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May 6, 2010 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:09:03

1656 Honesty As a Crater - Or How To Change Relationships - A Listener Conversation

A listener, frustrated with the Freedomain community, finds some unexpected solutions...

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	Alright, so do you want to just talk about what you posted about, which I thought was interesting and well worth a discussion.
	So did you want to just talk about what you had posted and why you posted it?
	Yes, yes. First I wanted to say that if anybody wants to interrupt, if anybody has any questions or they feel uncomfortable with what I'm saying, I really like the idea of other people being able to talk as well.
	Is that okay with you? It's fine with me, yeah.
	Conference call is good. Okay, great.
	I feel very angry and sad and bored when I read through the boards.
	It feels like it's been there for a while, but I've only recently been able to identify it And I've only recently been able to muster up the courage to post something about it.
	And I don't want to attack you guys, attack the boards at all, because I really like FDR. I really think it's done a whole lot for me, and I really like it.
	But I've felt this...
	Just growing anxiety and on Facebook with almost all my friends now on Facebook are members of FDR and I just felt more and more anxiety when seeing that the ratio of posts that have something to do with God or the state to posts that have something to do with people's personal lives or feelings or emotions is maybe 20 to 1 and Sorry,
	I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.
	So you're saying that on Facebook, the people are posting about God or society or politics rather than their own personal lives?
	Yes. And I don't know if I'm completely going off the bandwagon, just like completely going crazy and being...
	Sensitive to these things.
	I don't know if that's the appropriate term.
	That felt very uncomfortable to me.
	And I feel very, very nervous, very anxious right now.
	And very sad.
	And within the past couple of days, I've started making posts on Facebook about this.
	I felt that I should probably go to the source and post my discomfort on the board instead of just to, like, a little passive-aggressive, I guess I would call it passive-aggressive, kind of, why do people talk about the state kind of posts and such?
	Does that make any sense? It certainly does to me.
	It certainly does to me. Do you want to go on?
	I mean, I certainly have questions or comments, but I'm happy to keep listening if there's more you want to say.
	There's one other thing I'd like to say and then I'd love to hear questions and comments.
	I really wanted to apologize for not bringing this up sooner.
	I had kind of been debating with myself whether or not I should bring it up now or later.
	The main debate that was going on was that I'm not fully developed but I don't really even know what fully developed means and I don't want to put this off any longer and I'm sorry for not Talking about my discomfort sooner, and I don't want to do that anymore.
	I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but I want to find out now so this doesn't keep building up inside of me.
	It seems that other people have been experiencing similar issues, and I'm really sorry for not bringing this up sooner.
	Well, I'm very glad that you brought it up.
	I mean, the timing is, you know, who cares, right?
	I mean, the important thing is you didn't bring it up, so I think that's great.
	Now, have you read RTR? Yes, several times.
	I think it's a great topic, and I think you've got some really valid stuff to say.
	But I was wondering, based on your understanding of RTR, how well you thought you RTR'd in the post that you made?
	Oh, man. Let me just think about it for one second.
	Yeah, and again, I'm not criticizing.
	I just want to sort of get your perception of it.
	You know, I definitely made more conclusions than thinking now.
	Is there any way that you could read back the post for me?
	I think that would be helpful. Sure.
	I don't have a computer with me right now.
	I sure can.
	Let me just dig it up.
	Thank you so much. No, no problem at all.
	It's a useful thing.
	It's very hard to do RTR when you're feeling very strongly, and that's when you need it the most, so I really do understand the challenge of it.
	But let me just, here we go.
	So you wrote, I guess this was a couple of days ago, You wrote, when I look through the boards, I feel so sad and bored.
	And I feel even more sad when I see that people aren't really talking about their feelings.
	I feel very sad and scared to type this.
	I do not want to attack people, but I don't even like listening to the podcasts anymore.
	FDR has done so much for me.
	I really don't want to hide my feelings anymore, even if they're inconvenient to me or others.
	Please respond. And that's what you wrote.
	And so what are your thoughts?
	My immediate response is that I felt like I did RTR a good amount.
	I put conclusions in there, which I don't know.
	I'm having a lot of ambivalence about that right now.
	I felt like I don't know why, but I'm feeling very blank right now.
	Good, good. It's good to get to blankness very quickly, because that's usually where the good stuff is, right?
	And look, I think you did a great job, to be honest, I mean, to be complimentary.
	And I think you did a great job.
	I thought it was very honest. I thought it was vulnerable.
	I thought it was open. Yeah, where I would say that it wasn't perhaps ideal was...
	You had a conclusion in there, which is that it is a direct result of what is happening in the FDR community.
	That would be my only sort of thing where I'd want to pause and ask a few more questions, if that makes sense.
	Yes, definitely. That's been a big concern that I've been thinking about.
	Right. I don't know if I'm just projecting this or not.
	I don't know either, and that's why I thought it would be a very interesting call, because at least in the post, it was very much around, there is a problem with the FDR community that is causing me to feel X, Y, and Z. And that may be entirely true.
	I'm not saying it's not.
	But I'm not sure that it's true yet, if that makes sense.
	Because it's a conclusion without any evidence or reasoning behind it.
	And that doesn't mean that it's wrong.
	Because I didn't see the reason and evidence which says, you know, I've looked in and I've checked my past and I've checked.
	Here's where I think it's coming from.
	Here are some examples. Because you had a conclusion.
	Conclusions are completely fine as long as there's reason and evidence, right?
	That's the philosophical thing, right?
	And so because there wasn't reason and evidence, I'm not sure that the conclusion is valid, though it may well be.
	And that's what I wanted to talk more about, if that makes sense.
	And I feel scared right now.
	And what are you scared of?
	The immediate thing that popped up was that I'm wrong, which I... There's no reason or evidence for that yet, but it's definitely a big fear for me in this conversation that I'm just projecting everything and that I want to find that out.
	I want to know that.
	That's, I think, very admirable.
	This is the challenge of conclusions, particularly when conclusions are sort of negative towards other people, is that, in a sense, it's like firing the first shot.
	After that, it tends to escalate.
	I don't mean it will in this situation, but When you just say, I feel this way, it could be this, I'm not sure why, then what happens usually is you either get some curiosity or something like that.
	But when you say, there's a problem with the community and it's making me feel this, then if you're wrong, then you're going to feel bad, right?
	Because then you've said, well, there's a problem with this community, but it turns out there was a problem with me.
	And that's the challenge of coming to conclusions, is that someone has to end up being wrong.
	And that's sort of why I caution against it, if that makes sense.
	Okay, that's fantastic.
	And I definitely, I know I didn't put that in the post, and I do want to explore that more, but I definitely don't want to say that that's it for sure, that it's definitely the FDR community.
	I don't know. Yeah, and it may well be.
	But now let me ask you, so you've been around, I guess, almost a year, at least on the boards, right?
	Yes, I've been listening to the podcast for almost two years, and I think I've been around the boards for about a year.
	Right. Now, was there a time when you were listening or when you first joined the boards that you felt the communication in terms of honesty and openness and vulnerability, that it was closer to what you want?
	In other words, do you feel that the community is moving further away from what you liked about it more earlier on?
	Do you mind if I take a second to think about it?
	Yeah, of course, please.
	No, never.
	I do feel like...
	I don't think I can say for sure that it was better, but I do...
	I guess I'll just describe what I'm thinking.
	I feel that in the beginning when I had smaller issues, it was easier to bring them up.
	And I don't know if that means that The FDR community has gotten better or worse, but now I have bigger issues to bring up, and I feel a lot of discomfort in bringing them up, and I don't know if that's me or them, or I don't know what that is.
	I can't say for sure.
	I do not know. Okay, and that's important to know, right?
	So what you're saying is that there's nothing obvious where you would say, like, I mean, if somebody would say to me, was FDR smaller three years ago, I'd say, well, yeah, right?
	That's clear. So you're saying that the community hasn't changed in an appreciable way, but your feelings that there's a problem with the community have grown.
	Yes. I don't know if the feelings have grown themselves or if I've become more aware of them.
	I don't know. Well, and in a sense, it doesn't matter which way it is, right?
	Because it's impossible to determine that for sure.
	Like, the feelings were there, but I didn't know.
	If you don't know, it's like the agnostic argument for God.
	He's outside this universe. Well, that's the same as not existing, right?
	I had the feelings, but I didn't know them.
	It's the same as them not being there, at least in terms of what you can process, right?
	That makes a lot of sense. The example that pops up for me is with my parents.
	I know I've always felt bored and angry around them, but only recently have I been able to accept that and work with it instead of ignoring it.
	Does that make any sense? Right.
	Now, are you saying that you didn't even know that you felt bored and angry before, or you knew it but didn't act on it?
	I knew it, but I gave it I gave excuses for it, and I would hide it, and I would deny it.
	But that's not the same as what you're talking about here, right?
	In terms of feelings that there's something shallow or not open in the FDR community?
	Because you're saying that you didn't feel that before, whereas with your parents you say you always felt it, but you denied it.
	And again, I'm not trying to corner you, I'm just trying to understand to make sure I can process the distinction.
	I'm sorry. I think I misspoke.
	What I am trying to say is that I did have feelings like this.
	I just didn't Would it help if I described the specific feelings I'm talking about, like certain instances?
	No, let me just make sure I understand what you said so far before we go further.
	So, what I got from you, and just let me know if I've misunderstood, what I've got from you is that you don't feel that the community has gotten less communicative, but you have more recently experienced feelings of frustration and boredom with the FDR community.
	and you didn't feel that before and you weren't sure whether or not you just didn't feel it because it wasn't there or it was there but you didn't feel it and I asked you about other things in your life and you said something about your parents that you always knew you'd been bored and angry with them but you rejected it and I think that's different from what you're saying so it's not like you always felt bored and angry with FDR But you were rejecting it.
	I don't think you felt that, and then you began to feel it more recently.
	Whereas with your parents, you did have those feelings, but you rejected them.
	Is that a fair distinction?
	I'm having a lot of anxiety right now.
	Let me think for one moment.
	Sure, no problem at all. Take your time.
	This is complicated stuff, but it's very useful, at least for me.
	I think it would help if I gave this example.
	Please. Would that be alright? When I was earlier on in the community, there would be several times where I would want to make a post about something, but I would be afraid that it would be viewed as unphilosophical or not smart enough or too theoretical.
	Different doubts would come up, and I would not post because of that.
	And I still have those feelings today, except now I'm trying to actually post about my emotions and my experiences.
	And I'm having trouble understanding if that's what you're trying to say, and I don't know why, but I'm feeling a huge plank out.
	I'm finding it very difficult for me to pinpoint, to feel my emotions and to Even speak.
	I'm finding it very difficult.
	Right, right. Well, I mean, I appreciate your discomfort in that I understand it.
	I think it's useful.
	I'm going to try one more run at it.
	And if we don't, no problem.
	We'll just keep talking and it will either resolve itself or it won't.
	So I'm trying to think of a sort of good way of doing it, right?
	So it's sort of like this.
	Like if I'm in my house and I suddenly notice that there's a bad smell.
	Right? I'm like, whoa, did like a skunk just shit in my backyard and then die on its own feces or something?
	Now, I can't say for sure exactly when...
	I got that smell.
	Like, I obviously smelled it before I noticed it, and I may have smelled it for a little while before I noticed it, but then it's like, oh my god, what the hell is that thing, right?
	Now, that's different than if I buy a house next to a garbage dump, and I know that there's a smell there, but I just close my windows, or I use lots of aftershave to try and cover it up, or I get those little plug-in scented things or whatever, right?
	So in the one instance, there wasn't a smell, and then I started to smell it, but I'm not sure exactly when I started to smell it.
	Like, there's some bad smell in my backyard that wasn't there before.
	On the other hand, the smell is always there, but I'm covering it up.
	And that's sort of what I'm trying to distinguish in what you're saying.
	Because you obviously weren't bored and frustrated with Free Domain Radio and the community when you first joined, right?
	But it's been growing in you.
	More recently, whereas compared to your parents, you said that you felt bored and frustrated with them, but you knew that you felt that always, but you rejected those feelings within yourself, you tried to explain it away, and so on, if that makes sense. Yes, and I think I understand now, and I think part of the problem is I don't know when the smell, as it were, came about.
	Sure, but it wasn't there in the beginning.
	That's all we're saying, right?
	I don't know.
	All right.
	Wait, so you're saying that when you first started listening two years ago, there's some community because there's podcasts like this where people are talking, right?
	You started listening two years ago, then you joined the boards a year ago.
	I'm not saying, do you know the day when it started?
	Because obviously you don't, right?
	And I don't think anyone would.
	But my question is, did you feel that when you first joined the message board, say, a year ago?
	Did you go like, start...
	Because then why would you join, right?
	I mean, why would you sort of join and start communicating if you sort of felt bored and frustrated, if that makes any sense?
	Like, it must have grown since you first started, right?
	Yeah, yeah. The feeling itself, not the actual...
	The feeling itself, yeah, I wasn't aware of the feeling.
	I didn't have the feelings.
	Right. Now, you may have had the feelings and been completely unaware of them.
	I mean, I can understand that, but there's no way to really know that for sure.
	So we'll just for shorthand say you didn't have them, right?
	Okay, so there's a very interesting equation here, and listen, I do want to talk about what your feelings are about the community, because they may be real, but I want to make sure that we don't talk about the community if it's only an effect of something else.
	That doesn't mean it's not worth talking about the community, but it does mean that we need to separate the cause and the effect, because if there's something else, If there's something else that's going on with your frustration with the community and all that you and I do or other people do is talk about the community, you're going to end up with exactly the same frustration at the end of the conversation and feeling like that's going to be really annoying, right? Yes, definitely.
	I want to look at that and make sure we don't miss something that's really causing it.
	In talking about it.
	Because if you look at the equation, and this is just a helpful tip, right?
	And Lord knows I forget this myself all the time too, so it's as useful for me to remember as it is for anybody else.
	But you have a community which you say hasn't changed that much since you first started.
	But you have tried to be more open and bring up more important topics for you within the community, right?
	And so if the community hasn't changed that much, but you are trying to be more open and more vulnerable in the community, and roughly simultaneous to your desire to be open and vulnerable in the community, your frustration with the community is going up.
	The community hasn't changed, but you have changed your approach to the community.
	And so that's where I would start to look.
	It may not be where we end up looking, but that's where I would start to look when trying to figure this stuff out.
	Because you are the variable that has changed in the relationship, and therefore it would be to you that I would look as the first place to look for what's going on.
	Yeah, yeah. And I don't know why, but I feel a lot of discomfort whenever I hear that the community hasn't changed.
	I don't know why. But every time it was said, I just felt like a spike of discomfort.
	Oh, I can tell you why, if you like.
	Oh, yeah. Well, you feel discomfort because, as I've talked about in the show, one of the greatest and most challenging but most rewarding aspects of self-knowledge is the withdrawal of projections, right?
	So, if somebody is really afraid of the devil and they're religious, then they get to project all of their, quote, immorality and evil impulses onto the devil.
	If they then become an atheist, they have to deal with those evil impulses as part of their own psyche, right?
	Now, of course, I'm not saying this is you.
	I'm just sort of giving you an example, right?
	So, if I say the community hasn't changed, but you have changed, then the boredom and frustration that you're feeling is not directly attached to the community and is being put back into you as something you need to deal with.
	And I think that's probably why you would feel more anxiety about that.
	I'm sorry, can you run through that again?
	I'm so sorry. Oh no, no problem at all.
	This is complicated stuff, so I appreciate your patience.
	So, if you think it's the community's fault, And again, I'm using these terms very loosely, but if you think it's the community's fault that you're feeling bored and frustrated, but it turns out the community hasn't changed, but only you have changed, then you won't be able to quote blame the community and therefore you have to deal with the feelings as your own.
	Okay, mind if I just repeat it and see if we're on the same line?
	Please, yeah. So if...
	Okay, so if the community hasn't changed, then the discomfort that I feel with the community, it has to...
	No, no, let me try it again, because if the community hasn't changed, but you have changed...
	then the changing feelings that you have about the community are most likely due to your changes, not the community's changes, which aren't there.
	But the thought that popped up, and I don't know if this is relevant or anything, I don't want to make...
	I really don't know if I should even say it because I feel like I'm making an argument.
	No, no. Argue away.
	Tell me exactly what you're thinking.
	I mean, look, I'm not going to take it personally.
	You could be right about the community.
	I'm just trying to make sure that we deal with the most important things.
	Okay. That's for sure.
	The thought that popped up is if just for this example, if something in the community was rotten the whole time, and I'm not trying to say that there was, then Then my changing would make that more visible?
	Does that make any sense? I feel so uncomfortable about that.
	No, no, listen, I think I understand it, right?
	So it's like the community doesn't listen and isn't open and empathetic, and that didn't matter as much when you were talking about politics.
	But now that you're talking about more vulnerable things, the fact that the community doesn't listen and open up is becoming really evident.
	Is that what you mean? Yes, exactly, exactly.
	I don't know if that's true, but that's exactly what I was trying to portray.
	I completely agree with you.
	I completely agree with you that every time you up your honesty and openness in a relationship, deficiencies both in yourself and in others exist.
	For sure, for sure, for sure.
	I completely agree with that.
	But... There would have to be deficiencies in myself as well.
	Yeah, yeah. I completely agree with you.
	Now, that doesn't let the community off the hook, but there's still one other thing that I would say before we talk about the community, which is that if you've been around for a year not posting about things that are really important to you, and then you start to post about things that are really important to you, then in many ways you've had a year of training people to not listen to you, right?
	At least about those important things, right?
	If I've had a friend and all we do is we go for beers and we watch sports, and then I start talking about my childhood, I'm redefining the relationship, so to speak.
	I'm saying I don't want beer and sports.
	I want whatever genuine things that I'm thinking and feeling.
	But I've had a year of beer and sports with the guy that's there, right?
	Yeah, yeah. And relationships have a kind of momentum and it's, you know, the longer they are in a certain way, the tougher they are to change and so on.
	So again, that doesn't mean, I really do want to talk about the community, but I'm just looking at the things that give you more power.
	Because if it's all the community, then you have no power to change anything, right?
	Yes, yes, exactly.
	I felt a lot more relieved when you said that, yes.
	I said one. I, of course, say entirely too many things, but what was it that I was saying that you felt relieved about?
	Oh, the training people in a certain way, right?
	Yeah, yeah. I don't know the exact moment.
	I wish I had brought it up right away.
	By the way, do you mind if I interrupt you with my feelings and stuff?
	Oh, no. Do I mind?
	No. I never know if people feel comfortable with like a mid-sentence and just saying, whoa, I just felt something wrong.
	I absolutely insist that you do.
	No, I mean, that's great because then we don't have to try and remember what it was.
	You totally interrupt me, whatever you like.
	Alright, great, great. Because I don't remember exactly when I started feeling relieved.
	But I'm lying down, I have my eyes closed and stuff.
	I'm trying to get relaxed.
	But at some point I felt much more relieved.
	Right, right, okay.
	Now, the feeling that you have of, and I know we're oversimplifying it, but of frustration and boredom, is that a new feeling for you in your life, or is it something that you've, I mean, I'm asking, yes, I know the answer, because you mentioned it with regards to your parents, but is it something that you've had deeply before in your life?
	Is this a re-emergence of an older feeling, or is this something that is new?
	It's definitely, I'm definitely used to boredom and anger.
	I've definitely experienced it in many areas.
	But I don't know if, I really don't know if I can say it's the same style.
	I don't know if that makes any sense.
	Yes, yes I have.
	Now is this a feeling that you've had more or less constantly in your life or is this something that comes and goes?
	Comes and goes. And do you have any sense of the pattern of it's coming and going?
	The first thing that popped up was with some friends that I've stopped communicating with recently.
	And it would come when they would talk about when they would watch like they would watch a whole series of television and we wouldn't We stopped RTR-ing a while ago and it would come when they would bring up theories and bring up theories on politics and theories on economics and stuff like that when we hadn't talked about the personal issues and also with my parents when they would talk about things on TV,
	political things on TV, And with different friends, just...
	I don't know why, but I just like that.
	No, I understand. So your friends, you'd get together and you'd watch TV, DVDs, is that right?
	Yes, we liked it.
	They would watch an entire series of television shows, and I would come over and watch a few episodes and such.
	So wait, sorry, I'm just trying to understand this.
	So they would get Battlestar Galactica or something and they would watch like, what, season six?
	Isn't that like, I don't know, is that two dozen episodes or something?
	I mean, that's like a, that's a marathon, isn't it?
	Or they'd break it up, right?
	They would watch, they would, like, they would, they have, they would have like, they would watch the entire series of The Simpsons and then go on to a different show that they like and then a different show and then a different show.
	Wow. And, um, It always frustrated me that we, and I mean, it was me too, because I wasn't bringing it up either.
	But it frustrated me that we really never talked about our feelings at all.
	Right. So you would watch the show, you'd sit there and you'd have some snacks and some drinks and you'd watch the show and maybe you'd talk a little bit about the show or whatever, but there would never be much sort of personal stuff that was being talked about, right?
	Yes. And I would say for the last three months or so before I ended our relationship, I just had this inside voice of like, this is stupid.
	I don't want to be doing this.
	I want to talk about other things.
	And then I would bring it up in little ways, but I was never really honest until the end of our relationship.
	And I think the reason I wasn't honest was because I knew it would lead to the end of the relationship.
	Right. And when you think back on your friends, or I guess ex-friends now, and of course I'm very sorry to hear that, but when you think back on that kind of stuff, what do you think was going on in that environment?
	Why was it that way?
	I wanted them to...
	No, sorry, I mean for them.
	I mean for them. Sorry, I should have been more clear, but why was it that way for them?
	Well... One of them I've known for about eight years, the other I've known for about two, and the one that I've known for eight years, we have been best friends for that time,
	and I don't know exactly what's gone on, but they listen to podcasts and stuff, and I think that they I'm having a lot of trouble.
	I'm feeling a lot of discomfort.
	I feel like I should just say it.
	Yeah, listen, don't hedge.
	The longer we hedge, the longer it takes, right?
	I mean, you might as well just be upfront.
	All right. Whether it's right or wrong.
	Okay. I have a big, big thing.
	I'm hedging again. Okay.
	I feel that they wanted to be philosophical enough to keep me in a relationship because I'm funny.
	I'm happy. I'm a nice guy.
	And they wanted to keep me as a friend, but they did not want to talk about their real personal issues and make significant changes in their life and in their relationships.
	But they still wanted to keep me as a friend, which works, but didn't want to make significant changes in their life.
	And so they would listen to enough philosophy to keep me quiet, essentially.
	And then I'm feeling very sad.
	And then not go any further with that.
	Right, right. Does that make any sense?
	It makes total sense. Yeah, it's a kind of appeasement, right?
	Yeah. I'm feeling very sad.
	I'm sure you know the question that I'm going to ask next, but why was that relationship familiar and acceptable to you?
	Why were those standards familiar and acceptable to you in your friendships?
	Every relationship I've had is exactly the same, to different degrees and different ways.
	My parents, my dad even listened to He would podcast with me in the car and he would read on truth and they would say that they respect me for being emotional and such.
	And? And then when I would try to be honest with them, it would just become terrible very quickly.
	Terrible how? They would degrade into yelling at me.
	They would accuse me of making up my feelings, of trying to hurt them, of blaming them for everything.
	So, what do you mean they would yell at you?
	What do you mean? I mean, I know what the word yell means.
	I'm just trying to understand what that means.
	Like, scream? Like, just raise their voice?
	Like, was it intimidating? Was it desperate?
	What was the yelling about?
	There would be some times where I would just be raising a voice.
	And then if I continued to talk about my feelings or...
	I mean, it's very...
	I've found that it's very difficult to keep talking about my feelings with my parents.
	I often break away from it to appear superior, to kind of laugh at them, and I don't like that at all.
	And when either I'll start doing that, I'll start being, I guess I would call it passive aggressive, or I'll keep being honest.
	It upsets my mother the most.
	She gets very, very angry.
	She accuses me of saying new things to hurt her, and she will scream.
	It's been only been a few times with actual screaming and slamming of doors and such, but I always know that it's there, and I always know that if I keep talking, if I keep being honest, then it'll come up.
	Does that answer the question?
	I don't feel like I answered the question.
	Yeah, I think it answers the question.
	And what does your dad do in these situations?
	He definitely...
	He'll kind of be the middleman.
	He'll take...
	When it gets to screaming and when it gets to the point where she starts...
	Okay, I'm going.
	I'm overshooting. At first, he'll pretend to see it my way.
	And he'll try to make a compromise between the two, like...
	I don't need an example.
	And he will...
	And until my mom gets angry, and then he'll take her side.
	And... Like I said in the Case for College podcast, when he told me to leave after she threatened to divorce him, If it gets too escalated, he'll take her side, but he doesn't yell.
	He just passes and pretends to take my side most of the time.
	I'm feeling very sad and very anxious.
	I get that.
	The tone of my voice is very trembling.
	And if there's one thing that if you could sort of magically get from your parents, right, what's the thing that you most want?
	To be completely out of my life.
	I mean, are you talking about like within possibility?
	No, no, I'm talking about mad fantasy, right?
	So if there's something that you could get from your parents, what would it be that would turn it around?
	What are the things that you could get in theory and maybe from the beginning, but if there's sort of one trait or aspect That you could get.
	I mean, for me, with my parents, I just wanted them to be curious rather than always jumping to crazy conclusions, right?
	But it could be different for everyone.
	So what is it, with your parents or your family, what is it that you would want if you could have anything?
	Curiosity and responsibility.
	Responsibility how? For the wrongs that they have done in my life, and I feel the hardest thing with my parents is that they'll say something that hurts my feelings, and I'll say that hurt my feelings, and they'll say,
	well, that's your fault, or that's your problem, that's not my problem, you know, and I, oh, you know, it would just be, you know, perfect if I could get, if they could say, oh, well, maybe I had some part of that, you know, and Does that make any sense?
	It does make sense. Do you see why this is relevant to your post?
	Yes. Go on.
	Well, I would like, I have definitely, and not just this post, but the post I've been making on Facebook, kind of pushing people to not talk about the state and talk about God.
	But to talk about the...
	I blanked out.
	I just completely... Yeah, because you missed it.
	You missed it. And that's okay.
	It's actually good that you missed it.
	You said that you wish your parents had taken responsibility and said that maybe I'm doing something to cause this rather than blaming others?
	Wait, I think something's coming in.
	Go ahead. Yes, yes.
	I mean, it's my responsibility, too, because, I mean, let's just say, just out of examples, like, let's say FDR is completely corrupt, you know, out the window, you know, then why have I been participating with the community for so long?
	Does that make any sense?
	Like, I'm not saying that it is.
	No, no, of course I understand that.
	Well, I mean, I... I think it's interesting that you're going to the, you know, if the community is completely corrupting, because, I mean, that's obviously such an extreme perspective to have relative to, you know, what I think is pretty much the most civilized and polite place on the internet.
	But what I mean is that When you posted this, you, to me at least, you certainly were honest about your feelings.
	I'm frustrated and sad, which I thought was great.
	But you did, at least to me, as I read it, you put the entire onus on the community, that there was something wrong with the community.
	And that strikes me, that the community is you as a kid and you're acting as a parent.
	You know, one of those finger-wagging parents, right?
	Oh, I'm so sorry. No, no, don't apologize.
	Listen, because I could be wrong.
	I could be wrong, and I'm just telling you what I'm thinking.
	This is true.
	What I'm sorry for, I'm not saying it's wrong or right.
	I'm just saying that I'm sorry that I didn't say, and I don't know if it's me, or that I didn't even bring that up as a possibility in the post.
	And I think that's great, but the question is why, right?
	And I think the template is, if you have parents, and Lord knows this isn't just parents, but a lot of authority figures, if you have parents Who externalize their feelings, right?
	Who say, well, if I'm upset, you did it.
	And if you're upset, you did it, right?
	No matter what, I never did it, right?
	So to speak. And that's probably a bit of an exaggeration, but then that's going to be a template that you have to work with, right?
	And unfortunately, that just is the template.
	I mean, if you remember it on Truth, I talked about this teacher who yelled at me because I was tired and fell asleep in his class.
	And, of course, you get this kind of stuff all the time, you know, just to talk about teachers for a second.
	You get this stuff all the time with teachers.
	The teachers get angry and frustrated and irritated and punitive and so on because, you know, you're not paying attention.
	You're gossiping, you're passing notes, you're not doing your homework, you're not committed, you're not this, you're not...
	The teachers are all just blaming the students, right?
	And that's led to this terrible medication problem as well, too.
	Kids get medicated. But of course...
	Just imagine if I was running a store, I don't know, some CD store or whatever, and nobody came in, and I just stood outside my CD store yelling at the passerby.
	It's all your fault. Yeah, what the hell's wrong with you people?
	Don't you care about fucking music anymore?
	Jesus, these goddamn artists have to eat too.
	How selfish can you be? What's the matter with you people?
	Don't you care about the arts, you bunch of philistines?
	I mean, can you imagine if that was my business plan?
	And I went to some investors and said, you know, I'm having trouble with my CD store.
	And what I really want to do, you see, is I want to stand up front of my store and harangue and insult people for not buying my CDs or the CDs that I'm selling.
	I mean, they just look at me like, what the hell is wrong with you?
	Like, you know, that maybe you do need medication for, right?
	Yes, yes, yes. And yet this is what happens in school all the time, and it's also what happens in church, right?
	If you don't believe, because you have a couple of brain cells rolling around, if you have doubts, well, that's your fault.
	That's just bad. Or maybe it's Satan's fault, but it's your fault for letting him into your heart or whatever, right?
	So this idea that, you know, authority figures claim responsibility when it comes to having power, but reject all responsibility when it comes to the quality of the relationship, right?
	And that's something which, I mean, I kind of turn on its head, right?
	Because I say that the authority is unjust, and the only way that an authority can be judged is in the quality of the relationship that he has with those he has power over.
	Right? So if the relationship is bad...
	With the parents, yeah, I look to the parents and I'm a thousand times more convinced of this now that I've had a kid.
	I mean, I'm a thousand times more.
	I mean, it has now become my physics that parents define the relationships.
	I'm much more certain of that now because, I mean, I can't remember what it's like to be 14 months old or a year old or eight months old, but I sure as hell know What my daughter was doing and how incredibly dependent she was on my wife and I, and she had no capacity whatsoever to define the relationship.
	And that's true even now, right?
	So, I mean, the point of that is that when you have authority figures who won't take ownership for the relationship that they have, That is a significant block, in my opinion, for your own emotional growth because that's just a template that you work with.
	I have a feeling I must look for the external source, right?
	And that doesn't mean that the external source It's not real and there.
	If I have a feeling called terror and there's a grizzly bear charging at me, I'm not going to introspect, because I don't have any inner grizzly that I'm projecting onto the woods.
	That's a genuine threat.
	So I'm not saying that it's always internal, but in something like this, I think it is internal.
	I do want to talk about the community, so I'll keep this really brief because I do want to get to that, but this is a couple of things that I would give out as tips, the ways that I try and stay on track and things that may be of use to you.
	First of all, if you're trying to change a relationship, you need to explicitly change that relationship.
	If I'm going for a test drive, I don't just get to drive home and keep the car, right?
	Because if I'm going for a rental and I decide I want to keep the car, then I can go to the rental company and say, listen, I want to buy the car, I don't want to rent it, and I can sit down and negotiate.
	I have to explicitly change my relationship with people.
	I can't implicitly change it, right?
	If you and I are driving north and I suddenly decide I want to drive south, I don't just get to turn and drive south, because then you'll say, well, where the hell are you going, right?
	I'm sorry, my phone kind of goes.
	Can you say that again? Sure. If you and I are driving north, and we both agree to head north, and then I suddenly decide to go east, I don't just get to slowly turn the car around, you know, taking a few streets here and there, because at some point you're going to get uneasy, and you're going to say, wait a second, I don't think we're heading north anymore, right?
	But I haven't said anything, so it gets kind of weird, right?
	Yeah, yeah. And so, if you want to change your relationship with the free domain radio community, Don't change your relationship implicitly.
	That won't work. Don't change your relationship with people implicitly.
	You know, guys try to do this all the time with girls, right?
	You're hanging around, you're friends with someone, you get romantically interested, or maybe you've been romantically interested in the beginning, and you try to sort of maneuver the relationship towards romance, right?
	Whereas explicitly you want to sit down and say, listen, my feelings to you have grown or changed or whatever, and, you know, is this something you'd be interested in?
	You don't want to implicitly try to change relationships because either the person won't say anything, in which case you're both lost, or the person will say something, in which case you look kind of furtive, right?
	And sort of dishonest.
	I'm not saying you're being dishonest, but if you try to change relationships implicitly, it just doesn't work.
	So if you have a relationship with people on the message board or on Facebook or whatever, and you say to yourself, you know what?
	I'm sick and tired of not talking about my feelings.
	So I'm going to start to really open up with people.
	You need to say that.
	Don't just start doing it.
	Yes, yes, yes.
	Does that make sense?
	That's great. Yes, that's wonderful.
	Sorry, I shouldn't have given you all those examples.
	I should have just said it.
	Yeah, yeah. My brain, I was like, okay, come on.
	Yeah, sorry. Okay, no more examples.
	I'll just give it to you straight.
	So don't try and change the relationship implicitly, because that's just going to get frustrating.
	For you and for other people.
	If you have beer and sports with the guy and you want to start talking about your feelings, say, listen, I know we've talked about beer and sports and blah, blah, blah, but I'd really like to explore this side of a possible relationship and blah, blah, blah.
	So just be upfront about it, right?
	Yes, yes.
	The second thing is, if you're going to redefine your relationship, The first thing you need to do is state that you want to redefine the relationship.
	The second thing that you need to do is to ask the other person what their thoughts and feelings are about the proposed change.
	Yes. This is really helpful.
	Thank you so much. Sure, sure. Anytime.
	This is really great. Anytime. I'm really excited.
	Right, right. And of course, you need to ask the person what that other person thinks because it is a relationship and you don't get to change the relationship because it's not yours.
	The relationship is a shared thing, right?
	Like if you and I share a lawnmower because we're neighbors, I don't get to sell the lawnmower on eBay, right?
	Even if I give you half the money, right?
	So I need to say, well, I want to change.
	I want to sell it on eBay. Do you want half the money?
	Yeah. Because it is a relationship.
	You don't have the right or the capacity to change a relationship.
	You have the right to ask for a redirect.
	But you can't change a relationship.
	You don't have that power, right?
	Correct. So you petition for it.
	You ask for it. And we don't like doing that.
	And we don't like doing that because to be explicit about a request for a change in a relationship and to ask the other person What they think or feel about it is to risk rejection and scorn and, what the hell do you want to talk about this faggy feelings for?
	We're just here to drink beer and watch sports, right?
	Yes, yes. Yes, this is very helpful.
	And it may help if you've still got contact with some friends.
	I mean, if you wanted to take a run at that, I think that would be great.
	I was just thinking I could actually try this with a couple of my friends.
	I mean, see what they have to say.
	Personally, I mean, obviously you can do whatever you like, it's always true, but personally, if I were you, I would take a run at it on the message board first, because it's a great place to try things and to work through the feelings without long-term relationships being risked by missteps or whatever, right? Sure, sure, definitely.
	So my question to you is, Since this is obvious, and this is RTR, right?
	If you have a desire to change a relationship, RTR says that you should say, I have a desire to change the relationship, right?
	Because that's the most honest thing.
	Why didn't I do that? So the question is, why not, right?
	Why not? Why is that hard?
	Yeah, why didn't I do that?
	Well, it was uncomfortable.
	Yeah, that would have been very...
	Another thing that popped up was that if I don't do that, and then the community doesn't fulfill what I want it to change to, then I could have an aura of superiority.
	Right, so you have a script where you try to improve things, people don't respond, and you get to be bitter about it, right?
	Yes, yes. I think we all have that script.
	I don't know a human being alive who doesn't have that script, so I sympathize with that.
	I feel like there's another reason, but I... Oh, there's another reason or two, but I just wanted to know what was popping up in your head.
	Can you repeat the question one more time?
	I think that might help. Sure. Since you've read RTR a couple of times, and honesty, blah, blah, blah, if you wanted to change your relationship with the FDR community, why wouldn't you be upfront and ask people for their feedback?
	First thing that popped up was because I don't want my relationship with the community.
	So you're saying you were setting a very elaborate trap, right?
	So you were going to change a relationship without explicitly stating it or asking for something, which of course is going to turn people off, right?
	Because if you just change your side of doing things without asking how other people perceive it, then you're kind of saying they're not important in the relationship, right?
	I've decided to change the relationship, and I'm not even going to tell you about the change, and I'm also not going to ask you what you think about it.
	I'm just going to go ahead and change it.
	The other person doesn't matter, right?
	That's not a relationship, right?
	Yeah. I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry about that.
	Oh, yeah. No, I mean, I appreciate that.
	I think everyone, at least on the chat room, is very excited about what you're talking about.
	I mean, very excited about what we're talking about.
	So it's very good that we're talking about this.
	But it is a way of making the other person feel that they're not respected, that their feedback is not important.
	And also, it's a way of diminishing their reality sense.
	Because if you change your relationship on someone without explicitly doing so, You kind of put a challenge to them, right?
	Because they then can either work to a certain reality back, right?
	Or not, right?
	And it puts a real onus on the other person.
	And unless you have somebody with pretty great integrity in your life, most people will just kind of ignore it.
	If that makes sense.
	Yes, yes. That does make sense, because I think this is what popped up when you were saying that.
	Let me know if this isn't what you were saying, but if I were to do this trap, then I'm also putting the onus on the other person in the relationship to bring that up, that I'm putting a trap. Is that what you were saying?
	Well, yes, that is what I was saying at the end, and I'm trying to think of how to put it directly, right?
	So, if you just sort of start to open up more with people, but you're not sort of admitting that you haven't and that you want to change, if you're not working to redefine the relationship, then you're treating the other people as unimportant.
	You know, the fact that you're changing something, they should just somehow pick up on it, and they should give you what you want, although you're not being honest and explicit with them, they should respond to you with honesty and explicitness, right?
	It's not UPB, to say the least, right?
	No. And so if you treat other people as unimportant...
	If you treat most people as unimportant...
	I'm sorry? Then I will be treated as unimportant.
	Well, that's most likely what will happen is that they will end up treating you as unimportant.
	If you treat people as unimportant, most people, and by that I mean 99.999% of people in the world, will simply reflect back to you whatever you're doing unconsciously to them, right?
	Now, if you have somebody of great integrity and commitment to honesty in your life, then that person will say, wait a sec, something's funny here.
	I'm not sure what it is.
	Something's different about what you're doing.
	I don't know what happened or when, but, you know, what's going on, right?
	They will attempt to dredge the Titanic up to the surface, right?
	Yeah. Like you're doing.
	Yeah, I guess like I'm doing, right?
	But most people on the message board won't do that at all, right?
	They don't have a relationship with you.
	You've already trained them that you kind of talk about shallow things for a year and blah, blah, blah.
	Again, I don't know.
	I don't remember all your posts, of course.
	I'm just sort of giving you some possibilities.
	Oh, yeah. It's been very recently that I've been starting to...
	And actually, it's interesting because as I became more open, I started posting less.
	Right. Right, right, right.
	So if you're treating other people as unimportant, like I could just redefine our relationship and change my expectations without saying anything, without asking you what you want, right?
	If you don't state to people what you want from them and how it's changed, And why?
	And I ask them for their feedback, then you're treating them as unimportant.
	And what's going to happen is they're going to treat you as unimportant.
	And that's when you're opening your heart up to someone or to a community, let's say, when you're opening your heart up, but you're kind of treating other people as interchangeable and disposable, you know, not to be considered human beings, then it doesn't invite people back into your life to treat you with empathy and respect if you're not treating them with empathy and respect.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	I feel, I feel, I feel sad and I feel sorry.
	I'm sorry. I appreciate that.
	And this may help explain, and look, I mean, I thought about this for a long time.
	This is not just off the top of my head, because when I was younger, I was a man whore.
	I slutted around like you wouldn't believe.
	I wasn't that bad. But I went out with lots of dates.
	And I couldn't figure something out, which was that relationships, there would always be a great flash of honesty right before they ended.
	And this has been a pattern that I have seen and I have ruminated on obsessively for many years to try and figure it out.
	This has been true of friends as well.
	That I used to think that when somebody was opening up to me, and I'd have friends, I had friends for decades, who finally would sort of open up to me and talk about some really difficult things and then would avoid me.
	And I was so baffled by that, because I would think like, hey, great, you know, we've taken this relationship to a new level, there's a new intimacy, there's a new openness, vulnerability, honesty, beautiful, right?
	I was thrilled. And then it would all just evaporate.
	And it was like, I'd think that the light was a sunrise, but it was actually just an asteroid hitting the earth and exploding.
	The relationship was just ending, but it ended in this great flash of honesty.
	And when you think about couples who fight, right?
	Like at the end of a divorce, they say these terrible things to each other.
	And there's truth in those things.
	And if they'd said those things in a calmer way years before, you know, you could have avoided all this mess and disaster.
	And what I think is beautiful about what you did, and what I think is truly beautiful about the call that we're having, is that without intervention, This would have been exactly that for you and this community.
	This honesty which precedes an exit.
	And the honesty is a trap designed to get you away from the community so that you don't have to break patterns that are dysfunctional.
	Oh, part of me is like, all right.
	Part of me is like, don't listen to him.
	Don't listen to him, absolutely.
	But don't listen to me.
	What happened with your friendships?
	You opened up to your friends, and then what happened?
	Oh, I mean, I was attacked.
	It ended. Yeah.
	But I would submit that it's not that you were attacked for opening up.
	I would submit that you were attacked because you weren't honest.
	And you didn't solicit feedback.
	because you were using people to listen to you.
	How do you experience me opening up to you?
	You were just opening up!
	Blurp, blurp, right?
	Like throwing cans of paint to the wall and calling it a painting, right?
	What was their experience of you opening up?
	What was their experience of you redefining these eight-year relationships that had settled into a comfortable rhythm?
	What was their thoughts and feelings about it?
	See, if you don't ask that, you can't ask for intimacy if you're not going to offer the request for feedback and be explicit about what it is that you want.
	You can't open yourself up to people if you're not willing to open them up to you.
	Correct. Yeah. This is so helpful.
	Thank you so much. Right?
	If you open your heart, you know, this is Superman, rips open his chest.
	Everybody has to do it, or it doesn't work.
	And if you're the one starting the ball rolling, then you have to ask and ask and ask and ask people how it's going for them.
	Oh, thank you so much.
	Oh, my God.
	This is something I've completely overlooked with.
	Well, no, it's not that you've overlooked it.
	It's just, it's never been modeled for you, right?
	I mean, it's like saying, I've overlooked Mandarin.
	It's like, no, I've just never studied it, right?
	It wasn't spoken in my household, and I've never studied it, right?
	Right, yeah. It has been overlooked for me.
	And so, the way to tie it all together, for me at least, is that you can't ask people to be curious about you if you're not curious about them.
	You can't ask people to love you if you don't love them.
	I can't ask people to be generous to me if I'm not generous towards them.
	I can't ask them to be honest with me if I'm not honest with them.
	That's UPB, baby.
	The rising tide has to lift all boats or people drown.
	The rising tide has to lift all boats or people drown.
	I feel very happy right now.
	Good, good, good. So yeah, enough about me.
	Tell me what you're thinking.
	Oh, I'm thinking back to a lot of situations in my life where this would have been so helpful.
	And I'm thinking of earlier conversations that I had in the chat room.
	And I am thinking of a lot of situations.
	Oh man, I got a big smile on my face and I feel like Wow, this is really helpful.
	This is really, like, I'm really excited to, like, to, oh, like, to do this.
	And then I just saw the blank out.
	That's good. No, the blank out is going to happen, right?
	The blank out is going to happen, but as long as you've got the principles, that's why we need philosophy because we have these blank outs, right?
	So we have to kind of build that bridge over the chasm, but sorry, go on.
	I don't know why I felt the blank out right when I said to do this.
	What were you saying? I just want to make sure that I understand.
	What were you saying when you had the blank?
	I'm really excited to do this.
	Right. And just being asking for feedback while I... or explicitly...
	Stating what I want in that relationship to change as opposed to just changing it myself and asking for feedback while doing that.
	Right. Right. Yeah, because it's scary, right?
	Oh, it's scary and it's exciting.
	It is, yeah. And you know what it is?
	It's an incredible time saver.
	Because if you try to change relationships non-explicit, like implicitly, you just start doing different things, you confuse everyone, you get all this weird unconscious reaction, things get alienated, people get weird, they maybe take a few digs at you, they start to make fun of you.
	And you can waste months or sometimes years Whereas if you go up to someone and say, I'd like to really be a lot more open and honest in my relationships.
	What do you think? And they say, I'm not into that.
	Boom. Done and dusted.
	Move on, move on until you find somebody who's like, oh, me too.
	It's an incredible time saver.
	And you need to, because there's so few people who can do it, you need to discard, you need to discard, you need to discard so that you can get to those golden gods of humanity who want that.
	Yes, yes.
	But yeah, never ask, never ask implicitly and for heaven's sake, never ask for more than you're willing to provide.
	You want people to be curious about you, you have got to be curious about other people first.
	You have to almost train them to do it.
	You have to take the initiative.
	There is only room for leadership in philosophy.
	A philosopher can never ever be a follower.
	A philosopher can never do anything implicitly.
	A philosopher always must lead and always must train because there are so few of us.
	I mean, if you're inventing a new language, first thing you need to do is go out and train people in it.
	You can't just wait for people to strike up a conversation in that language.
	You have to lead by example. You have to show people.
	You have to excite people. You have to motivate them to do it by being curious about them.
	I wanted to thank you for, like, yelling and everything.
	I'm feeling so inspired right now.
	Thank you so much.
	You're very welcome. Now, is there anything else?
	It sounds like you've got a lot of stuff to think about, and I don't think there's much that I can add.
	Is there anything that you wanted to talk about further, or do you want to just mull over what we've been chatting about?
	I'd like to mull over.
	And we haven't used any names.
	Do you have any particular objection if I were to put this out as a podcast?
	No, no, no. Please do.
	I think it'll be very useful.
	Oh, I can guarantee you that it will be very useful.
	And I can also guarantee you that the coldness of the community will evaporate with your honesty in this.
	Thank you so much.
	Keep me posted how it goes. And listen, best of luck with your friends too.
	Thank you. All right. Take care, man. Good night.

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