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Nov. 20, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:19:04

1513 Negotiations - A Role-Play

A ferocious alter, with little alteration...

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	This is Rick. How are you going? Oh, hi, Rick.
	Hi, Rick. I'm just fine. How are you doing?
	Hey, not too bad.
	Good to have you on the line.
	All right. So what can I do for you, my friend?
	All right. Well, I've been listening to your show for a while now and started listening to it when I planned to go to Canada and I thought I might be able to hook up with some libertarian people over there.
	So I started Googling and I guess it's been two years now, perhaps, and I'm up to the 400s.
	And I've shot through the 900s and the 1100s a bit, but there are still some things that are missing, like I heard about the MECO system on and off a few times, but I've never heard it laid out.
	And I spoke to you in that Sunday chatroom a couple of weeks ago, and the podcast that I'm up to, people are talking about getting on the beam and promoting FDR and wearing t-shirts and such.
	But things have changed since then, so there's going to be some discontinuities.
	But I've heard some wonderful podcasts where you've taken people and examined their lives and just done what you're really good at and well I've heard some wonderful podcasts and it seems like there are people lead into things by talking about their issues and I've just jotted down like seven things here that could be lead-ins for me but where it always goes is looking at the family and figuring out what the anatomy of your family is,
	right? It's always a good place to start, though it may not be where the end point is.
	It's usually a good thing to either confirm or eliminate first app.
	Right. Oh yeah, certainly.
	So I might need drugs or I might need some other courses of remedy to fix the things that I'm not happy with.
	So let me just rattle off these things.
	Aggressive motivation is something I do.
	When I want to motivate someone, I kind of bug them and corner them and, you know, give me what I need.
	And that's a bad thing about me that I keep lapsing into, not as much as I used to.
	I've been to therapy and they were not helpful.
	That's what I was talking about on the Sunday call-in show.
	And I don't know what they were supposed to be because I've never been before, but I've tried three different people and It seemed to me that they were all completely hopeless and inept and they didn't do what I wanted to do.
	And I wanted to talk about self-esteem and they wanted to talk about procrastination, which is important, but I didn't think it was the main thing, so that's the third thing.
	An unengaged emotional apparatus.
	I'm not used to getting into emotion and That was when I hooked into Free Domain Radio.
	I had a forum thread about how I really don't think emotions matter and they're just will-o'-the-wisp things you need to try and spock out of your life.
	But I've changed my mind about that and still working on it.
	I upset my partner.
	I don't understand why sometimes she gets upset with me.
	And I don't hear about it till later when she's crying or something and then I ask her what's wrong and it turns out it's something I said that morning or the day before and she's been nursing it and she says that she tried to bring it up or she didn't because she felt bad about it.
	Political involvement, I'm kind of big on the New Zealand political scene over here and I have relationships and contacts and I can kind of see the future that I might want to get the hell out of that and Give it up because I'm wasting my time, but not yet.
	Triggers and defence mechanisms, that's something that I couldn't quite get from your show, but I went to some more resources and got into this Freudian idea that we've got dissociation and projection and we've got...
	Going back to childhood and we've got acting out all those sorts of things and you did do a really good podcast about it but it was kind of tainted because you were making jokes about the Iraq war at the time and it didn't I thought that was a brilliant really really important part of self-discovery but it kind of got downplayed it was a two-parter and the final thing is my relationship with my parents and my extended family I don't like to I find my parents unpleasant to hang out with,
	but I still try and make the effort.
	And so I haven't de-food.
	And also my partner's extended family, we have Sunday dinners with them and I just hate being there and they don't want to talk to me and they talk about trivia and they laugh at things that make me uncomfortable and I'm not sure what to do about it.
	So those are seven leaping off points, but I guess what I really want from you in the time that I've got is to Figure out what kind of family I had, what kind of sort of spacesuit I created for myself to survive that environment, and that might now be superfluous.
	Right. Okay, do you want me to just dive in with some questions?
	Yeah, you run the show now.
	All right. What seems to me to be absent from the things that you're...
	Do you mind if I use your first name, or should we not use names at all?
	Yeah, I don't mind at all, Rick.
	Okay, just because you know it's recorded and all.
	But what seems to me, the thing that I notice is missing from what you're saying, Rick, is negotiation.
	Right. If I were to look at the one thing that is common, that sort of leaps out of what you're saying about these seven things, it's a lack of negotiation.
	So you either kind of shut up and do it, like go to the dinners, hang with your family, go to the Sunday dinners and so on.
	Or... You push, right?
	You sort of, as you say, you bug people to get things done.
	And these seem to me to be like two extremes along the continuum of negotiation.
	It's either passive or aggressive, if that makes any sense.
	Sure. I can see that popping up.
	Well, yeah, tell me what you get when I talk about that.
	Well, I keep thinking about the parts of my life that I do negotiate and how I've introduced that into, I should also say, I've been with my partner for, well, we've been living together for about a year and a half.
	And we've just had a baby together and he's been born.
	He's wonderful. And she's kind of had a family situation where, you know, if the kids don't tidy the rooms or put their toys away, she's going to throw them in the fire or do things like that.
	Sorry, she is your partner?
	Yes. Okay. So the parenting style is different.
	And I've come along and said, let's negotiate with the kids.
	Let's not tell them. Let's ask them.
	Let's privatize the towels that they have, so if they leave them on the floor wet, then it's their problem.
	So I've gone from basically a central control family to a free market family, which is what I always wanted to do politically.
	I thought I'd have a big revolution when I grow up, but I've done it in the family, and I'm still working on it, right?
	And negotiation is a huge part of it.
	How many kids do you have? Two and a baby.
	Two and a baby. And how old are your older kids, just roughly?
	A seven and a twelve. All right.
	Well, congratulations on the baby.
	And of course, congratulations on what I think is a great leap forward in parenting, which is to negotiate.
	So, but sorry, go on.
	So, I'm saying that there's lots of ways that I've made great leaps forward in learning about negotiation.
	Of course, I've been in the deep end because I'm not used to being a parent.
	And I think I've done a brilliant job of, you know, the girl...
	The 12-year-old is, as you have pointed out lots of times, they are like detectors for hypocrisy.
	So if I make a rule, they'll try and reciprocate it all the time.
	And sorry, you said you're not used to being parents.
	So did you move into this family?
	Are they stepkids? Yeah, yeah.
	Oh, okay, sorry. I've got one.
	Just checking. That's right.
	Yeah, sorry, you mentioned that you and your partner just had one.
	I'm just making sure I get the map straight.
	But sorry, go on. Certainly. So they want me to leave a toilet seat down.
	So I say, okay, then I want you to leave this one up.
	Or they come up with these crazy preferential rules.
	So I say, hey, that's not an ethical thing.
	That's a preferential thing.
	So how about you do this for me and I'll do that for you?
	So there's lots of ways that I do it, but it's kind of a tag-on bit.
	And what I'm used to doing is what you say, going to either extreme.
	So there'll be residuals.
	Right. So, I mean, negotiation is...
	Innate. In my experience, it's innate to children.
	They will start to negotiate as soon as they can speak, pretty much.
	You know, I'll be good if.
	I'll clean my room up if.
	If you get me this toy, I'll do X. I won't ask for this again.
	And so on, right? So children start to negotiate because they're, you know, fundamentally powerless within the family, or at least they have no innate power in the way that parents do.
	So children start negotiating very early, but that can be Annoying to parents.
	Dealing with children can be very slow, right?
	Like, I mean, I took my daughter to go...
	I had to go and pick up three things from the drugstore yesterday.
	And it took an hour and a half.
	Because she wanted to...
	You have to adjust your clock.
	Because, you know, if you and I... If we're, I don't know, 12 years old and people took us on a wind sprint through Disney World, we'd be quite upset, right?
	Because it'd be like, no, no, no, I want to see.
	I want to, you know, whatever. Or if you and I could jump into a time machine and go to the Free Society 300 years in the future, we'd want more than just a run through it.
	We'd want to stay and explore.
	And that's what the world is to my daughter.
	And so I have to really slow down.
	Like if she wants to go down and explore something, and if I have the time at all, I will have her do it.
	And I just have to To slow down and understand that everything is new and exciting for her.
	And so it's the same thing with negotiation.
	It's easier in the moment for a lot of parents to just say, look, just do it this way.
	You know, I'm in a hurry. The car's, you know, we've got to go.
	We've got to go pick up so-and-so.
	I don't have time for this.
	And to exercise authority, in a sense, or power in the moment.
	Yeah. To negotiate, as you know, it's time-tuning, right?
	You bet. So...
	So I guess what I would say is that you probably had an innate desire and capacity for negotiation as a child.
	And what happened in your family when you were growing up as a child to negotiating?
	What happened when you wanted to negotiate or tried to?
	I think I just...
	It's really hard for me to access.
	I know that you've said it's easy for you to remember just about every day of your life, but...
	It seems there's some of us who can't, who have foggy memories of what it was like.
	But I'm pretty confident that my mother and father would just say, do it.
	Come with me. And it's like what I talk about with the kids, being a second-class citizen.
	You don't matter as much.
	And I remember being really frustrated, sitting in the car, waiting for my mum, who was chatting over the fence with someone.
	And I just wanted to go home. And, you know, you start beeping the horn and stuff.
	They treat you that way and you don't have ideas and preferences of your own and so things are enforced and that's how we did things.
	Right, like you don't consult the dog if you're going to move, right?
	Yeah. Just you move and the dog deals with it somehow, right?
	Yeah. Right, right.
	So if you were to think of negotiating with your parents now, right, like you say that you don't enjoy hanging out with them, If you were to sit down with them and say, look, in order to preserve my pleasure or to reawaken my pleasure in our relationship, I need some things to change and I'd like to start negotiating that.
	If you tried to do that with your parents now, what do you think would happen?
	Well, I know because I have done that and what happens is they basically go ballistic.
	It's ridiculous. I say, I'd like to come over here more often.
	And I'd like to bring my family along.
	And I'm having a grandson for you soon.
	And that's now been in past.
	And I haven't been over there.
	I haven't introduced them to my partner or my baby for that reason.
	Because I said, I don't feel comfortable.
	If you make me feel comfortable, then I'll open up some more.
	I'm sorry, sorry. I just want to make sure I understood that.
	I apologize for interrupting.
	Sure. Did I understand you right when you said that you have not introduced your partner to your parents?
	Bingo. And I think that was a good thing.
	Because I have this discomfort and I want them to treat me well before I subject my partner to them or because I'm concerned that they'll do the same to her or that they'll do what they do to me in front of her and that'll diminish me and so I'm not even going to go there.
	I've got something to hold out and negotiate with them.
	And your recent baby?
	They don't get to see them until they fit my criteria.
	I know you're supposed to, and my mum keeps barraging me with these ideas.
	It's normal, and he's my grandson, and you're supposed to be part of our life.
	It's a family, and it's what you do, and on and on it goes.
	So I've been over there several times, and I say, look, when I'm here, I don't know if it's your fault or if it's my fault, but I feel uncomfortable, and I feel like you abuse me.
	And basically what that does is begins a listening of abuse on my father's part.
	He gets angry and starts calling me names, and he assures me that he wouldn't do that if I would just bring the family over.
	And I did bring over the young...
	I brought over the 12-year-old, and he opened up on her as well, which was a complete contradiction.
	Oh, I'm so sorry. So sorry. I mean, extended family is a great blessing, but it can be a great curse.
	I mean, as you know...
	I don't have any extended family, which means that raising my daughter is a full-time gig, right?
	Yeah. So, you know, the ease and the pleasure that extended family could bring, particularly to child raising, it's a real tragedy when it's not available.
	So, I mean, I really wanted to just express my sympathy for what is a very, very difficult and heartbreaking, really, situation to be in.
	Yeah, well, I sort of think of it as, isn't it a good thing that I've taken your advice and used it this way, rather than going over there and feeling like shit being around them and they get to play with the baby and I feel like I have no say in the matter, whereas I'm empowered because...
	I think it's up to me to decide this is my family now and I don't have to spend time with you.
	There are no unchosen obligations.
	No, please understand.
	I'm with you on the decision.
	You're making the best of a bad situation.
	I just wanted to express sympathy for the bad situation.
	It could be so much better.
	I also know from listening to earlier shows that you did spend some time with family for a while there and it wasn't rewarding.
	I'm kind of in the same situation when I go over to sister and partner and her dad and we do that on Sundays or sometimes we have them over here and it seems kind of brain-dead to me and no one else can see it.
	It's just all small talk.
	So you kind of waited that out and I'm trying to wait it out but I don't know what to do about that one either, not to distract from looking at my mum and dad.
	Right. Now, technically, there's no feeling called, you abuse me.
	So if you say, I feel that you abuse me, that's not really a feeling.
	Again, that's just annoying real-time relationship stuff, which is important to remember.
	And in what way do you experience their interactions as abusive or negative towards you?
	Well... Just on the obvious side of things, Dad yells at me and calls me names and criticizes the way I'm living my life.
	What sort of names? Well, he called me a prick the other day in front of the young one.
	Oh, man. And that's exactly the sort of thing that I'm saying, that I'm bringing up as a concern.
	And his response was to, you know, do it, which was to prove the thing.
	Sorry, what do you mean do it, prove the thing?
	Well, I say, look, I'm uncomfortable because I'm worried that you're going to call me a prick in front of my family.
	And then he calls me a prick in front of my family for suggesting such a thing.
	I see. I see. Right.
	And is this something that I'm guessing that this is not a new habit on the part of your father?
	No, but it's also true that I guess I've known this for my life and so I just don't go there.
	And now I do go there and And it happens.
	So usually I'm sort of dancing around him and I'm one of those guys who, you know, when the parents are awake and flop on the couch in the living room, but when they're coming out the driveway, bam, back to the bedroom and come home from school, straight to the bedroom, stay away from these people, come out for a meal, go back to the bedroom.
	Right. And what about your mum?
	She basically backs him up.
	She doesn't She doesn't get aggressive herself in a way that I can necessarily recognize, but she just tells me the way things should be done and what's normal, and she has, you know, her byline is, the done thing.
	And what does that mean? It's the done thing.
	It's not the done thing.
	Oh, right, right. Like, it's correct.
	It's socially acceptable.
	Yeah. Right. And would she argue that it's the done thing for a father to call his son a prick?
	Well, she'll...
	No. No. She'll say that he's under a lot of pressure and stress.
	And she'll use that argument for herself as well.
	She'll say, look, I'm really sick at the moment.
	I haven't got time for this sort of conversation, but let's just come over.
	And she offers me basically a shallow mechanical relationship.
	And I say, you know, that's not what I want.
	That's not valuable for me.
	Right. Right.
	And if you're in your, I guess, what, early 30s or something like that?
	I've gone 30 now. Oh, okay.
	For the age, yeah. Then, would it be fair to say that it's been years, if not decades, since your mom has had the time or the health or the lack of stress to have this kind of conversation?
	Because you've never had it with her, right, if I understand it rightly?
	Right. Right. Okay.
	So yeah, they've been putting it off for a long, long time and I've been saying throughout the year or at least for the last six months, you've got a grandchild coming, would you like to kind of fast track this?
	And it's like, no, I've got to I've got to see the lawyers and take care of this woman because Dad's very unhappy with the woman who's done him wrong and he's taken her to court and she's taken him to court and then he's got to get an article in the paper and then, you know, the article's published finally and so now can we, oh no, now I'm going to use the small claims tribunal and continue and I'm like, will this ever end?
	Is there any end in sight? When I die, okay, so time for me?
	Maybe after this. Oh, that's terrible.
	It's like that. But I don't have resolution.
	I don't think they're ever going to change, but I still don't have, I don't feel ready to defu and say, right, you've tried and that's that.
	What do you, like if you were to put yourself in their shoes, Rick, what do you think their strategy is?
	If we can call it a strategy in this kind of avoidance, right?
	Knowing that something's really important to you.
	Yeah. What is their strategy?
	What is it that they're hoping for?
	Hoping will occur through this kind of avoidance.
	I think that I'll just give in and turn up and be a billboard and they can tell their friends that their grandparents and you know continue these shallow lives and just for me to be advertising space and to sort of fill that hole to be the round pig in the round hole for them so they'll be complete.
	Right. So the hope is that if they just sort of weigh you down with resistance, you're going to give in and you're going to withdraw your requests for honesty in the relationship.
	And there's love bombs too.
	There's like, here, have a couch, have a fridge, have some money.
	Do you need anything? We can buy you baby goodies, you know.
	Right. Right, right.
	Okay. Bribery and cliche, you know.
	Unfortunately, the weapons that some parents have or some people have, not necessarily just parents.
	Sure. And I ask them about virtue, and they talk about wealth and material goods and...
	Providing for this, yeah.
	Yeah, and also they use it as a threat, like, you know, I'll cut you off.
	I won't let you over here anymore.
	You won't get your inheritance, that sort of thing.
	And that never crossed my mind anyway.
	I'm like, I cut myself off from that idea long ago.
	I don't live for that, and I'm not going to be in a relationship waiting for you to die so that I can get your big TV or anything.
	So they will say to you, if you don't do something that they want, that...
	They will cut you off, is that right?
	That came up, yeah. Okay.
	And can you give me the upside right now?
	I mean, as you know, no one can tell you who you should or shouldn't see, right?
	Obviously, I mean, this is a very, very personal decision.
	I'm just sort of flipping on lights randomly to see if there's anything that helps.
	So give me the upside, right?
	So if you were to make the case for seeing your parents, what would that look like?
	Oh, well, I love where they live.
	It's basically the ancestral grounds of my family.
	It's where my family settled New Zealand in that little area there and it goes back a long time and I enjoyed growing up there in the sense that I like the house and the surroundings.
	I like going for a run around the block there.
	I like the stream. I love a lot.
	I love to Go canoeing and they've got a lot of neat resources and a nice yard.
	You know, they've got lots of material things.
	And it's kind of part of the community for what that's worth.
	Sorry, which community? The community as a whole, like it goes back a while, like, you know, friends who knew my grandparents and my aunts and uncles and people who live down the road who are mutual friends with my parents and it's awkward.
	I'd like to take the baby to see my aunt or to see my friends who are basically neighbours to my parents.
	And if I did that, then they'd be like, oh, what does mum and dad think?
	Or how's your mum and dad getting on?
	And what am I to say?
	So that's part of the advantage that we have mutual friends who don't know how to ally themselves.
	Right. And also just social networking things.
	Like there's a guy down the road who...
	You know who can weld or there's a guy down the road with this big trailer that we borrow or who we lend it to and you know lots of networking things so I get to plug into that and learn about history and learn about you know when there's a flood where the ditches drain to and where's the good property to go to and you know what about the great big big whirly winds in the 70s what was that like you know that's kind of a neat resource but as people I can't count them on them for any great virtue Alright,
	and when you recite to me that you like the place, you like the extended family, and there's useful information in the surrounding brains, you're not actually talking about your parents, right?
	Nope. Well, except in the sense that that's a network that they are plugged into and I access somewhat through them.
	Yes, but I'm talking about, and I appreciate that.
	I mean, I totally understand that that's a completely valid answer, but I'm just about them as people, about them as individuals.
	You said you can't count on them for any great virtue, and I think that that's true of most people in the world.
	We can't count on them for any great virtue.
	That doesn't mean that, I mean, people can't even count on me for any great virtue sometimes, but I hope that doesn't make me a negative person.
	So, I'm just talking about Your character?
	Yeah, what is the upside?
	What do you enjoy about them as people?
	What do you like about them as people?
	I can't put my finger on anything.
	Nothing. All right.
	And that's the thing. I kind of have this perception that there must be something.
	There must be something. No, I mean, I don't think there has to be anything myself.
	I mean, I know that there's this shared history, and I know that there's this kind of embedded biological proximity memories and all of that.
	Like, we're kind of bound together through that stuff.
	But all of that is just accidental, right?
	In terms of the actual people themselves, right?
	If you can't find anything positive other than the circumstances, then...
	You know, you wouldn't really respect someone who said, I'm dating this girl because she has a boat and I like to sail.
	I don't like her as a person, but I really like being out on the ocean.
	What would you say to such a person?
	You're shallow and you're not, that's not real friendship.
	Yeah, I mean, that might be a little harsh, right?
	But you would say that you're using that person, right?
	I wouldn't go to, you're shallow, that seems to be kind of a blanket judgment.
	Well, the criterion for relations is not virtue, it's Circumstantial material.
	Yeah, this would be... I want to go out with this girl because, I don't know, she has nice hair.
	Whatever, right? I want to go out with this girl because she's the boss's daughter and it will help advance my career.
	We understand that if people are with others just for either shallow advantage or anxiety avoidance, we understand there's not good reasons, right?
	Yeah, you bet. And that's all I get out of my parents.
	But throughout my life, I've kind of had this pretense that there must be something that brings us together.
	There must be a reason. And I remember having an experience when I was in high school of, I don't know, I came around the corner and looked at my younger brother and I thought, you know, he could just be some other kid at high school who isn't my brother, but he happens to be.
	And we happen to live in the same home.
	But look at him from that perspective, and it was sort of a shock.
	So, you know, what do I really get out of them is really zip, but I just have this feeling that maybe I could give the flick to that there is something that binds us, that there is something substantial there.
	But if you've known them for 30 years and you can't come up with something...
	That's what I hold on to, I guess.
	Well... Maybe you hold on to it.
	There's nothing empirical that would come to mind, right?
	You're not going to know someone better than 30 years, right?
	I mean, it's not like 30 years and one day you get a revelation that's completely the opposite, right?
	Oh, shit. Yes, we did.
	Just bringing it back. Yellow.
	Yeah, sorry. We just dropped. So, are we still there?
	Okay. So if you've known someone for 30 years, it's not like 30 years in one day is going to be a big revelation, right?
	There we go. All right.
	You try again? Yes. All right.
	I was in the middle of saying that I feel I've got this pretense that I've been maintaining all my life that there must be something there, but we sort of don't go there.
	And when I do go there, it seems like there's nothing there after all, if that makes any sense.
	It makes total sense to me, and I was just mentioning that if you've known someone for 30 years, 30 years in one day is not going to be a big reversal, right?
	Right. I mean, even if somebody really, really wants to change and works at it for years, particularly given the, I guess, age of your parents, even if they committed tomorrow to turn it all around, it would really take them years to change.
	There's no way it's just going to happen, right?
	Of course. I mean, personality is...
	So inert, right?
	It is really, really tough to change your personality.
	So I would say that empirically, it is an illusion to say, there's something good there, I just can't think of it.
	To me, that's like someone saying, I know there's no proof for a God there, but I'm going to believe in one anyway.
	Yeah, sure. I don't intellectually believe that, but I think there must be a belief or a feeling that's kind of stuck in me that needs...
	To be exercised before I can defoo, perhaps.
	Well, and my...
	The place I would look for that, Rick, whether it's useful or not, you can let me know.
	Where I would look for that is to say, well, who does this feeling benefit?
	Right. Right, because there's the stuff that we have that is innate to us, right?
	That we sort of feel because we empirically look at things in the world and we experience people's treatment of us and so on.
	And we have those feelings. And then there are these other feelings...
	Which are kind of planted in us as exploitive hooks, you know, to pull us in and keep us close, right?
	So we tell people, we tell little children, you know, Jesus died for your sins.
	We put this monster hook into them, which benefits, of course, the powers that be, the clergy, and even the parents to some degree.
	Or, you know, that the school will teach you to love your country so that you'll pay your taxes, right?
	I mean, so patriotism are these feelings that sports teams will tell you.
	To love your sports team so they get to take your money, right?
	We're big on that over here, don't worry, we've got rugby.
	Oh, I know. I know.
	Right, so my question would be, and obviously it's not really a question because it's a pretty leading statement, but my question would be, if the feeling, you know, look for who the feeling benefits and then look to see how it was put into you.
	Yeah. And I think you've already told me, right, that your mom says it's the done thing.
	We're your parents, but I'm her grandmother.
	Like, that just magically creates value, you know?
	Yeah. But it doesn't.
	It doesn't. It doesn't create value.
	It does not create value. And so, if you're looking as to the mystery as to why you believe that there is some value there, my guess would be, or the first place I would look is to say, well...
	Who told me that there's this value?
	It's not something that I came by empirically.
	Like empirically, I understand that rocks fall down, right?
	Because that's what happens every time I drop a rock.
	But who told me this and how does it benefit them rather than me?
	And then you can look at it if that's the case.
	It's just a hook of propaganda put in to keep you close.
	People will program children to create value when no value is there because it's a hell of a lot easier than actually creating value, right?
	You bet. Well, heck, I thought if I kept going back and sitting down and having this conversation that I would have a kind of epiphany and say, oh my goodness, the emperor's got no clothes, no more parents for me.
	But that consistently doesn't happen.
	Right. And also you say even you, if you saw your mother in the street, you'd run away.
	But I don't have that experience.
	So I used to get abusive...
	In return, sort of defensively, and I would yell as well.
	But now, when I go over there, I'm pretty cool about it.
	And I don't blame my stack, but they do.
	So I'm not having any real emotional...
	I'm not afraid of them.
	I'm not angry with them. I'm just sort of studying them like kind of records that keep playing over and over and thinking, what the heck's with this?
	Right, right. And you don't come to any resolution that way, right?
	No. Right.
	Well, I'm, you know, going out on a limb and just going on instincts because you and I have only interacted, I guess, somewhat tangentially over the past couple of years.
	But I don't think that...
	This is my impression, right?
	That you're tough.
	You're a tough person, which is good, but not good sometimes, right?
	And that you are very rapid and that you are a little harsh, that you can be very abrupt.
	And I would say that the toughest thing for you, in my guess, would be what I would suggest, the way to get closure with your parents.
	Either way, right? Like either be with them or don't be with them, but don't orbit them and never feel close.
	That's the worst of everything, right?
	Either get close to them or feel the freedom to not do that, but to just kind of orbit without ever landing, without ever going out to the stars, just orbiting around this dead moon the whole time is crazy-making, right?
	And the way to solve that, in my opinion, is I think you really have to open your heart.
	I think you really have to sit down and talk about how you feel with your parents.
	And it'll be really tough because they will probably try to interfere a lot with that situation.
	Self-expression. Well, they shut it down.
	My father particularly shuts it down, starts talking, and then he goes off on tangents.
	Right, and you need to interrupt him then and tell him how you feel when he interrupts you.
	And he turns it on so much higher.
	He turns up the pressure and yells some more.
	Do you want to try playing your dad and I'll sort of show you how it might go?
	Alright then. Well, no, we don't have to if you don't feel comfortable, because I understand your resistance, but I think it might be useful.
	Alright, let's give that a crack.
	Alright. So, you know, I'm just making up stuff, because I don't know your history with your dad, right?
	So I'll just make up stuff, but you can tell me how he would interrupt.
	Dad, you know, I've been talking to you for some time now about problems that I have with our relationship.
	And I'd really, really like to talk...
	Really honestly and openly about what I feel because I really want to have a great relationship with you and mom.
	I really want to find... What are you talking about?
	What are you talking about?
	Well, if you'll hold on and let me finish, then you'll understand what I'm talking about.
	I hope. Oh my god, you're not going to talk about philosophy again.
	No, I'm going to talk about what I'm thinking and feeling.
	Look, don't use all your big words.
	I'm totally sick of it.
	I've had enough. Your mother's had enough.
	I've got problems of my own.
	Why don't you just sort yourself out and bring that boy over here so that we can meet him?
	You know, when you raise your voice and you yell at me like that, Dad, I get...
	I do not. I am not yelling.
	Yes, you are. When you do raise your voice like that, it really makes me nervous.
	It makes me scared.
	And it also makes me a little angry, because I don't think that me talking about what I think and feel is reasonable or fair for you to just start yelling within 30 seconds of me doing that.
	What are you talking about?
	Well, if you give me a chance to continue, then I can tell you what it is that I'm talking about.
	I would rather you didn't, actually.
	I've got problems of my own.
	Your mother's got cancer.
	Where were you? You didn't care.
	She doesn't need to hear all this stuff.
	Neither do I. What are you doing?
	I think if you just bring over and bring over the kids and we could break the ice and everything would be just fine.
	Why don't you do that?
	Well, I'm trying to tell you what it is that I'm thinking and feeling because I do want our relationship to improve.
	I think those things can happen and I want those things to happen.
	Which is why I'm talking about this stuff right now.
	I do want to have them over.
	I do want everyone to, you know, to be close, to be open.
	But there are things that I need to sort out in terms of me talking to you before that.
	What do you want to sort out, then?
	What do you want to sort out? Okay, first of all, I would really like it.
	I would prefer it if you, A, did not yell, and B, gave me a chance to talk without interrupting.
	Alright, I'm doing that now.
	Okay, thank you. So, for a long time, as far back as I can remember in our relationship, I've not felt that I can be honest about my thoughts and my feelings.
	Oh, you don't think I'm honest?
	Sorry, you said that you weren't going to interrupt?
	What are you saying that I'm not honest?
	I'm the most honest man there ever was.
	You said that you weren't going to interrupt.
	You made a commitment to not...
	I'm not interrupting. Go ahead.
	Get on with it, would you? You actually were interrupting.
	But we'll let it pass.
	Just try not to interrupt.
	Will you please get on with it?
	I'm trying to. So for a long time, I felt that as far back as I can remember, I felt that nervousness, right?
	Like I feel nervous even now just bringing this up.
	I feel this anxiety.
	I feel like my hands are shaking a little bit.
	My heart's pounding. I just feel this fear about just some basic honesty about problems that I have that I want to try and solve in our relationship.
	Because I have this experience.
	I feel like I'm going to flinch because when I start to talk about What I'm thinking and feeling, I'm just waiting for, you know, the interruption, this escalation, this yelling.
	And that really...
	Yeah, see, those are symptoms of Asperger's syndrome.
	And we've talked about that before.
	And what you need to do is go and see a doctor and have that sorted out because you've got the problem.
	Dad, stop talking.
	You promised that you were going to stop interrupting.
	I'm really getting angry now.
	You need to stop doing that and let me talk.
	You need to stop doing that and let me talk.
	Can you understand that?
	I am getting angry and I'm being honest about getting angry.
	You promised me three times to stop interrupting me.
	That is not going to help if you can't even keep your word to me For 30 seconds.
	Alright, I'm leaving the room now.
	This is enough. If you leave the room, there are going to be some significantly negative problems in our relationship.
	Don't threaten me. Don't threaten me.
	You need more of me than I do of you.
	I'm telling you a fact.
	If you leave the room without listening to me, I'm going to be very hurt and very upset.
	I already am. Your brother does not act like this.
	Your brother comes over here all the time.
	He has meals with us. He owes me money.
	He borrows things from me.
	I go over to his house whenever I like.
	He uses the laundry, washes his clothes, and he doesn't have any problems.
	It's just you. And I've told you.
	I've looked this up. It's a spirit of surges, and you need to go and get some help for this.
	You need to stop having these outbursts, and I've done everything I can for you.
	I don't know why you keep coming back here.
	I've got problems of my own.
	Your mother's got problems of her own, and you're just making things worse.
	I feel like we're hanging on a cliff edge here, Dad.
	I really do. I'm really trying to be as honest and as open as possible.
	I feel like our whole familial relationship is hanging by a thread, Dad.
	I really feel that. I really want...
	To find a way to communicate with you.
	Sorry, you're interrupting me again.
	I'll let you talk without interrupting you.
	I really feel this fear.
	I feel this real fear like I'm just hanging off a cliff edge.
	And I feel this great anxiety that things are just going to snap between us.
	That's a Spurges thing.
	You know, I think you can have these feelings when somebody yells at you and interrupts you when you're trying to be honest.
	Yeah, I think that that's not...
	I don't yell and I don't interrupt your prick.
	That is not what happens.
	You need to sort your life out.
	You need to get those kids over here.
	You need to stop bumming around, going to university, hitchhiking around the world.
	Just settle down and get a job, for goodness sake.
	You're wasting your time.
	You've got this problem and I'm trying to help you and you're not listening.
	Stop coming at me with these big ideas and big words and big theories.
	So, is it my understanding, and this is a very important question, and I hope, I mean, I won't tell you what to do, but this is a very, very important question.
	Is it my understanding that you never want me to talk about what I'm actually thinking and feeling?
	Like if I'm over here doing what I'm doing now, that I'm not welcome?
	Good right. Right.
	So if I'm like my brother and I don't talk about the things that are going on for me or problems that I have with you or with mom, I'm welcome here as long as I'm not really here.
	Yes, yes, for goodness sake.
	We want you over here.
	Tell me more about that because I really want to understand how it is that you want this relationship to go.
	Tell me how I could be a great son to you.
	Just come over here and we offer you food and you can come and have tea and the kids can play in the yard and your mother will be happy.
	Your mother needs this because she's sick and she's not feeling very well and I'd like to have people around.
	That's why. That's for her.
	I want you to bring her over here.
	You're stressing her out and she doesn't need more stress in her life, alright?
	You are causing trouble.
	Okay, so I should come over here and if I'm feeling something that is not pleasing to you or to mom, I should never bring it up.
	Is that fair to say?
	No! Well, just stop talking and do it.
	Commit to it. Do it.
	And bring those kids over here.
	The only reason I'm angry is because you're not bringing your family over here.
	I haven't even met these people.
	I've got a grandson and he hasn't come over here.
	Why are you holding out?
	Would you please just do it and we can cut this crap now?
	Okay, I understand that.
	That's a separate conversation, but what I'm trying to understand is if I'm If I'm feeling or things that you don't like, or if I'm having thoughts that you don't like, I should not bring those up if I'm here, right?
	Well, that's not my business.
	That's your business, and I don't need to talk about that.
	I don't want to hear about it.
	Okay, so you don't want to hear about the thoughts that I've been talking about.
	I'm trying to understand what your expectations are in this relationship.
	I don't know what you're talking about.
	It's a waste of time.
	Okay, so even trying to discuss what the standards are in our relationship is a waste of time.
	Trying to understand what your expectations are is a waste of time.
	I'm sorry? Yes, it's a waste of time.
	All you need to do is bring those people over here and start being a family.
	And being a family means to not talk about what I'm thinking and feeling.
	You can talk about whatever you like.
	No, actually, you just told me that I kind of wasn't welcome if I was talking about this sort of stuff, and you've told me at least a dozen times.
	Well, I don't want to hear about that.
	I don't want to hear about any of that stuff, but you can talk to your mother.
	Okay, so I'm not welcome to talk about what I like?
	No. Yes, you're welcome to talk about what you like, but I don't want to hear about that stuff.
	I can't do that.
	You're like telling me to go north and south at the same time.
	Which is it? Am I free to talk about what I like, or am I not?
	Yeah, yeah. Talk about what you like.
	That's fine. Okay, but then will you then continue to sort of yell and interrupt?
	I do not.
	I don't interrupt.
	You go ahead and talk. Do it now.
	Get it on with. I'm sorry?
	You just told me like a few minutes ago that I shouldn't talk about this stuff.
	You are really annoying me.
	You're winding me up. You're using ridiculous big words.
	I don't want to hear about that stuff.
	Can this end now?
	Can we get over this? Absolutely.
	I'm just looking for the rules.
	You don't want me to be around just silent because you're angry.
	That would be pretty cowardly.
	I'm not going to not talk because you get pissed off at it, Dad.
	I'm not going to shut myself up just because you get angry.
	That would be pretty pathetic.
	So what I'm looking for are the rules that I can follow or at least that I can understand about what the fuck this relationship means to you.
	Am I not supposed to talk about things that you don't like?
	If that's a rule, be a man and tell me that that's the rule.
	Who are you calling? I think I'm not a man.
	Is that what you're saying? Are you going to tell me what the rule is so that I can understand what the parameters are for me being here?
	Because you say I'm free to talk about what I want, but then when I try to talk about what I want, You get mad at me and say, you don't want to hear it.
	So I'm just trying to understand, what is the rule that I'm supposed to follow?
	Well, I'm leaving the room.
	This is enough. Go on.
	All right. Well, I think I'm done too.
	I got to tell you, your dad's a scary guy.
	I suppose so. Don't you think?
	It just goes round and round, and he goes off on tangents, and he leaves the room.
	You don't get any further than that.
	Right, right. And he keeps contradicting himself, right?
	Big time. And for goodness sake, he tells me that I should bring my family over to see him, and he is completely estranged from all of my aunts and uncles.
	He won't go near them, which is an enormous contradiction.
	Right. So, how did you feel during the conversation?
	I just felt like I was acting like a fool, like I was being evasive.
	You were fucking great, I've got to tell you.
	Everybody is an Oscar-winning actor.
	You were really, really good.
	Yeah, wow. And I'm really sorry that you're that good, because it's terrible.
	Yeah. It's terrible.
	I check myself for being more moderately evasive than that, and to not do it is hard to resist stopping myself from just nonsense.
	Right. Yeah, I mean, he's a scary guy.
	You know, he is scary.
	Yeah. And really frustrating.
	Yeah. He's very evasive, and it's this crazy contradiction stuff, like he'll yell and interrupt and then say, I don't yell and interrupt.
	Oh, yeah. And then he'll say, okay, go ahead, I won't interrupt.
	And then he'll interrupt and then say he didn't, right?
	Yes. Yeah, well, that's some crazy shite, I tell you.
	That's really nutty. That is really nutty, horrible stuff.
	And now, this is from my perspective, and it's nothing to do with your experience, but this would be my, you know, I obviously tried to be honest and open, and then I got angry, and I tried to be sort of expressed about that anger.
	And then I pointed out the contradictions and I asked for the rules, right?
	Because if he were to just say to be openly, if your dad were to say to you, obviously openly, like, no, you're never allowed to talk about what you're actually thinking and feeling, be like, okay, well, that's a rule.
	At least I can go home and mull that over and say, here's the choice that's actually on the table before me.
	Yeah. But that's not what happens, right?
	Because he doesn't want to say that openly.
	No. Right.
	He also, you know, it's interesting because...
	And I don't know what you would feel in those situations, but I really did get the sense that he was kind of pushing me off a cliff.
	Yeah. You know, like I'm standing before this and he just keeps kicking me in the back.
	I have my own style of aggressive motivation and I figured that out separately to watching the way that he interacts and it's scary to see that he does what I do at my worst, trying to bully people into giving up answers or into agreeing with what he sees.
	Sure, sure. Yeah, I mean to me Yeah.
	because it would be very clear that he simply would not be at all amenable to any kind of conversation around honesty.
	Yeah.
	Well, if he'll bring up his own standard of honesty and start recounting his honest dealings in the past to try and prove it.
	Oh, yeah. No, I got, he tried that in, I guess you tried that in the roleplay for sure, so I can see that.
	My experience of that conversation would be that, like, I'm trying to push my hand through a fucking cheese grater, slowly, you know, with a hammer.
	Like, there's just no way to do it other than get yourself all bloodied up, right?
	And my experience with that conversation would be, okay, so that is the parameter, right?
	The parameter is, I can't talk about what I think and feel.
	I just can't. But that's not an acknowledged rule in the family.
	Because no family is ever going to want to say, I want you here, but you can't ever talk about what you think and feel.
	Because that's too obvious a contradiction.
	I want you here, but not here, at the same time.
	Sure. Right.
	So for me, I would walk away from that saying, well, I even expressed that I felt our relationship was hanging by a thread.
	And your dad, I mean, again, you did fantastically.
	Your dad, I'm sure, would experience that as a threat.
	But it was an honest statement of how I felt in the moment.
	Like, I'm being pummeled here.
	I can't be in a relationship where I can't even bring up.
	And I, as you, didn't even really get to bring up anything.
	Right? That's right.
	And so for me, it would be like, okay, so this is a conversation.
	This is a quote relationship where I simply cannot be honest about what I think and feel.
	Yeah. Where I'm going to get goaded and provoked and rejected and frustrated and enraged and confused and bewildered and attacked and, you know, scorned and guilted.
	I mean, when you listen back to this, Rick, you might want to write down The incredible array of emotionally manipulative tools your dad has in his arsenal.
	Oh, your mom, and you're sick, and the Asperger's, and you've got these big words, and I'm an honest guy.
	It's just dazzling.
	I mean, the guy's a ninja. Yeah.
	Well, I don't know. It comes across as kind of clumsy to me when I'm there, but he's got lots of tools, yeah.
	Right, right. Yeah, like I didn't say he's a ninja with a chainsaw, but he's still a ninja with a chainsaw.
	Sure. And so, to me, what I would do, again, coming out of that conversation, is I would go home and I would just sit and think about it.
	And I would sit and think and say, first of all, I would wait for a call.
	And I would wait for a call where, you know, maybe your dad cooled off and maybe he talked to your mom or whatever.
	And your mom said, listen, he was trying to talk to you about something important and he told you that things were very bad between you and you stormed out of the room.
	You need to go back and fix this.
	You need to apologize to him.
	Now, I'm guessing that's not family dynamic.
	Well, he does come back. He returns every time. I'm sorry?
	He comes back in after about five minutes and pretends that nothing's happened.
	Well, I wouldn't wait for...
	I mean, again, this is just me.
	If I would walk out on him. I wouldn't wait for that.
	I would just go home and say, I'm going to wait for a phone call.
	I'll wait a day, right?
	Because after a day, it's, you know, nobody...
	It's either a day, and usually it's 10 minutes, but it's either a day...
	Or it's not going to happen, right?
	In my experience, but then again, it could be different for everyone.
	And I would sit there and say, okay, so no call.
	I'm guessing no call would come.
	No call has come.
	I have a choice, right?
	And everyone has this choice. And no one can tell anybody what the right choice is.
	But I have this choice. Clearly, honesty is not an option in this relationship.
	Because there's no call.
	There's no apology. Yeah.
	So if honesty is not an option in this relationship, I'm capable, everyone's capable, you can go over and just conform.
	You can bring your partner, you can bring your kids, you can go to the family gatherings, you can hang that howdy-doody smile on your face as long as you want.
	That's a valid option, right?
	I don't think it's a good option, but it certainly is a possibility, right?
	Right. Or, you can not bring your family over, you can just go over and have tea and talk about nothing and go home, right?
	But that probably won't work because they'll bring up the grandkids and the partner and so on, right?
	Yeah. Or, you can go back...
	Sorry, go ahead. Do I just need to...
	I've been through this three or four times now.
	And I still haven't come up with that.
	Is it just a matter of going over there and witnessing it again until I can see that it's never going to change?
	Well, tell me, was there anything different in what I was doing than what you've been doing?
	No. Right.
	But you said that you didn't feel fear.
	That's true. And yeah, you expressed fear.
	Oh, he's scary. I don't get angry, I don't get afraid either.
	Right. And that's what I mean by being vulnerable, right?
	Like when I was doing this, I feel like we're hanging by a thread.
	I was reaching out to him. Like I do that with real eye contact.
	I might have tears in my face.
	I'm like desperate for a connection.
	I'm desperate for, you know, like we're hanging by a thread here.
	You know, help me help us, right?
	You know, whatever, right? Supplicate.
	Beg. I mean, beg.
	You know, pray for connection.
	Do anything to try and get that connection across.
	I don't want it that badly, though.
	I don't want it that badly.
	There's nothing to be desperate for.
	I couldn't do any eye-pleading like he's got something I really want.
	Well, but I think you need to.
	And I think the reason that you need to is so you can get closure.
	Because right now, you're in limbo land, right?
	You're in the null zone.
	But I can't fake that.
	I need to actually be desperate and actually be bleeding.
	Absolutely, don't fake.
	But you're going back there because you think that there may be some value.
	So try and get that value.
	Don't have it as a theoretical thing.
	Try and get that value.
	Try and do everything you can.
	Open your heart. Be angry.
	Be upset.
	Be frightened. Be everything emotionally to try and connect at that level.
	Try and get that value.
	And when I don't get a response and I get the same stuck record as always, then it's going to sink in for me.
	Well, then it's going to...
	Right. You know, and it's not like I'm sitting here saying, go stab yourself with a knife, right?
	But what I'm saying is that if you go out and you're open and you're vulnerable, and I wouldn't do this without the support of a therapist, but that's, you know, that's my constant refrain.
	So you can, I know you didn't have a good experience with a therapist, but that would be my suggestion.
	But Go out with your heart open.
	With your heart open.
	You know, with really wanting to find that value.
	With really wanting to solve this problem.
	You know, stop at nothing to try and connect.
	Because I... It really hurt me when he...
	Even roleplaying.
	I was... I was scared. I was angry.
	I was frustrated. And then I was hurt.
	You know, when he just up and left.
	And I was... I was scared that I was a bad person for causing your mom stress.
	You know, all of the... I was really going through quite a rollercoaster there.
	And I think that...
	That level of emotional openness to yourself, you know, I think is really, really important in terms of getting closure.
	I think that no matter what happens with your family, that's a level of vulnerability that you want in your relationship.
	So you don't sort of notice a day later that you did something to piss off your partner or whatever, but you'd sort of feel it in the moment.
	That I think would be a great leap forward for you.
	Most definitely. Well, I can do that, go back again and I like how you say that, you know, Jack, alright, vulnerability, I can do that!
	I think that's very confident. It's going to be tough, but I think it would be a great thing to do.
	I don't find it tough, though.
	I've, you know, I left home when I was 21 and I'd had enough and sort of breaking out of prison and jumped in the car and drove to the other island and didn't come back more or less until now.
	Right. I mean, like, you know, about 10 years down the track when I came back from the States.
	And so I haven't had them in my life.
	I didn't want them. Well, but see, that's not vulnerability.
	And I'm not saying that was the wrong thing to do, Lord knows, right?
	But that's not the same as really needing something from them.
	But I'm not one of these people, like my brother is, who, you know, it's the dumb thing, hang around your parents to be your parents.
	I've never seen it that way.
	No, while you think for yourself.
	I've never seen it that way. You don't let social momentum determine your values.
	I mean, that's not philosophical, right?
	That's just conformance, right? Culture is the law of fools.
	Yeah, absolutely. Okay.
	Well, I can do that, but it doesn't seem like...
	I don't know how I can do it differently than the way I've been doing it so far.
	To feel. You said you're not afraid.
	You don't feel anger.
	You don't feel fear. You don't feel need.
	You don't feel yearning. But then why are you there if you feel nothing, right?
	Of course you feel. We all feel something about our parents.
	We all feel very strong things about our parents, right?
	I mean, I'm of the age where, you know, one of these days, my mom's gonna be dead.
	You know, she's old.
	She's really old. And, I mean, I haven't seen her in forever.
	But I'm still gonna feel something when she dies, of course.
	We feel something. We feel things about our parents very strongly.
	We can't help it. I mean, we shouldn't help it.
	It's very important.
	So when you say that you're around trying to be honest with your parents and you don't feel anything, I think that's keeping yourself too guarded.
	And I think that's why you can't get to closure.
	I guess so. And through that, you'd be more emotionally available to your children, more empathetic to your partner.
	Like, I think it's a good thing to open your heart in that way.
	And I'm not saying you're some kind of closed-off wall or anything, but I was just really struck when you said that you didn't feel things when you were talking about these things with your family, because I sure as hell did, and I'm not you.
	And again, that doesn't mean that you should.
	I just kind of imagine that somebody wouldn't have strong feelings one way or the other about this kind of confrontation.
	Well, it's really easy to break it down mechanically and see that they're just employing the same things they always do and saying the same things they always say, and it doesn't stack up to any simple critical analysis.
	So how can I take that emotionally?
	How can I be thinking there's something wrong with me anymore?
	I used to yell and get angry, but now I don't know how to access any feelings about that.
	I don't see them as winding me up.
	Right, right, right.
	No, and I appreciate and understand that, right?
	I mean, given how heavy-handed your dad is, and how aggressive he is, and how fundamentally confused he is, and confusing.
	I guess not really confused, because it's all part of a consistent stratagem.
	But I think that...
	And look, the thing is, I mean, obviously, don't take my word for anything, right?
	What I would do is sit down with your partner and say, listen, do you think that my heart is open to you?
	Do you find me emotionally available, to use a cliched term, right?
	With your kids and say, you know, what do you think of daddy's heart?
	Do you think that I'm there for you?
	Do you experience sympathy and empathy from me?
	Just get the feedback.
	Talk to your friends. Talk to anybody who you feel you can trust with this question because it's a sensitive question.
	But ask people, what is it like to be around me?
	Do you feel that my emotions are available?
	Do I seem closed off?
	Do I seem distant? Do I seem unemotional?
	Am I too analytical? Am I too reserved?
	Am I too withdrawn? Am I hard to read emotionally?
	I'm back. Oh, sorry?
	What happened? I think I was about 30 seconds missing then.
	Oh, sure, no problem. I'm just saying to ask the people in your life whether you're available emotionally, whether they feel that they can understand your thoughts and feelings, or whether you seem kind of walled off and distant and so on.
	Just ask those people.
	And if you find that people do tell you that you seem kind of distant or mechanical or over-intellectual or whatever, then I think that would be a good thing to open up.
	And maybe you don't start With your parents, you could start with a therapist or with your partner, but I think working to open up those parts of your heart or your soul that have been a little closed off because of your family history, I think would be a great, great project and a great gift to your baby.
	Well, yeah, well, I totally want it, but I don't see what steps I can take to get it.
	I mean, there are no people in my life that I'm that intimate with apart from my partner and perhaps the kids.
	Right, but you can start with your partner and you can say, what's it like to be around me emotionally?
	Like, what is it like to be around my heart?
	Right, I think those are basic questions I think that are really important to get feedback on.
	Yeah, well, that's no trouble.
	We have plenty of conversations along those lines.
	And I know that we didn't get to your other six, but I mean, this I think is related to them as well.
	Well, I was kind of hoping for that penny-dropping, lightbulb-goes-on moment that some people have in conversations with you and I still don't quite understand the childhood that I had and I don't understand why the therapist kept doing what he did and didn't want to address what I did.
	I was hoping to make some nifty leaps forward and I don't think I've got anything that I didn't have before, have I? Well, I don't know either.
	I mean, I think that listening to our roleplay would be helpful for you, but I would say that fundamentally, your father, I can't speak for your mother, your roleplay of your father, I would speak to that, is that hostility towards curiosity about the self, right, was very key.
	In that conversation, that your existence as a thinking and feeling human being seems to threaten your father quite deeply.
	Yeah. Well, I can see that about him.
	What about my mum, though?
	Because she's not the good cop.
	She's in the room and she backs him up.
	I don't know what she says privately, but to me, she defends him.
	And when I say something like, but you said you wouldn't get angry and then you just yelled and swore and called me names.
	And then now I'm sort of like looking at her.
	Do you see that?
	Or is it just my perception?
	She doesn't back me up.
	She backs him up and moves right along.
	Sure. Maybe should I try for a relationship with her?
	Or is it she, you know, by doing that, she's in the same boat?
	Well, again, I would say sit down and talk about how that makes you feel.
	Yeah. Try and separate them.
	Well, yeah, I think for sure that might be helpful, right?
	Because your relationship is not with parental Hydra, but with each individual, right?
	Yeah. Well, okay.
	I suspect we're running out of time now.
	Is there anything you can say about how I should handle these uncomfortable Sundays that I have with the extended family who, you know, they watch funniest home videos and they watch Wipeout and they laugh at people in Afghanistan being blown up and it just ips me out and I have nothing to say to them.
	I ask them what they've been doing in their lives and they And I say, have you done what you said you were going to do last week?
	Oh no, we haven't actually done any of that.
	That's just icky and no one quite shares my perception about that.
	It isn't herself, but she's happy to go along with it and wants me to be there.
	Well, you don't have to be there.
	You don't have to be there, right?
	I mean, a relationship is not a prison sentence of mutual obligation.
	You don't, I mean, in my opinion, you don't have to be there.
	You don't. I mean, because if you're not there, there's no point pretending to be there, right?
	If you're just, you know, like clawing at the door in your head, then you're not there, right?
	So to be there for the sake of appearance is ridiculous.
	In my opinion, you're completely free to say, ah, This is how I started with my wife.
	I said, look, I can't go to your parents' place because you shut down and I have nothing to talk about with these elderly Greek people who don't speak English.
	So I just feel like I've landed in some place where I can't talk with anyone.
	And so we either need to connect with these people or I'm not going.
	Because I can't go and not be there.
	And then have you come spaced out out of the place afterwards, right?
	So we either have to find a way to actually have a relationship with these people, or something else has to happen, but I can't continue with the status quo.
	Yeah. And it's also not what I want my kids to see.
	Yeah, totally. I mean, I want them to have some respect for me as a father, as a human being.
	And that means not dragging them over to some place where I'm Bored and insulted and disgusted out of my gourd.
	What am I going to teach them?
	I'm going to teach them that the peer pressure is everything and you should do everything for the sake of appearances and getting along and the connection, intimacy, honesty and integrity mean nothing!
	Yeah, absolutely. I'm totally keenly aware of all of that, but I feel like if I don't go, and sometimes I don't, and I boycotted Christmas last year because they were having some family members over who they were having a conflict with, and there were secrets that they didn't know, and no one was supposed to say anything, but everyone knew everything, and I was like, nah, I'm not even going to go.
	So I just went for a big long walk until they'd finished Christmas dinner, and then I went back.
	But I feel like I'd be Doing that again is, and the perception of that for everyone is, oh, Rick didn't want to come.
	He doesn't believe in Christmas. He's just chucking a big sook and having a big boycott because he doesn't want to hang out with us, the big wimp.
	Well, no, that's another option, which is you go and you're honest.
	Yeah. Right?
	You say, really? You people are laughing at people getting blown up in Afghanistan?
	Tell me about that because that seems a little cruel to me, but, you know, tell me more.
	Yeah, I said exactly that.
	And then when I leave the house, they do it behind my back and say, what an idiot.
	And God.
	Yeah, but then you go back and you say, so I hear that you called me an idiot after I left, so tell me more about that.
	Yeah. I mean, I would not put down the option to just go there and be quiet and do things that you find.
	It's not just boredom, right?
	I mean, you're Sounds like you're morally kind of repulsed, right?
	Totally. Well, how am I supposed to get in on that?
	Because they're talking about the weather and they're talking about, you know, funniest time videos and someone's hit themselves in the crotch and I can't relate to that.
	I can't get in on that.
	It's okay to be bored from time to time in social engagements.
	Sure, right? I mean, I think that's just sometimes you have to go and And do stuff for your partner.
	But if it's every week for a couple of hours, then I think you kind of want to model better behavior for your kids and also do stuff that you're proud of.
	So I would say, look, the option of me going there and biting my tongue for three hours every week, that's not an option to me.
	So I'm either going to be honest or I'm not going to go.
	If I'm going to go, then I'm going to be honest with people.
	And if it causes problems, I'm sorry.
	But I'm going to be honest.
	Or I cannot go.
	But the option to continue what is going on is not.
	But what do I say? Because I can't relate to them.
	I don't want to talk about what they're talking about.
	It's like going into a five-year-old finger painting.
	But you've got to understand real-time relationships, right?
	I don't know if you've read the book or not.
	But if you haven't, what you do is you go and you say, I find that I can't relate to you people because you talk about the weather and this and that.
	And I feel kind of bored and anxious.
	That's the honesty of what you're actually feeling in the moment, right?
	Sure. Okay.
	Yeah, I can do that.
	Well, talk about it with your partner first, right?
	It's her family, right? Might be an idea.
	But, yeah, you're not obligated to go.
	It's not a contract that you signed.
	I don't think that it's a good thing.
	And it may be harmful for your partner that you go, even if she wants you to.
	Yeah, could be. Might be enabling something.
	Yeah, you could be enabling something that's quite negative, right?
	I mean, so, yeah, I would just, you know, just be really honest.
	But remember that the solution to people's anxiety is not for you to change your behavior, right?
	So if you say to your partner, I'm either going to be honest or I'm not going to go to these things.
	And she says, well, you have to come.
	And you keep asking her questions.
	And it comes down to because I'll feel anxious if you don't.
	Well, we're not put here to bandage each other's insecurities.
	We're put here to be honest and virtuous, I believe, right?
	So it's not your job to deal with her anxiety around her family by conforming to what they want.
	You already had enough of that growing up as a kid, and you get enough of that from your own family, right?
	Don't you think it would end up them just labeling me kind of a lone wolf, doesn't want to turn up, doesn't want to socialize, he wants to skip Christmas and be a little, have a snit?
	Absolutely. And if you want to live a life where people that you find morally repugnant might label you in negative ways, and therefore you will conform to the judgment of people you don't respect, you can have that life, for sure.
	I'm concerned that I'm going to lose my family, and my son and the kids are going to be over there on Sundays, and I'm not.
	They sort of get them, and I don't.
	Well, but you see, this is because you're looking to the end of a negotiation.
	You don't know what the end of that negotiation is going to be, right?
	You grew up with ultimatums, right?
	But we're not talking about ultimatums, right?
	We're talking about a negotiation.
	I feel this. How can we find a win-win solution?
	Can we go, like, can you stand it for an hour?
	Can we go for an hour or 90 minutes instead of three hours or four hours?
	Can we do something that I really like the day before to balance it out?
	There's some way to find a win-win negotiation with your partner and your children so that you don't end up standing in the rain looking in the window while everyone's eating food, right?
	There is a way to find a win-win solution to this problem but you have to be patient.
	It's going to take some time and you have to keep talking about what you think and feel and looking for the common ground where you can find a way That you can get more of what you want.
	So it's not every week you dread this thing that goes on and on.
	So you can get more of what you want.
	And then you're teaching your children what negotiation looks like.
	And I think that's a huge gift that really, I think, breaks the cycle from where you came from.
	Right. Well, I think I already knew that I was going to do that.
	But you've galvanized my resolve to have some fun times with extended families and parents.
	So I'll go ahead and do that.
	All right. And, oh gosh, are you totally out of time now?
	Because what have I done wrong with the therapy?
	Okay. Therapists.
	I went to university and I tried a couple there because it was nicely subsidized.
	Thank you. And then because my mum and dad were hell-bent on having me diagnosed with Asperger's, they flipped me some therapy cash.
	And I said, I don't think that that's what he's going to find.
	I think he's going to find that it's relationship stuff and self-esteem stuff.
	And I'm looking forward to that.
	And I said, fine, fine, go ahead and do it.
	So I did it, and this expensive guy, he came up with this idea that your past has nothing to do with the way things are going on now, and he kept on talking about procrastination and telling me that next session we'll deal with this, but it never came, and I just had to end it.
	Sorry, your therapist said that your past didn't have anything to do with the challenges you were facing as an adult?
	Yeah. He had a whole quote from some There's a psychologist called Skinner, who I'd not heard of, about umbrellas and bricks.
	Something to do with an umbrella and a brick having nothing to do with each other in the same way that your past has nothing to do with what's going on now.
	Listen, B.F. Skinner is a behavioral psychologist from the 1960s.
	His theories have been largely discredited, and I don't know if you've seen the recent interview that I did with Dr.
	Shanker from York University, he's a professor of psychology and philosophy.
	The latest scientific research, not people's opinions, B.S. Skinner didn't have access to the stuff they have now because it's like almost 50 years ago.
	The latest scientific research says that 80% of how we turn out is our parenting.
	80% of how we turn out is our family environment.
	And I'll put the link in.
	Will I ask this guy to please?
	Yeah, sure. I asked this guy if we could go back and do it that way and he kept saying no and I played a little extract from one of your podcasts where you explore for a guy his family environment and she basically freaked out and largely due to that she didn't want to be my therapist anymore and she strongly suggested I talk to one of her colleagues so I did that.
	So yeah, I don't know man, it's She didn't want to do it that way.
	The science supports...
	The science completely supports what we've been talking about in this conversation, like Freedom in Radio as a whole.
	The science supports it.
	And there's an interview with a guy who's a total expert in the field.
	And he says that it's the first couple of years of life and it's really hard to change the trajectory after that.
	And so it's not impossible, right?
	Which is why I don't think we're holding out any snake oil stuff here.
	but the science is not with this person.
	And a therapist should not freak out when you share something personal and then send you off to another therapist.
	That's not good therapy. I'm going to really go out on a limb here and say that's shitty therapy.
	Even if she doesn't believe it's useful, she should be curious about why it's important to you.
	I'm sorry about that, but there are better therapists out there.
	Yeah, well, it's cost me a lot of money so far, and what the hell am I supposed to do?
	Because I don't want to repeat the experience for a fourth time, and I did go through the yellow pages, and I picked this guy because he told me he was interested in the past, and he'd gone through it, and it had been useful for him, and then this stuff comes up, and how do I find the right person then?
	Well, that's a good question, and it may be a question for another time, but I will, I don't know, I think there's a podcast around ways in which you can look for a good therapist, and I'll see if I can dig that up and send it to you.
	Alright then. Well, let's leave it there then, shall we?
	Thank you very much. You're welcome.
	I will send you a copy of this.
	Have a listen and let me know if it's okay to post.
	But yeah, I mean, I know it's not hugely satisfying you didn't get the aha moment, but that's okay.
	Sometimes it comes a little later and sometimes it comes not at all.
	But as long as there's some greater understanding of the issues, I think it's worthwhile.
	I sure hope so and I'm totally motivated and committed to following this stuff up.
	I just started with the economics and the politics and there was the odd annoying psychology one and then I sort of opened my eyes to that.
	You hooked me in and podcast 183 I think it was when you did the big turnaround.
	And also may I ask, I'm not sure my account is working and I'm not sure why but it was, if I flick you a link to that, Can we help sort that out?
	I don't know if I was, maybe I was booted off for being too aggressively motivating there.
	Yeah, if it's aggressive, it's not motivating, but send me the link and I'll look into it.
	Thank you. All right then.
	Thank you, sir. Keep me posted about how it goes, man, and I'll talk to you soon.
	Yeah, sure. Bye.

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