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Feb. 17, 2010 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
56:56
1586 The Business of Integrity - A Listener Conversation

Philosophy takes on the workplace.

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Hey, how's it going? Good, good.
How are you? I'm just fine.
What's up?
Okay, so I've been actually...
I don't know.
I guess it's a little bit embarrassing to say, but I've been snowed under a couple of times recently by the same person, and I've been trying to figure out why that is and figure out what else that means, and I haven't really come to Any helpful conclusions?
So I was hoping that you could...
I'll tell you about the situation and then, I don't know, maybe you could ask some questions to help kind of draw it out into the light, if that makes sense?
Sure. Okay.
So the situation starts, I guess...
I'll tell you a little bit about this woman.
So she was actually one of the first clients that we had.
Way back in June when I hadn't even quit the company at the hedge fund.
So we've been working together for, you know, since June.
We've been doing her server stuff.
Her site is growing extremely rapidly.
So, you know, she needed to upgrade her hosting, etc., etc.
So in December, she sent out An announcement about a program that she's doing.
And it's basically a sort of, I don't know, group therapy for entrepreneurs, if I can.
It's not exactly like that, but you kind of get what I mean.
So it's, you know, her program, it's a message board, so you get on and there are weekly phone calls and it's basically designed to, you know, help you get over your stuff and also, you know, Improve your business along with it.
So there's little modules like, you know, improve your advertising campaign.
We're going to do X this week.
And, you know, the person is, she's very nice.
She is extremely successful.
She makes, let's see, about maybe 200k a year in profit from her business.
You know, just discounting the virtual assistant that she has to hire to help her.
Figure stuff out.
So it's basically, I trust her as a source of how to make money serving the markets that we're both serving because hers and mine overlap quite a bit.
So there's an application process for this thing.
And I applied for it thinking, okay, well, I'm not going to get into it because the people that she surrounds herself with are kind of They're woo-woo, you know?
They're kind of...
I won't say they're kind of.
They are various species of supernaturalists and relativists and things like that.
So, to be honest, while I'm perfectly qualified to, you know, work on her server, right?
You don't want a relativist working on your server.
I'm not really one of her, she calls them, right people.
If I was being honest about it.
She said that. Thinking, okay, well, the worst that will happen is so I don't get in.
And then she said, okay, well, you know, just to compensate you for your time and for, you know, paying a little application fee, I'll give you one of my things.
So, worst comes to worst.
I have a nice phone call with her, and I get one of her info products that I was going to buy anyway.
So it's really a no-lose situation.
In the application, there was a clause saying, but by the way, if you do get in, if I do choose you for this thing, then the, you know, tuition is non-negotiable, etc., etc.
That's fine with me, because, you know, I had the money, and I was actually relatively excited about the thing that she was offering.
And I got in. And then badness started to ensue.
So there's this thing going on with my landlord where when we moved in, we all sent in deposit checks.
You know, the first month and deposit.
And while he cashed the check...
Or while the money, it was like a certified bank check.
So the money was taken out of my account.
I can't tell whether he actually cashed the check or not, but he says that he didn't get it.
So I've been going back and forth because I didn't get it from my bank.
I've been going back and forth trying to get the canceled check.
But basically, he had his lawyer contact my roommate and basically say, you know, if you don't pay me $1,200 for the next few days, I'm evicting you.
So that completely took away the money that I was going to use to pay this woman the first payment on this thing.
And I'm really not willing to deplete my savings any further.
I contacted this woman.
Sorry, I missed why you had to pay the $1,200 to the landlord.
Because he said that he was going to evict us if I didn't.
No, I got that, but sorry, that was an unexpected expense or I just missed that?
No, it was totally unexpected.
Okay, got it. So I contacted this woman saying, look, I know that you said that this is non-refundable, so I'm happy to work with you on paying whatever you need to cover your Administrative costs and to find somebody else because the program had barely started.
It had started like three days and I hadn't even logged in yet.
So it's like this program sold out in three hours.
You have, you know, I'm sure that you have a waiting list.
I'll be willing to, you know, pay your administrative expensive but, you know, I really can't.
I can't go through this right now.
You know, she called me up.
She called me up Tuesday afternoon.
And she's been sort of resolutely not getting or pretending not to get what I've been saying.
So she called me up on Tuesday and she said, well...
You know, you're an extremely astute businesswoman and I'm sure you'll make the money and I'm going to give you until March and it's going to be, you know, it's all going to be okay.
And oh, by the way, a retreat is covered in the tuition.
So even though you can't pay me right now, spend the 500 bucks to come out to California this weekend and come visit me at this resort.
You know, this oceanfront resort.
And so, you know, we left it.
I honestly...
I wasn't sure what to say because in both this phone call and the phone call that we had to...
You know, she called me about the application.
It was like...
It's really hard to describe.
So she'll talk...
And then there will be a long pause.
And I will feel really, really, like, incredible cresting levels of anxiety.
And the thought is, I have to say whatever I can.
Like, I'll do whatever you want.
I'll say whatever you want me to say.
Just don't make me talk to you anymore.
So that, you know, whenever she calls me up, it's like...
I'm sure that it's totally not about this woman in particular.
But, you know, when she called me on Tuesday, it's like, I'll look into plane tickets.
I didn't actually say I would come, but I said, like, I'll look into it.
And she says, oh, okay, so I'll see you on Saturday.
And part of me wanted to say, That's not what I said, and part of me...
Right, because you're trying to negotiate a way to pay less, and she's assuming that everything's going forward, right?
Right, exactly.
It's like, you know, you're resolutely not hearing what I'm saying, and yet, it's like...
It's like talking to a rubber wall, right?
Like, my words are bouncing back at me, and I feel really uncomfortable whenever I talk to her.
So... You know, I've been freaking out for the last few days, right?
Because I know that she expects me to pay her this money and she expects to see me in like a day and a half time.
Like she expects that I'm going to buy a plane ticket and fly out to California when my problem is that I can't pay her for the thing in general.
Right. It's like...
This is obviously, like, I'm sure it's an interaction of her stuff and my stuff, but I'm really wondering why I am so incredibly freaked out about just being assertive with this woman and saying, look, I'm sorry, let me reiterate my offer to pay your administrative expenses, but this is not for me.
And... I'm sure that I'm not one of your right people.
So this year-long program is not where I want to go or be in relation to you.
Right. And so your question is why that may be occurring for you.
Yeah. Like I said, she's really done nothing to inspire these Epic levels of dread.
Like, she's not an ogre, but I'm wondering why I'm feeling that.
Right. Right.
And how diplomatic do you want me to be?
Because, you know, I could be any level of diplomatic that you'd like.
No, screw diplomacy.
I mean, the...
The diplomacy urge is what I've been feeling around her, so I'd really like the antidote if possible.
Alright. And this is a conversation that I have with myself probably three times a week, so I hope you don't think it's coming to you many places.
Sure. But the reason that you feel anxiety is because apparently you don't really believe in philosophy.
Go on. Do I need to?
You probably don't, but please.
Is she a mystic? Yes.
Is she being irrational and manipulative?
Yes. But does philosophy predict about mystics?
This is exactly what I should expect her to be, yes.
I would be shocked if she wasn't that way.
I wouldn't even know what planet I was on if she wasn't that way.
Right. I mean, it's...
What I was thinking to myself earlier is it's like, so I've gotten myself into this situation and so I can't now say that I wish everyone would just leave me alone when I've kind of invited them to the party.
So yeah. Right, so when you were looking at getting involved with this woman professionally or at least from a customer and Yes.
To be fair though, I mean, well, not to be fair, but it's not actually her that I'm dealing with.
Like, if I had to deal with her on a daily basis, I couldn't do it.
I'm actually dealing with her Boyfriend, who, while he's somewhat of a passive-aggressive asshole, is a little bit more on planet Earth than this woman.
But, yeah, I see what you're saying.
That's a silly refinement.
No, and I understand, like, again, I have to remind myself of this all the time, that the stuff we're studying, it actually means something, you know?
It's not just for talking, it's for making real-life decisions, right?
Right. Because somebody's only...
I mean, mysticism is manipulation and exploitation, particularly...
It's just a scam.
It's a con game, right? Maybe mystics get richer than philosophers can dream of because they sell all kinds of manipulative, exploitive, child abuse, pillaging bullshit to people, right?
Yeah, that's actually something that I wanted to bring up a little bit.
You ever want to see somebody who's...
I mean, Wall Street bankers have got nothing on your average Buddhist as far as hard-nosed, greedy-ass, money-grubbing guys.
Mystics are just crazy as far as that stuff goes.
They are just hard-nosed, money-grubbing people, at least in my experience.
So the fact that she's just hanging on to your dollars with two claws and a foot It doesn't surprise me.
But again, that's just from the outside.
But philosophy, I think, would have predicted this nicely had you sort of taken the principles, if that makes any sense.
Oh, no, I mean, it totally did.
Because, you know, of course, the end is sort of predicted in the beginning, always.
So when I was filling out the application for this thing, it's like, Do I really want to send this in?
I don't think that I really want to send this in.
And then, you know, there was part of me that it's like, just click the fucking button.
But, you know, 99% of my guys were saying, you know, it's like that slow motion.
Don't do it!
Right. Yeah, so that's the experience that I would sort of put forward that You know, don't get into business relationships with mystics there.
You know, the pathology of mysticism goes right down to the spinal cord.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
So now it's like, oh, you know, I'm just...
I'm just dreading emailing this woman's assistant because, you know, she refuses to get on email because she calls herself a VSP, a very sensitive person.
So apparently, you know, if anyone sends her an email that, you know, is not 100% supportive, she, you know, has the vapors.
So she has an assistant to handle all her email for her.
So I'm... Yeah, so I'm dreading emailing this woman's assistant and saying...
By the way, I know that I kind of gave an impression, but yeah, I'm not going to turn up on Saturday.
Sorry. Now, you have, I got to tell you, this is probably going to raise people's ire.
Even the way that you're talking about it with me is like, yeah, you probably got the wrong impression, but hey, I'm like, like it's their fault, right?
But they told you right up front that they were mystics, right?
Yeah, that's true.
And you ignored, and look, again, I do too, right?
So, you know, all due consideration.
I won't repeat that. But you ignored what philosophy was screaming blue in the face for, to tell you, right?
Yes, I did. It's not her fault.
So if you come across like, you know, you people are crazy, when they told you right up front, hey, we're fucking crazy.
We're insane. We're manipulative.
We're money-grubbing. We're greedy.
We're going to be irrational. We're going to be all of these kinds of things.
And you're like, hey, I'm in, right?
And then you're like, Well, wait a second, these people are crazy.
I mean, I know they told me they were crazy because they said they were mystics, but it turns out this is the one thing the mystics don't lie about, is saying that they're crazy, right?
Yeah, it's like, you know, if I ignored the flashing neon sign, it's not that they took the wrong impression, it's just that, yeah, that's me, that's not them.
Yeah, I mean, that would be my suggestion, because otherwise you're a victim, right?
And the only way that I would say, I mean, there are lessons in life that can be very expensive, and this may be a very expensive lesson.
And the lesson that I always need to relearn is, how much does it cost me to ignore my values, right?
Ka-ching, right? It's like, I'm going to lose, you know, two feet and a kidney in this one, and an eyeball in the next one.
Like, how much does it actually cost me to ignore values?
My values and my principles.
And that's just something that...
It's a painful lesson to learn, but I think it's something that's very important to learn.
Totally. And...
I mean, obviously, I'm not glad that I'm losing a lot of money, but it's like...
I think every few weeks I need some sort of reminder that it's like, no, really, like, hello.
So... I could just kick myself.
Kicking yourself is just another way of losing out.
We all have the susceptibility, not because we're dumb, not because we don't really believe in philosophy, but just because the whole world trains us to not believe in values.
Because if we believe in values, if we live according to values, like rational principles, if we UPB ourselves up the yin-yang, then we're tougher to exploit.
The world is largely about exploitation.
And so people don't want us to have those values, so we're trained not to.
Like it's not a kick yourself thing, it's just, you know, I never spoke Chinese and now I have to speak Chinese.
It's a tough language to learn and I keep slipping back into English without even noticing it.
So it's not dumbness, it's not a lack of commitment to principles.
We're just not trained to live by principles.
In fact, we're trained to be quite the opposite.
The moment we bring up principles, you know, everybody has the vapors, right?
Yeah, and I mean, to be honest, it was, you know, myself that was telling me, don't do it!
So, you know, I don't want to kick myself.
Well, and let me ask you, did you talk to anyone in the know of philosophy?
Beforehand? No, and that's obviously a huge warning sign as well, right?
Because if I had felt kind of able to talk about it, Well, yeah.
I mean, if you're involved in a rational philosophy community and you don't raise a significant financial investment that you're making with a bunch of mystics, that's a clue right there.
Yeah. And to be honest, I mean, I don't want to draw away from this conversation.
I mean, I don't want to misdirect, but that's actually...
It goes into something that I've been thinking about for the past, well, off and on since I started doing this full time.
So, I haven't been doing as much advertisement and, you know, stuff as I should do.
And I haven't felt...
Especially the past few days after this stuff has broken, I haven't felt like, you know, posting anything on my blog or interacting with these folks in any way.
And I was, you know, talking with the plenary council last night and, you know, I said, do you mind if I just read you?
Because it'll be much easier.
Yeah, please. Okay, so...
All right.
Okay, so I said, you know, I didn't listen to you guys when you said, don't do this, but why?
And, you know, one of them said, well, because you don't actually know why you're on this path.
You don't know what you want to achieve.
Like, what are your life goals here?
To be happy by passing the time doing what?
Oh, this is so embarrassing.
I replied with feats of bravery and virtue, which are...
Reconnecting people with themselves, like helping them.
Okay, are you doing much of that?
No. Doing much advertising of that?
No. Why?
Well, I resent that it's something which has to be advertised.
I've been there, yeah.
Be advertised, you must be bad!
Right, it's the philosophical conversation of the ages.
Why would I muddy myself with petty commerce?
Yeah, go on. Right, and it's like You know, whenever I, even if it's just tech consulting, like I get on the phone with these people, and then, you know, an hour later, to a man, they tweet, oh my god, I just had this fantastic blog post idea, or, oh my god, I just came up with this idea for this product, or, oh my god, you know, one of them said, I'm rolling in hot sauce over here, thank you so much.
And it's like, I know that When I get on the phone with these people, I'm providing enormous value.
I am actually helping them, but it's so short-term.
I can sort of infuse them with a little bit of my, I don't know, enthusiasm or whatever.
But it's like a kind of Blood transfusion when, you know, you haven't actually sewn up the wound that they're rapidly bleeding out of.
So that, you know, when I get in the business of offering services to these people...
Because I started up the IT side for totally the wrong reasons.
But I'm mostly talking about the other site.
The sort of, you know, the writing thing, which is really...
More where my heart is.
But it's like, okay, so I can talk to these people, and then they'll start writing.
Like, they'll have fantastic ideas, and they'll be, you know, really jazzed to begin on their stuff again, no matter how depressed they were about it before.
But it doesn't last.
It doesn't stick, because the nature of their beliefs, or rather, like, they're Non-beliefs, I guess.
Like, I can't actually discuss philosophy, so I can't offer a long-term solution, and that's profoundly depressing.
So, to be honest, I'm serving the wrong people.
Right. I mean, I don't know how to get out of that.
Well, I do know how to get out of that, but do you see what I mean?
I do. I'm not sure what your question is, but I certainly do see what you mean.
Or rather, I should say, I'm not sure what your question is that you don't already know the answer to.
Yeah, it's kind of like...
I was thinking to myself earlier, wow, I really am ruined for every profession, business, everything.
Thanks, philosophy.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Hey, thanks. I appreciate all the illumination.
Could you turn it down a little bit?
Got to live in the world a little bit here.
Yeah, really, like, I do actually have to, you know, buy food and...
Right, please don't make me live in the woods philosophy, please.
I don't like the woods. I get itchy and there are bugs.
It's like, I don't want to move to Montana and live off the land.
Help! No, I hear you.
I hear you. But to me, and there's no easy answer, right, Charlotte?
But to me, the answer is, I can do anything I want as long as I'm conscious, right?
I can do anything that I want, as long as I'm conscious of it.
That really is the key. I trust that if I'm conscious of it, and I'm talking it over with people I care about, and I'm getting good advice, and the ecosystem is all down with it, if that's all going on, I'm good to go.
If that's not the case, then there's a problem.
When we have to live In the world, as philosophers, we have this problem.
And we say, well, there are all these people in the world who aren't philosophers.
In fact, the vast majority of people in the world are anti-philosophical.
So what am I going to do? How am I going to live?
And blah, blah, blah. And we get into these issues, right?
But if you'd been honest, and I'm not saying you're dishonest with yourself, because it was just unconscious, right?
But if you'd been rigorously honest with yourself, and you said, well, you know, I'm spending a lot of money.
These people have got some warning signs.
They're mystics. If you started off this site, the writing site, knowing that the vast majority of people who were going to get involved in your writing site would be sort of post-modernist, relativistic, amoral advantage monkeys, then you would not be surprised after the fact, if that makes sense. Yeah.
And, I mean, to be fair, which, I mean, that phrase usually prefaces some sort of Horrible little, I don't know, get-out-of-jail-free card.
Yeah, like somebody says, fair enough, you know it's just not fair at all.
But anyway, go on. Right.
So to use my get-out-of-jail-free card, let's be honest about that, I did see that, you know, or I did think of when starting off fiction that, hey, you know, most people are going to, you know, completely not get most of the stuff that I'm talking about.
And I'm probably not going to be able to build this.
Sorry, not get?
What do you mean?
So I've been talking about like the post that I tried and seriously failed last night to write because, you know, giving advice to people on stuff that you're not doing is not the best way to begin your evening.
To go back a little bit, Seth Godin, who's like, you know, the god in this social circle that I'm in, has just written a new book called Linchpin.
And he basically, he is so close to the mecosystem concept, but yet so incredibly far away.
So, you know, he has a whole chapter on kind of talking to your demon, right?
A demon in this sort of Philip Pullman kind of, you know, happy little creature that bounces around beside you.
Yeah, like the D-A-E-man, not the D-E-man, right?
Yes. So, you know, he has a whole chapter on, you know, talking to your demon and getting these sort of, you know, interacting with him and, you know, getting advice from him.
And it's sort of like... You know, muse, whatever you want to call it.
So that's what I was going to write a post on.
And it's like, you know, these people or the people who read the site are going to take it only as far down as it helps them in their writing, or maybe not even that far down.
But if they took it all the way down, oh my god, what a howling void that would open up in them.
So that's kind of what I mean when I say, you know, they aren't going to get or they are going to block themselves from the sort of ultimate way that the concepts I'm talking about kind of pan out.
If that makes any sense at all.
It totally does to me.
I think the answer as to why this guy is not going full tilt Boogie Mika system was in Was embedded in what you said when introducing him?
Oh, the fact that, you know, he's the kind of god of this social circle?
Right. Now, I hope to heaven that you have never referred to me as the god of free domain radio or the god of philosophy or anything like that?
No. Right.
Why not? Why not?
Sorry. Why not?
Why the hell not?
Because, God, you actively try to, you know, stick lots of pins to pop that image whenever it might come up.
Like, you don't set yourself up as a kind of, I don't know, messianic leader, whereas Seth kind of does.
Right. Right. He's a god in this irrational community, right?
And what does that tell you about his psychological state?
He's of the howling void makeup, I believe.
Okay, so if he's of the howling void makeup, how's Miko's system going to show up for him?
First of all, he already knows all about it.
We all do, because we all argue with ourselves all the time.
So that's not a big shock.
Sure. Well, I would think that it would probably show up in the sort of, I don't know, self-attacky, inner critic type of guy.
Well, if he's portraying himself in some way, that he's appearing as some kind of god to other people, then he's exploiting, right?
Yes. He's exploiting other people's insecurities to boost his own self-esteem, right?
Yeah. I mean, this isn't actually amusing, but the new book is called Lynchpin, so it's basically a sort of blueprint for making yourself indispensable wherever you may go.
Right, right.
Right, and so anyway, I think that there's enough there.
That there would be good reason to be cautious of, if not downright.
Like, there's enough there, I would say, that you would know that he's not going to get it, right?
But you also know that, like, if he's a real manipulator, and I don't know the guy, right?
But it's just, would be my guess, right?
But if he's a real manipulator, then what he's going to do is he's going to appear to get it, but he's not going to get it, right?
He's going to play around with it, because he's not going to want to admit that he doesn't get it.
Because it's close to his own philosophy, but again, it's infinitely far from the real world applications of his philosophical principles.
Somebody who's got counterfeit currency is not going to openly say, you can't check it with your counterfeit currency detection machine.
You know, oh, you know, those things are kind of unreliable.
I've had some problems with these bills before, though I know that they're legit because a friend of mine works at the Mint and he's going to give you all this kind of nonsense.
So he's going to be like, well, he's kind of close to letting you check it, but kind of not, if that makes any sense.
Right. And then he's kind of, you know, making out, you know, because if when the bills do come back, it's like, I mean, I told you, it's totally not my fault.
Yeah, I told you these machines have a problem with this, and, you know, maybe there was some switch on the way back, or have you checked your employees to see whether they've had any issues with palming bills and replacing them with counterfeit bills and blah blah.
Like, he'll give you a whole big baffle-gabby kind of stories, so he'll be really close, but infinitely far, right?
Right. Which, to kind of wrap it up with this woman, like, she talks about very similar concepts on her blog.
Like, she talks about talking with her sort of, I don't know, she doesn't call them demons, but her inner, she calls them stucknesses.
I'm sorry, what? Stucknesses?
Stucknesses. Yeah.
Oh, that's great.
Yeah, so the stuff that makes her stuck.
That makes my terms look technical anyway.
Sorry, go on. Oh my gosh.
You know, a little bit of bran or maybe some melon or, you know, some dried apricots can probably help you with that stuck-fulliness.
There we go. Yeah, she calls what she does bigification.
And that bigification? Yeah, bigification.
I'm going to bigify you, you know.
I'm going to make you into sort of...
I'm going to bigify you.
It sounds like the opening of a porn movie or something.
Yeah, it's like...
Wait, is there a vacuum seal involved in this?
Do I need a fluffer?
All right. Oh, my God.
So what are you doing with these people, Charlotte?
Oh, man. So what I've been telling myself for six months is, I mean...
A lot of these people, they are...
Genuinely nice? Like, I met up with...
I know, that sounds so freaking enthusiastic.
Genuinely nice, okay. And what does that mean?
Does that mean, you know, lots of people are.
You stop and ask them for directions, and they'll give you directions, right?
You fall down on the sidewalk, they'll probably help you back up.
You're being savaged by a saber-toothed tiger, they'll probably call 911.
I mean, that certainly is true, but that's not what philosophy is about, right?
Philosophy is about looking a little bit deeper than that, right?
Right. Well, the thing that I was thinking about today, it's It's kind of like that call that we had about why people sort of, like, they say, yeah, I'll do this stuff for FDR, and then they kind of drop off, like, the whole despair thing.
So the only thing I could think of was, it's like these are really, there are so few.
Sorry, like people who think rationally are so few?
Yeah. Well, yeah.
How do you not know that?
I mean, I know. How can you claim to not know this?
I know this intellectually, and it's like, but...
But please don't let it be really true.
I mean, okay, there's every single piece of evidence from you and thousands of other listeners and hundreds of other callers and thousands of people on the board, and we're all saying, God Almighty, we're like stars in the night sky, we're that distant from each other, right?
And you're like, okay, I know it's true.
And I've been in part of this philosophy for years now.
And I've tried talking about it with family and with friends, with relatives, with acquaintances, with people on the bus, with hand puppets.
And even my hand puppets reject philosophy.
And so you know this, right?
I totally know it.
And it's like, a part of me, there's such a lot of despair.
It's like, so then...
I mean, not that you guys are bad or that...
I mean, it's... What?
I'm stuck with you losers for the rest of time?
Oh my god! It's like, wait!
You weren't aware of fucking FPR losers till the end of time.
What a nightmare! It's like, fuck, I'm stuck in an AV club until Kingdom Come.
Oh, I wish we were as cool as the AV club.
That, to me, would be a massive step forward.
But anyway... Oh my god, but it's like...
You know, I think...
And it's like, really...
No, we're sort of like the group that weren't cool enough to get into the D&D club.
That's awesome. So, you know, it's a lot of despair, but I think it's kind of, I mean, it's black and white thinking, right?
So it's like...
Why do you even think it's your despair?
Oh, that's true.
That's the first question.
First question. Well, first question is, what am I feeling?
Second question is, is it my feeling?
Right? Because if you jump straight to why am I feeling it, you're assuming it's your feeling, right?
When you come out of the gate into the world as a philosopher, you come in as, you know, the nine-foot-tall black knight riding a flaming charger, you know, Arabic charger, right?
So the peasants all cower back, and the first thing they want to do is to make the knight feel afraid, right?
Right. The people all feel small when philosophers come out of the gate.
And so the first thing they want to do is make philosophers feel small, right?
Yeah, and that's...
One more, and then I'll let you go.
Philosophers reveal the isolation in others.
And so the first thing that people want to do is make the philosopher feel lonely.
Yeah. And, I mean, they've really succeeded.
Because, you know, when I try to turn outwards, and it's like, you know...
I really can help these people.
Sorry, did you say you really can help these people?
Well, I'm sure there are people out there that I can help.
It's not these people.
Like, I'm sure that...
Wait, wait, wait. Okay, this is back up for a second, right?
Because I tell you what, you look like a guy coming into the ER, holding...
I look like a woman coming into the ER, she's holding her own leg in her arms, femoral blood pouring all over the floor, and she's saying, who can I help stitch up?
You got involved financially with a bunch of manipulative mystics.
You're calling a guy who appears to be faith-based, mystic and manipulative, the god in this community that you've gotten involved in as well at some level, and now you're saying, but there's people out there I can help.
First, you have to get the principles in your own life.
And you have to stop looking through the eyes of the shallow.
You are a deep and brilliant woman.
And you have amazing, amazing gifts.
I've always felt that, even when we've pissed each other off.
I've absolutely known that. So you have all of these amazing gifts.
And the depth and size and power of who you are, particularly with your artistic and historical knowledge combined with philosophical knowledge, makes you huge, right?
Enormous. Thunder goddess of the steps, right?
And when you step delicately among the ant people, they will immediately want you to feel small, because that's what you're doing to them, right?
It's the bounce back.
It's like, is this even my feeling?
Is this even my feeling?
Right. And if you go into the world with a desire to help people, I don't think that brings you in with much power.
Now, if you go into the world and say, I want to inspire people, that is a very, very different mindset.
In fact, I would say that's the opposite mindset.
Fuck helping people. You can't help people.
You can't inspire people.
I think. But you can't help them.
Because if you say, I'm in this world to help people, you're just going to end up tending the sickly and they'll drag you down.
Right. That makes sense.
And if you are about inspiring people, then you will genuinely, I think, and truly get the degree to which you need to be powerful yourself, right?
Yeah. Try and look at people through the eyes of the power of principles.
And be discriminating.
And your help is not a buffet open to all.
I would suggest to be extremely, extremely discriminating with who you help.
help I know I am I get lots of requests for help and I say no thank you right like it people have to earn it a little bit right
Yeah, I was just thinking, so if I operated on that principle, is there anyone amongst the people that I've met in the past, I guess it's been a year since I started interacting with these people, is there anyone among them that would kind of...
Not, kind of, that would pass that bar.
And to be honest, no.
No, see, this is the thing.
When you're not conscious of your values and of your choices and of your power...
The tragedy is that there may be people who can be inspired but aren't being inspired.
Because what you'll do is you'll look back and you'll say, well, this last year when I was unconscious of all of this stuff and I wasn't present and I wasn't really living my values in these relationships, was there anyone who seemed inspired by philosophy?
It's like, well, of course there wasn't!
Because you weren't, right?
You're among that number.
And again, I'm not being at all diplomatic, but I'm sure you know what I'm saying and where I'm coming from.
Because again, I have these conversations with myself all the time, because it's not like I'm 150% in all my values, right?
But for sure, you can't work empirically from a time when you were not living your values and say, well, there was no one around me who was living values, right?
Right, right. Because I mean, like, if I don't kind of live the, or if I don't live the courage of my convictions, then honestly, like, Then no one's going to be inspired by it and sort of come, oh, wow, say, wow.
I haven't seen that before, right?
And this is just an example of looking at the principles and saying, do I want to get involved, right?
Right. So then, of course, that makes me think, like, okay, so what emotions or what stuff would I have had to face if I had, like, really admitted what I knew about these people from...
No, it's not what you know about the people, Charlotte.
It's yourself. It's yourself.
Forget them. Forget them.
Forget them. They're not important.
It's what you didn't know about your own principles that matters, not what you do know about them.
Because everything that's a problem with them, you knew from the very beginning, right?
Forget them. The relationship is with you and your principles.
Because if you focus on them, it's just another way of not looking at yourself, which means surrendering your power.
Because when we look at ourself, then we have power, right?
Right. Right.
Sorry. I hope that you sort of understand.
I'm coming at this with great affection, but again, I'm passionate about this because I also know that you are very fierce to live your values, right?
And I just don't want you diminished by focusing on these Dipshit exploited mystics, right?
Rather than focusing on yourself, which is where the real power is.
Yeah, I mean, thank you for the passion that you're bringing to it, because, I mean, honestly, like I said in the beginning, if you pulled your punches, I wouldn't get it, even to the small extent that I'm getting it right now, and I'm sure it'll hit me later.
Yeah. Right, and you understand, this is like 80 to 85%.
I'm not talking zero to pass, right?
I mean, you've already been living a huge number of the values that you believe in, so I'm just pointing out this one, which is a real challenge.
We don't know what the world is like if we don't consistently live our values.
And so to look back and say, well, I can't live my values because the world is the way it is, is non-empirical, right?
It's like saying, well, there's no way that we can sail across the ocean because nobody's ever sailed across the ocean before.
Well, that is a tautology, right?
And it's false, right?
It's mistaking the past for the future, right?
So if you say, well, if you didn't see who these mystics are and how anti-philosophical they were going to be, and then you go into that environment, get yourself embedded in that environment, and you say, well, I have to make decisions because the world is corrupt.
It's like, no, no, no. You wandered into...
With all foreknowledge and without getting help from people who could have told you, even if you didn't want to hear it, who could have told you that this is going to be a place which is going to be specifically anti-philosophical.
And then you say, well, but I have to compromise because there are all these people around me who are anti-philosophical.
It's like, but you went into that, right?
When you walk into the lion's den, you can't complain that there are lots of lions around me.
You can, right?
But you can't then also say, well, I have to arrange my life, like there's lots of lions around us, but you walked into the lion's den, right?
With a big sign outside, philosophy painted in neon signs, saying, lion's den, right?
Do not enter. It's like, no, no, I'm in, right?
Well, now I have to do this and I have to do that because the world is full of lions.
It's like, no, no, no, you're surrounded by lions, but that's part of a choice that you made, or rather a choice that you avoided, if that makes sense.
And the reason you avoided the choice is that You feel like if you compromise your values, you can find a way to live in society.
But I would suggest that if you don't compromise your values, society will find a way to live with you.
Right. And you will gather together or inspire people.
And you will, of course, trigger hostility and all the other things, which is part of what we want to avoid.
I'm not saying you have to do this now.
I'm not saying you have to ever do it.
What I'm saying is that It's a possibility.
Right. I mean, you know, if I say that I'm trying to find a way to live in society, well, what I've been, you know, doing around these people is not living.
I mean, it's been a sort of mechanistic process of calculation.
Like, you know, how is this going to make them feel?
Well, fuck, just...
Be yourself. Be honest.
Be like Napoleon.
He doesn't sit there and say, how do I find a way to live in the Europe that is?
He's like, how can I remake Europe?
To say, how do I, as a philosopher, live in the society that is, is to forget that no philosopher leaves society the same as he or she found it.
The whole purpose of philosophy It's to fuck up society, because society is culture-bound and lazy and superstitious and collectivist and unthinking.
So the whole point of philosophy is to leave society completely different than it found it.
So to say, well, how does a philosopher live in society?
Well, the whole point is to not live in society.
It's to change society.
And we do that through inspiration.
I think. I mean, maybe there's some other way of doing it that I don't know about, but that's the only way that I found that works.
Oh dear. Oh dear.
Right, right. And this is, you understand, this is just a part, just stay conscious of the choice.
That's all I'm saying, right?
You don't have to go out and do this tomorrow, right?
Because I'm aware, and I think you're right, you know, like a I started it later in life than a lot of people who were younger, so I'm perfectly sensitive and aware to that, that issue that you brought up, which you're completely right about.
But don't fall into the despair of thinking that you are a round peg in society's square hole.
And therefore, you know, doomed to live three inches above flat land for the rest of your life, right?
Yeah. Thank you.
When I was in Mexico, Isabella got up at like 4 o'clock in the morning on the first day we were there.
It's like, oh, great vacation, right?
And she was awake, awake, right?
The time changed and all she was excited.
And I took her down.
They were just starting to set up for the breakfast buffet that opened, I think, at 7 or whatever.
There was some coffee there and they let us wander around and everybody, of course, was charmed by her.
And anyway, at some point I had to come back up to use the washroom.
Christina was sleeping.
And I came back up and they didn't light any of the hallways at that hour.
So it literally was pitch black.
Pitch black. And I really had to go to the washroom.
I don't know if you've ever had a lot of tropical fruit.
Anyway, we don't have to get into all of that.
But it... It opens the floodgates.
I really had to get to the washroom.
And I said, Isabella with me.
And so I didn't want to go too fast.
I didn't want to bump into anything or whatever.
And that motion of like, I literally found myself crouching down as I was trying to go from the elevator to like 200 yards to get to a hotel room through these narrow corridors that were completely pitch black.
And that sort of just reminded me of what it's like in philosophy, right?
I mean, you're tentative, you're frightened.
We don't know where the next blow is coming from.
Normally, I just sort of grab a wall and keep going, but one side was just a railing that went out, like it was open.
And the other side, it kept opening into these sort of halls, so I couldn't do any of that sort of stuff.
And I was literally, at some point, I realized I was sort of hunched over so far that I wouldn't have cleared a five foot high ceiling, which is crazy, right?
Of course, they have much bigger ceilings than that.
But I really got that sense of being hunched over and tentative and feeling like every step I'm going to hit a wall with my baby in my arms, right?
And eventually I just recognized, look, I have to stand up straight.
I have to stand up straight. There's no way that they have low-hanging things that are going to hit me on the head, right?
I have to stand up straight. I have to take a deep breath.
I have to recognize that this is designed for human beings to walk down.
And I just have to walk.
I'm not going to stride.
I'm not going to be careless. I'm not going to, you know, whatever.
But I'm just going to walk with my, you know, hands.
I sort of twisted Isabella so she was on my hip.
So I could put my hands out to either side.
I'm going to, you know, reach ahead with my feet and I'm just going to walk confidently.
And I ended up being able to get to the hotel room and all of that.
And that's an extended metaphor, of course.
But that's the kind of thing.
We're walking hunched over like we can't see.
This is what it's like when you're unconscious, right?
And you're different. You're hunched over.
You're waiting for the blows.
You're waiting to walk into things.
You're waiting for bad things to happen.
But I think you just need to, you know, stand up.
You know, straighten your spine.
Recognize that there are a lot of irrational and anti-rational people in the world.
But there are also people, you know, there are also people who are dying to be inspired.
Dying. To be inspired.
And to recognize that you kind of just have to step over the bodies, right, to get to the healthy people.
Right. Right.
That makes sense.
Oh dear.
And, you know, of course.
It's a sort of lizard brain.
It's like, ew, but...
So what does that mean?
But, I mean, it kind of means what it is, right?
I mean, it doesn't sort of necessitate any action sort of in the business side.
It just necessitates the kind of talking to myself.
No, it's not action. Talking to others, you know, stay talking with people, right?
Get people's feedback.
Stay in the conversation with people.
And listen to their feedback.
Reference your values. What does philosophy say about this?
What do my values say about this?
If I had to lay a million dollars on the result, where would philosophy tell me to put my money?
Right. Well, this has been really, really helpful.
I very much appreciate it.
I hope it goes well with this woman.
Just recognize that you're dealing with a pretty dangerous financial black hole.
Maybe you'll get your money back out, maybe you won't.
It all comes down to, in the end, if you just don't pay her, it all comes down to what she may do out of that.
I think the offer to cover her administrative costs is, I think, a decent and noble thing to do.
I just try and steer clear of people like that in the future.
Yeah, I definitely will.
I mean, the sort of, definitely the dread of emailing her is less.
I'm not actually sure why that is, but I'm sure that will come to me as well.
Well, I would just say that you know what you're dealing with, right?
You know it's not just some weird foo thing, but it's just, it's also not all to do with you.
But this woman is a creepy, exploitive, sounds like kind of mystic person, so...
I think you get that it's not you, and that it was predictable, and that you have some power back in the situation, and you're not dealing with your mom, right?
I mean, you're a free adult, and it's a different situation.
Yeah, I mean, that definitely is it.
I mean, I don't feel two inches tall in relation to this woman's, like, you know, 30-foot stature anymore.
Right, right, yeah. And so I think that's good.
I'm very glad to have been a pal. Excellent.
Well, thank you. Keep me posted.
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