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Feb. 27, 2010 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
28:53
1595 Eject One Canoe - A Listener Conversation

A listener resolves her problems with trust at the end of a relationship...

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Time Text
Yo! Yo!
I was trying to think of good philosophical reasons for calling to find out about this, but frankly, I think it's just gossip.
So, I'm not even going to try and fool myself into thinking it's a higher purpose.
I just want to know what happened.
Yeah. Oh, man.
It was pretty intense, and I definitely...
I felt that anger and definitely expressed it.
And man, he tried to throw every kind of monkey poo on me that he could possibly throw.
Alright, so what happened since last night?
Well, he was in...
He worked in San Francisco yesterday, so he stayed the night at some friend's house or whatever in Marin.
And so he was still up there this morning, and I got a call from him, but then he didn't leave a message, which is, that was the first time he's ever done that.
Sorry, I just missed that.
First time he's done what? First time he'd ever called without leaving a message.
Right, right. So it was kind of different.
Right. And he sent me a text message last night and I just said, he asked how the conversation went and I, because I told him I was going to have a conversation about it.
But it wasn't, you know, necessarily about that.
I was like, I'm going to have a conversation about this because we're, because there's a lot of difficulties and stuff.
Was he aware of the difficulties?
Had he sort of understood them as well?
Or was he like, no, everything's great?
Oh, no, everything's great.
We would have these, like, super, super intense and difficult conversations, and then, like, he would send me a message, like, I can't wait to talk with you about this stuff again.
And I was like, what?
What the hell? Right.
Okay, so he didn't know...
So he knew that you were having a conversation, but didn't really know what was...
He didn't really get much of a sense of the fallout, I guess, until you guys chatted.
Right, right. Yeah.
And so... I listened to the conversation about three times this morning after you sent it.
How was it to listen again?
It was great.
It was great. I definitely had a lot of emotional reactions, the same sort of emotional reactions that I was having in the moment in the call.
Right. So it was really great to listen to and really helpful to kind of listen to that before I did this today.
Right, right. Um, so, uh, yeah, so he gave me a call.
I called him back and, um, um, oh, what happened?
Oh no, he, he tried calling me when I was like, I was jumping into the, I was in the shower.
And so I like kind of came out and said, Hey, I'll call you right back.
And then, um, and then I called him and, and said, um, Yeah, I'd like to talk to you.
And he said, well, how did the conversation go?
And I was like, it went good.
It was really useful for me.
And then he said, well, you know, well, how?
And I wasn't very, you know, warm or anything, so...
And is he, sorry, just because there was a few things that we didn't get around to last night.
Was he still seeing this other woman?
I mean, what's the story with that?
No, that was the first time that we had, you know, had connected and I had asked him out.
But it was a few months passed by and then he came in later on and...
Same sort of thing. Like, he left at the same time that I did, and then he asked me to go on a walk, and I just kind of, like, went, huh?
Right. And never mentioned that he broke up with his girlfriend, but apparently he broke up with his girlfriend.
Oh, man. Yeah.
Right. Okay, okay. Sorry.
Face palm. Right, right.
Yeah. Yeah, and, like, when he asked me to go, and this was...
Not something that I think that I felt in the moment, but there was definitely, or I must have felt it, but didn't act on it or anything, but just annoyance.
Like, what?
Why are you asking me this now?
Right, right. And no better communication than the first time.
Yeah, exactly. Alright, so then you guys got together because you said he was at your doorstep, right?
But you didn't talk about it much on the phone beforehand.
You just like, let's get together and...
On the phone beforehand.
Sorry, like you called him back after you'd finished your shower?
Yeah. Yeah, and no, I didn't really talk about it.
And I said, you know, I'd really rather not talk about this on the phone right now.
So maybe when you're back in town, give me a call and we'll talk then.
And he was like, okay, I'm feeling nervous.
Oh, okay. I was like, oh, you're feeling nervous.
So that's interesting. So when he's feeling nervous, he's suddenly all about the honest and open and clear communication.
Right. Oh, what a prince.
Anyway, sorry, go on. Right.
Yeah. And then I think this is some passive regression, but I don't mind.
I said, what would you have to feel nervous about?
And... A question like that might add to it, but yeah, fair enough.
Right. He's like, I'm not sure.
And I said, well, I'll just talk to you later.
And he said, okay, bye.
And when were you expecting him to be back in town?
Did you have any idea? That day.
I knew he was driving back.
Oh, okay, okay. So it wasn't like we'll see each other in a week or two.
You knew you'd see him, right? Yeah, I knew I'd see him today.
Right, okay. Yeah.
And pretty much after that, I just started pacing because I wasn't sure.
I forgot or didn't think about asking him how far away he was, like how long it would be.
Right. And I knew he was going to, like, I didn't say let's meet at a certain place at a certain time.
And he just said, well, okay, well, I figured either he'd call me or he'd show up here.
And so I didn't know which one.
And so I just kind of paced around my house for a while until I decided just to get in my truck and drive along the beach instead of like sitting here and kind of just feeling anxious like I didn't know when it was going to happen.
And then I got a call and he said, I'm outside your house and like where are you?
And then I drove back and that's when it went down.
So, spare no details.
Yeah, pretty much I just pulled up and then I pulled my sunglasses back because I wanted him to see my eyes when I was talking to him.
And basically I said, you know, this is not working at all.
This is so far from working that it's not even funny.
And he's like, what do you mean?
And then I said, well...
Like, this is a bad idea for me.
I don't, this is not something I want.
Now, sorry, I said spare no details, but that's great.
But so when he said, what do you mean?
I'm already annoyed.
Yeah. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. Because when one person has a problem in a relationship to the point where they're actually talking to somebody, you know, you said, I'm having a conversation about the problems in our relationship, right?
And then he's like, what do you mean?
What do you mean? Dude, she just had a conversation with someone about problems in your relationship.
She told you that was happening.
This is the next day.
And it's like, what do you mean it's over?
And that's just like, oh man.
Oh man. He's so inaccessible to my mind.
There's no direct, solid person to talk to.
Everything goes through this otherworldly, bizarro filter.
How could this be a surprise?
Oh man, yeah. I mean, it may be a surprise that you broke up with him today, but it can't be a surprise that it wasn't at all on the table or that there would be significant problems because he already said he felt nervous.
Right. So then where does, what do you mean?
And how do you explain that to someone?
It's so impossible, you know?
How do you explain to someone, it's like, either you were lying when you told me you were nervous or Or you have no capacity to process the problems I've been expressing to you, or you're lying now when you say that you're completely shocked that this is happening.
Right. How do you even explain that to someone?
You can't. I think that's what it's meant for.
Like, I'm going to bring out my Chinese hand puppets and do some sort of kibuku play to make it clear.
Because I never know how to explain obvious things to people who are that dissociated.
But anyway, sorry. Let me walk you through A.S. Shakespeare.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what we call an emotion.
It's right next to my ring finger.
My other fingers are down.
Anyway, sorry. It's just for you.
Yeah, and so what do you mean?
And I said, oh, come on.
You are way smarter than that.
And he's like, what do you mean?
Again. No, really?
Yeah, really. Really.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm so confused. I'm like, oh my gosh.
Like, I said, you have been manipulating me from the very start of this.
And then I tried to kind of go into the first interaction, the one that we talked about, a little bit.
But then I just stopped myself because I was like, you know what?
It doesn't matter. Yeah, how can you explain this, right?
He sort of bends your head like a pretzel every time he interacts with you, and yet you're direct with him.
And so, of course, that leaves you really confused, and genuinely and substantially confused.
You're very clear and direct with him.
You tell him there are problems.
You're telling him you talk to someone about those problems.
You tell him that you want to talk to him in person, which is usually...
Yeah, not good.
Well, it certainly is serious, whether it's either a marriage proposal or a breakup.
And... And so you're very clear and direct with him, and he's confused, right?
So he gives you all these mixed signals and then you're supposed to be just really clear on everything, but then you're straight and direct with him.
Like, if you being straight and direct with him results in him being confused, how the hell does he think that his oblique mind frackery is going to not leave?
Anyway, obvious, but go on.
Yeah, totally. Totally.
Yeah, so I just stopped myself and I said, if you're really interested in figuring this out, figure it out for yourself.
Figure out what I'm talking about.
What did he say about the first interactions, the one that we talked about yesterday?
He said, what are you talking about that I was seeing a girlfriend when I was flirting with you?
What are you talking about? And I was like...
What do you mean?
Is he seriously going with the...
You don't know what happened?
That's his defense. Like, apparently he has lost all memory of our first interactions.
And, oh man, it was...
I was like, oh my gosh, Leo.
Okay. You know, I think it was a good instinct to stop trying to explain this and just be like, okay, I'll just tell you.
This isn't working. Yeah.
I don't want to explain it to you.
And then he's like, what are you talking about?
And then started following me because I was like, I need you to go.
Because you weren't even in your house, right?
No, I was outside my house.
And by the way, I mean, not that this guy sounds at all dangerous, but I think that was a very good idea because it gives you a place to go, right?
If he's in your house, then it gets all kinds of messy to get him out.
And again, I'm not saying it doesn't sound like any kind of a threat, but it just can get more challenging.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and it was challenging enough.
I mean, he followed me all the way into my yard, and then I was saying, I need you to go right now.
And he said, you have to explain this to me.
And I said, no, really, I don't have to explain this to you.
And he's like, you owe it to me.
And I said, I don't owe it to me.
Oh, buddy.
It's a good thing there's not liberal Carrie Lois in California.
Anyway... You owe me a straight-on explanation.
Because, you know, he's all about straight-on explanations and making sure that the person is clear and comfortable and understands everything that's going on.
Oh, and the next thing was even more delicious.
He said, I have been so honest with you.
And I was like...
Now...
This is how you know there's no God, because lightning did not come down to the sky and evaporate this guy's spinal cord.
Anyway. Was there any response to that, or did your jaw just sort of hit the pavement?
My jaw hit the—and I facepalmed for him.
Wow. Yeah, I pretty much, like, I put my hand in my—or my face in my hand and just went, are you seriously telling me this?
And he's like, what do you mean?
What do you mean? How have I not been?
And I was like, no, no.
No, no. I'm sorry.
No. That's not going to work.
I'm sorry. Wow.
Wow. This guy, I mean, he's a serious amount of heavy lifting and it doesn't sound like he's going to budge.
So, I mean, I'm sorry, of course, right?
So, what happened then?
And then he said, you're crazy.
And I was like, really?
Really? Okay, I'm crazy.
Like, sure, that's fine.
You can think that if you want to.
Yeah, if this is the label I need to take for the moment to get to my watch, you know, I'll put it on, I'll put an umbrella on, and I'll do a number from Greece, right?
I think it looks nice on me.
Yeah, yeah. I wear it well, right?
So he said, you're crazy, right?
Which is, I think, he knows a little bit about your history, right?
So I would assume, so that's a pretty volatile thing to say, and a pretty ugly thing.
Things to say, frankly, to call somebody crazy.
Oh, yeah. It's a pretty ugly thing to say.
Like, that's the kind of thing that really sits with people.
So, I'm sorry that you had to hear that, though.
I guess that makes it a little easier to assess what happened.
Oh, yeah. And then he...
What was the next thing?
It was basically like...
There was a time where he...
What was it? He said that I was...
Oh, I said, you had the nerve to tell me that I was cold and distant?
And then he said, no, I wasn't saying that you're cold and distant.
I was just asking if you were.
Oh, splitting hairs and fogging and equivocating and claiming ignorance.
And oh, man, I mean, is there a defense in the ninja book of evasiveness that this guy has not practiced to a nanchuk-like accuracy?
Wow. He's got it all.
He's got it all. And he was, yeah, working all of them for sure.
Oh, that's so sad.
That's so sad. Anyway, and then?
And then...
Oh, this was just after the I've been totally honest with you part.
Right. Then I was like, oh, man, I need you to go.
I need you to go right now.
This is done now.
You need to go. Don't call me.
Just leave. And then that's when he said, you are totally crazy.
Just two days ago, you said you wanted to talk to somebody, work on a relationship and all that stuff.
And now this?
I'm like, yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. He's like, you are like, oh, what did he say?
What was it? What was it?
Oh, what was it? It was something along the lines of crazy, but just a different word.
What was it? Deranged?
Yeah, it was something like that.
And then I just said, you know what?
You need to go look in a mirror and get the fuck off.
Or get the fuck out of here.
And then that's when he left and slammed the gate door and took off.
And that was... That's pretty much it.
Oh man, I felt so flushed and warm and excited, but also my heart was beating so fast.
Sure, sure, I understand that.
I understand that.
And that's what they call boundaries.
Right. I mean, it's not fun, but it's kind of exhilarating, right?
Oh man, yeah, definitely.
It is. And of course, you want relationships where these things don't have to happen, but it is kind of exhilarating to stand up to somebody who's that way.
I mean, obviously, he wasn't inflicted on you.
There was a certain amount of invitation and participation, but that was all pre-coming to light about this stuff, right?
So it is quite empowering to have standards and to look at somebody and say, You don't meet these standards.
You don't meet my standards. I don't have any need or even desire to explain myself to you, but I have the right to not speak to people I don't want to speak to.
Yeah. Right.
And how long ago did this happen?
This was about almost six o'clock.
Oh, a little while ago.
It was like 20 minutes ago. Right, right.
Wow, it's been so long since then.
And how does it feel now?
I feel really happy about it.
I feel really excited.
I did get a little bit of sadness and there was like a, I think maybe a few like split seconds of like, like a Maybe he wasn't that bad.
Maybe I should have tried a different approach.
Yeah, poor him, for sure. And in a way, indeed, poor him.
Yeah, right. Right? I mean, poor him.
This is the world that he's stuck in, right?
Where he just makes up whatever he can make up in the moment to get through the moment.
There's no long-term strategy.
There's no sacrifice for the greater personal good.
There's no Strategy other than say whatever you need to say in the moment to gain the upper hand, which is a very sad place.
I mean, I'm not saying have sympathy for the guy because, I mean, he's mature, he's educated, and he has access to all the resources in the world.
But still, it's a sad existence.
Yeah, it is. For sure.
It's sad. For sure.
Sorry, go ahead. I kind of, like, in the moment, like, right that split second that I started feeling that, I just kind of, like, asked myself if it was my feeling or if it was good for me to feel that right then.
Yeah, yeah, and it's his feeling of self-pity, I would imagine, for sure.
Yeah, yeah. Right.
Wow, wow, wow.
And... Oh, shoot, what was I going to ask you?
Oh, it's a good question, too.
Damn, I should write them down on my forearm or something.
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So just in case anybody does end up listening to this, and I know that when people...
I've certainly got some very positive feedback from the chat we had yesterday.
And thanks for letting it be posted.
What could this guy have done to have turned it around in your mind?
Oh. That's a tough question, I know.
But there's lots of people out there who may end up with someone saying, I'm afraid I'm going to need to talk to you about this in person.
Which is about as good as, you know, the boss saying, I really want to talk to you in my office alone, right?
So, what do you think he could have done to at least gain a stay of execution, so to speak?
Well, for one, read all the way through RTR. And, I mean, that would be just the very, very beginning of it.
He didn't read too much through that, right?
No, he read, like, the first, like, five pages or something, and he said it was amazing, but then didn't read any more of it.
Right. It's so amazing.
I can't take it.
It's like a vampire coming out and saying, it's really sunny.
It burns. Right.
Yeah. And he didn't say, I'm not going to read it, or he didn't say, I'm going to read it.
He just didn't. It just sort of vanished, right?
Well, it didn't vanish because he would say, like, when I was, like, asking him questions and having issues with trying to RTR with him, he'd be like, I really want to read this.
You just have to give me more time.
And, you know, like, I'm so new at this and, like, you seem to have had all this time to, like, you know, to get really good at this.
And I see that it's of value and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And he drives a lot, right?
No, not really. He does mostly landscaping around here.
He goes to the city every now and then to consult for the San Francisco stuff, the projects that he has every now and then over there.
But people who do landscaping, I mean, I see them listening to iPods.
Oh, yeah. No, he does that.
He does that. You're right. Yeah.
So he could have listened to the audiobook in like a day or two, right?
Yeah. And I actually, he said something about like, it's hard for him to sit down and read a book because he has like, you know, like ADHD or something like that.
And so I sent him the links for the audiobook and he thanked me for that.
But nothing. Right, right.
Okay. So he could have done that or at least...
You know, read five pages a day, right?
I mean, and talk about the progress, right?
It's not like he's got... Or any book that's even related, right?
In terms of honest and open communication, right?
Okay, so he could have done that.
And what else? I mean, after you called.
I mean, from the very beginning, I mean, we understand.
We talked about that last night. But after you called, is there anything that you think...
I'm not saying that he would have done, or maybe even could have done, given where he's at in his life.
But in some fantasy world, what...
Could someone have done to turn that around for you?
And I'm saying because people will be in this situation where they, you know, get in that call and they may say to themselves, well, what can I do, right?
I don't think that there could have been anything at that point.
Right.
Because, like, why would I want to put up with that or deal with that or try and, you know, like be in a position where I want him to change and, like, be something different?
He's just, that's, it's not, he's just not, not it.
Right, right.
I mean, if he'd said something like, you know, I've been thinking about things that are problematic, you know, my drive down here and this is what I've come up with and You know, I'm not saying that we should stay together, but I think it would really help in terms of closure for me to hear the problems that you have.
And I'm not going to interrupt and I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong.
Like, just please lay it all out for me so that at least we can get closure.
You know, we may not end up going out anymore, but it would be really helpful for me.
And I think it would be helpful for you if you could just tell me the things that have bothered you from the beginning.
That would be really, really helpful, I think.
Oh, that would be, yeah.
That would be pretty cool, I think.
And then you'd spill, and he'd listen, and you'd spill, and he'd listen.
And then at some point, I mean, I find that that kind of active listening can be very powerful.
I mean, it's quite an aphrodisiac after a while, but it can be very powerful.
So if he'd done, I mean, again, I'm not saying he would have, but if he could have been someone who did something like that, that's one way that I think is the only way that you have any real possibility.
Yeah, sure. Yeah, because the immediate response was defensiveness, no curiosity.
Yeah, it was evasiveness, defensiveness, you're crazy, there are no problems, you're making this all up, you're causing problems, you're insane, you're deranged, right?
So, of course, there's nothing to talk about, but if he had come over and said, you know, geez, I've really been thinking about it, and I have not been honest.
I have not been honest, and I'm really sorry about that.
I mean, I think about being that honest, and I'm really scared, and if it wasn't manipulative, right, like if he was just being straight with you, and then would listen to the complaints...
Because, I mean, if you've done someone wrong, the least that you can do for them is let them bitch at you, so to speak.
Let them dump on you. Let them, not abusively, but let them tell you.
So that at least, that's the least restitution that you can make if you've done someone wrong, is to just let them vent at you.
And that's, I think, the kindest thing that you can do in a way to help them get some kind of closure.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that would have been incredible.
That would have been pretty...
Pretty cool to see. Right.
Well, I'm telling you, my prediction is that these kinds of guys, they won't bother you anymore.
I don't think you need to worry about falling into this kind of thing again, because once you've drawn this line of the sand, it's this weird kind of thing.
People kind of smell it from six miles away, like those forest fires that burn over the mountain.
They kind of, oh, wait, this woman has boundaries and confidence.
Ooh, maybe I'll just keep on moseying down the road.
You know, it's like the jackal coming across the healthy antelope with strong horns.
They're like, hmm, I think I'll wait for something weaker and sicklier, if that makes any sense.
So, I mean, I know it's a difficult and exciting and painful thing to do, but it's the kind of thing, in my experience, you kind of only need to do...
Once in your life.
And then you just get this weird aura where people are like, oh, the woman comes armed, I think, right?
That would be a total relief if that were the case.
It was really, really hard.
And it wasn't hard in the moment, really, but a lot of the thinking about it beforehand, I had a lot of anxiety and a lot of doubts about my ability to do that.
And then once I did it, it was just like...
Wow. That was totally amazing.
It is. And I mean, you have an enormous amount to be proud of.
I mean, what a distance to travel, let alone 10 weeks, but in one freaking day.
I mean, you've got that Superwoman invisible airplane parked on the roof, right?
I mean, that is an amazing thing, I think, that you did.
And I think it's a turning point at a real breakthrough and something to just be fantastically proud of.
Oh, thank you so much.
Oh, you're welcome. Thank you.
I mean, it's magnificent to see.
It really is. Yeah.
All right. Well, my daughter is up crushingly late because she napped this afternoon, so I should try and get her down.
And I don't want to sort of like gossip and run, but I really did want to find out what happened and how you were doing because I know it was a tough transition.
But, you know, massive kudos and congratulations.
Oh, thank you so much, Jeff.
You're welcome. Keep you posted. Bye.
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