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Dec. 6, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:04:15
1522 Sunday Show Dec 6 2009

Deconstructing Judaism, how to ask a woman for a date, and dealing with depressing coworkers.

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All right. Well, thank you everybody for joining us.
It is Sunday, December the 6th, 2009, just after 4 p.m.
And I hope you're all doing fantastically wonderfully.
I, of course, have minor, inconsequential, banal, boring updates, which I will completely skip in favor of launching into questions from listeners about anything that's going on on the show this week, last week.
What's going on in your minds?
What's going on on the web? What's going on?
This week it's the spleen.
Anything that is going on in your spleen, you are welcome to share with us in a very, of course, visceral way.
So, if you would like to call in, and you do not have Skype if you're listening in the chatroom, and you would like to call in, and you do not have the Skype, then you can call 315-876- Just let James P. in the chat room know that you're calling so that he can answer it and you can chat.
And I would love to chat with you about anything that is on your mind.
Somebody has asked, have I read The First Idea by Stuart Shankar?
No, I have not. But since I enjoyed my conversation with him so much, I am definitely going to be ordering some of his books.
So... I would very much like to read more of his.
I thought he was a really...
I mean, I think of all the interviews, that's the one I've enjoyed the most.
And of course, I'm not an experienced interviewer at all.
And so for me, it is, you know, it's taking a little bit of time to get used to the rhythm and back and forth.
And also how to keep my questions comprehensible, yet succinct.
So I really did enjoy that conversation most of all.
And it's strange, you know, that...
It was easier to chat with a guy whose philosophy is very different than mine, but whose intellectual, I think, curiosity and politeness are at a similar kind of level versus a person like Brandon, who's supposedly closer in philosophy, but sometimes it takes more than just, I guess, philosophical values or abstract values, but I think some stuff a little bit closer to home to get that kind of connection.
We shall see. Anyway, I've got some more interviews cooking in the pipeline, some very exciting guests, and thank you to everybody who's given me the feedback about how important it is for the success of the show to have less of me.
I've really felt that that has really connected with rage and vanity within me, and I would really like to thank everybody who said less of Steph, more of pretty much anyone else in the shows.
It's a massive leap forward.
Thank you. I'm coming for you.
That's really why I'm asking for people to put their addresses into the Freedom Aid Radio website, and then I can correlate them with those who prefer the interviews to my podcasts.
And, well, we'll talk late at night.
All right, so enough Ramblefest tensions from me.
Unless you all want a parenting update, queue up and fire up with the questions.
The show, my friends, is, as always, yours.
Hi, Steph. Hello.
I have something to say.
Sorry, and I don't mean to be rude, but we've had a couple of chats over the last couple of Sunday shows, so I have no problem going ahead.
I just want to, in case there's anybody shy who is about to talk, who has a yearning burning, just if you could hold off.
And if nobody does, then we'll go ahead with that, and I certainly would enjoy that.
But I just want to see if there was anyone else who may have anything to ask before we plunge into that, if that's okay.
Yeah, sure. Alright, you can type questions in the chat room.
You can use smoke signals, carrier pigeons, or telephone, or Skype.
Or mime with mind reading.
It's another option that we're still working on.
But I think a little more bandwidth for that.
Hello, Steph. Hello.
Hi. Can you hear me?
I sure can. My name is Gilad, I'm from Israel.
I've been listening for about a year, year and a half to your podcast, and I have like hundreds of questions, but I'm not really sure what you prefer to talk.
Oh, it's your preference, my friend, whatever you want to talk about, I'm certainly happy to listen to it.
Alright, so I guess one of the most stressing issues, at least right now, is the issue of identity, which suffered very much as a consequence of listening to the podcast.
Oh dear. Oh dear, I'm sorry about that, but please go on.
It's not really your fault.
I mean, it was shaking much time before I started listening to the podcast.
But, I mean, I discovered you at a rather advanced age, let's say.
I'm 31 now.
I'm sorry, how old? 31.
31. Okay, good. That's not that advanced.
But go on. 31 and after three years in the army and all the Israeli propaganda you can suffer.
And Jewish propaganda also.
After three years in the army and all the Israeli propaganda.
I hear a feedback of myself.
Yeah, you just might want to put headphones on or mute your speakers while you're talking, because otherwise it will feed back into your microphone again.
Yeah, I can see...
And sorry, you said Jewish propaganda.
Are you Jewish? Oh, you asked something?
Yeah, sorry, you said the Jewish propaganda.
Are you Jewish yourself?
Are you Jewish yourself? Yeah, I'm Jewish.
I mean, secular Jewish, but I went through the process.
I have a grandmother, which is a Holocaust survivor.
Yeah, I'm Jewish.
And when I grew up, being virtuous, as part of being virtuous was to go to the army if you were healthy and if you can't do it.
And when I grew up...
Up until I heard your podcast, I didn't think there was a problem with it, let's say.
Right. Now, in Israel, though, you have to go.
It's mandatory, right?
Yeah, it's mandatory, but not everyone goes to the military and not everyone goes to combat military.
You have to be motivated to go there.
Yeah, it's mandatory, but not everyone goes to the military and not everyone goes to combat military.
Wait a second, I have to bring an ad set.
I can't stand the feedback.
Okay, no problem. I mean, just for those who don't know, I mean, obviously, Israel is a fairly martial culture surrounded by enemies of many hundreds of years, the Muslims and the Arabs.
And I think almost since the foundation of the country in 1949, there has been a two or three year mandatory service to the state in the form of military, or as this gentleman said, you can do other things other than the military.
I certainly don't know exactly what those things are, but you can do other things than go straight into combat.
But certainly after the Holocaust, there was this feeling that Judaism was a little bit too intellectual and not quite muscular and well-armed enough.
And so there's been a swing.
And you can see some of this, of course, coming out of the Picoff camp and objectivism, there's been a swing towards, you know, Jews with guns rather than Jews with Torahs and prayer beads and clasped fingers and hopes, which, of course, did not work too well against the Nazis.
So there's been a sort of new martial ethic that's come into Judaism.
Judaism, which was certainly there before, during the wars against the Muslims in the Middle Ages, but had sort of died away when Jews became a minority after the scattering in the diaspora.
After the Jews became a minority, the martial spirit sort of died away because they were a minority and they weren't allowed to own land and they weren't allowed to own other things.
And so Jews throughout history have tended to move into intellectual fields because they're Restricted from land ownership and they're restricted from other kinds of service within the community.
And so as a minority who were involved in banking and jewelry and other things, which you can become fairly wealthy at without actually owning land, as a minority in those kinds of arts, they lost a lot of the martial practice, right?
They funded war, so to speak, which is not to say being responsible for them, rather than participated in them.
But that's changed since the Holocaust and now, you know, the tough nut...
Jews are much more interested in being sort of well-armed.
And of course, now that they have a state, it's really important for the state to have people who are willing to pick up guns.
So, are you back?
I just wanted to sort of put that filler in.
And tell me if that's completely out of whack with what you understand, but that's sort of my understanding of it.
Yes, you know, you make it very short, but You're quite right.
To tell you the truth, I never wanted to participate in war or never bought into the machoistic part of being in an army, but it was a sort of pride to be in the first Jewish army.
And as a small child, my grandmother, which saw the entire family being murdered in the Nazi death camps, you know, as a small child, I had no other way to process it other than, you know, I have to make sure that this thing will never happen again.
And as a part of this line of reasoning, it sounds very logical to go to the army and to do your best to not let it happen again.
And you get more propaganda in the public schools and from the media and so forth.
All your culture heroes are some kind of military type people, at least when I was growing up.
Up until two years ago, I still served in the reserve army.
After you finish the mandatory service, you have to do reserve.
Which is something like one month every year.
Right. More or less.
And I had to go through a psychiatrist in order to get myself out of this mess.
But right now, the more constructive thing that I wanted to consult you in is what suggestions can you make To a person that wants to,
I don't know what's the correct word to use, but maybe rebuild a more healthy identity that is not based on violence or revenge fantasies or, I don't know, things like this.
Right. That's a fantastic question.
That's a fantastic question.
Well, let me ask you this, because I don't want to give you a speech, because Lord knows there are enough of those, right?
But let me ask you this.
Who do you think you might have been if you'd have grown up without a tribe, without a country, without a god, without a The burdens of history, the 5,000 years of fleeing and being hunted.
If you had grown up 200 years from now, when there was no such thing as religion and no such thing as what we now call culture, no such thing as countries, who do you think you would be without those inherited irrationalities?
Of culture and religion and country and all that.
Well, that's a little tricky question.
It's a what-if question.
And, you know, I can fantasize on it, but I'm not really sure because I got 30 years of this kind of education and propaganda and what have you.
And, you know, if I was grown up in a Muslim country, I will probably be a Muslim and will hate Jews and America and whatever.
Sure. And if I was brought up in a stateless society, in a peace-loving, rational society, I would be all deaf and will have no problem with it.
But unfortunately, that's not the case.
Oh, I know it's not the case.
I know, but this is the mental exercise, right?
Because I believe that identity is ourselves, like our true selves, which means our empirical selves, the selves which have never succumbed to propaganda, which we all have to some degree or another, because propaganda...
It doesn't move a single rock in the desert.
It doesn't cause a single drop of rain to fall.
But we need to interact with material, tangible reality in order to survive.
So we always have to maintain some part of us that keeps a distance from propaganda.
Because if we don't, we're actually insane.
Like, we're mentally ill. We have to reject propaganda to some degree just to survive as individuals.
You know, that's why Christians don't pray for dinner, they go to the grocery store, or whatever, just to take any metaphor, right?
If you're thirsty, you don't ask an angel to bring you water, you go to the fridge and get a drink, right?
So there is a part of us, and it's a pretty solid part of us, that resists and is immune to propaganda.
Because if propaganda within a culture...
Gets too strong, then people are so mentally unhinged that they simply can't survive.
They destroy themselves.
They destroy others. Those societies where propaganda overwhelms the individual self-destruct.
And you can see lots of those throughout history.
So you were able to find your way through the maze of propaganda to get to philosophy, to get to reality, to get to a methodology for the truth.
Which means that there's a part of you That never believed the propaganda.
And of course propaganda is inflicted.
It's not instructed.
Propaganda is inflicted.
Like if you don't believe in your Jewish identity or the innate virtue of Israel or the badness of Israel's enemies or whatever, right?
Then you simply get attacked for being, you know, a bad person, right?
I mean there are some significant extremes within the Jewish community of this Kind of thing.
I knew a woman who was questioning her desire to have children and was told in no uncertain terms by her Jewish elders that if she didn't have children, she was continuing the work of Hitler, which is a pretty awful thing to say to anybody.
And so it's inflicted.
It's aggressive. It's nasty.
And there's a part of us that always holds ourselves aloft from that, because if we don't, we're mentally ill.
We go crazy. And so if you can connect with that part of you that never believed the propaganda and say, well, what if that part of me was all of me or most of me?
Then I think that ideal humanity is self plus reality plus aspiration, right?
Who we are plus interacting with reality and ideals, something we work towards, something we have an aspiration towards.
I think that is the ideal life and I think that's part of all of us.
So if you didn't have these bricks of history falling forever on your forehead, and part of you has never accepted that, I would say, what would it be like to be you?
Yeah, that's a really strong idea, what you just said.
You know, there's a problem because the process is ongoing.
I mean, I always felt That this couldn't be true.
All the things that everyone around is telling me.
But it's not just...
It's very secular.
My father doesn't believe in gods or unicorns or whatever.
My mother also doesn't think about these issues.
But the question of virtue, I mean, even among rational people, or even philosophy-interested people, I can't bring those kind of issues.
I mean, only on a theoretical level.
But there's no question here about the necessity of the State of Israel or the inherent value and things like this.
I can't even imagine a different Gilad, an ideal Gilad with complete integrity.
On these issues.
Still living in Israel.
If I make myself.
I don't know if I make sense.
No, I think you do. I think you do.
Now, first of all, of course, there is a very strong Jewish tradition of anarchism.
This is not new.
So, within the Jewish tradition, and Chomsky talks about this, Noam Chomsky talks about this quite a bit, he considers himself, I think, a left-leaning anarchist or libertarian, but there is a very strong tradition of anarchist thinking within the Jewish history of thought.
The problem, of course, is that one of the reasons that there was a strong tradition of anarchism was because the Jews were ground down by the governments, right, by the Christian and the Muslim governments.
And so they said, we hate the government, right?
We hate the government, because the government's grinding us down.
Now that the Jews have a government, you don't hear so much about Jewish anarchism, because now they've got the gun, so suddenly the gun's gone.
There is, there is.
The settlers are against the state right now, because they feel they are not Jewish enough.
This is the kind of anarchic tendencies.
If you like. It's always to be more extremist in a totalitarian standpoint.
Let me ask you another question, if you don't mind, because I'd love to talk theories all day, as you know, but I wanted to ask you something a little bit more personal, if that's alright.
Okay. What would it cost you, if anything, if you...
Embraced philosophy rather than culture or religion or collective identities of whatever kind.
Do you think that your friends and your family and the people that you know, would they accept your desire for that kind of empiricism and honesty and authenticity?
Or do you think there would be large if not insurmountable problems with that?
As I said, I'm 31.
I have a little experience in trying to initiate conversations about philosophy in my immediate circles and even in university.
You know, I can talk only theories.
When I try to make it more concrete, when I try to even hint that there is immorality inherent to our line of thinking, I always get rejected and attacked.
This is even a better thing to me.
For example, my parents, I don't even think that they are capable to talk about abstract philosophy theories, let alone to make them concrete examples about it, that derive from theories.
Right. Now, I guess I have another question too.
So it would be a big problem because people really can't.
They can process things in the abstract, but when you apply it to something tangible in their lives, it becomes a problem.
But if your parents are secular Jews, then would they at least recognize that, I mean, of course, the reason why Israel is where it is is because of religion, right?
Because obviously the Palestinians have nothing to do With the Holocaust, right?
I mean, the Palestinians who were living where Israel is now had nothing to do with the Holocaust, right?
The Germans, the German leadership and so on.
And there were other countries who offered up land.
I think Switzerland was one.
I think that Brazil was another after the Second World War saying, listen, we recognize that the Jews need a state.
Let's go to Brazil. Let's open up a canton in Switzerland, which would have not It's been as inflammatory as going right in the middle of all of the historical enemies of Judaism and creating this armed camp in the middle of historical enemies.
This is neither here nor there, because wishing won't make it so, but it would seem to me that even if you were a secular Jew, you'd say, well, having a state makes sense because of the Holocaust.
But the location of the state is a really bad idea.
Where the government has been set up, where the country has been set up, is a really bad idea.
Is that part of the conversation at all that occurs within...
Obviously, Israel is not going to move to Switzerland or Brazil or anything.
But I think it would be somewhat conciliatory towards the people who lost their homes to say, well, unfortunately it was religious fundamentalism, which as secular Jews we don't particularly believe, that caused the location here, which may be something we can work out with more conciliation than is currently occurring.
Yes, there is, but there is that kind of talk, but it is more like a kind of joke.
I mean, like, why did they have to bring us here?
Why couldn't they choose a better place with better weather without a million of bloodthirsty Muslims all around?
It's more like a joke, but, you know, if you talk about it seriously, it's like it's water under the bridge.
We're here now, and we have to do whatever we can do in order to defend our home.
Yeah, I don't think I've ever heard a Jew say about the Holocaust, it's water under the bridge.
So it seems a bit of a double standard, not to equate the two, of course, right?
But you kind of don't want to say, well, some stuff is just in the past and we forget about it, while other stuff isn't.
I think you kind of want to have one philosophy around that, but that may be neither here.
So it's kind of like, can you believe this is the place we picked kind of thing, right?
Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, if you try to make this, you know, they will tell you what's the use in talking about this issue.
They chose what they choose.
There are lots of historical reasons.
No one wanted to go to another place in Europe, you know, after what Europe gave us.
And the Jewish people wanted to come back here.
They tell me, if you don't like it, go wherever you want.
But if you're here, you have to do your share to defend this place.
Right. Well, you know, it is a very, very tough question that you're raising around identity.
I mean, the Jewish identity obviously is one of the strongest and most embedded In history, right?
I mean, survived quite a lot, you know.
And so, you know, when you talk to somebody who's Jewish and you talk about philosophy, which is, of course, a rejection of culture and historical prejudices and chosen people and all this sort of stuff, it is a real challenge.
I mean, of all of the identities in the world to question, I think that Judaism is one of the toughest, if that makes any sense, because there is, I mean, such a lengthy history.
There's such a lot of cultural pressure.
And, of course, there have been innumerable, numberless crimes, unjust crimes committed against the Jewish people, which, of course, creates that sense that, well, if I question this as a very identity, then what were all those, what was all that suffering for if it then what were all those, what was all that suffering for if it was And of course, in a philosophical sense, Judaism is not real.
In a philosophical sense, Christianity, Americanism, Israel, they're not fundamentally...
They don't exist. They're not real.
And so, I mean, my heart goes out to you because of all of the identities in the world.
Being a Jewish guy who lives in Israel, whose family is very pro-Israel, I think...
I think it is one of the toughest challenges to look at that through the lens of philosophy, or rather to take off the lens of everything else and look at it with the clear eyes of philosophy.
I mean, I just wanted to express my sympathy.
It's just a huge challenge for you to face.
Yeah. You know that according to Jewish tradition, you're also Jewish.
I know. I know that.
I really do. I really do.
I really do. I really do.
That's why I've avoided saying we.
But I'm telling you, and I tell you this without having faced nearly the same pressures as you.
I'm telling you that I don't miss the absence of that identity at all.
Yeah, I mean, I didn't expect even some kind of answer that will help me to do it, but if you can recommend something about reading about philosophy and identity, I would be glad to hear it.
Sorry, you said, I just missed a word you said.
You said recommend something about philosophy, something and identity?
Yeah, something, books or reading material about philosophy of identity.
Yeah, well, tell me what you mean by the word identity, because it can mean either your true self or it can mean the conformist identity.
What is it that you want to explore?
I want to explore true self.
Right. Right.
Right. Well, I'm going to give you an annoying pseudo-Jewish metaphor.
Because, you know, our people must always speak in parables, don't you know?
Anyway. I'll give you a, you know, there's an old story about Michelangelo, right?
Which is... He carved a beautiful lion, and people say, how did you carve such a beautiful lion from such a big block of marble?
And he said, well, it's pretty easy, actually.
You look at the marble, and you chip away everything that's not a lion.
So you've got a lion, you've got all these bits of broken marble on the floor, right?
But identity, we start off as a lion, and then we put in this big box of Culture and identity and country and religion and all this and conformity to age-old nonsense.
And when it comes to our true self, I think we use philosophy as the hammer and the chisel.
We start with this big block of conformity, collective, quote, identity.
And you just chip away at it.
And you chip away at everything that is not based on reason and evidence.
And what's left is the beautiful and the original lion.
That we started with.
But you have to look within yourself and say, this belief that I have, is it true or is it false?
Is there evidence for it or is there no evidence for it?
Is it rational or is it irrational or is it anti-rational?
And my whole process, and Lord knows I don't think I'll ever be done, but my whole process has been to...
I feel like somebody standing in a...
You know, like an assembly line, there's somebody who checks every candy bar to make sure it's okay, you know, that it's not melted or it's not in a funny shape or whatever.
I feel like philosophy is standing in front of this conveyor belt and my thoughts, my prejudices, my beliefs, my illusions, my preferences, everything just comes past and it goes through this light of philosophy and most of it I pick off and discard and it's hard.
But what comes through is the assemblage of the true lion of my original self.
So it's either chipping away or discarding the things that just aren't true.
That just aren't true.
No matter how much people get mad at me for saying that they're not true, they're not true.
And people get mad at me or they can get mad at you, but it's not my fault and it's not your fault that these things aren't true.
So, it's just a matter of...
And you can do this within your own mind, within your own heart.
You are not dependent upon anybody else to accept the truth, for you to accept the truth.
Because what we always do, we're conditioned to do this, and it's not just propaganda, it's part of our nature, is we say, I don't think this is true, what do you think?
I don't believe this is true, what do you think?
And that is...
I think both a healthy and a not healthy part of ourself.
I mean, it's good when we come up with a crazy idea to check with other people sometimes, but not to depend upon other people to validate it.
So I would do this within my own mind, within my own heart.
If you look to validate your ideas or your insights or your new knowledge, if you look to validate it with other people, you will forever be bouncing like a little silver A pinball in a pinball machine.
You'll forever be bouncing upon people's reactions to the truth.
I think the best way to achieve who we really are is to sort of sit and simmer ourselves in that which is true until we have gone over it so many times that we have achieved a kind of certainty.
And then what we do is we lead people.
We don't consult with them.
We lead them to the truth.
We don't ask them to participate in the truth because most people react very negatively.
But we absorb, we reflect, we read, we think, we speak with those few trusted people who give us good feedback, honest feedback.
And then when we have become who we are, who we really are, then we don't ask people to join us in the truth.
We lead them through certainty.
Through our own certainty to the truth.
We don't consult them. Because they don't know what they're talking about.
Most people have no idea what the truth is, other than it makes them angry.
That's the only thing that they know about the truth, that it pisses them off.
That's the only thing. That's why I use the pinball thing, because the pinball goes up against those bumpers and those bumpers...
See, I can use this metaphor because you're over 30, right?
The bumper is pushed back, right?
That's the only way the ball knows it hits something is it gets pushed back really violently.
That's truth, right? The truth gets pushed back and hammered back and punched back and kicked.
So I think you have to be certain enough in yourself that those kicks don't hurt you that much, that those kicks don't push you over, don't push you down, don't send you right back to square one.
And, of course, it seems to me entirely evident that you have that moral courage and desire for certainty because, as you say, you consulted with a psychiatrist.
To get out of these military obligations.
I mean, dear God, man, that's incredibly brave.
That is incredibly noble.
And I don't know if you have kids or if you're going to have kids, but I think that's something to be very proud of.
Because in the future, that will be viewed, I think, as a heroic action.
Whereas, of course, in the present, I don't know how many sort of metaphorical white feathers you're being handed, but it is not sometimes seen that way.
So... I know that's not a hugely great or useful answer, but that's sort of what came to me off the top of my head.
Yeah, that really makes sense.
I want to thank you very much for it.
And I also have a small question.
I posted on the board whether you're intending to speaking or perhaps interviewing Noam Chomsky.
I think it would be very, very interesting to hear a talk between you two.
I think it would be very interesting.
I'm trying not to celebrity grab.
In other words, it's like, well, this is a big guy, so I'll try and talk to him.
I'm sure I could find a way to talk to him.
I won't even play the J card, but I'll find some way to talk to him.
I want to make sure that I don't sort of say...
Well, this is an important person to talk to and then think of what I actually want to ask him.
I have to sort of think about what do I really want to ask him.
So the people that I've interviewed before, I know what I want to ask them.
But I don't have a big load of questions to ask Noam Chomsky.
But that having been said, there are certainly some questions that I would love to ask him around ethics because I think he's absolutely brilliant when it comes to...
The dissection of US foreign policy with regards to ethics and the universalization of ethics.
He's consistently saying what I call universally preferable behavior.
He's consistently extrapolating America's principles in foreign policy and saying, well, if this is justified for us, why is it not justified for other people?
And of course, his analysis of 9-11, in that sense, I thought was just brilliant.
So I would really like to ask him questions around these simple ethics that he explains so beautifully and why it is that people are just so resistant to seeing these basic facts.
Those questions, I think, would be interesting to ask, but that's not a very long interview, so I'd like to figure out if there are more questions I'd like to ask him.
Maybe it's interesting how such a genius powerhouse of knowledge could be left Leftists with such very, very anti-state views and anti-state reasoning would lead to a socialist line of thinking.
That's maybe what interests me the most about him.
Right, right. It's always struck me that people like Noam Chomsky, and I could be wrong, of course, about this, but, you know, in fairy tales...
There is the evil stepmother, right?
Like the original mother is gone and there's this evil stepmother.
Now, of course, psychologically we know that that is the mother.
It's just that the child can't accept the cruelty and so imagine that there's a real loving mother out there somewhere, but the mother that I actually have is not my real mother.
She's like a bad, you know, evil witch mother.
She's a nasty stepmother.
She's not my real mother. My real mother died and is up there in heaven and is weeping about how I'm treated and so on.
So there's this split. Like the bad mother and the good mother.
And I always sort of feel that way about people who are particularly on the left, who criticize the state and say, well, the state is really bad.
That's the evil stepmother. But then they have this other state, the good stepmother in heaven that they can summon when they need to, when they get power, when they get rid of the bad state.
They have this glowing angel of goodness that can inhabit The halls of political power that won't do any of the bad things that they're currently criticizing and I think that's the same kind of split.
Like you have the good mother, bad mother and fairy tales and you have the good state, bad state in most people's approach to solving problems using the government and it is completely deranged of course but it seems to be very compelling for people.
Yeah, just interested if Chomsky is one of those fantasy stepmother.
I think it's much more complicated than the one that can be reduced to this kind of psychological phenomena.
Right, like it's, I don't know if you read, Michael Moore published a letter before Barack Obama came out with this 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan.
And it was like a kid pleading, you know, to daddy, please be nice.
You know, he was such a nice daddy.
We want the nice daddy back.
We don't want this nasty daddy who's using it.
We want the nice daddy back who gave those great speeches and was so charismatic and it was so fun.
And we don't want this nasty guy.
We want the old guy back.
And it's like, it's the same guy.
You know, it's the fucking guy.
Anyway. Sure.
All right, so thank you, Steph.
It was very helpful.
Keep up the good work.
Thank you. And listen, if you ever get a chance, whether you want to send it to me or post it on the board, I would really love to hear a little bit more about the steps that you took to get out of this engagement with the military.
I just think that's, I mean, I'm on my knees before you as far as the honor that goes and the courage that that took.
I think that's amazing.
So if you ever wanted to share that story, Or talk about it in a podcast.
I would love to hear more. All right.
All right. Thanks, man. Take care.
Thanks. You know, there's more courage than I think I'll ever be called on to display in my life.
So I just feel enormously humbled by the courage of most of my listeners.
You know, I'm up here in the red room yammering away.
And, of course, the courage that people are actually taking out there in terms of...
Living the values of non-violence and so on and non-participation and the particularly corrupt and egregious aspects of state power.
I mean, it's completely humbling to the point where, you know, whatever courage I have to face, like, ooh, somebody typed something bad about me.
I mean, that's nothing. That's nothing.
It's a pitiful, pitiful obstacle compared to what some people out there are facing and overcoming, which is unbelievably impressive.
And I just... I'd like to thank everybody out there who's doing that for the example, which is showing to myself and to other people.
So, thank you, thank you, thank you.
All right. The Divine Miss H, if you could just hold on in case anybody else has a yearning-burning.
Otherwise, we'll continue.
So, if anybody else has a question or a comment.
I do have a burning.
You do? Is it when you pee, or...?
I had to make that joke, but yeah, I do have a dream interpretation, and I know you did this twice, like two weeks ago, and I don't know if these things exhaust you.
Is it about your dating?
I think it could be.
Do you want to just talk about the dating?
Well, we could, although...
The dream may actually have a lot to do with that.
Okay, let's talk about the dream, but I also wanted to mention that my suggestion, because I think I heard this secondhand, it probably is not true, but my suggestion that if you use as your opening line when introducing yourself to a girl, I have a burning, that's not, I think, a recommended thing to do.
But anyway, let's get to your dream.
Okay, so the dream is...
Very short. It actually was a very short dream.
It starts with this little girl.
She's like maybe nine years old and she's with her mother and another woman, I think, at a doctor's office.
And I'm kind of the third person that may be invisible as far as like nobody being able to see me in the dream.
But she was there being treated for something, and I don't know what it was, but when she was treated, she's inadvertently planted with this radio in her stomach.
And I'm watching this girl as an observer in the dream and unable to intervene in any way, so I'm just kind of wondering, well, she was just implanted with a radio.
Didn't anybody notice that?
And it didn't seem like part of the treatment or anything like that.
Like part of the cure or like, here you need this radio.
And this is like a radio. You don't know what she was being treated for, right?
Right. Okay. And so the dream continues.
Nobody seems to notice or care that the girl has what sounds like either classical or elevator-type music playing inside or coming from the radio.
I'm sorry. That's just great.
I mean, that's just fantastic.
What an imaginative dream.
But sorry, go on. So she goes to the doctor's office again on her own, and she walks into the office, and I recall the look on her face.
She looks sick and scared, and I can hear the music playing faintly inside her.
And so she walks up to the counter where the receptionist is, and again, nobody seems to notice the music, and they barely notice the girl.
The receptionist appears kind of irritated that the girl's there again, and she's there by herself, so no parents.
And the piano is next to the, there's a piano next to the receptionist desk, like in the waiting room, which I've never seen that before.
Right, so you listen to Free Domain Radio and she has Abdomain Radio, but anyway, go on.
Right, right.
And so the girl sits down at the piano and starts to play, and apparently she's, she played before, like the last time she was there, and for some reason I know this in the dream, and she played like something very simple like chopsticks.
And then this time when she came in she started playing chopsticks and the reception came out kind of irritated that she was playing again and she tried to stop her from playing but as she continued playing it became more and more complex and the receptionist exclaimed wow you really improved and it was definitely something like by Mozart or something but it was really complex and her playing became more and more intense and I remember in the dream recognizing It was either Mozart or Beethoven.
I don't remember the song.
I couldn't even tell you now what it was.
But it was really intense.
And the speed kept getting faster and faster.
And the chords...
Only Mozart could play this well.
And I noticed the waiting room sort of began to fill up with people like it was an audience.
And the seating became more like a stadium than a waiting room.
And the front desk was like a stage.
And I was still worried then, even then, about the radio playing inside her, wondering if anyone would ever take notice and take it out of her.
And when she finished with this triumphant finale on the piano, the crowd cheered, and then I woke up.
That's great.
It's a great dream.
It's a great fucking dream.
Alright, so let me just run through it again, make sure I've got it, right?
So there's a girl in a doctor's office.
You're kind of invisible. She's with her mom.
She gets treated for something, but what happens is the doctor puts a radio in her stomach.
What kind of radio? Is it like a little portable?
Is it like a beach radio?
It's definitely nothing that's too big not to fit into a nine-year-old's stomach.
So it's like a tiny little radio, whatever, right?
Right. And you can hear it when she comes out, that it's playing, you said, either classical music or muzak or whatever, right?
Right. And then she comes back, and people still can't hear it, and she starts playing piano, she starts playing something simple, it gets more and more complex, and then she ends with this big finale, and you still, nobody seems to hear the radio in her belly, is that right? Right.
What is her attitude or relationship to the audience when she's playing, to the people who are gathering in the doctor's waiting room?
Is she playing for herself and they're listening in, or is she playing to the audience?
I think she's playing...
Oh wow, I think she's playing for, it seemed like she was playing for herself, but...
But you said there was a big finale.
The audience sort of appeared later.
I would think that she was playing for herself and the audience just sort of came in later.
Right. Because they weren't there to begin with, they just appeared and the whole thing transformed into a concert hall, basically.
And what happened for you the day before the dream?
Okay, so that's a little more complex, and I may have to change the names to protect the innocent here.
You can just give me a 20,000 foot summary, because we may not need more detail if I think I can see where it fits, but just give me the real short version, 20,000 feet, and then if I need more details I can ask and we can begin the masquerading dance.
Right. Well, just basically, from 20,000 feet, I've been trying to deal with the feelings I feel when I'm rejected.
And since our last call about Lisa, the hotel manager, who I finally asked out the day after that, since then, I've, despite all the heart-pounding fear that Occurs for me when I'm interested in someone.
There have been four people that I've approached with interest and all three of those rejected me and just sort of were honest right up front.
And one of those three of the four Was someone I was really, really, really interested in because I know that she shares all my values and that there's things we already know.
She's an FDR listener. There's a whole lot more there that I'm really attracted to.
I have a whole lot of admiration for her.
And her honesty and what she's doing with her family, all those things.
And I expressed my interest and she expressed that she wasn't romantically interested.
And I just felt really confused and didn't know exactly what to do with all that.
And so there's that.
And then there's this other fourth person that I met downstairs at the restaurant.
It was just sort of one of those...
I've never done this before, really.
I've always been the one that's approached, like I was saying before.
I saw this girl sitting up with a whole party of people, co-workers of hers.
So I went and sat next to her at the bar area and just sort of listened in to her conversation.
Worked up the courage to say something to her and so I heard her talking about work and how much she liked work and how much she enjoyed her job and what she did and she was just talking to a co-worker about this and then her co-worker said something funny and I laughed and I said,
oh I'm sorry, I can't help but overhear and then I just sort of introduced myself and commented on the way she liked to, the way she ordered a club soda, her accent and You have a nice accent and I have a burning.
Sorry, go on. And then I just said, I have this burning feeling when I pee.
It's called pissing fishhooks.
Do you know anything about it? Wait, that's a different story.
So, I talked to her for about an hour there and naturally, you know, When you talk about just having moved here from Philly, the inevitable conversation of weather always comes up.
If you're coming from a tropical climate like Houston to Philadelphia, it's just like weather shock.
So that conversation came up, and there wasn't much time because she was there with coworkers.
So as she was getting ready to leave, I... Asked her out to coffee and she gave me her card.
And so this was the first semblance of a non-rejection that I've gotten out of these four attempts.
And so her card just had her work email and her work phone number on there.
So I was like, okay, I'm not going to call her while she's busy at work.
And she wasn't like a psychiatrist, right?
No, she works in marketing.
No, that's important because if a psychiatrist gives you their card...
Sorry. Anyway, you think...
Right.
No, that's a different thing.
Okay, so you got the card, right?
I emailed her at work, her work email, and just sort of had my email on there, and I meant to give her my phone number, but I figured I'd just give her that if she responds.
So the Thanksgiving holidays happened, and Monday came, Tuesday came, I never heard back from her.
And so I don't know why.
I actually consulted Greg for feedback on the email I was going to send her before I sent it.
And he said it sounded great, it sounded vulnerable, it sounded nice.
So I sent it. So I know that at least one other person, it can't be what I said.
Or maybe it was.
No, no, no. Look, I guarantee you that it's not what you said.
It's not what you said. I mean, no, it's not that.
I don't know what it is, but let me ask you a question or two before we get back to the dream, because I think it's useful.
useful.
Why did you want to go out with this woman?
The initial thing was that I saw her sitting there at the bar and I sort of relayed this story once or twice before to Charlotte and everybody.
I saw this woman sitting there, and she's attractive, but I saw the way she was dressed.
And I sort of just did that thing you advised me to do, just take in what else about her that I noticed.
I noticed that she's with her co-workers who are drinking to various degrees, but she wasn't exactly drinking, and she was dressed conservatively and professionally.
compared to them.
And she just stood out, kind of.
When I walked over there and sat next to her, she talked about how much she liked her job.
She seemed to like what she was doing.
She laughed when I laughed at that guy's joke.
That was the initial, you know, wow, this girl might be interesting.
Let me talk to her more. And so that was my initial observations.
And I don't know, you know, if there's anything I missed or something I should have go by.
Yeah, but you've talked about things that were attractive, but why did you want to go out with her?
why did you want to meet her for a coffee?
Like if I'm her and I say, why do you want to meet me for a coffee?
What would you say?
I'm interested. I'd like to learn more about you.
I think you're nice.
I think I'd like to learn more about you and have a deeper conversation than a more intimate setting, I guess.
Right. Now, if I were to be a complete hearted ass, so to speak, and I were to say, Nate, what's in it for me?
What would you say? I think that I have a lot to offer and that I have a lot that I can share with you, ideas.
I think that...
You would find me interesting.
Now, do you believe that or is that something you're saying?
Because it doesn't sound like you really believe it.
I do. It's just that I do hesitate because it's possible that she'd find me terrifying.
So you're a little ambivalent, right?
Right. I am a little ambivalent because, you know, there's a lot of people that have found me terrifying.
I bring all of the glory and terror of authentic philosophy.
Join me on the mad flaming rollercoaster to heaven or to hell, we don't know where.
Right? I mean, but it's important, right?
Right. Right.
Right. I mean...
This is going to come as a shock to my younger listeners, but in my day, I was in fact what is colloquially known as a player.
And that doesn't mean that I used women, but I went out with a lot of women.
And this is not a trick, I mean, because I don't believe that inauthenticity, even in desires that are, you know, short-term or sexual, whatever, I don't think that inauthenticity will lead to anything good.
To raise your chances, I think, of getting a woman to go out with you, you have to think about her needs.
What does she want?
Right? How would that come up?
How would you form that into a, would you like to get a coffee?
I have a very Large.
Instead of principles to lay on you?
No, listen. Yeah, that's right.
I can't bend my knee.
I have an erection. No, I mean, you can't just focus on your needs.
And I'm not saying that's all you're doing.
But if you want someone to go out with you, if they have self-esteem, then they will want to know what's in it for them.
You wouldn't want them to do it just because you want it, right?
Right. Of course not, right.
And so I think you have to be somewhat clear, even in your own mind, about what's in it for her.
I mean, so, for instance, did she express interest in...
Did she quote any great authors?
Did she express any interest in economics or psychology or philosophy or anything?
anything that that would indicate that you would have something great to bring to her right yeah no no not in that not in the initial conversation now and And I say that, and again, this is just my particular approach.
It could be right or wrong, but I say that because, I mean, the relationships that I had that kind of worked, you know, whether for whatever period of time that was enjoyable or rich or, you know, for which I gained knowledge and pleasure out of it.
I mean, they had something where, you know, they...
They mentioned a book by Dostoevsky.
So at least I knew that they were well-read and, you know, so there would be something in common, right?
Or they did not flinch when I had some of my outrageous humor moments or whatever, or laughed.
Or they expressed skepticism about some commonly held belief in society.
Or whatever, right? You know, sports has just painted tribalistic crap or whatever.
I mean, I can't remember exactly the quotes, but there was something that indicated that the person actually thought for herself, that she actually thought for herself, however well or badly, but at least was not, a conformist was not blind to...
The sort of disco ball scintillation of a life lived with original thought.
And of course, my wife practiced psychology, so immediately we had some...
I knew that she would find what I had to say fascinating, even from a clinical standpoint.
But what was it?
Keep your eyes and ears peeled.
For a statement or a quote that indicates that the value that you bring to bear is something that's going to be appreciated.
Right. Like, I work in a hotel is not a sign, I don't drink, I'm dressed conservatively and I work in marketing, are not signs that what you bring to bear, that your passions, that what you're turned on by in life is going to be of interest to the woman.
Right.
That's a good point.
In that case, I would basically need to be the first to bring it up.
No, no, no.
It's in the listening. It's in the listening.
And I want to say that, you know, what if she's afraid to bring that up herself?
because like and I know there's a problem with that you Well, look, I mean, if you're both afraid, to be honest, then you probably shouldn't get into a relationship, right?
Right. Because you need somebody who's...
I mean, we're all nervous about living our values in some situations, and sometimes in most situations, it seems, certainly for me.
But I think it's...
She can't be somebody who simply can't say boo to a mouse about what she really thinks and feels, because you've spent your whole life...
Trying to dredge out fish from 20,000 feet, right?
Right. Or listen to her friends.
If she's talking with her friends, does she have a friend who knows what a film with subtitles looks like?
I mean, I don't know. I'm just making whatever it is, right?
It's even slightly...
Has gone to a film festival.
Is into a musician that's not mainstream.
You know, anything.
Anything that's just not...
Standard-issue cookie-cutter humanoids, right?
Right. You know, does she roll her eyes when she says she has to go to church with her parents all the week?
Anything, right? Where that indicates a sort of skeptical distance from the statistical norm.
She did express irritation.
She said, I don't enjoy spending time.
She did say, I don't enjoy spending time with my parents.
And that I'm not looking forward to the Thanksgiving thing.
Right, right. Okay. So she may be somebody who dislikes her parents.
That's not really quite enough, I would say.
Lots of people dislike their parents, or at least will express that outside of the year, showed up their parents.
But I don't think that's enough to, you know, jailbreak!
I mean, I think that's enough for you to really provide value.
Because, of course, that would really only be, you know, like, helping her or whatever value.
It's not quite the same as mutual value.
Right. But I think that's really important.
Like a relationship that I had, the first thing I heard was the woman talking about how much she loved to travel, you know, and how she had this degree in science, but she ended up not really liking working at a lab, and so she went and traveled for two years.
And to me, that's just, that's interesting.
And I think, I mean, I've certainly taken some left turns, so to speak, in my life, and What that said to me was that she could go and do something that was not the standard path, not the standard route, right?
Right. Or, you know, a woman who said, my father traveled a lot and lived in this country or this country or this country.
At least then she's seen a bunch of different cultures and is a bit more worldly, so to speak, rather than, you know, I... I've lived my whole life within 12 feet from where I was born, right?
I mean, it's just a possibility.
It's a possibility that there's an open-mindedness or a curiosity or a failure to be impressed by cliched standards or whatever that I think would mean that you would have something of value to offer her.
Because you have a guy who likes to think for himself and self-knowledge, self-exploration.
Is what you're bringing to the table, is the currency that you're bringing to the table something that she even respects as currency?
Right. I'm still trying to sort of figure out why the one that I knew for a fact shared all these values and passions about the world and even wrote an article for me, for my site, why she wasn't interested.
Sorry, why don't you know that?
If she doesn't know that, then you're probably not going to know that.
Sorry, if she doesn't know that, is that right?
She said it's not anything that she can put a finger on.
It certainly is, honey.
No, I think that's something worth exploring, right?
I mean, if she's a good friend or someone that you both value honesty, I think it's really important to explore.
Just say, hey, you know, I mean, I think you'd like to know why I'm not a hunker hunker burn in love for you.
I'd certainly like to know because I don't want to obviously ask women out who aren't attracted to me and I may have missed something there.
And I'm sure it would be helpful for you to figure out why you're not attracted to me so that you have greater self-knowledge.
Like, we could have a great conversation about why I'm not attractive to you.
Right. Not with the intention of changing your mind, you know, because if these pictures of me in Cancun don't do it, riding a dolphin, you know, with my hair flying in the wind because my arms are up, then nothing's going to do it.
But just in terms of, like, it would be really, I think, because there's so little that we're frank with each other about, particularly in the dating arena.
I mean, wouldn't you just love to have that kind of honest conversation where someone could say, well, there's this thing that you did, and I thought that was kind of off, and then there was that thing.
I know it's not always easy to hear, but I think it's...
To have those kinds of frank conversations in the dating arena I think is so important.
So if the woman is amenable, and I'm sure she is, if she's interested in sort of self-knowledge and RTR or whatever, right?
Sit down and have that conversation.
You know, were you ever, like, was there a time where you were and then you weren't or were you never and so on, right?
There could be, you know, you pick your nose like my dad does, right?
Exactly in the same way, using the same foot.
But it could be...
I can understand, like, what if, you know, I know that I have problems, like, with people who might look like my aunt or, God forbid, look like my mother.
That would be a hard thing to, like, Resolve in my head, you know?
It's just like if they physically look like someone from my childhood, then I think that would be difficult.
But I think it's important to ask.
I mean, I think it's important.
I think that would be a really useful conversation myself.
Right. It's not that I don't think I can, and I did actually ask, and that's why I know that she said she doesn't know.
She couldn't put her finger on it.
You know what the answer is to I don't know, right?
Of course you do. You may not know consciously, but of course you do.
Nobody's beholden to give you that kind of answer, but I guarantee you that for both of you, It would be immensely helpful and instructive.
And I guarantee you, it would be a huge weight off your mind, and it would also probably be a weight off her mind as well.
Right. Right, I think so too.
But, so, the dream...
Okay, so the dream, right?
So, in the dream, there are two things that are invisible.
Well, three things that are invisible.
You, the radio, and the music, prior to...
The piano, right? Right.
So, why don't you...
You see, you say, why doesn't anyone else speak up about the music?
The radio in the belly, right?
Right. Do you see why that's a crazy thing to say?
Because why didn't I speak up?
Yeah, because it's completely not UBB compliant, right?
They can't even hear it.
So of course they're not going to talk about it, or to empirical evidence they don't hear it, but you do hear it and you know it's there, but you don't say anything.
But I'm invisible. Right.
But you don't try to say anything.
You don't try to mime it.
You don't try and write it down.
You don't try and make the blow bits of paper into a scene which says there's a radio in her bed.
You don't try, right?
Right. You're a passive observer to the scene and you have this knowledge and you don't try, right?
Right. Because we don't know which...
The dream is saying...
It's not saying you don't try because you're invisible.
It might equally be saying you're invisible because you don't try to speak.
Oh. Because there's nothing in the dream where you say, I tried to speak, but I was a ghost and no one could hear me, right?
Now, if you tried to speak in the dream and no one could hear you, then the dream would be saying you're in an environment where people can't see who you really are.
But that's not what happens.
You don't even try to speak in the dream.
So the dream is saying it doesn't matter that you're invisible because you're invisible anyway because you're not trying to speak.
And you're focusing on the ethics or the virtue or the integrity of everyone else and not acting yourself.
Right.
I'm invisible because I'm not speaking up.
Thank you.
Well, that's what I would take out of the dream.
Rather than I'm not speaking up because I'm invisible.
Right. Because you don't know that.
That's not confirmed in the dream.
Each dream is its own universe, right?
Each dream is its own complete story.
Life, universe, everything.
And so in this universe, there's no evidence that you can't speak.
Right. Right. But they're saying that if you don't try to speak, it is synonymous to being invisible.
That makes sense in a lot of areas.
Right. Especially in the dating arena.
How so? Well, just...
Because philosophy isn't the first thing I bring up.
Or it's not...
I don't say I'm into all these ideas and I really like this or that.
So what you say, because it's not philosophy that you have to bring up.
I mean, if you happen to be thinking about what color to paint your ceiling, that may be what would come.
But in terms of honesty, you self-censor, right?
Yeah. And that's okay.
I mean, self-censoring is fine, in my opinion, but you have to be conscious of it, right?
I'm choosing not to say what is really on my mind, and that's okay, as long as you're conscious of it, but if it becomes a habit that is just automatic, then that's not good, right?
And I've gotten very good at not censoring myself with all my friends here in Philly, but when it comes to this dating thing...
Oh, Nate, Nate, don't see it.
I'm terrified. No, no, no, you don't see it.
You say, I have become expert at not censoring myself with my friends, right?
Yes. Yes. But this is completely not true.
And that's the complete opposite of the truth.
What? Why do you even have these friends?
Because I don't center myself.
Because of the Natecasts.
What? Because of the Natecasts.
Oh. Because you did not censor yourself in your conversations with me, or I didn't allow you to censor yourself in your conversations with me, and so you have these friends because you did not self-censor.
You didn't learn how to not self-censor because of these friends.
Wow, amazing how that dovetails into the I'm not invisible because I'm not the same thing.
It's the same error that you're making in my opinion.
Right. Huh.
Now, self-censorship is not innate to our personality.
And again, I'm saying this as a, you know, ye olde amateur dad.
But self-censorship, I mean, Isabella doesn't censor anything, right?
I mean, she's hurt, she's upset, she's happy, she's sad.
You know. You know all about it and then some.
So, in this interesting dream...
Something is implanted in this girl, which plays faint music that no one can hear.
And that is a kind of self-censorship.
She can't express.
Nobody's hearing. But it's also not authentic.
It's not hers. It's a radio.
It's not her music. It's something that's coming from somewhere else.
It's not authentic. So if she's not authentic, if she, in a sense, plays a music that is implanted in her by an authority figure, by a man, a parent, a priest, whatever, some false self, then no one can hear it except someone else who's being false, right?
Oh, wow. But when she plays her own skill in music, when she plays her own music...
She draws...
She draws a crowd, and everyone can hear her.
And they admire her, and they...
Right? Right.
Because in both...
It's great.
Like, in both circumstances, there's music coming out of her.
One is a radio that some sadistic doctor put in her abdomen, which no one can hear except you, who's silenced, right?
But when she...
When there's music coming out of her that she's playing out of her own love and passion for music, then everybody can hear her.
And then they're not irritated by her, or...
Well, they're excited.
They come, they're applauding, they're...
Right? Yeah.
Wow, this interpretation turned out, like, completely different than I thought it would.
Hmm. Right.
And the radio may be free domain radio, app domain radio, right?
I mean, it's a joke, and I don't know if that's serious or not, but it could be that...
It's the old thing, right?
To listen to philosophy versus to live philosophy, to talk about philosophy versus to put it into practice.
To talk about the truth, to be honest, in a situation where everybody's okay with it or even enthusiastic about it is one thing, but that's not how philosophy is going to grow.
That's not how your life is going to affect and rise like a tide all the boats around you, even those who don't know philosophy.
That is going to come again.
From you playing the music that is yours, not faintly broadcasting a podcast from someone else.
Wow, that's pretty intense.
I started wrapping my mind tentacles through this whole thing.
this interpretation definitely fits everything that's sort of been going on.
Right, so instead of saying, do I like this girl, do I like this woman, you can certainly ask that, it's a valid question to ask, but that to me would not be enough to ask someone out.
Thank you.
Is this woman interesting enough to like me?
Is this woman intelligent enough to like me?
Is she curious enough to like me?
Is she lively enough to like me?
Is she strong enough to get on the white water raft of philosophy and self-knowledge with me?
me or is she going to get swept away on the first wave?
Is she even interested in that kind of strength?
Or is that something that she would run screaming from?
Right. What did you say when she said, I don't like my parents and I'm not looking forward to Thanksgiving?
I said, I think I said I can relate to that.
I can understand that.
I'm sorry to hear. And honestly, I don't remember what I said next or what was said next.
What else could you ask her when she said that?
I don't know what the right answer is, obviously.
I'm just throwing out some hooks.
How do you feel about that?
What are your feelings?
No, she already said how she feels about it, right?
She's irritated. I could say go on, tell me more.
What was the most useful thing that I said?
I'm not the gold standard.
For you, what was useful?
Asking about my history with them.
What was your childhood like?
That may have been a bit tough to do in a social situation, right?
Yeah. Here's a possibility.
There's no right or wrong. This is a possibility.
If I were interested in single or whatever, this is what I would have said, which again, I'm not saying this is no script, but this is what I would have said.
I would have said, oh, I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm curious, why are you going?
Huh. If you don't like them, why are you going?
I wonder why I didn't think of that.
No, and see, I don't want you to think that that's the right or wrong answer, but I think there's a lot in that that is quite...
Interesting. A lot in that question.
Because it tells the woman a lot about me.
It does. Whereas you came off kind of neutral.
What you communicated was, I've had real problems with my family too.
I can relate, right?
Yes. But I didn't communicate my values there.
No, you didn't. You said, I can relate.
I've had horrible times with my family.
Want to get a coffee? Yeah.
Yeah, I see how that worked.
And this is not a kick-yourself kind of thing, right?
Because if she had been the right kind of person, she may have asked you more.
Oh, well, tell me. Oh, whatever, right?
Who knows, right? But I think the question of why go...
It's really interesting, because if there is latent electrical energy in those frontal lobes, it will leap up at that question, right?
Well, when she mentioned this, I did tell her that I... She asked, I think, what I was doing for Thanksgiving.
And I said, well, I don't have a family, but I'm meeting with a bunch of friends that I really love and I'm close to, and I'll gather together down the street from here.
And have a big dinner.
I don't have a family?
Because they were lost at sea, abducted by space aliens?
I mean, again, and that's just not right or wrong, but that's a bit of a vague way of putting it, right?
Yeah, it is kind of vague.
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't go any...
I mean, you understand. I'm not trying to give you a script here.
And if you have decided to be vague...
Then you need to be conscious of that.
So when I say, you know, when she said, what are you doing for Thanksgiving, if you'd have said to me, well, Steph, I kind of hedged it and I said, well, I don't have, but you said it like without seeming conscious of the vagueness, right?
Right, but yeah, it is vague, but if you put it together with the fact that I also said that I had, I can relate, I had a similar perspective.
Right. What you're saying is, I'm indirect, and you have to piece together my, you know, it's like a fucking Dan Brown novel trying to figure out what the hell I'm saying, right?
There's a dead pope in the middle of the road.
Now, what next? Yeah, I'm a little indirect.
A little indirect, he said, a little indirectly.
Right. And again, I don't have any problem, not that you should care whether I have a problem or not, but I don't have any problem if you decide to be vague about it, as long as you're conscious about it.
Right. And say, hmm, right?
And the interesting thing, Nate, is that if you're conscious about wanting to be vague, you're much less likely to want to ask the girl out.
Because if you're conscious and you say, I dropped a few hints...
She didn't pick up on any of them.
She didn't circle back. She didn't, right?
So how direct with this person can I be?
I don't feel comfortable being direct with this person.
Oh, right. Right.
So why don't I feel comfortable?
Before you send out the email, set yourself up for another round of Simon the Box of Rejection.
Why could I not?
This is the value of being conscious, is you actually get to process your own experience.
Why did I not feel comfortable?
What signals was she giving me that I did not feel comfortable being direct and honest about this person?
Or with this person? I win.
I always want to jump to blaming myself.
Like, I wasn't direct, you know.
It's my fault. No, no, no.
The conversation is a very complex system.
And remember, 90% of it is non-verbal.
It's in the eye contact. It's when the person looks away.
It's in their body language.
It's in the pause before they answer.
It's in the breathing. So there's a lot of information that we're getting that has nothing to do with what's actually being said.
And that's what actually gives us the opening or the closing of the gates of honesty.
And then what I did after that...
Not that I didn't just hear what you said, but...
To go further and say after I figured out that she was basically rejecting me, I went back to the what's wrong with me question or is it that I don't have a good enough sense of humor or I don't have this or that.
That's hard not to jump into and I've been kind of considering finding another therapist to walk me through this whole But don't self-attack.
That's not going to do you any good and that's just more of the same, right?
It's curiosity. First of all, you're allowed to be indirect.
Particularly in a first meeting of someone, you're allowed to not, you know, hey, here's my entire life story from A to Z and I'm going to play you these 12 podcasts before we go out or whatever, right?
It's perfectly okay for you to be circumspect, for you to be reserved, for you to withhold information.
But if you're not conscious of the fact that you're doing so, you're missing a lot of important communication in the conversation.
Right, and I'm conscious of it at work.
I'm conscious that I'm not communicating things to my boss or the values that I hold, because I know that that wouldn't go well.
And I know why it wouldn't go well.
I came up with several points of things that he said that I know that that wouldn't go well.
Right. So if you're talking to this woman and you become unconscious, that's very important.
Now, you can attack yourself for it if you want, but that's not going to help anything at all, right?
It's important to say, why did I end up being unconscious around this person?
And the answer, I'll give you straight up, is because...
She's not conscious. Wow.
Because if she were conscious, I mean, I think this is the value that I bring to these podcast conversations, is I try to stay as conscious as I can to what the person's saying, what the implications are, what I'm experiencing, whether I'm withholding and why, and to process that in real time, try to give that feedback back to the person.
And that's why it's hard for people to zone out with me, because I'm trying to be, you know, really present and conscious in the conversation.
And not withdrawing, not getting alienated, not getting freaked out, not getting judgmental, not getting...
whatever, right? I'm trying to be really conscious in the conversation.
And I don't think that you experienced that same thing with me that you did with this woman where it's like, well, this thing just kind of came out and whatever, right?
Like it was...
And so if you end up being unconscious around someone, the first place that I would look is...
What indication was there that the other person was unconscious?
Well, one great indication of someone who's unconscious is irritation.
From me or from both?
No, from her. Right.
That's quite true.
Another indication that someone's unconscious is the weather as a topic.
Right. Right.
I had sort of made all kinds of excuses for that conversation.
Yeah. Look, I mean, the weather is really boring.
And it's a cliche to talk about the weather, right?
It's worse than sports, right?
At least with sports, you can say I don't follow sports, but you can't say I don't experience weather.
I live in a biodome of my own making, right?
I constructed it out of my own feasts in my sub-basement, right?
So you can't escape.
But it's one of these clichés.
Yes, it's hot over here.
Yes, it's cold over here.
Yes, it rains more over here.
Yes, it's kind of humid down there.
It's like, shoot me. Like, just fucking shoot me.
Because it's really just ridiculous, right?
Quite true, quite true.
Yeah, that's...
These are the more subtle things that...
Now, can you say, I'm sorry, I really, you know, I can't get at all interested in weather talk.
I apologize. I'm just, I'm really bad at small talk.
Right, I could say that.
Right, and that's okay if you can't, but are you conscious of why?
Or if you were to say, you know, much though this conversation about the weather is interesting, I think what's probably got more meat on the bones as far as conversation goes is, you know, tell me a little bit more about your family.
Why don't you want to go and why do you feel that you even should?
That's a great lead-in.
And do you know why, I think that then, sorry to spend so long on this, to the people who are waiting, I'll get to the caller and we can go a little over time, but the reason why that's so important, Nate, is that if you interrupt somebody whose false self prattling about the weather and you ask about something that's actually important to their life, Do you know what you're showing?
Shall we? - Curiosity.
I'm showing who I am, what I'm interested in, what I'm more interested in, the things that I'm passionate about, my values.
These are all you statements, which is fine, and I'm not saying that those are wrong.
Oh, you said what you're showing.
Not what you're feeling.
I'm showing that I'm interested.
No. No.
Okay, I give up.
You're actually showing that you're not interested because they're talking about the weather, right?
Let me give you a metaphor, because you can get this, and when you do, you'll kick yourself, which is fine.
Don't, but sure you will, right?
So if you're a doctor in the emergency room, right, and somebody is coming in, and they've got some bloody great gash down their arm, And they come in and they say, I think I have a hangnail.
I'd really like to talk to you about my hangnail.
This hangnail's been here for a while and it's kind of bothering me at night.
I really want to go on about my hangnail.
What do you think of this hangnail? Is this hangnail something you'd be interested in looking at?
What about the hangnail? The hangnail?
What would you say? The hangnail's nice, but let's fix that gash in your arm.
And why would you say that?
Because I'm very concerned about the bleeding gash in her arm.
Right. And why are you concerned?
Because you care about the person.
Right. So the reason you stop people talking about boring bullshit like the weather and ask them about something that's actually relevant and important to their life is because you care about that person.
Now, if you don't care about that person, then don't ask them out for coffee.
If you do care about that person...
And the opportunity arises and you're willing to, you know, take the possible immediate rejection, then say, you know, we could spend the rest of our life talking about the weather, but I can't imagine that's important in your life.
And I know I've just met you and all that, but I'm more interested and more curious about what's going on, you know, your family, your Thanksgiving, or anything else that's of interest to you.
What's genuinely of interest to you is not this woman's opinion on the weather.
And if you care about her as a human being, not as a potential girlfriend, not as a date, not as a sap for the dating ego, if you care about her as a person, then you stop her talking about the hangnail and draw her attention to whatever.
And I know I'm talking about wounds, which is just a metaphor.
It could be something that she could say she's really excited about something, that she's going to see her favorite dancer or whatever, right?
Because she always wanted to be a dancer.
And then she starts talking about the weather and it's like, no, no, let's go back to the dancer thing because that was interesting.
Because you care about that person as an individual.
So you want to take away the emptiness and the self-diminuation of small talk and focus on that, which is important.
Because you care. And if you don't care enough to refocus the person on something that's actually got meaning, then it makes no sense to ask her out for a coffee.
Because she got that you didn't care enough about her to stop her from blathering on about small talk.
Wow. I'm not saying consciously, right?
Right, of course. But I think you're right that she didn't get that.
Or she did get that unconsciously.
And that may be part of the reason why she didn't email me back, whether she knows it or not.
Yeah, I'm sure she doesn't know it, but...
People are constantly putting out things that they really want to talk about.
Or constantly putting out things that they really want to talk about.
And they're just... They're hoping and they're dreading that someone's going to pick them up on it.
Hoping and dreading. Please listen to me.
Please listen to what I really want to talk about.
Please, for God's sake, don't listen to what I really want to talk about, right?
I mean, there's a lot of ambivalence around this, right?
For people. But if you look, there are about six million fireworks above everybody's almost every sentence about what they really are desperate to talk about, what they really want to talk about, what would really help them connect with another human being.
Right. And then, because they're scared of the feelings of emptiness and loneliness that will come about when no one picks up on that, they then immediately cover up their reach for someone with a big flurry of empty small talk, hoping that nobody noticed.
And that's kind of what she did.
I feel certain because that's what most people do.
I think I even do that every now and then.
I'm sure. I'm absolutely sure of that.
I'm absolutely sure of that. Because we all do to some degree or another, but most people do it quite a lot.
If not, that's all they do.
So I need to watch for that more closely.
Yeah, and it's around self-monitoring, right?
If you're bored, if you feel...
Like, you're just being compliant with some topic that's not really fundamentally of interest to you.
If you feel yourself slipping into a kind of historical, chatty, jokey mode that is not particularly warm or intimate, then, you know, just try and redirect that to something that's more honest.
And she may then just say, you're a freak, right?
I don't want to talk to you about that.
And that's fine. It's then, okay, well, guess who's not getting a coffee invitation, right?
You're off my tea party list.
Thank you very much. Give me back your plastic plate.
Right. I'm taking my ball and I'm going home.
But, you know, sooner rather than later, and at least then you don't feel rejected.
Right, because if I'm conscious of these things, then I can at least...
Well, if you try to talk about something important and the woman shuts you down, or something meaningful, or something real, then...
You know, you're being rejected by somebody.
You're not being hired by somebody you would never want to work for anyway.
It's like, hey, I'm glad this is mutual and I'm glad that it was efficient.
Right. Right, because if you put the false self stuff up front, what are you, on your tenth date, you're going to start being real?
I mean, talk about a bait and switch, right?
Yeah, that is. She revealed that she has a penis?
I say, well, you know, I didn't want to bring this up right up front because I thought it might be a problem, you know?
Good, good point.
That's just a lot to think about, I think.
Well, it is. And, you know, all you need is love, right?
If you love the other person, I know it's a strong word to use for someone you've just met, but if you care about the person, if you have enough love within you for humanity as a whole, to not be distracted by empty topics and to talk about stuff that's actually important, If you have that love for someone, then show it.
And if you don't have that love for someone, don't ask them out for coffee.
I'm trying to refrain from kicking myself.
Yeah.
Well, don't sprain yourself, you know?
If you need to work out, then go for it.
But it's not a kicking out thing.
This is really advanced stuff, right?
This is real-time relationships in one of the most challenging situations, which is the cold-read pickup, right?
I mean, that's crazy challenging, right?
Right. Cold-read sober pickup, right?
I mean, that's really, really challenging.
Very few people can meet somebody in...
A grocery store, a coffee shop, I mean, that's really, that's a really stressful and challenging situation.
And so to be open and honest and in touch with yourself during a time of great stress, this is like super advanced stuff.
I mean, you can kick yourself if you want, but this is like freaking...
Yeah, because, I mean, my heart was like pounding, I was shaking, my hands were clammy, and I was nervous because I was just walking up and talking to someone that had interested me from afar, and I've Just was really...
I was afraid.
Right, right, right.
So then saying, well, I want to stay authentic and I want to continue to challenge in the conversation.
This is really, I mean, this is super advanced stuff, right?
It's like juggling ten cats with four more torches to go with it and maybe some barbed wire.
Right. And the final step after this is just realizing that nothing's easier than honesty, right?
So after a while, you just be like, you know, it's just too much work.
I'm just going to be honest, right?
Right. And it's been hard enough just to continue this with friends in my life, all the friends in my life now, to constantly maintain this.
It's gotten really easy, but Just compared to before, but it's just...
That's hard enough.
So I guess kicking myself for that is just not fair.
Yeah, and I mean, compared to who, right?
I mean, who is it in your life that has this staggering...
You know, a level of, you know, that has demonstrated this and that you've been around for a long time and you know intimately and who's, you know, who's a friend.
Like, it's tough to find people who, you know, I mean, you have friends who are there who are working through the similar sorts of issues and have their own challenges just as I do and everybody else in the realm of self-knowledge does.
So, you know, you can compare yourself to some ideal of perfect honesty, which I don't think actually exists because it's fundamentally impossible, but...
Because we all have ten thoughts in our heads.
Which one should I be honest about, right?
I mean, you can't be perfectly honest until we do Vulcan mind melds or something, and then we're all runaway screaming.
But, you know, compared to this woman, compared to the average man on the street, you know, I think that you should be proud of everything you've achieved.
And if you want to go for a postdoctoral RTR, you know, doctorate, then I think you should go ahead and go for that, but not kick yourself, because maybe there's a post-postdoc somewhere in India who might be three steps ahead of you.
Right. Right.
Very good point. Or because I didn't hear about this, you know, three years before it actually existed, or things like that.
Yeah. And you could be married to she who has no name.
Oh, yeah. Like, think about the road not taken, too, right?
I mean, you want to talk about kicking yourself, right?
Oh, and look, she's pregnant.
Oh, look, yay!
Right? That would have been awful.
Yeah, that would have been awful.
That would have been a lifetime of awful.
So, be proud of that.
Right. Well, thanks so much.
There's a lot of things I've always wanted to say, just talk about, and I understand that you're right, you can't be perfectly honest about everything, because there's not enough time in the world to talk about every single little thing.
But it's cool that we're not bored and that I won't be bored when I come up there.
And we didn't talk about the weather.
Right. Alright, listen.
Somebody's been on the phone. James, are they still around?
I'm so sorry that it took so long and we will go a little over because I'm sorry.
But this was, I think, an important topic and a topic I know a lot of people are facing challenges with.
Person who called in, still around?
Yes, no. It's gone.
Alright, so to Divine Miss H, you wanted to throw something in.
We have two minutes! No, we can go a little over, but you had something that you wanted to talk about.
Yeah. Okay.
Can you hear me alright? I can.
Okay. So, I'm new to the workplace.
I'm working at Walmart.
Hey! Congratulations! Yes, thank you.
No, seriously. That's great.
I mean, I know that it was a long haul for you to get over that hump.
So, you know, yay, cheers.
Yeah, seriously. Like, applying has been the hardest thing.
Everything else, now that I'm in, it's easy.
Right. I'm not sure yet why it was so hard to apply.
I have some ideas.
But what I want to talk about is, at work, there's this lady who's really depressing.
She's so depressing and miserable.
I find myself really irritated.
And being around her and stuff.
And there's no doubt that she brings everybody down around her.
And I... I'm not sure.
You know, what was weird is today, I heard her saying that she had gone to therapy or something to another co-worker, and I was thinking about, like, gee, you know, this person's life could be much better if she found something Like, Nathaniel Brandon or something.
Which I happened to have in my backpack.
So I was thinking, you know, what would happen if I just hinted or something like, you know, I heard you were going to therapy.
You might like this book or something, you know.
And then just leave it at that.
I don't know if that's...
A good idea or not?
I mean, she might...
She might like...
Oh, then again, you know, it might be a good thing, because if she doesn't like it, she'd be like, you know, stay away from me kind of thing, and then I could stay away from her, you know?
But it's either I'd like her to be happier or stay away from me, please.
Because it's already...
Work is already, you know, low-wage jobs are already, like, not really fun.
What do you think about that?
How old is the woman? She's got to be like 40, I'd say.
I love the younger people on this show.
She's got to be like, oh man, she's Asian.
She's like 40.
Hey, wait a minute.
Okay, so she's 40 and do you know anything about her life, her personal life, her life outside of work?
No, I would guess that she's like single or something and she hates life, I guess.
And can she change?
Yeah, I bet she could change if she just tried and...
No, no, no, that's not...
If she tried and if she wanted, of course, everybody could change.
Can she change? What do you mean?
I mean, you know whether she can change or not, deep down.
I would put it more like she probably won't.
Okay, how much money would you put on a bet that she will change?
That you give her this book, she's going to get into Nathaniel Brandon, she's going to get into a productive relationship.
Oh yeah, like a penny.
No, no, so a penny you would put in, right?
Yeah. Which is exactly the same as saying, I want to get rid of a penny and she can't change, right?
Yeah. Okay, so is it a good idea?
No. Alright, so you don't need to ask me.
You're expecting some two-hour conversation, right?
You know, right?
Yeah. This is self-trust, right?
Yeah. How much money would I put on that, right?
I mean, this is an important question.
We have really great calculations when it comes to money and risk deep down in our brains, right?
That's why, to me, like the climate guys who say climate change is happening and it's going to do this, this, and this, it's like, okay, how much money are you going to put on a bet that that's actually going to happen?
Because it's easy to bet with the taxpayer's money or it's easy to get well paid for coming up with scare scenarios, but how much are you willing to put on a bet That your predictions are going to be correct about global warming.
And of course, nobody would put a penny on that stuff because they'd say, well, shit, I don't know.
But, you know, so a good way to ask questions is how much money would I put on this?
Well, yeah.
Maybe there's a better reason for why I wanted to do that.
I was thinking maybe...
Maybe if I think that I have some ability to control my environment or something, because I really don't like people.
It's not an ability, it's a fantasy.
If you'd only put a penny on this woman changing, then it's a fantasy that you can control this environment.
Yeah. I really hate going to work.
And it's only been my, like, fourth day.
Oh, listen, I feel ya, sister.
I understand. I really do.
I mean, I spent years in the Valhalla of low-wage jobs, and it's not pretty, right?
It's not pretty. You know, another clue is that this woman's 40 and she's doing an entry-level job at Walmart, right?
Yeah. That either indicates very low intelligence, which doesn't seem to be the case, or extremely low emotional abilities, or EQ. Yeah.
And either way, it bodes not well for you being the white knight riding over to rescue her from a lack of self-knowledge, right?
Right. I think maybe I just want to do it from my relief or something.
Yeah, you want to control your emotions around this woman by having a fantasy that, at least in my opinion, that you can change her.
But I'm telling you, if you just go, hey, this is like an animal in a zoo, right?
I mean, we may not like the monkey scratching itself, but we don't imagine that we can talk him out of it, right?
Yeah. So we go there, you know, I'm going to take Isabella to the zoo, and Isabella's going to say, what is that baboon doing to himself with a coconut, right?
And we're like, I really wish the baboon weren't doing that.
I would be much more comfortable as a father if this was not occurring.
However, it is, and so I have to deal with it, and I'm not going to deal with it by tossing a copy of Please Don't Scratch Yourself That Way by I Am Some Polite Guy, right?
Yeah. I'm just going to accept that the monkey is going to do this horrible thing to itself or perhaps a pleasurable thing to itself with a coconut.
I don't know. I'm not a monkey. But I'm not going to pretend that I can change that.
I just have to, you know, to deal with that with Isabella, right?
And saying that he's clearly violating God's commandments and will burn into monkey hell forever.
Right? But if you look at it like animals in a zoo, and I know that sounds condescending, and I don't mean it that way, but I just mean in terms of your ability to affect their behavior.
Then it's like, yeah, okay, it's not really pleasant that the monkey is throwing feces at something, right?
But I'm not going to pretend that I can talk the monkey out of it, so to speak.
Yeah. And then I actually get to deal with my own feelings rather than imagining that I can do something to change my environment.
The only environment that I can really change is myself, right?
Yeah. So how can I do that?
Because I've really...
I'm going to be in this job until I can get something better.
So how can I handle this?
Well, I'll give you a couple of tips.
Okay. Because I've had to deal with this a lot, right?
The first is to recognize...
People are depressing because they talk about the world, right?
The world is this.
The world is that. Nobody ever wins.
Nothing ever gets ahead. Nothing ever gets finished.
Nothing is good enough. Nothing is right.
Nothing ever happened.
Like, it's global, right?
Okay.
Well, I don't want you to reproduce this woman's speech, but what is it that she says that's depressing?
Okay.
Well, she'll give little comments about Like, somebody talks about being alive or something.
I don't know how. And then she's like, oh, I don't.
As in, she doesn't like being alive.
Just basically, like, she keeps saying in some way or another, I hate life, I hate life, I hate life.
You know? Right.
I mean, that's definitely tough to be around, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Right. It's like, given her body language and her voice and everything, it's like a constant moaning.
Right, right. And you know, I went home from work this morning, because I work overnight, and I came home moaning.
Right. I came home moaning like her.
Like watching somebody slowly pounding off their little toe with a spoon or something, right?
It's just painful and unpleasant.
Well, you know, when people are like that, and yeah, sorry, it doesn't sound like she's a globalizer, but when people are like that, one of the things that I found helpful is to say, you know what this woman is, is a morality tale.
And that morality tale is, please, dear God, I better not be working here when I'm 40.
Yeah. Here's a big example of what not to do in life, because whatever this woman did in life that let her hear, I shouldn't be doing that, right?
Yeah. So you can either just say, well, this is a good example of don't work at warm-up when you're 40, if you've got abilities or ambitions that go further.
Yeah. But she's certainly trying to draw you into, I'm not saying consciously, but it would seem to me that she's trying to draw you into engaging.
Like, oh, what's so bad, or life isn't so bad, or whatever, right?
Like, she's trying to draw you in, and this is why you're feeling this impulse to help her, right?
Yeah. But don't.
I was thinking it's kind of related to what you were talking about with Nathan.
People are constantly sending out signs like, please listen to me, and then please don't listen to me.
Right. Right.
I think this is probably not quite that.
Oh, okay. Because this just sounds a lot darker than that.
Like, I don't want to live. I mean, yeah, I guess that's kind of...
But I would say that if you don't like the woman, then you can't help her.
If there's nothing about her that you like, then you can't help her.
And if you can't help someone because you don't like her, then don't engage.
Okay. Like, it's her own thing.
It's her own trip. It's just what she does to get through the day.
She's not actually asking for help.
She's not actually wanting to improve her life.
It's just the way that she discharges the poison container idea.
It's just the way that she discharges some venom into the general atmosphere so that she feels a little less bad for a while.
But it's got nothing to do with fixing or changing or anything like that, right?
Right. That makes sense.
So... Yeah, I hope that works.
It's like if there's an old bus...
The gears grind and the brakes squeak and it's unpleasant to listen to it.
It's like, hey, that sucks, but I can't fix it.
I'm not a mechanic. I can't fix the bus.
And whoever's driving it doesn't obviously want to fix it because they're right in there, right?
And it's a difficult and unpleasant thing that's going to pass you by, but it's not yours to fix.
It's not yours to deal with.
Plus, of course, I mean, you're a young woman with your own struggles.
You've moved out.
You've just got this new job.
I mean, your plate is full, right?
Yeah. Yeah. You don't have a lot of excess resources to go around trying to help people who appear to be hanging off a rope and trying to drag everyone else with them down, right?
Yeah. So I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't get drawn in.
I wouldn't expend energy.
I would look at it as, you know, just an old machine making bad noises, if that makes any sense.
Okay. You know, like some, you get those shopping carts with the wobbly squeaky thing and it's like, well, that's annoying.
So this woman's got a wobbly, squeaky, depressing voice box.
It's a machine that's creaky and noisy and a little unpleasant to listen to, but it's not something that you can do anything about.
Okay. I'll try that.
And if I'm still having trouble, I think I want to come back next Sunday.
What do you think about that?
I've talked a lot.
Hey, as long as people like the topics that you're bringing up, I'm totally game.
As long as you're not displacing other people who want to talk, and if people are enjoying the topics, I mean, I think it's great.
Okay. And look, if anybody else, I mean, if you've experienced this kind of thing before, feel free to post on the board and help out with other tips that you've had.
I really just had to take a step back and just...
Say, you know, a lot of people just make complaining noises, you know, like an old couch that's just squeaky and grindy, you know, and it's like, I can't fix it because I'm not an upholsterer or whatever, whoever fixes couches or whatever.
Right. But it's definitely not your job to fix.
And remember, of course, you've been trained to take other people's problems on as your own, right?
Yeah. Because that's what happens when people don't take responsibility for their life, then they dump all that responsibility on other people.
So she's obviously trying to get other people to get engaged and to lift a load of hers or whatever, right?
And you've been trained to do that in your family, if I remember rightly.
I mean, people didn't take responsibility, so it was always your fault and your issue to fix, right?
Right. My parents blamed me for so many things.
Yeah, so don't get hoovered into fixing this woman's problems, right?
You have four days on the job.
She's almost twice your age, right?
Just, it's not your job to fix somebody whose life is so messed up that they're depressing people at Walmart at the age of 40.
You know, like, it's not your job to fix that person, right?
Yeah. I mean, it's like going up to somebody who's been a chain smoker for 40 years, and they got emphysema, and you say, I have two lungs, you take one.
It's like, no, no, no, no.
Right? You smoked, you live with it, right?
Or not. Yeah.
Yeah, you know, oh my gosh, I just thought about that.
I have two lungs, you can have one.
Yeah, now, I mean, my wife, yeah, she can have a lung.
My daughter, she can have a lung.
Some woman I know for four days who's depressing the hell out of me, no lung for you.
No lung for you, right?
No soup for you and no lung for you.
It's kind of like, it relieves my anxiety or something.
If I have something that I can give to somebody...
And somehow I've made it better for them, I guess.
But you can't make it better for them by taking responsibility for them.
You can't make life better for other people by taking responsibility.
You can't make life better for people who are chronically in debt by giving them money, right?
Right. You can't make things better for people by taking responsibility for them, by taking ownership of their problems.
You can't do it.
In fact, that just makes it worse.
Okay. Because she'll feed on you, my guess, right?
You'll try to help her and she'll thwart you and she'll feel like she's got you running around trying to solve her problems and then she's going to feel like she's got some infusion of young flesh, young blood, or to drink, to drink, right?
Yeah. And then you'll end up driving a stake through a heart.
And I'm not sure where you live, but I'm pretty sure that's not legal.
And you'll end up in a twilight seat.
You'll have to... Yeah, it won't be legal.
Okay. Yeah, you know, I just thought of...
You know what? Have you seen the end of Shaun of the Dead where the zombies are working at Walmart?
Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, that movie's great because, of course, they're all zombies in the beginning too, right?
Right, right. Yeah, you know, it's just, you know, do not feed your brains to the people who just want to eat brains, right?
No lung for you. We'll put that on an FDR t-shirt.
No lung for you! Okay.
I'll remember. I'll think of it like that.
Right, right, right.
Yeah, don't anger the zombies, right?
They just get annoying and hungry.
Okay. Alright, well thanks very much everybody for a great set of calls.
I really do appreciate it and thanks to Nate for bringing the dream up and thanks to our courageous Jewish friend or perhaps Jewish friend from the mythical state of Israel and thanks to The Divine Message for bringing up a fantastic topic again and thanks everybody so much for all your continued support and I will continue on since they do seem to be quite popular.
With the interviews, next up is a handbook, sorry, is a hand puppet of mine who will be telling me what's what.
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