All Episodes
Previous Next
June 28, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:21:47
1405 Sunday Show June 27, 2009

What is the difference between irritation and anger?

| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
Good afternoon, everybody.
Hope you're doing well. It's Steph.
It is a little after four on Sunday, June the 28th, 2009.
Thank you so much for joining in.
Yesterday did, oh heavens, five hours on air.
And those shows are available or will be available shortly in the feed.
In particular, you might want to check out the podcast 1404.
I was on the Peter Mack show.
I'm Peter Mack. Is a college professor who is switching over to attempt a radio show.
He's done it once before.
He's trying it again. And I was on with Locke and Rose, who I will be speaking with in Philadelphia in just six days, I suppose.
And we actually talked about psychology and family and statism and freedom.
And it was...
A nice, tasty three-hour chat about those topics.
And there was, as is somewhat surprising to me, a similar confluence of opinion, which was nice.
So you might want to check that out.
It was very nice to be able to speak about that sort of stuff in such a public way.
I hope that since this was his very first show...
I hope that we did not ensure that it would be his last.
So, I hope that you will check it out and support his show if you like it.
It's a Peter Mack show. So, other than that, I guess, well, it's kind of sad that Mickey J died, right?
Michael Jackson died this week, of course.
And, of course, given the man was slender and healthy and so on, it would seem that it would be unlikely if drugs were not You know, that sort of thing that happens to very talented people.
I think it's worth just taking a moment to think about that, because there is that kind of stuff that goes on with the very talented people.
That we all have this desire, at least I remember, I guess I was...
When did someone type it into the chat?
When did Thriller come out? 1982?
1983? 1981?
The early 80s, for sure.
And... 82...
And it was, of course, everybody wanted...
I was working in a daycare at the time, and all the kids wanted, you know, one spangly glove.
You could even buy those one spangly gloves, which a friend of mine did, and his mother later turned it into a gardening glove.
And everybody wanted those funky V-shaped leather jackets and put entirely too much product in their hair and so on.
And he really was considered to be the envy of the world, and isn't that...
Something that's sad in a way, right?
The adulation of a singular talent.
And the man was singularly talented in the realm of music.
I mean, like a very sort of young Elvis, he had that absolute synchronicity between the voice, the facial expressions, and the embodiment of the music in his dancing.
It was flawless.
He had the incredibly quick-fire electric light muscles required for that kind of very, very...
It's sinuous and twitchy dance style, and it was a great entertainer and a great singer, underrated as a singer.
I mean, he had a really high countertenor, and it's very tough to have a singing voice that does that kind of breathy softness, but also can do that kind of Motown yowl that gives real soul to the performance.
Freddie Mercury had one of those voices as well, and Michael Jackson did, and if you hear him, of course, singing when he was eight or nine years old.
Absolutely staggering, the music and the moves, even back then.
I didn't know about his career when Thriller came out, but it really was just astounding how he embodied music and rhythm and passion and had a really electrifying presence on stage.
I posted on the board a performance of his at the 84 Grammys.
I think it was at the 86 Grammys where he's doing Man in the Mirror with a Gospel Choir.
It gives you goosebumps.
Of course, the shadow of strangeness fell over the man pretty heavily and possible criminality.
I didn't follow any of the pedophilia charges.
I know that they were never conclusively proved and that the people who were after him seemed to be somewhat malevolent.
In my own small way, I'm a little skeptical of trial by jury, but I'm also skeptical of trial by state, and so we have a very tough time figuring out what happened.
Clearly, there was a desperate desire On the part of Michael Jackson to attempt to bypass the suffering of what, in many ways, was a vile and brutalized childhood.
I mean, his father has confessed to whipping him, not just beating him, but whipping Michael Jackson.
And so he had, of course, his childhood was, you know, cattle prodded into the spotlight of fame.
And this is not to say that he didn't enjoy the music.
Of course he did, otherwise he would have become an accountant.
But He had a very violent and abused childhood.
And if you look at sort of the Neverland Ranch and what he was attempting to recreate, it sort of reminds me of the character in The Fountainhead.
I can't remember the name, but the guy who wanted to recreate the house, the big house in the town that he grew up with, the proof to everyone that he had beaten them.
And to attempt to recreate that which was missing in the past in the present...
is a surefire way to never get over it, to never get past it.
So he had this brutalized childhood and for child stars of course they have this fame and this adulation but a lot of the natural and normal playtime And the frivolity of childhood is just not present, right?
They have a lot of responsibility and a lot of pressure is put on them, right?
Because a lot of people will make a lot of money off you if you are a very talented child.
I mean, you hold bags of money in your pudgy little hands, although I guess his were never pudgy.
And so there's a lot of pressure, a lot of control, a lot of product placement, a lot of grooming, a lot of investment is placed upon you.
So the natural carefree aspect of childhood is not really present.
And so if you combine that, the pressure, the amount of money floating around him, and also include the brutalizing on the part of his father through whipping, you have in many ways a very unhappy childhood.
And unfortunately, that does seem to be bound up in talent in many ways, right?
I mean, we can go through that perhaps later.
Another time, but I think one of the things that is so tragic about that is that he needed to go back and experience the suffering and the pain of himself as a child, but that would have run counter to the money-making machine that was around him.
And so he ended up, due to his talent, which partly came out of his trauma, I would say, due to his talent, he drew all of these people around him Who required his talents to continue.
And therefore, they would not have encouraged him to do that, which was necessary, which was to revisit the pain of his past, to work through it, and to move beyond it.
And so, trapped in this money machine, right, in this gilded cage, he attempted to do the best he could in a self-healing manner.
This is all speculation, of course, and what do I know, right?
But this is just my thoughts on it.
He attempted to struggle to heal himself and By trying to give himself a happy childhood in his 30s and his 40s by creating a play world, right?
A fantasy world where he had, I don't know what, chimpanzees and llamas and ferris wheels and video games and paintball.
So he attempted to create a happy childhood later in life which doesn't work.
It doesn't work at all because that...
That time is gone, and the attempt to relive a happy childhood in the present does not help because it is an attempt to bypass the necessary suffering and loss and grieving of having been robbed of that, which can never be recreated or reproduced.
It is, as I've mentioned before, if you don't get enough calcium when you're a kid, you end up with brittle bones, and eating four pounds of calcium a day when you're 30 doesn't change that one little bit.
So it's like stopping smoking after you've already got lung cancer.
It doesn't really help you.
In fact, it does quite the opposite.
And so he burned his money up and he burned his legal piece up in this attempt to recreate later in life that which was necessary for him when he was very young.
But it doesn't work. We have to face, if we had those kinds of childhoods, we have to face that there is no solution.
We did not get what we desperately needed and we got that which we desperately did not want or need.
We did not get the nurturing, the love, the protection, but we got the violence and the control.
And so much of life, so much of the ills that occur in life simply happen because people wish to find a way to avoid that pain.
They wish to find a way to avoid the genuine suffering that occurs.
So I think that it's really, really important that we understand that we can't rationally or legitimately bypass the suffering of whatever it is But even if we have all of the resources, all of the money, all of the talent, all of the material possessions that we could imagine, which, of course, Michael Jackson, multi-millionaire, he could get anything he wanted, do anything he wanted.
Even if we had all of those amazing resources to recreate a happy childhood in the present, to attempt to bypass the suffering of the past, We still would never have enough.
We still would never be working in the right way to deal with the pain of the past.
And I guess like Anna Nicole Smith, not exactly a star with the same level of talent, but there is a general decline and a pillaging of the talented and defenseless.
And I did often get the sense that Michael Jackson was defenseless, right?
And again, this is not to note any of his potential predations on children, which I don't know anything about really, but He did strike me as a particularly defenseless and childlike adult, which translated into a delightful playfulness in his videos and on stage.
A truly energetic and delightful playfulness and passion.
And he was a very generous performer.
I mean, that is something that...
There's a great vulnerability in showing passion to the world, right?
It arouses great skepticism and animosity in many people.
But he was always a very generous performer.
I never saw him give a performance that was...
Lackadaisical or distracted or substandard.
So all of that talent, all of that energy, all of that ability, all of that passion are simply translated into a greater feast for the parasites to consume.
And much like pimps will get prostitutes on drugs, so many times the people who handle these ferocious talents end up drugging them, right?
Like dancing Russian bears and drugged or kept.
Sodden with vodka, and it is those very drugs which end up consuming, in a sense, the goose that lays the golden egg.
And then these people will move on to some new talent, and it really is quite tragic, right?
I mean, the beauty that he was capable of in his performance and in his music simply served, in many ways, as a magnet for those who would prey upon him and prey upon that.
So I think it's a tragedy, but there is a lesson in it I think we can learn.
Which is that we can't ever bypass or recreate that which was missing when we were younger.
We simply need to face that it wasn't there, that it never will be there, and we will never be the people we could have been if it had been there.
And that is the only way that I can think of to gain something out of a tragedy like this.
Those are just my two cents worth of thoughts on it.
I don't claim to be any kind of expert on Michael Jackson, but those are just the thoughts that I had.
Thank you. I don't have anything particular to add other than that, because I really do want to get on to the listener questions.
Hello, Steph. Hello. How are you?
I'm fine. Okay.
This is not going to be a big question, but I've been wondering a while ago.
I have trouble making the difference between irritation and anger.
That sounds like an excellent question.
All right? Go on.
Okay, so that's my question.
Otherwise, it's completely annoying.
Sorry, just kidding. Go on. Okay.
Well, as you know, I've been talking to my mom for the last few weeks and As we spoke about earlier, I have trouble expressing and feeling anger and I feel irritation.
Oh dear, I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop you right at the beginning.
Okay. I have trouble, you said, expressing irritation and anger.
You have trouble expressing anger.
Feeling. Not expressing, I mean feel.
Right, you have trouble feeling anger.
You have trouble feeling anger.
Do you know why I might stop you and start to provoke you by correcting you on that phraseology?
Well, I don't express it, I feel it.
Right, but do you know why I might stop you when you say I have trouble expressing anger?
No. Alright.
When you grew up in your family, children have a natural affinity with anger, absolutely.
Just the same way they do with joy and bemused resignation and all of the other vagaries of emotions.
So you were not born with...
Speaking of which, you were not born having trouble expressing anger, right?
Right. Right, so...
When you say, I have trouble expressing anger, you're saying that there is a deficiency on your part that is at least in the expression unrelated to your family circumstances, right?
Right. Do you see what I mean?
It's an isolated problem that you have that doesn't come from outside, right?
Okay, yeah. So when you did express anger...
As a child, what happened in your family situation?
What was your parents' response?
They attacked me for it.
I'm sorry? Well, they attacked me for it.
Okay, can you give us an example if you don't mind?
When my dad would get angry over something I had done, You know, like screaming at a video game or something like that.
And I would apologize, but it still looked angry and he would still act angry and that would irritate me.
I would feel angry because of that.
You know, okay, I apologize.
I'm sorry, I will stop yelling.
I'd say to my dad, can you please relax a bit?
And that would be a complete...
How can I say that?
My father would get even more...
You cannot tell my dad to calm down or to relax.
He would get even more angry.
Right. So I asked you an example of when...
I appreciate that, and I'm sorry to hear that.
I did ask for an example of where you got angry, and you gave me an example of where your dad got angry.
Oh, sorry. No, no, don't apologize.
I'm not angry. Yet!
No, right?
But I understand why you did that, but I still want to ask about a situation where you get angry.
Nothing comes to mind right now.
I mean...
No, but that's important, right?
That's important. I mean, the reason you gave me an example of your father being angry is because you could not remember a time where you'd gotten angry, right?
Yeah, and I told you of a time where I got irritated.
Right, and you also told me a time where you were attempting to get your father to not be as angry.
Yeah. Right, so, and please understand, this is with huge, huge, massive sympathy, but...
Do you know what that might mean?
Again, this is all my usual theory, right?
So take it for what it's worth.
Do you know what it might mean that you can't remember a time when you got angry in your family?
Well, that it was really not allowed at all.
Yeah, it really was not allowed at all, and the opposition to your anger or the punishment for your anger started very early.
Yeah, that makes sense. Because I can tell you...
Well, Christina, when did Isabella start to really express anger?
Yeah, Isabella has really developed the ability to express anger over the last two weeks.
So at about, you know, five and a half to six months, she really began to express anger.
And of course, I mean, this fundamentally came about because I was explaining...
With hand puppets about taxation.
So, just kidding.
But she really, when she is angry at Christina or myself or some other circumstances, she will yell at us.
You can see her get tense and angry.
And that is great.
I think it's just fantastic that she's developing that because it really helps us as parents to give her more of what she wants, to help her.
To figure this stuff out.
And so if she develops the ability to really get angry between five and six months of age, and you can't remember ever getting angry or initiating anger at your parents, And most people will remember stuff from the age of three or four onwards.
It seems to me most likely that you were not allowed to get angry or you were either abandoned or attacked for getting angry even when you were a baby or a toddler, if that makes any sense.
Yeah. And what that tells me...
Again, this is not just my theory, but I'll put it forward with my usual caveats about psychological theories, particularly mine, which is that I don't claim that they're proven.
But there is a significant theory in psychology which says that you can be a good parent I think?
But then when your own psychological development was interrupted or halted or perhaps even pushed back a certain way, when your child hits that threshold or that barrier, they provoke a lot of old pain within you.
And so your parenting will decline precipitously in terms of its warmth and affection when your child hits your arrested development, so to speak.
And certainly I had a small instance of that because I was a couple of months old when my parents split up.
And I just began to think about it when Izzy was about the same age.
And again, I don't know the details of it, but I suspect because it really provoked a lot of old ache in me that there was some of that aspect that occurred about a month or two ago.
So if your parents opposed...
Your anger at the age of one or two or three, then it means that as far as that emotional development went for your parents, there was a likelihood that that is where their emotional development stopped as well, right?
And it's hard to think of this, right?
Because we look at parents when we're kids in particular as these, you know, big, all-wise, all-knowing, living gods, right?
But the reality is that a depressing number of parents are simply infants with hairy arms, right?
Right. To all infants with hairy arms and tax deductions.
And so if your anger was opposed so fundamentally by your parents at such a young age, then that would be an indication of where their own development stopped as well, right?
That's very interesting.
So I wanted to point out that you don't have a problem expressing anger.
You were attacked or abandoned.
Most likely, for expressing anger, right?
It's not your deficiency that is unrelated to the environment you grew up in.
Okay. I mean, you sound sort of skeptical or that this is irrelevant, and that could be fine.
Maybe it is, and I'm completely wrong, but what do you think of what I'm saying?
Yeah, as I said, it's interesting.
I don't Well, I don't have anything to prove it or anything.
But, yeah. Look, sorry to interrupt.
We do have some proof in that you simply cannot remember getting angry at your parents.
And children get angry at their parents.
Of course. Because a lot of parenting, or at least some aspect of parenting, is not letting children have what they want.
Yeah. Yeah. Isabella wants to sleep with Christina every night and wake up every 20 minutes to feed, right?
Which completely conflicts with my breast access.
And I'm bigger.
Sorry about that.
Both of them put together. Just kidding.
Too much information, right?
No, but parents deny children what they want.
Isabella does not want to sleep in her own room, right?
Because we just, last week, She moved her crib into her own room, which is in the basement with spiders and ghosts.
Apparently in her mind, right?
Now it's just across the hallway, right?
And so she wants to sleep with us.
And there's times when she's really tired, but she doesn't want to go down to nap, right?
And for what if she's overtired or too excited or whatever?
But we need to sort of calm her down and she'll cry herself to sleep for a short period of time.
So a child who can't remember getting angry at his parents is a child who's Emotional development has been severely retarded by over-aggressive parenting because I sure as heck want Isabella to remember a lot of times when she was angry at me.
Of course, because the only option is either I'm way too permissive and she can do anything she wants, which is completely irresponsible as a parent, or I have...
Scared her into no longer being able to be angry, which is robbing her of an essential assertive mechanism for her adulthood, which again is equally destructive to her as a child.
Does that sort of make any sense?
Yeah, yeah. So don't look at it as a deficiency of yours.
Look at it as something that was taken away from you.
The ability and the right and the self-expression of being angry at your parents.
I want her to...
I don't want her to get angry at me, but I want...
Her to have the experience of anger without abuse, of anger without destructiveness, of anger when her needs aren't met, when she doesn't get what she wants.
Now, obviously, as she gets older, I want her to appreciate why Christina and I made the decisions that we did about denying her what she wanted or whatever.
But absolutely, she is, you know, when she goes to get her needles, she's angry.
She's hurt and she's angry.
And I simply can't blame her now.
I hope that when she's older, I'll sort of explain why she got the needles and she'll say, I'm glad that you did that, though I'm sure I was angry at the time.
But if you can't remember getting angry at your parents, it means that an essential part of your assertiveness, your boundary mechanisms, your ability to negotiate, your ability to trust your own emotions, your ability to To be good, right?
Because goodness requires anger.
That was stripped and crippled within you by external forces.
Children are born with all of the emotional apparatuses that they need.
So this was all robbed from you by aggressive parenting, right?
And by parents who had a double standard which says, your anger is bad as a child, but my anger is good, but surely the exact opposite is true.
Yeah. Wow.
I did not think of it that way.
That makes sense. What are you feeling just now?
Well, I feel a bit of relief.
I'm still wondering how to...
Differentiate irritation from anger.
No, no, listen, I appreciate that, and I know that we have spent a little bit of time on this, but if that's not clear to you, then you're not going to have any luck with the abstract stuff that I will talk about.
Okay, yeah. Well, I'm going to give you just my two cents worth of theories, and you can tell me if it makes any sense to you.
Okay. Um...
There are three stages of escalation in terms of anger.
There's irritation, anger, and rage.
This is just my two cents of way of looking at it.
Irritation, anger, and rage.
The example could be something like this.
Let's say you're on safari in Africa.
This metaphor may or may not work.
It just popped into my head. You're on safari in Africa and If somebody locks you out of the cabin, right?
So you go out to take a pee or whatever.
If someone locks you out of your cabin, you're going to be irritated, right?
Yep. And then what happens is you pound on the door, and like a roommate I had in college, no matter if you can pound, you can drop a, I don't know, a hissing bobcat on his face.
He's not going to wake up. Right?
So you are...
You are locked outside.
You're irritated. You pound on the door and you don't get any answer, right?
You're going to start to get angry, right?
Yeah. That sort of makes sense?
Yep. Now, let's say that you hear the roar of a lion and you're locked outside in your pajamas, right?
Yeah. Well, you're going to start to get pretty frantic at this point, right?
Yeah. You're going to start to get enraged.
Okay. Does that sort of make sense?
Yeah, so anger is simply...
Another stage of irritation, the next step.
Yeah, because we obviously don't want to start with rage, because rage is the stage of ultimate fight or flight, right?
And we want to keep that for emergencies, right?
We don't want to be, I'm enraged because I got to the store and it was closed, right?
So I'm going to trash it, right?
Make me understand that that would not be a productive or healthy response to a minor irritation, right?
Right. And so when something is not going right for us, Or something is negative towards our own self-interest, then we're going to feel some irritation,
right? So I went out to pee in the African jungle, and I wanted to come back in and go to bed, and now there's an inconvenience because I have to knock, and now I have to wake someone up, they have to get me up, and it's going to take me an extra 10 or 15 minutes to get to bed.
That's annoying. It's a minor inconvenience, but it's annoying, right?
So that's negative to our self-interest, so we will feel some irritation.
Now, irritation... Does not mean that you're in the right.
Right? Neither does anger, neither does rage.
Because we all know very angry people, raging people, who are not in the right.
But all it means is that my expectations of what I want are not being met or addressed, or something is happening that is negative to my self-interest.
That doesn't mean that your self-interest is right.
The guy who wants to mug you and who finds out that you know judo is going to be angry and annoyed, but it doesn't mean that he's right to mug you.
It just means that his self-interest to get your stuff has been thwarted by your expertise in martial arts.
And this is why philosophy is so, so important and self-knowledge is so important, so that the expectations that we have are just and fair.
So that then, when we get irritated, it is much more likely that we're being irritated because someone else is acting unjustly, right?
If I have a complete expectation that I'm going to win the lottery on Friday, then obviously I'm going to be incensed if I don't, right?
Yeah. That it's not a fair expectation, right?
Now, of course, if I want to play the lottery and I don't win, I might be a little bummed or annoyed that I didn't win, but it wouldn't be the same level because I didn't have the same expectation.
Okay, yeah. So, irritation is the first sign that our self-interest, our preferences are not being met.
And, ideally, it's by someone else, right?
Right. I mean, it can happen with inanimate stuff, right?
So you can put sunscreen on your body, you can miss a bit, and you can get one of those weird stripey sunburns, right?
And that may be irritating, but nobody's done anything to you, right?
You just missed a spot, right?
But nonetheless, that is an indication that your self-interest has not been served because you didn't want a zebra stripe sunburn down your side or your arm or something like that, right?
So irritation is, it means that my Preferences have been thwarted, right?
That's what it means.
Now, anger means that my preferences are being thwarted and now it is becoming significantly problematic, right?
And rage means it's full-on fight or flight, right?
Right. And none of these, of course, mean that it is just, right?
The emotion does not validate the justice of what we're feeling, but with sufficient self-knowledge and a dedication and a habituation towards principles, rational principles, you can begin to trust that Your irritation is just, and your anger is just, right?
So, to give a silly, not a silly example, but an example from my life, if Christina does, I guess I've gained a lot of credibility in my marriage with Christina, that when I'm irritated, it's for a very good reason.
It's not because I didn't get my candy bar that afternoon or whatever, right?
I'm irritated for a very good reason.
And whenever I have gotten irritated and we've explored it, it's been incredibly helpful.
In developing self-knowledge and a better and healthier marriage.
And so now that we've been married for seven years, when I'm irritated, we don't have to go through the process of, well, is my irritation fair or just or unjust or whatever?
Because now we accept that my irritation is going to be valid and just and be important towards something that's going to be really helpful.
It's like an early warning radar, an early warning system.
And of course, irritation is designed to prevent you from getting to anger, the same way anger is designed to prevent you from getting to rage, right?
Because you're supposed to act on that which is irritating you to talk about it with the person or to whatever it is that's going to ameliorate the problem.
Irritation is designed to get you to not get angry, right?
And anger is designed to get you to not be enraged, right?
And so in my marriage, my irritation has enough credibility that we just go straight to, well, we're going to assume it's valid, we're going to assume it's just, and now let's just start exploring what's going on.
And that's because, you know, a lot of work on self-knowledge, a lot of work on principles, a lot of work on bringing that which is unconscious into consciousness so that I'm not run by a rudder I don't see.
But that's why we work on principles.
Because if anger alone was all we needed, we wouldn't need philosophy.
Just, oh, I'm angry, I'm in the right.
But, as Aristotle said, it's easy to get angry.
It's hard to get angry in the right way, at the right time, with the right people, to the right effect.
But irritation is something always to take great notice of.
Because we tend to brush off irritation.
Because we've been told that our irritation is just pettiness, right?
Often. But irritation is very important to look at, because it is your early warning signal.
It is your first sign of That something is happening that is negative to your self-interest, which doesn't mean that you're in the right, but it does mean that you need to pay attention to it and you need to explore it with the person that you're irritated at or the situation or circumstances.
And it is a requirement for action.
And if you don't address that, it simply escalates, right?
into anger and then it will escalate into rage, right?
You don't want to do that, right?
You want to save yourself that unpleasantness, right?
Right. So I would say when you feel irritated, this would be sort of my mantra.
This is sort of what I work with, right?
I'm not an angry person.
I am not a particularly prone to irritation person.
I have a temper, but I think that it's just, or at least I hope that it's just, at least most of the time.
But if I'm irritated, I need to hit the brakes.
I need to stop what's happening.
I need to not brush it off or dismiss myself with, oh, I don't know, maybe I just didn't get enough sugar, or maybe I just didn't get enough sleep, or maybe I'm just getting a bit of a headache, or maybe I'm just cranky because of X, Y, and Z, right?
Just not brush myself off.
Because it's important. It's an important part of your psychological and mental health to respect your feelings.
And the sooner...
That you begin to respect your feelings and the more subtle your feelings are when you begin to respect them, the more equilibrium you can develop and maintain.
Because you won't then have to escalate to get to the truth, right?
So I would really put the brakes on and say, well, I'm not just going to dismiss myself as, oh, I'm an irritable person or there's no reason to be irritated or whatever, right?
But I would say, well, this is important.
This is the first early warning signal that something that I want is not happening, right?
And stop to figure out, you know, when did I first begin to feel irritated?
What do I feel irritated about?
What expectation is not being met that is creating the irritation?
And how can I best and proactively act to talk about not getting my needs met, right?
Because if someone doesn't meet her needs, we don't just sit there and say to them, you must meet my needs, right?
Because that's just narcissistic, right?
That's just entitled.
You must meet my needs, right?
Because that's not a way of solving the problem and challenges of negotiation in relationships, right?
You say, I think, in the RTR fashion, I'm experiencing frustration, I'm experiencing irritation because I feel that my needs aren't being met.
I'm not saying that they should be met, I'm not saying that it's fair, but this is what I'm feeling, what is happening for you, and this is when it started.
You have those conversations, right?
And that is allowing your body...
To give you gentle prods towards maintaining boundaries, right?
Gentle prods towards negotiating to get what you want in relationships.
But if you repress it, your system will simply escalate it.
And then what happens is you don't get your needs met anyway.
Because if you start with a little bit of irritation, then you can explore it in a much more gentle way.
If you wait until you're enraged, you're just going to be dismissed, right?
You just go, oh, it's crazy, right?
It's nuts, right? So you want to start with as quick, as low a threshold of feeling as possible, as delicate a sense of feelings as possible, so that it doesn't escalate to the point where you're guaranteed to not get what you want, right?
Does that help at all?
Yeah, that makes sense.
Thanks. You sound staggeringly unimpressed, which is totally fine, but tell me what you think about this way of looking at it.
Yeah, it makes sense.
I mean, I know I don't sound that way.
Okay, no, I'm just wondering if there was something like, yeah, yeah, yeah, just give me some pills.
I don't know what you were looking for.
I just wanted to, you know, maybe you did get what you were looking for, but if you didn't, I just want to make sure that I know about that.
Yeah, well, that answers my question for sure.
Sorry, can you just try again a little closer to the mic?
Well, that answers my question, yes.
Okay, good. So you're satisfied with the answer, and I'll move on to the next question.
Right, thanks. Okay, well, thank you.
I think that was a great question.
I feel unsatisfied with the conclusion of the conversation, but that could be for any number of reasons.
So, do we have...
Sorry? And I wonder why you don't feel satisfied?
I don't know exactly. I don't know, because this is sort of my preference, right?
Like, when I communicate with someone about something, what I try to achieve is that bit where, ah, oh, oh!
You know where that sunburst of understanding or connection occurs, if that makes sense?
Okay. Yes, that makes sense, yes.
But I don't feel that that happens so much between us, right?
Well, maybe it's just me.
And I think that happens fairly often.
I know we haven't talked a lot, but that happens quite a bit during our conversations.
You have to dig a lot before I give an answer.
Well, I'm not looking for an answer, right?
Well, something that clicks?
Yeah, yeah. It's the click, right?
And now maybe what I'm saying is entirely evident to people and it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, right?
I think it's a useful framework to look at it, but I think that it didn't hit the problem that you had...
I appreciate your curiosity.
Let's go back to the beginning and maybe you can tell me very specifically why you wanted to talk about irritation versus anger because I think that the theoretical framework, while useful, has not hit what it is that is really occurring for you.
So why do you think that irritation and anger was on your mind?
Well, because I just came back from talking to my parents And while on the bus on my way back home, I felt what I thought was anger, but I felt like it wasn't intense enough to be anger.
So what you felt was more like irritation?
Yeah. What I thought to myself when I felt that, I thought, this is more like the shadow of an anger.
If anger is a flame, this is a small lamp.
Right, okay. Alright, so maybe you can tell me a little bit about your conversation with your parents?
Well, this was pretty much about the same as the last ones.
So that's pretty much...
I think that's why I got angry.
I didn't get anywhere.
My father was there, and that's the main difference, but he didn't say anything much other than, you know, supporting my mother in what she said.
You know, we did the best I could, the best we could, sorry, etc.
So... That's why I was irritated and maybe even a little bit angry.
Go on. In what direction?
Alright. How long did you talk to your parents?
Not that long, maybe half an hour.
And what was your purpose in talking to your parents?
Well, Well, first I wanted to let my father know about why I had been not communicating for a while, for first I wanted to let my father know about why I had been not Well, for two to three weeks.
I wanted to talk about it while he was there.
And I still felt like I had to talk to them about it.
My mom contacted me yesterday and she invited me for supper.
I ended up not staying for supper, but anyway.
And I said, yes, if we're going to talk about that, about the bullying and my childhood, I want to talk about that.
So she said, okay.
So at least that was some...
Something of an opening.
Yes, and sorry, just for those who don't know, this is FDR 1379 and 1380 is relevant to this, but sorry, go on.
Okay. But when I got there, we did some, you know, some small talk first about, you know, how are you?
How was your job? And what would you like for supper?
And then I started to talk about this and You know, the same conversation started and ended pretty much the same way.
Okay, I think I'm getting clearer on why things with your parents weren't resolved and things with you and I weren't resolved.
Really? Yeah, I think I've got it, but I'll ask a couple of questions to see if it makes sense.
What was your goal?
In bringing this up, what would have been the ideal outcome for you in bringing this up with your parents?
Well, the ideal outcome would be certainty in any way.
I mean, I would like to know if there's For getting some answers and getting somewhere with my childhood and bullying instead of just avoidance.
Well, but avoidance is an answer, right?
In some way, yeah.
No, no. Not in some way.
I'm telling you this. It's not a theory.
Avoidance is an answer, right?
Right?
Like, I mean, no, seriously, if you, I don't know, you want to ask some girl out and she doesn't return your calls, is that an answer?
Yeah, okay.
Right?
You want a job, they don't call you back.
Is that an answer?
Yeah. Right, so, you know, these are silly examples relative to, but it is an answer, right?
How many times? Is this your third or fourth?
How many times have you had this now?
Four or five times.
Four or five times, alright.
So I think I can start to see why you're not feeling a lot of irritation, but you're also not getting any closure, right?
Do you want to take a stab or should I keep asking questions?
You can ask questions.
Tell me...
Tell me!
I feel like I should be shining a pipe like your retina or something.
So, okay, but tell me, this has been going on now for a month?
Yeah. How many of these conversations are you going to have?
What's the plan? 20?
50? 100? 100?
Assuming that they're all going to end up the same way.
The best predictor of future behavior is relevant past behavior, so there's no particular reason to believe that the next conversation is going to be any different than the last bunch.
So, what is the plan here?
Because you're living in a peculiar state of timelessness, in my opinion.
So, if you don't have a plan, if you don't have a cut-off, And I'm not saying what it should be or shouldn't be.
Whatever number is fine.
But then it means that you can't actually really be disappointed.
And you can't actually get in touch with the feelings.
Because I said irritation is when their self-interest is violated.
But you don't know.
You have to have some standard, right?
Right. So what is your standard with your parents?
How many of these conversations...
If you had to take a guess, how many of these conversations is going to be enough for you to get it?
I have no idea.
Of course you do. Wrong answer.
Yes, wrong answer. And I'll tell you why it's the wrong answer, my friend.
Because if you had no idea, you would not have brought this up with me, you would not have refused me the aha, and you wouldn't have asked me to go on with this conversation, because you know exactly the number, which is why you're doing what you're doing today.
Right?
Never underestimate your own brilliance.
So what's the number?
None.
None more, you mean? I'm sorry?
Sorry, you said none. So how many more?
Is it no more? So the four is four?
No more. If the conversations are always going to end that way.
Okay. Are the conversations always going to end that way?
How many years have you known your parents?
Twenty-one. Did they protect you in the way that you wanted or in a way that was decent and reasonable as a child?
No. Did they bully you at home and turn you out to be bullied at school?
Yes. How have they responded to your repeated pleas for understanding and compassion and honesty and change?
They rejected me. Would these actions be in accordance with what even the popular conception of love would be?
No.
Do you love them?
Do you know how we said avoidance is an answer?
A pause is an answer as well.
Right?
Right.
Do you love them?
Do you love that? I can ask it more basically.
Sorry, go ahead. I still feel something for them.
Sure. Some kind of affection.
Sure. I understand.
And I'm not going to tell you you're wrong.
Not in a million years. These are your feelings.
We respect them. So what do you feel?
Or let me ask you some other questions, because that's obviously a complicated one.
Okay. Do you...
think that your parents are brave?
Not really.
you know Well, I mean, not really brave occurs to everyone because we're all not brave at some points, right?
But in general, can you think of an example where your parents have shown great or even decent courage in the face of difficulty?
No. Alright.
Do you think that your parents are honorable?
I think I know where you're going with this.
Okay.
Do you think that your parents have integrity?
No.
Let me ask you the toughest question.
What evidence do you have that your parents really love you?
Real evidence.
That's really hard right now.
Well, it's not hard in terms of evidence, right?
It's a hard question, I understand.
But if after 21 years you're stalled on the question of whether there's evidence that your parents really love you, that's a challenging Moment, right?
Yeah. Right now I'm thinking that, you know, when I was little and even when I got older, there was, you know, there was a lot of I love you, lots of hugs and everything like that.
Sure. So, I did not have much friends, but the friends that I did have, Wanted to be in my family.
Sure, but love is not hugs and love is not saying I love you, right?
Right. I hug people that I do not love, right?
Right. It doesn't mean that I hug people I hate, right?
But a hug is not love, right?
I'm just watching, I was earlier today, while I was having my lunch, I was watching the gay pride parade that was cruising down Toronto streets.
Lots of hugging going on.
I'm not sure that it was entirely based on love.
Right, so hugs are not enough.
Right, where there is love, there is hugs, but where there are hugs, there is not always love, right?
Right.
Do you think that your parents love you?
Well.
They think that they love me Do you think that your parents love you?
I'm asking what they think. Tell me why, because I can't see your face, right?
So tell me what the hesitation is.
Is the hesitation that it's a really tough question, or do you not like the answer?
What is it that you're pausing on?
Because if after 21 years of knowing people, you don't know, Then no knowledge is possible.
Then Christina might secretly hate me, right?
I might secretly hate Isabella because, you know, anything's possible, right?
Yeah, well...
But 21 years of knowing someone, of knowing people, we have to be able to come to conclusions.
We have to. Because otherwise, no knowledge is really possible of anyone.
We can never be certain of any relationship, right?
Right. Do you think that your parents...
I'm just asking you whether you think it, right?
We can never publish this if you don't want to, right?
So feel free to speak candidly, right?
Because this is really just...
It's not about getting a podcast out.
This is about getting to where your feelings are, where your real genuine thoughts are, right?
So this can just be between you, me, and a few other people listening.
We never have to publish this if you don't want to.
So feel free to be frank.
Do you think that your parents love you?
Right now, I don't think so, no.
When you say right now, what do you mean?
Well... Like in this very moment, this year, this month?
Well, five months ago, I would have told you, yes, absolutely, they left me.
Even two months ago.
Sure. Before the coup.
Sure, absolutely. And, you know, 2,000 years ago, people would have said the world is flat, right?
But then we learn, right?
I don't think so.
I don't think. But I might be wrong.
That's why I have so much trouble saying it.
Okay, so you're cautious because you might be wrong.
Yeah, and if I'm wrong and that my parents really do love me, they're going to feel extremely hurt by what I said.
You know? Yeah.
All right.
Sorry, my brain just completely rotated in my head.
That's always a little painful. All right.
All right. All right.
I don't think that your parents love you just based on what you said.
What you just said right now.
Do you want me to say why or does it make any sense yet?
It makes sense, but go on.
All right. If I remember rightly, and correct me of course, you said, I don't think my parents love me, but I'm not sure, and if I'm wrong, they're going to be very hurt if they find out what I said, right?
Right. Well, if I love Christina, but Christina does not feel that I love her, what is my first responsibility if I love her?
Well, to show her that you love her.
Right! Right.
Not to make her feel guilty for not feeling loved.
Do you understand? I would only want her to feel guilty for not feeling loved if I had no intention of actually loving her.
Wow. Right?
Let's take a stupid example.
You buy something from a store, from Best Buy.
You're not happy with it.
You take it back and they say, I'm really offended that you're bringing this back.
I'm really hurt that you don't like this iPod.
What would you think of a store like that?
Oh, wow. Now I got the...
I get it.
What would you think of a store like that?
That's retarded.
Sorry, you're just quiet.
Still quiet.
That's not a good one.
Oh, fine.
What would you think of a store like that?
That's completely retarded.
Right. You order something at a restaurant and it comes stone cold.
You send it back to the waiter and the waiter says, I'm really hurt.
I can't believe that you're sending this food back.
No, the waiter says, I'm sorry, let me get you something that's more to your satisfaction.
Best Buy says, hey, we'll exchange, no problem.
This is what we get from waiters and minimum wage store clerks.
Should we not get infinitely more from our families?
The very fact that your concern is whether they'll be upset by the fact that you don't feel loved tells me all I need to know about the relationship.
Wow. Because what you're talking about is a fucking Soviet department store.
That's totalitarian, right?
Right. I can't express my needs.
I can't express my preferences.
I can't express my discontent because people will be upset and angry.
That is a non-voluntary relationship.
Right.
Now, if you'd have said, my parents...
Would immediately ask me what is missing so that they can improve?
I'd have been like, beautiful!
That's what we want, right?
But if you say, I'm scared that they're going to be hurt and upset if I tell them my thoughts and feelings about the relationship, then you understand it's all about managing their hurt and upset.
It's not about getting what you want, which is why you don't have any standards.
Except call Steph and provoke him to blast me with this, right?
Wow.
That's so clear now.
Well, it was...
I know it's almost impossible to see.
It is impossible to see from the inside.
But once you see it, it's very clear, right?
And you've always seen it at some level.
We are not put on this precious planet with our precious days.
To manage the upsets of narcissists.
We are not put here for this short and wonderful and beautiful time to fearfully step over the possible landmines of other people's upsets.
Unfortunately for many of us, that is what we are born into.
But we don't have to stay that way.
Right? Because if you are in relationships because you're afraid of the negative feelings of others, you understand you're never going to leave that schoolyard.
You're forever going to be contortioning and twisting yourself into that which you hope and pray causes other people the least offense.
You're going to turn yourself into a trembling, empty ghost in order to avoid troubling bad people.
But we are here to trouble bad people.
Because you can't be good without troubling bad people.
You can't cure cancer without pissing off the cancer.
Do you think your infection wants you to take antibiotics?
Thanks.
Ha ha ha.
No. Of course not.
You can't do good.
In fact, that's one of the ways I guide myself.
What is the quality of the people I'm annoying today?
Am I annoying good people?
Oops, not in the business plan.
Right? Like these gutless dipshits who are writing to complain to the people in Philadelphia that they're inviting me, right?
Are these respectful, decent, kind?
No! They're idiots.
Nasty idiots, right?
Oh no, I'm annoying bad people.
Well, I've got to be doing something right then.
Like last year, an anarchist really angered a politician.
All right.
This is how we guide ourselves, right?
Thank you.
By pointing towards the light of truth and virtue and away from the darkness of evil and corruption.
Both of these poles are how we navigate.
Because a way to find virtue, if the light is always opposite the greatest darkness, the way to find the light is look straight into the greatest darkness and then turn around 180 degrees and you're facing the right way, right?
Which means if people who are nasty...
are not happy with you, then you're doing something right.
That's true.
I feel so much better now.
Good. Well, see, that's what I was looking for.
And I really do appreciate your persistence in staying with it.
But that's really... And you understand, like, I'm using these terms like narcissist and corruption.
I'm not specifically talking about your parents who I don't know enough, right?
I certainly have my opinions, but that's not particularly important.
But I'm just talking about the principles of the thing, right?
You know the degree to which it applies.
I obviously can't tell you that.
If these are the conversations that you've been having and you have been begging them for a small fucking glass of water after 21 years in a burning desert, and they shrug and turn away, I myself would not be overly troubled by their upset.
And I say that with the full understanding that it's impossible to be indifferent to our family, but I'm just saying as a principle.
They know how badly you need this information and this attention and this closure with regards to your childhood, that you are desperate for it, right?
This is what is consuming your thoughts for the last few weeks, right?
Right.
Thank you.
Right, this has been what's on your mind, right?
Right, yeah.
And if you want to know what it was like with your parents before you can remember what it was like with your parents, go back to them with a burning need as an adult.
Right, because we have burning needs For our parents' kindness and support when we are infants, when we are toddlers.
And if we get burned by that, we spend the rest of our lives avoiding having needs, because needs bring disaster.
But not having needs is not having an identity.
It's not having desires. It's not having standards.
It's not having self-protection.
It's not having healthy anger.
And so one of the reasons that I suggest, go back to your parents with your greatest needs.
I need this. I'm not getting that.
I'm unsatisfied with that.
I need information about when I was a kid.
I need to understand honestly why you did what you did.
I need, I need, I need.
Because if you don't have needs, you don't have a relationship.
And so the reason that it's so tough to go back and to ask our parents, if we have these kinds of parents, it's so hard to go back and ask our parents for these things, is because it puts us right back in the crib begging for them.
Thank you.
Begging for help, begging for aid.
It puts you right back in the schoolyard, begging for protection, begging for what you need.
I mean, if Christina comes to me tearfully and begs for something from me, I would do anything to give it to her.
Thank you.
Right? If Isabella needs anything that's healthy, and what you're asking for is healthy, I would do anything to give it to her.
Anything. And if you put yourself back in a situation of need with your parents, you understand that Your early childhood, no matter what they do or don't do.
It turns the light on in the darkness of our history where memory cannot reach.
And we see ourselves as babies, as toddlers, reaching for and needing things from our parents because we're right back in that situation of having a need for something from our parents.
And seeing how they respond to our naked need.
Do they supply?
Do they empathize? Are they curious?
Or do they stonewall?
wall?
Do they evade?
Do they deny us what we need?
So I think that's why I said evasion is the answer.
Thank you.
Evasion is the answer.
That you are getting now from your parents exactly what you got when you needed them as a kid.
Right?
Which is why?
Sorry.
Can you repeat the question, Mr.
I'm sorry. No problem.
You are getting now exactly what you got from your parents when you needed them so desperately as a child, which is what?
Avoidance.
Rejection.
Rejection, minimization, self-protection, evasion, sacrificing your legitimate and healthy needs for the sake of their own emotional protection and preferences.
right? That's right.
The sacrifice of your legitimate interests for the sake of their immediate avoidance of anxiety, right?
And I promise you, that's not new.
That is not a habit they developed a month ago, or a year ago, or ten years ago, or twenty, or thirty.
That is a fixed way of being.
that is a long, long, long-term habit.
habit.
Yeah.
And they're very clearly telling you, right?
I mean, if I were to do something completely crazy and step into their unconscious, they're telling you, look, this relationship is what it is.
We are being very clear.
We're being very clear.
Your needs do not exist for us relative to our preferences.
We could not make it more clear if we hired a fucking skywriter.
If we tattooed it on our foreheads, we could not make it more clear.
You keep asking for these things that you so desperately need for us, as you have always done, and we keep responding in the same way.
We can't make it any clearer.
They're telling you very clearly.
What this interaction, what this quote relationship is going to be.
It's not going to change.
This is how it's going to be for the next 30 or 40 years.
This is how it was 15 years ago.
This is how it was 6 months ago.
This is how it was Last month, this is how it is.
is this month.
This is how it's going to be forever.
And they're not even pretending to give you what you want.
They're not even saying, yes, we're going to go into therapy, and then not doing it.
Yes, these are legitimate questions.
Let us think about them and then not get back to you.
They're not even pretending.
They're not even lifting a little finger to even make a stab at pretending to give you what you legitimately and desperately need, right?
No. They told me I should go to therapy.
Sure, you're broken, right?
In the same way that you had to go to therapy as a kid, right?
Yeah. Right.
People are very honest.
We don't like what they say so often, but you can't fault them for being unclear, right?
Right. Everyone says everything to us all the time.
It's very hard to open up our ears and listen.
But there's not a lot of ambiguity here, right?
That's right. Only now you have a choice that you didn't have before, right?
Right. And that's really all that I have to say.
Is there anything else that you wanted to add to this?
It's all right. I think I'm done to.
Okay, okay. Keep me posted.
How are you feeling? As I said, I feel a lot better.
I'm sorry? You kept out?
What? I feel a lot better.
Oh, good, good. Okay.
Okay, good. All right.
Well, I certainly feel better, too.
And remember, it is all about how I feel.
Just to remember. So, fantastic.
Well, thank you so much. I really do appreciate that.
Very, very courageous hanging in there and going through some very tricky illuminations.
But fantastic. Well, well done.
And do keep us posted, of course.
And are you going to see a therapist?
I think you said that you were, right?
Well, I'm thinking about it, and I'm starting to look, but I haven't...
I wouldn't sit with this illumination alone.
I would definitely go and talk to someone about it, because these lights have a way of going out, right, if they're not stared at.
So I would really, really recommend it.
Right. All right. All right.
Well, thank you, everybody, so much for a wonderful call.
And I look forward to speaking to you all next week.
Please do remember that if you can make it to Philadelphia, it will be a lot of fun.
I think it's something that you will remember for a long time and maybe even will tell your children, if not your grandchildren, that you were there on such an exciting day.
So I hope that you will be able to make it.
Thank you so much for your call.
Thank you so much for all of your support.
If by chance you're listening to this and you haven't donated in a while, June has been a tad lean.
And of course, the expenses have been fairly exciting.
So if... If you feel like loading up the shotgun of shekels and firing it in the direction of FDR, it will be gratefully appreciated.
▲
Export Selection