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Dec. 30, 2011 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

27:13

2065 Philosophical Parenting - A Listener Conversation

How to get your children to go to bed without fighting, how to resolve toddler conflicts, and how to enjoy being a parent to the max!

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	Actually, just talking about parenting in general is probably the thing that would help me the most.
	As I posted with the original question that I put on the board, there's a lot that we can say about the principles involved.
	But the practices are themselves very challenging.
	And I've heard good things from third parties who've had an opportunity to see you on Liberty Cruise or whatever interacting with Izzy.
	And I'm just curious how you deal with some of these issues.
	Like I saw the podcast that you did on the fact when she's in the phase of saying no to everything.
	I found a really interesting experience there is that frequently we'll ask Meta to do something And she'll say no, and then 30 seconds later, she'll do it anyway.
	Yes. Right? Yep, no, I've had that too.
	I've had that too. And she'll flip back and forth between what she likes and, you know, I do want this.
	Oh, I don't want that. I do want that.
	I don't want that, right? Well, yeah, there's lots of that indecision when it comes to things like food.
	Right, right. Yeah, like she absolutely doesn't, and then she'll try and all that.
	And it's even like she'll, even when I know she'll absolutely love to eat something.
	It's crazy. I mean, it's crazy.
	So she's like, I know she's really going to want to eat this.
	And then she'll say, I don't even want to try it.
	And even if it's like some junky stuff like candy or whatever, I'm like, no, I really want to get it.
	It's like, no way. Why am I forcing my child to eat candy again?
	Why would I be interested in that?
	That doesn't make any sense, right? Good for her.
	And she's developing this very interesting sort of restraint, right?
	So we sort of explain to her what food does to her digestive systems and so on and the other end.
	And so, yeah, she'll now say, I will have two chips, but not more because I don't want to get sick.
	Or whatever, right? And so, yeah, she's developing this.
	And that's sort of what we want, right?
	Is to have that kind of restraint that I'm still looking to achieve.
	But it's good to see in a three-year-old.
	So, getting back to some of the specifics of peaceful parenting.
	One thing that...
	And I suspect this isn't a problem that you've had, given the nature of your relationship with your wife.
	But... Since I didn't discover your Free Domain Radio and your podcast until well after my daughter was born, I guess the first time I stumbled across any of your material was like three months ago.
	Obviously, she's over two and a half.
	And so you've already fallen into these practices as a parent.
	You feel awkward about them, yelling at your kids, but you think it's necessary because it's what you're used to.
	And so this breath of fresh air of saying, you know what, that's really not the right way to do it.
	And if you want to raise good, healthy children, then you have to stay away from it.
	And to give you, I think, a reasonable out from that, it's not something that's in society.
	It's not something that's portrayed in art.
	It's not something that's in any sort of recognizable cultural meme.
	The idea that you need to be more restrained and more mature with your children than anyone else in your life because they're not there by choice.
	That's something that is just not out there.
	I mean, yeah, obviously you don't beat them up with belts and stuff.
	At least I guess most people hopefully understand that that's no good.
	But as far as...
	And there's lots of stuff out there that says, well, kids can be exasperating and parents lose their tempers and it happens and so on, right?
	Like there's a lot of excuses out there for this kind of stuff.
	And there isn't that thing where you understand that this is wrong and it's more wrong than yelling at your wife.
	It's more wrong—I mean, everybody gets you don't yell at waiters, right?
	I mean, anybody who yells at a waiter in a restaurant is looked at as kind of a jerk, right?
	Right. And yet—so that's sort of understood, and that's why you don't see a lot of people yelling at waiters.
	And it's like, but what the hell does a waiter have to do with your life relative to your own flight?
	But it's just, it's not out there.
	It's not common coinage in our culture that this is not the way to go.
	So, I mean, I can completely understand what you're coming from.
	The transition to get there, you can sort of It's not just habit breaking.
	It's having to form new approaches and the amount of patience and creativity demanded is just really incredible.
	It's at times overwhelming.
	One of the things that we struggle with sometimes is bedtime because I think you said before it's just that's all about Yeah, because you were saying that it's tough to get them to bed at night and it's tough to get them going in the morning, right?
	Well, actually, we don't have much of a problem in the morning insofar as she just, like my daughter, typically sleeps fairly late.
	Which is great because then, you know, there's plenty of time for adults to wake up in the house before their immediate requirement upon opening their eyes is to start fulfilling the needs of the child.
	For me, that works out really well because I wake up slow.
	And it's really nice to be able to get out of bed and catch up on email and have some coffee.
	What I think you mean to say is that you have a Vista boot time.
	That's the way that we just so we speak in the same language.
	Yeah, one of those old game consoles that you just have to turn on and then go have a meal and come back and start playing again.
	So that works out fairly well, but of course at night it can be a much bigger challenge because you try to pick the right motivations to get her even first into the bedroom and then into bed and then with her eyes closed.
	And all the while trying to do this in a gentle and non-confrontational fashion rather than just the go to bed now because I said so.
	Well, I can share you a few thoughts because, I mean, everyone wrestles with this who's a parent, right?
	So, I mean, I understand that.
	The first thing to recognize is it's a compliment that she doesn't want to go to bed.
	I mean, I think that's the very – because we think, oh my god, that's inconvenient, right?
	But it's a compliment because it means she'd rather be playing with you.
	She'd rather be spending time with you than going to bed.
	No, seriously. I agree.
	I have never thought about it that way, and I'm looking forward to sharing that with my wife tonight.
	Yeah, no, and it's a great compliment.
	It's like, you know, you don't want to be on the first date with the woman who's constantly checking her watch, and then the fake phone call comes with her friend and says her aunt is sick, and then she bolts out of there.
	You want the first date to be like, oh, no, it's like, you know, 11.30 or 1 in the morning, and I still want to keep chatting, right?
	So basically, she's saying, I really, really, really love your company.
	And that's the first thing I think to understand, just so you don't focus so much on how inconvenient it is for you and also for her if she doesn't get enough sleep.
	But what a compliment it is.
	So I just wanted to mention that.
	It's a great place to start.
	You're trying to deal with the fact that your child loves spending time with you.
	And Lord knows we should all have problems that tough, right?
	Right.
	So I just wanted to point that out.
	The second thing is, of course, she's not at an age where time means much to her, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	But I found it useful to start explaining time as early as possible.
	And you know what's weird? It's really hard.
	My daughter is coming up with questions that are really hard.
	You know, why is yesterday not coming back?
	Yeah, we had that with holidays.
	I really shouldn't be able to answer this one.
	I can tell you why the sky is blue.
	I can tell you why the airplanes fly.
	Why is tomorrow? Why is yesterday still yesterday?
	You know, it's a tough thing to explain.
	But we've really tried to work on getting Izzy to understand time.
	And of course, there's the obvious stuff.
	It's daytime, it's nighttime, the sun is going down, and so on.
	But I also think that children have an easier time with old-fashioned analog, like hand...
	Hands in minutes and seconds, kind of hours and minutes and seconds.
	So you might want to get a little clock.
	We can get them for like 10 or 15 bucks.
	A little clock where they can see the hands going round and round, right?
	And you spend a little bit of time explaining that.
	And then you also, you know, you need to explain, of course, I'm sure you do, but you need to explain why she needs to go to bed early, right?
	So, I mean, it's like explaining why do we want to eat broccoli and not brownies?
	You need to, you know, here's the digestion and, you know, it makes your poops more owie.
	If you only have candy, it's bad for your teeth.
	The little bugs dance on your teeth and, you know, they can owie your teeth and then you have to go to the dentist and it's not a lot of fun.
	So the explanation to me is key.
	I find the resistance goes down enormously with, and the explanation can take a long time.
	And so you need to say, at least you don't need to say, but what I found useful is, you know, well, If you don't get enough sleep, you'll be cranky.
	And that's no fun for everyone.
	Sleep is really healthy for you.
	It's important for your brain.
	It's important for your body.
	It's what keeps you healthy. Sleep is really, really important.
	It's very important to be rested.
	I know it's more fun to stay up.
	And it's also easy to forget how tired you're going to be tomorrow because in the moment you just want to stay up.
	But, you know, recognize that it's really good for you.
	It's going to be happier for you tomorrow, happier for everyone.
	And also, you know, as I've sort of said recently, it's important, I think, to explain to her that you need time with mommy.
	You know, because we've explained to Izzy, it's like, well, after you go to bed, you know, we still have some cleanup to do, we have some chatting to do, you know, we got to brush your teeth, we got to bathe, all this kind of stuff.
	And, you know, I really want to spend time chatting with your mom.
	I love playing with you, and I love playing with you and mom, but I also want to spend some time, you know, adult time with your mom.
	And that's really, really important to us.
	And I think that's actually healthy for a kid to hear, because if it's all about them, and the parents are like, It's not a triangle.
	It's just a why, so to speak, with all the needs pouring into the child and there's no connection to the top of the why.
	I don't think that they get as secure an understanding of the marriage as they should, right?
	That makes sense. And we have actually that particular point we have done.
	We need you to go to bed because we can't go to bed until you go to bed and mommy and daddy are really tired.
	Sometimes it's just one or the other of us.
	Right. But that's still not your need for each other, which I assume is obviously important because Lord knows that the intimacy in a marriage can drain away like sand in an hourglass.
	That's what the kids need, right?
	Right. Well, yeah, so we've also done that.
	I think I haven't emphasized that enough, and I certainly will take that back and try to apply it.
	But it has come up, and we have said that.
	You know, this is mommy and daddy time, and we need to spend time together just like we spend time with you.
	And we have started that conversation, and I think I'll redouble it.
	And not need, right? Because you have to be ruthlessly honest with your kids, right?
	And trying to get the difference between need and want is really important at the same time.
	You don't need to.
	You could go without. You need to live, right?
	I need food and water. I want to, right?
	Because she says she needs everything, right?
	No, no, no. The difference between need and want so that we can help.
	Needs we don't negotiate.
	Wants we do negotiate, right?
	We don't negotiate the need of water.
	Well, let's see if you want water or not.
	You get water, right? You get food and water.
	All of that. But getting her to understand.
	So you've got to be really clear, I think, about the difference between needs and wants because needs are non-negotiable and wants are.
	And that really helps, I think, frame that.
	So is this a need or is this a want?
	And, you know, then you can negotiate.
	Does that? That's a good point.
	I'll make sure we apply that as well.
	So once you get the clock, then, I don't know, what's her ideal bedtime?
	4 p.m. My wife and I have not reached consensus on this quite yet.
	The ideal bedtime is based on her ideal wake time, and her ideal wake time is around 8.30.
	I'm sorry, what's her wake time?
	8.30. Oh, a wake time.
	Sorry, I said bedtime. Okay, so you want to get out of bed by 8.30?
	Well, no, we'd like her to be up by 8.30, so then it's just simply a question of how much sleep do we want to get from there?
	Well, let's just say 9.30 or whatever.
	Yeah. Let's just say 10 o'clock is easy to say, whatever.
	So if you point – you get her to understand that the time slide is called an hour, right?
	So obviously you explained to her how the clock works, and this measure is time, and then she'll ask you what time is, and you'll be like, I don't know, it's a magazine, like life.
	Yeah. So you come up with that.
	But you have to keep pointing out, look, you see, it's five o'clock.
	Oh, look, it's six o'clock. And if you've got one that chimes and has a pendulum, I mean, my daughter loves pendulums.
	So, you know, it's so much the better, right?
	If there's one that winds up, you know, again, that's something that they can do.
	So then they get a sense of time, right?
	And then say, okay, so here, you know, it's getting to be this.
	And she can see, right, the hand moving and so on, right?
	And so you can sort of put two little pictures up, right?
	So when the clock says this, here's when we're going to start getting ready.
	I'm going to tidy up your toys, so we're going to put things away, blah, blah, blah, right?
	And so is it there yet?
	No. It sort of becomes a game when it matches.
	And then that's when she does the tidy up.
	And for us, it's like 15 minutes of tidy up and, you know, have milk or whatever.
	And at this time, we go upstairs.
	I'm going to brush your teeth and...
	Wash your face, and pajamas, and story time, and nanny, whatever, right?
	And that gives her a sense of predictability and structure, because remember, kids live so much in the now that everything is a surprise.
	Right? So, I mean, oh my god, is it bedtime again?
	We did that already. No, no, no.
	Getting that, everything is a surprise.
	And so, it's like, you know, when you bring a plane in for landing, you're adjusting, you're, you know, you don't just sort of, you know, just turn the engines off and go splat.
	And so, that preparation and that getting ready and that sort of soft landing to bedtime rather than the child just sort of feels like a skyhook just rips them out of their playpen and jumps them into bed or whatever, right?
	Right? It takes them out of their play area.
	And so if there's that sort of gentle preparation and so on, then we have found that to be helpful.
	We actually have tried alarms as well, like on the iPad, that the alarms go off.
	Oh, that's the first alarm. What does that mean?
	Time to tidy up toys. And that's the sort of structure and so on.
	She didn't actually like the alarms too much.
	She wanted to run away from them all the time, so we stopped that.
	But that's a way that did work for a while.
	And that gives her a sense of, you know, it's getting closer.
	And when things get closer to children slowly, it feels inevitable.
	If that makes any sense. When stuff surprises them, they immediately want to dig their heels in.
	But if it's a slow creeping up progression, it's almost irresistible, if that makes any sense?
	Yes. Yes, it does.
	It makes complete sense. And you can stick on the clock.
	If you stick it on and says, you know, clean up time and then, you know, upstairs time, then it's like, it almost becomes like the clock telling her to go to bed.
	Hey, don't blame me.
	This is just what the picture says.
	And that's really helpful because she's not going to argue with the clock if that makes any sense.
	And that completely makes sense.
	You know, hey, it's out of my hands.
	It's not just a good idea.
	It's the clock law.
	Yeah. I wish there was a court of appeal, but there's no second clock you can appeal to.
	I'm so sorry. That's, you know, and you can kind of make it a joke, whatever.
	Knowing my daughter, she would find a clock somewhere in the house that had the batteries out.
	Yeah, yeah. Or she'll find a clock lawyer.
	She'll draw a clock lawyer in to take up her case or whatever.
	So that, it becomes more impersonal.
	And the second thing, of course, is, you know, negotiate or whatever, right, as you know, right?
	So you don't just impose the time on her, but you sort of say, here's how much sleep you need.
	If you get up at 8.30, here's where it goes back to.
	And, you know, obviously, you're in the middle of something.
	A little bit of flexibility is okay.
	But I think, first of all, I find the rules got to be really clear and then you can negotiate sort of down the road once she's used to them.
	The second thing that I have found to be very helpful is to give her a sense of humor about herself.
	So to get her to understand that she says no a lot is really important.
	And you can sort of point it out in a sort of gentle, fun way.
	Oh, look, you're saying no again.
	What a shock. Oh, my goodness.
	How many no's? We actually kept a no chart on the fridge for a little while.
	So we put a little line on there every time she said no, and then she would stop saying no because she was seeing it fill up pretty quickly.
	Get her to get a sense. You can tell her a story about, you know, here's my daughter.
	She loves going to bed at night.
	There's nothing she likes more than broccoli.
	And boy, if she can get her teeth brushed, she's about the happiest girl in the whole world.
	No! No! So she can get a sense that you know that she doesn't like to do it.
	And it's a little bit more funny than it is frustrating.
	Right. And so, are you saying no again?
	And then my daughter gets seized up because she can't say no to that again?
	So if you can sort of get her to understand that it's a little bit funny, and it's a compliment.
	Say, listen, I'm really happy that you want to play with me.
	I feel very... It makes me so happy that you want to play with me.
	You want to keep playing with me. I mean, that's a wonderful thing to hear.
	I'm very happy about that.
	I sort of explained that. And the other thing that I would say is that last annoying bit of empty-headed lecturing, but...
	The last thing that I would say is don't ever impose rules in the moment.
	And you know this, right? But I just wanted to mention in case this ever becomes a podcast.
	But to say, you have to set this stuff up in the morning.
	Like, hey! And reference that it's going to be a change.
	We're going to try this new way that we're going to have a happier time Because you don't like going to bed, do you?
	No, I don't like going to bed. And we understand that and we'd love to play with you all night the same way that we'd all love to eat cupcakes and get as big as a house, but we can't do that.
	We've got to be responsible, blah, blah.
	So we're going to try and find a new way.
	And here's what we'd like to do.
	Tell us what you think and all that sort of, you know, would you like it this way or would you like it that way?
	We'd like to get a clock. Would you like a clock with numbers?
	Or do you want a clock? You can take her out and say which clock do you want to choose for bedtime and whatever, that kind of stuff.
	And then what stickers do you want to sort of clean up time and put those on the clock and really sort of get her involved in the process so that she knows it's coming.
	And you've got to be an annoying reminder guy.
	All day. To say, hey, remember, we're doing this new thing at nighttime tonight.
	And again, there's that sense of inevitability that comes about with that kind of preparation that we have found has taken most, if not all, of the conflict out from getting to bed.
	But because she's still napping, so getting to bed in the afternoon and getting to bed at night.
	Yeah, we found that, you know, unless we take car drives, Meta's not really napping during the day.
	Obviously her brother is, which is the other half of the thing that we're trying to figure out the best approaches for.
	Because it's, of course, one thing to have an almost three-year-old in the house and I have to be gentle with her.
	I can't imagine. I'm not going to try and give you any advice on that.
	I'll just share with you and maybe you might have a flash of inspiration or something.
	We haven't had a problem, at least as far as I can tell, With resentment or jealousy yet of, you know, how come this screaming kid takes priority over what we were doing just now?
	That seems to have been pretty well accepted and understood, from what I can tell.
	But to get her to understand that certain actions that might be fun when we do them with her or when she does them with us can be potentially harmful to him because he's so fragile.
	And so, like the other day, he was laying on the bed and she went and got a box of toys and brought it over next to him.
	And, you know, that's great.
	She wants to play with her brother and they're going to share the toys.
	And they do for a little while.
	And then at some point she picks up a toy and drops it on top of him.
	Which is fine when it's a small stuffed animal or whatever.
	There's not really a chance of harm.
	But when it's like blocks, then you go, well, okay.
	Now we have to do something about that because I know it was an accident, but you could hurt him.
	One time there was one thing that she did.
	He has one of those little jumper things.
	It's like spring-loaded so that he can sort of stand up straight and jump up and down.
	And she was walking over to it and shaking it like side to side.
	And obviously he was bouncing around.
	And so I was trying to explain to her that that wasn't good, that that was going to hurt him.
	And she was very insistent.
	No, he likes it. The baby likes it.
	No, honey, he doesn't.
	I'm going to show you what that feels like.
	Just so you can understand that it would be painful for him.
	And I did it like twice and she was like, whoa, that was really unpleasant.
	I'm like, yeah, that's my, you only know it through experience.
	That doesn't actually feel good.
	He's not enjoying that. And she stopped right away.
	But then I felt really guilty because I'm like, did I just abuse my child?
	I'm not really sure if that was the right thing to do for her to understand that that wouldn't feel good.
	I mean, I can make a suggestion because we don't have that so much.
	Obviously, we don't have a second sibling.
	But what we do have, of course, is our daughter is getting bigger and stronger.
	And so the stuff that she could do, like jumping on me when she was smaller, she can't do now.
	At least not without me being braced under a garbage can lid shaking like that.
	A girl guide in a high breeze.
	But so we have to sort of explain to her she's getting bigger, she's getting stronger, and so the stuff we can't do.
	You know how you can do all these cool things?
	This means you can't do some of the other things, blah, blah, blah, right?
	But what you could do is I try as much as I can to correct her not by example but by principle because I really wanted to sort of understand the principles, right?
	So, what you could do is, she's putting forward a principle, and the principle is, because again, children in my experience are UPB machines, so this works really well for me, I think it worked for you.
	The principle is that even though her brother is complaining, she thinks that he's enjoying it, right?
	Even though he's not, right?
	Right. So, you can say to her, but wait a second, so am I then allowed to tell you that you like something even when you don't?
	What's she going to say to that?
	Right. Right, so you don't like broccoli.
	Can I tell you, what will you say if I say you like broccoli?
	You'll say no, right? And who's right?
	Well, I'm right, says the kid, right?
	Right, so I can't tell you that you like something that you don't like, right?
	And in the same way, you can't say whether...
	Your brother likes that or not.
	Only he can say that.
	And he was not laughing.
	I don't know the details, but something like that.
	So that you can get a principle that she cannot say whether somebody else likes something or not.
	Because it's up to the other person to say that.
	She can listen, but she can't say that.
	And I think that to me is more like a concept lesson rather than an instance example.
	Yeah, I understand.
	I agree. I'll give you, this is not directly related, but I'll give you an example of something that I had the other day where I was, you know, Isabella was delaying going to the grocery store and I was like, oh, we got to go, we got to go.
	And she wanted to delay.
	And I said, okay, well, we'll delay half an hour.
	We'll go, right? And then I said, but then we have to go in a hurry.
	And so, anyway, we were going and she was dawdling a little bit, but not too bad.
	And then she lifted up, just as I was putting her shoes on, she lifted up.
	A little basket and she saw her coat in there for a wash and she got upset because she said, the coat doesn't want to be washed.
	The coat wants to be dirty.
	And... She's been correcting me on a whole bunch of things like when I anthropomorphize something that is no longer anthropomorphized for her, she will very clearly tell me, you know, that's just a ball daddy.
	He doesn't have feelings.
	That's just a ball daddy.
	He doesn't have hands. You know, whatever, right?
	Is the ball happy to be balanced?
	It's just a ball daddy. So I know that.
	But I didn't want to do that right away because, again, it's always a tough line between reality and imagination.
	Right. But I did say, well, why doesn't he want to be washed?
	And she says, he doesn't like the washing machine.
	Well, why doesn't he like the washing machine?
	Because it goes round and round and it's loud, right?
	And I said, so he doesn't like it because it goes round and round and it's loud.
	She said, yes. And I said, well, but you like the merry-go-round, right?
	She paused because she's like, uh-oh, I'm being trapped!
	LAUGHTER It's time to pretend I'm six months old again, right?
	Because we had just like a week or two before Gone to America Round, and it was very loud there.
	But she really liked it.
	And I said, so that goes round and round, and it's very loud.
	So maybe he doesn't mind it.
	How do you know, right?
	He told me. But she said it in a way that she just knew she wasn't going to get away with that, right?
	And I said, well, I don't think he did, because he's just a coat.
	And I said, you know, you feel sad about something, and maybe you're scared of something, but I don't think it's true that the coat is scared of something, because the coat is just a coat.
	And it doesn't really matter what, but we ended up talking about how she was feeling.
	Right. You know, basically the code is getting too small for her and she's, you know, kind of nostalgic and it was really to do with that than anything else.
	But sort of getting her to understand the principle that if she says something like, well, it's loud and it goes round and round and therefore it doesn't like it, that I can break that principle by providing examples from her own life which gets us off that and onto something else that's more productive.
	So again, just try and work with the principles of instruction rather than, well, see, you don't like it when I, because you don't like it when I do this doesn't actually help her the next time with something different, if that makes any sense.
	But if she gets that she can't say what anyone else is enjoying, but has to rather pay attention to whether they are in fact enjoying it or not, I think that helps in all circumstances, if that makes sense.
	Yes, it absolutely does.
	I like this strategy very much.
	Yeah, concepts over instances is my mantra as a parent.
	Anything that I can teach at a conceptual level or universal level, I think A is good for her philosophical brain and B is something that she can reference hopefully for the rest of her life.
	Right. Well, it should accelerate her learning.
	Absolutely. Yes, and I think it has because when I teach her a concept, it's very, very rare that she then will later break that concept.
	Whereas if I teach her instances, it doesn't translate to the next thing that's slightly different.

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