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July 16, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:39:40

1415 Shyness - A Conversation

Some thoughts on how it arises, and how to solve it.

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Time	Text
	Hello? Hey!
	Hello? Hello!
	Hello! Can you hear me okay?
	Hi, guys! Yes, I can.
	Excellent. Alright.
	Thou summonest me.
	Yes. Well, I wanted to see if you could help me out with...
	Pretty much my shyness that I've had for a really long time.
	Right, right. Oh, sorry, G, we were just on a call.
	I guess it went through. Are you on Skype?
	Oh. The internet must have dropped again.
	Hang on. Sorry, go ahead.
	Shyness. An excellent, excellent, excellent topic.
	Yeah, it's something that I've always been really...
	Reserved and just very kind of quiet in groups.
	I kind of just went along with it for a while and was just kind of dealt with it.
	But it's been really stopping me, kind of holding me back from doing a lot of things that I really want to do now.
	One is participating more on the board and Just like with other people from FDR, other stuff is like...
	I see people like Colleen and Jason, to name a few, post YouTube videos that just look like a lot of fun.
	And I'm like, oh, I want to do that so much.
	That looks like a really great time.
	You mean videos that they themselves have done?
	Yeah, that they make of just doing different various things.
	And it's like, oh, that looks like a lot of fun, but I haven't done a single one.
	I've been trying to write music for a while now, and while I start writing, and then I just start kind of like, no, this isn't very good.
	This isn't going to be good at all.
	It's really hard for me to get over that.
	I don't know if it's over or it is right, but to get to where I can go and do the things that I want to do.
	And I seem to be very good at thinking about things that I want to do, but not going and doing them.
	Right. Alright.
	That's the end of the introduction?
	Yes. Okay, good.
	I just want to make sure I don't start talking over people when they're just getting warmed up.
	Okay, so let me just make sure that I understand the rough parameters.
	That there's a kind of self-expression that you would like to have more freedom to pursue that you feel self-conscious or inhibited to pursue at the moment.
	Is that close?
	Is that off? I'm trying to make sure I understand.
	No, that's right on.
	And even though it comes up for me like It's not only in these self-expression times, but even in things more mundane.
	Something I've always had a problem with, for example, is if I'm in a store and I need information from somebody working there about something I came to buy or just look at or whatever, I have a really hard time...
	I feel really scared and a lot of anxiety about asking them.
	For information or help finding something.
	And what I've done before is I'll end up pretending to look at other things in the store or just trying to find it on my own.
	I'd rather spend 10 minutes looking around on my own to try and find it than just ask somebody and have them take me to it.
	And even if they come up and are like, oh, do you need help?
	I'll be like, no, I'm okay.
	And then they'll leave and I'll be like, ah, but I do need help.
	And I'll kind of spend a couple more minutes trying to find it, and then maybe I'll go and be like, actually, do you have this?
	And then go with that.
	So it's not only with things where it could be...
	Because I kind of feel like with things like writing music, I don't really know if it counts, but it sort of seems like those could be more vulnerable positions, because I'm like...
	Like if I'm making music or something and I want to show people that, or like a video, then it's like, it's like if they, I guess I'm like scared of them, like people like rejecting it or just thinking that I'm like stupid or something like that.
	Right. But it seems like that's even like less of a thing with, although I have the same kind of thoughts with like just asking somebody like, hey, where are the iPods or something like that.
	Right, right, right.
	You finished the next bit, right?
	I just want to make sure I'm not interrupting you again.
	Okay, because with shy people, you can start talking and they may not have finished, but they won't say anything.
	Yeah, I'm good for this one.
	Okay, well, I mean, I've struggled a lot with shyness.
	And so I'll just give you my two cents worth of thoughts, it's all.
	Nonsense and subjective thoughts and experience, and if it fits and is useful, fantastic, right?
	My usual caveats, I won't give any more, but I just wanted to remind you of that.
	These are just my thoughts on the subject.
	Now, when you are in the store and you want to find an iPod or something, and you think of going up to ask someone, there's two things that I've...
	Experience in that realm with regards to shyness.
	Maybe there's more than something else that you experience.
	But for me, it usually falls into one of two categories.
	And one of those categories is...
	I'm concerned that the guy's going to hang around me.
	Right? So if I say, where are the iPods?
	And he's like... He won't just say, two miles down and to your left.
	Which I would be relatively okay with.
	No, no. What he's going to do is he's going to say...
	I'll come with you, right?
	And then he'll try and sell me something, and then he'll ask me what I want, and then he'll talk, and then he'll want me to buy, you know what I mean?
	Like, then I've got myself into kind of a quicksand, if that makes any sense.
	Yeah. So that's one aspect.
	The other aspect, which I feel a little bit less of, and just because that just sort of feels like work.
	You know, every time people come to me in a store, you know, hey, I'm just browsing, you know.
	I ward them off with my child and say, she just farted.
	Can you hold it for a sec? Or something.
	So small talk is work in a lot of ways.
	And I just don't like it particularly.
	So is it something like that?
	Or is it that you feel that they will look down at you or they will think that you should know?
	Or is it something more hostile?
	Or is it just you just don't want someone tagging along and trying to sell you something or something like that?
	Well, I definitely don't want them tagging along at all.
	And I usually, like, I just don't...
	If I need something, I want them to just...
	Like, ideally, they should just be like, it's over there, and then, like, that's it.
	I don't want anything else. Because I also don't really like the small talk very much.
	But I think that my...
	Bigger than that, though, is it is a little more hostile.
	Like, I think that they're going to...
	Like, just think that I'm, like...
	Like stupid or I should know or like I'm just like lame or something.
	It's hard for me to get exactly what it is but I know that it's very negative and I really don't want them to think that about me.
	Even though I also know that it's like, but I don't even know these people and why would they think that and why do I care if they think that anyway?
	Right, okay. I think it is definitely more of the hostile one, which is what keeps me from actually asking them.
	Right, right.
	Okay, okay. So let's...
	First of all, I think one of the things that compounds shyness is there is the concern about the interaction between Or the hostility of the other person in the interaction.
	That's one thing. And then, if I understand what you're saying correctly, then what happens is you say, it's stupid for me to even have this fear of this.
	You know what I mean? It's like you feel the anxiety of possible hostility or put-downs or somebody looking down their nose at you or something.
	Or as P.G. O'Rourke once famously wrote about French waitress, that they serve you as if they are peeing on you from a great height, which I thought was a really great phrase.
	But then, is there then another aspect where you say, it's ridiculous for me to even feel this way, what do I care?
	And you sort of get, in a sense, even more mad at yourself?
	Yeah, yeah, I do definitely have that.
	Because it's kind of like, well, because part of me is like, no, don't ask.
	We'll just find it. We're going to be okay here.
	And then the other part's like, no, well, I mean, let's just go ask.
	It'll be a lot faster, and I'll save time, and it'll be easier.
	And they just go back and forth at each other.
	It's like, well, no, I don't want to do that.
	And it's like, well, why not?
	What possible reason do you have for this?
	That's just ridiculous.
	Yeah, so you get all up inside your own head, right?
	Yeah, exactly. And it doesn't really ever get me.
	Eventually, I'll either just find it, or the one will win, and I'll go and talk to them.
	And then it'll be like, well, see, what was the big deal?
	Like, nothing even was going on.
	And then that doesn't really go anywhere either, though.
	Right. But, I mean, it compounds, it escalates in terms of negative or critical judgments of yourself, right?
	Yeah. And then, you know, well, what's wrong with me?
	You know, I had all these fears and none of them came true, and yet next time it's going to be the same and all that kind of stuff, right?
	Yeah, right, exactly.
	Right. No, I... I understand.
	And I think you'd be actually kind of shocked at how many people would have experienced exactly the same thing.
	I mean, I think you'd be shocked.
	And just to remind people to mute if you're not talking.
	So I think that's...
	First of all, you're not alone, right?
	I mean, in being alone, you're not alone, right?
	And I think that's... Because what this does is it kind of puts you in a monosphere of one, right?
	Like in your own brain biosphere.
	You know, like it really does separate you from people around you because you're really wrapped up in having a big debate with yourself and self-challenging and self-attacking and so on around a statement like where's the iPod, right?
	So you're kind of really up in your own brain cavity, right?
	Yeah. Right, okay.
	I'm going to try a slightly different approach here.
	And we'll see if it works.
	You can be the catapult guinea pig, and we'll see if you'll clear the wall.
	Okay. Well, and this is not, I think, too surprising.
	I mean, everything we do, we do for some kind of reason.
	There's some reason why we do everything.
	It's not predetermined or anything, but there's some reason.
	There's a cost and benefit, right?
	Right. And when we have a habit that is interfering with something that we want to do in this life, like find an iPod, make a video, write some music, share the music, whatever it is, when we have something that is interfering with where we want to go,
	what we want to do in life, what happens is we focus on what's in the way We don't focus on what we get from it being in the way, what the benefits are of it being in the way, if that makes any sense at all.
	Right. So I'm focusing on what is in my way rather than what I'm getting by having this in my way?
	Right. What does this allow you What does the shyness allow you to avoid?
	And I'll give you something more concrete, because that's like a really annoying, abstract, stupid question.
	So, what does it allow you to...
	Let me give you something more concrete.
	So, if you approached the world like people were friendly, let's just...
	We're going to use absolutes, right?
	So, you know, just in general, we understand it's more nuanced than that, but let's just take the absolutes.
	So if you were to approach the world, if you were to go to the Best Buy and just, you know, realize or recognize, let's say, or believe, let's say, that the clerks were, like, happy and, you know, to be there and they wanted to help you and, you know, by asking them, you were helping them.
	Because I'll tell you, man, I worked retail when I was a teenager.
	I worked in a hardware store and, oh man, when it was slow, we just died.
	We just... Because you have to look busy, right?
	That's the worst thing about retail.
	Look busy, right? You can't just sort of sit in a hammock until someone comes.
	And literally when someone...
	And we all liked cutting keys because it would keep you busy for like five or ten minutes and you could shave some keys down and, you know, whatever, right?
	And so there would be like six or seven of us in this hardware store and someone would come in jingling some keys ahead of me and like five guys would die over him.
	Like, yay! You know, I don't have to...
	Wonder from aisle to aisle pretending to wipe something that's been wiped already five times today and you know like it just had something to do like I was really like we had these glass shavings you know you cut the glass you get these I would love like even though I did wear like five pairs of heavy gloves and always ended up cutting myself anyway I think I would be happy to break that glass down and dispose of it in the garbage because I would just be so bored you know and of course in a In a hardware store,
	everything comes in boxes. I could be downstairs breaking down the boxes.
	I'd be downstairs breaking down the boxes, happy as a pig in shit, because I'm busy for two hours.
	It's really boring, but it's not as boring as being upstairs pretending to work.
	You may actually be doing these guys a favor.
	If you went into the store not thinking about you, because that's the dark side of shyness.
	The dark side of shyness is, and I use this term completely non-judgmentally and of course as a complete amateur, it's kind of narcissistic because all you're doing is thinking about you.
	Right, yeah, and I've noticed that before too because it's just like every thought that I have about the situation is just how I'm perceived and how they're going to think about me when I'm gone and how...
	It's all about me and my experience and everything that's going on with me.
	Right, and I don't mean this in any pathological way.
	It's just a way of using the word that I think...
	I remember that everything was about me.
	I couldn't get out of my shyness.
	It's like you're locked inside your own brain biosphere.
	You just can't get out.
	It's like... You know, if you were really mystical, or sort of from the dawn of the species, and you believed that the world around you was a morality play put on for you by a god, or something like that, right?
	Or like Catholics believe this, you know, like, I don't know, some Catholic kid masturbates, and then he's in a car with his dad, and his dad's car hits a bird or something, and he's like, it's because I masturbated.
	Do you know what I mean? Like, it becomes all about that kid and his hairy palms or whatever, right?
	Right. And...
	We all have that from time to time, right?
	So if you're going to get married and it's raining, you feel like, why is this happening to me?
	And the rain, you know, it's, you know, does God not want me to get married and so on, right?
	But there's something kind of about...
	It's a kind of mysticism about it, right?
	Like, the world is all about you.
	Like, some guy is, you go into the store, and he's going to sit there and look down upon you...
	It's not going to be like, well, he just had a fight with his girlfriend that morning, and he's got a headache, and he really, really wants a coffee, and he thought he was going to be an actor, and, you know, like, it's never about that other person.
	They are just part of a morality play in your world called People Will Put Me Down or something, right?
	But it's not recognizing other people as sovereign and separate individuals, perhaps with their own shyness, perhaps with their own problems, well, certainly with their own problems and their own desires and so on, right?
	Right. Yeah, I can see that.
	So if you went into a store...
	And look, I'm not saying you snap your fingers and do this.
	I just, you know, in your mind's eye, right?
	If you go into a store, we'll call it the Best Buy, and you want to find an iPod, and you said, well, I'm sure this guy would be really happy to help me, right?
	I mean, that's what he's here for.
	We assume he likes electronics.
	We assume that he likes helping people.
	And if he hates his job, well...
	I mean, there's not much I could, but if you went in just saying, I'm sure he'll be happy to help me.
	What would that be like for you?
	What would it cost you?
	Because it's got to cost you something, otherwise you wouldn't hold on to this, right?
	Right. I'm feeling kind of anxious right now, but I'm not, I'm having a hard, I can't, Because my initial thought was just, well, that sounds okay then.
	Like if I know everybody is there...
	Yeah, but then you felt a little anxious, right?
	Yeah, and then I started feeling a little anxious, but I'm having a hard time getting the thoughts with it.
	Can I tell you the image or the thought that popped into my head, and you can tell me if it makes any sense?
	Uh-huh. It's almost like you feel...
	That you're a ghost.
	And if you're not focusing on yourself, you will disappear.
	In other words, if you focused on other people, you would disappear.
	Hmm. You can tell me if that makes no sense at all and we'll try something else, right? It's what popped into my head.
	I don't know if it comes from me or you or somewhere else, right?
	It's just what popped into my head.
	Right. It's not...
	A picture that I got when I tried to think about going into a store like that was...
	I come in and I'm kind of smiling and I wave to the person when I come in or something...
	I kind of feel like I'm bigger, though, than I would be if I'm not saying anything, rather than disappearing.
	Okay, good. Fantastic.
	Let's go with your facts rather than my theory.
	I'm supposed to be an empiricist, so let's do that.
	Okay. So you go in and you're big.
	Tell me a little bit more about that.
	Well, I feel like I would come in and I would be like, Hey, what's up?
	Like, wave or something.
	And I'd be like, kind of smiling.
	And just be like, hey, where can I find this thing?
	And they'd be like, oh, it's over there.
	And I'd be like, alright. And then I'd just go and get it.
	Sounds like you're auditioning as a solid gold dancer.
	Anyway, go on. Yeah, but I just, I kind of, like, I feel like I would just, I would have more, like, presence there than just kind of, like, come in with, like, headphones in and just kind of I sneak around past everybody and slither behind the booths and try and figure out where I need to go.
	And you know, the funny thing is that you do that partly because you don't want to draw the attention of the sales clerks, but all they do is think you're a shoplifter, right?
	He's coming in, he's not talking to anyone, he's slithering around, he's keeping his head down.
	Anyway, so just point that out.
	Okay, so you get the feeling of bigness, which is great.
	But that's not a cost, right?
	No, that's not a cost at all.
	And the reason we're focusing on the costs, right, like why...
	Sorry, the secondary gains you get from avoiding that is because we understand that it's nice to have the option not to be shy, right?
	It's nice to have that confidence in other people and your ability to deal with stuff or whatever, right?
	So what does the staying small get you?
	What does the worrying about yourself get you?
	Because shyness is kind of like an insult to other people.
	Like they're going to get you, right?
	They're gonna put you down. Yeah, I'm just kind of assuming that they're gonna just get me, just attack me for no real reason.
	I'm not giving any I'm like actively mistrusting everybody or distrusting everybody.
	Right, so it's kind of bigoted, right?
	I mean, it's not racist unless you include all carbon-based human life forms.
	And using harsh words, and I appreciate your patience with that, it's not, of course, because I think this has anything to do with your essential nature, but it's hard to see what shyness looks like from the outside because shyness is so inward-looking, right?
	Right, yeah. I think it's helpful, so I appreciate it.
	Right, and of course, if you go into the Department of Motor Vehicles, we can all understand this probably would be the response, but you go to Best Buy, there's no way they're keeping a rude greeter or a rude floor person around, right?
	There's just no way.
	Right. Like, I like Best Buy quite a lot, because they'll take anything back.
	I mean, it's amazing if you lose manuals and CDs.
	Eh, fine, fuck it, right?
	But I've gone for years, and I've never once had a rude clerk.
	Right? Because they just can't afford it.
	Because, you know, one bad customer, they're aware that over the course of my life, I might spend $20,000 at Best Buy, or $10,000, I don't know, but some amount of money, right?
	Right, and if you go in and have like a bad...
	Well, next to Best Buy is Future Shop.
	Next to Future Shop is Staples.
	Next to Staples is 2001 Audio Video.
	Just go to the next place.
	They pound this into their people.
	And they tell them this exactly.
	And I know that because I've had these conversations with employees as well.
	The guy who's walking in is $10,000.
	It's $20,000. And it could be even more.
	We don't know if this guy's running a business that's going to need a whole bunch of stuff in six months.
	We don't know if he writes a column for the local newspaper.
	We don't know if he's about to win the lottery.
	We don't know any of these things.
	And we don't know if he's the guy who in his family buys stuff for everyone.
	So the amount of money that's hanging off you as a customer when you go into a retail store is enormous.
	And particularly in a recession.
	People are like, can I rub your feet sir?
	Can I wax your car?
	Because it's a recession.
	So they're desperate.
	So it's not only is it sort of a pre-built prejudicial insult towards everyone else, but it's also not cognizant of the basic reality that this is a free market store, right?
	Right. Which again, you're free market loosely, but it's certainly, I can guarantee you that what you're feeling did not come out of an adult voluntary free market interaction like a store.
	It wasn't like stores put you, like store clerks put you in Bags of burlap and beat you with phone books when you were, you know, 20 or whatever, right?
	It's got to be something earlier and more primitive that you're taking and putting onto the world as a whole, right?
	Right. Well, the thought that I keep having is that it's safer if I'm smaller.
	Like, there's less, like, exposed, like, less that anybody can do anything with against me.
	Okay, good, good. Okay, so you feel safer if you're smaller.
	And another way of putting that is that if you're more confident and more outgoing and more friendly, you feel increased risk and anxiety of...
	You said people using things against you?
	Yes. Right, and again, that's not an empirical thing, right?
	Because people will use shyness against you.
	Because if you're avoiding someone, like if you, again, to take a stereotypical example, right, so you go to some electronics store, there's a lot of minorities who work there, right?
	Right. Right, so some Indian guy, some Pakistani guy, whatever, right?
	And if you sort of go in there as a white guy and you're like, I'm just going to avoid all the clerks, they might think you're a racist.
	I'm not saying they would.
	You understand, right? I'm not saying...
	Right, no, yeah, I could see how that could...
	But it could be, right?
	They're going to end up with something against you if shyness does not stop people from having something against you, so to speak, right?
	Or they might think, well, it's just kind of rude or just insecure or whatever, right?
	Yeah, because they could even... They'll sniff their own armpits.
	It's like, did I remember to deodorize this morning?
	Right. Right. Because it even just changes what...
	It doesn't eliminate things that...
	Even if my...
	It's because I don't want them to think negative things about me or something.
	It just changes what they would think if I'm just quiet and withdrawn and sneaking around or whatever.
	Because they'd just be like, that guy's weird, or maybe he's stealing something.
	Right, right, right.
	It just changes the possibility of what they could be thinking about.
	It doesn't eliminate it.
	Right, and they may be thinking...
	What a shy person.
	I'm so sorry, that must be very tough.
	Like, they could be thinking very compassionate things as well, obviously, right?
	I mean, we don't want to sort of go into that place where they automatically assume you're a racist thief or something, right?
	But so they could be feeling like, wow, you know, that shyness is really tough.
	You know, that guy must have a very tough time with this, that and the other, right?
	And of course, your anxiety can, for many people, spread to become their anxiety as well, right?
	Because if you go up to someone and you ask the question, like they're about to hit you with a saucepan, I mean, I'm exaggerating, of course, right?
	But they then are going to feel, like, anxious, right?
	Is there someone behind me who's about to hit both of us with a saucepan, right?
	Like, why are you so scared, right?
	The anxiety may travel to them, right?
	So what is it that they use against?
	They use against.
	Tell me a little bit about that.
	Again, we'll just go back to the paradigm of the shyness and the secondary gain.
	So what is it that the people are going to use against you if you're open, strong, and friendly and positive?
	I'm just getting really vague thoughts, like just the one that has just any weakness that I show or have.
	That seems like a really unsatisfying answer.
	But that's just the start of an answer, right?
	So go on. Right. Well, it just seems like anything that if I misspeak about something or if...
	I feel like maybe if they even just know more than me, I feel like they'll be like, oh, this guy doesn't know anything about this stuff.
	And if I actually come up and I'm talking with them about something rather than just trying to do it on my own, then they now know that I don't know about something.
	And so they can...
	Now they have something that they can look at and be like, this guy doesn't know this.
	And that makes him not good.
	Yeah, I'm feeling really foggy right now.
	I'm having a hard time getting my...
	No, that's good. That's good. From zero to fog in half an hour is good, right?
	So it means that we're getting close to something, right, if there's fog, right?
	Yeah. Okay, so, I mean, I'm not even going to bother telling you, of course, how irrational that is, because you know that, right?
	I mean, you go to some store and you say, where are the iPods?
	Of course you're not going to know where the iPods are.
	I mean, obviously, right? I mean, of course, right?
	No one's going to say. And there's very few people who would be not insane who would say, I am going to lord it over you because you're coming to buy an iPod and I'm stuck in a store telling people where the iPods are, so I'm superior, right?
	Do you understand? Like, that's...
	You know, that's kind of crazy, right?
	That's like, you know, you go to the washroom in Mexico and there's some 900-year-old guy there who hands you the towels, right?
	And will make change for you if it's, you know.
	And you say, well, can I have change?
	And he says, I'm superior to you because you're on vacation in Mexico and I'm making change in the toilet and you need me, right?
	I mean, there's no one who would, you know, lord that over you, right?
	Who would not be completely mental.
	And that seems really, like, I'm laughing.
	That seems really silly to me.
	And that's part of what also gets the attack going, the internal conflict going, because that's ridiculous.
	Right. And again, I know I said I wasn't going tonight.
	I was just pointing it out. James says, the comic bookstore guy in The Simpsons, right?
	When the nuclear weapon finally hits, he says, I've wasted my life.
	That's his statement, right?
	He's superior because he knows the history of the Hulk down to the last detail, whereas, you know, put him in a nightclub and suddenly it doesn't look so good to have that knowledge.
	Anyway, it doesn't really matter.
	So you understand, of course, that that's nuts, right?
	But you're not nuts, right?
	So the challenge is to figure out what you're gaining from this, right?
	What are you avoiding by staying small?
	So you walk into the store and you're like, hi, how's it going?
	Would you mind telling me where the iPods are, please?
	What does that cost you?
	You can picture it in your mind's eye, just going in and just saying, you know, fuck the bullshit I think of.
	I'm just going to go up and talk to this guy and be friendly.
	Because I know, I know that it's going to, right?
	What feelings come up in that situation?
	I have fear and...
	Well, let's just stay with the fear, if that's the main one that you're getting.
	Yeah, that's the big one that I'm getting.
	Okay, so we have something, which is obviously that...
	You are staying inside your own head, looking weird and kind of insulting people and being kind of considerably self-involved to avoid fear.
	And the fear is that, as you said, someone's going to use something against you, right?
	Right. Now, I'm going to go to your family, right?
	For some logical reasons, right?
	Obviously, right? I mean, obviously this didn't come about from Best Buy, right?
	Because Best Buy, you can turn and walk out.
	You can complain to the manager.
	You can do a whole bunch of different things, right?
	Right. So, it's when we're in a situation where we don't have the capacity to leave that these kinds of habits arise, right?
	I mean, the reason we go to the family when we talk about these or the reason I go to the family or I think it's a good idea is It's because these are not problems of volunteerism, right?
	Right. They're just not.
	Because it's impossible to think that you would repeatedly go back to a store month after month where some guy just looked down his nose at you and insulted you and made fun of you.
	It's incomprehensible that if you'd had a happy history as a kid...
	And just means happy enough, not perfect, right?
	That you would sit there and say, I'm going to go back to that store where the guy insults me.
	You just would not have that habit.
	And you wouldn't develop that habit as an adult, right?
	So the reason we go back to the family is because the family is where, when we're children, for better or for worse, we don't have the option to leave.
	I mean, I'm seeing this so unbelievably clearly.
	With Isabella. I mean, she's really stuck with me as a dad.
	There's nothing she can do, really.
	Especially, there's nothing whatsoever she could do.
	She can't even speak.
	She's really stuck. I had her for four hours this afternoon while Christina was at work and And, you know, we did some stuff that was useful, some stuff that was fun, some stuff that was practical.
	But she's really, I mean, she's really stuck with me in a way that when you go to Best Buy, you're just not, right?
	And that's, you know, because she's stuck with me, I feel I need to up my game, right?
	And be even better because she didn't have a choice for all that.
	So I want to, as I've said before, I want to sort of parent as if she had the choices of all the dads, she'd still choose me, right?
	That's sort of the goal, right? But the reason we go back to the family is these kinds of habits...
	Can only develop in a situation where you can't leave.
	Because otherwise, you would have just left the situation, right?
	And by the situation, I don't mean the family.
	I mean that particular, whatever nerve was rubbed this raw, that this habit continues, right?
	Right. Does that make any sense?
	Yeah. Yeah. It does.
	When I was kind of journaling about this stuff, I don't have a lot of memories from my younger childhood when I was living with my biological mom.
	A lot of my memories are when I actually moved in with my dad and my stepmom.
	This is one of the things I was having trouble with, too, because I have this memory, and I'm very aware of it, but I don't know how to work with it.
	What it is is pretty much since, like from, because I moved in with them when I was seven or eight, and like when I would get up in the morning to go to school, if I was, and this was like a repeated thing, but if I was feeling like sick and I needed, like I felt like I had, I should stay home because I just wasn't feeling up to it in any manner at all.
	My dad would leave for work earlier in the morning and my mom would still be asleep because she had to go to work After I was already left for school.
	And I would have to go and wake her up and ask her if I could stay home from school that day.
	And what I remember, almost every single time I would go to their room and stand just outside of the doorway so that if she woke up and looked, there was no sign that I was actually there.
	And I would just, like, my heart would be pounding and I would be feeling very scared.
	I would have the same kind of, like, thing, like, just, like, wake her up, you need to stay home, but you have to get permission.
	And also, like, no, like, don't do that at all.
	And I would go back and forth and then eventually...
	Sorry, I mean, I apologize.
	I just lost a little bit of track and I want to make sure that I'm following.
	So you would wake up and you wouldn't want to go to...
	But you wouldn't want to go to school because you were ill or unwell and you would have to ask permission from your stepmom, is that right?
	Yes. And your stepmom would be out in the hallway not indicating that she was there?
	I'm just trying to, sorry, just that part.
	Oh yeah, okay. She would be sleeping in her bedroom.
	Right. And I would be in the hallway because I had to wake her up because she would still be sleeping by the time I left for school during a normal day.
	Why would she still be sleeping?
	Yeah. Because, like, my school started at, like, 7.15 and she didn't have to go to work until, like, 9.
	Oh, okay. Okay, got it.
	And why would your father not be able to make the decision about whether you could stay home?
	My dad would go to work at, like, 5.
	Oh, so there was, like, a gap where you just would have no parents who could make that decision for you.
	Yeah, like, and so I would have to, right, and I couldn't, because of where my dad worked, he only had a pager, you couldn't, like, call him, so.
	Yeah, no, I understand. I mean, that can certainly happen, right?
	So, okay, so then you have this decision, you've got to wake your stepmom and tell her, you know, is it okay if I, oh, ask her, is it okay if I stay home, I'm not feeling well, right?
	Right. And how would that go when you would have to do it?
	And that would be where I would be in the hall outside of the door, so that if she woke up before I had tried to ask her, she wouldn't see me there, and I would be feeling very scared just standing outside of their bedroom, feeling really, really scared to wake her up and ask her.
	And she would...
	She would always act...
	When I finally did wake her up, every single time she would accuse me of lying or faking about it and be very kind of vicious with the way she handled me.
	She would use really harsh tones and just be really mean...
	And I would just be like, but I'm really not feeling well.
	And she's like, yeah, well, I'm sure.
	How convenient for you to not be feeling well today.
	And I would just be like, well, can I just stay home?
	And she would say, yeah, fine.
	But I'm going to tell your dad, and you better not go on the computer or play video games, or I better not find out that you were doing any of this stuff.
	And then I would go back to bed, and that's how it would go.
	Sorry, go ahead. Well, and just something that I remember tonight when I was just kind of thinking about the stuff before the call.
	Like, I remember that would then...
	Because, like, I'm stuck at home now because I don't feel good and, like, TV in the middle of the day is terrible.
	And so I would want to play, like, video games because I can just sit on the couch, like, completely inert and move a joystick.
	So I was like, this doesn't make any sense to me.
	So I would play games, but she would...
	When she would come home, she would check everything to make sure it wasn't moved around.
	So I actually remembered this today that I hadn't remembered before, that I would mental image of the layout of everything and check the dust around the systems and then carefully lift it out of place so that I could put it back into place before.
	It was like a video game just to play the video game.
	Right, yeah. It was like, I have to remember how everything is so I can make it exactly like it was before they come home.
	And were you faking at times?
	There was maybe like one or two times, but it...
	I mean, you understand.
	I don't have any particular problem with it.
	I mean, Lord knows we all need a mental health day from school when we're kids.
	I'm just curious. Right.
	There were days when I really wanted to, but just going through all of this didn't...
	It was almost as easier to go to school.
	Even sometimes when I was sick, I would just go because I didn't want to...
	Have to deal with all of this stuff.
	Because I would get calls during the day too with her like, what are you doing?
	You better be just sitting on the couch or something like that.
	And it was just the whole ordeal would just be all...
	It would just be so stressful.
	And even like...
	It was even worse days when...
	Because if I would start to feel better sometime in the middle of the day, so by the time they came home I wasn't feeling as bad or I was like more or less okay...
	Then it was like I was faking.
	That's how she saw it, was that I was faking the entire time, and now I feel so great.
	How convenient.
	You felt better when you wanted to play.
	Right, yeah. Okay.
	And did your father know about this, her approach to your illnesses this way?
	Yes. And he would...
	He was... He was more of, like, he kind of created more of an image of, like, the nicer guy while she was more strict.
	But he would still, like, back her up on, like, don't play video games and don't do any of this stuff and, like, appease your mother, you know, how she is.
	Like, that kind of stuff.
	But he definitely knew.
	And he would...
	Like, I got, like, banned from, like, using the computer or something because she found out I was on the computer during the day and he would come and say, well, you can't use it for three days now or something like that because you lied to us and stayed home and used the computer.
	Yeah, again, I mean, I just tell you my perspective as a parent, right?
	And I can say that annoyingly now, right, as...
	It's almost seven months.
	Look, almost seven months.
	I'm an expert, right? But this is my sort of thoughts.
	How old were you when your dad got remarried?
	I was, I think, six or seven.
	I was six or seven. If Christina died, right, and I ended up getting remarried, And I found out that Isabella was afraid to wake up my wife because of being spoken to harshly when she was sick.
	I mean, I tell you, I can't even comprehend that.
	It's hard because you lived that life, but I can't comprehend that.
	That I would sit there and say to Isabella, although you're sick and you're frightened to get permission to stay home because you feel unwell, and you almost will prefer to go to school where you might get other children sick and you won't learn anything because you're just feeling wretched and ill.
	If I knew that Isabella had to take a mental map of the room because she'd been commanded to sit on the couch and not watch TV or not play a video game, were you allowed to read?
	Yeah, I could read.
	You could read, okay, but just not play.
	If I felt that my wife, and these are just my feelings, right?
	So I don't know the whole complexity of your family, but if I felt that my wife viewed my darling daughter as sneaky and manipulative and trying to get away with stuff and a liar, I couldn't imagine it.
	Does this make any sense to you?
	Yeah. This is my daughter!
	I mean, she's perfect!
	Right? Yeah.
	And, like, thinking about it, like, um...
	It...
	I feel like a mix of, like, sadness and, like...
	And anger about it, too.
	Because it's, like, a really... That's a really terrible way to be treated.
	I kind of had this feeling about this before, but it was just kind of mild like it is now.
	It seems like it's really unjust and it's really abusive and horrible because I'm sick so I'm already in a bad position.
	And then to have to deal with all this extra stuff and have this like...
	I can see that it's really terrible, but for some reason I'm not getting a lot from it.
	No, no. Look, I understand that.
	And look, children can be manipulative.
	I mean, one of the things that I'm proudest of that Isabella has...
	And I only discovered this today.
	I'm incredibly proud that she's actually learned how to start manipulating.
	I think that is just beautiful and fantastic, right?
	I'll give you the two seconds on it and we'll go back to your story.
	This is just a proud dad interlude, so I apologize.
	When I try to put it, Isabella doesn't like going to bed, right?
	She just doesn't like going to bed.
	And I think it's because we're a lot of fun, right?
	I think she thinks that it's Mardi Gras every time she goes into her crib, right?
	We're down there doing the conga or whatever, right?
	So she's just developed this incredibly brilliant thing, which I think, right?
	So when I put her down, which I do, not quite as often as Christina, but I definitely do, so I put her down.
	If she strains like her belly and goes, right, then I think she's pooping, and I won't put her in her crib.
	And that just makes sense.
	I don't want to put her into... Because, you know, I don't want her to sit there for six hours in a poopy diaper, right?
	So when she goes, you know, and strains her stomach, then I don't put her in her crib.
	I will, you know, check her on the change table, see if she just pooped, or I'll wait, right?
	I won't put her down. I'll keep carrying her, because we rock her to sleep, right?
	I keep carrying her and singing to her in the bedroom.
	And it's incredible today, because...
	Christina wasn't able to get her down.
	So I took over and I was rocking her.
	And I was going to put her in a crib.
	And she went, and she took her binky out.
	And she went, and she strained her belly.
	It tensed up her belly. And I thought, oh man, she's going to poop, right?
	Or she's going to fart or whatever. So I didn't put her in a crib.
	I checked her on the change table, whatever, right?
	And this happened three or four times.
	And I thought, okay, well, if she's going to poop, then I'm going to wait.
	I'm not going to try and put her down.
	I'm going to walk back and forth here while she spends 20 minutes squeezing out some...
	Ick her, right? So, it's incredible.
	So, I take her out of her bedroom, and I start walking her around, and we put her down, I play with her, I give her a massage, whatever.
	And not once, the whole time, does she take the binky out and go, and tense up her stomach.
	Not once, the whole time that we're out of that bedroom, right?
	So, I'm like, I think she's doing something here.
	I think she's doing something here, right?
	So, I take her back into her bedroom, right?
	And literally, within 30 seconds of me going back into her bedroom and starting to sing to her and rock her to sleep, she tenses up her belly, pulls out her pinky and goes, you know, just half an hour.
	She wasn't doing it.
	And the moment I go back into the bedroom, she's like, and I'm like, no, no, no.
	I think I'm on for you now, right?
	And it's because, obviously because she's helpless, right?
	I mean, she can't get out of her crib.
	Once we put her into a crib and If she's upset, she'll cry.
	She doesn't want to be put into a crib.
	And she's figured it out. I mean, she figured it out even before I did.
	That's brilliant. So children will, and I view it as a delightful kind of game, right?
	Because she's trying to get what she wants.
	And she's perfectly free to try to get what she wants.
	I want her to try to get what she wants, right?
	And she's figured out this association.
	That if she goes, I don't put her in a crib.
	She doesn't want to go into a crib.
	So she goes, the moment I take her out, she hasn't figured that she needs to keep doing it, right?
	She will at some point, right?
	So that's why I ask, did you sometimes fake it?
	Because children will sometimes fake illnesses to not go to school.
	Maybe they didn't study for a test or maybe whatever, whatever, right?
	And I think it's perfectly legitimate for children to try to get their way.
	I'm not saying you give into it or anything like that.
	It's not like... But it's perfectly valid, right?
	But the reason I'm bringing all this up is that there's a view shared by a lot of people who have care and custody over children.
	A lot of people. Which is that children are sneaky and liars and are always trying to get away with something.
	They're always up to something.
	They're always trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
	And you've got to be like...
	Some sort of trained ninja brain reader to try and constantly thwart their manipulative, nasty little desires, if that makes any sense.
	I've seen this in teachers, and I've even seen this in professors, right?
	And I remember the few times that I've been treated kindly by teachers and professors, it was kind of a shock to me.
	But it sounds like your stepmom had this kind of you, like...
	Casting a really suspicious and jaundiced eye over you when you would say, I want X or I would prefer Y or whatever.
	Like you were always, I shouldn't say, like you were always, but like, was it common that she would think you were up to something or was that only to do with illness?
	No, she always thought that I was up to something.
	Like, even if she would actually say that to me, like even if We were talking about chores or something.
	If I was like, well, it doesn't look like it needs to be clean.
	Maybe I can do it tomorrow or something because I have something to do today but not tomorrow.
	I would just start talking to her and trying to reason with her.
	Well, negotiate, right?
	You're trying to negotiate. Right, yeah.
	And she would say, oh, you're using your mind tricks on me.
	You're just trying to... Your mind tricks me.
	What are you, a little Jedi outfit there?
	Right. I guess what she saw from me was that I could manipulate how she was thinking or something.
	These are not the chores you're looking for.
	Right. Got it.
	Got it. All right. I'm sorry.
	I shouldn't make fun of it because I know it's really, really unpleasant, but it just seems kind of funny that she feels that she's going to be intellectually dominated by a six-year-old.
	But anyway, so this is what she sort of felt, that children are sneaky and always trying to get something, always trying to wriggle out of work and, you know, trying to get a child to do the right thing.
	It's like trying to nail Jell-O to a wall or something.
	Like you have to be constantly stern and strict and always keep your eyes.
	You know, like you're a guy with his pockets full of money, stuffed full of bills in a convention of pickpockets, you know.
	You know, you just constantly grab everything and make sure...
	It's sort of like, that's the sense that I get.
	Does that fit with your history or experience at all?
	Yeah, yeah. That's pretty much how it went.
	All right. All right.
	All right. Okay.
	So, going to ask for help in the store?
	I mean, I'm sure you've made these connections already, right?
	But you can see the...
	Right? Yes, yeah.
	That is one that I made while I was journaling and just in discussions with Marissa and stuff before, too.
	Okay. I'm going to just give you a very short speech here, I promise, and I hope that it will help.
	This is really, really important.
	People have conflict when they are pretending to themselves that they can negotiate when deep down they believe that they can't.
	This is my new thesis.
	I might do a podcast on this, right?
	But I was sort of trying to figure this out the other day.
	So if you can negotiate with someone, right?
	So if you have chores to do and you say, well, this looks pretty clean and hasn't really been used, so maybe I can do it tomorrow or maybe we can skip this week or whatever, right?
	And you negotiate with your stepmom or your dad or whatever.
	If you can do that, You may not always end up agreeing, and maybe sometimes you'll have to do it because, you know, she lifts up, you have to clean the toilet, or if she lifts up the toilet and it looks gross or whatever, you go, okay, well then I can't leave it for a week or whatever, right?
	But you won't have a lot of conflict because you will have the ability to negotiate, and negotiation means sometimes you get your way, but you end up with the best solution, right, usually.
	And... So that minimizes human conflict.
	Now, if you genuinely believe that you cannot negotiate with someone, that also, in a weird way, minimizes human conflict.
	Because you'll just do it, right?
	Right, like if you just don't see any other option.
	Well, it's like, if you were only trying to negotiate about chores and so on with your stepmom...
	Because you believed that you could negotiate, right?
	Because I'm guessing that sometimes it would work, or maybe...
	I mean, did it work? Did you get a chance to negotiate with her?
	Was it inconsistent? I mean, why were you trying, I guess is the question.
	Well... Sometimes I could do it with my dad.
	I know, but we're talking about your stepmom, right?
	Right. For a specific reason, which will hopefully become clear.
	With her, it...
	There were occasional times where it would work, but it was very...
	I don't think it was ever based on anything I was doing.
	It was always just however she would just be in a good mood for some reason and be like, okay, go and have fun instead.
	But it wasn't really...
	I don't think that I had any effect over it.
	Okay. So did you continue to try and negotiate with your stepmom, or did you stop after a while?
	After a while, I stopped.
	Because it just always spun off into, like, a bigger, like, kind of argument thing, and then my dad would come in and be like, like, you know how your mom is, just, like, just do it, and then we won't have any problems, and... We, right?
	Yeah. I mean, that's...
	Yeah. I don't know, the number of times that children have to be the axle grease, right?
	It's, uh... Not good at all, in my opinion.
	Alright, so for a while you were trying to negotiate because you had some belief that you would have some effect and after a while you just realized that it wasn't, right?
	She was just going to do what she wanted on her whim and your negotiation didn't really have anything to do with it, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And not trying to rescue a thesis.
	I don't want to say I tried to rescue a thesis that I had earlier, right?
	But earlier, I was sort of saying that a feeling of invisibility, a ghostliness...
	Right, like I don't have any...
	Like a...
	Like effect on it at all.
	Yeah, because once it stopped working, I would just like...
	Maybe I would say, hey, can I not do this today?
	And if she was like, oh, you have to do it today, I would just be like, okay.
	and just like just do it without any anything else uh going after that um maybe you could tell me more what you mean uh I will come back to that in just a second, but tell me a little bit more about...
	Could you negotiate with your father?
	I mean, obviously not about your stepmother, but outside of the sphere of your stepmother?
	Yes. Yeah, it was a lot more successful with my dad.
	He would be more understanding about...
	Well, my friends planned something today, so I have tomorrow completely open.
	And he would be like, okay, well, that makes sense, so you can do this.
	And he would, other times, also acknowledge that my mom's rules didn't really make a lot of sense, so he would let me do it and just be like, well, don't tell your mom.
	Right. And we had deals like that...
	Or sometimes he would help me out with something, like fixing my car or something, and I'd be like, okay, how much do I owe you for the parts?
	And he'd be like, I'll take care of it, but don't let your mom know.
	I could negotiate with him about things.
	Again, it wasn't always, but it was a lot.
	I could make points that seemed to have effects on the outcomes.
	And, you know, that's to his credit, right?
	I mean, obviously, he wasn't able to, doesn't sound like he was able to stand up to your stepmom, but to his credit, you could negotiate with him, which has obviously given you some latitude and some skills development in that area, right?
	Right, yeah. Okay.
	So... I wonder, because you have one example of someone you can't negotiate with, another example of someone you can negotiate with, but it's almost like you've universalized the not negotiating, right? Right.
	And there's got to be a really good reason for that, but I think it's important to know what that reason is.
	I'm not saying I know what it is.
	I just think it's important to know what it is, if that makes any sense.
	Yeah, well, that would seem like the important puzzle piece.
	Oh, because... Sorry.
	Because she's the final authority, right?
	Oh, right. Yeah, because your dad differs to her, right?
	Right. And he would only kind of weasel around behind her back, but if she saw it, it would be like, done.
	Like, no, you're... We're doing it my way again.
	Right, so your dad kind of became what she feared you already were, right?
	Somebody kind of sneaked and weaseled around, right?
	Right. Right, okay.
	So, it's authority figures who have this, you can't negotiate with me, and this sort of aggression, right?
	Yes, people that I perceive to have some sort of authority over me.
	No, no, no. Logically, it's not authority over you.
	Because when you go to Best Buy, the guy doesn't have authority over you.
	Now, your boss does, right?
	But the guy in Best Buy, he only has this thing called authority in that he knows where the iPods are, but he doesn't have authority over you.
	Right. I mean, it's a distinction that's important.
	Right, yeah, that makes sense.
	I kind of made it more like he has the knowledge, authority, and whatever it is I'm asking him about.
	Right, so you are to these people in authority as your dad is to your stepmom.
	The template comes from your dad, right?
	I feel like this is clicking, but I'm having a hard time getting it.
	Well, that could be because it's not clicking and I'm wrong, but let's see, right?
	Right.
	I mean, it could be.
	why did your father not stand up to your stepmother?
	Or let me ask you, have you asked that question before of yourself, or I guess of your history?
	Okay.
	I have.
	The answer that I have is that then he would have to fight with her rather than her just kind of fighting with us.
	What? It may make sense to you and maybe it makes sense in general, but it does not make sense to me.
	Well, because if he stood up to her, then they would have a conflict with each other and they would be fighting about something, like about us.
	But if he just caved to whatever she wanted, then it would just be her fighting with us and he wouldn't have to Who's the us?
	Me and my brother, because we both were...
	Oh, okay. Sorry. I thought the us was...
	Okay. So if he doesn't stand up for you guys, then his wife will only fight with you and not with him.
	Right.
	So in that scenario, you as children are better equipped and constituted to take her aggression than he is as an adult.
	But that's not true.
	Well, but that's the logic, right?
	you take her aggression oh children because as children you are much better equipped to handle it than I as an adult am that makes me feel very angry to think about that um Do you think it's unfair?
	To me it seems logical and a fair assessment, but tell me if it's unfair, we should stop.
	I don't want to interfere with your anger, but I just want to make sure I understand whether you think it's a fair assessment.
	Because again, I'm just going on some sketchy info here.
	No, I think that it's absolutely fair.
	And it's even just...
	The other layer that I kind of...
	My brain added in was...
	Because he brought her there.
	He was like, you come here and I'm going to marry you.
	I'm going to give you authority over my children, right?
	Right. And then...
	Go ahead. And then just setting it up where we have to...
	We're dealing with her and he always...
	Sets it.
	Because even... Sorry, I keep stopping.
	Because even when he would like...
	If... He did me a favor with something and she found out.
	A lot of times that would even get...
	It would be a little bit of like, you're not supposed to help them.
	And then he would send her over to us again and it would be like, we went behind her back and stuff like that.
	Even if he got caught doing something that she didn't like, it would even then get directed at us.
	So you would be the four guys even if he ended up doing something that she didn't want.
	Right. So children as human shields, in a way, is not a particularly noble thing, right?
	No. Not at all.
	I'm scared of her, so you take her on, oh little boy of mine, right?
	That's just really messed up.
	It's not very elevated, right?
	It's not very noble.
	I'm scared of the dragon, says the guy with the lance and the horse and the armor.
	And so he pushes out his little boy to take on the dragon, right?
	Right?
	Yeah, I'm feeling kind of sad right now.
	Is there water running somewhere?
	Let me hear some water.
	Anyway, it doesn't matter. Go on. Um...
	Well...
	Because it's not like that just happened.
	Like, that was set up. It was like...
	Like, this is how I want things to go.
	Because that's what he chose to do.
	Well, I don't know, and I don't want to get into this aspect of history because I don't want to keep you here too long, but I'm not so sure.
	See, I mean, when I've talked to people before where there's been, you know, overt, brutal violence, you know, that's a really shocking wake-up call for any parent to intervene very proactively to protect the children, right?
	So to me, that's a different category, but if there's just a kind of like a slightly weaselly misdirect or, you know, oh, you know your mother and so on, that kind of, it's a very soft staircase to fall down, that kind of appeasement.
	I don't think that's a decision that The way that we're putting it now, you know, like, he didn't...
	I can almost guarantee you that your dad didn't sit there and say, well, I'm really scared of her temper, so I'm going to hurt my children out to deal with her.
	I mean, because if he'd have thought of it that clearly, then he wouldn't have been able to do it, right?
	Right, right. Like, appeasement in that kind of soft...
	Corrosive scenario is not a shocking moment.
	It's a series of little liquid decisions, if that makes any sense.
	I'm not saying it makes it okay, just so you understand that, at least in my opinion.
	But it's not quite as shocking a situation as a sudden blaze-up of physical violence.
	Right. Yeah, and it's not quite like how I put it.
	It's not like he had a checklist.
	Send out children to deal with aggressive wife that I can't handle.
	I mean, no, right? And if you'd have said to him, or if someone had not, you would never have, right?
	Because, I mean, you're a kid. You're just trying to get by.
	But if someone had said to him, do you think it's really fair that your children should deal with your wife's temper when you're afraid of it?
	Right? He would have said, no, of course, that's not fair.
	And that may have been, right?
	But the problem is, of course, that sadly people don't do that with people.
	So... It's a tragedy, right?
	Because then this stuff just goes on and on.
	And I'm certainly not trying to make you feel sympathetic because I think the anger is really important.
	But I think it's really important to understand that this is, in my opinion, this would be more of a series of kind of little weaselly, kind of little cowardly decisions that end up with this situation rather than just one big, wow, I'm going to do X, right? Right.
	Right. But, of course, I mean, absolutely, it's completely wrong to use your kids as a human shield against the temper of an adult that you've brought into their lives.
	I mean, that's just all kinds of wrong.
	There's no shred of that that's not wrong.
	Right, so I would be clear about where I stand on it as far as the ethics go.
	But I also would not put a lot of conscious awareness on your dad's part.
	I mean, I don't know. I wouldn't say that would be the first place I would go.
	Yeah, I think that that's accurate too.
	Alright. So...
	I'm going to then, just because I don't want to keep you up all night, I'll just throw a few truth grenades over the fence and we'll see what next up.
	How does that sound? Yeah, that sounds good.
	Right, okay. So, people using stuff against you?
	Well, of course. If your stepmother has the perception, and it's not personal to you, obviously, right?
	But if your mother has the perception that you are just going to try and get away with stuff, then of course you're going to be withdrawn.
	And of course you're going to not want to Show her any thoughts and feelings, because she's going to misinterpret those thoughts and feelings in a negative light, right?
	Right. Like, no matter what happens, no matter what happens, it's going to be negative to you.
	I mean, I think we've all known people like that, that it doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter what you do, then it's just going to be negative to you, right?
	Yeah. Again, to misinterpret anything, they can put a negative spin on anything, right?
	So the idea that you would have, that people who have authority would look for things to use against you, I think makes sense from the template you were starting from.
	Great, yeah, I agree.
	That makes a lot of sense to me.
	Staying inward is, to me, also makes perfect sense.
	And again, I'll just focus on your stepmom here too, right?
	And without ascribing conscious, I think with your stepmom, conscious motivation I think is a little clearer.
	I mean, your dad was sort of like, well, we're all in this together.
	It's like, no, no, no, you married her.
	We're not all in this. You're the adult and you brought her into our lives.
	We're not sort of all in this together and let's try and get away with stuff, right?
	I mean, that's a very strange perspective to have for me when you, you know, it's like I bring a, I don't know, a tiger into the house and I say to Isabella, well, we're all in this together.
	It's like, No?
	You brought the tiger? Again, I'm exaggerating, but you know what I mean, right?
	Right, yeah. So, if you have someone around you who has that kind of cold eye of Sauron as far as, you know, judging your motives and your perspectives, you're going to clam up.
	Because when you have someone who's very skeptical and hostile towards who you are as a person in your immediate environment...
	It's like having a person made of molten lava lounging around the house.
	You can't get close.
	You can't open up.
	You can't take off your asbestos suit because you're going to get scalded, right?
	Right. So you go inwards, right?
	Because they have a very negative opinion of you or a very low opinion of you, to say the least.
	And so you're going to not want to empathize with that person because when you empathize with someone who has a bad opinion of you, That's kind of like infecting yourself with a cold voluntarily, right?
	Right.
	It's not healthy to empathize with people who have a negative opinion of us.
	I mean, especially when it's not personal, right?
	It's not about an objective judgment, right?
	It's just kind of like putting yourself in unnecessary danger.
	Well, it's not danger.
	I mean, because for sure it's going to hurt like hell.
	It's like, don't put your hand on a stove, right?
	You can't be intimate with people who think that you're a sneaky, manipulative little X, Y, Z, right?
	Right. You're going to have to close in.
	You're going to have to close in, right?
	Right. Right.
	Because then, if you empathize with that, aren't you kind of accepting?
	Does that mean that you're kind of accepting what they're saying about you?
	I think there is, yeah, I really do think there's that aspect of it as well.
	And I don't know how to empathize with the opposite of empathy, right?
	I mean, I, as a pretty, you know, well-read and fairly intelligent adult, I can't imagine how I can empathize with the opposite of empathy.
	And if your stepmom is like, if you're like afraid to go in and when you're sick, to go in and you got, right?
	If you feel like you're living in a bit of a Gestapo land, right?
	And you feel that she thinks these bad things of you, then she's not being empathetic towards you, right?
	Right. Right?
	And you can't empathize with someone who does not have empathy.
	And... It's even worse.
	I don't know what the word is.
	It's like projection is not strong enough.
	It's like anti-empathy, right?
	So I don't have empathy for some guy who's currently on his deathbed in India because I don't know who the hell he is, right?
	But if I'm living with someone and have a negative and hostile judgment of them, that's anti-empathy, right?
	It's an active negative empathy.
	And you can't empathize with that as a kid.
	You can't. It's impossible.
	You can't even as an adult. I'm not explaining that well, but I hope if you listen again, it will make some kind of sense.
	Yeah. I can't think of a good metaphor, but, you know, you just...
	Empathy is a positive and warm act of understanding and getting inside someone else's skin.
	And if what's inside their skin is you're a bad person, it scalds you to even try.
	Right, right. The only antipathy.
	Antipathy, you know, it's not quite...
	Antipathy, that's active hostility.
	It's going to scald you.
	So to sort of fall inwards, to go inwards, to me, would be the most sensible survival strategy in that situation.
	And if in your family constellation, authority...
	A hostile authority rules, then aren't you going to see that in the world when you go out?
	That's the price of your dad's appeasement, right?
	So he gets the benefits in a sense, right?
	So he gets this woman who obviously wants in his life or in his bed or something like that.
	And he gets to appease you, right?
	He gets to use your affection for him and your desire for peace and quiet to appease.
	So you'll end up changing, right?
	But the problem is that then you come out of that environment with no faith in the strength of good people.
	And a belief that antipathy runs the world.
	I mean, don't we to some degree, if we've had these kinds of backgrounds, don't we to some degree see the world?
	I know I do sometimes.
	I see the world as like the bad people, like this big combine harvester.
	And good people are like the occasional shaft of wheat.
	Munch, munch, munch, munch, right? - I know that I've had thoughts like that before.
	Yeah, like we are trembling little field mice at the feet of dinosaurs, right?
	Can't fight. Just dodge.
	Just roll. Just build your little nest.
	Just hope they don't see you.
	Just try and get by, just scurry and slither and stay under the radar and, you know, snatch your little food and gnaw it and, you know, in your hole and so on, right?
	Yeah, I've kind of talked about that before where it's like you kind of feel like you're just kind of surrounded and, like, all you can do is just try and, like, just kind of weave through everything as best as you can so that we can, like, come home and then be...
	like, open and honest again.
	But outside, it's like, you've got to just kind of make it through.
	With my wife, yeah. Yeah, sorry, your wife.
	Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, for sure.
	I mean, yeah, Christine and I have gone through these phases as well.
	It's just like, I don't want to go out.
	Do you want to go out? Nope, I want to go out, right?
	Yeah. I mean, I know because people, you know, these calls and, you know, the barbecues and I mean, I'm a sociable guy in a lot of ways, but I'm very much a homebody and I'm not a big fan of the planet.
	I don't feel a lot of antipathy towards it, but I just don't find it particularly engaging.
	I mean, when you've worked on yourself for a long time, you just don't speak the language of normalcy anymore.
	You just don't speak the language of average anymore.
	It just doesn't work, right?
	And so shyness is, at least it was for me, and I think there's something universal in this, though.
	I'm not going to claim that it's any kind of objective truth statement, but shyness is two things to me.
	And I'm going to use the word evil here, and I certainly don't mean to apply this to your stepmother.
	I'm just going to talk about that this is a general concept, right?
	Because I don't... I certainly wouldn't make that judgment based on what you've told me, because I don't have enough information and whatever, right?
	But shyness to me comes down to two things.
	One, it's just a kind of exhaustion.
	It's a kind of tiredness that comes out of having to manage a dominant predator in the home environment of one kind or another, whether it's verbal or physical or even worse, some kind of antipathy.
	So it's tiredness, just tiredness.
	Drained. I think we're only born with a certain amount of fight in us.
	And it's a real shame when it gets used up, right?
	Because part of why the world stays bad is people's fight gets used up when they're children.
	So they don't have a lot of strength when they're adults to fight because they're just tired of fighting bad stuff when they're kids, right?
	So you're just like, I don't want to put that suit of armor on again.
	I don't want to saddle up.
	I don't want to draw a blade.
	I just did that when I was a kid for so long.
	Exhaust children and you won't get much of a fight out of the adults.
	So I think shyness is like, I don't have the energy.
	I don't have the strength. I can't go another round.
	So I'm just going to lay low.
	I'm just going to Stay under the radar.
	Stay small. That to me is one aspect of shyness.
	And the other aspect of shyness, I think, is that brutes rule the world.
	And it's not like we're crazy and wrong about that, right?
	I mean, there's war, there's these terrible prisons, there's genocides, there's All the terrible things that occur in the world.
	There's the institutionalized violence and all the stuff that we talk about as philosophers and freedom lovers and so on, right?
	And then there's all these weasels who try to make us change because they don't want to face the realities of the authority that's in their society, right?
	So part of it is because it is true that there are a lot of people who do...
	I think brutes is a good way to describe it, because I was just going to say attack, but they...
	Yeah, they abuse authority, absolutely.
	Absolutely. But we have to be fair, and we have to be distinct.
	And what I mean by that is, there still is a difference between involuntarism and voluntarism, right?
	What controls the abuses of power?
	It's voluntarism, right?
	And so that's why I continually remind people of voluntarism, right?
	In relationships, in careers, in all this kind of stuff, right?
	What controls corruption is voluntarism.
	If they can't force you, they have to be nice to you, right?
	All right. And so Best Buy is not your stepmom.
	And if your stepmom has turned Best Buy into her, then she's one for the rest of your life.
	You understand?
	You will spend the rest of your life standing outside her door wondering if she's awake and hoping that she hasn't heard you yet.
	If you turn everything into involuntarism, then she's won.
	I really don't want that.
	I know. I know.
	I know. And that's why it's important to say, am I in a situation of involuntarism or involuntarism?
	Right? So if a cop pulls me over, Or when I'm trying to go across the border into Philadelphia, I'm all smiles.
	I'm all, hey, you know, happy to chat with you.
	Nice weather we're having, right?
	Because I'm not in a situation of volunteerism.
	I'm not going to make any demands.
	I'm not going to pretend I can negotiate.
	I'm just going to be as saccharine nice as I conceivably can be because I'm not in a situation of volunteerism.
	A guy at Best Buy says, I'm sorry sir, you're going to have to stop right here in this aisle and I'm going to need to see some ID. I'm going to be like, get the fuck out of here.
	Who the hell are you to ask me for ID? Are you kidding me?
	Because I'm in a situation of volunteerism.
	I see Joe Cop Flasher in the back, Mr.
	Bacon. I pull over, I hand him my ID. I'm yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir.
	Because I'm not in a situation of voluntarism.
	People get into trouble when they either say, I'm going to pretend this involuntary situation is like a situation of voluntarism.
	That's like voting and chaining yourself to courtroom doors and not paying your income tax and stupid shit like that.
	Because then you're treating a situation of involuntarism like it's voluntary, like you can do something, right?
	But shyness is treating a voluntary situation like it's an involuntary situation.
	And that's the distinction that I would really urge upon you.
	The music is voluntary.
	You can write the music, you can record the music, you can give people the music.
	Yeah, they might not like it, but so what?
	It's not involuntary.
	It is a voluntary situation.
	It doesn't mean you won't feel anxious, it doesn't mean you won't feel nervous, but it's still different from standing outside your stepmom's room, right?
	Right. That was not a voluntary situation.
	Right, like the thought I just had was like, if I'm at Best Buy, like I want to be there because I'm trying to get something I want, like it's not.
	Yeah, you're not forced there.
	I'm just trying to get this big meat cleaver down the middle of people's lives to say, on the left is involuntarism and on the right is voluntarism.
	And comply on the left and feel free on the right.
	But don't mix this sausage up together, right?
	And just know that difference.
	You're walking into Best Buy, I'm here.
	They're here.
	The store is here.
	The goods are here. The cashier is here.
	The visa's in my pocket voluntarily.
	And that means quality and respect most times.
	I've maybe had two rude waiters my entire life.
	And then, here's the cool thing, and I'll just end on this, because I know it's getting late, but the cool thing is, when you take the happiness and respect and cordiality of voluntarism into the involuntary when you take the happiness and respect and cordiality of voluntarism into the involuntary sphere, you can actually and you can bring some of that over.
	Right, so if I'm at the DMV, I can be...
	Very positive and pleasant and make a joke or two.
	And they will actually want to help me.
	Like it's a little bit closer to a voluntary situation.
	Right. Right?
	And that's about as good as it's going to get.
	Is to bring as much of the respect and cordiality of the voluntary world into the involuntary world.
	Just carve a little bit out.
	Just a little bit. So it's not don't mix this sausage, it's mix it one way but not the other.
	Well, you just work on the distinction, right?
	Because right now, everything is standing outside your mom's room, right?
	Right, right. So you just work on getting this meat cleaver down the middle of this thing, right?
	Chop, chop, right? You just sushi up this mother, right?
	You just get that distinction, in my opinion.
	Because if we, who are voluntarists, can't really clearly see the distinction, we can't teach other people about it, right?
	Right. Right, because it's kind of ridiculous if I'm trying to be like, no, do voluntary things, but then I can't ask people about things that I want to know about.
	Well, you're saying voluntarism is really great and it's really wonderful and we should have more of it, but I'm going to treat...
	Right.
	Right. So anyway, that's, I mean, so the shyness, again, is the exhaustion and the belief that the world is run by brutes.
	The exhaustion, I completely understand.
	It's why I tell people, you know, to just get those stressful relationships either better or take breaks from them and, you know, work on yourself away because, you know, we need to not fight.
	You need to not fight for a while, for sure, to rest.
	And then maybe you'll never want to fight again, right?
	But the important thing is just to rest because you definitely deserve that.
	Yeah. And the world is not run by brutes.
	The world is run by ideas.
	Brutes profit from bad ideas, but we can improve the ideas.
	We can't improve the brutes, but we can sure as hell improve the ideas, and that will change everything in the long run.
	But, I mean, I think that's important, right?
	The world is, to a large degree, run by brutes, but that doesn't mean that it's all that way and there's no place where you can be...
	That you can taste this sort of sweet fruits of voluntaryism.
	I mean, you have that with your marriage, right?
	Right, right. Yeah, that makes sense because they're only there ruling because they're there for a reason.
	It's because of the bad ideas.
	Right, right, right.
	Yeah, and there's these conversations that somebody just mentioned through, right?
	Right. So to say, I know we traveled quite a bit there.
	Was that useful?
	Was that... Yeah, that was actually really helpful.
	Thank you. I do see that I need to try and get a clearer line between my voluntary things and my involuntary things.
	And it's also helpful because I also kind of thought about this too a little bit, but I have a little bit of a conception that it's not so widespread.
	I mean, you have a ton of podcasts and videos, and other people just kind of do things like...
	I know one video I saw Colleen do, she made a mistake with singing a song or something, and I would have been terrified to post that.
	But she just posted it, and I'm like, oh, all these people can just do this stuff, and it's so easy, and I'm having such a hard time.
	But I think that that's not necessarily true.
	They just... You can kind of just do it anyway.
	Well, it's voluntary, right?
	Because it's voluntary, right?
	You're not inflicting your videos on anyone.
	Like if people say, oh, Steph, your podcast's unscripted and there are too many tangents.
	I get this stuff, right? It's ridiculous to me.
	I was like, well, you get a full refund.
	Jesus Christ! I mean, people write this stuff to me like it makes any sense at all.
	Oh, Steph, there's this wrong, and there's that wrong, and there's the other thing, and there's this wrong, and this is bad, and this is wrong, and this is bad.
	And I get this stuff continually, and I just, I don't even, I don't understand why people would write it.
	Because it's like, if you can do such a great job, then go and do that better job.
	You know, don't write to me about everything that I'm doing.
	If you can do a better philosophy podcast, fuck, go for it, you know?
	Fantastic. I mean, I'm thrilled.
	You know, whatever helps spread philosophy, I'm down with, right?
	So, I think that's, you know, just go do that.
	And the other thing, too, is that, you know, it's easy to not listen to the podcast.
	You have to work quite hard to listen to the podcast.
	You know, find them and download them, put them on your MP3 player, cue them up, play them, listen to them, get offended, get upset, turn it off, write me long letters, and so on, right?
	And it's just like, well, don't.
	I mean, if it's really bad, then don't.
	I mean, If I had eaten at a restaurant and I don't like the food, I don't sit there and write 20 letters to the manager, right?
	I just don't go back, right?
	Or, you know, if I'm really interested in there being a great restaurant in town and the restaurant that's in town is crappy and I think I can do such a better job and I love restaurants, I'll just open a restaurant and stop, you know, nagging at other people to...
	Like, it's just... It's a stupid waste of...
	Of time that people do this kind of stuff.
	But of course, there's lots of people out there who are like, ooh, a ray of sunshine, let me take a long, slow dump on wherever it lands, right?
	That's just part of where a lot of people are at at the moment.
	And that's the internet, right?
	Lots of web carriage and so on, right?
	Yeah. So, yeah, that's a complete voluntary thing.
	So, for me, it's just like, well, just don't listen to the goddamn podcast if you don't like them, right?
	But, I mean, it's funny to me, right?
	I think I'm about the most successful podcaster on the planet, and you would not believe how many lectures I get on how to improve everything.
	It's just astounding. Anyway.
	I'm sure Marlon Brando, not to put myself in that kind of illustrious category, but I'm sure that Marlon Brando got lots of letters about how to improve acting, how he should be a better actor.
	It's inevitable, right?
	It's just what insecure people do to bring other people down, and it's just sad.
	But, you know, so that's why.
	It's completely voluntary. If you don't like it, don't watch.
	I mean, if you're offended at it, don't watch, right?
	Right. Yeah, and then in the same way, like with me, if I don't do it because I'm scared these people are going to be offended or something, then they're just winning again.
	Yeah, well then you're back to your mom's running your life, right?
	I mean, as far as that goes, and that's fine.
	You had to put up with that because you were a kid and this is who your dad chose and you obviously couldn't make the difference to that.
	But that's not the case with this stuff as an adult.
	Well, thank you very, very much for taking the time to talk to me.
	I appreciate this. It's a great topic, and I've been meaning to do shyness for a while, but I felt strangely reticent.
	Oh, I can't believe I made it.
	Oh, what a note to end on.
	Oh, well. Now I get lots of complaints about that joke.
	At least you could hold it to the end.
	At least I could hold it, otherwise you'd have just hung up earlier, right?
	All right, well, thanks. I'll send you a copy of this, and let me know what you think.
	I certainly think other people would help to hear, but you can let me know what you think.
	Yeah, well, if you could just send me a copy anyway, but you can just go ahead and post it.
	Oh, thanks, man. I appreciate that, and all my best to your life.

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