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July 1, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:30:07
1407 Self RTR While Dating (A Convo)

How to stay in touch with yourself so you won't, um, have to stay in touch with yourself...

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Time Text
Now, I am doing a few errands, but the errands are completely brain-dead, so you have my complete attention.
You're in the car? No, I'm...
Oh, God, no. No, I'm not Skyping from the car.
No, no, I'm just at home.
I just have... You know, I've got to do the bathrooms or whatever, but it's completely brain-dead work, so I can certainly multitask to this level, I hope, anyway.
No problem. How about I just read the email, because...
That will get my brain straightened out here.
Oh, great. Then you read the email and we'll stop talking then.
Okay. I wrote an email to Steph asking about rejecting women that I am initially interested in, but it turns out not to be so good.
So I wrote... I've had to do this a number of times now as I continue to start dating again.
I meet new women I'm interested.
That doesn't sound right.
I meet new women with whom I'm interested, get to know, and decide I'm no longer interested.
I have a lot of trouble separating my own feelings and preferences, which is to reject them and look elsewhere, versus their feelings and preferences, which is to date me.
Because if they're interested, then, you know, I've been struggling with this, and while it has gotten a tad easier, I feel really awful and, well, just to add more to what's in the email, I feel guilty and ashamed of breaking it off.
I guess if it's not, to further elaborate, if it's not an actual relationship, I feel like, because if you're just meeting someone, then you're not exactly in a relationship.
You've just met. So it's kind of an initial situation.
Yet I feel awful for even just discontinuing contact even though you just met.
So I feel really awful when I get to the point where I know for sure that I've lost interest.
So, in one case, I mistakenly tried to remain friends even after telling her that I did not share her feelings, knowing that this would go terribly wrong, and it did.
Her feelings of being rejected went underground, and naturally she acted out passive-aggressively.
Right, because the key thing is to say, oh, I certainly do share your feelings of being very attracted to someone, it's just not to you.
Right. Right, that didn't turn out to...
No, I'm just kidding. Okay.
I have no plans of ever doing that again.
Oh, you mean the staying friends thing?
Yeah. So once I end it, it should be done and over.
Had this been easy for me to do given the above struggle, I'd have done it.
I'm sorry.
The above struggle is what?
I just want to make sure I follow. Which is having to separate my preferences from theirs and wanting to end things even though it may disappoint them or hurt them or they may feel rejected or they may react really badly, which has happened also. And sorry, when you say to end things, you're not talking about ending a dating relationship.
You're more talking about not starting a dating relationship.
Exactly. See, I haven't even had a real official date in 21 months.
I mean, I haven't taken a girl out to a movie and dinner.
That hasn't happened in, well, at least 21 months.
So I haven't even gotten to that point yet.
Right, right. So this is before that.
So the next person I did this with wanted to be friends as well.
I told her no, that based on the initial interest and intent, I didn't think it would work out as friends, and I felt really bad about doing that.
She of course reacted as I expected, which is why I didn't want to date her in the first place, because I picked up on that.
So I only got validation for my decision, but still felt bad.
How did she react? Just sort of, she leveled.
Because I get that she probably felt humiliated about being rejected and then leveled by humiliating me by saying, well, how do you even know?
I didn't say – I did never even say I was interested in you.
Yeah, who do you think you are?
You think you're all that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of half the time because I'm afraid they're going to say, well, I was never interested in you.
What do you think? You're some kind of egotistical – Everybody likes you or something.
So that's another thing I'm avoiding in addition to the guilt and shame.
So now I'm in the same position again, which when I sent this email, I was, but I have since cut off any contact.
Now I'm in the same position again with someone, and perhaps there's still some fine-tuning as far as prevention, like getting it before I start To talk to or pursue them.
Yeah, like there's some vibe you might be giving off that puts you in this situation, so to speak.
Right. Or something I'm missing just initially.
Or just something that I can do to limit these circumstances to a minimum.
I know there's some physical appearance red flags that I can pick out, like fake nails, tattoos, piercings, all the general stuff like The hygiene, how they dress.
Blue hair.
Yeah, blue hair. Again, these aren't all perfect, but they can come together, right, with some indications.
Right. So I think one problem is communication.
While it's obvious that we're both interested in each other with romantic intent, at least initially, it's not really talked about.
You just slipped in for the big fact there.
Okay, wait. That's fine.
I just want to point it out, and maybe I missed something earlier, but you were talking about not being attracted to these women, and now you're talking about being attracted to them initially, which, again, is totally fine.
I just want to make sure I understand which it is.
Okay, in this case, this is where I'm attracted initially.
Okay, so you're attracted initially, but then there are warning signs that come up, and you decide not to pursue it, and the women...
Let's say, do not take it particularly gracefully.
Right. Okay. So, at least initially...
And in each of these situations that have arisen, are you initially attracted and then find that you're not so much?
Yes. Okay.
Well, that's the first thing to look at.
Okay, go ahead. Yeah, because, for instance, this girl that I'm talking about in this paragraph here is...
With someone who worked in the same building that I work in.
And we had been smiling at each other in the hallway as we passed, but for months on end.
And I finally, or actually she finally decided to say something.
And I had planned on saying something too, but just...
You had planned. Yeah.
But she managed to do it first.
Right. So we had lunch and stuff like that.
Sorry, just so I understand.
I mean, let's take this step by step.
So you saw this woman who works in your building, and you felt attracted to her to the point where you would sort of smile back and forth?
Yeah.
Okay.
And what was it about her that you found detractive?
Well, I think there's a number of things.
Let me go through the list.
She was... She was cute.
I mean, she wasn't like drop-dead bombshell blonde or anything like that, but she was cute and she had a great smile, and the way she was smiling at me was an indication that she wasn't depressed, at least. I also knew that she was in IT. In some other area, under some other manager.
So she wasn't on the same team or anything, which means we share common interests in computers, which also means she's intelligent.
So I found that kind of attractive and decided to find out more about her, which the only way to do that is to talk to her or go to lunch or something.
So we went to lunch. And after that lunch, I just sort of...
I felt frustrated the whole time because I just didn't feel there was any real connection or anything like that.
Well, let's talk a little bit more, obviously without any details, but what was the conversation at lunch?
Why was there no connection? There wasn't any...
The conversation was just kind of...
Avoiding any kind of topic that might be interesting.
And as I tried to direct it towards an interesting topic, it got directed away towards a really boring topic.
Like what? What was she talking about?
She plays pool with friends.
She's in this pool team or league or something like that.
It sounds like you were really interested in listening.
She did something with balls that wasn't interesting to me.
But it was more the sort of mundane details of it, which I guess maybe I didn't find it interesting.
Maybe I should have, or maybe I should have at least...
I'm sorry, should have?
What do you mean? I don't know.
All I know is I... You used the word?
What do you mean you don't know? Well, should have as in, you know, maybe I should have found it more interesting, but I didn't.
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean when you say you should have found it more interesting.
What does that mean? I guess that means taken, you know, a begrudging interest or...
You realize the difficulty that you're in in trying to say, I should be more interested than I am.
Which is impossible.
Well, I mean, yes, it's impossible.
I mean, unless you find yourself, like if just before you go and have this lunch, you find yourself, you know, you receive some bad news and you're distracted or something, right?
But I'm just, because this is important, right?
Because there's a sense of obligation here, which is kind of what we're talking about.
And I was waiting for the first indication of obligation to come up, right?
And here it is. And here it is, right?
That's why I'm pausing on that should, right?
Right. So she was boring to you, right?
Yeah, and it may not...
I don't know if it was what she was saying or signals she was giving off or whatever, but I felt like it was...
Sort of dissociated and unconnected and frustrated or something.
You mean, sorry, she was...
I wasn't... Sorry, she was...
Sorry to keep interrupting. Do you mean that she was dissociated and disconnected and so on?
Oh, that's possible.
I mean, that may be why I felt that way.
Okay. But I know that I didn't feel excited, engaged or engrossed or intrigued or anything of the sort or giddy or...
I didn't feel that admiration or anything like that.
She didn't have very many admirable qualities.
Or let's just say at least interesting qualities, right?
Yeah, interesting. Right, right.
Okay. So I was just...
Which is kind of tough because we work in the same building.
Oh, so right. So there's lots of...
How's it going? Yeah.
You want to go play pool or something, right?
Well, we'll get to that.
Okay, so... Yeah, she asked me to go play pool, and I talked to my therapist, which I think that was my second in the last session, but I talked to my therapist about my experiences of her and that she had asked me to go play pool, and so I canceled the pool thing, saying that there was something that worked.
Wait, wait! Too fast?
Okay, sorry. Am I jumping ahead?
Old brain. Okay, so you had this lunch, and did she ask you any questions?
I mean, how was it for you?
That's another thing. She didn't take much of an interest in my interest either.
Well, not your interest, but you, right?
I mean, I assume that she told you that she played pool because you said...
What do you do with your time and life and breath and all that, right?
And so you asked her some questions, and did you find that she herself did not ask you that many questions?
Because there's nothing more boring than being in a one-way conversation, right?
I say that as a podcaster, but you know what I mean, right?
Yeah, she didn't ask me a lot of questions.
But she asked you some questions?
Yeah, not with any probing interest, though.
And I also, I don't know if this is a valid way to sort of test someone's interest from a distance, but I had mentioned this to Greg, I was like, is this a valid way to really decide if someone is actually interested in you?
But I have that stat counter, and I don't get more than maybe 60 to 100 unique visitors on my website per day, so it's...
It's pretty good. I can tell, yeah.
I could tell where they're coming from, and I could tell, you know, it maps them right down to exactly where they live, and I knew she lived in the Heights, and I wasn't seeing any hits from Houston at all, like, the whole time that I knew her.
And she knew my website because she was on my Facebook.
And how did she get on your Facebook?
Oh, we're computer geeks.
Well, sorry, but was this after the lunch?
Uh... No, I think this was before the lunch.
Aha! Right, so you skippied a little bit?
Yeah, I skipped a little.
Alright, so let's go back to...
No problem, I'm just trying to get the sequence here, right?
So, let's go back to when you had a conversation with her, where you gave her your Facebook information, and then you decided to go for lunch, right?
Yeah, there were a couple of more conversations before the lunch.
Yeah, I would assume there was, because you rarely go from smiling to let's eat, right?
Right. This is where the information really is that's important, right?
Because once you're in the lunch, you're kind of, you know, minorly committed to something, right?
Right, right.
And it's too late to say, I don't know.
I have amnesia, a girlfriend, leprosy, you know, whatever, right?
It's too late to make polite excuses once you've basically said, let's have a date, right?
Right, so I think maybe a couple of weeks had passed.
Okay, but what were the interactions that occurred between going for lunch, oh sorry, between the smiles and the going for lunch?
Cubicle visits and office visits.
I'm in an office, she's in a cubicle.
Right, right. Okay.
So you would go and visit her at the cubicle, or she would come visit you in the office?
Yeah, and they were very brief visits.
I mean, we were working, so...
And she's a project manager, and so she's usually in meetings, but like five-minute visits at the cubicle, maybe.
And what would you talk about then?
Was she interesting at that point?
Like, did she just get boring at lunch, or...?
Well...
It was a lot of geek talk about iPhones, because we both had iPhones.
She was just sharing all the kinds of applications that she had.
And up front, I hadn't yet asked a lot of questions about her personal life.
Did she have an application called iBore?
Sorry, just kidding. Idol.
Okay, so you had a chance to interact with her.
And she basically talked about her iPhone.
Basically, yeah. I mean, I talked about mine.
I was just, yeah.
Yeah, we shared applications.
It's like the modern equivalent of playing doctor, you know?
I'll boot up mine. I'll show you my applications if you show me yours.
Right, exactly. I flirt.
Okay. Okay. There was a little more than just that, but it was mostly geek talk.
I mean, it was just work talk or geek talk or just like, what are you doing for work, you know?
And I, at least at that point, got to know what she did there.
And what was your emotional experience of these, you know, obviously brief and somewhat technical interactions?
My emotional experience at that point was...
Let's see, I... I was still attracted.
I know that.
I still felt interested in finding out if there's more underneath there besides a geeky outer layer.
Yeah, because, I mean, you like women with silicon, just not that kind.
Just kidding. Sorry. Right.
It's a different Silicon Valley that normally grabs your interest.
But anyway, go on. Let me grab my...
I still have to do this sometimes, my list of emotions, so that I can pinpoint the exact one.
Right, because it is that easy.
There's only one, right?
Let's see. It was friendly...
Enchanted, a little.
All right. Charming, sort of...
Lively, enthusiastic, maybe a little...
Okay, so it was definitely a positive experience for you when you guys were talking at work.
Right. Right. And I knew we couldn't go into anything deep at cubicles or in offices when there's people, especially cubicles, because there's people around.
But that's why we went to lunch instead.
Well, but I'm going to submit to that.
Nothing was surprising at lunch, right?
Right. There must have been some indication before.
Well, there probably was more than one, right?
And the question is, you know, why you would not see them or whatever, right?
Right.
Now, who was more enthusiastic, if that can be expressed that way?
I think she was.
All right. Because that's important, right?
Whenever you get... I'm no relationship guru, but this is just my sort of thoughts and experience for what they're worth, right?
Certainly nothing professional, but...
But in most relationships that are budding or most flirtations, there's a person who's more enthusiastic and there's a person who's less enthusiastic, which of course is not to say unenthusiastic, just less, right?
More cautious, more curious, right?
A lot of people have this willingness to like, they just throw themselves in without caution, you know, without skepticism, without, it's like, you know, attractive person, let's roll, right?
They don't have any skepticism that way.
Or caution, or standards, or, you know, and I'm putting this in an extreme way, but that's sort of, I've sort of noticed that to some degree.
So if we take it back to December, when I first saw her in the hallway and passed her, and this went on for months, so, why, I suppose it's probably a good question to ask why I never approached her all the time.
Yeah, why did this go on for months?
Right. Right?
It's not like you're all at 12, right?
No. If you like someone, grab them.
If you like someone, then, you know, if you found her, you know, let's take a silly example, right?
I mean, but it's, you know, if you saw her reading Real-Time Relationships, you wouldn't leave months going by, right?
Oh, no, I'd jump at it.
You'd be like, thief, that's my copy.
Or whatever.
If you saw her, I don't know, full World of Warcraft regalia.
I mean, whatever. But something that really...
If she was reading Nietzsche or something, you wouldn't wait for months, right?
No. And that's important, right?
It's important why nothing happened.
Well, okay.
Here's something I forgot about.
There was a Christmas party, quote-unquote party, in the upstairs office for everybody who wants to go and get some food.
And so everybody had gathered in there to get food, and she was in there.
I met her briefly.
I shook her hand and asked her her name and asked her what department she was in.
And then that was the last time I had talked to her for months.
And why did she not talk to her further at that party?
Bye.
I was really nervous and sort of scared to...
I was scared of rejection, I guess, or scared of...
Ah, okay, okay.
At least that was my assumption.
Sorry, this is very important though.
So you were scared of rejection, but I'm still not sure that I understand what you were attracted to, why you were attracted to her.
Right?
Because if you're scared of rejection, then you're automatically assuming that you want to go at least on a date, right?
Right?
Thank you.
So you think my conclusions about my emotional experience at the time might be wrong?
Well, I'm not sure. I don't know.
But you still haven't said much about...
Okay, nice smile, right?
Lots of people have a nice smile every time I open...
You know, one of my wife's Chatelaine magazines, or the parenting magazines, there's lots of people with nice smiles, right?
They're professionals. And a nice smile is, in a sense, a dime a dozen, right?
And it certainly can be non-genuine, right?
There's lots of people who have, like Marilyn Monroe, had a very nice smile, but was insane, right?
So a nice smile doesn't go too, too far, right?
It can be a show.
Well, she is very...
Pretty for, I mean, not the typical type that I tend to be attracted to.
It's kind of Arabic or some kind of Mediterranean.
I'm sorry, is your back at position that she's pretty?
Well, I know I was attracted to her because she had a great smile and she was pretty.
At least in the hallway.
I mean, I don't know what else to go on at that point.
Well, I'm trying to give you some things to go on, right?
Right.
Because what you do, of course, as I've mentioned before, is you say, well, what if she wasn't pretty?
Right?
What if she were a guy?
Right.
What if she were a guy? Yeah.
I probably wouldn't have even met her or talked to her.
I don't think I would have noticed.
Right. And nobody's saying treat everyone you're attracted to as if they're not attractive.
I'm not saying that. But what I'm saying is that when it comes to whether you're going to take A step like maybe going on a date with someone you work with, it's important to...
Ask what if they weren't pretty?
Well, yeah, because you're taking a risk, right?
This is your work environment.
It's a big risk.
I mean, not just the Glenn Close fatal attraction stuff, which can happen, right?
Not common, but it can happen, right?
That's one aspect. You know, people, I don't mean to sound paranoid, but people can say, you're harassing me, you know, they get really angry, right?
Right. No, I didn't get the impression, I didn't get that kind of fear.
Right. But it still can be, the best case scenario is, you know, it works out or whatever, right?
But there is a scenario which is much more common, which is it's not going to work out, because most dates don't work out, right?
That's why we have so many of them.
Right. And then there's just this awkwardness, right?
Right. And I didn't want that.
Right. So when it comes to trying to figure out whether you want to go on a date with someone, right?
Because you all could be work colleagues and blah, blah, blah, and you can enjoy your iPod exchanges.
It sounds so filthy.
You can enjoy your iPod stuff, and that's not...
That doesn't put you in any particular risk for awkwardness, right?
No. So you had a lot of exposure, relative, right?
I mean, certainly more than you would if you just sort of saw her in a bar, right?
You had months of exposure to her.
You saw her interacting on a social occasion.
You did not deign to interact with her on a social occasion, like the party.
And then you went for lunch and found out that she was boring, right?
Right. And you also say that if she wasn't pretty, you wouldn't have had anything to do with her, right?
Right. Which I'm going to assume that you don't find me pretty, but still we have conversations, right?
Which aren't boring.
They may not always be fun, but they're not boring, right?
Right. So that's possible.
Right. Right. So what were the indications that she was not going to be of interest to you before you went for lunch?
Well, sorry, tell me, how did the asking for lunch come about?
I asked. Yeah, but how did that come about?
She was in your cubicle? Actually, it was on the inter-office IM that we would occasionally chat.
After having first talked, the second time actually, months later.
So, she had walked up and talked to me as I was walking into the building.
We had a conversation about, you know, what's your name again?
I forgot, you know, and...
I forgot your name. Let's go for that.
Okay, go on. She was really interesting.
You probably would have remembered her name.
But anyway, go on. Right.
Yeah, because it had been since that Christmas party, so all the way to, let's say, what comes before May.
All the way to May. So basically it had been like eight or nine months you guys had noticed each other without making a step, right?
Right. I mean, I'm a big fan for Just Do It as far as dating goes.
I try not to let that kind of stuff linger.
I'm a big one for just, I'm going to declare myself and see what happens.
I mean, that's my particular approach, but I mean, everybody has a different approach.
That's scary to me.
Oh, it's scary to me too, for sure.
I just, I'm not real good with suspense.
That's just my particular thing.
And I've had a lot of crash and burns with declaring myself, right?
Let's fly together. Why is there only one of me?
Why am I 10,000 feet off the rocks?
Anyway. Yeah, and that's kind of my reasoning why I didn't continue to pursue after the Christmas party.
Because I was scared to declare myself.
Right. And why were you scared to declare yourself?
This is the RTR question, right?
And you had an answer called, I'm insecure or I'm afraid of rejection, right?
Yeah. Which is not the right answer.
And I think that you didn't get to the right answer because you weren't persistently curious, right?
With yourself. Well, no.
If I had just come up with that answer, then I wouldn't have been curious.
Well, I'm just saying, right?
Because RTR with yourself is the most amazing thing, right?
Without coming up with easy answers like, well, I guess I'm just insecure, right?
Or I guess I'm just afraid of rejection.
Because as it turns out...
You were the rejecting one.
Yeah. Do you see what I mean?
Right. Like, you don't even want her anyway.
Right, so it's so important to ask, and I, God knows I'm not perfect at this, or even close to it myself.
I come up with like 12 to 15 easy answers a day, and I have to keep reminding myself to say, no, I'm not going to take that as an easy answer.
Why did I think this? Why did I feel that?
Oh, because of X. Well...
I don't know. I'm not going to accept that as just, well, that's the way it is.
Right? I thought that answer was actually obvious, but I guess it's not.
Well, I don't think it's obvious.
I don't think it's obvious. Because you say, well, I'm afraid of rejection.
But that implies that you are certain that you absolutely want to go out with her.
Right? Right.
But... If you were certain and wanted to go out with her, you would be making more of an effort to be at least in her orbit, right?
So maybe...
Is it possible that it wasn't that I was afraid of rejection, but that I was afraid of getting entangled in a situation where I'd have to reject her?
Well, that could be it, but even then, that is implying that there's a strong force pulling you towards her.
Right? We still don't know the answer as to why you didn't spend more time talking with her at the Christmas party or before.
Well, I know the emotions at the Christmas party when I first met her was, I was very nervous.
Right, but why?
That's the important question.
And I don't think you want to make up an answer to that.
Because your emotions are trying to help you.
I've, yeah.
I'm just saying.
I always have the answer that I'm afraid to talk to girls because I'm afraid of being rejected.
That was always my answer.
If you were afraid to talk to girls, I'm afraid of sharks, right?
I don't go into shark cages, or I don't swim with sharks.
Well, I guess I have, but only nurse sharks, right?
But I'm afraid of great white sharks, because they're toothy and hungry, and I'm, you know, I've got some good middle-aged white guy flubble, which I'm sure they would like.
You know, seal stuff, right?
And so I don't swim with the sharks, right?
And you're not afraid of talking to girls.
I mean, you're afraid of asking girls out, right?
Yeah. And why are you afraid of asking girls out?
Because you've been really bad at it in the past and it's been really dangerous for you, right?
Right. Does that make sense?
Yes. So it's not just, I mean, it's not just, oh, I'm afraid of rejection.
Well, that's too easy an answer and it's not specific enough, right?
It's because it's general and it's kind of all about you, not about the other person.
And it's not nuanced by the situation that you're in.
Right? Because it's like every time I feel anxiety around asking a girl out, I'm going to say it's because I'm afraid of rejection.
And so I don't ever get to examine the nature of the girl I want to ask out.
It's all about your fears, not about anything to do with her.
I know I'm being really obtuse.
Does that make any sense at all? No, it does make a lot of sense.
And I have that intellectually in my head in the moment when that's happening.
Of what? But I feel so anxious and nervous that I can't get into the mindset of what do I think of her versus what does she think of me.
It's like stuck in what does she think of me.
Right, right. And you know where that comes from, right?
I'm sure. My inability to say no to my mother or reject her or...
Oh...
No? Oh, my friend.
That was just a guess, sorry.
No, no, I mean, I think you're on the right track.
But you're using entirely the wrong language.
Your inability...
Oh, it was wrong.
I was attacked for rejecting my mother.
Right. You were not given the choice to be critical of or to evaluate or to look at whether you liked or didn't like what your mother was doing.
And you didn't have the option.
To provide feedback and to know your own thoughts and feelings while in the presence of your mother, right?
Because it was all just about watch the predator and hope that you don't get attacked and appeased and whatever, right?
It's all about scanning the needs and preferences of the other person rather than being aware of your own needs and preferences and negotiating, right?
Yes. Right?
That's exactly it.
And that's why I asked who was more enthusiastic, right?
Because, and I mean, please understand, I'm with you in the trench with this one, right?
As I am with so many listener issues, because it's a challenge, right?
If we're just used to, and I'm using this because it was your mother who happened to have the more aggressive attitude towards you.
If we're just used to obeying and appeasing women, then all we're doing is we're focusing on their needs, right?
Right. And that brings to mind something I didn't think of.
In every instance where I've been in this position, they are always more enthusiastic.
Right. And so you are used to appeasing women, right?
Right. Not because all women need to be appeased, but that was your history with your mother, right?
Yeah, and that's what kept me in bad relationships, because I was there to be a slave to their needs and preferences.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's certainly one way of putting it, or to put it another way, you were avoiding the pain of having to deal with your past by Simon the Boxer-ing it into the present, right?
Right. Okay.
Alright, so...
So don't, you know, the challenge, right?
I think the significant challenge, and we all struggle with it, I believe, right?
The significant challenge is not to come up with easy answers, right?
Yeah. To remain relentlessly curious with yourself, because you're worth it.
And your emotions are trying to help you.
And you don't want to treat your emotions like your mother treated you, right?
That would be a real tragedy. And say, well, it's because of X, right?
Man, this is kind of mind-blowing.
It's just...
I've always thought my nervousness was about what do they think of me.
And it is. But it's because of the family history, in my amateur opinion.
Right. Because you're not allowed to say, what do I think of this situation?
What would I prefer? And express that.
Right? I remember when I was a kid, I was just thinking about this today, and I can't even remember why, but when I was a kid, I would be irritated or frustrated by what was going on in a family situation.
I remember, I swear to God, it's like half my childhood is a memory of everyone walking, because I was the youngest kid around, everybody was walking faster than I was, On long joints.
And I would be tired.
And, you know, my little legs would be aching.
And I would be saying to everyone, wait, as they would continually pull further and further ahead.
Right. I've been in those situations.
Yeah, it's terrible.
It's horrible. And what would happen is I would get angry and I would get frustrated and I would be upset, obviously, right?
And what would happen is then my mom or my brother or whatever, they would say, oh, he's just tired.
Right.
He's he's he's got no reason to be upset.
He's just mysteriously fatigued, right?
Right. That would be an easy answer, right?
As opposed to, why is this family not taking into account the fact that I'm the shortest and Littlest kid around and is marching off in these, right?
I remember when I was with my dad in Africa when I was 16.
He, you know, I wasn't a particularly healthy kid when I was 16.
I started exercising a little bit later.
And, of course, he, you know, he walks for a living.
It's his job, right? And we went on this couple-of-day hike, and we climbed like, it was like 2,000 or 3,000 feet in one day, climbing up these And it was exhausting.
And he just kind of plowed ahead, you know.
He just kept going, right?
And he'd be this little dot way up there and he'd be like, what the hell?
You freak, right?
You fly me out here and then you race.
It's just weird, right? Just weird stuff that you don't...
It's hard to understand until later, right?
What did you conclude about it at the time?
Oh, about it... I was actually upset with it at the time.
I just thought it was kind of jerky.
I also thought that, and this sometimes happens with dads.
See, I would have thought, for me, if I were in that situation at that age, I would have thought there's something wrong with me.
No, but I see my dad, I mean, I thought he was, and this happens sometimes, I've seen this, and I actually wrote about this in The God of Atheists, the scene with Alder and Stephen by the campfire, is that I think he was actually, it sounds weird, I think he was actually showing off.
Showing off. Like, look how fit I am.
Right. I think it was at that level.
Yeah, I remember you telling this.
I thought that maybe I would be impressed by the fact that he was fit.
Like, that's what I was looking for.
Not a father, but a good cardiovascular system.
I mean, it's weird. I didn't laugh about it, but it was...
Right. Right? So, it just seemed weird.
I mean, at that point in my life, I mean, it wasn't like I raised any stink, right?
I was just trying to get by day to day.
But those kinds of easy answers, I think, oh, he's just tired, or, you know, oh, I'm just insecure around women or whatever.
I think that those are not good answers.
And I think they're kind of self-deprecatory, if that makes sense.
Huh, yeah. And it's also saying that my emotions are dysfunctional.
Right, right. But they're not!
Like, if you felt really nervous around this woman and she turned out to be just a wonderful fit for you and a really great person and so on, then you'd get to say, well, that was no reason to be that nervous, right?
Yeah. But given that she turned out to be boring and now it's kind of awkward and you shouldn't have gone that road to begin with, doesn't the nervousness make sense?
Yeah, I guess so.
You sound convinced, but not.
No, I'm not actually completely convinced because I don't understand, you know, why nervous around a boring person?
Like, that doesn't seem to fit.
No, you're not nervous around a boring person.
I mean, because lots of boring people in the world, right?
Nervous around a dissociated person.
Well, that could be the case as well, but lots of dissociated people, and I bet you she was dissociated when you guys were just flirting.
Oh, but you were nervous then too, or even at the Christmas party, right?
But you didn't feel dissociated when you were in, or did you feel nervous when she was in your office?
No, I didn't feel that, yeah, I did feel a little anxious.
But not like, right?
No, not to the same degree that I did at the Christmas thing.
Right, right, okay. But what you are afraid of is not a dissociated person, in my opinion, is not a boring person, because these things aren't, well, dissociation can be an indicator of aggression.
A precursor to aggression, but it's not always the case.
It can be. Or it certainly does represent someone who's out of touch with themselves, who's lacking empathy for themselves.
And of course, if they're lacking empathy for themselves, they will lack empathy for others and will be more prone to harsh...
It can be more prone to harsh behavior, again, in my opinion and experience.
But I don't think that was it.
No, because I don't think she was dissociated during that very first interaction at the Christmas thing.
Right, so what were you nervous about?
Do you want me to ask questions or do you want to?
Yeah, it's like looking for something small in a haystack and I'm not even sure what that is.
Sure. No, that's perfectly reasonable.
And is the conversation useful so far?
I mean, what we're talking about? Oh, yeah.
I mean, this is mind-blowing that it's not the quote-unquote obvious answer that I thought it always was.
But if I can cut the amount of time I spend and avoid these situations more quickly and Yeah, you want to save yourself, you know, for the right person.
And you also want to have self-trust, right?
Right. Because we view, so often we will view our anxiety as like it's an enemy or like it's a dysfunction or like something's broken.
But I really don't find that to be the case.
I mean, it doesn't mean that it's automatically accurate, but it's definitely something to keep asking questions about, right?
Yeah, getting to the point...
Where I can trust...
Because at least, you know, I'm to the point where I trusted my emotional experience during lunch and I didn't...
And I used that to evaluate my experience of her because before, you know, I wouldn't have even been able to do that.
I would not have, you know...
Luckily, I had my therapist, you know...
Yeah, I mean, right now, you guys would be on your fourth date, right?
Right, right.
So I've gotten it down to the first date.
Lunch date, you know?
Yeah, that's fantastic. Look, I mean, this is huge progress.
I think you should be enormously proud, and I know that those 22 or 23 months is hell, but let me ask some questions then, and we'll see if we can't tease out what you might have been nervous about.
Okay. Was she wearing any crosses?
No. All right.
What is her cultural background?
I have...
I had trouble guessing what...
What her ethnical...
She looks like a cross between either Hispanic or Mediterranean or something.
I think it's Mediterranean.
Okay. So I would guess that her family is probably...
I would guess that either her father or her mother is Mediterranean.
Alright. And do you know where she grew up?
She grew up...
Oh crap, I forgot.
I think it was here in Easton.
But the States, right?
Yeah, in the States. Okay.
Yeah, she grew up in America.
I mean, she was born here, so...
And does she ever been married?
No. No, she's never been married?
No. Okay. Do you know if she's had any major relationships?
Yes. Yeah, I think she did mention that she had a relationship a long time ago, but not any time recently.
And what happened to that relationship?
I didn't probe.
Well, it's not probing, that's asking, right?
Right. Is that appropriate to ask that question?
I think if you can ask it without sounding weird, yeah, I think so.
I think it's appropriate. Oh, okay.
I've always thought it kind of something for later, you know?
No, no, no, no. I mean, in my opinion, no.
I think you want to get these important questions out the way.
The first date is no time for small talk.
Not when you're over 30, in my opinion.
Because, you know, time's ticking away.
Like I remember I went out with a girl and she said she had this relationship with this guy for two years and they were living together and I said, oh, what happened?
You say, oh, what happened? And she said, oh, it's really weird.
He just up and moved away.
Like I came home one day and he just packed up all his stuff and he'd moved out.
And to this day, I have no idea what happened.
Jack! Yeah, exactly.
Right? Yeah, that's not a good sign.
Right, because there's no self-criticism, no.
I mean, that's just... Yeah, way to have it happen again, right?
No responsibility. There's, like, no theory at all, then she didn't even examine it.
Oh, yeah, that's just it. I mean, even if he left without, you know, I'm leaving because you did this, she would at least have a theory...
Right, or I saw these signs which I didn't know at the time, or whatever, right?
Right. So, okay.
Yeah, and she's...
And let's see, what else do I know about her?
I didn't find out until later, because she wears these shirts that are long sleeve.
And I don't know why she does that during the summer, even.
But apparently she has tattoos on her arm.
So I didn't see those until...
Even after the lunch thing.
And do you know anything about her upbringing?
Let's see.
Oh, this was another thing that made me realize after the lunch thing that it was a really bad idea to continue.
She had said something about being in therapy for manic depression.
Yeah.
Yeah. What do we have?
Two minutes here? Yeah, and then even after that, I mean, this was after the lunch thing, so this is after I basically decided that this was not a good experience.
But then she comes to my office after a few days after I kind of just sort of tried to back away.
And starts telling me how mean she was in these customer service jobs she was in.
It's like, are you trying to sell me on something, you know?
What was that about?
So, you know, that was definitely the point where I was just like, okay.
I need to really back off.
Okay. Okay.
So... In summary, we have a girl who didn't, a woman obviously, who seemed to express interest but didn't make a move for months and months, and then who didn't interact with you in particular at the Christmas party, who dropped by a little bit and talked about inconsequential things, iPod applications, right?
But you know what I mean, right?
It's not exactly putting your best foot forward with someone.
Right. Right. Maybe it's a geek mating call?
No, it's not a geeky call at all.
It's lack of social skills.
But anyway, that doesn't really matter.
But the point is that it really wasn't scintillating conversation.
It was okay, right? Vaguely interesting, but not scintillating, right?
Oh, and she, just to add to the pile of things that...
She used to be a he, and she had a dorsal fin, and 12 fingers coming out of her nose.
Okay, go on. Yeah, I got the impression that she has social anxiety, too, because she says this pool thing is the first thing she's done for a long time.
This was her attempt to get out and make friends.
So that was a clue that A clue, right, okay.
Yeah. It's more than a clue, but okay.
A smoking gun is more than a clue, but okay.
Right. So, have all this...
Are you there?
Yeah. Okay.
Hoping this thing doesn't run out of batteries.
I think we're close to the end, but go ahead.
Yeah, I think so too. So, what is...
The Christmas party. Nervous.
Yeah. Everybody knows everything.
Why? Because you knew.
So... I know.
It's weird, but it's true.
Because I knew she was...
How would I have known?
Like, how...
Because we can't, you know, 90% of all communication is nonverbal.
That's why I'm doing the Macarena right now, and badly.
90% of all communication is nonverbal.
So from that first moment where she smiled at me, I smiled back in the hallway passing by.
It's body posture, it's eye contact, it's facial tension, it's where the hands are, So you mean if I don't feel nervous, is when I'm in the right direction?
No, no, forget about not feeling nervous right now.
We're just trying to process the nervousness, right?
We can get to the non-nervousness after we've processed the lifelong nervousness, right?
Right. Okay, so let's just focus on this right now, okay?
Right. You know that Shakespearean quote, the course of true love never did run smooth?
That's nonsense. The course of true love does run smooth, right?
Because there's no games. Anyway, so...
Right. But you knew.
which is why you didn't make an approach.
I've had people write to me and said, I turned off your podcast after the first five seconds because you were insufferable.
Thank you.
What? It's true!
And I'm like, I write them back and I say, I think that was very wise.
I think that you made the right decision there.
Yeah, they saw where the dominoes fell from the very first five seconds.
They knew, they knew, they knew, right?
The happiness in your voice?
I don't know. Yeah, I mean, the happiness, the attitude, the freedom, of course that's not how they would characterize it, but yeah, absolutely.
Oh, you're so full of yourself.
They're enraged at the fact that I'm so arrogant and such a pompous and such a know-it-all and so certain and amateurish.
Endless projection. Yeah, you know all this nonsense, right?
Now, an intelligent person and a self-aware person would say, my emotional reaction to five seconds of podcasting seems a little strong.
I wonder if that may not be something else going on, right?
But because they are projecting so wildly, then it's clear that this is not the right conversation for them, right?
And they know that, and they're annoyed at that, and that's why they're angry, right?
So, in this particular...
Sorry, to call me arrogant when they're dismissing me after five seconds is insane, right?
Yeah. I mean, that's crazy.
I mean, there's... I got lots of faults, no question, right?
But I actually...
People are pretty humble.
I mean, I'm very humble, actually.
And I know that always sort of shocks people.
It doesn't mean that I don't think I'm doing really important and good work, but...
Well, no. I mean, it's...
That's sheer arrogance to say that they know exactly...
How arrogant you are in the first five seconds.
I mean, isn't it kind of just pure projection?
It is. It is. But it means that they mistake the world for themselves.
If they're able to so seamlessly project their own emotional state onto me, then this conversation is not going to do them any good.
And it sure as hell isn't going to do me or my listeners or my board members any good, right?
So I think that's why I say it's very wise, right?
Right. There's a guy who just posted on YouTube.
He said, can you explain to me why you deleted my comment and why you delete comments unsubscribed?
Right? Like, this is a big punishment if it goes from 7,000 to 690, right?
And to me, it's like, A, I didn't delete any comments that I could recall, and B, you won't be missed.
It's like, oh, you're leaving?
Please, you know, I want you to stay because you're such a pleasant company, right?
So... This is the, you know, people storm out, you know, without realizing that the same people left behind breathe a huge sigh of relief.
Right. I'm leaving!
Right? Well, what's that thing with Jon Stewart when Rush Limbaugh was leaving New York where he says, hey, here's my easy pass.
Head the I-96 to the Lincoln Tunnel and get the fuck out of here.
Let me help you. But anyway, let's get back to you.
Enough about me, right?
So you knew, you knew, you knew, you knew, you're a genius.
Everybody's a genius and everybody's a philosopher and everybody knows everything already.
And you can believe that, you cannot believe that, but in this case, you were right.
Right? Because I'm nervous to ask this girl out, and it turns out to be kind of a disaster, right?
Not because the date was boring.
I mean, that's just a bullet everyone takes once in a while, but because you get this situation, right?
Right. Well, you've got a woman who's talked about a mental illness, who's attracted to you, and is hurt, and works with you, and right?
You were right! And yet you said, I'm broken.
Right? Right, because I'm nervous because I'm...
Because I'm afraid of rejection and I've got all these answers, right?
Right. Well, what if you're wrong about being wrong?
Right? I know this is like, what, 50, 60 minutes in.
I still don't...
It would help to know exactly why I was nervous.
I mean, I understand that it was because somehow I picked up on body language all these countless signals, the temperature in the room.
I don't know. It's just all these signals.
Not the temperature in the room, right?
Unless it's actually a witch.
Right. But eye movement.
Facial tics.
Well, but you go into the same room with her again, or you see her, and you look for it with the new eyes, right?
I mean, I can't say to you what you saw, but I bet you can see it if you look for it again.
Okay.
Hello? I can't give you that blink stuff, right?
Because it was your experience.
But I can tell you that it is not my opinion that 90% of communication is nonverbal.
That is fairly well confirmed, or at least about as well confirmed as anything in psychology can be.
Okay, so the nervousness...
I felt nervous about every girl I was going out with until...
Christina.
And then it was easy peasy.
After the second date we spent every single day together until we got married and now she can't get away.
But aren't some internal processes like me being worried about what she thinks of me being in that state of mind with my history wasn't the cause of my nervousness but rather what I thought of her was the cause of my nervousness.
What? Okay, sorry, that's a little unclear.
No wonder you're confused. Sorry.
What? So, like, the fear of what she thought of me wasn't the cause of my nervousness.
My history wasn't the cause of my nervousness.
But rather, something she was telling me and what I unconsciously knew about her was the cause of my nervousness.
Well, that's where I would look first.
I would not assume that everything, right, as I said before, right, the whole point of what we're doing here and the whole point of understanding the past is to be able to empirically live in the present and so be able to accurately predict the future, right?
Yes. Now, it could be that you're nervous because of your mother and this and that and the other, but the thing is that your nervousness around your mother was not invented, it was not manufactured, it was not imaginary, it was damn right, she was dangerous, right?
Yes. So, from that aspect, you started off with a very productive, empirical understanding, right?
So, if you got bitten by a wolf, you're going to be cautious around wolves for the rest of your life, and you should be, right?
Yes. But that doesn't mean that every time you see a cockatoo, you think, oh my god, a wolf, and dive under the couch, right?
It means that you're imprinted with caution towards wolves.
Now, sometimes a big dog will alarm you and so on, but that's close enough that, right?
I mean, if you see a fin in the water, you don't wait to see if it's a dolphin before getting out of the water, right?
But to completely mangle your metaphor...
That's okay, I'm doing a good job myself, so why not?
Jump in. I have always been nervous around my mother, therefore I'm nervous around all women.
No, no. That is to say that the unconscious has no capacity to discriminate.
That now, it's like boobs will kill you, right?
Right. But you do have the power to discriminate, right?
So, you were much more relaxed at the second barbecue than you were at the first, right?
Right. Right.
Because you're in a situation where you're not going to be attacked, and so you relax, right?
Now, I'm not saying it immediately happens 100%, but you can discriminate, right?
Yeah, I'm definitely...
Each experience with Philadelphia barbecue and the symposium, the other barbecue, all those experiences are helping me to compare and contrast my experiences of other people.
So... Yeah, I can discriminate.
Right, you can discriminate.
Do you feel nervous around Christina?
God, no. Not even a little?
Because she can be a little scary. She's fierce.
Right, but you don't feel nervous around Christina, right?
No. Like in last time Isabella checked, the boob factor is still there.
Right, right.
So you have the capacity to discriminate.
You don't feel that Christina is going to fly into a rage and humiliate you at a moment's notice, right?
Right. So, it's not all women, right?
No. Christina is a woman, because if she's not, the fact that I have a daughter means that this surgery has advanced in ways that I couldn't even consider.
Okay, but here's something to throw a wrench into this.
Wrench away! Because I'm all about that.
Do it! Christina is someone I know, and...
this person I had just met.
Sorry, did you just cut out there?
Yeah, I'm sorry. Christina is someone I've known for, what, three years now?
And this girl, Jamie, was somebody I had just met.
Right. Sure, I understand that, but it still means that it's not all women, right?
It's just dangerous women, right?
Because you're like, well, maybe I'm just scared of women because of my mother.
It's like, but if you've got one woman you're not scared of, then it's not all women, right?
It's not pathological. But what if it's all women that I just met?
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be disappointed.
Oh, no, that's fine. Well, what that means is that the first time you met Christina, you would have been nervous, right?
I wonder if I... Let's see, that was at the table at the symposium.
Right, so the first time you met Christina, you're like, shit, is she armed?
Is she packing? It's probably not a very big gun, but it could be one.
I honestly, I don't remember feeling anxious at all when I first met you.
Right. Okay, now I still somewhat fall into the category of boobs, but we're really talking about Christina here, right?
Right. But then again, I came in thinking it's like I've known this guy forever or something, you know.
So right now you're just...
Yeah, I just ruined it.
Sorry. Well, if I imagine that I've known them forever, you understand, right?
But the first time you met Christina, or if you want to go back, the first time that you heard Christina on a show or whatever, right?
Did you feel right? You can go right back to when you first heard it, right?
Did you feel right?
No. No, so it's not all women, right?
And your instincts were correct, because you weren't like, oh, that Christina, she's really dangerous, just like every other woman.
And then after you've known her for a while, that begins to diminish because you did not feel nervous up front, right?
Right. So you're not afraid.
You don't look at a cockatoo and see a wolf, right?
You see a wolf and you see a wolf, right?
Let's see if I can come up with any other reasons not to trust my emotions.
Well, you know, that's not you doing that.
That's your mother, right?
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Yeah, so since December, there have been six women, I think. No, make that seven now, because the girl at the dodgeball thing, who also kind of turned out the same.
So seven people who I've slowly whittled down from...
Two encounters to one encounter to what I want to get it down to now, which is the first ten seconds.
Right. And that, of course, is...
I mean, there's some magic to philosophy.
There's some stuff that's basic.
This is just a matter of concentration, right?
Which is to say, I'm not going to figure out whether this woman...
And look, men are biologically...
We're not designed to say no, right?
Right. Yeah, because, I mean...
We're not, right? Because we're like random seed sprayers, frankly, right?
I mean, we're not biologically designed to be highly discriminating.
It's like, availability equals yay!
Right? So, we're not...
Right, and my hormones, you know, are going to flood when I see some really attractive girl, and it's going to be...
Right, I understand that.
But of course, I mean, the story goes, whether it's true or not, right, that women are attracted to rougher looking types of men on particular aspects of their monthly cycle.
But we still don't say, you know, and therefore go to a biker bar and have at it, right?
I mean, we just, we say that these are the hormones and so on, but we have choice and we have standards and we have values.
Right. Because what's happening at the moment is you are, you know...
This is rank theorizing, right?
right?
But if I had to say, in my amateur opinion, I would say that what's happening at the moment is you are empathizing with their need to be attractive, and you are supplying that without regard to your own concerns and values and preferences.
But that does sound like slower applications in Than the blink thing, because that's...
Where is it?
I know this sounds confusing.
Just a moment. Let me try to figure out how to clarify.
Okay, I meet a girl at volleyball tonight, let's say.
Sorry, just try...
There's a little application you can get from the store.
It's called iFog. Let's say I meet a new girl that comes to my volleyball game tonight.
And she's really attractive.
Attractive? Are you talking in your way or are you talking in like a real way?
In a...
I guess in a physical way because, I mean...
I don't know how else to put it.
So you don't have any standards to judge women other than physical appearance?
Well, I do. But that comes after I figure out who they are.
So what you're saying is that you've been applying this principle to figure out who they are.
How's that been working? So I should go after the ones I'm not attracted to?
No. You should listen to your instincts.
Right? You observe.
You watch carefully. You listen deeply.
You say, how do I feel when I see this person?
Right? What does my gut tell me?
me?
What do my instincts tell me?
That's a little frustrating to think about because in the moment my gut says, I'm asking you to think a little higher than the bow-chicka-wow-wow, which is further down, right?
Right. So you say, do I feel safe around this person?
Do I feel secure around this person?
Do I feel confused?
By and around this person.
Do I feel uncertain?
Do I not know where we stand?
Do I feel like I don't understand what she's saying?
Is there emotional continuity with this person?
In other words, are they upset about one thing and then happy about pretty much the same thing two minutes later, right?
Does it feel random?
Do I feel... Like I have to really be alert and pay attention because I'm not sure what's going on.
That sounds so complicated.
You know, it's really, really simple because it's around self-RTR. It's really simple.
How do I feel around this person?
Because then you're not trying to figure out what they're all about.
You're not just solely focusing on them and their needs and your boner, right?
I mean, but you're actually trying to say to yourself, how do I feel around this person?
Shh. And can this moment of consideration...
Is this after I first talked to them?
No, it's from the moment that you first see them.
The moment I first saw Christina, she was dressed in a shirt that would make Kobe Bryant look large on Kobe Bryant, right?
And she had these leggings on.
I think her shirt came down to roughly her knees.
Yeah. She was 5'2 on a volleyball court with some truly gigantic men.
Right? She was eager and smiling and a little scared because it was new for her.
That's the first moment that I saw her.
And the impression that I got was A. She's not using her looks because she's obviously in a tent.
She's Nervous, which means she's not an expert volleyball player, but she's willing to come out and play volleyball anyway, which means she's got courage and curiosity and is willing to try new things.
She's also got courage because this is, you know, imagine playing volleyball with people three times your size, right?
Or two times your size.
It would be pretty scary, right?
I saw that she was both eager and nervous and vulnerable, which meant that she was able to experience those emotions without freaking out.
There wasn't false bravado, there wasn't cockiness, there wasn't that girly, what about my nails?
else that was me really but but just so I understand right there was a huge amount of information that she provided when I just saw her for the first time all right and of course you're in Canada so the baggy clothes are okay No, because some of the volleyball players, myself included, were dressed like total whores.
Oh. It must have been summertime or something.
No, it was winter. No, but it's indoor, right?
Oh, indoors. Okay.
I was picturing a sand court because I go to the sand court tonight and It's blazing hot.
I mean, everybody's got their shirt off except for the women, of course.
Right. No, this was indoors, right?
Because teacher doesn't work so much in Canada.
You can do summer here, right?
You can do volleyball, but...
Right.
And she was friendly to other people, but she wasn't eager over solicitors.
She was, you know, she asked questions of people and...
You know, she was kind and curious and all that, right?
And so this was when I hadn't exchanged a word with her.
So you were consciously evaluating her, or was this something you thought of in hindsight?
I was just starting to work on these kinds of theories.
So I did really want to be aware of my experience of people.
But I wasn't sitting there, you know, with that Terminator scanner thing going on in my eyeballs, right?
So all of this that you just told me that you had known about, or this is something you realized in hindsight?
No, no, no. I felt that in the moment, but I didn't sit there and say, check, check, check, check, check, right?
Oh, okay. If that makes any sense.
No, because...
Well, you know, because look, you can experience happiness, right?
If you experience happiness, you can do so without analyzing the causes, right?
So if I laugh at a joke that a comedian says, I don't have to sit there and come up with a theory of humor...
In order to experience the joke, right?
So if I experience pleasure and curiosity and admiration of Christina when I first see her, I don't have to bullet point everything, right?
Right. Huh.
And you also want someone, I would suggest, in your life who's going to do the same thing, who's going to say, how do I feel around this person, around you?
Rather than someone who's trying to impress you or manipulate you or turn you on or reject you or level you or just do some utility emotional crap self-management stuff with, right?
That's basically...
I don't think I've experienced anything but that.
Of course you have.
Just not on your volleyball court in Texas, right?
Maybe. But you've experienced that when you come to barbecue or talked after FDR. Oh yeah, yeah.
And I'm not saying this is the only place, but I'm just saying you have experienced that, right?
Right. Yeah.
So I do have something to compare it to.
That's... Yeah. That's the real benefit of these barbecue things.
I think the greatest one is the comparison.
Absolutely. The knowing that it is possible, right?
Right. And if only there were some actual barbecue food.
Yeah, then it would actually be not a falsified...
A meditative lie! I know, I know.
And see, you can even be defrauded and feel full.
Wow, this is insightful because...
I can almost be the Terminator now.
Well, you can be who you are with someone, because if all you're doing is focusing on your penis and their preferences, right?
Right? In pee cocktail.
You're not actually yourself, right?
You're a penis and a complier.
But you're not who you are.
And anyone who is who they are will not be that interested if you are, you know, penis and appeaser, right?
The penis or I don't know, something like that.
I think that's the part I'm going to be struggling with.
I mean, not to... It's not a struggle, right?
No? No, it's not.
You just have to say, how do I feel around this person?
I mean, it can be a struggle to remember to do it, but once you remember to do it, then it's not so much of a struggle, right?
Because if you immediately characterize it as a struggle, then it's going to be like, great, another 50-pound thing to haul up the hill, right?
Every time I encounter someone, I'm going to have to be like, down, boy, down, down, no!
No, no, because one of the things that you feel is horny.
Right. Right, but that's a reality, right?
It's sexually attracted or sexually excited.
That's one of the things that you feel.
But it's not the only thing that you feel, obviously, right?
No. No, and I don't want that to get in the way.
That has also gotten in the way.
And I think that's one of the things that has also gotten me into these bad relationships.
Sure, sure, sure.
Sure, because if you start off without processing your own experience, without being who you are with people, then it's false self and the crypts of history.
It's not about the mountains of the future, right?
Right. It's dead before it.
Dead love walking, right?
So the initial...
Just to re-summarize the whole thing, to make sure I got all this right.
When I first called it, it was about how do I separate my feelings when I'm trying to reject someone, but this is...
Well, you asked for prevention, right?
You asked for prevention, not...
Yeah, prevention. Right. So that's what we're doing.
So here's the prevention.
Right, here's the prevention. How do I feel when I'm around this person?
And you can practice. You can look on the board and say, how do I feel when this person has first posted?
Or how do I feel when I read this post?
I'm not saying it means that you're automatically right.
But you have to know what you feel first.
Because if you don't, then it'll just influence what you're doing and you won't be aware of it.
It doesn't mean that your feelings are automatically right.
I'm pretty keen on them being pretty right.
But it doesn't mean that emotions are not tools of cognition.
But... It is very, very essential.
It's completely essential that you know what you feel when you first meet someone.
And then continue to check in with how you feel when you continue to see them.
And I tell you, being a parent makes that incredibly, incredibly clear.
Because babies are pretty much incapable of that kind of manipulation.
So when I walk into a room and Isabella sees me, what is her...
Response, right? I mean, how does she respond?
She's very much in touch with her experience of me, right?
I don't think she's particularly in touch with my experience of her because she's still so young, but she's very much in touch with her experience of me.
And that's my gauge, right?
Because you can't talk and all that.
So if she lights up, then you know you're doing something right.
Yeah, if she lights up and kicks and squeals with joy and reaches for me and so on, gives me a big smile when I come in to get her in the morning, then...
You know, things aren't going too badly, right?
Right. And that's where we start.
What is my experience, right?
Wow, this is going to save me a lot of time, I think.
It's always amazing, and this is very true, right?
I mean, it's that... This is nothing new, right?
I've said all this stuff a dozen times before, but it's hard to sometimes put it into the context of our actual life.
And, you know, I don't have a lot of time to save.
I'm 35 now.
Yeah, dude, I mean, seriously, you've got to be very efficient in this process.
Because you're looking for a bit of a needle in a haystack, right?
So you're a 35-year-old guy.
You're going to have to date someone relatively close to you in age, right?
I mean, a lot younger and it's just not going to be the same life experience.
And older, you know, you may not be able to have kids if that's what you want, right?
Or she may not be able to. So you've got to be, you know, just ruthlessly efficient, right?
Right. You know, it's just like, next!
Right? Just think of that Seinfeld episode with the soup Nazi, right?
She leans up on the counter at the end.
Next! Right?
You're done, soup Nazi.
You can actually say that to women and they quite appreciate that.
You're done, soup Nazi.
Next! Right? Hey, have yourself a big bite of exit stew.
Sorry. Coming up with wildly inappropriate ways to deal with these things.
But no, you've got to be very, very efficient because you're looking for a woman who's in her 30s, who's single, who's available, who's not mental, right?
Right. That's...
That's really... That's taking some...
Because if she's in her 30s and she's not...
Yeah, she's either mental or she's just too good for men, right?
In which case, you want to be that man she's not too good for, right?
Right. And that's why it's just ruthless, man.
It's just like... It's just ruthless.
Yeah. If you want these things.
I mean, I think you do if I remember our conversations prior.
Or at least you want to have the option, right?
The option? To, you know, have a family or whatever if you want to get married and these sorts of things.
Yes, I do want kids.
Right. Right.
So for you, it's like, you know, given that you know what the tightness of the schedule is, the fact that you're spending...
Six months smiling.
Do you understand from the outside?
That looks completely insane.
Like you have 12 lifetimes to make these decisions.
I'll keep smiling at the same woman for a couple of months and then I'll see her at a Christmas party and then maybe in the May I'll ask her out and it's like, dude!
You know what I mean? You're like the guy in the Titanic and he's up to his chest in water and he's like, okay, maybe just 12 more drinks and then I'll start heading upstairs, right?
Right. Never mind.
I just answered my own question.
Excellent. That's what we want.
Yeah. I didn't want to go in circles.
All right.
All right. This is great.
Great call. I mean, that's a great question.
And I always really appreciate your openness.
Honesty in these calls. I think it was well done.
And your feedback?
Useful to you? Productive?
Very. Productive is definitely the word for it.
Fantastic. And if anyone else, there's a couple of people in the chat window if they wanted to.
If you guys want to provide any feedback or comments, you know the process of continuous improvement at FDR remains the goal and the ideal.
Yeah. Just the fact that you do that is like, It's like, I expect every time you say something about, you know, some economic theory for you to end it with, doesn't it, Sweetums?
The TweetEm, absolutely.
The gold standard is much better, isn't it, TweetEm?
Isn't it, Sweetums? That's right.
That's right. Who's got teeth now, Sweetums?
Yeah, she's just got her lower teeth that's starting to come in.
She's bladed, aren't you?
She's got cheese.
Anyway, sorry, as I continue my parenting while we're on the call.
Okay, good. Well, I think that's a great call.
I'll obviously send you a copy. Let me know.
I think this would be helpful for others, but have a listen.
Yeah, general stream.
All right. Pump it out there.
All right. Thanks, man.
Keep me posted. Okay.
All right. Thank you. Bye.
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