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June 11, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:16:52
1389 Tuning Your Resume for a Tough Market

Resume: http://www.lostlibertycafe.com/resume/nmckaskle2.doc

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Hello. Hello.
Alright, so we're going to try a bold experiment in reality podcasting.
Um, reality podcasting?
You, sir, are the guinea pig.
Now, I need you to strip down to commando.
Alright. So, um...
Talk about a bold reality.
That is bold.
That is bold. Okay, so yeah, I want you to tell me what you want to achieve out of this resume, and then we're going to actually look at the resume.
I haven't looked at it yet. Okay.
And then we're going to look at the resume and see if, you know, I think, for whatever it is that's worth, as a hero, whether I would get that.
Does that make sense? Yes.
It's not just a way for me to turn my lack of preparation into an advantage.
I want you to know that. No, I'm just kidding.
Right. Basically, I just want to improve it and go with what I'm already doing for now because I'm not ready for a career change right now.
I want to see if I can find a better job for what I'm doing, but that's a whole different subject.
I just want to improve my resume and get across and really sell myself.
Because where I'm coming from and what I can do are problems for me.
I can list every little piece of technology I've ever interacted with on there, and I've basically already done that.
And I don't know if that's a problem or not.
And also, my biggest issue is When I go to an interview or when I submit my resume or I have a phone interview or when I talk to a potential employer,
the biggest problem I have is selling my experience or selling myself to them as far as what I have done versus what I can do.
Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you, but I certainly do understand that, right?
Because people will look at your history and not look at the trajectory of what you're capable of, right?
Right, and I want to be able to convey that I can do a lot more than what's on here.
What's on here is my experience.
What I can do is a whole lot more than that.
Sorry, go ahead.
It's just that I'm in these, when you're in a large and corporate environment, you're pigeonholed every time.
You can't help but be pigeonholed into these departments or teams that focus on one specific area of the overall infrastructure.
And there's no way to, in these large environments, which are high paying also, because they're so successful and big, But the downside is that you get pigeonholed and there's a Citrix team and a VMware team and then you get somebody wanting both.
Experience with both technologies and you can't give them that because you're either one or the other.
They want all three.
They want experience in a large environment, experiments in two different technologies and you can't always give them that I'm going to interrupt you just before you completely put me to sleep.
Just because, you know, with all due respect, if you tell me about all the things that aren't possible, then there's not much to talk about, right?
Oh, right.
Right? Because you may not be right about that.
Oh, I might not.
I mean, you may be. You may be.
But I've worked in large companies.
I've worked at Unisys. I've worked at IBM. I've worked at some pretty...
Honk in big companies. I worked at a bank.
The managers come from somewhere.
Not everyone gets pigeonholed.
A lot of managers start out in the technical field.
Jack Welsh has his PhD in chemistry or something like that.
They will start out and they don't get pigeonholed.
Because they get something, I think, in my opinion, they get something very important, which I think, based on your history and your career path, you have yet to fully process.
I'm going to tell you what that is and then you can tell me if it makes any sense.
Okay. So you think that a resume and an interview is about selling yourself?
Yeah. It's not?
Right. I see where you're going.
It's a negotiation for...
It's like a business negotiation.
Yeah. It's, you know...
Like, if you're selling a car, it's not about selling the car.
It's about getting money, right?
Right. So, you're not trying to sell yourself.
You are putting yourself out there to see if there's a good fit between you and a potential employer.
And to be respectful of...
Like, managers need empathy.
And that doesn't mean that they've got to be emotional wizards, but they do have to have some understanding of the employee needs, the customer needs, their own manager's needs, the shareholders and stakeholders, and everybody who's got a vested interest in the company.
And the best way to demonstrate that, in my opinion, when you are doing an interview, is to figure out that you want to see if there's a fit, And you want to figure out if there's a fit very quickly, because management is all about being decisive but accurate.
And you want to see if there's a fit as good as possible, right?
So if you have the idea, and I mean, I understand this.
I'm just trying to give you another way of looking at it.
But if you have the idea that I have to get a job, you have a job, and now I have to convince you to give it to me, then you will forever be stuck being pigeonholed for your specific skills.
Yeah, I can follow that.
I can follow where that goes.
Okay, take it away. So because I'm trying to sell what they want, They may give me what I want, but that's all I get.
Yeah, I mean, basically you're selling yourself like someone would sell a computer.
The computer can do this, right?
Right. Do I need something to do that?
Well, yes, then I will buy this computer.
And so you're selling yourself like a piece of technical equipment or a car or, you know, this does X, right?
Do I need X? If so, yes.
If not, no, right?
Right. And that's fine.
I mean, there's nothing wrong with that.
But then there's no real advice that I can give you on the resume because you just look into, as I talked about with James, I had a year, a year and a half ago.
What you're doing is you're just basically saying, here's my silhouette, right?
Here's my cardboard cutout.
Does it fit in the silhouette of the guy you want?
And if yes, then we'll talk.
And if no, right, it's just a Boolean operation, right?
Right. I need a guy with PHP and SQL Server and Apache.
Do you have these things?
Yes, then we'll talk further.
No, blah, blah, blah, right?
Right. And so if it's a punch card resume you're looking for, then, I mean, we could probably have a look at it and tweak it a little bit.
But that's why I kind of asked what it is that you want to...
Yeah, it's probably a punch card resume that I already have.
Right, and I bet you...
That's the way I've ended up.
And so what happens with a punch card resume is, tell me if this sounds familiar, right?
So you get the call and the person says, we need A, B, C, D, right?
And you say, well, I've done W, X, Y, Z, but I've dabbled in A, I've had some exposure to B, I can sure as heck learn C because it's very similar to X. And what you're trying to do is convince them that you can learn what they want or you can do it quickly, right? Right.
And unless you get the person who needs exactly what you have, it's hard to feel needed, right?
Right. Exactly.
And that's stressful and it feels like you're not in a position of power because you're trying to convince someone.
You know, did you ever see the movie Tootsie?
Oh, yeah, I have.
It's just been... Probably since the 80s since I've seen it.
Right, right. Well, anyway, at the beginning, and I've only vaguely remembered this, I saw it again in the 80s, but I just remember there was a funny scene with Dustin Hoffman.
He's going for acting jobs, Dustin Hoffman.
And, you know, we need somebody taller.
I can be taller, right?
Right. We need somebody balder.
I can be balder. You know, we need somebody fatter.
I can be fatter, right?
And I can't remember how. It's something like at the end, you know, we need somebody good.
And then there was this long pause, right?
I can be good. Well, why wouldn't you do it in the audition, right?
Right. Yeah, I don't remember that part.
Right. So that's where you're at.
And that's the desperation, right, that people are looking for, right?
You're trying to fit into somebody else's preconceived idea of what it is they're looking for.
Because you're not selling yourself as a person or you're not interacting as a person, you are a skill set with a binary yes-no or percentage at least fit, right?
Right. And since I can tell you that it's very rare, it's almost never going to happen that you meet someone that you have a specific need as a manager and then you find someone who has that ability.
Never. So, I mean, at one point in my management career, I was looking for a guy who knew Access databases, SQL Server, Visual Basic, and had a strong knowledge of the U.S. environmental regulatory environment.
Come on, it's never going to happen.
Now, if that guy did come along, you know, I'd give him my left arm and a kidney, right?
Right. And so I had to figure out what was the most important to me.
Like, what could I... What can I train someone to do and what could I not, right?
And you can train an experienced IT guy on technology relatively, relatively easily.
There's a couple of weeks or a month or two of hand-holding, but you can't teach someone to either know or have an interest in the US environmental regulatory environment, right?
Exactly. So the interesting thing is, and I hired that guy who actually is now on the board of the company, which is great, right?
He stayed with the company the whole time, right?
Long after I left, he's still there.
And he learned the particular technologies we were using, and he learned the code-based environment and the architecture that I had built, and he did, you know, fantastic stuff, right?
And so he wasn't going to...
But in the interview, he talked about his knowledge of the U.S. regulatory and environmental blah, blah, blah, right?
And... He knew the environmental stuff, but didn't know the coding and all the other stuff.
He knew the business. Right.
Right? He knew the business.
And that's really hard to teach someone.
And he learned the technology.
And he didn't even seem that stressed about the technology.
And he was very smart, right?
But he was like, yeah, I mean, I've done some coding.
I've worked a little bit here and there, but...
We'll figure out what you need, right?
But what I really understand is your business.
Alright, this other woman we hired who ended up being the senior project manager, we hired her away from a competitor.
She'd never coded before in her life.
And, you know, we started her on coding, but she ended up much preferring project management, so that's where we put her.
But she knew the business, because she was a competitor, right?
She knew the business we were in.
- Okay.
- Right, so before an interview, it doesn't always work, right, but it's worth it.
Before the interview, a lot of people in the tech field will say, hey, I've got to figure out this technology so they'll do some research and read up on it and so on.
My suggestion would be read up on the industry.
Read up on the business that you're going into.
Yeah, the interview I have tomorrow is an industry I am familiar with, the oil and gas energy.
Yeah, absolutely. I eat Mexican too and you can bring all of that up.
But yeah, bring up your industry knowledge and ask them intelligent questions about the industry.
That would be my absolute strong suggestion.
Because if you understand the business that they're in, Most good managers will be more comfortable with you learning technology if you know the business.
Because you're going to be like, we need Perl scripting or something like that.
You can say, yeah, that's something I would definitely have to learn.
What I would say is that would be my eighth computer language.
After three, they become pretty easy to learn.
Good coding practices translate From, you know, from language to language, right?
All object-oriented, all, you know, build your classes effectively and so on.
So good coding practices will translate, right?
So I would say, and you're probably around even more than eight programming languages, you know, I mean, so people would say, well, there's this language, and I'd say, well, okay, so that would be my eighth programming language, and, you know, but the important thing is that I know how to code effectively, and I know how to document Effectively.
And I know how to communicate about my code effectively.
And I know how to train people on my code effectively.
And that, you know, I would submit that that's more important than knowing a particular syntax.
Which is easy to learn anyway, right?
I can totally understand that.
And the problem with where I've been...
I haven't been too career focused lately.
I'm working on myself and stuff like that.
And this is the next thing.
In my past two positions, I've gained some, lost a lot because of the siloing of the departments.
I don't get the opportunities to learn new things there.
So what I do know What I did know before gets forgotten and what I do know now gets learned.
Because of this, I feel like I'm having to catch up or something.
Like I'm having to...
Like I'm deficient in some way.
Everyone in IT feels that.
Everyone in IT feels that all the time, right?
Right. It's like a doctor who has to constantly read the journals in order to stay, you know, on top of the game.
Yeah, learn new procedures, and absolutely, absolutely.
It is a brutal hamster wheel that's constantly accelerating, right?
Right. And that's why, I mean, sorry, and that's why trying to find someone with the exact technical skills that you need is...
Okay, let me put it to you this way.
If... The person who's hiring you is looking for someone with your level of experience, but is only looking for technical skills, I would panhandle before I took that job.
Because they're retarded.
No, because it would be a shitty work environment with an insecure and idiot manager.
Right, so if I've got 13 years behind me and they're looking for a specific technology experience, Yeah, if they say, hey, he's been in IT for 13 years, the only thing I care about is if he types correctly.
Right. That's stupid.
Because what they're looking for is an idiot.
What they're looking for is somebody who just wants to do the same thing over and over again without any ambition.
And those kinds of people who don't have any ambition, they won't have the new technology.
They're looking for someone who doesn't exist.
Because someone who's up on the new technology, is driven, is ambitious, thinks ahead, has managerial potential, and so they're not going to spend 13 years typing.
No. And if somebody thinks they can get someone with 13 years experience at all the latest technology that they want, who's not ambitious, they're looking for somebody who doesn't exist, and therefore you don't want to work for them, right?
Right. Right, I'd just be picking another bad manager.
Yeah, just be another bad fit, right?
Right.
And I – they throw out these – I don't know if I should be looking for this in the interview or in the posting.
Because they post and they say, well, we need somebody with this experience and submit your resume and we'll interview.
Maybe I should be waiting until the interview to decide if these guys are looking for For just a guy that has no ambition and isn't going anywhere or they're looking for...
No, you can figure that out before the interview, right?
How? Well, as I said, if they're looking for somebody with 10 years of IT experience and they're only looking for technical skills, that would be a clue.
It may not be for certain and you can certainly trust your gut.
I would always go for jobs in an industry that you know about.
Right. Because then what you can do is you can talk to the guy about the industry.
Now, if he's a guy who's hiring, sorry, man or woman, if he's a person who's hiring, who's in the oil and gas industry, but he knows nothing about the oil and gas industry, then you probably don't want to work for him.
Right. And I've also been in the hospital industry, so I've had two industries behind me.
And that explains why I did so well at the last hospital interview, despite the HR troubles.
That explains why I did so well and why they liked me so much because I knew the hospitals, I knew what doctors were like, I knew some of the systems even that they are most commonly used.
So basically you're going for a job as a limo driver saying, not only can I drive, Right.
because if you don't want someone who understands the environment, the business environment that you're in, then what you want is someone that you can program the same way that you program a computer, and that's going to be soul-destroying.
Whereas if you know the industry, and you can talk about the industry, then they will understand, their manager, the hiring manager, will understand that you get, that technology has a purpose, which is to support and enhance the acquisition of business value within that environment.
that IT is a tool, not an end in itself, and the tool is to further the economic growth of the company, right?
Exactly.
Now, there are lots of IT people who will never get that, right?
Those bearded road apples who just love tweaking Unix boxes on their laps, right?
Yeah, and they spend all day at work just for the fun of playing with toys.
And to them, business considerations, budgets and constraints and return on investment and project plans, they're vaguely offensive, you know?
Like asking Michelangelo how much his paints cost.
What do you mean? I'm an artist!
And those people are pretty insufferable, right?
Well, I've been there in the past, and I've kind of outgrown that, I think.
The initial zeal for computers that I had isn't so much there anymore.
I mean, I had a guy like this and we had a reporting engine that didn't work under NT4 and so I asked him to look into another reporting engine and what he did was he started writing his own which took the forms from the screen and attempted to reproduce them by writing rich text formatting directly to the hard drive and then launching it as an RTF file and whatever would handle it usually a word processor And as you can imagine,
reproducing pixel-based GUI interfaces in big, chunky, ugly RTF was, you know, constant problems.
One form would look great and then the next one would look like crap and, you know, all that kind of stuff, right?
Right. And he wouldn't stop.
He just wouldn't stop.
I'm like, dude, seriously, you know, because he was like, oh, I can get it done in a week, right?
And it's going to save his ex and so on, right?
And I was busy and foolish and I gave him a week and then almost done another week, right?
And eventually it was like almost two months and it's like, you know, I needed that reporting engine last month, right?
So just drop this shit and get me Crystal, right?
So what he wanted was to figure this problem out of RTF reporting because it was an interesting technical challenge.
And it was an interesting technical challenge.
It just... It just cost us contract, right?
And we weren't there to subsidize his code curiosity, right?
Right. Yeah, I know that kind of the sort of house thing.
At all costs, I've got to solve this problem.
It's bugging me.
It's keeping me awake. I base the guy Terry in The God of Atheists a lot on this guy.
Because there's that conversation where it's like, well, you know, if they use the database builder and they do this and they do this and they do this and then it's a text field but they think it's a date field, then there's a problem.
And, you know, the business guy is like, well, how often is that going to happen?
Yeah, I think I was that guy.
Like, my hospital job, they wanted a quality assurance tool and they had me design it in PHP and I was just learning PHP at the time and decided to take it on and And there were all these problems with it, and they needed this tool a lot sooner than later.
So they finally ended up just outsourcing it to some place.
But while it gave me time to learn a lot, I wouldn't let go of it.
It was just like I wanted it to work because, you know, what I dreamed of it being so cool, I could never get it to do what I wanted it to do.
Right, but you always feel like you're close.
I mean, that's why I don't really edit the podcast very much, because I did that, and it became a hole with no bottom, right?
So I would do a 45-minute podcast, and then I would spend three hours editing out the errs and the ums and the this and that, right?
And you know, and pause, and you know, scratch, scratch, whatever, right?
Pick my nose, you know, I mean, because you can hear that shit, I'm telling you.
And I just had to stop because I looked at the return on investment for what I was doing.
Certainly nobody really seemed to notice.
A few people, you know, mentioned, oh, they seem cleaner or whatever.
But I just, you know, or, you know, removing the background noises and tweaking the audio just so and all that kind of shit, right?
Because for me it was like, okay, well, fuck that.
At some point bandwidth is going to become cheaper and I'll just make the files bigger and higher resolution, you know?
If we wanted to listen to a really great sound, if it was the sound that was important, then we'd pick a studio.
You'd pick FM radio or a studio, right?
It's not like they recorded Bohemian Rhapsody in the back of a moving van, right?
This is a live show recorded with someone's 8-track in 1970.
That's the sound quality I was aiming for.
Because what was my goal?
My goal was not to make pristine quality audio.
My goal was to get people fired up and engaged in philosophy.
And I also wanted to show the breadth of what I was interested in and the breadth to which principles could be applied to a variety of circumstances.
So for me, that meant quality of content over quality of presentation.
And it worked, right?
So... That aspect, you know, what is my goal?
And this is sort of related to the recent thing on perfectionism, right?
My goal, it's easy to make the goal, the thing itself, higher quality audio, right?
But that was not my goal.
My goal was not to produce high quality audio, right?
And the reason I'm talking about that...
Then you take away from the content and...
I'm sorry? Then you take all the time away that you could otherwise spend on content and ideas and...
Yeah, and starting the website and writing articles, you know...
And all that, right? So the purpose was not to produce high-quality audio.
And also, you know, there's something important in that as well, just by the by, it's just a way of looking at it, is that if people would stop listening to high-quality philosophy because the audio fidelity was not up to their pristine standards, then they probably shouldn't be listening to high-quality philosophy in the first place because they don't do it, you know? Right. Well, I would change my life for the better.
I would, you know, learn all about ethics and virtue and...
But there's a whirring noise in the background.
Yeah, but you know, sometimes he coughs and that's it.
I'm throwing it all out, right?
It's like, you know, that's probably a very good idea, right?
You don't want to do that, right?
So driving those kinds of nitpicky listeners was as important as drawing in those who were like, man, it sounds like shit, but the content is great, right?
Those are the people I actually wanted to talk to, right?
Because they get the point, right?
Right, and it kind of acts as a filter, all those urns.
It filters out all the people that are like that, which is funny.
They're the ones that want to apply a filter to your podcast.
Right, right. And who's to say that the urs and the ums and the you knows did not help people by having pauses to absorb what I was saying?
Yeah, mitigation, I think, is combed.
Yeah, I mean, because I remember putting out a podcast where I edited that all out, and it just sounded like I was doing it all in one breath, and I found it completely exhausting to listen to.
So anyway, what I'm saying is that when you're looking at getting a job, I think it's really important to negotiate yourself as someone who understands the purpose of technology rather than the content alone.
And to do that, you have to know the business, right?
Right. That actually is kind of...
I mean, that's not only...
I mean, that's just...
I have to try it because I'm...
It makes more sense to me than trying to get study up on who knows what question they're going to ask.
And so I have to study up on everything and spend hours and hours trying to remember every possible detail of every little question.
What's the port number for...
For session reliability, you know, that stuff.
And what I could do is the ease of just looking at their website, learning more about what they do specifically in that industry, trying to recall the things that I remember from working in that field.
And that saves a whole lot of time and effort and breath.
Oh, yeah, it really does.
It really does. You can be honest about that in the interview, and you can say, you know, I just want to understand.
Are you looking for someone who does the right typing, you know, to put it in a funny way, to types correctly?
Or are you looking for somebody who understands the business and has experience in technology?
Right? Are you looking for, you know, a...
A coder with those little horse blinders on, you know, stop.
Just look at the screen. Do not look away from the screen, right?
Are you looking for that kind of person who, you know, the business is unimportant?
Or are you looking for someone who understands the business and has a deep appreciation of how to use technology to achieve business goals?
Now, if they say, well, we're looking for the horse blinder, idiot, autistic coder guy, then you'd be like, I'm an excellent driver.
Came out sucks. I've seen Rain Man.
And take the job. No, but I mean, you figure out what they're looking for.
If they're looking for someone who knows the business, they say, well, look, I mean, I've worked in this business in technology for a long time.
I really do understand how the technology is supposed to drive the business needs.
Now, your specific technological environment, yes, I will have to get up to speed on that, but that, I can guarantee you that I could learn, because it'll be like the 51st technology that I learn, but what you do get is the full package of knowing the business.
That's a great pitch.
And then you're looking to see if there's a fit, because you're basically saying, I'm not the idiot autistic coder guy, right?
I have an appreciation of the business environment.
And look, all the economics and entrepreneurial and management podcasts you've listened to here alone would give you quite an edge on your average Unix road apple dude, right?
Quite true. Huh.
And this is even more important, the tougher the economic environment.
It is even more important to negotiate from the standpoint of finding a good fit when the economic environment sucks.
Because we always have this belief that because the economic environment is tough, I need to be more needy when it comes to finding a good job, right?
I need to take whatever I can get.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the more desperate, the better, right?
But the reality is...
If there are 500 guys lighting up for the job and they've all got dark hair, you want to be the blonde guy, right?
Just because you'll be remembered, right?
And so in a situation where more and more people are becoming more and more desperate to try and find work, you want to be the guy who's got that bizarre Barack Obama invisible massage confidence, right?
Because then people are like, either he's really fucking good or he's completely mental.
Either way, I want to see him again.
You're right. You know, no fear, right?
I mean, yeah, the economics out there is tough.
And I say this from experience, right?
Because I used to be, and I'm better at it now, like I used to be like, oh my god, I haven't had a donation in a week.
Everybody hates my podcast.
What was that one I did just before everyone stopped donating?
That must have, you know...
You know that one where I strangled the kitten?
I mean, is that the one?
It's so hard to tell, right?
What was it specifically? Maybe it was because I said, ah, too many times.
Right, right. Maybe I got just, I got two Mickey Mouse on Madonna, Helium, Squeaky, and nobody wants to listen anymore because I got really excited or something, right?
And I used to be like that, right?
And, you know, so when the donations would go down, I'm like, oh, right.
And now, it's like, oh, fuck it.
You know, it's random, right?
Yeah, I've noticed that with my website.
It's nothing is consistent about how many people hit it.
And when and what day?
It's just, was it when I wrote this article?
Was this why? And then I go, look, and then, you know, no.
Right. And of course, I'm not doing this to make money.
I'm glad that I make some money, but I'm not doing this.
I'm doing this to connect and to inspire and to, you know, hopefully educate some and to learn.
I've learned a huge amount from you all, right?
So if I'm doing that, I can't aim at the money.
I can aim at that, and if it works, the money hopefully will come in or whatever, right?
But that's the purpose, right?
Because I don't have any control over the donations, but I do have control.
And you don't have any control over who's going to hire you, right?
You can't control that. But you can control on attempting to connect with a human being during the interview process and not be that sweaty person.
Guy who's, you know, hire me or I'm going to have to start eating my feet, right?
Because if you're nervous and needy during an interview, then the only person who's going to hire you is somebody who wants to bully you.
Right, and pigeonhole me.
Yeah, I think the bullying is of more concern myself.
But yes, and pigeonhole you or whatever, right?
Whereas if you're confident and curious about whether it's a good fit, then the person who's going to hire you is going to be somebody who relishes and appreciates those characteristics.
In other words, he's going to be hopefully a mature and relatively wise human being.
But if you're sort of needy and desperate, the only thing worse than not being hired is being hired, right?
And again, I'm not saying you are needy and desperate.
I'm just saying that particularly in this environment, you want to have A standout level of curiosity about the fit.
Because that's going to seem confident.
And it's going to seem respectful of the other person too, right?
Because when you're like, oh, I could learn that, or I could do this, or I've done something similar, it's kind of disrespectful because people feel, and I've certainly been on the receiving end of that so many times, it feels like the employee, the potential, sorry, the interviewee is not trying to figure out whether he has a Value to give to me.
He's trying to convince me that he already has value, and sometimes people would do that before I'd even finished explaining the business we were in.
And that's just plain annoying.
I get three sentences into describing our business, and they'd be like, oh yeah, environmental.
I have a yard, and I code in the yard, so hire me, because I code.
And it's like, you don't even know if you can add value to me and you're telling me to hire you?
I mean, that's kind of disrespectful, right?
So up front, it's me of finding out more about what they need.
Yeah, finding more and whether it would be of interest to you.
Right. Rather than starting with their questioning me.
I don't know what kind of control I have over any given interview.
Well, you have no control over the interview, right?
Huh? You have no control over the interview because the interview is a relationship.
You have control over what you do and you have control over the degree to which you prepare.
Right. Because I can't control...
Well, never mind.
I'm probably making a...
Well, you can't control whether somebody's going to like you.
You can't control whether they're going to find your skills interesting or valuable.
You can't control whether they're going to believe you when you say you can learn something.
You can't control any of that, right?
Right. And so, just looking at your resume, we'll just touch on this briefly because, I mean, I think I've given you some good stuff.
I hope I've given you some reasonable stuff to work with.
But... Sorry, one sec.
But just looking at your resume, this is just the first one that you sent me?
Yeah. Well, I can't see...
Well, first of all, it's too long.
I mean, six pages, right?
Seven pages. Sweet mother of all.
Yeah, it includes my entire work history, which probably is a bit much.
Supported by a phone in 1996.
Yeah, I would hack that baby down to two pages.
But what I would say is that...
There's nothing in here about the value that you've created.
Like, not one thing that I can see.
Right? So, yes, you've done, you know, eight years of this and four years of that and three years of this and so on, right?
But a business guy is going to want to see, I saved the company this amount of money, I reduced costs or reduced time or reduced downtime by this amount, which translated to that or whatever, right?
And of course, you may not have these exact numbers, but you can give You can give some useful guesses, right?
Like, it's all about, here's the technology I know.
There's nothing about, and here's the business value that that created.
Does that make any sense?
Yeah, it makes sense.
But not... No, it makes sense.
It's not the problem.
The problem is that...
I just don't...
I wouldn't even know where to begin with that.
That sounds so daunting and...
Well, and that's...
But see, that's important, right?
It's important that you don't know how to begin with that because what that tells me...
You know, because that would be a question I would ask, right, if I were interviewing you.
If I saw this resume and I was interested in you, and of course I don't know anything about your business knowledge here.
Right. Because it's all about, you know, I bred yaks on this server farm or something, right?
It's nothing to do with business knowledge.
Like I don't even know what industries you've worked in until page six, right?
Right. And, you know, after a while I get it.
You know, you learn technology and you're smart and all that kind of stuff, right?
But on page seven, I find out that you're in the oil and gas industry, right?
I mean, depending on where you want to go and what you want to do, I would start with industry-specific knowledge.
So rather than give work or job history on a resume, cut all that out and start with...
I should probably just start blank, but...
Well, it depends what you're looking for.
If you're looking to get pigeonholed and to be a typist, then what you've got is okay.
But you don't really have any control then, because you're either going to fit or you're not, right?
Right. But if you want something which is going to engage the FDR side of your brain, or the philosophy part of your brain, or the economics part, or the problem-solving part that's more human-based, Then I wouldn't lead off with six pages of technical descriptions of your specific skills with no reference to any business values.
Because it's just going to get you a job as a glorified typist, right?
Right. I don't want to continue in that direction.
I haven't invested all this self-work to be a glorified typist.
I'm looking to expand every area of my life.
Yeah, I think that's a good idea.
And so what I would suggest is if I were to ask you the question, which I would, and I would ask this question of anyone who had more than a few years experience, I would say, well, why did you do this?
Why did I do what? Sorry.
So I'll just, you know, I'll pick something at random, right?
Eight years racking, building out, and configuring HP servers, right?
On what basis did you make the decisions to rack and build out, and how did you, like, on what basis did you make those decisions to do those things?
Well, I didn't make those decisions.
Someone said rack these servers, and I wouldn't rack them.
Right, okay, and I'd say, okay, fair enough.
So, you did Citrix Zen App 5.
Did you choose that, or was that the environment you were in?
Did you ever recommend an upgrade?
Did you ever recommend hardware changes?
Did you ever, or would you basically just, you know, we need this, and you went and did it?
Exactly. We need this, and I went and did it.
Right. Right.
And I would pretty much figure out that you were pretty inert when it came to business decisions, right?
Right. I'm a gopher boy.
Well, no, no. I don't want to diminish it.
It's not bad, and it's not negative, right?
But it certainly is not...
Like, you didn't know why you were doing what you were doing, right?
And because of that, you weren't able to be proactive in those decisions, right?
Right. Right.
Wow, these... Yeah, these questions are...
And you don't, sorry, you don't have to answer them at all.
No, I know. I know I don't need to answer them right now, but...
No, sorry, you don't need to answer them at all.
Like, you don't, you may say, I don't give a shit why I'm racking this server.
I don't give a shit why I'm doing Citrix rather than some other thing, right?
But in which case, that's what you're going to do in IT, is you're going to be a highly skilled typist.
Right. It's just, again, it's not negative that you don't know, right?
But if you don't know, then you won't grow in terms of management and business stuff, right?
So you say here, eight years coordinating and leading technical projects involving one or more people.
So, one or more is a bit vague.
I would, you know, just an average of, you know, five people or whatever, right?
And then I would say, okay, well, who initiated these technical projects?
And did you have a return on investment?
And did you have a project plan that had those kind of measurable financial or efficiency goals?
And you would say...
That would have been MD Anderson.
So, yes, to some degree, I did have...
I was not the project manager.
I was the project technical lead, meaning I was the guy that...
That worked with the project manager on the technical aspects that she was not familiar with.
I was the one that implemented things and troubleshooted the problems that came up and worked with vendors.
Right, and so then I would ask you and I would say, well, did you have, you know, Business value presentations for the technology that you were using, or did you recommend different technologies for business reasons?
I would try and dig in and try and find out why you made the decisions that you made about the technology that was being used.
And I would say I didn't make the decisions.
All right. I tested the products, gave the results, and somebody else made decisions.
But how did you know which products?
To test. And usually it ended up being based on money, which I was not involved in.
How did I know which products?
That I did have some decision making control over.
I was given a test to go find a specific piece of technology or software or both.
And you would look at total cost of ownership.
You would look at that kind of stuff, right?
Like how much is it to buy?
How much is it to support? How many people does it need?
You would make those calls, right?
Yeah, I would spec out the price and the hardware and what would be required to spend.
Would you estimate the number of person hours per month or per year that it would take to support it?
I think I did that once.
But this is what I would think about in terms of your career.
Why did I do the things that I did?
And if you Have no clue.
And see, as I'm asking, I'm finding that you actually do have an understanding of it to some degree, right?
Because you're quick to say no, right?
A very small amount of experience in that.
No, but it's something, right?
Yeah. It's something, right?
So it's funny because with technology, we're always quick to say, yes, I can figure that out, right?
Yeah. But with some of the business stuff, we're always like, no, no, never knew it, never learned it, right?
Huh. It's... I can understand it completely because, you know, technology costs money, people cost man hours, there's so many man hours required to put the technology together, and there's so much money in the end that it ends up costing, and there's so much that you want, and you're gonna have to get a return, and you're gonna have to actually make more than that In the end, and you're going to have to somehow prove that it makes more money in the end.
I get and understand that, but...
That was a long sentence to drop it on the butt.
I don't know what the butt...
Right, okay. But you understand that that's the purpose of IT, right?
It's like, you know, just to dip into my own history, right?
So I did a bunch of transitions through technology, right?
So from 16-bit to 32-bit, from access to SQL Server and Oracle, from access as a front-end to Visual Basic, and then to ASP 1.0, and all this and that, right?
And it's tricky, right?
Because... If you go too soon, you're screwed.
Because people don't want it yet.
They don't even know, like, to go to the web, right?
From Windows to the web.
If you go too soon, you're screwed.
Because nobody wants it.
It's really experimental. And the programming tools that are available for you to use are rudimentary, if available at all.
Right? So it's brutally expensive.
It's very time consuming.
It's technologically risky.
It's bleeding edge. And nobody wants to buy it.
And when you... Look at IT companies.
IT managers, a big company, say you want to shuffle all of this new ASP stuff in there, you know, like, you know, pull the other one, right?
Security is a concern, all this kind of shit, right?
So if you go too soon, you're screwed.
And if you go too late, obviously you're screwed, right?
Because your total cost of ownership remains high because it's a thick client rather than a thin client and your competitors are underbidding.
It can charge Can either charge more or whatever, right?
So if you go too late, so there's a delicate point in the middle where it's like, ready, ready, go!
Right? Not yet.
You know, don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes, right?
It's like every cliched submarine movie or whatever you've ever seen.
Steady, steady. Right.
I feel a little silly asking this question.
I don't fully understand the term total cost of ownership.
Oh, sorry. Total cost of ownership is...
You buy a computer, right?
So you say, someone says, I want to buy a computer, and you say, okay, your computer is $1,000.
So mentally, they say $1,000, right?
But $1,000 is not much, right?
Because what you get, you get Windows, and, you know, right.
So you actually need a copy of Office, probably.
You'll need an antivirus program.
You'll also need internet access, right?
You'll also need a desk.
You'll need an office chair.
So what I was describing earlier, the office space, the salaries of the people involved, how many man hours, all that together is the total cost of ownership.
Yeah, so something can be a lot cheaper up front.
It's like, hey, this printer is only $50, whereas the other printer is $100.
So you say, hey, it's $50 less.
But then if you look at the printer cartridges, Which are $20 as opposed to $10, and you're going to use five of them a year or whatever, right?
Then the total cost of ownership becomes...
It's less valuable, right?
Because it's how much you spend in the long run, right?
Right. All right, Greg asks...
This kind of crossed my mind, too, and this is why I'm asking.
And I think I know the answer is...
Well, if it pisses them off, then you're working for the wrong people.
But in a business, like, how do you contribute to the decision-making without pissing off the managers?
Well, sorry, you don't contribute to the decision-making until you have the information, right?
Right. Right, so when somebody says, you know, we need a way to access, we need a VPN, right?
Let's just make something up, what do I know, right?
But we need a VPN, you say, why?
Step me through the business reasons.
So I have a sense of my budget.
What money are we losing by not having a VPN? And so if they work it out and they say, we're only losing 50 bucks a month by not having a VPN, then you can say, I guarantee you that there's no VPN that's only going to cost you 50 bucks a month, and so it's going to be net negative.
Now, there may be other reasons to do it, but it's not cash flow positive, right?
So all you're doing is, what business problem am I trying to solve?
And what are the financial parameters that this problem is supposed to be solving, right?
And if they say, well, why do you need to know?
I'm sorry? If the servers, or if any of these servers go down, like at night, and it costs a million dollars, then definitely you want a VPN so the support guys can log in from their bedrooms and fix it.
Right, right. And you may also say, well, no, they'd say those guys don't sleep anyway.
And if people say, well, why do you want to know that?
You'd say, well, because I like to know if I've succeeded or failed.
Right? You can't manage what you can't measure, right?
So if I am supposed to get a VPN that costs less than $50 a month, I can guarantee you I'm going to fail.
And I'll tell you that up front, that there's no way it's going to happen.
Now, there still may be other reasons to do it.
There may be soft reasons to do it.
Like we've got a bunch of people who like working from home and they'll quit.
And that's going to be our cost.
And the risk of that, you know, if 20% of them cost and it costs $100,000 to replace each of them, then whatever, right?
You've got some money that you're supposed to prevent, right?
The last half. And so the reason that you ask those questions is like, I need to know if I'm going to succeed or fail.
Because if not having a VPN is costing us $10,000 a month, and I can bring a VPN in for $5,000 a month, then I've just made the company $5,000, right?
Right. Because I like to know if I'm doing a good job or not.
I like to know if I've actually solved the problem, rather than just throwing technology at stuff and it just vanishes, right?
Right? This is why business people hated Vista.
Because what was the return on investment?
You know, there was no killer app in Vista.
It screwed up everybody's peripherals.
It had really slow network copy speeds.
And so people went in and it's like, well, where's our return?
And this is why they shook Microsoft by the neck.
And didn't do it, a lot of them, because it's like, well, where's the return on investment here?
We paid for the operating system.
We paid for hardware upgrades.
We paid for people to install it.
We did training. We did this, that, and the other.
It cost us a fortune. And what did we get that we didn't have already?
Ooh, the aero interface, right?
Yeah. Yeah, it's a prettier graphics.
Nicer looking start button.
Yeah, I still haven't upgraded.
But so, yeah, knowing these kinds of things, if that's going to...
I don't know how to integrate this kind of, you know, even just what I've learned from FDR and what I've learned in my experience from my business and how I compressed 13 years of experience into two pages, how I still convey that I have technical knowledge and specific technologies while still at the same time.
I took some of the advice that you've given in other podcasts on the resumes.
I changed just lists of tasks that I did into accomplishments, kind of, like little blurbs about what I did.
Don't have a resume for everything, right?
Because that's also...
No one's going to read through seven pages.
No way. So if you have someone who's, I don't know, They've never used Novell, then take Novell out of your resume.
If you have a company that has no interest in Citrix, take the Citrix stuff out or at least put it in an appendix or at least put it, you know, whatever, right?
More details available, whatever.
But tailor your resume to, because otherwise you're asking him to do the filtering for you.
And as a hiring manager, when you get a hundred resumes, I pick up seven pages.
All that tells me is the guy hasn't done any research about the position and he's just firing his resume off.
To whoever has a job that might conceivably fit.
And I find that annoying. Huh.
Right? Just have a bunch of resumes, right?
And if it's a company with three people and you've got a lot of experience with server farms, take that shit off, right?
Because they're not going to have a server farm, right?
Right. If it's GoDaddy, leave it in, right?
Right. But you do a little bit, right?
I'm not taking, you know, just hack some stuff out or hack out the obvious stuff and put the stuff that may or may not be relevant right at the bottom, like additional skills or whatever, right?
So if I've got like 13 years, I don't need to prove it by putting every year and every little thing I did.
No, that's, you know what that's like?
That's like if you go on a date and the person tells you their life story and you don't get a chance to say anything.
It's like, that's kind of off-putting, right?
Yeah. Okay.
I wasn't aware of how managers perceive my resume.
It looks a little insecure, because it's like, I've done everything, right?
It's like, what?
I don't need you to do everything.
I need you to do this, and you haven't even filtered your resume to make it easier for me.
Huh. Wow, I just...
I've been a little, let's see, word for it to...
Verbose?
That's one word. I guess, no, in terms of not considering how the manager might perceive things.
Resume narcissistic?
No, no, it's not narcissistic.
I mean, I think that you genuinely, you've got great stuff in your resume and you want to show people that you've done great work.
And I wouldn't say that, you know, it's not a self-attack scenario.
What I am saying though, and again, please understand, these are just my experiences as a manager and as a hiring guy, right?
But I must have interviewed, I must have read like 2,000 resumes and interviewed like 200 people over my career, probably more, right?
So this is, you know, but I'm all in small business environments and I don't really care that much about, I mean, to some degree, the skill set should somewhat match, but, so this is just all my opinions, but I certainly would, in a tight economic environment, you want to not You don't want to just fill the shotgun full of your experience and fire it hoping you'll hit something?
Yeah, that's basically it.
Pray and spray or whatever you call it.
Yeah, it's a spray and pray.
That's what you do. It's what bad salespeople do.
They'll just show you every single feature of every single car as opposed to asking five questions about what it is you're looking for, right?
That way they'll tell you how cool the sports car is to the guy with 12 kids, right?
And they'll talk about how cool the minivan is to the young guy with no kids, right?
Right. And you can put a little thing at the top of the resume that says, I've edited my resume with skills, I believe, particular to this position.
I have additional skills which we can talk about if you're interested.
Oh. Well, that's the solution.
And it says, look, I filtered a little here, right?
Right. So that way you can get a full online seven-page detailed version on...
Well, put it on your website, right?
And say, if you want to look at the full shebang, here's the link, right?
It's only a click away, right?
The full Nathan experience, the extravaganza, the multimedia festival is only a click away.
My entire life story, right?
Huh. This is almost kind of a, even though it feels daunting in terms of restructuring my resume, cutting it down is the easy part.
What feels daunting to me is trying to convey my knowledge of whatever field, like I have hospitals and I have The oil and gas industry.
That basically sums up my entire career, other than HP, of course.
1997, you say that you have a lot of experience with configuring DOS modems.
For the love of all this fucking holy man, what is that in your resume for?
Are you expecting, like, if time travel were to hit me tomorrow, I need to be prepared.
DOS, Windows 95, or something like that.
Configure DOS and Windows workstations and laptops.
Install clients and software.
for installed and configured network adapters and modems.
Filter, filter, filter, baby.
If anybody wants you to manage DOS modems, run.
Exactly. It's a cult.
It's a cult, right.
I'm looking for your experience here with Atari, Commodore 64, and pets.
But anyway, sorry, go on. Because I'd hire you if you had that, right?
PC, what was it?
What was that? Word Perfect for Dr.
Doss, or something like that.
Did you leave that out? Because that could make all the difference.
Hey, you know, was somebody with that...
They may be paying big bucks for somebody that'll still come back and support all that old crap.
Right, right. Oh, yeah.
And you've documented, you see here, you did the Apple stuff.
Yeah. I was asked to learn everything about Apple servers and clients, became certified research, test, implement, and support.
A distribution application for all 4,000 Apple Macintosh clients.
You say, I succeeded in completing this project from start to finish within one year.
That's a bit redundant when you complete a project that usually is from start to finish.
Like, I completed the book from the first page to the last.
Anyway, followed by documentation of the process, and that's great.
Documentation, communication, any training that you've ever done, anything, right?
That's great.
But if the Apple isn't relevant...
What are DOS modems and no, the cheat codes for Duke Nukem 2 may not be essential for your resume.
That's all I'm saying. I can do phone freaking.
What was that old payphone thing?
With the...
Oh, never mind. I don't know, but put it on your resume for sure, just in case people are interested.
Yeah, you talk to these guys, these co-workers that talk about the old days, and it just...
The old days, you have DOS modems on your resume and you're complaining about other people talking about the old days?
Used carrier pigeons and smoke signals to support the Pony Express.
Fixed a friend's joystick for the Atari 2600 when I was 12.
Right.
I think we've milked this joke as much as possible, which is to say we only started Right, right.
We've got Greg going.
Yeah, Greg, this does not take much to unplug this geyser from Greg of old technology.
Know how to program, programmed missile commander in Mantis.
Anyway, so yeah, I don't want to go on all night, but those were sort of my suggestions about it.
You know, do research. I would focus on your industry experience, your documentation, your Even if you've told someone where the coffee is, that's training, baby.
So talk about that kind of stuff, right?
You're a different guy than you were a couple of years ago in terms of your level of comfort with people and so on.
So if you want to stay doing the tech stuff, then at the very least, pare down your resume to the stuff which is relevant to the job you're applying for.
Right. And, you know, maybe have a couple of resumes, hand them off to whoever's looking for work for you, if you've got a consultant, to just say, you know, if they want this, use this resume if they want this, just so it's not seven pages of, you know, nobody's going to make it, right?
Like, to read and process a seven-page resume would take at least 20 minutes or so, right?
Right, if you've got 100 resumes, there's just no way, right?
Right. I mean, you want to have a resume that no one's going to skim, or at least very few people are going to skim, and that means, you know...
So how do you fake interest in the industry and business?
Well, you can't.
If you don't find the industry or business interesting, then try not to work there, because it'll be boring and you won't do a good job.
I don't know if it's not your question, but...
I do find interest in oil and gas because you get to work with geologists and geophysicists.
I love working with them because they're interesting.
They have a lot of knowledge about those things.
It's cool because geologists...
I love seeing dinosaurs like Jurassic Park.
do I get to do that in the job?
Right.
Right.
If I had a hammer, I'd hammer in the morning.
Right.
Right.
Okay, and is there anything else that you wanted to talk about?
I've gone for almost an hour.
I just wanted to know, over an hour, is there anything else that you wanted to ask about in terms of this stuff?
Has this been useful or helpful?
Oh, very. Very helpful.
What about for everybody else?
Oh yeah, if you just wanted to chat whether other people found this useful, whether this would be a helpful podcast.
And I think we should put it out as a podcast just in case somebody does need Das Modem expertise.
Yeah, I think so too.
Because everybody else who knew that has died.
Or we killed them.
Or they just killed themselves.
I can't do another Das Modem.
Oh, just one last question then.
Oh, damn high. Sorry?
One last question about the two sort of sections that I have.
One is for employment history and what I did, and one is for the list of technologies.
Should I get rid of that list of technologies and just work with things I've done in specific industries and just...
I'm still sort of...
Lost on the format.
Well, you're focusing on the resume.
I'm saying focus on the job.
Right, because you need to tailor your resume to the job you're applying for.
So if the job that you want is technical-based, then have a resume that focuses on your technical stuff.
If the job that you want is more business, has some business components, then put that stuff more front and center, right?
Because you're like a tailor saying, you know, I've got a fat guy and I've got a thin guy coming in.
You know, how should I cut one suit for both?
It's like, well, you can't, right?
You have to tailor it, right?
Yeah. Okay.
I have an idea now of what I'm going to do.
And the good thing about that is it will prevent you from applying for jobs that you don't really want.
Because if you've got to spend 10 minutes, 20 minutes or whatever, getting your resume ready for a job, then...
If you're not interested, you won't do it.
Otherwise, if it's just, ah, I'll fire it off and see what happens, that's not good, right?
It's actually not good for the...
It's a waste of their time and it wastes your time as well, right?
Right. And it's a scattershot, you know?
It's like, I don't know what kind of woman I want, so I'll ask every woman in the bar to go out with me and see what happens, right?
Well, the worst thing is that the woman says yes, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
She wants 50 bucks the next morning.
50? Wow, it is a recession.
Okay, but yeah, I mean, that's what we're saying.
So, okay. Yeah, the purpose is to get the arrow into the bullseye, and that means aiming, right?
I mean, you just shoot randomly.
I'm sure I hit a bullseye sooner or later, right?
Right. So you got a job.
No more scattershot resumes.
Okay. This is my suggestion, right?
And I think particularly in a tough job market, you want to spend that extra bit of time, right?
Right. Is there a reason why they have you bring the resume to...
Oh yeah, I can tell you exactly why you bring the resume.
Because if you've got 200 resumes, you can't find it.
Okay. No, I guarantee you that's why.
It's like, here, hand me...
That's why you always bring two copies.
Because the guy, you know, the odds of, like, hit the big monster stack that he's got exactly the right one, remembers your name, he doesn't know what you looks like, right?
So it's like, yeah, just hand me your resume.
I called you in for a reason two weeks ago, I don't know what it was, but hand me your resume and I'm sure I'll remember.
Right. So I definitely need to pare it down before I leave.
Yeah, certainly by the time you're going in for an interview, you should have a pretty specific resume.
Right.
Good idea.
Wow, this is great stuff.
I hope it helps. You know, obviously, I mean, for you to get the job that you want that will make you happy and keep you in IT. I mean, not that you should or shouldn't, but that's where your investment is, right?
And that's where your money is.
Yeah, I still like computers.
I mean, I spend all day on computers and supporting them.
Then I come home and I get on a computer.
I seem to like them.
And I carry around a computer and I'm on it all day.
You know, the iPhone...
Yeah, I wouldn't bring all of that necessarily into the job interview.
No, I'm just telling you this.
Okay. I am single and I really refer to my inflatable girlfriend as a computer.
No, I'm just...
No, you enjoy it.
It's good technology. You enjoy it.
I must still like computers because of the empirical evidence.
It's just... I want to give it another good go and try a different route.
Like you were telling James, I don't think I've given it my all to find a really good IT job to where I end up.
Because I don't know if I'm losing my interest in supporting things or just computers because Of the environment I'm in and because of the crazy people I work with.
Well, actually I do, and I think it is because of that.
That's my theory. You won't be able to keep up with the young people.
You just won't. And it's, you know, A, because you're getting older, right?
But most importantly because they never knew about DOS modems, right?
And so... They just know the latest shit all the time.
They've just come out of school or they've just learned how to program on their own.
They haven't cluttered up all their brains with how to use graph paper to map out COBOL screens, right?
And this is why I need to make a move towards...
Yeah, this is why you need to make a move more towards the business side where the wisdom and where your investment in therapy is going to pay off, right?
Your investment in therapy is not going to pay off financially if you stay typing, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, you're right. You have a very good point.
And another reason why I need to go for IT management.
It's a possibility.
You can see if you like it, and if not, you can try something else.
But it's been my experience that there is burnout for purely technical folk.
Because you just cannot keep up, right?
I mean, eventually you have a family, you have kids, you just cannot keep up.
And then what happens is you get stuck in a backwater of maintenance and support.
And then you just get bored because you got into computers because you like new stuff, but you can't possibly keep up with the young guys, the young men and women who are coming straight in out of school or out of just learning all this shit and being part of these computer clubs or whatever.
They just know all the new stuff and they haven't got their brains all cluttered up with the old stuff.
So if you don't want to get stuck in the backwater of support that eventually will just have you so bored you want to open a vein, then you have to, I think, try and vault into more of the management side.
Brilliant. And that's what I want to do.
And even if I fail at it, like you were telling Greg, I will at least have come away succeeding in gaining that experience.
You would have succeeded at failing.
Yeah. And that's a success.
Yeah. Wow, this is just great stuff.
I'm going to... I have a lot more positive view towards...
Because I think I know where I'm going now.
Good. And I hope that we can, if you don't mind, we can post your resume with this podcast.
Sure. Fantastic.
And maybe you can show us one of the ones afterwards.
Yeah, you can do that.
Actually, let me put it up on my server and you can just link to it.
Beautiful. I don't know how you could...
You might as well just link to it.
Yeah, I don't want to pay for the ban, but...
Just kidding. Alright. Have yourself a good night, man, and get posted on how this all goes.
Okay. Alright, take care.
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