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July 25, 2010 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:50:51

1711 Freedomain Radio Sunday Show, 25 July 2010

Human rights, protecting children without the state, the emptiness of wealth, the challenge of racism, and the purpose of philosophy.

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	All right. Thank you, everybody, for joining us on this Scorcher of a Sunday, July 25th, 2010, just after 4 p.m.
	in the AFT EST. And I hope you're having an absolutely wonderful, wonderful week.
	We have at least someone on the phone right now, so let's go straight to the brains of the outfit, a.k.a.
	the flesh beast Borg brain known as the listenership.
	So you're on the phone right now.
	If you'd like to ask a question or make a comment, please go ahead.
	Okay, now this is me, right?
	This is you. Wait, was that a philosophical question?
	No, I'm just kidding. Come on. Okay, so assuming that the state does not murder you first, if you live to be a geriatric, would you rather have sound mental capacity or sound physical capacity?
	Meaning, would you rather be mentally healthy or physically healthy if you had to choose between the two when you become like 80 years old in that range?
	Oh, yeah. I mean, for me, mental health would be the most important.
	I mean, I think those are good questions, because in some ways, you have to aim at one or the other.
	And so, because you don't get it all when you're 80, when there's going to be some limitation.
	I don't even get it all. I'm 43.
	I'm already starting to experience some changes.
	In my body and so yeah, I get that.
	It's a good question and I would always go for mental acuity, mental health.
	I mean, I think that it must be a terrifying thing to go through something like dementia, which would probably be more of a physical ailment.
	But the reality is for me, hopefully by the time I'm 80, you will be able to take just about any pill for pain management.
	Because pain management is quite a powerful branch of medicine.
	But I don't think that you can take any pill to help you with misery in your soul.
	At least that's what I've seen.
	So I'm less terrified of the physical decay than I would be of the decay within my soul or the attack that may come from my conscience.
	So I would opt for mental health and happiness because I would assume that the other stuff could probably be managed to some degree.
	Well, for example, if you have poor physical health, you may be bound to a bed.
	You may get bed sores from that.
	You may not want to live any longer because of the pain that you would experience.
	So that's an argument for the pro-physical health side, whereas the pro-mental health side Usually people do not agree who side with you that ignorance is bliss.
	And when you talk about dementia and those types of mental diseases, the people commonly say, oh, I'd rather just be dumb and have people take care of me and be physically able and not know about what's really going on.
	So people who would rather have physical health than mental health tend to say, I think that ignorance is bliss.
	Do you have any comments? Well, yes, but you're assuming that they're describing the future, right?
	They may not be describing the future at all.
	I think that for a great many people in this life, in the present, ignorance is bliss.
	Or it seems to be, or it appears to be bliss.
	You can see this, of course, in the distractions of mainstream media and many movies.
	And, I mean, the amount of people, sorry, the amount of time and energy that people put into As inconsequential a set of things as buying a pair of shoes or choosing which movie to go and see or any of those things, the amount of energy, time, and resources that people invest into completely inconsequential things in the larger sphere of their life's happiness compared to simply taking care of their own souls.
	Even people... Who put a lot of work and effort into taking care of their physical bodies, right?
	So you think of the situation from Jersey Shore, right?
	I mean, he obviously these guys with their banging bodies, they go to the gym.
	I mean, I know that to get that kind of body, you probably have to go to the gym at least two hours a day.
	That's a big deal, right?
	That's a lot of time.
	That's like two extra work days a week of going to the gym.
	And I guess for certain people that will make you physically attractive, but the question for me is always, but what about your soul?
	What about your conscience? What about your happiness?
	What about your virtue? And it's an annoying and nerdy and age-old question that is asked by philosophers and to some degree priests, though I think incorrectly, all the time.
	So when somebody says, well, I'd rather just be dumb, not know anything, and have somebody else take care of me, they're not describing their possible future state when they're 80.
	They're describing their present state relative to the government or some external agency in the present.
	That would be my guess, though.
	Of course, I'm not going to say that that's true for every case.
	All right. Well, I thank you for your comments today.
	I always look forward to your insights.
	I appreciate that. Thank you.
	It's an interesting question. I think those kinds of questions are very interesting because they tend to reveal, I think, what people are actually thinking about in the present.
	And I hope that that helps people to understand that people aren't describing the future.
	They're describing the present, I think.
	All right. Next.
	But who is attractive at 80?
	Well, depends what you mean by attractive, right?
	I think that you can be radiantly beautiful at 80.
	Well, but attractiveness is also relative to age, right?
	So it's a minor contrarian position, but I think that you can be physically beautiful when you're 80, if you've aged well and gracefully.
	So let me give you an example, right?
	So Megan Fox is a beautiful woman, given her current proportions and all of that.
	And so she's a beautiful woman.
	Now, when my daughter was born, or pretty much at any time, she was a beautiful baby.
	She's a beautiful girl.
	If you took my daughter and blew her proportions up exactly so that she was the size of Megan Fox, she'd be completely terrifying and grotesque.
	I mean, she would just be a giant, freaky, bulbous-headed baby.
	So what is beautiful at, I guess, 19 months is not what is beautiful at, I don't know, 22 or whatever, however old Megan Fox is.
	And so I think that you can have a beauty that is appropriate to the age that does not detract.
	It's just different standards, right?
	What's beautiful for a baby is not the same as what's beautiful for a young woman is not the same as what's beautiful for an old man or woman.
	So I think that that would be my suggestion.
	Hello? Alright, if we don't have anyone, it's either talking, my friends, or it's UPB. Hi, Steph.
	Hello. Oh, hi. Hello.
	Hi. Hi, it's Alex, Alexis.
	Oh, hi. How you doing? I'm great, how are you?
	I hope I'm next.
	I hope I'm not jumping ahead.
	No, no, go for it. Okay, I just wanted to talk to you about rights.
	First of all, just wanted to say, you know, fantastic show, love the show.
	I love the work that you're actually doing.
	I think it's really inspiring and helped a lot of people, including myself.
	So I just wanted to start with that.
	Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that.
	Cheers. Right, so anytime I've talked to people about rights, there's this sort of inherent belief, I suppose, that there is such thing as an actual right in that there's a natural right or a moral right and then there's a legal right I'd just like to talk or ask you actually for your opinion on rights and how you see them because I don't actually believe that there are things such as rights and people talk about having a claim or a claim right,
	a right which entails that somebody else such as the right holder is entitled to something.
	I just wondered what's your position on that?
	It's a great question, and I think that there is a huge amount of confusion around rights.
	And the first thing that I would say is that rights clearly do not exist.
	They do not exist in the way that a no's exists.
	So I have a no's. And that's objective.
	And I have a nose whether I'm standing on a desert island, I have a nose at night, I have a nose.
	If someone comes up and disagrees with me that I have a nose, assuming they don't hack it off with something sinister, I still have a nose.
	So my nose exists independent of my consciousness.
	If I have some delusion that I don't have a nose, then I still have a nose and all this, right?
	So my nose exists and it is a property or a part of my body.
	My consciousness has some form of measurable existence, right?
	Sort of the contents of it can be explicated through language or whatever, right?
	So there are those things, and I have mass, and I have a gravitational well, and so these are all properties of my body, but there's nothing in me Which is called a right.
	Like I have a spleen, and right next to the spleen, I don't have a little organ called human rights.
	And so clearly rights don't exist in the way that things in the world and the effects of things in the world exist.
	I think that has to be understood.
	So then the question is, you have to ask people, so you say, well, I have rights.
	It's like, well, what does that mean?
	What do you have? And there's lots of different answers, which is one of the reasons why I consider rights to be a libertarian form of religion.
	And it's a way, to me, rights is a very primitive way of trying to establish UPB. So people will say, well, I have property rights.
	And it's like, well, you really don't.
	Nobody can take away my mass, but people can take away my property all the time.
	And so you don't actually have rights.
	Now what people, what rights generally translate to in most people is that I have a claim to protection from other people.
	That's sort of what people say.
	And so rights is a form of begging.
	Rights is saying, please don't hit me.
	Rights is saying, please don't take my lunch money.
	And so it is a request for other people not to harm you.
	And it's...
	That's the basic reality.
	And of course the challenge for all statists is that rights, for anybody who believes in a government, or the moral validity of a government, rights cannot be protected without being violated.
	That's the basic fundamental contradiction when it comes to the government and rights.
	And so if I say, well, I have the right to the protection from my property, so I want a government because I have the right to protection.
	Well, first of all, if you have the right to protection from your property, you shouldn't need some external agency to enforce it.
	If you actually have that right, then you should not need another agency to enforce it.
	So I have a property called Mass, so I don't need a government agency called StephBotHasMass to enforce that because it is simply a physical property of who I am.
	And so anybody who believes in a government says, I have the right to protection from aggression.
	So I want a government.
	And the first thing a government does, of course, is aggress against you to take your money in order to protect you, your property rights, and your right to live without aggression.
	And so this is a self-detonating statement, right?
	In order to protect my rights, I must violate my rights.
	My rights are so precious and in such need of protection that they must first be violated immediately.
	In order to exist. Well, that's just a mess, logically and I would say even emotionally, right?
	And so I would say that it's nonsense and I think that it comes, the reason people say that is that when you're a child, you do have, I think, just claim to protection and food and hopefully love.
	From your parents and I think that people sort of take that expectation into the adult world but rights don't exist and any attempt to enforce them using a government is a fundamental contradiction, a performative contradiction because you're saying these rights are inviolate, they are universal, they are precious and therefore they need to be violated by a small group of individuals in perpetuity and that doesn't make any sense.
	Okay. I agree with you completely.
	I think that's pretty much in line with how I feel about that particular issue.
	Because when I'm debating with people, it's normally a legal right that they're talking about.
	But that's within a system whereby, obviously a state system.
	So how do you get around that when you're talking about legal issues?
	And the only reason I mention this is because A friend of mine at the moment, he's going for a legal battle to get access to see his children.
	Obviously that involves all the red tape, all the kind of go and see solicitors and lawyers and people like that.
	But I mean, how could that be resolved?
	And the reason is because I'm thinking more in a stateless society, how would those sorts of things be resolved if it was sort of the natural economy of interactions in a free market?
	Is there any sort of way in which you think that those sort of issues could be resolved?
	So, without getting into identifiable details, can you just give me a little bit more information about your friend and his custody battle?
	No names, I'm just curious so I can get a sense of details.
	Can you just give me a little bit more information about your friend and his...
	He's quite young.
	I mean, he's 20. He's got two children.
	He was seen with his girlfriend for a little while.
	He's not married or engaged to her.
	He was with her for under three years.
	They separated. She's very, very irrational.
	And her justification for him not seeing his children is because they were together.
	She cheated on him.
	She's now pregnant with the other guy's kid.
	He's not something out of Jerry Springer.
	And she claims because he doesn't want anything to do with her, i.e.
	relationship, that she's got the right to take away his children and to stop him having access to his children.
	Completely irrational response and I just wondered how would that kind of thing be resolved?
	I think if there wasn't such thing as a court or a law, how would those sort of things be resolved?
	I'm trying to really think of ways that that could be achieved.
	Yeah, no, that's a big question.
	It's a big question. I'm sorry, maybe I missed it.
	What was her justification for him not seeing her children?
	Because she wanted him back, even though she's pregnant with someone else's kid, she wanted him back and was very angry at him because he wouldn't go back to her, so she just stopped him from having access to his children, which is just retarded.
	Oh yeah, that's wretched.
	Punishing her own children, stopping them having an opportunity to spend time with their father.
	Oh yeah, no, this is completely wretched.
	I'm so sorry. How terrible.
	Now, how's this working out for him in the current system, right?
	So how's it working for him in the current system?
	Is he getting justice?
	Is he getting things sorted out?
	Well, at the moment we've just got a solicitor and we've pretty much just started the process of getting access to his children.
	So I know from what I've read on the internet, and I've spoken to quite a few people, it's quite a slippery slope in that, you know, normally the mother's kind of getting almost like a bit of an advantage in that department.
	But he's a nice guy, he's honest, and he's very open to finding a solution that works.
	But I think at the moment he's...
	We've just started it.
	I know it's going to be an uphill battle, but I think she hasn't really got a leg to stand on from a legal point of view because he's not done anything.
	If he was shooting up heroin or drinking every night and violent, then I could kind of understand her wanting her children to be safe.
	But it's just such an irrational way of dealing with the problem that she created, basically.
	Why... Why did he have children with this woman?
	I think it was...
	The first one was kind of just unprotected sex.
	I think he was quite young and didn't really think about what he was doing.
	He had a second child with him.
	God knows why. He should have learnt really, but...
	I don't know.
	I really don't know. I've sat down and talked to him about it and tried to understand from his point of view, but...
	It's difficult. He's in a situation where all those things have sort of happened, and you've just got to try and sort it out the best way you can.
	Right, okay. Let me just ask one or two other questions.
	So what is she living on?
	I mean, I assume with two young children, she's not exactly jetting off to be a stewardess, so what is she living on?
	I think she's living on the stack.
	She's on the doll, right?
	Yeah, she is. She's really unproductive, probably the most unproductive person you could ever make.
	Right, right.
	Well, of course, that may not be the...
	That wouldn't be the case in a free society.
	Like, in a free society, there would not be automatic doll, right?
	Yeah, totally. Now, in a free society, she would have to – she would rely on charity or her parents might have brought her pregnancy insurance or something like that.
	And in order – so the odds of having unprotected sex when the consequences would be really dire would be less.
	That doesn't mean that people wouldn't do stupid things or make mistakes or a condom wouldn't break or something like that.
	But the consequences would be very different in a free society.
	There wouldn't be free health care, free dental care from the UK.
	There wouldn't be subsidized housing and food stamps and welfare and all of these kinds of things.
	So the consequences of people's actions would be much more glaring, right?
	Because the whole point of philosophy is around prevention, it's not cure, right?
	So philosophy is like nutrition, right?
	So if you're having a heart attack, you don't call a nutritionist and say, how do I need to change my diet for better heart health?
	You say, shit, I better get to the emergency room because I'm having a heart attack.
	Hopefully. So philosophy is like nutrition.
	It's like being a nutritionist.
	It really can prevent things, right?
	So if you wake up one morning and you've been smoking for 40 years and you cough up black bits of bloody lung, it's not that much use to call a smoking cessation program, right?
	Because to quit smoking is all of a prevention, not cure.
	So that's the first thing. So now that your friend is in this horrible, difficult, dire...
	Terrible situation which is going to possibly consume him for the next 20 years of his life.
	The first thing is to recognize is that philosophy can't do a huge amount to help him at the moment, which again, I'm not saying that philosophy can't give him some comfort, but philosophy and a free society would all be about preventing these kinds of problems, not... Not finding ways to solve them after the fact?
	And I just say that before I'll try and tackle the issue as I think it might, but does that make any sense?
	No, that totally does.
	I've actually sat down with him and had lengthy conversations because I don't think his parents are supporting him very well.
	And the fact is he's 20.
	I'm 28 at the moment and I know for a fact that when I was 20, Have you ever gone for music experiences?
	I did. It would be very difficult to sort of find ways to make that situation for yourself mentally as well.
	It's a lot to have, a lot to take on board.
	I've tried to introduce three of my radio teams as well, just so we can He has a bit more tools.
	He can have a bit more perspective on it.
	And I think that's really important as well.
	If you can at least look at the situation and say, yeah, it's a bad situation, but how can I improve the way I feel and how can I find a solution that's not, you know, doing something crazy or getting yourself locked up.
	It's something that's quite positive.
	And I think, obviously, you offer that in terms of the idea I'm so sorry, that sort of got chewed up a little bit, but let me just give a bit of a speech, and this is completely off the top of my head, so this isn't set in stone, and I haven't spent a huge amount of time thinking about this.
	In fact, I've spent almost none.
	So forgive me if I end up having to retract all of this, but I will at least give you my initial thoughts on the situation.
	A property rights are limited by the just use of property, right?
	So I can't exercise my property rights to the point where they harm other people either now or in the future, right?
	So I can't set up a barbecue in your basement and fill your house with smoke.
	At night, I can break into your house, right?
	Because that would harm you as the smoke seeped out, right?
	So property rights do not include the right to harm others either now or in the future.
	Now, children, as I've argued in a recent podcast, are a form of property, and they are the property of the parents.
	So in this case...
	Your friend has shared property rights in the same way that if he and his girlfriend had started a business together and had worked 50-50 to make the business successful, if they broke up, they would each get 50% of the business that they had created.
	So in the same way, he has a 50% property right to his children.
	And now how does he...
	Again, assuming...
	So if they start a store together...
	And they have 50% ownership.
	That doesn't mean that his girlfriend has a 50% right to set fire to her half of the store, right?
	Because clearly if she sets fire to her half of the store, his half of the store is going to go up in flames as well.
	So she can't say, hey, well I only set fire to my 50% and so your 50% that's just an accident and I had nothing to do with it.
	And so parental judgments and interactions and so on, they all have direct effects upon the development of children.
	So let's say that they get 50-50 custody and she says, well, when I get them, I'm not going to feed them.
	Well, that wouldn't be just.
	That wouldn't be fair because she would be harming the property that they both share, which is the children.
	And so that to me would sort of be the moral reality.
	She also doesn't have the right to harm them in the future.
	And if you want to, or if you haven't seen it, there's this Bomb in the Brain series that I have done on YouTube, and I think it's in the podcast feed as well.
	Wherein I talk about the ways in which parental abuses directly and negatively affect the mental and sometimes physical development of children, right?
	So your friend's girlfriend does not have the...
	I'm just going to use the word right here for convenience.
	I can't think of too many new terms all at once.
	Your friend's girlfriend does not have the right to harm the development of her children, either physically or emotionally or mentally.
	And so in a free society, this would be all recognized and this would all be laid out.
	Now, you simply can't raise children in society without having access to To participation in that society, you can't do it.
	You need diapers, you need milk, you need toys, you need six million things to raise children, and society needs to be involved in the raising of children.
	You simply can't do it alone.
	You can't even give birth to children, at least very easily, on your own.
	And so, what would society want in return for this sort of participation?
	Well, it would want good behavior on the part of the parents in order to participate.
	Now the difference of course is that you can economically ostracize or refuse to do business with an adult but you can't You can't justly do that in relation to children, because children can't survive without society.
	And so it would simply be a removal of the children.
	It would be a removal of children from the destructive parent, in the same way that if I come at you with a knife, you have the right to take my knife away, because I'm going to use it to harm you.
	And so because this is all universal ethics, it would simply be that you have to treat your children well.
	And I strongly, strongly believe in the future.
	I believe that this is the case even in the present.
	But I strongly believe in the future that brain scans will very quickly show children who've experienced emotional abuse or sexual abuse or other kinds of abuse that don't leave physical scars.
	It will leave a very bloody footprint in the brain.
	And so parents would be charged, so to speak, with harm to children if the brains of the children showed excessive levels of cortisol or diminished frontal lobe capacity or expanded sort of core brain problems or impulse control problems.
	These were all sharp in the brain and these would all be directly traceable to abusive or destructive parenting habits and you would simply You would charge based on that.
	In the same way that you would charge if you find finger marks around the neck of a child, you would charge if you do a brain scan.
	And I would assume these brain scans, they're pretty cheap.
	They would just be part of the child's regular checkup, right?
	You would bring your kid in to the doctor and the doctor would, you know, do whatever and tap the knees and weigh the child and perhaps give an inoculation or two and then they would run the kid through a brain wand to see how the brain was developing and if the brain showed signs of trauma,
	the parents would have to, well, their behavior would be under significant review because society does not want people being harmed and growing into potential Criminals or worse, people who want to reinstitute a government.
	And so society would attempt to reform, would attempt to retrain, would attempt to intervene in harm towards children.
	And if those children continued to be harmed, the doctor simply would not let the parent leave with the children.
	There would be guards. The guards may be armed.
	People would be called. This would be a confrontation.
	It could get ugly.
	But you don't have the right to harm children.
	You don't have the right to abuse children, and therefore society would simply not allow that to happen.
	So that would be my suggestion.
	As to how these things would be worked out, well, you would aim for 50-50.
	It's a huge amount of resources that would need to be poured into this to sort these kinds of stuff out.
	When people start using children against each other, it is an enormously ugly situation.
	So society would work as much as possible to prevent this kind of thing.
	And if it could not be prevented, then society would work, I think, as hard as it could to find amical ways of resolving it, such as third parties picking up and dropping off the children and so on.
	But if one or both parents proved intractable and destructive, since it's very clear that that would be harmful to the children, the parents would simply be – there would be an involuntary defu of the children according to social standards, and they would go to people who would care for them better.
	That would be my approach to it anyway.
	Excellent. Well, thanks so much for your insight.
	I really appreciate it.
	I'll ask him to listen to this after.
	You're going to post this on YouTube or Zoom.
	Yes. Sorry, if your friend's going to ask it, do you mind if I just spend a minute or two throwing a few words his way?
	Yeah, that's no problem at all.
	That'd be great. All right.
	All right. And I will say this.
	I'm talking to your friend directly.
	So, listen, first of all, That was really dumb.
	That's obvious. I don't have to tell you that but I just thought I'd mention it.
	Don't have any more children for the foreseeable future.
	Keep it in your pants. That's really what I'm trying to tell you at least for the moment because if you have a crazy chick fetish and I think when we're all young… We do, because judgment is not always the best in your teens, right?
	So if you've got a crazy chick fetish, then keep it in your pants or spank the monkey, flog the bishop, whatever you need to do in order to keep your seed from swimming up the crazy river.
	So that's the first thing that I wanted to say.
	The second thing that I wanted to say, and I say this as a man...
	Who grew up without a father.
	That whatever you can do.
	Whatever you can do. To stay in your kid's life.
	And I know that you're trying to.
	And I really, really respect and honor that.
	Hugely more than I could ever say.
	Not that you don't care about my respect and all that.
	Because I'm just some guy on the internet.
	But I will say that I really hugely respect.
	And I know it's going to be really tough.
	And if your girlfriend is the kind of woman that she sounds like.
	It may be tough for a long time.
	A lot of years.
	And it may feel like you want to give up.
	It may feel like you want to move away.
	But whatever you can do to stay as a positive influence in your children's lives will pay off for them and for you in ways that you just can't imagine at the moment.
	And if you were tempted to bolt and if you did bolt and leave them behind, then...
	I mean, this is what my father did, and he had a crazy wife, let's say, and he bolted, and his life was...
	Well, nobody gets away with anything in life, right?
	We don't need God, and we don't need the devil, and we don't need hell, because the conscience punishes wrongdoers enormously, and I simply say this not...
	Because I think you should be punished or bad or anything like that, but I'm just saying that the short-term relief of getting out of this situation will, in my opinion, I can't prove it to you, but in my opinion, will cost you a lifetime of happiness and the struggle that you're going to have to do to maintain Being a positive influence in your children's lives will pay off,
	will pay off, will pay off in ways that you can't even imagine because you will get such self-respect, you will get such caution around sexuality, and you will get such pride that you will attract entirely different women, and I think people as a whole, into your life.
	So I'm sorry that you have to face these kinds of responsibilities so young, but that is the dangers.
	Of waving around the magic peepee and all of its fantastic juices.
	So I just wanted to say that, you know, hang in there if you can.
	If you can, if you can, hang in there.
	It will pay off for your kids.
	It will pay off for you. And the alternative will be a disaster for everyone.
	So that's my two cents worth.
	It's just my opinion, right? But that's just what I wanted to say.
	All right, Steph. Fantastic.
	Thank you ever so much. I really respect what you're doing.
	You know, keep up the good work.
	You're a really good human being, man, and it's a pleasure speaking to you.
	Thank you. Thank you so much.
	Thank you so much, and I hope that works out with your friend as best it could.
	Fantastic. Cheers. Bye-bye.
	All right. Take care. All right.
	Next. Hello, Steph.
	Hello. Yes, do you hear me?
	I do. Okay, it's Manuel speaking.
	Do you remember me?
	Of course I do. How are you doing?
	I'm doing very well.
	Since a while I wanted to tell you and the people on the show, probably people remember me as the person who introduced himself as a Marxist some years ago, maybe last year.
	And I want to tell you that I don't consider myself anymore as a Marxist because, you know, I've been listening to you, to your podcast and your true news series since, I would say, two years. And I have to admit that I gave up many of the beliefs I had into Marxism.
	And it's what I want to do.
	Sorry, you just broke up a little there?
	I'm sorry, could you just check your microphone?
	you've gone very quiet.
	If it doesn't work, Ah, that's better. Okay, go ahead.
	I just wanted to tell you that I don't consider myself anymore as a Marxist.
	I agree too much with some of your values and the logic you have.
	Well, I really appreciate that and I'm going to ask you what that transition was like but I just wanted to tell you that being an anarchist is way cooler than being a Marxist because Marxism is old hat.
	It's like saying I'm a radical Zoroastrian.
	Marx is like 160 years, 150 years old, right?
	So you can't be a radical Marxist anymore.
	It's like being a progressive conservative.
	And so first of all, I'm really glad.
	And second of all, it's cooler.
	It's cooler. It's hipper.
	And I say this as a bold 43-year-old guy.
	So take it with all the grains of salt that you want.
	But what was it like making that transition for you?
	It's hard to say.
	Of course, maybe I was afraid a little bit of hurting my old comrades, but there were things that were too obvious in my life about freedom, the good, the things I like about free market and those things like this.
	I had to be integrity too.
	Of course, I don't fully consider myself as an anarchist like you, and probably I still like some facts, some issues about Marxism that you don't.
	Maybe in a year I won't have them anymore, but it's enough that I don't consider myself to be a Marxist.
	Well, I appreciate that.
	And if it's any consolation, I went through exactly the same kind of change, or at least a similar one, when it came to objectivism.
	So it's a real challenge to let go of a belief system that has sustained itself.
	And... I mean, there's some great stuff in Marxism, in my opinion.
	I mean, as we've talked about before, in the chat room as well.
	I mean, there's some just great stuff.
	So, obviously, you don't have to throw everything out any more than I had to throw everything out with objectivism, but I certainly appreciate that it's had this effect on you, and congratulations on staying in a conversation, even though it challenged your core beliefs.
	That is, I think, a very, very admirable thing to do.
	So thank you very much, Steph.
	You helped me a lot in my life.
	I'm very, very pleased. Thank you so much.
	And I'm the one who gets thanked, but I think it's really important for everyone who's listening to this, and you as well, to remember that.
	This is a conversation and everyone that I've talked to, everyone that has agreed or disagreed with me is part of what is going on here.
	So thank you and the thanks go out to everyone.
	I'm just part of this, right?
	You could even say that I'm a hub, but a hub is no good without spokes and a wheel, right?
	So what keeps this thing turning is everyone.
	So thank you. I appreciate that.
	I just may add a last comment.
	The big issue I still...
	I agree with Marxism, it's about probably the materialistic critique of the free market and capitalism, but I never read the book Socialism from Ludwig von Mises,
	in which he argues against the labor theory, because for me, I think that for me the labor theory appears to be true, but maybe I'm wrong to think this way, but I will need to read the argument about it.
	Yeah, I think it's worth reading for sure.
	And if you'd like to share your thoughts after you've read it, that would be great.
	But I think that Mises has obviously some very powerful arguments against Marxism, but I wouldn't consider myself an expert on them.
	I just know them in a semi-cursory way.
	Thank you, Steph. All right.
	Thanks, Manny. Congratulations. And it's great to hear from you.
	Either way, whether you agree or disagree, it's real nice to hear from you.
	And are you going to think of making it to the barbecue?
	I wish. I'm thinking about it, yes.
	Oh, good, yeah, because you came before, right?
	Yeah, we met last year in the month.
	Yeah, last year I was there.
	Right, right. Well, I hope that you can make it.
	It'd be great to see you again. Thank you very much, Steph.
	All right, take care, man. Bye.
	We've had some questions in the chat room, which I'm happy to take my rough swings at, but I'm also happy to...
	To hear more callers, which I think should take precedence.
	Hi. Hi, Steph. Hi.
	Hi, Steph.
	Can you hear me well?
	I sure can. Okay, hi.
	Well, it's an honor speaking with you.
	I only discovered you half a year ago through my research for anarchism.
	And you convinced me of a lot of things about that.
	I first met Nietzsche many years ago, eight years ago, and I loved his books.
	But actually, I think I have been a statist for a very long time.
	I believed in the free market, but I also believed that power over others was a good thing.
	And so now with anarchism everything changes but I was very impressed by your approach to the family because I have plenty of problems on that level and it's for that that I would like to ask you some questions.
	Please, I appreciate your kind words.
	words go ahead okay so I am over 30 now and I still live at home and I cannot I cannot believe this is happening to me oh did we lose him Hello? James, did we lose the guy?
	I say to go live on my own, but I still think that when I'm living on my own, I still have a lot of problems to solve.
	I don't know. I find it so strange that I'm not still living on my own, because financially I can do it without a problem.
	You can do one without a problem?
	Going live on my own.
	So I'm now living with my father and I'm over 30 and yes, I have a very bad feeling about that.
	Right, right.
	And why do you think that you're not able to move away if you want to?
	Yeah, well, I'm always searching then for something to live in, but then I relax again and say, look, it's better to live here a few more times because I can do it financially.
	I have a lot of resources, but it's all inheritance money.
	I didn't make the money myself, so I kind of feel very guilty that I'm using that kind of money for consumption as I see it.
	So I really want to make more money before I go and live on my own.
	Right, right, right.
	But, yeah...
	The thing is that...
	I think I have issues with family relationships.
	Look, I've been a tyrannical person myself when I was younger.
	I beat my brothers until they did what I told them to do.
	So I've been that kind of person when I was a puber, a teenager.
	And I think it was because my mother died very young and our father dumped us on a boarding institute and there was no love in our life.
	Nobody that actually gave warm love.
	But when I grew older, when I was 18, I stopped that and I started to apologize myself to my brothers for that behavior and one of them accepted it, the other one not.
	But now I think I am more peaceful but still have a lot of problems.
	What's my question?
	Well, my question, I think it's more that I like it when I hear you, that sometimes you are asking questions about family situations to the people you talk to, and it clears up a lot of issues sometimes, what these people have, the problems they have, and why they have such the life they have.
	Right. Well, I mean, I'm just going to give you my opinions.
	Of course, I don't have any expertise or credentials, but I'm just going to give you my thoughts, at least the questions that I would ask myself, and maybe it will be of some help to you.
	Have your brothers forgiven you for what you did to them when they were younger?
	One of them I think he did, and the other one not.
	Right. You think he did?
	Yes, because we have a very good relationship today.
	It's actually thanks to him that I discovered energy and we talk a lot about important stuff and we have a warm relationship, I would say.
	The other one actually continued.
	When I stopped harassing him, he continued harassing me and marginalizing me and talking me down.
	And then five years ago, I said, look, you really have to stop that because otherwise we ain't going to see each other anymore.
	And he stopped it, but he continued to do it in his surroundings.
	So his wife took that role upon her and she continued to do it.
	So actually a few months ago, thanks to the whole DFOU movement you have going, I took the courage to say, look, I really don't want to be...
	I said to my brother that I really don't want to be in her neighborhood anymore if she talks like that to me.
	If she says things like I'm a freak or she says things like did you do anything useful yet in your life?
	Things like that. So I said to him I don't want to see her anymore and then he got angry and the result is that he doesn't want to see me anymore either.
	So that's what my brother did not forgive me, I think.
	And well, okay, that's the situation, but I feel confident because I'm really sure that they did not treat me very well, as well as my youngest brother.
	They also were hitting on him a lot.
	I just wanted to correct you one thing.
	I think you referred to a defu movement that's not exactly accurate.
	I mean, when feminists would say to women that they don't have to put up with abusive relationships, that's not a divorce movement, right?
	That's just pointing out something that is, I just wanted to sort of, it's not a defu movement, it's just what I wanted to point that out.
	Okay, let me ask you another question.
	If you went to the doctor tomorrow and he said you only have a year to live, how would you spend that year?
	Well, I think I would spend it by stopping my ambitions in my work because I'm putting I think I would spend it by stopping my ambitions in my work because I'm putting And I think I would go to my younger brother, visit him a lot more.
	Because he lives far away.
	And I hope to spend some nice time with him traveling or something.
	And see my friends.
	And don't see some people that I think were not very valuable in my life.
	Yes, that's what I think I would do.
	So you wouldn't still be living at home, right?
	Well, I would then say if it's only a year, I might still indeed live here then.
	Which is quite crazy.
	No, it's not crazy.
	It's not crazy. Now, what are you avoiding by staying at home if you don't want to stay at home?
	What would happen if you moved out?
	What are you avoiding?
	Well, the thing is, I'm not inviting...
	I'm not taking over any girls here because I... I don't know.
	I renovated this room I have, but I think it's...
	I cannot receive a girl here.
	So that's very bad.
	And what was your question, Steph?
	Okay, so are you avoiding dating?
	Yes, I think I'm avoiding serious dating, yes.
	Alright, so what's wrong with serious dating?
	Um... Um...
	I don't know. I think it would be...
	I would have a girlfriend much faster if I would live alone than here.
	Oh, yeah. Look, no kidding.
	I'm telling you, if you say to a woman who has some level of knowledge and insight about human nature, if you say to a woman, you know, I'm over 30 and I'm living in a tortured relationship with my father at home, she's going to be like, thank you for playing.
	Let's make a baby. Next!
	Right? Yes.
	Okay, so why are you avoiding a relationship?
	Well, the thing is, I've never got...
	I only got one girlfriend five years ago for two years, and that was one year good and one year a little bit cold.
	But indeed, other than that, I did not have a warm relationship with anybody.
	So, why?
	Because I think I never got any...
	I want true love when I was younger.
	I think that's the explanation, but it's a good question.
	Why am I avoiding it?
	I really don't know.
	Well, that's the question that I would ask myself, right?
	So it's not that you're staying at home, it's that you're avoiding something else, right?
	If you just focus on staying at home, you're looking at the symptom, in my opinion, rather than the cause, right?
	So you've got to figure out What are you avoiding by hiding out at home?
	And so you don't want to go out into the world and learn a new language.
	And if you have had a loveless childhood for which I have huge sympathies, if you were sent to boarding school, which I also was, though I don't think for as long, for which I have huge sympathies, then you don't speak a language called love.
	You don't speak that language called love.
	And so you're hiding at home because you're going to find it very difficult.
	To learn that language called love.
	But I'm telling you, the longer you wait to learn that language, the less likely you are to be able to learn it.
	Because this is not a language that we can learn when we're 70 or 60 or 50, maybe even 40.
	And I would really urge you to, I mean, as I always say, right, for these kinds of issues, you really need to go and speak to a good therapist, a good therapist.
	A psychologist, a good counselor, somebody that you can dig into these issues and figure out what this loveless existence has done to your heart and to your soul and to your capacity for love and for connection and for security and for feeling like you have something of value to bring to a relationship.
	The people I know who avoid the relationships the most are the people who feel they have the least to bring to a relationship.
	Like it's the same reason I don't go to Sotheby's auctions.
	It's because I don't have a million dollars to buy some useless piece of crap to hang on the wall.
	Right?
	So because I don't have anything of value to bring to an expensive art exhibit or auction, I just don't go.
	And so a lot of people who feel like they just – they don't have something that is really valuable to bring to someone else.
	They're like poor people don't go to Mercedes dealerships because they just don't have anything to offer there.
	And so I would really try and figure out where that came from, what it feels like to feel like you don't have something of value to bring to a lover or to a wife or to children in the future and then really try to work on undoing that damage.
	And that's just my amateur idiot opinion, but I would strongly suggest...
	You know, spend some time with a therapist to figure out what is going on because staying at home to me is just a symptom.
	It's not the actual cause.
	Oh, well, thank you very much, Stefan, for that insight.
	I think you made it very clear that I'm not speaking the language of love.
	It's really...
	I never realized that, actually.
	And that helps me a lot.
	I made an appointment with a therapist, because I also on that level thought it was not for me.
	But now I realize it is for me.
	So I will do that.
	Do you think that I really should then live apart as soon as possible?
	That's something that is certain?
	I would leave that up to the therapist.
	This is my general approach to these things, which you can obviously take or leave.
	I would not have as my goal, my friend, I would not have as my goal any specific action other than self-knowledge.
	Out of self-knowledge, the correct force of action will come.
	Mm-hmm. And you will find out what you need to do.
	But I don't think there's anyone who can tell you what you should do other than attempt to really understand the source of this kind of stuff with you.
	Okay. I also watched only today your movie about Michael Jackson, a short video.
	And yes, I was very impressed by it because, of course, I knew all the stories about Michael Jackson and how he indeed had a very bad childhood.
	But you really hit the nail with me by showing that he was really looking for love By talent.
	And he achieved in that, but then after the stage, he was of course lonely again.
	And that hit the nail with me because now I realize I'm really doing the same.
	I'm putting all my energy in my profession and I am becoming good at that.
	It's not solving anything.
	It's not really giving me a life.
	It's only giving me some talent.
	Yeah, I remember when I first made some money in business, when I first was involved in the sale of a company that I'd co-founded, when I first made some money in business, I was thrilled, I was excited, it was unprecedented, and I did the usual stupid things when you make some money.
	But I ended up, I was living in a condo.
	And the condo had a big and beautiful pool and a jacuzzi, and it had squash courts and so on.
	And I remember one day, maybe two months after I made some money, I was sitting in the jacuzzi, and there was nobody around.
	There was nobody in the swimming pool.
	There was nobody in the jacuzzi.
	There was nobody in the squash courts.
	It was just dead quiet.
	It was, I think, shortly before they closed at night.
	And I was sitting there in the midst of all of this opulence, in the midst of all of this very expensive equipment, and I thought to myself, I thought, well, let's say I end up making a huge amount of money, like a huge amount of money, to the point where this could be my house, you know, with a big swimming pool and a jacuzzi and a squash court, like I could have this kind of house.
	And I thought, you know, if I made...
	Ten million dollars or twenty million dollars or something and I could buy this for my house.
	I could still be sitting here alone with all of that stuff around me.
	And you know, it would make me feel even worse to have all of this stuff, all of this wealth, all of this opulence And to be alone with all of that.
	And then I would go up to a big empty bedroom and I'd watch some TV and I'd wake up the next day and maybe I'd go to work and then I'd come home and I'd eat a meal alone at a table.
	Maybe I'd go down for another swim alone.
	How awful it would be!
	To have a poor soul in a rich house.
	I really, really thought about that, and that really helped to change my priorities in the business world and to focus more on having a generosity and courage of spirit and doing things that terrified and frightened me, which I thought were, and I still think, are good for the world.
	And that changed everything for me.
	Just that moment of reflection.
	I could have all of this stuff and still be so titanically alone.
	And I could even find people who, you know, and I could give them food and drink and invite them over to the hot tub and we could all play squash.
	But deep down I would know that they were there for the toys and not for me.
	And how awful and terrible that would be and how humiliating and sad that I would have to do that.
	And that really had a strong effect and was very much a turning point in my life, just sitting there.
	I could even remember the feel of the bubbles and the temperature of the water and the color of the tiles and the sun was down and it was dark outside and it was just this little bubble of wealth and opulence that I was enjoying.
	On my own. I thought, my God, I really don't want this to be my future.
	And fortunately, I was able to not have that be my future.
	But I think it's easy to mistake money for love.
	And that's a terrible thing to do.
	Yes, okay.
	Steph, the other thing is, through my profession, I'm really not making a lot of money right now, but I'm giving a lot away via blogging.
	But it's very popular and so I feel that I'm building up a career through that and that I can make money off it.
	But still, it's really focused on building my own...
	Well, by giving beautiful things away, it's still building up a profession, a career.
	And I put all my energy in that.
	And it will not give me a lovely relationship, maybe with my audience, yes, but not with some girl in my life.
	So that's really...
	Because you focus on both.
	You are... Giving a lot of value to the world, but at the same time you're putting a lot of energy in building a lovely relationship with your wife and your family.
	Yeah, I think that's right.
	And I mean, I won't go into all of my developments in this area, but I remember too having all of these employees.
	And, you know, some of them were single and some of them had wives and a few of them had children.
	And I remember working late one night and just being at my desk and working away.
	And my employees had all gone home and they'd all gone home.
	To lovers or families and so on.
	And you can have a thousand employees and they may like you, they may hate you, but they go home and you're just part of their day.
	And they go home to the real part of their day, which is their relationship with their kids and their husbands and their wives and their friends and their family.
	And yeah, you can have all of that success, even if it doesn't make you a lot of money.
	You can have all of that success and all of that power.
	And it won't fill one atom of your soul.
	And I don't think that you can be a good person in any sphere without self-love, without self-respect.
	And that's a hard thing to earn in this world because we're all programmed to do things that are not good.
	And so I think that I would really, really recommend that pursuit of self-knowledge.
	And that will change everything.
	Okay. Well, thank you very much for your valuable time, Stefan.
	And, yeah, well, I'm going to continue.
	I'm going to do that.
	I'm very helped a lot by your insight that I'm not speaking the language of love.
	And that's why I really do believe that I have not a lot to offer in a relationship.
	That's why I think I always have to, that my profession is very important.
	And before I have that, I cannot give something of value in a relationship.
	But that's, of course, nonsense, as you have explained to other readers.
	So, yeah, I'm going to do that.
	So, well, thank you very much for your great videos, great blogs, and great insights.
	Thank you very much, and do drop me a line and let me know how it's going, and I wish you the very best of luck, and I wish, I wish, I wish a big waterfall, water slide tsunami of love in your future.
	If you do the work, it's almost for sure you're going to get it, so I wish that for you.
	Okay, thank you very much, Steph.
	Thank you, man. All the best. All the best to you, too.
	Bye. Bye-bye. All right.
	Hello. Hello.
	Hello. Hi.
	Seven? Yes, indeed.
	How are you today? I'm just great, thank you.
	How are you doing? I'm okay.
	I had gotten in contact with you via Facebook.
	I've been listening to your audio book, "Relationships in Real Time." I recently moved to the Washington, D.C. area from Texas.
	I met a girl and I really like her.
	But There's something that I found out.
	I found out that she used to date a black man.
	And I don't know some of her insecurity that's really bothering me because I didn't think that I was really racist.
	And it's just something I want to get over, and I just wanted to find out what you think of this.
	What I think of your girlfriend...
	Is this a girl you're currently going out with?
	Yeah, and it's fairly new.
	It's only been about a month, and that's it.
	And I just found this out, and it's just something to where now it's just...
	It disturbs me because I didn't think that I was really racist.
	And I don't know how to get over this.
	Right. Listen, that's a...
	Kudos for you for bringing that up.
	That's a tough topic to bring up, so I really appreciate you doing that.
	Do you know what it is that bothers you about her having dated a black fella?
	That's what I don't know. I don't know if it's maybe an insecurity thing because...
	You know, because, you know, black men are better in bed.
	When you say better in bed, you basically...
	Sorry, when you say better in bed, is that a euphemism for penis size?
	Well, I've heard that as well, yeah.
	I've heard that as well, of course.
	And then just also, you know, once you go back, you know, or black, you never go back.
	And I just...
	And she's never really been with guys that look like me.
	And it just...
	And now when I see black guys, that's what I think of.
	I think, well, wow, she would go for that guy.
	She would go for this guy.
	Why is she with me?
	And now, I mean, that's all I can think about.
	Right. Right. Right.
	Right. Okay. I'm guessing that you probably haven't.
	You sound like a young fellow.
	You probably haven't read a book called Black Like Me.
	It's a reporter, and it's been many, many years since I read it, but a reporter...
	Who was not black.
	He got skin darkening treatments and he went through the South as a black man.
	And he wrote up about all of his experiences traveling in the South as a black man.
	I think it was in the 60s or 70s, but again, it's been a long time since I've read it.
	And I only really read... I read two, I only really remember two aspects of it.
	One was how hard it was for him to find a washroom that he could use, right?
	He's somewhere downtown, he needs to take a pee, he can't go to a restaurant, certain washrooms are white only, and what a hideous thing it is.
	But the thing that really stuck out for me in that book, which is, I think, relevant to what you're talking about, is that he got a lift from a white guy.
	And The white guy, of course, thinking he was black, began asking him all these questions about sexuality.
	And he had this belief that, you know, as a black man, you must have this just wild sex life.
	You know, that no inhibitions and just crazy, nutty, you know, I can't even remember what, but it's just, you know, because everybody knows that the black culture is so sexual and blah, blah, blah.
	And this stereotype is played into even now.
	There's a Ray Bradbury story about a baseball game where the whites are all anal.
	Sorry, this is probably the wrong phrase to use when talking about wild sex.
	But the white guys are all cramped and sunburned and stuffed into their little white uniforms.
	And the black guys are all tall and lithe and at ease with themselves physically.
	And I think you just have to look at the difference between the way George Bush Jr. and Barack Obama walked to get a sense of that difference.
	And black guys are supposed to be really great at dancing.
	And a friend of mine who was black was at a party and all the white guys were up dancing, the usual white guy dodging a broomstick being thrown from the ceiling dance.
	And he was like, oh, you know, I get up to dance and all the white guys are like, oh, shit, here comes a real dancer.
	And I don't want to be that guy. I'm not that great a dancer, but I suppose I have to be because I'm black and...
	And if you've seen the movie, oh God, what was it called?
	It was the movie about Jerry Lee Lewis, Great Balls of Fire with Dennis Quaid.
	Not a very good film.
	But at the beginning, right, there's this scene where there's a black hoedown hootenanny in the south and the women are all grinding up against the guys and it's all very sexual.
	And this is a stereotype that is played up quite a bit in sort of, I think it's in white perceptions of black culture.
	That it's hyper-sexualized and loosey-goosey and all that sort of stuff.
	And, I mean, I don't think it's true, obviously, but that may have had some impact on your thinking about black men or black women or black sexuality, that there is this feeling that there's this really repressed, white, Puritan, Protestant culture that...
	Can't do anything useful with an erection except curse it in the name of Jesus and Mary.
	And there's this idea, I think, that the black culture is so sensual and so relaxed and so physical and so raw and sexual and so on.
	And it's a little bit played up, I think.
	I mean, look at all those rap videos and so on.
	So you may have, I mean, it may not be exactly racism, and I hesitate to use that word with anyone, particularly somebody who's got the courage to bring up this kind of topic, but I would say that it may just be that there's a bunch of cultural stereotypes floating around in your head that...
	I mean, I thought for many years off and on about that scene in Black Like Me.
	Like, what was this white guy doing thinking that these black people were having all of this just astounding sex and all that kind of stuff?
	Like, what sort of projection was that going on?
	So I just sort of wanted to point that out, that there may be a lot of cultural influences on your perception of what life was like with the black boyfriend.
	But my suggestion would be, for what it's worth, my suggestion would be to say to her, what was it like having a black boyfriend?
	I've never had a black boyfriend.
	I'm assuming you haven't either.
	So what was it like?
	And just be honest and say, you know, I've had these thoughts, you know, like, both metaphorically and physically, what if I don't measure up, right?
	Well, she did have a bad experience with him, you know, the way that he had treated her.
	And, uh... So, I mean, I guess, you know, and so, I guess that somewhat made me feel better.
	It's just...
	I don't know if I... Wait, sorry.
	You felt better that she'd been mistreated?
	Hang on. Wait a sec.
	Let me make sure I'm just saying that.
	Well, just...
	Of course, I don't feel good about her being mistreated, but it just...
	It just... I don't know.
	It just... It made me think, well, okay, well, then maybe she's not...
	She's not going to go for another black man because she was mistreated.
	Of course, I didn't want her to have been mistreated.
	I don't know. I just don't know.
	No, no. See, you don't want to solve your insecurities by thinking that she's now going to have an aversion to black men because she was mistreated by one, because that's saying that we should judge all black men by the actions of one, right?
	So you don't want to try and solve your problem that way, right?
	You're right. You're right.
	I mean, you need to face up to...
	I mean, in my opinion, right?
	Just face up to the...
	There's some part of you that is threatened.
	I guess it's not romantically or because she was treated badly, but perhaps it's more specifically sexually, that is threatened sexually by, I don't know, the black mamba snake you think is wrapping itself up your girlfriend's legs at some point in the past, right?
	Or something like that, right? I mean, but I think it's...
	I mean, I think it's a myth. I don't know much about penis sizes, but my understanding is that the myth of the...
	This is definitely going into a mix at some point, I'm sure.
	It's some great music, right?
	The myth of the black penis size.
	I think it comes from the fact that when Europeans, and I would assume this is British people, when the Europeans first went to Africa and they saw these, you know, big black swinging hedonkodonks, that they were kind of shocked.
	But that's because, you know, these people didn't wear underpants.
	They were out there in the sun and things just naturally dangle when they swing around for a couple of years.
	So I think it's a myth more so than it is truth.
	I mean, what the hell do I know?
	But that's something I remember reading a long time ago somewhere.
	Well, and it also, I mean, but it also, not just the sexual thing, but, you know, I mean, I grew up in Texas.
	and it's just...
	I just was always kind of taught that that's not right.
	The first girl I ever kissed was a black girl when I was 10 years old.
	My father found out about it and he made fun of me for kissing a black girl.
	And I was so embarrassed.
	I was 10 years old and I was so embarrassed that I'd never thought about being with a black girl since that point.
	And And so now it's just, you know, and I think of her being with a black man and it really, it grosses me out.
	And I don't want to be that kind of person.
	Okay, so you're saying that because your father mocked you for kissing a black girl when you were 10, that you feel kind of grossed out by that?
	By that idea of sort of interracial romance?
	I think that may have sparked it off, you know, because I enjoyed it.
	I remember being 10 years old.
	It was my first kiss. I loved it.
	Right. And I just, and I think from that point, I'd never, you know, and I've seen women, you know, black women that I've been attracted to also.
	So it's like this, I don't know.
	Look, if you have a history, and again, I don't want to use the term racism with your dad, but just based on what you're saying, he may have had some level of discomfort.
	If you remember that vividly enough, and of course, one's first kiss is very...
	It's very memorable, and it's a very powerful moment, of course.
	And so if your father mocked you in a quasi-racist way for kissing a black girl, that would have had some significant effect, I think, on you.
	And when you say you're disgusted by the after effects of that, it may be more to do with the reaction of your father than something else, right?
	So I would really start to examine that.
	I would start to examine that from a familial relationship and say, okay, well, what is my family's history with other cultures, other races, and so on, and what have I inherited from that that is maybe having an effect on what's occurring for me at the moment?
	Right?
	So it's a big...
	I mean, if you bring up your dad in your first kiss, right?
	So it's a big and deep issue that has a lot more to do, I would guess, with family stuff than it would be with, you know, the general cultural nonsense that I was talking about earlier.
	Okay.
	Now, if I can't get over this, I mean, I should just pull out of the relationship, right?
	Yeah, I think I just advised an earlier guy to pull out as well.
	Well, I mean, I don't think anyone can tell you that, but I do think that if this woman is a good woman and you really like her and so on, then I think that you will really regret it if you...
	If you end up breaking up with her and later find out that you did so for bad or unjust reasons, I think you'll really regret it, if that makes any sense.
	Okay.
	Good job.
	And it's a young relationship to put all of this stuff on.
	And again, as I always say, I would talk about this stuff with a counselor.
	And if you can find a black counselor, so much the better.
	I would talk about this stuff with a counselor.
	But if you can't get to one or you can't afford one or whatever, then...
	I would talk about it with someone, I guess, other than me now, because we've already talked.
	And if you can't work it out privately or journaling or whatever, talk about it with your father and say, you know, I remember this kiss and now I've got this girl who had a relationship with a black fella and I feel this and I feel that.
	Talk about it with your dad. And failing all of that, or maybe even with that, you can talk to the girl and say, listen, I'm not proud of this.
	And we all have to do this sometimes.
	Look, I'm telling you, you're not alone in having prejudices.
	You're not alone. We're not...
	We don't suddenly pop out with all of our cultural references at the age of 22 or 25 or 30 or whenever we discover philosophy and reason.
	We inherit a lot of stuff from past generations.
	We get a lot of nonsense from the culture.
	All races are equal, but then you see racist stereotypes.
	All the time, right?
	So if you are a Korean guy on television, you have to be picking apart dead bodies in some CSI show, or you have to be a math professor, or you have to be Long Duck Dong, the foreign exchange student from 16 Candles, I think. And so there are all of these...
	We're told everyone's equal, but then there are all of these stereotypes that are consistently going on.
	And the stereotypes are gender-related, right?
	So they say in Hollywood, there are three ages for women.
	There's ingenue, There's District Attorney, and then there's Driving Miss Daisy, and that's it, right?
	So you're a romantic lead, or others, right?
	Or, I think Robin Williams said something like, he was in a movie called Jumanji, I think, which I saw when I was babysitting a friend's kid some time back.
	And he said in an interview about the film, he said, you know, this is the only chance I'm going to get to play an action hero.
	Why? Because he looks like Robin Williams and he doesn't look like Harrison Ford.
	And so even in all the movies, right, you have to look like Brad Pitt or Patrick Dempsey or even Paul Rudd to get the romantic lead.
	You can't look like Danny DeVito and play the action hero.
	So we get all of these stereotypes all the time piling up in our heads.
	And there's no way to avoid having been exposed to them.
	I guess all we can do is rummage through and try and sort out the nonsense from the truth and work with it.
	So you're not the only person who's been programmed to have these kinds of irrational preferences and prejudices.
	We all have to struggle with this, and we all...
	I think at some point have to say to people in their lives, you know what, I'm not proud of this, but I feel this around this person, or I feel this around that person, and I'm not saying I'm proud of it, but it's what's happening, and I'd like to talk about it.
	And I think that's the only way that we can really resolve these things.
	Okay. Well, thank you, Seth, and I wanted to thank you real quick for introducing anarchy to me, the logic of it.
	And I enjoyed your speech at Porkfest.
	And thanks for taking my call.
	You're welcome. And listen, don't feel ashamed.
	I really appreciate the courage that it took to bring this up.
	And if you still can't get over the penis size, I can forward to you the contents of my junk folder, which I think will have lots of solutions for you.
	Okay. I'm just kidding, man.
	Have a great afternoon, and I wish you the very best of luck with this.
	Thank you. Bye-bye.
	All right. Take care, man. Bye.
	Alright, there's one for the archives.
	Coxman Prog Magnificence, that's what we're talking about this afternoon.
	Hey Steph. Oh hi.
	Hi. I had a question for you that you kind of touched on in not the last conversation, but the one before.
	You talked about how you kind of realized that you wanted more of a rich soul and how you started.
	So I'm kind of nervous.
	This is like a scary subject for me because...
	Lately, I've been thinking more about what I can contribute to the world.
	Right. And just so you know, if you think it's a scary subject for you, I just got off talking about penis size.
	Oh, let me not say got off, but I did just reference a lot of penis sizes.
	So trust me, it can't be tougher than that conversation, and I hope that that helps.
	Thank you. That does help.
	Yeah, so I was just kind of wondering if you had any sort of tips on how to, because I'm sure that, you know, I think you even said that it was pretty scary for you as well.
	I keep kind of going over ideas of what I can do and stuff.
	And every time I kind of start to work on something that I'm excited about, I keep switching from being really enthusiastic and feeling like a rockstar and then being completely terrified and questioning what the heck I think I'm doing.
	Does that make sense? I want to make sure I can put this down to something more concrete.
	Can you tell me more specifically the kinds of things that you're talking about?
	Yeah, like...
	Like writing or I've been thinking about podcasting too lately and just kind of in general like putting something that's like uniquely like from me like creatively into the world like trying to kind of make a difference.
	Right, right.
	And now, why do you want to do that?
	Well, I want to do that because I think that it would make me the most happy.
	I think that that's the way that I would be able to achieve the most happiness and satisfaction in life.
	Okay.
	Why do you think that's true?
	Because...
	I'm kind of blanking.
	And the reason I'm asking is that when I lack motivation for something, it's usually because I'm operating under the...
	I call it a reverse umbrella, right?
	So an umbrella, of course, it's raining and you hold the umbrella up and it keeps the rain off you.
	But whenever I'm finding myself...
	Trudging along somewhere, thinking I need to do something, it's because I have a reverse umbrella.
	And the reverse umbrella is one where it's kind of sunny out, but you've got a little cloud of cold drizzle coming down on you from the umbrella you have over your head.
	And the umbrella that you have over your head is some sort of should or some sort of have to.
	So the reverse umbrella that puts clammy cold water down your spine, that is because I feel that I should have I'd be doing X or Y or Z, and therefore I will trudge along and do it, you know, like a soldier going over the edge of a trench in Gallipoli, but I don't have that same organic whole-body process.
	It's just I got my marching orders from some sort of abstract, and therefore I'm going to go and do it.
	And I find that I can kind of get stuff done, but things peter out for me.
	And... That's what struck me as something that may be similar for you.
	Because I think your real question is, how do I link to a commitment that's bigger than me, right?
	And again, I want to put words in your mouth and tell me if I'm way off base, but you want to do something bigger than your history.
	You want to do something that is unprecedented from your past, right?
	Because you were built to be small, right?
	You were built to be controllable, at least according to my memory of your history.
	And you're trying to break with that and do something larger than life in a sense.
	Right, yeah. Yeah, that sounds right.
	I'm not really sure if I have like, and it could be true because I was having kind of a hard time answering your question, but it doesn't really feel like something that I have to do, but it's something that I really want to do.
	Yes, and so my question is, why do you want to do it?
	Because just wanting to do something, again, that's what got the first caller's friend into trouble with the girl, right?
	He wanted to have sex, right?
	So wanting to do something doesn't mean that it's a good idea, and it doesn't mean that you want to do it for the right reasons.
	And having the desire is good, and I'm certainly not saying just blindly oppose desire, but...
	I think when you're looking at doing something that's big and important, where your pride is going to hang on the outcome, right?
	Because if you say, well, I want to do something big, and then you don't do it, you're taking a blow to your pride and to your sense of self-worth and efficacy in a way that if you don't get off the couch, that doesn't happen, right?
	So whenever you're contemplating doing something big or different or grand, it's a risky thing because it's...
	Your self-esteem is going to change based on the results.
	So I think you really want to make sure that you take a good run at it rather than, you know, flunk yourself around for doing or not doing it and having some energy and then not having some energy.
	And I think that can really be a problem for self-esteem, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, yeah, that does make sense.
	So if you're going to go, you know, into a race, then you need to practice beforehand, not just say, hey, I want to do a race.
	I think I'll just drop by with my shorts and run it.
	I know. Yeah, and I totally understand that like practically, but some part of me just expects myself to be able to do something perfectly like the first time.
	Right, right.
	And you also, sorry, the last thing is I would also say that you have to find something that is big enough that it can sustain you.
	Through the endless, seemingly endless tar pits of shit that you sometimes have to wade through to get anything achieved in this world that is of lasting quality.
	Uh... You know, it can be a complete shitstorm trying to do something good in this world, right?
	No good deed goes unpunished, right?
	And the shitstorm takes two forms for me.
	One is that there's just a lot of boring stuff you have to do that is completely uninspiring in which I sort of sit down and just like...
	That is a reverse umbrella, but there's just no way to get around it, right?
	So... I want to be a movie star, but I don't want to get up early.
	Well, sometimes that's when they need you on the set, right?
	So there's just stuff that you have to do that is boring and dull and unpleasant.
	And particularly if you're working in the realm of ethics and philosophy, then you're going to piss a lot of people off.
	That's just natural, right?
	Human society, like the human personality, is full of an extraordinary amount of inertia.
	And it takes a more mature soul than is commonly available in the world to To question and criticize one's own or other's core principles and people resent you sometimes when you do that.
	So the question is, if you're doing it for pleasure, then pleasure won't sustain you.
	Pleasure won't sustain you.
	You have to have something that's bigger than pleasure, no matter how much your pleasure is.
	It simply won't sustain you any more than sexual desire can sustain a romantic relationship.
	Pleasure alone doesn't do it because if you're pleasure-based, and I'm not saying you are, but if you're doing it because I want to do it or I think it's the right thing to do or whatever, then that pleasure won't sustain you when the opposition hits, either in terms of the boring stuff that you have to do or the unpleasant stuff that you sometimes receive.
	Right. Right.
	Well, what would you say is something that would be sustainable?
	Not, like, obviously, you can't tell me, like, what I should do or anything, but, like, what kind of motivations, like, are sustainable, I guess?
	Because if it's not, like, just about...
	I mean, if it's obviously, like, because I want to do something big, I understand that just doing something just because I like to do it, you know, might not be enough because...
	Like you said, of the opposition that I'm going to most likely get.
	I guess I'm confused as to what's left.
	If I'm going to do it for myself, for happiness, or for...
	Because part of me also really just wants to do what I can to make the world a better place.
	Yeah, no, I agree and I admire that, but sorry, come on.
	Yeah, I mean, I was just going to say, but that also kind of seems like you can't just do, like, that's kind of like a martyr lifestyle, like, if I'm not enjoying it.
	Right. So, like, I guess I'm having a hard time seeing, like, where the kind of balance would be.
	Right, no, I mean, it's a great question.
	I guess, for me, it leads the question boils down to, where the fuck am I doing this?
	Right. Wait a sec.
	Okay, I'm closing the show down.
	You're right. I don't have a clue. No, I mean, that's a good question.
	It's a good question. Certainly, I have some answers which I've thought of before and some which have just popped into my head.
	But I sort of want to make sure that I understand where you're coming from before I give you my Nonsense opinions, right?
	So pleasure isn't enough, and so just it'll make me feel good or make me be happy to do it.
	That's not enough because it's boring and unpleasant stuff that works against the pleasure principle.
	But if you're doing it out of a sense of duty, then that's not going to be sustainable enough either because there's not that much pleasure in it, right?
	Mm-hmm. I'm going to invent a new word called plutee, which is pleasure and beauty together.
	So, pursue the plutee.
	That is the message of today's philosophy show.
	Plutee-ness is what you need to immerse yourself in.
	Pursue the plute. That's my answer.
	I mean, I can tell you what's my, what works for me.
	Plutiness is next to baldiness.
	Hopefully, plutiness is in baldiness.
	We are a plutiocracy, anyway.
	I can tell you what works for me.
	I'm a...
	I'm pretty angry about the state of the world, and that's a pretty good fuel.
	I watched a movie that's not great, but not bad, which has got some great speeches in it.
	It's called Network, which is a bit of an older film.
	Yeah, I'm mad as hell, and I'm going to take it.
	And he says, I don't know what the solution is, but the first thing you have to do is to get angry, says this rather magnificent actor who's playing this role of this crazed newsman.
	So I'm definitely driven by a fair amount of anger at the way things are, and at the lateness in the day that previous generations have left the game for us to win.
	That, you know, it's like, I feel like, you know, we're 300 points down, there's six seconds left in the clock.
	Steph, you're in! And it's like, what?
	Are you kidding? Fine.
	And so there is that sense of...
	I'm pissed.
	I'm pissed off. And I'm not even fundamentally pissed off at the state.
	It's like being pissed off at a tiger.
	I'm more pissed off at...
	At everyone who claims knowledge and then weasels about it when you confront them.
	Those people piss me off more than anything.
	I view myself as a fiercely protective older brother to a rather weak-fisted younger brother called philosophy, who gets picked on all the goddamn time.
	And that pisses me off.
	Of course, I was a younger brother, so I have some emotional connection with that.
	But to me, philosophy is just the 98-pound weakling who gets kicked all up and down the sandbox.
	And I am fiercely moving in to protect and strengthen philosophy.
	And so the sense of protectiveness and the sense of fierceness and of anger definitely has something to do with me.
	I will also say that for me, there is a sense of being cornered and a sense of desperation.
	I know this all sounds like, hey, join me on the Thelma and Louise car going over the cliff towards emotional horror, but I'm just being honest, as honest as I can about what drives me.
	I wish, I wish, I wish, I really, really wish that I didn't have to do this.
	You know, I really do.
	And... If you're a doctor and you come across a plane crash, you can't keep driving, but you really wish you didn't have to go and do what you were going to go and have to do.
	But you do it, because it's the right thing to do.
	I really wish that this didn't have to be done.
	I wish that libertarian thinkers had had the courage to...
	To confront the family issues rather than mucking about with politics and economics from here to kingdom come.
	I wish that somebody had the balls or ovaries to take that on beforehand.
	That would have been nice.
	It would have helped break the ice a little bit and might have made some real progress.
	I wish that Socrates hadn't succumbed to passive aggression but had instead condemned the state which was killing him 2,500 years ago because then we'd be 2,500 years a little further ahead in looking at this brutal institution skeptically.
	I wish that Ayn Rand had focused explicitly rather than implicitly on personal relationships in her work.
	I wish that objectivism hadn't hardened into dogma, but instead had become a living and breathing pursuit of truth, regardless of the original assumptions.
	I wish that all of that had happened.
	But it didn't.
	It didn't happen. And I wish that my ancestor, William Molyneux, had followed through on his commitment to John Locke to create a secular system of ethics defined entirely by reason, but he didn't.
	And so the baton gets passed down a few generations, and I get to beat my head against the indifference and hostility of the world in that pursuit.
	So there is, to me, a sense of desperation in that I am entirely clear about where the world is going to...
	It's going to go in the absence of principles, in the absence of reason.
	And last but not least, I mean, I think most fundamentally, you know, this is the layers, right?
	So, you know, there's anger, there's desperation, there's cornered, there's frustration, there's all of those sorts of things.
	But, you know, Marissa, deep down, what it is for me, and maybe this is something, I know I'm talking about me and you had a problem, but I hope that this helps, is that...
	Life is just such an amazingly beautiful and wonderful thing.
	And a life of reason and a life of virtue and a life of courage is just such a beautiful and noble thing.
	And I sort of experienced this amazing beauty in my life and this amazing clarity in my life and this amazing sense of passion and purpose and elevation.
	I feel heroic.
	I feel heroic.
	I feel like a guy in a tin can suit of armor on a big horse riding around and rescuing.
	That is a beautiful feeling.
	When you have that depth of beauty that you experience and when you look across the world and you see You know, the haggard misery of people dragging themselves around.
	It's like I live in a world where people move around by clamping their teeth on the sidewalk and dragging themselves forward rather than just getting up and walking or running or, with philosophy, even flying.
	Yeah. When you experience that beauty, and you posted about this recently on the board, right?
	The two years, I think, or so that you've worked has given you a real experience of beauty and possibility.
	And when you have experienced that kind of beauty and truth and the shining elevation of a clear conscience and a well-earned sense of self-pride, To me, it would be entirely wrong at a very fundamental level to not offer that to as many people as you could.
	So we philosophers, we're sitting in a castle overflowing with food in a starving world.
	I can't just sit and munch while the world expires from hunger.
	I just can't do it. I have to go out with the food.
	And that creates opposition and that creates hostility and that, you know, but the reality is there are lots of people out there who are starving, who know that they're starving, but don't know the difference between the berries that feed you and the berries that kill you.
	And I know that and I can bring that to people.
	I can't sit in my house of love and beauty and plenty and joy and intimacy and love.
	I just can't sit here and watch the world get sicker and sicker.
	I have to go out.
	I have to go out. And to me, that's just a UPB thing.
	You know, I urge people...
	To talk about this show.
	I urge people to donate.
	I urge people to help out in whatever way they can.
	Because that's a UPB thing for me, Marissa.
	I mean, imagine.
	Imagine not that you're somebody in a castle overflowing with food and luxury, but somebody out there on the starving, bony-winged streets of want, just pecking and scrabbling in the earth to find a scrap of food.
	Would you not want someone to come out and help?
	Would you not want someone to come out and rescue you?
	If you were kidnapped, if you were held hostage, would you not want someone to rip the very roof off your confinement and haul you out to freedom if you couldn't do it yourself?
	So for me, it's just a UPB thing.
	It's not about my needs fundamentally, although I do definitely want to share the happiness that I have worked so hard to achieve.
	But I think that, but for a different set of circumstances, it could so easily have been me down there in the mud.
	It could so easily have been me down there being trampled.
	Under the blunt hooves of high privilege, it could be so easily me out there, lost in the wilderness, hungry and cold, miserable, shivering, mute.
	If I hadn't been born in the country that I was born in, if I hadn't been born in the time that I was born in, if I hadn't been born speaking the language that I speak, if I hadn't been born with my particular and perhaps peculiar mental gifts, Then it would have been me.
	And the very high odds are that it would have been me out there.
	And I can't, you know, reach people in Africa, maybe, right?
	People in the Mongolian hinterlands, right?
	But I can reach people who can get this, who have access to the web, who have access to this kind of stuff.
	And because it was so close to being me, if I hadn't had a particular set of circumstances and exposure to a particular set of people and a particular set of thinkers, I wouldn't have achieved the happiness that I have.
	What a close call it was for me.
	What a lucky chance it was for me.
	I happened to inherit a lot of money in a hungry world, so I'm going to use that money to feed everyone who wants food, who I can help.
	And if I were on the other side of these castle walls, down there in the moat scrabbling to find a shriveled little frog to eat, you know, how much would I be desperate for somebody to ride along and pick me up and set me on my own horse and feed me and hold me?
	And that's what drives me.
	Thank you so much for sharing those.
	That was really inspiring.
	And a lot of that definitely resonated with me.
	And I think, you know, obviously I'm really glad that you do feel heroic because I think that what you're doing absolutely is heroic.
	And, yeah, I mean, I was just thinking last night when I was, you know, trying to figure out what I'm going to do with all of this knowledge that I have.
	And, you know, I was just thinking just, you know, How awesome it is that I was exposed to Freedomain Radio and Alice Miller and Nathaniel Brandon and so many fantastic resources that really made the hugest difference in my life.
	I really want to give back.
	To answer your question in the beginning, that really is what I really want to do.
	I feel like I've reached, not that I'm done, I mean obviously you're never done, but I think that I have reached a point where I really have built some genuine value and I want to give it back.
	Right, yeah, and that is to me the most power.
	That's what sustains me. That's what sustains me when I don't want to do another podcast or I don't want to answer another email or I don't want to do another stupid amount of technical dicking around on the FDR site or get negative letters or whatever.
	I mean, it's just...
	I mean, there's always somebody over the hill who needs help.
	And I will also say that this is nothing to do with false modesty because I'm very confident about what it is that I've been doing.
	I also think that it is...
	I think, frankly, that you and the listeners are more heroic than I am.
	Because this is my job, right?
	This is still your hobby. Now, whether it'll turn into something else for you, it remains to be known.
	But this is your job.
	This is my job, right? So I'm at least getting some money for doing what it is that I'm doing and some exposure and making some progress that way.
	But it's more heroic to do it in the absence, right?
	Where it's mostly costly. And not as much of a benefit, at least in material form.
	And, you know, I get all the positive feedback and validation of, you know, letters and emails and speaking invitations and so on and seeing the numbers steadily grow up, go up.
	So I'm getting all of that positive validation, which is not the case for a lot of the listeners.
	Well, it's not the case for any of the listeners relative to what I'm experiencing and receiving.
	So it's harder for listeners.
	It's harder for you. And where it's harder, there's all the more heroism.
	The other thing, too, is that I didn't get the whole package all at once, right?
	So I got it in dribs and drabs, right?
	I got some... Objectivism, and then I got some libertarianism, and then I went to a couple of conferences, and then I sat on it for a while, and then I did some business.
	So I got it in dribs and drabs.
	And of course, you know, people can listen to as many or as few podcasts as they want, but it's more of the whole picture, so to speak, coming down the pipe, and that's more to deal with.
	So I'm always sensitive to the reality that if I had heard Free Domain Radio when I was 25 or whatever, or 23 or whatever, that would have been a very, very challenging thing.
	To experience. Much more challenging in many ways, although I wish I had heard it.
	It would have saved me a lot of time, but it's much more challenging.
	In many ways than what occurred for me.
	And you could say, well, it's like a slow Band-Aid versus a fast Band-Aid.
	It would have saved me a lot of years if I'd heard Freedom in Radio when I was younger.
	But I didn't.
	But it's more heroic to do it in the absence of the kind of feedback that I'm getting and in the absence of the compensation that I'm getting from donators.
	So I just hope that you, you know, if you're going to give that pie called admiration, I hope that you keep by far the largest piece for yourself.
	And this is true for all the listeners.
	Thank you. I will.
	Good. Good.
	Because you deserve it. Great.
	Thank you so much. That's really, really helpful.
	I'm so glad. And keep me posted about what you end up doing.
	And take your time. You know, there's no particular rush.
	It's way better to plan, you know, ready, aim, fire, not ready, fire, huh?
	What did I hit? So I would definitely take time.
	Thank you. Alright, so we come hoving in to 6 o'clock.
	It's 6 o'clock on a Sunday.
	The BCF still talks.
	Last call, I guess, relatively soon.
	Oh, first of all, I wanted to say thank you to the very kind listener who...
	It was very nice enough to invite myself and their family over yesterday.
	It was a great deal of fun, and I really did appreciate it.
	His daughters played with Izzy in a way that was beyond charming and fun.
	So thank you so much.
	Don't forget to check out the barbecue, ameando.com forward slash FDR2010. Please let us know if you're going to be able to come, and we hope that you can come and have your little gold scotch up here in Mississauga for at least a day or two a year.
	And last but not least, let me get the info for this.
	I will be doing a speech in Toronto.
	Yes, I will indeedy.
	which is on the 8th of September.
	It will be in the evening, and it's for the Ontario Libertarian Party.
	So I did speak there a few years ago, and I hope that you will be able to come by, and it will be a speech and a Q&A thing and all that kind of good stuff.
	So I hope that you will get a chance to come by, and it's at Scallywags, 11 Sinclair West.
	Yes.
	In Toronto, 7 to 11 p.m.
	So I hope that you will be able to come and I look forward to meeting you there.
	And yeah, if you're coming around, if you're coming around, please do, if you're around Toronto, around Mississauga coming through, always happy to chat, always happy to sit down and have a coffee or meal with a listener.
	I've done it a whole number of times and it's always been a distinct pleasure to meet you all.
	So I hope that you will come by.
	So, have yourselves a completely fantastic and wonderful week.
	Thank you so much for all of your continued support.
	I really, really do appreciate it.
	Thank you to all of the new subscribers.
	It's very, very nice to see that.
	Subscriptions are great because it gives me some predictability in terms of...
	Income, and I really, really do appreciate that.
	And we are doing some magnificent things in the world, and I think let's all remember to take a bow and enjoy the success of what is, mostly due to the listeners and the technology, the greatest, greatest philosophical conversation in history.

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