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Oct. 6, 2010 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:27:52
1762 Speaking Up - A Conversation

Some tips on how to find your voice again...

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Time Text
Hello? Hello? Hi.
Oh, hi. Can you hear me?
Yes, I can. Does it sound okay?
Not too bad. Not too bad at all.
Not too bad at all. All right.
I just want to let you know I have a friend here with me.
He's my roommate. He's just going to hang out.
All right. Hello, roommate, friend, person.
Alright. I thought it would be worth just starting off with the post that you wrote.
Okay. Let me just...
I'll throw it into Skype and you can read it if you like.
Something I would maybe like to talk about also...
I've been journaling a lot today and I think I noticed...
A cycle of kind of feelings and thoughts that I've gone through multiple times today.
Right. I'm sorry, go ahead.
No, go ahead. So, it kind of starts with feeling really, really nervous and anxious about the call and being accompanied by thoughts of like, How am I going to do?
Am I going to be a disappointment to everybody in the call?
Am I going to be wasting people's time?
Am I not going to be able to think clearly?
But then I would journal that and after I would feel that I would start to feel really really sad and I would start thinking about my family and my relationship with them and My mother in particular, and...
Let's get to that, but I thought maybe you could just start with...
Sorry, let me just get your...
Just so you have a reference to it, let me just...
In the Skype window, I just put in the link to your quote, and I was wondering if we could just start with that.
Okay, let me see. The one you posted just on Monday.
Yeah, that's why I'm really using Skype, so I'm kind of guessing what I'm doing, but I think I got it.
All right. Go ahead.
Alright. I have felt very disassociated the last few days, and it's starting to bother me.
Last week, I journaled quite a bit, but I have avoided journaling the last couple of days, despite thinking you haven't journaled.
I think I have even been judging myself as bad for not journaling, which I think is a false judgment and just a self-attack.
There is nothing immoral about not journaling or reflecting in general, it just has a consequence of lower self-awareness.
Today, I forced myself to sit down and write in my journal for a while, and that made me feel a little more present for a short time, but it didn't last.
I feel like there is a lot swirling around in my head, but I can't seem to focus in on any of it.
At times the last few days I have even consciously sought distraction, but now I wish to be present.
Okay. I want to have a greater connection with my thoughts, feelings, and preferences going forward, and I think my ability to do so will grow with conscious effort, but right now, I am struggling to feel anything but foggy.
Actually, it seems more like a hurricane in my mind, with all kinds of debris flying around so fast that I cannot make any of it out.
I have also asked myself some questions.
Why am I feeling this way?
Why have I sought out distraction, etc., but so far have not come up with any answer.
Does anybody have any advice or strategies they can share, which they use when they desire to feel more connected internally, but are struggling to feel present?
Thanks. And this is your signature, right?
The quote from Pink Floyd? Yeah.
How does it go? Some hand in hand, some gathered together in bands.
The bleeding hearts and the artists make their stand.
And some fall.
After all, it's not easy banging your heart against some mad buggers wall.
Right. And that's sort of how you feel, right?
The mad bugger being yourself, right?
Yeah. And I think it makes sense with other people, too.
Like when you're trying to connect...
With them and just talk about something you think is true and they're not really in the discussion, it kind of feels like that too, I'd say.
Yeah, no, I'm sure.
Okay, so this is, as you know, this is just amateur hour, right?
So this is just, you know, possible thoughts, possible solutions.
And you know the first question that I always ask, right?
Um... I'm not going to say that I don't know.
Okay, well, tell me a little bit about your history with emotion as a child.
Your emotions and the emotions of those around you.
Emotions. That's a really vague and open-ended question.
Do you want me to focus it down a bit more?
Sure. Well, do you experience emotions from people around you as positive or negative or neutral?
And again, I know that's a big category, but just in general.
I'd say probably negative in general.
And I think even when emotions are put out there as positive, like professions of love and stuff, I... At least some of the time, found that to be kind of queasy and weird, not so much warm and happy.
Although sometimes, and maybe it wasn't true self, but sometimes it felt like it was a good thing.
Right. What a wonderful Mobius Strip wraparound answer.
You can pull some sense out of that.
Okay, so tell me about some of the emotions that you experienced as a child in your immediate environment.
I'm going to assume your family.
Of course, you can tell me if it's not.
What are some of the feelings or the passions or the emotions that people had that you found negative, for want of a better word?
And by negative, I just mean alarming or frightening or destructive or whatever.
I'm having trouble thinking how to answer that specific question, but...
Do you want me to be more specific in my questions?
Sorry, what? Do you want me to be more specific in my questions?
Because it doesn't sound like you have much luck, which makes sense, given where you are.
You're not having much luck with the open-ended questions, if that makes sense?
Yeah, I mean, I think I can say that I fear my parents.
That's something that is true now and was more than likely true in the past.
That's my feeling towards them.
Okay. Things will go a lot easier if you don't put as many brackets around your sentences, right?
So if you say, I fear my parents, right?
And I think that's what I got from what you were saying, but there was a lot of stuff around that.
Let's just try and stick with the basic facts rather than the equivocations around it, if that makes sense.
I know where they're coming from, but it just makes it easier, right?
So if you said that you fear your parents, what in their behavior has caused you to fear your parents?
Well, they spanked me.
Thank you.
Thank you.
That's scary.
They were quick to anger at times.
You know, they indoctrinated me with Christianity.
They...
They used their power over me arbitrarily.
What's that last one?
Can you tell me what that means a bit more?
I would just say, because we said so, when I would ask a question, when I would question something, if I thought something was unjust and I I tried to stand up for myself that it wasn't wrong, or I tried to explain what I was thinking and why I acted the way I did or said what I did say.
They would just get frustrated, and they would say, because we said so...
Right, okay.
Yeah, no, I understand.
So you would do something that they would disapprove of or disagree with or get angry about, and you would...
Have done whatever it was, not with the intention of that being the result, right?
But rather with some other intention, and you would try to say, well, I did it because, or my thoughts were X, or my intention was Y, and they would just say, well, that's not relevant.
Is that what you mean? Yeah, basically.
Right, okay. Okay.
And how often were you spanked?
Probably, if I had to just Guess roughly in my life.
I think it was probably less than 20 times.
And was it like bare buttocks?
Was it pants up? I mean, how did the spanking occur?
I don't remember ever having my pants pulled down for it.
So it was sort of over the knee, pants on, hitting the buttocks?
Yeah. There was one time where My mom was going to spank me, and I shoved the pillow between my pants and my butt, and when she saw that, she kind of laughed at me, but then she made me take it out, and she spanked me anyway.
I think that was probably early in the...
I don't think I had been spanked many times.
How old were you when that happened?
Uh... I'm thinking between three and six.
That's my guess. I'm not sure.
Okay. All right.
And you said that there were some times where you experienced your parents' feelings or emotions as positive.
I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that.
Okay. Okay, let's stop now.
We're going to take a different tag here, right?
Because you notice that every time I'm asking something, it's really hard for you to answer, right?
Yeah. Okay, so let's forget about history, and let's just talk about what's going on for you right now.
Okay. Because it sort of feels like you're kind of warding me off, so to speak.
And I'm not saying you're doing it consciously.
You may not even be doing it.
That's just sort of my experience.
Yeah. So let's forget about the past.
Tell me what's occurring for you when I'm asking you these questions.
What are you feeling when I'm asking you?
See, there we go again, right?
We need to find a place where you can answer without going, um, because um means to me that I don't have access to you.
Um is like a big bunch of soldiers saying, wait a second, we have to organize the troops here for inspection so you can't come in just yet, right?
I feel tightness in my chest and my throat.
My head's kind of hurting.
Right, so do you feel threatened?
Do you feel under threat? A little bit.
If you had to sort of give it some context, the physical sensations or the feelings, do you feel that there's danger?
What is it that you feel that would cause those sensations?
I think that when you talk about danger, my feelings, yeah, I guess I feel kind of scared.
And I felt kind of scared before the call.
I mean, I know I'm not in danger, but I think I do feel...
Well, see, I don't know if you know much about this ecosystem idea, right?
But when, like, we all have lots, everyone we've met is in us, I believe.
Like, we're a haunted house of history.
Everyone that we've met, and particularly people like our parents, I mean, they're all in our minds, right?
Right. And so when you say, I'm not in danger, that's to indicate that every part of you is perfectly happy with this conversation.
But I can guarantee you, my friend, every part of you is not happy with this conversation.
Some parts are very happy to have this conversation, and some parts of you are very not happy to have this conversation.
Does that make any sense? Yeah, I completely agree.
I mean, I was motivated to do it, and I want to do it, but I'm feeling all these negative feelings and this tension, and...
Yeah.
Now, let me ask you this.
It's a tough question, but I know you can do it.
So, in this conversation...
I'm guessing that there's history.
Historical roles are being assigned.
When we're under stress, what we do is we try to go back into roles that we're familiar with, right?
So in this kind of role, do I feel like a cross-examining parent to you?
Like who's going to try and catch you and corner you or a teacher or maybe a priest, I don't know, but some authority figure.
Who's going to try and get you?
In other words, do you feel like a child who's being cross-examined with the intent of punishment?
Is that right? Yes. Okay.
Okay. But that's good to know, right?
That's good to know. So this is what the errs are for, right?
Because the errs and the ums are like, fuck, I've got to get my story straight.
Shit, I've got to get my story straight because I'm being cross-examined.
I'm sorry, go ahead. I don't want to manage you, but that's my instinct that's been programmed by my history today.
Oh, look, you understand, I'm not criticizing you at all.
I think what you're doing shows tremendous courage.
I know. It's really tough to be on the receiving end of these conversations.
So I hugely admire what you're doing.
There's not the tiniest atom of criticism or negativity in me about identifying this.
I'm just trying to figure out where we are so that we can connect, if possible.
Yeah. All right.
Now... Have you had conversations with your parents about your history, things that you found useful, things that you found not so useful, and so on?
Not a lot about our history.
I haven't talked to them about anarchism.
Sorry, when you say not a lot about...
Our history. What does that mean?
Does that mean like a couple of hours or does that mean, is that your way of saying not at all?
Not at all. Okay, and I'm not trying to catch you.
I just want to know what the facts are.
So again, you just need to just, you know, here's a place where you can just be completely frank, right?
You just tell the truth, right?
So you've talked to them about sort of maybe anarchy, some atheism perhaps, or no?
Yeah, which is a big deal because my mom is actually a preacher.
Right, right.
Which is kind of a...
I don't know, you listened to this conversation I had with The Amazing Atheist recently?
Yeah, I did actually.
Alright, so that's a big deal, right?
Your mom... Is in the profession, right?
So it's a pretty big deal for her, right?
How long has she been a preacher?
She started studying to do that when I was in high school.
And I think she started preaching while I was in college.
Right. And actually, when I was very young, we hardly went to church at all and pretty much didn't talk about that stuff.
Sure. But then sometime when I was, I don't know, between 8 and 10, I think, we, that's when my parents decided we were going to find a church, and it kind of slowly grew in importance to her over time.
Right. And I feel like I, that definitely, I'm sure other things sit too, but that certainly drove a wedge between my mother and I, even though at the time I I had no choice but to kind of go along with it and convince myself that it was good and true and all that.
So, if I understand it right, you weren't raised religious when you were younger, but your mom became more religious as she got older?
Yeah. When I was very young, we may have gone to church here and there, but it wasn't a big part of our lives.
It wasn't regular at all, and we really didn't even talk about it.
Right. Right.
Oh, sorry. Somebody just corrected me.
It's the thinking atheist, not the amazing atheist.
But all right. Okay.
And right.
So if I'm going to go out on a limb and guess, right?
So part of you feels like a kid who's being cross-examined.
And so the arms are like, you know, I got to get my story straight here or I'm going to be in big trouble.
Right. But I would also submit that part of your resistance to the conversation, part of your anxiety around the conversation, is I'm not just talking to you, but I'm talking to your parents, right?
In you. Yeah.
And your parents in you probably don't want you to be having this conversation, right?
Yeah, they don't.
They don't want to have this conversation with me.
Right, and they don't want me to have this conversation with you, right?
Yeah, no. They've never heard of you, but they don't.
Well, no, but the parents in you have certainly heard of me, right?
Like your parents in your head? Oh, yeah.
So, the parents in your head...
I'm sorry?
The parent in me is very stressed out about your existence.
All right, so why don't you tell me what the parents in your head are thinking and feeling about this conversation?
My heart is beating harder now.
Right. Their heart, right?
You share the heart with everyone in your head, right?
So their heart is beating faster.
So what do the parents in your head think and feel about you having this conversation?
Um... I think they should be...
I think they're scared. Go on.
Um... I... They don't want me to be sure.
They don't want me to be sure that they're wrong, both compared to reality, logically and empirically, and that they're wrong morally for what they did and what they continue to do and what they,
despite hearing solid arguments from me, Are just not opening up to and being willing to even hear.
Alright, so what happens if you become certain about religion and ethics and this and that?
What happens to the parents in your head?
What are their fears?
What is going to happen?
I think if I really felt certain about all these things completely through and through that they would lose their kind of the little scrap of authority that they still get to have in my head for some reason.
What is going to happen?
Like they would lose the power that they apparently still have.
Does that make sense? It does.
I wonder if you can just try playing your mom for a sec.
I'm assuming that your mom as the preacher is the one who's a little bit more dominant in this area.
Yeah. So just try it.
It may have worked, it may not. But just instead of saying they, just try saying I, right?
So if I'm going to talk to your mom and say, well, why can't I have this conversation with your son?
Why can't anyone have this conversation?
Why can't somebody have this conversation with your son?
And what is she going to say?
She wouldn't say that you can't have this conversation with me.
Okay.
Uh, well then what if I say, why is it stressful for me to have a conversation with your son?
All right.
I'll just, I'll do it in her voice.
Yeah, yeah. I just think that stuff's a little out there, and I don't think it makes sense I don't understand why you've turned away from God and why you want to push me on these issues.
I don't understand why we can't just have disagreements.
I think that last one was more accurate.
Why we can't have disagreements?
Okay, so wait a sec, because you were saying you, which is not me.
Is this your mom talking to you, or is this your mom talking to me?
That was my mom. I was trying to talk as my mom.
Okay, no, no, that's fine.
Do you want me to talk as you rather than me, and you talk as your mom?
Whatever you think is best.
No, no, it's whatever you think is best.
It's your head, right? Let's try me talking as you, and you talking as your mom.
Okay. Alright.
So your mom says, this is all kind of out there, and I don't know why you're pushing this stuff on me, and why can't we just have disagreements?
Is that right? Yeah.
Okay, so if I were you, I would say then, okay, so tell me what you mean by far out.
I don't understand what far out means.
I mean... I'm sorry.
I'm having trouble thinking of what she would say in response to that.
Right. That's good.
That's good. It means it's not an automatic conversation.
Because if you were to get into a typical, let's say, fight with your mom, you know exactly what you'd say, exactly what she'd say.
It's like a script that you already know, right?
Yeah. The stuff I was trying to say before, I didn't feel totally confident about most of it.
Do you want to try that again?
To play my mom? Yeah.
Sure. Okay.
So, what...
Why do you feel tense about me talking to this philosophy guy?
I think it's good that you're looking into...
Different ideas and stuff, but I think you've got to be careful because there's a lot of ideas out there that are tricky and there's a lot of people who want to...
I don't know.
I'm not very confident in what I'm saying.
I thought you were doing great.
Actually, I think I'm getting a good sense of your mom.
If you want to stop, that's no problem.
If you want to keep going, that's no problem.
I think you're doing great, but it's up to you.
This is a conversation I haven't had.
Oh, yes, you have.
Look, you've had this conversation in your head, and that's why you haven't had it in real life.
You have an idea of how this conversation is going to go in your head, and that's why you haven't had it in real life.
Does that make sense? Yeah.
Right, so you have a fear that this conversation is going to go badly, and that's why you have avoided having it, and you're talking about the relatively safer topics of atheism and anarchism, right?
Yeah, the topic I really want to talk about is us, our relationship, the pain that I feel, and the fear, and I want it to change.
That's That's more important than the other stuff.
And do you want to try that then?
Like you play your mom, I'll play you?
That conversation?
Yeah. Okay.
And I'll play my mom?
Yes. Or your dad.
Or whoever. It sounds like your mom may be first and foremost, but it's up to you.
Okay, well, dad's response is...
I don't really understand all this stuff, but, you know, I just want you to know that I love you and that there's a bond between a father and a son that can never be broken and that I'm sorry if I got too emotional at times.
That's it. That's dad.
I've had a brief conversation with him.
I guess I did have one conversation with my parents where I tried to talk to them about how I was feeling scared when I would talk to them a lot of times.
And that was dad's response.
Right. So it's not very inviting, right?
Like you couldn't talk much more about it.
So it shuts the conversation down.
Is that right? Yeah, he doesn't talk and he shuts down in about two seconds flat.
Right. Right.
Alright. Well, let's try.
I'll be you, you be your mom.
Okay. Mom, I'd really like to talk to you about our relationship.
My relationship with you when I was a kid, my relationship with you Now that I'm an adult, I just think there's a lot of stuff that I'm really scared and frightened to bring up.
I'm frightened of how you might react.
I'm frightened of how the conversation may go.
I'm frightened about what might happen to our relationship.
I don't know if any of those fears are real.
I don't know if it's just me being paranoid or whether those fears are real.
I don't know. The fact that I have some problems with the way that I was raised.
I've had some significantly negative experiences and I really, really want to talk about them so that we can discuss them now that we're all adults, I guess, in the relationship.
And so that I can feel that my perspective is, you know, you don't have to agree with what I'm saying, but I'd really like to have you hear me out.
Well, first of all, I'm really sorry to hear that you feel afraid to talk to me.
And I hope you know that you can talk to me about anything.
And I know your father and I, we made mistakes For sure.
But first of all, know that we love you no matter what, even if we have disagreements about things.
Well, I appreciate that. And maybe what you could do is you can tell me, Mom, what the mistakes are that you're talking about so that I have some sense of where you're coming from.
Because, you know, we haven't really talked about this stuff, but I think it's important.
So what are the mistakes that you're talking about?
Well, I know that I used to be very...
Hello? Yes, sorry.
Go ahead. You dropped. So you said, as your mom, you were saying that you used to be very, and then you dropped, so very.
Oh, I used to be very angry.
And when I saw you beginning to act angry too, I realized that I had passed that on to you and that I had I was repeating the anger that I got from my father.
Okay, go on.
That's actually something that she has said one time and I haven't felt able to ask her for more because she said a couple of times to me like the thing about like, you know, I know we made some mistakes.
It's always followed by...
But we love you, right?
Yeah. Okay, so you used to be very angry.
What other mistakes, Mom, do you recall?
Well, I don't know.
What do you mean you don't know? You said mistakes, like plural, right?
So you're talking about the anger thing, which I'd like to talk about more, because that had a big effect on me.
But what else?
Sorry, do you mean that you only made...
I just don't know. I just don't know.
Don't know what? I can't...
I mean, I know I made other mistakes...
Great. Okay. No, that's good.
And I'm not trying to put you under the bus.
I just want to understand what you think of as mistakes so that I can compare it to what I think of as mistakes.
And they may be exactly the same thing, in which case we can have a great conversation about them and move forward.
I don't understand what the point of this is.
I don't understand why...
The point is that it's important to me.
These are things that I want to talk about.
These are things that are important to me.
These are things that had a big effect on me.
So that's why I want to talk about them.
At this point, my mom probably starts crying on the phone.
Great. And I say, okay, well, I appreciate that you love me.
And of course, people who love each other will do things for each other, right?
So this is something that I need from you.
This is something that's very important for me.
So rather than telling me that you love me, perhaps you can show me love in action by continuing a conversation about this stuff that's really important to me.
Don't you think that I love you? Don't you believe me?
We're not talking about...
This conversation is not about your love for me.
This conversation is about something that I need.
What about what I need?
Well, we can have a conversation at some point tomorrow, this afternoon, tonight, about what you need.
This conversation is about what I need.
So let's go back to you said that you made mistakes and you talked about being very angry or being angry.
And that's good for me to know.
It's good for me to know that you know that so that when I talk about it, it's not something where you say, well, I don't remember, I don't know.
So what else?
I remember good stuff from you as a parent.
I remember some great stuff from you as a parent.
So this isn't about painting you up and down in a black brush or anything.
I want to know what you consider the mistakes that you made as a parent so that I can figure out where my experience and your experience meet and where they're different.
Because if they meet, then we both are in agreement and that's great.
If they're different... Then either one of us or both of us are wrong, and that's where we need to sort of figure things out so we're on the same page as far as our history goes.
So what are the other things that you feel some regret for?
I mean, nobody's perfect.
I certainly have regrets about some of the things I did as a kid, which we can talk about at some point as well.
but what are the other things that you regret as a parent?
I'm coming up blank.
Thank you.
That's me, not my mom.
Right, right, right. So, okay, so let's circle back and we'll just talk about your mom's anger, okay?
Okay. And let me just ask you before we do that, is this at all helpful to you?
Yeah. I'm feeling a lot.
Good, good. Do you want to talk about what you feel or do you want to dig into your mom's anger thing?
Well, I think when I was her...
Especially when I was saying things that I felt pretty confident that are kind of things that she would say or at least think or mean, whatever.
I... I think I was feeling some anger.
As her or as you?
Feeling a little bit of anger.
A little bit of anger now.
But I'm still... My head hurts and I'm still kind of tense.
Maybe a little bit less so.
My heart's not beating as hard.
Alright, let's go back then and talk about your mom's anger.
Okay. Alright, so we'll just jump back into the roleplay.
So, you used to be...
Now, sorry, just before we do that, I can't remember.
Did your mom say very angry or just angry?
Did she say very angry?
Yeah, like, did your mom say she was very angry or just angry?
I think she would say very angry.
Okay. So, Mom, you were very angry when I was younger.
Not always, but significant amounts of time.
How many years did this go on for you?
Well, I recognized it when you were pretty young.
Maybe... When you were between six and eight.
And that's when I decided I needed to fix that.
Right. And what did you do to fix it?
Well, I just worked on being more positive.
And also, it helped...
A lot that I found the joy of Jesus Christ when I let him into my heart.
And that really filled me with a lot more joy and positivity.
Right. Right.
Right. Okay. So, we have...
And how long do you do...
Let's say that seven, I was seven when you figured this out.
out, how long do you think that it took for you to solve, as you say, your anger issues?
I'm not sure how to answer.
Okay.
Okay, but it didn't happen in one day.
It may have happened over a couple of months.
It may have happened over a year.
But we're talking six, seven or eight years of a significant amount of anger, right?
Well, but once I found Jesus Christ, I felt miraculously better.
Well, that's great for you, Mom.
That's great for you.
But you understand that for me, it was zero to seven of a pretty angry person in my life who had all the power in the world over me.
You understand that that's really terrifying.
Well, but I don't think I... I don't think I was too...
Angry? I don't think I was too bad.
Do you think I was a bad mother?
Well, we're not trying to jump to conclusions.
I'm just telling you what my experience was.
You yourself said that you were very angry for not insignificant amounts of time, for seven or more years, which were my formative years as a child, right?
I was born into that, and that's what I experienced, and that's all that I knew, and I sure as hell didn't know that it was going to end, right?
Well, yeah. So, that is a problem that I have.
Like, why didn't you sort this out before you had children?
Like, I would much rather have been born into a household where my mom wasn't very angry.
Why did it take so long?
She's crying...
All right, and what's she saying when she's crying?
I just...
I don't understand...
I want you to know that I love you.
Yeah, Mom, I need to ask you to stop telling me that you love me.
I've heard you the first half dozen times.
I need you to stop telling me that because that's not what I need to hear from you right now.
What I need to hear from you is some understanding that I have a problem with how I was raised.
I'm not saying you were a bad mom.
I'm not saying that it was all bad.
But this is a significant problem that I have with how I was raised.
And look, Mom, you got seven years to be very angry.
I'm just talking about seven minutes here.
I had to live with you being quite angry for seven years, my seven formative years.
I'm just asking for seven minutes now where we can talk about this, where I can be angry.
Don't you love me?
We're not talking about whether I love you.
We're talking about the fact that I'm angry about how I was raised in some significant ways.
This is not about you.
This is about me and my experience as being your son.
Can you understand that it was scary and frustrating and sometimes enraging for me to be raised with this kind of anger?
I think she's either crying or incredibly, incredibly angry right now.
I'm having trouble imagining what words would be coming from her.
Alright. At some point, though, I mean, she's either going to accept that this was your experience, or she's just going to have a meltdown or hang up.
Is that fair to say? Yeah.
I think I'm afraid that it's...
I think I'm afraid that nothing's ever going to change with them.
I've already brought to her, and it should be important to her as a preacher, you know, it should be the most important question of all is, you know, let's make sure that this whole God exists thing makes some sense.
And I think I've brought some pretty damn good arguments against it.
And when it came to the point where I put it to her, okay, let's define two words.
God exists.
The conversation ended.
And all I get now is...
We don't go there, right.
Yeah, it's like, I know she likes to, here and there, bring up the whole, like, well, we can have disagreements kind of stuff.
And I don't go there.
I don't really try to talk about it.
Although it eats me up inside that she's...
Harmed me in this way and that she's helping other parents harm their kids in this way.
I feel like I've been emotionally and intellectually retarded by this religion stuff.
Right. Right.
Now, let's go step away from the religion stuff and I totally understand why you brought that up and I appreciate that you brought it up because it's a parallel as to how you think the emotional conversation might go.
Okay. I was feeling passionate.
No, no. And I completely agree with that.
And I think that it's a very important thing to be passionate about, for whatever that's worth.
Your passions are not subject to my approval or disapproval.
They're not subject to anybody's approval or disapproval, but that's my opinion.
But let me tell you that the reason why the role plays are important is it gives me a chance to feel what it's like to be you.
The role play for me, it's important to hear your mom's side of things, but it's most important for me to experience what it's like to be you with your mom.
As best as I can over the internet in a few minutes, if that makes any sense.
And I can tell you what my experience was, and you can tell me if it matches your experience.
Well, I felt like I was reaching a hand out, and it was constantly being batted away, smacked away.
And your mom has a number of strategies that resulted in me feeling that way, right?
So she would say something in a very abstract way, like, mistakes were made, and then I, as you, would say, okay, well, what were those mistakes?
And then suddenly she wouldn't have much to say.
And then she kept throwing in the love bombs, right?
I love you, don't you love me?
She tried to frame it into a big conclusion that you could argue about, right?
Rather than the emotional experience, right?
The real-time relationship thing is about talking about what's important to you, what you think and feel in the moment.
It's not about jumping to big conclusions like, was I a good mom or a bad mom or do you love me or don't you love me?
Those are all just ways of shutting down the moment, right?
Yeah, it's not one thing.
It's a million interactions.
Right, right. It's like you and I are working through a really, really big math problem.
We've got stuff on 15 blackboards.
We're juggling 1,200 equations in our head.
And someone comes in and pounds the desk and says, well, what's the answer, goddammit?
And you're like, I can't tell you, but you're totally throwing me off, right?
Because we're working out the answer.
Yeah. Yeah. Right?
So your mom was constantly jumping in with these big conclusions.
Is it this or is it this?
This black and white thinking. And black and white thinking is very primitive thinking.
Yeah. And it was a way of disrupting the delicacy and richness of what I, as you, was trying to talk about, right?
There was good and there was bad.
And families, you know, we can talk about the good and families do talk about the good a lot.
It's really important to talk about the bad.
I mean, every relationship that I have that has any goddamn meaning at all, we can talk about the good and we can talk about the bad.
You can't change the bad if you can't talk about it.
Yeah, but you can't change the bad in history, but you can't have a relationship with people where you can only smile.
That's totally...
My mom's got that eternally positive fake outside smile Christian thing.
Oh, I know. I've seen that.
It's like they get those picture portraits and they just plaster them on their face from here to eternity, right?
Yeah. Yeah, but I can see.
When I see their pictures, they're not happy.
They're my parents. I can see that.
Okay, but let's get back to this interaction.
See, you're trying to do that thing that your mom does, right?
Which is going into these abstract conclusions, right?
Yeah. So, I felt rejection, but I didn't feel that your mom was consciously rejecting me.
I just felt like it was an automatic defense that she wasn't even aware of.
If that makes any sense.
Can you repeat that?
I'm sorry.
I didn't feel like she was rejecting me.
I didn't feel like she was looking at me and seeing me and then saying, I reject this person in this moment.
What I felt was that there were just these doors slamming shut that she couldn't even hear.
Like, I didn't feel that it was a conscious rejection.
I just felt like it was unconscious defenses that were being moved around or doors were closing and there was this dance going on to avoid the actual...
to avoid what I, as you, was actually saying.
But I didn't feel that your mom was consciously rejecting me.
I just felt that there were these unconscious defenses that were blocking off the communication.
But I didn't think that she was aware of it, if that makes any sense.
Yeah. Which is, to me, even scarier, but I just wanted to point that out.
Like, I didn't feel that there was conscious, you know, like, if you've done something wrong and you're about to get caught, you're conscious of the fact that you're going to fudge and lie or whatever it is to get away with it.
I didn't get that sense, particularly with your mom.
I just felt that there were these automatic defenses that were very primitive and very powerful and very deep.
I didn't get the sense that she was...
Rejecting me, she just had these defenses that came in automatically and just ended stuff.
Yeah, I think I definitely sometimes experience her as sometimes more automatic and distant, seeming like more defensive, kind of reacting.
And then it's like there'll be brief moments where it'll seem like she's more conscious.
And it leaves me wondering, like, where is she at with her consciousness?
What does she know and not know?
Right, right, right, right, right.
So I just, again, I'm not saying that this has nothing to do with the truth, right?
This is just, this is what I experienced in this roleplay, right?
So, but what I, I tell you what I really felt, my friend, what I really, really, really felt was, I felt insignificant relative to her defenses.
I felt like, well, I had some anger, right?
I had some anger because I thought the love bombs were manipulative, but I love you.
It's like, fuck, I don't want to talk about you loving me right now because it's not what I'm talking about, right?
Yeah. It's about as much relevance as if a cop pulls me over for speeding and I say, but I love my country.
It's like, we're not talking about you loving you.
We're talking about you going too fast on the road, right?
Yeah. Yeah. So I felt that that was just something that was pulled out like, well, this has worked in the past, so I'll just say, I love you.
And what I tried to explain in the roleplay was, look, I don't want you to say that you love me, I want you to show me that you love me by letting me talk about something that's really important to me.
Don't give me the words, give me the deeds, because the words, I love you, were actually against the deed called love, which is to let someone talk about something that's difficult to you, right?
Yeah, but in her mind, or at least the way she'll play it, is that, you know, family is love.
Right, right. But love means that I get to talk about things that are important to me, even if they make you a little uncomfortable.
Of course you can.
Of course you can talk to me about it.
Right, so then you would try and talk, and then she'd find some other way to block it.
So I felt some anger about that conversation.
Which I thought that was more of a conscious ploy.
Well, I just say I love you and then magically the love is there and everything's fixed, right?
That seemed more manipulative.
The other thing that I felt more angry about was that your mom could be angry for seven or eight years, but you couldn't be angry for seven seconds, right?
Yeah. Like that to me was, that was really hypocritical.
And I think your mom sensed that.
Well, she is still angry, though, too.
Of course she is. Of course she is.
She just hides it under a veneer.
I'm sorry? Yeah. She just hides it under that Christian super-positive veneer.
Right, right. But it comes out very easily if you push the right button.
Oh, the anger comes out in what Christianity does to children, right?
That's where the anger comes out.
What she's continuing to do as a preacher, which is to spill all these lies into the ears of helpless and innocent children, right?
Yeah. But that to me was where I got really angry roleplaying you there, and I was starting to push that, and then your mom, I think at that point, the conversation's short-circuited, but it's like, so you can be angry for seven years, and that's okay, because you found Jesus, but now I'm angry for seven seconds, and that's unacceptable, right?
Well, that's completely hypocritical, right?
Yeah. So, look, I think you have good reason to be cautious about this conversation.
Yeah. I mean, I just want to validate you there, right?
Going back to your original point about feelings, I tell you what I felt most strongly.
This is the most fundamental experience I had of this roleplay, which may just be my shit, right?
But I'll just pass it along anyway.
I felt that there was a constant chess game going on, that I wanted to have feelings and she did not want me to have feelings.
That my feelings were a significant threat to her sense of self.
Whatever that means.
Or some threat to her.
Like if I actually have feelings and can communicate them to her, I felt that she was blocking and diverting and fogging and redirecting all to throw me off actually having and expressing my emotions.
Does that resonate at all with your experience?
Um, I think so.
I didn't feel any strong emotion when you said that.
I was just kind of mulling it over.
I mean, I certainly feel like...
I can't understand why they can't take me seriously for five seconds.
Well, it's interesting that you would say that they can't take you seriously.
I experienced, as roleplaying you, that your mom was taking you very seriously.
And was terrified.
Like, took it as a serious threat?
Oh, yeah. Oh, yes.
Very serious.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm kind of...
I'm agreeing with what you're saying.
I'm feeling kind of blank, though.
Right.
That's okay.
That's okay.
It seemed to be all about her.
Yeah.
Yeah. Now, full disclosure, right?
I had a mom who was extremely narcissistic.
It was all about her, so I don't want to project my history and experience onto you, right?
Because this is your relationship, your mom is not my mom, and so on, right?
Yeah. But I will tell you some of the things that I realized about my own mom, and maybe they'll help you, and maybe they'll just be interesting, hopefully, as an example of me and my mom.
Yeah. But my emotions, the existence of my emotions could not be survived within my family structure by anybody.
I was somebody who always had to accommodate others, right?
Every piece of loud machinery needs a lot of grease and oil, and I was the grease and I was the oil.
I was that which made everything work by not having any identity of my own, by not having any self.
Everybody else could be intransigent, right?
In any family system, the more people are stubborn and intransigent and fixed and brittle, the more other people have to accommodate them.
And usually it's one person, right?
Usually it's like a mom and a dad.
Like it's usually it's a brittle mom and an absent dad and then a brittle sibling.
And then the other sibling is the accommodating one.
It's just different patterns that I've noticed as a science No. Right, then the kid is usually the youngest kid, though it doesn't always have to be.
Sometimes it's the middle kid, but usually it's the youngest kid.
The youngest kid, which I guess would be you, the only kid, has to be accommodating.
Now, the more rigid somebody is on one side of the equation, the more accommodating...
The person has to be on the other side, right?
Which is why it's not a relationship.
It's just appeasement. It's just, well, this person is rigid and volatile and primitive and aggressive and dogmatic and absolutist.
And so, if I'm that way, everything blows up.
Somebody has to accommodate the narcissist in order for the family system to survive or to continue in any way, shape, or form.
Now, in my A family system.
My father was absent, right?
I mean, physically, but also emotionally.
My brother was more sadistic, but my mother was this dogmatic absolutist who, you know, whim was law, right?
And she careened between mysticism and some occasional religiosity and, you know, beliefs in UFOs and telekinesis and crazy shit like that.
And because she was this huge lashing out rolling ball of anacondas in the room, I had to accommodate.
I had to accommodate my mother and I had to accommodate my brother.
And that system developed that way, and it only survived because I did not have an identity.
I did not have emotions.
I did not have preferences.
I was just there to keep the peace.
Oh, how far I have come.
I'm not keeping the peace now so much, but that's good.
good I think that's progress and so in my family system emotions my emotions were the family system couldn't survive if I had emotions and the family system is a nice way of putting it that by the people in my family their illusions could not survive me having thoughts and feelings yeah
My mom's illusions could not survive me having thoughts and feelings.
My brother's illusions about himself could not survive me having thoughts and feelings.
The family system could not accommodate that.
If I was not the lubricant, the silent easer of everybody else's craziness, the silent appeaser of everybody else's delusions, the whole system blew up.
So, to cut to the chase, When I began to have feelings, I self-attacked.
I dissociated.
I absented myself because that was my programming.
My programming was feelings equals disaster.
You, Steph, cannot have and express your feelings.
You must be a silent, white-faced po'boy who forever runs around picking up the shit that other crazy people throw around.
That's your job.
You are the little maid of everybody's nuthouse.
And if you stand up and say, well, I don't want to pick up after you're crazy anymore...
I don't want to clean up after your nutbag barf out.
I don't like it when you all are crazy.
I don't like this role.
I never liked it.
I resent having had it inflicted on me.
I hate this role.
Well, that didn't work out so well.
Hello? Hello.
Hey, I lost you.
You were talking about being the lubricant for the rigid other members of the family.
Do you remember the last phrase that I used?
It was something like that.
Like, you had to be the grease.
I don't remember the exact sentence.
Sorry. Well, I had to be the pale, po-faced maid who ran around cleaning up after everybody else is crazy.
Right, so... So there was a house and everybody just kept wrecking stuff, throwing stuff and screaming and setting fire to things, you know, metaphorically at least to some degree.
And I was the guy who had to walk around putting out the fires and cleaning up stuff and comforting this person and making sure this person didn't get too upset and not having any needs and perspectives or preferences or emotions of my own.
Yeah. So everybody else got to act out they're crazy, and I had to just sit there and shut the fuck up.
Because if I spoke up, fucking everything blew up.
Like if I said, look, I'm sick and tired of picking up after you're crazy.
I'm sick and tired of accommodating your bullshit.
I'm going to call it like it is.
I hate this fucking role.
I hate that this family put me in this role.
I hate that this family kept me in this role.
I hate that this family sacrificed my integrity and my intelligence and my identity for the sake of maintaining these shitbag crazy illusions.
I hate it. I hate the fact that it happened to me.
I hate the fact that I had to submit.
But I'm an adult now.
I don't have to submit anymore.
I can have feelings.
I can have my preferences.
I can have shit that I'm angry about.
I can have stuff that I'm happy about.
Even with my family, there's stuff that I was happy about.
But I have this stuff that I really, really resent.
That I really, really, really did not fucking like.
Which was that you all sacrificed me like a bunch of crazy old-time Aztecs On the altar of, I have five pounds of crazy that I can't stuff into a two-pound bag.
So everything spilled out and I had to go around sweeping it up and cleaning it up and shutting up.
Because the moment that I actually opened my mouth and stated my preferences, they didn't want to have anything to do with me.
They didn't want to have anything to do with me the moment that I actually spoke my mind.
Because I don't want to talk to the lubricant in my car, do I? I don't want to have my lubricant have any opinions.
That's not what it's there for.
It's there to make my motor run and get changed once in a while, sure.
But to actually have an identity?
No, no, no. It's an oil.
It's a lubricant. It's something that aids everything else working.
It's not something that's supposed to have opinions or desires or dreams or hopes or preferences of its own.
And I also understood, I'm not saying this is your experience, I'm just telling you what I'm, what I experienced.
Everybody made me eat their crazy.
Everybody made me eat their crazy.
It's like those birds that ralph up those half-chewed goddamn worms into the beaks of their young.
Well, that was my family.
I had to eat their crazy.
For a decade and a half, which felt like about 1,500 years, I had to eat crazy without any sauce, without any marinades, with no salt, no seasoning, just straight up, play to crazy, eat, eat, eat, all day long.
And when I said, when I pushed the plate away, and I said, I am done eating your crazy.
I am so done eating your crazy.
Everybody panicked.
Because that crazy then, it whiplashes on people.
If you're not accommodating other people's crazy, if you're not eating their crazy, if you're not absorbing it, it bounces back onto them, right?
They only feel less crazy because they've got someone to dump their crazy into.
So when you stop being the receptacle for other people's delusions, Those delusions turn back on them.
Like serpents in the hand, striking back at them.
And they panic. You know, it's like when you flush the toilet and you've had such a great crap that it starts to rise back up and you feel that kind of, oh shit, literally.
Well, that's what happens.
When people can't flush, they're crazy.
Down your submissive throat, it begins to rise up in their own personality and it overwhelms them and it's terrifying.
It's horrifying.
And they literally feel like you're attacking them.
And so when you say, I'm having trouble feeling things, well, I would say, of course you are.
Of course you are.
Because it's possible that your family system relies...
It's not strong enough a word.
It requires that you not have feelings.
Because if you have feelings, everybody has to start eating their own crazy rather than dumping it on you.
So your feelings are as welcome to other people as a toilet backing up.
So of course you have trouble with your feelings.
Of course you do.
The whole family structure may be constituted based upon the necessity that you don't have preferences.
All slaves can't have preferences.
No slave can have a preference, right?
Yeah.
Now, I'm using strong language, and this is more my experience, right?
So I'm not trying to tell you what you think and feel, but to me, that's how I would approach.
If I were in your shoes, that's how I would approach.
You have feelings, of course.
Your feelings just happen to be really inconvenient to other people, to say the least.
And so you have within you feeling suppressors, which is the family system.
And the church system, and, I mean, I never mention public school because it's just so obvious, right?
The family stuff is harder, and I'm sure you have, right?
But you have these inner senses which says you can't have feelings because feelings are inconvenient to everyone else.
They disrupt the stability, for want of a better word, of the family system.
So, to me, it's not surprising that you feel distant from yourself and that journaling is tough because journaling threatens the internal family system where you can have feelings.
I mean, when I was roleplaying you and your mom was talking and she was talking repeatedly about having found Jesus Christ, well, she knows you're an atheist, right?
Yeah. I mean, without saying, and although I know you don't believe that, right?
It was important to me.
Like, no consciousness, it seemed, of your experience.
It was all about her, her experience, her words, what was necessary for her.
Right? And that's why when I said, as you, this is what I need, she said, well, what about my needs?
Immediately focusing you not on what your needs and your experience was, but on what she needed and her experiences, right?
Because you can't have your own needs.
You can't have your own preferences.
You have to be thinking about her needs and her preferences, and that is always inflicted through fear.
And that, I don't believe, is motivated by love.
Yeah, I think it would be a perversion of the word love to say that she does love me.
Thank you.
I mean, when I try to be honest and share with her these ideas, I mean, I would love to convert her to atheism if that were possible.
Hello? Oh, we're back.
Well, you said that you would love to convert her to atheism.
It's not a conversion. I mean, I know that...
I mean, conversion is a religious term, right?
Yeah, I'm sorry. It was a bad word to use.
You would like to help free her from delusion.
Yeah. You know, like if somebody...
Sorry, when my daughter writes down that 2 plus 2 is 4...
Sorry, if my daughter writes down that 2 plus 2 is 5 and I say, no, honey, 2 plus 2 is 4, I'm not converting her.
I'm just correcting her because she's wrong.
Yeah, I agree. That was a wrong word.
But anyway, sorry, go on.
Yeah. I mean, I'm aiming at the truth, and I just...
I want to share the truth with the people in my life, and I could be wrong about things, but what I'm having with my mother is not an honest and open and curious debate.
It's just her being shut down and reacting and attacking me if necessary, Oh, did we lose you again?
No, I'm here. Sorry.
Oh, sorry. Right, right.
I mean, I'm very much around empiricism, so I think have the conversation with your mom.
I mean, I think have the conversation with your mom.
I think, you know, get a therapist if you can to help you through this, as I always say.
I go hoarse at repeating myself on this.
But have the conversation, you know.
I can't stress to you how important it is to not...
Have a relationship that is like you're like a little fucking nutless asteroid wandering around a monstrous maternal son that is indifferent to your needs.
And this is not about you and your mom fundamentally.
This is just about you and your relationships.
Don't have relationships where you can't be honest because they're not relationships.
You know, everyone in the freedom movement is so concerned about fiat currency.
Fiat currency. The government can just print whatever they want and...
But the ultimate fiat currency is suppressing and denying who you are in a relationship.
That's the ultimate counterfeit.
Because it's a debasing of your own currency.
For the sake of what?
For the sake of what?
I look back at all those years that I sacrificed and repressed and crushed and killed off who I was for the sake of appeasing those around me.
For what?
Why did I do it for so many years?
Because these people were so heroic and so noble and so wise and so honest that it was worth the sacrifice to hamina, hamina, hamina?
No. No, don't have relationships where you can't be honest.
I mean, that's a tautology, because you can't have a relationship if you're not honest.
The only thing that you can be if you're not honest in a relationship is exploit it.
Or being an exploiter, but of course, no child can ever be the exploiter of the parent.
That's just not the way the power rolls, right?
But yeah, don't settle for self-sacrifice.
In the end result, it just doesn't aid anybody.
Well, I shouldn't say that.
I mean, it aids people's errors in the short run.
It's not about religion fundamentally.
It's not about anarchism fundamentally.
I genuinely believe that you can have some emotional connection with your parents without those topics being resolved, at least in the short run.
But you can have that connection.
If you can at least talk about your thoughts and feelings in the relationship.
Right? That's the important thing.
Everything else may or may not come out of that.
If that's not present, nothing else is going to work.
If that is present, who knows what else is possible?
You know, if your mom has a real relationship with you, she might be a little bit less satisfied with her imaginary friends, right?
If she gets that real connection with you, then she will compare that in her heart of hearts to...
Boyfriend, buddy Jesus, right?
Who doesn't exist.
And she'll go, well, I now know the difference between a real relationship and imaginary relationship.
Right? So it is through connection that we change people.
It is through connection that we change people.
It is not through arguments.
Like, the arguments are the effect of the relationship.
Without the relationship, you can't change anybody.
Right? I mean, this is why I try to be as honest as I can, right?
Sometimes in the shows I'm like, oh man, we're going too far, too much information, too much honesty, and I'm like, fuck no.
People are honest with me, you're honest with me in this call.
I mean, the least I can do is that, but I also recognize it is only, only, only through the connection with people.
Only through a genuine, real, intimate, honest and open connection with people.
That the world can be saved.
Because we're asking people to give up bullshit, illusory relationships.
Like people think they have a relationship with their fucking government.
What nonsense. People think they have a relationship with their deities.
What nonsense. People think that they have a relationship with their culture.
Or their class. None of these things exist.
They're all fantasies.
How do you get people to give up fantasy relationships with real relationships?
And that's why I wrote a book about relationships right after I wrote a book about ethics.
Because it is only through real plug socket in the wall 220 volts connection with people that we can displace relationships The illusory and bullshit and empty and imagined and narcissistic and manipulated relationships that people have with imaginary entities like states and gods and classes and culture and competition with others and sports fucking teams and all that bullshit that people think has anything to do with relatedness.
I think of a row of guys just sitting there watching a stupid assed Football game on television on Thanksgiving afternoon.
That is not having a relationship.
That is watching steroided retards run down a pitch paid for by your children's tax dollars and cheering.
I mean, it's mad.
But you can't talk people out of bad relationships or non-existent relationships, fantasy relationships.
You can't talk them out of that.
Because those relationships are based entirely on language.
God loves me. Well, that's easy, right?
And that's why your mom uses that.
Because God loves me is the drug, right?
But if she gets a real connection and real and genuine love with you, her desire for God's imaginary love will dry up and blow away.
Completely. So it is all about the connection.
It's what... Ian Foster was talking about, he's a writer, about a little over 100 years ago.
He wrote The Room of the View and Howard's End and other books.
He said, only connect, only connect, only connect, connect with each other, connect with each other, connect with each other.
And that's how philosophy works.
Right? Bad money drives out good.
Good money, in fact, drives out bad.
Good relationships, honest and open and true relationships, dissolve, dry up, and blow away manipulative, empty, useless, and exploitive relationships, non-existent relationships.
And so the best way to get your parents to give up the state and to give up their gods and delusions is to give them something better.
I'm not saying they're going to take it, because that's a choice everybody has to make.
Do I want to live in delusion or do I want to live in reality?
Do I want to live in fantasy or do I want to live in connection with people?
Do I want to lie for a living or do I want to tell the truth and be connected with the people that I love?
Nobody knows. I think we have an idea, but nobody knows for sure what's going to happen when somebody's actually presented with that decision.
But that's all there is.
That's all there is.
To heal the world is honesty and connection with other people.
If you can provide that to your parents, if you can provide that to your lovers, if you can provide that to your friends, some will say yes, and some will say no.
The people who've said no, you know what I think of that.
But the people who say yes, well, they join us towards this better world.
They are this better world.
They are the reality of this better world.
But we can only provide people something better.
What they have. They may hate it, they may retreat back to delusion, but it is the honesty and the connectivity and the openness and the vulnerability that we bring to the table that is going to get other people to throw away these narcotizing opiates of illusions and delusions and fantasy relationships.
And sit down at the table with us in this little green line table we call reality, which is the only place we can actually connect and the only place where truth is.
That's it for my speech. I know that what I'm going to have to do going forward is to just be honest with them.
To get closure one way or another.
I'm currently unemployed, unfortunately, so at least my thought right now was that I was going to wait until I had a job and then got into therapy to really dig deep and make the final push towards, like, let's just figure this out so I can stop feeling like crap.
And that may still be a wise thing.
Look, that may be a perfectly wise decision, right?
I mean, the important thing is not to be a slave to anything.
Not philosophy, not you've got to do it now.
I mean, you have your own judgment in these matters.
You should respect your own judgment in these matters.
If it's prudent, if it's wise to wait until you've got a therapist, which I think it is, fantastic.
If it's prudent and wise to wait until you have a job, I think that's fantastic.
But there's no... Don't be driven by any absolutes.
The important thing is that it is your decision, your decision, your decision at all times.
Not mine, not philosophies, not anybody else's, not your therapist, not Yahweh's, not any leprechauns.
It's your decision about when you're going to do it.
And there's so much that you can do in terms of a relationship with yourself that it doesn't fundamentally matter when you talk about things with your parents.
Because you'll know when the right time is.
But you need to keep working on your relationship with yourself.
So that you have the feelings that will help you through this.
And so, yeah, I mean, but don't feel like out of this convo that you have to do it now.
I mean, the whole point is that you're free to do it when it's right for you.
You're free to never do it. If you find a way to live with it and feel happy, you don't ever have to.
This is just my arguments. They're not...
You know, this is not empirical scientific truth.
This is just, I genuinely believe that true relationships drive out false relationships, and that's the best way to change people.
But that's just my argument. That's not any kind of, certainly not written in stone.
I think everything you're saying is making sense to me.
And happiness is certainly my goal, and everything else is open-ended in order to achieve that goal, as far as I'm concerned.
Good. But I think that's wise.
I think that's wise. And tell me, because, I mean, we had a long chat, and before we sign off, I just wanted to sort of check in with you about your...
How do you feel at the moment towards the end of what we're talking about?
Um... I've actually, like I said, I feel like I've been focusing on the logic and the arguments, and I felt the strongest emotions at the beginning.
For much of this, after maybe starting when we had the back and forth where I pretended to be my mom, sometime around the end of that maybe is when I, the emotions, I haven't felt all that strongly.
And I'm not feeling very strong, any kind of emotion right now.
Which in some ways may be an improvement.
I mean, because you were feeling really tense and stressed at the beginning, right?
Yeah. Do you still feel that you said you felt your head hurts and you felt tightness in your chest and your neck?
Yeah, it's like all those things are still there just to a lesser degree, to a significantly lesser degree.
Right, right.
Just kind of lingering. Right, right.
And just feedback on the call itself.
I mean, was there things we could have focused on more or less or what would have been better or worse for you if anything pops into mind?
I'm not really sure.
Sure.
I came into the conversation not really being sure what we were going to focus on, kind of worried about holding up my end of the bargain, so to speak, as far as being able to provide a good conversation for you.
Well, because remember, the whole point is that you're not here to provide a good conversation for me, right?
Yeah. That's too much about being helpful and serviceable to others.
You're just here to be yourself and to be honest, right?
Yeah. Here I am trying to be your grease or whatever.
Yeah, I hope that I put on a good show.
Well, this isn't a show, right? Yeah.
I'm looking forward very much to listening to it, though.
I feel like we went over a lot of things that I have thought about, but I think it's more confirming of some of my thoughts and Feelings.
And you even went over some stuff that I don't think I thought of before that I'm looking forward to listening to it.
All right. Well, I will say this, that your ears and your ums are mostly gone.
And I certainly feel like it's a little bit less like pulling teeth to have a conversation with you.
So you seem to me to be more relaxed.
Again, you may or may not experience that, but that's just my feedback.
Yeah. Yeah, I was feeling totally blocked at the beginning and kind of panicky about it, and that was making it worse, and I feel much more relaxed.
All right. All right.
Okay, well, I guess keep me posted if you can, and I will certainly give you a chance to listen to this, and you can let me know if it's okay for the screen.
All right. Thanks.
All right. Thanks, man. Have a great night.
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