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June 23, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:32:58

1399 Sunday Show Tuesday 23 Jun 2009

Pain, anger and moral resolution.

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Time	Text
	Well, thank you everybody so much for joining us.
	It is Sunday, the Tuesday, the 23rd of June, 2009, time-bending extraordinaire.
	Sorry about the Sunday show.
	Christina and I made the other, I think technically you would call it unwise decision to go to a resort with a newborn, which is a great way of spending a lot of time Looking for places to feed and change her that aren't convenient and leaving everything that you need either in the room or in the car or Technically anywhere,
	but where you are and so we we ended up coming back a little early It was beautiful.
	It was nice weather, but we didn't get too much of a chance to enjoy it because Isabella has on a very tight sleeping schedule because we're sleep training her so she's up for two hours down for an hour and a half and And then when she wakes up, she has to feed.
	So the amount of time that you can spend not in your room...
	Basically, we were like newlyweds.
	Anyway. But this is more the after shot of newlyweds than the before shot.
	Or, as you can find on many places on the internet, I believe, the during.
	So, that was an aborted Father's Day outing that was a good idea at the time, as Mike Batts thinks.
	So, thank you so much for joining us.
	Sorry that there was no Sunday show, but it is great to be chatting with you again.
	And just a last thank you out to those who sent kind notes and best wishes to the BBQ Weekend Extravaganza Decathlon.
	We really appreciated everyone coming up.
	It was absolutely our joy and our pleasure to host you all.
	It was truly wonderful to meet you all and to...
	To feel the love, frankly, which is a beautiful bath to be in.
	So that's it for me.
	That's it for updates.
	Anything particularly new, I did a nice little series on happiness, which you can find on YouTube.
	I cracked down my Scottish reserve and cheapness innately and I bought a pretty good high-def camera because I was getting kind of tired of loading either low-def or I had a high-def camera I ended up returning it because it didn't sync the audio and didn't have an external mic jack, so we're all set for a good video now, and that's going to release me to do even more.
	I have three or four podcasts in the can, four or five actually, but I'm having a little trouble finding the time to upload them, so I hope that I will get to that tomorrow.
	Thank you for your patience.
	They're coming. What camera did I get?
	I got a JVC HD Averio.
	The serial name is GZHD30. It comes with a 30 gig hard drive.
	It does 1920, I think it is, by 1080.
	The colors are fantastic.
	I haven't found really great settings for the camera aspect of it yet, but it is the cheapest camera that has an external mic jack.
	It retails for $799,000.
	I found it for $6.99 and then I haggled them down to $6.49 and that was about as good as I could get it.
	So that is a really good deal.
	So it has three sort of modes of recording.
	I was hoping to get a camera that did 720p.
	Oh, look at all the people falling asleep who aren't technically inclined.
	I'll keep it brief, I promise.
	I was hoping to get a 720p camera that has an external mic jack because YouTube is 720p, but there is no such animal that I could find, and I could not find a camera that did both 1080 and 720 and had an external mic jack, so it seems to have solved it for the most part, but the problem...
	Now, and there always is a problem, right?
	It's inevitable that when I upload the raw 1080p footage to YouTube, it does convert the video, but the audio goes crackly.
	So if we have any audio-visual experts out there about any way to suggest that I might be able to...
	I'm loading it on the lowest level of throughput up to YouTube, and I get crackling.
	You can see that on my little video about Michael Bednarik and the debate that I'll be having in Philadelphia in Knot.
	Two weeks from now. So if you have any tips on that, I would appreciate it right now.
	I'm running it through a conversion process to 720p and uploading it to YouTube then.
	I'd really like to skip that step.
	So if anybody knows anything more, that would be fantastic.
	And again, all of this hardware comes out of the highly generous pockets of the donators.
	And I think it is time to up the video quality using the Sony 640x480 camera.
	That I got about five years ago does not seem to be cutting it anymore.
	So, especially since YouTube went high def and wide screen, it does seem a little primitive.
	It's one step up from a flip book of stick figures that you use to draw in your books if you are over 40 or 35 at least.
	So, thank you everybody for your patience so much.
	Let's do the intelligent thing and turn the show over to you, the delicious and delightful listeners, since...
	This is supposed to be your show.
	Hi, Steph. It's Tess here.
	Oh, hi. How's it going? It's going very well.
	I'm now nervous as hell.
	Right. I feel like philosophy is about to just get very real for me.
	Well, that's good.
	And that is usually a time of breathless excitement and occasional bedwetting.
	At least that's been my experience, so I do appreciate that.
	And I just wanted to say that I've really, really appreciated and enjoyed thoroughly Your contributions on the board.
	I don't think I've run across you more than once or twice in the chat room, but you have a very graceful and empathetic style of communication, which I really appreciate and admire.
	So I just wanted to thank you for those contributions.
	Well, thank you very much.
	That's very high praise coming from you.
	And FDR is probably the most amazing website that I've ever encountered in my 20-odd years of using the interweb, so right back at you.
	That is extraordinarily high praise.
	So thank you. Thank you so much.
	So let's see if you can sort me out.
	All right. Let's take it away.
	I wanted to talk about moral certainty and anger.
	Sorry, did you say moral certainty or more certainty?
	Moral certainty.
	I'm sorry, you just sound a bit muffled, and that's probably because you are speaking from inside...
	A whale, is that right?
	Or did I misread that?
	You're either inside a whale, thus...
	Or in Wales. In Wales!
	Oh, sorry, so you're in more than one whale.
	You're in part. You've probably never heard that joke before.
	And I'm certainly proud to make that.
	I've never heard that joke before because I've only been living in Wales for a very short period of time.
	So congratulations, you are the first person.
	Well, I'll take that as slightly less high praise.
	Okay, so take it away.
	So, you know, I came to FDR and thought it was just another libertarian, selfish libertarian website, and, you know, into property rights and all that kind of stuff.
	And I can't remember how I stumbled across it in the first place, but I quickly discovered that I was...
	I was reacting to posts with...
	Well, I just couldn't deal with some of the moral certainty that I was seeing, and my reaction was to try and drag everyone back to uncertainty.
	Right, sure. And then, of course, someone pointed that out.
	I think I heard it in a podcast where you described where that might come from, and...
	I started down the spiral staircase going backwards into my mind to figure out where the hell this feeling came from and came to the conclusion that the certainty in my mind was leading to...
	the potential was there that it was going to lead to judgment against me and that judgment might lead to domination of my will by force.
	So there was a panic there.
	Whenever anybody was certain, it was always going to...
	I mean, especially irrational certainty, which I didn't really make the distinction before I came to FDR, but there was just certainty that was going to eventually lead to someone bullying me to accept what someone else believed, possibly by force.
	Right. So that results in me dragging people back to uncertainty as much as I can.
	So then I started thinking, well, what am I... Childhood is going to cause this kind of reaction.
	Of course, I didn't have to look very far.
	In fact, podcast 363 and 364, The Joy of Anger, which I don't know if you remember that one, but it was almost perfectly describing my situation in my childhood with a narcissistic mother who's hypocritical and irrational.
	And tries to control and dominate and, you know, how it goes.
	My purpose was just to make her look good.
	No rational argument I could ever make would ever defeat her points.
	I mean, never convinced her of anything ever.
	Not one time did I ever change her opinion, even today.
	And then, of course, This was all imposed with the backup of force from my father.
	If I ever was angry about my mother's irrationality and her selfishness and the hypocrisy I just saw in her, the way she would talk to people outside the family and then she would turn around and immediately this mean face would turn on me and I would get the full force of her disapproval.
	So anger is not allowed.
	If I express anger I'm sent to my room and then if I upset my mother then my dad comes home and without any discussion with me he comes up and bursts into the room brandishing his slipper or in one case a belt and I'm cowering in the room in the corner of the room screaming for mercy and he's just dragging me back across the bed and ripping my underpants off and giving me a belting and what can you do about that because There's just no way to react.
	And then, you know, when I get older, he starts telling me that once I got big enough that I might physically threaten my mum, he starts telling me that he'll throw me into the street if I'm ever violent.
	So, you know, it's okay for him to be me when I'm a child, but not okay for me as an adolescent to retaliate.
	And that's the point where, you know, I start to want to kill him and I experience...
	Fantasies like you described in your podcast about wanting to smash their faces in with a baseball bat, and I can totally identify with that.
	And by the time I was 16, I was just totally numb and I was sitting on my bed and I couldn't feel anything and I was panicking.
	And that's when you learn self-hatred because you're trying to find faults in yourself because admitting faults is the only way to regain privileges.
	And affection in the family.
	And then, you know, I have a younger brother, two years younger, and I saw myself as standing up for him in some ways and directing the force of my mother's irrationality away from him and got upset with him when he wouldn't back me up.
	And because he was afraid of my anger and, you know, I ended up redirecting this Towards him as, you know, I bullied him a few times.
	I've got no idea what kind of effect that's had on him, to be honest.
	We're still on relatively good terms, but I'm sure that must have done some damage.
	So, you know, I just think back through this and it makes it obviously very clear why I have the issues around moral certainty because I'm not allowed to have moral certainty.
	I'm not allowed to have anger.
	I'm not allowed to have moral certainty.
	Only other people are allowed to be morally certain.
	Right. And yet not moral, right?
	And yet not moral, no.
	I'm so sorry. I won't interrupt you because I have a question or two and I want you to keep going.
	It's an absolutely terrible and terrifying situation.
	And horrifying story.
	Obviously, you're not alone.
	I mean, there's not everyone, but some people in the community have gone through just such assaults, right?
	I mean, people say it was punishment or spanking or whatever, but it's a rank, violent, overbearing assault upon a helpless...
	And of course, I'm blamed for it all, right?
	Of course, yeah. You were doing it.
	You've heard all this millions of times.
	We tried the best we could.
	You were so difficult.
	We couldn't do anything. You didn't conform to our will.
	We beat you. And now we're going to blame you for anything that results from that.
	And even today, no remorse whatsoever.
	The slightest kind of, we're sorry that you're hurt, but we're not going to change.
	Right. And of course, people who will assault a child in such terrifying ways We're in a brutal and violent manner are not likely to develop empathy or remorse or guilt later on, right?
	Any more than somebody whose arm is bitten off by a shark is likely to have it regrow later in life.
	Right, right.
	So, I mean, with this in mind, I have to ask myself, you know, why am I still talking to these people?
	Because if this was anyone else in my entire life, I would have cut them out immediately from my life.
	They wouldn't have nothing to do with anything that I had anything to do with.
	And I've cut people out in my life before for far less than this.
	And yet, for some reason, they get a free pass to continue their stupid...
	Petty abuses. Just the other day I was talking on the phone to my mum and I kind of see it as a challenge somehow.
	I see it as a challenge to get through a conversation without getting angry or being upset about something.
	I don't know why I see it as a challenge.
	That's another outflowing of the self-attack.
	I have to prove that I can manage this.
	I can't walk away from it.
	I have to prove that I can manage it.
	And I was telling her that I was considering signing up for a counselling stroke psychotherapist course.
	And it was really important to me.
	It was like the thing that I wished I'd done earlier in life.
	And now I have something that I can really I put my passion into after the first half of my career in IT. And my mum, the first thing she says is, oh, so now you'll have to learn how to listen to people.
	Like, holy crap!
	Where did that come from?
	And I just think, how can...
	I recovered and I asked her a bit at the end of the conversation, and I said, you know, I... I was really upset when you said that.
	And she backed down a little bit and said, well, you know, I'm sorry.
	And she kind of went into a bit of tears because she was upset that she'd upset me.
	Well, you know, I don't think she's really upset, but she doesn't like the idea that she has that sentimental attitude that we should all be happy families and that's really important to her.
	So any kind of disturbance to that is going to provoke her.
	To Waterworks. And so she pulled back a bit and she said, well, I didn't mean it like that.
	All I meant was that you didn't have to use that kind of skill in your first career, so this is like new skills for you.
	You fucking did not mean that when you said...
	What you were saying was, you never listened to me or you never conformed to what I wanted you to be.
	And now you're going to have to listen to me because you're going to be trying to be virtuous as a therapist.
	Right. Or, of course, saying that you're the narcissist, right?
	I'm the narcissist, yeah, absolutely.
	Well, of course, you'll learn all about projection if you don't know it already.
	You'll learn all about that as you go forward.
	So, I start thinking about, well, I have to get out of this because I can't accept this going on.
	It's just not right.
	And the more I understand about virtue and objective morality, the more I see that this is completely untenable in my life.
	And the reason I've put up with it before now is just because...
	That was my defence mechanism was relativistic.
	I'm as bad as they are.
	I would be hypocritical to cut them out of my life because I've done wicked things.
	I bullied my younger brother and I'm the one who's always getting angry.
	I'm the one who's always aggressive.
	And therefore, what right do I have to push them out in my life and say, I'm superior to you and I have a proper moral background basis for my action and you don't and you should change and stop telling me that I should change.
	So this is where the moral certainty comes in because I don't feel like I can really grasp and internalize this moral certainty.
	I don't know where it comes from.
	And the only place...
	What I've really felt that I can derive that moral certainty from is just pure out-and-out anger.
	When I'm thinking about the memories of what my dad did and I'm thinking about various incidents all through my life and I can really build up a huge steam of anger about it.
	And in those moments then I can kind of understand that I am right.
	I am morally justified in cutting them out, but it is really hard to maintain.
	And I'm not sure if I would be able to sustain it for long enough to actually go through with a DFU. Yes, no, I totally understand.
	It's a huge, huge question.
	And I mean, you're wise to ask it up front for sure, because If the only way that you can gain moral clarity is through an extremity of anger, then freedom from your family would mean a lifetime of extreme anger.
	And that doesn't seem much like freedom at all, right?
	Right. I mean, the anger is mostly...
	The extreme anger only comes up when I'm in interactions with my family.
	But there is a huge imprint in my mind that...
	It's triggered by similar incidents.
	Sorry, I wasn't particularly clear, but if I understood what you were saying, then you were sort of saying that you feel that the moral certainty about the abuses that you suffered only occurs when you really think about the incidents and feel very angry, right?
	But then when you aren't focusing on those incidents, you feel less moral certainty, right?
	Right. And so you can't stay that angry and focus only on The pain and abuses that you've suffered for the rest of your life, so you need to find a way to have that moral certainty without, in a sense, refocusing on the traumas again.
	Yeah, totally, yeah. Right, right.
	Can you tell me a little bit more, and I will come back to that, I'd just like to get a bit more of a sense of the shape and the history.
	Can you tell me a little bit more about the irrationalities that your mother was prone to, and how they showed up, and what the arguments were to move forward?
	Yeah, well, one example that immediately comes to mind, I mean, they seem, you know, in individual instances, they seem almost laughably trivial, but they just went on and on and on.
	One I remember very clearly was about...
	Bedtimes. And I always had very early bedtimes relative to my friends.
	And I never felt tired when I was sent to bed.
	And my mum would say, you're tired, go to bed.
	And I would know full well that A, I wasn't tired.
	And B, she was tired.
	And what she was really saying to me was, I'm tired, you go to bed.
	But she would never be honest about Saying that, it was always my problem, my fault.
	And she would never, you know, I would have been fired if she'd said, okay, you're right, I am tired and I need you to get out of my space.
	But that was not never what happened.
	It was, you're tired, you go to bed.
	And, you know, I would argue that I'm not tired and if I go to bed I'll just end up not sleeping and then I will be tired.
	And that would then just come to a battle of wills, as they always did.
	And every argument would end up with the logical conclusion of, I don't care if you're right, you're still wrong, which was her favourite phrase.
	So I could spend as much time as I liked trying to rationally work my way through where she was coming from, but at the end of the day it never made any difference.
	So another example would be that she would...
	I remember distinctly when I was very young, and this was probably the first time I ever saw hypocrisy, If not irrationality was when she answered the door to someone and she'd been in a bad mood and then suddenly she was all smiles and cheery and everything was wonderful for the person on the doorstep and then as soon as the door shut she turned round and there was a smile on her face and as she looked at me it vanished immediately and suddenly this mean person was back and that was the first time I saw that you know there was a A huge hypocritical streak about one face for outsiders and one face for inside.
	And, of course, there was numerous occasions where I had to perform for people that I knew that my mother did not like because she wanted to impress them.
	And she would say in private, oh, I hate this woman.
	She's coming around to visit, but, you know, we've got to be nice.
	And I would say, well, why do we have to be nice if we don't like her?
	And it was, well, that's just what you do.
	And then I would try and rationalize how that worked.
	You know, what was the logic behind acting that way?
	And so the hypocrisy would lead into the arguments about the rationality of the hypocritical point of view.
	And that would then lead into just do what I say and definitely not do what I do.
	And then, of course, it would just escalate because I was the sort of person who just became hyper-rational to try and resist this control, which was just incessant.
	And the more she tried to control me, the more logical I got, and the more intensely I was trying to argue, and it just repeated and repeated and repeated.
	Right. And, of course, it is depressing as hell when we are told that it is important to be nice to strangers.
	And yet we are treated in a way that is vile and abusive when we are flesh and blood, right?
	That, of course, makes so sense.
	She says, well, that's just what you do.
	You just are nice to people.
	And it's like, well, what's with how you're treating me, right?
	Yeah. So was she mystical or religious?
	Was it mostly social conformity?
	Were there other aspects of her rationality?
	It was hugely social conformity.
	We did go to church, but she wasn't really very religious.
	It was just for the social side.
	Right, okay. Right.
	And we were in the church choir, so we went quite regularly, but we didn't...
	I mean, I saw huge hypocrisy in the church immediately by...
	Being there several times a week amongst a load of people who were there to show off their children in the church.
	And that was it.
	That was the only reason that they were really there.
	There was no sense of community or intimacy or openness in the church community.
	We can only meet in reality, right?
	We can't meet in fantasies of gods and ghosts.
	That's like saying, hey, let's have dinner tomorrow night.
	In your dreams. It's like, we can't meet in your dreams, right?
	We can only meet at a restaurant, right?
	Yeah. And your father, I mean, obviously the impression which he evokes in me is of, I mean, I hate to say it, but it's almost like Simeon, right? I mean, it is this level of anger and violence and control.
	He's absolutely emotionally silent.
	I don't remember any time when I experienced any kind of emotion from him apart from the kind of semi-controlled rage of coming in to beat me on my mother's behalf because I'd upset my mother.
	And his only influence on my life was really to enforce or punish me for upsetting my mother.
	That was what he did.
	So, would she provoke him to rage, which he would then take out on you, or was it unconscious?
	So, how did she get him to be this kind of brutal enforcer?
	Well, I would argue with my mother and then she would...
	My mom would send me to my room and burst into tears and then I would wait for half an hour and then my dad would come home from work and I would hear him coming downstairs and then I would hear my mum telling him what had happened in a semi-hysterical tone of voice and then I would hear him pound up the stairs and Feel the intensity of what was about to happen.
	Of course, I had no option to or no ability to justify myself or, you know, it was immediately my fault.
	Oh, sure. I'm sorry, go ahead.
	So even last year, for example, when I was forced by threats of, you know, how can you do this to us to go on a I had a family holiday reunion for my mother's 60th birthday.
	We were heading out to Florida and I really didn't want to go because I knew I wouldn't be able to cope with them being back in control of my life effectively for a whole week.
	And I but I try to get out of it.
	But you know, my mum would say, Oh, it's, you know, it's really important to me.
	It's our 60th birthday, might be the last chance we ever have to be as a family together.
	And, you know, all these guilt trips.
	Sorry, that's like, really?
	You're not just saying that, are you?
	Sorry. Yes, please.
	And then we would book the flights to the plane and I would say, well, I can't really afford to fly premium economy.
	I want to go coach class.
	And she would say, oh, well, we all want to go premium, but we don't feel right going premium if you're not.
	So please, will you go premium with us?
	But I can't afford it.
	I'm going to go coach. And that was a huge deal.
	And then of course after about a week, after about four or five days of my mum being neurotic about nothing was ever right, everything was worthy of panicking and my dad just puts up with it and my brother just puts up with it and my sister-in-law just puts up with it and eventually I completely snap because I cannot stand this continuous barrage of neurotic Bitchy crap that comes out of her mouth.
	It's all self, self, self.
	And then she paints herself as a martyr that, you know, she'll do everything for everybody and you owe me.
	You should be grateful for all the things I'm doing.
	And if you're not grateful, then you're wicked.
	And so I just exploded.
	And my dad came up and stood next to my mom and looked at me with disgust on his face and then turned to her and said, come away.
	She's not worth it.
	And that's his entire contribution for parenting has been to tell my mother that, try to persuade her that I'm not worth the effort.
	So, you know, I'm pretty sure that if it was just my dad and me, then we would immediately stop communicating with no problems on both sides because I'm sure he dislikes me as much as I dislike him.
	Yeah, and of course, it's hard to reconcile she's not worth it with, you know, Beating you as a child, right?
	Well, I guess you came to the conclusion that she's not worth it after beating me didn't work.
	Yeah, yeah. Right.
	Now, I don't want to interrupt what you're saying.
	I have a few questions and comments, but I certainly don't want to...
	You have a lot to say.
	And it's really important stuff to say and to hear.
	So would you like to continue?
	And I'm certainly very, very happy to listen, of course.
	Or would you prefer it if I asked a few questions or made a few comments?
	I guess there's not much.
	There's a little bit more that I wanted to...
	Just the consequences.
	I mean, I've been considering what the consequences of defoeing are, and maybe that's the thing that's...
	There's also stuff holding me back there as well as just the need for moral certainty to do it.
	And, you know, I've been trying to picture what would happen behind the scenes if I did it and how they would react and whether I cared how they would react.
	You will care.
	You will care. Will I care?
	You know, you will care.
	There is a fantasy that we all have with regards to Destructive people, particularly, if they sadly happen to be our parents, there is this fantasy that we can rise above it, that we can no longer care, that they can't hurt us, they can't affect us, that we gain such a level of understanding and moral certainty that they're sort of like mosquitoes flying into glass against us.
	We can notice it, but it doesn't affect us.
	That is a complete fantasy.
	I understand the fantasy, but But it's a trap, right?
	Because what happens is we set that up as an expectation, and then they contact us, and then we're scared or angry, and then we say, oh, they still control me, and then we go back down again, right?
	So they will, for the rest of your life, they will have a strong effect upon you.
	That's, you know, attempting to To expect that to not be there is like expecting that you could somehow lose your knowledge of English, right?
	It's what you grew up with, it's what you speak, and you simply can't undo your history.
	Now, that doesn't mean that they have to control or direct or harm your life in the future, but you will always care about, or have a reaction, let's just say, have a very strong reaction.
	And it's also important to know that because it also means that you will also have a strong emotional reaction to people like them that you will meet in the future.
	And that can actually be very helpful, right?
	Because it's like once we process this stuff, we kind of get an allergy to evil.
	And so we sort of sneeze, cough, and in my case, shed fur when we get around that.
	So having that knowledge, I think, is really important.
	We never want to rise above our horror of evil, in my opinion, because that leaves us Too zen, too defenseless in the face of destructive people.
	So that's just my two cents about what you were saying right there.
	I just wouldn't want you to have that goal that you'll at some point be above it all and not care.
	And they can pass you by in the streets and you'll just shrug.
	It's never going to happen. I mean, I haven't seen my mother in a decade, but if she knocked at my door, I'd probably crap my pants.
	I don't think about her that much.
	I don't feel that she influences my life very much.
	Anymore, but I'm hardwired, right?
	So I think that was going to be my last question was, what does it look like afterwards?
	And is it worth it if the damage never really goes away?
	Sorry, let me just be really clear, and I'm glad that you mentioned that.
	I didn't mean to say that the damage never goes away.
	What I meant to say was that you will never not care or not have an emotional response to your parents.
	But that does not mean that their effect upon you will forever be destructive or you will never escape that destructiveness.
	You will, for sure, with the work and the stuff that I always recommend, a therapy and a community of people who can help.
	But what I'm trying to say is that if you do separate from your family, and of course that is a decision that only you can make, and I strongly suspect, in fact, I'm almost certain that the decision has been made, or that you do have that decision deep down in your heart.
	I just wanted you to not have the fantasy that you will not care about them or not react to them.
	Ten years from now, if they walk into your Place of employment, you will have a very strong emotional reaction to them.
	That does not mean that the destruction that they wreaked upon you will be continual for the rest of your life, whether you see them or not.
	I just sort of wanted to...
	And let me use a stupid medical analogy, because I like using those.
	You know, when you get a cold, you develop an antibody to the cold.
	Yeah. And if you get exposed to that same cold virus, you know, 10 years from now, you won't get the cold, right, because you already have the antibody?
	Right. Right, so your body is still, it will have a strong reaction to a cold that you had 10 years ago if you encounter that same virus again, but you don't have a cold for 10 years.
	Does that make sense? Right.
	Because what I really want to do is just not redirect this damage onto other people who don't deserve it.
	Because that's of course what your parents did to you and that is of course the most...
	I want to be a force for good in the world.
	I want to be able to help people and I want to be kind to people and I want to feel good about myself for doing that.
	If these triggers, which are large and in really awkward places in my mind, come up repeatedly forever and never heal, then I'll never be able to be the person who I should have been.
	Right, right. Well, you can be that person, right?
	You're already taking those steps by asking those basic questions, so all hail to you.
	Like, seriously, this is the moral magnificence that is so tough, and everybody wants...
	As I talked about in a recent video, everybody wants these superheroes or someone's going to save the world and so on.
	But the morally magnificent courage that we need is to face down these evils in our own life.
	And the fact that you're taking those steps with the moral certainty that comes both from emotionality and from reasoning, I think that is something that you already take your place in the rows of heroes and heroines in the world.
	I strongly... I strongly believe that those who face down the evils within the family, if those evils exist, are doing far more to help the world than anybody else combined.
	Everyone else combined. It's bigger than the UN, it's bigger than UNESCO, because those people are all dealing with the effects of bad parenting, so to stare it down, to end the cycle of abuse within your generation, is the most magnificent moral stand that any human being can take.
	And I fully understand the fear, the weakness, The social disapproval, the social attack that you may receive from others, the stalking that some people receive from taking a break from these abusive families.
	This is staring down dragons.
	This is staring down Sauron.
	This is morally magnificent.
	And it's something that is never talked about in terms of moral courage in the world.
	Moral courage is always standing in front of a tank in Tiananmen Square.
	And I'm not saying that isn't moral courage, but this is what we can do if we don't happen to be standing in front of a tank in Tiananmen Square.
	And I think it actually does far more good for the world to do what you're doing than lots of other things that are portrayed as sort of morally courageous.
	So I just want to put that up front.
	You can't ever carve this medal off your chest once you start to look at these issues and deal with the fear, the anxiety, the anger, the rage sometimes that comes up.
	You have that medal pinned to your chest and it cannot come off.
	And so that is something I think you can walk proud and tall with for the rest of your life.
	So that's one thing that I will sort of say up front.
	The second thing that I would say is that you had mentioned earlier, Tess, about...
	That you talked yourself into forgiving your parents or saying, well, I hurt my brother and therefore I'm the same and this, that and the other, right?
	And I would like to widen your perspective on that because I think it is not respectful of yourself to say that you made these decisions in a vacuum or on your own, if that makes sense.
	Because you live in a culture...
	Where families are to be worshipped and to be obeyed like slave drivers, regardless of their morality.
	And this is reinforced, obviously, in the church considerably.
	The parents give the children to the church so that the church gives them back obedient to the parents and the church charges money for that service to break the children and make them permanent slaves to the parents.
	So you live in a culture and in a social circle and in a religious environment where the family is a cult.
	No matter what your parents do, it is your job to forgive and forget, to be bigger than they are, to empathize with those who did the opposite of empathizing with you, to be kind to sadists, to be generous to thieves, to be gentle with abusers, right? Mm-hmm.
	That's how the slavery continues, right?
	This is how. And then because that's so humiliating and so enraging and we feel so broken down by all of that, we then will very often demand the power back that we lost so much with our own parents from our own children and lo, the cycle continues, right?
	So breaking that out, stopping it now by this examination is really, really healthy, really, really noble.
	But it's really important to remember that you're in a cultural context that has a huge bearing on the decisions that you make about these issues.
	Because if you think it's all just you making this stuff up, then when the cultural pressure comes on you, if you take the decision to defu, I don't want that to catch you by surprise.
	When I realised for the first time I was considering this seriously, there was like this yawning chasm of consequences that opened up in front of me that just blew me away with what it would mean.
	I mean, I've heard other people talk about it and read about it and I just had no idea...
	Just what that would feel like when it suddenly becomes real.
	And, you know, I listened to all these other podcasts about people deferring and I thought, that's something that someone else does.
	And then I'm at the same chasm.
	It's simultaneously terrifying and awe-inspiring that anyone could do this because I know in my heart what a...
	I mean, when you said in On Truth, I think in the book, that this could destroy all your relationships or end all your relationships, I thought, yeah, okay, whatever.
	He's just being dramatic.
	He's just being dramatic.
	I can't see any relationship in my life which would survive this kind of...
	Pursuit of moral virtue.
	And then I think, well, that's the way it should be because then you're able to start again with proper intimate relationships based on rational virtue and not these crappy, dysfunctional, mutually lying to each other shams that I've spent 38 years enduring.
	Right. A more precise way of putting it, though it would not be quite as forceful writing, would be to say not that philosophy destroys your relationship, but philosophy reveals the truth about your relationships.
	And if your relationships are destructive, then philosophy will simply shine a light on that, right?
	But philosophy doesn't destroy relationships.
	It simply points out the truth about those relationships.
	And lots of people make that mistake, right?
	They get mad at me.
	You broke my relationships.
	It's like, no, no, no, I just turned the light on, right?
	If there's a hole in the floor and you turn the light on, the light doesn't make the hole, it just shows it, right?
	I like to get it that way because I wanted them to be destroyed, I guess.
	Well, no, it's not that you...
	I mean, they are, right?
	Again, as you know, this is all my caveats, right?
	This is all my opinion, but I think it's backed up with some pretty solid reasoning and evidence that I mean, you didn't want them to be destroyed because you would have much rather grown up with loving, tender, nurturing, and happy parents, right?
	You didn't want to be in the situation where you had to face the Nero jump across this canyon, right?
	Yeah. So you didn't want them to be destroyed, but I do get a sense that there's a sort of bodhichia firmness or resolution within you that has the courage to look at what the light reveals and And flinch, but not cower, right?
	Well, you know, six-year-old me knew...
	I knew what right and wrong was.
	And it was crushed and crushed and crushed until it was a tiny little flicker and everything was relative and everything was my fault.
	And then I come to FDR and here's this great big burning bonfire that says, no, you were right all along!
	I was like, fuck yes!
	Fuck yes! Right, right.
	Hey, you crush enough dust, you get a diamond, right?
	Enough pressure and heat.
	So I wanted to mention that.
	Now, as far as the moral certainty goes, because I want to make sure that we talk about that because this is a very, very key issue.
	First of all, to me, it makes perfect sense that you would come to a philosophy website and you would see moral certainty that it would be both frightening and annoying and that you would attempt to undo it.
	To me, that makes perfect sense because, of course, what are the odds that This philosophy website has recently solved the problem of ethics and certainty, right?
	And of course, that's my claim.
	Some people dispute it, but that's certainly my claim, which I stand by.
	And there would be no reason to believe that some philosophy website run by some guy you've never heard of has solved the problem of the ages called ethics without God, ethics without government, and so on.
	So your skepticism...
	And the way that you approach things made perfect sense to me.
	So I applaud that skepticism as well.
	I think that's really, really important.
	And of course it's great that the reason and evidence that were presented was that you were open to consider it and so on.
	Because we do. We all do want that certainty.
	But we don't want certainty to be dogmatic, aggressive, abusive, or dismissive.
	We want certainty to be rooted in reason and evidence.
	Not rooted in bigotry and emotional defenses, right?
	So I think...
	That skepticism makes perfect sense and I think you should respect yourself for that and also respect yourself for listening to the reason and evidence and listening to your heart and your inner six-year-old about the certainty that is needed for happiness in the world.
	So I just wanted to sort of mention that.
	But as far as the certainty, I just wanted to return to this point.
	Maybe you can tell me a little bit more about it and say, when I remember the past and the abuses that were committed and the assaults that were committed against me, I get angry.
	And with that anger comes moral certainty.
	And if I remember rightly, you're concerned that if you defoo and then you don't think about the past abuses, you will lose that moral certainty and be consumed by doubt or regret or self-attack and be open to manipulation because you would have lost that sword, so to speak. I wasn't actually thinking about it like that.
	It was purely a case of...
	I think it was more of a question.
	Is it appropriate that I should generate sufficient moral certainty to do the defoeing, even if it doesn't last afterwards?
	Or is there a better way of doing it than using righteous anger?
	Is there a less aggressive...
	Burning way of developing the moral certainty because you do seem to have it all the time without too much anger.
	And I'm afraid that I would only ever have it in the midst of...
	Because I've been conditioned so much to be looking for a way to be concessionary and looking for a way to be tolerant of people who are irrationally certain...
	Then it's very hard for me to hold on to my own certainty.
	Because that was the thing that I'm just conditioned not to accept that in myself.
	So I'm not sure how long I could.
	I'm sure I could hold on to it long enough with anger to defoo.
	And I don't think that I would refoo afterwards if that went away, but of course it's not just about defooing, it's about the whole rest of my life and holding on to the moral certainty with all the other relationships that I ever pursue as well.
	Right, right.
	Well, let me ask you then a question which sounds simple but is not.
	Why do you want to defoo?
	Um... I mean, it's an important question, right?
	If you're going to take this huge life step, you need to know why.
	And I'm not saying it's one thing.
	I'm not saying it's only one thing, but what's your first thought about that?
	That question. I think because it's...
	I would feel worse about myself having these people continue to...
	Be in a position of power over my thoughts and my life.
	And I think it would be a damaging influence that would prevent healing from taking place.
	So if I didn't defoo, then it would just continue the way it's been continuing for forever until my parents die.
	And that to me has become unacceptable in the light of seeing the sort of virtue that is exhibited by people on FDR. I just can't tolerate the idea of continuing the way that I've been continuing.
	That is both a very good and a very bad answer, in my opinion.
	Now, it's very good because it's a fantastic essay, right?
	And I certainly wouldn't disagree with any of the points that you've made, but it's very abstract, right?
	Well, I don't like the fucking bastards.
	That's another reason. Well, see, that's what I was sort of asking, right?
	Yeah. I was hoping I would get to that bit, but they didn't.
	And there you did, relatively quickly.
	But I think that's important.
	I mean, yes, I agree with you about the harm to yourself and the harm to your future relationships and so on, right?
	But if you want the certainty, right?
	I mean... Certainty comes both from the emotional experience and from the language that we describe that emotional experience to us, right?
	Because we are so constituted that we need to describe things to ourselves in order to have certainty, right?
	Like, we all know that murder is wrong, but we can't really make real sense of it unless we have a way of describing it to ourselves that is logical, right?
	And makes sense and is satisfactory emotionally as well.
	And of course, that's the whole point behind UPB, right?
	That we all know that murder is wrong, but why?
	And so that's, you know, sort of tried to come up with a way of working with that.
	And it certainly is true that the wonderful essay question that you provided about why, which was all, you know, the subtle and psychological cause and effect and long-term effects and so on.
	I think it's simpler than that.
	And I think all those other things are still true, but I think that when you're looking at a way of describing it to yourself, and that doesn't mean making something up, you know, they're space aliens.
	They might be, but...
	Right? But I don't mean making something up.
	But I don't like them is...
	I loathe them, I hate them, I... I mean, in a way, that's enough.
	Right. And, of course, you hate them or you dislike them for entirely logical reasons and emotionally completely valid reasons.
	I mean, you wouldn't keep someone in your life who beat you up regularly now, right?
	You certainly, you know, if you have...
	You don't have kids, is that right?
	No, I don't. Right.
	So if you have kids, if you have kids and you had a babysitter who beat up your darling daughter or son with a belt, you would not only not have that babysitter back, you would press charges, I'm sure, and throw their abusing ass in jail, right, as best you could.
	And so when somebody said, well, why don't you rehire that babysitter?
	Be like, because she's like an evil bitch, right?
	Yeah. Right? Not, well, the consequences in the long term of The babysitter vis-a-vis my child's emotional and psychosocial development, blah, blah.
	And again, I'm sort of paraphrasing, obviously, for a comic effect, right?
	And I don't mean to mock you, of course, right?
	But I think where you seem to gain the most traction, and I think that that's quite right, is when you connect with the feelings, right?
	Because it is in the feelings. That we gain the greatest degree of certainty vis-a-vis relationships, right?
	So I think that I would just stay down at that gut level.
	I think that's actually totally right.
	I had kind of realized that, but it slips away from time to time in the huge mess of the whole situation.
	Because I remember by the time I was...
	I remember by the time I was eight, I knew that my mum was, you know, the antithesis of everything I wanted to be.
	And, you know, she was trying to make me like her and I spent the rest of my life trying to be the opposite.
	And, you know, hence the battle.
	So I knew right from very early time that these people were just not good.
	And yet you spend your entire life then trying to find a way of Excusing that.
	Right, right, right.
	No, and, you know, someone asked me the other day, you know, about my family, and I said, oh, I don't see them, right?
	And they said, well, why not?
	And I said, well, I don't like them, right?
	And then he said, well, what don't you like about them?
	And I said, does it really matter?
	Right? I mean...
	Does it really matter why I don't like my parents?
	Like, I don't have to make the case to people.
	I don't have to convince them, because I'm convinced.
	This is not a court, right?
	I don't have to provide evidence to myself or to others.
	And of course, if I had to provide evidence, all of that kind of stuff, I'd give the examples and so on.
	But I don't...
	I don't like them as people.
	I don't respect them. I can't think of a single admirable or honorable trait in the whole scurvy lot of them.
	So I don't like them, so I don't see them.
	I don't like corn from a can, and so I don't eat it every day.
	People say, well, why don't you eat corn from a can?
	I like it on the cob, I just don't like it in the can.
	So why don't you eat corn On the can, I don't like it.
	Well, why don't you like it?
	It's like, does it matter?
	I don't like it.
	And I'm not saying that you're at the place now where you can say, I don't like it, because you're really drinking deep from the cup of historical evil for the first time.
	So there's going to be a strong reaction, and you're not going to be in the place...
	Ten years later or whatever, right?
	I mean, that would be a kind of dissociation for you.
	Well, I just don't like them because it's stronger and more visceral for you than that, as it damn well should be, right, given what you suffered.
	But I think it's really, if you want the certainty, just ask yourself, do I like them?
	Yeah. Do I want to spend time with them?
	Would I be happy to have them babysit my precious child?
	Yeah. And then try not to get caught up in, well, I want them to pay.
	It's that trap which just means that I have to hang around and try and find a way for them to make them pay, which they're never going to do.
	They're never going to pay, you think?
	Well, they're never going to admit that they were wrong.
	Do you think that means they don't pay?
	I don't know.
	I get the impression that their sense of Rightness would mean that I would just be the bad child.
	Right, so if a guy who smokes two packs a day and gets lung cancer never admits that he smokes, he doesn't have cancer.
	I don't follow the analogy.
	Well, the act of assaulting a child, of bullying and manipulating a child, Is so morally egregious.
	I mean, it is the greatest evil because it is out of that evil that all other more adult evils spring, right?
	And so the agony of what it is like to live in the skin of somebody who has brutalized a child is something that is hard to imagine, it's hard to comprehend.
	But they feel they were justified.
	They feel they were entirely justified.
	Absolutely they do.
	And so what I'm saying is that, let's say there's a guy who smokes two packs of cigarettes a day.
	The damage accumulates to his lungs, whether he admits that smoking is bad or not, right?
	He can say, no, smoking is good for you, but it doesn't have any effect on how the smoke is affecting his lungs, right?
	I can say that arsenic is a wonderful chaser.
	To a nice Mouton Cadet, right?
	But that does not make it a wonderful chaser, unless I'm chasing death, to a wine, right?
	So I can say that what I did is not harmful, but that does not change how that sits within me.
	In fact, all I've done is add another crime to my previous crimes, which is lying and evasion, right?
	I mean, what do you think it would be like to be married to your mother?
	I mean, let's say you had to move in and sleep beside her every night and wake up with her every morning and come home to her again every night and then go to bed with her and sleep beside her every night for the next, say, 40 years.
	Would you view that as possibly the worst sentence you could ever impose upon anyone?
	Yes, but... Do you have an enemy outside your family that you hate enough that if you could snap your fingers and pass that sentence upon that person to have to live with your mother for the next 40 years, do you have an enemy that you hate enough outside your family that you would provide that sentence to them if you could?
	No, but my dad seems completely oblivious to that.
	But that doesn't matter.
	It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
	It doesn't matter that he seems completely oblivious to it.
	Do you know what it means that he's completely oblivious to it?
	Do you know what it means to his future, Tess?
	The fact that he is completely oblivious to it means only one thing.
	That he will never escape it.
	That's the price of obliviousness.
	That he will never get away.
	In fact, the more you hate your father, the more you should pray for him to continue to be oblivious and defensive and avoidant.
	Because the more he is trapped in this sick little prison.
	If he were no longer oblivious...
	The vengeance that you want would cease to be.
	That's true. I'd hate it if he got better.
	Of course you would. Then he really would be escaping it.
	Yeah, fair point.
	So we don't, you know...
	It is people who don't understand the actions of the conscience, and I don't mean by this you, but it's people who...
	Who have been violated or wronged or brutalized by people when they were children, they have to invent avenging gods and devils and hell because they don't accept and understand that we don't die to go to hell.
	And if you really hated a guy, Who was a chain smoker and you wanted him to die a painful death.
	And again, I'm not talking about necessarily this with you, with your father.
	It's just an analogy. But if you knew a guy and you wanted him to die a slow and painful death and he was a chain smoker and he was of the opinion that smoking was good for you, would you want to change his mind?
	No. Of course not.
	You'd be like, hey, sail on, brother.
	I know what awaits. I'm not going to try and enlighten you.
	Because the primitive part of me that likes to taste the blood of my enemies is enjoying knowing where you're going.
	Now, the difference is you can enjoy smoking and then later you get sick, but that's not the case when you live with abusive, destructive people.
	Yeah, completely right.
	Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, but the Lord is simply the conscience.
	And the conscience is just UPB embedded in the brain.
	UPB is not something that is invented, it is discovered.
	So you don't have to lift a finger.
	And if you really want to torture him, then leaving is going to be painful for him, right?
	Indirectly.
	Oh, sure.
	Sorry. No, not indirectly.
	Because your mother is a social metaphysician, right?
	Your mother is somebody who determines her value, in part, based on other people's view of you all as a happy family, right?
	Yes, and she'll be absolutely devastated and my dad will have to deal with that crap.
	Right, right.
	Right, so she will be exposed and humiliated, right, and the questions will rise, and the gossip, right, I'm sure your mother is a gossip, and so now all the stuff that she did, now it will all come back to haunt her, and, you know, it's, you know, it really is, you know, it's like taking, the defu is, you know, you get away, and the benefit is you pull a pin and throw it into the bunker too.
	Yeah. Yeah. We don't have to lift a finger to make bad people suffer.
	We just have to be free.
	Because the moment that we're free, they are reminded that what they did and do is a choice.
	And that is agonizing, right?
	Yeah. That's so damn beautiful.
	Oh, it is. It is.
	And I, you know...
	There may be a point in your life in the future.
	The degree to which my mother suffers is more than I would be comfortable designing if I had that power.
	But that's simply because it's been a long time and all that kind of stuff, right?
	But the degree to which they will suffer Is incredibly significant.
	And I'm not saying that we want them to suffer.
	Of course, I don't want my mother to suffer.
	What I wanted was a mother that did not end up having to suffer this way.
	What I wanted was a nurturing, loving mother.
	But that's not what I got, right?
	Yeah. So I don't want my mother to suffer because that would be sadistic.
	But given the evils that she's done, I do take some comfort in the fact that The suffering exists.
	Right. Yes.
	Those were the major points that I had.
	And, of course, I've, as usual, loaded up the can of thought and pointed it in your head.
	What do you get out of what it is that I'm saying?
	I mean, is it useful, I guess, first of all, foremost?
	Is there massive gaping stuff that remains unexpressed or untalked about?
	It was extremely useful and I think the major question was on the moral certainty just to be aware that I don't like these people.
	I think that was key. And that's where it all flows from.
	I'm going to take...
	Sorry, was there anything else you wanted to add just now to that?
	No. All right.
	I'm going to take one more swing at something that I remain discontented about in my communication, which may mean that I'm completely wrong, right?
	Or it may mean that there's a good reason to remain discontented.
	I'm still stuck on this point that I think we haven't quite met on, which is that you feel angry.
	You feel the anger might sustain you through the defu, but after the defu you might feel less angry and then you may lose your resolution Um I don't I don't think that's a problem for me and
	I just wanted sufficient drive to reach the point where I was sufficiently morally certain that I wouldn't get caught up in All the consequences,
	the feeling that I have failed by doing this and I've become the very essence of everything I swore that I would prove to them that I wasn't and I don't want to get caught up in that.
	So I figured that the anger was the way to achieve that and I didn't really care whether the anger went away again afterwards.
	Alright, okay. Then we're fine.
	I won't launch my carefully crafted metaphor because there's nothing to hit.
	So that's great. And how do you feel at the beginning of the call?
	You felt nervous.
	You obviously expressed some anger, which I completely respect and understand.
	You had a little bit of nervous laughter at some point.
	And how is it that you're feeling?
	How are you feeling now that we're at this point in the conversation?
	I am...
	I'm feeling relieved that I managed to express what I wanted to express and that it was understood and that there was a solution.
	I feel...
	It's quite overwhelming.
	The sense that there's a step forward that I can take It's a huge liberation.
	It's a beautiful place, this FDR thing, isn't it?
	Yeah. Like, I mean, it really is.
	It is an oasis, you know, in a crazy-ass, befogged, confusing, bit-of-a-shit planet, right?
	I mean, it is a bit of an oasis, right?
	Yes. And that, I mean, that's...
	I mean, I have obviously some part of that, and, you know, it's the community and the listenership as a whole, and, of course, the courage of people like yourself, but it is...
	Pretty freaking unique and I think that's something we can all be very proud of.
	I had no clue what I was walking into when I arrived at FDR. No clue at all.
	Right. And then you know the first thing I hear is people talking about oh it's this cold and I'm like what are they talking about?
	Like okay.
	Well yeah sure and I mean and those people are actually doing quite a bit of service to philosophy right because If people are so insecure or self-doubting or easily goosed that the allegations of nasty little people are going to be what makes their decision, then this is not a good place for them anyway, right?
	So it's good that we have those people kind of diverting those people from wasting time and resources.
	If you can't open the door to the gym, don't go in the gym.
	That's, I think, really important because there's no weight that's lighter than that door handle.
	So if you're frightened to open the door, then don't go into the gym.
	And so we don't have all these people crowding up the machines who can't lift any weights.
	So I think that is actually a good thing, though I'm not necessarily sure.
	I'm not particularly thrilled about the way it all shook out, but the end result of it has been a very positive thing.
	And I don't mean to put you on the spot, and you can certainly tell me that this is not a relevant question or an appropriate question, but what does your heart say in terms of what's next?
	I have a I think I have a problem in that I'm not sure how I'm going to have this conversation out of the blue.
	It just seems strange to have this conversation out of the blue with my parents, or it will probably be with my mother.
	Which conversation? The conversation about...
	I want to take a break from you.
	Because it will seem to her to be completely random.
	And it will come across as more dramatic and more painful.
	And why is it that you need to...
	Sorry, why is it that you need to have that conversation?
	Why do I need to have that conversation?
	Yeah. I'm not saying you do or don't.
	I'm just... You seem very certain about that that's the...
	That's the steps taken.
	Yeah, and I'm always one to ask why, not because I have any criticism or disagreement, not that that would mean anything particular, but why you said that that's the next step to take?
	Because if I don't have that conversation, then I will just continue to slip forward into the next family get-together.
	And... There will be no moving forward.
	Things will carry on. Sorry, so if you don't tell them that you don't, like if you don't sort of make it official that you want to take a break from the family for X or whatever, if you don't make it official, then you will say yes to the next family gathering?
	Yes, and my mother already wants to come and visit me in July.
	So I think the choice would be either to prevent that from happening, or if that happens, then it could very well blow up, and I would end up There would be all the anger thing again, and then it would be terminated at that point, which would be even more messy.
	Right. And how do you see having the conversation?
	Like, there's lots of ways you're going to email or phone or whatever.
	I would not email it.
	I would not email it because I can't stand the idea of waiting to see if I get an email back.
	Well, no, because you email it and then you block the email addresses, right?
	Yeah, well, yes, but then I've tried doing that before, and you always end up seeing it in your junk folder or something, and somehow you become aware of it.
	Yeah, I mean, technically, and again, I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't do, obviously, right?
	You can just have it deleted from the server.
	You never see it, right?
	Yeah, yeah, you're right.
	Yeah. No, I don't think I could do it by email.
	Okay, no problem. I'm just, again, I'm just keeping all the options open because...
	I want, you know, what the most important thing in my opinion is that whatever you do is a choice, right?
	And if you just have a way of doing it that just seems right, but it's not necessarily something that you have looked at all the options, then it won't be quite as firm a thing.
	It won't be quite as what, sorry?
	It won't be quite as firm a stand if you haven't explored the options and other ways of doing it.
	Like if you settled on this as the best way, it sounds like it's perfectly fine.
	Then, you know, you would just go in more strong if you've looked at all the options.
	Okay, I understand. And do you have any thoughts or ideas about what you're going to say?
	I... I think I would go with the conversation that you suggested in the last five minutes of the...
	I think it was the Joy of Anger one or maybe it was the...
	No, it wasn't the Joy of Anger one.
	It was the... There was one of a few...
	about some guy who was struggling with his mother, who was very needy.
	And the last five minutes of the podcast, you basically gave a, here's what I would say to her.
	And there was a speech about you, if you go into therapy, then you can send me brief emails about your progress Don't talk about us but just talk about the progress you're making and then maybe at the end of six months we'll see what progress has been made and we may be able to continue from that point on.
	So I quite liked that approach and I actually thought that There's a chance my mother might go for that one.
	Actually, I could see her wanting to do that.
	Do you think you mean go for therapy?
	Yeah, but I think that if it was just my mum, she might do that because of the fear of social humiliation would be a sufficient driver to make her do that.
	But I think my dad would try to stop her and he would tell her that it was my problem and that it wouldn't be worth it in his usual way.
	Right, but what would you say would be the reasons why, because you'd say, well, why?
	You know, why would you want to take a break or whatever, right?
	Well, actually, that would be quite easy.
	I would just say, well, because I don't like you and I don't feel like this relationship is helping me, because...
	Every time I express something that's really important to me, you say something that makes me feel really uncomfortable and unhappy and I've spent 20 years trying to improve the situation and it hasn't improved and I don't think it ever will improve because Somehow it always ends up being my fault,
	and therefore I think it's necessary for me to take a break while I go into therapy myself.
	And also, you know, I'm looking to go on this course to train as a therapist, so I'm looking to get my own self-understanding via that route as well as by being in therapy as well.
	Right. Great.
	Great. I would make one tiny suggestion.
	You know, if you're truly done with someone, then usually there's not a need to present complaints, if that makes sense.
	I know I understand that, and I was trying not to.
	No, no, and I don't want to give you a script, please.
	I really don't, right?
	Because this is such a personal process.
	I'm just giving you some crap feedback.
	Not that what you're saying is crap, but maybe complete crap feedback.
	But, you know, if you decide, I mean, to take a silly example, if you decide not to go to a restaurant, you don't have to explain to them why you're not going to the restaurant.
	You just don't go to the restaurant, right?
	Right. Like they serve you, I don't know, booger sandwich, right?
	Or something like that. And they say, why aren't you coming back?
	It's like, well, I don't like the food.
	Whatever, right? It doesn't have to be any particular detail because what that does is it does two things.
	One is that it's very provocative to people who are dangerous to you.
	Yeah. Right?
	Like you don't poke the bear with a stick, right?
	I mean, again, this is my opinion, right?
	So it's very provocative to people who have been violent and aggressive with you in the past.
	And I'm not saying that they would do that in the present, but still, it is provocative to people who are dangerous, right?
	Because you're basically bringing all that kind of stuff, right?
	So that would be my sort of first thought about it.
	The second is that I can guarantee you that it is going to provoke a debate.
	Right, yeah, I understand.
	And of course a debate is totally fine, right?
	But if you want to debate with someone, then you're not done with them, right?
	And that's a process, right?
	And it's funny because I knew that as soon as I started talking, but I couldn't help myself.
	No, no, I know. Look, you kid me.
	I mean, the number of times I'm like Carlito's way, you know, every time I try to get out, they pull me back in, right, with trolls, with people who are destructive.
	It is... It is my frickin' curse to be pulled into this as well, and it is natural and inevitable.
	And maybe that's what you need to do, right?
	But my suggestion is that if you feel the need to get them to understand that you have legitimate complaints, then you're not done with the relationship.
	Yeah. Well, I've spent a long time trying to get them to understand that I have legitimate complaints and failed miserably.
	Yes, yes, of course, of course, right?
	That makes sense, right?
	Because if they're sadistical people, and I'm not saying they are or aren't, but if they are, then the fact that you have complaints is a plus for them, right?
	The fact that you're hurt is, you know, it's certainly not a negative, right?
	So that's just a thought that I have, right?
	That my... The way that I ended up doing it, of course I did it a number of different times, but I need to work on some stuff, and I need to take a break in the family so that I can just work on my own stuff.
	I'm going to take some therapy, I'm going to just work out stuff, and I don't feel like I'm contributing much to the family, and I just need to take a break.
	I don't know what's to do with the family, what's to do with me, so I just need to take a break and try and get my head screwed on right now.
	You would suggest that she should go into therapy?
	You would just ignore that completely?
	Yeah, I mean, look, your mother, in my opinion, is not a candidate for therapy.
	Like, not. I mean, that's just not going to happen.
	You know, that's less like asking, you know, an 80-year-old asthmatic to try out for So You Think You Can Dance, right?
	Well, she does always say, you know, in her reaction to, you know, her very irrational view on homosexuality that, you know, she just believes it's wrong.
	That was the way she's brought up and she's not going to change now.
	And no amount of rational argument is ever going to change that point of view.
	And I don't even know where that comes from.
	Well, it comes from the Bible.
	Well, she doesn't really believe it.
	So she's very clear about not changing, right?
	She's very clear about not changing.
	Yeah, and in my experience, and again, in my very strong opinion, though of course I cannot prove it, if you do enough evil, you simply can't change.
	Like, if you do enough wrong, and if the wrong that you do is irredeemable, in other words, if it can't be undone, if no restitution is possible, right?
	So let's say... I steal your watch.
	Well, I can buy you a new watch and give you 200 quid for your trouble, right?
	And you sort of say, okay, well, we're even, right?
	You did me wrong. You've done restitution.
	You've taken a few bullets or whatever, right?
	If I'm your friend and I say something mean to you, I can apologize and I can figure out why and tell you why and it's not your fault, right?
	So, I mean, ethics is not about perfection, right?
	Any more than health is about never eating a candy bar, right?
	But if you do enough wrong...
	That it can no longer be undone.
	Yes. Then change is no longer possible.
	Because what you will discover is that you have done irredeemable wrong.
	That you are an evil person.
	And I don't know what the next stop after that is.
	Because those people never go there, right?
	Maybe you're throwing yourself off a cliff.
	I don't know. But if you have...
	And harming a child in a conscious, consistent, significant, long...
	Standing way is completely irredeemable because it can't be undone.
	You can't ever have the childhood that you should have had.
	You can't ever have a happy childhood.
	You can't ever be the person.
	If she ever saw herself from my perspective, then she wouldn't be able to look herself in the mirror, I suppose.
	Well, she wouldn't be able to get out of bed.
	I mean, her whole life would just have been a destructive, vile and evil ruin, right?
	Yeah. So she's not going to go to therapy.
	People who harm children repeatedly simply do not go to therapy unless it's court-ordered or whatever, right?
	And then it doesn't work, right?
	Because therapy is about motivation and a desire to live a happier life.
	And self-knowledge to you will lead to happiness.
	Self-knowledge for your mother, not so much, right?
	Not so much, no.
	So... So I think that dangling that out there is kind of manipulative because it's really not a realistic option.
	Again, in my opinion, you may disagree with me and you could be completely right.
	This is just my opinion, right?
	But I think that dangling that out there is kind of a trick.
	It's kind of a manipulation. Because if your mother did, I mean, the worst thing that would be for your mother to say, fine, I'm going to go to therapy and I'm going to contact you in six months.
	How would you feel if she said that?
	I wouldn't want that to happen.
	Right, so you don't hold something out when, well, here's the conditions under which we will see each other again, when you absolutely do not want those conditions to be fulfilled, because it will just make things worse.
	So I wouldn't hold that kind of stuff out.
	Okay. Unless you have a condition under which you would, and then, you know, because that's around the sort of basic honesty, most of all with yourself, right?
	Yep. Now, I can't remember the particulars about the guy in the podcast that you mentioned, but I don't believe.
	I think his mother was more needy and dependent, but I don't recall that there being a history of significant physical and emotional abuse.
	And just to make it plain, my mother was never physically violent towards me.
	She always let my dad do it.
	So I just wanted to make that clear.
	I don't know why I'm defending her, but it seems somehow appropriate.
	Well, but that's because your dad did it for her, right?
	Right. Because she said X, Y, and Z to your dad knowing exactly what he was going to go and do.
	So, to me, she's as responsible.
	Yeah. Yes, that's true.
	I mean, if I bring home a dog that attacks my child and don't protect my child from that dog and then further provoke that dog and lock it in the room with the child, I'm the one who's abusing too, right?
	Yes. So...
	And I just, you know, if you're going to take the step, and for what it's worth, it seems like a wise step to me, to say the least.
	But if you're going to take the step, I would put it all on you.
	Give them as many outs as possible to think of you as just a bad person who needs to go and get fixed.
	Whatever it takes to get out, right?
	Okay. You know, if you're trying to get out of prison, you lie to the guard, you don't complain about the food, you just, you know, whatever it takes to get out and have them miss you as little as possible and feel as little as possible to come after you because of vengeance or provocation.
	That would be my suggestion, particularly because there has been a history of violence.
	Yes, when you put it like that, it does make perfect sense that I should just...
	Take the blame on myself one last time or pretend to.
	Yeah, I mean, whatever it takes to keep them away, I think is really important.
	And I don't think you want them to get the complaints, have them sit in their heads and then have their emotional reaction to those complaints, which will create volatility and an anger and a desire to pursue.
	That would not be my suggestion, right?
	I mean, to take a silly example, and it's only silly because the violence for you is in the past.
	You know, if a wife has an abusive husband, you pack and leave while he's away, right?
	You never confront him.
	You never confront him with his actions and his behavior.
	You simply get out and get to protection, and you don't get into a fight, right?
	Right. And that would save me Right, yeah. I mean, the backlash is really important.
	You know, when you're truly done, you just do whatever it takes to put it in the past, right?
	To get it behind you. And so that's why I suggest not raising the complaints.
	And I'm not saying don't raise the complaints.
	If you genuinely have these complaints that you need to raise and you can do it in a safe environment, then I would suggest doing it so that you can get some closure.
	But If you're just bringing those things up in order to explain why you're leaving, then you're trying to reason with abusive people, which is not going to work.
	Now you say it, I see no reason to raise those complaints at all.
	I don't think that would be productive.
	No, I think quite the opposite.
	I just wanted to mention that because we may not talk before you do it.
	I just wanted to give you that feedback and that suggestion to try and make the aftermath as stress-free as possible.
	Thank you. You're welcome.
	And is there...
	I mean, I don't want to take up your entire evening because I know it's late where you are.
	Is there anything else that you wanted to add to how you're doing just now?
	No, I feel reassured.
	I feel quite confident.
	I feel like there's a very clear path that I am determined to take.
	Great. I'm very, very glad for that.
	And you'll keep us posted about what's happening and how's it going?
	Of course I will, yes.
	Fantastic. And I really just wanted to thank you for, you know, taking the time, staying up, calling from the belly of the...
	To keep us informed.
	And I think you just did wonderfully in the call.
	I know that it's stressful.
	People always say that they're stressed up front or nervous or anxious and they very quickly seem to be relaxed, which is good.
	That's sort of the point, right? So I really do appreciate your honesty and your openness in this call.
	I think it was just fantastic.
	Let someone else have a turn.
	I'm not sure that anyone's going to want to follow that particular call, but I could ask if anybody else wants to add anything.
	Now would be the time.
	That's hard to follow. Well, yeah, I mean, it's not a show, but I know what you mean, right?
	It's like, you know, I'm having a problem with my boss, right?
	I mean, so... So we can, I mean, if people have yearning burnings, just give me a shout.
	Unless you want a very abstract, fun economics question.
	I think that's a good idea, but maybe you and I can do another call about that, because it might be a bit disorienting, and I think it would probably be better for people to process what was just talked about with the fine lady from Wales.
	Okay. All right.
	Well, thank you everybody so much.
	And thank you again to the caller.
	You know, keep us posted. Best of luck.
	I think it's a healthy decision.
	And I certainly do admire your courage in standing up for this kind of stuff.
	And please, do keep us posted.
	And have yourself a wonderful, wonderful week, everyone.
	And I'm going to set up a call just by the by.
	Because I'm going to be debating with Michael Batnarek, who is a very well-versed constitutional scholar.
	And I have developed a series of arguments that I would like to sort of preview with some people.
	So if you're interested in that, just shoot me an email and we'll have a call and I'll step through it.
	And if you know something about the Constitution, that would be even better so I can get a sense of what might be coming my way.
	So thank you everyone so much.
	Have an absolutely wonderful week.
	I appreciate your generosity, your kindness, your support.
	As always, you magnificent bastards.

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