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Feb. 27, 2011 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
39:57
1861 Love Dating Sex Beauty - A Listener Conversation
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Time Text
Hello. Can you hear me?
I sure can. I sure can.
So what's up? Well, this was something that I wanted to ask you when we were up there for the weekend, but we didn't have time.
And so actually, it was something I started to ask you like two years ago in Bill's apartment.
And it was just like a random question I asked.
And I don't think we ever talked about it more.
And then it's something that keeps coming up.
So I don't know where to start explaining it.
Well, you have had two years to prepare, so just kidding.
Think about it. Okay.
I have a lot of ambivalence around romantic relationships, and when I'm actually in them and even in the idea of them, I feel like certainty is a really impossible thing for me to get.
A certainty about what?
Certainty, well more on the positive side that like, I would want this.
If it worked out, I would want to be in this relationship.
Okay, yeah, so certainty about longevity?
Yes. Okay.
And then in the past, like when I've gone back over relationships from college or high school, I've noticed that I've done like some self-sabotage things in order to get certainty that it wouldn't work out.
But yeah, the certainty about longevity or like a long-term commitment feels, it feels impossible.
I mean, I don't think it is, but it feels impossible to me.
Right, right. And do you think it's an intellectual issue or do you think it's an emotional issue or mixed?
I think it's an emotional issue because I have dated and been romantically involved with people who are into self-knowledge and intellectually I can think about it and be like wow if you know if this woman was interested in doing therapy and really going for this that would be like perfect for me and we have the same type of Other preferences that get along.
Intellectually, I can see it and it seems very plausible, but then I just have an emotional block to feeling it.
Actually, it just seems plausible.
There should be a card, you know, hi, I find you very plausible.
Well, I even think about...
Like, bad relationships in high school where the people in them would still, like, feel emotional certainty that, like, they love this person and they wanted to be with them forever.
And even though they were wrong, but I've never had that even, you know, pre-self-knowledge or pre-philosophy have had that feeling in a relationship like, wow, I love this girl, we're going to be together forever, blah, blah, blah.
Well, but, you know, love, it's one of those really dangerous words, right?
It's just something people say.
Right. And I'm always, you know, I'm very skeptical about the word love.
You know, people say, I love my country.
I mean, good heavens. It's a lot of rock to fit into your pants.
Anyway, so be careful of the word love because it is something that people say.
You know, people, they can be the worst relationships.
They get beaten up and...
It's just something that people say.
And so, yeah, be very cautious.
I'm sure you are, but be very cautious about people's protestations of love, particularly in the face of relationships that are obviously problematic.
For sure. But I still get a sense that they feel some sort of certainty about it.
Well, but the certainty, right?
You can have a whole lot of certainty if you lack self-knowledge, right?
Yeah, I guess that's true.
I mean, look at some grand wizard in the KKK. Is he certain the blacks are inferior?
He certainly is, right?
Yeah, that's true.
I mean, there's two kinds of certainty, right?
There's the kind of certainty that you get through...
Through self-knowledge and through the breakdown of the illusions that we're all fed as kids, right?
I mean, which is a very difficult and, you know, taking the shell off the tortoise and getting it a sunburner kind of experience.
So when you win it, you win it, right?
Right. But then there's the other kind of certainty, which is just getting behind your prejudices and building a big suit of armor for them, right?
Keeping them away from contrary information and confirmation bias, you know, all that kind of stuff.
And so, the certainty, again, is one of these things that is tricky.
Right, right. And I understand that, I just, yeah.
Yeah, so people who say, well, I'm certain about this relationship, may, are very likely not doing it for philosophical reasons, sort of my point.
Right, right. And how many relationships have you been in?
I mean, all the way back to, like, high school.
Uh-huh. Just roughly.
Maybe five or six that lasted, you know, more than a few weeks, I guess.
And including the ones that lasted a few weeks?
Hmm? Including the ones that lasted a few weeks?
No, no, I mean...
No, but if you include those.
A few weeks, I don't know, another four or five maybe, just kind of casual dating things.
Right, okay, okay.
And did you date in China?
Yes, I dated casually for the first six or seven months, which is my therapist recommended that I do that because I never actually...
I had very little experience with that.
So I did that for the first couple months and then I met a girl who was pretty cool and was into this type of stuff.
She was very into psychology and I talked to her a lot about philosophy.
We are, but we're not dating right now.
Her name was Kelly, but we decided to take a break because she has a lot of family stuff that she wants to work through and process and didn't think that we could juggle a romantic relationship at the same time.
And because while I was dating her, a lot of this stuff came back up around certainty and crushing ambivalence.
Crushing ambivalence, alright.
And... Out of a thousand women who you find attractive, who is sort of roughly in your age group and all educational and blah, blah, blah, who would have some degree of on-the-paper compatibility?
Right. Out of a thousand, how many would you say would be potential long-term partners or permanent partners, I guess?
Well, the first thing I think of is whether or not they'd have the potential for self-knowledge and philosophy.
So, I don't know, one or two maybe?
Out of a thousand? Maybe more.
Ten? Just random guesswork.
But low, right?
Yeah, I'm thinking like 1%, 2% maybe?
Right. Well, I mean, I would certainly agree with you that the percentage is low.
Yeah. So I think that's the first thing to understand, that your concern about longevity is grounded in at least instinctual statistics, if I may use the term.
Right. Yeah.
I just listened to your call with Nash, actually, about that, and it helped a little knowing that, you know, I have reasons to be so uncertain, but...
Still, even when I imagine being with someone who is like that, I can't imagine being certain.
Well, but you're looking upon certainty as something that's in you, right?
Yeah, yes.
But that's not where certainty comes from in a relationship, right?
Certainty is like forgiveness or it's like love, right?
I mean, this is something that is pulled out of you by somebody else, right?
This is something that is up to the other person to evoke permanence in you.
I get that.
But there's still a part of me that feels like it's something like I will meet the right, a fear that I will meet someone who would do that, but then I have some block that prevents it from happening.
And then, like, it's my fault that it doesn't happen.
Oh, right. And what's the null hypothesis for that, Mr.
Scientist? I guess there really isn't one.
There isn't, right? Yeah.
Because then you're saying, you know, basically, what if the room is full of invisible ghosts that I have no way of detecting and blah, blah, blah, right?
Yeah. Right?
What if there is a god, but he shows himself to no one in no way, shape, or form, and blah, blah.
Right? So, you have the capacity for a permanent attachment in that you seem to be pretty permanently attached to philosophy, right?
Yes. And you have friendships that have lasted more than 12 minutes.
So you have that, right?
For sure, yeah. So it's not like you have the attention span of a rhesus monkey on ecstasy, right?
Yeah. I mean, maybe you do, but you also do have the capacity for permanence.
So it's not something that you can't do at all.
But I think the important thing is that I never wanted particularly to settle down and get married.
Until I met Christina, right?
Okay. And I never really wanted to have kids until I met Christina.
Okay. And now people would say, well, you just...
You have an inability to commit.
And it's like, no, I just haven't met somebody I want to commit to.
Those are two different things.
And of course, there's a lot of mythology...
In the culture as a whole, about the degree to which stuff is evoked in someone versus the degree to which something is willed in someone, right?
So we all know the one about forgiveness, right?
You're supposed to will forgiveness rather than the other person having to earn it.
Yes. Yep. Right?
Or charity. Like, people are owed charity.
They don't have to deserve it.
Right. Or love or...
Yeah, or love or any of these things, right?
Yeah. And...
It comes right back down to governments.
Governments are owed allegiance because of this mystery social contract.
They don't actually have to earn it through competition in the market with others.
When you get into this question, whenever you are looking at a relationship for problems, it's not the only place, of course, but the first place to look is the other person.
All right, there's...
Right, so, I mean, sorry, let me give you some practical stuff, right?
So, I mean, it's important to have a list of what it is that you want in a romantic partner.
And, you know, basic checklists, things like, you know, obviously intelligence and empathy and curiosity and sensitivity and whatever, right?
Right. I mean, you can sort of come up with the list.
There's some, I think, that should be on everyone's list, but there's some stuff that's more personal.
And... Then, you know, if you meet someone and that person fulfills a reasonable amount of what's on your list, then yay!
You know, that's good. Now, if you find yourself unable to commit, even if you can't find an argument against it, then you have evidence for a block, right?
Right. But my concern is that if you're sort of trying to figure out where the ship is going by rummaging around in the hold...
Yeah.
Then you're not going to achieve any certainty, right?
So if you have uncertainties about a relationship and the first place you look is not in the objective behavior of the other person, but any potential subjective blocks that you may or may not have that can't be seen by any light of man or God, then I think there is a kind of spiral of that that doesn't have an escape route.
Okay. I mean, it is what it feels like.
But then when I look at the other person, I have a critical voice that's like, Oh, you know, it's not their fault that you can't have a healthy romantic relationship.
Stop trying to blame it on other people.
And... Well, I mean, yeah, of course.
I mean, that's not a very healthy voice because the first word that's coming up is blame.
And there's a lot of insinuation and insult in that, right?
In other words, looking for somebody else's actions as to the first cause of your emotions is...
It's very critical of you, right?
Yeah, right. And I think that's not reasonable.
Because, of course, there's no way to win that argument.
Because if you admit, okay, well, it's all to do with me and nothing to do with the other person, then the next voice comes along and says, oh, so what you're saying is the other person's behavior has no effect on your emotions.
So it's like you don't even see them, right?
Then why are you dating people that it's all about you with and has nothing to do with them?
Right, right.
So that's a no-win argument, right?
Yeah, yeah. So that's just scar tissue, right?
I don't mean just like it's easy to just make go away, but that is kind of like scar tissue.
And that's not going to get you anywhere, right?
So I think you first of all have to go with the basic reality.
Either the other person is having an effect on how you feel, in which case look there.
Okay. Or the other person is not having an effect on how you feel, in which case, yeah, I mean, why be in the relationship, right?
Right, right.
But to me, I sort of get this image of you sitting on a park bench eating a sandwich, right?
And you feel this very sharp stabbing pain on your thigh.
Well, the first thing you think of is a bee stung me, right?
Or a wasp, right?
Right. Because a strong sensation is coming from an outside source, right?
Right. And instead I'm saying, what's wrong with my thigh?
Yeah, I must have a block to feeling comfortable in this spot on my thigh.
Now, of course, if you feel this pain, you look down and there is no wasp or sting, then sure, yeah, then you look for other experts.
But the first thing you look for is an external influence, right?
Right, right. Because it's a very damning thing to say to yourself, my emotional state is not being driven by anything external.
In the same way, it's much worse for you medically if you get a sharp stabbing pain and there's no bug, right?
Right. Because then it's something internal or something neurological, whatever, right?
And so if love is an emotion that is evoked in us through the virtuous behavior of others, then if you feel a lack of love, which is a sort of weird way to put it, but if you feel a lack of love, then the first place to look is the behavior of the other person.
Okay. And if the behavior of the other person is flawless and above reproach, then you can, of course, with that other person's help, you can look inward and so on, right?
Right. But it's not the logical first place to look.
Now, the good news is this, though, which is that if you are having a relationship with yourself under the guides of having a relationship with another person, right?
In other words, if you have a block...
To genuine love that is truly earned by the virtuous behavior of some woman, right?
If that's the situation, then you don't have to worry about it at all.
Why not? Oh, you're going to kick yourself.
Well, what's she going to do if she is a truly loving, caring, sensitive and virtuous woman?
Try and help me.
Or leave me and then never speak to me again.
Go on. Well, then she's going to see that I am not really having a relationship with her and she's going to want to find someone who is willing to have an external relationship with her.
Boy, that's a kind of black and white, in or out, no gradations kind of answer, right?
Yeah. Which is good, because it means that we're in a primitive place where it's win-lose, right?
Right. Yeah, it feels...
Because that's not going to show up.
She's not going to sit there for two years and then go, that's it, you don't feel anything for me, because that would be kind of weird, right?
Right. Right, so she's going to be in a relationship with you, and the relationship, the feelings are going to grow, right?
There's no love on the first day, but there should be at some point.
And at some point, she's going to feel or understand or notice or get that...
There's something that is distant in you, that is not present in you, that is withheld, right?
Right. And she's not going to sit there and say, that's it, it's over.
She's going to say, you know, I'm sort of experiencing some anxiety or some concern or something, I don't know what it is.
It happened at this particular, you know, if she's into RTR, if she's not into some other one, it doesn't matter as long as she's honest, right?
Right. You know, that there's some, you know, that there's, I feel like your heart is closed to me in some way.
And it didn't feel so much at the beginning.
Maybe it was a little bit there, but it's really been growing since this point.
And, you know, tell me, you know, what's going on for you?
What's, you know, am I completely crazy?
Or is it something that you think may be the case?
Or do you think that There's any kind of imbalance in our level of attachment.
You know what I mean, right? However, she's going to talk about it.
But the great thing about being in a relationship with a good person, my friend, is you don't have to self-monitor to that degree.
Yeah. Right?
I'm nodding, yes. You can trust the other person.
I mean the whole point of having a coach is so you don't have to obsessively watch everything you're doing and trying to figure out the best way with no advanced knowledge, right?
Right. And there's things that others can see in us that we can't see in ourselves.
And that's part of the trust of being in a relationship like that.
It's not up to you to sort that part out.
You love as best as you can, but if you're constantly monitoring yourself, And worrying that some part of your heart has caved in or burnt up or been driven to ash, then what's going to happen is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Yeah, and I do that every relationship.
Pretty much right from the beginning, I'm worried about, like, I wonder, you know, if it's going to be a few months and then I'm going to hate this and not be able to feel affection or closeness to this person or...
Right. And, you know, one of the tests, I think, of a relationship would be the degree to which you're comfortable talking about that with someone and that they understand it.
I mean, I remembered early on in our relationship talking with Christina and saying that, you know, I really can see that your heart is wider open than mine.
You know, my heart can be a bit stingy and guarded and, you know, that her heart was much more open than mine and she was further ahead in the relationship and we talked about that.
You know, and I said it doesn't have anything to do with Any deficiency on your part, I mean, you're fantastic.
You know, this is just historical stuff for me.
And I said, I'm working to open my heart and to catch up and to be as available to you as you are to me.
I'm working hard because you deserve that times 100.
Right. I remember reading that.
I think you mentioned it in RTR, and I remember that being very meaningful to me somehow, but I wasn't sure.
And she, as I've mentioned too, right, so when we would get together...
I'd sort of do a day of writing and she'd be at work and we'd get together and maybe we'd have a social engagement in the evening.
And, you know, I'd sort of, you know, hey, you're here, let's go.
And she'd say, no, no, no, let's sit down and talk for 20 minutes and get caught up before we go out barreling into social engagements to make sure that we get connected.
And this was very early on in our relationship.
And, you know, because she knew all about that sort of stuff and she was quite right and quite wise to do that.
You know, trust that the other person, trust that the woman, It's going to keep an eye out on you, and it's going to help you.
Right. And it's going to notice things that may be important to the relationship.
It's not trust in yourself that you need, it's trust in the other.
And if you don't feel that trust in the other, that's a very important thing.
Right. But don't try and worm yourself around that trust in the other by doubting yourself.
Because that's going to cross your signals, right?
Yeah, it feels very hard for me to let go of something like that and just be like, okay, it's up to them how much I feel affection or compassion towards them.
No, no, no. It's not up to them how much you feel affection.
Okay. It's up to them to...
Help you over any resistances that you might have.
Okay. You know, which is not to say that you completely give up on monitoring yourself or anything like that.
Right, right. But at least share the load with somebody who's objective or at least more objective, right?
Because it's very hard to see our own selves, right?
Yeah, it makes sense.
I'm nervous still, but...
Of course. Of course.
Look, this is a perspective that doesn't change the self-management of what you're doing, right?
Because you're kind of keeping your heart close to yourself, right?
Right. Not sort of opening it up and putting it out there, right?
Right. And so you do that.
One of the ways that you do that is through self-monitoring.
Through over-control, I would say, and through self-doubt and self-criticism.
That's a way that we keep our hearts...
It's one of the many ways that we keep our hearts closed from the possibility of love.
Yes, that sounds accurate to what I do.
And I say that, you know, risk is its own reward.
As far as this stuff goes.
You can stand rejection.
You can stand failure in love.
But I would strongly suggest that you open your heart as wide as possible.
And that doesn't have anything to do with actually opening your heart.
That has as much to do with talking about your heart not being open.
That's as much of a communication as your heart being open, right?
Right, right. But yeah, open your heart wide.
And you know, to use a rather fey metaphor, it's the widest petals that gather the most sunlight, right?
Yeah, yeah. Those little scrunched up buds don't get much of anything and don't grow, right?
So yeah, open your heart and...
Throw yourself down the hill, so to speak, and let the other person be there to catch you.
Let the other person be there to notice where there are deficiencies.
I think that's trust, right?
And it's also, you know, at a very functional level, it's a division of labor.
Yeah. The other person can see you more clearly than you can see yourself in many ways.
Right. So it's just a division of labor to let that other person...
And I would want her to trust me with that, too, so...
For sure, for sure, for sure.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
And so, yeah, as far as that division of labor goes, it makes a lot more sense to let the other person give you feedback than to try and circle back on yourself all the time while you're with somebody else, while you're in a relationship with somebody else.
That's really circling the drain, right?
Yeah. And that just has to do with, you know, hey, right now I feel...
You know, really anxious about X, Y, and Z, and I don't know what's going on, but have you noticed anything?
And, you know, obviously invite the other person to give you feedback and be open to it as much as possible, but I really do think, at least for me, I certainly don't have any universal answers in this area, other than honesty, but certainly for me, it was very much around trusting the other person, and that other person has to, of course, work to earn and build on that trust and all that kind of good stuff, but It's not about you and your self-regard.
When you really get enmeshed into a relationship, trusting the other person for objective, helpful feedback, and handing over the reins of self-monitoring to the wisdom of your partner is such a relaxation and a relief that once you do it...
Jesus, take the wheel.
Once you do it... It sounds nice.
I want that. Do you have any thoughts on why...
I feel like I can do that in friendships.
Is it just that it's higher stakes when it comes to romance?
Well, sure. Yeah, I mean, of course.
Sorry, I don't mean of course like it's obvious, but yeah, it is higher stakes.
You don't have kids with your friends.
Right. And you don't have that same kind of proximity and intimacy.
With your friends. You don't have palimony with your friends.
You don't have divorces with your friends.
You don't buy houses together with your friends.
You don't get enmeshed hip by hip with your friends, right?
Right, right. Okay.
And of course, if you have negative examples, as you do, of permanence without happiness, well, that's...
Yeah. That's enough to be concerned, but to recognize that as a concern, but not to project it onto the existing relationship.
Just really rely on the other person to give you feedback.
That is one of the reasons why I've always gone internally with this, because I'm afraid that growing up with my parents' relationship has broken me somehow in romantic relationships.
Right. And I would probably amend that slightly is to say that I have received a template of what doesn't work very well in a relationship.
Right. And that template is unfortunately the one that I'm most familiar with.
And so my anxiety about reproducing it is very healthy.
It'll keep me away from it.
Well, hopefully. I mean, that's definitely the idea behind it, right?
So there is a Simon the Boxer thing that says, right, this kind of vulnerability is not really possible in relationships, and therefore I'm going to self-monitor to make sure I'm vulnerable enough, which means that I'm not going to be vulnerable, which means that I'm going to reproduce that kind of distance.
And I'm mostly likely going to end up with a woman who's content with that kind of self-monitoring on my side because she has it on her side, which means we can't really get connected, right?
Yes, that would be the worst of all my fears of relationships.
Not even to end up single, but to end up like my parents.
Unhappiness, but with permanence.
Right. I mean, I agree.
I agree. And I certainly had my own significant terrors of relationships based on my parents' template, which was about as disastrous as As it could possibly be.
Sorry, it sounds like a competition.
You know what I mean, right?
So I really do understand that.
But to me, you know, it's always just shake my head and get back to first principles.
This is half my day. Half my day is shake my head and get back to first principles.
Because like you, like me, like everyone, particularly those of us who are intelligent and linguistically inclined, you know, we can build these castles of Q&As in our heads that could bring down the Taj Mahal from space, right?
Yes. Of possibilities.
Sometimes, I swear to God, I've been practicing my whole life for a cross-examination that never comes.
Learn to cool those jets.
Learn to relax into just trusting the other person.
The reason that that's so important is that you can't lose by trusting the other person.
I mean, with reasonable indicators of that, right?
Trust some homeless guy to hang onto your wallet, probably.
But if you do trust the other person, either they're going to fulfill that trust, in which case, yay, great, good decision, or they're not.
In which case, it's going to be like our unpleasant bad decision, but you'll know either way, right?
Right. Okay.
Well, I think this is Definitely helpful.
I feel relieved that you don't think it's me, or you think that just by, I don't know, that it's something that I can fix with the right person.
It's something that the other person will fix.
Okay, right. If that makes sense.
So listen to this again, if that's okay.
But yeah, I think that's really, really important.
Don't rely. The division of labor is so essential.
Other people can see us so much better than we can see ourselves.
And learn to trust that in the other person.
And I think that will be enormously helpful.
Okay. But yeah, definitely don't go on that track of like, okay, well, I have to monitor this in myself, because you know what it's like.
I mean, you can talk yourself in and out of every damn thing in the universe, right?
Yeah, yes.
So, yeah, I think that's not a reasonable approach.
It's just not going to work, so the other person can see things much more clearly.
You can have great conversations when you rely on the other person to help you see yourself.
You can just have wonderful conversations and learn an enormous amount about each other.
Yes, and that's what I want.
It's good.
I need to re-listen to this, but I still have, this is just, I guess, the last part of this question that I have for you is, I still have a lot of critical voices that say things like It's because you don't really want a philosophical relationship.
Or you're superficial, so you just want someone who's really attractive.
And that's why you can't find this kind of certainty.
Or you're afraid to trust someone to help you find this kind of certainty.
Because of something else that is a goal in the relationship that's not...
Honest, closeness, RTR, blah, blah, blah.
Make any sense at all?
Yeah, yeah, of course, right?
So basically the charge is hypocrisy.
Yeah. Like you're into these values, but you don't really want them, right?
Yeah, or you want something else more when it comes to romantic relationships.
Sure. And of course you do.
I mean, you're not a philosophical machine.
You are a man.
And men want physical attractiveness, as women do, right?
But there's markers for reproduction that go right down to the biology of a single-celled organism, right?
Yeah. Of course we all want the philosophical hottie.
I mean, of course we do. I mean, to say that we're completely indifferent to physical appearances means that we can have a seance with Ayn Rand and call ourselves having a happy relationship, right?
The philosophical hottie, yeah.
I want the philosophical supermodel, if that's possible.
Absolutely. And that is not shallow at all.
That is entirely natural.
That is entirely healthy. And it would be delusional to imagine that you have zero interest in that which biologically has driven the evolution of life for the last few billion years.
That you have sidestepped and escaped the entire biological demands of carbon-based, DNA-based life forms.
In other words, Through the exercise of your intelligence, you can completely overstep or step around or completely not have present the entire evolutionary mechanism that has given you that intelligence in the first place.
That's deranged, right?
It is. I know that, but I have felt superficial for that before.
Sure. I mean, this is just an old Christian thing, right?
The old Christian thing is you love the soul, not the rotting body, right?
Right, yeah. Yeah, but that's because we don't believe it.
There's no soul, right?
So physicality is not unimportant, right?
So would you love a highly philosophical woman who was 400 pounds?
I would say not, because I don't think a highly philosophical woman, absent of significant medical issues, would be 400 pounds.
Yeah, right.
Some personal care and grooming and presentation.
I mean, these things are not unimportant.
Whenever you get these simple answers, you really be suspicious, right?
Because life is much more complex.
I mean, outside of don't kill, don't steal.
Life is way more complex than that.
So it's like, okay, to what degree should I be influenced by physical attractiveness?
Well, clearly, it can't be the sole criteria.
And clearly, it can't be zero.
And clearly it can't be zero, because that's a standard that would deny the reality of biological mammalian impulses, right?
Right. So, I mean, if you found the ultimate philosophical woman who was 80, would you get married?
No, seriously, right? I wouldn't.
No, you wouldn't, because maybe you want kids, right?
So these things are not unimportant.
If you found the most wonderful philosophical woman on the internet who was...
12, a girl, right?
I mean, you may have some chats with her or whatever, but you'd never date her, right?
Right, right. So there are some standards, obviously, at the extremes of 12 and 80, right?
Which are outside.
I mean, we would assume that somebody of 80 would be pretty wise if they'd been philosophical their whole life.
But then, of course, the question would be, well, if they're so wise, why do they want to date some shallow guy in his 20s?
Ha ha ha! But to say that physical attractiveness should be zero is ridiculous.
Look, physical attractiveness is not zero even for us as individuals.
What do you mean? Well, look, we all want to look in the mirror and like what we see, right?
Oh, right, right. I mean, I don't work out three times a week because I'm holding out for a backup career as a moving guy.
And I don't do it just for the sake of cardiovascular health in my 60s, right?
I do it partly because I want to feel trim and feel good and have strength and look good.
Yeah. I mean, I use a moisturizer on my face twice a day.
Could I get away with cheaper stuff?
Yeah, probably, but I like this stuff.
It feels good for my skin.
It keeps it supple. You know, I change out of my track pants when I go to the mall.
Would I be comfortable in track pants at the mall?
I certainly would. We all know we go for a job interview, we're not going to go up in a swimsuit no matter how hot it is in the office building, right?
Yeah, yes.
So even with our relationship with ourselves, there is a rational focus on shallow stuff, right?
Yeah. Or what you might call shallow, but I mean, it's real.
Yeah. Same thing's true with others.
So, you know, this is not a standard that we can evade or rationally get rid of.
Right, right. I've even had a lot of ambivalence about the individual appearance stuff, so I'm glad you brought that up.
Oh yeah, look, I mean, I have my shallowness and my vanities as well.
Absolutely. And I think to imagine that that just can be gotten rid of.
It's not reasonable.
I mean, it's like saying, I want to be perfectly happy if I have a headache.
We're dependent on the physical to some degree.
Right, and now I'm free to continue wearing makeup, so that's great.
Absolutely. Okay, I think, I mean, this has helped a lot.
In a pretty short time, so I wish I hadn't waited two years to bring it up again with you.
No, listen, no problem.
As always, my friend, go easy on yourself.
Trust others. You have very, very high standards, and I just want to make sure that they don't...
I mean, high standards is great, but just don't have them spill over into paralyzing or punitive standards.
Give yourself a break, right?
If you like a nice ass on a woman, that's okay.
It's completely fine to like a nice ass on a woman unless we can find some way of not being biological life forms, right?
I mean, it's the nice ass that has propelled us out of the swamps, right?
Right, right. We've ridden it.
We've ridden it like two twin globes.
Anyway, I think we get where we're going with that.
Yeah, just go easy on yourself.
There's no perfect answer to trust.
There's no perfect answer to shallowness.
But I would really, really focus on letting the other person monitor you rather than monitor yourself.
Okay. All right.
Thanks a lot, Steph. You're very welcome.
I'll send this to you. Let me know what you think.
Perfect. And this is fine if you release this.
Thank you so much. I'm sure it would be very helpful for others.
Okay. All right. Thank you.
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