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Nov. 15, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:41:45

1508 Sunday Show 15 Nov 2009

The return of Rodzilla, updated throughts on parenting, and don't do drugs!

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	Well, thank you everybody so much for joining us.
	This is Sunday, the 15th of November, 2009.
	We are back from BlogTalk.
	We did take up residency in BlogTalk for, I think, two, two and a half months, something like that.
	And I really did quite enjoy it.
	But there was a couple of reasons why I wanted to swap out of it.
	Technically, it was a challenge, though this may not be the right time for saying it here.
	But it was...
	The whole point was to try and sort of reach out to new listenership and in analyzing the visitors to the FDR site, which I do from time to time to find out where our friends are coming from.
	I did not find that we were getting new listenership.
	And, you know, even with a fair amount of pumping the well, priming the well, I suppose, we didn't get more than a couple of dozen people watching live and the downloads were pretty low and the number of people who watched it on YouTube were pretty low.
	And, you know, I... It's not that pleasant to stand and look at a camera for two hours.
	I like to ramble.
	I like to roam. I like to scratch my head, let's say.
	And so it's really nice to be invisible.
	And so that's why we have swapped over.
	And I'm certainly open to suggestions about ways that we might be able to improve that.
	But I think that the Sunday show, for me, has always worked best in audio format.
	And... I also didn't like the people waiting to talk thing because sometimes we want to get into some in-depth issues on the Sunday show and that didn't seem to work quite so well.
	So anyway, enough housekeeping.
	Thank you so much to the people who have offered to help out with the website redesign.
	And I guess I have a vague draft up and running and we will continue to poke at it this week.
	And I would like to certainly get it swapped over by the Christmas.
	So please let me know if you wanted to help at all.
	Particularly what's needed is people who have even a smidgen of visual style sense, which I was born with some gifts, let's say, but visual style sense was not one of them in any way, shape, or form.
	And so if you have skills in that area, that would be great.
	Flash, design, all that kind of good stuff, if you could let me know.
	That would be most, most, most appreciated.
	And so I'm not going to do an introduction.
	I mean, I have a couple ready to roll, but I wanted to get caught up with a good friend, Mr.
	R, who's back in his house after some time.
	I believe he went with the clown, the guy with the clown nose, up to the space station and was incognito or out of range for a little while.
	Are you on?
	Can you get us caught up?
	What's new? Hello, Steph.
	Can you hear me? I sure can.
	Okay, how's the volume?
	The volume is delicious.
	Okay, terrific.
	So, how long has it been?
	A year and a half or so?
	Yeah, because I mean, I guess we met, it's almost two years ago that we met in Miami, right?
	Yep. Yeah, that's right.
	And you were around a little bit after that, and then...
	Strange. I mean, you met a fine woman and in a prioritization matrix that leaves me completely baffled because I spent more time with her than with your geeky online philosophy friends.
	I'm not saying I understand it.
	I'm just saying empirically that's what happened.
	So I think that the time has come to justify this complete opposite.
	I kind of wandered off.
	Oh, yeah. Sorry, while I was just talking?
	Drool, drool. So, yeah, going back to the theme that we visited on a couple of years ago, at least.
	You guys really do suck as a cult, because...
	Right? I mean, I haven't gotten one demand to return to the fold.
	I haven't been threatened to return him.
	Yeah? That was Amanda, by the way.
	Hello. Oh, hi. Hi.
	Very pleased to meet you. We've never talked...
	Did we talk before? I can't remember.
	No. I don't think that we got wrong.
	Right. Well, but that's because you don't realize that Amanda is a grand wizard in the cult, and so you really hadn't escaped at all.
	She's the one who, when anybody looks like they're wandering, she sips into something a little more comfortable, sidles up to them, and then nabs them.
	That used to be me, but we found that it was really more horrifying than effective.
	Sorry, go on. That's a really tricky way to keep...
	It really is. You know, if you donate, I'll never come back in this outfit.
	Take my pants for the love of all that's holy.
	Yeah, so anyway, I guess the last year and a half or so have gone by very quickly.
	You can see by my little icon in the Skype window that I have a beard now.
	So that's the only change that's happened, I guess.
	Sorry, just for those who don't, No, Rod.
	When he says he has a beard, he doesn't mean Amanda.
	They can't see the icon, and they know that you're a seductively sexy man, and so they just might be confused.
	That's all I'm saying. I've been accused of that before.
	You don't even have the British accent, let me tell you.
	Things have gone pretty well over the last year and a half.
	I've been At times, insanely busy with work.
	This last summer, we went camping an awful lot.
	I think we went out about 10 times.
	So, lots and lots of fun doing that.
	Let's see. Mandy's been reading through your books.
	I think she just finished Real Time Relationships recently.
	And we've had discussions about that stuff, which have been really good, interesting discussions.
	Let's see. The relationship itself is generally very positive.
	Communication flows well, like better than I've ever had in any relationship before.
	There's obviously challenges when it comes to RTR-ing and stuff like that, but I don't think we've ever once had an argument that Gets above just disagreeing for a few minutes.
	So, I mean, as that goes, it's probably, well, it's by far the best relationship I've had ever.
	So, that's cool.
	Oh, I'm so thrilled. I'm so, so thrilled.
	So, please go on.
	Yeah, things are good.
	I mean, I'll let her talk for a little bit, if you don't mind, because, like, I mean, you guys have heard my voice before, but you've never heard her, so...
	I want to make sure that I'm selling this the wrong way.
	So, Amanda, when you talk, do you need Rod to leave the room?
	Like, is there any coded messages that you want to?
	No. No way.
	No, not at all.
	I'd have to ditto on everything he said.
	It's probably the most, lack of a better word, positive and most adult relationship I've ever had in my 31 years on this earth.
	And it's been fantastic.
	I've learned more about myself in the last year and a half just by not ignoring myself.
	It's been pretty awesome.
	What do you mean? Sorry, just to make sure I understand, not ignoring yourself.
	What do you mean? Well, in general, I work in the hospitality industry.
	And so my whole focus in life has always been about what I've always wanted a man with a beard.
	So what was it? I mean, is it different from other relationships that you've had in the past?
	Because I think you were saying it was the most adult relationship, which I guess is good.
	I mean, I guess you knew fairly early on when you guys met that Rod was into philosophy, not into this site or anything like that, but into philosophy as a whole.
	What was your reaction to that?
	And was there a difference that you noticed right away?
	Or was it a difference that kind of grew over time?
	It was pretty obvious from the front.
	I wasn't raised with religion.
	I wasn't raised with any...
	What am I looking for, babe?
	Cultish superstitions?
	Yeah, there you go.
	I won't say my family's perfect, but I think they are...
	Better off than most in that respect.
	We are, or were raised, I have two younger brothers raised to think for ourselves, make our own mistakes.
	We know that our parents are there to support us one way or the other.
	But meeting Rod and being introduced to this site as well as a lot of the financial stuff that he goes through and the philosophies behind that, it was kind of the aha.
	It was I always thought there was something a little bit off With what I was being told by mainstream, whether it be media or education or anything else, it never quite clicked.
	It never quite made sense. And given the resources that Rod has access to, it's kind of opened up and finally, I guess, found my niche, found a way to put the pieces together, I guess.
	That's great. Have you heard any of what are affectionately known in the community of the Rodcasts from, I guess, 06 and 07?
	Actually, the one I heard was the one where he told you he met me.
	I think I was in Costa Rica when he called in on that Sunday.
	That's actually the only one I've heard, but he's told me all about them.
	I would suggest at least try listening to one of the early ones because he's more himself now, but he's a different guy than he was before.
	When I first met him, and I think it would be interesting for you to see the difference, right?
	I mean, his animation, his enthusiasm, his energy, at least to me, it seems very different than when we first met, and I think that would be interesting to see that transition.
	That's a good point, because I know that I've listened to many podcasts with her, some of the more recent ones, and I know that I dug up the Invisible Apple one, and we went through some of the early ones like that.
	I don't know. I'm not really sure if it's been...
	I know I've looked back through them before trying to find the ones that I'm in, but I can't seem to find a good way to find them.
	I don't know if I've just...
	I haven't looked very hard, I guess, to find the broadcasts, so to speak.
	Well, it's some people who type in the numbers.
	And it is nice, because when your boyfriend comes up to you and says...
	Hey, I have an invisible apple for you.
	You're like, is that from the Kama Sutra?
	What does that mean? Do we need butter?
	What is that? Now, can you just remind me as well how you guys met?
	I always do love the sort of how you met stories, particularly in relationships that are working out really well like yours.
	How did you guys meet and how was the early part of your dating?
	From my perspective, I had been on eHarmony actually for like a year, just kind of maintaining a profile and chatting or communicating with tons and tons of people on it.
	But I think that out of the thousand or so people that I was hooked up with by the eHarmony bots or whatever they are, this My communications with Amanda from the very get-go were somehow qualitatively different than everything else.
	Sorry, you mean her story, from your perspective or from hers?
	From my perspective. Okay, okay.
	So I'll let her tell her her perspective here, too.
	Kind of paint the picture from if you guys know something about me from the broadcasts and such.
	A lot of the people that I was meeting or chatting with or whatever over this service, a lot of them were pretty girls who were Pretty much that's it.
	They were like a cardboard cutout with nothing behind them.
	Some of them seemed interesting, but had just obvious very large demons in the closet and things like that.
	Well, sorry to interrupt, but I think as we had chatted in one of the broadcasts, your choice of a username, manwhore2000, was probably not.
	Exactly. Quite the right people, although I'm glad that it worked with Amanda, but sorry, go on.
	So as soon as I changed my username, lo and behold, I got the first person off the boat then, and it's been just great since.
	But yeah, I think it was, let's see, 2007?
	Okay, it was Christmas in 2007.
	It was the first communication between us, and we chatted online back and forth, just emailing basically for a little over a month.
	Yeah, about a month. And then we finally met in January, the following, the next January.
	And it was, you know, immediately we were, I think we met on a Sunday around noontime.
	And it was like a 12-hour date.
	We were just going to meet for lunch and then chat a bit.
	And 12 hours later, we were like, oh, hey, I guess it's time to go now.
	Okay, nice meeting you, type of thing.
	We fell into a time warp, at least that's what it felt like.
	There was no awkwardness, no difficulty in communicating or coming up with subjects to talk about or anything.
	It was exciting.
	It was fun. I guess, you know how...
	When you meet someone on a date hookup or something like that, there's oftentimes, at least in my past, there was this feeling of, oh gosh, I'm on display here.
	I better put on a good show and I hope I don't screw it up type of thing.
	And there was absolutely none of that at all in this first encounter with her.
	It was a What I was feeling was actually, wow, this is an interesting person and I want to keep asking her questions so that I can see what she's all about.
	And it was just all kinds of fun like that.
	And then, of course, we've been together with the exception of her going to Costa Rica for a week and me going out to New York a couple of times for work.
	Just for a few days at a time.
	We've been together pretty much every day since.
	A little over a year ago we moved in together and live in a really great apartment that we enjoyed way too much.
	It's going great as far as I know.
	I'm eating the best food of my life because she's a terrific cook.
	I have a companion with me all the time.
	We share so many interests.
	The way that we decorate our home, we look at something and immediately we're either agreeing, yes, we want it or no, yuck, who would put that in their house type of thing.
	Things like that. When we go camping, it's just all kinds of fun there.
	It's a relaxing experience.
	We We've gotten into certain routines, like when we go camping, we settle into, without even really having to discuss it, just who does what and how everything works together and who packs this, who packs that, who sets up the tent, who does the bed inside the tent.
	It's been so smooth that unless I stop and think about how much of a lack of conflict there is It's almost easy to take it for granted, but when I compare it to previous relationships that I've had, it's shocking in its ease and enjoyment.
	It's just great. I know what you mean, and I certainly want to hear what Amanda says, but I just wanted to mention that when you share values, it's incredibly surprising, if not downright shocking, the degree to which those shared values differ.
	everywhere, everything, right?
	Like if you sort of enter, you know, reason and evidence thinking for yourself and so on, you will actually find, at least I found with my wife, and it sounds like you guys are finding it too, and I've heard this report from others, that you find that it will reflect itself in the kind of furniture that you like.
	It will reflect itself in the kind of movies you want to watch, in the kind of food you like to eat.
	It goes into every nook and cranny of...
	And if those values aren't the same, those things are constantly clashing.
	But if your values fundamentally are, you know, sane, rational, and scientific...
	It seems that it flows into everything and you end up with areas of non-conflict which are completely surprising.
	Like, how is it that we could both look at this piece of furniture and both like it?
	Because similar values don't make you the same person because you're always growing and changing and you have different perspective and you can't see yourself and so on.
	But it is amazing to me because, yeah, Christine and I have the same thing.
	We like the same colors on the walls.
	We like the same neighborhoods.
	We like to do the same shows.
	It really does flow everywhere, and that's why, I mean, values are so important.
	You always think, oh, it's the core values, and then there's lots of other things you could disagree about, but, you know, money and sex and work and all those things, it just doesn't seem to be that much of a conflict when you have those same values, and it seems to be that there's almost no way to resolve those things if you don't.
	Right, right. Yeah, one thing you just mentioned kind of jogged this thought in my mind is that a lot of times in In my experience in previous relationships and in observing other people's relationships, I've noticed that people tend to, I guess in the early part of the relationship, they figure out what are the safe areas for us to...
	Uh-oh. Are you guys there?
	I'm here. Sorry, I just muted myself for a sec, but please go on.
	My screen saver came on at exactly the same time that I heard that click.
	Which is weird, because your screen saver is nothing more or less than a picture of me, so then it's like a video, right?
	Yeah, I haven't been able to get rid of that.
	Alan, why would you? Right.
	Anyway, people kind of figure out, okay, these are the safe zones where there's no conflict, so we just retreat into this tiny little area of our relationship where, you know, okay, we've argued everything outside of this little pen that we're going to set ourselves in, and then for the rest of the relationship, for as long as it lasts, you just sit there in that tiny little pen.
	But for us, at least in my experience, it seems as though there's no pen in There's just new frontiers that we explore together and find out if we like it or not.
	And that's really, really interesting to see it from that perspective instead of the old way.
	Yeah, I mean, we all understand that science and mathematics and engineering allow people to resolve disputes without it becoming personal.
	And if you get two scientists in a room, they're generally going to agree on a methodology, maybe not always in conclusions.
	And yet we don't think that that's the same in personal relationships, right?
	That a real difference in values and methodologies can ever lead to harmony.
	And so, we understand that religious groups will tend to fight because there's no objective way to resolve their disputes, there's no reason or evidence, and yet we think that people with irrational beliefs are going to be able to resolve their differences.
	While we understand that in the realm of religion, we fail to see how it actually, even more importantly, applies to our personal relationships.
	So, Amanda, I think that's great.
	Amanda, you were going to talk a little bit about the early times for you?
	Early times for me?
	So I had been on eHarmony about a month, actually, before his profile popped up.
	And on Christmas Eve of 2007, it's actually the first email because, you know, girls always remember the dates better.
	That's okay. That's very true.
	That's very true. That's what we're for.
	That's our job. I'm just kidding.
	But his... Honesty was the first thing that grabbed me, to be honest.
	It was probably the first or maybe even second email when she told me the situation that he's no longer in contact with his family.
	I myself am not in contact with my biological father.
	My mom and my natural father were married for about four years before I was born.
	He took off when she was about seven months pregnant.
	I've never known him.
	I've always known he existed.
	I know that my dad, who raised me, who's been in my life since I was about a year and a half or two, and adopted me then.
	He's legally my parent, and he's the only father I've known, the only father I've needed.
	But me, I think having, I won't say a similar situation, but something where I completely understand that blood is not thicker than water.
	Your family is what you make of it, and it's your own life.
	You live it. Right.
	To meet someone as an adult who's actually doing that was completely refreshing.
	I'm in touch with some friends that I've known since high school and their family situations aren't the best, but yet they continue to go back for holidays and they continue to be around for nieces and nephews and all they do is complain about how horrible the family is.
	But, you know, it's family. You have to love them, quote unquote.
	And to meet someone who is completely willing to say, no, thank you.
	It was exciting and intriguing.
	We emailed incessantly for several weeks.
	I think he nailed it with Our song choices being extremely similar, it was a question that I would use to kind of weed through the not-so-desirables on eHarmony.
	Wait, wait, wait. Sorry.
	Are you saying you had a filter called song choices?
	I mean, in your mind. I did.
	I did. How fascinating. And how many times did he play you the ballad of Freedom Aid Radio before you said, if you stop this, I don't have to.
	But you just have to stop this.
	No, I've never heard that before.
	How interesting. How did you develop that as a methodology?
	That's quite interesting. I grew up with music.
	My dad remained friends with friends from high school, so I grew up with this extended family of music.
	I would say about 19 kids and 10 to 15 sets of parents, depending on the party, and there was always this incessant soundtrack that my dad had put onto a reel-to-reel player from records.
	Just kind of followed me throughout my life.
	Whether I was studying or working or cleaning or cooking, I always had music on the background.
	So knowing that wherever I go, I will always have music in the background, I knew that I had to find someone who either appreciated the same music I listened to or listened to something that I was interested in discovering.
	So the question was along the lines of, you know, if you had a jukebox at your access with every song in the world, what would be your first five that you would play?
	And of the five that Rod picked, three I knew, one I knew by heart, one was actually on the soundtrack that my dad used to play at all of our parties.
	And they were all Weird Al Yankovic.
	Right. I like big butts and cannot lie.
	Right, right. Exactly.
	Do you remember what the songs were?
	Let's see. I know that...
	I think there was a Pink Floyd in there.
	I think the one that we had the most conversations about was Gordon Lightfoot's If You Could Read My Mind.
	Yep, that's it. Right, right.
	Because the thing about that song that hit me and what I described when I first talked about it is that it's just such a richly sorrowful song.
	It's someone who is deeply feeling...
	Normally, people would associate that emotion with something negative.
	I remember that this was one of the early challenges that I had when I started listening to Freedom in Radio.
	I was still saddled with the, there's good emotions and there's bad emotions, and you shove the bad ones into a closet and let them die.
	When I started to come into A new way of looking at what had been negative emotions as just different flavors of emotions that were still being generated by myself for my own benefit.
	I started to appreciate things like someone deeply examining sorrow and loneliness and stuff like that.
	And so that's why I picked that one song as one of them.
	And I think that led to a few conversations early on.
	And it has some sweetly melancholic lyrics, that song.
	If you could read my mind. What a tale my thoughts could tell, just like a paperback...
	There's a line in there about a paperback novel that I can't recall.
	Do you remember what the line is?
	I've always thought that that was a beautifully melancholic lyric.
	I think it's just like a paperback novel about a ghost from a wishing well?
	No, it's the kind the drugstore sells.
	Oh, the kind the drugstore sells.
	Right, right, right. When you reach the part where the...
	The hero would be me is the last line at that.
	I have the lyrics. Right, that you're interested in adventure stories of other people.
	Yeah, if you can dig them up, or I can find them online.
	But I remember doing that song at karaoke and making people cry, as usual.
	No, I'm kidding. Do you have the lyrics there?
	I'm looking them up right now.
	Yeah, if you could, because I think it's a beautiful song.
	Yeah, a very... A very sweet and sad song.
	If I remember right, it's about a guy who thinks that his own emotions are kind of cheap, right?
	Like they're kind of sensationalized like these dime store adventure novels, but then he steps into being a hero in his own life.
	Oh, yeah. So just like a paperback novel, the kind that drugstores sell, when you reach the part where the heartaches come, the hero would be me, but heroes often fail.
	And you won't read that book again because the ending is just too hard to take.
	Right. Even in that lyric itself, you won't read that book again because the ending is just too hard.
	It spoke to me of having relationship after relationship that the end is always heartbreak and you just got to the point where you're like, screw it, I'm not reading that book anymore because it's always the same thing.
	There is a lot densely packed into that song, actually.
	It's the imagery you get from the words.
	I think the overall melody of it is what always stuck with me.
	If you took the words out and you just listen to that, it's beautiful.
	And then you add the words to it, it just becomes, as Rod was saying, just more rich.
	Yeah, I'll post that on the FDR board for those.
	Everybody probably knows the song, like it's one of these songs that everybody knows a little bit, but you may not have listened to it.
	And the way he sings it is so effortlessly sad, right?
	A lot of people, when they sing, they're throwing in these Molinas and they're trying to, you know, bust out the lungs and all that.
	But he just sings it like he was, you know, sitting on the back porch, musing about his life.
	And it's got a really effortless kind of floating lyric, sorry, vocal to it that I've always found to be very appealing.
	Yeah. Right, right, right.
	Yeah, and there's something that was interesting about when she threw this song filter at me, is that that's something that is, I'm not sure how far it goes back for me, but I've always had, or for a long, long time now, I've had a tendency to have a soundtrack going in my mind constantly, and I think that it has something to do with just the way that my brain is wired.
	I think Things happen in parallel all the time, and that's, I think, one of the things that makes me a successful engineering designer is that one path of thought or something like that will branch off into many, many parallel paths, and somehow they all work at the same time, but it's almost as if I have to pick one to focus on.
	So oftentimes when I'm doing things during the day, I'll Without having any realization of how or why, there's a song playing in my head.
	And if I focus on it, I can sometimes find parallels to other things that I'm doing at the time.
	Most recently, it helped you remember the name of someone that you ran into.
	It's kind of odd how the subconscious works like that.
	Yeah, my subconscious mind tends to be playing music a lot.
	Earlier on in my life, it was only...
	Oh, sorry. Yeah, somebody mentioned this in the chat room, that you were having trouble remembering my name until you remember Wright said, Fred, I'm too sexy.
	Leaping back at you in a horrifying way.
	Okay, what's the exact opposite of that song, Steph?
	Yes, that's it. With the fur glove.
	Yeah, anyway, so that was just, it was a...
	It was fun. It was a way that we very early on engaged with each other that hooked into something that I guess very deeply resonates with both of us.
	There was a lot of deep interest in the things that we discussed from the get-go, and it was quite exciting that way.
	Wow, that's just fantastic.
	That is just fantastic. And how's gogorodzilla.com?
	It's going well. My website's been frozen in carbonite since I first started working because I've just gotten work and usually websites are commonly used for marketing but I've had steady work since I started so I kind of let it just sit in fallow.
	I'm currently planning on perhaps Doing a change, I might be incorporating soon.
	And when I do so, I might change my name just to my own name, Ron T. Peterson Design Incorporated or something like that.
	I'm kind of having the impression that the Go-Go-Rodzilla, it was a lot of fun, and when I started it out, the economy was such that there's plenty of room for fun like that.
	But I think it's time to put on a little bit of a sharper suit, so to speak.
	There is no fun in the recession at the moment.
	No frivolity, right?
	Right. When there's heads rolling in the streets, it's not good to be prancing down the street in a jester's outfit.
	Absolutely. I think it's an evolution of the business, I think, and it's going pretty well.
	I have had some difficulties.
	I have this one main client that I've been with the entire time, and it's become somewhat of a dysfunctional relationship.
	I'm getting the impression that they take me for granted quite a bit, and so I'm trying to slowly extract myself from that environment and place myself into Right, right. Well, you know, I mean, I've had some experience with this.
	If there's anything I can do to help, just to let me know.
	We've been doing some entrepreneurial conference calls lately that people have found helpful, and we did actually talk about some client issues in the more recent one, so you might want to check that out.
	Yeah, I have. I have seen some of those on the feed, and I have been meaning to listen to them.
	I haven't gotten around to it yet. But, yeah, every once in a while, when I get the chance, I'm still pulling interesting-looking titles and stuff from the feeds.
	I don't have, obviously, the time to hit every single one of them like I used to.
	Well, and there's less need, right?
	I mean, if you're going great, right?
	Don't be a doctor when I feel good, right?
	Kind of like a been-there-done-that type of thing.
	But, no, it's... Obviously, you know, I'm still...
	Oh, I should mention, like, some of my favorite visits to the Freedomain universe has been to watch the videos and look at the pictures of your daughter.
	Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness.
	She is a joy.
	I am absolutely stunned at...
	I mean, I don't know.
	It's... She is such a beautiful person.
	And obviously not just physically beautiful because she looks like you, but...
	Yeah, I know.
	I apologize for that for her.
	Oh, just another thing for Daddy to apologize for.
	But yeah, she's just so fascinating to watch.
	And even in still photographs, you can just see how dynamic she is.
	And absolutely just a remarkable child.
	So congratulations on that.
	And just... I can't thank you enough again for showing, I guess, the right way to do things, you know?
	Well, you know, I hope so, for sure.
	I mean, it would kind of suck if I missed that.
	You know, it's easy to criticize other people's parenting, right?
	But you kind of want to get it downed yourself, you know?
	I'd be looking for the money-back guarantee on your website if it was.
	Absolutely. No, it is just an amazing, amazing experience.
	And she is, you know, I mean, a child without flaws.
	I mean, she is absolutely fantastic.
	And, you know, a lot of the things that I just assumed about kids or being a parent just is not true, right?
	I mean, that kids don't cry, right?
	She doesn't cry. She doesn't cry.
	I mean, if she falls over, she'll cry for a minute or two, and then she's fine.
	She doesn't like going to bed because obviously we're quite a lot of fun.
	But she doesn't, you know, this whole thing, there's myths that I had about childhood or raising kids or the things that you always hear.
	She's completely satisfied with a non-conflict sort of parenting thing.
	Right now, okay, so she's almost 11 months now, so...
	And we do have conflicts, right?
	Because, you know, for instance, we have one of those fridges where the freezer is on the bottom, just above the floor.
	And, of course, she loves to open things and to explore.
	I mean, she's just starting to walk right now, so we're in that phase.
	But because she can crawl and she can open things, you know, we've child-proofed as much as possible.
	Dear Lord, I mean, she's like tendrils of fog getting into everything.
	Exactly. And so she loves to go into the freezer and pull everything out of the freezer and so on, right?
	And I'll let her do it for a couple of minutes, but she's not that aware of when her hands get too cold because she's just not too excited.
	And so I would then close the freezer, tell her no, and of course we say no with the lights, with the lamps and the cables and so on.
	And She's never expressed frustration when I take her out of a situation that she's enjoying for whatever reason, right?
	And that to me is amazing too because that's not the myth that you hear.
	If you indulge your child, they will just become bratty.
	They will just become spoiled and they will become entitled and so on.
	The complete opposite seems to be true.
	You got me started now.
	We went to buy some...
	We need a winter jacket for her.
	And we didn't take her out last winter because she was like four minutes old, right?
	But we need a winter jacket for her.
	And so we went to go shopping.
	We took her to the mall last night.
	And the malls are great because it's a little cold for her to walk around for too long.
	But she's got this little red...
	Truck that she pushes and she walks.
	Like when I take a dude to do grocery shopping, she actually pushes the cart for some of the time.
	It's really cool. She's down there.
	It's like watching one of those Ewoks push the droid container at the beginning of Star Wars, you know, that big casino.
	She's so small and people look because the cart's pretty full.
	People are like, how did you get a cart that's electric?
	No, no, no. It's easy powered.
	And we took her and she really, really wanted to.
	And she's so strong with her desires, right?
	She loves to go to racks of things in stores and destroy them.
	Anything that's on a hook, she will just pull off and throw around.
	And there were a whole bunch of these.
	She loves belts, right? So there were belts handling.
	There were stretchy belts. She was pulling them.
	And then she wanted to go over to...
	Where the necklaces were hanging, you know, the jangly, shiny, I mean, it's crack for her, right?
	And so she goes over and she just, you know, it's a lot of work.
	I mean, there's no question. You've got to sit there and catch everything as it falls and put it back into the right place.
	I sort of try to leave it more or less the way that I found it.
	But she was so into it, so into it, and I wanted her to have that experience.
	I wanted her to enjoy it.
	Playing with that stuff.
	It's the old thing. If she ends up breaking it, we'll just buy it.
	It's not the end of the world. Then I had to take her because we had to finish our shopping and get her home in time so she could go to sleep at a reasonable hour.
	I picked her up and she wanted to go back down.
	I just said, no, I'm sorry.
	I gave her a kiss and so on. She looked at me and then she just shrugged.
	It's like, okay. It really is amazing how non-conflictual it is And I think that's because we try to give her as much latitude as is conceivably safe to explore, to enjoy, because it's so important to remember the whole world is Disneyland to her at this point.
	Everything is new. Everything is exciting.
	And it's irresistible.
	It's so exciting. And, I mean, I think that's a delightful thing.
	It helps me to see, you know, everything in a new way.
	Yeah. So, to remember just how thrilling and exciting it is for her and to want to give her that joy and that experience of playing with these new things and doing these.
	Because for us, it's some old dusty store with some belts or whatever.
	But for her, it's like the Amazon.
	You know, like waiting for monkeys to come out from between the belts and throw bananas at her.
	I mean, it's that nice. And we found that just by giving her as much latitude as humanly possible to enjoy and to explore...
	She's not constantly on guard against things being taken away from her.
	And when things are taken away from her, when we say no, when I take something out of her hands that she can't have, then she's perfectly content with it because she knows it's not because we don't want her to have fun, so to speak, it's because we give her so much latitude to have fun that when we put restrictions upon her, she seems perfectly content.
	test, I'm going to be absolutely fascinated to see what happens during these vaunted, terrible twos, right?
	Like there's a theory that adolescence, you know, the moodiness, the irritability and so on is not anything to do with the natural part of life.
	It's a combination of bad parenting, possibly sleep deprivation or whatever.
	But I'm really interested to see what's going to happen with these terrible twos because a lot of the things that she's supposed to be difficult, problematic and troublesome with so far have simply failed to materialize, which is like, whew, you know?
	And I'm just really glad that it's working out so far.
	But of course, this probably does mean that she's doomed for any kind of normal schooling.
	Sorry, that's a bit of a tangent, but it is a complete thrill and joy.
	And of course, because she is such a delightful kid.
	And so enthusiastic and so affectionate and so enthusiastic about everything that it's a real privilege to be able to spend time with her.
	Yeah, yeah. No need to apologize.
	Absolutely. I'm always just thrilled to hear updates on the Izzy universe.
	But yeah, I think something that you mentioned was the lack of conflicts or something like that.
	And it reminded me of another thing that with regards to our relationship is the...
	I've noticed just kind of like I have an increasing skill, I guess, of RTR and myself in the moment of our conversations and things.
	I mentioned before that we have disagreements or arguments that last a few minutes, but usually what The conversation turns to is, okay, what just happened and how are we going to figure out how to deal with that?
	And it's not the, well, screw you, I'm just going to go off on a hop and then we'll come back in a week and pretend that it never happened type of thing.
	And so there's things like, obviously in my early life, the world as I knew it The world that my brain was tuned to navigate through was if you want someone else to do something for you, you cause some kind of an emotional response in them which compels them to do that.
	And so, of course, I'm still pretty well keyed to respond to that type of stimulus.
	And I sometimes am prone to causing that stimulus myself.
	And so it's kind of...
	It's becoming...
	A lot easier as our relationship evolves to find those things happening as they happen, like immediately as they happen.
	Can you give us your account? Well, there's one thing that is kind of like an ongoing difficulty is that when she's on her computer, yeah, she's laughing because it's on her computer.
	You guys live together, but it's her computer, right?
	Laptop. Laptop. It actually was his laptop, so it's my laptop now.
	Yeah, so I brought her into the Mac universe, and of course, since it's kind of a new operating system to her, you know, in the last year or so, you know, she'll have, obviously, she'll have difficulties because she's a whiz at Windows, and she's trying to find the Mac equivalent for things,
	and so she'll get upset sometimes, and so it's really difficult for me to sometimes decide or figure out or to read is her being upset and saying things to her computer is Meant to actually say to me, Rod, I want you to come over here and fix this stupid computer.
	Right. Is she wrestling with it or is she asking for help?
	Like wrestling like, I'll figure it out kind of thing.
	Right, right. So I try to gently remind her.
	Sometimes I don't quite so gently remind her.
	But I say things like, you know, I don't know how to read that.
	If you need my help, I want you to ask me for my help.
	But, you know, just...
	Getting all angry at your computer, what it does is it just puts me on edge because the way that I developed in early life, what that was is when someone's getting angry at something, that means you better hop to and get that thing fixed for that person before they get even angrier.
	Yeah, that they are kind of bringing it to you, but they're not being honest about it.
	Right, right. It would be a lack of...
	I don't know what I'm doing There are things like this that come up in our relationship.
	I know that the early part of this conversation was just a sales pitch for perfection.
	But of course it's not. A relationship has challenges.
	What I'm finding though is that when the challenges do arise, they are recognized as such and not as deal breakers and things like that.
	They don't turn into those fences that we retreat from, into these tiny little corners that we find safe.
	We recognize what they are as they're an impediment to a greater experience with each other, and so we try to meet them.
	Challenges, yes, but can we deal with them?
	Of course we can. And of course, as you continue to successfully meet those challenges, your confidence grows in being able to meet them properly.
	Right. Absolutely. You're either moving together or you're moving apart.
	There's nothing static in intimate, particularly romantic relationships.
	And it's great when you... It's like, hey, we dealt with this a bunch of times before.
	I don't know exactly how we're going to deal with this one, but I know that we can do it because we're going to commit to be honest and so on.
	So I think that's just fantastic.
	I've seen it succeed before, so I know it can again.
	And it's like the...
	I think...
	Oh, yeah.
	I think when we were playing around with the Google...
	Wave thing a couple of nights ago when I, I think Greg Minton invited me to that and it was kind of fun.
	We're playing around with it. But, you know, we were just chatting a little bit then about Amanda and myself.
	And one of the things that I said was that it's becoming actually more and more difficult to not deal with things in a mature way as time goes on.
	Because, you know, when you've When you're kind of busted and broken up from a not-so-great childhood or a lousy childhood, I shouldn't mince words, it's really, really hard to do the right thing because your false self is like screaming at you, you're going to die if you do this.
	If you open up and you become honest and vulnerable, you're screwed.
	Yeah, that's a trap.
	It's a trap. Yeah, it's a trap.
	Okay, Admiral Ackbar. Yeah.
	But now I'm finding that as time goes on and we're getting better and better and better at communicating through these things, it's like my don't go there is turning into don't go there as in don't avoid this.
	You better deal with it now because the alternative is not fun at all and you know that.
	And so it's becoming more and more difficult to not do the right thing.
	It's interesting. Right.
	It's like a subtle rewiring of the wetworks.
	Amanda, I guess you got good problem-solving skills from your family and from your dad, who of course I fully understand.
	Parent is a verb, it's not a noun, it's not a thing, it's an action, right?
	Yeah, exactly. Was that something that you had not had the opportunity to implement as much as you'd like in prior relationships, or did it really come to full flower in this current relationship?
	I think it came to full flower here.
	I think that my problem-solving skills have kind of been developed just from me being very practically minded.
	My dad wasn't as great of a dad as he is, in hindsight, not very good with conflict.
	That's where he's gotten I don't know if he's gotten better or if it's just different.
	He was an iron worker for 24 years and had to have his shoulder replaced.
	So now he's been home unemployed and retired early for the last three or four years.
	So he's just kind of become stagnant and so irritable, just depressed.
	My brothers are living at home, my mom, and they're all kind of trying to work through it.
	I'm pretty removed from that at this point because my life is here.
	With Rod, and they're kind of an extension of that on the other end.
	I'm not involved in it on a daily basis.
	Like you're available if they would like some help, and it's not like you withhold feedback, but it's not your problem to solve because it's not your marriage, so to speak, right?
	Exactly. And I've learned that more so, the truth behind that over the last couple of years as well.
	And I think it's something that, like I was saying, it was...
	The ideas and the philosophies that we follow and we try to engage on every day have always been kind of there under the surface for me.
	Because what was on the surface never quite made sense, never quite added up.
	Two and two wasn't really getting to four.
	I couldn't figure it out.
	I didn't have the tools. I didn't have the resources.
	Either that or I was too afraid to look for them.
	That could be a whole podcast in itself, I guess.
	Anytime. Anytime. You let me know.
	I really like...
	I mean, I certainly do hear a lot from people who need particular help with difficult stuff.
	But, you know, it's not just, in a sense, getting people off to the couch and to the gym, but to get people from the silver to the gold, right?
	So anytime, I'm all ears.
	But please go on. Yeah.
	So where was I? Oh, I'm talking about your dad is not dealing with conflict all that great.
	Yeah. And then...
	He was the youngest of seven kids and raised more or less by his siblings rather than his parents.
	And I think he actually lived in California for a couple of years with older sisters and brothers before his parents ever moved out here from Indiana.
	So it was kind of an interesting family dynamic for him.
	And then, you know, coming and meeting my mom and the story goes he married my mom to be my dad because he met me and that was, you know, that was the end of it.
	Oh, that's sweet. Yeah.
	His favorite compliment is that I look like him.
	And oddly enough, kind of do.
	But just, where was I going with that?
	I kind of got sidetracked. My problem solving skills and kind of where they're at, I guess.
	I'm not going to say I'm completely self-taught because I had something from somewhere, but looking at it The actual abilities of my parents and the relationship between the two of them.
	I think some of the stuff I've learned is by knowing what doesn't work and witnessing that and not wanting to have the same things that I didn't like in my parents and wanting something better.
	Absolutely. And I think that is a constant progression, right?
	I mean, there's no question that Isabella, when she gets older, and, you know, I mean, right now she's in the worship daddy phase, which I believe lasts until she's in her 40s, but she's going to get older and she's going to see the limitations that I have and the errors that I make and the inadequacies that I have.
	You just, as Rad was saying, you can't go through a really smashed up childhood and come out and be like...
	You weren't there.
	That's just not possible. Even if you can't get a leg smashed up, go through rehab and be the person who never had to go through rehab.
	You might end up stronger, you might end up better, but you're not going to be the person that never went through it.
	And that's going to leave some limitations, some scar tissue, some challenges in its wake.
	And she is going to look at me and say, well, this I think is a problem or this is a problem.
	And I think that's fantastic.
	That's exactly what I want her to do.
	Because she should not attempt to imitate or mirror me, right?
	She should be somebody who thinks for herself with her own principles, hopefully some good rational ones.
	And so imperfections in parenting, I think, is all part of that progress.
	It's really the moment of truth when she brings those criticisms to me, how I handle it.
	But that is certainly something that I'm not going to be offended when she finds my limitations.
	That would be crazy, right?
	Because, I mean, they're legal. And she's going to grow up In a more peaceful and more rational world than I could ever have dreamed of as a child.
	And she's just going to have a significant number of strengths that I'm never going to have.
	Because I just can't be that kind of person who didn't go through what I went through.
	But that to me would be the whole point.
	That she's going to have a kind of confidence and security that took me a long time to achieve.
	And in some ways I think is stronger because of that.
	But it's not quite the same as if it were just organically present.
	At the very beginning or from the very beginning and all the way through.
	So yeah, for sure.
	Limitations in the parents, dysfunctions in the parents is a great thing for children to see.
	And it is part of the sort of step up the ladder that I think each generation is supposed to do.
	Yeah. And I'm fortunate that my parents have never expected us to be just like them.
	They've always wanted us to be better.
	And they've never made excuses for their limitations, but...
	I don't know if they are aware of them, per se.
	It's still the conversations that we haven't had.
	As we've gotten older, we've gotten closer, and we can explore topics more in depth.
	My brothers are 27 and 26 now, crispy 28 in February.
	And as we've gotten older, it's interesting to watch our own dynamic change and grow.
	I remember I had just started college and my youngest brother wasn't quite 18 but he got a tattoo.
	And the middle brother told me about it and the younger brother told me about it.
	And when my mom ended up finding out about six months to, actually almost a year later, it was nine months to a year later when she found out, she was not upset about the tattoo per se.
	She was more upset that my brothers and I had such a close relationship that no one told on him.
	And she flat out told me, I'm jealous of the relationship you have with your brothers.
	It was something I never had with my own.
	And I said, then you should be proud of what you've raised.
	And it kind of, it was about that time when I realized that my mom had no longer become an authority figure in my life.
	She'd become not necessarily an equal yet, but she'd become someone that I could converse with and discuss things with.
	And there's still a lot of things that I want to discuss with her, but that's just my own Insecurities and challenges and finding my own strength there to do that.
	And I think I get stronger on that part every day.
	But, you know, if each generation is better than the one before, then the only way we can go is forward or up or however you want to phrase that.
	No, and I think it's certainly clear to me that, I mean, Isabella will watch me You have to remember that as a parent, she's always, like if I'm in the room, she's watching me guardedly.
	Is he going to take my food? But she's watching me very, very closely all the time.
	It's really important to remember that right now, I'm like 10 times her size.
	I can do things that she can't even imagine, like walk easily, climb stairs, drive cars.
	I can feed myself.
	I can... You know, on a good day, change myself.
	There's lots of good things that I can do that, to her, are God-like.
	And, like, I was just singing a snippet of song to her, and she's starting to do this thing where she echoes back things that are being sung to her, which is just fantastic.
	You've got a really soft and pleasant voice.
	And so I can do all of it.
	So there is that God-like aspect of parenting.
	It's inevitable. There's no way to have it any other way.
	But I'm very conscious of the need to continue to chip away at that edifice, right?
	So that when she, as she grows up, I need to diminish in her mind.
	I need to shrink to the merely human, right?
	Because otherwise she can't grow in the same way.
	Like I sort of need to get out of her way so she gets the sunlight and to diminish myself as I go forward.
	And it sounds a little bit like your mom was doing that when she was talking about the envy that she has.
	That is a very non-authoritarian, non-authoritarian, Quote, parent-type thing to say, and I think that's great.
	Yeah. Greg G. asked why it was something my brother would hide from my mom.
	It was... He's now got quite a few tattoos, and most of that's from touring the world with Rancid as their merch guy, so he's been tattooed in just about every country he's been in.
	They're pretty funny tattooed. They're pretty funny, as in, like, the one on his knees that's party naked.
	So he's a little out there.
	He's a little crazy, but he's...
	He's a lot of fun and he's actually really down to earth when you talk to him, surprisingly enough.
	Being my baby brother, it's kind of funny finally saying that about him.
	But my mom had asked them, both of them, but actually all of us, not to get any tattoos or any significant piercings until we were at least 18 or either out of the house on our own, just so that it was a decision we were making as an independent adult and not as a rebellion while we lived at home.
	And so when he got it, A friend of him wasn't legally supposed to have it, but who cares about that part?
	He just didn't tell her.
	If he had told her at the time, to tell you the truth, I don't think anything would have happened.
	But it was the fact that it had been nine months to a year when she found out.
	And it was, again, it was the fact that we kept each other's secret that she was envious of.
	And it wasn't necessarily any kind of anger or upset.
	Right, right.
	You said he was touring the world with his Rancid band.
	A band called Rancid.
	A rock band named Rancid.
	Have I heard of them or am I just pretending to be cool?
	No, no, no. You probably have.
	I was in high school the first time I heard them, and so...
	You were in high school, so you may have heard them while rocking slowly on the stage porch.
	What I mean by that is that was 13 or 14 years ago now, so...
	Right. No, I mean, I think I've heard of them.
	Let me just ask the people in the chat room, Rancid, is that...
	It's certainly a memory that...
	It's a name that you would remember.
	I mean, it's not like just some guy's name on a band, so...
	What sort of music do they play?
	Well, I'm guessing with a name like Rancid.
	Am I right in understanding?
	Yeah. It's punk rock.
	There's a song about a black bag that most people would be familiar with as soon as you hear it.
	It's kind of funny. As soon as I hear a song, I know it's theirs, but I couldn't tell you the names or all the words of them.
	He's also toured with several other bands as their merchandise.
	He sells all their shirts and stickers and stuff like that.
	They'll be ordering for that, as well as lifting all the heavy objects.
	He's a tall boy.
	But he has to tour the world.
	He's been to Japan and all over Europe and all over the US and Canada.
	He said, hey, I'm going to do this.
	We all went, okay, have fun.
	I was actually just commenting on this the other day.
	One of my clients that I'm working for, actually, their office is just two blocks away from Mandy's parents' house.
	We were over there the other night.
	We had dinner with them. I was commenting about this on the way home.
	I just said that her brothers are both very confident people.
	They're fun to be around.
	They're not They're pretty gregarious.
	They're not at all shy.
	Maybe a little bit shy, but they warm up quickly.
	But it's kind of refreshing to interact with them because it's fun to see people who are so self-confident and willing to explore their world and things.
	The brother that she was just describing, he's bought himself a A fishing boat that he goes out on the ocean with.
	He's headed for a couple years now, I suppose.
	Three or four now. Yeah, okay, so three or four years.
	And he goes out and brings home fresh fish out of the ocean and stuff and cooks them up.
	And he just got a spear gun, I think, for his birthday or something like that.
	Bobster and Shoeshead and all that good stuff because spearfishing, diving.
	Yeah, so I mean...
	No fear. Yeah, there really is.
	Both her brothers have this...
	Kind of this persona of no fear.
	They just go out and they find something they want to do and they do it.
	It's really kind of fun to watch.
	Well, it's good because it takes a family of fearless children to end up dating a guy into philosophy.
	Exactly. You are the storms that he's not afraid of in the boat.
	You are that. So that's good.
	And I really didn't have to dig deep at all in Amanda to find her sound philosophy core.
	It was there. I mean, it was there, ready to be found.
	And as soon as I started talking about this stuff, she was immediately keying in on it.
	And it's not like I had to give her the hard sell.
	Okay, first principle is this, now let's build that block, and then build another block.
	It was just like... Here's one step away from my conclusion.
	She goes, oh yeah, of course.
	Christina was the same way.
	She was trained as a scientist, so she had some Things that, you know, weren't particularly thought through and we, you know, we discussed them.
	But it was a pretty short discussion because, you know, and when you've gone through that kind of stuff with people, you know, when you see people beating their heads against people who are never going to listen, you just get, you know, like, come on, life's too short, you know.
	Go try and walk through a door rather than a wall, you know.
	That makes it a lot less painful.
	But so, yeah, I can completely understand that.
	And until people have experienced that, I think that they don't get just how easy it can be to, you know, bring some useful enlightenment to people and have it come back.
	Yeah. All right.
	Well, we do have a couple of questions here, and I'm completely thrilled that I could talk with you guys all night, but I do want to see if there are other people who wanted to jump in with questions.
	I'm really, obviously, thrilled to hear you guys again.
	I'm completely thrilled that you guys are together and having a great time.
	I'm just, you know...
	It's nothing for me to be proud of, but I'm just completely happy that you guys are doing it.
	So I really, really do appreciate it.
	And if there's any useful combos that you could have here, just give me the word and we'll crank up a new rod slash Mandicast.
	Mandicast, that's got a nice... There you go.
	I do have one small quibble with something you just said there.
	As you said, it's nothing for you to be proud of.
	I think it is. Actually, I'm certain of that.
	You should be proud of this, because without you, this could not have happened.
	He said that from day one.
	That absolutely sounds like a promise to name a child.
	I think so.
	Freedom Aid Radio is a gender-neutral name, and I think that's really, really important to remember.
	All joking aside, I really do appreciate that.
	I'm happy to have had a part in it, maybe even as a catalyst, but It's the listeners who do all the hard, heavy lifting in their own lives.
	So I really appreciate what you're saying, and I'm glad to have been any small part of this kind of happiness.
	Yeah, I think a pretty solid mentor is, I think, a pretty good label for what you've been to me.
	So thanks again.
	And do let us know when your new website is up, and we'll let people know.
	Indeed. Sounds good.
	Thanks very much. Congratulations again.
	Great to hear from you. All right.
	Take care. Thanks.
	James, we had a lady who wanted to, you were going to call her on the server, is that right?
	Sorry about that, I was muted.
	I'll read off the question that she was going to ask and you can give her a shot.
	She said, are you interested in having a brief talk?
	Haha, never! Are you interested in having a brief talk on your choice not to use recreational drugs until the time at which it is absolutely sure that the negative effects it could potentially have on your mind would be eclipsed by other inevitable biological events?
	That would already be contributing to your deterioration.
	It's a bit of a tongue-in-cheek thing that I've sort of mentioned that, you know, I will absolutely take morphine on my deathbed.
	I have no doubt about that whatsoever.
	The stronger, the better. But I've sort of mentioned that, you know, when I'm getting really old, if I'm single or whatever.
	But, you know, now that I've got a family, that may be a little bit less my sort of perspective.
	But if we can get that lady in, I would be happy to have a talk about it.
	Is she available? Is she on the line?
	I'm trying to add, and unfortunately it rings and then acts like it just hangs up right away.
	So I'm not sure if it's a bad number or whatever.
	Alright, no problem. Did we have somebody else who had another question or comment or issue?
	We could also give her the number to call in, right?
	Because then you would get that on the server and you could just add her to the conference.
	Is that right? We did that once before, if I remember rightly.
	Yep. I just have to be ready and willing to catch it.
	Are you willing? Yes.
	Okay, good. I'm willing and ready.
	All right. The number is 315-876-9705.
	That is the number, 315-876-9705.
	I will put that in the chat room.
	Oh, thanks. Thanks. Somebody has asked about homeschooling, and I don't know much about homeschooling.
	I'm trying to get interviews with people who know about this thing called unschooling, which sounds pretty close to Free Domain Radio in many ways.
	And so I'm hoping to get an interview with somebody who's an expert on unschooling, and I will let you know, of course.
	As soon as that happens.
	Yeah, the School Sucks podcast is terrific.
	I've done a couple of shows with him as well, and I'm hoping to do another one with the two of them where we're talking about, you know, why us?
	What is the difference between us and others when it comes to being open to philosophy as a whole?
	Why us? And, you know, even within the same family, there are some who do and some who, you know, violently oppose it.
	And I'm sort of interested in pursuing that topic.
	It was actually the topic of the very first Sunday call-in show sometime in 2006 and we are still not resolved on that and we may never be but I also have an interview tomorrow at 11 a.m.
	with a professor of psychology because I have some questions to ask him about some stuff that he's published and hopefully that might add to some of our knowledge base about this kind of stuff.
	The science that is going on in the realm of psychology And child development is really, really quite fascinating.
	And so I'm trying to get people to chat with us about that.
	Alright, so let's just see if this fine young lady will make it into the call.
	Otherwise, we will take other questions or issues.
	You can type your questions into the chat room.
	You can unmute yourself if you want to talk.
	Or you can ask James for James Pirich, you can ask him for a call or you can call in.
	315-876-9705.
	We're just waiting to see if she makes it in.
	I haven't seen the thing pop up on the server yet, so unfortunately.
	Oh, you know what? Of course.
	It's just written in the chat room.
	How would you reply to this?
	This is an objection to parenting.
	Or to a particular style of parenting.
	How would you reply to this?
	Ah, but raising a child to respect and consider the needs of others is profoundly coercive in and of itself.
	If children are given love combined with freedom, they become selfish and self-entitled.
	Witness the results of the baby-moor trend of parenting that basically left children to do whatever they wanted.
	The act of parenting involves restraining and shaping children so that they can engage with others in a meaningful, helpful way.
	Complete and utter freedom sounds like a good thing, But it really is a curse.
	And it's an excellent objection.
	And I will tell you what I think and what I've experienced as a parent.
	And you can tell me if it makes any sense.
	It was a genuine shock to me when, at about the age of seven months or so, Isabella began to feed me back.
	So I would feed her Something.
	I would give her something and it was when she began to grab food and put it in her own mouth.
	We have these long, sort of, they look like little surfboards, these little, called baby mum mums, these rice cakes.
	And I would give her a bite and then she took it and, not her bite, but she took the mum mum and she tried to feed it back to me.
	Right? Or she would take her binky and try and put it into my mouth, her little pacifier.
	And That, to me, reflects something very profound and fundamental in human development, which is at least some early degree of empathy, recognizing that she likes to eat, she's a human being, I am a human being, therefore I must like to eat, that she enjoys being fed by me, and therefore she would like to mirror that back to me.
	Whether that's because she just wants to imitate, or whether because she thinks I genuinely might be hungry, who knows, may never know.
	The idea that if you give children freedom, they will become selfish, I think is not an accurate way of talking about it.
	This is what I think. I think that if children are lonely, they will become selfish.
	It has been my experience with Isabella, and this is not scientific, this is just my experience, right?
	But I think there's some value in it.
	It has been my experience with Isabella That she is very hungry for parental company.
	She really enjoys our company because we have lots of fun and we explore and we make faces and we make jokes and we, you know, she claps and we sing.
	We, you know, we do lots of things that are really enjoyable and engaging for her.
	And she's slowly starting to learn a little bit about how to enjoy time with herself, right?
	Playing with her blocks and she can do that.
	But she gravitates towards us as parents.
	She wants to spend time with us as parents, and we as parents want to spend time with her.
	So I think that it was that we, you know, we recognize her needs, right?
	So if she seems happy, but then she lets out a cry, I will change my facial expression and ask her what the matter is.
	And of course she can't answer, but at least she knows that I've heard that she's in some sort of minor distress, and I will try something new, and I will try to To give her what she wants.
	So I think because she's on the receiving end of a great deal of sensitivity and empathy, and because she understands that we delight in her company, that's who she is growing into being, right?
	She is learning what she lives.
	Children grow up to be like their parents, unconscious, so many times.
	I mean, not so much if the parents are conscious, but Children grow up as mirrors of their parents.
	And I think if children grow up selfish, then it's because the parents have been selfish.
	If children grow up non-empathetic, then it's because the parents have not been empathetic.
	That doesn't mean that it's irreversible, but that's the first place that I and I think any sensible person would look.
	Now, when this person I think is talking about freedom, I think what is probably being referred to is a kind of abandonment.
	And that's a dramatic way of putting it, but children don't want to be free.
	I mean, Isabella doesn't want to go and drive a truck, right?
	She doesn't want to go and play video games in some mall.
	She wants to spend time with us because we are a great source of joy and pleasure and fun for her.
	And food, right?
	And cuddles and kisses and laughter.
	So she's drawn to us because...
	If she's given a free choice, like if we put her, we haven't done these experiments, but I know what would happen if we put her in the middle of a room with some toys and, you know, my wife's standing at one end of the room and I'm standing at the other, she might play with the toys for a minute or two, but then she will immediately come to one of us, right? And it's a bit of a pendulum.
	Some weeks it's her mom and some weeks it's me that she favors for whatever reason, but she will come to us.
	So, in a free situation, she wants to come and spend time with her parents.
	Now, the baby boomers were often raised.
	They were put in daycares.
	They had nannies.
	They had babysitters.
	The parents were off finding themselves or doing other things or working or whatever.
	And I don't think that they spent as much time with their children.
	And the children got that.
	They understood that they weren't that much of a priority.
	So, since the children's needs weren't that much of a priority...
	To the parents, then the children absorb that and say, well, other people's needs aren't that much of a priority.
	And so that's what they end up growing up to mirror.
	So I think that's where I would look, first and foremost, for that kind of stuff.
	But we shall see.
	Yeah, television was a brand new great babysitter for middle class baby boomers.
	Someone says, it facilitates the lazy parent.
	Sorry, I'm not sure what it is there, but this parent says, I suffered this exactly.
	Libertarian, lazy dad that used my individualism as an excuse to leave me to my own destructive devices.
	And someone else has said, I have two sons that, like Isabella, enjoyed the parent, me, facilitating their exploration as babies, and had no terrible twos.
	And are now well-adjusted preteens whose parents do the difficult but joyful engaging work of parenting.
	Steph is really onto something, in my opinion, with treating children as a respected friend that needs some help and guidance.
	And I think that's very, very important.
	I don't view Isabella as an inferior.
	I don't view her as a clay to be guided.
	I don't view her as A wild beast.
	I don't view her as someone who needs to be tamed or molded or shaped.
	I mean, she is perfect the way that she is.
	She has limitations in cognitive abilities, of course, due to her age.
	But she is a person.
	She is a little person who in some ways is, in many ways, you know, it's pretty hard for me to look down on her and say, well, she's this inferior and I'm this superior.
	Because in many ways, she's healthier than I am.
	She's more spontaneous.
	She's more self-expressed.
	She's not at all self-conscious, right?
	I mean, I think she's a really beautiful baby physically, but she's not conscious of that at all, right?
	And I think that's a beautiful thing.
	And so she is emotionally healthier than I am in many, many ways.
	And that's a very humbling thing.
	It's a very humbling thing.
	The natural joy that she has during the day, the peace of mind, the contentment, the calm that she has during the day.
	I mean, good heavens, I strive to emulate.
	I'm striving to learn from my 10 and a half month old baby.
	And so, to me, the idea that I'm some superior being who needs to mold her because of her ignorance into something that she's not or limit her because she has these terrible tendencies or whatever, to me is crazy.
	I She is a raw, natural, beautiful human being, and I have as much to learn from her in terms of contentment and happiness and excitement and exploration and friendliness, right?
	She's very, very friendly to people.
	We were in a store the other day, and Christina was trying on a coat, and Isabella was fussing, and Christina wanted my opinion, and so the...
	No, she wasn't fussing. Sorry.
	She wanted to be picked up. She wanted to be held.
	I'm trying not to use that word. I'm pretty successful.
	And so the saleswoman said, who has kids, we'd been talking with her for a bit, she's like scooped her up and said, I'll take her.
	And she was gone for a couple of minutes.
	And she was perfectly content going over there because there's no...
	She's supposed to be going through all the separation anxiety, but she's not.
	She's actually fine going with other people.
	So I just think that...
	It is something that she's very secure, she's very friendly, she's very curious, she's very confident, she's fearless, right?
	I mean, she falls, she gets up, she does it again.
	She falls, she gets up, she does it again.
	She topples over, she gets up, she does it again.
	She's fearless, without frustration.
	I mean, there's so much that I can learn from her, that the idea of me being some sort of dominant instructor-type person is something that I simply can't conceive of.
	I mean, I hope to have as calm, content, and happy a day As she does, that to me would be a great step forward.
	And so it's with all humility that I look at what she is able to do naturally and work to try and emulate it.
	Please enjoy the music while your party is reached.
	Excellent. Alright, did we get through to this person?
	Please enjoy the music while your party is reached.
	I can hear the sound.
	Hello.
	Can you hear me? I sure can.
	How are you doing? I'm very well.
	How are you? I'm fine, thank you.
	Um... Well, the point that I wanted to address was, I guess, light because it really doesn't have a lot of bearing on our lives.
	It's a very personal choice question, which is, do you find that there are no aspects of the drug-taking experience that would benefit your It benefits the extent of your perspective and the extent of your ability to see things with the widest array of possibilities being at your disposal.
	I think that I've gotten my point across.
	I don't want to mess up the sentence at this point.
	I appreciate you asking me the question.
	Let me just make sure that I understand it.
	Your question is, Is there no aspect of taking mind-altering substances that are significant, not like a cigarette or a coffee or whatever, significant mind-altering experiences that might expand my perspective or give me some sort of alternate or better perspectives than I have without access to those drugs?
	Is that right? Yeah, and even as basic as anything after the drug is worn off that you feel would Be valuable to your sober experience.
	Well, have you listened to any or many of the podcasts that I and others have done on this channel?
	Very many, yes. Okay, so you've listened to a lot of them.
	Have you yourselves partaken in any of these substances that you are asking about?
	Yes. Okay.
	So, what perspectives have you gained through your use of these drugs that you feel I have missed in what it is that I'm doing?
	Well, I guess I don't have something to put forward immediately.
	Certainly, I would say that it allows me to kind of free flow tangentially, kind of making Making associations for satire specifically because I'm a writer myself and I feel it's just very useful in pre-association and just kind of not relying on logical connection so much but then being able to find logical connections in ideas that you would not normally associate when You're rigorously applying logic in the way that you do when you're sober.
	And I appreciate that.
	I think I understand what you mean.
	Have you listened to any of the Dream Analysis podcasts?
	A few, yes.
	And whether or not you agree with any of the observations that are made in those podcasts, would you say that that is an example of exploring free association and not applying rigorous empirical logic?
	Yes, but I would say that what happens in dreams in that way is more consistently rooted in personal experience and in feelings that are very directly associated with Sorry,
	let me just interrupt you because I think you're giving me a speech when I just kind of asked you a question, and I apologize for interrupting.
	But you're saying that I might benefit because I would be better at free association, at following nonlinear paths of thinking.
	But it would seem to me, and people can tell me in the chat room if I'm wrong, it would seem to me that, and this is just one example out of many that I could think of, it would seem to me that That the Dream Analysis podcast, which I've been meaning to get back to and I certainly do miss, but the Dream Analysis podcasts do follow non-linear paths of thinking where there's a lot of free association of images and thoughts and ideas and insights, and I've never done any of those on drugs.
	And so it would seem to me that it's not an either-or, right?
	So if you're not on drugs, you can only think in a sort of linear, empirical, progressive, syllogistical manner.
	But if you're on drugs, you can think in a more spontaneous manner.
	I don't think that that's necessarily the case.
	I'm not trying to suggest, though, that one without having taken drugs cannot have an excellent ability at deciphering the very complex metaphor that arrives most prominently in dreams.
	I'm saying that those kind of metaphors come up Only or the majority of them come up in our dreams when we're asleep.
	And I would say that that kind of dream experience can then be achieved with the consciousness that comes with being awake, essentially.
	But when I'm analyzing the dreams, I'm obviously not asleep myself and neither am I on drugs.
	And I'm not trying to say that you're wrong.
	I'm just saying that there's an example of free association that It does not require any drugs.
	Because we're exploring metaphors, right?
	I'm sorry? You're not coming up with the dreams.
	You're analyzing them.
	And so, you know, it wouldn't be something...
	Oh, it's less creative. Is that what you mean?
	Yes, but a very...
	I agree with you there, for sure.
	Sorry to interrupt. I completely agree with you that it is much less creative to analyze a dream than it is to come up with it.
	So we can shift examples if you like.
	That to me was an example not of creativity, but of non-linear thinking, because some creativity is quite linear, and some non-creativity is non-linear.
	I don't know if you've read any of my poems or novels, but I've also...
	A poem or a novel in particular, a novel is a kind of lucid dream in a way, right?
	And so I've certainly...
	Whether you think they're good or bad, there certainly is some creativity in the creative writing that I do, which of course I've never done on any drugs.
	And I've actually found, I actually tried to write a poem after having one light beer and couldn't come up with anything.
	I actually find it completely interferes with my creative side.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I understand that, but I feel that you're kind of Maybe I'm miscommunicating a little bit, but...
	What you're saying feels to me that it would suggest that I believe that all wonderful authors must have had drug experiences in order to produce the wonderful works.
	Perhaps you could distill for me what it is that you are arguing, because I feel like I'm responding to stuff and you keep telling me that that's not your point.
	So perhaps you could distill for me what your point is, because I don't want to keep missing in my responses.
	You know, I may have failed miserably in communicating a coherent point.
	No, that's fine. I may have misunderstood, so I'm happy if you want to take another swing at it.
	Okay, so...
	To make it as concise as possible...
	Yeah, maybe the best way to do it is to talk about the ability to appreciate aesthetic and...
	Because of the way that you're able to perceive the world during certain drug experiences.
	There's an aesthetic aspect of the world that you're able to appreciate in a sort of unique way.
	And I have a feeling, of course I'm not sure about it, but I have a feeling that having had those aesthetic experiences that are enhanced or unique to the drug experience would contribute in some sort of significant way to a person's ability to appreciate aesthetic Do you mean,
	I don't mean to diminish what you're saying, but you mean sort of like if somebody's on acid or, I guess, certain potent strains of marijuana, that they can see music, like Northern Lights, or it's like they can see music?
	I know that that's a cheesy way of putting it, but is that sort of what you're referring to?
	Something along those lines?
	No, because that's a little too unreal.
	I mean, that seems to me very subjective, and I'm talking more about some...
	Objective aspects of beauty may be like seeing something of a massive size and appreciating the way that it makes you so small in comparison or just the beauty of particular colors and the way that they match together and that communicating something to you that you wouldn't probably have been able to Right.
	I think maybe I understand.
	I think it was in 2004 I put together a package to apply for a Microsoft award for creative software or whatever and we were a finalist, the company I was working for at the time, we were a finalist and myself and the CMO and the CFO went down To the lakeshore down here in Toronto for the awards presentation.
	And I was there a little bit early and down on the lakeshore here they have these giant windmills, you know, which are supposed to be for generating electrical power.
	These things are, I have no idea what the size is, but gyfrac and tyrannosaurus normus would be the phrase that I would use to describe these things.
	And I actually was able to walk So that I was standing underneath this giant-ass propeller in the sky, and it swept over and over and rotated, and it would look like it was coming down so fast.
	The blades, these huge blades, it looked like they were coming down so fast that they were going to behead me, and then they would just rip up with this huge gust of wind.
	They would rip and roar back up into the sky, and there were three of these blades rotating at a fairly fast clip.
	It was quite windy that day.
	And standing under there was just, it was literally like being Marie Antoinette over and over and over again.
	It was quite a staggering experience, and I've always sort of remembered that.
	And of course, I wasn't on any drugs, but I found that to be a very stirring and wild experience.
	Is that the kind of stuff that you're talking about?
	Yes, yes.
	And I feel that you can have those sort of experiences.
	Not all the time. I mean, that sounds very particular and, you know, of course that came very close to you and it sounds very intense, especially because it's kind of uncommon.
	But I think that, you know, you could go to a particular mountain range and not be able to, I guess, have the awe or the appreciation that you might otherwise have for it.
	And just to even see, I mean, And really, what I'm getting at is that if you were to say that there were some sort of enhanced appreciation that would be wonderful, then of course I would ask, how is the extent of its negative effect so great that it's a deterrent to you?
	Well, but the negative effects of drugs are pretty well understood.
	And so I don't think we need to go into them here.
	Obviously, there are legal effects, which I don't agree with, but the legal effects are, you know, you could end up in jail.
	You, of course, don't know where the stuff is mixed or how it's made, so you could end up with something impure or dangerous added in, because it's black market stuff, right?
	So it doesn't go through the same quality tests as your vitamin pills do.
	There can't be an adversary.
	I'm sorry? I personally do not do hard drugs.
	And if I do, that's not very specifically what I'm talking about, other than perhaps a hallucination or something, but I'm saying even just smoking a joint and being in a wonderful place just to see, or just not being in a wonderful place, as you would have a glass of wine.
	And is it then just legal in that case?
	Yeah, and honestly, I don't know, because I've never tried any drugs, I don't know the degree to which I don't think that pot is like a glass of wine.
	I really don't. Because otherwise you just have a glass of wine, because it would be legal, right?
	So I assume that there's some difference between pot and a glass of wine, because it's not, I mean, I can have a glass of wine and be, you know, perfectly coherent.
	I can drive.
	I'm, you know, perfectly, I'm not hallucinating.
	I'm not seeing colors.
	I'm not, don't get the munchies.
	I don't get, there's no bad trips with a glass of wine, which you can have even with a single joint.
	Exactly one glass of wine.
	I meant to equate it to, you know, going to a dinner party and You know, getting a little bit drunk, but having wine with friends as a social sort of thing.
	Yeah, I don't really have wine with friends as a social thing.
	Occasionally. I mean, I haven't touched alcohol probably since the barbecue, I guess, five or almost six months ago.
	So I have a couple of drinks a year.
	I don't really socialize because I want to really be present to the people that I'm spending time with.
	And that doesn't mean I won't have a beer.
	I think I had a beer or two at the barbecue over the course of a couple of days.
	I really want to be present with the people that I'm interacting with or that I'm spending time with.
	I don't want to be distracted by an experience that is not natural and organic to the situation.
	I think that to me, drugs would be a distraction from the intimacy that I'm trying to achieve with people.
	And to me, there's nothing more delightful than listening and talking and enjoying another person's company.
	Like if, I don't know if you were listening earlier in the show, but we had a fellow and his Girlfriend, it's too small a word, girlfriend, his lover, his companion dropped by and I had a perfectly delightful chat with them and I can't think how that would be improved.
	I can't think how that could have been a better chat or a more enjoyable chat or if only I was seeing tentacles come out of my belly button, it would be better.
	For me, the way that my neurological system, my sense organs work, the way that it all happens There's nothing that needs to be changed or added to it for me.
	There's just nothing that needs to be added.
	To me, one of the fundamental problems, I haven't talked about this before, but one of the fundamental problems that I have with drugs is that it is a statement that says being organically human is not enough.
	Being organically human is not enough.
	Who you are when you're not under the influence of a mind-altering substance is somehow deficient in some manner.
	It's not as good as it could be.
	It's not quite right.
	To me, it's just a mark of lower self-esteem to have that opinion that there's something that needs to be fundamentally changed in how you perceive the world in order for that enjoyment to be increased.
	I don't find that's true of myself.
	I don't find that I sit there thinking, gosh, if only something were altered in my perceptiveness or in my perceptions, if only that were the case, I would really have a better time or experience here.
	Like when people came up To the barbecue or some people are going to drop by for Christmas.
	I think back on that barbecue and the barbecues that we've had.
	And I don't sit there and think, if only we were stoned, it would have been so much better.
	Because it couldn't have been better.
	There was nothing better that could have occurred during those times of social interactions.
	Which doesn't mean that everybody was perfect and it was all perfectly flawless.
	It just means that for me, it couldn't have been better.
	When I'm playing with my daughter, I don't sit there and say...
	If only, you know, I was stoned, this would be so much better.
	If I'm looking at a beautiful sunset or a great work of art or I'm listening to beautiful music, I don't have the thought within me, if only my perceptions were fundamentally altered in some way, this would be so much better.
	It is perfect the way that it is.
	It is without flaw.
	It is without deficiency the way that it is.
	A great conversation is without deficiency.
	As it is, as it stands, it is not missing something.
	It is not short of the mark.
	It is not falling short of the mark.
	It is perfect in the way that it is.
	And that to me is a very important thing to hang on to.
	Because the moment that I feel that something is imperfect in an interaction or an experience, I don't think, well, let me correct this with drugs.
	I think, well, let me correct this with better thinking, with greater intimacy, with a more openness to the beauty of the world and its experiences.
	I think of correcting the deficiencies that Within my own thinking, I don't think of messing up my own perceptions to fix things.
	I don't like the implicit statement that being who you are is deficient in some manner in certain circumstances, which then needs to be patched or filled up with drugs.
	I think that is looking for an external solution to the problem of enjoying the moment.
	I think that we can get there without those drugs.
	I'm sorry to cut you off and I'm sorry to end that with a speech, but I just wanted to check in case anybody else had any other questions or comments that they wanted to add before we close down the show for the week.
	So if you'd like to ask a question, you can put it in the chat room.
	If you would like to chat, you can unmute yourself or we can call you if you would like.
	Thank you very much. I really appreciate your time.
	Thank you so much. It was a very interesting question.
	Thank you. Alrighty.
	Well, this has nothing to do with this fellow in particular, of course.
	I don't know. I don't have any idea who he is.
	But I do think that it's an inflammatory statement.
	Whether it's true or not, I'm not going to say it's just a thought that I have.
	I think that some people get into drugs because they've done things that they're not proud of and they can't enjoy themselves as they are because they don't like who they are.
	And maybe it's a bad conscience that leads people into feeling that something is missing or deficient from their experience that they need to prop up with drugs.
	I think a lot of this world is founded on bad conscience.
	A lot of dysfunction in this world is founded on people who've done bad things who don't want to sort of fess up to themselves who they are.
	Yeah. Again, that's just a theory.
	I'm certainly not going to hang any kind of reputation on that.
	All right, last call for questions, comments, issues.
	Any thoughts about recent shows?
	And you could just jump in for a second or type what you've liked, what you didn't like.
	I'm sad that the...
	I shouldn't laugh because I don't know if this is true or not.
	But this is just a thought that I had.
	I'm sort of sad that the woman who said...
	I'm so hot that all I can be is a dominatrix.
	Didn't drop by for a chat, though I have trouble believing that that is a very real post.
	But I think those who've read it will know what I mean.
	But if it is a real post, I apologize.
	But it doesn't seem like a real post to me.
	And I certainly wasn't expecting her to drop by, but there's a post that was made.
	I'm so hot that I'm going to be a dominatrix because nobody will hire me for real.
	I don't know. It just didn't seem very real.
	And this is somebody who says...
	Well, people just relate to me in a sexual manner and all I'm going to talk about is my desire to be a dominatrix.
	Anyway, we'll see. Perhaps this person will drop by or not.
	We shall find out over time.
	That was actually me. That was you.
	Well, actually, you should be a dominatrix of all the people that I can think of.
	It should be you. Alright, I don't think we have any other questions or issues, so we can stop, I guess, just a few minutes early.
	Oh, how nice to have that kind of flexibility and not be lashed to the camera like a Bad sailor to the front of a ship.
	Oh, we need the announcement.
	60 seconds. 60 seconds to go.
	Try and milk it out to the last syllable, you bald bastard.
	I would just like to remind people that I did do an interview with the Motorhome Diaries fellows, which is available on YouTube, of course, and I will post the link to that in the chat room.
	And I'd like to thank them.
	They were very enjoyable and were very polite about my incessant patter of bad jokes and were very gracious.
	Oh, of course she's going to be in a fancy dress for Christina.
	Absolutely. Positively-lutely, as they say.
	So I will post that link.
	You might want to check it out. It was definitely a fun group to chat with.
	I'll put that in. Thank you everybody so much for your support.
	Oh, there is a beta version of the new site that is up.
	Yes, actually, I don't think there's any particular harm with people going and having a look.
	There's certainly nothing in there.
	I will put a link to that in the chat room if you would like to take a poke at it.
	It is very early and may not even be the eventual architecture, but this is what we have as a possibility.
	So I'm sure everybody will be completely thrilled and will spend the rest of the evening doing nothing but having a look at the beta of the site.
	And if you have any comments, of course, please, as always, do let me know.
	And have yourselves an absolutely wonderful week.
	Thank you for your donation support.
	And it was great to hear from Rod and Amanda again.

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