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June 10, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:29:24
1388 Integrity, Values, Mortality

A Listener Conversation.

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Hello. Oh, hi. Didn't realize this was going on.
This is Walter G. And remember, if you could mute, that would be excellent.
If you're not talking... Mr.
G, are you there? Yeah, here I am.
All right, so you had the question of questions, right?
It is, I don't know, the most important question after the acquisition of knowledge, which is, why am I not so much with the doing, right?
Yeah, that's the bottom line.
As we spoke before, I've had a lot of...
I've had my...
How to put this?
I've been sort of letting my temper go A lot more lately than usual, and kind of acting it out on people around me, particularly you guys, right?
And why the...
Why the anger has been coming up in the first place is one question, but more specifically, why I've not been very honest about it and why I've been acting it out is, I think, a much more troubling question, if that makes any sense.
Sure, absolutely.
And so, the acting out is the opposite of RTR, right?
Yeah, yeah, that's quite right.
We're all kind of clear on that, right?
Yep, absolutely.
And so, your question is then, why are you doing the opposite of what your values are, right?
Right, right. I claim to hold honesty and Curiosity and compassion and all of these things as values.
And I claim to care about acting consistently with principle.
And yet, when opportunities arise to demonstrate What I speak, I, at least recently anyways, have been more often than not choosing not to demonstrate that.
Okay, and can you tell me where, I mean you don't have to give me the details, but let's say when do you feel that you did this less rather than more or started doing it less?
That's a good question.
Just sort of looking back on my history here, I
can see there are times when it's been better.
when I've been more...
I mean, if we're...
To put a sliding scale to it, where I've been more frequently honest than not, but I've never been consistent about it.
That was an excellent non-answer.
Fantastic. Good job.
Do you want to try that runway again?
I'm sorry, you'll have to speak to my handler.
I'm not available at the moment.
I'll be in my trailer calling my agent because I can't work like this.
No, you're right. Alright, let's start with a couple more pointed questions.
Maybe that will help. And pointed doesn't mean negative or hostile, it just means more direct.
Do you feel that there was a peak in terms of honesty and openness and vulnerability and curiosity?
Do you feel that there was a peak at some point over the past, I guess, three years that you've been Orbiting the FDR home planet.
Like, was there a stretch or time where you felt that the majority of your interactions fell into this category?
And this could just be my own interpretation or this sort of story that I'm telling myself, but I thought that I had but I thought that I had sort of...
I felt like I'd reached a certain peak in the January, February timeframe of this year, and...
Then things kind of went really, really badly after that.
And if we look at the January-February timeframe of this year, would you say that, what percentage of your interactions would you say fell into the category of satisfying your values?
That doesn't mean perfect, right, but satisfying more or less your ideals.
What percentage? I mean, where it was required, right?
I mean, where it would be important.
so where you felt angry for instance and you were sort of vulnerable and sort of honest about it and so on that's a very good question as well um Because we need a benchmark, right, of where you feel that your ideals are being met versus not, right?
If you can't measure it, you can't manage it, right?
No, you're right about that.
You're right about that.
And you have a gut sense, right?
And it may not be exactly what you think, or it may be what you think in terms of meeting your values, but what would your gut sense be of where you felt?
Because not acting out is not the definition of RTR, right?
In the same way that not having bowel cancer is not the definition of good health, right?
Because you might have leukemia, right?
No, that's quite right.
Right, so the question is, because maybe for a time you withdrew from conflict and felt, good, you know, I'm not acting out.
But that's not solving the problem.
It's certainly not living according to the values that you aspire to, right?
No, that's true.
That's true. No, that's an excellent point.
And by that benchmark, I guess...
Really, there hasn't been a time, right?
No, see, I don't know, because obviously I don't know your interactions in January, February was pretty busy for me with the baby, so I don't have an opinion about whether you did or didn't, right?
But we're just trying to figure out what the benchmark is for you.
Right. Well, my impulse was to say that more than half the time...
In that time frame, at least more than half the time, I felt like I was being pretty honest and curious with myself and others.
So you said your impulse was to say, but that's a pretty convoluted way of telling me what you are not thinking, right?
So can you tell me what you think in terms of the percentage of honesty that you had during that time frame?
Sure. The situation that comes to mind specifically is my sort of involvement in the conflict between Jake and James.
And I felt like I was pretty honest in that situation.
But that wasn't your issue, right?
Right. It wasn't my issue at all.
That's true. Well, let me ask you this, because I know it's hard to quantify, right?
It is a tough question, but it's important to get some data, right, if you're looking for improvement, right?
So, let me ask you this.
On any given day, how many times do you feel annoyed or angry or irritated, and for how long?
Just roughly. Any given day.
So... If we take yesterday, for example, twice, probably twice a day.
Once a day, twice a day, maybe.
So you feel annoyed or angry or irritated once or twice a day?
Yeah.
And for how long?
Usually not for very long.
20 minutes or so.
That's fantastic. I actually think that you don't have a problem then.
Right, because, I mean, you got me beat, I'll tell you that, right?
So I should probably be asking for advice from you, because I think that's fantastic.
I mean, if you're only annoyed or angry, you know, 20 to 40 minutes, once or twice a day, I think that's great.
Hmm. Because then it's, you know, then it's, and maybe one of those is with someone else, so maybe you just, and you know, it's not, if it only lasts 20 minutes or 10 minutes at a time, then it's more just like a mild irritation.
So if you're only mildly irritated at someone once a day, or someone where you might have some sort of interaction, and maybe that would only be once every two days, if it's one out of four, then...
That's a pretty good mood and good standard, I think.
I wouldn't always quantify it as mildly.
Sometimes I'm very angry.
So sometimes you would get very angry, and how long would that last?
Well, it depends on the issue, but...
Sometimes as long as a day, other times as short as maybe an hour, right?
And there's sort of another dimension to this too, which is that, like for example, Thank you.
My behavior towards Nate in the past, right?
So I would get angry or irritated at him, and that would last for, you know, a few minutes to a few hours, depending on whatever it was that irritated me, right?
And that would fade, but it didn't really go away, right?
It would fade into sort of, I don't want to say the background, but It never got dealt with, right?
It just kind of went hidden, right?
And then it would come back up again.
And I've seen this as well with you, right?
Where I get annoyed or angry with something that you said and it would last for a little while and then go away, right?
But it didn't go away.
It just sort of It's submerged, I guess, is the way to put it.
Alright, and then let me ask you, of the two times a day that you would get annoyed, obviously maybe one out of two or one out of four would be with someone else.
To what degree do you feel that you have had successful resolutions to irritation that you have with someone?
That's a good question. What does successful resolution even mean?
Well, it means that you've got understanding, you know why you did it, you've apologized, the other person's apologized, there's an understanding of the roots of the conflict, and you don't feel any residual irritation, and the next time you talk to that person, there is no shadow, Right.
Now that's a good question.
And again, this sort of depends on the person, but it also kind of required but it also kind of required me to be open about it in the first place.
right? And so in the case of...
Nate, until recently, never, right?
It was never a successful resolution.
Well, no, but I'm asking for the successful ones, not for the unsuccessful ones, right?
Because we're looking at what we want to diminish.
Oh, sorry, what we want to increase, so...
Right. And there have been instances with Jake where I've had that.
I mean, we don't talk on a daily basis, but...
So you've had some successful resolution?
Yes. Okay. Yes. All right.
And have the successful resolutions been increasing or decreasing, I guess, in general?
Again, we're looking at the three-year period that you've been working on these principles.
Right. I think relative to you, They were increasing for a while, and lately they've been decreasing relative to...
Well, sorry, but they were decreasing because I took initiative to...
At least, that was my memory of it, right?
Like where you've taken the initiative to solve the problem, not somebody else.
Right, that's what I mean, is that I haven't...
That's sort of what I mean, is that I haven't taken the initiative to resolve the What I'm feeling.
I've acted it out or tried to suppress it or whatever.
And where it's required sort of your intervention to really deal with it.
So that's been on the decrease on my end, actually.
And relative to you.
But I think it's been on the...
No, I can't say that either.
All right, and let me ask you this.
Sorry, if we were to talk to other people in the community and say, to what degree do you think, what percentage of the time do you feel that Greg is negative or irritable or cynical or something like that?
what percentage do you think people would say?
Probably that's a good question.
Come on, you can't reason this out.
This is a gut answer, right? You're going to have to speed it up a little, right?
This is not, okay, well, carry the seven, put in the innate factor, and then divide by whoever, right?
No, you're right. I'm sorry.
More than half the time.
So people would think that more than half the time you might be irritated or negative or cynical or angry or something, right?
That's my gut guess, yes.
Okay. And again, I'm just trying to get to sort of where you sense.
So there is a bit of a difference, right?
Insofar as for you, the percentage of your waking time is like 3% or 4% that you feel annoyed.
But with other people, you feel that they may perceive you as being upset or angry.
At 50%, right?
So it means that if that's correct, it means that you're more irritated when you interact with people than when you don't, right?
I think that statement right there is absolutely true.
Okay, okay. I mean, that's good to know, right?
Again, we're just trying to parse out the problem and figure out where the actual issues are, right?
Right, right.
Okay. So other people feel that you are more irritable than you feel when you're not interacting with others, right?
So it means you have a better relationship with yourself than you do with others, right?
Well, other people irritate you, but you don't nearly as much, right?
Right, right. That's right.
And that doesn't necessarily mean that the relationship is better.
It could just mean that I'm ignoring things about myself that I should be paying attention to.
Well, but then we get into the, you know, maybe something's occurring that I can't feel, and there's no null hypothesis for that.
It's like, well, maybe there is, but we can only work with what we know.
Right, right. No, good point.
Good point. All right.
So... So your concern then is, well, let's go with the thesis that everything you've said is valid.
And of course, I'm not saying that anything you would say would be a falsehood, right?
But we'll just go with the information that we have.
Then, you know, the first thing that I would try and do is, you know, when you're trying to...
Sorry, somebody's echoing.
Oh, that's better. Okay. So when we want to improve anything, we look at the best case scenario and then look at what's not there, right?
So, for instance, if you have a bunch of coders that you're managing, and a bunch of them have 10% errors in their code or in their spec, and one guy has 5%, you won't focus on the guy who's got 5% and say, we need to get you to zero, right? Right, right.
The first thing you do is you focus on the 10% guys and try to get them to 5 because 5 is your benchmark and then maybe you can go to 4, 3, 2 or whatever.
Right, and you compare what the 10% guys are doing versus the 5% guy and try to get them to do the same things, right?
Exactly. So when you're looking at trying to improve your relationships, then you have to look at the best relationship that you have and figure out what you're doing that's working there and then figure out what you're not doing that's Right?
Right. Quite right.
So if your best relationship is with yourself, then you're doing something with yourself that is not annoying to you, but other people are doing stuff that is annoying to you.
Does that make sense? Because there are people who are on the other side of the spectrum, right?
That they self-attack a lot, and they try to escape self-attack by going into relationships, right?
Right. So other people are like, their best relationship is with other people, not with themselves, right?
Whereas if the case is, if what you're saying is true, then your best relationship is with yourself.
And you escape from other people to have a better relationship with yourself rather than people who escape a bad relationship with themselves for a, quote, better relationship with other people.
Does that sort of make sense? That's an interesting point.
That kind of puts a different spin on what I was thinking.
And what were you thinking? Well, I was just sort of mulling over why I have this impulse to isolate, and the thought occurred to me that it could be because by separating myself from other people,
I can kind of manufacture this story about myself that I'm not Capable of being aggressive or abusive or that sort of thing.
No, but I'm sure there's some truth in that, right?
So, if interaction with other people brings out bad habits in you, then, right, you will want to avoid, like, if you won't accept the bad habits as something core to work on, then you will be People avoidant, right?
In the same way that if you were an alcoholic and, you know, one group of friends are heavy drinkers and you're trying to quit being a drinker, you will avoid those people because they will provoke bad habits in you, right?
Right. And in a sense, that sort of puts the onus on other people for my problem, right?
Well, not so much because you're actually isolating yourself, right?
You're not asking other people to solve your problems, right?
You're solving your problems by not interacting.
Right, but it doesn't really solve the problem.
It only deals with the symptoms, right?
Because if other people are causing, not causing, but if bad behavior comes out of me when I'm around other people and I say, well, then I'll avoid other people, what I'm really saying is that I'll avoid the bad behavior, right? Right, and of course that is somewhat possible if you do actually isolate yourself, but of course you don't, right?
Not entirely, no.
What do you mean not entirely?
Well, what did you mean?
I mean, you're part of a community, right?
Oh, that's true. Five days for barbecue and so on, right?
Yeah, I could have just not come to the barbecue, that's true.
Right. And sorry, just for those who don't know, Greg was irritated or angry for a good portion of the barbecue, and that's sort of one of the things that, and didn't say anything to anyone, but was sort of a bit of a black cloud, again, just putting it metaphorically, right?
So that's why this sort of came up, right?
Right. All right.
So, in a sense, you're allergic to people, right?
I mean, because you have this reaction to a contact where the possibility arises that you will Do something that is problematic or negative or whatever, right?
Right, right. And there is a solution to that called isolation, right?
Like true isolation. And, I mean, just because you want to put all possibilities on the table, right?
Believe me, in the past it was a very tempting solution.
Well, yeah, and in the past, I mean, other than your family, it was a bit of an approach that you took, right?
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's quite right.
Right, so I guess the fundamental, sorry, do you feel that we've got some, we don't have any solutions, we're just sort of examining the problem, right?
Right, right.
Now, the ironic thing, right, because you say you have a better relationship with yourself than you do with others, at least that would be the result of looking at the gut level statistics that we're talking about, which means that you find the behavior of other people What?
Do you find it irrational?
Do you find it negative? Do you find it abusive?
Do you find it provocative? What is it about others that is more annoying than yourself?
Well, just to be specific about it, I find it anxiety-provoking.
I mean, when I'm around other people and they're sort of doing their thing, right?
Especially people who I've sort of decided are friends.
And especially when what they're doing is a sensitive topic for me.
I'll feel a lot of anxiety and a lot of Annoyance.
Yeah, if not down, right?
Anger, right? Right, right. Anger, I think, usually follows the anxiety, but I'm not positive about that.
So, that's the feelings that come up, are anxiety and annoyance and anger.
Right, right, okay.
Go on. Just looking at this weekend...
Sorry, this last...
You mean the barbecue weekend?
Right, the barbecue weekend.
See, though, the anxiety preceded the weekend, though.
Yeah, and I don't want to talk about anyone's behavior in particular, because we're really talking about your reaction or response to social situations.
Right, right. Right.
I'm trying to remember what your original question was there.
I'm sorry. I certainly think that's part of the purpose of what you're doing, is to go on a big roundabout and get everyone thrown off slowly into the fog bank.
Yeah, you're probably right.
So, when it comes to interacting with people, the reason that most people get annoyed with others It's because they have a feeling of if this, then that.
So if this person is irrational, then something bad will result.
So if person X is doing something irrational, then some negative scenario is going to play out in your mind.
That has to be.
Because, you know, for instance, you and I know that there are like a, what, half a billion people in India who are complete mystics, right?
Yeah, that's true.
And that's a lot of people, right?
And that's a nuclear-armed country, right?
And we don't sit there and say, oh my god, that amount of irrationality is overwhelming to me.
And why? Because they can't do anything to us, at least not directly, right?
Right. I mean, unless they push the button, right?
Right. But we don't worry about that either, right?
Typically, no. No.
So it's not some...
And of course, that would be a much more negative consequence than, you know, I don't know, somebody's typing something irrational on the FDR board or whatever.
Right. Quite right.
Right. So there is a domino effect that occurs when other people are irrational because we feel that the negative consequences of their irrationality are going to accrue to us.
Right? In other words...
Because they're crazy, we're going to suffer and therefore their craziness becomes an act of aggression that we have to respond to in self-defense, which means aggress back, right?
Right. It's like they've got a little button and every time they say something crazy, they push that button and we get a headache or a migraine or whatever, right?
And so we have to stop them being crazy because the negative consequences accrue to us.
So particularly and so negatively, right?
Yeah, yeah. So, are you suggesting that, I mean, there definitely was some of this going on, that I've got a judgment or a label there that's provokingly anxiety?
No, no, sorry. It's not a judgment or a label.
It's a fear of consequences.
Okay. Right, so if someone, like if I ask someone to drive me to the airport and that person shows up and they're blindfolded and I have to take their, maybe it's too late to call a cab or whatever, right?
I have to get into their car and they're going to drive me to the airport.
The fact that they're blindfolded is going to make me feel quite anxious and hostile, right?
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
That's very true. And why?
Why? Well, because in that situation, you're literally putting your life in their hands, and they're clearly not equipped to handle it, right?
Right, right. So, you are, you know, they're going to put you at grave risk, right?
So, in that situation, you're going to feel angry and tense and hostile because...
You're in a difficult and impossible to escape situation.
Again, I know it's not really impossible to escape, but just, you know, to go with that example.
Right, right, right. For lack of a better metaphor.
Understood. Right. Right.
Okay. So, you have a story that the irrationalities of others accrue negatively to you.
Now, the reason that that's such a nutty belief, Greg, is that it is quite the opposite of the truth.
At least now.
Obviously, when you were a kid, the irrationality of your parents had negative consequences to you.
We don't have to go over that.
It's clear where the story started, right?
Because it wasn't a story originally.
Right. Understood.
So, when I was a kid, my mother would sort of sit down and drone on to me about what she got, tarot card readings, and how she was going to knit a psychic helmet of protection for her friends and stuff like that.
I mean, I was trapped, and I couldn't say, let's just play nutty, because then the abuse would start.
But that situation where, I mean, you feel trapped, right?
And you're frightened, and you're angry, and you're hostile, and you can't get out.
And that was then, right?
That was certainly the case then, but it's not the case now, right?
Right, right. And in that situation, I mean, the only choice you do have is to kind of hide in your room or...
No, you can't. There's nothing you can do.
No, that's true. There's nothing you can do because you can't hide in your room.
People just don't have any boundaries, right?
Right. No, you're right.
That's quite right. So there's no escape.
You've got to come home, right? Yeah, eventually, yeah.
Yeah, and I can stay at the arcade, I can go to the bowling alley, I can go to friends' places, I can go for walks, I can go sit in a treehouse, I can go to the library.
I can go to lots of places, but eventually I've got to come home.
And of course, the longer I stay away, the more hostile my mother will be when I come home because then I'm using the home like a hotel.
Yeah, the worst it's going to get, right?
Yeah. So, you know, there's no escape, right?
There's no escape. Yeah, that's true.
Right? So, in the situation of growing up from that standpoint, we, I think, can fully understand that it was the case that the irrationalities of others had significantly negative consequences to us, right?
Yeah. I mean, it started like most pathologies.
It started in a very real place.
And it's only a pathology because the situation has changed, right?
Right, because now I'm not dependent, right?
Right. And again, I use the word pathology loosely.
And the reality is, of course, we're not designed to change.
We're not designed to adapt to new social circumstances, because for the vast majority of human history, there were no new social circumstances.
You know, there's a cave, there's a tribe, there's a mountain lion, and there's some food to eat that grows in the ground, and there was no change, right?
And we're not designed to be adaptive.
That's why it's so hard to change, right?
Nobody ever got away from their parents in the past, right?
If that was the situation.
You couldn't even get away from anyone, right?
The guys who bullied you when you were six were the guys who bullied you when you were 60.
Yeah, that's true. We're just not designed to change.
We're not designed to change.
That's why it's so hard, right?
Yeah. I think I agree with that.
Well, at least... In a social context.
I mean, we're designed to be flexible within a certain range, but beyond that...
We're designed to either be a bully or be bullied, but we're certainly not designed to be free, right?
Because that's not what was at all possible, and there was no point, right?
Right, right. But what I mean is that, I mean, you have to be flexible enough to assume one of those two roles, right?
Oh yeah, but that's not being free, right?
That's just bully-victim ecosystem, right?
Right, right, quite right.
That's like the abusers who end up abusing their children, they've switched roles, but also the people who were abused as children who end up abusing their children, they've switched roles, but they certainly haven't grown and be free, right?
Quite right. That's true.
So we're not designed to do that any more than we're designed to have intense muscularity and 2% body fat, right?
I mean, you can do it, but it's a shitload of work, right?
Right. Right, and in the end, you still end up looking like Schwarzenegger.
And on the plus side, it means that when we do get it right, it's not going to go wrong again, right?
As a society, as a species, when we do get a state of society, when we do have benevolent parenting, when people are free, there's no way it's going back, because we're not designed to adapt even to negative situations.
Sorry, adapt away from negative situations.
We sure as hell aren't going to fundamentally adapt away from positive situations, so...
Well, we adapt to the extent that we minimize the potential for death, right?
Right, but you really...
Okay, I'm a little annoyed right now because you keep misinterpreting what I'm saying, and you're smarter than that.
Right? Because I'm not...
Of course I say that we adapt.
I've done a whole system on the MECO system, a whole series on the MECO system which you've listened to, right?
Which is all about adaptation.
Oh, yeah. But that's not at all what I'm talking about, right?
Oh, boy. No, you're right.
You're right. This bothers you, right?
And you're kind of throwing roadblocks into the conversation, which I would...
What the hell is going on? If I had to accept that, I had to think that your IQ was like 30 points lower, right?
Which I don't... No, that's true.
And this is an example of not being honest, right?
Again, I'm not saying you're being dishonest, but this would be like an example in the moment.
You feel annoyed or anxious about something that I'm saying...
But you keep just sort of throwing up these silly roadblocks rather than listen to...
And again, maybe you could disagree with what I'm saying, but not at this level, right?
You're right. So why does it bother you that it's very hard?
Because, I mean, this is the fucked up thing, right?
You're having this call because you're saying, it's really hard for me to change for the better.
And here I am saying, it's really hard to change for the better.
And you're like, no, no, no, it's not.
Wow.
Wow, that's right.
You're just sort of restating what I said at the beginning in a different way, and I'm contradicting you.
Well, yeah, but you're not contradicting my argument.
When I say it's really hard for us to be philosophical, productive, and free, and you say, well...
No, but we certainly do adapt to crazy and abusive irrationalities.
It's like, but that's the complete opposite of what I'm saying, right?
No, that's right. That's right.
That's right. Okay, so let's...
I mean, obviously you're unconscious through this up as a way of dealing with this in the moment.
So let's do that, right? Okay.
All right. So when did you begin to feel annoyed?
Or anxious or something?
Um... It would have been...
Because initially you were quite positive to the examples that I was giving, right?
Yes. That it's really hard for us to adapt, and you were quite positive, and then you became obstructive, right?
Yes, yes. I'm just trying to piece the conversation back together in my head here.
Please, you know, be patient with me here.
Feeling a little foggy.
So... No, that's good, because if you weren't foggy, then you would just be being a jerk, right?
You're not, right? So, of course you're foggy.
And now I'm starting to feel a little scared because I...
Why did that come on?
I definitely felt a spike right when the first time you said, but we're not designed to adapt.
All right.
I had this impulse to interrupt you and correct you and tell you that, well, in fact, you know, genetics and biology and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? It has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
Well, it kind of does, right?
And this is why RTR would have been helpful, right?
Because if you'd have said, you know, when you said that, I just felt really annoyed and an emotional desire to contradict you.
Right, right. Because that would have been very helpful, right?
Yes, yes. And I'm trying to understand why I didn't do that.
Yeah, because you say, I feel annoyed.
I felt annoyed when you said that, and I have no idea why.
Right. Right.
And why didn't I do that?
I mean, do you want me to tell you why I think you didn't do that?
Or do you want to thrash around for a while?
I mean, it's either way.
Well, I've been trying to answer that question for myself all week, and I can't come up with anything, so...
Yes, please.
Well, what we talked about in the convo that I don't know will ever make it out of my hard drive, but was around your vanity, right?
That you have some...
Some vanity. I mean, as we all do, right?
But I don't think that you're very conscious of it.
No, I think that's right.
Can you step through that again?
Sorry, step through what? I know this sounds ridiculous, but when you were describing The vanity problem and what it means and how it manifests itself and all of that.
Oh, sure. Okay, very briefly, this is a good summary for those, obviously, everyone else who wasn't on our private call.
When you came to the barbecue, and this was just an example, right?
You came to the barbecue with, you know, you've been looking forward to it for months, you had great expectations and so on.
And you felt, and you saw, you know, James on Saturday and John on Sunday.
They worked through some very difficult emotional issues.
It certainly wasn't, that wasn't the point of the barbecue, but where it came up, we dealt with it, right?
Right, right. And so you saw those people being open and honest about some difficulties they were having, and you weren't open and honest from soup to nuts about the difficulties you were having, right?
Which is why you were very depressed when you left, right?
That's true. Yes.
Right, so the vanity is, well, you know, it's fine for them to do it, but I don't need to do it, right?
Oh, yes, yes, that's right.
I'm above that. I don't need to do that.
That's for the other people who have problems.
I'm fine, because I don't need to do it.
I mean, I subscribe to the ethic, but I'm such a master of it that I don't need to do that.
That's for other people, right? Right, that's right.
No, you're right about that.
That's exactly right.
And the vanity, I mean, vanity is what we build on insecurity, right?
And you're right about it being unconscious because, you know, I had to have it explained to me again, right?
Right, of course. And, you know, if you'd gotten it, it would have been a bit confusing, right?
And so the weird thing, right, of course, is that we feel, you probably felt a little bit superior to these people and annoyed by what they were doing when they were the ones who were actually being brave and honest and vulnerable, right?
Yes. So we feel superior to those who are actually doing and achieving the values that we claim but are actually rejecting in practice.
Right, so this is a huge projection.
So I have this story about them being irrational or whatever and that That then provokes anxiety and anger in me because...
No, no, you're starting off wrong, which is okay, right?
But I'll sort of tell you what I think is, right?
Tell me if it makes any sense.
Okay. Well, they're doing what you should be doing.
Right. Right.
What you claim to be your values, honesty and openness.
And you're not saying...
And it could have been, you know, with me or Christina or whatever, right?
Anybody, right? Saying, I feel really annoyed and I don't know why.
I can't manage it and I don't want it to negatively impact other people, but I know it's going to if I don't talk about it.
So, given that I have this belief in this kind of honesty and openness, I need to talk about this because if I don't, it's going to be negative for other people, right?
That's right. That's right.
I mean, also, it's having a pretty damaging effect on relationships, right?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So, you know, it's out of honesty and desire for quality in interactions.
So when other people are sort of, you know, talking about things that are difficult and tough for them, they're doing what you know you need to do, right?
And so you resent them, right?
In the same way that, you know, two people set out to lose weight together, and one of them does and one of them doesn't, right?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because he's cheating on the diet or whatever, right?
And he's going to resent the other person, right?
You're right about that. And so you feel resentment towards them because they're doing what you need to do.
And so you feel less than them, right?
Because they're following the values that you claim to hold, right?
Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
And so because you feel less than them, you have to level up by feeling superior, right?
Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
That's true. Like, you know, think of two, to take a silly example, right?
Two women set out to lose weight and one of them loses weight and the other one doesn't.
Well, the one who doesn't lose weight or maybe even gains weight is going to say, oh, you know, that person, she's just become so insufferable since she lost weight.
She thinks she's just so this, she's so that.
All she does is talk about how thin she is and she's going to feel the need to level up, right?
Quite right. And so the funny thing, and it is funny, although it is also tragic, right, is that You feel that people are aggressing against you with their irrationalities when quite the opposite is true.
Exactly. That's exactly right.
Yeah, that's why I said this has all been just a big projection, right?
I mean, I do it to others and then accuse them of doing it to me.
Right. And this is, you know, this arises out of, I mean, it's a parental defense, right?
Parents are aggressive to children because they feel the children are being aggressive towards them, which is total rejection, right?
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. We all know this, yada, yada, right?
Yeah, I was listening to part two of the corruption series and everything in that conversation pretty much parallels what happened to me over the weekend, what I did over the weekend.
Yeah. Well, yeah, now, I mean, you weren't as far as I, I mean, yeah, but anyway, so, and so there is the vanity, and the vanity comes from not having the courage to do what you value, right?
To live your values. I mean, you can change your values, you can say, but it's the null zone.
You don't live the values, but you don't reject them either, right?
Right. And that's a kind of torture, right?
So you may say, you know, well, the honesty thing is, you know, it sucks.
It's not healthy. It's not right.
Whatever. It's a therapy cult.
Whatever you would say, right?
And then you'd say, okay, so I'm no longer going to have that as a standard, right?
I think that not being that honest is, you know, being that honest is unhealthy.
It's Clingy, it's dependent, whatever you'd come up with.
And you say, okay, I don't hold these values anymore.
You know, I reject the RTR approach to honesty and openness and so on.
And so I don't subscribe to that anymore, right?
Yeah, but I don't believe those things.
Well, you do and you don't, right?
Because you have them intellectually. But if we look empirically, it's not something that you have a strong habit of implementing, right?
That's right. Right, so the worst thing is to have the values that you don't achieve, right?
And, I mean, again, I say this with all humility because I've spent the majority of my life having values that I don't achieve.
So, again, I'm not on a mountaintop here.
I'm in the trenches too because I certainly don't achieve every value I have every day now and I never will.
But if we can be conscious of falling short of our values, that's the first thing.
Right? That's right.
Yep, yep, that's true.
And what are you feeling now?
I feel a lot of sadness.
I'm sorry.
A lot of...
Despair.
Some anger.
Some anger.
Go ahead.
If you could just stop moving around so much, it's quite noisy in the microphone.
I'm sorry. No, no problem.
Go on. I guess the thought that's coming up is I'm that guy,
right? That The blowhard that spouts off all this bullshit and then never actually does anything about it.
I'm that guy.
Go on.
I don't want to be that guy.
Well, I'm not saying you are, Ant, because I don't know.
But tell me more about that guy, because obviously he's got quite a presence in your mind, right?
So tell me about that blowhard.
What's he like? What's he all about?
Well, I'm just sort of looking, you know, at my own behavior versus what I say, right?
And I mean, he's kind of a hypocrite, right?
He's sort of the... Alright, you're going to have to deepfog that language because I can guarantee you the inner image is more intense than he's kind of a hypocrite.
Again, we're just talking about the fears.
We're talking about what it is that you're concerned about.
We're not passing judgment on your character, right?
But what is the worst case scenario if you are this kind of blowhard?
What is that blowhard like?
Well, what is he like? what is he like?
Judgmental, for sure.
Which I have been.
I'm sorry, don't compare him to you, right?
Just talk about this guy.
All right.
Yeah, I just have a lot of, like, I just have a lot of sort of conclusions about him, right?
Judgmental and aggressive and really annoying, preachy and And self-important.
And you know the next question I'm going to ask.
Sure. Sure.
Actually, no, I don't.
I'm sorry. All right.
Well, when we have a very strong Inner image, right, of someone.
The next question is always, who in our family is this?
Because if you have a great fear of being some guy and you're taking some steps that, in your words, put you in that category and it's completely unconscious, then it's from early childhood. put you in that category and it's completely unconscious, then I mean, no question, right?
Something that deep doesn't pop into your head when you're 25, right?
No, that's true. So who are you describing in your family?
Or is it just all of them?
I don't know. That would definitely be...
See, this is what's bizarre about my parents.
For me, that would be my mother.
My mother was always the far more physically aggressive, far more openly judgmental and hostile and resentful and all that.
My dad was always the sort of passive aggressive, wishy-washy type.
I'm sorry, passive aggressive?
Is this the guy who hit you with a belt?
Oh, that's true.
Maybe you're using the word passive in opposite land, right?
Because that seems like pretty openly aggressive.
Right, but he would be the one that would always quote Bible passages about, you know, don't judge others and things like that, right?
And you don't think that's describing your dad when he says don't judge others and then he beats his children?
Isn't that judging your children?
Isn't that completely hypocritical?
Yeah, yeah. Yep.
Yep, that's quite right.
That's quite right. Maybe it's both of them.
You know, the strongest is the tag team, right?
The bad food tag team, you know, is when things are the most unconscious, right?
Yeah. I never thought of it that way, but yeah.
Yeah. They did sort of swap roles occasionally.
Take turns, you know, sometimes either being the passive-aggressive one or being the aggressive one.
Right, right, right. So you're boxed in, right?
And, I mean, on truth, it's really all about going to your parents with their own values and saying, here's where I think you fell short in your values.
Let's talk about it.
Yeah, I couldn't even do that.
Well, no, you could have.
You didn't, right? No, I didn't.
That's right. That's right.
And that may or may not have been, you know, the wise thing to do.
It's not particularly important now because we're not going to go back and do it again, right?
But really that is the examination of the family that is so essential, right?
Which is these are your values and this is where you fell short of your values as we all do.
I'd like to talk about it because I don't think you know that you fell so far short of your values, right?
That's quite right. Right.
it's tough, you know, it's tough to take your own inventory, right?
Right.
And that's why.
And say, well, fuck everyone else.
How am I doing relative to what I want, relative to what I believe in?
Right.
Right.
And that's.
And if we don't do that, right, if we don't take our own inventory with, you know, a critical but not abusive eye and with kindness, as I hope that I'm doing with you and do with other listeners, if we don't do it, then what we will inevitably end up it's an over-focus on the failings of others.
right? Which is exactly what I've been doing.
Exactly what you've been doing.
Yes. And a lack of humility relative to the difficulty of the task.
Because it's really hard to criticize other people for not lifting 200 pounds when we can't lift 20 pounds.
It's really hard to do it.
In fact, the only guys who criticize those who are having trouble lifting 200 pounds are those who can't lift 20 pounds.
That is absolutely inevitable.
The people who criticize that harshly In that general manner, particularly those who are, you know, they're close to or respect or share values with, like I criticize religion, but I'm an anti-theist, right?
So I think that's okay, right?
But for sure, the people who are heavily critical of others are those who are clearly expressing that they can't or won't take their own inventory, right?
Yeah. And everyone gets, and the reason, I mean, everyone gets that consciously or unconsciously, right?
And that was definitely true with both my parents and that was me.
Right. I mean, your parents would be, I'm sure, particularly your mother, would be sentimental.
Oh, I love my children. I'd do anything for my children.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And those are the values.
And you'd say, well, you know, you didn't quite meet up to it in many areas and here's what I think, right?
Right, right. And, you know, be willing to hear the other person's viewpoint and this and that, right?
But, you know... Yeah, well...
And the reason that we often can't do that is because other people can turn around and say, well, you know, what about your level of integrity to your values?
That's right. And we fear that coming back, which is why in order to gain the right to criticize, we have to be self-critical first so that we can be comfortable with, yes, I don't meet my own values as well, and we can talk about that, but I'd like to talk about this first.
Right.
Right, I couldn't do that.
No, I wouldn't do it.
Not that I couldn't. You would have a tough time, right?
Because if you were honest about your criticisms of people at the barbecue...
You know, and I don't know what they were, right?
But, you know, I think you're a hypocrite.
I don't like you. That was too much.
You're too loud. You're too quiet.
You're too this. You're too that, right?
If you were actually honest about your criticisms at the barbecue to people or in a group, right?
What would happen?
Well, it would immediately come back around to me, right?
Well, I don't think immediately.
I certainly would say, go on, you know, tell us more about how bad we are or how wrong we're doing everything.
You know, go on, right? Right.
Right. Right.
But I sort of...
I recognized it right away, right?
Which is why I didn't do it, right?
Right, right. Because clearly the hostility would be The imperfections that you were attacking, however real they may or may not be, would be vastly dwarfed by the irrational hostility of your demeanor, right?
Oh, yeah. And, of course, people might say, well, didn't you snap at a kid at the golf, right?
I mean, are you not focusing, perhaps, on the problems that other people have without focusing on your own temper or whatever, right?
Right, right.
Right, so you get stuck in the null zone, right?
You won't criticize others because clearly that just was going to bounce back on you, right?
You won't live the values because that would require vulnerability which goes against your vanity.
But you also won't let go of the values because then you would have to admit to yourself that you're not meeting them, right?
Oh, wow. And you live in this world and we all do, right?
So this is just something that we all need to be conscious of, right?
You live in this world Well, you're the magical exception, right?
It's like UPB for everyone but me, right?
You're the magical exception, right?
In the same way that every religious person believes that God is the magical exception to that which exists.
And people who are statists believe that the state is the magical exception to the non-aggression principle, right?
The magical exception is the foundation of most of the destruction in the world, right?
And again, I'm not putting you in that category, but we all do have to watch out.
For the magic Lewis Carroll bunny hole where we get to not be enveloped in the rules, right?
Right. That we believe in that are universal, right?
I mean, the first guy to discover the law of gravity did not gain the ability to fly, right?
No, that's right. That's quite right.
Because he's bound by the rules that he's describing and he accepts that.
He doesn't say, well, I've got a PhD in physics now, I can walk on water, right?
Right, right.
In fact, he's going to be even more certain that he cannot fly because he knows the universality of the rules and he does not create the magical rabbit hole exception for himself, right?
Right. Right, so this is...
So you've got a rabbit hole for yourself, right?
Which is, well, you know, UPB, RTR, honesty, whatever.
The rules are the rules, and yes, they are universal.
And I'm going to take all the goodies that come out of universality, and there are a lot of goodies in universality, right?
Sure, sure. Universality is great because it gives you certainty, it gives you objectivity, it gives you authority, it gives you ethics, it gives you deep knowledge, right?
So universality, and it gives you the ability to judge, right?
Without it just being bigotry.
So universality is fantastic.
We love it. We love it!
Ooh, until it points at us.
Especially... And for me, especially the judgment part.
Right. And if you use philosophy as a psychological defense, you won't be happy.
Yeah. Right?
We all know that, right? Yeah.
And the only way to know that you're not using philosophy as a psychological defense, and I'm not saying this is your sole or total engagement, right?
With philosophy, I'm just talking about this aspect.
The only way to know is to take our own inventory relative to ideals and universality first and foremost, right?
Quite right. Because obviously we can't change others, but we can change ourselves if we...
Change ourselves. But you don't want to be that guy, right, who's behind the wheel of a car, who's swerving from lane to lane on his cell phone, playing a video game with his foot while typing on his Blackberry with his nose, right? And then saying, Jesus Christ, everybody's such a bad driver, they're all swerving all over the place, they're honking horns, they're going up on the median, they're like, what the hell's wrong with everyone, right?
And all they're doing is trying to not hit you, right?
Right, exactly.
That's quite right. Because they all look like bad drivers, because they're all over the road, but they're just trying to dodge you, right?
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
That's exactly. And this little rabbit hole where we're the exception to the rules that we universally apply to others, the rabbit hole is vanity, right?
And the vanity comes from the insecurity.
And the insecurity comes from despair that we're ever going to meet the values.
And it is a self-perpetuating thing.
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
Because if I'm like, oh shit, fundamentally if I feel like I'm never going to be able to live these values, I'm going to hang on to my vanity and my judgmental side, and so on, then it becomes true that we are not going to beat our values, and we also lose the respect of the people who, you know, we probably care for a good deal, blah, blah, blah, blah.
It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, but it doesn't have to be that way.
That was something else I was thinking about this week, too.
I didn't want it to become one of those Self-fulfilling prophecy, one of those declared inevitabilities that really isn't, right?
You know, like, a little voice in my head saying, see, I told you so, all right.
Sure, sure, sure.
That there's always – that nothing is ever that inevitable, right?
There's always the choice.
I just need to figure out why I'm making...
Well, I don't think that you do.
Because you have one of two responses when this kind of stuff comes up, right?
You either want other people to give you resources to help you figure it out, right?
Which is, again, overdrawing a bank balance that might be a little in the negative already, which is, again, not positive for your relationships.
Or you want to withdraw into a cave and, you know, isolate yourself and stare at your belly and figure out what it is, right?
But neither of those will work, in my opinion.
I mean, if you want to find out why you're not meeting your values, it's very easy to do.
And it's kind of an impossible situation, that scenario, right?
Because... Well, no, you can ask for resources from other people.
But if it's the sixth time and you still haven't changed, then...
Right? No, that's right.
You're right. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Because then people won't respond and give you many resources.
And then you're like, aha, I knew that was a reason.
I wasn't opening up to these people or whatever.
Right, right. Quite right.
But no, it's very easy to figure out why you're not meeting your values.
All you have to do is meet your values and then figure out what you feel, right?
Right. Right, so if you go to the doctor and you say, there's a pain in my knee, and he says, well, where is it?
And you say, well, it happens when I lean forward on my knee, but I don't remember where it is.
The doctor can't diagnose anything, right?
What the doctor's going to have to do is he's going to have to say...
Well, lean forward on your knee and tell me where it hurts, right?
Right, right.
And then you get the specific pain, and then you can begin the diagnosis, right?
Quite right. That's right.
And so, if you don't know why you're not meeting your values, the best way, the only way, I would say, given how unconscious it is, is to just meet your values and look at the fallout.
Right, right.
Measure the... measure the response...
Doctor, I don't know why I'm overeating so much.
Well, stop eating and see what happens.
Right, right, right.
I mean, I wish it were more sophisticated, and certainly what comes up is going to be exciting and interesting, but you just meet your values, right?
Right. And then just see what comes up, right?
Right. And that...
Every time you say that, I feel...
Nauseous.
Yeah. Of course.
Yeah, absolutely. And that's what you've got to deal with.
A lot of fear and a lot of also some anger, too.
Sure, because I'm putting you in a situation that punctures the vanity, right?
So you're going to feel put down and you're going to want to level up and you're going to whatever, right?
You're going to look for hypocrisy in me.
You're going to go right back to looking for faults in others, right?
Because you feel put down by whatever, right?
But see, I'm not telling you to do anything, and I'm certainly not imposing any values on you, right?
All I'm saying is that if you have these values, then aim to meet them, right?
That's not radical, right?
Right, yeah. I think I just figured out what the anger is, too.
There's a voice in my head saying, well, he's accusing you of not doing that, right?
And of course I'm not.
Well no, you're accusing you of not doing that.
Because, right, you're the one who's saying, you know, I value honesty, but I'm not as honest as I'd like to be.
Right. No, and that is true.
That's exactly true.
I mean, I've seen what good it can do, right, and so...
So I do value it, and yet at the same time, I can't say that I value it if I'm not willing to do it, right?
Right. You see, again, I mean, you say you want to go north, and I say it's that way, right?
And then you're like, why are you making me walk that way?
Right. I'm not.
If you want to go north, that's north, right?
And if you don't want to go that way, then you don't want to go north, right?
But you stop and ask for directions, and I say, it's up that street.
And you're like, why are you forcing me to drive up that street?
But you're the one who wants to go north.
You're the one who has these ideals.
And obviously, I think that they're good ideals, and I think that they're valued and enlightened ideals.
But I'm saying that the gap between your actions and your ideals, in fact, the actions are rejection of the ideals.
That is making you unhappy.
And lonely, right?
And so, you know, I'm saying adjust your ideals to match your actions or adjust your actions to meet your ideals.
That's all I'm saying, right? Because having the gap between the two is crazy-making, right?
It's like the guy who always complains about being overweight.
It's like either accept that you're overweight and have a good life, be fat, or lose the goddamn weight.
Right, right, right.
But this, you know, this disparity, and of course this guy is just complaining about, this metaphor would be you're just complaining about other people being overweight, right?
Yeah, yeah, which, yeah, I mean that fits perfectly with what I've been doing.
Right, so I really want to reinforce the voluntarism here, right?
Nobody obviously forced you to accept these values.
If you can find logical flaws in the values or problems in the values, then share them with all of us, right?
But the best way to do that is to act them and figure it out, right?
There is an empiricism to what we're doing, right?
That if you do it and it makes you miserable and you end up, I don't know, in federal prison or something, right?
Then we have to revisit it, right?
But, you know, find a flaw in the values or reject the values, right?
But that would make you feel anxious too, right?
Oh, yeah. So, we're just looking.
It's a gap analysis is all we're doing.
It's saying you have the values, you're doing the opposite in very essential areas.
So, you need to close that gap, you know?
Lower your standards or raise your activity.
Right, right. But it's nothing to do with telling you what to do.
If you can externalize this, you will, right?
Because it's much easier to get resentful of others than it is to challenge yourselves, right?
Right, right. And that kind of goes back to the impulse to isolate as opposed to actually dealing with...
Yeah, because isolation sends a clear message to other people too, that you people can't help me because you're crazy and I have to figure this out by myself, right?
Isolation is a very, very clear signal to other people that you're probably not very conscious of, right?
If every time I had a problem with Christina, I went up into my room and sat there for two hours journaling, I would clearly be telling her that I can't solve the problem with her, and I need to be alone to solve it, and that is because she's crazy or whatever.
Right, and that also serves to reinforce the special exception rule I have for myself.
Right. The superiority is like, well, I can't possibly work on my advanced theory of relativity with you preschoolers, so I have to, right?
Right. Go to my monkey cave and deal with it alone, right?
Right. Right.
Quite right. And the last thing that I'll say is that, you know, you're not going to live forever, right?
Right. The special exception, the ultimate rabbit hole, is this fantasy of eternity, right?
That... We can solve the problem next year because we have an infinity of years.
We can do all of this later.
There is a necessary panic that comes from an acceptance of mortality that spurs us to action in the present.
Because you maybe have 30 or 40 more years and you just spent 3 not quite living up to what it is that you claim.
Why would you want to spend 4?
That's just another subtraction that you're never getting back.
So if you're going to try and live your values, do it now.
And if you're not, then give up the values.
But to live in this null zone, you have to remember that you're going to be dead.
Right? And every day that you're not doing what you value, you don't get it back.
There's no mulligans, right?
Like, well, I didn't really use that, so I want a refund.
Well, no, you don't get a refund.
They all just drop off like pennies rolling off a cliff, never to come back.
And that panic, right?
The special exception that we have is Later.
I know it's a value.
I know I really should achieve it, but next week, next month, next year, right?
Yeah. And we can keep doing that until there is no next week, next month, next year.
That's right. And fool ourselves into the distractions of imagined eternity.
That's exactly right.
And the infinite procrastination that comes from the fantasy of infinite life, right?
Yeah. Because if you're going to do it, right, whatever you're going to do in life, if you're going to do it, then do it now.
I mean, you may not have 30 years.
I may not have 30 years.
We may not have 30 days.
That's true. That's true.
That's true. And, I mean, don't you want the pride as well that comes from really living your values and finding the flaws if there are those flaws through action?
And also, don't you want the admiration of other people for being that honest and inspiring people?
And being gentle and kind and curious and strong and all of the things that we want, that we would respect in others?
You want that respect from people.
You want that positive feedback from people.
I mean, that's a wonderful thing.
And you want to give, especially you want to give people newer to the conversation an example of some kind of mastery, right?
you Because that inspires people, right?
Saying, well, you know, I may not have a six-pack yet, but I can do more sit-ups like that guy and whatever, right?
I mean, they'll inspire them to work right through the positive example.
That's right. That's right.
And by not acting on these values,
I've been Well, you've just been showing people that it doesn't really work, right?
Yeah, I've been pushing other people away from them.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I don't think that's your focus, but that is a sort of result, right?
Right. I've been on this diet for three years now, right?
And I weigh this, right?
Yeah, yeah. People are going to say, well, that's not a very good diet, right?
Right. And the end result is that I end up taking others down with me.
Well, that is an effect for sure, right?
Right. Now, I mean, again, I'm not saying it's anything you're aiming at, but it is a consequence, right?
I mean, because you're involved in a community and you're a public figure, right?
That's right. So if you were just a listener in your room alone and no one knew, then what's one?
That's what I mean when you say, well, I do spend most of my time.
But you're in a community and you're a public figure and people know you've been around for a long time and all that kind of stuff, right?
So there is that aspect, right?
I mean, it's something to mull over, right?
Because I think you want to inspire people to pursue self-knowledge and philosophy rather than, you know, possibly not, right?
That's right. That's absolutely right.
You know, whatever...
In whatever capacity, I just...
I... Because the opposite of not inspiring...
I mean, the opposite of inspiring is not inspiring to actually be motivating.
Oh, absolutely. For sure.
For sure. And so there are some people, of course, and I mean, this is just a matter of empathizing with others, right?
There's some people who, you know, they're at the barbecue and they're like, oh, this is the famous Greg.
Yeah. Right? This is listener number three or whatever, right?
This is the famous Greg.
He's had a lot of conversations...
He's been in therapy for years.
He's really been heavily involved in philosophy and self-knowledge and so on.
It's great to meet him.
I wonder what he's like. You too can achieve this if you sacrifice much and pursue truth and wisdom and self-knowledge.
You too can snap at children and grumble all weekend.
And again, that's just a sensitivity to others.
And I'm certainly not saying that you would do it for me or for philosophy, but for something that you value, right?
Because we say that we want a rational world, and we want a world of empathy, and we want a world of curiosity, and we want a world of honesty and openness.
And if we don't live that ourselves, then we're actually saying we don't want that, right?
Because we're not inspiring people to pursue it.
Right, right.
And I'm not talking about being fake and positive and happy, empty Christian optimist, but being that honest, right?
Right, but actually acting in such a way that you're achieving it, right?
Because to act in opposition, you spread the cynicism and you spread the misconception that Of what it means to do this and work to actually act on your values and all of that.
You're... Yeah, you're not just stopped, you're going backward.
Well, and yeah, and you're taking impressionable people with you, right?
Right. And I mean, impressionable, just, you know, new to the conversation, right?
Right. And, you know, by the by, I mean, it puts me in a tricky situation, too.
It's like, do I want snarly grumble guy here at Christmas?
Well, that's not fun, right?
It's not a fun thing to think about, right?
Right. Right. Exactly.
I mean, either way, it's kind of...
It's hard on you.
Right. Because...
Either you invite me and risk...
What I may show up like.
Or you don't invite me and then have to explain it.
Right? Right.
Right. And neither is...
Neither is very...
Neither is very good.
Right. So, I mean, obviously there's a lot of reasons why.
I mean, the most fundamental one being that these are the values that you hold.
There's a lot of reasons why I think you would want to just, you know, just do it.
And to me, that is just a matter of, I mean, I'm not a huge fan of willpower, but it's not a bad thing to jumpstart the engine, right?
Just say, well, I'm going to do it.
I'm just going to grit my teeth and keep doing it, right?
Yeah, I need to do that.
I mean, I think so.
You need to drop the values, you need to live them, because this gap is not healthy.
And it's not helpful to you or to others, right?
That's right.
That's right.
That's exactly right.
It's certainly not doing me any good.
No, it's not. And when I said, of course, that it's a really tough thing to do, that's when you got annoyed, right?
Earlier on, when you started being obstructionist, right?
I said, yeah, it's a really tough thing to do because we're not adaptable and it takes a lot of willpower and it takes a lot of strength.
The reason you got annoyed was because you knew you'd have failed that difficult task, right?
Yes, that's right.
That's right.
I But I'm pretty...
And you also knew that you were only able to be critical of others because you weren't attempting, right?
At that point, no.
I wasn't attempting at all.
Right. So, I mean, when I talk about how difficult it is, I know it's difficult because I still struggle with it a lot, right?
So I'm gentle with myself for that struggle because I know that I'm not biologically or genetically designed to adapt to freedom, right?
That was a very dangerous thing to do throughout almost all of human history, right?
That's quite right. That's quite right.
Hey, this isn't a priest of God.
This is just a weird guy in a painted mask.
Bye-bye, right? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, it didn't really...
Not a gene that is selected for success, right, to say the least.
Right. No, that's exactly right.
Yeah, it works. Yeah.
And gentleness, you know, gentleness towards the struggle of others simply comes from being in the trenches with them, right?
Right, which is more, just more evidence that I haven't been, right, because I haven't really shown that much Well, it comes and goes, right?
It's something that you do sometimes, which is admirable, but it's not predictable.
It's not a standard that you have that you hold to.
And that you catch yourself and, you know...
Right. Right.
Yeah, it's been very inconsistent.
And the times when...
I haven't held myself to it are...
The times when...
Most when I've needed to look at myself.
Yes, and that's of course the big clue, right?
When you find you're being very critical of others, the thing to do is to say, oops, I'm missing my own inventory, right?
I'm avoiding something in myself by focusing on the flaws of others.
That helps. Yes. That's very helpful.
Yeah, the moment that climbing the mountain looks easy, you know that you're not climbing the mountain, right?
Because that's a way...
That's helpful.
That's... Yeah, it's...
That's a way to be self-critical without being...
Without self-attacking.
That's very helpful.
If the bicycling seems easy, it's because you're coasting downhill, right?
Right. Right.
Right, right. The minute I start, that's, yeah, that's a good idea.
Excellent. I appreciate that.
You're very welcome. Now, I'm afraid that my baby, she has arisen, and I must resume the handing toys to her on the floor, which is my part-time job at the moment.
Thank you for your time and your patience with me and your generosity stuff.
I really, really appreciate it.
You're very welcome and do let me know what you think and let me know what your therapist thinks too.
I sure will. All right.
Take care, man. All right. Bye.
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