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Sept. 3, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:07:40
1450 Donation Resistance
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Time Text
Hello. Hello. Hi.
Hi, how's it going? Pretty good.
Just kind of, yeah, slightly nervous and this is a bit surreal.
I can imagine.
I can imagine. So how did you find out about the show to begin with?
I was playing...
This is going to sound like such a weird story.
I was playing World of Warcraft and I basically met someone through World of Warcraft and they...
He did a few talks on Ventrello, and he thought I might be interested in FDR, so he linked me to FDR, and then, yeah, bam.
Cool. Virtual marketing, that's really cool.
I thought you didn't actually play World of Warcraft.
I thought you just lived it.
I thought playing it was considered for the week.
You actually have to just live it, top to bottom.
Pretty much, yeah. I mean, that's pretty much how I was.
I mean, I was on my gap year at the time, and my gap year basically consisted of...
You know leaving World of Warcraft to eat and then going back to World of Warcraft.
Sorry, gap year is that where you have to wear cargo pants the whole time?
What does that mean? It was the year I didn't apply to university after I finished college and then I took the year off to work but didn't get around to doing a whole lot of work and yeah, well basically a gap year is the time between college and university if you defer the placement or just don't go basically.
Right, right. Okay, that's cool.
I mean, I didn't go straight to college after high school, but there was no World of Warcraft back in those days.
We played video games on an Etch-A-Sketch.
It was very sad. And is this when you developed your exciting sleeping habits?
What is it, 3.30 in the morning?
Yeah, it's like half three in the morning.
Nice. I've kind of always had weird sleeping habits.
I mean... Pretty much, yeah, pretty much always I've had weird sleeping habits.
I say always, I mean as long as I can remember.
Like certainly my teenage years I've had a weird sleeping habit.
And as I'm in the holidays, the summer holidays at the moment between university, I'm going into my second year and I stayed on at uni.
In my halls of residence for about a month longer than everyone else did and my uni finished a month after everyone else's.
So I basically came home two months after everyone else had been back and there was pretty much no jobs whatsoever available.
So it's like, yeah, empty time.
That's no good. That is no good.
Um, and so when did you first start listening?
Ah, um, I guess it'd be like a year ago about Around a year ago. Right.
So you listened to the first one, right, where I say, and now I'm up to 180 podcasts.
And you thought, holy crap, that's a lot of podcasts, right?
And then you looked at the feed and you went, oh my God.
Did I ever shut up?
That makes sense. There was a few moments of like, well, I've almost listened to all the podcasts.
Wait, there's more feeds? We've only just begun.
Yes. Right, right.
And what...
I mean, I appreciate the feedback.
What was the impression?
What did you like with the stuff you didn't like?
Just before we get into your other real question, I'm just curious about that.
I mean, the first...
The main things which grabbed my attention was you seemed really kind of intelligent but modest kind of thing.
Which... That really appealed to me.
And just the way... The way you kind of spoke about things and backed things up and corrected yourself when you were wrong and that kind of stuff.
And then just the way you spoke about your life kind of thing.
I was like, damn, I want that.
I want that life. Right, right.
I want to be like I was still in a car.
Right. Yeah, pretty much.
So, yeah, that was the kind of thing which kind of pulled me in to begin with.
Right, right. And I mean, I found the content just fascinating and it made sense.
Well, I appreciate that.
And... And the reason that, I mean, it's a great question that you ask, and this is not obviously about donations for you or for anyone else, but it was a great question that you asked, which is, you know, what might be people's resistances to donating?
And you asked me if I'd done a show on that before, and I'm sure I've touched on it, yelling at people about t-shirts once, but I don't think that I've done a real show on it.
This may not be a real show or anything, but I just wanted to...
To get your thoughts on about it, because you've listened for about a year, and this is not to nag you or anything, I really am genuinely curious, because it is a fascinating thing to me.
You've listened for about a year, you've downloaded, I don't know, how many podcasts would you say?
Maybe 800 or so?
Right, okay, so 800, and so that's a lot of, the time investment is obviously huge.
I know, in terms of hours, In terms of hours listened to, it's a pretty huge time investment.
What's your typical listening scenario?
I don't think we've had anyone listen while they're shagging, but we do have people listen while they play video games or go to the gym or whatever.
Some people listen at work if they have jobs that don't require too much concentration.
What's your typical listening?
It's kind of changed, really.
It began with Listening while playing games and then listening while painting and listening while cycling.
Oh, cool. Okay, cool.
So, yeah, a bit of those three.
Righto. And, sorry, go ahead.
I was going to say, and I watch True News every now and then during breakfast.
That's nice. Yeah.
You know, that sounds very close to vaguely professional.
You know, like I'll flip on the news.
It's like, wait, I just see some guy yelling in a room, right?
Okay. All right.
Interesting. Okay.
So, I mean, and people don't sort of sit and stare at the computer and listen.
It's usually while something else is going on.
But obviously, it's a big investment and it's a big displacement of other things you could be listening to or doing or whatever, right?
So, and of course, I didn't No, actually, sorry, later I did add in the donation request, but I didn't take requests for the first, I don't know, year or so of the show or the year I was doing this kind of stuff.
Maybe a year and a half, I think.
Anyway, it was a while before I started taking donations because I just did it sort of for funsies and then it turned into this weird kind of job or whatever, right?
And so, when you would hear the donation requests, right?
I mean, obviously when you first start listening, you know, like, oh, I actually have had people say, I listened to a podcast of yours, I didn't like it, here's 50 cents, right?
I mean, you get, I just think, you know, it's like, that's actually more annoying than beneficial.
People, like, PayPal takes like 30 cents of that and then I have to manage and report it for my income or whatever, right?
So... That to me has just been kind of annoying.
And it's not common, but it does sort of happen.
Someone says, I listened to four podcasts.
I didn't like it. Here's two bucks.
It's like when I was a waiter and people would leave me like a 25 pence tip.
It's like, I think I get the message.
I'd rather you leave no tip and then I think you just forgot rather than leave a crappy tip and blah, blah, blah.
So you'd hear these donation requests, and what would your thoughts be?
And obviously early on it was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, let's just keep listening and see if we like it.
But as time goes on, what were your thoughts about those donation requests?
And I appreciate you talking about this.
I hope you don't feel I'm badgering you.
I'm just really curious.
Yeah, it's strange.
I mean, to begin with, it was kind of like, yeah, that's an interesting idea, kind of having podcasts and having donations.
And then... It's weird.
I mean, a lot of the time it didn't feel like you were talking to me, if that makes sense.
Go on. Like...
Because, you know, I wasn't.
I'm just kidding. I don't mean to shock you, but this is the first time we've...
No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like...
In a weird sense, I found the podcasts to be really kind of not personal, but highly personal.
That's very interesting. That's very interesting.
Can you tell me a bit more about that? No.
Like, obviously, I got that you were kind of like driving to work in a car and talking kind of thing.
So in that sense, you're not exactly directly talking to a random guy that lives in England.
But it did kind of have like a personal conversational tone to it.
Right, right. No, and I certainly tried not to be declamatory or, you know, full of oratorial, oratorical nonsense, but I've ever tried to be sort of straight and frank about what it is that I'm talking about.
So, I mean, it kind of sounds really odd, but I mean, it was kind of like listening to a friend kind of thing.
Right. I appreciate that.
And go on. Oh, so like if a friend was doing a show and they were asking for donations, you wouldn't think that that friend was talking to you, but to everyone else who wasn't your friend?
Is that what you mean? Yeah, kind of like that.
Right. It just sounds really bizarre, or at least it does to me.
No, it really doesn't.
And I really, really do appreciate you talking about this.
It really doesn't sound bizarre at all to me.
I just think it's completely fascinating.
So, I mean, I have a million questions, but I'd like you to go on if that's all right.
Yeah, I mean, when I'd listen to podcasts and the donation stuff would come up, it wasn't like disassociation, but it just lost the kind of personal touch, if that makes sense. So was it sort of like...
I'm trying to think of an analogy, and these may or may not work, so forgive me if I just completely shoot and miss, but is it sort of like a friend comes to drop you off at the airport and then they want 20 bucks?
Sort of. Okay, well, tell me what fits or what doesn't fit about that, because it is really of great interest to me.
I guess... I'm just trying to make sense of it slightly in my head.
That's interesting. That's not the format of the show, as you well know.
No, I'm just kidding. I guess just to kind of change the metaphor slightly, it's kind of if you're in a taxi with...
This might actually be a semi-coherent metaphor for once.
Well, we'll have to cut it out.
Yeah. Like if you're in a taxi and say there's three people in the taxi and all three of you don't know each other and you're in the front seat talking to the driver kind of thing when you get to your destination if you're all going to the same destination and you know the taxi guy says time to pay you you feel like a like a friend and passenger to the taxi driver rather than a customer.
Ah right right that's very interesting very interesting.
So it's kind of like Yeah, like, you guys should pay kind of thing, and then, bye.
If the last bit made sense, or maybe I just killed it in the last few seconds.
No, no, I mean, I think that makes real sense to me.
And the way that I would sort of process it, and tell me if this makes any sense to you, the way that I would process it is, like, the friendliness of the show, or the conversational nature of the show, And, of course, the topics of the show.
I mean, some of which are very abstract and philosophical, and some of which, obviously, are pretty personal and historical and in the gut.
And so the general friendliness of the show is compelling to listen to, but at the same time, because there is that friendliness, it doesn't feel like a service, or a business, or whatever.
Yeah, yeah. So what you're saying is, I'm a really, really, really good prostitute.
Because everybody then is like, well, why would I pay you?
You're my girlfriend. That's not what you're saying?
I'm like a high-class whore.
That's good to know. Because that really is the business plan, day one, become the highest class whore that I conceivably could and make everyone think that I'm the girlfriend.
So I was like, why would I give you money?
So the friendliness keeps people listening, but at the same time, then it feels like tipping a friend in a way.
There's the conflict between the personal relationship, in a sense, that comes out of the conversational tone and the personal topics such as they are.
And then the monetary thing is a conflict between that personal tone and quasi-relationship.
And again, I'm just trying to understand.
I don't want to put words in your mouth and understand what you mean, because it's really interesting to me.
Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much how it feels.
I still find it just really strange.
I mean, as I'm talking to you now, your voice is, like, familiar.
Yeah, yeah, of course. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
So it's like, even though, in a sense, it's like the first time I've met you kind of thing, so to speak.
You still have one of the most familiar voices of the people that I'm in regular contact with.
Chillingly haunting and grating is another way of putting it, but I certainly appreciate the way...
I think your phrasing is better.
That is interesting. And of course, I mean, because I've talked about, you know, thoughts and feelings and history and so on, I mean, you know a lot more about me than you probably would about most people in your life, which is also, you know, kind of...
Because there is that kind of at least one-way intimacy in terms of knowing...
You know, things about my past or things about my thoughts that are personal and, you know, laugh, cry, and blah, blah, blah.
That also, I think, would be an impediment, and I think not a bad one, but a sort of impediment to the sort of financial reality of, you know, running a fairly expensive show on the internet kind of thing.
Yeah. That's interesting.
So it's like the very thing that makes a show successful in terms of its consumption by the listeners makes it harder to To donate for people, right?
Yeah. I think another thing I'm finding is the kind of, like, the topic and the content of the show is obviously not restricted to the show itself.
So that was worded badly.
Like, I have a few friends that I talk to.
Go on. You have the space aliens on.
That's really freaky. Sorry, come on.
I have a few friends that I talk to about kind of, like, similar topics and, like, especially some of the, like, really kind of, like, Emotional, like, deep topics kind of thing.
So, it feels kind of similar.
Right, that's very interesting.
So, because, I mean, it's not so much the...
See, sometimes I'm eloquent, and then there's now.
But, because there's the content of what I'm saying, which is obviously, I think, somewhat interesting and important.
But there's also the form of what I'm saying, which is that kind of openness and honesty and, in a sense, stupid, fearless vulnerability or whatever.
And that kind of communicates itself like a person can communicate in that way and still attract a woman, right?
And communicate, you know, be open and vulnerable or whatever and still, you know, be, I guess, an appealing or an attractive person or whatever.
And so that kind of behavior you're saying, it kind of, you've, I shouldn't say model, but you've sort of replicated that kind of openness with some of your friends and so that seems a little bit more like it's in the friend zone rather than the business.
Yeah. The person that introduced me to FDR, he's someone that I'm still in regular contact with, and he's someone that I talk to a lot, obviously with the same kind of FDR topics, and we're really kind of open with each other.
He's also very, very intelligent, so I kind of have the same...
how to phrase it...
The kind of learning aspect is present as well within the kind of relationship.
Oh, like there's a friendship side, but there's also a mentoring side kind of thing, like where he's maybe further down the road in certain topics than you are?
Yeah, definitely. Right, right.
Right, okay. I mean, obviously, I would not underestimate your own intelligence.
It takes a lot of intelligence to follow some of the stuff that I'm putting forward, particularly since I do seem to drop breadcrumbs rather randomly all over the farm forest.
So I wouldn't underestimate that.
So that's interesting. So then, have those thoughts about donating...
Can you describe to me, and again, I know it's not something that's the central focus of any part of your life, but if you have any sort of memory of how it has sort of changed over the past year, if it has changed over the past year to the point where when you pinged me on Skype, that was something that was at the top of your mind, how has it sort of changed over the last year?
Has it gone through any different kind of phases or anything like that?
In what way do you mean?
What's starting from before I listened?
Well, not before you listen, but when the thought of donating first occurred, right?
And to now, where it's become something that you're curious about in yourself, which I think is entirely the right thing, right approach, right?
Because it shouldn't be any sense of obligation.
It shouldn't be any sense of have to or duty or anything like that.
But it is something that is a kind of reciprocity, obviously, that is important.
And I think you're taking the entirely wise approach, if that makes any sense.
You're taking the entirely wise approach as to why you're not doing something, which is to be curious about, you know, I wonder why I'm not doing it.
So, I mean, obviously, when you first started listening, you didn't have that curiosity because it wasn't even in your mind.
But at some point, that's gone through a transition.
I was wondering if you could just describe, if it's gone through any phases, these thoughts about donations for you.
I think, as I said in the beginning, it was kind of...
Yeah, it didn't feel that you were talking to me, and then...
Kind of like a while later, I'm not quite sure when, it kind of hit me like, hey, I am a listener kind of thing.
I am a potential donator, so kind of, why don't I? And then it sort of just went hazy.
Hazy? Okay.
So the world of Warcraft opened up again and it's like, yeah.
No, hazy, that's interesting.
So tell me a little bit more. So when you had the thought...
Sorry, tell me if you don't mind.
I mean, so you had the thought, you know, I'm a potential donator, or, you know, it might be reasonable to sort of return like for like.
And what was the haziness there, if you can...
I mean, it's always hard to ask what's in the fog, but sort of what was the haziness for you?
The fog was kind of like Just trying to articulate it from the colorful mental picture I just drew No No, just give me the mental picture if you like.
Sometimes people wish there were, but there isn't.
Yeah, I guess it's kind of when the thought of me being a potential donator kind of crossed my mind.
It's like, huh, that's interesting.
Hey, look, a son of love. Ooh, something shiny.
It's like, oh, I must have been thinking about something before I zoned out.
Yes. And then...
Sorry to just butt in.
So was it that you had the thought and then there was very quickly it was substituted with another thought or did it just kind of dwindle and then your thought went elsewhere?
Yeah I mean it kind of just not got pushed out the way but well yeah pretty much just got pushed out the way by something else.
Okay so you had the thought and then it was like kaboom there was another thought that kind of took its place right?
Yeah. That's very interesting.
Okay. And then what happened?
it's sort of in the in the phase of this of this progress um it pretty much continued with me kind of um realizing that like i could donate and then not and feeling a bit weird about it but not going into it I remember once I asked my friend who introduced me to FDR kind of thing like, hey, I've got some The pusher.
Resistance to donating kind of thing.
Like, what about you?
And I think he's a philosopher king.
So I was like, ah, okay.
And what did he say, just out of curiosity?
To be honest, I can't really recall what he said.
Right, right. But, I mean, it wasn't like a pushy kind of like, hey, I'm a philosopher king, you should donate kind of thing.
It was just like, yeah, I've donated.
So I was like, oh. Right, or you say, I appreciate the fact that you're this philosopher king status donator.
If you could wear more than a crown when we actually leave the flat, that would be great.
It's a little alarming. Unless, you know, he's got the body for it, which, you know, not everybody does.
I think it's an awesome title, though, Philosopher King.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a good title.
It obviously came straight out of Plato.
Plato, yeah. Okay, so you don't remember that conversation.
And then what was going on for you in this realm?
I think I kind of listen to a lot less podcasts over time.
Just through lifestyle changes, really, and not being able to listen to them.
Like you went back to university kind of thing?
Yeah, so time kind of changed.
Well, I think that was a very wise decision.
It really sucked.
I went to university, kept listening to podcasts, bombed out.
So, yes, entirely wise, but go on.
Yeah, so I'd listen to a few things occasionally and a few true news kind of things.
I still haven't gone through the series in order which is something that I want to do but mainly since I've come come back home I've listened to podcasts again and then the like the old feeling kind of arose like hey donations and I think the the layout of the true news series is a lot different to the podcasts it's kind of more coherent structured organized I don't want to say professional, but... No, it is. It's a little bit.
Yeah, it definitely is a little bit more that way.
I think it kind of hit me more that it is kind of like your...
Well, it is now like your business, your kind of life, so to speak.
So there was like a disconnect from like the personal feelings that I had before.
Which then...
Yeah, it just made the donation issue stand out.
I'm sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, and then I've just been thinking especially over the past few weeks that I want to try and like apply more things to my life kind of thing like have philosophy have more of an impact so I kind of thought rather one of my things that I've been doing this year is I have a real tendency to overthink stuff and by overthink stuff I mean kind of stand perfectly still like stroking my beard and not do anything and So I've been trying to just dive in.
So that was one of the things was adding you, just kind of dive in with it.
Right, okay. So sort of like see what values you can put into practice, you know, in your own kind of thing.
Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense.
And then? Yeah, and then it kind of hit me once I added you.
It's like, oh yeah, kind of.
The show has been of immense value to me.
Trying to articulate its value seems extremely hard.
I wouldn't even know how to articulate it.
But then the donation side hit me.
If it's of such high value, why haven't I donated?
I don't know if it's right to call it a contradiction, but that kind of conflict just arose in my mind with more focus than before.
Like as an actual issue rather than like a huh, and dismiss it.
Right, right, right. Okay.
And I know you've just said that you couldn't or wouldn't put it into words, but if you could try, not anything to do with sort of my ego, but just it's, I'm always curious about, because I mean, ideas are, you know, far reaching, deep, powerful, and alarming at times, I'm sure.
So what, in terms of the value, right?
Because I think If the value is sort of explicated to the self, then the action, I think, of supporting or donating or whatever.
And of course, you know, I know Brokast students have been there myself.
It doesn't have to be money. It could be time or, you know, just even just, you know, I suggested it to 10 people.
It's an interesting thing or whatever.
It doesn't have to be anything to do with money.
Or, you know, writing a review somewhere.
You know, it could be anything that is supportive of this conversation.
conversation.
But tell me if you don't mind taking a swing at it, sort of the value or the use that the show has brought to your life over the past year.
I don't suppose you've read a book called Flowers for Algernon.
I have. Actually, I read it in school.
It's one of the books that I'm reading at the moment and that's this is probably something to do with it.
I've I've been feeling really Strongly about the book when I read it.
How so? I find myself empathizing a lot with Charlie Gordon.
I think his name is the main character I kind of in terms of like FDR's value to my to my life.
I kind of feel that Mmm, like FDR was kind of like the operation that he went through and And sorry, have you finished the book?
You're still reading it? Yeah, I'm still reading it.
Okay, I won't give anything away because you're still reading it.
But for those who don't know, this is a book that was written, I think, in the 70s or maybe the late 60s.
And it's about a retarded man who undergoes an operation that gives him a brilliant mind.
I mean, he doesn't even go to average intelligence.
It's been like 30 years since I read the book or whatever, right?
Yeah. He becomes a genius, if I remember rightly.
And I won't give anything further away about the book.
So you feel that philosophy is like an operation that has brought your mind to a vivid kind of life.
Is that fair to say? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Yeah, I mean, I feel kind of like, yeah, philosophy has just elevated my kind of thoughts and perceptions of my life and the people around me.
And... It sounds weird to say it's kind of like put me in a new state of awareness, but that's pretty much how I feel.
And why does it sound weird to say?
I don't know. It just has the...
I mean, I know that British people are not supposed to be enthusiastic, right?
We all know what happened the last time England got enthusiastic was you all ended up owning like a third of the world, right, with the empire?
So enthusiasm is a risky thing.
You know, it's like a German losing his temper.
Enthusiasm is dangerous for the world from the British people.
I think it's interesting because you said that a number of times where you said, you know, there's been a great impact.
And of course, I mean, the impact isn't me or even fundamentally the show.
It's right. It's philosophy itself and not even in the way that I talk about it, but just working from first principles as a methodology, right?
And you said, well, it sounds weird to say and so on.
And I think that it is in that sounds weird to say phrase that you've used a bunch of times that...
The resistance to donation is, and again, this has nothing to do with 10 bucks a month or 20 bucks a month.
I mean, I could care less about that in terms of this conversation.
But I think that it's important that that distance that you take, at least when you communicate to me, the distance that you take from the impact that philosophy's had in your life, if that makes any sense?
Yeah. So what is...
I'm no psychologist or therapist, but to me, feelings and thoughts are really, really important when it comes to understanding how we can live with integrity.
And please, of course, I'm not accusing you or implying that you're not living with integrity.
But if you were to say, you know, this philosophy has had this huge impact and I've been listening to these podcasts and it's revolutionized my thinking and so on.
If you were to state that with some kind of enthusiasm, or the enthusiasm which I think the words themselves would necessitate, what feeling would arise for you in that?
You tell me, because I have some thoughts, but they're your feelings.
I mean, when I think about saying that, I think of other people's reactions to it.
That's my kind of first thought.
And what are those reactions?
The kind of sarcastic, disbelieving hostility.
Right. Okay.
So you say, I'm really into this philosophy podcast on the web.
And it's, you know, it's really revolutionized my thinking.
I mean, is it like you're saying, come with me to the Amway meeting, you're going to make a fortune, or, you know, Scientology is the way to go, or I'm about to shave my head and live in a bedsheet down by the airport begging for change?
I mean, is it that you feel that that level of enthusiasm is going to be greeted with some, like, there's something seriously wrong with your brain for having that enthusiasm or that kind of stuff?
I kind of feel like, in a sense, I'd implicitly be saying...
Like, if I'm basically saying that, you know, before philosophy I was blind and now I can see, then I'm kind of implicitly saying you're blind because you haven't had philosophy.
That's the kind of, you know, thought slash feeling?
I'm not sure. Right. No, no.
I mean, there is...
It's not really an implicit criticism.
Of the other person, right?
But there is that element that can be taken out of it, right?
Yeah. That's interesting.
I mean, this is one of the challenges of any philosophical movement, which is, you know, Christians don't seem to have much problem with eyes glowing, I found Jesus, don't be damned, right?
You know, like, they...
Christians don't seem to have a lot of problems with that, you know, shining-eyed, grip-the-crucifix enthusiasm for their gods and their devils, right?
Yes. But philosophy is tougher.
Philosophers or people who are into philosophy is much, much tougher to get that kind of enthusiasm.
And I think, to some degree, we do associate...
That kind of enthusiasm for things to be the mark of an immature or credulous or easily led astray kind of intellect.
Yeah. You know, because we want to be skeptical, we want to be distant, we want to be critical.
I think those things are all very good.
I don't think at the expense of enthusiasm in the long run, but I think that...
I mean, is that your association?
Maybe that's just mine, where you just think those people who just get so gung-ho over...
Yeah, pretty much.
It's the same here. I mean, when I hear them, it's kind of just, I guess, annoying on a base level.
Right. Have you found Jesus yet?
You know, I don't know. Was he missing?
Exactly. Did you check under the bed?
Did you check, you know, did you check the last place you left him?
Because that's, you know, it's your pockets of teens you wore last night, right?
Yeah. Is that an experience that you've had with regards to enthusiasms that you've had as an adult, whether it's for philosophy or for other things?
Have you had that experience where you actually have expressed the enthusiasm and you've received those kinds of eye-rolling skepticisms?
or is that something that you either haven't experienced or experienced when you were younger still?
I think there has been a degree of that.
A kind of...
I guess just to try and separate it in some kind of way.
The things which are kind of binding on them, I find I get the hostility, but the things which aren't, I don't find hostility there.
The things that are binding on others, you mean?
Yeah, so just to use a possibly bad example, I play Warhammer.
And, well, started playing it again.
And I've been painting some stuff.
So, I mean, I wouldn't feel the same kind of odd feelings if I said, you know, like, I've learned some really amazing painting techniques which have, like, fundamentally altered the way I paint kind of thing.
And now I think my painting skills are pretty good.
Right, because other people don't feel that they have to change their lives because of your newfound painting mojo, right?
Okay. Yeah. Whereas if I was to say something similar, like, you know, about philosophy and actually being able to think and express my feelings, then yeah, I think the hostility would be there.
Well, the hostility has been there.
Right, right, because when you sort of talk about truth and integrity and virtue and courage, then there is, in a sense, an implicit obligation and criticism, both of your own self.
In the past, and of course to some degree in the present, as we all, we never lived up to our ideals as much as we, as those ideals could be conceivably lived, right?
I mean, nobody's Howard Rock or John Galt, if that means anything to you.
But, so there is, but there is much more of an implicit criticism when you say, I have discovered, you know, a great way to live philosophical principles, I have a You know, a reasonable proof of ethics and, you know, this kind of non-aggression principle and all those kinds of goodies.
Yeah, there is that kind of thing that you kind of blarp out there in the room like a hairball, which is that, you know, if you don't know philosophy, you can't really be that good, right?
In the same way, if you don't know nutrition, you can't really eat that well because you'll just eat what tastes good and whatever, right?
Yeah. Right, okay.
Interesting. It is a very touchy, touchy, touchy thing.
It is a very touchy thing.
Because philosophy has something that religion doesn't, which makes it that much harder to spread, which is why religion tends to win.
Because if someone comes up to you and clutching their Bible and their copy of The Watchman and says, you know, God loves you, have you found Jesus, don't be damned, blah, blah, blah, right?
We can just dismiss the whole thing, right?
Because we can just say, well...
That's just all nuts, right?
Yeah. But philosophy doesn't have that out for the skeptic, right?
Because philosophy is about skepticism.
Philosophy is that bit which says we can throw out the religion, right?
So if someone comes up and says, I have proof of virtue, I have a rational methodology for living well and living virtuously...
It's much more challenging for people than come worship Cthulhu the spider god or something, right?
Because then you can just say, well, there's no spider gods.
And so that's all nonsense.
But you can't say that with philosophy.
What you have to do, because people who are skeptical and can dismiss religion, like to say, I'm bound by reason and evidence, right?
And so they kind of don't want to know about philosophy, because if philosophy does turn out to be...
Then they're kind of fucked, right?
Because they can't just throw it all out without saying, I basically want to go and worship some spider god because I'm getting rid of recent evidence, right?
Yeah. Right.
Yeah, that's why it's hard to grow.
It's hard to grow philosophy, right?
And, of course, I think about 90% of people in religions...
Give to religion, and about 1% of FDR listeners give to philosophy, you know, and maybe they give to other philosophical shows, I don't know, but it's, you know, the ratio is tougher, and that's okay.
I mean, that's actually good news for me, right, because otherwise it would make no sense why philosophy has had its ass thoroughly kicked for about 10,000 years, right?
So at least we have the technology to change that.
So anyway, sorry, just going off on a sort of minor tangent, but I certainly do appreciate the challenge that You face that I face.
I mean, you should see my inbox, right?
So it is a real challenge to spread truth and virtue because there is this volatility that is so difficult to...
It's impossible to overcome.
People are either excited by the possibility of living a wise and rational and philosophical life, or they're hugely resentful because they know they can't toss it out as superstitious, but they also don't want to be bound by its conclusions.
I really feel for you.
It is a beaten-up missionary position, so to speak, and not in the way that we like.
So anyway, I just wanted to sort of point that out, that you're not alone, and I think your experience is entirely common, and it's actually kind of really good news, in my opinion.
Anyway, I mean, if philosophy was easy to spread and had never succeeded, we'd all give up, right?
Because then it would make no sense, right?
Okay, so sorry, to get back to the core thing that you were talking about, so when you would think of donating, you'd say, well, I don't necessarily want to go and talk to people enthusiastically about philosophy and this philosophical resource.
Was it then that, when you would then think of donating, which obviously...
Let's me do the heavy lifting of proselytizing and, you know, talking to people about philosophy who haven't necessarily heard of it in the way that we talk about it here before.
There was still a resistance, right?
So it's like, well, I don't want to go out into the crowd because I'm going to get stoned, and I don't want to give a couple of ducats to Steph because why, right?
So where was that particular block, do you think?
I think part of it's to do with the...
The actual kind of values and thoughts themselves.
I think if...
It's like mid-sentence and then stop.
I think if I was to donate, then it would make the whole process more real.
It would make the changes, thoughts and feelings and principles more real and binding on my own life.
Right, because that is a tangible and objective action, right?
Yeah. Right.
And obviously it's not a big one, but that first step is a doozy, right?
Yeah. I guess in a way it's kind of like committing to it.
So at the moment it's kind of like, yeah, this is good, this is great, this is helpful.
Like I'm not by any standards like a kind of...
You know, a perfect being who lives by the book, so to speak, even though that's a really bad religious metaphor.
Right, and nobody is, right?
We only try to excel in the methodology as best we can, but there's certainly no such thing as perfect action, right?
Yeah. The same way there's no such thing as a perfect diet, right?
I mean, it's all relative to some circumstances and needs and so on, but there are still principles that you have to work with as a dietitian.
Yeah. So, because it is going from input to output, from theory to practice, right?
Yeah. Right.
I think a really bad metaphor just popped into my head.
It's kind of like walking into a bookshop.
And, like, if you frequently go into a bookshop and kind of read through a dieting book, then you can be like, yeah, that's great.
And then, if you actually buy the diet book, then...
It changes your approach to the whole process.
Right. So then it sort of goes into a project plan in a way, right?
I mean, you're still not throwing out all your junk food and going to the health food store or whatever, right?
But you're taking a pretty significant step because you're now investing something in the diet idea, right?
Yeah. And in a way, it's even more different than that because...
Well, forget it. No, the metaphor is fine.
I was going to say, you don't actually have to walk anywhere to listen to a podcast, but it doesn't really matter.
I mean, I think that was just nitpicking.
I think you're entirely right.
There is a Rubicon, right, so to speak, that you have to cross when you go from consumer to participant, right, in whatever form.
And for some people, that's coming to the board, or for some people, it's donating.
For some people, it's simply doing the most terrifying thing and sort of having honest conversations with With those people in their lives about what is actually really important to them, if they're not in the habit of having those conversations already.
And some people are, but most people tend not to be, right?
So, okay, so is it like you feel like, okay, well, this is a step, and I kind of can't go back, right?
Because if I go back, that's also a step, right?
So let's say I sign up for, I don't know, 10 bucks a month or whatever, right?
And then after one month, I cancel it, right?
Well... I'm only out $10, right?
Which for 800 podcasts is, you know, commercial free.
It's pretty good, right? Yeah.
But those are then two decisions, right?
One is to subscribe.
And then the second is to unsubscribe, right?
And those both have pretty important ramifications.
Obviously not in terms of anything to do with FDR, but in terms of to do with you and the tangible practicality Of the values, right?
I guess that's the thing.
If I did kind of sign up to FDR, then just for me personally, the only way that I'd be able to kind of unsign up to FDR. Unsign up?
I don't even know how to spell. Cancel subscription, there you go.
Would be to kind of disprove the ideas.
And as I think the ideas are kind of, well, logically sound, then There would be no reason to unsubscribe.
Like the only reason to unsubscribe would be kind of personal rather than, which I would see as a personal failing rather than like objective reasoning.
Right, right.
So it really is, in a sense to donate is to say that at least at the moment I accept the methodology and A reasonable number of the conclusions, right?
I certainly would never imagine that all of my conclusions are valid, heaven forbid, right?
But the methodology of reason and evidence obviously can't really be controversial among any intelligent people, right?
Yeah. Right.
Right, so it'd be like, okay, so there's reason and there's evidence, which I accept, and the guy's done a pretty good job of hacking at some pretty thorny problems with reason and evidence.
I'm sure he hasn't got everything perfect, but...
It's a pretty inspiring example of diving headfirst into the den of lions, right?
Armed with nothing but a rapier-like wit.
So there is that edifying spectacle of just watching some guy crash into his opponents over and over, sometimes for better and sometimes for worse.
So you're saying that that would be to say that there is something of real and tangible value and to start to take action Can I ask you another question?
I really, really appreciate your time.
I don't want to keep you up all night because I know we're in different time zones.
Yeah, go for it. As you know, as you've heard me bleat on and on, I think we're all philosophers and we're all geniuses, and we all know the consequences of taking the path, right? The path of You know, committing to real honesty with people around us, to, you know, the real-time relationship, if that means anything to you.
You know, the real-time relationship is just, you know, it's a $20 word for honesty, right?
It's just something that...
Yeah, yeah. And so, if you were to take a guess that if tomorrow you were to, you know, bound out of bed...
And say, right, today, and I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, right, if you were to, bound out of bed tomorrow and say, okay, this is the day where I apply the core virtue that I have the most control over, which is honesty, right?
I can't stop the war in Iraq, I can't free unjustly imprisoned people around the world, but I do have control over the value of honesty, right?
So to say to people, And I've wanted to talk to you about my enthusiasm for philosophy and, you know, give you a resource that I found to be really, really amazing to help me in bringing this part of my brain to life, which is a very important part of my brain.
But I've been scared to for the last year and I've been doing this.
And, you know, if you were to have that kind of honesty and were to commit to it in your life forever, right?
Again, I'm not saying this is the plan.
I'm just saying if you were to do that, what would be left standing a month or two later?
A lot less. Right.
I guess that's part of the thing.
I mean, taking...
I guess there's only so many small steps you can take before much bigger things need to change.
That's a very good way of putting it.
I guess I'm kind of at the cusp of that area now.
I mean, there's some big changes that I've made to my life, but there's a few, well, a lot, that I kind of haven't touched upon.
Right. And again, you know you're not alone in that, right?
I mean, it's all of us, right?
It's all of us. You know, maybe three steps ahead sometimes and sometimes not, right?
Yeah. Right.
Okay. And what I find has arisen with some people, and, you know, maybe this is the case for you and maybe it's not.
Just tell me if it's not. Is that at that moment, and I don't mean at the moment of Of committing to sort of real honesty or whatever.
But at the moment where that arises as a possibility, what a lot of people seem to feel, and I really, really understand this.
I shouldn't laugh because it is not funny, but I really do understand it.
What a lot of people feel is resentment.
Towards what the...
Towards the show, towards philosophy, towards having ever stumbled across this accursed site, to, you know, whatever, to Steve Jobs for inventing the iPod, I don't know, right?
To the guys who came up with the internet, to the guys who figured out MP3s, whatever, right?
They just feel resentment, because it's like, damn it, if I'd never come across this, I would never be faced with this choice.
Right? As you say, it's, you know, to dabble, to listen, to absorb, to think, this all are essential things, right?
Yeah. But then to actually do provokes, and again, I'm not saying this is the case for you, I'm just, this is what I've heard before, provokes resentment, and it certainly did in me, because, I mean, I studied objectivism for many, many years, and when I finally got that, I just was not living the values in any fundamental way.
I shouldn't say that, that's too harsh.
I was living them in certain spheres, in My relations with my employees and in my relations with some of my friends.
I was living with a fair degree of integrity, but it's really, really core areas, romantic and other areas.
I just wasn't, and familial.
And I felt real resentment in that moment of You know, I either have to give up the values or I gotta do them.
Why? Because I'm in my 30s.
What am I going to do? Wait until I'm three days away from my death to suddenly live with integrity?
Well, what the hell's the point of that, right?
It's just a life of disconnectedness then, right?
So I either have to give up the virtues or give up the values.
And I couldn't do that unless, as you say, I could find a flaw in them.
Because otherwise I'd be giving up rationality, which would be very humiliating to me.
Consciously humiliating. Yeah.
So I either had to find a flaw or I had to...
And at that moment, I felt really resentful.
What do you mean I've got to actually live this shit?
I don't want to be a pirate.
I don't want to be that person.
But unfortunately, the virus is in.
The virus of philosophy is in and you can't dislodge it.
I mean, I have had some similar experiences myself.
I mean, one of the I kind of had the feeling of resentment but also a great feeling of joy and happiness because one of the relationships in my life was my relationship with my father which I just wasn't happy with and through FDR I kind of acted on it like basically acted on my unhappiness and how I felt so it kind of kind of catapulted me into action so I was like hey yeah awesome kind of thing so I felt empowered and then Kind of afterwards,
it's like, cool. Looking at other stuff, it's like, ah, crap.
I've taken positive action in one area, and then you look at everything else.
And that's when, for me, that was when I think the sort of resentment kicked in.
Right. Right.
Right. Right.
It's like, you know, you think you're at a party full of really sexy people, and then someone flips the light on, and it's like, bleh.
I'm really mad, not at the ugliness around me, but at the person who flipped the light on, which I understand, right?
I mean, I do, because certainly not me flipping on the light.
That's just, you know, reason and evidence, right?
And again, it's not to say that everyone's ugly, right?
But I certainly do understand that.
And I think that that is also tied into, you know, the question of donating.
Because it really is to me, and this is not for me to bitch about donations or whatever, right?
But But it really is amazing to me, sort of fundamentally when you think about it, that people complain hugely, and libertarians and objectivists and minarchists and anarchists and philosophically minded people complain hugely about the irrationality of the world,
right? And they wish the world were saner, they wish the world were freer, they wish the world wasn't full of so much superstition and bigotry and patriotism and ignorance and tribalism and, you know, They just complain, and they spend a huge amount of time complaining about it, and I know, because I do too, right?
So, I mean, you know, I'm not saying I'm above that fray, but they really do, right?
And then, you know, for better or for worse, out of the wilderness of the colony, Canada has arisen a guy with a weird ability to interest people in philosophy.
And with some pretty original and compelling arguments about a variety of pretty thorny philosophical problems that have plagued and paralyzed, in my mind, the discipline for way too long.
And, I mean, of course, it's not because I'm such a smart guy, but because the technology is available for the first time that can make this kind of stuff available to people in a way that's never been before.
And... And so someone has come up who can get 100,000 people really interested in philosophy.
And that's an amazing thing.
And again, this is not to put the spotlight on me, because it really is the listeners, it's the donators, it's the people who post on the board, it's everyone, right, who's been involved in this, that's made this show, I think, so good.
But... All of these people, like, oh, the man, there's the war, the torture, the religious nuts, and the, you know, oh, there's so much craziness in the world.
It's like, well, here's someone who's willing to throw up his whole career and, you know, talk passionately about truth and reason and evidence in a way that's really compelling to people.
And it's the biggest philosophy show on the web, and it's really making some amazing headway in the world.
And we know that because people get really pissed off at it.
And the right people get pissed off at it, which is to say the wrong people.
And you could do a lot to help this for 20 bucks a month or 10 bucks a month or, you know, 100 bucks or whatever, right?
And people are like, well, I don't, you know, let's not get crazy.
It's true that I really don't like the level of irrationality in the world.
And it's true that there is this guy who can get people interested in philosophy with the help of his listeners and the conversation participants and so on.
That is all true.
But, you know, We're talking 10 bucks a month.
20 bucks a month, that's like a coffee every two days, right?
And that to me is crazy.
I still am looking for the day when the donations make up as much as I've given up in salary, right?
Even the gap. You know what I mean?
Yeah. And that's the reason that I'm fascinated.
And the reason that I'm fascinated by people's resistance to donations is not because they should donate to me.
I mean, if there's a better philosophical resource out there that is getting more people interested in philosophy and has better arguments for ethics and for a non-violent society and, you know, whatever it is.
If there's someone out there who's doing a way better job, hell, tell me I'll go work for them and I'll type the letters if that's what it takes, right?
I'll go work for them and let's all donate to that person.
But I don't know that there is someone else out there that people are looking to donate to or help out to spread reason in the world, right?
So people decry so much the lack of reason in the world, but then When it comes to $10 a month or whatever, like, well, you know, what is a slightly more reasonable world worth to me?
Well, it's less than $10 a month.
But compare that to, obviously, the moral problems of irrationality and the legal and force problems of immorality.
And also compare that to the amount of time that libertarians and objectivists and other forms of freedom lovers, the amount of time they spend complaining about.
About the lack of reason in the world.
It is an equation that just does not balance even remotely in my mind, right?
And I know that it's a difficult thing for me to talk about because it sounds like I'm just saying, here's a big convoluted argument for you to give me more money.
And I don't mean that at all.
It is a genuine disconnect that I'm still trying to figure out.
And that's why I really do appreciate your conversation in this area.
I mean, I find the same thing.
I mean, one of the things that really...
What kind of grates on me is prisons.
I mean, of everything in the world, prisons get to me the most, and I'm frequently to be heard complaining about prisons whenever the subject arises.
And it's kind of like, if there was a nonviolent alternative to prisons, I'd be all over it.
And it's like, well, there is. Right.
I mean, certainly the stuff we talk about here.
I mean, prisons are the worst things ever, right?
Obviously, we want better parenting so people don't end up in prisons.
But even if they do end up in prisons, it's the worst conceivable way to treat someone who's a prisoner because he was abused as a child is to abuse him as an adult.
Surely that's just going to make him worse.
And it's that thing I've talked about before, that whenever the government gets involved in something, it freezes in time.
And so locking people in a dungeon and throwing away the key for a couple of years is the same goddamn thing that happened in ancient Egypt like 6,000 years ago.
We're still doing the same goddamn thing now.
It's ridiculous how bad a solution it is.
So this is something for you that's very important.
And, you know, obviously, I doubt we'll live to see.
I don't know how young you are, but I certainly won't live to see a stately society, and it seems not likely that you will either.
But just because Francis Bacon didn't live to see the iPod doesn't mean that he shouldn't have written down the scientific method and tried to spread it, right?
Yeah. And I think it is.
And this is why, you know, I went to looking at personal relationships, because that was the only thing that I could think would be, fundamentally, could be a barrier towards this, right?
Because people can be incredibly generous, and it's not a function of stupidity.
Some very intelligent Christians, obviously, Jews tend to be better educated and perhaps more intelligent than the average.
And, I mean, some Jewish...
Friends were told, I think it was $2,000 a year to join the synagogue for a one-hour or two-hour lecture a week, right?
And they're like, hey, ka-ching, here you go, right?
Here's the money, right? And, I mean, can you imagine if I said, you know, you're going to have to donate $200 a month to get a new podcast, right?
People would just be like, fuck you, buddy, right?
Don't forget it, right? But people will do that for synagogues.
Mormons donate 10% of their income to their church.
I think even Christian churches in the United States get $100 billion a year in donations.
So people can do it.
Right, right. People can do it.
Groups can do it.
But philosophers, or people interested in philosophy, can't.
Very well. Some can't, obviously.
The show is still here. And it is, to me, a fascinating thing.
It is a fascinating thing.
And I'm not sure that it's wrong.
I'm not sure that people are wrong about it at all.
I really am not. I really am just, this has been a huge part of my intellectual effort over the past couple of years, is to figure out that disconnect, first in myself, as to why I would fundamentally even consider continuing in software when I could do something much more important and powerful and helpful to the world.
But, yeah, it is.
It is a real question as to if you believe that, you know, reason and evidence and philosophy is a great value, and there's someone who's crazy enough to quit his job and try and do it full-time, and, you know, for a couple of bucks a month you can really help that, but you won't.
And again, I'm not talking about you, but the person won't.
That is a fascinating thing to explore.
It is a real conundrum. So...
I mean, I think it's also partly because Christianity gets kids when they're young and philosophy doesn't until they're older.
But sorry, you were going to say? Yeah, I was going to say, it's still something that I find just really bizarre.
Well, I guess not bizarre.
I mean, in terms of, you know, Christians and Jews giving over ridiculously large sums of money and then kind of rational free thinkers not...
It both doesn't make sense and does make sense.
It's just, it's really strange.
Yeah, and I'm not saying it is ridiculously large sums at all, right?
I mean, people, you know, but it is ridiculously large compared to, right?
And of course, in politics, there is a lot of money, a Ron Paul campaign, huge amounts of money donated, like, tens of millions of dollars donated to him, right?
But that's, I think, based on the illusion that people think that he'll make them free or whatever, right?
But, yeah, it is fascinating, and I really think it has something to do with this step towards putting values into action is just really unsettling to people, because they don't want to put the values into action, and they also don't really want to fundamentally examine their resistance to putting them in action, because I think that does lead them to their relationships around them.
That's the only thing that I think is powerful enough to cause people to act in an obviously inconsistent manner, if that makes any sense.
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense.
I really do appreciate your feedback on this.
And again, I know I kept you up.
Is there anything that you wanted to add?
I want to keep you up all night, but is there anything that you wanted to add to this?
Because it's been hugely helpful to me.
I mean, we've covered a lot of ground.
I find it just really helpful and interesting to talk to you about this.
I mean, it's something that's obviously been on and off my mind for For like around a year in various ways, but I mean, yeah, it's something that I think I need to, yeah, act on.
Well, I wouldn't, you know, and again, this sounds like all kinds of stupid for the guy to say.
I would not act on it.
If I were you, I wouldn't act on it until I really understood it.
I mean, that would be my, I mean, it certainly shouldn't act on it based on a should, right?
Right. You shouldn't act on it, you know, based on, well, to live with integrity, I guess I have to, because that's just following rules, right?
And that's not the same as, I think, living wisely.
But have you ever, you know, because I'm constantly nagging people, particularly if they're interested in that kind of real honesty in relationships, have you ever talked to a therapist?
Have you ever thought of that?
Because university is a good time to do it, because you can get it for free, right?
Yeah, that's something that I was thinking on It was going to a therapist.
Yeah, I mean, you mentioned something about your dad, and we don't have to get into any details.
I'm certainly happy to do it another time if you want to talk about it.
But, you know, anyone who's talking about bringing philosophy to philosophical principles into a familial situation that is not used to them already for them, you know, I strongly, strongly, strongly, strongly urge, in fact, would like to insist but can't, you know, spending some time with a therapist would be just, you know, especially because you can get it for free.
Which is hugely, hugely important, I think.
I mean, yeah, I think therapy would be hugely beneficial, especially as it's free at uni.
I mean... Oh, yeah, don't wait till later, man.
You'll kick yourself till later.
Yeah, definitely. I had free dental care when I was at university, and I didn't take care of it.
Then after I started working, I was like, oh, I should go to a dentist.
It's like, oh, my God.
Damn, I should have gone when I was in university.
So I just recommend that.
Yeah. All right.
And I know we haven't used any names or anything that keeps in remotely identifying.
Would you have any problem if I put this out as a podcast?
Do you want to listen to it beforehand or anything like that?
Yeah, I mean, it's fine to put forward to the podcast.
I mean, I found your podcast hugely useful.
So I mean, if this can help anyone else, that'd be great.
All right. Well, I think so.
And I really do appreciate your time.
And I hope that you can get some sleep now.
And thank you for taking me up on the call and for your openness about this.
I've really, really enjoyed the conversation.
Yeah, me too. Thanks for the conversation, really.
It's been great talking to you.
A bit weird at first, but I'm more relaxed now.
Right, right. I should be falling asleep to this voice.
What's going on? Yeah, my hands kept trying to pick something up.
It's like, wait, no, I'm talking.
I'm not listening. It's really strange.
Right. Although, except for the ramble tangents, which you're fully aware of.
But thanks. And do keep me posted.
I mean, if you do end up talking to a therapist, I mean, just do let me know, because I always like to follow that up.
And I, again, strongly suggest that it's well worth doing.
And do keep me posted about, or you can post on the board, your thoughts about it because I think that there's lots of people who are struggling with this and it's got nothing to do with 10 bucks a month who are just struggling with this with this challenge of you know putting the thoughts into action and it's a horrible thing to do in many ways so I think if you share that with people I think that they would help it and probably would help you as well definitely I mean I plan on getting more involved on the board and kind of yeah posting more I'm kind of like a troll at the moment and I really just want to I think you mean lurker rather than troll,
because troll would be an entirely different type of person.
All right. Well, thanks again.
And have yourself a great, I guess, morning.
And I do appreciate the call.
Yeah, thanks. It's been great talking to you.
So I'll keep you posted and probably catch you on board or something.
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