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Aug. 12, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:36:15
1436 Anxiety: A Conversation
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Time Text
Yeah, I'm here.
I don't know if you can hear me. I can hear you just fine.
Hey, I'm just really anxious.
I didn't realize there would be this many people and I'm kind of a little freaked out right now.
Don't think of them. They are nothing.
I know, I know, I know.
Did maybe somebody else want to bring up something first and maybe I'll feel a little more comfortable?
Well, why don't we try?
First of all, you're among friends, so don't sweat.
If you don't want this released, of course, you don't have to worry about it.
But there certainly was enough interest in this that people are staying up late waiting for you to entertain them.
No, there's enough interest in this.
Right, right. Now remember, if you're not talking, and this is mostly going to be a conversation with this gentleman, if you could mute it.
Which is somewhere on your Skype screen, depending on the version that you have.
I would appreciate that. So, maybe you could start off just by reading the email that you sent.
You can take a moment.
That's no problem. Yeah, sorry.
All right. Would you mind if I just sort of explain the situation?
I'm not really fond of reading in front of people.
Whatever you like.
It's your call. Is that right?
Okay. I guess I've experienced anxiety for quite some time, and I've just sort of, in the last few years, been able to put a name on it.
I just thought it was something that everybody experiences, and I didn't realize that sort of Maybe I get a little more anxious than most people do concerning certain situations.
And so I've been kind of keeping track of it for the last, well, since I've been listening to FDR pretty much.
And I seem to have just these big swings.
I guess it's...
I'll get really anxious and almost in a depressed state and then you know somehow I'll get out of it and then I'll be really happy for a while and then I'll slowly feel the jar of anxiety filling back up and I guess what I want to do now is sort of learn to deal with that in a better way.
Maybe learn to I identify the anxiety before it sort of catches me and sort of knocks me on my butt and so I've been looking into counseling.
I actually went and talked to a counselor on Monday and I guess what I just want to do is find the best course of action for sort of dealing with this stuff and I wanted to check with You know, the community and you, obviously, to see sort of maybe which approaches I should be taking.
Sorry, I don't...
No, that's totally fine.
Oh, okay. I guess...
Yeah, I've just been finding that...
Little things can really set me off.
I won't sleep for days over an oil change or going to the dentist.
It's become a distraction.
I just like to not have it anymore or to minimize it.
I understand you probably can't just totally get rid of it, but through counseling and And maybe looking into what the causes are rather than just dealing with the symptoms.
I'd like to take that path to try and get a better handle on it.
So I guess I'm kind of starting down that road.
And I thought maybe a little direction up front might save a lot of time.
Well, I can certainly give you, as you know, I'm certainly no therapist or psychologist, but I can certainly give you some, you know, philosophical feedback on what might be going on.
So I'm certainly happy if that works for you.
I'm more than happy to give that a shot.
Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah.
Now, what is your theory as to why, if you say your anxiety may be higher than most people's, what is your theory as to why that might be the case?
Well, I guess my parents aren't really good at dealing with anxiety at times.
You know, they...
So I would kind of almost look at it as being a learned behavior or like some sort of fundamental tool for diffusing the anxiety.
I didn't learn kind of thing.
It's a very interesting thing.
I guess I can just see a lot of how my parents deal with anxiety And I guess I feel that I'm sort of heading down a similar path.
And I just like to sort of steer myself out of that.
Because I know my dad, he often gets up.
At like four in the morning and starts doing yard work and stuff.
And I know it's not because he's really eager to do yard work.
It's because he can't sleep and he's looking for a distraction.
And I feel that so much.
You know, there's so many nights where I just sort of hanging out and, you know, like sleep is the last thing on my mind when it's like, you know, it's time to go to bed.
And so that's kind of But I don't know, maybe I'm genetically predisposed.
You know, I have no idea.
But a genetic predisposition doesn't mean determined, right?
Right. Like if you have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism, then that means you shouldn't drink, right?
It doesn't mean you're going to be an alcoholic, right?
Right, right.
Yeah, I guess it would just sort of mean maybe I should pay some attention to it if I want to.
I feel like a dentist at the moment.
You know, this will only take a little thing.
Yeah, I know. I know.
I'm really nervous. No, that's totally fine.
Well, listen, first and foremost, I mean, I say this a lot to people, but I hope that doesn't diminish it when I say it to you, that you to be incredibly commended for taking this step.
Right? Everybody here who's listening now, who may listen in the future, we all know how tough it is to take that step.
We all know how tough it is to take that step where you first say, I can't go on habit.
I have to do something different with...
How I've been raised, the habits I've been given, whatever it is that's going on, to lift your head up from the hyper-gravitational swamps of history and habit and to start to shake off the heavy stuff.
I think that's really important, to take pride in that, because it's a tough step to take, even to start.
So, you know, that's...
That's a huge part of the solution, right?
Without that, there is no solution.
So the very fact that you're even thinking about it, to me, is huge.
It's massive. You should be incredibly proud.
Thanks. I appreciate hearing that.
It's very nice of you to say that.
Well, it's true.
I mean, this is how the world changes, right?
I mean, as the dead man says, start with the man in the mirror, you know?
It's a good rule of thumb, right?
Right. So...
Anxiety, anxiety, anxiety.
Tell me what your parents are anxious about.
Or should we start with what your parents aren't anxious about?
Do you want me to ask a little bit more clearly than that, just because I know that's an open-ended question?
And this is all my nonsense theories, but you can try on the hat and see if it fits even for a minute or two.
But the way that I view anxiety is a little bit something like this, and I'll give you a very short thing, and then you can tell me if it makes any sense at all.
Anxiety is a series of dominoes that leads inexorably towards disaster.
And what that means is that there's a thought or something that happens in the moment, right?
And that starts a cascade of thoughts that leads to catastrophe.
Some monstrous disaster.
And the anxiety is the echo of the disaster that's at the very end of it, rippling all the way through back to the beginning of things, right?
Yeah. And so when I say, what are your parents anxious about, most people will...
And this is not negative or disrespected with your parents.
We're just trying to figure out where this may have been inherited from.
But what I mean by that is, what is the disaster that is at the end of the dominoes that causes such anxiety?
So I have, I don't know, I'm not plagued with them, but I have these thoughts, and they've been a little bit more the case when I become a parent, that I can sort of see a sequence of things that will occur wherein Isabella gets physically hurt.
And I think that's actually kind of healthy, at least I hope it's healthy, because it certainly doesn't, it's not debilitating, it's just a kind of caution.
But I can see these dominoes, right, that kind of go down where this happened, could this happen, could this happen, and then bam!
You know, she's been hurt or something, right?
Mm-hmm. And that is something that happens quite a bit.
Oh, there's this thing that I had when I was in third year of, well, it was my first year at McGill, but it was kind of like my third year of college, of university.
And I was in three plays in the school year, and one of them was Macbeth, which was just...
And I played for two weeks, and it was just monstrous.
I mean, it takes such a lot out of you emotionally and physically, because it was a really intense play, and I had big fight scenes with swordplay and so on.
And anyway, so when the smoke all cleared from this, I was like...
Three or four weeks away from exams, and this would be, I guess, April.
And some of my courses I hadn't read anything for since, like, late the previous year.
And I just freaked, Frank.
I just completely freaked out.
I ended up pulling it all off or whatever, right?
But I just couldn't sleep.
I was so stressed. And my disaster scenario was not, well, I might get some bad marks.
But my disaster scenario was, okay, well, I have to rest so that I can study, but I can't rest because I have to study.
But if I don't rest, then I can't study.
And if I can't study, then I can't do well in my exams.
If I can't do well in my exams, I'm going to get kicked out and I'm going to have to go back to working in the restaurant industry for the rest of my life.
I'm going to have to go back. I don't know.
I'm going to end up working some crap job for the rest.
It became a disaster.
The rest of my life hung in the balance of whether I was going to do well on this set of exams or not.
And so there's decisions in the moment that have this big, huge, cascading, snowballing domino effect into the future.
And for me, at least in my experience, anxiety is what occurs when you look at these little things in the present and they escalate to some massive disaster in the future.
And that's what makes these little things so stressful.
Everything becomes big, if that makes any sense.
Does this fit at all with anything you've experienced or what your parents have?
Yeah, yeah. No, no.
It makes a lot of sense.
And I'm really, really good at setting up dominoes.
And I think it's easier for me to identify what my sort of big echo is at the end.
But I'm struggling with my parents.
Like, I don't... Well, we can go with yours.
Sometimes it's easier to look at other people's, but if you know yours, let's ditch that and go with yours.
Right. I think it all sort of comes down to money for me.
I look at the dentist and I don't have anxiety over the stuff that insurance covers.
Most of the time it's anxiety over stuff that I'm going to be paying out of pocket.
The same The same with the car.
My warranty is running out soon.
I'm worried every time I take it in, they're going to say, oh, well, you didn't do such and such treatment or service in time.
Your warranty is void and you're going to have to pay this one out of pocket.
But then again, you live in Canada.
We've got socialized health care.
I don't get those same worries when I go to the doctor.
Sorry, you live in Canada as well?
Is that right? Yeah, I'm in Vancouver.
These anxieties don't creep up when I go to the doctor because it's like you know you're not paying for it directly, right?
Just by the by, it just popped into my head when you were talking about car repairs.
The air conditioning in my Volvo died and it's the one with the baby car seat in it.
I was going to get it repaired, but it was supposed to be $700 or $900 to get repaired, but they can't get a certain part and this and that, so then basically it was going to be about $2,000 to get the air conditioning repaired.
It's like, I know we've got to drive to Philadelphia and that, we're just going to sweat for $2,000.
We'll just consider it a, it's no longer a mobile studio now, it's a mobile sauna.
So I certainly know that it can be a little stressful, but I mean, that was an optional fix, but sometimes it's not with cars, but yeah, okay.
So money is a big one for you, right?
Right. Most of my issues, they always come down to the money.
They always end with some big horror story where I've got to put another mortgage on my place and throw all my money at some big disaster scenario that's come up.
Most of the time, there's no actual disaster scenario.
Like, you know, I just work myself up, set this huge trail of dominoes, and there's no big issue at the end.
Like, the last one I was actually worked up with was the car problem, and, you know, I had this...
Horror story in my mind that, you know, I was going to have to replace my engine and everything was going wrong with my car.
And I took it into the mechanic. He goes, okay, change your oil.
Everything looks good. See you in four months.
And it was just like, I lost sleep for two weeks and there was nothing wrong.
And, you know, I spent my nights online checking the symptoms of what sort of noises I was hearing from the car and going through Volkswagen forums and, you know, You know, just doing all this crazy, crazy stuff when it was just no big deal.
You know, there was nothing wrong.
But I always find myself doing that.
Okay, so you hear some noises in your car or it's due for a checkup, is that right?
Yeah, what happened this time was the oil was really low and...
Yeah, so you just add oil.
Most people would just add oil and just take it for an oil change.
Okay, so tell me what happens then with your thinking.
As you say, you didn't sleep for two weeks.
Sorry, that was a little extreme.
Sleep is interrupted for two weeks.
If you didn't sleep for two weeks, you'd be dead.
So what is it that goes on in your mind?
There must be a disaster scenario if it's interfering with your sleep.
What is it that goes on in your mind?
it causes you that much stress?
I guess part of it is I take it to the dealership and I don't 100% trust them.
Yeah, that's not a design.
Not trusting a mechanic is not the disaster scenario.
Oh, sorry. You're asking for it.
We can skip ahead to the planet.
It's really scary. Right.
Like, what's the disaster? Like, describe the disaster scenario?
Yeah, well, what are the dominoes that happen that end with you living out of a shopping cart or something?
Like, what is it that happens?
What could happen that causes that?
I guess what kind of goes through my mind is, you know, this is my first sort of new-ish car.
I've always... Driven sort of older cars, like in the $3,000 range.
And, you know, with those cars, you sort of, where you don't have warranty, you got cheap price and you sort of have to deal with lots of problems as they creep up.
So, I'm used to like...
Overheats on the side of the highway, getting towed.
Okay, you're going to have to pass forward just a little bit because you're still not a disaster scenario land, right?
Okay, I'm just imagining that's going to happen to my current car.
Okay, so let's say that you overheat by the side of the road, then what?
Right. Yeah, and then I get towed to the dealership and they say, well, your engine's blown, we're going to have to replace your engine.
Okay, and what happens if you have to get your engine replaced?
You know, a big bill that I wasn't expecting.
Okay, so what happens if you get a big bill, right?
So you've got to help me out here, right?
Right, right. Okay.
I mean, I'm just pushing this to try and sort of understand where the disaster scenario comes in.
And I know there is one, right?
And I want to get you there, right?
I just don't want to go through every conceivable step because then we'll be here for two weeks and we already do.
Okay, I won't be able to afford it.
I'll have to sell my house and I won't be able to enjoy anything or I won't be able to I don't know.
I'll just be in financial ruin.
It'll be a strain that breaks the camel's back.
And what is the camel's back with regard to your finances?
Because finances are just numbers, right?
You can either afford it or you can't.
And if you can afford it and you have to tighten your belt in other areas, then you have to tighten your belt in other areas.
But it's math, right?
Right. So, help me understand, so let's say you get a bill for, I don't know what, $5,000 to fix your engine?
Something insane, right?
So, is it that you would not have the money to pay it?
Right, because you can get a $5,000 loan and you can pay it off a couple of hundred bucks a month for a couple of years or whatever, right?
It's not the end of the world, right? It's a pain, for sure, and you'd have to cut back in other things, right?
You might have to cut cable or something, right?
But you wouldn't, you know, it's not third world, right?
Right. I guess that's sort of what worries me is that, you know, all of a sudden, the things that I'm currently enjoying, I won't be able to enjoy.
Not that I spend a lot of money on myself or anything.
Yeah, so you'd have to make some sacrifices in other areas to keep the car running, right?
Right. Right.
Now, help me understand the disaster aspect of that.
I mean, I agree it's not positive.
Nobody wants a $5,000 bill.
But what is the disaster of, well, I'll have to cut back or I won't be able to take that vacation or whatever it is, right?
I mean, I don't think that we in the West, and I don't think that you in particular, are such hothouse flowers that if things don't go our way in some...
It's all over. You know what I mean?
I'm trying to understand where the thinking is.
Somewhere there's a break in logic of these dominoes.
And if you don't know where that is, then it just keeps going, right?
So let's say you get a $5,000 bill to fix your car, in which case you may just say, fuck it, I'm going to junk the car or sell the car and I'm going to buy a $3,000 clunker, which is going to last me for a year or two, right?
Right, right. There's no car bill for you that's going to be greater than $3,000 because then you just sell your car and get a $3,000 car, right?
Right, yeah. I mean, it's a possibility, right?
You have a cap of $3,000, right?
Yeah. Okay.
So let's say you get hit with a $3,000 bill.
Tell me the sequence.
Like, what is it that happens, right?
So you get the $3,000 bill and then what?
Steph, I have no idea.
Yes, you have an idea.
You absolutely have an idea.
Don't pull that on me. Come on.
You've been listening for a while.
You know that doesn't work, right?
You absolutely have an idea because you're having the emotional response.
If you're having the emotional response, then there's a domino that goes from your frontal lobes all the way down to your spinal cord, right?
So you get the bill, and then what?
You pay the bill, or you borrow the money, or you, whatever, right?
You take the bus. I don't know if you can or not, right?
Maybe you're a cab driver, I don't know, right?
But you will do something to deal with it, and you will adjust your lifestyle differently, right?
Right. I know this sounds silly, but the only thing that's coming up is like, I don't want to pay that bill.
And I know, okay, well then, you know, that's sort of a consequence of having a car.
You sort of...
Okay, let's go back then, because I can see you're floundering a little, and I totally understand that, and I respect that.
Because if you weren't floundering, we wouldn't be looking at the right thing.
Does that make sense? Like, it has to be something that's hard for you to figure out.
You listen to this show, you're a smart guy, right?
Yeah. I guess, yeah.
Yes, okay. We'll come back to that in a moment, but we'll do one thing at a time, right?
Okay, so you said earlier on, you said, I'm going to take my car in, and the guy's going to say, well, you should have done this, that, and the other, so now it's going to be X, Y, and Z dollars, right?
Right. Right.
What I got a sense of that, which is just, you know, what I got a sense of doesn't mean it's true, but what I got a sense of was what you were worried about was somebody criticizing you.
Right. Right?
And you didn't mention anything about the money there.
What you did mention was that you were afraid that somebody was going to criticize you.
Yeah, like, I guess what comes to mind is, like, you should know better.
Like, there's, you know, you have to perform these regular maintenance things on your car, and you've just let it slide, and this is all your fault.
Aha! Okay. I don't want to hear that.
It's up there, right?
Okay. Right?
So, what just happened?
It's all your fault? Right.
Like, this could have been prevented if you would have done...
Now, does that have any resonance with your own personal history?
All right, let me rephrase that.
Okay. Because, again, look, it's totally fine that you're drawing blanks here, because if you were, it would be pointless to talk, right?
Right, right.
Well, my car has a dent in it, a big hunk in dent, and it was going to cost like $2,500 to fix or something like that.
I was working on some code, and there was a client delivery, and I ended up being very late for therapy, and I kind of tore out of an underground parking lot, turned too quickly, and went up against one of the concrete edges.
And, of course, you know, it was terrible because it wasn't just the door, but they had to replace.
Anyway, so I never got it fixed because I don't care that much about a dent in my door.
To me, that's cosmetic.
It's not doing the car any harm.
It's just a dent in the door. And, you know, $2,500 is a lot of money.
So I never got it fixed.
And actually, when I went to my therapist that day, I said, you know, this is very interesting.
Because I have a public mistake on my car, which I don't want to get fixed, right?
So everyone can look at that and they can say, well, it kind of looks like you scraped something, because it sure as hell does.
It doesn't look like somebody hit me, right?
It looks like somebody scraped me, right?
Right. And so publicly, I have this crap driver.
Actually, I think it gives me some room on the highway.
But anyway, it's a very public mistake.
An error, right?
And the weird thing is it actually turned out to save me a fortune, which is weird, right?
Because I called my insurance company and while I was talking to them and they said, basically, because they're an insurance company, we can't help you, right?
So I talked to them and they said, oh, your driver's license hasn't been upgraded.
It's costing you, you know, a couple of hundred dollars a year.
Actually, it was about four or five hundred dollars a year.
So I've actually made back more money by calling the insurance company about the thing I didn't get fixed than I would have from fixing the car.
So it's just the weird way that life works out.
It's really hard to judge these things ahead of time sometimes.
But it was a very public mistake.
So what's interesting to me is that...
You could be, possibly, possibly, possibly, you could be more concerned or you could have a stronger emotional response to disapproval than cost.
So let me ask you a question and just tell me what comes to your mind.
So let's say that this did happen.
You take your car to the mechanic and the mechanic looks at you like he's peeing on you from a great height and says, I can't believe you don't take care of your equipment.
This was completely preventable.
It was absolutely irresponsible.
Why? Because he's the worst mechanic in the world who doesn't like making money.
But anyway, we'll just continue with the theory.
And then you go to your parents' place for dinner and you're sitting there and they say, how was your day?
And you tell them the story of your car and the mechanic and the monstrous repair bill.
And what do they say?
So, right, right.
My dad's not a huge believer in servicing his car anyways, so he might not say anything, but yeah, I could see somebody saying, like, did you do all the preventative maintenance that you should have?
Now, they wouldn't say that right after you told them that you were repudiated for not doing the preventative maintenance, right?
Oh, right, right, right.
Sorry, sorry. Right?
Right. Yeah, I could see like a little bit of, well, you know, like you chose not to do that.
So it's kind of, you know, like you took the risk and, you know, it bit you this time.
And what does that translate to you?
Because I'm annoyed with you even imitating them, which, you know, again, doesn't mean anything.
What does that mean to you if they say that?
Well, it's just kind of like, well, yeah, I kind of know that.
I've already heard that today.
Right, so why would someone repeat it to you?
Right, yeah, it's just sort of like, here, I'll put another knife in you.
Right, right, okay, go on.
You don't look like you're in enough pain, you know.
And how would you feel if someone did say, again, I know we're working totally theoretically, but how would you feel if someone did say that to you, right?
Well, you took the risk and it bit you, didn't it, right?
Whatever it is that they would say, right?
Yeah, it's kind of like reiterating the obvious and it's just kind of annoying.
I would feel angry.
Okay, and then would you be able to express that anger?
Like, what would you do with that anger in that situation?
I'd probably like, yeah, no shit, you know, sort of a...
Sarcastic or...
Right, like...
So you wouldn't express it?
Because sarcasm is not expressing anger, right?
No, no. That comes to mind.
I guess I probably...
A more useful thing would be, like...
No, no, no. Get the useful thing.
Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, that's what I would do.
That's what I just...
Like, no shit, Sherlock, kind of thing, right?
Yeah, like, oh, thanks, Captain Obvious.
Right, okay.
Now, why couldn't you say, you know, when you said that I just felt really annoyed?
I probably could say that to them.
You know, I just haven't had that machinery.
You know, like, I just haven't...
Okay. We're talking theoreticals, right?
Like, if you'd had a different set of wiring, right?
No, no, no, I'm just...
Right, right, right.
So, and so I'm just going to keep pestering you, and I hope you don't mind me just being annoying.
No, that's...
I guess what I was just trying to say is that, like, up until about a year ago, that's the response I would have got, and I think, or I would have given that sort of, like, sarcastic, like...
But I think I'm moving into more comfortably doing like an RTR type thing.
I'm sort of getting closer.
Moving more comfortably into is not quite safe doing, right?
Excellent. Weasel words, I must say.
You speak weasel very fluently.
Sorry, go ahead. Right. Like, I wouldn't say I do it consistently, but I would think that I'm getting closer to that as being my response than that.
Okay, but not talking about the future theoretical, which is not what's keeping you awake for that amount of time, keeping you up.
Why? If you're sitting down with your parents and you tell them this story and they say, well, you took the chance and it bit you in the butt and whatever, right?
Sucks to be you, you know, whatever, right?
And if you couldn't express that that's irritating to you, Why can't you express it?
What is the emotion that arises if you consider or contemplate speaking honestly about how you feel in the moment?
And you understand, everybody's the same way.
We all have this challenge about speaking honestly in the moment, because it goes against the grain of everyone, so you're certainly not alone in this.
But what is the feeling that comes up if you were to have the urge to say, actually, that annoys me, and I don't know why, when you said that?
What would the response be from your parents?
I don't think that they would get angry with that.
I honestly don't. Like, I think they'd be like...
Like, it doesn't jump to me that they'd snap back.
I'm not asking what they wouldn't do.
I'm asking what you think you would do, right?
I think they'd ask me about it.
I'd say, oh, I didn't mean to do that.
I don't know that they'd say, call me more.
Sorry, I didn't mean to do that is not asking you about it.
It's defending yourself, right?
It would be them defending themselves.
I'm just pointing that out, right?
Because you said they would ask me about it, but then you gave me an example of them defending themselves, right?
Okay, okay. They would probably say, oh, sorry, I didn't mean it to come out that way.
That's also a defense.
Right, right. No, sorry.
That's the response I would probably get.
Just giving that to you.
I'm so sorry. I understand.
And then how would you feel if you received that response?
It kind of feels nice at first, but without sort of digging a little further, just sort of like, that's it?
There's no resolution, right?
Right, right. And also, it's kind of like...
It's a little insulting, because it's like, well, you misunderstood, right?
Right, and when they clearly just reiterated the obvious, it's like, how can I misunderstand that?
Well, they're saying that you're misunderstanding their emotional intention, right?
Right. And that's kind of an easy answer to say.
Like, if you say something that's kind of annoying, and then someone says, that's kind of annoying, and you say, no, no, no, you misunderstood.
That's even more annoying, right?
Right, right.
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's the point where I start to...
Feel like the furnace is being turned up in my body.
Absolutely. When your head starts to get hot.
Yeah, that is a perfectly, perfectly rational response, in my opinion.
And why is that a rational response to that situation?
I think because they're saying, well, your gauges are off.
You're misreading.
You know, it's sort of being turned back on.
No, I understand that, but why do you start, like, if I talk about, because the first RTR, if it doesn't work, things get stressful very quickly, right?
Right. And that's an inevitable, it seems to be at least an inevitable escalation, right, that happens.
Right. Because if you try to be honest with someone about what you're thinking and feeling, and then they get defensive and kind of put you down, or dismissive, or they just want you to shut up or change the topic or something like that, they've immediately started to escalate, right?
Okay. Because what they're doing is they're saying, well, I'm going to make it very hard for you to be honest.
I'm going to make it really hard for you to be honest, right?
Okay. Mm-hmm.
Do you see what I mean?
Because you're going to have to say, no, no, no, wait, that to me is even more annoying because I sort of, I feel like, you know, like you're just saying I'm wrong or something like that or, you know, like, and you have to then push it and then what are they going to say?
You're making this a bigger deal than it really is?
Right, then they accuse you of escalating, right?
And then what do you say? It's very tough very quickly, doesn't it?
It escalates so quickly.
If you continue the commitment to honesty about what you feel, not honesty, not jump to conclusions, but if you continue with, now I feel this, and now I feel that, and now this really bothers me, and so on, you can go from zero to brinksmanship in about 90 you can go from zero to brinksmanship in about 90 goddamn seconds.
This is how close to the brink we all are in our relationships, right?
How close to the precipice.
And the precipice doesn't mean the end of the relationship.
I'm not talking about that. But the precipice means actually getting to where the problems are in the relationship with the goal of fixing them, right?
Right, right. That's kind of what I'm worried about with therapy is that I'm just going to sort of put band-aids on all the symptoms and they're just going to You know, new boils are going to come up.
Well, that won't be therapy, right?
Because you're saying therapy, I'm worried about therapy because I'm going to put bandit, but therapy is not you, right?
Therapy is not... Therapy is not you.
Therapy is not going to make you do that.
That's a choice that you make, right?
And therapy can assist you or not in that, right?
Right. If you make the choice to lose weight, I don't know if you need to or whatever, but if you make the choice to lose weight, your doctor will support you on that, but he's not going to not eat for you, right?
Right, right. I guess what, maybe I just said that wrong.
I guess what I'm worried is that I'm going to sort of calm all the symptoms.
Consider that better, and then they're just going to come back.
Right. So you see what the anxiety is?
You're afraid, if I understand you correctly, and tell me if I'm wrong, you're afraid that you're going to lose yourself to yourself.
you're afraid that you're going to vanish into conformity and cease to exist and that's a really common fear That is a really common fear because there's this insistent undertow and this wind that pushes at us from everywhere.
Right? Fall in line.
Conform. Don't make waves.
Don't push things.
Everybody's comfortable. Everybody's happy.
Right? And when we try to break out of these roles or these molds or these habits And we say, I'm not content with going down the grooves of my life like a train, like an old rusty train slowly rolling downhill.
I want to jump the tracks and I want to live more intelligently, more sensitively, more awarely, more openly, more vulnerably in the moment.
Well, it's like you suddenly go on improv when everybody's trying to do a script out of Shakespeare.
Right. And the anxiety is the crossroads, right?
The greatest disaster is losing the self, in my experience and opinion.
The greatest disaster is to lose the self.
And the self is a small fucking candle in a big fucking wind in the world, the true self.
And everybody Most people want you to not rock the boat, to not make waves, to not be honest, to not push for truth in relationships, right?
But to step around their habits and prejudices is like we'd step around a minefield, right?
But the anxiety is the crossroads.
It's like, well, am I going to live the life of conformity and expectation?
Am I going to live the life of not rocking the boat, of speaking my lines that I know are coming, right?
Am I going to live the life of patriotism and cheering some stupid-ass sports team and all of the stereotypes and habits of whatever particular class and occupation we find ourselves in?
Or am I going to think and live vitally and originally?
Am I going to be who I am and see who's interested?
or am I going to play it safe and going to hedge my bets, just have a little bit of self but a whole lot of conformity because I don't want to upset people.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now, tell me if I'm way off base, if we're doing anything useful here at all, because I can't see your face, right?
So I don't know if you... Right, right.
No, no, I... Sort of say, yeah, that makes some sense, right?
No, no, I... I... Yeah, I... A lot of times I feel like I'm being swallowed up by sort of the easy, you know, just go along and just...
Yeah, no, what you said made a lot of sense.
And we all do, you understand?
We all feel that.
That is the misty, swampy undercurrent that sacks us down to nothingness, to not self-expression, to not honesty, to not vitality, to not energy, to not curiosity, to not vulnerability, to not living in a very fundamental way.
And it is a deadly...
Toxic, numbing temptation, which we all face and we all fall into.
And I am the annoying person who urges people to be honest, to be open, to be curious, to be angry, to be happy, to live openly and to live honestly.
Thank you.
And it's really alarming to a lot of people.
And I say, you know, try and do it gently, try and do it in stages that don't freak everyone out or whatever, right?
But it certainly has felt to me many times in my life like without a strong Effort of will.
I'm just disintegrating into the expectations and the requirements and the needs of others who themselves don't even really seem to exist that I'm dissolving into nothingness for the sake of nothing.
Not for the sake of achieving a great good or a great goal.
Not for the sake of saving lives or saving the world, saving the future, saving my children, but for nothing.
That I'm being drawn down into an evaporating pettiness for no point whatsoever.
To slide down to be embraced and absorbed by ghosts rather than to live in the clear sunlight a whole man.
And this may not be the root of your anxiety.
I think it's the root of a lot of people's anxiety.
I know that's the root of some of my anxiety for sure.
And I mean, I deal with this the way that everybody else does.
There's no getting past it.
It's not a human condition, but it's the way we're raised condition, right?
Even if your parents are great, there's still teachers and stupid school nonsense and all that kind of crap or priests or whatever, right?
So... So isn't there that fork in the road, this massive fork in the road about what kind of life you're going to live?
Does that resonate with you?
Does that ring true at all with you?
Because it's not about your car's fucking fluids, right?
We understand that, right?
It's something much deeper and much more powerful than that, right?
Which is a life choice about how it is we're going to be on the planet.
Yeah, I do think...
I would agree with you on that.
I think a lot of my struggles come from being clawed back by my old habits.
Tell me what those habits are.
are?
What are the habits that are draining you or, or making you feel stressed or dissociated or anxious in this way?
Um, I, I guess like dealing with anger sometimes.
Um, I get pretty passive-aggressive, even to the point where I get aggressive, and I just...
I would say that that's sort of one thing I struggle with still.
Like, sorry, did you want it related to anxiety?
No, no, look, the passive aggression, right, the anxiety could be the accumulation of habits that you know are unworthy of you in the long run.
Right, and we'll get back to the passive aggression thing in just a second, but let me ask you this.
No, no, it's a great answer, really.
I appreciate that. I want to bookmark that.
Just come back for a second, because...
I think this choice needs to be conscious, right?
And the choice is what kind of life do you actually want to live in this world, right?
And, you know, if we all dream, oh, I'm going to be some Howard Rockian hero and so on, and I dreamt of that when I was younger, and, you know, maybe to a small degree I've achieved that, you know, sometimes.
But... But what is my fundamental commitment?
My fundamental commitment is just to really try and live rationally and openly and passionately and courageously.
All of those things, right?
I've got a whole mess of things that I try to achieve.
And that doesn't mean that I'm not going to slip into conformity.
I'm not going to slip into this, that, and the other for sure.
But that's sort of where I try to get back to, right?
So I'm trying to head north.
There's a huge storm.
There's like frozen frogs flying through the air and knocking out my teeth.
And I maybe have to tack a little ways or go this way or that way.
But that's where I head back to. Check the compass and try and head back north, right?
Now, other people, they want to go with the flow, right?
They want to... To conform.
And I don't have, I really don't have the disrespect and contempt that a lot of people who try to live vitally do for conformity.
I really don't. It's, you know, this life of honesty and openness and so on and courage, it's not for everyone.
It's not for everyone.
Right? Right.
And I wonder if that's something that you think about, you know, just in terms of what kind of life do I want to have tomorrow?
Like, what is my commitment going to be to tomorrow?
Is it going to be to, you know, be honest, be open, be vulnerable, be courageous, you know, to fuck up six ways from Sunday the way that we all do when we try to live originally?
To make mistakes that I can call my own rather than to have successes that rely on the approval of others, which is not your own, which turns you into a ghost, right?
But what is your commitment for tomorrow?
Is it to conform or is it to create yourself in a more authentic way or to be who you are in a more authentic and honest way?
And I'm not saying that that may sound like a silly question.
I'm saying you're going to achieve it all tomorrow.
But what is your fundamental commitment about that?
Is it to say, well, philosophy is an entertaining thing to listen to and that Seth guy can rant very amusingly.
But it's not really for me. I prefer the conformity stuff so it becomes sort of entertainment.
I really genuinely can respect people who take that approach, right?
Because they're not bullshitting themselves, right?
And they're not trying to get something without paying for it, right?
By saying, oh, I'm going to be, you know, radical philosophy guy and then go conform, right?
If they say, well, it's not for me.
It's too much stress, too much strain, blah, blah, blah.
That's fine, right?
But which is it going to be for you?
Right.
You know, I like to say I take the courageous route and live with integrity, but if I was somebody looking at my life right now, I would definitely say it's some guy that's interested in philosophy as entertainment.
Well, no, no. You're not answering, right?
You're not answering because you're saying, I'd like to do this, but when I look at my life.
But I don't think you've had the choice put to you quite starkly, right?
No, nobody's ever asked. So your life before this, it's not what you use for evidence of what you want because it hasn't been your choice, right?
Like, for instance, if you don't have a compass and you walk around blindfolded, then you walk around in circles, right?
And you say, well, it's my destiny to walk around circles until someone takes off their blindfold and gives you a compass, right?
Then you can't use the empiricism of walking around in circles because now you've got eyesight and a compass, right?
So you have a different choice than you had before.
Right, but I've heard many of your podcasts where you sort of phrase that to the listener and, well, I felt inspired and, like, I just, you know, I always kind of end up ditching it, you know? Yeah, but come on!
It took me 20 years of studying philosophy to even remotely get what it meant to live it.
20 years, almost, of studying philosophy and Before I got what it meant to really live it.
Now, I mean, hopefully accelerating that process a little bit for other people.
Hopefully not in a scary way, right?
So, and you don't, I mean, obviously you don't have to answer this.
You don't have to answer it today.
You don't ever, ever have to answer it.
But I wanted to put the question out there.
Because I'll tell you, when I couldn't sleep...
It was when I had imbibed so many values that I was not practicing that I no longer felt that I inhabited my own body.
Right. And that strikes a chord.
All right, so I'll shut up now and you talk for a minute, if that's right.
Well... Like, when you brought up the example of like, you know, how much you lived your values like 10 years ago and you said about 1%.
Maybe. I was thinking that would be nice if I could live 1%.
Right, right.
You know, I'm not like doing crazy things.
It's just like, you know, I'm not acting with integrity when I should be.
You know, I'm not robbing banks and stuff, but I'm just...
I could be doing more, and probably about 99.5% more.
Right, and...
Sorry, I said I was going to shut up, and I will.
I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, no.
I'm putting the plunger on my face, go on.
I just... I can tell that leads to a lot of frustration as well.
What does? Well, just...
You know, going around talking about this stuff, but then if the spotlight turned on me, they'd be like, wow, like for a guy that talks this stuff, you're kind of not doing it, you know?
Right, so you're like the 300-pound personal trainer, right?
Right, and it's almost embarrassing to the point where I don't like talking about it with people because it's like, well, don't you do this?
You know, it'd just be so easy for them to say, like, That's nice that you prescribed that for me, but...
Right, right.
And I guess it's just really easy to take these easy outs, you know, and not...
You know, just like processing emotions, it's way easier to put on a movie and fall asleep than it is to sort of ride the storm and try and figure out some useful information to try and prevent the storm for the next night.
Sure. Yeah.
And I guess I just, a lot of times I take the shortcuts and I would say that's probably a big part of it too, like the anxiety I'm experiencing.
Right. Nobly, honestly, bravely, magnificently put, I, you know, I would break into an applause for one, but it would sound sardonic, you know, like one guy clapping in the room with a great performance.
Right, right. Thanks.
Right. All right, so...
So, this always sounds accusatory, and I really, really don't mean it that way at all, because it is a genuine question.
It's not like, well, why aren't you living your values, right?
Because that always sounds like, well, why aren't you living your values, right?
I don't mean it that way. I mean, like, what is the gap?
I mean, I think I know what it is just because we're both carbon-based lifeforms who've gone through the same kind of thing, so I think I have some idea, but what's your theory about why it's easier?
Well, I think like in the short term there's a lot of sort of benefits you gotta put down and it seems like a lot of work and I know you seem so happy but it just seems so far away.
No, listen, I mean, I have my moments where it's...
It's, you know, it's like passing a watermelon through a nostril.
So, I mean, yes, I'm a pretty happy guy, but it's not all, you know, I'm not doing the constant Macarena, but I understand that there's definitely a challenge to it.
But why is there a challenge to it, right?
What is difficult about living your values?
What is it going to cost and who is it going to cost if you live your values, right?
Because if you don't know why, then you're going to blame yourself.
I just don't live my values.
Shouldn't have watched that movie, right?
You end up with these muttered debates yourself.
Well, I should do this next time, and I make a list, and I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that.
I mean, Jesus Christ, that's like philosophy is a shopping cart, right?
Philosophy is taxes. Philosophy is a chore.
Philosophy is a have-to.
Philosophy is a, you know, well, I need to argue better with other people, so I guess I should live these things.
Like, that's not going to work, right?
Philosophy is not a checklist of things that you need to get done in order to feel relaxed, right?
So, why don't you want to live your values?
It's not because of you, right?
Alone, right?
It can't be. Because we all live in social environment, right?
Right. I think a big one is sort of the isolation of living.
You know, I know there's...
I do have friends in town that are members of the board.
They're amazing friends, but it's like all of a sudden work gets way tougher.
Oh, you like your job?
Yeah. Wow.
You don't have to live your values at work.
That's not what you're paid for, right?
I don't have to live my values at work.
Yeah, I mean, you don't have to do, you know, open honesty, RTR, and this and that with people at your job, because they're not paying you for that, right?
I mean, it doesn't matter really what you do, right?
I mean, unless you're a therapist, which you're not, I assume.
No. But you don't have to live those values at work, right?
You feel tense or anxious in a meeting.
You don't necessarily have to say, I feel tense and anxious in this meeting, and I don't know why, and who would like to read this book, right?
We understand that's not particularly productive, right?
Right. So it's not work.
Because we don't have relationships at work, right?
We have dry calculations of mutual utility.
I mean, we can be sort of friends with people at work or whatever, right?
But it's not an intimate setting, right?
Right. Right.
Or if it is, you're working for Clinton and should quit, right?
No, no, I'm not working for Clinton, so...
Okay, I guess I'm kind of skirting around it.
I am worried about the consequences on my family.
Right. I've had some good positive discussions, but...
I haven't taken it the whole way.
So, you know, there's sort of...
Well, what percentage of the way have you taken it?
Because I can't figure it out from 1% to 99% where you fall.
Right, right. I talked to my mom and my dad.
Well, I sat down with my mom.
Sorry, I didn't sit down. I called her on the phone.
I keep changing my story. I called her on the phone.
You were sitting down, I assume.
You didn't stand the whole thing. Right, right.
That's right. There was a little bit of pacing.
Yeah, yeah. And I just, I really opened up to her about how distant I feel in the relationship and how I can't talk with her and I can't communicate with her and just how I feel like I'm just becoming further and further from her and I And sorry,
let me just understand, so further and further from her means that you started in a place of closeness and your rest of us now?
Well, I just, in the last, you know, I told her, like, I don't even really like visiting you guys.
Sorry, let me just rephrase that, because I think you may have missed the question.
Right, okay. You said that you're getting further and further away from your mother, and I just want to make sure, because I like to be precise when I understand things.
Right. Do you mean that you were originally close and had an honest and open and intimate relationship with your mother, but it became less so over time?
Or was it not close to begin with, but it's getting even less close now?
Okay, okay. Yeah, I totally miss that one.
For the longest time, I thought I had a really close relationship, and then I discovered FDR and I started questioning things.
You know, I realized there was all these things that we never talked about, and I guess what I said to her was that I'm less inclined to talk to you the more I kind of discover all these sort of areas that have been off-limits or just really uncomfortable for many,
many years. Yeah, I thought I was close, but I don't think it was really closeness.
I had never really examined it.
There was lots of chatter, but it was never really deep.
So can you give me the decade or the rough age that you are?
It doesn't matter precisely. I'm 28.
28, okay. So you're pushing 30, right?
I'm getting there, yeah.
Yeah, you're getting there, right? I know, I know.
But here's the thing, right?
And this is really quite a thing.
And I'm afraid I haven't had a convo in a while, and so I've got some thoughts.
So let me unload this one and then we'll continue.
But I think it's really relevant to your situation, right?
You and I have been talking about this for about 45 minutes, right?
Maybe a little longer because there was some intro stuff or whatever, right?
But we've really been digging in for maybe 30 or 40, 45 minutes, right?
Right, right.
Thank you.
Isn't it amazing?
And I mean, you and I, we're not friends.
I mean, we, you know, I think you're a great guy.
I'm glad that you're a listener, but, you know, we don't know each other that well or whatever, right?
But this is what just amazes me about human society is why the fuck don't people talk to you about this stuff?
Why don't they ask you?
Why does it have to be some guy over the internet when you're surrounded by friends and family?
Why does it have to be some guy over the internet thousands of miles away who you barely know Who has to ask you these questions, fundamental questions, about what kind of life you want?
What kind of relationships you want, right?
What kind of vitality do you want in your life?
What do you think about conformity versus independence?
What are the pluses and minuses of each?
These, to me, like, there's just...
I don't understand why people talk about anything else fundamentally, right?
But isn't it amazing that you're 28 years old, And you've had friends and family around you for almost three decades.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you haven't had this kind of conversation with anyone.
Right. Yeah, I've got some FDR friends that I've had this sort of conversation with, but...
Okay, so that's been over about a year or two?
Right, right. Nothing prior to you introducing it to me.
No. Right. And isn't that amazing?
Isn't that amazing? That you can be around people for decades without having basic conversations about life.
Choices and consequences, costs and benefits.
It's just basic things.
What kind of life do you want?
You know, what would make you happy, right?
Right. It is a real tragedy.
You know, I see the world as so fundamentally isolated.
We might as well all be in different galaxies.
Because people can go through their whole life without having one meaningful conversation about anything with anyone.
And what a desperate tragedy that is.
Right? Because for most people, when you start to have some sort of important conversation about life, isn't it like you've just broke through a desert you didn't even know existed into the most amazing, cool, sweet water you've ever tasted?
For sure, yeah.
I just wanted to point that out, because to me it's amazing that people can just have these people in their lives Without there being these kinds of conversations, God, imagine what a world it would be if we had these conversations with children starting at the age of five or six or seven.
What kind of life do you want?
What would make you happy? What do you like?
What do you dislike? What do you think of going along versus finding it out for yourself?
I don't understand what people talk about all the time if they don't talk about this stuff, at least some of the time, right?
No, I agree.
It's something that's really saddened me.
I've shed a lot of tears over that.
That's something I've thought about lots.
I was 28 and I talked to my parents about the weather and the cats and their golf game.
That's not the conversations I want to be having.
Yeah. They're okay, right?
I mean, not every meal can be five star, but you don't want to be trapped in that little room of inconsequential small talk falling away into infinity for no point whatsoever.
And to not feel comfortable talking about other things.
Yes, yes, it's the fear, isn't it?
The fear of bringing up these other topics, right?
It makes people very anxious when you bring up topics that actually mean something.
Right. Right.
I think humanity's cancer is boredom and predictability.
Routine, scripted conversations.
Empty, non-sequiturous, predictable, knee-jerk, emotional, quote, responses.
Right? It's a very little life to live like that, right?
It's a very small and powerless and inconsequential life.
Right, and when you talk to the average person about, like, deep conversation, it seems to always just be cliche, like...
Yeah, man, life is short.
We've got to make the best of every moment.
And they think that's bonding, you know?
And it just seems so pathetic.
I read this in a fortune cookie once.
Maybe this sounds deep.
Yeah, it's still sort of quasi-stoner talk, you know?
Life is a journey, not a destination.
Yeti, yeti, yeti. Right, right, right.
But that's just turning depth into cliches, right?
And emptying them out of all reality, right?
Mm-hmm.
I certainly don't understand why people don't panic more when they get older, you know, but I guess maybe they, I don't know, it's just all died away and there's nothing left, right?
I mean, I so much want people to just talk to each other about stuff that's really important.
to help each other.
All right.
You should not have to be inventing this stuff at 28.
We should not start so far behind the eight ball, so to speak.
Thank you.
We should have these conversations earlier and richer and more meaningful.
And, you know, of course my goal, my hope is that if you can't have these conversations with your parents, I hope you can, but if you can't, at least you can have them with your own kids.
So they won't have to be 25, 26, 28, or 58 and inventing these words that they've yearned for their whole life, hoping that it's not too late.
So I think the anxiety, you know, I said it's the dominoes that lead to the catastrophe.
And we all layer over this catastrophe that has to do with money or attractiveness or sex or whatever, right?
We all layer over.
But that's just a cover to me.
That's just a camouflage about...
So what do you mean by laying over?
Um... Well, you had this thing about, you know, money and your car and other people have stuff about, you know, I get sick or, you know, so I'll be unattractive, I'll never have any friends and all this kind of, like we all layer these things over what we're really afraid of.
Which is slowly draining out of existence through conformity and the indifference of others or the hostility of others to our true thoughts and feelings.
To staying around people who not only don't see us but won't see us for who we really are.
But resist tooth and nail seeing us for who we really are.
And staying around long enough for those people, right?
I swear to God, when I was younger, social interactions, for the most part, not always, but for the most part, I felt like a pearl diver.
You know, like I had to go down and get these pearls of social contact or whatever, because I'm a social animal or whatever, right?
But I couldn't stay.
I couldn't stay because I had to go back up to the surface.
Which was actually the depth, right?
I had to go into reading great books or to writing or whatever it was that I was doing that had some kind of depth, even if it was meditation or yoga or whatever.
Something that had some kind of depth and richness to it.
So it was kind of the inverse.
I was actually diving to the shallowness and rising back to the depths.
And I couldn't stay down there.
And I think we think, well, we're going to go into these shallow relationships.
We're going to go into these habitual dead things.
We're going to just climb into this suit of armor, and then we'll be able to take it off.
And we'll climb into it, and we'll be able to take it off.
And then one day, we're in it, and we can't undo the fucking straps anymore.
Right? We think, oh, we'll dive down, we'll get some pearls, we'll come back up, we'll dive down, we'll get some pearls, we'll come back up.
One day you dive down, and a giant fucking clam closes on your hands, and you can't get back up again.
Isn't that what we're most afraid of?
That we're going to postpone and dilly-dally and not be honest with the people around us and not be open and not be vulnerable.
That we're just going to play at it.
We're going to play at it. And then one day, we won't be able to anymore.
Do it.
To be honest.
And that's why I'm annoying and I push people to be honest and open with the people in their lives.
Thank you.
To find out.
Because if, I'm not saying it's true, but if you can't put a defibrillator into your relationship with your parents, if they simply don't or won't respond to you, When you are authentically who you are with them, with all the confusion, frustration, and affection, and fear, and all of that goes with that.
If you're not, if they simply won't or can't respond to who you are, and if they just oppose and reject who you are, well, they could live another 20 years, right?
And that's the choice that you face.
And it's not a choice anyone can make for anyone else, except to point out that it is a choice.
Right? It is a choice.
That if you try to be honest and open and vulnerable with people and talk to them about what you actually think and feel.
Fuck, why is that so hard for the planet?
Talk to people about what you actually think and feel.
Everybody on the planet says, be honest, tell the truth.
Well, this is what I'm feeling. This is my honesty.
I'm telling the truth. Right?
Everybody says, tell the truth.
Everybody says, be honest.
But then the moment you actually are honest and tell the truth, everybody freaks out and their heads explode, right?
And if you can be honest and you can resurrect or jumpstart or defibrillate this relationship with your parents and with other people, fantastic!
I'm thrilled when that stuff happens.
But if you can't, then it's just important to be conscious of the choice about how you're spending your short time with this amazing gift of life,
right? And if you do surround yourself with people that you cannot be honest with, You don't get to stay honest forever, in my opinion and experience.
And so what happens when we...
Like when I tried to be honest with...
I didn't try. When I was honest with my mother repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly...
And I got, you know, evasions and rejection and avoidance and attacks and angers and thrown things.
And I just continued. Just fucking hung in there, gritted my teeth, and would continue to be honest.
When it turned out to be impossible, the reason...
This has nothing to do with your parents.
This is just a story, right, about my mom.
But the reason that I actually stopped seeing my mother...
Was not because I couldn't be honest with her.
It's because she showed me the inevitable future of not being honest.
Which is that honesty had become impossible.
Do you see the difference?
It's not because I couldn't be honest with her.
It's because she showed me what the future of remaining dishonest was.
And that chilled the very nuts of my groin.
Right, you don't want to be where your parents are in 20 or 30 years.
Thanks.
Thank you.
With a kid who has to screw his courage to the very sticking point, just sit down to be honest and tell you what he or she thinks and feels, right?
Right, right.
Don't become that person.
I mean, I'm doing so much, you know, just for myself.
I'm doing so much to ensure that my daughter and my wife and anybody else who's in my life, who I care about and who cares about me, can talk to me about what they think and feel.
Because I've seen the alternative, and to me, it just looks exactly the same as a kind of living death.
And I don't know how to stay in conformity with people you can't be honest with and retain your own capacity for honesty.
I think it's a muscle.
I wish I did know, right?
It would be a whole lot easier to be successful as a philosopher if I could figure that one out.
I just, I can't figure it out.
Nobody I know has been able to either, so...
Anyway, tell me what...
Sorry, I know I obviously haven't been podcasting as much lately, got some stuff backed up, but tell me what you think about what I'm saying.
Yeah, it does feel that way.
The longer things go unsaid, the harder they are to say.
I did speak with my parents earlier this year, and I would consider it You know, very, very beginner conversation, but a fairly successful one, but then I just sort of left it.
And do you know why you left it?
Because it was really hard to do.
Like you were saying, it took like, you know, I broke down.
You know, it was really emotional.
It was really...
It took a lot of...
No, that was hard to do, to prepare for and to do.
But what about afterwards?
Right, why did you leave it?
And look, I think you may have done entirely the right thing, if that means anything, in this context.
I think you may have done entirely the right thing in leaving it.
I'm just wondering if you know why you've left it.
I always just assumed because it was really draining.
Why was it draining?
Because it was like a muscle that's never been exercised, you know, that's never really been a part of our relationship.
Right. And so it was sort of not something that was Terribly comfortable.
It was kind of something we hadn't done before, so my head got really hot.
And you said earlier this year, sorry to interrupt, when was it?
I guess it would have been probably April sometime.
Right, so what, four months ago sort of thing, three or four months ago?
Yeah, a few months ago.
All right.
And what have they done with that since?
Not you, they.
Right, right. They've been calling me more often, and...
You still talk about the weather, right?
Most of the time. Yeah, yeah, sorry.
Yeah, yeah. No, don't.
Hey, if I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong.
I'm just trying to echo what you said, but I might have misunderstood, right?
I get this feeling like my mom wants to initiate something, but she doesn't know how.
Not that it has to be my book, but has she read any books like RTR or anything on emotional self-expression?
I mean, how committed is she to this new thing, right?
You're right. Yeah, I don't know that...
Well, I can guarantee she hasn't read RTR. Yeah, and it doesn't have to be my book.
I mean, it could have... No, no, no, I just...
I'm just saying, right?
If you said, you know, we want to learn Mandarin together, right?
I want to learn Mandarin with you.
I'm already way ahead. I'd like you to catch up.
Then she should at some point take out a book on Mandarin if she's committed to learning Mandarin with you, right?
Right. And if she hasn't, then she should say to you, I'm not going to do the Mandarin thing.
I said I was, but it looks really tough.
I'm not going to do it, right? Right.
No, no, I think you...
Raise an excellent point there.
Because you left it because you're trying to see what they're doing with it, right?
I guess I kind of hoped the ball would bounce back.
Yeah, more than hopes.
It's a desperate hope, isn't it?
I mean, how amazingly wonderful would it be if when we tried to bring real truth and honesty to the people in our lives, that they, you know, We don't have to match our level of intensity and effort, but, you know, throw us a bone, right?
You know, give me some reason to believe that we actually had that conversation.
Right.
Doesn't it sort of feel like we had that conversation and now it's back to business as usual and everyone's kind of hoping it was just a phase?
What's different now than before you had this conversation?
You know, like, I want to say, like, it seems like when she says, so how are things, it seems more genuine, but it's still the same sort of question.
That's pretty thin gruel, right?
Right, right, right.
She's, you know, since then she's told me like I could You know, she'd like it if I could bring things up that are on my mind.
But... I guess I felt like I dropped the ball a little bit, too.
But... It hasn't been much progress since then.
And when you say much progress, what do you mean?
I feel like we're starting to talk about this, you're getting a bit vague again, right?
Well, it hasn't been. Right, yeah.
We haven't had a heart-to-heart since that one.
And if you were to, let's say that you decided to put full-tilt effort into it, right?
Full-tilt boogie and effort into it, right?
Let's say you decided that.
how long do you think it would take before you had the relationship that you really wanted if I just kept sort of pestering like with my concerns and my questions and Yeah, you know, if you just...
I'm going to bring this thing to life no matter what.
You just went full tilt boogie on instructing them on honesty and you were honest and open with them every time you were with them and so on.
If you went full tilt 150% into this as a project...
How long do you think it would take, if you had to guess, before it was no longer a project but a relationship, which you didn't have to manage and didn't have to fix and didn't have to instruct them on?
I would think, like, over a year.
Like, we don't live in the same town, but I guess I could do it over the phone.
So after a year of talking to them about this stuff, they would bring this stuff up, they would be proactive, they'd be open, they'd be honest, you'd have deep conversations whenever it was necessary or helpful or whatever, and there wouldn't need to be any more change that way.
You wouldn't need to manage that anymore.
Well, I don't know that it would just sort of be a perfect relationship.
But it's good, right?
As good as you could imagine.
And do you know why I'm skeptical about a year?
Because it took you a lot longer and you were probably much more proactive than they would be?
Well, no, I mean, plus I was sort of inventing the wheel as I was driving the car, so no, it's not anything to do with me.
How long have you been listening to FDR? Since podcast five.
Just so, like...
Three years? December of 2005, yeah.
So, why is that relevant?
Because it's taken me a long time.
To do what?
To basically start to want to turn the wheels.
To undo...
Yeah. And you have a lot less invested in stagnation or habits and so on than your parents do simply because you're younger and you also haven't had children.
So you realize if they were able to do it in a year, Right, right.
That's maybe unrealistic.
Well, shit, I'll give them the podcast and I'll become their fans, right?
No, seriously. I was like, shit, you people take it away.
I'll go back to work in IT because you all are doing amazing things.
It took me 20 years.
It took, you know, three years.
But you guys, in a year?
Wow. Right, right.
I guess...
I guess I wasn't thinking that would be like the perfect relationship, but a much more workable one that I think I would be more satisfied with and that we could sort of work into a nicer relationship.
You know, I don't know that they would be able to assimilate all this information full on and Yeah, you're right.
One year isn't really that long.
I mean, it does sound realistic to me.
Certainly anyone else can type in the chat window if they think it is.
It doesn't sound realistic to me, particularly since you had this conversation four months ago or three months ago, and there's been no progress in particular other than a possible change in tone on one question, which is not a personal evolution of a radical kind, right? Right.
I think I detect something there.
Yeah. And I'm just...
Again, I have no idea what you should do with your relationship with your parents.
I really don't.
I mean, I never tell people what to do with their relationships.
I only point out the moral clarities as I see them.
But... But I think the decision really doesn't have anything fundamentally to do with your parents.
I think that the decision has to do with what kind of life do you want?
What kind of relationships do you want?
And if you want conformity and so on, I'd really suggest, like, don't listen to FDR. I mean, other than, you know, maybe I make an occasional joke that's amusing or, you know, you enjoy hearing this flex of spittle hit the microphone from time to time or whatever, right? It's entertaining, right?
Right. But I think that's a decision that you need to make.
I think that it is a decision, I think, that you've made kind of deep down, which is why there's a strong degree of anxiety.
Because if you wanted the conformity, you wouldn't feel the anxiety.
I mean, that's why people are conformists, because it's less anxiety, right?
Right.
Right.
It's like why some people just get all their teeth ripped out because they don't have to worry about getting tooth decay, right?
Right.
So, once you can figure out what kind of life you want, do you have, of course, some idea at least of how to achieve it?
Like, if you're going to go for, like, full-speed honesty, damn the torpedoes, right?
Which is my suggestion, but, you know, it's everybody's choice.
Then you're just going to do it.
And you're not going to do it for your parents.
And you're not going to do it...
You're not even going to do it for the you that is.
You're going to do it for the you that will be, right?
Right. Right, like we don't put down a cheeseburger for the heart attack we're having now, but for the heart attack we don't want to have in a couple of years, right?
Right. But we do it for the future.
I mean, we quit smoking for the lungs of the future, right?
We lose weight for the cholesterol of the future, right?
Right. And so you will be doing it because it will be the bridge that you build with sweat, blood and tears to the self of the future, right?
Because the degree of honesty that you have in your relationships will be the degree of honesty that you have with your wife, your future wife.
It will be the degree of honesty that you have with your future children.
And that's what you'll do it for, I mean, in my opinion, right?
And you don't have to do any of it.
You don't have to do any of it.
You really don't. Because if you do it from a have to, it, you know, well, you know, right?
Yeah, I'm just swapping boys.
Yeah, that's a great way of putting it.
I don't want to keep you up all night.
Well, it's not all night for you, but was this useful?
Did it give you some stuff to work with maybe in terms of anxiety?
The bigger and deeper the anxiety, the bigger and deeper the life issue that is occurring, right?
I mean, go big, go deep, go...
Go. Existential. Go.
Future. Go. True self. Go.
False self. Grow. Authenticity.
Grow. Go. Go.
Integrity. That's...
The greater the anxiety, the more you're going to want to distract yourself with cars and shit like that, right?
But I'm telling you, drill deep and you will get to the core of it.
And when you get to the core of it, the decision is, in my experience, is made.
We don't will decisions.
We unearth decisions.
Right. Right.
Yeah. There's no...
There's no way it was losing sleep for two weeks over an oil change.
It just doesn't make sense.
No, it really doesn't. But I think in this context, whether it's this or something else, equally deep, this is the area, the level that I would suggest working at.
Okay. I really appreciate it, Steph.
You've given me a lot to think about and to bring to my next therapy session, I think.
Right, absolutely. And you keep us posted about how it goes.
And I know it's really stressful to have these calls, right?
And I know it's a lot of anxiety.
I hope that it was not too bad as we got into it.
But I really, really do.
I mean, I know how tough it is to do this kind of stuff.
I really respect the courage that it takes to do that and to make the call and so on, and the courage to tell me last night, sucks to be you, let's do it tomorrow.
But no, I really do respect it.
It is a very difficult and challenging thing to do, particularly with all of these people hanging on the call and so on.
So I just, you know, massive kudos to you.
This is... This is the kind of conversations that people need to have, in my opinion, for the world to become a better place.
And I just really, really respect the overcoming of the anxiety that it took to make the call.
Right. Well, thanks.
I appreciate you saying that.
Yeah. It's very nice to be able to talk to you and to have you give me a little perspective on some of the things that are going on.
And I just... I just really appreciate it, Stefan.
Thank you so much. You're welcome.
And listen, I hugely appreciate you hanging in there for the three years of these calls, so I appreciate that.
Keep us posted, and I certainly would be very interested to hear if you get a chance how it goes with the therapist, because I think that's a fantastic step.
Okay. Thank you so much.
Bye, man. Have a great night. I will keep you posted.
Okay. Thanks. Thanks again.
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