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Sept. 16, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:08:31
1455 Compliments, a conversation

Do compliments make you uncomfortable?

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All right. Yeah, so this is a conversation about compliments and the challenges of accepting compliments, which I think is a really, really interesting topic.
I certainly have some exciting challenges that way myself.
And Mr. P., you had some thoughts about it, which sort of got this conversation going, which I really appreciate.
And maybe you could tell us what they were.
Sure. I can just read the post I put on the board.
Yeah, that'd be great. Sure.
I have a history of feeling uncomfortable and anxious when complimented on my looks, behavior, or accomplishments.
Both in one-on-one interactions and in group settings, I have an immediate sensation like a hole being shot through me when I'm praised.
It rather feels like the compliment shoots out of the person's lips, darts into my brain to find a coinciding value that I hold that says, I am worthy, but fails to find it and the connection drops.
I'm left with a disconnection and anxiety soon follows as I feel pressured to thank or acknowledge the praise.
It's as though my acknowledgement or appreciation for the compliment is always feigned and never legitimate.
A few people in my life have noticed this discomfort and tension and I've come to better realize it through them.
I've always wrestled with low self-esteem and continue to work on my own through sentence completions, etc.
But I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this type of feeling.
I have the same reaction when someone apologizes to me.
It's like I don't know what to do or how to react.
Fascinating stuff. Fascinating stuff.
And just for those, because, you know, I've sort of become aware as we've become a bigger show that people might bungee in.
To these conversations.
So for those, anybody who's just listening out of order, this is just a conversation among ramp amateurs in the field of self-knowledge.
I'm certainly no psychologist or trained in the field.
I don't think anyone else here is either.
But just, you know, I've sort of been aware as we've been getting bigger that people might not be listening sequence.
And I just sort of want to make that clear that there's no professional credentials being laid on the line here.
But it's just a bunch of people interested in philosophy who are amateurs talking about ideas.
So anyway, I just... Trying to be as respectful to listener variances as possible.
So, you've had a little bit of a chance to think about it since you posted that.
What have you thought about?
Well, I know there were a few people who replied to my thread and appreciated it.
Someone had mentioned they'd shared...
A particular thought that it had to do with, they had a similar reaction, it had to do with their mother and their school teachers and it was kind of like the compliments were dished out as a form of manipulation.
And I know for me, just thinking a bit about this and thinking about my mother, I know that I can certainly link that and she's an extremely needy person and I feel like sometimes when she makes compliments towards me or says I've done something good it's almost a desire she's actually asking for something and I think that's kind of the impression I've had thinking about this is that When I receive a compliment from somebody,
or even if it's an apology, it feels as though there's an onus on me to then do something.
It's not something I can just receive and just receive it.
It's something I have to do something about it.
Okay, and what sort of stuff did you feel that you had to do something about it with?
Or what sort of stuff did you feel you had to do when you were younger?
I just feel, I guess I'm thinking about when I was younger, I feel like I have to, I have to just appreciate it and I have to really make a point of acknowledging the compliment.
And also I'm just kind of thinking of just many times in my adult life when someone will compliment me and I feel like I need to compliment them in return.
Like I immediately have to Like if someone says, wow, this is great pasta, good job, you're a good cook.
It's like, oh wow, well thanks for bringing the wine.
This is really good wine.
And I feel like if I don't do that, then I feel like there's something...
Right, or like judging from your pants, you're a good eater or something like that.
Yeah, I can understand. Yeah.
Or something diplomatic.
Right, right. Well, that's interesting.
And... What is the, if you sort of look inwards and you sort of try and figure out what is going on, what is it that you anticipate will result if you don't reciprocate in that kind of way?
Like if you don't return compliment or sort of, if you don't, if you just accept the compliment, what do you think the result would, like what do you anticipate the result would be?
That's a really interesting question.
I guess what comes to mind, and I want to make sure I answer your question, but when I get the compliment, I feel like I need to do something about it.
And I feel like, like I mentioned in my post, that there often can be just a disconnect where I don't see it the same way they do, or if they think I did a good job, I'll think I didn't do a good job.
So I'll feel, if I don't acknowledge it, I feel like I'll end up sort of...
Feeling that sadness or some sort of sadness from not really agreeing with them inside?
Does that make sense? No.
It may make perfect sense to others.
It doesn't make much sense to me, which may be just my density.
But if you could try taking another run at that, I'd appreciate it.
Sure, sure. I'm just taking a moment to think.
Yeah, so they will compliment me or apologize to me and...
I'm so sorry.
I'm just trying to get too...
I'm not, like, it's...
There's a fear there, and I'm just trying to figure out what it is.
I mean, that was my thought, which, you know, it's just my thought, but the aversion that you talked about in the post, which was really visceral and very strong and very powerful, you likened it to a projectile or a bullet, if I remember rightly.
That's right. I mean, that's really strong for just what I feel like I might feel the other person say.
The feelings that you experience are of, you know, imminent sort of threat, or there's a kind of intensity to it that I'm just trying to match up with your description here, and that's really where my point of confusion is, which may be easily explainable by something, but that's where the gap is that I sort of see.
I see, I see, and I totally understand what you mean.
Because that is really what it does feel like, especially I'm linking it to group settings, but just when someone does compliment me, I just feel like, it's like I can't, sorry, I still don't feel like I'm answering your question, but I just feel like it darts right through me and I don't feel like I can really receive it.
Or take hold of it.
Or relate to it.
I'm sorry. No, no, it's totally fine.
Look, I mean, if you had all the answers, it wouldn't be worth having a conversation, right?
Because I certainly have all the answers around my ambivalence around compliments and praise and so on.
So, I'm like, you know, I'm no further ahead in the fog than you are, but at least this is sort of what I see.
When you say darts through you, can you tell me a little bit more about that?
So, let's pick a compliment that you can remember that's more specific, just so we're not talking too much in the abstract place.
Okay. I'm just trying to think of something specific.
Like, if I did, like in my particular industry, I work on animations, and someone will say, wow, that's a great piece of work.
I mean, that's fantastic.
You're really talented. Yeah.
That makes me feel uncomfortable.
I'm just trying to elaborate on it.
No, that's fine. I mean, I can keep asking questions if you like.
I don't want to flounder like a fish on a hook because it's tough, right?
When you're looking from the inside, it's really, really tough to see yourself.
That's why our community of people to talk about stuff is really important.
Now, do you feel or do you have a differentiator?
Because we all know people who give us insincere compliments, and I think we can all recognize that there are times when those compliments are sincere.
Do you feel the same way whether you feel that the compliment is sincere or insincere?
No, I do feel differently.
If I don't think it's sincere, then I won't take it seriously.
But it's really...
And maybe I can just reference one thing.
I mentioned I have a similar experience when people apologize to me.
And I had just a recent experience of someone sincerely apologizing to me.
And it was sincere.
I could identify that.
And I could appreciate it.
But I still felt like I didn't know what to do with it.
Like I didn't... And maybe I can just elaborate by saying it was an apology from someone which I thought was appropriate because something had been done.
And I was glad that she was apologizing, but it didn't seem to resonate or...
I don't know.
It didn't really do anything for me.
Well, it did something to you, right?
If I understand this rightly, in that you felt anxiety...
If I understand what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, you felt anxiety in the face of the apology because you didn't know how to respond to that or to the genuine apology, right?
That's right. You're exactly right.
It made me anxious.
You're right. So here, and again, tell me if I'm wrong, but what I think I'm getting from you is that you actually feel more anxiety when the apology or the compliment is genuine than when you feel that it's not.
Yeah, it sounds that way.
Yeah, that's right. Well, it sounds that way, but is it that way?
Only you can tell for sure, right?
Yeah, no, I guess just within the context of this conversation so far, you're right.
I think that is the case.
And when you think about this, and I know this is a lot to process all at once and we can move on to something else, but is that the case?
Do you think if it is a genuine compliment or a genuine apology, do you feel more anxious or less anxious or about the same?
I think I feel more anxious.
I feel like, actually, I felt like when I was apologised to it, it was almost a level of intimacy that made me feel uncomfortable.
Just because it was sincere and someone was sort of reaching out to me.
Well, an apology and a compliment, but even more so, an apology is an amazingly vulnerable thing.
It's one of the reasons why it's so tragically rare, right?
It's just, It's an amazingly vulnerable thing to genuinely apologize to someone because you're giving them power over you, right?
That's right, yeah.
And there are families, of course, out there, not all of them, but there are families out there that if you apologize, then that becomes the thing, right?
So if you apologize for something or you really take ownership for something, then some families and some friends and some organizations...
Like, you now will be the guy who did X, right?
So, when I was a kid, if I forgot to bring something, then that became the thing, right?
If I would say, well, I'm really sorry I forgot to bring this, then I would be the guy who just always forgot to bring things, you know?
Like, it actually can be really tricky to apologize in certain kinds of environments because it becomes something that's power over you and can be held over you and And so on.
And so it is a very vulnerable thing.
And I think it's a great honor to be apologized to because somebody is...
Like, to be genuinely apologized to you is a great honor.
Because somebody is saying, I'm giving you this power over me.
And you can...
I believe that you will do right with that power.
Yeah, I agree.
Absolutely. Yeah.
And just to...
You mentioned something I thought of while you were talking.
I know in my family...
Sorry, you thought while I was talking?
But no, with my parents, I mean, when I think about, you know, I take sincere apology on one side and I think of my parents on the other side and I think of, you know, do those two match up?
And I don't know if I've ever received any sort of sincere apology from my parents about I can't remember any sort of sincere apology.
I have a disconnect with that.
You have a disconnect with that.
Okay. Sorry.
Let me just make sure I understand, because that was quite the fog to my face.
Oh, pardon me.
So, your parents, you say, have not apologized to you for anything that you can recall?
I don't remember them ever...
Having real sincerity when they would apologize to me as a child or as an adult.
Like, they don't really say they're sorry when they do things that may bother me or my siblings.
Sorry, when you say they don't really say, do you mean that they do say it but it doesn't feel real or they don't say it at all?
They say it but it doesn't feel real.
Like, I don't think it's sincere.
Right. Okay. Okay.
And, you know, to be fair to parents and children of every family structure...
There's no family where apologies are never required, right?
No family. Parents, children.
I mean, I have a great marriage.
I will still apologize to my wife a few times a week for something.
Sometimes they're just preemptive because I know I'm going to know.
But I mean, I think I'm a pretty good husband and I think I'm a pretty good dad.
And I still will apologize to Isabella or to my wife a few times a week.
And it's just things that I've forgotten about or things I've been distracted or My wife's saying something to me and I'm thinking about a podcast topic and I realize that I haven't listened for like a minute and I'm like, oh man, I'm so sorry.
I drifted.
Just little things, right?
I mean, so even in good relationships, apologies I find to be – I think they're very important for maintaining trust.
And it is not easy, right?
Because there's a weasely part of – Maybe it's a part of all of us, but it certainly is a Weasley part of me that's like, hmm, well, if I just focus and pretend, like I try and reconstruct the conversation, you know, I'll just, she won't ever know, but I just find that's too much work, and I, you know, I assume that at some level she gets if I'm not listening, so I have to, right?
I can, sadly, I can identify with that.
I'm trying to improve on that.
I know I'll try to grab sort of a vague reply out of my head, so it sounds like I've been listening, but Yeah, or you're asking a question that you hope will elicit the information that just passed by, you know, like you're trying to grab the sound of an ambulance siren that just went around the corner or something like that, so it is tough for sure, and even in these conversations,
right, I will sometimes, because I have to do this stupid switchboard stuff from time to time, like people all caps saying, please add me, you know, and I have, so I may miss a few things and there are times where I have to go back and say, I'm so sorry I missed or whatever, right, so I think even in good relationships, apologies are You know, maybe not daily for me, but certainly a couple of times a week.
And I don't anticipate that's going to be any different with Isabella.
And I imagine it's going to be higher with Isabella than it is with my wife because, you know, this house and me and my wife, we're the world to her, whereas, you know, I have, you know, a job and, you know, all these other – I want to read books and there's all these other things that I – and I go to the gym, right? Yeah. So that imbalance of focus is going to be different.
So I don't assume that's going to be any different.
So I think that in a relationship, and again, it's just my opinion, but I think in a relationship where there is a non-awareness of authentic apologies, that to me indicates a real problem in the relationship because it means that there seems to be a lack of trust.
I trust that If I say to my wife, I'm so sorry, I just, I stopped, I got distracted, I wasn't listening for like a minute or two, right?
I'm so sorry. That she's not going to say, oh, that's just typical, blah, blah, blah, you know, get all mad and, you know, because that would raise the stakes and then, but it's just that constant maintenance of trust and all of that kind of stuff.
So where that stuff is not absent, sorry, where that stuff is absent in relationships, where there isn't a free flow of the general, or a general awareness of the continually needed lubricant of apologies, I think it's a very productive aspect of a relationship to think about.
Right, right, that makes a lot of sense.
So, let's think about it.
Yeah, in terms of trust, I think that's something I struggle with a lot with my parents.
Would that be helpful to talk about my parents?
Well, I think that was the relationship that, I mean, it's always good when you have these kinds of really deep-seated problems, in my opinion.
It's always good to start with childhood experiences.
I mean, because it's so deep into your...
Into your spine, right?
As you say, it goes through you, right?
It is a very deep, deep feeling, and the deeper the feeling, the earlier to look, right?
That's just a general rule of thumb that I work with, you know, rightly or wrongly.
I just think that's, and that certainly has been the most productive in terms of self-knowledge for me.
So I think, yeah, if it started with your parents, or you've thought about it in regards to your parents, I think it's an excellent thing to examine.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Now, I guess in terms of my parents, I mean, when it comes down to trust, I guess I can say at this point in my life and after being exposed and being exposed to your work, thank you very much for it.
I think I've come to realize that there really isn't much trust in my family and I certainly don't trust my parents much in any way.
I mentioned before that my mother is extremely needy.
She's suffered from basically chronic anxiety her entire life and it's been much, much worse in the last probably five or six years.
And she's always been kind of depressive.
And part of that has been...
I'm sorry to interrupt. You said depressive.
I'm not sure what...
Do you mean depressive to others or depressed herself?
Oh, pardon me. Yeah.
Just depressed herself.
Okay. She came from quite an abusive family.
And my mother has just always been...
Extremely needy.
Like I didn't really realize that until I started doing a bit of work on myself.
And like she's, she calls, I haven't talked to her or either of my parents for about two months.
And she tends to call just to talk about whatever's going on in her life.
So I basically pick up the phone, she identifies herself, and she talks for about 15 minutes and the call is over.
So I don't have any trust in my parents that they actually care about me.
That's kind of where I'm going with this.
I just want to interrupt.
I'm so sorry about that.
I think I can really identify with that.
But I just want to point out, I'm so sorry.
I mean, that is a very sad situation.
I mean, you can't look forward to these calls, I would imagine, and just sort of sit through them and hang up.
That's very, very sad.
There's not more curiosity or engagement or any level, really, of reciprocity, as you described.
I mean, that's so sad.
I appreciate you saying that.
It's... I think for a long time, I think you've said before that one parent usually gets off the hook or one is seen as the worst.
But I've also started to see how my dad just kind of...
My father, he actually never makes any attempts to call me.
It's always my mother. So even though she calls just to give me a lot of drivel, My father just never calls.
He just doesn't contact me whatsoever.
I think it's not something I necessarily feel disappointed about.
Well, no, that's not true.
I feel disappointed. Yeah, I can't imagine that.
I'm in a process right now where I'm trying to To get in touch with the emotions and some of the anger that I have towards them, and I'm not quite getting there, so I guess I want to try and claim that they're not affecting me, or I'm free and clear of their influence, but I know that's not true.
No. No, I mean, I can't imagine.
I mean, if you do find a way, do let me know!
I really can't imagine.
Now, your mother's anxiety, is this something, and again, we're just using all these terms from an aperture standpoint, but is this something that she's aware of?
Like, does she say, I am an anxious person, I have problems with anxiety?
Is it something that she's aware of, or is it not something that she's aware of?
No, it is something she's aware of.
In the last six years, basically six years ago, we had just an event in our family that It just kind of was very difficult for my parents and she started to get a lot more anxious and basically she has had to be hospitalized off and on for her condition and she's seen many therapists.
She's a psychiatrist now who dishes out prescriptions to her now and yeah that's about the state of affairs.
Right, so she's on medication for anxiety.
Has she done much talk therapy, do you know?
She's done some, but I've talked to her about it and she's convinced it is of no use to her.
And do you know why she thinks that?
I think the people she talked to, she wasn't convinced she was getting any results from the talk therapy.
And I've had many conversations with her to try and convince her otherwise.
And are you doing any talk therapy, if you don't mind me asking?
I have been in talk therapy.
I'm not presently. I recently moved to a new city, so I'm just currently on the waiting list.
Okay, I mean, it doesn't sound like an interesting question.
I appreciate it.
So has the medication in your experience or in your opinion, has the medication helped your mother or no?
No, I don't think it has and it actually led to my mother agreeing to EST, electroshock therapy, and she had quite a few treatments for that but it didn't seem to work out.
I don't think anyone really knows what to do with her anymore.
And I think my dad is just...
He's kind of become her caretaker, because she's kind of a...
She's up and down all the time, I think.
Yeah. And do you remember, and I appreciate you talking about this, and if you don't want to, just let me know, but do you remember a time when you were younger where your mother's anxiety or symptoms seemed less, or would you say that it's been more or less constant?
You know, that's an interesting question.
I thought a while ago that it had been totally different when I was young, and she'd been a lot happier, and it's only been In the last six or seven years that she's been just doing very, very poorly.
But I recently saw, I recently looked at a home video I hadn't seen in probably since it was recorded when I was around the age of 10.
And I was shocked to see she was basically the exact same person.
So it's been consistent.
Yeah, because there can be a kind of mythology that grows up around the golden age, you know?
Like the Garden of Eden phase of mankind, the golden age of the family, boy, when we were younger and, you know, things went bad more recently and so on, right?
I mean, and I don't know, maybe it's true sometimes, but it doesn't often hold up under much examination.
Right, yeah, that's true.
I mean, there is a certain robustness that people have when they're younger, even if they have mental afflictions, as it sounds like your mother does.
But, I mean, there is a certain robustness.
Like, you know, when you're 20, you can stay up all night and drink and get up for work the next morning and so on.
And then when you're 40, you can't really nearly as well, right?
So there is a kind of robustness that people have or a functionality that they have.
You know, like a smoker can still run for the bus when he's 25, but not when he's 55, right?
Yeah. So, there is a kind of golden age.
And also, you know, when we're children, it's harder to see the flaws of our parents.
We get them unconsciously, but it's harder to process them, right?
It's not something we want to look at directly, because things aren't going to change for us for quite some time.
So, we don't really want to look at that too much.
So, a lot of things combine, I think, and there can be this kind of perception of a golden age.
And it sounds like that may have been the case with your family, and it also sounds like when you look back, it's the part of you, at least when you were connecting with the part when you were 10, Yeah, that's exactly it.
I mean, until probably about two or three years ago, I thought our family was relatively great and we were doing fantastic.
I'm sorry, can you just say that again?
You said until two or three years ago your family was great and doing really fantastically?
Yeah, like I thought, you know, I knew we weren't the closest family.
Like, my parents would never use the words, like, I love you.
And in my early 20s, I decided to start using them because I noticed other people, other parents would use them.
So I kind of, they followed my lead and started saying that to me.
So I guess I'm just trying to say that I thought our family was...
I don't know, I thought maybe we were doing better or something, but I just didn't really think about it.
Does that make sense?
I hope I'm making sense here.
It does. It really does make sense to me, for sure.
I don't think that it's something that you would have come up with on your own.
I think it was probably something that, again, it's part of sort of the family Mythology, right?
I mean, the mythology that is associated with families, where it's like, you know, we've had some tough times, but we pulled together and blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
And it's sort of like, you know, if you don't mind the analogy, it's sort of like Soviet propaganda.
It's like, it's put forward quite repetitively, and sometimes forcefully, which does not mean abusively, but there's always this feeling that if you question it, it's like a house of cards, right?
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um...
You were about to say something, or...?
Oh, no. Okay.
Sorry. All right.
So, if you sort of had to say, I mean, you know, just talk about your mom.
With regards to your mom, do you feel visible with her?
Like that she sees you like sometimes or always or often or never, you know, again, just off the top of your head?
Other times where you feel that there's a real connection or does it feel a little bit like those opposing pole magnets trying to push those together?
I don't think she sees me at all.
And largely I think I've had to...
Hide who I am in order to be the good son, like the good, the one that turned out alright, or the one we're proud of.
Right, right, right.
So there's a sibling who went off the rails, is that right?
And again, if this is to do with the family disaster you talked about earlier, we don't have to go into it, because again, it's the third party.
I just wanted to sort of understand that there was another brother, or sister, it doesn't really matter the gender, where there is a comparison to you, right?
Yeah, there was just a sibling of mine who was clinically diagnosed with depression, and it was just a big thing for our family.
Right. Okay, and did you receive compliments when you were a kid?
I think you said that you did receive compliments, but you felt that they were insincere.
Is that right? Yeah, I did feel they were insincere.
And I also, one thing that I should mention is, I haven't talked much about my father, I'll just mention this, is that...
He's not very in touch with his emotions.
Well, I should just say he's not in touch with his emotions.
He uses humor as kind of a defense.
Like whenever I would share something with him, even as a child, like say a drawing, if I was excited about it, he would sort of, he has this way of mocking.
It's just sort of like he kind of mocks your excitement.
Like if you go to him and you have something serious to talk to him about, He kind of makes this face like it's not important to him.
And it's... It was...
It upsetted me for years.
And I've just kind of...
I think I've stopped trying to tell him anything that...
Or share anything that I find of value.
So... Again, I'm trying to understand.
I think I do, but I want to make sure I really get it.
So he sort of says or he implies that it's small or that it's petty or that it's unimportant or is he distant and ironic and, you know, well, you're only excited about this because you're young or, you know, it's all been done before.
I'm trying to sort of understand because I get the deflation aspect of it.
But what is it that you feel is sort of being conferred, if that makes any sense?
Right, it does. It's definitely on sort of the other end.
It's not ironic.
It's just sort of like...
It just seems like a...
He just doesn't care.
I mean, it's like a... It's a failure to recognize or try to connect with me and understand Why I'm so interested in something or why this is so important or...
I don't quite believe you, if you don't mind me saying so.
And not because I think you're telling me any falsehoods.
It's just that the emotion, and this is all just my gut, right?
But the emotion that I got out of when you first started talking about your dad versus there's a failure to connect, doesn't connect to me in the way that when you earlier said...
That it kind of went right through you and then it wasn't that important to you, that there seems to be a disconnect between those two things?
If there's simply a failure to connect, then it's not that painful, right?
But if there's something more, like when you bring something that you really care about to your dad, there's got to be something more than a failure to connect.
At least that's what I got out of the first time that you said it, and maybe I'm wrong, but does that make any sense?
Yes, it does. Yes, it does.
I think it's like he wants to make fun of you for caring so much about something and sort of mock you for thinking you're important or you've done something or thought something of any value.
Does that help? Yeah, so is it sort of like, I'm trying to understand, and just tell me if I'm just, I just want to make sure I can get into these issues, because I think they're important with regards to compliments, which was the general topic.
But is it, who are you to think that you could contribute anything important to?
Yeah, I'd say that hits home.
Okay. Now your father, of course, would be aware that there are people in the world who contribute important things, right?
Absolutely, yeah. So it's not like if you go up to your dad and you say, I'm going to get me some Nike jump boots and ping off to the moon, right?
He would say, well, that's crazy because nobody can do that.
So he would be aware that there are some people who contribute important and powerful and wonderful things to the world or terrible things to the world and who are...
You know, great spirits or great souls or whatever, right?
Like he would know about, I don't know, Albert Schweitzer, Winston Churchill, you know, Lincoln.
I mean, just to take the stereotypes, whether they're true or not, he would know that there are some people who contribute great things to the world in the popular idiom.
But what would your relationship be to those people?
Because in being excited about something big, it's not that it's impossible for you to do it because what one man can do, another man can do.
But what would his perspective be?
Because it wouldn't be something impossible that you would be bringing to him, right?
So what would his perspective be with regards to that?
I feel like that's a tough question, and I'm just trying to...
Well, there must be two classes of people at least.
I'm just working this logically, right?
And maybe it works or maybe it doesn't, right?
But there must be two classes of people, right?
So if I'm just trying to sort of picture it, right?
So if my daughter comes to me and says, I don't know, in five years or whatever, I want to be a Broadway star, right?
Mm-hmm. You know, I would say, hey, let's sign you up for Twinkle Toes Dance Lessons with Daddy and we'll both go for the auditions, right?
Or, you know, I would say, well, let's get you some singing lessons, let's get you some, you know, and see if you like it.
Obviously, first and foremost, see if you have any talent or ability, right?
I mean, and desire and so on, and we'll give it a shot, right?
Because it's not outside the realm of possibility that she could be a Broadway star, right?
Because there are Broadway stars and there will be when she grows up and so on, right?
But if, on the other hand, I responded and said, you know, that's never going to happen.
The odds of that are so tiny that it's never going to happen, right?
Your legs are chunky, you're not tall enough, your hair is too frizzy, you know, whatever it is.
I don't even know if I'd even make up a reason if I were that kind of parent, right?
But it would be, I would admit that there are some people who become Broadway stars, but we, or rather you, are not one of them.
So there's two classes of people, right?
And there's this impermeable barrier or ceiling between the two, right?
We can't rise up to be with the stars, and they will never come down to lift us up.
So forever the two will be separated.
Does that make any sense?
Yes. Yes, that does make sense.
And certainly I'd put my father in the latter category, where there's just sort of a I think he believes there's a ceiling to what we can do or what we can achieve.
But who's the we? Who's the we here?
I mean, I always find it so, so, so important for self-knowledge to map the worldview of our parents.
You know, whether we like them or not, or love them or not, or maybe even more importantly, if we don't like them or love them, it is so, so important to map the The worldview of our parents so that we can delineate where it shows up within us, right?
Right, right. So I'm just trying to get this straight.
So we could be more than me or myself?
Well, in his worldview, there are people who...
You know, you can't go past the supermarket checkout without seeing pictures of movie stars on a beach or whatever, right?
There are people who achieve their dreams, who...
You know, do great things, great just meaning, you know, meaningful and obviously things that they like to do.
There are people, right?
There are artists, there are politicians, there are people who are movie stars, there are people who are singers and models or whatever.
They achieve the things that they want to achieve.
They set out to achieve goals that are sometimes very hard to achieve.
And they achieve them. And so there are...
He would, you know, because he's not crazy, he would be aware that there are those people in the world.
But... For you and he, I would assume as well, that's not a world that we can get to, right?
Like we're on the dark side of the moon and the movie stars on the beach are in the world.
We can't get there. There's no spaceship.
We can't get there. Does that make any sense?
Yeah, it makes perfect sense for sure.
Yeah, it does.
So what's the difference?
Why can't you get there?
I just don't think he believed in us.
I mean, and I'm...
I don't believe my father has ever had much in the way of self-esteem either.
I don't think he ever really believed in himself.
He recently retired from just sort of a full-time job with the city.
I mean, he never really pursued himself.
Any dreams that he really ever had.
Do you think that he had dreams?
He did.
I mean, I think he was interested in...
He was a musician, and that's one of his hobbies, but I don't really know if that was something he ever really was shooting for.
Right. Right.
Now, I mean, it is tough.
I mean, just projecting myself forward many years.
It is tough as a parent. Like if your kid says, I want to bring back vaudeville or something, you know, like whatever.
And you say, well, I don't know the odds of that.
Like if my daughter wants to become an actress, right?
I mean, it's stressful as a parent if your kid wants to do something like that, for sure.
And if she wants to become a doctor, well, she'll become a doctor or whatever, right?
Or a lawyer or something, right?
But if she wants to become an actress, it's like, oh man, you know, talk about feast or famine, right?
98% of people make 2% of the money and all the rest of the money goes to everybody else.
And, you know, there's lots of rejection and stress and travel and agents and complications and so on, right?
Now, some people do it for sure.
And some people... Most people don't, but some people do.
So it can be a little bit stressful if you have, you know, that kind of kid.
But that doesn't exactly sound like you weren't sort of sitting there saying, you know, I'm going to bring back the breakdance, you know, start with my own Broadway show or something.
I mean, you've gone into a, you know, stable, in-demand technical career, and so you're not that kind of, you know, I'm going to join the circus kind of kid, right?
Exactly, yeah. Yeah.
Right. Yeah. So it's different.
The kind of dreams that you have are different, right?
That's right. They are different.
Yeah, I mean, what I shot for was kind of in the visual world, more visually oriented.
I understand that he didn't know much about that, but I just felt like there was just not something I could share with him.
That's how I felt. I felt like it was not something he was really interested in.
Right, which is, you know, I strongly, strongly believe that there's no such thing as indifference in intimate relations or close relations, and particularly in the family.
There's no such thing as indifference.
I mean, 99.999% of the world is utterly indifferent to what I'm doing with this philosophy show, right?
Could not care less.
Never even heard of it. Or if they have, they just don't care, right?
Right. And they're perfectly welcome to their indifference because they have lives to live and certainly it's nobody's job to support my dream or whatever, right?
But, you know, if my best friend is indifferent to it, that's quite a different thing, right?
Right, right, right.
I understand. And I guess what I'd point out is that you're kind of handing foggy get-out-of-jail-free cards all over the place.
Wow. You know, to be blunt.
I mean, this is what I perceive.
It could be right or wrong, but this is my experience.
No, I appreciate that.
I mean, I'll have to definitely re-listen to this, because I was totally unaware.
Right, and what happens is you will say something that is, I think, or it feels very true, right?
Like, my father would put down what it is that I wanted.
And then you will modify it to...
Well, he was kind of indifferent and I didn't know how to bring it up with him.
Yeah, you're right. Those two are not at all the same thing.
And I think that the second one is not believable because it's impossible.
It's impossible for a parent to be genuinely indifferent to his child's dreams and aspirations.
It's not possible. The indifference has a message.
The indifference has a meaning, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
You're right. You're right.
And I guess that's, I feel like that's territory that I haven't really ventured into just yet, where I can't just sum it up as indifference and move on, that it goes farther than that.
Well, it's painful, right?
I mean, if you're bringing something that you really treasure to a parent and the parent is putting it down or mocking it or whatever, you know, these abstract ways that he would have of diminishing it.
But that's really painful, right?
Because much like your mother, my guess would be that it's all about him and not about you.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's right. That's right.
And that's a painful place to go to, right?
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
It is. It is. And I guess I'm just thinking, just trying to think about this, trying to connect it back to this sort of topic of compliments.
And I just, I don't know.
There's... Sorry, I was going to try and connect it back there, but I'm having a hard time doing it.
Do you want me to throw a rope and see if it lands on anything useful?
Oh, if you could, I'd really appreciate it.
I'll try not to throw both ends of it this time.
Well, this would be my guess, right?
And my nonsense amateur opinion would be something like this.
The reason that genuine compliments and apologies...
As you say, go right through you.
It's because I don't think that you have much, if any, experience how to be in a conversation where it is actually about you.
Yeah, that – It's like being hit with electrical cables.
Because visibility is, I mean, we all hunger for that so much, to be visible to people.
Doesn't mean they have to agree with us, doesn't mean they have to approve, but the people who are close to us, and the definition of closeness to me is to be visible to the other person.
Right, right.
That makes a lot of sense.
Just referencing what I said about my mother as well, just how all of our interactions are focused solely on her.
Even if I try to bring up something that's going on in my life, the conversation will shortly kind of turn back to her life and what's going on with her.
Right. That makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, and I think that's, I mean, to your credit, I mean, you have a friend in your life who will give you the honor of a genuine apology and the trust of a genuine apology, and you feel the difference between that and, say, a call from your mom or whatever, right?
But, you know, if...
It doesn't sound like you...
Have experienced much of what, you know, sometimes could be called mirroring or whatever.
Which, I mean, this has been from when Isabella was just a few months old.
That if she made an expression and you made the same expression back, she was delighted.
And that still continues.
I was just, I was feeding her at lunch today.
And we're, you know, trying new foods, some of which she likes.
And some of which end up in a lovely little rainbow arc all over the kitchen.
And, you know, she didn't like something.
And she made a face.
And I made the face back to her. Now, I didn't want to make it back in a kind of mocking way.
But I wanted her to understand that I got that she didn't like it.
So she screwed up her nose and pursed her lips or whatever.
And I made the face back with her.
Not mocking, not with a half smile, but just so she got that I got that she didn't like it.
And then I gave her something to drink to wash away the taste and gave her something else to eat.
But the fascinating thing was that she really disliked...
The food. The moment I mirrored her expression back, she started smiling.
Even with the bad taste of the food in her mouth that she didn't like.
Wow. Because she was happy that I saw her expression.
She was happy that she saw her expression reflected back, which meant that I understood it and I was communicating, because she's still pre-verbal of course, but I was communicating back that I understood what she was saying.
You know, when she's happy and excited and she's sort of waving her hands around, I will sit in the same position and wave my hands around sometimes and she just completely falls over, giggling.
Because she's seeing who she is reflected back in her environment.
And when she's unhappy, I have to remind myself that my job is not to make her happy.
Not to turn her mood around because she's not a train that I can change the track on because her unhappiness is not as pleasant for me as her happiness.
So it's not to distract her and to...
My job is not to distract her and to make her happy, right?
Like if she bumps her head, my job is to comfort her, not to make funny faces until she smiles.
My job is to recognize that she's her, to comfort her, and then let her feel better when she's ready to feel better.
And that kind of accepting and that kind of mirroring, it really is just seeing her for who she is and not as something for my convenience.
And that is such a fundamental need, I believe, in people, that she loved it when she was three months old.
Right, right, right.
Wow.
I just feel like you've given me so much to think about already.
And if a compliment is genuine, if the compliment is genuine, then it is a kind of visibility.
Right, right.
And I'm not...
Sorry, go ahead. I was just going to say, I guess I feel like I'm not used to having that spotlight shown on me.
It's like I'm finally being acknowledged or being seen as...
Worthy of some sort of sincere form of, you know, a compliment or apology.
That was just what I was going to say.
Right, right. And I know you've said, I'm perfectly happy to stop the conversation if you want now.
I had one other thought that I think might be of use to you, but we can talk about it another time if you want to just sit and, you know, listen to this again or whatever process what we've talked about.
No, I'd be happy to hear it if you'd like.
Sure. Okay. My daughter doesn't have to do anything for me to worship her, right?
I mean, she doesn't have to learn how to do something new, but she doesn't have to do something in order to...
I mean, it's unconditional, right?
She's my daughter.
I chose to have...
A baby and unfortunately got my wife drunk enough to agree.
And so it's not...
She doesn't need to do anything.
She simply has to be. Now, I'm happy that appreciating her for who she is gives her pleasure and makes her happy and all that kind of stuff.
And I think that stuff all works.
But that phase is...
Is fleeting, is passing.
That is not going to be her experience when she is an adult.
And this is not just my opinion.
I mean, there's some pretty good studies out there that say, if you praise a child for being intelligent, that child will become risk-averse.
Because the child believes that he has value for being intelligent, and therefore he does not want to do anything where he feels dumb, because then he feels like he doesn't have value, right?
Right, right. Now, one of the things that I found toughest to work through, and the reason I'm talking about myself is not because I don't want to talk about you, but because I can't talk about you because These are your experiences, but I will just tell you my experiences and see if they make any sense to you,
whether they match or not. One of the things that I had to work through that was really, really one of the toughest things when I was going through very deep and intensive therapy and so on, was letting go of the basic fact that I was never going to get that unconditional Love as an adult.
I was never, ever going to get that unconditional love as an adult.
And I don't think it's healthy to get unconditional love as an adult.
That seems to me like stalking or obsession or something like that.
Unconditional love is for babies.
Unconditional love is for children.
Unconditional love is not for adults, in my opinion.
That phase is gone.
Unconditional love for adults is like grown men breastfeeding, right?
It doesn't fit.
It fits perfectly with children and babies, rather.
It does not fit With adults.
Because I am an adult.
I am not a baby.
I have consciousness, reason, moral, a moral sense, I have moral choices, I have the accumulated good and bad decisions of my life.
A baby has no moral responsibility, a functional adult does, and therefore unconditional love cannot apply to an adult in the same way that it does to a baby.
I mean, I certainly...
I mean, if Isabella...
She hasn't, but if she threw something across the room, I would not be upset with her.
If my wife throws something across the room, I will be, right?
Because... So, it just...
It cannot be the same.
Right? Right, right.
We can't ever go back and bathe...
In the warm glowing mother's milk of beatific and perfect and unconditional love, regard, affection, care, concern, mirroring, devotion and worship.
We simply can never go back to get that and that remains a hungry need within us.
And this hungry need for unconditional love is what fuels bullshit like sports and gods and patriotism and tribalism.
Right? My country, right or wrong?
What does that mean? It's the infant's cry for unconditional love.
I love my sports team even if they lose.
I might be mad at them, but I'm still a fan.
My sports team, right or wrong?
My God, right or wrong?
My tribe, right or wrong?
My culture, right or wrong?
I mean, if we actually did get the unconditional love that we needed as children, we wouldn't be such vacuums for unconditional love as an adult and have that as a huge lever that people in power use to control us.
And I would guess that the avoidance, like the little bit of sort of minefield skirting that you're doing, is around that, right?
That it is a wrenching...
Grieving that I think a lot of people need to go through, and the lack of going through it, the avoidance of that grieving, which I'm not saying you're doing that, I'm just saying it's a possibility.
And I certainly don't think that you're doing it consciously, that's why I'm sort of mentioning it in this way.
The unmet needs, if we had them as children, will never, ever, ever, ever, ever be met.
Because we're no longer children.
There's no point Feasting on calcium when you're 30 if you didn't get enough when you were 5 just make you sick.
You can't go back and get it again.
And so when somebody gives you a compliment or sometimes a criticism or an apology where it is genuinely about you that brings up a lot of pain.
Right? Imagine you're in the desert and you sort of You've been thirsty for hours and hours and hours, but you've kind of forgotten about it because you're worried about getting out of the desert and so on.
And then you see, you know, a big pitcher of your favorite drink, you know, iced tea or Coke or whatever, your favorite drink.
Suddenly your thirst is going to hit you like a hoof beat to the face, right?
Because it's right there in front of you.
And it's the same thing if we have unmet needs and then somebody meets those needs.
It's really painful.
Because we suddenly realize just how thirsty we are.
And I would say that's why the compliment, they go right through you.
Because somebody sees you for who you are, it opens up everything that was not there before around visibility.
And mirroring and tenderness and intimacy and curiosity and love.
Stefan, I'm just at a loss for words.
I think that's so true. - Do you know when I, this is how crazy it was for me.
When I was in theatre school, we did an intimacy exercise.
And it really wasn't around intimacy, it was around acting, right?
And it sounded so ridiculous.
Whenever you get a script and you're an actor, you want to act, you want to thunder, you want to make all of this passion and scream at people, Stella, all this stuff.
We had this teacher from New York who intimidated all of us because she was just New York, New York, just aggressive.
She had us sit across a table.
We had a table facing each other.
We did this exercise where we were both given a script, two actors were given a script, and you had to look at the line on the page.
You know, the line could be anything, you know, good morning, how did you sleep, or whatever it was in the play.
And you couldn't act it, because the first thing you wanted was to go, good morning, how did you sleep?
You wanted to go and act it, right?
And the exercise was to read the line just to yourself, to take a deep breath, to look at the other person, And just say the line.
Not act. Not act.
Just say the line while looking at the other person.
And then the other person had to look down, read their line, look up, look you in the eye, and read the line.
Just simple human communication.
Now, the lines were scripted and so on, but that really wasn't the point.
The point was, can you connect with another human being?
Holy crap. I mean, you should have seen what it did to people.
And we're all sitting there saying, well, it can't be that hard.
Give me the script. I'll go and do it, right?
So when I sat down to do it, I remember I was sitting across from a guy.
And I don't have any idea what the lines were or anything like that.
But the teacher kept, you know, with her New York, and I can't do a New York accent, but she said, relax your shoulders, you know?
Your legs are tense, right?
Relax your arms. Relax your cheek.
Your jaw is tense. Loosen your jaw.
You know, she was that kind of person, right?
And... As I felt my body begin to relax, because, you know, I was trying to, you know, be a good student, relax, and I was looking at this guy across the table.
And this is why I say it was like a hoofbeat to my face, because I literally, I felt it coming.
I felt it coming like a freight train through a soap bubble.
The emotion, the emotion just welled up.
I just burst into tears.
And I think it's the only time in my life where, you know, you could have paid me a million dollars to not cry and I would have just said, bye-bye, one million dollars.
And the teacher was like, don't worry, it shows a good degree of sensitivity.
Which I thought was, you know, okay, well, that's one way of putting it, right?
And the fact that I was actually, this was not therapy or anything, but I I was in an environment, you know, and I was crying and so on.
And, you know, I struggled through the exercise.
And then afterwards, a guy who was – another guy, his name was Chuck.
Nice guy, actually. He was from Newfoundland.
And he went out and he bought a candy bar and he brought it to me and he said, you know, I thought you might want this.
That looked rough.
And it was a really astounding day for me.
And I was 19 or 20, I think.
And, you know, just that I had that – The tears were what had not been present, which was just relaxed connection.
The fact that the teacher was not humiliating me for crying.
The fact that a guy just bought me a candy bar.
All of this is as vivid to me as if it happened this morning.
And that's the unmet needs, I believe.
And it's hard, it's hard, it's hard to face those unmet needs and people You know, we invent philosophies, we invent ideologies, we invent religions and countries and political parties and all that.
What is it all for? What is it all for?
Why do we need all of this stuff?
Well, to avoid the landmines of absence that have detonated our histories.
So that's what I would focus on.
Again, I don't want to tell you what your experience is, right, at all.
And your experience may be completely different from mine.
But I certainly grew up with no mirroring.
In fact, with anti-mirroring, right?
Because there's no such thing as no mirroring in a family relationship between parent and child.
Because if the mirroring is withheld, it's, to me, an act of abandonment and aggression.
And so there's no such thing as no mirroring.
There's only anti-mirroring, right?
You either nurture a child or you harm the child.
There is not indifference or neutrality in the middle.
I don't feed people in India.
That doesn't make me a bad person.
If a guy is locked in my basement and I don't feed him, that's different, right?
That's no longer indifference.
That is a crime.
Right, right. No, I thank you so much for relating those stories.
I really connected with those.
You've just given me a real wealth of things to consider, and I feel so appreciative.
Thank you. And I feel...
I was kind of feeling anxious because I feel like I wasn't contributing enough to this conversation.
But I just...
Wow, you've just given me so much to consider.
And I know you want to jump, and I certainly do appreciate that, and I respect that.
Let me just ask you one question before you go, which is just...
I mean, I know that...
If you've talked about this not feeling visible to other people, and I know I did spend some time talking about myself and what I think, did that occur for you like I was not in the conversation with you?
I don't want to be grandstanding.
I don't want to be speechifying or anything like that.
I did try to relate stuff that I had experienced that I think would be similar, but I just wanted to check, and you can obviously be completely honest with me because I really want to make sure that these conversations are as high a quality as possible.
Did you feel that the conversations that I was having was, you know, that included you or was directed at you, was helpful towards you?
Or did you feel that I kind of went off on some mountaintop and yelling at the clouds or something?
Oh, no, no, not at all.
Not at all. I really did appreciate it.
I was able to connect to it.
I mean, you know, I saw it as all relevant and I really appreciate it.
I mean, I kind of came to this conversation with sort of the ideas I'd posted on the forum and some thoughts I'd had afterwards.
But I think pretty quickly...
I realized with just some of your questions, I was kind of drawing blanks, and I think what you've talked about is going to really help me mine for those answers that just weren't coming up.
All right, well, I will send you a copy of this and listen to it.
I mean, we haven't used any names or identifying characteristics, and I certainly do think other people would benefit from the conversation, but feel free to have a listen to it, of course, first.
And I really, really do appreciate it.
I know it was a tough call for you in some ways.
You know, I thought you were wonderful.
And honest and open.
And I really, really do appreciate you taking the time to have the call and to bring up the topic, which I know was a challenging one.
Oh, you're absolutely welcome.
And thank you as well.
I'll try and do something about that fog.
Well, you know, that's what we're all doing, right?
Just hacking through some firebrands of reason and evidence through the fog.
And I know you have to go, but if there's other people who wanted to, if you had any other thoughts that you wanted to add, and you're certainly welcome to stay, but it sounds like you've got a bit of a pants in your pants.
Other people are welcome to add anything that they wanted to.
I don't have to go to bed just yet.
So if anybody wanted to add anything to this call, grab a mic and yowl away.
I think we have rendered them speechless.
Okay.
Excellent. That either means that they've fallen asleep or it was a good conversation.
I think it was the latter. All right.
Okay. Well, let's cut it off then.
And I will send you a copy of this.
And thank you again so much for the conversation.
I really, really enjoyed it and appreciate it.
Thank you, Steph. Thank you.
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