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June 15, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:18:50
1393 Ambition - A Conversation

A brave listener looks deep into his future, and weeps...

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Let's stay away from Jay Bird, maybe.
All right. Jay Vulture?
Jay Eagle! Jay Vulture.
So, we were chatting at the BBQ Weekend about ways in which you could...
Was it motivation and stuff like that around your career that you feel you may be underperforming a tad?
Yeah. Well, yeah, definitely.
I ended up performing relative to my desires and abilities.
Agreed. And I have been ever since leaving college, I guess, basically.
And so, yeah, that was definitely where the conversation started.
And I don't know if it was the same conversation or...
Part of it, but I also, it was another part of that conversation about deferral of gratification.
Yes, yes.
That I think is really, and I think you were starting to draw a connection when the conversation had to stop between the two.
And I think, you know, as the weekend went on at the barbecue and since then, I've thought a lot more about the deferral of gratification and where else it shows up in my life.
And it's just that problem of non-deferral of gratification, I noticed is just all...
Right, right.
All right. And just remind me, because I was pretty drunk the whole weekend, so just remind me what the deferral of gratification, where we left that with regards to your life.
Well, we left basically...
I think the reason it came up is because I had a job that I enjoyed, and then I wouldn't have minded moving forward in.
Right. But it was low pay.
It was at a coffee shop that I could have moved up within the company, and I liked the way the company worked.
But it was low pay at a time when I was...
Interested in more toys.
Right, interested in more toys.
Because you like the electronics as your crack, right?
Right, exactly. And I had also...
There was basically a short period of time when I didn't have any health insurance.
And while that was going on, of course, that's the time when I had to go to the hospital for a terrible infection in my leg.
And... I had medical bills to pay for and things on top of all of the debt I had accumulated from that crack of electronic toys.
The ironic thing is that you left your job, which I assume had some health insurance because you felt the pay was low, and then you ended up having to foot some medical bills yourself, right?
Well, no. It was right as I was starting that job.
I had to get the medical attention, so it was before I had the insurance from that job.
Right, right, okay. Yeah, it was previous to that.
That's too bad, because the irony of that would have been quite beautiful, but...
It would have been. Well, you know what, we can just edit this.
We can't tie that together, it's sad, really, because if I was writing a book, that's how it would go.
But anyway. Right.
So then you move to a job that you're doing now.
Sorry to interrupt. So people who don't know that conversation, you move to a job that...
The pay is better, but the opportunities for advancement...
are small and the amount of brain stimulation is virtually non-existent, right?
Right, and my desire for advancement within the company I work for now is almost zero.
I mean, I don't like the company at all compared to the previous one I worked for with lower pay and more advancement opportunities.
And so, yeah, So I had...
And the idea in my head at the time was kind of seen in my head.
I don't know if it's a story. It's sort of a sacrifice to get that done.
But then kind of looking back, it's not taking care of that problem.
So the problem is something different.
The problem wasn't that I needed more money.
The problem was, I think, very heavily...
debt-related and like we were saying, the deferral of gratification stuff.
It's heavily related to that bad decision career-wise.
Right, right, right.
Okay. And is there a particular way that you'd like to approach the topic now?
Do you want to talk? Do you want me to ask questions?
What would you prefer?
Well, I'd like to Bring something up that, because like I said, I've had a few conversations about this topic since we've had that conversation, and it's kind of taken me down the road of that unid referral of gratification, specifically relative to money spending, but with other stuff too.
And it reminded me of something from a A few podcasts, quite a while back, where there was something that you were saying to people when people were talking about...
I'm sorry to interrupt you.
How are you feeling just now?
Oh, I'm feeling alright.
I am walking around. I just, I'm getting the sense that you may have some anxiety simply because you're taking a long, and again, I'm not saying I'm ever perfect with this, but you're taking a long time to get to the point.
Oh, no, that's absolutely, that's something that I have a problem with.
And it's not, I'm sorry to, I'm just trying to keep these calls at reasonable lengths, and so, you know, you're taking a few minutes to get to the point, and I'd rather if you could just Get to the point of what it is that you want to talk about if you would indulge me.
I'd really appreciate it. You know,
to me, it would feel like, and I know it's perfectly logically valid, like, yes, you just don't spend money.
Yeah, it kind of is that simple, but it's not easy, right?
It's like to stop smoking, you just have to not pick up a cigarette, right?
But nobody's saying that that's all you have to do, right?
But it is that simple, right?
You just have to not spend money.
And the best you can do in the short run is just not spend money, because you can't increase your income usually very easily in the short run, but you can just not spend money, right?
So if my donations are low, I simply don't spend money on whatever it is I was going to spend money on for FDR, because I can't control the donations, but I can control my spending, right?
If donations go up, then I'll spend more money on FDR and upgrade things and advertise and this and that, but if not, I won't, right?
I'm the only variable I can control easily in that scenario.
Right, absolutely. And I do know...
I definitely on an intellectual level understand saving and budgeting and all kinds of stuff.
I've got all the kind of information I need about that, but I still have Some big-time problems with actually applying it, and that's where I kind of get confused, you know?
I'm sorry, where do you get confused?
Well, I get confused because I understand how it works, you know, mechanically, like how savings works and how all that works, but I still have emotional problems.
Locks or something else getting in the way of me actually doing that because it's not a matter.
I'm just saying it's not a matter of not knowing how.
Oh, yeah. No, listen. Saving is one of the easiest things to do, right?
Because it's not doing something.
I mean, with smoking, you buy a pack of cigarettes and they're just sitting around, right?
And you have the cigarettes, right?
And so they're there. Whereas to go and buy something like an iPod or something, right?
You've got to look up the flyers, you've got to look online, you've got to get reviews, you've got to figure out what kind you want, how much memory do you want, you've got to go and buy it, you've got to unpack it.
So it's more active to go and spend money.
Than it is, usually, than it is, say, to, you know, you've got alcohol in the house, you have a drink, you've got cigarettes around, you have a smoke, or you're at a party, you bum one, or whatever, right?
So it's usually more involved to go and spend money shopping.
Typically, and typically for me, at the time of purchase of something like an iPod, I kind of go drooly and unconscious and say, ooh, you know, shiny, pretty want.
I can order it on the internet in, like, two minutes.
It doesn't take much longer than buying a pack of cigarettes, really.
Oh, right. So, because for me, around shopping, there's a whole set of rituals, right?
And that's just because I'm a tightwad, right?
So, for me, shopping is like huge amounts of research and trying to find the best price and figuring out if I want the extended warranty and looking at the...
Right, exactly. For certain things.
I mean, I'll research other stuff.
But yeah, for certain stuff, no, I'll just...
I'll just go with base quant shiny, like you were saying.
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Alright, and the idea of not buying something, how does that feel emotionally?
Like if you were to say, okay, give me something that you bought that you felt you could have avoided.
We might as well stick with the iPod.
I already had a working one and I bought the new one.
The iPod Touch, you mean?
Right, yeah. And you bought it for what reason?
What was your theory about why you needed it or wanted it?
Well, let's see.
It would just have been that it was such a leap in technology to have the applications and all that sort of stuff, all the new stuff that's on there.
And it's something that's at least of interest to me, you know, kind of Outside the base want for it.
I just find technology fascinating in its own way.
And what did you do with your old iPod?
I still have it.
I haven't sold it or anything.
And why not? That I don't know.
For sure. I know that there is definitely the idea in my head that I wouldn't get much for it just because of the way they structure their They're upgrades, you know, that it's easy to buy the new ones relatively cheaply compared to buying used ones.
Right, so you maybe get $100 versus like a new iPod Touch is like $250 or whatever, or $300, so you maybe get $100 or $120 or whatever for the old one?
Right, exactly. But that's not a reason not to sell it, necessarily.
I don't know why I haven't done that.
Well, I mean... It's because it's half off the new one, right?
So if you can sell it for $120 and the new one is $240, then you get the new one for $120, which is a little easier to justify and so on.
Right, right. Okay.
And was there a must-have?
And I'm just trying to figure out your shopping reasoning.
Was there a must-have application?
I mean, I bought an iPod Touch.
I, weirdly enough, got it for like $200.
Now they're $250. How often does that happen, right?
But I did get an iPod Touch, and the reason that I got it was that I babysit a lot, and I want to be able to check my emails without having to take the baby to a computer, right?
Without having to take Isabella to the computer, just in case there's something important or something urgent, or I get a donation which makes me happy, or in case there was a troll on the board or something.
I wanted to be able to check my email without...
Having to go to a computer, right?
Because if I'm babysitting, Isabella's on the floor, I don't want to have to keep picking her up to go and check stuff.
Going up the stairs and stuff, right?
It's just not fun. I never liked climbing stairs with a baby, even if I got two hands on her.
You know, we always feel, oh my God, I could trip or whatever.
So for me, there was the necessity of getting something like this.
It's not absolute, but it became much more important when I was babysitting, right?
Because I needed something.
Portable for where I was, you know, with the baby.
And so, and also I was interested in the possibility of using it as a Skype call device so that I could roam around the house if I was babysitting without being tired to the rather short lease of the wireless mic.
You know, just stuff like that. So for me, there was some, you know, it wasn't absolutely necessary, but there was a real benefit.
Plus, it's a write-off because, of course, I'm using it for work.
And there was, of course, the shiny new toy factory, which was not unimportant for me.
But I did a lot of research, of course.
Am I going to get a netbook?
Am I going to get a PSP? Am I going to get an iPod Touch?
I did a lot of research before I went out and bought it.
But for me, that was a little bit more of a necessity.
Was there anything like that for you, where there was something that was important for you about the technology that was of more sort of immediate benefit?
More of a nice to have in the fact that having the internet in my pocket whenever I'm around a Wi-Fi connection was a nice thing, but it wasn't something to the degree like you're talking about, you know, using it for work specifically or making life easier while, you know, with Isabella.
Right. And for me, and I believe it or not, I do actually go through these silly things.
And I'm just pointing this out as another way of looking at your shopping.
So I figured, okay, well if I'm spending an hour a week going up and down the stairs to check the computer with a baby, and I have the iPod for two years, that's like 104 hours that I don't have to spend because it just pings me if there's email and I can check it right away while I'm sitting there playing with her or whatever.
So for me it was like, okay, so I get to save 100 hours and it's going to cost me $200 because I just got the 8 gig one because I don't really want to put music on it.
So for me, it was like, okay, so would I spend two dollars an hour to not have to go and check email carrying a baby?
And for me, it was like, hell yeah, right?
So for me, that was sort of the rough calculation.
And there may be some ways for you to look at that kind of stuff, to look at what it is you're saving, how much you expect to save, what is the amount of money per hour that you're saving, and so on.
And when you can't justify it, you might want to revisit it.
But that's, you know, I said, well, I wouldn't want to spend, I wouldn't spend 20 bucks an hour For that benefit.
But, you know, I'd spend two or three bucks an hour, and that sort of fell within the price range there for me.
So it's just ways of looking at things to break it down.
I keep having this conversation with Christina, right?
When there's something that we have to do that she wants to do, but other people can do for us, right?
So, you know, we basically are paying people, I don't know, it's like 10 bucks an hour to come and do some Like aerate the lawn and put some fertilizer in and so on.
And she's like, well, we could do that easily.
And I'm like, we certainly could, right?
And we could also cut our own hair and we could, I don't know, figure out how to change the oil in our own cars and so on.
But is your time more valuably spent working on your business or seeing a patient or doing advertising or marketing?
Or is my time better spent doing a listener conversation?
Because lots of people can put holes in your lawn, but very few people, i.e.
one, can either do an FDR conversation or run your clinic, right?
So for me, it's like the cost benefit of this kind of stuff is really important.
And I think it's a good way to try and make decisions in your life.
And of course, I will sometimes make a wrong decision, like I'll I get something refurbished that turns out to not work very well because, you know, like I save 200 bucks and then end up spending 10 hours trying to get it to work and so on.
Then I have to go and buy something new.
So there are times when I calculate wrong, as we all do.
But I think when you look at those kinds of decisions, if you try and break it down into some reasonably objective cost-benefit situation, you know, what is the value?
Let's say you have the iPod Touch for two years.
How often do you spend Time checking the internet at a Wi-Fi place.
How many hours? Well, here's the thing.
I use it quite a lot, but I think to a large degree, it actually distracts from important things to me, you know, so that I'll just kind of, you know, absently grab it and, you know, load up the Facebook application and check my Facebook just because it's right there in my pocket, you know, and I could.
And then... You know, check this other thing.
So I'm not sure. I use it a lot, but I don't know that it's necessarily saving me time.
Right, okay. Yeah, but so what?
I mean, we go to see a movie that doesn't save us time at all, right?
Right. But, um...
Yeah, I get it. I do it because it's pleasurable, right?
Right, right. Right, okay.
So these are just ways to think about it, but these aren't particular calculations that you have.
For you it is just like, It's like, I really, really want it, and if I deny myself, what does that mean?
What does it mean for you if you can't, if you just say no?
And I'm not saying if you should or shouldn't, but we'll just go with this particular example.
But what does it mean for you emotionally if you say, I'm not going to get it, or I'm going to get it in six months, or I'm whatever, right?
Well, and, yeah, and I've done that before, too, that I'll, you know, like, I'll get it in.
X amount of time or I'll see whether I can hold over a little money from the next paycheck to make it easier to buy.
Let's see.
I'm trying to get at the actual emotions, the thoughts that come back up when I do end up going back and buying it, going against that.
that idea that I'd wait.
Well, let's go with something easier, because I know it can be tricky to get the feelings.
Let's go with something that's a little more immediate.
It would be entirely possible for you to sell both your iPod and your iPod Touch for about the same price as your iPod, right?
Yes. So if you were to say, well, you know, I can't really justify this, so I'm just going to sell this stuff, like today, and then I won't have it.
I mean, how does that make you feel?
Well, that would make me kind of I mean, that would make me angry if that was something that I felt that I had to do.
Okay, and what's the anger?
What's that to do with? I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do this, you understand.
I'm just saying, what are the feelings? Oh, right, absolutely.
Well, because I do get use out of the...
Out of the iPod Touch that's worth more to me than what I'd make from selling it at this point.
So what you're saying is this isn't a purchase that you regret?
That is correct.
It's a purchase I regret the timing of.
Because I bought it before I had...
You know, the money saved for it or had a padding enough to comfortably purchase it, you know?
Alright, so what if you were to say to someone, because you see, it's a little frustrating because you don't actually have a big problem with your iPod Touch, right?
So if you're calling up about problems with deferring gratification, but you don't have a big problem with your iPod Touch, then we're not going to get very far, right?
Right. Right, because you seem quite agonized when we talked about your electronics purchases.
About, you know, the degree of debt that you've gotten into and so on, right?
But if you're going to talk about your iPod Touch without any particular kind of regret, then...
Right. Well, then I have...
I mean, yeah, there are definitely things that I have purchased that there's regret about.
You know, I have bought guitars that I don't use, you know, in a similar way.
Okay, so let's go with...
Do you still have those guitars?
Yeah. Yes, I do.
So why don't you sell this stuff?
I mean, the thought that comes up for me and...
I mean, it feels kind of...
to do that.
Sorry, kind of what? You're breaking up there.
All right, let me just wait for a sec.
Okay. Yeah, I was saying...
The idea that comes up for me is that it would be a hassle to do that and get a...
Oh, shit.
Do you have anything else running on your internet?
that you're breaking up for me no I Oh dear oh we lost him
okay hello sorry about that No problem at all. Yeah, so it would be a hassle, right, to sell these things?
Yeah, I mean, that's what...
I'm irritated...
In the moment. By that.
Because I know it's not true in a lot of ways.
What's not true? That it would be more of a hassle than the money that it's worth.
Well, it is a hassle, right?
Right. I mean, it's effort.
Yeah, for sure. Oh, and it is.
Look, I mean, I totally understand that.
I mean, it is a hassle. It's annoying, right?
So, some guy sent me a donation check the other day, made out to Free Domain Radio.
I couldn't cash it, right? It took me like a week to write the letter back to him, you know, send it to find his address, get the check, right?
It's just, it's a hassle, right?
So, it is a hassle for sure, but, you know, it's collecting dust at your house.
It might as well go to some use and, you know, you could Stick something up in your building or at work or just start asking around if anybody wants it.
And even if you only got like 50 bucks for it, it's out of your house and you got 50 bucks, right?
Right. So...
So I think that we're not talking...
I think that, to be perfectly honest, Jason, I think that this is just a big smokescreen.
I don't think this is the real issue because you're actually not expressing any particular discontent about it.
You know, mild irritation is not really the purpose of FDR calls.
You know, my bus was late today.
I need a call with Steph. You know, that doesn't really fit, right?
I'm not saying you're doing anything consciously, you understand, but I just don't think that we're getting to what the issue is.
Well, yeah, that would make sense to me.
So let me tell you what I think the issue might be, and then you can tell me if I'm completely full of turnips, right?
But I'm not going to talk about your electronics purchases because there's just no particular emotional energy there, so...
It's not a big deal.
And you're 27, 28?
How old are you again? 27.
27, thank you. So you're 27, and what does your life look like to you, not ideally, but based on a continuation of current trends when you're 45?
So based on a continuation of what I have been doing?
Yeah.
Okay.
And you don't need to think about it because you already know the answer, right?
Yeah, I do, and I'm already feeling...
Yeah, go on, tell me.
Really sad. I feel really sad.
I understand. I understand.
And I think that's what we want to talk about.
And I respect that it's tough to talk about, and I certainly do respect...
And appreciate, and I feel honored by the feelings that you're feeling, and I think that's important.
So tell me, what does your life look like when you're 45, 18 years from now, based on?
It's based on the current trajectory of my life.
It wouldn't be that much different in...
From the outside, anyway.
I would be working in some kind of job where I can just go and do it and not have to think and make decisions.
Not one where I'm...
Like an entry-level job, I guess is the best way to say it.
Or maybe a step or two above it.
Possibly like... Supervising a group of people doing the same thing, but still doing the job while I'm supervising them.
Yeah, like a team lead or something, right?
Yeah, exactly. Given the current trajectory, it would be with a company that I don't particularly care to work for, or that I outright dislike or despise as their business practices or whatever.
So that's that.
I would, as a result, then I would be kind of just less interested in, less passionate about life in general.
And I think that's the part that's really sad to me.
All right, so tell me a typical weekday when you're 45.
What happens, right?
Let's say you have a day job at doing something, right?
Just so it's not too complicated, right?
So what's your day like?
I'd get up and, you know, take a shower and have some cereal.
Given the current trajectory, I mean, I'd...
I don't know if I probably live in an apartment still.
Yeah, I mean, sure, you're not going to have a house, right?
I mean, if you like the electronics and you don't have a decent income, right, or an income that is, you know, even average, you're not going to have a condo.
So it's unlikely, right? Right.
So you're still living pretty much in the same place or the same type of place you're living now, right?
I would think, yeah. But with a lot of cars.
With a lot of guitars.
A lot of guitars and electronics.
Sorry, go on. Really big TV. Right, absolutely.
And I don't know, maybe a wife, maybe a girlfriend, but definitely not...
Definitely not the happiest I can be, or the...
I don't know the best way to say it, so I'll just say the best I can do, you know?
Yeah. Because of that lack of passion in life that would follow from feeling like life is an entry-level position at a job in a company you don't care for.
That would carry over to so many different aspects of my life.
I'd have breakfast.
I'd go to work.
I would tune out.
And do the job for eight hours.
Like you do now, right? Like I do now.
And the reason I tune out is so that I can avoid wishing I wasn't there.
Well, yeah, you don't really avoid it, but I know what you mean.
Right.
And then I would come home.
I don't know.
I don't know, I would maybe hang out with somebody.
I don't know.
From there, I... Well, sure you do.
Sure you do. Well, we can go back if you want, right?
I think the reason you're stalling here is you're trying to figure out whether you have a wife or a girlfriend when you come home at night, right?
Right. And I'm also trying to figure out whether FDR is in current trajectory, 45-year-old Jason's future.
Okay. Well, I wouldn't worry about that so much, right?
Because let's just work on the continuation of current trends, which is that if FDR is in your current trajectory, It's still not causing you to really change things, right?
Right. Well, it's not causing me to change things regarding passion and career, for sure.
I mean, I definitely have changed quite a lot.
Okay, all right.
Alright, but let's just leave FDR, if you don't mind, right?
We can come back to it if you like. So, tell me the scenario under which you are going to meet.
Let's say that, I mean, am I going to assume that you do want to, say, get married in your life?
That's something that would be on your list?
Yeah, it's on your list.
So, tell me how that's going to work.
What is your, how are you going to meet the woman?
What's she going to be like? How's the courtship going to go if you're working at It's a do-nothing job, right?
Right. Well, it would have to be, in one way or another, another do-nothing job type person.
Or at least someone who...
Well, yeah, because an ambitious person would go kind of nuts with you, right?
Right, absolutely. And an ambitious person.
I would be a cadet to take on for an ambitious girlfriend, you know?
What do you mean? Because I'm, or a wife, I mean, because I'm far in debt, money-wise.
Oh, right, okay. And I'm not, you know, I'm not working out of that at any.
Yeah, so by that time you might have actually gone through a bankruptcy or something.
Right, right, yeah.
Okay, so you meet some woman and, you know, you're interested in her, she's interested in you, and she says, okay, tell me about your life, right?
And what are you going to say?
At that point in your life.
Say 40 or whatever, right? Say you're 40.
Right.
35.
What are you going to say?
I would say I-- If I was interested in her,
I would want to say that it's better than it is, but I'm having a really hard time coming up with the words for that right now.
Well, sure, because, I mean, you wouldn't want to start with a falsehood if you really like someone, right?
Right, because we want to have the kind of life that we don't have to embellish, right?
And if you have, and see, to me, whether you have the highfalutin or lowfalutin job isn't particularly relevant.
It's relevant to your desires and expectations, right?
So if you have a philosophy which says, look, all I want to do is go to work, come home, watch some TV, play with my iPod, and go to bed, and that's, to me, a great life, then you're in accordance with your values, right?
Right. And so you can describe that without shame.
Or you could at least say, look, I know some people would consider that kind of a waste of my talents and abilities, but to me, you know, life is just about enjoying the moment, and that's what I like to do in the moment, and I don't have any desires or ambitions for anything grander or greater, so that is the way I want to live my life, and I'm very happy with the choices that I've made.
Maybe that's possible, right?
I'm sure it is possible.
I'm certain it's not.
I've never met somebody who has abilities, and you're obviously very intelligent, and not to mention extremely witty.
I mean, you're very, very funny.
I've never met anyone who has abilities, who undershoots to the degree that you are, who stays happy or even remotely content.
But the problem is the unhappiness kicks in when it's too late to change.
Because if the unhappiness kicks in when you're 35 or 40, it's really hard to undo that damage, right?
Like nobody wants, nobody tries to become a doctor when they're 80, right?
Right, so if you kind of dum-de-dum your way through the days, you know, on the spur of the moment, and should I buy the iPod or not, rather than what kind of life do I want to design for myself in a decade, you know, and all of the implications that go with that, right?
Like, I mean, who am I going to have in my life if I don't take on my fears?
What kind of example am I going to set if I end up having kids?
What kind of person am I going to end up having kids with?
Who are my friends going to be?
How are the people 20 years my junior going to look at me if I'm supposed to be supervising them and have some authority?
And they look at me and say, well, wait a second.
You're just kind of having authority over me, but look at what you've done with your life or rather not done with it, right?
It'd be kind of humiliating.
Because you can, I mean, particularly you're kind of a baby-based guy, right?
And you're very charming. So you can get away with this for quite some time, right?
But, you know, the bill always comes due, right?
Right. But, so tell me a little bit more.
And I hope you understand. I'm certainly not criticizing.
I'm just trying to point out the inevitable realities, right?
Right. No, it's not taken as criticism at all.
That's I mean, if this is the life you want, I'm not going to argue you with it, right?
But you're discontented and you're fearful and you feel very sad when you look at the future.
I'm really, really sad right now.
Alright, so tell me, it's enough about my yammering.
Tell me about what you're experiencing.
It was specifically when you said that it's a perfectly valid lifestyle choice to want to just work at a job that you don't have to think about and Buy the newest iPod and whatever and tool around on the internet at night.
And that's true.
And it's true that that's a valid lifestyle choice, but it is absolutely not what I want.
Yeah, it's completely depressing, right?
It's completely depressing, absolutely.
Yeah, because you're going to look back at the end of your life, and you're going to say, well, I played some video games, I tooled around on the internet, I never had real love, I never had children, or if I did, they didn't particularly respect me, and I couldn't be very helpful to them.
I underachieved my whole life, and now the earth is going to close over me, and I will be no more, and why was I so scared?
Right. And the...
The barbecue has been turning a lot of this up for me because like you had said in one of the podcasts you released or whatever, it kind of gave me a really significant compared to what for how relationships with people can work.
It was really, really moving for me, really eye-opening for me.
The regard of how I want my everyday, daily interactions to be with the people around me that I care about as soon as possible.
I've had this idea of moving to be near people that I care about, and it's becoming more...
It's a big motivator for me, at least.
It feels like it has been so far.
Until now, I haven't been in therapy, but I just started therapy last week.
Fantastic.
And I want to turn on the afterburners like you had talked about a while back with Phil last week.
I want to hit that and go but yeah but it's hard to know how right And break out of this crushing, this just totally crushing monotony.
Right. So I've got a question.
Sorry, go ahead. It kills my creativity, and I feel like that's one of the things I would have to offer the world.
I agree. You're very inventive, and again, your humor is a significant gift, which can really enlighten people, right?
Yeah, and that's something I'd be interested in bringing to bear on the world, but when I think about how it makes me anxious, sure.
Sure. So, I've got another question for you, if you don't mind.
Sure. Sure.
It's like you're carrying out a prison sentence.
Sure. You know, called solitary, small, inconsequential confinement, you know?
Like you just got dumped in a cell with, you know, eight by eight, and you're just trying to make the best of it, right?
Right. So who sentenced you to this little life of anxious inconsequentiality?
What did you do that was so wrong that you got sentenced to this in the eyes of someone?
Or who would have been threatened by you not having this little life?
How did you end up in this little cell?
Right.
I mean, that's my parents.
What? That is already the life that my mom lives.
What do you mean? Of small desires, moment to moment and daily pleasures.
No. Bigger life goals, necessarily.
Sorry, necessarily, what do you mean?
That's a word that dilutes what you're saying, so no, you mean she has some major life goals?
No, it was that I can think of, so I guess that's another dilution.
Yeah, because if you can't, I mean, we know our parents very well.
I would know, yeah. You would know.
Sorry, I'm just not trying to catch you.
I just want to make sure I was...
Like, if there's ambiguity, I want to know it, right?
And if there's not, then I just want to check on that.
that.
So sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, absolutely.
No, No larger life goals, right?
I think we could be... No ambition, no larger goals.
And my dad...
While he does have a successful career, he has really, really low self-esteem.
Right. To the point where he had told me a few times later on, when I wasn't a kid anymore, when I was in my 20s, He would tell me that,
you know, he admired my optimism and my outlook on life and people because he just feels like people hate him or, you know, the world automatically dislikes him and people are no good.
Right, and I certainly don't get that sense from you, that that's your opinion.
No, that's not even close to my perspective.
Right, okay. And, uh, sorry, were you going to say something else?
Um, just that those are the kind of people who would absolutely be threatened by the kind of kid that I would have been, that I was.
So, okay, two questions there.
First question is, of course, the kind of kid that you were.
Tell me about that. Right.
Right, because I was, uh, incredibly inquisitive, uh, I'm curious about everything I could think of.
People in the world and how relationships worked and why.
I liked to do lots of different things.
So when I was a kid, my dad was a computer programmer when I was growing up.
And I asked him to teach me How to program computers.
He did that a little bit to what extent we could on our home computer.
I would do all kinds of creative things.
I would write a lot. I would make up movies and commercials with their camcorder and stuff like that.
I don't know if this is helpful at all.
Very, very helpful, right? So you had an energetic, curious, creative spirit, right?
I was go, go, go.
And what was your parents' emotional reaction to this aspect of yourself?
Or not even this aspect, to yourself, right?
It's not even an aspect, this is you, right?
Right. Right.
And it was almost always indifference.
Right. Right, except that's not quite true.
Right. We can never be indifferent to our children any more than we can be indifferent to our parents, right?
Right, exactly. So I experienced it as indifference as a kid.
No. No, you didn't experience it.
Indifference is the story that you have as an adult.
You experienced it as something quite different when you were a child.
Okay. Well...
Sorry, the reason that I'll say that is...
The vast majority of people in this planet are completely indifferent to what I'm doing at FDR, because they've never heard about it.
Or even if they have, they don't care, right?
Right. But that indifference doesn't stop me in my tracks.
So indifference is not a descriptive enough phrase, because it has stopped you, right?
Oh yeah. Right, so it's got to be more than indifference.
It's got to be something more personal that you experienced.
Right. Well, and I know when I said indifference, I knew that indifference was covering up.
Right. Okay, so good.
I don't have to get into that, so let's get the...
Yeah, no, I'm there. I'm there already.
already.
It was rejection.
Go on.
It was that those ambitions threatened their desire or their capacity to stay small themselves.
Right. And that I wasn't interested in living small and keeping quiet.
No, no, no. It wasn't that you weren't interested.
Children are more passionate than that, right?
Thank you. You had particular thoughts and feelings about your parents and their smallness, let's say, right?
That was not indifference and right...
What was it? Right. Oh, my feelings about my parents' smallness?
Yeah. So they would be, you know, indifference to a child's enthusiasm is squelching.
It's crippling. It's right.
I mean, it's not neutral.
Right. Right.
Right.
Oh, my experience of their indifference, that would have made me very angry.
Right.
Anger one?
Because, well, because they were my access to the world, you know.
They were my way of getting at The camcorder and my tape recorder that I'd make radio shows on.
And you would have no idea whether what you were doing was interesting or not.
Except based on your parents' reaction.
I'm telling you this as a parent, right?
I mean, Isabella doesn't have any idea what's funny.
She only knows what makes us laugh.
Yeah. She can only read what she's doing in our reactions.
She doesn't know right from wrong.
She only knows what we approve of or disapprove of.
She doesn't know that picking up a plant leaf is bad, because we don't know what's on it, versus picking up one of her clean toys.
She doesn't know that plant leaf, but she only knows our reaction to that.
Is it something that we approve of or disapprove of?
Right. So her identity, her sense of self, her sense of what works, her sense of humanity, her sense of connection, is so defined by our reactions to her.
And a lack of reaction to her would give her the feeling of non-existence and anger.
Because she would perceive it, rightly so, as withholding.
Right. As selfish.
And in a lot of ways, that is where I'm stuck with regards to creative things, too.
That I... That I don't feel like it's real or has value outside...
You know, that I have to run it by a whole bunch of people before I can convince myself that it's any good.
Oh, sure. Absolutely.
Of course. Of course.
I mean, how could it be otherwise, right?
Because it's still unconscious, right?
I don't know that this connection...
Sorry. I don't know that this connection is very clear to you.
Does that make sense? Right.
No, and this is something that's come up before, but just, like...
You know, and I knew it was related but not in this kind of detail.
Let me ask you this question then.
So let's go back to you at 45.
Okay. And you have a seven-year-old kid bursting with enthusiasm who wants to make videos, who wants to do stand-up, who wants to engage people, who wants to be creative, right?
Right. And you're going to some dumbass, low-rent, brain-dead job every day, having rejected all of your creativity and enthusiasm for the sake of comforting people who are scarcely worth your time.
How are you going to feel looking at the limitless possibilities for your son and his enthusiasms and his excitement?
how are you going to feel about your life in the face of that it's a failure are you going to be able to say to him you can do anything you set your mind to Courage and perseverance will get you anything that your heart desires?
I'm going to resent it.
Go on. I'd have to resent it.
Because I'd have to.
I'd have to have convinced myself on some level that it's not possible.
Yeah, it would be a complicated conversation to have at the very least.
Because to be truly honest, you'd have to say, I'm going to tell you a whole bunch of stuff that I don't really believe.
Right. Right?
Because of course our children don't judge our words, they judge our deeds, right?
Just like everybody does, right?
Right. I'm going to tell you you can do anything that you want, But clearly I'm not doing anything that I want, right?
Right. So it'd be a confusing conversation, to say the least, right?
Right. And the sad thing, of course, is it would make his enthusiasm become about your failure, right?
Right, it would be a repeat of...
It wouldn't be as bad, right?
It wouldn't be as bad. I mean, trust me, right?
There would be an improvement.
But instead of him being able to enjoy his enthusiasm, it would become about your depression and feelings of loss and ineffectiveness and so on, right?
Right. Which would be kind of a heavy load to place upon a shining, enthusiastic young child.
Right, so if I wanted to be a filmmaker, I'd...
Encourage him too much or force him into that kind of thing, possibly.
Yeah, you would not be able to be objective, available, and open to him, right?
Right. Right.
So, like, I mean, I always try to make the listener calls about the listener, right?
So they don't end up with me getting all passionate about something they don't really care about and then wonder why it's so important to me when it's not important to them.
And there's all those mismatches.
I try to, you know, wrap around the listener's needs like a...
You know, like a pitcher wraps around the water that's in it, right?
So that it's not... And I use sometimes personal examples, but hopefully they're usually not always relevant to the person in help to illustrate and so on.
And I will express sympathy and my own issues just so that they don't feel that they're alone in dealing with it.
So I try and, you know, this is the first time we've talked about this and I hope that you're experiencing that.
Like I'm trying to make it...
It's about you and your history.
It's certainly not about, you know, problems I've had with ambition or anything like that.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
So it would be very tough for you to do that, though, if you had all these unresolved feelings or things that you've avoided, right?
Right. I mean, I think it's a very useful thing to, especially if we want kids, although it's useful either way, to say, well, what should my life be?
Well, what would my child admire?
Right. I mean, I think that's, you know, like, I mean, just between you and I... You know, one of the things that really sustained me through the media stuff late last year was thinking about my unborn baby and thinking about, you know, when she's an adult, she's going to find out about this or, you know, I'll tell her about it.
And how is she going to feel about what it is that I did, you know, in the original call and in my subsequent interactions with the media?
And I'm, you know, I'm absolutely convinced that she's going to be enormously proud of what I did and say, wow, that really was tough.
But you really stood up for that young man and whatever, right?
And no one else had.
So I think she's really going to be proud of that when she learns about it as an adult.
Yeah, exactly.
And that was a powerful example for me to think of my seven-year-old kid.
Right. He's going to have your genes.
He's not going to have your history.
So he's going to be like you.
But with a better parent.
Right.
It's kind of up to me how much better.
Okay.
Well, it is, right?
It is. And, you know, I think not only does this help you to understand, I'm not saying to sympathize, but to understand with the choices that your parents made, you know, that your enthusiasm left them feeling depressed.
And anxious about what they had not achieved themselves, which is not about achievements in the world, right?
It's about happiness and enthusiasm for that which is so clearly and obviously good, right?
And it is clearly and obviously good that children are happy, creative, and enthusiastic.
You know, like it would take a grinch of nearly supernatural proportions to find that to be significantly problematic, right?
Right. Right.
In the same way that my daughter's boundless curiosity as an infant can be a little tiring, but it's so clearly a good thing that there would be no reasonable way to oppose it and make that believable to yourself, right?
Right.
So, yeah, so I think that that kind of life, right?
Living your life from the eyes of your future children and what they would be most happy and respectful about the choices that you were making, living the kind of life...
Because if you're going to have kids, your life is going to be an example to your children, whether you like it or not.
That's going to be impossible to avoid, right?
Right. And it's going to be an example to your wife and it's going to be an example to your friends.
I mean, that's all impossible, right?
It's impossible to avoid.
Absolutely. And you meet someone that you're really interested in, a potential girlfriend or whatever, right?
Is their life going to be something that they're going to respect and admire?
Which doesn't have anything to do particularly with external achievements, though it may.
If you're intelligent and ambitious and creative, as you obviously are, then it will have something to do with that simply because we just can't be very happy without exercising our faculties.
It's just the way that we are, right?
Like Isabella can't be very happy if she's, you know, she actually doesn't have to do smack during the day, right?
We could just carry her around and feed her.
Like the permanent hammock with the IV drip of chocolate, right?
I mean, that would be a pretty sweet life in some ways, right?
I mean, it's a pretty cool thing, right?
But that's not what she wants.
What she wants is to explore the world.
What she wants is to learn how to turn over and how to crawl and how to knock her blocks together and how to pick things up and put them down and switch them from hand to hand and learn how to talk.
And that's what she desperately wants.
And if we confined her from doing that, like if we swaddled her or bound her up really tightly, She'd be in a frenzy of discontent.
We simply are happiest when we are extending and exploring our own capacities and using ourselves to as great a potential as we can.
That's just the way it is, right?
To expect otherwise is like saying, well, I should be really happy and feel great when I have appendicitis, but that's not how we're wired.
We're wired to feel like crap when we have appendicitis, right?
Yeah. And we're wired to really feel happy when we are extending and exploring our own capacities and using ourselves to our greatest potential.
Not 24-7, right?
But you know what I mean, right?
That's the same reason we don't play the same video game over and over, like everyone's not just sitting there playing Pong still, right?
Right.
Right.
And you don't want to be that dad, right?
You don't want to be that dad that, you know, comes down like a lead balloon on the tiny flowers of his children's enthusiasms, right?
Or has to distance, you have to distance yourself from their enthusiasms because you've distanced yourself from your own.
Right, right. And I think that's what hit me so hard about that, that example, what it did.
Because if you, I mean, if you don't, and this is going to sound harsh, right?
And I certainly don't mean this on any personal level, but to me, if you don't do the work, you really shouldn't be a parent.
Right. Oh, yeah.
That's because you'll be kind of toxic, right?
And it's not the kids, you know, the kids obviously will probably be happy to be alive and so on, but it's like, if you don't do the work, then you're You're going to be kind of on the toxic side in particular areas as a parent, right?
If we don't work to surmount the past, if we don't work to deal with that which has made us emotionally shut off, shut down and unavailable to others, then it's a cruelty to have children, in my opinion.
Right, absolutely.
Definitely. That's why that example is so sad because current trajectory of 45-year-old me with a 7-year-old is an abusive parent or, you know, I think that probably is too strong, in my opinion.
I don't think that you would be abusive, but I think you would be confusing and unavailable, and there would be a great contradiction and a disorienting contradiction between your words and your life.
Like, you'd want to be enthusiastic for your kid, but you'd get really depressed, right?
Right. And you'd get depressed either way.
If your child's enthusiasm died as a result of your indifference and hostility, then you'd feel like shit for that, right?
Yeah. And if it didn't, then you'd feel panicky, anxious, and depressed because you'd realize that you could have broken through, but you didn't.
And your life became a waste as a result.
Right. So there's no good scenario if you don't work through this.
There's no good scenario by which you can be the dad that you want to be.
The dad that you didn't get, right?
Right. And, of course, if you have, and this is just one side of the equation, right?
Because if you have a wife who's enthusiastic about enthusiasm, she's never going to marry you if you have a girlfriend, right?
Right. Right. Right?
Because it's like, welcome to my dungeon of distracted electronic indifference, right?
And then you're at slow declining despair.
It's like, yay! I love enthusiasm, but I'm good with this too, right?
Right. And the total mindfuck of that whole thing is that that's exactly the kind of person that I'd want to be with, you know?
I mean, you know... Somebody who was enthusiastic about enthusiasm?
Yeah, and about life and all that stuff.
All that stuff that...
I mean, it's still there in me, but...
Yeah, all the stuff that you haven't as yet.
And I hope you understand.
I mean this with all sympathy and all respect for your dedication to working with this.
So, I mean, I really do respect your going to therapy and getting involved in philosophy and self-knowledge.
I mean, you will... Deal with this.
I feel confident of that.
It's going to be hard as hell, but you will deal with it, right?
But if you didn't, right, the current trajectory, you would find somebody who was enthusiastic and they might feel, you know, okay, well, he's maybe not achieved what he wants, but we'll be patient with that.
But after a while, if you didn't change, right, I mean, yeah, she would, you know, I'm sorry, like I, because she would recognize that she would have kids with a father who would be, you know, kind of a wet blanket around this sort of stuff and so on, right?
And if you chose a woman who was in the same way as you, right, fearful of taking risks and achievement and creativity and self-expression and so on, and ambition, then the child would be facing two parents with that same thing.
And then if you became really enthusiastic about the child's enthusiasm, that would be kind of weird for the kid because your own life would deny it.
And how would your wife react?
Because that would be the implicit bargain you would have had, which is that you don't do that, right?
Right, we stay small in this marriage.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
So, I mean, you would probably end up getting divorced, right?
Right. Yay, right.
Great. Right.
And that's the best case scenario, right?
I mean, that's assuming that you could even find a woman who would, you know, be happy to do all of that and would be that way, right?
Right, yeah, exactly.
And the reason that I'm saying all of this is, and I know, I know that you're easily intelligent enough to know all of this stuff, right?
I'm not telling you anything that I don't know.
It's just that our days can be, you know, drip, drip, drip, right?
Yes, I know just what you mean.
They just pass by, you know, like cars going by our window, right?
And we just sit there and we...
We play a video game and we have a chat with someone.
We go to work and we watch a DVD and we watch some TV and it's drip, drip, drip, right?
Yeah. And it's startling, though necessary, to look at how the drips are accumulating, right?
And where they're going and what the trend is and what's happening, right?
Right. And that's sort of what I try to annoyingly do with people, right?
Right. There's a line from the Pink Floyd song.
I think it's called Time.
Yeah. And it's a...
Let me just see if I can dig it up.
I think it's a good...
Digging away the moments that take up a dull day...
The moments that make up a dull day.
Fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way.
Digging around on a piece of ground in your hometown, waiting for someone or something to show you the way.
And then one day you find ten years have got behind you.
No one told you when to run.
You missed the starting gun.
And there is that drip, drip, drip, right?
Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines.
There is that. Yeah, it's a beautiful, beautiful set of lyrics and a fantastic album, of course, right?
But there is that problem of the drip, drip, drip.
See, because, and the funny thing is that this guy's singing this song, you know, when he wrote one of the most influential albums, some of the most influential albums in history ever.
Because he's conscious of that risk, he ends up acting in the moment, right?
Right. But your days are just going to fall away, you know, like bits of earth eroding from a cliff edge, right?
And then one day you just go down with them.
And the drip of the everyday inconsequentiality.
And there is so much distraction and inconsequentiality in our days, right?
That's natural. Nobody can live a life of 100% rich, deep, powerful meaning, right?
I mean, we all have to take crap and scratch ourselves, right?
I mean, there is that. We all have to go to the dentist, which is not rich, deep, meaningful, and spiritual.
So there is that aspect in life.
But what I'm really trying to point out to you is that you're still young enough, though, that I would say that there's not much time.
There's not much time for you because we do become set in our ways.
Your brain rewiring stopped a couple of years ago, right?
Your brain finally matured at the age of 24, 25 or so, right?
So you're two years or three years past that.
There's not much time, right?
We sort of sit there and say, okay, well, I'm 27.
Maybe I'll live to be 67 or 77 or 87.
So I've got, you know, 40, 50, 60 more years, right?
But that's not true, because the real question is, how much time do we have to actually change?
Right? Because you don't want to be 45 and having a kid.
Because that means you're going to have to start dating someone who's in her early to mid-30s, so it's going to be 10 or 15 years younger than you, which is going to be weird, right?
Yeah. Right?
So you've got to look backwards from when you have a kid and figure out, well, who do I need?
need to change, how quickly do I need to change in order to attract the kind of woman to be comfortable enough in who I am to change my life to the point where, you know, I can have a kid while still in my 30s, hopefully, right?
So you don't have much time at all, right?
And that's why I'm trying to inject some urgency in this final stage of our conversation.
Because if you spend two years changing now, you can be 29 or 30, right?
Right.
And then you're going to have to start finding a woman, which could take some time, You're going to have to go through some trial and error, perhaps.
And then you're going to have to get married.
And you don't want to have kids right away because you've got to get your marriage settled in first, right?
So suddenly you're 35, 36.
If you've got someone who's the same age, then it's pretty much now or never, right?
So what I'm saying is you don't have much time.
This is not in a year or two from now.
Because you don't have that time if you want kids.
And if you don't want kids, then what's going to happen is you're either going to end up with a woman who doesn't want kids.
And, I mean, maybe that's fine, too.
I don't know a lot of women who are really healthy who just don't want kids at all, right?
That's a controversial thing, which I'm not saying is proven.
It's just going to be my experience, right?
Or you're going to find a woman who already has kids, and you're going to have that really complicated situation of being a stepdad, right?
And then you can't be an authority figure to your children, to stepkids, if they're over a couple of years of age.
You're not my dad in their teenage years.
And that's all kinds of messy.
Plus then you have to deal with an ex-husband, who obviously is an ex-husband for some nasty reason.
And you have that second set of in-laws.
And it's really complicated and messy, right?
Right. So you don't have any time.
I really want to be annoying and impress that on you, right?
Right? It's now or never.
Because the never has already been how you've been living.
Like, it's never going to be. And to turn that around, to give you the window to be a father, to have a family, to have that kind of love, since that's what you say that you want, you simply don't, like, you've got to start working on it now, yesterday, last week, hard. Yeah.
Like, it's got to be the number one priority.
There's no other way that it can happen.
I can tell you that for sure.
Sure, that's not even a maybe.
Right.
And if you choose not to do it, that's fine too, in my opinion.
Just make it a choice.
Actually choose it, yeah.
Yeah, choose it. Just say, you know what, it's too much work.
I'm going to sink into my parents' quagmire and Live the rest of my days in inconsequentiality.
At least then you won't look back with regret.
I mean, you might, but it won't be the regret of not having made a choice.
If it just happened to you.
Right. Absolutely.
I mean, let's say, theoretically, you met someone at the barbecue that you really liked.
I mean, let's just go with pure theory here, right?
You want to be somebody who's going to be inspiring to that person, right?
Right. And inspiring to yourself.
And where that goes, nobody knows, but we know where it's going to go if you don't act, right?
Right, absolutely. Because you want to live the courage that you admire.
You want to live the values that you respect, right?
And it is about, right, it's not about overthrowing the state, which we can't do.
It's not about I mean, it's not about separating from corrupt people.
That's just a means to an end.
And I'm not suggesting anything because this is nothing we've even talked about.
But it is about living the values that we hold, right?
And courage and challenge and growth and confrontation of depression and indifference would be a value.
I assume it's a value that you hold since you're up here in the stratosphere of the podcast series, right?
Yeah, absolutely. Right.
So if there's the values you hold, again, it's simple to say...
Easy to have as a plan, hard to do, but we have to hold that as our North Star.
We have to hold that as our goal.
Live the values.
Because otherwise, what's the point of having them?
They just make our life difficult otherwise.
Right. Right.
Right. Right. I mean, I tell you, my selfish marketing ploy is to have you out there happy, engaged, successful, excited about your life, whatever that looks like, and say, oh, yeah, I'm into free-domain radio, rather than being some bitter low-level drone at the age of 40 saying, oh, yeah, I'm really into free-domain radio.
It's like, don't say that.
Don't say it. Whatever you do, I have to be your guilty, slutty secret, right?
Right.
And absolutely, that's also something that's come across my mind, too.
You know, that I would, you know, it's one small thing I can give back to be a good advertisement for free domain radio, or even to put my, you know, talents to use at that purpose, you know.
I would certainly welcome that opportunity.
If you want to do something creative, obviously this is a great venue.
You have an audience of tens of thousands.
This is a great venue to put it out there.
Anything that I can do to get behind people to help.
Don't do it alone. Don't try.
But yeah, people who don't put philosophy into practice, I want to be their porn.
I want to be the thing that they don't talk about.
Porn? No! Never heard of it.
What is that? Is that a kind of meat?
I just want to be under the mattress, shamefacedly guilty if someone finds it.
I don't want people to be advertising their involvement in philosophy if they're only talking and thinking about it.
Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely.
So anyway, okay, so again, in the interest of not taking up your whole day and everyone else's, is there anything else that you want to add?
And also, how was the conversation relative to your preferences and expectations?
This conversation far exceeded my expectations.
Thank you so much for re-steering it when you did.
Yeah, we weren't getting anywhere with the iPods.
I got that for sure, right?
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
And that's something I... Yeah, right, exactly.
No, you only have to bore me so much before I get annoyed and change the topic.
Your unconscious definitely figured that one out and good for that, right?
Certainly. But no, this has been extremely helpful for me.
And thanks for...
Helping me see perspective.
I mean, like I said, since the barbecue, it really put the world of interactions with people into perspective for me and set the bar really high for what I want to accept in my life as a close relationship in a very real way, in a very immediate way.
It was definitely an amazing experience.
The barbecue is all about raising expectations, raising the bar and accelerating the process by giving people a taste of the community that can be if we live the values.
Obviously, it's great fun and it's fun to sing karaoke and stuff.
I really did enjoy it.
I thought you were perfectly charming, very funny, very warm.
A great person to meet.
And hiding that from the world is robbing it of more than you probably know at the moment.
Thank you.
All right. Well, take care and keep me posted.
I'd love to know how things go in therapy.
And congratulations again for making that move.
I think that's hugely brave.
Absolutely. Thank you very much.
Take care, man. Thanks.
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