apparently everything had corrected itself internally.
	And she says that was because her church prayed for him.
	Wow. And of course, I mean, I'm sure this is completely obvious, and I don't think this is the source of your, I mean, what do I know?
	This is just my theory. I don't think this is the source of your wife's faith.
	Because of course, if God can come down and start flicking intestines around, then why didn't he nudge the car over so the car accident didn't happen to begin with?
	Well, that's true.
	And then, you know, we've had the whole free will debate, and I said, well, he's going to send you to hell if that's like putting a gun to your head.
	How much free will is that?
	You know, I said, well, God lives by different rules.
	Those are, you know. Right, so how do we know that God is good if God lives by different rules, right?
	I mean, and of course, how can God send people to hell if he already knows ahead of time, since he's all-knowing, that they're going to do what they're going to do?
	And how can God send people to hell for crimes when, for the vast majority of cases, it would appear that those crimes arise out of evil that was done to them as children, which they're clearly not morally responsible for?
	You know, somebody who's brought up in a loving, happy household...
	It's very unlikely to become a criminal or a drug addict where somebody brought up in an abusive household, the odds are multiple, multiple times higher that they're going to end up with this kind of dysfunction.
	Clearly it's not the fault of the child for being abused, so how can God have the same moral standards for somebody raised peacefully versus someone raised violently, and how can he send a kid to hell who's had so little chance in life to get ahead?
	How can he send some Somali 19-year-old who's never heard of Jesus to hell for not knowing about Jesus.
	I mean, obviously the moral problems with omniscience and omnipotence are so enormous that unless your wife has achieved the intellectual capacity of her own father after his stroke, then it's clearly not a rational or moral position that's where she's coming from.
	That would be my argument, because she's married to you, she's an intelligent woman, and so it can't be a lack of understanding that is the barrier.
	Yeah, well, I mean, it is irrational because, I mean, on one hand, she's told me twice, oh, you're going to hell because you're atheism.
	But on the other hand, when the arguments come up later, well, she doesn't really believe that there is a hell, per se, which is why I said earlier in this conversation, by her own definition, she's a heretic.
	Well, listen, I will tell you what I think, which, you know, obviously has no particular truth value.
	These are all just theories and impressions, so, you know, you can take it with a grain of salt as much as you like.
	But this comes out of a couple of decades of hard-won, hopefully some sort of wisdom about debating ideas with people.
	It's not what it's about.
	When you debate with philosophy with people, it's almost never, ever, ever about what you think it's about.
	It's not about rational proofs.
	It's not about logical consistency.
	It's not about empirical evidence.
	It's not about a clear path to truth.
	It's not about a value for truth.
	People will say that it is about that, but it's really not.
	Well, it is about childhood, of course, but as an adult, it's not quite the same.
	The first, if you want to figure out why somebody is resisting clear and obvious rationality, Then the first place that you need to look at is what is the impact of accepting a basic philosophical truth, what is the impact of that acceptance on her personal relationships in the present?
	Right? People will judge an idea by its effect on their personal relationships, but they will never say that.
	They will pretend that it's about some rational argument or some experience or the intestines were shifted around, but that's not what it's about.
	What it's about is, okay, what happens to my personal relationships if I accept that statism is forced, if I accept that taxation is violence, if I accept that there's no such thing as deities?
	What is going to happen to my personal relationships?
	That's what you need to look at.
	Most people's arguments for whatever truth is being proposed or denied are ex post facto justifications for maintaining the status quo in their existing relationships.
	This has evolutionary advantages of course in that we needed other people in the past in particular to get food, raise kids.
	I think it's more so true for women than it is for men biologically and again this is all just theory but particularly of course in the past women were more dependent upon relationships than men because women were constantly pregnant so they needed people to bring them food, they needed people to help raise their kids, they needed people to We built them shelter and so on because they were busy having babies and raising children.
	So women are particularly more, I think, geared towards being the peacemakers in their social relationships.
	And this results, of course, often in, this is quite frustrating for men, in an endless trivialization of life.
	Because any deep or resonant or powerful issues are going to raise conflicts and women, whether by nature or by socialization or by both, seem to be very strongly disposed to minimizing conflicts among family members.
	And that means a relentless trivialization of topics that you can talk about the weather, that you can talk about Sports, you can talk maybe even a little bit about politics, but the moment anybody brings up anything that is contentious, women, you know, like an expertly tuned fire engine, firefighting crew, will arise and douse any potential flames of conflict because to minimize conflict seems to be the role of women.
	And again, you can see some evolutionary advantages to this and there seems to be a lot of socialization for things that way.
	And so, when you bring up, again, this is all gross generalizations, and I apologize to all the brilliant philosophical women out there and all of the peacemaking, trivializing men, but you bring up a topic in particular with a woman.
	And she does not listen to the reason, she does not listen to the evidence.
	It drops down into her heart, radiates out across her social relationships and says, will this be positive or negative for my social relationships?
	Will this engender conflict or will this make it easier for me to get along with people in my life?
	Now philosophy, unfortunately, does not usually make it easier to get along with people in your life.
	At least until the world becomes more philosophical, that is how it's going to be.
	But women are intensely attuned to conflict avoidance.
	Philosophy brings significant conflict into relationships, and therefore women will work to minimize, block, and defuse any potential philosophical conversations in their environment.
	It's one of the great barriers to the spread.
	I'm not blaming women for this.
	And again, this is just a theory.
	Tons of exceptions and all the caveats in the world.
	But if you want to understand why your wife is resistant to atheism, do not look at the arguments.
	Do not look at her arguments.
	Look at what effect it's going to have on her personal relationships and I would go from there.
	Well, thanks.
	I'll give that a shot.
	I would like the opportunity to have a Oh yes, listen, give me a shout anytime.
	The conflict is reduced in relationships, in my opinion, conflict in experience.
	Conflict is reduced in relationships when you actually start talking about what the subject is, rather than avoiding the subject with a lot of fancy words.
	I'm not saying that's you, but you can feel...
	It doesn't mean that the relationship itself is solved, necessarily, or the problems are solved.
	But there's a great easing of tension when you finally identify what the genuine motives are that the other person is experiencing in the conversation.
	I had a chat with somebody who was a determinist, and the conversations, of course, as they always are about determinism, was pointless, fruitless, and frustrating on the message board.
	But when we actually had a conversation, I got to ask him what it was really about, and we talked about his history and his childhood, and he had a pretty wretched His parents would constantly lock him in the room and drug him and send him off to get drugged and stuff, so he didn't experience any free will.
	So when you actually get why people have what they call their philosophical beliefs, why they actually have them, and what effect changing those beliefs is going to have, then you're actually talking about the thing itself, the actual motivation, what is actually driving people to have the perspectives that they have.
	It is not rational.
	Almost never is it rational because we're not raised rationally.
	And so people have their particular perspectives which comes out of their history, comes out of conflict avoidance or conflict provocation or something like that.
	But when you actually break through the intellectual defenses and you talk about the thing itself that is the cause Of their intellectual defenses or their pseudo-philosophical perspectives.
	You clear all of that rubble away and you stare at usually what is the grave of some essential aspect of the self that hopefully can be resurrected.
	There's an enormous relief and an enormous relaxation in the relationship because you're no longer fencing to avoid essential truths.
	The essential truth is not about God versus non-God or about the state versus non-state.
	The essential truth is what is the nature of my relationships.
	There are very few relationships that I've seen Or experienced, for that matter.
	Very few relationships can survive the scalding sunlight of truth.
	Relationships tend to be vampiric in two senses of the metaphor, and in that they're draining and they cannot be exposed to sunlight.
	And so, you know, find a way to crack through.
	Forget about God. It's not about God.
	It's about her relationships. Talk about that.
	Say, okay, let's pretend that you were an atheist.
	What would happen to you tomorrow?
	And what would happen when so-and-so called?
	And what would happen if so-and-so called and said, you know, bring a cake to church on Sunday?
	Or what would happen to so-and-so, you know, if they noticed your absence from church?
	And that's where the genuine issue is.
	And if you pretend that it's about abstract arguments for God, I think you will just end up completely frustrated and The other way, getting to the actual truth of the matter, who knows if it's going to save your marriage or not, it's definitely the best shot, I would argue, that you've got.
	But if it ends up not saving your marriage, of course it would be great if it did, but if it ends up not, at least you will get closure because you will have a genuine understanding about her motives rather than these sort of pretend perspectives.
	Yeah, I mean, I've used the worst case scenario thing, and her only answer was, well, I would just die and that would be the end.
	No, it's not about dying and that would be the end either.
	I can always guarantee you.
	You know, very few people make their decisions on the afterlife, otherwise the Pope would have a much less gold lame in his disco suit.
	So it is about immediate stress and tension in the relationships.
	Unfortunately, women are tuned to be conflict avoiders and conflict minimizers, which means that they cannot approach essential or deep.
	Topics in their lives, and I think it's very tragic for women, tragic for everyone, of course, but it's very tragic for women because it means that they live a much less deep and rich existence, and this is probably why a quarter of American women are on psychotropic or antidepressants or anti-anxiety medications last year.
	So, yeah, I would like for women to have more exposure to philosophy that means that they have to grit their teeth and say that the truth is more important than my relationships, because if my relationships aren't based on truth, well, damn it, they're just not relationships at all.
	Okay, well, I appreciate that.
	I'll just have to try to get past the snapping teeth.
	Right, right, right.
	And, you know, I think that the key thing is to say, well, you know...
	The intellectual debates are not working.
	I'd like to know if there's something else going on.
	I'm certainly curious what it would be like and what you think would happen if you accepted this.
	I'm not saying you should or do, but I really want to understand what the practical consequences would be.
	You might need to be persistent in that.
	Of course, she needs to be able to express herself in a non-judgmental environment.
	If you're being genuinely curious about someone else's experience, and certainly you have enough water under the bridge with this fine lady to To justify that, to make that a respectful and productive approach.
	If you're genuinely curious, then, you know, you have to sort of, you can't sort of say, well, you know, it's bullshit that you choose God over your relationship with me, or I can't believe you would be that sensitive to other people's disapproval.
	It has to be a genuinely open and curious environment, and if you're patient enough with that, you know, it seems almost certain that you will get to some very important truth.
	Yeah, I'm trying to get through RTR2, and I'm trying to use those Good.
	Well, I hope that helps, and if there's anything I can do to help, please let me know.
	Well, I certainly appreciate the opportunity to talk with you about this.
	All right. Thanks. Bye.
	All right. Next up, we have another James.
	Hey Stefan, I just want to appreciate my gratitude and thanks for everything you've shown me, especially a few of the videos, the story of your enslavement.
	Another one was, the state is not your family, and it's a great metaphor.
	I try to tell people of it, but they seem to shine away every time I say that The night your mum, the night your dad, the night your brother or sister, it's nothing but a leech on you.
	Yeah, I mean, it can be.
	It can be for sure.
	I'm very keen on virtue exists independent of biology.
	I mean, it kind of has to. If virtue is related to biology, then those you are closer to in biology should be those who are more virtuous, which basically is just racism.
	To me, it's fundamentally no difference.
	It's just a difference of degree to be blindly pro-family as it is to be blindly pro-white.
	It's just saying that similar genetics breed virtue and more distant genetics breed vice.
	Or, you know, you must be loyal to those who are closer to you in genetics.
	Well, that's just racism. And I was always taught that racism or genetic similarities were immoral as a basis for evaluation.
	And so, you know, one of the grave dangers of society Is that children actually listen to the moral instructions they were given as a child.
	And I was told, don't hit, don't steal, don't punch, don't use violence to get what you want.
	And judging people by genetic characteristics is immoral.
	And so I listened to that and I accepted that.
	I accept those moral standpoints when I was, unfortunately, in state education system.
	Looking back on it, it was an absolute prison hellhole.
	I did not cope at all, and I was subjugated to...
	It was actually very unfortunate to antidepressants in order just to, like, cope in the prison that it is.
	But eventually, like, I'm thankful for my parents that got me out of it, but at the same time, like, they kind of forced me, like, this was, like, during Year 9, like, I pleaded and said, like, do not...
	Send me, like, during the last two weeks, it's hell, and basically, I still have not gone over that, and I'm turning 20, and I still, like, have that lingering...
	Memory, even though my mom still regrets it, but it's a bit of a taboo subject whenever I talk about education, likewise, because it always brings up that horrible memory of whenever I go back into the education system.
	But at the same time, I don't want to get myself, this is more so an economic standpoint, I don't want to get myself in debt, because I'm already strained for money as it is.
	Right, right.
	So, I'm sorry, maybe I missed if there was a particular question or something for me to respond to, if you could just rephrase that.
	Sorry, I think I was just rambling, but I'm kind of...
	How do I put it? I'm just kind of upset about how the education system is at its point and how I try to address the people that schooling as it is, it's wrong, it's immoral, like, you shouldn't force, like, kids to these, like, prison households and I try to address this to some people as, like, no, no, no, they've got to go to school and all that.
	and my question is how do you try to like overcome that barrier it's it's again it's a sense of patriotism it's like you've got to send your child to school otherwise they're not going to get anywhere in life well i mean again just to maybe this could be the theme of the show it's not about what it's about right people are just pretending that's what it's about so if you say to somebody that you know government schools are you know bad and destructive and so on right
	then what do you think they might be getting out of that that's not an abstract philosophical discussion What would their experience be?
	So again, this kind of relates into their own personal relationships if they were to suddenly change their thinking methodology.
	Right. Yeah, I mean, so the things that pop into my mind, right?
	So if I heard this and I was your average statist, then a whole bunch of things would pop into my mind.
	First of all, I would say, oh, so you're basically saying, I can't think.
	I don't know how to think because I went to government schools.
	And so you're saying, I've been indoctrinated.
	I don't know what the hell's going on.
	So I'd be upset and offended at that.
	Because you see, offense is so much easier than thinking, right?
	So if people can get offended, they don't have to analyze anything.
	They don't have to review anything.
	They don't have to look at any facts.
	They can just substitute offense for arguments It's really, it's an ad hominem against the argument itself.
	It just allows people to avoid.
	And so if people get offended when you say that state schooling is indoctrination, that actually confirms the thesis.
	Because offense is what you are trained into when you're indoctrinated.
	You're trained to be angry, offended, and upset.
	By particular questions or perspectives.
	And that is a complete example of indoctrination.
	So people who will get offended by that are only confirming the diagnosis of indoctrination.
	So that would be one. The second thing would be, okay, so my parents put me into these terrible schools and praised them the whole time and my aunt is a teacher and you're saying that these people are all somehow enmeshed in some Monsters plan to indoctrinate children for the sake of our reptilian lizard masters or something, and so they'd feel bad about that.
	And, of course, if they themselves have children, then they've put those children into these government schools.
	They feel bad about that, because if they accept your argument, what are they going to do?
	Well, they have to pull their kids out of government schools, or they have to start teaching them about some actual truths in the world, which is going to cause them to run into lots of conflicts with their teachers and perhaps their children with other people's children.
	And so on, and so they just kind of want to dodge and avoid that.
	And, of course, government schools are daycares.
	I mean, they're prisons in a way, and they're daycares in a way, because it allows, I mean, obviously inconveniently, but it allows parents to drop their kids off And then go to work where they can pay taxes and, you know, feed the beast called the state.
	And so people have structured their lives around, well, you know, my kids go to school.
	And then, you know, there's a daycare tacked on to the end of the school day, so I'll drop them off at 7.30 in the morning and I'll pick them up at 6.30 at night.
	And that's the way I've structured my life.
	And I've bought a house and have a mortgage payment and a car payment based upon all that kind of crap.
	And so if you're telling me that I'm actually doing harm by my children, To put them in daycare, to put them in government schools, then I'm going to have to change my life significantly, and that's going to bring me into conflict with other people.
	So I'm going to sit there and have to go to my aunt, and my aunt's going to say, oh, I hear that my aunt, who's the teacher, is going to say, oh, I hear you pulled your kids out of school?
	Why is that? Have you become some fundamentalist Christian?
	And is it too secular for you?
	Be like, no, it's because it's funded on coercion and based on indoctrination.
	What are you saying? Says your auntie.
	Are you saying that I have somehow been doing harm to these wonderful children who I love so much and would lay down my life for to educate them properly and bring them up as wise, caring, virtuous citizens?
	Yes, exactly! I mean, this is the Thanksgiving dinner that you can look forward to if you accept this argument.
	Your children, of course, you're going to have to say to your kids, listen, we're pulling you out of school.
	Why are you pulling us out of school? Well, it turns out it's an indoctrination farm.
	Oh, really? I quite like it there.
	My friends are all there. I don't want to leave.
	So you've got to quit your job.
	You've got to move out of your house. You've got to go from two cars down to one car.
	You've got endless conflicts with your family.
	And your kids don't want to be pulled out of school because that's all they've known.
	Plus, you have to apologize to them for the harm that the school has done to their brains, which you've supported.
	Before, and this is just the tip of the icebergs, you stack all of that stuff up again.
	That's what people hear and that's what the dominoes that go off in their brain when they hear government schools are bad.
	It is a complete reorganization of their life.
	And the most terrifying thing, I argue the most terrifying thing that they're going to experience is they're going to experience the degree to which their relationships are based upon intolerance.
	Intolerance. I think that I'm pretty open-minded.
	I've certainly had people on my show and on the message boards and all over the place who come up with some arguments that I find pretty appalling.
	But, you know, offense is not the answer to a bad argument.
	Offense is a confession of an incapacity to deal with a bad argument.
	It is throwing your sword off a cliff and thinking you've won the duel.
	So, if you think for yourself, you actually have an identity, you have a soul.
	Your soul is sparked by original thought, by your relationship with the evidence and your capacity and willingness to use reason.
	That is what is called the personality.
	Everything else is just the emptiness of cultural bigotry that masquerades as a personality.
	So, you have authenticity, you have uniqueness, you have a self.
	When you think for yourself, And so, if people say that they love you, then they must love something that is particular to you, not just the cultural habits that were indoctrinated or inculcated into you when you were a child.
	And so, the most terrifying thing that people are going to experience is when they say, you know what, I've just started thinking for myself and this is what I think.
	Are people going to say, wow, that's great, we've been waiting for you to do that because, you know, you were kind of a boring cultural stereotype before and now you're actually thinking for yourself, that's wonderful, how can we help?
	Of course not, because if those people were around, they would have encouraged you to think for yourself years and years ago.
	And so the truth is that people like you when you have the depth and richness of a child's puzzle piece that can be fit into any convenient shape that they want.
	That's what people like, for the most part.
	And so when you start to think for yourself and you get some sort of depth and you get some sort of identity and you get some sort of authenticity and you actually become someone rather than repeating the dead echoes of dead others, well, how many people are going to be enthralled, enthusiastic, happy and encouraged By your individuation, by you thinking for yourself, by you challenging the dead rolling thunderball of anemic and rotted culture.
	They're not. I'm not going to be very happy at that at all.
	And so they're basically going to start putting pressure on you to get back into the box, into the child's jigsaw box, into what is ever convenient for other people and not threaten any of their hidebound preconceptions as well.
	And I say this with a lot of sympathy.
	You know, I mean, people have all gone through this kind of indoctrination for the most part.
	And so they're going to look at their relationships.
	They're going to say, okay, well, if I start thinking for myself, who's going to love me?
	Fundamental question. If I start thinking for myself, who the hell is going to love me?
	And that is a terrifying question for people.
	On two levels. One, of course, is that they may recognize or realize how few people will actually love them for thinking for themselves.
	But most importantly, if you even ask yourself that question, you've actually answered the question of how many people love you now.
	And that's not a pretty answer for most people.
	Right. Because I, what can you say, I pretty much enjoy my own company, but loneliness doesn't really bother me so much as to others because I've always been outside the group social norm of most areas.
	But another, why I tend to enjoy my own company, because Partying is the final exorcism that kills any remnants of the true self.
	Don't get me wrong, I actually quite like a good party.
	If there's good dancing and not too much drinking and all of that, you can just kick back and have a lot of fun.
	But when people say partying, they don't mean dancing, they don't mean, I don't know, fun games with language or even just sitting around creating funny jokes for each other.
	What they mean is drinking and drugs, right?
	It's pretty much it, mainly just the drinking part.
	Right, and this is the embalming process for the remnants, right?
	This is how you drown the last fluffy kitten of the true self is in alcohol and in drugs and in various kinds of other addictions, whether it's gambling or sports or what have you.
	I mean, this is, you know, the last few remnants of the true self.
	You back the truck of...
	Brain-destroying addictions, and this is how you make that final transition from school to adulthood.
	And you need to be drugged so that you don't feel the pain of the death of your soul.
	I don't mean to put this in overdramatic terms, but that's something that's been my experience.
	And so, you know, I think it's terrifying and horrifying.
	I mean, I went through a phase maybe, I don't know, two or three weekends when I was 16 or so, where I'd go and get drunk.
	With some new friends.
	And I just couldn't sustain it.
	It was too awful. Because I've never really felt lonely in my own company.
	But I don't think I've ever felt more lonely when drinking with others.
	Because there's proximity.
	Like, I don't have all the pleasures of intimacy with myself.
	Boy, that sounds pretty salacious, doesn't it?
	Let me see if I can find a way to rephrase that that doesn't have people thinking that I'm trying to start a little lawnmower between my legs.
	But... Pretty much alcohol is a sense of escapism, and you're pretty much pulling away from that escapism, which is alcohol.
	Okay, let's go with your way of putting it, which I think is much less likely to be exerted as part of a rap video.
	Pretty much. But sorry, go ahead.
	But like I said, I've admittedly, subconsciously I've admitted that I'm going through that phase, but I've pretty much taken the control steps, just going out, drinking.
	Again, it's a sense of escapism.
	I even dwell into TV shows.
	It's just a sense of escapism just to endure the same garbage I have to endure during work and all my managers and all that just to get by day to day.
	That's why I tend to dwell deep into philosophy as well as questioning the motives of others and what they tend to do with that.
	Right. Right.
	Yeah, no, it is definitely, you know, going into the world of truth is definitely stepping out the biosphere of culture.
	And it looks a whole lot smaller from the outside than it feels on the inside, so I definitely sympathize with that process.
	Did you have another question?
	Have we got a bunch of other callers? Any other questions or comments that you'd like to chat about today?
	I won't be greedy, so I'll probably come in the chat room probably next week or something like that.
	So I won't take up much more of your time.
	Yeah, listen, if you want to ping down a couple of questions, feel free to call back.
	Greed? Greed is good.
	Well, I've raised up not to be greedy.
	Anyway, I'm rambling, so I'll let you go and let everyone else have a talk to you.
	And thank you very much.
	Thank you so much, and thank you for what you're doing for the world.
	I know it's a lonely process, but I genuinely believe that there's far better companionship, and I've experienced that there's far better companionship on the other side of that desert.
	There is a beautiful village here with a steadily growing population.
	Thanks again, Stefan. Thank you.
	Next up, we have Nathan.
	I didn't get to do my standard mic check.
	Can you hear me okay, Steph?
	Yes. Excellent.
	I'm going to make the show more upbeat than the previous two callers.
	How about that? It's your choice.
	I will follow. I am a slave to your impulses.
	I hope you remember that we talked a few weeks ago when we had a one-on-one regarding philosophical parenting practices.
	Yes. So I really just wanted to tell you that your advice was incredible.
	It's worked out very, very well.
	I'm picking up your habits, by the way.
	I can't just say very or really.
	Very, very well. And you can't just say something one time.
	You have to say it 12 times with ever-escalating metaphors that make increasingly less sense.
	Yeah, go ahead. This is really, really, really important.
	Yeah! Right.
	And trying to move towards new speak.
	You know, it's really double plus important.
	Anyway, go on. So it's worked out very well.
	The clock thing was magnificent.
	And it's actually gotten to the point now where we don't even have to rely so much on the clock because we've gotten into a schedule pattern and she more readily admits when she's tired.
	Because she can see it coming. It's not just an imposition of will on your point.
	She can see the clock getting closer, blah, blah, blah, right?
	Right. Oh, yeah. Fantastic.
	Yeah, that's worked really well.
	So did your advice on having her pay more attention to the fact that she can't decide what somebody else likes.
	That's worked really well.
	Can you give me an example? Sure, yeah.
	Well, I was talking about, on the original call, I was talking about her basically roughhousing with her brother.
	We have a son who's seven months old, and at the time, I guess he was six because it was about a month ago.
	And she was playing with him a bit rough and saying, well, no, he likes it when I told her to stop.
	And your story about Izzy and her jacket was just a great frame for how to move forward with her in discussing her experience with him.
	And we've gotten her away from the tendency to say, you know, oh, you like this or he likes that or anything like that.
	She can't make those decisions for other people.
	So that's worked out well.
	So thank you again for that.
	And since our talk, I've actually had the chance to go back and listen to the entire Philosophical Parenting podcast series, which I hadn't before we talked before.
	And I really wish I had, because there were some things in there that I think I would have taken to heart better during our original conversation, the most important of which was the sort of emergency ethic I think you mentioned in the podcast that you had gone through that with Izzy with sleep training.
	Yeah, will she thank us in the future for what we're doing now?
	And I think that's sort of the standard that I try to work by.
	And there have really been very few, very, very few times where that's even come up.
	But of course I needed a philosophical way of approaching it that justified my random exercise of power.
	No, I'm kidding. But yeah, I'm glad that was helpful.
	Well, I'm sure you treat it as a measure of last resort.
	Oh, completely. Absolutely, completely.
	And other than sleep training...
	I really think, I'm trying to think, there have probably only been two or three times where I've had to exercise that kind of power.
	And so it's incredibly rare.
	But again, I mean, it's within the bounds of parenting.
	And so you need to have some way of understanding it to make sure that it's a valid thing to do.
	So the thing that I wanted to bring up specifically on today's show was when I got to the fifth podcast and you were responding to the letter from a listener from a woman who had four kids and one of the things that she had brought up was that the strategies of philosophical parenting don't necessarily apply once you put siblings into the equation because you can't necessarily have one child Treating the other child morally and I thought it was really interesting to listen to that with so much hindsight now that I have two kids because I actually disagree with her premise.
	I find that absolutely my daughter It reflects our behavior towards her brother.
	There's simply no question about it.
	The more gentle we are with him, the more gentle she is with him.
	The more gentle we are with her, the more gentle she is with him.
	And I'm a little sorry that you haven't had a chance to experience this quote yet.
	Maybe it's something you'll decide to do later.
	But to see them interact is just such an incredible thing.
	Right. And people say this...
	I sort of experienced this a little bit with Izzy.
	She loves animals, of course.
	So we were over at a friend's place and the friend has two cats and a beautiful baby.
	And... So, you know, how does Isabella approach a cat?
	Well, she just wants to, you know, run up and grab it and give it a big hug, the way she would with us.
	But we have to instruct her and show, you know, okay, we go up slowly, let the cat sniff you, and, you know, slowly give it a tickle and be very gentle.
	And she is. She's very, very gentle.
	But that's how we show her.
	That's how we consistently treat animals.
	We took her to a horse farm.
	She brushed a horse and she fed her horse carrots and sugar cubes and all of that.
	She doesn't have any particular instinctive understanding of what it's like to be a horse, right?
	Unless she had one in her past life, which we're still trying to figure out.
	But if you understand that a child will treat an animal the way that You treat an animal and you instruct the child to treat the animal and the degree to which you are consistent with your instruction, of course.
	But, I mean, that's, I think, fundamentally the same approach that it would be with siblings.
	Is that fair to say?
	You have more experience, of course, with siblings than I do.
	I do.
	I mean, I think there's a certain lack of understanding of physics that is still involved.
	Sure. And her brother was next to me.
	And so she decided, oh, well, maybe he wants to play ball with us.
	And she threw the ball at him. And of course, at seven months, he can't catch a ball or anything like that.
	He just takes it in the face.
	And so I have to explain to her that, no, that he can't catch the ball.
	He's still too little. But there's no...
	There's no malice or anything involved, and she's just trying to include him in what we're doing.
	Yeah, it's actually an act of kindness.
	And of course, she can't empathize with seven months because nobody can remember seven months.
	She can't remember that, right?
	Right. So, I mean, Isabella's quite fascinated by the stages the baby's going through.
	Is the baby learning how to walk?
	Is the baby learning how to roll over?
	Can the baby talk yet? Because she's asking for stories about that, and I think that's because she's around younger kids now.
	She can't remember some of the stuff herself, so she asks her stories about it so she can empathize with them through her own history, through the stories that we're telling her.
	I think that's the approach that she's taking, and I think it's working out really well.
	It also works out well in the sibling case to even proactively explain that.
	So we'll tell Metta that Axiom is working on crawling or working on walking or whatever he does that's the next progression and let her know that there was a time when she was still doing those things.
	Metta and Axiom, those are the names.
	Yes. Cool.
	I must say those names are both very meta, so good for you.
	Yes, Axiom was a bit of a joke.
	Well, not a joke.
	It came about in a funny way.
	My middle initial is T, and my last name is Freeman.
	And so sometimes people will ask me, well, what does the T stand for?
	And I tell them, the.
	Right. Whereas people say, what's your middle name?
	And I say, well, it's a spice.
	Anyway, go on. So...
	I was joking with my wife about, well, if we had a son, we'd have to make his middle name The for real.
	It would have to be on his birth certificate.
	So what could be his first name that would live up to his middle name and last name being The Freeman?
	Right. And I just threw Axiom out there as a lark, and she loved it.
	She loved the way it sounds. She loved the way it's abbreviated, because we can call him Axiom.
	And if he ever, yeah, if he ever joins a gang, the fact that his short name will be Axe is going to make him about as tough an hombre as you could imagine.
	No, and I sort of want to mention somebody, because somebody wrote to me about, I didn't get around to reading this letter, at least not yet, but said, you know, like, I have five kids, so how does peaceful parenting work with the five kids?
	I don't have the time.
	And, of course, the reality is, it's not the fault of each of those five kids that you chose to have five kids.
	You've got to make the time. You have to make the time.
	A lot of parents will end up blending their kids in together.
	I don't think this is the case with you.
	But you have to have one-on-one play with each of your kids every day, I think.
	Where it's just you and that kid.
	Even if it's ten minutes! So that the kid doesn't feel like part of a general sea called children, you know, with ten arms and ten legs and open chirping bird mouths that you shovel food into before you hurt them off to play somewhere else or you play all collectively.
	You know, kids do need that, really, they need that one-on-one time with the parents.
	I agree completely.
	And it also tends to mystify me.
	And I suppose some families do this well.
	But when they go, well, I have five kids, so logistically it just takes up all this time and there's all this involvement and all these difficult things.
	But I find that there are a number of things that are easier having two kids.
	I mean, Meta is just at the age – she's a little younger than Isabella.
	And she's just at the age where she can really lend a material hand when it comes to dealing with her brother.
	So if he is in his high chair and he drops something on the floor, she can pick it up.
	We don't have to necessarily go do it.
	Or if it's time for a diaper change and we forgot the powder in the other room, she'll go get it and bring it back to us.
	And as I imagine, someone with five kids, they're probably at least a year apart each – There has to be some logistical point.
	If they weren't at least that far apart, there'd just be a smoking crater where the mom's vagina used to be.
	Constantly setting off smoke alarms everywhere you go and people sort of yell down at your feet and get an echo.
	I mean, that would just be horrendous.
	Anyway, sorry, go on. I could make jokes like that for about an hour or so.
	I'm going to have to restrain myself from continuing.
	I should probably, again, not be too greedy and let another caller get on who might actually have a question instead of just want to chat about how cool it is to have kids.
	No, listen, I think it's fantastic.
	It really works.
	It's one of these counterintuitive things.
	People say that anarchism is counterintuitive.
	Well, it certainly is. But it works.
	And respectful, peaceful parenting with extra special human sauce added to the dessert called the child, it really works.
	And I was just noticing this today.
	We went for brunch with some friends who have Kids, and they all took Izzy to go get lollipops and stuff.
	Izzy will ask, and she will actually ask both of us if she can have a lick of the lollipop.
	It's not a rule. They have to come and ask us.
	But we ask her about everything.
	We ask each other about everything.
	Is this okay? Is that okay? Izzy, is it okay?
	And so she comes to ask us if she can have a lick of the lollipop.
	And that's just kind of counterintuitive because you think, well, you'd have to really nag a kid to go, you can't, you have to come and ask us, and if you don't come and ask us, we're going to take that lollipop away and blah, blah, blah.
	It doesn't work that way.
	If you consult with the child, the child will consult with you.
	If you consult parent to parent, the child, that's just, you know, in the same way they don't invent their own language.
	If you point at something and call it a cat, they don't start speaking Klingon.
	And if you have a language called consultation and respect for the other person's preferences and wishes, that's just what they grow up speaking.
	You don't need any threats to bring that behavior about any more than you need to threaten a child to call a cat a cat if you say that's a cat.
	Of course. I did want to ask you one thing now that I just thought about it in the context of everything you just said.
	I'm waving my arms around as if you can see me.
	I don't know why. Okay.
	What's your experience been, now that she's old enough to do it, what has your experience been with Isabella with regard to her playing and learning more on her own?
	Because I know that as Meta has gotten a little bit older, it's become much easier for us to let her sort of explore her own space and choose her own things to do.
	And of course she always pays us the great compliment of wanting to have us involved, but she's also willing to do things by herself.
	Are you experiencing that same thing since they're very close in age?
	She absolutely wants to do everything by herself.
	So we have a ritual that if we go outside, then when we come back, she can have a little hot chocolate.
	So she wants to mix the hot chocolate by herself and stir it by herself.
	And she's very assertive about...
	Same here. She says it the same way every time.
	I do it all myself.
	Right. And as Bella used to say, I'm doing it all by my own.
	That's close enough. And of course, a little bit you have to grit your teeth, right?
	So if you're in a hurry and she wants to put her shoes on by herself, you kind of have to grit your teeth and give her that space.
	I don't want her to feel that her doing it by herself is second best.
	You know, like, I want to do it for you, and then if we have time or blah, blah, blah.
	No, her desire for mastery and competence over her environment and her skill set is very important.
	And she's very good at knowing what she can and can't do by herself.
	We had some friends over the other night, and Isabella jumped from the ottoman to the couch.
	I didn't even see her until she was halfway in the air, and I thought, No way!
	She can't make it! I was just about to get up and try and catch her, and she made it.
	And I was like, okay. I didn't think she could, but she could.
	And so she's very good at that kind of stuff.
	She definitely wants to do stuff by herself.
	She is having a problem taking instruction, right?
	So she's starting to learn how to ride a bike, and she's having trouble taking instruction.
	She gets very frustrated quite quickly.
	So, you know, I've sort of sat her down, and I've said...
	Look, Isabella, I get it.
	You really want to ride your bike.
	It's so cool to ride your bike.
	You've seen pictures of kids riding their bike.
	You really want to ride your bike. I get that.
	And it's really frustrating because you don't know how to do it yet.
	And even when I try and teach you, that's frustrating because you want to be able to do it by yourself.
	But I said, you know what's really cool about frustration?
	Frustration means that you want it.
	You're not frustrated because you can't climb a wall.
	Because you don't really want to climb a wall.
	But you are frustrated because you want to ride your bike.
	So half of wanting something is being frustrated when you can't have it.
	So if you want a piece of candy and you can't have it for whatever reason, you get it.
	Actually, she's really fine with that stuff.
	So I was really trying to talk her, saying that frustration is actually a very healthy and it's a happy part of life because it means you really want something and it tells you that it's worth trying again.
	It's worth trying again.
	And so, you know, frustration is just part of wanting something.
	And I really wanted her to sort of get that.
	And since then, frustration has become...
	I've tried to make frustration more of a friend than an enemy.
	Because something's only frustrating if you don't give up.
	Once you give up, it's not frustrating anymore.
	And so I really wanted to get her to understand that frustration is a mark of desire and it's a way of saying that you're going to try again.
	It's a way of getting you to want to try it again.
	And it's also a way of making sure you don't try it too many times that you're going to give up because you get frustrated and then you stop.
	And then you feel frustrated because you want and that means you're going to do it again.
	So I said frustration is a really great way of knowing what it is you want to do.
	And so I'm trying to really get her to make friends with Frustration because this is the phase, you know, for the next probably two or three years is going to be a series of things that are much more complicated than the stuff she's learned how to do organically.
	Learning how to read is not as organic as learning how to speak.
	Learning how to ride a bike is not as organic as learning how to walk.
	Or how to do a somersault, because it's much more complex.
	And so for the next couple of years, she needs to find a way to make friends with being frustrated, because it is going to be a constant companion of the things that she's going to want to learn how to do.
	I can tell you used to be in software development.
	Why is that? Because frustration is your friend.
	Yeah, frustration has to be your friend.
	Yeah, absolutely. And there are times when you give up.
	And then it's like, ah, great relief.
	I just can't do it. I can't do it.
	Can't do it. And then I don't feel frustrated anymore.
	Frustrated is just, I know I can do it.
	I just got to figure out a way. And that's what keeps you going.
	I have to say I'm really surprised that you're teaching her to ride a bike at three.
	A tricycle, I would expect, but a bicycle.
	Sorry, it's a bike with training wheels and all, right?
	Ah, okay. She can already do a scooter, and so that's sort of the next thing.
	Now, she can't ride it yet. She can be pushed around.
	She's sort of trying to figure out the pedals, but pedals are really complex, really abstract, because she's so used to direct manipulation.
	I throw this, and it goes.
	But pedals are like, okay, well I push with this leg and something weird happens to the wheel.
	I mean, what the hell sense does that make?
	It makes no sense at all. And then I've got to alternate and if I push the wrong way, the brakes go on.
	I mean, what the hell? I mean, it's completely bizarre.
	A tricycle is... A tricycle is a great tool to learn that in the first place because it's a direct turn mechanism from the pedals to the wheel.
	Yes, she can do a tricycle, but she really was keen on trying to bike things.
	So yeah, I mean, but it is frustrating for her for sure.
	It's frustrating in a way that nothing, because it's much more abstract, the stuff she's learning now.
	And you can't, repetition isn't going to do it, right?
	So repeatedly looking at a book is not going to teach you how to read, whereas repeatedly learning how to walk teaches you how to walk.
	And so she's running up against stuff now where repetition isn't going to Isn't going to help her and stuff where it's not a progression, right?
	Obviously, you turn over and then you crawl and then you sort of walk hanging onto things and then you walk.
	That's an organic and natural progression.
	That's not the case with letters and words and that's not the case with, I mean, these are just things that there's not a slow learning curve that seems almost imperceptible.
	There's like a big steep, you've got to catapult yourself up with desire and, you know, against the friction of frustration.
	So yeah, I really, really want to make her more friendly towards her frustration because that is going to be a part of things.
	And I don't want her frustration to become aversive.
	I'm very, very sensitive to that because, and I sort of say I, but this is of course a co-parenting situation.
	Because she's, I mean, I think I can say this fairly objectively, because she's very smart, lots of stuff comes easy for her.
	And that's a challenge because it means that she's used to things coming easy for her and what that means is that she's not She's going to be more drawn towards the stuff that comes.
	Easier to her, but that's not a great habit to have her inculcate in herself.
	So she needs to find a way to deal with frustration and to recognize that just because something is difficult doesn't mean that you're slow.
	In fact, it means that it's usually a good place if it's a worthwhile endeavor to conquer.
	But I don't, because she is, you know, so smart and so verbal and so on, I don't want her to focus, and she's, you know, very coordinated.
	I mean, she can do some basic gymnastics.
	She's a good dancer. She gives us skating shows on the hardwood and stuff.
	She's really good at that stuff.
	She can do twirls and jumps.
	So she's really, I think, physically adept and verbally adept, but there's stuff that is tougher for her, and I want to sort of guide her towards that stuff so she doesn't end up being drawn towards the stuff that is as easy as possible for her and not develop any of those, you know, Not develop as much the capacity to deal with some of the negative aspects of learning, like, you know, excess difficulty at the time and frustration and so on.
	Well, I'm going to try some of those frustration techniques myself, and I will share with you how they turn out.
	And also share with her when you're frustrated.
	Right? Because she needs to see me deal with being frustrated as well.
	When she is the object of your frustration, is that a fair time to do it or would you avoid it in that situation?
	Oh, no, I tell her because what she needs from me the most is honesty.
	Appropriate, like age-appropriate honesty, right?
	Daddy's got an itchy butt and he can't reach it is not necessarily what I'm going to share with her no matter how often it seems to happen.
	But no, so if it's taking us, you know what it's like.
	It's like trying to blow a soap bubble against a strong breeze, getting a kid out of the house sometimes.
	And so if it's just taking forever because she wants to go and get another toy and this and that, and I'll say, look, Isabella, I'm frustrated.
	I'm getting frustrated. I want to go.
	And we've now spent 20 minutes getting ready, and I'm frustrated now.
	And here's what I would like and so on.
	So I need to tell her when I'm frustrated.
	If I've, you know, just shuffled the driveway and it snows again, it's a little frustrating or whatever, you know, or I'm trying to get something to work on the computer and it's not working and she's there.
	I say, oh, that's frustrating and I've tried this and I've tried that.
	I don't want her to have to...
	She didn't invent language in a vacuum, and she's certainly not inventing ethics in a vacuum, so why would she invent dealing with your emotions in a vacuum?
	She needs to see where that is occurring for me as well.
	So she understands it's a human condition.
	Frustration is a human condition, and it's innately bound up with desire.
	And so, yeah, I remember I was trying to do something on the computer to show her something, and it didn't work, and I said, she said, Daddy, you frustrated?
	And I said, no, because I'm just not going to do it.
	Like, I'm just, no. I'm not frustrated now because Daddy has given up.
	And then I went, of course, curled into a fetal position and bawled like a little schoolgirl.
	Just so she understands exactly how you should deal with these things.
	But no, I mean, so I want to explain to her also that you can pull the switch on frustration anytime by just giving up.
	And that actually is a very rational thing to do at times.
	So, yeah, I think I don't want to hide from her my experiences because, of course, I also want her to feel free to tell me when she's frustrated with me.
	Because I need that kind of feedback so that I can obviously adjust my customer service provision to more fully satisfy the prima donna.
	So, yeah, I mean, so I think, to be honest, if she's frustrating me, yeah, I mean, she needs to know that.
	And, you know, I say to her, this doesn't mean you have to do anything different.
	I'm just telling you that I'm frustrated.
	Now, of course, she usually does choose to do something different, but that's, you know, I'm telling you that I'm frustrated because otherwise she's so perceptive.
	I mean, it's eerie. It's eerie.
	You know, if I'm feeling grumbly about something, she's like, Dad, are you sad?
	Again, it's almost like I don't even have to come in the room.
	She can tell it from the breath that comes in ahead of me.
	I mean, the other day, it's so funny.
	I think I've told the stories.
	So this is a couple of months ago.
	You know, she's got, she loves playing with candy.
	And she doesn't really eat it much, but she loves playing with it.
	But every now and then, you know, I'll grab one of the M&Ms and put it in my mouth and eat it.
	If I just want, you know, a little sugar hit or something.
	And so she was playing away with her candies, and I was behind her.
	And, you know, like all good stealth parents, I popped a little tiny M&M in, and it was like a bat couldn't have heard it.
	It was so silent.
	I walked up to her at the table.
	She glanced up. It wasn't even a tenth of a second that she glanced up.
	And I wasn't chewing. It was under my tongue.
	I was just going to let it melt and enjoy a little bit of sugary goodness.
	She glanced up and said, Dad, what are you eating?
	And I'm like, how could you know?
	How could you do that? It's in the back of your head.
	Do you have x-ray vision? Do you have some sort of superpower that I'm just not aware of?
	You must have gotten it from your mother because she knows that stuff too.
	It was the look of smug satisfaction in your eyes.
	I thought I was covering that up pretty well.
	I trained as an actor.
	I should be able to handle fooling a two-and-a-half-year-old.
	I've watched your video podcast.
	You wear your heart on your sleeve, man.
	I guess that's true. Apparently, I wear my chocolate on my lips.
	If I'm frustrated, I can't pretend that I'm not.
	I mean, I could, but that would just be confusing to her.
	And what that would teach her is that when you're frustrated, you should hide it from people, and I don't want her to hide her feelings from me, and so I can't give a UPB thing out called, don't hide your feelings, and then hide my feelings.
	I mean, I could, but that's just not going to be good for her.
	Okay.
	Again, I would be happy to talk about this for the rest of the afternoon, but I want to let some other people get some questions in.
	Yeah, thank you so much. And listen, anytime you want to call in and keep me updated with what works and what doesn't, I would be more than happy to hear it because it's really great to hear from other people what's working as well.
	I would love to. Thanks, man.
	All my best to your family. Thanks.
	Bye. Bye. All right, next up we have Mark.
	Hey, Steph. Hello.
	Hey, I'll just hop right in.
	It mostly has to do with education and your plans for educating Isabella.
	Right now I'm covering my sister's maternity leave in her fourth grade classroom, so I'm experiencing some, I guess you might call them possible situations in there.
	Those are nine-year-olds, is that right?
	Yes. Nine to ten year olds.
	Right. I guess first I want to ask you, what's your general plan for educating Isabella?
	Because I was having conversations with other people about homeschooling and they say like, well, when you get into high school, you know, you're not as specialized as a biology teacher, so how are you going to blah, blah, blah?
	So like, it's so hard for me given the framework that I was born into with my mom being a teacher and whatnot.
	It's just like, the way that school is is so ingrained in how you learn.
	Yeah. And I'm having a hard time understanding when Isabella gets past the gross and order, you know, you're talking about the I don't know.
	I wish I had an answer for you at the moment.
	The only thing I can say is that it would take circumstances I can't even imagine to put her in public school.
	So, you know, I mean, we'll certainly give her the option if she wants to try school.
	If there's a good private school, then we'll give that a shot, I think.
	And if she doesn't like school and wants to stay home, then we'll figure it out.
	You know, you figure it out.
	You know, from other people I've talked about, we've got some friends in the States, just started homeschooling their kids.
	And you just...
	You figure it out. There are experts around.
	You hire people. I talked about this with David Friedman as well with his kids.
	You know, if your kids want to learn cello, then you just...
	You hire a cello teacher to come in.
	And, you know, if you don't know something about physics...
	There are lots of documentaries. There are lots of standardized tests and people who are marketing, either online or around.
	I mean, there's things that you can do to figure it out.
	I agree with you that it's not, I think if this is your position, it's not as ideal as if there were free market and education.
	Yeah, I absolutely agree.
	So you have to sort of make the best with what's available, but so far she has a very strong desire to learn and I was watching this show on 60 Minutes.
	I was watching 60 Minutes, which I haven't watched in like a year or two, but I was watching it the, I think last weekend, and there was a story about a kid who was turning autistic.
	He was sort of going into autism, never-never land, and his parents just worked ferociously with him.
	And please understand, I'm not trying to say that this Solved the problem because, I mean, who knows what the hell's going on with autism?
	But one of the results that came out of this was he came back sort of into the world with an unbelievably ferocious capacity for science and math.
	So he's currently, I think he's 12 or whatever, and he's going into his PhD at some Ivy League college.
	Oh, yes, yes, I saw that.
	Yeah, so, I mean... There's a pretty unusual educational situation.
	I mean, the kid went through six grades worth of material, I think, in 18 months or something like that.
	He taught himself calculus on his own, just cracked the books and just ground his way through it.
	His parents certainly don't have PhDs in all of this material, but they found a way.
	They just found a way. I really believe that where there's a will, there's a way.
	You can have all the resources, too.
	Yeah, there's way more resources now than there would have been, you know, even 20 years ago, or maybe even 10 years ago.
	So there's lots of self-directed learning capacities available for people, and I believe, given her drive for competence and mastery over various topics and skills, I don't see that that's necessarily going to abate.
	I mean, I still love learning new things, so I hope that's going to be part of it.
	I was a kid that spent most of my time in the hall, I'll tell you that much.
	And I'm very good if I want to learn something, I go learn it, skim by in school with a 3.5, not even trying, didn't turn in homework, that kind of thing.
	So I totally get that.
	I'm good at what I'm interested in.
	Right, and the stuff that you're not interested in, in a sense, why bother studying it until you get interested in it?
	I'll play the game well enough to get through the freaking system.
	Right. Yeah, I know that was certainly my approach.
	I mean, I didn't do any homework. Throughout high school, I would study a little bit for tests here and there.
	But now, I mean, that had some advantages for me, but it also had some disadvantages in that there are some things that you really can't learn very well without doing the homework.
	So I think in particular, I'm right at that point, yeah.
	Yeah, so I don't recommend it.
	I mean, my non-homework thing was just because my home life was too chaotic and stressful and I had jobs and all that.
	Yeah, it kind of goes back to what you don't want to encourage Isabella to only do things that she's good at and then to shy away with things that get hard because, you know...
	Right, right, right.
	So, yeah, I mean, I wish I had a plan.
	I don't. But to have a plan would be...
	So, to have a plan would be to say, I know what is best for Isabella's education.
	Not exactly, but it would...
	So, I guess my understanding I'm getting is that you're saying in your letter, like...
	I heard you mention in middle school there's so many hormones going on that you wouldn't want to sit them down.
	So essentially, she's just going to go to bed at a quote-unquote reasonable hour, so she'll probably learn that by the time she'd be middle school age.
	But to just wake up and do what she kind of likes and you facilitate whatever she wants to do, is that kind of what I'm hearing?
	Well, that's one possibility.
	I don't know. Again, I don't know because so much is going to be dependent upon what she prefers and also what she's drawn to.
	So, I know that there is an unschooling approach, which is where the kids do what they want.
	And, I mean, we'll just have to, you know, we'll have to surf that way.
	Yeah. You know, we'll have to surf that along and ride that ride with her involvement.
	So, okay, this is kind of a...
	Question is attached to that. Me being teaching fourth grade right now, I start to see these kind of hypocrisies and I see myself crossing them almost necessarily.
	What sort of hypocrisies?
	So you have a kid who's clearly been hit by his dad, he had poor parental experience, and he's, if you want to want an easy, I'll classify him as ADHD. He moves around a lot.
	He wiggles and jiggles a lot.
	He gets in conflicts with other kids easily.
	He doesn't follow direct, you know, so a very inconvenient person to have in a public school system.
	Oh, yeah. By no means bad kid, very inconvenient.
	So when you have a ratio of 20 to 30 kids at once, this one kid's inconvenient, Hayward can become Increasingly inconvenient and disruptive from the other kids.
	So you've got to do things like, you don't want to say, like, get to the hall, but you say, okay, I'm going to, you lay the framework.
	If I have to warn you more than two times, I'm going to move you over here.
	If I have to warn you more than two times over here, I'm just going to, you're not ready to be a part of the group you're taking away.
	And you come back in when you feel that you can not be a distraction.
	And that's also because the costs of bad parenting are socialized, right?
	I mean, if this is, right, that's a real tragedy.
	This is one of the reasons why parents don't change.
	It doesn't directly financially cost them to put a troublesome kid in the school.
	It may cost them time. It may cost them some stress.
	But if your kid needs five times the teacher resources of other kids, then surely you should be paying more for the teacher's salary.
	And maybe that would cause you to reevaluate your method of, quote, discipline.
	Anyway, I just want to mention that.
	You have. That's what I'm starting to see.
	And that's what puts me in impossible situations because then this kid is again, from an authority figure, obviously being excluded over and over again.
	And you try to do it in the most logical way, like if-then statements and you lay out the framework ahead of time.
	But naturally, the girl who's much biologically more wired and able and had a better childhood, able to sit in her desk, is not going to receive that type of attention, negative attention from authority or perceived negative attention.
	Yeah, like I wonder how many kids would keep spanking if it cost them five times Yeah, every time you spank it.
	No, no, what I mean is like, so the teacher would say, oh, okay, so your kid's been spanked and she says she's been spanked, so you're going to have to pay us $20,000 instead of $4,000 per year.
	Do you really think that parents would say, yeah, I'm willing to spend an extra $16,000 a year to get my kid educated just to have the satisfaction of spanking?
	No, I think they'd say, hey, let's look into some peaceful parenting alternatives and save ourselves $16,000 a year.
	So I've come to the conclusion, like, I really got an early childhood degree.
	I got a major in education.
	And generally, I find that most people want well for the kids.
	I mean, the teachers, a lot of them, don't get me wrong, there's a spectrum.
	Anytime you have a profession, there's crap to good.
	That's just how it goes. But, you know, generally, teachers, I find them fairly benevolent, willing to help, generally kind outside of the work environment.
	Like, they don't seem like terribly...
	They're not trying to propel an evil system.
	They know it's corrupt, too. And what I'm trying to say is, is it effective to work within the system almost knowing the rules so well, knowing when you're able to break them, you know?
	Knowing which rules you can break and which ones you have to adhere to.
	Kind of like paying your taxes. Okay, I have to teach stuff that's going to be on this test or else I will lose my job.
	Well, okay, let's go back to the teacher's thing for a sec, because this could be a very deceptive thing in the world.
	And again, I'm not trying to paint any particular individual, of course, with any color, but I just sort of want to point this out.
	So, you know, the teachers, you say, are nice people, and they want the best for the kids.
	Okay, well, maybe that's the case, right?
	And look, I'm sure a lot of them are very nice, because when people get what they want, they tend to be quite nice.
	But if you were to say to the teachers, listen, in order for the quality, like if some politician, let's say Ron Paul gets in, whatever, right?
	I mean, I'm just really going out on a limb.
	I don't know what the hell the political structure of the U.S. educational system is.
	But let's say Ron Paul gets in and he goes to the teachers and says, okay, you've got to give up your summers off.
	You have to. I mean, it's archaic.
	It's ridiculous. No other profession in the world gets it.
	It's a leftover from the agricultural days, and it's really bad for the kids.
	If there was an increase in pay, it would be fine.
	Sorry? If there was an increase in pay, there would be fine.
	It would be fine, I think.
	Well, and unfortunately, your pensions are vastly underfunded and we're hugely in debt, partly because we've been paying you too much.
	And so we're no longer going to choose what to pay.
	The parents are going to choose what to pay because we're not going to have property taxes.
	We're going to let the parents choose what to pay.
	And look, if the parents want to pay you exactly the same and give you the summers off and you let their kids out at 3.15, though they don't get out of work till 5, that's, you know, obviously that's their choice.
	But, you know, if these parents would be willing to give up summers off and, you know, not getting paid so much and, you know, I've seen some studies where the teachers are basically working two and a half to three hours of actual teaching a day, which is pretty nutty for the amount of pay they get, the amount of benefits that you get, the amount of time off they get.
	If they're getting what they want, they got permanent job security, summers off, pretty decent pay, great benefits, professional days off, and they only have to work a couple hours a day, Yeah, okay, so they're pretty happy and they're pretty nice people.
	The question is, what happens if that situation becomes voluntary?
	What happens if they actually have to deal with the consequences of a free market situation?
	Would they be out there rioting and shaking their fists in the face of everyone saying, you bastards, this is not what we signed up for?
	Would the pleasant and genial mask fall down if they weren't being paid off all the time?
	I would guess it would, but you know the situation better than I do.
	I think it's worthwhile to ponder, but I do want to say that from my experiences personally and from witnessing other people's, you know, oftentimes I'll work six to seven days a week.
	So yeah, this is my first year in it, so I haven't experienced what it's like to be a teacher, teach, and then have a summer off.
	But what I've experienced and what I've seen is that people put in a lot more time you don't see before and after school that isn't on the contract hours.
	Well, certainly when they're starting out, but I think as they move up, right?
	Yeah, the job definitely, that's what I'm trying to say.
	The quality control is really hard, and it's too hard to fire a teacher.
	I was having a conversation with my sister, but it's too hard to fire a teacher.
	It's too damn hard. It's effectively impossible.
	I mean, you can, even if the teacher molests a kid and is charged and convicted of it, you still can't fire them.
	You can put them in these rubber rooms and give them pay for playing cards.
	Exactly. So that's bullshit. That's bullshit.
	So what I'm trying to get at is, given the framework and the structure, am I doomed to just do damage control in the amount that they get fucked up?
	Or can I actually do good?
	So is my goal to reduce the negative amount of damage?
	Look, you're in the environment, right?
	And I was a teacher's aide...
	God knows how many years ago, and I worked in a daycare, and this was certainly mostly pre-philosophy for me.
	So I can't tell you in terms of your experience in the environment, but what do you think?
	What do you think the answer to that question is?
	You can't fix a system from within it, for sure.
	Yeah, I think you can do good, but you're going to have to do good by being super awesome to account for the times that you'll never really have to contradict your values, if that makes any sense.
	Right, okay, so you can bring sort of more peaceful and positive interactions, although there will be times where you will do stuff that you don't want to do because of the regulations or what you consider not good, right?
	Yeah, things that you have to do or it's like you lose job type stuff or things that you have to do or another kid, you know, the classrooms.
	When the ratio is 1 to 20, it can be pretty, people just have to obey rules and you can't always stop and explain them.
	You can explain them as a class, but if one kid was breaking a rule each time and you take the time to do what you do with Isabella, okay, listen, I know frustration is bubble.
	You can do that sometimes, but you can't do that every time because if you do that, then you have X amount of kids over here.
	It's a really big juggling act.
	And sometimes stopping and have that long, rational, logical conversation isn't something that's necessarily possible if you give any resources at that moment.
	Well, but in my experience, you can talk to a group of kids about, like, say, okay, who here gets frustrated?
	You know, when do you get frustrated?
	What does it mean if you get frustrated?
	If you give up, does it still feel frustrating?
	Right? You can get them to have a general, I mean, I know that's not always easy because they're doing other stuff, but you can, you know, it's time for circle time and talk about our feelings.
	But I mean, obviously there is stuff that you can do even around those kinds of topics where you can engage kids in the beginnings of introspection, which is why am I having the feeling that I'm feeling and what should my reaction be to it if I want to achieve some particular goal.
	And sometimes I'll stop the class and I'll say, hey, listen right now, I'm getting pretty frustrated here because I don't want to be holding people into recess and doing this, that, or the other, but my job is to make sure we get through the day and we cover these topics.
	And I see a lot of people not using their time correctly.
	They're doing other things than what we're supposed to be doing so we can be on schedule.
	So I'm kind of frustrated right now because it's hard for me to do my job and I don't want to hold kids in for recess, so what can we do?
	And we just stop and people raise their hands and then we go back to it and it's usually much smoother.
	Yeah. Right. Although they may not be that impressed by your desire to do your job.
	That's not their business. Exactly.
	I mean, it's like, okay, I'm getting frustrated because you're not doing what I'm asking you to do.
	I mean, that's what I'm talking about.
	That's like the inherent contradiction of it.
	Well, yeah. And that, of course, doesn't hold up UPB-wise, right?
	Because then they can say, well, we want you to not interrupt us.
	So you're not doing what we want to do, right?
	So, I mean, that is the challenge about how to communicate to kids about a goal that they actually want.
	That you can share with them, right?
	And in a way that they understand, given that they're much more into short-term gratification.
	Yeah, most people will say Nintendo DS, to be honest with you.
	What do you want to do? Oh, yeah.
	Like, how can I obey you to get you off my back, right?
	Right, it's not exactly enrolling them into a proactive solution that they can internalize and use for the rest of their lives, right?
	Yeah. I mean, so...
	But you can explore ways to figure out how to explain to kids why they should do what you're doing by appealing to their self-interest.
	I mean, that's obviously a big challenge with a group of kids.
	But it is possible... Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, my experiences with doing that on such a, I guess...
	It's hard... I mean, kids obviously...
	Hell, I have a hard time with delayed gratification sometimes.
	So, shit, if I'm trying to talk to a kid and I'm saying you need to read and write because you need to be literate for a job later on, that doesn't mean anything to them.
	I mean, really, it doesn't. I mean, that's like...
	I mean, what is it? I think only a third of Americans are saving for retirement who they're talking about kids' deferred gratification, right?
	Exactly. So, like, you know, what a...
	Can you give me an example of an instance in which, let's say, a kid was off-task.
	We were doing a writing assignment and he was consistently chatting with his partner.
	It's not like he was chatting here and there and getting his work done.
	I have no problem if you're chatting. If you're chatting and you're working at a steady pace, that's fine.
	I get that. But if all you're doing is chatting and there's nothing on paper, Well, of course, the first challenge of authority is not dictation, but questions, right?
	Yeah. The first challenge of authority is to ask, not to dictate.
	So the question is, well, you know, why?
	Tell me, why is this boring to you?
	I mean, and not sarcastic.
	I'm sorry, are we boring you, right?
	But I mean, but why?
	So if a kid's consistently late, well, why?
	You know, I mean, I was late for a lot of stuff when I was a kid and a teenager in school and this and that.
	Nobody ever asked why. They'd get pissed off and yell at me or whatever and punish me or whatever, but nobody ever said, well, why are you late?
	And of course, you know, I mean, I would have told the truth about my home life, family situation, financial situation, the stresses, the jobs, the exhaustion, all that sort of stuff.
	But nobody asked, right?
	And if nobody ever asks me, I mean, this is my fundamental problem with authority when I was a kid.
	Let's talk about me! Which is that nobody ever asked why I was doing what I was doing.
	Because there is a communication in everything that people do.
	Everyone comes with subtitles.
	Almost every action comes with subtitles.
	And so the question is, why is the child not paying attention?
	And look, you may get an answer that you don't like.
	You're boring. Okay, tell me what it is I'm doing that's boring.
	And look, I guarantee you, compared to an Xbox with a Kinect, you're boring.
	I'm boring. Compared to the other stimulation that they can get, By, you know, playing Wi-Fi air hockey over iPads, I mean, we're all boring and much less fun than the, you know, endless rounds of Treehouse and, you know, direct-to-brainstem video stimulation from a variety of sources.
	And so, yeah, okay, so, or, you know, I don't get why this is important.
	I don't care why this is important.
	And that's a challenge.
	I mean, that is a challenge. How do you explain to a kid, as you say, how do you explain to a kid why math is...
	I mean, I remember grinding my sorry ass through...
	Algebraic division. You know, where you're working with letters, not numbers.
	And it was like, oh my god, it took me forever to learn that shit.
	I had to go back and learn fourth grade math, for god's sakes.
	And I'm not stupid.
	I just had no need for it, so I forgot it, naturally.
	Right, right. So, I mean, I've ground my brain into dust learning how to do it.
	I actually, when I was, I don't know, I can't remember, 16, 15 or 16, I got so frustrated with always getting 55 in math.
	Basically, it was a generous 55 called, let me not see your sorry ass again.
	I actually took grade 11 math again, voluntarily, just I thought, you know, because I'm constantly like, if I didn't learn the last year, I'm not going to learn this year and all building up.
	So I took it again. I got like, I think I got a 78 and that helped a lot in terms.
	So I just sort of said, okay, I hate math, but I'm going to take this course again because I've got to start understanding this shit or it's just going to, you know, forever, right?
	And so, yeah, so the question is, well, why should I learn this stuff?
	So, you know, if I had gone to my math teacher and say, why am I learning algebraic long division?
	I've never used it again since.
	Never used it again since.
	And we've got calculators.
	So I was a geek with a calculator watch.
	I've got a calculator watch. Why am I learning all this stuff?
	I was programming computers since I was 11.
	Why am I learning this stuff?
	There's no need to do it. It's like saying, we're going to teach you how to make your own paper.
	It's like, I don't want to make my own paper.
	I want to go down to Grand Toy and buy some dead trees and a stack for $1.99.
	And so, the question is why?
	So, if I had gone to my teacher, I guarantee you, he would not have been able to answer me.
	It's on the test. That's not, you know, that's begging the question.
	Why do you need to learn it? Because you're going to be tested on it.
	Well, that's not answering the question, right?
	That's because you got tested on something.
	Why do you choose this rather than that?
	Now, if you say, well, it teaches you reasoning skills.
	Yeah, that's what I was going to say.
	Okay, well, then why aren't you teaching me logic?
	Like, why are you teaching me Reasoning skills through algebra rather than teaching me logic.
	We can't teach you logic because if we teach you logic, you're going to ask us about God.
	And if we teach you logic, you're going to ask us about countries.
	And if you teach you logic, you're going to ask us about soldiers and war and we can't go there.
	We can only inflict logic on you in weird, indirect ways through algebra and geometry and science and shit like that.
	Sorry? Between the scarring.
	You just need logic just enough but not too much where it removes the scarring.
	Right, yeah. We have to teach you to be averse to logic by punishing you for unusable, incomprehensible logic that is never going to be a future utility, which is going to bore the pants out of you.
	Basically, we're going to give you Pavlovian aversion to logic because everything that we teach you that is logical is going to be boring and horrible.
	And, of course, the way that you get kids interested in this sort of stuff is with real-world examples, right?
	So, hey, let's use logic to examine the question of God's.
	Well, God's is pretty important to kids, right?
	I mean, especially if they've been raised religious, let's talk about it, right?
	Let's talk about science. There's a Jehovah Witness in my class, but you get into a whole different set of political issues.
	Yeah, I mean, you can't teach values in a government.
	No, you can't. The craziest people are going to make your life hell, right?
	I feel like my job is, do you watch The Biggest Loser?
	I do not. Have you seen The Biggest Loser?
	Are you aware of the concept? It's a weight loss show.
	It's a weight loss show where people go there to lose massive amounts of weight and the trainers drill them and all this, that, and the other.
	And I feel like...
	Sorry, that's just a funny way of putting it.
	It is. No, it is.
	Obviously, if the women get drilled, they might be gaining weight.
	But anyway, go on. Sorry. So, no.
	Less am I adopting this idea that teachers are like these virtuous, noble, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	That died off a while ago. But no longer do I kind of buy into that.
	And I'm more starting to think that I am a drill sergeant For X, Y, and Z skills.
	And my goal is to inflict those as painlessly as possible, however, knowing that there is pain going into it.
	Well, yeah, look, I mean, the only thing that I will say is that if you stay in your current environment, yeah, no question, no doubt that there's good that you can do.
	I mean, to take a completely extreme example, some of the Germans who stayed in Germany during the Nazi time got to hide Jews.
	Yeah, that would be hiding Jews.
	I'm sorry? Yeah, it's a completely extreme example, but I'm just sort of pointing out that staying in even the most evil environment conceivable, you can do some good.
	But here's the reality.
	Look, you are going to be pretty censored, self-censored there, right?
	Yes. So, if any religious questions come up, you're going to have to shut your ass quick, right?
	It'll just be... This is not a place where we can discuss this.
	Right. Which is going to...
	Why can't we discuss this? So, basically, you're going to say, well, this really important question of knowledge is completely inappropriate to a place of education.
	Well, yeah. You're not necessarily...
	Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, but you understand.
	So this piece of knowledge that you desperately want to acquire is inappropriate to a place where you're supposed to learn something important.
	I would tell them to Google it, maybe.
	That would be the easiest way for me to help out.
	Like, I don't know, go to Free Debate Radio.
	No, I couldn't even say that. No, I think that's not really a very child-friendly curriculum.
	Indoctrination? Hey, come on, man. They'll start tithing.
	It'll be great. No, but you see, and this is going to show up a lot, right?
	Or, you know, if any kid asks you, what do you think about spanking?
	What are you going to say? Well, I'm going to tell them I don't believe it's correct.
	Which is not true. It's not a belief, right?
	It's not. Research shows it's an inadequate way of raising a child peacefully.
	Inadequate? See, you've got Weaselworth coming out already.
	I'm not criticizing you.
	It's a shitty way that produces really bad results.
	Well, it's abusive, and it's directly harmful to the child, and it results usually from parents who hit themselves who haven't done anything to deal with their trauma.
	But it's got nothing to do with actually educating children.
	I mean, it's just a way for angry parents to unload.
	I mean, look, I'm not suggesting you would ever say that, but this is the point.
	Yeah, the fact is that I can't say that.
	You can't say that. And, of course, you can't say your parents are forced to pay for my salary.
	Yeah. Right?
	You can't say that you are forced to be here.
	You have no choice in the matter.
	To the kids, right? You can't tell them any of the basic truths about their environment.
	And you also can't say, there's a huge amount of stuff that I would like to teach you that would be absolutely essential for your life, which I absolutely cannot do.
	...about their environment.
	Right? Yeah.
	And look, again, I'm not saying that you should say anything, but this is the reality is that you can't.
	I'm just realizing this is, yeah, school is not a place, school is a drill sergeant place for math, reading...
	And writing. That's essentially what I'm saying.
	It's not a place for real questions.
	It's like if you wanted to learn how to dribble with your left hand, I would just drill into you how to dribble with your left hand.
	It wouldn't answer any other basketball questions.
	It would just be... It's not a whole...
	School is a place where you learn that knowledge may have utility, but it never has value.
	It never has values. It never contains anything that is applicable to your life in a day-to-day sense.
	And you can never learn anything that is true or virtuous or that will make you happier.
	It is a place where you may learn some knowledge that has some utility.
	Yeah, calculate a percentage.
	Yeah, it's fine. Whatever. You can do that in your life.
	But it is not a place where knowledge has any importance, like fundamental importance.
	It may have utility, Yeah.
	Like, you know, if someone teaches me how to hammer a nail into the wall when I'm a kid, that has value, and I'll do that a couple of dozen times throughout the course of my life, and I'll be happy that I know how to do it.
	But it doesn't make me a better person.
	It doesn't make me a happier person. It just means I've got some skill, some utilitarian skill that I can do, but I haven't learned anything of any real value.
	Like, nobody would say, you know, don't go to the priest and say, priest, father, I'm miserable in my marriage, and he'll say, listen, I'm going to teach you how to hammer a nail in.
	And that's going to make you happier.
	No, you're going to recognize that as completely unrelated.
	And so, yeah, for learning particular utilitarian things, it's, you know, you can do it, but it's not going to teach you anything of any real value or importance or meaning that's going to make your life better or happier.
	Yeah, that's the thing is I'm not in it because I think those things are important.
	I'm in it because it gives me six, seven hours a day with kids where at least I get to know...
	I get to have a relationship with the authority figure who's in charge of running the show.
	Right. And from that standpoint, I genuinely...
	I never tell people what to do.
	I mean, obviously, but the important thing is to just be fully aware of the choices.
	So the good that you can do, yes, no question that you can do some good.
	I have no doubt about that. And I want to thank you for being where you are and for considering what you're considering.
	But you need to be conscious of the limitations.
	And you need to be conscious of what you're going to have to avoid and you need to be conscious or at least imagine what it's going to be like year after year having to avoid that which you consider most important and most essential.
	Now, if you can do that, and certainly I can see value in that and nobody can tell you whether that's the right or wrong decision for you except for you, but just be conscious of What you will not be able to do.
	Now, I'm not saying that if you go do some other job, you probably won't be able to say it there either, right?
	So, there's not a lot of jobs where you can say that.
	It's not even a job. You know, a few other people have them, but there's not many jobs where you can just, you know, light up the sky and go for truth, right?
	Yeah. Stand-up comics about it.
	Maybe, yeah, maybe. Maybe, yeah.
	Yeah, certainly George Carlin and other people have gotten some important stuff across the But the world is not overflowing with lucrative jobs through truth-tellers, to put it mildly.
	So this may be the place where you can do the most good and where you will be able to get some values across because, of course, you can teach implicitly through example where you can't teach explicitly by language, right?
	Yeah, negotiation. Okay, why?
	Yeah, if you treat the kids as full-on human beings, then you're teaching them something about who they are and their value without ever saying anything about philosophy, right?
	Yeah. Hey, I want to cut it short, or not even short.
	I want to cut it off so these other people at least get a chance to say one more.
	I'm not sure. I'm going to do the internal struggle of whether or not I want to metaphorically smuggle Jews or not.
	Thank you so much, as usual. See ya.
	Oh, yeah, man. And good luck to you.
	And, yeah, if you do decide, keep me...
	Keep me posted. I mean, if you want my opinion, I'm leaning a little bit more towards staying in the environment, but that's obviously completely...
	That's kind of... It's a struggle because, yeah, exactly.
	Thank you very much. I appreciate it. You're very welcome, and best of luck to you, and congratulations on being a...
	Sounds like a great teacher, and your kids are very, very lucky to have you, so...
	Thank you so much. All right.
	Bye. All right, next up we have Johan.
	Yeah, hello. Hello, how are you?
	Yeah, I'm okay.
	I talked with you, spoke with you, I guess you say, last October, I think, and I'm from Sweden.
	I talked to you about my childhood and my mother, who most likely is having It has some form of mental disease or something.
	Yes, I remember. How are you?
	Well, I'm still depressed and not too well, I guess.
	I guess I had some questions about...
	The depression and how to deal with it.
	I think I mentioned before that I am seeing a psychiatrist at a, I guess, youth clinic.
	And I've been speaking with her for a year, I guess.
	And she has been Pushing or maybe not pushing but suggesting that I should take antidepressants and I guess I've been very ambivalent and I haven't tried them but she thinks that they will do me a lot of good and But,
	I don't know. I feel I'm just at a standstill.
	It's been so far quite a while.
	Right. Well, look, I mean, first and foremost, obviously I'm not competent to give any kind of medical or psychological advice, but before you take any antidepressants, please, please, please read up on some of the literature.
	Robert Whitaker's Anatomy of an Epidemic.
	I just did an interview with him a week or two ago.
	Pretty essential reading.
	I think it's really, really important to read about the long-term effects of these medications and the degree to which they damn well don't seem to do any better than placebo, but come with a whole host of potential medical complications that are serious and have risks of suicidality and homicidality.
	Again, I'm in no way, shape, or form competent to do any of this stuff, but please just read up on the literature that is skeptical of the value of these supposed medications.
	Read some Thomas Saz, S-Z-A-S-Z, I think.
	I think he's got the myth of mental illness and so on.
	S-Z-A-S-Z. Yes.
	Okay, so I've never taken any of this stuff.
	Even when I was in therapy for years and had 18 months of crippling insomnia, I didn't even take a sleeping pill.
	And I'm very glad that I didn't.
	And so, again, This is not my area of expertise, but please, please, please just read up on some of the literature questioning the efficacy and value of these supposed medicines before deciding to take them.
	Why do you think that you're still depressed?
	And again, this is just an idiot amateur hour on the internet time as usual, but tell me why you think that you're still depressed.
	Were you hoping to be less depressed now than you were a year ago?
	Do you feel that you've made progress or do you feel stalled?
	I feel like I have probably deteriorated, I guess.
	Well, I feel like I've been depressed for so long, for I guess most of my teenage years.
	I recently turned 20, so...
	And I don't really know.
	I am very confused and I feel like I have sort of painted myself in a corner with my Confused thoughts and maybe come to some conclusions that aren't really valid but they stick to my head.
	I don't know whether or not I'm a good person or if Really, how I should go about getting better, really. I want to do it the right way, I guess.
	And what do you consider the ailment?
	How would you describe the ailment that you have?
	How I feel? Yeah, no, because you say, I don't know how to get better, but how would you characterize the ailment that you have?
	Better than what? Like, what is the...
	I'm sorry, what did you say?
	Well, what is the ailment that you want cured?
	How would you describe the ailment that you want cured or changed?
	Well, I do want to be happy and I guess productive and get on with my life but I guess I want truth really and I don't I don't know how really to go about it.
	I have found some real useful things listening to you, and that's been great, but I don't really know.
	I spend a lot of time, I guess, occupying myself with things that aren't really going to make myself, make me feel any better in the long run.
	And I know, I don't know, I heard you say that You just need like 5-10 minutes to think about your life if you really think about what it is that is wrong or what you want.
	Many people spend a lot of time avoiding that and that's what I do.
	Let me ask you, I appreciate that.
	Let me ask you a question or two.
	These are just thoughts that have occurred to me.
	So, you obviously, you had a difficult childhood.
	I think that's fair to say, if I remember our conversation before rightly, with a very difficult mother, right?
	Yeah. If you had gotten polio when you were a kid, and you had...
	You were in a wheelchair or you had to walk with a cane or you had loss of motor control over some parts of your body.
	People would be very sympathetic to that, right?
	Yeah. And you would receive sympathy, people would adjust Their expectations, I mean, nobody would sit there and say, hey, let's go play basketball. I mean, they might, but they'd be a total douche for saying that, right?
	Yeah. So, you had a very difficult childhood with a very difficult mom.
	Is this part of people's understanding of you, like the people in your life, the people around you, sort of friends and relatives?
	Are you treated with the care and concern and sympathy that I think would be due anybody who experienced this kind of difficult childhood?
	I don't...
	I don't know how to answer that.
	I have been feeling very lonely, but I've sort of been pushing myself away from family and friends because I don't feel...
	I have pretty low self-esteem, so...
	Well, let me ask you this.
	Has anybody in your life, outside of your...
	Psychiatrist. Has anybody in your life who knew you as a child or who's known you growing up sat down with you and said, listen, that was a really tough time for you as a kid, wasn't it?
	That was really, really difficult and horrible in many ways.
	I wish I could have done something at the time.
	I paced back and forth all night sometimes in my room thinking about anything I could do, but the way the laws are, the way your mom was, the way the society is, I just couldn't figure out a way To help you.
	But now that you're an adult, now that you're out on your own, I feel like I can ask you the questions and give you the sympathy that I just couldn't give to you when you were a child.
	And that's terrible. I feel terrible about that because that's actually when you needed sympathy and love and compassion the most when you were wrestling with this awful, awful situation which no child, no child should ever have to deal with and which you dealt with Month after month, year after year, with nobody reaching in to help you out, or even acknowledge that it was a difficult situation, a horrible situation to be in.
	But now that you're an adult, I feel like I can break the silence, I can tell you what was on my mind all these years, and I can express to you my incredibly deep sympathy for what you went through.
	I can express to you my unbelievably deep shame and sorrow that I did not find a way I felt I couldn't do it before.
	And to tell you that even though it's late in the game and too late to help you when you were a child, I know what you suffered.
	I saw it. It broke my heart.
	It still breaks my heart, but what I want to tell you now, what I want to tell you now, Is that I am here for you to help you pick up the pieces.
	I am here for you to give you whatever resources you need.
	Financial resources, emotional resources, sympathy, care, concern, love, apologies from here to eternity.
	To help you regain some sense of trust and faith and belief in the world.
	Because, damn it, I can imagine, and I thought about this so many times when you were a kid, I can imagine just what you must have thought of a world that ignored your suffering, that refused to even acknowledge it, let alone help you deal with it, that turned a blind eye to everything that you had to struggle with and everything that you had to go through.
	Because you must have formed a vision of the world That was full of such cold, uncaring, self-indulgent, self-involved robots that I can't imagine what you must think of the world now.
	But I'm here to tell you that it doesn't always have to be this way, that the world can be a warmer and, not even warmer, a warm, vaguely warm, caring and concerned place.
	For you to be and for you to live in and that doesn't always have to be the way that it was when you were a kid and had to deal with all of this stuff alone.
	And so I'm just telling you I'm here for anything that you need, 3 o'clock in the morning, 5 o'clock in the morning.
	You phone me. You talk to me.
	We will go out for lunch every day, every week, every month, whatever works for you best so that you can get a sense that there are people here who care for you and who are willing to do whatever it takes to restore your faith in the world, which was sorely damaged, I hope not irrevocably, by the degree to which you did not experience the just and necessary sympathy for what you went through as a child.
	Yeah, well, no one has quite said it like that.
	I spoke with my uncle's wife, I guess you can call her my aunt, who has seen me grow up and who I spent a lot of time with.
	Especially during the summers and such growing up.
	And she and I had some conversations maybe a year ago where I told her pretty much everything since I had felt so isolated for such a long time.
	But I don't know, that's stopped, and I haven't...
	I haven't really had...
	I don't know if courage is the right word, but I haven't sort of reached out to anyone.
	Shouldn't be your job. Shouldn't be your job.
	No? No.
	It shouldn't be your job.
	Yeah. I have two friends who I don't speak a lot to, but they have told me that they are There if I ever want to talk, but I don't know.
	It's hard for me to initiate.
	Sorry, you don't know this. I mean, I would imagine from your history, and it's uncommon knowledge.
	That's not what being there for someone is.
	Being there for someone is not saying, give me a call if you need anything.
	That is not the same as being there for someone.
	Being there for someone is being proactive, particularly someone who's...
	I mean, saying to a depressed person, call me if you need anything, is...
	It's like saying to a drowning person, give me a shout, you know, when you learn to swim.
	Yeah. People need to fill up the emptiness with warmth.
	In my view, admittedly, ridiculously amateur view, depression is a social vacuum caused by coldness.
	It is not an individual issue.
	It is a relationship issue.
	It is the relationship with society.
	It's the relationship with the world.
	It is the holiness that comes from an uncaring world.
	Because people Claim to be nice.
	People claim that they care about the whales and the ozone layer and global warming and they just care and the children and Whitney Houston songs make me cry and we care so much for everyone.
	We're so much full of love and we care about the poor and we care about the old and we have all these pension plans because we care about the needy and health care for the poor.
	We care, we care, we fucking care for everything, everyone all the time.
	Just one big giant beating, bleeding sympathetic heart dominating the world.
	That's what people say. That's what people say.
	But my standard is the standard of truth.
	And the standard of truth is I don't care what people say.
	I care what people do.
	And I have told some people in my life, who'd been in my life for many years, about the truth of my history.
	And yeah, they listened once and they made some sympathetic noises.
	And then the topic never, ever came up again.
	And unfortunately that told me everything I needed to know.
	Right? Childhood trauma is not something you mention to someone once and then it's all better.
	It's something that if people claim that they care about the world, I mean, you live in Sweden, right?
	Cradle to grave socialism. We care about the needy.
	We care about the poor. We are such a fucking caring society.
	We're so caring that when someone talks about personal pain, we ignore them.
	Because that's how full of love we are.
	We love the abstract.
	We love the laws. We love the socialism.
	We love the government. We love the pension schemes.
	We love the welfare. We love the education.
	We love all of the abstract things that do not require a single drop of human sympathy from us in any actual relationship.
	The welfare shit is cold and requires no giving of a living human heart.
	That's one of the reasons it doesn't work.
	One of the many reasons it doesn't work.
	But if you claim to live in a compassionate society, I don't judge someone's compassion by their abstract support of a system they never created, enforced by strangers at the point of a gun that doesn't pay for its own sustenance.
	I don't care if somebody supports the welfare state and claims that they're a good person because of that.
	What I care about is how do you show your love, not to the abstract old or the abstract poor or the abstract sick or the abstract children.
	How do you show your love to the people in your life who could actually benefit from your emotion, could actually Benefit from your love, who need it like a camel needs water.
	That's the true measure of the virtue, compassion and love in your society.
	The idea that people would judge the compassion of a society by the laws the government imposes is madness.
	People will look at us down the tunnel from the future and wonder how we put one foot in front of the other.
	We're so insane. So if you suffered this much as a child, and you do not have people who are willing to help you, even with the excuse that maybe they couldn't have found a way to help you when you were a kid, but you're not a kid anymore.
	And you need your society to fill you back up with some faith in the belief of the virtue of your society.
	You need some people to actually show you some eye contact, human compassion and love.
	Not in the abstract, we've got a fucking lore thing.
	Yeah. I don't know, maybe I think those few people in my life want to help me, but maybe they just don't dare to be very proactive about it.
	That's called not helping someone though, right?
	That's called, I'm not very comfortable with this, so I'm going to choose my discomfort over another person's desperate human need.
	That tells you where you stand in the prioritization of others.
	Well, I'd really like to stop this guy who's got a flat tire by the side of the road and no cell phone, But it's a little windy out.
	And I just did my hair.
	And so I'll just keep driving.
	But I'm a really good person who really cares about people.
	And that's nothing compared to people who may have known you for years.
	I'll give you my ridiculous two cents worth.
	I'll tell you what I think depression as a whole comes from.
	I don't know. I think that the people who tend to get the most depressed are the people who've actually needed something from society of value, of virtue.
	They've actually needed some love and some compassion and some care from society and they have realized that it is in pretty scarce supply.
	And that's some pretty depressing shit right there, right?
	And not because it's not there.
	But because everyone thinks it is there.
	Right? Because everyone says we live in such a caring and virtuous and good society, right?
	Yeah, I agree. And if it's not there, and people don't even know that it's not there, then you're living in a world of crazy people.
	And pompous, self-praising, patted themselves on the back for being so damn virtuous people.
	It's like a table full of fat men talking about how much they care about feeding the poor while there are literally starving children all around the table.
	And the fat men have finished their meal and there's leftovers.
	And the children are staring at the food.
	Weak with hunger. Hands shaking from hunger and thirst.
	And looking at the juice and the cakes and the meats and the bread, butter, honey.
	The fat man, oh, we got to do something about the poor.
	I care so much about the poor.
	It's all I think about day and night is caring for the poor.
	Hey, get away from my table, kid.
	Back away from that bread.
	I'm full, but I might want some later.
	Back off. On your bony stick spider arms.
	Yep. That's what it is like when you are hungry for compassion.
	Not in society as a whole.
	Just in the people in your life who've been in your life for years who probably say to you, I love you.
	Or may at least claim that that's the case.
	Say, okay, you love me.
	No, I haven't heard it. I'm so sorry.
	I'm so sorry. I mean, I feel love for your honesty in just talking about this.
	But it's when you actually need something in society, when you actually are owed something by society in terms of compassion, right?
	Because people who are in your life, who didn't protect you or help you when you were suffering, and who claim to love you, they owe you something.
	It's a voluntary contract because they're saying they love you.
	They're saying that they care for you. They say that they want the best for you.
	So, they owe you something.
	I mean, a guy I hire to help me with my nutrition owes me his best professional advice about nutrition.
	It's much less important than someone who claims that they love me and want the best for me in my life, in my family, in my community, in my circle of friends.
	Yeah. Sorry, the depression, I don't mean to interrupt you.
	I'm so sorry. It's the last thing I'll say, because the last thing I want to say is, you know, you're depressed because people don't listen, and they don't listen.
	But I think the depression is, it comes from the emptiness of others.
	It comes from the hypocrisy of others.
	It comes from the fact that people say a lot of shit about caring about people, but when it actually comes to overcoming their own discomforts, to put that caring into practice, they won't bother.
	They'll Throw on the TV. They'll go see a movie.
	They'll play a video game. They'll go dancing.
	They'll go drinking. They'll do anything rather than actually reach out and help a suffering soul who they claim to love.
	And I think that is society's emptiness, shame, and guilt as a whole rather than something that is specific to you as an individual.
	Anyway, that's my two-bit theory.
	theory now I will shut the heck up.
	Yeah, well I guess I've been sort of blaming myself for not doing more or being better than I am for a long time.
	Well, I would stop blaming yourself and start to...
	Because that's to say that you exist in isolation.
	You don't exist in isolation.
	You exist in a social network within a culture, a society, a country, and a circle of people, friends, and family who claim to love you.
	Yeah. You know, if the bleeding guy in the gutter has people stepping over him to get to the bar, does he say, I'm doing something wrong?
	I'm not bleeding the right way.
	I'm not inviting enough.
	Maybe these bloodstains are not arranged in an artful way.
	Maybe I should be lying with this foot under me and not that foot under me.
	Maybe I need to smile more winningly in order to get people to help me.
	No! The guilt is not In the attitude of the victim.
	The guilt is in all the assholes stepping over the bleeding man or looking away.
	Yeah. Don't take that guilt.
	You suffered through no fault of your own as a child.
	You suffered through no fault of your own as a child.
	The effects of that have you suffering through no fault of your own as an adult.
	And it is up to your society to get off its ass and do something to actually help you.
	And if you have to do it and you have to encourage people and you have to cajole people and you have to remind people to help you, they're not too fucking helpful.
	But should I give up on that?
	Or should I maybe start pushing people to help me more?
	Well, I wouldn't... Maybe then I would get some help.
	This is what everyone wants to do.
	Let's assume that what I'm saying has some truth to it.
	Let's just assume that for the moment.
	Then people immediately want to say, well, what should I do with this knowledge?
	No, no, no, no. If you've just learned something new, you need to absorb it.
	If what I'm saying has some truth to it, then you need to just sit and process it and say, okay...
	So this is the society that I live in.
	To say immediately what should I do with this new insight is to actually avoid processing the insight and say we must turn the new knowledge directly into action.
	Right? But if there's truth in what I'm saying then you need to sit that's a pretty powerful insight about you and the world and history and your society and everyone around you and love and compassion and friendship and family and it's a huge amount to process.
	So process it. I mean, it's like you're a starving guy, somebody just laid out a big feast, and you're saying, okay, where do I shit this?
	this no no no no first you must eat then you shit right well i will definitely mother to work yes yes This, I mean, well, tell me how you feel.
	Tell me. I'm giving you an order.
	I don't know. I agree with what you have said.
	Absolutely. I don't know.
	I guess there's some...
	It's hard for me to accept it.
	Right. Somebody's just asked, okay, but what can this caller do about the reality he lives in?
	That's a great question. But let's look practically.
	Can you make other people compassionate?
	Can you make other people live up to the values of love that they claim?
	You can't. You cannot make somebody compassionate.
	I guess I just don't want to think that the people around me aren't compassionate.
	Well, again, it's not something you think, it's something you observe.
	Right? I mean, you're like the Pope in the 16th century saying, well, I don't want to think of the Sun at the center of the solar system.
	I guess that's important to process, but the question is, is the Sun at the center of the solar system?
	Right? The question is, first and foremost, to deal not with your reactions to the facts, but whether they're facts at all.
	Right? Because if there are people who are compassionate in your life who've been knocking at your door with casseroles and conversation topics and asking you about this, that and the other and asking you to say everything that happened in your childhood that you think is important, if those people are there, then, you know, that's important, but you're saying that they're not.
	And you're 20, so it's not like people haven't had a couple of decades to show up, right?
	And obviously people in your life know that you're depressed, I would assume, unless you're able to put on a show, right?
	But this is why we have antidepressants.
	Because people would rather drug people in dangerous ways than open up their hearts to be compassionate and curious.
	And again, you see, the reason that I condemn people for this Like, in a way, you can't condemn a Nazi for being anti-Jewish.
	In a way. In a really weird way.
	Because he's not pretending he's pro-Jewish.
	He's right out there.
	You can condemn him for being bigoted, but you cannot condemn him for being hypocritical.
	Yeah. And this is hypocritical because you live in a society that claims compassion, that claims virtue, that claims sympathy, that claims love.
	Yeah, I guess I just don't know what to do with that information.
	Well, you don't do. Until I have absorbed it.
	Yeah, I mean, you have to absorb it.
	Look, be skeptical with everything I'm saying.
	Everything that I'm saying, everybody should always...
	I am, right?
	Because if I come up with a thesis, the first place I look is, okay, well, what are the counterexamples?
	And that's a valuable thing to do.
	Everything falls down. Hey, there's a helium balloon going up.
	Okay, let's revise, right?
	My experience has been that when you talk about past pain, everybody gets really uncomfortable and the topic, they may listen and sort of make some sympathetic noises in the moment, but they are very uncomfortable and the topic never comes up again.
	Like you had your blurb, it was kind of weird, but okay, we're done.
	Let's go back to normal as if it never happened, right?
	That's been my experience.
	That's also been the experience of literally hundreds of people I've talked to about this Yeah, I guess I'll have to agree with that too.
	It is what is called society at the moment.
	And the reason, as I say, society is to blame is because everybody in society talks about how compassionate they are and how great it is, right?
	How people really care.
	Really care about the poor.
	We have a caring society.
	We give free healthcare to the poor.
	We're just so good at it, right?
	But not in their real life.
	Not where it actually demands something other than bland ideological adherence.
	And you see, people are so unable to genuinely help others that they would rather pay 50% taxation to a welfare state that screws the poor than actually help people in their lives.
	Do you understand what a barrier it is?
	This is why people get pillaged by their governments.
	Because they would rather sell off the poor to the political ambitions of sociopaths than actually have compassion for somebody in their lives who's hurting and needs love.
	And so you say, well, let's get rid of the welfare state.
	What? You mean I'm going to have to get involved?
	You mean I'm actually going to talk to these people?
	Are you kidding me? Because the vast majority of people who are poor, in my opinion, they're because they've been abused, are actually going to have to deal with the topic of abuse of children.
	No, no, no, no, no. I'll give up taxes.
	I'll have a huge government.
	I'll even risk war.
	I'll risk inflation, hyperinflation.
	I'll risk social collapse.
	I'll risk national debts.
	I'll put the kids into these state farm indoctrination camps.
	I'll do anything!
	rather than have to deal with this actual topic of the harm done to children.
	Yeah.
	Could I ask you about another thing?
	Is there time? We can keep it quick, but yes.
	Yeah, well, since there hasn't been much progress with me going and speaking with the psychiatrist, she and I have a pretty good, what do you call it, Relationship, I guess.
	But it hasn't helped me much with my depression.
	So now there's a possibility that I could Go to some sort of clinic which she would arrange and speak with, I guess, a therapist or a licensed psychologist or something like that.
	Do you think that could help or is it...
	Well, I mean, you know, I would certainly say that if you're not making much progress with any professional, I mean, if you said, I've been working with a dietician for a year and I haven't lost any weight, and in fact, I think I'm even heavier, I would say, well, yeah, it might be worth checking out a new dietician.
	It might be worth doing this.
	So, yeah, I mean, but, you know, I mean, I've put out a podcast with my Thoughts on how to choose a good therapist, which you might want to check out.
	It's in the stream. I don't know if anyone in the chat room knows the number, but that may be valuable.
	But don't just blindly put yourself in the hands of somebody with letters after their name and assume that the problems are going to get solved.
	I think it's important to be a skeptical consumer when it comes to mental health.
	Okay. Could you maybe give me those names for...
	That you said in the beginning, was it about skeptics?
	People who were skeptic against, I guess, antidepressants were...
	Oh, sure. There is Anatomy of an Epidemic.
	Yep.
	The myth of mental illness.
	And just shoot me an email if you like or post on the message board.
	I've got a couple of others that I've done for research, names of which escape me at the moment.
	I think it's important.
	You have to be a very alert consumer when it comes to this kind of stuff.
	There's a lot of financial incentives and social incentives.
	We talked about how people would rather have the welfare state than show human compassion, no matter how destructive the welfare state is.
	I think the same things people would rather think that there's some chemical imbalance, right, than actually show basic human compassion.
	But, yeah, I think this is some...
	Sorry, some people posted...
	Nathaniel Brandon, of course, I think is a good guy.
	Psychology of self-esteem, I think, is very important.
	But there were other people who had posted some other stuff.
	I don't know if you're in the chat room. And also, you got a lot of love in the chat room.
	Oh, thanks. So...
	Yeah, I hope that those will be helpful.
	But yeah, I think the important thing is to avoid self-blame and look for the external and just and rational causes of the sadness and anger and loneliness and emptiness that you may be feeling.
	The illness, or the deficiency, you know, when you're young, the first place to look for the deficiency is in society, not in yourself.
	Why? Because you have been guided, educated, instructed, and nurtured, or not nurtured, by society.
	Right? I mean, if you have...
	Let's take an extreme example.
	If I have a cow that's in my paddock, right, and it never goes out, and I'm the only one around for miles, and my cow is starving, who's responsible?
	Yeah, I'm sorry, what did you say? Sorry, which part did you miss?
	Something about a cow. Okay.
	I'm sorry. So, if I'm a farmer, and I live in the middle of nowhere, no one else is around for miles, and I've got a cow in a little field behind my house, and my cow is starving, who's responsible?
	The farmer. Right.
	So, who should the cow blame?
	The farmer. Exactly.
	And you are in an enclosure when you're a child.
	You're in the enclosure of your family.
	You're in the enclosure of school.
	You're in the enclosure of society.
	And so if there's something wrong with you as a child, the first place you look is those in charge of the enclosure.
	Now, that may not be the case when you're 40 or 30, but certainly when you're 20, that's where I would look.
	It's FDR 1927.
	The show is 1927, How to Find a Great Therapist.
	Okay. So, I would not internalize these deficiencies without strong, strong evidence to the contrary, and I think you've got strong evidence to support not internalizing these deficiencies.
	The deficiency, the sickness, the absence, the coldness, the depression, the alienation, these may entirely, plausibly be deficiencies in your society that you are feeling.
	And if your society can get you to blame yourself, then your society can stay off the hook.
	You understand? If the people who should have given you love in the past or present can get you to blame yourself for your deficiency, then they are not responsible.
	There's something wrong with you, and they're off the hook.
	And society will do a hell of a lot to blame the victim, the unjust victim, so that society doesn't have to change.
	What's wrong? With the kids in school, is it anything to do with the system that's been set up with the adults, with the appalling quality of the miseducation they're receiving?
	No! Is it anything to do with bad parenting?
	No! Is it anything to do with failed social policies that have resulted in poverty and single parent families which are incredibly unstable and damaging particularly for boys?
	No! We are not to blame the victim, the child must internalize this.
	You are bad. You have a chemical imbalance.
	You have a problem. You have a disorder.
	You need to be fixed.
	Nothing wrong with society.
	You need to be fixed. And yet you go to any, you get to go to almost any mental health professional and you say to that mental health professional, what is the definition of mental health?
	What are they going to say? Uh, That which allows you to function in your society?
	Bullshit. Bullshit.
	Hitler was functioning very well in his society.
	In fact, he got to the very top of his society.
	Would we call him mentally healthy?
	No. Stalin ran Russia.
	Was he mentally healthy?
	No. So it is not functioning well within your society or having success within your society.
	Is it called being happy?
	Well, what a ridiculous standard for mental health that would be, being happy, my ass.
	It's like saying to somebody who's 400 pounds, they go to a dietician, come away with a diet that cuts 4,000 calories from their day, and saying, well, the nutrition is doing this because he wants you to be happy.
	No, the nutrition is doing this because he wants you to lose weight, and he knows that losing weight is going to make you very unhappy.
	Happiness is a standard for mental health, good lord.
	You know, maybe in the long run, but I think we all know, and a lot of the conversations today have been about this, that when you start down the road of truth, it is not happiness that it produces.
	It is quite a lot of unhappiness and stress and difficulty.
	So, yeah, go to mental health professionals and say, oh, you want to make me well.
	Tell me, what is wellness?
	What is wellness? What is mental health?
	And I think almost every answer that they give you will be about as easy to disprove as two and two make five.
	So, yeah, I think it's important to be a skeptical consumer.
	Okay. So, I hope that I didn't yammer on too much, and I hope that this was of some...
	No, not at all.
	...to you, and I really appreciate you calling in.
	Yeah, I appreciate you taking the time.
	It was great chatting with you.
	All right. Well, my pleasure.
	And thank you, everyone, of course, so much, as always.
	It is a challenging January.
	Of course, everybody is broke from Christmas.
	But if you are one of these sensible, non-materialistic types who saved a few shekels from Christmas, Or got a few shekels from Christmas if you felt like donating.
	It is always more than appreciated.
	It's cold up here and we do like the firewood.
	So you can go to freedomainradio.com forward slash donate.
	I really appreciate your support and appreciate massively all of the listeners.
	It is a high point of my week to have these great conversations with y'all.
	Have yourselves a wonderful week and I will talk to you again before you know it.

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