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Feb. 26, 2010 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:11:52
1594 Rear View Canoe - A Listener Conversation
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Alright, so I guess I'm all ears.
What's the story?
Well, I definitely want to mention I'm feeling incredibly anxious right now.
And the thought is that there's going to be lots of face palms.
Like dotes.
But, so yeah, so basically...
I'm just going to put some...
Some padded gloves on and I would certainly suggest that other people either wear a soft leathery helmet or and do not wear sunglasses because that can break.
But sorry, please go on. So yeah, I got into a relationship just recently.
This was maybe a month and a half ago.
And just to kind of, I guess, clarify what the topic was, it's about self-trust as far as this new relationship goes for myself.
Yeah, so I can start.
So basically, I have stopped myself from breaking up with this person like four times.
And I keep talking myself out of it, thinking like how much room to give to people just starting out and haven't done philosophy, haven't done FDR and isn't...
You know, hasn't read RTR and all that stuff, so...
So yeah, I'm basically getting into a conversation with him and right when I'm about to, like, say this is not going to work, I stop myself and I... And then afterwards, I kind of, I guess, come up with reasons why I shouldn't do it and...
I've gotten a lot of red flags and RTR with him has been completely impossible.
It's like RTRing with a fog machine.
And I'm getting really warm right now.
Right, right. I mean, I'm happy to continue listening or I can ask questions.
Of course, whenever I start hearing stuff, I always come up with 10 million questions just to set the stage, but I'm happy to listen if you wanted to keep talking.
But usually when people stall, it's because they're not sure what to say next.
Yeah, no, please, please go ahead.
Okay. And how long have you been going out with this fellow?
About a month and a half.
And what was your attraction, David?
Well, funny.
Sorry.
He's cute and funny.
Sorry.
We'll braid each other's hair and continue.
I might be at work a little longer than you.
Pretty much he came across as really curious, especially about me.
He asked me very direct questions.
Like, pretty much.
And our first date was at a fungus fair.
They, like, set up mushrooms.
I'm sorry. Just checking my audio here.
Did you say fungus fair?
Fungus fair, yeah.
Yeah. Well, actually, we hung out one time before that and it was...
No, no, no, no, no. Not before, but the fungus fair.
Let's just pause for a moment to enjoy the resonance of that first date environment of a fungus fair.
Because to me, that sounds like the hot tub in Jersey Shore.
But it's probably not the same thing for you.
So perhaps you could explain that a little.
Yeah, well, I'm into mushrooms.
I like going out and picking mushrooms.
I've done it since I was pretty young.
Mainly just one type.
But yeah, wild mushrooms.
And so we went on a...
It was basically a class for wild mushroom identification.
And that was kind of the first thing that we did together.
It was just kind of, you know, it was a big group of us and we got to walk around the woods and identify mushrooms.
And so, yeah, so basically we both had an interest in that and so we went to the fungus fair and chatted.
Definitely, the first things that I kind of liked about him, and this was before we even were introduced or anything, was he was kind of soft-spoken and very engaging, like eye contact and pretty confident.
He's a botanist, too.
He does native plant landscaping and He's pretty successful in his career.
He did a lot of work on the green roof at the Academy of Sciences in San Francisco.
It was a lot of direct questioning and definitely intelligent, interested in science.
He basically talked a lot about And certain studies that he had been reading about and listening about.
He has a, not a podcaster, but a radio person that he likes to listen to on AM radio.
So he had a lot of interesting things to talk about.
And he minored in psychology.
And later on I found out that he had gone to therapy for two years.
Yeah. And, yeah, I'm fogging now.
Oh, no problem. I just wonder, because I can hear some background noise, I'm just wondering if perhaps spores or fungus might be creeping up behind you.
Do you feel anything slithering over your shoulder?
It just sounds like you're in the middle of a spore fest, but no problem.
Well, this all sounds, I mean, far from face planting, this all sounds like a highly good potential.
I mean, that's what it seems like to me.
It's not like, you know, well, he fell through the roof of my house while trying to break in.
I saw that he had a butterfly tattoo on his left butt, and I'm like, hey, you're the guy for me.
But next time, please, if you're going to rob somebody, at least we're a jock.
So this is not that kind of guy, right?
This is a guy who's an intelligent, educated, he's done some therapy, he knows something about psychology, you share an interest in mushrooms, which, you know, it's not a wide net that you would be able to cast to find people who fit that category.
So that doesn't sound so bad.
No, and he's an atheist too.
Well, you know, he studied science and biology, so the likelihood is he's either completely mental or an atheist, right?
So, okay. Right.
Yeah, and so basically those were the first kind of things, and you know I'm going to start going into the not-so-attractive things now.
Well, no, I mean, if you don't mind, I mean, I'd like to know a little bit more about...
I don't date anymore, so please, let me live vicariously.
What are we wearing on our first date?
I mean, so you started chatting with this guy.
I guess there was a mutual attraction.
I mean, you found him physically attractive, is that right?
Not right away, but yeah, after I spent more time with him...
Right away? He's covered in fungus.
Of course you're not going to find him. You've got to scrub him down, get a hazmat suit or two on and full body condom and then have a hug or at least a handshake.
Okay, so, but there was at least some attraction in terms of getting to know each other, and did you guys decide to go on a date, and what happened then?
Yeah, basically he was a customer at my work, and he would come in.
It's been like, God, about eight months that he's been coming in, but I really didn't notice him until he introduced himself to me.
And, I mean, I recognized him as a customer, but he didn't stand out to me as far as, like, a potential date or anything like that.
And, yeah, and so we talked quite a bit at the restaurant.
It was kind of difficult because I would, you know, I had to do my job during that time, so I couldn't really relax.
But, so...
So then I invited him to a kayaking trip that a bunch of my co-workers and I were going to do.
And he happened to own a kayak, and there's kind of a lot of those things.
We're definitely interested in a lot of the same things.
Wait, so come on, come on.
I mean, this is starting to sound like this is invented, right?
I mean, he likes mushrooms, and you're like, hey, I'm into kayaking.
I have a kayak? I mean, was it new?
Like, did he rip the tag off?
And he's like, oh yeah, I've had this thing for years.
Was he that into you? And it's like, fuck, okay, I'll go buy a kayak.
Oh, fine, I'll be into mushrooms, whatever.
Come on. You must have read my plus list.
Sorry? You must have read my plus list.
Right, right, right. Backstreet Boys, their first tour.
I was at every show.
I loved them because I think I read that somewhere about you.
That's the tattoo of the boys on his back or something.
But anyway, okay.
So you have a lot in common in terms of hobbies and stuff like that.
And you're both in the league of superhero people who get lots of things done and go out a lot and see sunshine and all that.
So this is good.
Sorry, please go on.
Sure. So basically, after I asked him...
To go kayaking, he said, sure.
And then he happened to leave at the same time that I was getting off work.
Sorry, he was leaving the restaurant.
It's like, oh, she's getting off work.
Quick, give me the check! I'm looking outside wearing some sort of canoe with spores.
Right, okay. And so, yeah, so...
We ran into each other outside and then he said, hey, I just want to make sure and let you know that there's no misunderstandings or whatever, but I'm seeing somebody right now.
Wait, sorry, I just have to adjust my helmet.
Three, two, one.
Oh, there we go.
Okay.
So he tells you, so you're sort of flirting a little bit or you're chatting with the guy and you invite him to come kayaking.
And he says, yes, I have a kayak.
It's in my pants and I'm very pleased to see you.
And then outside he says, listen, I just wanted to let you know that I'm seeing somebody else while accepting a quasi date invitation from you.
Yeah.
And the immediate thing that I said was like, oh, maybe she can come too.
And then you can hand palm that one too, but...
Especially for the double entendre, but that's just a minor bit of icing on a shit sandwich.
Okay, so when he said that, what was your first feeling?
Humiliation. Right, because that's the moment, right?
That to me is the important moment, because that's before everything, right?
Right. I don't know who that is typing, but...
Please mute yourself if you can.
Okay, because I think that that moment is really important.
And I'm joking aside, I'm really sorry.
That is a seriously crappy thing to do to someone, in my opinion.
But I think it's that moment that is important.
So he says that.
I mean, did that take you by surprise?
Yes. Yeah, it did take me by surprise.
Because, you know, to me it was like, you know, there's flirtation going on and there's all these things.
And then he's like, well, I just want to make sure there's no misunderstanding.
It's like, but...
It doesn't seem to me like that was a very fair thing to say to you.
That's interesting because after the humiliation, I started feeling like, well, that's really honest of him.
I don't think that was.
I don't think that was. You see, I don't have to say that to anyone.
I mean, I really don't have to say.
I never have to say just so there's no misunderstanding, right?
Yeah. Right.
Because there is no misunderstanding.
My, you know, my communication lines are pretty clear with people.
I don't get into a lot of confusing situations where some guy shows up, I don't know, with fishing tackle for a kite flying expedition, right?
I mean, I don't, because I'm being sort of clear up front.
Now, so then he says, just so that there's no confusion, that is a very interesting thing to say.
Because, I mean, I'm always about, look at the very, very first thing.
That is of any significance more than, you know, what did you have for lunch or whatever.
But that's very interesting.
Because he's sort of saying that you may be going ahead of where he wants to or is able to go.
Right. But I'm telling you, You don't do that.
If you're in a relationship, you don't accept invitations from single members of the opposite sex to go out.
Yeah. Like, you just don't.
I mean, to me, that's not even close.
Right. And you certainly don't wait to say, after you've accepted the invitation, that you're seeing someone.
Right. I didn't even think of that, yeah.
I mean, tell me if I'm way too old-fashioned or whatever, but that just seems to me like a pretty basic thing.
Sure.
Yeah.
So I think mixed signals are pretty evident there.
Yeah.
Definitely. Okay, so...
I'd still like to know more about what occurred for you when he said that, because obviously it took you significantly by surprise.
And it seems to me that it would, because that is not average behavior.
That is not behavior within the bounds of common courtesy, right?
Like, let's say that you and I are at the airport, right?
We don't know each other, and we're both waiting for a cab.
And we get into a cab.
It's really cold. I say, I'm going to Mississauga.
And you say, hey, I live in Mississauga.
There's no other cabs coming.
Do you mind if we split a cab, right?
And I say, sure. I've done that before, so let's split a cab, right?
And then you ask me on a date, which, of course, you would be inevitably drawn to do.
I mean, that's just like...
But no, you ask me out on a date, and I say, oh, I'm sorry.
I'm married, right? Right.
That to me is an example.
We've barely talked, right?
That to me would be misunderstanding the situation, right?
Right. But if you've been chatting with someone, you've seen this guy for eight months, I assume he's not been in there necking with some harem, right?
So, I mean, there's no particular, he doesn't have a ring on his finger.
There's no particular evidence.
He's never mentioned a girlfriend.
I know that you guys haven't had long-involved chats over that eight-month period, but then you're chatting a little bit and you're talking about shared interests and so on.
Right. That's flirty behavior, right?
It definitely was.
Right, right, right.
So it's a very weird thing.
To say, in my opinion, like to go through that phase and then to say, hey, I'm seeing someone, right?
Yeah, and I'm seeing all of the interactions since that interaction unfolding before my eyes, and I'm like, no.
Right. Oh, man.
Oh, do you need a moment for your own face palm?
Do you need a moment for that?
No, but this is about prevention, not cure, right?
Philosophy is about prevention, not cure, in my opinion, so...
So the question is, is the self-RTR in that moment, right?
What would have been the most honest thing, and I'm not saying you should have been honest to him, but let's say you were to say the most honest thing to say in that moment when he said, I'm seeing someone.
You mean to him or to myself?
It doesn't matter in particular.
Sometimes it can be easier to think of saying it to someone else because it's a little clearer.
But either way, whichever one works.
Then why are you flirting with me?
That's... Now, that is honest, but that's not very honest, because you know the answer to that, right?
Artya, I'm... Right, you know, you mentioned the book earlier, right?
So let's pretend that we both read it and talk about it.
Because that's sort of a confrontational question, and that comes out of anger.
And I think the anger is justified, in my opinion, because I think that that's a mean trick to play on someone, right?
To flirt, to chat, to have them ask you out, or, you know, whatever.
And then say, I'm involved with someone.
That's That's a jerky thing to do to someone, in my opinion.
And that, to me, would be something to get annoyed at, if not angry about.
And that's what you say, well, why are you flirting with me?
It's because you know the answer to that, right?
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
I guess it would be...
I'm feeling a bit humiliated right now.
Go on. A bit.
Yeah. Is it that you have the feelings but you're not sure how to put them into words or are the feelings themselves hard to access?
To put them into words, I'm shaking right now.
Right. Right.
Because this can't be an unfamiliar situation to you in your life, this bait and switch, this Where the other person acts as if something is completely normal when something is not normal.
Right. Pushing the entire weight of craziness on you, right?
Like, when someone flirts with you, and then you ask them out, and they say yes, and they haven't mentioned at all that they're in a relationship, and then afterwards they say, oh, just so there's no misunderstanding, they're placing the onus of misunderstanding on you.
Oh, right. Like, let me give you a silly example.
Like, you work in a restaurant, right?
So I come in And I order, I don't know, what's your most expensive dish?
Something with fish, probably, right?
Some monster fish. I'm sorry?
Lobster Monet. Okay, Lobster Monet.
For those who don't know, that's lobster done in a French impressionistic style.
Oh, he's on tonight, ladies and gentlemen.
I've been speaking to too many economists, so I have to get these out of my system.
So I order the Lobster Monet, and...
Some dessert and your most expensive bottle of wine, right?
And then after I finish and I burp and I say to you as my waiter, I say, hey, listen, just so there's no misunderstanding, I don't have any money.
Right. Right?
You'd say, what do you mean just so there's no misunderstanding?
It's a restaurant. There were prices on the menu.
You have to have money.
No, I never said I had any money.
I just came in and asked for food.
Right. I never said to you that I have any money.
If, hey, you make those assumptions, that's your business.
Right? But there are certain norms to human behavior that it's pretty jerky to pretend that they're confusing or that they're...
Like, you flirt with someone, they ask you out.
I mean, you don't say that you have a...
First, you don't flirt with anyone if you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend.
You just don't. You just don't.
And if you do, you say, I'm really sorry.
Like, I mean, if I was in that situation, I mean, Lord knows how, right?
Some alternate life, right?
I'd say, oh, look, I'm really sorry.
I find you very attractive.
I really am enjoying my conversation with you.
I have been flirting with you.
I have a girlfriend.
It is not right, and I've done you wrong.
It's not right. I've misled.
I've confused. I really apologize.
I really would like to keep chatting.
Obviously, I have some stuff to work out in my relationship, to say the least, but it's not fair for me to do what I did, and I'm really, really sorry.
Not like, hey, just so there's no misunderstanding, I ordered the food, but I don't have any money, right?
That's after the fact, right?
And so this was a very challenging moment for you.
A very challenging moment.
Because there's something awful that would have happened in the past if you had called someone on that kind of surreptitious injection of near-pure crazy, right?
Yeah, when I got in my truck and drove away, I just started crying.
Right. Right.
So that moment where he says...
All right. We haven't had much luck with the RTR, so let's go to Fantasy Wonder Woman Tough Person, which you definitely have within you, right?
What would you have loved to say to this guy at the time?
Oh, man.
Now, it could be, please bend over, sir.
I think I found a place for your canoe.
Yeah, it's something along those lines.
No, but what would you really have liked to say to this guy in that moment where he said, by the way, just so there's no misunderstanding, I do have a girlfriend.
Because your response was to fall into his crazy, right?
And say, well, it's not like a date.
You can bring your girlfriend. I'm fine with that.
Right? Right.
I mean, I really sympathize with that reaction, and I totally understand it, I think.
But what would you have really liked to say to this person and to all the other people in our lives who pull this kind of stuff?
And it's not like everyone, but it's enough that I think we all have some annoyance over, if not anger, over these kinds of situations.
Yeah. No luck with that one, eh? I guess your other words was, well, why are you flirting, right?
Yeah. But that to me is sort of, that puts the ball back in his court, right?
Right. I'm getting how dare you, and then it goes blank for me.
But that's good. How dare you is, I think, quite valid.
Yeah. Like, how dare you?
Yeah. How dare you flirt with me?
I ask you out. And it's not even...
I mean, the thing that pops into my mind, and I'm certainly not trying to put words in your mouth, but this is sort of what pops into my mind, and I can share a similar situation if you're at all interested, but it'd be something like this.
It's like, okay, so you've known me for eight months off and on.
We've been chatting. We've been flirting a little bit.
I ask you out. You accept going out.
And then on the way out, you say to me, just so there's no misunderstanding...
And it's not even that you didn't tell me you have a girlfriend.
It's not even that you accepted my invitation on a date without telling me you're a girlfriend.
It's not even that you're telling me now that bothers me so much, buddy.
What bothers me is that you have this vague inkling that somehow it would be me who's misunderstanding the situation.
That I'm just so confused that I misread social cues.
Very innocent things I suddenly spin into this relationship or this potential relationship.
No. You were leading me on.
You were flirting with me.
You accepted an invitation that was clearly, A date.
And then you say, just so there's no misunderstanding, hey buddy, this is a misunderstanding that you have fueled and created.
Don't you dare put this misunderstanding on me.
You jerk me around and then you blame me for being confused or potentially confused?
That is ridiculous. Okay.
I think that you should go to your girlfriend.
She's obviously a very lucky woman.
What? What a catch!
I will watch you go thinking, there goes the best man I'll ever know!
What a prince!
Because, you know, I think that it's really, really important.
To have complicated and confusing mind games before we even have our first date!
Oh, what a beautiful thing that is to behold as what's coming rolling down the future like the big huge stone ball at the beginning of Indiana Jones.
Look at that! We have mind games and passive aggressive jerking around and projection before we've even left the parking lot after I asked you out on our first date!
Thank you for that blinding flash of clarity stupid.
Oh. Oh man.
Oh, man.
And if you ever come back to this restaurant, I can promise you, no matter what you order, I will be adding my own special sauce And I have to give you several guesses as to what that might be.
But let me tell you this.
It's a good thing you're a biologist because you're going to need some pretty sophisticated equipment to find out not only where it is, but where the hell it came from in my body.
Okay. Jerk!
Oh my god! You may have guessed that I've had some similar situations.
I have so many fantasy rebuttals and speeches going on.
Ridiculous. But anyway, those are the kind of situations.
Those are the thoughts that would be rolling around in my head.
Oh man.
That just totally blew my mind.
What did? What I was just saying.
The whole thing.
Right. The whole thing.
I'm feeling really sad.
And angry. Right.
Right. Pissed.
I have been like...
I'm searching for anything that I could be doing wrong in this interaction.
I have changed my behavior.
I have...
Sorry, now which interaction do you mean?
You mean since then? Yeah, since then.
Right. Well, do you want to tell me what's happened since?
Not really.
I can understand that.
So what you're saying is it doesn't get better from here, right?
Oh, it goes...
It's the same exact thing.
Where you get cross signals, you get mixed signals, and then he blames you for being confused?
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah. And then I feel confused, and I'm like, oh, wait, what am I doing?
What could I do better? I must have a conclusion here.
I'm working with the wrong premise.
All of this intellectual stuff.
Right. And, uh...
Oh, man...
Now, tell me about, again, let's just go back to that moment.
Please, listen, I do get that you're really feeling strongly, and I really want to focus on that.
And please let me know if you feel that I'm sort of brushing past your emotions.
I really want to know where it's coming from, but I was really struck by what you said when you talked about the first moment was one of humiliation.
Yeah. And tell me a little bit more about that.
So he says, listen, just so there's no misunderstanding, I do have a girlfriend.
This is how these guys always sound to me.
They've got these pencil-thin mustaches and vaguely smelly smoking jackets and so on.
They absolutely do not come with canoes.
But you felt humiliated.
And just tell me a little bit more about that.
Sure. Um yeah I felt like um um I haven't thought about this yet so I'm just trying to kind of It's hard to put this shit into practice,
isn't it? It really is hard, because this is all like what happened in the first moment, self-RTR. But this is, again, this is not any sort of negativity, because Lord knows I don't do this stuff nearly as regularly as I should or as I preach.
But it's really hard to do this stuff, right?
Because we get swept up in this blazing defense and history of the moment.
And it's just, I just wanted, like, it's really hard to do this stuff, because this is all stuff that intellectually you know you need to do, right?
Yeah. Yeah. But it's weeks and weeks, and it's hard to do.
It's hard to do. Right?
So tell me about this humiliation.
Did you feel humiliation like you had done something wrong?
Like you had somehow misunderstood something?
Yeah. Yeah, like it was...
Like there was something that I wasn't getting in the interactions we had before.
Like, was he flirting?
Maybe he was just being nice.
Like, maybe, like, my, you know, what do you call it?
Your radar, kind of your social cues and so on, right?
Is off, and I, like, and how could I not have seen this before?
Or, you know, thought about this as a possibility?
Yeah, like, I should have known without him telling me.
Right, okay, so your social radar tracking unconscious EQ or emotional intelligence or whatever you felt was way off and that that exposed you to humiliation, to just getting things plain wrong, right? Yeah.
Now, just a very tiny speech and then we'll get back to it, but I think it's important.
I'm so much more committed to the philosophy that we talk about here since becoming a parent than I ever was before, and I was pretty fucking committed before, but I am a million times more so, because I see the degree to which my daughter, she's just turned 14 months, she has incredible social instincts, incredible social instincts, she's born with them.
I mean, just a very, very brief example of what I mean, right?
I take her to the library or I take her to play center, so if my wife's around, she'll go too.
And so she gets the enormous joys of interacting with other children, right?
And I sort of feel that's just a gauntlet she has to run because she's going to have to deal with other kids at points, right?
But I'm always a little bit edgy because I view kids as kind of Most kids, it's a little random.
A few of them are nice, but they're a bit random.
Now, when someone is being genuinely nice to her, like a kid comes over and wants to interact with her and so on, she lights up, right?
But when a kid comes over and is kind of, you know how kids can be kind of like, they're kind of throwy, they're kind of like their arms flail around, they're just A little bit dissociated and out of control, she immediately will start to withdraw or she will not give them that same positive feedback.
If someone does something to make her laugh and it's warm-hearted and funny, then she will laugh.
But if some kid comes along with like, you know, like where it's just too much, she won't respond as if it's funny, right?
So she really is very accurately reading the Unconsciouses of everyone around her.
She is accurately perceiving their true natures and identities.
And this is before she can regularly identify a piece of fruit from a sense of language.
But she has this incredible social engine processing.
And this is why it was so great to read Alison Glopnik and Bloom and the other people who've written about babies developing emotional intelligence.
But... Social cues are more fundamental to us than language, you know, with the sample size of my daughter and some books that I've read, right?
So this is just what I understand.
So your social cues, your ability to accurately process social cues comes somewhere between suckling your first piece of breast milk and putting your first two words together.
It's really core, it is really embedded and of course we can understand that it makes perfect sense for kids to be able to read social cues in their environment because kids who were offensive would be abandoned or whatever, right?
So the reason that I'm telling you this narrative is that you have social instincts and they're very powerful.
You have them, they're embedded within you.
But the problem is That they offended someone.
Because, as I talked about in the parenting series, children light up the souls of those around them with this very harsh, unforgiving light.
And if the perceptiveness of children illuminates something in a caregiver that the caregiver can't handle, doesn't like, finds repulsive, finds revolting, hates in themselves or something, then that social...
The processing intelligence of the baby, of the child, of the infant, of the toddler, represents what the caregiver perceives as a vicious attack upon them.
Right. And you don't have to get into any specifics.
I'm obviously perfectly happy to listen, but I'm just sort of giving you the principle so that you can understand that your social intelligence was most likely attacked by By somebody in your environment because the perceptiveness was offensive to his or her relationship with himself or herself.
Yeah. Children see very, very deeply into the souls of those around them.
And I see this.
I mean, my daughter, it is...
I mean, it makes going through an airport security checkout look like you're encased in lead a thousand miles under field.
Compared to this, right?
Great. There was someone posted based on a convo I had with someone recently about social cues.
How do we learn the second language?
Well, you don't learn the second language.
You have to be taught to attack your own processing that is innate and natural about social cues.
And that's why I think that moment where you feel humiliated It's really, really important because I think it represents a long history of you perceiving something in your environment and then being attacked for that perception.
Does that ring a bell?
Does that strike a chord?
And do you want to talk about that?
Do you want me to keep rambling? What would work best for you?
The connection I made was the feeling of humiliation would be what would happen after I actually expressed anger or something like that from a slight or a wrongdoing from somebody else.
And that anger would be punished, like it was the wrong thing to feel.
And so I'd feel humiliation in that moment.
And I know that's happened many, many, many times.
And I still have a really difficult time remembering my childhood.
And I have gotten a few memories Back recently.
And I tell you what, this relationship sure brought up the Mika system like crazy.
It's been incredible.
And in this sense, it's not at all a waste, in my opinion.
Yeah. Oh, man.
No. Yeah. It's been so visceral.
And the visualizations have been amazing.
And I've talked to like 12 different characters.
It's been incredible for that, for sure.
All right. Now, let me ask you another question.
About this humiliation?
Yeah.
Are you sure that it's yours?
Hmm.
Hmm.
Right, because I think that it's very important to...
The first thing I ask myself when I'm feeling a strong emotion is, is this mine or somebody else's?
Right. Huh.
Is this organic or is this inflicted?
Yeah, it was a very, very strong feeling.
And I mean, it moved me to tears.
Because who was acting in a way that was humiliating?
Oh, yeah.
Was it you or was it the fellow?
The fellow, for sure.
Yeah! For sure.
And he was in a situation where he could have been severely bitch-slapped.
Not to call you a slap, right?
But he could have...
I mean, if you had had this...
Conscious within your mind.
Yeah. Then you would have said to him, I'm sorry, you what?
You have a girlfriend?
Right. Are you crazy?
What's the matter with you?
Don't flirt with me for days.
Have me ask you out and then, like the speech that I gave earlier, right?
Yeah. That would have been very humiliating to him, right?
Oh, yeah. It would.
Yeah. Do you think your girlfriend is going to be very proud of this behavior?
Are you going to be able to say, well, yes, I accepted an invitation from a single woman?
He would have been very humiliated if you had, and look, I'm not saying, please don't kick yourself or anything, I'm just saying that this humiliation that was in the air was not, I mean, you were acting, to me, with honor and integrity, and I think with courage.
I mean, you found the guy interesting, you wanted to get to know him better, you asked him out.
I mean, that is all acting honestly, above the board, with the best of intentions, in a way that is following your heart, and so on, right?
I mean, that seems to me, it's entirely good behavior.
Right. What this turdomatic ass-clan was doing was not honorable.
Right. Right?
Right. So that's why I'm asking, is it even your humiliation?
I don't think so.
Oh man, I would have loved to have been angry at that point.
That would have been great. Well, still can.
He's still around, right?
He's still around. And, you know, maybe there are some dangerous spores.
No, I'm kidding. But that's the important thing, right?
Because it's important to me to always try and delineate the complexity of what is going on in a situation where I freeze or I panic.
And look, it happens. It happens to all of us.
It happens to all of us.
You're not being left in the dust anywhere.
We're all trying to struggle to stay conscious during these times of great stressors.
So what that means is that when other people inflicted their emotional burdens on you, and as DeMoss says, the poison container, right?
The feelings that are unbearable for the parent or caregiver get dumped into the child, right?
It means that you were not allowed to establish boundaries where you don't accept those feelings.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And in fact, not allowed is a nice way of putting it.
When people unjustly dump on us, I think that the fair and in fact in the long run the kind thing to do is to say, no, no, no, this is not about me.
It's not about me is a fundamentally empowering statement to make.
It's something I certainly had to do over the years.
There's a few haters out there.
It's nothing to do with me.
It's nothing to do with me.
It would be mad vanity to think that it has anything to do with me.
And in the same way, it would be mad vanity to think that the praise that people give me, which far outweighs the haters, right?
It would be mad vanity for me to say that the praise is all to do with me.
It's not. People are...
I mean, they're happy that I'm doing what I'm doing, but the praise is fundamentally, I think, a compliment to themselves, right?
It's not fundamentally about me.
Because, I mean, they just get some podcasts, but it's their own excitement, their own desire, their own sense of A higher, better, stronger, faster, more ethical purpose in life that is exciting them.
And I think it's self-praise for themselves, which I think is just and earned.
It's not fundamentally for me either way.
But that thing where you say, you know, you put the big hunking line in the sand and you say, this is not about me.
So he flirts and he accepts an invitation out and then he tries to, you know, imply that you're somehow confused if you don't magically divine that this guy who's been flirting and accepting imply that you're somehow confused if you don't magically divine that this guy who's been flirting and accepting date Yep.
Okay.
It has nothing to do with you fundamentally.
It's his shallowness, his insecurity, his vanity, his lack of love in his life.
I mean, he obviously doesn't love his girlfriend if he's willing to do this kind of crappy behavior.
He obviously doesn't love himself if he's willing to confuse honorable, good, decent, honest women like yourself and then give off mixed signals and then blame them for being confused.
That's petty and destructive in a small way.
So it's got nothing to do with you, right?
So if you feel that humiliation, first question to ask is, whose is this?
You know, it's like, I don't know if you've ever had this, right?
I mean, you live in a sunny climate, right?
So I'm sure you have, right? You look down.
I don't know, I've had this a couple of times in my life.
You look down on your leg, right?
And you're like, that's a huge fucking wart.
What the hell is that thing, right?
And then you reach and you flick.
It's just a piece of something stuck to your leg, right?
Where you sort of say, what the hell is this thing?
You brush it off, it's like, okay, good.
I'm not throwing another leg.
It was just some crap on my leg, right?
So it's not part of my body, it just landed on me from someplace else, right?
And that's the thing with something like humiliation.
You're looking down, you're saying, oh my god, this humiliation.
And say, wait a second, is this part of my body?
Or is this something that somebody just wretched up on me?
Sure. And the way to find out is that the negative feeling accrues to the person who's performing the negative behavior.
I wish that was a more poetic way of doing it.
The shit on your body comes from the person taking a dump in public.
Maybe that's the more poetic way of putting it, right?
You did not soil yourself a seagull, right?
Something landed on your hat, right?
Right. Right.
But I think that's, you know, if you are acting honorably and courageously and so on, which it sounds to me completely like you were, humiliation does not result from being brave and courageous and honest and so on, right?
Right. Right.
And so if you're feeling that sense of humiliation and you've been acting in a good way, first thing I look around, doot, doot, doot, right?
Send out the laser philosophy doves of attacking death killer instincts and say, okay, who's acting badly that I'm feeling this way.
Right. Oh man, I need to make a phone call.
Wait, wait, wait!
I still don't know what happened. But no, listen, I mean, I know I've talked a lot and I didn't want to, again, blow past the feelings that you were having, but is this in the realm of helpful?
Is this useful? Is this...
This is hugely, hugely, hugely helpful.
It's a...
It's...
Hello? I was like...
Just kind of strolling past all of these red flags.
And I'm like, well, at least I'm conscious that there are red flags.
Oh, man.
Now, why did you want the call now rather than when this happened first?
I have a feeling, and it's a common thing for me, where I kind of feel like I can do this on my own. where I kind of feel like I can do this This is something, you know, like I'm a big girl or something like that.
But it's like, yeah, it's like a feeling of like, if I can't do this now on my own, then how am I ever going to do this?
And it's kind of like, I guess, a way to isolate myself.
Right. And the I'll solve it on my own is a very perilous position, in my opinion, to be in.
Right. As I said before, and I'm sure I'll say again, problems created in solitude cannot be solved in solitude, right?
Right. And if you have something where the first thing you feel is humiliation followed by an overcompensation to the point where you're reassuring This turdnip about his behavior, right?
Yeah. Yeah, no, I... Oh, don't bring your girlfriend.
That'd be lovely. Me?
I was never... And you disown your own prior actions.
It's like, well, how could you have possibly imagined this?
I get that it's not a date.
Who would have imagined that it was a date, right?
When, like, 30 seconds before, it's like, hey, I have a date, right?
Right. And that's a clue that it might not be something that you can drag the full Titanic to the light of consciousness right away, and that help.
Just sounding board, I mean, I hope people understand, like, I'm talking to people a lot too, right?
I mean, I'm not sitting here sailing away in my Howard Rock splendor of sunshiny isolation, right?
I'm constantly in conversation with people, right?
I don't think that I can do it a lot.
And you know why? Why would I want to?
I spent 20 years having to do it alone.
I spent 30 years having to do it alone.
And it didn't work very well, frankly, at all.
Right. Right?
So why would I? I mean, I try to do...
I'm very much one of the opposite, right?
I'm the opposite guy, right?
Whatever was going on in the past that caused these problems, I'm just going to grit my teeth.
And I'm gonna do the opposite.
I'm like, cause George Costanza in that crazy upside-down Seinfeld world.
You know, I'm just gonna do the opposite.
If every instinct I have is wrong, the opposite must be right.
So for me, well, I was isolated as a kid.
Consciously and aggressively isolated by my family.
So I'm not going to be isolated now.
I'm not. I'm not.
Because isolation is the same damn thing as the past.
Just do the opposite.
Right.
And I'm not saying that it's ideal to have this massive Shakespearean speech turning this guy into a smoking ash of redundant hypocrisy in the parking lot.
I'm not saying that that's the ideal.
I think it's perfectly fine to pacify people in the moment, oh no, that's fine, and then just call and say, oh, the trip's off and we're not right.
You can just shuffle this guy out of your life without a backwards glance.
It doesn't matter whether you can rise to the magnificence of speech in the moment, because Lord knows I don't have that for my own standard, because otherwise I'd just be constantly berating myself for not writing to the heights of eloquence that I can in moments of stress and panic.
But the important thing is that you get it at least afterwards, right?
In the drive home, you say, wow, this was really a big thing for me.
I really backtracked.
I reversed. And it wasn't like I did it as a conscious strategy.
Like, I didn't look at this guy and say...
Oh, are you kidding me, Mr.
Oily Slimy Nipple Dude?
I mean, come on, right?
You didn't sort of say, yeah, okay, fine, bring your girlfriend, because I know what you're all about, and know that you were consciously doing it.
I think it was really unconscious, right?
Yeah. No, yeah, the girl, like, oh, she can come, was, like, automatic, just, like, instantaneous.
Yeah. I did not even think about it before it was...
Yeah, you couldn't express your hurt, you couldn't express your shock, you couldn't express your anger, you couldn't...
Right? And it doesn't matter whether you express it to this guy, because where does he show up in the equation of your life?
Nowhere, right? But the important thing is, can you express it to yourself?
Oh, shit. I just...
Otherwise, we end up focusing on the other person in that interaction.
Ah, how am I going to get this person?
How am I going to... Right? It doesn't matter.
Forget them. Forget them.
Right? They're a plane flying by overhead while you're half asleep.
It doesn't matter. It's barely a rumble in the night sky.
What matters is that you can say it to yourself.
That you can sit with your own thoughts and feelings and recognize what happened and accept what happened.
And don't continue that self-rejection and reversal and self-attack afterwards.
And trust. Trust your instincts.
These instincts are so powerful.
These social instincts are so powerful.
I don't think they can be unlearned.
I think that they can continually be pounded on, but I don't think they can be unlearned.
Human beings can't be broken, fundamentally.
They can be turned to evil, in my opinion, but they can't be broken if they have any shred of integrity left.
If human beings could be broken, we wouldn't need such a constant stream of propaganda from birth till death, right?
Because at some point, let's say children could be turned into complete state drones by the age of 10, well then you'd be able to let them go out of school, right?
But you have to continually pound them with propaganda and flags and anthems and Olympics and wars and The cults of personalities and Barack Obama's evil serpent's silver tongue.
You wouldn't need to keep propagandizing people if they could truly be broken.
And I would say that your instincts are probably, if not, I would just take the assumption that they're bang on and don't join in other people in attacking your own instincts.
It's like, you can conform in the moment, but just say, no, this was weird.
You know, it just was weird.
Yeah. But you get so little, and the last speech I promise, we all get so little agreement about basic, basic, basic things in life.
Basic things in life.
We just get no agreement from the people around us.
And that is really chilling and something that I've obviously tried to remedy in my way through these kinds of conversations.
I mean, I'm with you 150%.
I think that, you know, and I've already told you what I think of this guy.
But We just don't get basic agreement about basic things in our life, right?
So somebody treats us badly and we complain to someone, what do they always say?
Oh, you must have misunderstood something.
I'm sure they were just having a bad day.
Well, you know, maybe you should have said something such.
Or maybe this, or maybe that.
Or, well, they're just doing the best they can.
Or, oh, you know, it's just an upset person lashing out.
Don't take it personally. Minimize, minimize, minimize, minimize all the time.
Every single time we get upset, the whole fucking planet moves in to unplug and short-circuit and dampen down any upset we might have, right?
Right. And that's not a family thing.
It's certainly not fundamental.
It continues all the way through our life.
I mean, you've heard these psychologists that I'm talking to.
What do they say, every single one of them?
If only we had understanding, we would not have anger.
And then at the same time, they will say all emotions are valid.
Yeah. Well, which the fuck is it?
Right? Is anger valid or not?
If anger is valid, then don't drug it with this false sense of empathy and understanding.
And if we knew the stories of our worst enemies, they wouldn't be our enemies.
Fine. Let's say anger is always unhealthy.
Right. But then if anger is always unhealthy, we should react negatively to people who are angry.
Anyway, but they're not philosophers, so they can avoid these basic logical problems quite easily.
But even the professionals at the very forefront of the profession are unable to say that anger against injustice is healthy.
There's this false maturity and Zen and Buddhist and rising above it.
Turn the other cheek and all this sort of shit, right?
Yep. And I really respect what these people are doing as a whole.
I mean, I really do.
But it seems that every single bit of social, familial, religious and political pressure is around short-circuiting any sense of anger or frustration at injustice.
I mean, personal, tangible injustice that we can actually do something about, not...
Imaginary FEMA camps and whatever, the Ron Paul candidacy that failed.
But real stuff that happens in our life.
Everybody's just running around the whole time, unplugging any kind of upset and anger that we might have.
And that's a battle that I think we all have to fight to reclaim that essential part of us that is angry about the injustices that we feel In this life.
Because I swear to God, part of me just believes this is just about neutering the livestock.
Right.
So, and the reason I'm saying that is that it is important to look into your history to see where this sort of stuff came from.
But it's not like it stopped.
I bet. I mean, you must have friends.
You must have told them about what this guy did.
Did you get any sense of clarity?
No. No?
I went back and forth a lot.
I mean, I know they worked really hard, but...
And that's important.
And look, it's not because your friends are bad, and it's not because you're insecure, and it's not...
This is the reality of the world that we live in, that anger...
I mean, it's so weird.
We can be relatively comfortable with war, right?
We can be relatively comfortable with dropping bombs on children, but you can't get angry at a small piece of arseholery in a restaurant.
Right. This is how fucked up our value systems are.
And this is why everybody's anger, we're so angry, and we're always repressed and told to never get angry, and this is why, in many ways, war happens.
Right. It's got to go somewhere, right?
Sure, yeah. Anyway, I'm sorry I said that was going to be a short speech, but I really want to sympathize with this and just to point out that I think it's a pretty universal thing that is going on in terms of if you get angry, everybody moves in to quell that, to tell you that you're wrong, that you're overreacting, that you must have misunderstood something that the other person, right?
Right. Yeah, oh man.
Yeah, after that interaction too with the, you know, canoe in ass thing.
Basically, he asked me, he had the nerve to ask me or say, I noticed that you were a little cold and distant after I told you I had a girlfriend.
And I, oh man.
Oh man, he's just playing to you like an expert angler, right?
But go on, go on.
Oh, man. And I totally, I was like, well, maybe you're right.
And I started actually thinking about it and looking into, okay, what was I feeling?
And I was like, I'm in an impossible situation.
And, you know, because, oh, man.
Oh, this is disgusting.
So then he's going to help you.
He's going to help you.
See, to figure out why you were upset when he treated you badly.
Very sweet of him.
It's nice, isn't it?
I mean, because he's always about to care.
Oh, man.
Oh, man, I want to puke.
Right. And it tells you everything that you need to know about his family and his upbringing and how he's dealt with things, or rather not dealt with things, but rather inflicted them upon others.
And that is...
Not a good thing.
That is not a good thing. Oh man, thank you so much.
Oh, anytime. I know it's tough for me to find a good time for these convos, but I really do like talking to you people.
You're so smart.
It really is.
It's a real pleasure. Well, you definitely helped me get in touch with my anger.
Well, good. And look, I'm not saying you've got to go and nuke this guy, right?
I hope you understand that. I mean, obviously you can do whatever you want.
I mean, you're a smart and wise woman.
But... The important thing is not to focus on him, but to focus on you.
The one thing I thought that was just fantastic, I mean, I thought Dr.
Matei said some fantastic things, but the one thing that just knocked my socks off was when he said, we don't have dysfunctional, we don't have toxic relationships with other people.
We only have a toxic relationship with ourself.
Right. And other, you know, and then he went off onto, you know, and I tried to corner him on, you know, and he did, you know, to his To his credit, he did stand up and say, yeah, you get toxic and unrepentant people out of your life, right?
So he did. He did step up, though he seemed to think that really only meant somebody who was about to knife you.
But nonetheless, he did step up, and I think that's great.
But it's not fundamentally about him.
I know you're going to want to take it all out on him, and I'm not saying do what you want, trust your instincts, but fundamentally, it's about your relationship with Yourself when you felt that.
And you felt it and you owned it as your problem.
Yeah, right. And that is not even remotely philosophical because how do you know it's your problem or your feeling?
Right. That's what Dr.
Matei said. He said it can reactivate.
I think it was, or Dr. Gooding, toxicity will reactivate Those parts of your brain that were harmed in the past by similar things.
It can reactivate. So how do you even know?
I mean, because those parts of our brains that are wounded and hurt, those aren't ours either, right?
I mean, our relationship to our scars is very complex, right?
But if somebody stabs me in the side, that's not part of my body.
That's an injury my body has received.
Right. I don't own that scar.
The person who stabbed me in the side is the one who owns that scar.
It's his scar.
Right. It's not mine.
I own the choices that I make.
I own having my own teeth.
I own my weight.
Because these are things that I can manage and control.
I own whether I go to the gym or not.
I don't own the scar tissue from a stab wound.
That's somebody else's moral ownership.
And so if that reactivation is occurring, first question to say is, I don't know what this is.
I feel this way and I don't know why, right?
That's the RTR thing. I feel this and I don't know why.
It doesn't matter whether you say it to the guy.
In fact, I would not say it to the guy.
Because it's already indicated that he's not trustworthy, right?
Oh, right. Right, right, right.
But I would ask that question to myself.
And if I can't figure it out, and a lot of times I can't, I would ask people who I trust.
Yeah, and I've also, during the last, I don't know, couple weeks or so, I've noticed like almost a numbing or like that my strong I've noticed like almost a numbing or like that my strong feelings were a little bit
In the conversations I've had with my friends in the last couple weeks, it was actually one of them who pointed it out because I was starting to, like when they'd asked me what I felt, I would say what I thought or say something else, something that, and you know, and I know how to do this stuff.
stuff.
I've done it for quite a while now, but that was something that I definitely noticed just from the time that I spent with this guy.
And I don't know, maybe it's not causal, Oh yeah, look, I mean, look, if you go through that shock of humiliation and then you start to blame yourself, you own it, you dissociate, you re-expose yourself to this fellow, for sure that is going to have a significant impact on your relationship with yourself, right?
And it all just snowballs from there, right?
Sure, sure. Yeah, there was a time, there was a point in time during this where I... Where I felt split.
And it was really interesting.
I've never really felt that way before, but in the very beginning of this, I felt pretty good about myself as far as I didn't have anything to hide.
I felt very much like, and I've never really experienced that in a relationship where I was pretty much proud of everything that I was doing and everything that I was saying and thinking and And it was the same, you know?
And then, at some point, I felt this, like, kind of split, where I, like, kind of a...
I don't know how to explain it.
Like a feeling of not being whole.
Right. Whereas I felt whole before.
Right, right. And I think that makes sense.
I mean, Give them what happened and your response to it.
I think that makes sense.
Great.
Oh, wow.
Fantastic.
Oh, I so needed this.
Good, good. Well, listen, it sounds like you mean you want to talk with yourself and all that, so I don't think that's much more than...
That I wanted to add, I mean, was the conversation, I mean, it sounds like it was great and useful and helpful.
Was there anything that I could have done better or differently in terms of what we talked about?
No, I think it was just great.
I can't think of anything that I would change about it.
Oh, fantastic. Oh, anytime, anytime.
And do keep me or us posted about what happens.
I'm certainly... I'd love to be a fly on the wall in your next conversation, but maybe too much to ask you to get a recorder.
But I certainly do keep us posted about what happens.
Okay, sounds great. Okay, all the best.
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