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Aug. 22, 2010 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:57:16

1729 Freedomain Radio Sunday Show August 22 2010

The shame of sexual abuse, firefighting in a free society, and a gay son with Christian parents...

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	Hello, everybody.
	It is August the 22nd, 2010, just after 4pm.
	And thank you, everybody, so much for joining us.
	We have, I guess, one of the highest number of people in the chatroom.
	And that's fantastic.
	And thank you, everybody, for donators and subscribers this month.
	It's always welcome.
	I'm not getting paid to go to Philly for a speech.
	I have to sort of take that out of FDR income, so anything that people can do to help support that.
	I would really, really, really appreciate that.
	So thank you so much for that. We have people who want to talk, so there's not much point in me talking at the moment.
	So if you have a question or a comment or a criticism of anything to do with philosophy or my haircut, then...
	Oh yeah, last plug for the barbecue.
	There is going to be a barbecue, and we are going to be barbecuing, I think...
	Three randomly selected listeners from whoever shows up, so it's going to be very exciting.
	It's sort of a marinara Russian roulette that will be going on, so of course that should be very exciting for everyone.
	You can go to Amiando.com, FDR2010, is that right?
	And you can sign up there.
	You really need to let us know because we've ordered the tables and the chairs and we're ordering up the food.
	So yeah, you need to be ordering the food tomorrow and it's free to come by and we will be, well obviously it's eight kidney per person as you leave, but to come in is completely free.
	So we have a quite staggering number of people coming.
	Somewhere between 60 and 70 people will be showing up.
	And that's assuming that a number of people don't show up from here, sign up from here.
	So please, if you can, let us know so we get the right amount of food, because otherwise it's just going to be Carb anarchy.
	All of our theories about peaceful and voluntary interactions are absolutely dependent upon people not eating each other in cannibalism.
	In cannibal mode, it would really throw a dent, I think, into the old voluntary theory were that to come down.
	So we need to write numbers so we can get...
	Yeah, this is the last year we'll be able to do it at our house.
	Next year, it'll probably be 100 to 150 people, so we're going to have it at your house.
	Just let us know where you live and we will show up with very little warming.
	So, yeah, there's gonna be some veggie stuff.
	I don't know about gluten-free. But there'll definitely be veggie.
	There'll be some meat. But the meat will be mostly scattered around the woods in the form of rabbits.
	But we will be giving you hunting equipment.
	So I hope that you'll be able to come.
	We're also going to have karaoke in the evening.
	There is movement for a trip to Canada's Wonderland, which if you really enjoy throwing up a little bit in your mouth, I would highly recommend.
	And so I hope that you'll be able to make it.
	It is... Yeah, it is...
	Oh yeah, we'll look into gluten-free.
	Event organizers are simply giving me that information through Skywriting.
	So it is September the 4th.
	2010 and I hope that you will be able to come.
	I absolutely, we love meeting listeners.
	The listeners who come through to town that we meet up with, it's always a genuine, genuine pleasure.
	So you are the best people on the planet without a doubt and so we absolutely welcome you to our home and we're really looking forward to meeting you and feeding you as our way of saying thank you, thank you, thank you for all of your support.
	We look forward to this every year.
	I begin dreaming about it in February.
	So I can't wait for it to come.
	And it's pretty close. So I hope that you will make it.
	It's two weeks away. Oh yeah, James, if you want to talk about group rates, that would be fantastic.
	Yep, this is just a quick shout-out about group rates.
	They're still available.
	It looks like hotel's been pretty good with availability.
	Dependent upon availability, you can get these rates up until the 31st of August, but I would encourage you, if you're interested and you're coming, and you haven't already booked a hotel at this point, to just drop me a line.
	You can find the thread on the board in the general information section.
	And yep, that's it. That's all I got to say about that.
	Oh, yeah. And it's at the moment 65 Canadian plus tax.
	So that's not bad for this time of year for this kind of rate, for the kind of numbers we're getting.
	All right. So thanks for the reminder.
	That's it for the barbecue.
	Hope to see you there. So far, we believe that the amount of chickens we've slaughtered in weird ways should guarantee us fairly good weather.
	But we'll, of course, continue to feed them into the blender.
	Alright, so we have had people waiting on the line.
	Sorry for that minor bit of technical business, but please speak up.
	I am all ears. Hi.
	I had a question about being embarrassed when I see awkward moments on TV. Like whenever I see two people interacting and they appear, or at least one of them appears awkward or acting through their false self.
	I get embarrassed and sorry to watch.
	I was wondering how can I maybe not control them, those emotions, but better deal with them or at least not be so overwhelmed by them?
	Boy, you must really not like the Big Bang Theory that way, right?
	What do you mean? Can you think of shows in particular or instances in particular that...
	Yeah, like reality shows, like where two people are, like say a guy that always laughs a lot and laughs at everyone's jokes but doesn't have anything of substance to say, and the person you're stuck into notices that, when they see that, it makes me feel awkward.
	Or like just two people who don't get along and they're really fortunate to be friendly.
	or even just someone who gets embarrassed.
	Right, right.
	And how would you say that your own social comfort level is?
	Like how outgoing or introverted I am?
	Well, I wouldn't put it quite like that exactly, but...
	If you have to meet a bunch of new people, how comfortable do you feel with your ability to interact with them in a fairly comfortable way?
	Pretty uncomfortable. Right.
	And as you know, I think that usually the best place to look is in childhood.
	That's not the only place, but it definitely is the first place to look.
	When you were a kid, How socially comfortable were your parents?
	Well, one of them is really outgoing, but the other is he seems like he's comfortable, but I've noticed recently that he's actually just kind of acting like always acting like a false self and laughing at everything and having nothing of substance or no opinion to say.
	Now, outgoing doesn't necessarily mean socially comfortable.
	When I was younger, I used to believe that introverted was low self-esteem and extroverted was high self-esteem.
	I've since not accepted that as a thesis anymore.
	I think that extroverted can mask even lower self-esteem than introverted.
	In the same way that a guy who's shy, I think, oh, a guy who's shy around women, he's low self-esteem, but the guy who's like a player, you know, who's like, how you doing?
	You know, he's high self-esteem.
	I don't believe that anymore, but it's something that I used to believe.
	So, do you think that it's possible that the parent, I think you said, I think you implied that it was your father, that he's outgoing?
	Did you think that means social comfort, or is it something else?
	Um... I guess now I mean that it's socially practiced.
	Like they know how to talk.
	At least do small talk anyways.
	And like they know how to engage themselves in a conversation.
	Right. Even if they don't have any...
	Sorry, go ahead. Even if they don't have much to say, they can create that generic language filler that people use to while away bus rides and plane rides and, oh, where are you from?
	Oh, what do you do? Oh, how's the weather out there?
	Oh, I visited there once.
	Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
	Yeah, yeah, okay. Now, why do you think...
	That socially awkward moments occur.
	What's your theory as to what's happening when these kinds of things show up?
	Like maybe the person is trying to hide himself and like when he sees other people that see through that facade, he feels vulnerable.
	Okay, I think that's very interesting.
	Tell me a little more about that.
	I feel like some people, they don't be themselves or they act through a false self and not act through their true self.
	So when that mask is eroded, they feel uncomfortable what to say or they don't want to offend anyone.
	So they're always... We're always trying to appease everyone and make sure everyone likes something.
	Things like that. Right, right.
	I think that's very interesting.
	I think you're onto something there.
	I think that's a very good observation.
	So let me just paraphrase to make sure that I understand it and correct me where I'm wrong.
	So you believe that A lot of people, or some people, have a false self, and they have a practiced way of interacting with people.
	And when other people react in more authentic or honest ways, the manipulators, in a sense, become awkward because their false self is sort of revealed.
	Is that what you mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly.
	Do you see a lot of that on reality TV? Yeah.
	I don't watch reality TV, so I think I've seen one or two Jersey Shores.
	I think that's about it. It's not any snobbishness.
	I just have never really gotten around to getting into it.
	But can you give me an example of how that might happen in reality TV? Well, it happens with commentators, too.
	Like these play-by-play analysts, like the reporters.
	And they always have this...
	I don't know what it's called. It's like an act or this speech they have going where they're always very positive but never of any substance or anything.
	But anyways, I'd say that they're talking and it feels like they're always angry or they're frustrated or they want to say something.
	But because they can't, because they're just normal sports commentators and they only do reports, I feel like they're always...
	Like, jiving at each other.
	Like, any time they can express themselves through, like, a small, subversive sentence.
	Like, the commentators, they always laugh forcefully.
	Yeah, it's kind of false, right?
	Yeah, I think I understand what you mean.
	It's like really hearty, like a cliché Ted Danson kind of, blah, blah, blah, right?
	It's all kind of fake.
	Okay, so let me ask you another question then, just to make sure I understand where you're coming from.
	If you feel this anxiety when you see this awkwardness in people who interact in TV badly, what is the next thing that you're afraid is going to happen?
	That they will...
	For the people on TV or for the situation that's happening?
	Yeah, for the people on TV. So I'll just tell you what I mean, right?
	So somebody posted a clip from American Psycho.
	I don't know if you've ever seen the film, but the character is...
	I think his name is.
	He's talking about Genesis, I think, or some musical group.
	And he's preparing himself to kill a guy.
	And the audience knows this, but the guy who's in his apartment doesn't know this.
	And so we feel this anxiety and this terror and this dreamlike, like the guy's not doing anything because he doesn't see what's coming, but we know what's coming.
	And so we feel anxiety in that scene because we know that the next thing is a brutal killing, right?
	And anytime this character who's a murderer, anytime he interacts with anyone, we feel this anxiety because we've watched these murders that no one else has.
	So we feel this anxiety because he's going to kill some guy next, right?
	So I'm not sort of saying that murder is about to occur, but what I'm saying is that we feel anxiety when we feel that something is going to come that's going to be bad, right?
	So when these characters interact in this awkward way, clearly there's nothing particularly threatening about the awkwardness, but what comes after the awkwardness that is making you feel anxious?
	Kind of a hostility.
	When the other person notices the false self, they kind of attack it.
	Okay, so after the awkwardness comes the attack.
	Mm-hmm. Not a super aggressive attack, just like a mocking attack.
	Did you ever experience that as a child?
	Um... I probably did, but in the moment I can't recall.
	But if I think about it hard, I probably have experienced those moments.
	And have you experienced that as an adult at all?
	Let me think.
	No, no.
	Okay.
	And have you ever inflicted those kinds of attacks on other people?
	No. I don't think you're being very honest with me.
	I don't mean that you're lying.
	I just don't think that you're being very honest with me.
	Or maybe you're not being honest with yourself.
	Because if you have this anxiety around awkward social interactions because of a fear of attack, you understand that's hardwired within you because you don't know why it's occurring.
	Now, if you have an anxiety about an attack that is hardwired within you and you've never experienced that or you can't think of anything, then it doesn't make any sense, right?
	Yeah, it does, but I mean, I just meant that I couldn't think of any moments, particularly in my childhood, that I experienced it, but I did admit that I definitely did experience it.
	I mean, I did experience abuse when I was a child, so maybe that transferred into one of my adults, so I project that past experience onto all my future interactions.
	Right. Now, and I appreciate you saying that.
	When you say that you experienced abuse as a child, what are you talking about?
	What do you mean? I was at sexual abuse when I was a child.
	Oh my god, I'm so sorry.
	Oh, I'm so sorry.
	Oh, how terrible. Oh, how terrible.
	How terrible. Right.
	Right. Do you want to talk more about that, or would you like to hear how I think it might connect with this awkwardness?
	I think I'd like to hear about how it connects with the awkwardness.
	Right. Well, you had...
	Sorry, let me ask you this.
	When you experienced sexual abuse as a child, was this something that you sort of found out later, or was this something that you were aware of while you were a child?
	I was made aware later because the guy got caught and convicted and all that.
	And do you know how old you were when this occurred?
	Four. Four.
	And did you remember it at all, or do you remember the after effects of it at all?
	I block it out, but I'm going to therapy to unfog it.
	Sorry, when you say that you block it out, do you mean that you have memories that you repress or you don't remember it at all?
	I mean, I have memories that I repressed.
	Right. Oh, I'm so sorry.
	My God, that's just unbelievably hideous.
	So I just wanted to just pause and, you know, throw my arms, throw my electronic arms around you as best I can just to say that is unbelievably vile what you experienced.
	I have huge sympathy.
	What a terrible, terrible occurrence.
	And I just, first of all, wanted to just pour my heart out in sympathy for that because that is just beyond rest to experience.
	So, one of the things that I believe, you understand this is all just my opinion, right?
	But one of the things that I believe when we experience abuse as children is that we carry a secret that separates us from everyone else.
	Do you know what I mean when I say that?
	No. It's a secret.
	Well, the secret is you can't talk about this, right?
	The secret is you can't talk about what happened to you when you were a kid.
	You certainly can't talk about it with other kids, right?
	Like you can't say, I was molested.
	You probably don't even have the language for it when you were a kid, right?
	My daughter, I don't know if you heard at the beginning of the show, she loves to talk about everything that happened to her.
	So we go to the mall.
	We went to a mall where they have this incredible pet store.
	They had ferrets and dogs and cats and a giant $3,000 bird and all this sort of stuff.
	And she talks about it all the time.
	The other night, she got her foot stuck in the wooden bars of her crib.
	And this was four o'clock in the morning.
	My wife heard her.
	I didn't, because I'm not a good parent at night.
	I don't hear a damn thing.
	And my wife tried to extricate Isabella's foot, but was unable to, so she came and woke me up, and then I managed to get Isabella's foot out from between the bars of the...
	And for two or three days, she talked about that all the time.
	You know, stuck, cry, data fix, you know, all of that.
	So she talks about everything.
	All of her experience is converted into conversation.
	But this experience that you had of sexual abuse cannot be converted into conversation, right?
	So, like, I feel like I'm always hiding something.
	Well, I assume that you didn't talk about it casually, you know, like, hey, we went to the zoo yesterday, and I got molested, right?
	Yes. Right?
	You can do the first part, not so much the second, right?
	And yet, obviously, it is a dark and powerful and hideous experience, right?
	And so much more powerful than, infinitely more powerful than my daughter getting her foot stuck in the bed, right?
	So you've had this crazy, hideous, dark experience which you can't talk about, right?
	Yeah. And so you can't honestly express your experience as children love to do.
	You can't honestly express your genuine and horrific experience of molestation to those around you, right?
	Wait, I'm not sure that you're agreeing with me or just acknowledging that I've said something.
	I don't want to go off track if I'm not describing something that's accurate.
	No, I do agree.
	Sorry. Right, right.
	And this is probably true all the way through as an adult, right?
	Right. Yeah.
	Like I can't express myself in that way?
	Or like it's become a habit and not express myself?
	You know, if you're in a job interview, right, and people say, you know, what are your strengths and weaknesses?
	And you say, well, my strength is I work too hard and I'm a perfectionist and all the nonsense that people say.
	My weakness is that sometimes I have trouble asserting my authority because I was sexually molested as a child.
	You can't say that, right?
	I can't say that, no.
	You can't. In fact, you probably have to know someone pretty damn well before they ever find that out about you, right?
	Yes. Present company accepted, right?
	But you know what I mean, right? Yes.
	And so you're clear...
	This is what is so fucked up about abusing children.
	It's one of the many things that is so messed up about abusing children, is that it shatters...
	The clear lines of communication between their experience and those around them.
	It puts a huge freaking dam on the natural river and flow of conversation that children It stops up children's self-expression.
	And it makes children self-conscious.
	And it makes children guarded.
	And it makes children have to make up themselves rather than be themselves.
	Because there's so much that they can't talk about.
	Yeah. Does that make any sense?
	Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
	I don't want to do the whole conversation, but tell me what you're thinking and feeling about what we're talking about here.
	That I couldn't express myself about what happened back then, so it's become a habit of not expressing myself about maybe embarrassing or any situations that I perceive as negative and that I can't express that.
	It's become a habit to not express that because of that experience.
	Right. That is what I'm saying.
	That's half of what I'm saying. And it's interesting, the half that you picked up on, right?
	So you said that what I'm saying is that you don't express yourself.
	But that's not true, because in this life, you have to express yourself, right?
	So you can't talk about the truth of your experience.
	You can't talk about the reality of what has happened to you.
	But you still have to talk, right?
	Right. Because you can't be the mute kid in the playground, right?
	Yeah. So, when you can't...
	Sorry, go ahead. Well, people can get by by not talking, or they can get by by not expressing themselves.
	But you did as a kid.
	I assume you had conversations with people, right?
	Yeah, yeah. Right, so we're not talking about other people, we're talking about you.
	That there was something very powerful that you couldn't talk about.
	Yeah. Which, I mean, people as adults spend years dealing with a single incidence of sexual abuse.
	In therapy, they will spend years processing it.
	As children, they can spend years processing it.
	But you couldn't talk about it with your peers.
	I don't know, did you go to a therapist when you were a kid?
	Yes. And did you have a chance...
	Sorry, go ahead. I don't remember the sessions.
	I remember the person, but I don't remember specifically what went on.
	Was this when you were sort of four or five?
	Yeah. Do you know how long you...
	I think it was about 29 sessions.
	Right. And did you talk about this assault, this sexual assault with your parents?
	Was that an open thing that you could talk about with your parents?
	No, it wasn't open.
	They just told me that a very bad thing happened to me, and yeah, that's it.
	Right, so you had a professional who, it's tough when you're four or five years old to talk to a stranger about your deepest feelings, obviously.
	It's tough even when you're 30 or 40 years old.
	So this wasn't something that was part of a continual conversation with your parents which allowed you to process, right?
	Right. Right, right.
	Right. My daughter needs three or four days to process getting her foot stuck in the bed, which she was uncomfortable for a few minutes and nothing bad happened.
	So I can't imagine how much time it would take to process something like a sexual attack when you're four, but it would be a hell of a long time, right?
	Yeah. So, this is, I think we're getting someplace useful, and I appreciate your patience, and I also appreciate your honesty.
	It is a very, very tough thing to talk about, and I really, really appreciate you bringing this up.
	I don't know if you're in the chat room, but people are talking about how useful this conversation is, so thank you, thank you for that.
	So, you have to fake it, basically.
	Socially, you have to fake it, because you can't talk about it.
	What is actually happening?
	What is actually important?
	What is actually in your mind?
	You can't talk about it. But you still have to talk.
	And so you have to fake it, right?
	I feel like I'm talking to Bigfoot.
	Bigfoot fake. Bigfoot not be socially real.
	But you know what I mean, right?
	Yes. So, that's pretty awkward.
	That's a hard thing to do, right?
	Yeah. To break out of that habit of faking it?
	Right. No, no.
	It's hard to fake it. But it's interesting, it is hard to break out of the habit of faking it.
	But it's hard... It's hard to fake it.
	Like, emotionally, it's hard to yourself.
	Yeah, like it's... It's hard, like, if you're on a first date and you've got a toothache, and you don't want to tell your date that you have a toothache, it's kind of hard to be suave, right?
	Mm-hmm. Does that sort of make any sense?
	Yeah. Like, you have something you want to, it changes your behavior in a way that you can't control, or at least with a toothache situation.
	Right. Right, and what pops into my head is that I was once doing a presentation in the business world.
	I was doing a presentation. It was a fairly important presentation, but not hugely, hugely important.
	And, you know, you're just walking around today, and you've got a bit of gas, right?
	And you're like, oh, I'm a little uncomfortable, so I'm just going to fart, right?
	Now, 999 times out of 1,000, you just have a little fart.
	But every now and then, your body will give you a little extra gift with that part, right?
	And It's somewhere between a bad fart and shitting your pants is what I experienced.
	So I was doing this presentation and I got the, you know, the fart and a gift experience.
	And I had to finish the presentation.
	I literally could not say to those people I was giving the presentation to, I'm sorry, I think I might have just shit my pants.
	I need to go and clean up and come back, right?
	I couldn't do it. I had to finish off the presentation.
	Right? And it's hard.
	Now, fortunately, my childhood had prepared me for that very well.
	I remember talking about it with my therapist, and she said, your childhood prepared you very well for that moment.
	And it's like, yeah, it did.
	Right? Because, you know, abuse is like shitting your pants.
	You kind of just got to keep going, right?
	And pretend that everything's okay, but you've got a totally split focus, right?
	Right? Part of you is like, how far down my leg is this far going to go, right?
	Will it be obtrusive if I tuck my pants into my socks so that I don't end up leaving a trail like a snail or something, right?
	Anyway, enough about my embarrassing moment in business.
	One of many, I'm sure.
	But it's a messed up thing to do, right?
	Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
	I see what you're saying. And so when you're watching TV and you see people who are having to fake it or people who aren't being authentic running out of steam, running out of the game, I think it awakens for you what you had to do for years and years as a kid.
	That you had to keep these spinning plates of pretending to talk about stuff that was less important to you than what was really going on for you.
	It's hard. It's really, really hard to do.
	And it's a lot of work.
	And it's like you're managing yourself rather than being yourself.
	Or like you're managing the interaction rather than simply being real in the interaction.
	Yep. I don't want to talk about myself much more or any more, but just very briefly, right, because I had such a messed up childhood, there'd always come this moment when I'd be dating someone or whatever, and they'd say, so tell me about your family, right?
	And that was an uncomfortable moment.
	So when you have this secret that distances yourself from people, that distances you from yourself, then you end up, you know, if you get sexually abused on Sunday if you get sexually abused on Sunday and people say in the schoolyard, how was your weekend?
	What are you going to say?
	Painful. Scary.
	Terrifying. Horrible.
	Right? You can't.
	So you have to just make some shit up, right?
	Yes. And then you have to keep doing that.
	And also at home, you probably really wanted to talk about it with your parents.
	And if that wasn't a topic that was allowable, and you're saying that it wasn't, and I believe you, then you kind of have to fake it there too, right?
	Yeah.
	And so when you see people who's faking it isn't working, I think that creates a lot of anxiety in you for reasons that completely make sense to me.
	So when do you think, will these feelings of anxiety when I see these moments, will I be able to...
	If I deal with myself and I gain more self-knowledge and I learn about my childhood and how to express myself better...
	will these moments of anxiety not be so overwhelming, do you think?
	I think so.
	I'm going to give you like a A minute-long speech on how I think you can approach this.
	Now, obviously, I'm no therapist.
	You should talk about this with a therapist.
	This is just my idiot opinions, right?
	But they may be of some use. They certainly work for me.
	When you are a victim, when you are a victim, and I'm not blaming your parents here because I don't know enough about the details.
	It's not that I'm not okay with blaming parents, but I will say this.
	I've never talked to anyone who's experienced sexual abuse who was able to talk about it with his parents or her parents afterwards.
	And so the lack of connectivity with your parents seems to be a prerequisite for this kind of predation.
	In other words, you have to not have a close and open and honest relationship with your parents in order to be Targeted for this kind of abuse.
	Like the predators never target children who have that close a relationship with their parents.
	Why? Because those children will go immediately to their parents or they know this, right?
	They know this in the same way that a tiger attacks a gazelle and not a lion, right?
	So I just sort of wanted to point that out.
	The victimization is multi-layered and this is why it's so important for parents to have an open and honest and intimate relationship with their children.
	Now let's talk about street-proof your kids.
	Well, the best way to street-proof your kids is to have a completely open and honest relationship.
	Respectful and peaceful relationship with your children.
	That is the best way. Because then, everybody who's a predator will see your children's confidence and ease of interacting and ease with themselves.
	And they won't see a lonely, isolated, emotionally stunted and sickly child separated from the herd.
	Right? So, I just say that there's, in my opinion, there's multiple layers to this victimization.
	But I think the most important thing to do, and this is something that was the hardest thing for me to do, the hardest thing for me to do was to reject, was to reject any moral or social ownership for my victimization.
	For my victimization.
	So I used to be ashamed if people would ask me about my family or my childhood.
	I would feel ashamed, like I had done something wrong.
	Like, well, I did this, you know, my mom used to beat up on me and there used to be all these problems and she was violent and screaming and throwing things and blah, blah, blah, right?
	Or my brother used to, you know, continually mock and tease and mentally torture me and he was violent sometimes too.
	And I would feel like...
	Like, I had chosen a bad family because I was a bad person.
	I would internalize that.
	That victimization.
	And say, well, I must, you know, this is what kids always do.
	I must have done something wrong.
	Right? So, my suggestion.
	My suggestion is BFL. That was my phrase.
	You know, BFL. Bad fucking luck.
	Bad, bad, bad luck.
	You know, some people say, well, how was your childhood?
	Well, I gotta tell you, I was really unlucky.
	I was really, really unlucky.
	The family that I had was not a good family.
	And I was really, really unlucky.
	And I don't take moral ownership for bad luck.
	I don't. I don't take moral ownership for things I did not choose, for things that I had to survive, for things that I was not responsible for.
	Now, all the adults in the world want children to take responsibility, most of the adults in the world want children to take responsibility for being abused.
	Because the reality is that the abuse that I experienced occurred in an apartment building where everyone could hear it going on at all times.
	And nobody, not one of these noble and heroic adults, lifted a goddamn finger to help me in any way, shape, or form.
	Ever. My extended family knew it, on both sides of my mother and my father, and no one Did a damn thing about it.
	So the guilt for what I experienced as a child falls upon my family, obviously, and it falls upon everyone, teachers and priests and neighbors and extended family and everybody who knew about it, who didn't do a goddamn thing about it.
	I won't take a single scrap of guilt or shame For what society let happen to me as a whole.
	The guilt and the shame rests on society.
	I'm not going to take a single shred of it.
	I am not going to continue the abuse into adulthood where it's no longer necessary.
	I'm not going to continue the abuse into self-abuse, into thinking that there was something wrong with me.
	No. There's something wrong with my parents and there's something wrong with society as a whole that this happens.
	And it happens so often.
	And it happens in such plain sight.
	And people don't do much of a goddamn thing about it.
	So you, I think, feel this shame and this awkwardness and this anxiety around bad social interactions because at some level you're still taking ownership for what was inflicted upon you as a child.
	And if you continue to work on that, it is like shrugging off a hundred pound weight that's hanging off every hair on your body.
	It is just shrugging it off and saying, I'm not going to take responsibility for anything that happened to me as a child.
	You know, if I'm...
	I guess... I'm sorry, I know I'm over two minutes.
	I'll give you just one short metaphor and hopefully that will help, right?
	So let's say that I'm vacationing in some...
	I'm vacationing in Japan.
	No, I'm vacationing in...
	In Thailand. And I'm in a city, and I'm minding my own business and having a good time, and BAM! Some guys throw a black robe over my head, throw me in the back of a van, and drive me off to some communist hut.
	And in that communist hut, they say, you, Whitey, are an enemy of the people, and you, Whitey, are a capitalist spy.
	And I say, Whitey, I agree with, but everything else is not there.
	It's not true. And then they put a gun to my head and they say, you write down that you are an enemy of the people and a capitalist spy.
	You confess! And I say, okay, I will do that for you and I will be very, very convincing because I am, in fact, a capitalist spy and an enemy of the people.
	And I do that because I'm being threatened.
	Now, let's say they hold me there for another day or two, and then they dump me back in the city.
	Well, I'm not going to, for the rest of my life, feel guilty for being an enemy of the people and a capitalist spy.
	Because I only said all of that because I was under threat.
	I just said whatever I needed to say to get out of that crazy situation.
	Now, when we're in, when we have abusive histories, we end up saying to ourselves the equivalent, and it varies for every situation, we end up saying to ourselves, I am a capitalist spy and an enemy of the people, because that's what our abusers need us to say.
	We're bad, we're unlovable, we did wrong, we provoked, we were disobedient, whatever, right?
	But all that is, is signing a confession, because you have to, to get by.
	But I think it's really important to not spend the rest of your life believing in what you had to believe in the moment, believing for the rest of your life that that is who you are.
	Any more than if you're kidnapped and forced into confess that you are, you know, a transvestite from Alpha Centauri, you just say, hey, I'm a transvestite from Alpha Centauri.
	Here you go, let me go.
	But you don't then for the rest of your life keep checking your genitalia To see if it's switched back, right?
	Or wait for the spaceship to come from Alpha Centauri and take you home.
	And so the self-talk that we inherit from having been in difficult or abusive situations is something that we absolutely need to let go.
	We absolutely need to let go, to not take ownership, to not take responsibility for what happened as kids.
	Because that just happened to us.
	We just happened to survive and we happened to live in a society That doesn't do a whole lot to actually help children.
	I mean, when I'm at the mall or I'm at the library and I see a parent aggressing against or mistreating a child, I'm the only one who does anything.
	Everybody else is just taking 12 steps back or pretending nothing happens.
	But that's the reality, right? They're responsible.
	In some ways even more so than the abusive parent.
	So... I think that when you look at those social interactions on TV that are awkward, that make you feel bad, I think you just have to remind yourself that you didn't talk because nobody listened, except for your therapist, right?
	But you didn't talk. And so you had to fake it.
	That was all you could do.
	It doesn't mean anything about your soul or your identity or your virtue.
	It's just what you had to do to make it through.
	Let all of that stuff go.
	Don't own it for a second.
	It's just what you had to do to make it through.
	Okay. Yeah, it makes lots of sense.
	I got it from the last, I forgot which podcast this was, but I remember you speaking about this earlier, and I remember really connecting to it.
	Thanks for your thoughts.
	Really, really helpful, and I really appreciate all the work you do at FDR. It's really, I can't say it's changed my life yet, but it's definitely changed my perspective, and I hope it changes my life.
	I appreciate that. And thank you so much for talking so honestly about your experience.
	And again, I just so, so, so sorry.
	This should happen to no one ever on the planet.
	I'm so, so sorry that this occurred for you.
	And I absolutely applaud you going to work with a therapist about this.
	So, you know, good for you.
	And congratulations. A million amounts of praise and a million amount of sympathy.
	Thanks. Okay.
	Bye. Take care.
	All right. Do we have other people or did they all doze off?
	Hi, Steph. Can you hear me?
	I sure can. Okay.
	I have a question about something you said in one of your recent videos.
	You made a comment about how in the D.I. World Society, Noam Chomsky and the so-called anarcho-socialists, you don't really have a problem with them.
	You would be perfectly okay with them just sort of doing things their own way as long as they don't aggress against you and you don't aggress against them.
	And I had a question about that.
	Does that mean that basically in the DRL society you have different, like, camps?
	You know, you have sort of like, okay, you socialists over here and you capitalists over here, you know, like, as long as we all hurt each other.
	I don't think that that will happen in the long run.
	And I'll tell you why.
	Because socialism doesn't work.
	Socialism only works if you have a government to enforce it.
	Right? Like... Religion doesn't work.
	Religion only, quote, works when you have parental teacher and priest bullying and threat of ostracism against children to enforce it.
	And so, let's say that there's Ancapistan, which is like a capitalist place.
	Right next to it is Commutopia, which is completely communist.
	Well, of course the communist economy is going to fail almost immediately.
	It's going to fail almost immediately.
	Because, as of course Mises pointed out 90 years ago, there's no way to allocate resources because there's no price mechanism.
	There's no price mechanism in a communist or socialist economy.
	And so everything is going to get misallocated.
	Everything is going to get messed up.
	And their economy is going to collapse.
	And they're going to be reduced to penury and starvation within a few years.
	So, I mean, Russia and the Ukraine in particular was called the breadbasket of Europe because its lands were so fertile.
	Particularly in the production of bread.
	And yet within a few years of them becoming communist, people are starving to death because it just doesn't work.
	Same thing happened, of course, under the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.
	When they forced everyone out into the killing fields, the whole country began to starve to death.
	And then, of course, America and Canada would send wheat over to these places, would send bread over to these places, so that the people wouldn't starve to death, which never made a whole lot of sense to me.
	Like, there are bitter enemies, so let's feed them.
	Anyway, so the socialist or communist economies will almost immediately begin to collapse, and because it is a stateless society, people will simply bail out.
	People will choose life over ideology all the time.
	And so nobody's going to starve to death for the sake of...
	Pleasing, dear, overbearded daddy marks, right?
	They're just not going to do it.
	They're going to say, well, this shit didn't work, so let's stop doing it.
	And so I think people will continually try to set up, for a while, they will try to set up this commutopia, and it will almost immediately begin to collapse, and people will then just abandon it.
	So eventually people will get the hint and will stop doing it.
	But I think for a while, you know, people will continue to think that this is somehow a good idea.
	I think for a time that will happen.
	Well, I completely agree with everything you said.
	And I do believe that morality and what is practical basically go hand in hand.
	So like you said, socialism doesn't work because it's based on many fallacies.
	But the point that I was – what I was trying to get to… Was that for a while, basically, okay, let's look at this another way.
	Where I live, I'd say around 95% of people are Christians and religious people.
	Most of them probably believe that abortion is murder.
	So let's say in the DRO society, if I live, let's say, in my town, in my settlement, right, in the local area, and let's say my girlfriend has an abortion and they want to throw her in jail because they think that she committed murder.
	My only recourse basically is to move away, to find some place where atheists sort of live, you know, or more and more, where there's a much greater number of people who think the way I think who will defend me.
	Because ultimately, you know, if they outnumber me like 20 to 1, it really doesn't matter to them if I have DRO or not, because it's, you know, there's nobody there to say they can't just make me do what they say.
	So what I'm saying is people will just basically set up, you know, like people will sort of go to where other people live who believe what they believe.
	And, you know, that will be more separated.
	Like you're not going to, you can't really have in the same settlement, you know, say 75% communists and 425% capitalists.
	Right. Well, I see what you mean.
	Sorry, was there more that you wanted to say?
	I want to make sure I get your full question.
	No, no. Yeah, that was basically what I wanted to ask you about.
	Well, remember, I think you're still thinking in terms of collectives, right?
	So let's just throw aside the abortion thing for a sec, because that gets whole other layers of complexity, and we'll just talk about property rights.
	So DROs are going to work with individuals for the protection of property.
	And some people are going to have, they may have preferred different punishments, right?
	So some people may be sort of forgive and forget.
	You know, as long as I get my car back, I don't care about any further punishments for the guy.
	And other people may be more, you know, well, he's got to pay me back twice the value of the car and so on and so on, right?
	And so each contract is going to be individual and there will be a template for working between.
	So there'll be DROs and then there'll be Inter-DROs, whatever, IDROs or whatever, and they will work to smooth things out between the DROs, right?
	So you have different phone companies, and they all have different plans, and they all have different perks, and they all have different features and benefits and drawbacks.
	And then there's a technology which allows everybody to talk to each other.
	So they all exchange data between them, and there's a minimum common standard between them.
	And so... In a free society, there will be contracts with individuals and there will be a movement towards a common standard.
	There will be a movement towards a common standard because if you have a DRO that has 10,000 pages of really complicated rules, then your transaction fees between your DROs and other DROs are going to be like 500 times higher.
	So there will be a movement towards simple and clear and as universal as possible a set of rules for people interacting.
	Yeah, it has to.
	I mean, there will still be innovations, right?
	I think the best way to think about it is sort of like language, right?
	So I'm not going to invent my own language, obviously, because nobody would listen to my podcast.
	But I'm also going to try and extend and expand I'll introduce things like UPB or the argument for morality or the against me argument or whatever, even other sorts of words, so that there's a shortcut or a shorthand way.
	Of working with concepts.
	So I can't introduce my own language.
	I can work to try and extend it.
	But if nobody accepts my new language definitions, I have to just let them go.
	Because I'm just then talking to myself again.
	So there will be an evolution in rules and there will be a constant innovation in rules.
	But the bare minimum is always going to be focused on.
	The problem with governments, of course, is that there's no incentive to remove old laws or bad laws.
	Governments really like having lots of laws on the books.
	Because then they can threaten...
	Anyone with jail, right?
	They can threaten anyone to get them to do.
	You and I, I'm sure, have done something illegal that we have no idea about over the past 10 years, right?
	And so the governments really like having that because they can constantly use it to threaten people.
	I was watching a show. It's actually a good show, I think, called Damages.
	I was watching season three the other week.
	And the DA picked up this woman because her boyfriend was living with her on an expired visa.
	And so she was technically harboring an illegal alien.
	And so he, you know, so it's a completely made up crime, right?
	Right.
	Of course.
	Right.
	But they they got to pick her up and threaten her with that.
	Or, you know, you always see this in cop shows where the guy is uncooperative.
	He owns a bar and he's uncooperative.
	And they're like, well, we're going to check all your permits and we're going to get the health inspector down here.
	And then he's like, oh, OK, well, I'll tell you what you want to know.
	Just so that they can threaten people with all this crazy shit so that they can pretend that they're investigating rather than just shaking nonsense.
	So the DROs will constantly be working to whittle down and simplify because simple equals cheap.
	Simple equals cheap.
	And so there will be a constant movement to simplify and and all of that kind of stuff.
	Now, the thing about abortion is.
	It's very hard to talk to people about abortion without the religious element, right?
	So obviously we know that the religious element of abortion is that God creates a soul and puts it into the body at conception and then somehow magically splits it if they're twins, but nonetheless.
	So the reason that religious people are so hostile towards abortion is that They believe that there's a soul that you're killing.
	Now, we also know that the religious hostility to abortion is complete, utter and total bullshit.
	It's complete, utter and total bullshit because they will rail against abortion for reasons which we can get into another time, but they're entirely psychological and entirely hypocritical because you don't see Christians railing against the war in Iraq in the same way.
	In fact, Christian support for the war in Iraq was very high.
	So human life, right, the souls that God creates and puts into people who actually grow to adulthood seem to be utterly expendable to the vast majority of Christians, let alone other religious faiths.
	So I don't talk about, I'm not saying this is you, but I don't talk about abortion with people who are religious because if they don't understand their own craziness and irrationality and ridiculousness and contemptible hypocrisy in the realm of the protection of human life,
	But I do believe, I genuinely do believe that absent religion, People would care about abortion much, much less.
	So, for instance, abortion is considered far less problematic among secular people than it is among religious people.
	Now, everyone recognizes that abortion is a negative thing.
	Like, we would rather not have abortions.
	But the hysteria and craziness that goes on around abortion is almost exclusively driven by religious craziness.
	Or just religious.
	But I repeat myself, right?
	Right. So there will be rational solutions to abortion, mostly around prevention, right?
	So the reason that people have abortions is because they've been raised badly.
	That seems to be almost exclusively the case.
	Because somebody who's been raised well is going to have sex generally a little bit later, is going to be more responsible about sexuality.
	And there will, of course, be the occasions where the birth control fails and blah, blah, blah.
	But the prevalence of abortion will be much, much lower in a free society because we simply can't have a free society while God is sitting on the face of humanity and not in an enjoyable way.
	So we simply can't get to a free society while we still have fundamentalist irrationality.
	And this is true of the state, this is true of the family, this is true of religion.
	We simply can't get to a free society as long as people are fundamentally irrational.
	For reasons, again, we don't have to get into all of the complicated reasons as to why, but once we get to a free society, it will be because we have left religion behind, and we've left the fantasy of statism behind, which means that we will have left the automatic virtue of the family behind.
	Families can be virtuous like individuals can be virtuous, but there's nothing automatic about the virtue of the family.
	And so I know that this may sound like a dodge, but to me it's really important that in a free society, abortion will be much less of an issue for two reasons.
	One, it'll be far less prevalent than it is now.
	And two, because the debate about abortion will be far less charged by the insanity of religion.
	And so for those two reasons, I just don't think it's going to be a very big issue.
	Okay, um...
	Fine. Well, yeah, I pretty much agree with everything you said.
	It's just that I would like to add a couple of things really quick if you don't mind.
	Oh, please. Yeah. Okay.
	Well, first of all, I agree with the reasons that you said for abortion.
	You know, religious people believe there's a soul.
	You know, I've had these discussions with people.
	But I think that there's another reason why it's such a big deal, which is that religious people, especially religious leaders, instinctively feel that this is kind of like the weak spot.
	Even in secularism, there are a lot of people who sort of admit to this idea that abortionists kind of like...
	A little bit like murder.
	If you want a theocracy, you start by pressing on the weak spot where people are more likely to give in and say, yeah, maybe there's an argument.
	And another thing you said about the government, I think the governments often originate, when you look back in history, they start out as gangs.
	Eventually you have a king and you have a state and you have control over money and all that stuff.
	But it starts off as a horde or as a gang or as a basically...
	And my point is that people can organize into tyrannical groups without necessarily calling themselves a government.
	They become a government usually after some big bloody battle where they kill their enemies.
	But, you know, what about community organizers?
	What about people like Saul Alinsky and, you know, these...
	You know, I mean, people organize into large groups in order to initiate violence.
	You know, first, you know, they convince these masses like ACORN and the NWRO that they're entitled to other people's earnings and all that.
	My point is that if you find yourself surrounded by those people in a DRO society, your only recourse is to move away.
	No, no, no. Wait, wait, wait.
	You can't just pop these people into existence fully formed in a society, right?
	DROs are all about prevention, right?
	Okay. They're all about prevention.
	So, first of all, there will be very little demand for weaponry in a free society because there will be very few criminals.
	And why will there be very few criminals?
	Because a free society can only arise when parenting increases to the point where children grow up healthy and with self-confidence and with social skills and without trauma and without this bomb in the brain stuff which causes criminality.
	So for instance, with healthy parenting, about 99% of criminality would be eliminated.
	And nobody would want to run a government.
	People want to be in a government because they're powerless.
	They were raised as powerless people.
	They had no power as children.
	So there's this hysterical overcompensation where they demand infinite power over other people.
	To take a silly example or an extreme example, you can look at people like Stalin and Hitler and Mao who were terribly traumatized, abused and brutalized as children.
	And so they grew up with this thirst or this desire for power over other people because they were so dominated and rendered so powerless as children that there's this reaction formation that overtakes them.
	And because...
	It's not specific to them, but their whole cultures, right?
	So because... The Chinese and the Russians and the Germans in the first half of the 20th century were so incredibly brutalized and controlled as children that when someone comes along and screams at them to obey, they just automatically do that because that's how they've been raised.
	That's the way their brains have been built by the abusive parenting that they've experienced and abusive education and abusive priesthoods and so on, right?
	So in a free society, which we're only going to have when parenting improves to the point where children are raised rationally and peacefully, That society always reflects our earliest experiences.
	That the biggest things that occur in society are a direct mirror of our earliest experiences as children.
	I'm not going to say that's a proof.
	That's just an assertion which you can look more into my podcasts and books if you want more proof on that.
	So there'd be very little demand for weaponry.
	So if you get some gang arising, there would have to be a lot of bad parenting.
	There would have to be a lot of bad, abusive, brutal parenting for criminal gangs to start arising.
	And DROs know this. DROs will only exist in a society that fully understands the connection between parenting and criminality, between parenting and political or sociopathic power lust.
	And so because of that, You will have DROs whose primary focus will be the protection and care and encouragement of children and encouragement of great parenting practices.
	And there will be lots of research about what is the best parenting.
	There will be lots of schools that are continually focusing on how to build children to be or how to raise children to be as peaceful and as rational and as socially competent and economically competent as possible.
	And so that's going to be the focus of society is to make sure that the children are raised well because everyone will remember what happened when children are raised badly.
	And if you doubt me, just look into the change in parenting theories that occurred after the Second World War in Germany.
	After the Second World War in Germany, there was an incredible revolution in parenting because everybody got deep down that the Nazis came out of the crib.
	The Nazis came out of the incredibly hideous Child-raising practices of the Germans throughout their history.
	And they went from a very aggressive and brutal and abusive parenting style to, in some ways, an over-pacifistic.
	And as a result, you haven't had any more Nazis.
	In Germany, or at least not many, right?
	So in a free society where everybody is focused on raising children well, and there are agencies that can only make a profit if children are raised well, and I've got bits about this in my free book, Practical Anarchy, if you want more on this.
	You're not just going to have big criminal gangs popping out of nowhere heavily armed.
	There's going to be lots and lots of checks and balances ahead of time.
	And if people start to buy a whole bunch of weapons, there'll be flags that go up all over the system.
	And if people are abusing their children, which will be perfectly visible under brain scans, you can brain scan a child even now and you can see strong evidence of emotional or physical or sexual abuse.
	So you just get that scanned in the same way that That you would scan for other health problems and there would be intervention up front.
	So I just sort of wanted to point out that you can't just conjure in a sort of mini-state or a criminal gang in a free society because there'll be so much that is focused on preventing that from occurring that can be intervened ahead of time.
	Okay, Steph. Well, I think your argument is an argument from philosophy, not an argument from politics.
	Basically, I see your approach is basically to start philosophically, and that's really how change is going to come about.
	It's going to come about with changing the way people think, not by simply saying, let's have anarchy, but actually by talking about philosophical issues as you do.
	I really like that about you, that you focus on philosophy.
	But my whole point is that right now, I'm philosophically with you 100% of the way.
	My only disagreement or maybe the one thing that I'm uncertain about is just the political, but it's really secondary.
	I think whether you believe in a limited government or you believe in an anarchy, it really won't come about unless there's first a philosophical change and sort of the atmosphere, the cultural.
	Am I right? Is that what you're trying to say?
	Well, I wouldn't say that it's one or the other.
	To me, it's like saying, we're only going to walk forward if we use our left leg.
	No, if we just use your left leg, we're mostly going in a circle.
	So I think the way it happens, and I will try and keep this brief because we have other callers, is that we make commitments to raise our children in a non-violent way.
	When we raise our children in a non-violent way, Then philosophy is something that becomes possible for people.
	Because philosophy at the moment, and again, you can watch my Bomb and the Brain series for more on this, or you can read The Origins of War and Child Abuse, which is a book I read from another author.
	It's available for free on my website at freedomainradio.com.
	But when children are raised peacefully, the philosophy becomes possible because most philosophy, which I use the term very loosely, most philosophy now is ex post facto justifications for child abuse.
	So when you say to people, we should have a free society, Then they immediately feel that gangs are going to come along and slaughter everyone.
	In other words, they have an emotional association with freedom bringing anxiety and terror and imminent disaster.
	And that's not empirical.
	It's not empirical. Well, I got it. Yeah, good.
	I don't either, because I don't look...
	I mean, I'm just standing here in my study.
	I'm just opening the blinds and looking at my neighborhood.
	And there's one guy riding a bike down the street.
	There's some kids playing a little further up the street.
	And I don't believe that these people are rabid animals only restrained by the cops from coming and strangling me in my sleep.
	To me, if the government vanished...
	The guy would still be riding his bike, the children would still be playing, the roads would still be taken care of, and everything would be perfectly fine.
	But why do people have such an emotional reaction to the idea?
	That if authority is taken away, disaster occurs.
	Well, because that's what they were taught as children.
	They were told that they were bad children, they were told that they were aggressive, that they were selfish, and they were constantly bullied and prodded and poked and even encouraged to some degree by their parents to set aside their badness.
	In other words, it's only the presence of authority consistently inflicted that prevents people from attacking each other.
	That's the way that people are raised, by and large.
	Not everyone, but most people.
	And so statism is not a philosophy.
	Statism is a justification for childhood trauma.
	So if you say, "We as a society should not have an authority to tell us what to do in In fact, that makes everything worse.
	People don't hear anything about the government.
	What they hear is they hear your parents should not have aggressed against you in this way.
	But they can't handle that so they translate it back to the state and that's why people get so tense and emotional.
	They're not talking about the government, they're talking about their parents or their priests or their teachers or someone like that.
	So philosophy is not really available to people who've been traumatized assuming they haven't worked through that trauma because all they do is they emotionally react and then make up shit after the fact to explain it away.
	That's not philosophy. That's just ex post facto bullshit justifications.
	And so, when we raise children peacefully, they will be able to think clearly.
	You can't think clearly if you have masses of unprocessed trauma in your brain.
	That's a physiological fact.
	That's not even just my opinion.
	Because the amygdala storm that overwhelms the neofrontal cortex, our reasoning centers, messes up people's ability It's like trying to concentrate with 12 mandarin monkeys screaming in your ear.
	You simply can't do it. There's too much of an electrical storm in your brain when you have unprocessed trauma to be able to think clearly.
	So you can't philosophize if you don't have.
	If you have unprocessed trauma, you can't philosophize.
	And if you ever wonder the degree to which people have unprocessed trauma, just go to any of my videos or anyone's videos and scroll down through the comments section.
	And you can do this on newspaper sites or you can do this anywhere on Facebook.
	Just look at people's...
	Unbearably pathetic attempts at argument, which is it's all ad hominem and it's all hysterical and it's all aggressive or it's all a non sequitur or anything.
	People can't think and they can't think because they've been traumatized.
	If you ever wonder about the prevalence of childhood trauma, just go to any comment section anywhere on the web and read through it and there will be a few reasonable comments, but the vast majority...
	Maybe it's a self-selecting group, but it's still a pretty damn large one.
	So yeah, raise your children peacefully, then they'll be able to philosophize.
	When people are able to philosophize, they will extend that pacifism from the family to society as a whole.
	But I think it's a step-by-step.
	Both the pacifism in child raising and the resulting philosophy need to move each other forward.
	Okay, well, I think, you know, you pretty much say everything that is right.
	I just, I think there's more to it than that.
	But maybe I'll try to write about it and I'll make a video or something like that.
	I certainly look forward to that.
	And please send me a link when you do.
	All right, well, I'll talk to you later.
	All right, thanks, man. All right.
	I'm not even going to talk because I know I've been talking a lot.
	So if you're next up online, please go for it.
	Hi, Steph. Hello.
	Hello, how are you?
	I'm good, how are you doing? Yeah, not too bad.
	Right then, for my question.
	It's to do with debating.
	I work as a firefighter in the UK. I'm sorry, you work for where?
	For the fire service in the UK. Oh, right, right.
	And I got into an interesting debate last night with some of my colleagues at work.
	Can you just, sorry to interrupt you, can you just move the mic a little bit away?
	I'm getting a lot of hissing from your S's.
	A lot of sibilinth.
	Go ahead. No problem.
	Yeah, so we got into a little debate last night at work to do with the private sector and the public sector.
	At the moment, in the fire brigade over here, there's a lot of issues going on about, you know, there's a lot of pay cuts and freezes and, you know, they're trying to save a lot of money, as you're probably aware of.
	And my argument is that if the fire service, say, went from public sector to private sector, that it would work better.
	As is a lot of private companies do, obviously do a lot better than the public sector.
	I mean, would you agree with that, first of all?
	Because I don't want to get my sort of ideas incorrect, if you get mad.
	I find it very difficult to put my argument across to these people when I'm just getting two big heads just chucking things at me.
	I find it really difficult when it's sort of two versus one.
	Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?
	It's like a fang in my head against the wall and it's sort of, it's disappointing.
	I feel disappointed with myself sometimes when I'm having these debates and in my head after all the stuff that I've listened to and it makes clear sense to me, I'm really struggling to put it across.
	Well, let's do a little roleplay, right?
	So do you want to play one of your mates making the argument for the government running the fire department?
	And do you want me to play you?
	I won't do the accent because my accent plus your accent will be like some sort of space alien hand gibberish.
	But do you want to try that?
	Yeah, definitely. All right.
	So I say that the fire services should all be privatized.
	Right, and they're saying, well, if it's privatised, it's not going to work, is it?
	Who's going to be able to afford to run?
	What shareholder, for instance, would put money into a private fire service when it's not going to be as well run, is it, in terms of this little old lady down the road might not want to pay for that fire service?
	Who's going to pay for it? If she had a fire at a house, would you just drive past, like in the olden days when they used to have plaques on the doors, Would the fire engine just drive past and let that woman die?
	How would you deal with that? What do you mean how would I deal with it?
	I would say, well, what do you mean how would I deal with it?
	I don't know. But it doesn't matter.
	It doesn't matter how the collective intelligence of human beings can deal with something as simple as putting a fire out.
	Like, there's really complicated stuff in the world, right?
	Like, if humanity had to all move to Mars, that would be some complicated shite.
	But if we're basically talking about how can we collectively put out fires...
	I really think that human beings can manage that, and I don't have to have an answer.
	I don't have to have an answer. The reason being that I think if you want to have somebody take money from you forcefully to set up a fire department, you can do that in a free society.
	So if you want to just sign a piece of paper that says, you can take $50 a month from my bank account, Until the end of time to pay for a fire service, you can do that.
	I don't think that's a good way to do it.
	I don't think that it's good to have an automatic contract where people have to pay or they get thrown in jail.
	I think that's a really bad way to organize society.
	But if you want to do it your way, you can do it your way.
	I don't care. I mean, you're free to disagree with me.
	The question is, am I free to disagree with you?
	Am I free to choose a different way of organizing firefighting than you are?
	Because you're free to disagree with me.
	You can have your little government fire agency locally or whatever.
	I think it's a bad way to do it.
	Am I allowed to disagree with you?
	Yeah, I totally get it.
	I've watched your video on that there, what you've just done, and I totally agree with the way that you just did that.
	But their argument is it's a business, and therefore, say for instance, I'll give you an example.
	If I buy an iPod, because there's so many iPods manufactured, it's going to bring the price down, isn't it?
	If one person just wanted one iPod, you imagine the cost involved with just making one iPod, but because the production can make so many, it therefore drives the prices down.
	If you just want the fire service, How are you going to afford that?
	It's going to be massive costs, isn't it?
	How are you going to get around that issue?
	What, so you're saying that in a city of like a million people, only one person is going to care about their house burning down?
	I totally get what you're saying.
	This is what I'm dealing with constantly.
	No, no, no, but wait, so what I would say is that, but how does democracy solve that?
	Because let's say you have a democratic government, at least 51% of the people have to care about fire insurance, otherwise it's never going to get passed, right?
	Right. Yeah, exactly.
	So in your model, if only one person in London cares, we shouldn't have any fire service.
	So then where the hell does it come from?
	Yeah, exactly. It's so difficult, isn't it?
	Does that just make it uncomfortable for me?
	I'm sorry, you're going all quiet on me.
	Can you just try adjusting your mic?
	You know, they're only about 15 quid for a nice USB mic.
	If you're going to call into a show, this is a general thing.
	If you're going to call into a show, try to use something slightly more advanced than a yogurt cup in the spring.
	That's all I'm saying. It's easier for a host who has to process it.
	It isn't as bad as that.
	Perhaps it's my internet connection, to be honest.
	So yeah, I just found it really awkward when I'm debating with people.
	I just found it hard.
	It sort of branches off and then it goes, as you know, it goes to like the road or how you're going to deal with the road.
	No, no, no, it doesn't.
	Look, no, they want to take it to all of these specifics, right?
	They want to take it to all of these specifics.
	But you know, you can use this analogy, right?
	And say, look, we can talk about every different thing under the sun and the moon, right?
	But we recognize that slavery is not allowed in society because it's just morally wrong.
	It's just morally wrong.
	Now, we also don't allow parents to arrange marriages and force their children to marry.
	We just don't allow that.
	Why? Because it's wrong.
	Now, you say, well, what about the people who are so unattractive or unappealing that they just can't attract someone?
	Well, too bad.
	We still don't allow people to force their children to get married, even though some people would do better under that system.
	We just don't allow it because it's wrong.
	It's morally wrong.
	Some people do better under slavery than they would in a free market, at least temporarily.
	But we still don't say that slavery is then okay.
	Slavery is just morally wrong.
	And the debate about what happens after you get rid of slavery or what happens after you stop people from...
	It doesn't matter. What matters is, is it right or is it wrong?
	So, whether things will be perfect in the fire service or in the roads, it doesn't matter.
	What matters is, is it right or is it wrong to initiate the use of force?
	That's all that matters.
	That's the only question that's on the table.
	Is it right or is it wrong to initiate the use of force?
	If it's right to initiate the use of force, fantastic.
	We don't have a government.
	Because that right is then available to everyone and should not be the exclusive right of a few people.
	So if it's good to initiate the use of force, we have to get rid of the government because the government hoards that goodness, that juicy, violent goodness all to itself.
	And so we got to share that tasty, aggressive goodness for everyone because it's a universal principle.
	So if it's right to initiate the use of force, if it's good, we got to get rid of the government.
	If it's wrong to initiate the use of force, if it's a bad thing to do, hey, guess what?
	We got to get rid of the government.
	So it doesn't matter who does the roads or who does the hair or who walks the dogs or who shaves the cats.
	It doesn't matter. The only question that's on the table is a moral question.
	It is not a practical question.
	Because no human being is smart enough to figure out how the goddamn fires are going to be put out a hundred years from now.
	Maybe they'll have space water cannon lasers that cost one penny a month.
	Who knows? I mean, are you going to tell me that people 100 years ago, in 19 goddamn 10, would have figured out the internet?
	Or email? Or this conversation?
	Of course not. They would have had no clue what was possible 100 years from now.
	And so I don't know how the hell fires are going to be put out 100 years from now.
	And you know what? I would be embarrassed to pretend that I had an opinion about how fires are going to be put out 100 years from now.
	I would be embarrassed to pretend that I knew how roads were going to be dealt with a hundred years from now.
	Maybe everybody's teleporting and we don't need any goddamn roads.
	I don't know. In the same way that if you read any predictions from 1910, they're all ridiculous.
	I mean, read stock market predictions from three weeks ago, they're all ridiculous.
	Nobody knows what the hell is coming down the pipe.
	So for people to say, well, fires couldn't be put out in a free market.
	I mean, it's ridiculous.
	It's embarrassing.
	Because they don't have a clue.
	I don't have a clue.
	Fire experts would have no clue about what the status of anti-fire technology would be Five years from now.
	Let alone a hundred years from now when we have a free society.
	So people should just stop talking shit about which they know nothing.
	Which is what the hell is going to be used to solve problems a hundred years from now.
	The only question that matters.
	The only question that is worth talking about that is important enough to talk about right now.
	It's the moral question about how many people and under what circumstances get to point guns at other people in this world.
	That's the only thing that matters.
	The only thing that matters when you're fighting slavery is, is slavery moral or immoral?
	It doesn't matter what happens to the slaves after they're free.
	The only thing that matters, because nobody knows, nobody can predict, nobody knows.
	And anybody who pretends to know is talking out of his arse, as you would say.
	So, forget about all of these arguments from effect.
	The only thing that matters is, what is the moral status of the initiation of force?
	What is the moral status of the initiation of force?
	What is the moral status of the initiation of force?
	That's the only thing that matters.
	Everybody will try and drag the debate into some other cluster frack of another dimension, but just keep pulling them back to that.
	Well, how will this work under a free society?
	Doesn't matter. What is the moral status of the initiation of force?
	Good, bad, or neutral?
	Forget about everything else.
	Yeah, I totally agree.
	And just my other quick question is, they keep saying things like, well, it never worked back in the olden days, you know, when it was more of a free market.
	It didn't work then. How can it change and be like that?
	It's a proven fact.
	This is what they keep saying. Well, just ask them.
	Sorry to interrupt, but just ask these people, how well did the internet work in 1910?
	Yeah, true. There was no internet in 1910.
	Telephones, I think, were just coming into being, right?
	Yeah, totally. So, anybody who's trying to use the 19th century to predict the 22nd century is so full of shite, their eyes are probably brown.
	Nobody knows what is going to happen in the 22nd century.
	I mean, if these guys are so brilliant that they know how fires are going to be put out in the 20th century and all of the problems that are there, ask them for who's going to win down at the racetrack next week.
	I mean, if you know how fire is going to be put out in 100 years, you sure as hell should know which horse is going to win down at the ponies next week.
	Or ask them what the winning lottery number tickets are.
	Or ask them what the stock picks are that are going to make the most money next week.
	And if they don't have the answer to that, then tell them to shut the freck up about what's going to happen 100 years from now.
	Because if they don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, they maybe should shut the hell up about 100 years from now and start working from principles rather than making up a whole bunch of nonsense.
	Yeah, and I'll tell you what else really frustrates me, Steph, is when, you know, when they get that smug look and they start laughing to themselves and it's like, they're sort of, you know, they're laughing at you as if to say, what a dumbass.
	And it's like, oh, it's so painful.
	Do you know what I mean? Do you ever get that?
	Do I ever get that?
	No, I never get any disrespect for my opinions.
	No, of course not. Yeah, of course not.
	But look, what are they really saying?
	When you bring...
	When you bring a perspective to someone which makes him have to think from first principles, which he can't do.
	Which he can't do.
	Right? Everybody's around in these wheelchairs called prejudice, called bigotry, called not able to think, called propagandized.
	They're all wheeling around these wheelchairs, bumping into each other and calling it Athletic.
	And what happens is, then you, you flex your shoulders, you stretch your legs, and you stand up.
	And you stand up.
	And you say, you know what?
	I'm thinking from first principles now.
	I'm not going to sit in this turd-soaked, urine-soaked wheelchair of prejudice from history, of unthinking momentum, of the status quo.
	I'm going to think for myself.
	I'm not going to remain a cripple.
	When you stand up, what do people feel?
	Now what do they think?
	What do they feel?
	Yeah, I totally agree.
	What do they feel?
	Just, you get it, but I don't know the audience does.
	Yeah. It's difficult, isn't it?
	Well, I... I obviously agree with everything you say.
	You know, in terms of what you just said then, it's like you can put it across really well.
	What do they feel?
	In regards to...
	I just gave you a speech, which you're not answering, but that's okay.
	I think it's important to know why you're not answering.
	No, no, no. Sorry, Steph.
	Can you repeat just that last bit then that you said?
	I totally missed it. When everyone's in a wheelchair and they think that's all there is and you stand up, what do they feel?
	Well, a few people will definitely feel like, damn, we can stand?
	Great! But that's not what most people feel.
	But they would be annoyed that he could or that person could and they couldn't.
	Yeah, they would feel frustrated.
	They would feel angry. Fundamentally, they feel frightened.
	And why do they feel frightened?
	They feel frightened because their whole childhood, everyone said, you have to stay in the wheelchair.
	Wheelchair is good. There's no option other than the wheelchair.
	Anybody who stands up is a bad person.
	Only good people sit in their own filth in a wheelchair for the rest of their lives.
	And so when you stand up, they recognize that they've been crippled by the people who came before them.
	And they've been told lies by the people who came before them.
	And their minds have been crippled by the people who came before them.
	And they feel fear, and they feel anger, and they feel frustration.
	And confusion.
	It's overwhelming. And so they...
	Trot out all of these rhetorical magical spells to make it go away called ad hominem and eye rolling and 19th century fucking fire trucks.
	It has nothing to do with 19th century fire trucks.
	It has to do with the fact that society has actively attacked them for daring to think since they were children they gave it up long ago and you're reminding them of what happened.
	And they don't like it.
	Yeah, definitely.
	And what else is frustrating for me is, for instance, if I had a debate with yourself and you put your argument across and I couldn't argue it, I would just say, do you know what, Steph?
	Hands up to you. You've made me understand that.
	Let me buy you a drink, sort of thing.
	But some of these people, they're like, they can't be wrong.
	It's like, You're younger than, you know, they're older than you and it's like they've got something.
	It's like, you know, just admit to the fact that perhaps on this occasion you were wrong.
	Do you know what I mean? Why is it such a big deal to feel emotion, to show emotion, to Because it's not about the moment.
	You understand, it is not about the moment.
	Philosophical debate is almost never about the moment.
	It is about the dim prehistory of people's psychological formation.
	It is not about the moment.
	Because culture and society and religion and propaganda is all about killing the moment for people.
	It's about killing the moment for people and turning them into useful and obedient robots for those in charge who are also useful and obedient robots for those they have power over.
	The slaves need the masters as much as the masters need the slaves in my mind.
	Psychologically. Philosophical debates are almost never about the moment.
	Can you imagine people seriously getting worked up and emotional about how fires are going to be put out in a hundred years?
	Can you imagine anything more irrational than getting passionately worked up about how the roads might be built in the 23rd century?
	You understand? It is a crazy thing for people to get tense about, for people to get upset about.
	It makes no sense on the surface.
	Philosophical debates are always, always, always about the abuses of power in the depths of our histories, about people Not only not being trained how to think, but actively attacked for thinking.
	See, you are bringing in original thoughts, so you become the child, and then they become the asshole teacher Who is a tool of the ruling classes who attacks and mocks children and ridicules children for daring to think.
	They experienced that themselves in church.
	They experienced it in school.
	They may have experienced it with their family.
	And all they're doing is reproducing that humiliation and trauma for you rather than face up to it themselves.
	It has nothing to do with the roads and the fire trucks of the 23rd century.
	It's all about history.
	Yeah, I totally agree.
	Just to summarise then, Steph, if I ever do get into these types of debates again, which I'm sure I will do, would you just sort of use the argument for morality and just go right to the basics rather than getting into the roads and all that?
	Would you just go right to the basics and talk about that?
	Would you say that's the right sort of method to use?
	Well, I think it's a good method to use.
	It depends how close you are to the person.
	I mean, if you're really close, what I would say is, why are you getting so worked up about this?
	Right, if I'm close to the person, or if I think the person is capable of that kind of honesty.
	Right, so if I talk about a free society and they, ah, it never works, it's crazy, you're crazy, it's nonsense, they're all...
	I say, well, wait, we're just talking about a theoretical possibility 200 years from now.
	Why would it bother you?
	Now, a person who has some honesty, some self-knowledge, some integrity, some virtue, will say, you know what?
	I don't know why it bothers me.
	I don't know why it bothers me that you think that in a hundred years, Fire control should be privatized.
	I don't know. Why would that bother me?
	It makes no sense. Now, that person is a gem.
	That person is a treasure. That person is a boon companion to hold close to your heart until the day you die, in my opinion.
	Because that is the person who you can have an honest conversation with.
	But people who say, well, I'm not bothered.
	I'm not bothered by it. I just think it's stupid.
	When they're clearly bothered by it, look, if you don't have the honesty To talk genuinely about what you're experiencing in the moment.
	The idea that you can solve monstrous social problems of ethics and economics and resource allocation and politics, it's ridiculous.
	If somebody can't be honest about what they think and feel in the moment, then they can't conceivably be honest About very abstract, philosophical, economic, or psychological topics.
	They can't. Because we judge people in the here and now by the small things, not the large things.
	You don't hand your life savings to a guy who just stole $100 from you because he's already proven to you that he can't honestly handle $100, let alone your life savings.
	And so you ask someone in the moment, wait, why do you think this bothers you so much?
	This is just a theoretical conversation.
	This is not imminent. It's not about to happen.
	Why does it bother you?
	Now somebody who can honestly answer that?
	Beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.
	That is something to be really admired.
	So that's one possibility.
	Another possibility is that you simply say, you just go back to the argument for morality.
	No, no, no, no. This is not about the fire.
	This is not about anything specific.
	Right? Like if we say we should end slavery, we're not talking about any particular slave.
	When we say we should not, women should have equal rights to men, we're not talking about one particular woman or what her life will be like if she is suddenly granted equal rights.
	Right? That's dealing with the specifics.
	We're dealing with philosophy here, which is about concepts, not about particulars.
	Like, we're talking about a theory of gravity, not one rock, right?
	So, let's talk about the principles behind it.
	And if they say, well, morals aren't part of, you know, how we organize society, then, well, that's pretty easy to blow away, but it's just nonsense.
	Yeah. And finally, you can take your philosophy, as most philosophers do, from Samuel L. Jackson's character in the 1994 gruesome movie Pulp Fiction, because Jules, who plays this jerry-curled hitman, says to Vincent near the end of the film, if my answers frighten you, then you should cease asking scary questions.
	You could always quote that, and then pat your waist as if you have a gun.
	Yeah, definitely. I'll try that one next time.
	And really work on your Samuel L. Jackson impersonation.
	I'm not saying I'm doing one, but that can really help clarify things for people.
	No problem, Steph.
	Apologies for the interference.
	I think it's due to the internet connection.
	I'm quite far from the exchange, and I don't get very good speed, so I apologize for that.
	Yeah, usually that's when things cut out rather than when the volume goes up and down, but you can always do the Skype test tool next time.
	But thank you. I appreciate it. No problem.
	Thanks a lot. Thank you for your help.
	Somebody has asked my appearance on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.
	There is some people who have been writing on The Daily Show forum suggesting me as a guest.
	I hugely appreciate that.
	Personally, I think that it's too soon.
	I don't think that they would have a very strong motivation to put me on the show, much though I would be very happy to be on the show.
	There's not a hook.
	There's not something that is going to be immediate that is important enough for them, I think, in a couple of years, you know, after my TED Talk, then perhaps.
	And I certainly appreciate the effort.
	And I think that it's a good thing to do right now because they'll then have heard my name and said no, but then if they hear it again at some point in the future, I think that's good.
	But remember, I've only done a handful of public speaking appearances.
	I have a bunch more coming up this year and I'm going to work as hard as I can to make those as good as possible.
	But I'm certainly no phenomenon as yet.
	This show is not anywhere part of the cultural landscape as yet.
	It is a specialized taste.
	It is an underground vintage.
	And so I think that it's a good thing to do to let them know that I'm around.
	But I don't think that it's something that is going to be imminent.
	But certainly down the road, perhaps it will be possible.
	All right, we have time, though not much.
	Yo, Steph, can you hear me?
	I sure can. All right.
	Okay, I guess my problem is I'm kind of going through this defu process, if you can call it that.
	And my parents are really big Bible thumpers, and I'm gay.
	So, of course, they think, you know, I'm kind of like possessed by the devil and all that stuff.
	And my mother, like, there was a problem.
	And by the devil in spandex, which is even worse, but sorry.
	Exactly, I know, right. Yeah, so my mother, she votes against all the gay laws.
	She votes so that I couldn't marry someone if I so choose.
	And I had this discussion with her, and she believes it would take away from her freedom to not be allowed to vote, to restrict my rights, and all this ridiculous stuff.
	And, I don't know, they have a four-year-old daughter, so she's my sister, so that's kind of the thing that makes it really difficult to defu completely.
	I'm just not quite sure how to handle the situation.
	It seems like they're almost impervious to logic and rationality.
	And how long have they known that you're gay?
	About two years. Right, right.
	And have they eased up at all, or come around at all, or is it still getting behind me, Satan?
	It's still the whole, oh, you're misled by spirit of the devil or spirit of the darkness.
	I swear to God, it's like a talking tube going back to 1460 in terms of like, it's like talking to medieval people in this sense, you know, like you're possessed of a devil?
	I mean, God. Anyway, so first of all, I'm completely sorry about this situation.
	That is really hard.
	That is really hard. It's one thing to be an atheist, right?
	Yeah. Right?
	Because, you know, an atheist, maybe you'll, like, oh, I guess they feel that this gay thing is like, you know, you flipped a coin, and you're like, I guess it comes up heads, so to speak.
	Or tails, I guess you could say.
	But it comes up gay. But don't worry, in a year or two from now, if we convince him, then he'll flip the coin, and it'll come up straight.
	Like, maybe they feel that it's, I think religious people do feel, because they have these camps to deconvert.
	Yeah. Gay people, right?
	And so I think they feel like it's more of a choice.
	And as far as I understand it, it's not a choice at all.
	And so maybe they feel that it's just, you know, like you don't choose your sexual orientation any more than you choose your gender.
	And no amount of chatting about the evils of being a man will turn you into a woman or vice versa.
	Yeah, I think they kind of bought into that whole, you can be saved by Christ and become straight sort of thing.
	Right. I mean, Christ is one of the gayest fictional characters the world has ever seen, right?
	He hangs around with 12 unmarried men.
	He's in his 30s, and he still hadn't been married.
	And I don't think he had anything under those robes, except maybe some chaps.
	But anyway, we'll not get overly distracted by the gay Jesus thesis.
	But... So, is it the homosexuality that is the major bone of contention, so to speak, between yourself and your parents, or is it something else?
	It's... Or something in addition to or in conjunction with?
	There was a time, like, whenever they were really into drugs, and this was, like, I was 13, 14, 15, 16.
	And, like, life, I mean, life wasn't present.
	I mean, it wasn't pleasant. So, I mean, it's kind of like a history.
	Plus, it's now like, oh, they're clean and stuff, and they're all saved by Jesus.
	I'm sorry, your parents were into drugs when you were that age?
	Yes, yes, yes. Oh, really?
	Yeah. What was that like?
	It was pretty horrible.
	I mean, there wasn't a lot of food in the house, and I don't need sympathy or anything like that, but I had a bed.
	It wasn't even a bed. It was some cushions on the floor and stuff that I used to sleep in and stuff like that.
	So, I mean, it wasn't really...
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Why don't you need sympathy? I don't want to...
	I guess really it's like I don't want to feel like I need to play off my past experiences to get where I want in life.
	I mean, I don't want to like...
	I don't want to...
	I don't know how to phrase it.
	Let's see. I don't want to come off as like, oh, poor Lucas and his old childhood and let's...
	I don't know. Kind of along that line of thinking.
	Yeah, I'm not sure.
	So, the key word there is need, right?
	Like, you can survive without sympathy for this horrible sequence of addicted parents and no food, I guess, unless they were addicted to marijuana.
	In case, I guess there's just snack cakes in the house.
	But... So the word need is the issue, right?
	I think clearly, if you've been through something that is difficult and traumatic, sympathy is a reasonable and healthy response to that, right?
	Yeah. Like, I mean, if my daughter stubs her toe, I feel sympathy for her and I give her, you know, kisses and hugs to make her feel better.
	Now, clearly, what you went through...
	I mean, the number of things that you've talked about and the homosexuality, which is stressful enough even in a non-Christian culture, but in Christian culture is all the more so.
	The parents' opposition to it.
	Even if your parents had been a secular and pro-gay, you still would have had problems socially, right, because of the other Christians around.
	So it's the homosexuality in the Christian culture, it's your parents' opposition to that, plus drug addiction.
	That's a little bit more than my daughter stubbing her toe.
	And if I'm going to feel sympathy and empathy for my daughter stubbing her toe, I'm not sure I wouldn't feel a whole lot more for what you went through through no fault of your own.
	Okay, yeah, I see your point.
	I'm not sure if maybe sympathy was the right word, but, well, at least if it...
	Yeah, okay, I understand.
	I understand what you're saying.
	Why does it bother you?
	Why would sympathy bother you?
	I don't know. It's...
	I mean...
	Maybe you're right. Maybe it's inappropriate to be sympathetic, but I'm just curious why it bothers you.
	I mean, it's something I never really talk about, and it's not like...
	Let's see...
	Just because I don't want people to just anger on me because they feel sorry for me or something like that.
	I'm not sure how sympathy is the same as pity.
	Okay. I guess I'll restrict my statement as in I mean, sorry, let me just tell you why.
	I think that sympathy is more for people who've suffered evil or suffered wrong, let's just say.
	And I think pity is more for the after effects of what happens to people who do wrong.
	I mean, I might feel some pity for your parents, but I certainly wouldn't feel pity for you, but I certainly would feel strong sympathy and admiration.
	Sympathy for what you went through and admiration for dealing with it so well.
	I mean, assuming this isn't your one call from jail, so dealing with it well is good, right?
	Yeah, no, I believe I've handled it pretty well so far.
	Yeah. Okay, so I guess I could use some sympathy.
	Well, and the reason that I say that is that if we...
	My main concern, at least from what you've said to me so far, is not...
	You must take my sympathy.
	You can take my sympathy or you can leave my sympathy.
	That's obviously completely up to you.
	My concern is not the relationship that you have with my sympathy, my friend.
	My concern is the relationship that you have with your sympathy.
	With your sympathy for yourself.
	I'm not sure if I understand exactly what you mean.
	I don't think that we can reject emotions in others without first rejecting those emotions in ourselves.
	Okay. So my concern is not that you reject my sympathy, which you're perfectly free to do.
	My concern is that you are also rejecting your own sympathy for yourself and your situation.
	That may very well be the case.
	Go on. I don't know.
	It's just something that I never really try to think about.
	I don't know, like my childhood or anything like that much.
	I never try to dwell about it.
	I never dwell on it or try to...
	It's kind of something I use as...
	I guess it's...
	I have a hard time explaining things, but I guess it's more something that I would try to use as a stepping stone rather than a stone that would drive me.
	It's tied to me. Do you understand kind of what I'm saying?
	But it was a stone that was tied to you.
	Yes, yes, it was.
	It was a very heavy stone.
	So that's a reality, that you were in difficult and unfortunate and bad circumstances, right?
	For a long time. Yeah.
	You would feel sympathy for somebody else who was in that situation, right?
	I totally would.
	I mean, yeah. You're right.
	You're right. So I'm just saying that for yourself, I think it's important.
	I mean, this is my annoying universal standard, right?
	This is the philosophical core of everything that I talk about, that if you would feel sympathy for somebody else in your situation, then rejecting sympathy for yourself is Doesn't work.
	It just doesn't work.
	It's not universal anymore, right?
	It's not philosophical, and therefore it's not true.
	Now, I also believe that we should have more sympathy for what we experienced and for what other people experienced, simply because we experienced it, and therefore we know much more intimately how bad things were.
	Okay, I see what you mean.
	I mean, the more you learn about somebody's bad experiences, the more sympathy I think you should have for them.
	And nobody knows more about our own bad experiences than we do.
	So we should, in a sense, have the most sympathy for ourselves relative to others.
	Yeah, I think I agree with that.
	Yeah, I definitely agree with that.
	And I think what you also want is to not be defined by these experiences, right?
	Yeah. Right.
	But my argument would be that to not be defined by these experiences Would be to freely choose to express or not to express them.
	Because if you say, well, I'm not going to be defined by these experiences, so I don't want any sympathy, so, right?
	Then, in a sense, you're trying to control other people, you're trying to control yourself.
	And so, in a very real way, you are more being defined by those experiences than if you simply accepted the sympathy.
	I'm having a hard time following that, exactly.
	Well, if I say to you, you can't show sympathy for me because I don't want our relationship to be dictated by my experiences, then our relationship is being dictated by my experiences.
	I got you. Because I'm saying, because of my experiences and what happened, you can't show sympathy, so my experiences are dictating our relationship.
	Yeah, it would be having the completely opposite effects.
	Right. So you think that you're escaping it dominating your relationships, but by rejecting rational sympathy and saying, I don't want to receive that from you, your experiences are dominating the relationship, at least in that particular area.
	Okay, I got you. That makes sense.
	That makes sense. Sorry to be annoying with this minor detour, but let's get back to your core question, which you could perhaps repeat to me.
	I guess people would label me as a strong atheist, although I wouldn't really use that term.
	But I definitely see how detrimental the religious thought and religious belief is decided.
	I posted a video that outlined an argument like faith in and of itself is pretty similar to bigotry.
	They're both They're both accepting something without evidence or contrary to reality or something like that.
	And then there was a big long discussion between my mom and my stepfather and all this.
	And that's when the whole gay thing came up again.
	Like, oh, you're being led by a spirit of the devil and all this stuff.
	And, I mean, I wouldn't really have a problem defuing except they have a four-year-old daughter.
	And, I mean, I don't want her to be...
	I don't know. No, I understand.
	Yeah. I understand. So it's difficult in that way.
	Right. And I explained the whole issue like, okay, so to my mother, she still would vote to restrict so I can marry and stuff like that.
	But she's like, oh, but I still love you and I would still respect the person if you ever did get married.
	But at the same time, she's voting to make sure I couldn't I mean, it's not even such like, oh, I'm gay.
	It's kind of just like, oh, you're going to restrict what I can do because, just because, like, the Bible, I don't know.
	It's, yeah, I don't know.
	Right. Look, I don't think...
	I mean, I think that the conversation about your parents would be a pretty long one.
	And we are a little pressed for time, so I really wanted to extend my sympathy.
	Because look, you're not just gay, you're not just an atheist, you're a gaytheist.
	I mean, this is like the worst combination in many ways, right, for your fundamentalist Christians.
	So that's a big deal.
	I obviously strongly suggest...
	Getting heavily involved in therapy before making any even temporary decisions about family contact.
	I absolutely completely affirm that adult relations are voluntary.
	I do not believe that it is a good idea to keep continually abusive people in your life.
	I'm not the only one who thinks that, of course, but that is my opinion.
	It certainly has worked very well for me to get continual abusers out of my life, but that's a decision that everyone has to make for himself or herself.
	So, that's my standard, you know, this is my template response and I just wanted to get that across so that you or others listening to this understand where I'm coming from.
	As far as your half-sister goes, is that the right way to put it?
	Oh man, I don't know.
	I mean, I get asked this quite a bit and I just, I don't have a good answer because I don't think there is a good answer.
	There's certainly no objective answer.
	It's not like the non-aggression principle.
	Should I go strangle this homeless guy?
	Well, no, you shouldn't, right? That's an obvious one, right?
	But the question is, I mean, the question of, do you stay in contact with people that you have significant problems with for the sake of other people that you may be positively influencing, particularly children?
	Yeah. I mean, it's an absolutely wretched and horrible decision.
	It's an absolutely wretched and horrible decision.
	And I mean, I just wanted to express my sympathy for being put in this position at all.
	I mean, wouldn't you just love to, you know, if you have a boyfriend, bring your boyfriend over and have laughs and shits and giggles and play with your half-sister and have all of that kind of good fun.
	I mean, wouldn't that be just great to not have to be faced with this Sophie's choice, so to speak.
	I know you don't like the sympathy, but what the hell?
	I'll shovel some more your way and you can throw it up later if you like.
	I don't have an answer.
	I don't have an answer.
	The challenge is that in order to be an influential person on your hot sister's life, you're going to have to be over there quite a bit.
	I think you can't be a positive influence on a child's life by bungeeing in once every three months.
	I agree. And so that means being in close proximity to your parents if you're going to do that.
	No one can tell you whether that's worth it or not.
	And by worth it, I don't mean like whether your half-sister is worth it.
	I mean, she should have all of the positive influences that can be imagined for sure.
	But... What I experienced, and I faced the same choice, though in my family the kids weren't quite as young, I did not feel that I could be a positive influence by being around my family.
	And I agonized over this for years.
	I did not feel that I could.
	Now, again, my nieces were older, but I didn't feel that I could.
	I understand. And you know the whole, right?
	Because I wouldn't be myself around my family.
	I would be messed up and defensive, and I'd have to detox afterwards.
	And I would be saying, yes, it's good to have these sorts of people in your life because I'm here, right?
	Yeah. That was my reasoning, and no one can tell you, right?
	Don't let anyone tell you.
	What to do, right?
	I'm just giving you my reasoning.
	Or my experience.
	And, you know, they know where I am.
	Again, it's different because your half-sister is so much younger.
	But I think it's also very, very important to recognize that as far as, and it's a painful thing to face up to, but as far as influence over her goes, you're gonna have, like, no matter how dedicated you are, you're gonna have, like, maximum 5% relative to your parents.
	I see what you mean. Yeah.
	You know, they're the ones day and night.
	They're the ones sitting doing the homework.
	They're the ones taking her to church.
	On Sundays. Yeah.
	They're the ones tucking her in at night.
	They're the ones reading her Bible bedtime stories, right?
	Yeah. They're the ones putting her in Sunday school.
	You get it, right? Yeah.
	Yeah. So there is, I mean, there's a cost-benefit stuffed away.
	And again, no one can tell you, but there's a cost-benefit stuffed away.
	How much harm is it going to do to you?
	How much good is it going to do To her.
	I don't know. I mean, nobody can tell you that, but that's the way that I would approach it.
	Okay. That's a helpful way to go about it.
	To look at it. To think about it, at least.
	Thanks a lot for that.
	You're welcome, man. And again, I hope that you will talk to a therapist and I just, you know, much that you hate it, I really do sympathize.
	It is a It is a very difficult situation to be in on just about every level.
	So I'm so sorry for you having to face this rather than having a different kind of family that these issues wouldn't even arise with.
	I appreciate that.
	And I enjoyed listening and participating in the discussion, in this discussion.
	Well, thanks, man. And all the best.
	Keep me posted if you get a chance.
	Will do. See you.
	Thanks, man. Well, thank you, everybody.
	You know, these shows are a constant workout, and I hugely appreciate, I mean, as I always say, and I just, I don't feel like I can say it enough.
	I mean, I love this conversation.
	I think that your listeners are absolutely fantastic.
	I completely admire your courage and your integrity and your Your fears, which I share.
	Your anxieties, which I share.
	And I just wanted to say it's how much I admire everyone who calls in, everyone who participates in philosophy, in self-knowledge, in the pursuit of self-knowledge.
	I really, really admire this community more than I think I could ever express.
	And Lord knows, I can express quite a lot and quite continually.
	So thank you everybody so much.
	Have yourselves an absolutely, absolutely wonderful week.

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