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Jan. 3, 2010 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:49:55

1550 Sunday Show January 3, 2009

Happy new decade! Aversions to exercise - and Mormonism.

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	Well, thank you everybody so much for joining us.
	It is the 3rd of January 2010.
	Does it not feel like we should have jetpacks now?
	But none as yet.
	The only thing we have is the whiplash jetpack of philosophy, which we attempt to hang onto with our teeth and the skin of our nails at times.
	So I hope you had a wonderful, wonderful Christmas slash winter solstice break.
	I hope that Santa...
	It was very good to you. And I hope that you had a very happy new year.
	And welcome to the new decade!
	And I await the endless emails from people who tell me the new decade doesn't start until next year.
	But welcome to the new decade.
	This will be the decade, if not the year, of Freedom Aid Radio.
	I have decided to spend a good portion of this year firing out material.
	And what I mean by that is, you know, we've got these great interviews with these Psychologists and scientists and so on, and there've got to be lots of places on the internet where such expertise would be of value, so I'm going to spend some time in January just sending out or posting these relevant videos and podcasts on...
	So, yeah, I'm going to post some stuff on message boards and so on, because I think it's material that's very, very important for people to get a hold of, and it's all sitting there receding slowly into the mists, if not the whitewater rapids of the podcast stream.
	And I think we've just got too much useful and helpful material for people for it to sit in just this community, so I'm going to be focusing on that.
	If you are of interest and you would like to help out, please feel free to give me a shout.
	We will... Make it somewhat fun.
	We'll sit on a Skype chat and make silly jokes while we post important material on the web.
	So if you'd like to join in with that, please give me a shout.
	I would like to just, as usual, put out a massive thank you and shout out to everybody who is supporting and participating in this conversation.
	Whether you've shared a link, whether you've donated, whether you've posted on the board, I'm not talking about anything to do with that.
	I'm just talking about people who are interested in philosophy and who are taking The amazing, courageous, wonderful, beautiful, terrifying, tragic, and exhilarating steps of bringing rational values into being in your own life.
	Thank you. Thank you so much.
	It has reaffirmed my faith in humanity, which had taken many a blow.
	It has reaffirmed my faith in the power and potential of human thought to see just how many amazing people there are out there willing to grapple with the challenge Of rational virtue.
	I just can't tell you how much your presence and your support means to me and to each other.
	And thank you, thank you, thank you so much for making this show such a success.
	There's an old Sandra Bernhardt movie called Without You I'm Nothing.
	And that certainly is true as far as this show goes.
	Without your listening Without your interest, without your enthusiasm, without your criticism, without your anger, without your frustration, without your excitement, this is nothing.
	This is nothing but bites on a server.
	So, thank you so much for taking the time to investigate, pursue, and bring philosophy to life in your life.
	I know that it's horrible sometimes.
	I know that it's hell sometimes.
	I know that it's hard. And I know that there are some times when we wish we could eject the blue pill from Just about every orifice we possess, but I still think it's worth it.
	And it is worth it for our lives, it is worth it for our children's lives, it is worth it for the world of the future, whose success or failure I think rests upon the efforts of people like us.
	So thank you, thank you, thank you so much for making the show such a success and for giving me the luxury to do what I do.
	And it is a luxury. I try never ever to take it for granted.
	I literally wake up every day And jump out of bed, enthusiastic and excited to see what people have written to me, what people have posted, the praise and criticism and everything in between about the show and about me on the web.
	I am just super thrilled and excited to be able to do what I'm doing.
	And I couldn't do it without you.
	So I don't take it for granted.
	I think every day, I think what an incredible blessing it is to be able to do what I'm doing.
	So thank you, everybody.
	Who's made that possible and who is helping support the driving of this conversation forward.
	So that's it for my New Year's thoughts or my thoughts every day of the week.
	Sorry there was no Sunday show last week.
	We had a few people over, well, more than a few for Christmas and I just needed to take a break from socializing to focus on parenting a little bit more.
	So, thank you for your patience, and I'm sure that people had lots of better things to do, even over the Christmas break, like, you know, hand-carving their way through electronics shopping purchases on Boxing Day.
	So, sorry about that.
	And there's not likely to be a show next week, but I will certainly post if there is, but at the moment, just believe that there isn't.
	But after that, we'll be back on our regular schedule.
	So, that's it for me. I await with eager and bated breath.
	Your questions, comments, issues, problems, feel free to type them into the chat window if you like.
	Or if you can give a pingle to James P in the message board and you don't have Skype, you can call 315-876-9705 and you will be patched through to the FDR mirror station floating slightly above sea level.
	Quick clarification question about something in a recent podcast.
	Yes. It's in reference to the roundtable that you did with Wes Bertrand, Brett Venant and Lauren Canario.
	Yeah. The civil disobedience one.
	And I was just having trouble sorting something that you said in that podcast, I guess similar to a week ago when I came to you about something that I needed clarification on reconciling two different things.
	So I just kind of wanted to reconcile something that you said in this podcast so that I could better understand the arguments.
	Because I was in agreement with you and sort of your side of the debate, and I remain that way.
	But I just wanted to reconcile an example or a point that you made, if you don't mind.
	Please. So I think it was about two-thirds in, and I took some notes.
	About two-thirds in, they were talking about, I think it was Wes said something that when you...
	When you act in civil disobedience, it brings the guns of the state out and then people can see them, if you remember that point.
	Sure. So it removes the velvet glove from the state and it makes it stop being so friendly and nice.
	And you said something along the lines of if there are examples before philosophical knowledge for people, then they're not going to see the principle.
	They're just going to see the example.
	But when you have philosophical knowledge before the examples, then you don't need the examples?
	Yes. And I'm having trouble squaring that, and I'm sure there's just a simple clarification.
	Maybe. Let's not assume.
	But I'm having trouble squaring that with what you've said, especially with regards to the how to achieve freedom stuff, that we get the perceptual before the conceptual.
	So I'm having trouble sorting those two distinctions.
	Could you maybe, I guess, clarify a little bit of how those two can coexist?
	No, that's an excellent, excellent point.
	I'll tell you what I mean, and then you can tell me whether I'm making sense or just slithering away from an open contradiction.
	When I talked about getting the perceptual before the conceptual, I'm talking about brain development among infants.
	I'm not talking about adults.
	So, for instance, you know that there's something called cancer, right?
	You understand that as a concept, but you've never had cancer, right?
	Oh, right, right. So when we get the perceptual before we get the conceptual, because to me, to have concepts not rooted on our perceptions, or at least the principles derived from our perceptions, then those concepts would make no sense.
	It would be like trying to build a castle on a cloud.
	It would make no sense. And so we do get the perceptual before we get the conceptual.
	And the reason why I think that's important is that we need to ground our concept formation On what we perceive through the senses, right?
	Which is why the three laws of logic correspond to the laws of physics, right?
	And why we can have concepts because atoms have commonalities and therefore things in the world have commonalities.
	So I think philosophically we need to ground concept formation on sense perception.
	Because otherwise we can have valid concepts that completely contradict or are irrelevant to sense perception.
	Such as God's existing in another universe or some sort of social contract or all these concepts that contradict sense perception.
	So I think we need to say, look, the way that we have to validly develop concepts to be philosophical is we need to base them upon sense perception.
	And the rules derived from sense perception.
	Like an iPod can't be in two places at once and therefore the law of non-contradiction and object constancy and so on.
	And so we can then reject as invalid concepts Concepts that are either not evident to the senses or concepts which contradict the evidence of the senses and the physical laws of logic and physics that we can derive from them.
	Now, by the time you were debating the nature of the state with someone, that someone is no longer a child, right?
	I mean, you wouldn't want to debate the nature of the state with a six-year-old.
	And so, by the time that somebody becomes an adult, my argument would be, look, most people have spent their lives in public schools, and so if they don't understand that the state is authoritarian, having spent 13 or 14 years being ordered around by some person at the front of a class,
	and having no say in the nature or content of their education, and no say in the quality of their teachers, and no say in the quality of the school as a whole, and no say in teacher feedback, If somebody who's been through public school does not understand that the state is authoritarian, if somebody who's an adult and hasn't paid taxes does not understand that the paying of taxes is not voluntary, then showing them that I think would be kind of like an insult to their ability to think.
	It would be like trying to pretend that action can substitute for an obvious argument, if that makes any sense.
	Right, right. And so showing them that example of The guns coming out when you don't pay your taxes is...
	Yeah, I guess it would be insulting to them, like you were just saying.
	Well, you know what it would be?
	It'd be like if I were having an argument with you, and I said the state is based on coercion, and I put forward the examples, like what happens if you don't pay your taxes?
	What happens to people who disobey the state, regardless of the justice of the state's complaints against them?
	Somebody who's like 20 or whatever, right?
	They obviously have to know...
	That taxation is not voluntary.
	I mean, they have to. They have to understand, because they, you know, by the time you're paying taxes, you understand the difference between a voluntary transaction and an involuntary transaction.
	Even if we were to discard everything to do with public school, you would understand that difference.
	Now, the question is, if people, like, because we all face, we all pow, pow, pow, straight into this brick wall of people explaining away, in quotes, Explaining away the state with social contracts, with participative democracy, if you don't like it, leave it, and all that kind of embarrassing clusterfract nonsense.
	And so I think that the people who are into civil disobedience say, yeah, we run up against this problem that people reject the argument that taxation equals force or statism equals force.
	And so we all have that question, well, why is it that people reject that basic argument?
	And I go into this in How Not to Achieve Freedom and even more in the upcoming How to Achieve Freedom, which I promise I will get done.
	But the question is, why do people reject this basic, obvious, and self-evident argument?
	Why? Now, my argument, of course, is that they've been trained from day one, and they don't want to see the unjust exercise of authority in society because they don't want to see the unjust exercise of authority in their own personal lives, either by teachers or family or priests or whatever, if that stuff exists.
	That's my answer. That it has to be a psychological defense.
	It has to be a psychological defense because the only other alternative is that people can't see that which is obvious and clear.
	In which case we're hopeless.
	We're never going to win. If people are too stupid to understand or too retarded to understand that statism equals force, even though it is a completely self-evident argument to anybody who's over the age of about 12, Then people are too stupid and we just have to retreat into the caves of philosophy and let the idiot whore destroy itself, as it inevitably does, in the absence of reason.
	Other people say, well, they won't get it until they see it.
	And once they see it, then they'll get it.
	And what that means is basically, if we up the pressure on people to believe something that they don't want to believe, then they'll start believing it.
	Like, if I start yelling my argument, Then somebody's going to believe it.
	You say, oh, the government is forced.
	No, it's not. Okay, I'm going to get myself arrested.
	That somebody's then going to see it.
	And I just don't believe that that's true.
	I do not believe at all that when you apply greater pressure to a psychological defense, that defense gets.
	What happens is when you apply greater pressure to a psychological defense, that psychological defense gets stronger.
	Right? Every time you shoot at this armor, The armor gets thicker.
	That's my argument.
	Of course, the people who are into, I'm going to get myself arrested and then you'll understand, I think that they're completely wrong because I don't think they understand why people are resistant to such an obvious idea.
	It's not because they can't see it.
	It's because it's going to have great personal cost for them to see that idea.
	Because we deal in universalities, which means nothing is about the state, right?
	FDR fundamentally has never been about the government.
	It has never been about the government because that is like saying that the principle of honesty is about your salary, talking about your salary honestly.
	No, the principle of honesty is a frickin' principle.
	And what we deal with here is the principle of truth and honor and virtue and all that.
	And what that means is that unjust authority, abusive or brutal authority, should not be in a virtuous person's life, in my very strong opinion.
	Does that include the state?
	Sure, absolutely, just as medicine includes cancer.
	But medicine is not just cancer at the expense of everything else.
	Medicine is everything. And so because we're dealing with principles here, We're not going to focus on just the state.
	And everyone gets that it is a principle.
	If we say you should resist unjust authority, the place that people can have the greatest traction in rejecting unjust or abusive authority can have the greatest traction, the most effect, is in their own personal lives.
	And everybody understands that. And that's why people are resistant to seeing That the state is coercion because they experience coercive or destructive relationships, most people, many people, in their lives as it is.
	And they want to reject it because they get that it's a principle.
	If they accept it in the state, they're going to have to accept it in their lives as a whole.
	Just in the same way you can't say, I'm only going to practice the universal virtue of honesty to one person.
	We understand that's a complete contradiction.
	You can't practice a universal value with only one person.
	And you can't reject unjust authority only with the state, at least not without a huge amount of mental contortions.
	And so in many ways I would say those who resist the idea of the state as force are actually acting with greater integrity than others because they get that it's a principle.
	And that if you pull one thread on that sweater, the whole thing falls apart.
	And so they reject it because they understand the consequences of that universality.
	So that's my argument.
	I could be wrong. I mean, I could be wrong.
	I don't... But the difference is that because I'm an empiricist, because I'm an empiricist, I'm always going towards empiricism.
	So I got a note from one of the guys at Free Talk Live.
	He wants to talk more about civil disobedience.
	I'm happy to do it. My first question is going to be, What's the evidence that it works?
	Now, I know that from my own life, getting rid of unjust authority in my personal relationships, unjust or abusive authorities in my personal relationships, has completely worked!
	The amount of injustice that I experience, the amount of abuse or rejection or hostility that I experience, has plummeted to very little in my personal relationships.
	In fact, it's a practical level of zero.
	I mean, of course I have fewer relationships than I did before, But I can guarantee you and give you a completely confident empirical report that the application of philosophy in my life has resulted in a vast decrease of the amount of unjust or abusive authority in my life.
	I don't believe that that's the case with civil disobedience.
	And so, again, I'm happy to hear arguments to the contrary, but that's...
	Sorry for the long answer, as usual, but that's the basic approach.
	No, no. That makes a lot of sense and that helps reconcile those two things.
	So thank you. That does answer my question completely.
	Beautiful. Beautiful. Thank you.
	That was an excellent, excellent thing to bring up.
	And I appreciate it.
	Sure thing. Thanks for answering.
	All right. I'm just going to look in the chat room and see.
	Somebody's asked about a book mentioned in earlier podcasts called Public Lives.
	It is not published. I have no idea if and when I'm going to get to it.
	So sorry. That is on the to-do list.
	Oh, the to-do list.
	It hangs over me like this sort of Damocles.
	But at some point it will be finished and then I think I will be dead and in the ground and there will be people throwing dirt in my face and many people hopefully sad and a few people perhaps cheering.
	So if you would like to jump in you can type your question Into the chatroom, you can tell James P. you're going to call 315-876-9705 to be added.
	Sorry, somebody has just asked, when will you know if you can make it to Malaga?
	Malaga, Malaga, Malaga.
	And as of now, it looks like we are going.
	We are going, and I can't imagine, unless there's just some monster speaking engagement, That I'm going to have to accept, which I doubt, since I don't have any now.
	So it looks like we will be in Spain, and I'd just like to thank the gentleman who is organizing that for getting that going.
	I think that it's just going to be fantastic to meet everyone.
	We had, I guess, almost two dozen people up here at Christmas, and I hope that you can, you know, if you're listening to this, I hope you can make it to the barbecue in the summer.
	All you have to do is get yourself up here, I will pay for everything that you eat and drink here, so you won't have any cost there.
	And it is just my way of saying thanks again.
	Just get your carcass up here and we will fire the cannon of good summer food at you.
	And we have good hikes and karaoke and all that kind of good stuff.
	So I hope that you can make it up to the barbecue.
	We don't have a time for it as yet, but I can guarantee you it will not be when we're in Spain.
	I can tell you that much for sure.
	Hello Steph.
	Hello.
	I have something to share regarding exercise.
	I have all ears.
	Okay. Muscular ears.
	What's that? Muscular ears, but go on.
	When I exercise or I try to, I get really upset.
	And I want to quit.
	Like it's an emotional kind of thing.
	Let's see. I want to try getting back into exercise because I heard that podcast and part of it is where you say how exercise is good for your brain and it increases your IQ and your general emotions and everything.
	But I have a problem because there's a lot of stuff that comes up when I try to exercise.
	And I stopped about, I think, November or something of last year.
	Or I slowly dropped off.
	You mean it's been a whole decade since you exercised?
	Sorry, go on. No.
	I slowly just dropped off, you know, of doing any kind of exercise and like I guess over the last several months I haven't really done any kind, not even a walk.
	Right. And I want to figure that out because it would be great for my health if I could just get back into that.
	Right, right. A usual caveat, my knowledge about exercise is similar to my knowledge about self-knowledge, which is I've been working on it for a quarter century, but I have no training.
	So I just wanted to mention that to people who are joining us for the first time, but we can certainly talk about it.
	So what kind of exercise are you trying to do or what are you trying to do?
	Let's see. I've done walking.
	I've done running. Yoga.
	Push-ups, stretching.
	I've also done martial arts.
	And I mean, yeah, that would be most of what I've done.
	And which one of those do you like the most, or do you like them all?
	I like martial arts the most.
	I was hoping you were going to say push-ups, because just nobody likes those.
	So you like the martial arts.
	And was that what you were doing last year or were you doing something else?
	Yeah, that's what I was doing last year and the year before.
	Right. And what kind of martial arts were you doing?
	Taekwondo. Taekwondo.
	Okay. Oh, you're just dragging me out under thin ice here.
	I just know it because I'm going to get 12 million emails for what I'm about to say.
	Oh, okay. Look, again, this is all just my opinion, but I don't think that people with a history of physical abuse should get involved in martial arts.
	Yeah. Does that make any sense to you?
	It does, and in fact, there were people in the dojo or dojang or whatever that liked violence.
	I mean, you could just tell they liked throwing me and stuff, and it wasn't helpful to my situation.
	No, I think it's not.
	And when I say that people who have a history of physical abuse should not get involved in martial arts, I've yet to meet anybody who's into martial arts who has not had a history of physical abuse.
	I think that martial arts is fundamentally a ritualized Simon the Boxer for physical abuse.
	That is mine. And I know people are going to email me and they're going to tell me about the...
	The nobility and the history and the stretching and the limber and the blah blah blah.
	But fundamentally it is a ritualized form of combat, right?
	And I just think that people who've had a history of physical abuse should not get involved in ritualized combat any more than they should become boxers or soldiers or, you know, people who are really into martial arts.
	I just think that it's an unhealthy, a very unhealthy way To not deal with the physical abuse.
	I think that if you've had experiences of physical abuse, you need to deal with it with a therapist, and you need to exercise in my opinion, but getting involved in ritual combat with people of questionable stability and a fairly significant degree of physical injury over time, I just think that is a very, very bad idea.
	Sorry, just finish.
	In a very similar way, I'm not going to say it's identical.
	In a very similar way, some people who were sexually abused get involved in sadism and masochism and so on.
	And that is a way of recreating it in a perceptual way to avoid dealing with it in an emotional way.
	And I think that the similar thing occurs in the realm of martial arts.
	But sorry, go ahead. Okay.
	And in fact, I can give you some experiences that kind of coincide with that because, I mean...
	Around the time that I was doing martial arts is when my mom started getting into fights with me or beating me again.
	And I mean, I was like 16 and 17.
	Yeah. And that was around that time.
	And when I got into FDR, I got less interested in martial arts or something.
	Like, I just wasn't motivated anymore.
	Like, it just stopped.
	Right. So, I think that would be some evidence.
	Yeah, and if you want to see this, right, what you can do is you can go to some tough guy who's really into martial arts and you can ask him about his history or whatever and, you know, maybe he'll tell you the truth and maybe he won't.
	But what you can do if he starts talking about the exercise and the limberness and so on, why don't you say to this, you know, that the guy who's really into martial arts, just say, you know, you could get all of that and more from ballroom dancing.
	Yes. And of course, most people would look at you like you just grew a unicorn and a pretty gay one out of your forehead, right?
	Because they're like, I'm not going to get into...
	So you understand, for them, it's not about the stretching and the exercise, which you could get in spades from ballroom dancing.
	It is about a much more macho kind of task, kind of intimidating thing.
	And so I don't know.
	I just... I'm not a fan of martial arts at all.
	And I have some, you know...
	One of my best friends for many years was, I think, way too into martial arts and not into self-knowledge, and it unfortunately had negative consequences for our relationship.
	So again, I'm coming from a slightly biased perspective, but you could also say that I have some empirical evidence, but I just don't think it's the right thing to do.
	Sure. Okay.
	Now, there are other kinds of competition sports.
	And it's funny, you know, when I was younger, I'm sorry, I don't mean to make this about me, but I think this might be important.
	When I was younger, I was much more into competitive sports, right?
	So I played tennis, I played squash, I was on the water polo team, I was on the swim team, I was on the track team.
	I was really into competitive sports.
	And I did fairly well.
	I think I was the eighth best swimmer in Ontario, if I remember rightly.
	So I did fairly well.
	in those sports and I was a good sprinter and all that but I must tell you that since I've gotten older I actually am much less into competitive sports than I used to be and it's not because I don't like competition I actually quite like competition but you know what it is for me and maybe you find a similar thing if you get involved in competitive sports for me it's just a fun game it's a fun game you know it's like It's just a fun test of where you are in your skill set.
	But, you know, when I used to play squash in...
	And I still play squash mostly with my wife when we can.
	But when I used to play squash in like a tree, like in a round robin or whatever, I just...
	I ran into too many of those guys who get really tense about competitive sports.
	You know, like they'd miss a fairly easy shot and they'd be like, damn it!
	You know, and they'd hit their...
	It hit their racket against the wall and stuff like that.
	And I, you know, I just don't want to have that in my life.
	I do not want to have that in my life.
	I don't really do competitive sports anymore.
	That doesn't mean I never will. But I don't really do competitive sports anymore.
	I just, for me, I'm too aware of the stress and dysfunction of a lot of people who are into competitive sports.
	Which is, again, not to say everyone, I don't hold the same standard for that as I do for martial arts.
	But I would suggest that you will probably psychologically benefit most from stuff which is intensive from a cardio standpoint.
	I mean, I loved yoga, particularly Ashtanga yoga, but half the yoga just kind of put me to sleep.
	But I really liked Ashtanga yoga.
	It wasn't a particular cardio workout that was very good for muscular strength and for flexibility.
	I think that if you can find something that you enjoy doing that has some good cardio and strength training, of course, for women, strength training, weight training, you know, it's the old cliche at my gym, right?
	All the guys are huffing weights and all the women are on the Stairmaster.
	And in many ways, that should kind of be reversed, right?
	Women should do weights because it's better for their bones to prevent osteoporosis, which is a particular risk for women, I think.
	And guys should be doing more cardio stuff because, you know, heart disease and so on is more prevalent, I think, among older men.
	So I would just go a little bit against the grain, do some weights and find, you know, a good audio book or a podcast or something to listen to and focus on that.
	Yes? This is the kind of exercise that I get emotional about.
	When I was doing martial arts, I felt ecstatic or something.
	It was really weird. Whenever I was doing competitive sports of any kind, throughout my whole life, I felt very happy.
	I think it would be important to say that my mom and my dad went to the gym a lot.
	And my dad has a hobby as a bodybuilder and I would go to the gym with him and I hate going to the gym.
	I went to the gym for years and I I lifted weights and I went on the treadmill and the Stairmaster for a long time and uh I just can't.
	I don't get any enjoyment out of it.
	And I hate it.
	You have very bad associations with that, right?
	Yeah. It's like a call I had with a guy once.
	His father used to make him run until he would almost throw up.
	You know, that physical exercise can be a kind of punishment, right?
	Yeah, it was kind of like a mental punishment because it's like I'm not the right weight and I need to get the right weight and that was part of it.
	Right, and body vanity is a big issue in my family.
	Body vanity was a very big issue in my family and it's certainly something that has affected me quite a lot throughout my life so maybe there are some aspects of that.
	So is it just at the gym that the negative emotions come up for you?
	Say that again? Is it just at the gym, if you go to the gym, that the negative emotions come up, or is it with any form of exercise?
	I guess any form of exercise in which I'm, like, concentrating, I guess.
	Right. Like, if it goes on for a long time, or I need to concentrate on it, because, I mean, with martial arts or some other fast-paced sport, it's more like a game.
	Yeah. And then I can distract myself.
	Right. So is it when you end up concentrating on the exercise, in a sense, because it's boring or lengthy?
	That must be part of it.
	And what are the feelings that come up?
	It's like... Anguished?
	Yeah. Bored.
	Yeah, definitely Bored.
	English.
	Impatient, I guess.
	I think those are all of them.
	Not sure. Right.
	Right.
	And what is the anguish associated with, do you think?
	think?
	I mean, emotionally, I can't tell.
	It might have something to do with, you know, how my parents took me to the gym and stuff, but I can't see it.
	I don't see it.
	Right, right. That's interesting.
	Now, it could be, and this is just a nonsense theory on my part, of course, but I have this belief that I've sort of developed based upon my experience and the experience of some people I've talked to, that if we experienced particular physical states with regards to trauma as children,
	then when we experience those physical traits or states again, Then we experience the trauma again, if that makes any sense.
	A silly but dark example would be somebody who's terrorized at night as a child will develop a fear of the dark because the physiology of there being no light is associated with the trauma.
	And so it could be that if you had negative experiences at the gym, then when you exercise, it reactivates that body memory, if that makes any sense.
	Oh, yeah. That might be it.
	Like you, we store, like, you know the way that when you have a song that you love, you have all of these associations of when you were singing it or And you can actually re-experience the emotions if you listen to a song.
	I used to listen to The Wall when I was a teenager, like every night, side three.
	And I just, that song, one of the songs, Hey You, came on the radio the other day.
	And I instantly remembered that, you know, very physical aspect of my youth and what it was like and all that.
	So I had, even with just the song, it was strongly associated, the physical state of listening to that particular song was really associated with remembering certain aspects of my youth.
	I have that with lots of music and certain movies.
	I remember seeing certain movies.
	I remember what my life was like and what I was feeling when I first saw those movies.
	It could be other things as well, books as well.
	Every time I read Crime and Punishment or Lord of the Rings or whatever, I remember the other layers or other times that I read it.
	I first read Lord of the Rings when I was in Africa when I was 16, and then I read it again when I was in university.
	I read it again about a decade ago.
	I remember, even when I'd come to certain pages, and I would remember where I was and what I was doing and what I was feeling when I was reading that same page 10 years ago or 20 years ago or whatever.
	And that, I think, is important, that if you end up having a similar physiological situation as when you were going through a situation of stress or abuse, it's been my experience that it can reactivate the feelings that were there before, if that makes any sense.
	Right, right.
	I'm going to type something into Skype.
	Hey, no.
	Okay, thank you, Steph.
	That gave me something to think about.
	Right, so what I would do is then try and do the opposite of what the gym thing was, if that makes any sense.
	So, yeah, just whatever it was that you did that was traumatic with you with your dad, just try and do an exercise that is in a very different environment.
	It may be something at home with a tape or something like that.
	So I just wanted to mention that.
	Now, somebody had mentioned in the chat room, which is an excellent opposition to what I was saying about my perspectives or experiences of people in martial arts.
	He said, I know a guy who runs a kung fu dojo, and he's one of the most laid-back and nice people in the world and quite a pacifist, so it depends on the person.
	And of course, that's entirely true.
	And I certainly don't want to be one of these guys who's like, aha, the exception that proves the rule.
	But what I will say is that the question I would ask that fellow is, why do you want to spend your time around people who are really interested in combat, in ritualized combat, a lot of whom are pretty disturbed?
	So maybe he grew up as the guy who managed the aggression of other people or controlled the aggression of other people, like one of those kids who's a real natural peacemaker, and maybe that's his job.
	He then made that his profession because he developed all of those skills.
	It could be.
	I don't know. It doesn't disprove or prove anything, but that's the question that I would ask in order to defend a theory, which may be defensible or may not be.
	That's my thought. Alright, well listen, thanks.
	Let us know how it goes, but try not to give up on the exercise thing, but just try and find ways of doing it that are going to not trigger the same emotions.
	That would be my suggestion. I mean, I find exercise terrifically boring, frankly.
	I mean, it is just one of these maintenance things.
	It's about as interesting as watching somebody change the oil on your car.
	So I just have to find ways to make it enjoyable.
	And the way that I do it is I just, it's so ridiculous.
	You're supposed to mix up your exercises, and I haven't really mixed them up in about 20 years.
	And that's just because to learn a new exercise, I have to then concentrate, and then I'm almost immediately completely bored.
	So I just have this Automatic routine that I go through, and it seems to serve me pretty well.
	But it's just so that I can listen to an audiobook or do a podcast or something else.
	So that's my suggestion.
	If you find it boring, just get into a routine where you can kind of do it mindlessly, and then you can focus or concentrate on something else.
	All right, somebody's typed a question into the chat room.
	She says, okay, here's my question.
	I've heard a lot of libertarian women say, most of my friends are men.
	I can't stand women. They're so superficial.
	And I don't care about makeup or talking about fashion.
	My question is, what is the real reason they are saying these things?
	Women outnumber men at law school and medical school and many other graduate school.
	These women care for their appearance and their intellect.
	And even if they may not be liberty-minded, it doesn't mean they're idiots.
	I'd like to know why so many libertarian women denigrate other women.
	Psychologically, I see it as a sign of insecurity.
	Economically, it could be a move to create a situation of greater Monopsony.
	I don't know what that means, power in a group of mostly men, by spreading information that there are no other desirable women available to compete.
	In at least one situation where a libertarian woman was telling me this, I interpreted it as a direct threat or warning of some kind, so I limited my social contact with her.
	Libertarian women like to brag about how they're more secure with their intellect and persons than usual, but why this petty denigration of their own gender?
	Monopsony. One buyer.
	Many sellers.
	Oh, the opposite of monopoly. Okay.
	I thought that would be Yalapanom, but anyway.
	Monopsony. Sorry, that's an N. Thank you.
	That's my new word of the day.
	Well, if you'd like to chat, I wouldn't want to guess about someone else's experience of libertarian women.
	I have not had that experience of libertarian women, but then I don't really know libertarian women, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to not comment on that, because I would be theorizing.
	About something that I haven't had any direct experience of.
	I would not want to hazard a guess.
	And we have time for, oh my goodness, a whole sackload of more questions if you would like to.
	Jump in. Hey, Steph.
	Can you hear me? I sure can.
	Since it's open topic, I thought that I would make a couple comments to you and see if there's a conversation we can have, maybe?
	Sure, please do. It's been a pretty big time, I guess, in my life.
	I think, not I think, I know that your stuff has had a lot of impact on me.
	First, politically, and then on my religious beliefs.
	First, I'd like to say I'm very thankful for that and your life's work.
	Well, I appreciate that.
	Thank you. Yeah, I come from a Mormon background.
	Oh, man. So sorry.
	Born and raised. I'm very fresh.
	In August, I was convinced for the logic and reasoning and anarchism, but I still was too afraid to You know, use that same methodology for, you know, religion.
	But in November, I finally really, you know, I got tired of all the, like, disagreements and the moral contradictions, like things like Prop 8 and authority.
	And, you know, it can't be right to tell your kids and not give your kids a choice to make these decisions for themselves.
	It's just, in my opinion, that's just It's always wrong to not let your kids grow up and make their own decisions on stuff that's opinion.
	And so when I finally did, it was really interesting.
	It was early December when I finally said – I first made the decision to park it and just hold it in and live with it for a little bit.
	But then I was like, I've got to really be honest.
	You know, with myself about this and just not feel like I'm holding something back, you know?
	And so I came out and I talked to my mom and one of my most influential spiritual, like, advisor type guys, you know, who basically growing up, I said, I want to be just like him, you know?
	And, you know, my mom at first, I can tell she held a lot back, but what really started the...
	The pain in it was when I talked to the spiritual advisor guy.
	His name is Mike. Every conversation I ever had with this guy has been positive.
	We talked about things we both agreed on and were sure about in our special place in the world and our purpose and our representing good and truth and all that.
	I can tell my mom talked to him before I talked to him.
	When I talked to him, I could kind of see already he was a little let down, and then I made an opening statement where I was myself.
	I was just trying to be as respectful as possible and stating my views.
	I really thought he would be interested in where I'm at in my life and have a discussion about it.
	If he really cares about me, I'm open to have a discussion about it.
	And so I open up by saying, In the church, we really believe we have access to the spirit that bears truth of the most important things.
	And I've just been asking myself a lot of questions lately, and it doesn't seem like this spirit reflects on things in reality but only is really confident about things in spiritual senses.
	Hmm. And so once I really started to be honest with myself about that, I'm like, yeah, there's something here I have to – and then when I was convinced about it and I wanted to ask him because clearly his objective there, he was prepared to try to end my doubt and keep me in the faith.
	I knew that. I just – I know the psychology there.
	That's – it's like a battle.
	His goal was to put my doubts to rest and keep me going forward with faith.
	But once I basically said and I basically put it like, yeah, we have this Holy Ghost, but when it comes to all these things that surround us that are going on wrong, it doesn't seem like that's important enough to make a moral position.
	Yet you have this access.
	You claim to have this access.
	And then after I went on for 30 more seconds, he's like, all right, that's enough.
	That's enough. I can't take any more of this.
	That's bullshit. And then he's like, where's your scriptures?
	Where's your scriptures? And then I got him some scriptures.
	Because I went into it just – I really was – I'm not going to lose my cool.
	I've had enough experiences with endless, irrational religious debates where you do that, and it's just stupid.
	And so I was just going to keep my – and hear what he has to say.
	And he opens up the scriptures, and he goes to a part in the Book of Mormon where they talk about – and they will try to flatter – The children of God with flattering words and sophistries, which is like men's philosophy, and they'll be lured away by Satan and all of this stuff, and he's like, now you listen to me.
	You are entering down a dark alley.
	Many, many men have bore witness of the truth of these things to you.
	And you have not acted on these things.
	And look where your life is now.
	Because I've been struggling in my life because it's just been such...
	I don't have any...
	It's like I've been being pulled in five different directions with no foundation.
	It's been pretty depressing.
	And he kind of used that against me.
	And I can't really defend myself and say, yeah, I'm doing great in my life.
	And he's like...
	And then he really just reiterated fear that...
	You have felt the truth of these things.
	The Spirit has bore witness to you.
	So you're denying that Spirit.
	And I went into it pretty confident in my position, but I'm not one of those that stopped believing when I was 10.
	I was sure about these things up until two weeks before that discussion.
	I'm sorry, when did the discussion happen?
	It happened a month ago.
	But if you would ask me a month before that discussion, if I would even think about myself as a non-Mormon, I would say no.
	I would bet any amount of money.
	It was almost like until – I think it was really – until I was really fully able to look at it as rationally as I could, then it was a quick switch.
	But until then, when you're so sure about an eternal perspective on these things, it's almost impossible to penetrate that.
	Sure, sure.
	Nothing can be as important as eternity and ultimate purpose in living forever in this thing.
	Nothing as little as human beings can ever persuade past that.
	And so it was like an instant thing.
	It was just more of a comfortable with that feeling, a different perspective change.
	Right.
	But it was like all these pressure points being pushed that I was really weakened because 25 years of – I would say probably about 15 years of actually really understanding it and believing it… Ten years old, you probably understand things a little bit better, at least what they're telling you.
	And there's like just pushing them and pushing them, and man, I was rocked.
	I did not expect it at all.
	But – and then afterwards, I'm like, ooh, that's – good thing later that night I went to a Metallica concert.
	That was therapeutic. Right.
	Absolutely. Absolutely.
	That was the best night of my life because – That'll blow some cobwebs out of your brain, right?
	That wall of noise, right?
	Right. Oh yeah.
	And then the next day I talk with my mom about it and it's like she's crying and she's like, I know that you'll be back.
	And I know the real you.
	You believed this at one time.
	And I know you will be living with me in eternity, and even though you're straying now, you'll still be with me.
	And see, that's the kind of – see, this is why I think it was hard for me, is because Mormonism is set up – it's not – I guess if you accept the assumption of God, it seems way less crazy than like Baptists where they're saying, yeah, you don't believe in this life, you're going to hell, you know?
	So if you accept the assumption that, yes, Jesus Christ died for us, if you accept that in that mindset, clearly, I guess to me at the time, it was clear to me that he's not just going to send people to hell.
	He would want families to be together forever.
	He would want to give people chances, and so that was why it was less hard for me.
	Right. Right. Because it's kind of like an updated version where they throw away a lot of the real scary stuff and added a bunch more cool stuff.
	Yeah, and of course your mom can't – logically your mom can't be in heaven if you're not there because she would miss you so it wouldn't be heaven for her.
	It would be kind of a hell, right?
	So unless everybody's there, nobody goes to heaven, right?
	Yeah, it's like she'll never accept that.
	I mean, yeah, it just wouldn't make sense for her just to say, yes, my son's going to hell, but I'm still going to love him.
	And that just doesn't make sense.
	And I'm still going to be happy in heaven, right?
	She couldn't be happy in heaven if you're not there.
	So there's no way that, yeah, I understand.
	There's no such thing as heaven unless everyone you care about is perfectly virtuous and goes there, which, of course, is not logically possible.
	But anyway, let me not distract you.
	Is there more that you wanted to say about your experience?
	I'm certainly happy to hear. Hmm.
	Yeah, well, about my – that was basically the big gist of my religious conversion since it was – I mean my deconversion.
	But that was a month ago, so it's like – it's so fresh.
	You know what I mean? And so I'm really – I'm making plans to move in with a friend in – I sure do.
	I sure do. Yeah, and I guess that's going to be my next thing.
	I think the hurdle I've been passing through the last couple weeks is weak atheism to strong atheism.
	I think I'm about there.
	It was harder when it was fresh because the whole thing – well, it still could be possible.
	But now that I'm really farther and farther removed from it, the whole idea of saying, well, do you believe in leprechauns?
	That makes a lot more sense now.
	I can accept that spaghetti monster stuff that I thought was insane.
	Now it makes a lot of sense.
	I see what you guys are talking about.
	I think my next hurdle is the family thing.
	What context?
	What's interesting is my dad actually stopped believing when I was five.
	Huh. But he's not strong in his convictions about really anything.
	He has that, when you know, you'll never know, you really know kind of attitude.
	So he wasn't like, you know, he's, and I've listened to your stuff on Gnosticism, and he's that.
	Right. So he stopped believing, but he thought, oh, I guess there's some good that can come from them being raised here, and But then he was set up by my mom as someone who fell away and was wrong.
	And are they still together?
	They're just separated, not divorced.
	I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
	But funnily enough, I've been talking to my dad about a lot of this stuff, and he's actually not disagree with me or really anything.
	And our relationship's actually really good, whereas my mom, I'm finding less and less reasons to like her, you know?
	And that's something that is so foreign to me.
	Even a week ago, I wouldn't even consider it, but it's growing, this difference in me.
	I considered her like my best friend for 25 years.
	Right. Up until recently.
	But why?
	Why? That's the question.
	What is so great about our relationship?
	Ever since I changed in perspective to be an anarchist and now atheist, we can't even hold a conversation about anything except a couple smiles into how you're doing.
	Oh, listen, I really do understand that and I really do sympathize.
	When you have... When you have a fundamental break in values, it's like if you get your tooth pulled out, your tongue just goes back there all the time.
	You can't stop, in a sense, picking at it because it is such a massive divergence of values from where you were before, right?
	Exactly. And I can't just ignore that because now that I'm very sure about the things that I am sure about, And they're very important, the opposite side of it.
	And you can't have a lot of respect for...
	And that's where I can be a strong atheist almost on the thought that I was having that it cannot be right to raise your kids and tell them lies.
	And so if that's right in all of these types of beliefs, then it can't be.
	That can't be. And so I totally know that that is wrong.
	And that difference is just such a different perspective.
	That is just, it's almost irreconcilable.
	Right. Now, I mean, I don't know anything about your mom, and it doesn't matter in a sense, but is there a possibility that she didn't know that they were lies, right?
	Because if she didn't know, if she'd never been exposed to any philosophy or rational thinking or biological thinking or empirical evidence or that whole approach, If she'd never had any of that sort of stuff in her life, although...
	No, sorry. Of course she did, because your dad, right?
	Stopped believing many years ago.
	And they're both converts.
	From what? From basically, you know, just various, you know, whatever.
	I don't know what that means.
	Like some Christian, some other denomination.
	Yeah, like, you know, she was like...
	My dad actually used to be like...
	Real Christian and, you know, like the evangelical type.
	And then he's like... I think he more converted because of my mom.
	My mom, you know, she had a kid and she believed in God but didn't know, you know, what to believe.
	And she talked with missionaries and that whole thing.
	And so she's a convert.
	So she understood, you know, she's not like a...
	So she really... She got the missionaries and got converted, and so that was her.
	It wasn't even a thing you're born into.
	It was really a voluntary thing.
	So, I mean, you really have to be convinced if, I guess, if you're a voluntary, you know, you're going into it, you know, saying, yeah, this makes a lot of sense.
	I want to hear more. Right.
	It's not that I think that she's, you know, manipulating.
	No, she really believes it.
	Right. And so I'm not coming from the position that she's doing that, but that's my perspective.
	And just because, you know, someone doesn't know that they're doing something, it still doesn't mean you can respect it anymore, you know?
	Yeah, you know, I mean, this is one thing I fucking hate about religion.
	I'll be completely, brutally frank with you, which is just my opinion.
	What I fucking hate about religion is that, you know, if you're born white into some, and I'm not equating your parents to this exactly, it's just a metaphor, right?
	But if you're born white into a Ku Klux Klan family, There's no chance that you're ever going to wake up and be black one day, right?
	And then they're going to be like, well, shit, you know, we don't like the blacks and now our son just turned black and they're not going to be faced with that, right?
	But religion, particularly, you know, the more fundy type of Christianity, I mean, they've got a big problem with atheists, right?
	I don't know if you saw the video that I did on people's prejudice Against atheists.
	But being an atheist is like being an Islamic, black, gay guy with a ticking time bomb trapped to his chest in an airport line.
	I mean, people just really have a problem with atheists.
	Now, with religion, it's like the KKK, but the kid can wake up And be black!
	Or, I don't know, an illegal immigrant Mexican guy.
	It's like, I put him to bed, he was snowy white, he woke up, he was coal black, you know?
	And then, they've got that big problem, right?
	It's like, well, we're kind of racist, and now we have a black kid.
	And with the religion, particularly the fundamentalist religion, well, we don't like atheists, and now we have an atheist kid.
	And it's like, damn!
	You know, I hate that.
	I hate that. A crazy idea like God can come between a family.
	And I hate that parents would even think about choosing a fantasy called God over their own children.
	I mean, that to me is just crazy.
	But people do that all the time.
	It's not just with God, right?
	I mean, it's with this woman in Michael Moore's film, Fahrenheit 911, whose kid says, I really don't want to go to Iraq.
	He goes to Iraq and he gets killed.
	But before he goes to Iraq, his mother tells him, well, you've made this commitment.
	You know, we love our country. We come from a long line of military people.
	She puts the fucking fantasy of church and state and president and army above the life of her own child.
	It's just astounding to me.
	And this is what I hate about these foggy, stupid, bullshit concepts.
	They stand between people.
	They rip families apart because...
	You start thinking and suddenly you run up against all these prejudices and you sit there on your hands and knees in front of your family and you say, please, dear God, for the love of all that's holy, I'm an atheist, I'm going to use these phrases anyway, please, dear God, for the love of all that's holy, do not choose the dead ghosts of Desert Betty went from 200 or 2,000 years ago above me, above your flesh and blood, right?
	And I just hate the fact that so many people choose these bullshit abstractions of states and gods and Patriotisms and countries above their own flesh and blood.
	Family should be the tightest thing in the world.
	It should be the most loyal thing in the world.
	It should be the place where everybody holds each other as sacred above all lies, above all propaganda, above all errors, above all superstitions.
	But it so rarely is the case that that actually happens.
	So I just wanted to really sympathize with you about the differences and the challenges that you're facing here.
	Yeah, it's like, I'm standing right here.
	Yeah, flesh and blood.
	I'm right in front of you.
	I'm a person. I got feelings.
	You can feel me. We've had great real experiences with each other, you know, and then some bad ones and we're supposed to, you know, but it really, when you think about it, it's like, it's ironic.
	You know, the newborn baby comes into the world, you know, has no belief.
	They love it with everything. But because of this, this book says that This child needs to be this way to be accepted.
	That's just... And look, my answer, understand, it's not because I think you're probably smarter than me.
	It's not because I'm any smarter. It's just because I wasn't in the situation having questioned my superstition two weeks previously.
	But so somebody says to me, well, Steph, you used to believe in Jesus and that Jesus died for your sins and so on.
	And that's the real you. And I would say in reply, it's like, well, I used to believe in Santa Claus when I was a little younger than that.
	And then I stopped believing in Santa Claus because I grew up mentally, right?
	I became mature.
	I became a man mentally.
	And I stopped believing in things that make no sense.
	That to me is growing up.
	So there's no true Steph down in the base of my spine that used to believe in Santa Claus that's still there, that's still the real me.
	Now, I've outgrown those illusions.
	I've outgrown the lies that people told me.
	So I don't believe in Santa Claus.
	And, oh, you know, the Easter Bunny and unicorns and fairies and dragons and orcs and goblins and...
	Fairies and Banshees and Dryads and Nyads and all of the fantasy creatures, the Griffins and the Dragons.
	There's no real me that used to believe in all this nonsense that's still in there.
	I've just outgrown it.
	There's no 10-year-old Steph in my body somewhere who never went through puberty.
	I've just outgrown being a child.
	And so I would say, if you think that I believed something and therefore I'm now bound to believe it for the rest of my life or become somehow false to myself...
	Then I would say to that person, do you still believe in Santa Claus?
	And they would say, well, of course not.
	It's like, well, now you understand where I'm coming from.
	Just because you used to believe in something that you were told that was false and you outgrew it and you thought for yourself doesn't mean that you're somehow false.
	It means you're actually true to yourself by having reason and evidence as your standard of value.
	So that's one thing that I would say.
	The other thing is that, you know, as you've mentioned, we don't have to get into any details unless you're really dying to.
	You know, your life is not going well at the moment and I mean, I get a lot of communication about this, so I would give you a very, well, somewhat short speech and I hope that that will help you.
	Look, the way that I view the world in this particular, it's just my view, maybe right, maybe wrong, but this is my view.
	The way that I view the world is that when we are born, we are born rational and empirical and good and kind and sensitive and blah blah blah.
	Unfortunately, though, we are fed a particular drug.
	It's dripped into it, it's fed into it, it's stirred into our baby food, it's put into our formula, and the drug is illusion, superstition, patriotism, illusion, fundamentally, lies.
	They may not be thought of as lies by the people who are telling them to us, but that's what they are, in fact.
	And we become addicted to these lies, and these lies infest us and inhabit us, and like bad money drives out good, lies drive out integrity and virtue and honesty, Self-knowledge and empathy and all those good things that we're trying to dredge up like the Titanic and recover in this philosophical conversation.
	And at some point we're all staggering around the drug addicted to these falsehoods which have carved out and replaced some basic elements of our true selves.
	And at some point in our life, and I believe this is true of just about everybody, at some point in our lives We get this suspicion that all is not well with the world that we live in as a whole and with the social world that we live in of people more immediately around us.
	And we say, you know, it could be that everyone is a drug addict and they don't know it.
	Because everyone's a drug addict, so there's no compared to what, right?
	But deep down, everybody knows this is true, that most people The vast majority are fed on lies that have taken over their minds, like a possession of a demon.
	And if you were an actual drug addict, and everyone around you was an actual drug addict, and you were the first one to give up drugs, how would it appear to everyone else?
	What would you look like? That's a real question for you.
	Oh, you would look at me like Well, we've been living off of this for so long.
	Why do you say we don't need this anymore?
	Like, what are you, crazy? They would perhaps say that, but what I mean is, if everyone around you was addicted to heroin, and you were the first one to give up heroin, I mean, your physical reactions would be horrible, right?
	You'd go through detox, right?
	You'd be throwing up, you'd be covered over, you'd be staggering around, and everybody would say, what?
	Well...
	Would they say, you're healthy and we're sick?
	No.
	Oh yeah, I see what you're saying.
	You do, right? Yeah, I'm sorry, my brain's just a little fried today.
	No, no, listen, it's a tough question, because I'm asking yourself to put yourself in the mindset of people who don't seem to have a lot of empathy, right?
	So if you're the first one to kick the heroin habit of illusion...
	Yeah, I see what you're saying. They would think that there's something wrong with me because of the effects that it's having on me initially.
	Right, they'd say, hey, we're doing great here.
	You're the one who's doubled over and throwing up and shaking and unable to sleep and unable to work, and you're the one who looks like he's falling apart right in front of her eyes.
	So we need to fix you because you're sick, right?
	Yeah, I've been thinking about that exact thing.
	You know, I call it bliss, though.
	It's the bliss. I've had conversations with myself about it.
	I realize this bliss is all great, and it seems like it's all great, but I realize it's hard once you step out of that, but eventually it's going to be a lot better, and I'll be better for it.
	Yeah, I mean, it is everybody that I know of, and I can tell you this is certainly true for myself, everybody I know of who genuinely gets into philosophy and tries to live rational values Looks really unwell and feels unwell for quite some time.
	And people will sort of say, look, you got into this philosophy and now look what's happening to your life.
	You've dropped out of school.
	You broke up with your girlfriend. You don't see your friends anymore.
	You spend all your time on the internet.
	You do this. You're listening to all this stuff over and over.
	What happened to you? You're not well, right?
	What's wrong with you?
	You were fine. And I'm still fine, and now you're sick, and I'm still well.
	Everybody who gets into philosophy takes an immediate nosedive into a very grim place.
	And it's, you know, like anybody who quits drugs.
	We understand that quitting drugs...
	Sorry, man. It sounds like I'm yelling at you.
	We understand that quitting drugs makes you sick, right?
	Yes. And we understand that quitting alcohol, if you're an alcoholic...
	And you quit, you're going to get the delirium tremens.
	Your hands are going to shake so much you can't even put a key in a lock.
	You're going to get sick.
	We understand that if somebody goes on a diet, they're going to be shaky, they're going to be nauseous, they're going to be, right?
	We understand a smoker who quit smoking is going to be irritable and snappy.
	We understand that everybody who gives up an unhealthy addiction gets sick.
	And that those who don't give up that unhealthy addiction look a lot better in the moment.
	Because you've got one guy shaking and puking his guts out, and you've got another guy puffing on a cigarette, drinking his drink and snorting his cocaine, saying, I feel great.
	I really appreciate that perspective.
	Because that's exactly what I've been through in the fact that it's set up that way, too.
	You know, we'll get you hooked on this, and then when one goes away, we just have to point and say, look at this life.
	Why do you want to be like that?
	And that's exactly what's been told to me every time.
	Probably every single time by someone who's still a member who says, well, where's the fruits of these decisions?
	Look at your life. Look at everybody else's.
	And I can't really – I don't know what to say.
	I would love to use that and be able to – because I haven't prepared myself to be able to respond.
	I don't really – To me, a decent conversation is not using someone's vulnerable points to really make them feel like shit.
	I'm not prepared to really battle that with people I love, quote-unquote.
	You know what I mean? But why should you battle that?
	Yeah. Because all I have ever approached is I love you and I just like to talk to you about things I'm going through in my life and my perspective on things.
	It's just like automatic battle and And then once they use the...
	It's like putting a pin in me and I deflate.
	Well, look at your life. Where has this gotten you?
	Right. You know? Right.
	Right. Sorry, sorry.
	And I just wanted to point out that if you were involved with a whole bunch of alcoholics, and I'm just using this as a metaphor, right?
	If you were involved in a whole bunch of alcoholics and you said, listen, I've...
	And if those alcoholics had given you alcohol while you were growing up...
	...and got you addicted to alcohol while you were growing up...
	...and I'm sorry for such a brutal metaphor...
	...but that's how I view the indoctrination of children...
	...in superstitious nonsense like religion.
	It is the injection of something that I believe is damaging to the brain...
	...and eventually to the body.
	And so if your parents had fed you alcohol...
	...or your priests had fed you alcohol and got you addicted...
	You would understand that bringing up that you were quitting alcohol while they were still drinking alcohol would be threatening to them, right?
	Yeah. And I just want you to be aware of that because I don't want you to keep reaching into this blender and getting your head mushed up, right?
	Oh, for sure.
	And I've subtly been learning that.
	And I remember even in the conversation I had with the guy, I was thinking...
	At a point in the midst of a lot of other emotions, I was thinking, you know, he has to do this right now.
	He really, in his perspective, can't just say, oh yeah, that's reasonable.
	Or, I really hope you do well with that.
	It was more, good luck with that.
	Good luck with your life.
	There's no possible way, I guess, if he assumes what he believes is the absolute truth, that he can really feel good about me and Learning things and questioning things and any good feelings about that.
	And once your belief sets up that dynamic between people you supposedly love, it's just, that's why it's so wrong.
	Right, and look, I mean, if I had a dime for every time I heard this family structure where the mother was more religious than the father, I'd have, you know, quite a cathedral of dimes.
	And the reason for that, I believe, is pretty basic.
	The priests fasten their fangs onto the necks of women more than men, right?
	Because the women raise the children.
	And so the women are the carriers for the virus of religiosity.
	And so if you want to infect the children, you have to infect the mother and you have to keep that poison through the veins of the mother.
	Because otherwise she won't infect the children.
	And the children then won't be infected and they won't be profitable Yeah, I can't remember there ever being much of a struggle for him,
	but yeah, for the women, you know, the women will come over with their baked goods and, you know, tell you everything they can.
	It's like We lost one.
	We got to go get her back and keep it all going and keep all this thing going.
	Right, right. Because if your mom gives up, right, the whole virus is very shaky.
	The whole virus of religion is incredibly shaky.
	If your mom breaks free, if she quits the addiction, right, then she's going to support you quitting the addiction.
	You guys get a lot healthier.
	Well, you're friends with their kids, right?
	Right. Yeah, I realized why it can't happen, because that whole investment and the whole social structure, it breaks it all up.
	They have to keep it together, because they're surviving on it.
	So listen, it sounds like...
	Violently disagree with your mom about religiosity, and I'm sure that's no surprise to you.
	But it does sound to me like there are some good things in your relationship with your mom that's not fundamentally focused on religion, right?
	You know...
	Or is there? I mean, I could be wrong.
	I'm just... Because you said she was your best friend.
	You know, I'm just... Well, I said...
	And what I should have finished with that sentence is that she was my best friend once...
	When we were both Republicans and when we were both Mormons.
	It's like now – I mean I can't think of a productive conversation that I've had with her that she didn't eventually get offended by something because it might have been in favor of evolution or just something that might have even questioned one of her assumptions in her faith.
	And of course, and I was going to earlier, I just made a note to myself, you know, maybe suggest that you have conversations with your mom about movies or stuff.
	But the problem is that this is what is consuming you mentally at the moment, right?
	And the philosophy and thoughts and values and reason, I mean, you're just, you're reconfiguring your whole brain.
	You're turning on entire generators that will never turn back on.
	I mean, the sun has risen, right?
	Over a nighted landscape and it's never going back down and so this is really consuming you mentally so it's not like you can have a conversation about you know spring and flowers and woodchucks with your mom because this is the stuff that's always on your mind and if you can't share it it does it does that feel kind of false like you'd be repressing something that's important for you to talk about?
	Right now yeah I mean I've talked with some people and they say yeah I just you know I say hi once in a while but I don't really think about her in my everyday life and it's not like a huge thing and I know I'll eventually get there.
	I wasn't very confident a month ago, but I've been rapidly thinking things that I didn't even think I'd be thinking, even after I deconverted.
	I'm very confident that as long as I keep analyzing each thing and thinking about it rationally and with good reason, then I think I'll get there and I'll be okay with that.
	Yeah, I just, I would be very, very careful about, in fact, if I were you, and this is, I never tell anybody what to do, because it would be a ridiculous thing to say.
	But if I were in your shoes, my friend, I would be very wary, in fact, to the point where I just would not bring up what I was thinking about with people.
	Unless they really show genuine curiosity and empathy towards me.
	Because I think that if you're trying to get over a toxin, you need to not be exposed to that toxin.
	And the toxin, I mean, if you have relationships with your family or others that are outside the bounds of this, then, you know, by all means, if I were you, I would sort of go and enjoy those things.
	You know, have a barbecue and talk about the weather or whatever is comfortable.
	But... If the re-imposition of superstition, of religiosity, of error, of falsehood, of lies, of this exploitive nonsense, if that is a toxin that you're trying to rid yourself of, I would not go and drink more as long as I could manage it because that's just going to make it so much harder.
	And from my experience, you are absolutely right, and I've failed at many times trying to, you know, prove the opposite of that, but I always come away thinking I have to apologize because I've made...
	Right, right. And that is a horrible feeling.
	You know, that's not the point.
	Right. I mean, we have to— You know, and it's so interesting.
	I'm sorry if I'm interrupting you, but it's so interesting.
	And this is something that really bothers me is that they—I don't feel that they ever feel any bad feelings about—maybe you insulted me a little bit or maybe you feel a little bad.
	I don't hear any sorries.
	You know, the sorry ratio is probably 1,000 to 1.
	Right. And that is something I really – I ignore that a lot, but that's telling.
	Yeah, and that's not a very good sign in my opinion.
	Yeah. What's holding it together?
	What's holding the bond together?
	It's not a lot.
	I guess if I had to make my guess and if she was honest, it's probably the fact that I could possibly change in the future to something that she might agree with and be proud of.
	Right, so she's going to hold out until this quote phase is over, right?
	Yeah, and good luck, but as long as it keeps you cordial, I guess if she wants to hold on to that fantasy too, that's okay, whatever.
	And look, parents, from what I've seen and experienced, my thoughts, right?
	When parents are faced with a change in values on the part of a child...
	They can take one of two paths.
	They can either attempt to accommodate and to reason with and to incorporate the change in values into the family structure, which personally is very challenging and will cause them to question their own particular beliefs and cause them to examine their own history, their own parenting, the parents they had, and all of this sort of stuff.
	If you attempt to incorporate a value that is fundamentally changed in a relationship, It is very challenging for the parent.
	In a sense, the parent then becomes the child.
	It's a role reversal that is challenging because you are able to instruct them on things that your mom in particular, right, that she may not want to be instructed on.
	So you can either take that one challenging path and you can just say, okay, well, he's changed and if I continue to reject what he believes in, then it's going to cause huge problems to our relationship, right?
	I need to try and figure out what is going on and what is attractive about what he's thinking and respect that he's got a difference of opinion from me and try and work to build bridges to incorporate these beliefs to negotiate, right?
	Unfortunately, religious parents are really bad at negotiating which is one of the reasons why I dislike religion so much because it is an authoritarian, fundamentally aggressive way of imprinting falsehoods on the tender and innocent minds of children.
	You might as well tattoo their foreheads with great pain, right?
	So that's the one path.
	Now the other path that all too many parents choose when their child comes to them with a fundamental change in values or a growth in values or growth in any kind is I'm just going to apply pressure and hang on hoping that he's going to pop back into his old shape.
	That way I don't have to confront my own beliefs.
	I don't have to negotiate. I don't have to admit that I told him things as if they were true when he was a kid, like Jesus died for your sins, that I can't rationally defend for five minutes.
	Right? So they're just kind of like, I'm just going to set myself against this change.
	I'm going to maybe mock, maybe undermine, maybe criticize, maybe ignore, maybe withdraw, maybe get aggressive.
	I'm just going to apply pressure to my child, hoping that he...
	Pops right back into the old conformity shape, right?
	I'm just going to hope he pops right back.
	That it's just a phase that if he realizes how little I approve and how much I disapprove, he's just going to pop right back into his old shape and everything's going to continue.
	And he's going to apologize for putting me through these difficulties and everything's going to go back to the way that it was.
	Yeah, the standard line is...
	I guess you're just going to have to go out in the world, and when you fail, you'll come back and you'll know why you failed.
	And so like a little bit of pride and cowardice creeps in my senses and like, oh no, now I'm afraid to fail because everybody's going to think, oh, see, he went away from the faith and he failed, so there you go.
	It's like, oh, this is so stupid.
	Right, right. Yeah, and it's like a self-fulfilling curse, and then you also feel like, well, for atheists everywhere, I can't fail!
	Right, for sure. Yeah, or if he succeeds, it's in vain, you know, and he enjoys the pleasure, you know, he enjoys, you know, worldly things.
	That's funny. You know, my big brother, you know, he was like, oh, I see, you're into the worldly things.
	I'm like, that's where we live!
	Into the worldly things, right.
	Yeah, and so it's just, it's that perspective.
	The word rational is almost like a banned word.
	If you say, let's think about things rationally, people are looking at you like, whoa, what influence you under?
	I guess if you're just coming from that, you've got to not talk about those things.
	I think I'll become more comfortable with that, but it's a big change.
	It is a big change.
	Listen, I really sympathize and I sure as hell wish that you didn't have quite as high and a rocky hill to climb.
	I really do, but oh man, it is an incredible thing that you're doing.
	That's something that I really am sad about.
	Not only me, but when I think about the situation in general, imagine if I was just taught basic reasoning skills and taught different things and I could have gone through all this stuff when I was a teenager and had fun with it.
	You could be all past this and you can really delve into your creative side and really be happy and all that.
	It just could be so much better for You know, upbringing and all that.
	It's just so sad, the reality of it.
	It is, it is.
	But hey, you know, better 25 than 35 or 45, 55 or never, right?
	Yeah, I consider myself, especially in the real, like having a real belief in them, I consider myself lucky in my situation that I can at least have this conversation with myself and talk with people like you.
	And, you know, so I have a good foundation I appreciate your life's work and it's made a big difference in my life and so I really appreciate that too.
	I appreciate that, and thanks so much for the call.
	Do try and keep us posted if you can, and talk to people who are in the same way of thinking, which is to me the only way of really thinking.
	But you don't want to be the scientist in the land of mystics, right?
	You want to make sure that you're in contact with other scientists.
	Otherwise, it's going to be a lot harder than it needs to be, although it's not going to be easy, and I really do sympathize with that.
	You know, this is the only way that I know that the world can be improved, is bit by bit, person by person, relationship by relationship.
	And I wish there was an easier way.
	I wish that we could all hurl money at Ron Paul and wake up free.
	But I just think that this is a battle of blood and inches.
	And I wish there was an easier way.
	And I'm always open and I'm always thinking, oh man, is there an easier way?
	But I just don't know that there is one.
	Yeah. I just wanted to just express my admiration.
	And I also do get the sense that you have some compassion for what's going on with those around you.
	I think that's a useful thing to have.
	But I would not open my heart up with people until they start showing some real genuine curiosity and empathy, because I think it's just going to make it that much harder.
	And I agree. And I posted like a first half of a big thought process I did in the reintroduced myself part of the form.
	Because when I first did it, I'm like, I'm a Mormon.
	Here's why. I'll defend it.
	And so I reintroduced myself.
	Oh, yeah. I saw that post today.
	This is you. Okay. Okay, good.
	I'll post that in the chat room if you don't mind.
	Maybe I'll call you up about the childhood stuff I talked about sometime and we can go into that more because I think that really...
	Anything that I can do to help, you know, just let me know.
	It could be a totally private one if you like, but anything I can do to help, I mean, I just really do sympathize with what you're doing and I really do admire for your commitment to reason.
	It's a beautiful thing. All right, great.
	Yeah, I'd probably do now, but I'm fried brain-wise.
	I gotta refresh, you know, so I'll definitely call you up again and again, thank you very much and best of health to your wife and kid and all that good stuff.
	Thanks so much. All the best, my friend.
	Bye. Somebody said, can I talk about the possibilities of an iPhone app?
	A fellow did offer to buy an iPhone license, although he didn't have a developer, and I don't know how to develop for the iPhone, so I'm very happy to do that.
	Lulu is allowing books to be released to an iPhone, and I would be interested in that, but I think you can only sell those.
	You can't give those away, because you have to give your pound of flesh to Lulu, which is perfectly fair.
	So, if anybody wants to develop an iPhone app, it's not something I'll be able to do, but I'm certainly happy to lend whatever thoughts and expertise.
	Somebody's asked, can you recommend any books on dream interpretations?
	Why, yes I can! Freud's On the Interpretation of Dreams is a great place to start.
	I would pick up the collected works of C.G. Jung, one of the smaller volumes, because the man made me look concise.
	And he's got a lot of great stuff on dream interpretation.
	But I found that, you know, start with the master.
	I think that on the interpretation of dreams by Freud is fantastic.
	Of course, it doesn't matter whether you agree with his interpretations or mine or anybody's.
	The important thing is that I think you take dreams seriously and try to figure out what it is that they're trying to say.
	I just had this amazing dream the other night that I... Must have spent an hour going over trying to figure out what it was all about.
	It really is an amazing and eye-opening thing to see.
	Whatever it is that you read that makes you take dreams seriously, I would recommend.
	But I would start. True.
	Somebody's asked, how scientific are they?
	I would not say that they're scientific.
	I would say that it is more like an art, for sure.
	It is not scientific.
	There is some science that has come to light that is fully supporting the value of looking at dreams as some very, very important aspects of mental activity, that they are ways of rehearsing and analyzing and processing and creating faster responses to things in your life that may be muddy or unclear.
	I think Nova had a series you may be able to find.
	I think it was posted on the message board, if anyone can dig it up and post it in the chat room.
	Somebody posted a I think it was a two-part series on the science of dreams.
	And it really does support what it is that we've been talking about here for these many years.
	And it goes all the way back to supporting what Freud was talking about.
	So I would strongly recommend that...
	Oh, somebody has posted it on the message board.
	At least I think that's the one that was posted.
	Let me just double-check. And...
	Yeah.
	PBS Nova. PBS.org forward slash WGBH forward slash Nova forward slash dreams.
	And I would check that out for sure.
	I would be meaning to interview this guy, so I might try and give him a shout.
	I don't think that the actual act of interpreting dreams is a scientific pursuit at all, but I think the value of dreams is being scientifically recognized, and it is definitely more of an art.
	Somebody's asked, what does it mean when you have dreams of beating up your parents?
	Well, I would go out on a limb and say, That you might have some anger at your parents.
	Or you may have a sort of wounded pride if you had experienced aggression from your parents, then it might be coming out in dreams.
	So that would be the first place that I would start.
	What if you don't remember any dreams for years?
	There are ways of remembering your dreams, which is that you can set your alarm clock, figure out when you're in your deep REM cycle or when you're in your dream phase, and you can look up on the web on how to achieve that, and you can program your clock or something to wake you up, and then you can just write down whatever you were dreaming about.
	People are talking about Dickens.
	I really like, my favorite is Great Expectations.
	What does it mean when you have dreams of being inside a prison?
	Again, I don't know, but the first place that I would look is the degree to which you feel constrained in your life.
	A prison is often a metaphor for a lack of capacity for honesty, or a prison in a sense is even more of a metaphor of where you get put when you are honest.
	So if you feel that you can't be honest with those around you without being punished or attacked or rejected, then it may feel like a prison and that's why you might be dreaming about that.
	But that would be, again, why would I would look at that.
	Somebody asked why I interviewed Dean Baker, a statist.
	Well, he's not the first statist that I have interviewed.
	And if I were to only interview anarchists, I would not have very many people to talk to at all.
	I interviewed Dean Baker because I thought he had a fantastic idea and some very great proof for it.
	And I certainly did reject his idea in the show.
	I specifically rejected his idea that we should get yet another government program to deal with intellectual property.
	But I interviewed him as a statist in the same way that I go to my dentist, who is a statist, in that there's a specific skill set that I think is very important and useful.
	And we don't have to agree on everything to have a useful conversation about some things.
	And of course, I mean, I spent the first couple of years of Free Domain Radio largely interviewing mostly people who were on the same side of the fence.
	Some people who were a bit dissimilar in ethics, but I was on shows with people like Mark Stevens or Michael Bednarik where there was much more agreement than disagreement.
	But I think it's okay to speak with people who I disagree with.
	If they ask me about what my opinions are, then I will absolutely tell them what it is that...
	That I believe, but really the important thing is to try and figure out and get out the useful stuff I think that they have to say.
	So I think that's useful.
	Somebody says, what is your interpretation of lucid dreaming?
	Why are some dreams so vivid?
	I don't know. I have no idea what the science is behind it, but I know that when I was going through therapy and through my massive personal crisis of individuation for about a year and a half, and we're closer to two years, I had some amazingly lucid and fantastic dreams.
	And it happened because I was an extremity of re-patterning my brain.
	I was an extremity of reprogramming my brain.
	And I think that just uncorks a whole lot of vividness, if that makes any sense.
	Do I have any tips on finding a good therapist?
	Yeah. Somebody has just posted this.
	You want to go to alicemiller.com.
	There's an FAQ where she has on how to find a good therapist that I think is very good.
	I think that...
	You just need to trust your instincts and you need to make sure that you speak with someone that you're enthusiastic to go and see, that you feel that you can be honest and open about what is happening in your mind and in your heart without being negatively judged or critiqued.
	But the person is going to be side by side with you, hacking your way through the jungle towards authenticity or individuation, the true self, whatever you want to call it.
	So I would definitely work with that.
	And it's okay if your therapist disagrees with you about stuff that is not material to therapy.
	So if your therapist is a statist, who cares?
	Because you don't have to be an anarchist to be a good dentist.
	And you don't necessarily have to be an anarchist to be a good therapist.
	I think it's generally better to have correct opinions in all areas of life as possible.
	I would definitely work with your instincts and just see if you feel comfortable talking to that person on the phone, if you feel enthusiastic, if you feel that when you're talking with him or her that he or she can process and empathize with and help you with what you are working with.
	I think really trust your instincts.
	If you feel like the person is not a good therapist, then Say to that person, I don't feel that the therapy is working for me, and see how you feel with the response.
	Alright, we have time for another question.
	If we have another question.
	Somebody's asked, have I ever thought of making a movie like Zeitgeist, where you destroy the state, fiat system, religion, and put forward a libertarian society as a solution?
	I absolutely have thought of that.
	I have made some significant notes for how to achieve freedom as a documentary.
	But it's not something I would be able to do for the next year at least.
	I think it's possible, you know, when my daughter gets older, she may go into preschool and then I may have some more time to work.
	But right now my work is like either late at night or in concentrated bursts if and when she naps during the day.
	So I think that's an important thing.
	Yeah, you know, but I would caution you As I want to do.
	Listen, I've gone through so many times.
	I've gone through, I'm going to do what is successful to someone else, and then it's going to be successful for me.
	And either I'm hugely incompetent, which I don't think is the case, but it's a possibility.
	But maybe I'm hugely incompetent.
	But, you know, the one thing that I really got out of the Zeitgeist folks is that, I mean, they're a bunch of really...
	I don't know about all of them, obviously, right?
	But the Zeitgeist addendum review, which was actually quite complementary towards the movie.
	I talked about some of the stuff that I thought was good in it.
	But I definitely critiqued.
	I mean, it is frustrating to me that somebody would write a lot about economics or, I guess, make a movie focusing on economics without having even read something as basic as Henry Hazlitt's Economics in one lesson, which goes through all of the fallacies that are constantly repeated in all this sort of propaganda.
	And I have to call it propaganda, because if you're mouthing off opinions, I think somebody had a quote from Murray Rothbard, which says, it's no crime to be ignorant of economics.
	Of course, it's a disciplined and specialized field.
	It is, however, a crime to pretend to have knowledge which you do not have.
	And I think that's quite true.
	And it does frustrate me.
	That somebody would talk a lot about the free market without having talked to a single free market economist, clearly, without having read any of the basic introductory layperson view of economics and would make all of the same fundamental mistakes that every other person who is running an agenda does.
	And I found that to be bad, really bad.
	And that I think is important because it shows a lack of humility and curiosity about a field that you claim to be knowledgeable about.
	And when you get the basics wrong, I mean fundamentally completely wrong about economics, then while putting out a movie about how to save the world through economics, I think that's highly irresponsible and quite destructive.
	So I did point out some things that I thought the examination of the fiat system was good.
	I'm, you know, the stuff that they talked about with Jesus, there's a skeptic magazine article that seems to debunk it quite a lot.
	But, you know, as an atheist, to me, it's like arguing whether orcs or elves can do better high jumps.
	Like, I just don't really care about it.
	I mean, when you don't believe in any of it, you know, whether Jesus was this myth or that myth or whether, you know, this means this or, I mean, you just, who cares, right?
	When you don't believe any of it, then there's no point examining.
	It, right? It just doesn't make any sense.
	It's kind of a silly thing to do.
	So when I put out the Zeitgeist Addendum Review, I mean, there was a lot that was positive, there was a lot that I felt I couldn't comment on, and there was some stuff that I was pretty frustrated that was just so egregiously wrong that I thought it was really irresponsible and lazy.
	And I thought my critique was, you know, I didn't call anybody any swear words or anything.
	But holy crap, I mean, the responses that came back from the Zeitgeist fanboys, I mean, it's the only video where I've ever shut down the comments because I got really disgusted by the amount of, you know, vicious profanity-laced vitriol that came pouring down on that review.
	I mean, it was just a concerted, verbally abusive series of attacks.
	And I can guarantee you, That although, you know, Zeitgeist has done well, I guess in terms of lots of downloads and so on, it's done well because it attracts, not exclusively of course, but it seems to attract a lot of these kinds of really angry people who just, when questioned or criticized, uncork torrents of vitriolic verbal abuse on someone rather than responding to an argument or whatever, right?
	And so I can guarantee you that those kinds of people who Our big fans of the Zeitgeist and the Venus Project will be, let's just say, not very receptive to something that I would come out with for sure.
	I think it's important to understand that you don't say, well, Zeitgeist did well, so let's do a film and we'll get the same response.
	I don't think that's rational based upon my experience and interpretation of what is occurring.
	Do I know about the iPhone incompatibility with the forums?
	The only thing I know, and sorry about all this technical stuff, the only thing, I have an iPod Touch which I access the forums with sometimes over Wi-Fi, and I have found that it works just fine, except that you have to switch to HTML when you want to respond to a post.
	All right. I'm just ignoring some questions that I've answered a whole bunch of times before.
	Is there anything else that people wanted to mention or bring up before we close down the first show of the new decade?
	One question I've always had.
	Let's suppose the majority of US citizens decide anarchy is better than government.
	How do you suggest this transition take place?
	I've been having several conversations.
	How do I suggest this transition take place?
	Well, I mean, I think the accumulation that I've always had is that we get a free society by treating our children better.
	We get a better society by loving our children more.
	Society is corrupt and hierarchical because people are harmed and bullied and abused as children.
	Not everyone, but enough people that that is the default position If you want to see the war on kids, you will see the degree to which society is afraid of and wants to dominate and control children.
	And until we love our children to the point where we're even willing to give up our own illusions and falsehoods, then we will get a better society.
	So it's not going to be a decision and it's not going to be an argument.
	It's going to be a process of treating children better that makes a free society.
	What is it that's so special about us that makes us receptive to free-domain radio?
	I don't know. I don't know.
	I mean, and this is the very, very first...
	I remember this as if it were yesterday, the very first call-in show we had, I think sometime in 2006, when I was dealing over a laptop trying to make...
	Oh, that one, the talk thing for games.
	I can't even remember what it's called now.
	We're trying to make all of that work and we're having all kinds of problems with it.
	But yeah, it was why us and why not other people?
	And TeamSpeak, yeah, that's right.
	Oh, the problems we have with TeamSpeak and the absolutely wretched audio quality that it produced.
	But I don't know.
	I don't know. It's something that I have made notes on over the years and I have a number of thoughts.
	But I'd like to sort of...
	I'm going to hold off on that.
	I think it'd be something I'd like to sort of put a little bit more time to get organized in my thoughts and perhaps we can have a conference call about it.
	But that was, I mean, I think there are certain things, criteria that we all fit, but I don't know if I would want to be able to, I don't know if I would want to really come up with something right now.
	Let me get my thoughts a little bit more organized and I'll try and, you know, sort that one out.
	Somebody says, sorry, I was tuned out of the show.
	Why did you interview Dean Baker, a statist economist?
	Oh, Mr. Troll, you just keep asking me all these kinds of things.
	But if you asked a question and didn't listen to the answer, I really can't imagine that you'd expect me to repeat it unless you have the social skills of a soap dish.
	Anyway. Let's see.
	If you've got time, too old for kids now, what would you suggest I could do, even in a small way, to nudge things forward?
	I don't know.
	I would have to think about that some more.
	That is a great challenge for sure.
	Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you what will have to happen for the government to fall away.
	What will have to happen...
	And I'm not saying I'm there yet.
	I'm actually getting there closer.
	But I think what will have to happen is that if you've ever had someone in your life who has a kind of one-size-fits-all answer for everything, you know, like no matter what happens, it's the CIA, right? Like, so I think when Michael Bednarik, unfortunately, had to severe...
	It seems like a heart attack, and last I heard he wasn't doing very well, and I certainly hope that he gets better.
	I certainly have enjoyed meeting him and chatting with him, and we have differences of opinion, but the man is certainly a tireless advocate for some of the things that I believe in.
	But I saw it posted, and of course immediately the tinfoil hat people were, it's a heart attack gun that was shot at him by the CIA, right?
	And I mean, to those of us Who don't subscribe to that automatic way of looking at things, that if anything bad happens, the CIA has a death ray gun that they can shoot at people from wherever.
	What happens is, I think, somebody who's not that paranoid, frankly, is going to say, is going to roll their eyes, going to say, oh, come on, you know, the guy had a heart attack, you know, and that's a terrible shame.
	But I don't think we immediately want to leap to the conclusion that the CIA hit him with a heart attack death ray or something like that.
	And when we are at the place in a society where somebody talks about a government program and we respond to it in the same way that we respond to it's a death ray from the CIA, then I think we're going to be really close.
	When we no longer get angry at government programs, when we no longer get angry at status, when we no longer get angry, but we simply roll our eyes, like, ugh, this again.
	Like, when we almost, it's too weary and boring to even respond to, then we will really start to see some change.
	Right, so if you have someone, or if you know somebody who has, I don't know, paranoid explanations, like the Jews.
	The Jews do X, Y, and Z. The Jews control the Zionists.
	Protocols of the elders of whoever, right?
	And anything bad that happens, the Jews are doing.
	At some point, you simply don't want to argue with that person, and I hope that point is sooner rather than later, and you just kind of roll your eyes and it's like, ugh, this again, right?
	I don't even want to talk about it.
	It's just...
	When we get to the point as a society where we look at the government that way, we look at status solutions that way, we look at the use of institutionalized violence to solve complex social problems, That way, where it's just like, you know, when the majority of people are like, oh, it's the equivalent of a CIA death ray and a Jewish conspiracy to rule the world, then we will really start to see some progress.
	And I think when we get bored of the state, when we get uninterested in the state, when we view...
	People proposing status solutions as strange and obsessed and not even worth debating, then we will have outgrown the state.
	And I think that we will have taken a huge step forward towards a free society.
	That's a long way off, right?
	That's a long way off.
	When we view a potential politician like Barack Obama as the equivalent of A mangy street preacher shaking a dusty Bible at a raining sky alone on a corner, then, you know, like, okay, I guess some people are into that, but I'm just going to take a wide step around him and keep moving and not make eye contact when we view that person as, you know, kind of crazy and out there and all that, then we'll be a lot closer.
	But we're really going to have to shift the standards of how children experience authority in order for them to see authority in the world in that way.
	And I think that's...
	That's just going to take time.
	This is a multi-generational project.
	And to think that it's not is to take several steps backwards and to pursue things that simply won't work.
	All right. Well, I think we are winding to a close.
	Here we are. It is 5.58 p.m.
	And I hope that you had a wonderful, wonderful First show, first Sunday show.
	I was looking forward to this all day.
	And I hope you had a wonderful Free Domain Radio Sunday show.
	Thank you again so much for listening, for donating, for supporting, for spreading, and for living the values that we are all exploring here.
	It is an immense privilege to be part of what is going on in the world through this.

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