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May 11, 2010 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:10:15
1661 Overcoming Job Interview Anxiety - A Listener Role-Play

A listener wishing to upgrade his career role-plays a challenging job interview situation.

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Alright, well I guess let's get started.
Thanks so much for joining us.
This is a call about performance anxiety in job interviews.
And I appreciate the listener making it an open call.
I think that's a good thing because I certainly know that it's something that affects a lot of people and I've certainly never been immune to it completely myself and I'm not sure we should be.
But I was wondering if you could just tell us a little bit about your history with interviews and sort of what happens in them that has made you anxious.
Well, actually, I mean, my history has been pretty good with them.
I mean, I feel...
Usually I feel really confident about it.
That's why this is something I really wanted to have this call about is because in the past when I've had an interview, it's like if I get that far...
I've never not gotten a job where I've had an interview.
But for this one, it's different because the position is something that I haven't really done before and it's, I think, going to be a more challenging position than anything I've really done before.
And that, along with being in a new place, plus, you know, just fears about the economy and it's like, there's a lot of, you know, disaster scenarios where it's like, if I don't get this job, I'm not going to get a job and I'm going to be I think all of that is what's combining about it.
Because, like I said, my history with interviews themselves has been pretty positive, actually.
Let me make sure I understand your concern.
When you say you're not sure if you're ready for the job, or you're concerned about the leap, right?
So you're going from somebody who's more self-employed, if I remember rightly, to somebody who's more...
This would be a management position, right?
Well, and I'm not sure how much of a management position it is.
It's a project coordinator, is the name of it, which is, yeah, I mean, it's kind of a management position.
I think it is directly under the project manager.
Right, a team lead probably would be closer, right?
Yeah, yeah, something like that.
Like, the responsibilities...
If you got that PDF, a lot of the responsibilities are assigning consultants job-specific responsibilities, establishing deadlines, coordinating communication between consultants and or with department manager, communicating between the consultants and the clients.
So yeah, it's kind of a team lead type of thing.
And it could be conflict-heavy, right?
Right, because it's working with a lot of freelance translators is what I think is going to be going on.
Right, so you're going to have...
I'm not an expert on your field, of course, but this is just based on some management experience that I've had.
Anytime you are floating between people doing work and people expecting the results, there's conflict in the job, right?
Right. Right, right.
Yeah, I mean, because, you know, they're going to want one thing, they're going to expect something else, something's going to be delayed, there's going to be some misunderstanding.
I mean, there is a lot of smoothing of ruffled feathers and calming of the waters when it comes to that kind of stuff, right?
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Okay, okay. Now, I mean, one of the tough things is, you know, they may ask for management experience, right?
Have you ever, you know, managed a team before or have you ever worked with a team before?
My suggestion would be, if you've done ecosystem stuff, just say, sweet mother of God, you have no idea how difficult it is just to manage the voices in my head.
I find that's a good in to help people.
I'm just kidding. Oh, the silence.
Tap, tap, tap. Is this thing on?
No, yeah. But is that an issue that you have, that you're concerned that people are going to say, well, what's your experience?
And you're going to say, I don't know.
Right. Yeah, I mean, that's part of it.
Part of it is also, you know, I've been listening to the calls that you had a while back now about the caller who was moving from doing his own business to going to Atlanta to be a project manager.
Yes, I remember. I was listening to those podcasts and a lot of the things you talk about is having done research in the industry.
I've done that since I found out that I had this interview, tried to find out about the industry and about what the competitors are doing and stuff like that.
It's really hard to find information about the translation industry for whatever reason.
The places where there are Where there is info, you have to pay to be a member of their site to get any info about it.
I'm not in a financial position to where I can afford to pay that.
I don't really know much about the industry.
Other than, you know, I've had a call with another FDR guy that lives in England, and we talked about it some, but that was more about the freelance side of it, not about the, you know...
Yeah, he was going to be self-employed, and so that was a bit of a different situation.
Right. So, let me ask you, do you think that you're ready for the job?
Because, I mean, it's important to figure out if you have anxiety that is, quote, legitimate, right?
I mean, in other words, if I were going to go for a job as a heart surgeon, I would experience considerable anxiety because, you know, I would be just crapping people's innards, right?
Right. Well, as far as the technical stuff goes, entering information to access database and or profitability spreadsheet, that kind of stuff I'm fine with.
The translation stuff itself I'm fine with.
Even assigning job-specific responsibilities, establishing deadlines, I think I can do that.
What do you mean you think you can do that?
Well, these are things that I've had to do before in the past, you know, like create deadlines like when I was teaching English.
I had to, you know, create deadlines for myself.
And like you said, with my ecosystem, it is kind of, you know, working with the whole team.
But, you know, I had to establish deadlines with myself.
But part of it is I have been a team lead before.
But I think at the time, my communication skills were not...
They weren't bad.
It's just that they weren't very win-win, you know?
If that makes any sense.
Just kind of like top-down, this is what needs to be done to do it kind of thing, you know?
And that's not how I want to approach anything in my life anymore, really.
So it wasn't... I'll be honest, the ecosystem work I've done is really minimal.
But even in that case, it's usually kind of one way.
And it's not like giving orders, but it's more like just a lot of questions coming from one side and the other side just knowing all the answers.
Right, right. You know?
Right, okay. So, would it be fair to, like, I'm trying to figure out, you know, it's just us talking, at least so far, right?
So, there's, the tough thing in an interview in some ways, and especially when you're going for a new position, is you want to appear confident, but not cocky, right?
Like, you want to say, yes, I can do this, even though I haven't done it before, but you don't want to sound insane, you know?
Like, yeah, I can be a heart surgeon, I'll just Google it the night before, you know?
Because that's mad, right?
And so when you're going for a new job, going up within the company is one thing, right?
I mean, you get promoted and that's not such a big deal.
Although even in those situations, you'll often have to apply.
But when you're going for a job that is of a new level, then it's tough because you haven't done it before.
You want to impress upon the interviewer that you're confident you can do it But you don't want to sound like you have no way to assess risk, right?
Because, you know...
So does that make sense?
Like, that may be one of the challenges that you might be facing in this interview.
And that's... I think that's something that's totally, like, right on the nose with me because that is part of what I'm afraid of.
Like, I'm like, yeah, I can do this job.
I know I can do this because, you know...
I... Recently I've just kind of been like, you know, if I try and figure out something, there's not a lot that I can't do.
You know what I mean? Like if I put the effort into it, there's nothing that I can't do.
Well, no, you see, I think that may be a little on the cocky side.
There's nothing that I can't do.
Can you be a Calvin Klein model for underwear?
If so, please send me your picture for my private clothing.
No, but I mean, this is where you don't want to go too far, right?
And I've been putting my interviewer hat.
I know we're not mocking an interview or whatever, right?
But I've been putting my interviewer hat on.
And it's stuff like that that always makes me a little leery as an interviewer when somebody says, there's nothing that I can't learn, there's nothing that I can't do.
It's like, well, you must have been doing some easy shit then because there's lots of stuff in this world that's really tough to do, right?
Right, right. And that's my question, right?
So you went from uncertainty to overconfidence.
You know, I think I can do anything that I've set my mind to.
And I think that may be one of the things that you might need to center a little bit on, if that makes sense.
Well, no, and that's what I mean.
Like, that's kind of a general thing that I've been approaching things with a lot recently.
But with this interview, like, I haven't had that much at all.
And I don't know...
Sorry, haven't had that much....that cockiness, you know, which is probably a good thing.
But it's gone the extreme opposite spectrum, like, oh, my God, I don't know what I'm going to say.
And There's nothing that I can say that's going to be enough to get this, right?
It's just extremes.
Right, right. So, like, I know I can do it versus, you know, there's nothing, there's no way I can convince the other person that I know how to do it, right?
Right, right, right.
And look, it's a big challenge that you're facing here.
So I just want to sort of stop for a moment and empathize with and really sympathize with the challenge that you're facing, right?
So you're looking to move up a skill level and a significant skill level, right, in an economy that's tough.
And a tough economy means that people are shopping downstairs for their jobs, right?
So you have people who, you know, have 10 years experience who will take an entry-level position because they got to eat, right?
And it's one of the things that has occurred.
One of the reasons why employers love a recession is you get really high, high quality people for relatively little coin because everybody's just kind of desperate for work.
That's why the management class, so to speak, has little problem with the recession in some ways.
And of course, they find it harder to sell and so on.
But when it comes to staffing...
I mean, it's a dream come true, so I just sort of wanted to point that out.
It's a really difficult thing that you're facing here, and I do appreciate that you think I can help, and I hope that I can, but I just wanted to point out, like, your anxiety is not irrational.
Yeah, I mean, I've gotten rejected for, you know, I have a college degree, not that it means much, but I've been rejected for $10 an hour jobs because of not having experience in the field.
And it's like, this is like a $10 an hour entry level job, you know?
So, yeah, I totally understand what you're saying there.
I think that's Well, sorry, just to maybe set you straight on that, and I, of course, have no idea why you were rejected, and maybe that's why you were, but I can tell you that when you're getting $10 an hour jobs and you have a college degree, whoever's hiring knows that you're not going to be in that job for long.
Yeah, yeah, that's something I've also considered for sure.
You're just going to wait out the recession and then skedaddle or get promoted as soon as humanly possible, right?
Right, right. I mean, remember when I was a waiter, when I was a teenager, there were these biddies at this restaurant who'd been waiters there for like 30 years, right?
And the manager had to deal with pimply-faced teenagers like me who'd come in and then be gone in six months or a year and want to go to college or whatever and come bungeeing back and so on.
Whereas these biddies were his steady, dependable, don't need to train, utterly reliable and so on.
And so I just wanted to point that out.
I mean, everybody wants the bitty waiters who are going to be there for 30 years.
But so this may be another reason, right?
College degree, 10 bucks an hour, some professional experience.
He's not going to last. So I'll just get someone who I don't have to retrain and I don't have to hire somebody else because it's really expensive to hire someone.
And so you want somebody to be there for the long run.
Right, right. Yeah, that might, that probably is a big factor in it too.
But yeah, it's just, it's been kind of, you know, frustrating at that level thinking, you know, I just need to get something that where I can eat, you know, and I did get something temporary, but it's just not, it's not looking like it's going to last very long.
So I need to get something more permanent as soon as possible.
Alright, so do you want to try an interview?
Sure. Alright, so I'll be Barbara.
So, okay, so I will be the interviewer, and I'm going to interrupt you because I don't want to give notes at the end.
You understand, this is just my, I mean, I have some experience interviewing, some significant experience hiring, but I'm not an expert in your field, so this is all just going to be kind of nonsense, but I think it'll be helpful in terms of getting some feedback for your interview on Thursday.
Okay. All right.
Well, thank you very much for coming in.
Blah, blah, blah. Small talk, small talk.
Look at my tattoo. It's like a butterfly.
It's right above my buttcheeks.
That's great. Sit down. Now, tell me why it is that you think you can do this job, and what are you bringing to the table?
Okay.
Well, I think I can do the job because I've...
In the past, a lot of the work that I've had to do has been around trying to define a scope For example, when I worked in a coffee center, I'd get a customer's job.
That's basically the scope of what we had to do.
From there, I had to deal with how much What machines I could use while the – based on what other orders we were doing and the priority of the orders that were going on there.
So what kind of machines were available.
And then, of course, there's always a deadline with those kind of jobs.
And a lot of times the deadlines were pretty – You know, pretty short.
So it's something that we had to work around and work with the other people in the department to do.
Also in teaching, kind of same kind of things, you know, as far as there's the deadline.
There's not so much a deadline just as, you know, within the one year that the students are in your class.
You have to come up with...
What is going to be the goal of your teaching?
What are they going to achieve by the end of that?
So that's kind of the time thing.
And the scope, just really what do they have to do?
And then resources are just whatever you have around you.
What materials do you have access to?
I worked in a public school, so there was not...
I didn't have any extra money to buy anything, so you really had to work with what you had.
My position was the lowest on the level of new budget spending, so it was really doing what you can with what you had in order to achieve the goal of getting your students to learn what it is that you have to teach.
So I think I can apply that the same thing to translation, which I've also had some, you know, personal experience with freelancing.
All right. And how did you feel about your response there?
It was long and rambly.
It was fairly long, fairly rambly, and you got to the translation stuff at the very end.
And listen, this is an annoying process to go through, so I appreciate your patience.
I know it's like, well, try it again, try it again.
I mean, it's a little bit annoying, but it really does help to practice these kinds of things.
Yeah, for sure. Alright, so this is what I would do.
I mean, this is what I would do if I were in your shoes.
I would go through the job.
We don't have to do this, right?
But this is what I would go through the job description and try and boil it down to three or four skills that they're looking for, right?
So, I mean, obviously, communication is important.
Resource, finding the right resources and allocating them to the right job is important, right?
So, resource allocation, communication, there'll be, you know, detail-oriented because you're doing proofreading and so on.
And, you know, there's a couple of...
So, detail-oriented resource management, there will be some management stuff.
And so... And some software knowledge and so on.
I try and boil it down to three or four things that they're really looking for.
And it sounds weird to do it, but it is important.
There's something I saw once in a Jerry Seinfeld DVD. I think it's called Comedian or something.
They followed him around in clubs.
And he said he was talking to, I think it was Patrick Quinn.
He was an old Saturday Night Live guy.
And Jerry Seinfeld's act had bombed and he said, oh, I made a rookie mistake.
I tried to ad lib.
I tried to go off book.
I tried to be spontaneous rather than going through rehearsed material.
And the way I see it is that if Jerry Seinfeld, after the Seinfeld TV show and 20 years of doing comedy, if he's nervous to go off book, During a live show and it's considered to be a rookie mistake, that to me is that it's fairly important to prepare.
I know I'm the rambly guy in the podcast, but this is different because this is a job interview.
So, you know, preparation is key.
So, let's just say, if you can just jot these down, let's just say that there are three points that you have to hit.
And you can pick what they are because you know the job requirement better.
But what do you think, if there was the top three things that they're looking for, what do you think they would be?
I think it's exactly as you said.
It's the good communication skills, being detail-oriented, and being able to manage the resources in an efficient manner.
All right. And find and manage the resources, right?
Right. Find and manage, yeah.
Right. Okay. Now, if you had to number those in importance, how would you number them?
Looking at the responsibilities of the job, I think good communication skills is probably top.
With the find and manage resources, a really close second.
Right, right.
The detail-oriented is also, you know, up there, but I think three...
Okay. Now, detail-oriented is fairly clear.
Finding and managing resources is a little more detailed.
Good communication skills, I would suggest breaking it down into one or two or maybe three kinds of good communication skills is like good worker.
I mean, it's hard to sort of fix what that exactly means.
It doesn't mean much, right? So I would, if I were you, I would say, well, what kind of good communication skills are going to be needed?
Well, making sure that the scope of the project is really clear to both the client and to the team that you've assembled, right?
So making sure that the scope of work is really clear.
scope or cost, right?
Because that's why you need people like this because projects always change.
There's no project ever.
It's not a train.
You need to put it on the tracks and it arrives at the next station.
It's always like a meteor strike or something, right?
So I would say, you know, the clear communication of needs and requirements, updating, conflict resolution, you know what I mean?
Like keeping the lines of communication open.
And also acting as a buffer between, in a sense, the cubicle guys and the customers, right?
I mean, this was my job in IT sometimes, so maybe I'm projecting a bit, but...
The programmers didn't like talking to the customers, and the customers didn't like talking to the programmers.
So they would both talk to me, and I would be the lubricant, right?
I agree with you about the ranking for what that's worth and what I would do is I would do 2, 3, 1.
So I would number the most important ones and then I would start off with the second most important and give it a fair amount of time.
I would then go to the least important and give it a shorter amount of time and then I would make sure that I ended up with the most important so that I left him with that knowledge that I'd really gotten when he would have a chance to talk.
Right, right. And you could, I mean, you could do it the other way.
You could do one, two, three, so he gets the most important one first, but I like ending with the most important.
I think that's, you know, you say it's a chase scene to the end of the movie.
So that would be my suggestion.
So if you want to do that real quick, just on a piece of paper, we can try taking each of these answers one by one.
Yeah, I actually, while you were talking there, I Jotted them down in a notepad.
Oh, fantastic. Okay.
Now, I wouldn't give myself more than 30 to 45 seconds per one.
And the reason that I say that is that A, less is more, and B, you want to show that you're a good communicator when you're talking about being a good communicator, right?
Right, right. There's no point saying to somebody in a long, rambling way, I'm very concise, right?
That's why I never say, I'm very concise.
But do you see what I mean? Yeah.
Right. Okay.
And then you end by saying, I'm just giving you a brief overview.
If you have more questions, I'm happy to elaborate further, but I just wanted to keep things concise up front.
Right. Now that makes sense.
Okay. All right.
So let's try that again.
Okay. Once more from the top with feeling.
Okay. So I say, well, why is it that you feel that you would be good for this job?
Okay, well, when I worked in a copy center, I had to learn how to find what the right machines for customers' jobs would be, and also...
I'm sorry to interrupt you, and the thought just struck me, and I really do apologize, because I know we're doing a role play, I keep jumping out of it, but I think it's worth, and I remember doing this in a couple of interviews, and I found it really effective, I think it's worth saying what it is you're about to say.
Okay. So if you say, you know, in looking through the job, I see that there are three, the three most important requirements you have are this, this, and this, right?
And so, you know, I'll talk about those and then very briefly, and then you can ask me more questions.
Okay. Because you're kind of showing, the important thing in an interview is to not tell people what your skills are, but to show people what your skills are.
Do you see what I mean? Okay.
Right, right. Right, so if you're going to be evaluating projects and being a concise and effective communicator and, you know, boiling down information to its essential parts, you don't want to tell someone you can do that.
You want to show them you can do it.
And almost like the words are unimportant in a sense, right?
Right, okay. All right, so let's try again.
Okay. So should I just go?
Yeah, just go. If I want to do my...
Okay, all right. Alright, so while I was looking over the materials for the job, I found there was really three main skills that I need to have.
Resource management, being able to find and allocate the right resources, being detail-oriented, and being a communicator, being a good communicator such that I can make sure the scope of any project is clear, Actively communicate with those changes and kind of be a buffer if any conflicts come about between the clients and our consultants.
First of all, I just want to say that's fantastic.
How did that feel relative to your first answer?
It felt a lot better, yeah.
Good, good. Great.
I know it actually would help me to be able to say that at the beginning just to make sure that I get my note hit every point.
Yes, don't write it on your hand.
It can't be tempting. A, that was great.
I just had one or two points to say.
Don't use such that. That's an awkward phrase, but the way that you do that is you've got to practice these answers and throw a couple of other things in the mix just in case they come up and say, well, there's something else that's important that you've missed or whatever.
But the key thing is practice because you use a lot of errs and ums and like, hell, I'm one to talk, right?
You use a lot of errs and ums, and you use awkward phrases, you know, where I think you said, blah, blah, blah, such that, so-and-so, and you never sort of hear people say that, and that indicates that you're not fluent in the answer.
And of course, you wouldn't be, because this is just the first time we're trying it, but I just wanted to point out those two tiny little things, but it was worlds apart from the first answer you gave, and congratulations, I'd say, you are a fast learner.
Of course, right? You listen to this show, right?
Okay, so did you want to try that first one again or do you want to go to the second one?
I'm not sure what you mean.
Oh, I'm sorry. Do you want to start the answer again from the top, or do you want to move on to the next point?
Oh, you mean I've already talked about the resource management with the copycat?
Yeah, it's up to you. I'm happy to do it either way.
No, I think that was fine.
I mean, what do you think about what I said before was that, like, part of the anxiety is like, you know, working in a copy center, it's pretty lowly compared to like a project coordinator's job, is just how I feel about it.
And so, I mean, I think it's applicable, but I'm also kind of hesitant about talking about that kind of thing.
Right. No, I totally understand that.
Okay, so I think that it's worth extracting the principles.
So you could say, when I worked at the copy center, I learned these and these and these skills, which I found to be applicable, which I find to be applicable to this job.
I mean, the copy center job may not have taught you those things directly, but I found, you know, and I found that I was very good at these kinds of things.
Right. Okay, okay.
I mean, don't get me wrong.
I completely agree with you.
But remember, everyone who gets a job that's any kind of promotion is going through exactly what you're going through.
And employers know that, right?
And so what they're looking for is somebody who's not bullshitting.
Obviously, if you bullshit, the only thing worse than not getting hired if you're a bullshitter is getting hired if you're a bullshitter.
Because then you're working for somebody who likes bullshit.
And that's not going to be fun for anyone.
I'd rather be a panhandler, right?
And I'm not saying you're doing that, right?
But yeah, in the copy center job, we'd have stuff coming in all the time.
And time management is really important.
And a copy center is all about detail.
Now, I would also mention something, because this is a customer-facing job, right?
So one of the things I always appreciated when I was interviewing someone was their focus not on the job, but on the customer.
So if I were you, I would say, assuming this is true, I would say, When I worked in a copy center job, the thing that I really learned was that, in a sense, for me, it's like a blur of paper going past.
Yeah, copy, copy, copy, bundle, bundle, throw it over the counter, and so on, right?
And so for me, it was just one of many jobs, and it was a blur.
But for the customer, that was the only thing he was coming for that whole day.
And so it was really, really important to him, while for me, it was just kind of a blur.
And so I had to be a really good employee there and to really be effective.
I had to reorient myself to remember, no, this is the customer's business card.
This is what he's going to be handing out.
So he really cares about it.
And this is the customer's menu.
And I don't know what you were making, right?
But But this was all really important, and so I really learned to look at it from the customer's viewpoint, and that's why detail was so important, and precision was so important, and no bleeding edges, and no hair on the photocopier or whatever, right?
Does that sort of make sense? No, yeah, and actually, it sounds like that would be more suited towards the detail-oriented part of it.
But detail-oriented is for the customer.
That's sort of what I'm saying, right?
Because everything is for the customer.
And so whenever I would get a programmer in who wanted a job...
If all they talked about was algorithms and DLLs, then I'd know that all they really thought about was the code and the computer.
But when I had an employee in who talked about the need for a pleasing and intuitive interface for the customer, I knew that I was onto something special.
That person, I would remember, because they were remembering that everything we do ends up sitting...
In front of a customer, and the customer doesn't care about the DLLs, and they don't care about the code, and they don't care about the subroutines.
They only care about the interface and that it works.
Since this job is customer-facing, I would also focus on putting yourself in the customer's shoes.
Nobody cares about detail-oriented, right?
They care about a happy customer, if that makes sense.
Right. So it's a means to an end.
Whereas a lot of people, when I was interviewing them, they'd look at each of these skills as an end in themselves.
Like, I'm really detail-oriented.
I like to get things right. I'm very precise on this and that.
But there was never any mention of the customer, right?
Right. No, that makes a lot of sense.
And I mean, that's, I think, one of my primary things is, you know, primary responsibility is communicating with the customers, with the clients.
Yeah. Right, and of course, I mean, I spent some time in copy shops when I was younger because I was a writer and I was printing all this shit, right?
And there's lots of conflict in copy shops, right?
Really? Well, that's what I saw, which was, you know, customers say, oh, this is a little off-center, this is the wrong kind of paper, the kind of ink, you know, I made these copies, but it didn't come out right, I don't want to pay for them or whatever, right?
Right, no, there's a lot of conflict, yeah, for sure, for sure.
And so you could sort of mention that, you know, I was good at resolving customer conflicts without caving so that we lost money, but finding ways to make it win-win.
You know, all the stuff that I'm sure you did and you're intelligent enough to both do and to communicate.
And all of that stuff, I think, is really going to help mesh you with the job.
Now, I'm sorry, we went off on a bit of a tangent there, and I want to get back to the sort of mock interview, which is you being interviewed and me mocking you.
But is there a...
Do you want to sort of take another run at it from the top?
Yeah, sure, sure, sure.
All right, so tell me what it is that you think you would be suitable for this job.
When I was looking over the materials for the job, I noticed there were three real essential skills for this job.
One was the resource management, another was being detail-oriented, and another was having good communication skills, making sure that the scope of the project is clear, actively communicating any changes that happen, and acting as kind of a buffer In case there's any conflict between the customers and the consultants that we're working.
So for the resource management skill, I think I picked those up when I was working in a copy center.
It was a situation where we'd often have a lot of jobs coming in and not much time because a constant inflow of new jobs.
And we had to work out which What machine would we be able to use for each customer's job and use it in such a way that we could actually complete the customer's jobs before they came in to pick them up so that we didn't create any conflicts.
Of course, in the same job, being detail-oriented is essential because this is their For example, their menu.
That's the only thing they came into our store to do was that menu.
If there's one small detail that's wrong on it, there's definitely going to be a conflict.
And of course, sometimes those kind of things happen because I was not the only one in the… All right.
I'm going to have to stop you here because I think you're rambling.
Right, okay. And, you know, sometimes these things happen because I'm not the only...
I mean, he doesn't care about the details of the copy shop, right?
He cares about how those skills are going to translate.
And I hope you don't mind me interrupting.
I suspect it's a difficult thing to do live, right?
But I just sort of wanted to point it out.
Yeah. Okay, so you were talking about resource management in the copy shop.
You said, I think that I learned those skills or I think that I, if something like that, I would be more, I would be more decisive.
You know, whether you have those skills or not, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I would just be, you know, it's, it's okay to be, to be confident about things that you can actually do.
Right.
I don't think I can, I know I can, right.
I know I can walk.
Right.
Tell me what happened for you, in your mind and in your heart, when you began to ramble, if you don't mind me using that phrase.
What was it that was occurring for you when you started to ramble?
I was feeling unsure of how to transition between Going from the detail-oriented to the good communication skills, which is obviously...
Which is kind of ironic, right?
I don't know how to communicate to you that I have good communication skills.
No, and look, I appreciate that.
Look, communication takes a lot of practice.
It's not, you know, it's not like...
Even walking takes a lot of practice, but it's like doing a good tennis serve.
It takes a lot of practice.
So I would figure out the transitions.
I would figure out the transitions and try and find...
And if you find that you get lost, there's absolutely nothing wrong in an interview with saying, wait a second, I think I'm rambling.
Let me just back up and move on to my second point without any elegant transition.
Because they want to know that you can notice these things and not just babble, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I apologize.
It's a bit of a nasty way to put it.
You went babbling, but you know what I mean, right?
No, yeah, I understand.
Yeah, if you've missed the exit, don't just keep driving, right?
I mean, if you miss the exit, it's like, oh shit, I have to turn around and go to the exit, right?
Okay, so let's try it again.
Okay, from the top?
No, it's a good idea.
Okay, so while looking over the materials for the job, I noticed there were three skills that are essential for this work.
Resource management, being detail-oriented, and having good communication skills, meaning that I'm able to make sure that the scope of a project is clear, actively communicate any changes that are going on in the project, and also kind of act as a buffer in case there's any conflicts between the translators and the customers.
For the resource management, I picked that up while I was working in In the copy center, we had limited machines, we had limited time, and we had to get the customer's orders out.
By the deadline that they would set.
You know, I need this by 4 o'clock, whatever.
Detail-oriented. If we weren't detail-oriented with our jobs, there would definitely be conflicts.
The menu that the customer brought in, that was all that the customer was thinking about was that menu.
And even though we had a number of other jobs, we had to be right on point as far as the detail goes on that customer's menu in order to please them.
And then with the good communication skills, anytime a customer brought an order in, we had to make sure we understood all the details of the order before we accepted it, before we sent the customer on the way and said it'd be ready by the deadline.
If we did not, that would create a lot of problems.
We also had to communicate in case a machine went down or in case we had a problem where something we thought we could do, we couldn't.
We had to communicate that to them far before the deadline in order to find a workaround.
And then also, no matter how much we tried to communicate these things, sometimes they were just We're good to go.
That's something, I mean, I think I can work that into the detail-oriented.
My translation experience is not nearly as much as, you know, and another approach is I can do it, I can do all of these things, I think, from the same way with the teaching job, which is more recent, which is maybe more relevant.
It's hard to say. It's not as much customer-oriented working in the public sector, but...
Well, but you could say, I treated my students as my customers, right?
There's things that you could do with that.
I mean, I think it's okay to touch on the coffee shop thing, because obviously there's some elements in it, like the design and printing and so on, which is post layout, proofreading and so on, which is relevant to the coffee shop.
I certainly would focus a little more on the educational side of things.
Though I agree with you, it's not quite as good a fit, but it is more of a professional set of skills.
Right, and even maybe more of a professional environment too.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
I think that's absolutely correct. Yeah, so that would be my suggestion for that.
I mean, the key thing, the key thing, the key thing is to practice.
You know, it sounds horrible, but you keep doing the speech, you keep doing the speech, and this is the way it goes.
I mean, when I was doing the debate with Ben Eric last year, I mean, I... I must have done the speech three or four times from end to end, you know, for various listeners who were patient enough to give me – well, first of all, I gave over all the ideas, gave the general shape of the speech, gave the speech end to end.
I practiced it incessantly on the car on the way down, you know, and so on.
And so by the time I was able to go and do, then it was all practice, right?
I don't sort of get up there with three pieces of paper and say, let's roll, right?
Because that's just not going to work.
Practice is key.
So I hope that you'll accept, you know, I'm a pretty good communicator and practice is very, very important for what I'm doing.
And I'm already obsessing about the talk that I'm going to give at Porkfest and making notes and starting to put post-its together and ideas.
And I'm asking for feedback on the board and I'll get a working committee of people willing to be bored by non-passionate delivery of the material so that it makes sense.
So practice is really, really important.
And I think a lot of people, when they're going for job interviews, they're not prepared for the job interview.
And I think that speaks volumes.
And I know that you're a good worker and a hard worker.
So you're not accurately portraying yourself if you're not prepared and rehearsed and so on.
And you want to...
With preparation, it's a weird thing, right?
I mean, there is such a thing as over-rehearsing, I suppose, but I've never experienced it, right?
I mean, if Tiger Woods still has to go out and hit four hours of golf balls every day, then the rest of us better practice too, right?
So you want to make sure you keep practicing to the point where it feels really fluent because if you only practice a little bit, then you get the worst of both worlds because you're not as spontaneous But you're also not as concise.
And you then end up sailing the ship against the wind.
So I would definitely recommend you write stuff down that you can practice.
Practice the, you know, there are five or ten common questions that you'll get in interviews.
I mean, you won't get all of them, but you may get none of them.
But most people will ask you, you know, where do you want to be in five years?
Most people will say, you know, tell me about the toughest thing that ever happened to you at work or tell me about a particular success or a particular failure that you had at work.
And give me an example of your conflict resolution skills and so on.
And you don't want to think about that stuff on the fly, right?
You want to sort of have the greatest hits of your career in readily available short snippets so that you can answer those questions.
So where do I want to be in five years?
Well, sitting right where you are, so move.
Something like that. Whatever it is, you know, it really is just about practice.
And You know, I would really practice also record yourself, you know, using your mic and your Audacity or Windows sound recorder or whatever.
Record yourself. Play it back.
Does it make sense? Have people in your life ask you questions so that you can respond and ask them if it made sense.
Ask them if their attention began drifting at any time.
I know you've got the interview on Thursday, but do you have enough time to do some of this stuff?
Yeah, I actually got moved back to Friday, so...
Oh, it's moved to Friday. Okay, even better.
And so, for everything that you have got, right, the resume is the center of the job interview, and for everything that you're saying, it needs to tie back into at least one word, hopefully a phrase, hopefully a sentence, hopefully a paragraph, It needs to tie back into something to do with the job description.
Don't say anything in the job that doesn't have something to do with the job description, job interview, if that makes any sense.
I mean, other than, you know, whether you want to be in five years, it means it's going to be something a little more personal or whatever, right?
But when it comes to describing your skills, everything that you say needs to be relevant to the job interview, sorry, to the job description.
Because otherwise, why would you say it, right?
Yeah. Right, right.
Because they're looking to match your skills to the job.
So everything has to match, right?
And you have to be disciplined.
And Lord knows I've made these mistakes often enough in interviews, but you have to be disciplined and not ramble.
And if you find yourself, if you catch yourself rambling, say, wait, wait, I think I'm rambling.
Let me stop and just reorient myself and then either go on or just ask for the next question.
Okay, okay. That's terrifying.
You mean to actually say in the moment, wait, wait, I'm rambling.
Let me stop and back.
But it shows self-awareness.
It shows confidence.
It shows that you are not going to ramble when you catch yourself doing it.
It shows that you're coachable because you're coaching yourself.
I mean, I think it shows a lot of good stuff.
And it also shows that you're very honest, right?
Right, for sure. No, you're right.
Yeah, don't push on, because it's completely obvious to the interviewer when you're pushing on and you have lost control of your language, so to speak.
Right, right. Yeah.
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
Part of it is, I'm afraid, would I be able to catch myself rambling?
Well, that's the practice, right?
If you practice enough, the rambling becomes almost impossible.
Right, right. Rambling is when you don't know how to end what you're saying.
You don't know how to get to the next point.
Rambling also can happen when you feel the other person's attention drifting.
You get self-conscious and you don't want to stop.
Or when you feel that it's going to be awkward if you do stop and so on.
But that's all the case.
That is mostly solved through bullet point preparation, through slicing and dicing up the job description to make sure that your skills match.
Being concise, time yourself, practice, write it down.
And, you know, practice the five or ten common questions.
And I've talked about those in job interview podcasts before.
But I really wanted to focus on the slicing and dicing.
Having your sequence of important things, you know, fit 30 seconds maybe on each one, 45 seconds on each one.
And wait for, and then asking for more questions or more clarifications if necessary.
I think that's really going to communicate that you're a really good communicator.
And I think that's what they're looking for.
Right, okay. So just being concise to the point, just keeping everything short, that's the key.
Yeah, keep things short and then ask if they want more information.
I'm happy to talk further, but I want to make sure that what I'm saying is useful to you.
Right. And you can also say, you know, also be open to feedback, right?
Everybody loves someone who's coachable, right?
So if you say, these are the three main points, and don't say there are only three points, right?
But just say, these are the three main points as I saw them.
At the end of that speech, you can say, is that fairly accurate in terms of what the job entails?
Is there something significant that I'm missing?
You know, ask for that feedback right away.
Right. Okay.
Yeah, that sounds like a really good idea.
Right. The question about where do you see yourself in five years?
I mean, I've seen that one in the past couple days, you know, doing some research on this interview, trying to figure out what I'm going to do.
And that one's really hard for me to answer.
I mean, as someone who's interviewed before, what kind of response are you looking for then?
Well, I'm looking for an honest response.
I'm not looking for something that's tailor-made.
So what I was, I was just always looking for an honest response.
You know, so people would, I mean, I got a huge range of answers to those questions.
Some people would say, I want to be master of time, space, and dimension and fight the X-Men.
But no, some people would say, you know, I really want to move up in management.
I want to get to an executive level position and so on.
And they'd be like, You're like, well, you may not be getting that by 25.
Maybe, maybe, maybe not.
So they'd be a little unrealistic if they were just popping out of school or whatever, and they would think helping to be some sort of chief executive by 25.
That seemed a little unrealistic, but, you know, ambition was not the end of the world.
Other people would say, I'm just happy to be working with computers.
That's all they want to do. I just want to be up on the latest coding techniques.
I just really, really find coding to be an absorbing and enjoyable challenge.
It's like, hey, this guy doesn't want management.
He just wants to keep typing, and that's great, too.
And so I was a little bit weary, of course, of people who were like, I want to dance.
I want to be in some other profession completely because that would be like, I'm going to train you up and then you're going to bugger off somewhere else.
So I was always a little bit concerned about that.
I'm sorry? Well, that's part of the thing.
I mean, really, part of the goal of this for me for long term is I want to get some business skills and For when I eventually open the school that I plan on opening.
Well, I would certainly focus on, you know, you don't have to tell them you're going to go open a school because, I mean, in a way, that's none of their business, right?
But what you can say is that, well, I'm really interested in figuring out how business works.
I have a deep interest in business and, you know, whether I end up being entrepreneurial or whether I end up in a management position at some firm, perhaps even this one, is still up in the air.
But I'm really, really interested in finding out, you know, what makes a business tick?
How can we best please the customers?
How can we stay innovative without being too chaotic and How can we have deadlines without, you know, given the normal chaos of project management?
So, you know, all of those sorts of things.
Maybe not that last one.
But I would talk about you do have a legitimate and strong desire to learn How a business works, how to please customers, how to organize people to be the most effective.
Because that's going to be useful to you when you start your own school.
And so, yeah, I would talk about that.
I'm interested in learning how business works.
I really truly believe I have good management skills, good communication skills.
I really do want to be front and center as far as that stuff goes.
And this seems like a great job to learn that stuff.
To learn it more. To expand my knowledge in that area.
Right, that makes sense.
So yeah, I mean, I wouldn't talk about my end goal in terms of the actual thing, but in terms of the things that I want to learn and how this job serves those.
Right, okay. That makes sense.
I mean, I had coders who came in.
I had one guy who came and actually became a friend of mine.
He came in and he, you know, he's like, I like coding, but I really like going to customers.
I talk to the customers. I like travel and so on.
And so as soon as I could, I was a couple of months after I hired him, I took him on a business trip.
I put him in front of some customers.
I let him say some stuff and he was good.
And so that's what we started to work into his job.
And he moved away from coding over time and really became more interested in sales and And that was great.
So I knew that up front. And so I think that stuff's, you know, just to be honest about what it is that you want, but not necessarily the specifics of what may eventually clash with your job there.
Right. No, that makes sense.
Okay. Right.
Yeah, that...
So even in that case, it's really just trying to...
Apply as much. Basically, the gist of what you're saying, if I'm understanding you right, is just basically whatever I say, make it applicable to the job that I'm applying for.
Well, I think so.
I think so. Make it applicable.
Make it concise. And...
Less is more. Offer a concise explanation of how it fits and then ask if there's more details that they would like to ask about.
Also, also, also, since you're about, you say, well, I want customers to be happy and so on.
Well, he's your first customer, right?
How you treat your job interviewer is how he's going to perceive you're going to treat the clients, right?
Right. Because he's your first customer in this environment.
Yeah, so things that I do with my customer, making sure that everything that I'm saying is clear and checking if there's anything you want.
Is there anything else that I could add?
Does it make sense?
Is there anything that I'm missing?
Is there any more that you would like to know?
You're showing that you want to get feedback from your customers, that you want to make sure that you have communicated to them effectively.
I mean, I'm lucky to get this all the time because I get emails and board posts and messages on 16 different messaging sites about things that I'm doing well or things that I'm doing badly.
And so I get this continual feedback, which is one of the reasons why I think the show is doing well.
But you won't get bad feedback in a job interview.
You just won't get the job, right?
So I think it's really important in the job interview to say, does that answer your question?
Did I, you know, was that a swing and a miss?
You know, I want to make sure that I'm communicating stuff that's useful and important to you.
Is there anything else that I can add?
Anything else you want to know? Just that kind of stuff.
Make sure that, you know, don't just blindfold yourself, swing and hope you hit, right?
Right. Okay. Okay.
And it's not that important for the job interview, but what you're showing him is how you will deal with customers.
Right. Right.
Yeah, I never even thought about it that way.
That makes so much sense.
I'm not saying every interviewer knows this, but we all get it unconsciously because he does get that he's the first customer that you're dealing with in the company, right?
And he also is, again, I think it's unconscious, but he's going to, you know, if you just talk and never ask him whether he understands it or whether it's relevant, he's really going to be concerned at some level, probably unconscious, but he's going to be like, I don't feel too comfortable with this guy in front of clients because I think he's going to assume a lot without verification.
Right. And so you want to assume almost nothing and verify and check in the interview that it all makes sense.
And then I think they'll be more comfortable thinking of you going to customers.
Right. Okay. That makes a lot of sense, yeah.
All right. I had another question about something else that I had heard in one of your previous podcasts.
I was really struggling with this part about...
Like, at the end, and this is also something I've read in researching, just at the end, if they say, do you have any questions?
Like, it's really bad to not have questions, right?
No, I don't think that's the case at all.
I think it's really bad to make up questions that you don't have.
Okay, right.
But, I mean, you suggested asking questions about the...
about the...
The company in relation to the industry, and I do have those questions, but my knowledge of the industry is about on par with yours, really.
Sorry, I've just stopped hearing you for some reason.
You stopped hearing me?
Oh, there we went.
Okay.
Well, you can hear me.
Thank you.
Steph dropped out.
Cool. Ah, Ah, the joys of technology.
I think it's going pretty good.
I think it's going pretty good.
Feeling better about it.
Oh, are you still there?
Yeah. Sorry about that.
I got dropped for a sec, but please go on.
Oh, right. So we were saying about asking questions about the industry or things like that, and those are questions that I do have, but I hadn't...
I've tried finding information about the industry, but it looks like it's all very hush-hush, say no more, say no more type of thing.
I really don't know.
I can't find much about this company other than what they say themselves.
Their competitors... I mean, I've been able to find info on one competitor, which is supposed to be really bad.
Like, no one wants to work for them.
But I don't know how their customers perceive them or anything like that.
And they're very big, so I think they're pretty successful.
But besides that, I don't know much about the industry.
Do you think that that is a problem?
Or am I just not looking hard enough?
Or what, like...
I don't know. I feel...
No, and he's gone again.
Can you hear me? Yeah.
Well, I wouldn't ask for a lecture on the industry as a whole, because...
I lost you.
Hello?
Nothing.
I lost you.
I lost you.
Okay. Any better?
Yeah, I can hear you.
Okay, I don't know what's going on.
Well, I wouldn't I wouldn't ask for a lecture on the industry as a whole, because that would indicate that you don't know the industry.
And that would, I think, count against you, if that makes sense.
Yeah, for sure.
Sorry, let me just go one sec.
I just want to make sure I get my recorder running again here.
Ah, Skype.
Gets me every time.
So, yeah, I would definitely not ask for a lecture on the industry as a whole.
That would indicate you don't know it. I think that would cost you some points.
But what you could ask is you could ask for how does the company culture run?
Is it, you know, Very strict.
Is it more loosey-goosey?
What do they do for recreation?
Are there any activities outside of work that people are interested in?
Is it sort of a nine-to-five?
Just ask a little bit about the company culture.
I think that would be very helpful.
And that indicates that you care where you're going in.
Like if somebody says to you, I have a girl that I'd like you to meet, you don't usually say, great, where?
You say, well... What's she like?
You know, how tall is she?
What color hair does she have?
What is she into? How old is she?
Whatever, right? And I see a picture maybe, right?
But you're not just going to say yes.
And so I think if you ask about a company culture, that's a way of you saying to that person, I care about a fit with where I work.
Right, okay, yeah.
It's more confident, I think.
Right, right. No, and that's, I mean, you know, it sounds like project managers or project coordinator or whatever is often a job that can be pretty demanding depending on what's going on with the project.
So definitely something that I'm interested in asking about.
Yeah, and I would use the phrase exciting rather than demanding.
Okay, right, right.
It's just something like demanding sounds like, oh, I'm going to show up to work with a 45 one day.
Yeah. Right.
No, very exciting.
No, that is the way to look at it.
It's exciting. Yeah, I mean, look, if the job isn't exciting, I mean, unless you just have to do it to eat, then, you know, don't take it.
Right. But it sounds like it fits well with where it is you want to get to.
It does sound like it works with your existing skills.
It certainly sounds like you'll have some new stuff to learn, but I think that's exactly what you need, right?
Yeah, and honestly, I'm really excited about the prospect of being involved in translation.
I'm trying to do a little bit of the freelance stuff, but I think I'd have more fun doing it from this project coordinator perspective rather than the freelance.
I don't mind the freelancing and I really love the translating, but A lot of the technical stuff of freelancing is just not my cup of tea.
Right, right. And I think all of that stuff's good.
Why is it that you're joining a company?
Things to learn, places to go, and all that.
So I think that stuff would all be very good.
Right, right. So I don't want to go too much longer because we've got a lot of information, but it's practice, practice, practice for job interviews.
And I'm telling you, this approach will serve you for the rest of your life as far as job interviews go.
And so it really is just about the practice and making sure that you're short, concise, coherent and ask for more feedback and ask if you answered the question.
And I think that gives people a very good feeling about your level of confidence and self-knowledge and coachability and all of that.
It's funny because I started the call saying how basically in the past, anytime I've done an interview, I've gotten a job.
But thinking about what you just said, I don't know why.
Because I've never really done any practice for the interview.
Right. And I would say, though, that you're going for a higher level job now, right?
Right, right.
And so that's important.
It's really good to not go with the same mindset.
Yeah, I didn't practice for my interview for being a waiter.
And I know that being a waiter isn't as tough as being in a copy shop.
But I didn't practice for those because it really wasn't necessary.
But when I was going for other jobs at a more senior level, I definitely did practice, do the research, come up with plans about how I would contribute even before I got there and stuff.
And I think that's just really helpful and really important.
And then, it doesn't mean you're going to get the job, but at least, this is what you don't want, right?
You don't want to be walking out of the interview going, oh man, why did I say that?
And why did it go on about that?
And I could see the guy's eyes glazing over and so on, right?
You want to go in, you know, prepared, concise, professional, ready to roll.
And that way, if you don't get the job, at least you're not kicking yourself.
You know, you prepared well, you gave it your best shot, you were good in there.
But for some reason, whatever, right?
Maybe you were too good and they want somebody less threatening.
Who knows, right? In which case, maybe that's not the right place.
But the important thing in life is not to try and control the outcome of anything except your capacity for regret.
You don't want to go out of there kicking yourself.
And I think... Preparation really helps with that.
There may be times when the lack of preparation would really work, but I'll never find out because I'll always prepare.
I think that's just too risky a thing to begin with.
If you already have stress beforehand in terms of going in to get the job, Then preparation is the only thing that I know of that's going to reduce that stress because otherwise you have the stress of whether you're saying the right thing in a stressful environment.
Are you rambling? Are you babbling?
It's a new job. You're not highly qualified for that particular job.
You have to reduce the variables and the best way to do that is preparation.
Right. Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense.
And just as far as the anxiety that I'm feeling about this interview, I think with the right preparation that I'll just, well, not completely disappear, but, you know, fade into the background of a nice, quiet hum or something like that.
Yeah, look, you don't want to be stress-free during a job interview because that would be insane, right?
Because you want the job, right?
It's like if you finally get a girl to go out with you that you've wanted to go out with you for some time, of course you're going to have flutters.
Of course. I mean, otherwise you'd be dead to the world, right?
So it's not about eliminating anxiety or stress.
Stress is not a bad thing.
Stress is a good thing. In excess, it's a bad thing.
And in deficiency, it's a bad thing.
I mean, I've had lots of people who I think should have panicked about their lives long ago, but haven't, right?
Whereas I panic about my life every day.
But you know what I mean? I think that stress and anxiety are your friends, right?
You just don't want to make them your tyrannical bosses, right?
Right. Yeah, no.
And it's like right now the anxiety is, you know, An entire chorus of people screaming at me, but yeah, no, I think if I can tone that down a little bit, it'll definitely be helpful, actually.
Yeah, and make a system convo about what resistance there is to the Java interview and all that can be very helpful in trying to get people on your side, but I wouldn't make it a major project before Friday.
I would just work on the practice.
Yeah, no, that's a good point.
All right. Well, listen, I'll let you go practice and make your moats, make your baller points, know what you're going to hit, know how you're going to transition.
And if you, of course, I'm dying to know how it goes on Friday and to drop us a line or drop me a line at least once you, give me a line before you find out.
Just tell me how the interview went from your perspective.
And then when you do find out, I'd like to know if I could as well.
Sure, sure. Unless they offer me the job right on the spot, you know.
Exactly. In which case you say, no, no, no, I'm sorry, I have to call a friend of mine before I can accept.
But no, listen, I think you're going to do fantastically and I'm really excited for the opportunity for you.
Well, thanks. I really appreciate the vote of confidence and I really appreciate this call.
I mean, this has been really helpful and I think it's definitely going to turn out good and however it turns out, I'll let you know.
I appreciate that and have a great time on Friday.
Alright, thanks so much.
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