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June 7, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:56:52

1383 Sunday Show 7 June 2009

Thoughts on my novel 'The God of Atheists', feedback in relationships, and the challenge of siblings.

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	Well, thank you everybody so much for joining us.
	It is 4.08pm Sunday, June the 7th, 2009.
	Thank you everybody so, so much.
	The dozens upon dozens of people who made their way up to the primeval wastes of Mississauga.
	It was wonderful to have you up here.
	It was a really, really enjoyable...
	Well, I'd like to say barbecue, but there was no barbecue.
	I'd like to say Saturday afternoon, but it was five days.
	So, thank you so much.
	We've got a couple of the conversations ready to roll.
	They've been posted to Diamond Plus.
	I just did the one with Greg and Stress, which was the recent video on failure, the joy of failure, which if you haven't had a chance to check out, I would certainly check out just for the joys of seeing all my freckles in high definition.
	Really, that's about as beautiful a set of pointillism as you're ever going to find this side of hell itself.
	So, Thank you, everybody, again, for making the trek up.
	We look forward to hopefully doing something around Christmas, which will be excellent.
	Time to invent some of our own traditions, the shaving of each individual eyebrow, and, of course, the inevitable tooth rotations.
	So, just wanted to, for those who came up, if you were at the barbecue, or the Extendo Rama barbecue that was the sandwich around the actual sandwiches, If you had any thoughts or comments or questions or responses to what happened or suggestions for future events,
	if you'd like to sort of kick it now, just speak up now in case, just so I can, just, you know, work to improve the user slash Nistler slash guest slash adherent experience.
	Anybody? Bueller?
	Alright, they're probably still sleeping it off, so we can pack that up later.
	We have your show, as always, it is your show, so if you would like to jump in with a question or a comment or a suggestion or a criticism, now would be the time.
	And thank you so much to somebody who suggested and posted the need to do a sort of comprehensive response to criticisms of I will try to get to that this week.
	An excellent, excellent idea.
	It's nice to have them all in one place, dare I say.
	That would be universally preferable.
	I am all set for the listening.
	Go! It's your show!
	Oh, okay, okay. So sorry.
	My internet just flaked at the precise moment.
	I just want to say about the barbecue, I thought everything was great.
	The only thing That I thought that might be helpful is not having a schedule of events or anything like that, but just sort of a list of things that we can do, you know, since, I mean, I don't know Mississauga.
	I don't know that other people really know Mississauga.
	Just sort of a, you know, a list of things, you know, where they are, sort of, you know, kind of how long, minimum, just to sort of get an idea of like, okay, well, we have a couple hours, let's go do this, you know, just the group of people, smaller groups, sort of split off that way.
	That was really the only sort of feedback I had.
	And that's something that you have to do exclusively, of course.
	I'll be happy to work with you on that.
	No, I think that's a great idea.
	It really is. So, yeah, definitely noted, and we'll do that for sure.
	Christmas will be a little more organized because it'll be nice to go skiing and stuff like that, which might require some reservations ahead of time.
	But, yeah, that's definitely the way to go.
	Alright, if you would like to step up with some questions or comments, this is your show.
	I have a question about the God of Atheists.
	Maybe a topic we could talk about?
	Yeah, you're skipping out just a little bit.
	Maybe try coming closer to your mic and make sure nothing else is running on your internet.
	Just while we're waiting for him, the God of Atheists is...
	A novel that I wrote fairly before FDR, a couple of years before FDR. And I love it.
	I love it. I think it's very funny.
	I think it's well-written and a good characterization.
	And it's free. It's an audiobook available on the board as well.
	And you might want to check it out if you want.
	Just do a search in the feed. Sorry, in the board for The God of Atheists.
	And there's a feed.
	If you want to listen to the audiobook or the PDF, it's free.
	Or you can buy it from...
	Lulu, freedomainradio.lulu.com, I think, something like that.
	All right, let me just call this fellow back, and we will see how many spoilers we can come up with.
	Someone's asked if I've ever explained the name of the novel on the boards.
	I don't believe that I have, and maybe we can do that after this fellow, after I just dialed him in.
	I'm just getting his number queued up.
	Hello. Oh, hi, it's Steph.
	Hello. Hey, sorry about that.
	It's one of the joys of living in the boonies and having a satellite link.
	No problem at all. So, yeah, did you listen to the book or read it?
	I listened to it. Oh, okay.
	Okay, so tell me what you thought.
	I'm all ears. Well, yeah, first of all, I wanted to tell you, it was just an amazing reader, I guess, to listen.
	So I wanted to say thanks.
	It's a very powerful work.
	Thank you. What I was going to ask about was, I've had, it was sort of an emotional reaction.
	I had to, and I'm not really sure how I can explain it.
	It was, I've been kind of irritable, a little sleepless, and so I was wanting to talk about that.
	Maybe you could help me track it down.
	You've been irritable since you listened to it, or was it during the listening?
	During. Right, okay.
	After I finished it, it's kind of faded off.
	But while I was listening to it, it was definitely noticeable.
	Right, okay. Was it fairly soon after you started, or was it halfway through, or near the end?
	I kind of gobbled it up pretty quickly.
	I guess...
	Not at the very beginning, but shortly thereafter, and for the rest of the book.
	Right, right. But it wasn't so irritating that you didn't want to keep going, unless you were just out-and-out masochistic, which, you know, we might explore as well.
	No, no, I was loving the book.
	It was just I was, you know, just kind of snappier than usual and wasn't being the best I could be, so...
	Okay, well, I'll ask a couple of questions, if you don't mind, and then we can see if it makes any sense.
	I sound like every bad English professor on the planet, but let me ask this question anyway, and this question is, I'd like to open it to anybody else who's read or listened to the book.
	What do you think the book was about?
	What do you think the novel, The God of Atheists, was about?
	Hmm. I guess, if I had to sum it up, it'd be that the happiness equals virtue, and the reverse is also true.
	Right, okay. Is there anyone else on the call who'd like to chime in on that?
	Well, you know, you get them together for barbecue, you can't keep them quiet.
	You put them on a call, and you can't get them to talk.
	Well, yes, I mean, I think there is certainly an aspect of that.
	I mean, for me, what I was trying to capture was, and the reason it's called, somebody asked why the title is the title.
	I wanted to, and I'm not going to give anything away for those who are midway reading it, but I wanted to capture that moment in time After religion, but before philosophy.
	And I wanted to show the birth of philosophy and the challenges that it brings to our personal relationships, particularly within the family, which is why the kids who are cross-examining their society have such difficulties.
	The reason the novel is called The God of Atheists is that atheism is a negative position, right?
	To be anti-God or to be against theism.
	And I wanted to capture that moment After religious ethics had fallen away, and there's nobody in the book who has any religious sentiment whatsoever, but before philosophy is widely accepted.
	Now, of course, when I was writing the book, I had no idea FDR was down the road unless I just knew it unconsciously.
	But I also wanted to show that in the absence of subjugation to religion and in the absence of subjugation to philosophy, the curse of humanity is vanity.
	The god of atheists is themselves.
	If all you are is an atheist, but not a philosopher, then the god that you worship is your own self.
	In other words, your false self.
	And vanity is one of the things that runs through the book pretty powerfully, right?
	And particularly on the part of the older people.
	So, I'm sorry, you wanted to say something?
	No, I definitely saw that.
	It came through for me that way, too.
	Right, and I agree with you that, I mean, it was a bit of a dutiful answer that, you know, reason equals virtue equals happiness, but there's not a lot of happiness on the part of the people who are struggling to be good in this very sort of early stage of philosophy.
	It is a really tough and ugly process, and then the kids all go through that with their families.
	So, it's not...
	I don't quite show the happiness aspect of it.
	I show the struggle, and I show the vacuum that values...
	Fall into in this sort of post-Nichean God is dead universe.
	But before UPB, rational philosophy, and all the stuff that I worked on later, I wanted to catch that moment, the top of the wave before it comes crashing down with reason and evidence.
	Because the 20th century, of course, was the century of mad vanity and the substitution of human authority for God's authority, which was the secular dictatorships, such as Nazism and Communism and fascism and so on.
	And again, that's a big coat to hang on a little hook called a novel, The God of Atheists.
	But that's really what I was sort of trying to get at in the book.
	And that relationship simply cannot be satisfying if there's no truth in honesty and vulnerability and openness.
	And that for every generation, there is a very challenging moment in ethics.
	Every generation that wants to improve rather than simply reproduce the past There's a really challenging moment where you say, are my parents, is my society, are my elders, are my priests, are my politicians, are they good people?
	Not in what they say, because everybody knows how to talk virtue up a storm.
	Not in what they say, but rather in what they do.
	And struggling to find the evidence for virtue in our elders can be a real challenge at times.
	If we stop listening to their words and you start looking at their deeds, which is the perceptiveness that the kids are trying to bring to bear, On their family, that is a really huge challenge.
	So I would say if you feel some irritation, and we won't be putting that on the reviews for the book, will piss you off quite a bit, then it may be that you have some uneasiness about the ethics of those around you or possibly even yourself as far as honesty, vulnerability and openness goes.
	Does that make any sense? Yeah, and that was kind of where I was wondering about.
	Of course, I felt a lot of kinship with Terry.
	In fact, I'm pretty sure you watched my old company's closed-circuit TV cameras in order to write it.
	Right. I think, sadly, that stuff is all too similar everywhere you go.
	But, I mean, even down to...
	It was very close.
	I mean, I come from a very small town.
	My dad was ridiculously early for everything.
	I sat outside the salesman's office and heard that almost exact speeches that you gave in there.
	So he definitely tapped into that character.
	And so that was my first thought that the parallels were so close there.
	But, you know, will an ex-job really bring up that sort of emotional vulnerability?
	I didn't know.
	I would say not.
	I would say that it's not just that.
	Yeah. And do you have any kids?
	Yes, yes.
	Two young boys.
	Alright. And do you have a good relationship with them?
	I think so. We're getting better.
	And if they were to, sorry, if they were to pursue the course, the kids weren't hugely realistic from that standpoint, more metaphor, the inner child stuff, but if they were to ask you the questions that Alice and Sarah and Stephen asked of their parents, how would you experience that?
	That is a good question.
	I know that I've been trying to get a lot of feedback, and that's been a great innovation.
	That does bring up a little nervousness in me, I suppose.
	Okay, and nervousness about what?
	In what way? Oh, just things about Well, I think about their upbringing.
	I mean, the oldest one's only five, but still that's a lot of time, objectively.
	So there's things there that I would have maybe changed.
	Of course, I didn't spend as much time with them, especially when they were younger, that I've been with them now since I'm home.
	So there's questions there.
	So the regret, if I understand, that you didn't spend more time with your kids when they were younger.
	You said your oldest one is five, is that right?
	Yes. Okay, and why didn't you spend time with them when they were younger?
	I was working and spent a lot of time at the office.
	I can see that clearly now.
	I'm home full-time.
	What a difference that is.
	In terms of being there to watch things happen and help them along.
	Well, okay, but sorry, if you were spending your time at strip clubs and the racing track, then that's a little more understandable.
	But if you say, well, I spend time working, I mean, man's got to work, right?
	So it's...
	Not quite the same.
	I can't see how that would produce...
	Now, if you stayed at the office rather than go home, right, then that's another issue.
	But if you were just working, then, you know, kids got to eat, they need roofs over their head, they need dental visits, right?
	So, if you were just working, I don't see how that would necessarily cause guilt or remorse.
	That's true. I guess it's...
	I don't feel a lot of guilt around that.
	Maybe... You know, slight regret, but not for anything I've done, just because the time's not going to come again.
	Yeah, I mean, if you have to be away from your kids, you regret not being able to spend time with them, but it's nothing that you can't explain to them, either at the time or when they get older, and it's certainly nothing that you can't explain to yourself, right?
	So that's not it, right?
	Because that wouldn't cause you to feel the irritation, in my opinion.
	I think you're right. So, it's possible, right, that there's other things that you regret or something else that you regret that would cause the irritation.
	And look, I'm not trying to put you on the spot here.
	There may be nothing. You may not want to talk about it.
	And I'm certainly happy to listen, right?
	And I think I can probably help in that.
	But I certainly don't want to put you on the spot and, you know, pull it out if you like a tooth or something, right?
	But that's where I would start.
	Absolutely. No, I think you're right.
	There's definitely fertile ground there with the generations in both directions.
	Right, right. And, of course, if your eldest is five, right, I mean, that's not a bad age to sit down and, as you say, you're trying to get more feedback, which is wonderful, and just say, what could daddy do better?
	You know, what do you like about having me as a dad?
	dad, what you're not like, how could I do better?
	Yeah, that's something that I'd never considered before FDA I know, it's weird, isn't it?
	It's weird that we would not think of asking our kids that, right?
	It's bizarre, really.
	Yeah, I mean, every other relationship, right?
	You get surveys from the newspaper, right?
	Every time I try to go to a website, someone pops up and asks me what my damn opinion is, right?
	Microsoft installation programs want to keep a log so they can get feedback On how the installation went.
	But when it comes to our personal relationships with our spouses to some degree, but particularly with our children, the idea of asking for feedback is...
	It's almost incomprehensible, but surely that's where we would start, right?
	If it truly is one of the most important relationships, then it seems like that's the most important to make sure we're doing it the right way.
	Right! Because the interesting thing is that when it comes to Microsoft or a pizza place or a website, we have options, right?
	And yet with our children, they don't have options, right?
	They are our children, right?
	I mean, my daughter Isabella, she can't sit there and say, you know what, I'm going to do a 360 review.
	I'm five and a half months old now, so let's sit down and check things off.
	And she's going to be like, well...
	You know, I don't feel satisfied with the service I'm getting from you as parents, so I'm going to crawl off and get a job, right?
	So it's the very helplessness of children and the very dependence of children that should make us the most solicitous of their feedback and their opinions.
	And this is true of every relationship where we have power.
	The more power that we have in a relationship, the more we should be solicitous of feedback.
	In a marriage, on the first date, you don't have a lot of power over someone on a first date, right?
	But now, I've been married seven years, we have a very young child, we have a toddler, almost toddler, post-infant, pre-toddler, I guess, a baby.
	And Christina and I, our lives are sort of wound in together very tightly.
	And so she has a lot of power over me, And I have a lot of power over her just by the very nature of the amount, you know, invested, right?
	So dating versus marriage versus parenting, sort of like that old joke, you know, like if you owe the bank a thousand dollars and you can't pay it, you have a problem.
	If you owe the bank a hundred million dollars and you can't pay it, the bank has a problem because you have more power and so now they have the problem.
	And so in the relationships where we have the most invested, we should absolutely Ask for the most feedback and ensure that those relationships are going as well as humanly possible for the other person, right?
	Which is why I asked everyone at the barbecue and I asked it here, what do you like, what do you not like?
	It's why I'm constantly pestering people for feedback and reading the responses on the board and so on.
	Because I know people have a lot invested in this philosophical conversation.
	I know I do. And so I want to make sure it's as excellent as possible.
	But in our personal relationships, for some reason, it's just not there, right?
	As a principle or as a practice.
	Yeah, that is truly amazing.
	It would be baffling if not for psychology.
	Yeah, it is baffling if not for psychology, right.
	And unfortunately, of course, there is a principle in society, which is religion and statism, and of course, to some degree, family and parenting.
	There is a principle that the more power you have, the less feedback you need, right?
	The government does things, and it really doesn't ask for our feedback.
	It'll come and lick our ear when it's time to vote, and then it just takes off, leaving unpleasant things behind.
	But we have this idea that the more power we have, the less feedback we need.
	And of course, children who don't want to go to church, right?
	That's their feedback. I'm bored, right?
	Children in school who don't want to be there, they say, I'm bored.
	But their feedback means nothing because the parents, the priests, and the teachers, and the politicians when we're older have all the power.
	So we're used to this idea that the more power you have, the more you can just impose your will and not ask for feedback.
	And that's really... That is a real principle that needs to be broken until we can understand.
	And that's the DRO theory, right?
	Is that the more power they have over us, the more feedback they're going to need.
	Because the only way they're going to get power over us, so to speak, is because they're satisfying.
	And we have the power of voluntarism to offset their power.
	So that's sort of the idea that we're working with here on a sort of broad number of levels.
	But I think that's really important for you to focus on.
	That would be sort of the one thing that I would focus on.
	And the irritation is really great, right?
	Good for you. I mean, it's fantastic that you feel that irritation.
	It really is. Because it means that you are recognizing that something may not be as ideal as it could be when it comes to your relationships.
	And, you know, there's great fear in asking for feedback, especially if we haven't for a long time.
	But yeah, I would sit and, you know, say to your, are you married?
	Is that right? Right.
	So, sit down with your wife and say, you know, what is it like having me as a husband?
	And also, what is it like having me as a co-parent, right?
	That's a very, very important question to ask.
	And I'm, you know, I ask Christina once or twice a week, you know, how is my parenting going?
	Is there anything that you're dissatisfied about?
	Is there anything you'd like me to do more of or less of?
	Because that, of course, requires the ultimate teamwork to be effective co-parents.
	And so, I would ask, just ask about all of that.
	Get all of that feedback and then maybe...
	Ask your kids what their experience of you as a father is and what you can do better.
	I mean, I just think that there is a way to make sure that we get what we all want out of relationships, but it does require the vulnerability of asking people what they like.
	I mean, I'll just finish this up and then I'll ask a question or two if that's right with you, but this is what is so kind of unique about this, like what I do at FDR, which is that You know, professors in university or whatever they don't, teachers in colleges and schools, even private schools, you know, they're not going to the kids and saying what works best for you, right?
	They're not going to the students.
	They're not going to, like most teachers, right, in this realm, the realm of philosophy and psychology, like what works best for you.
	But one of the reasons that this business model of You hand everything out for free and beg for donations works so well is that it requires the very greatest commitment to quality on my part that can be imagined.
	Because if I don't rip off something just freaking great at least once a week or two at best, at worst, then donations will dry up.
	People will wander off and find a better communicator or a better philosopher or whatever, a better thinker.
	But because I'm so completely enslaved in a very happy way to the listeners, I'm constantly challenged to come up with the very highest quality possible and require the greatest level of feedback that can be imagined.
	And so the quality of our relationship, talker and listener or co-conversationalist in this example, comes entirely out of the extreme voluntarism of Of FDR, right?
	And so, and that's why I've said a million times, like people, oh man, you know, they're like, why does he talk so much about the family?
	It's like, I don't. Actually, I listen about the family because people bring up stuff and it's about their personal relationships.
	So I'm market driven.
	And of course, all the free market capitalists who are academics in the world find it completely bizarre that I would actually attempt to satisfy my audience.
	Why? Because, well...
	I don't have to go into that, right?
	So, but I think that's the really important thing to recognize that you can, the only way that I know of that you can have really high quality and confidence in your relationships is to continually ask for feedback and have that process of continuous improvement to take the basic principles of your average burger joint and drive-through and apply it to the most important aspects of your life.
	So, that's it for my little speech, but does that sort of make any sense?
	Yeah, it does. And I think that you've at least uncovered one kind of gap.
	Since hearing about this concept, like I said, I've talked to my kids about their experience with me.
	And I talked to my wife, of course, about how I'm as a husband.
	But I don't think I've ever asked about her experiences of me as a father, which is kind of interesting.
	So that's definitely something that goes onto my to-do list right away.
	Right, right. And for your youngest, and I can't ask Isabella whether she is happy to have me as a father or enjoys my parenting.
	But what I can do is see if she smiles and wriggles and dances in mama's lap when I come into the room.
	I can see that basic binary of, is she happy and excited when I come into the room?
	So when I pick her up in the morning, is she...
	Is she nuzzly? Is she huggy?
	So she doesn't have language yet, but I can pretty easily figure out, probably even better than if she did have language, I can very easily figure out whether I am a net positive in her life.
	Now, that doesn't mean that everything I do she loves, right?
	So she picks up something that she shouldn't pick up.
	I will gently take it from her hands and put it down and sort of say to her in a soothing voice why that she can't understand, but not, you know, yank it or anything like that.
	And when I need to... You know, put a sweater on her and she's fussing on the table.
	I can try and distract her.
	If she's got a hand in her mouth that I need to put through a sleeve, I can sort of slowly take it and talk to her and never pull and never yank and all that kind of stuff.
	So it's not like everything I do is perfectly, makes her delighted, but the, you know, the sum, right?
	We all have this We have a calculator in our minds, right?
	Which is net positive or net negative, right?
	Net good, net bad in our relationships.
	And that's really important, right?
	Whether you get the feedback or not, the feedback is accumulating one way or another.
	And so that's something I check every single day with Isabella, sometimes more than once, right?
	So if I come into the room, I will engage her with eyesight.
	I'll give her a big smile. Is she happy to see me?
	Does she want to spend time with me?
	Does she reach for me to pick her up and play with her?
	And if so, then I know that I'm at least fulfilling the basic requirements that she wants to spend time with me and is happy to spend time with me.
	So I think that's the kind of stuff you can do with kids who are younger or to whom the question might not be easy to understand.
	But that would be my suggestion for your younger kid.
	You know, just keep working on that net positive, net negative.
	How are your actions accumulating in his unconscious, right?
	Everything that we do accumulates To everyone else.
	Everything that we do accumulates to everyone else.
	This is why I hammer people sometimes so hard in this conversation about credibility and positivity.
	Just ask yourself that question.
	Am I a net positive to other people?
	Are they better off from having interacted with me?
	That doesn't mean always happy and dancing, but are they better off?
	Are they wiser? Are they smarter?
	Are they deeper? Are they richer?
	Do they have a greater appreciation of life and truth and virtue and Curiosity and empathy and vulnerability and openness and warmth and affection and love and...
	Are people simply, you know, even if it's plus one out of a million, are they plus one or minus one after they interact with me?
	Because everything that we do accumulates and in our personal relationships, to me, it's absolutely essential to make sure...
	Well, there's nothing more important than making sure that we accumulate positively in our personal relationships.
	Right? That's it. I promise. That's the end of the speech.
	Does that help at all?
	Oh, definitely. Yeah, thank you.
	And to tie back into the book, I mean, that's at the end when—I don't want to give away too much—but when the kids confront Terry about his role, that's kind of what they were saying is, hey, look at your—it was your net, the fact you're positive. Right, right.
	And towards the end, when Joanne is talking to Alder about Stephen, right, you can see there are these tiny little things in that scene.
	I was very proud of that scene, very pleased with that scene.
	I'm not going to give anything away. But there are very little things in that scene where you can see just a few final straws going on that camel's back that causes it to break.
	And it's the same thing earlier on when he's talking about the idea, Gordon's idea, when Alder is talking about Gordon's idea to Stephen, and Stephen just listens and accumulates in that speech and notes one tiny little detail that reveals the whole story.
	But the way that we accumulate is really, really important.
	We're not like water flowing through a stream.
	We don't just vanish down to the sea.
	Everything that we do sticks down You know, like burrs.
	That's a great metaphor. At least I was pleased with the metaphor where the wife of the software entrepreneur, I sort of say something like, she had accumulated injustices in her marriage the way that an elk accumulates burrs.
	And burrs are those little things that stick to elk's fur when they walk through the bush.
	And at this point in their marriage, she was much more burr than elk, right?
	So she'd accumulated so many more injustices in the marriage that they completely dwarfed her natural personality.
	And those little burrs, this is a good metaphor for me at least, because that's what happens is that, you know, we're either helping people or we're harming people.
	We're either contributing or we're exploiting, for the most part.
	And this goes down to even little interactions, right?
	So, I mean, I'll try and make a joke with a waiter.
	You know, if something strikes me as funny or whatever, and I'll be warm, and if the waiter gets really good service, I'll thank the waiter for the service.
	Just because we very rarely get that kind of feedback.
	Hi, Fidams! He's in here.
	We very rarely get that kind of feedback in life.
	And I think it's really, really important to try and get that feedback, to try and give that feedback to people so that we...
	Come on the plus side of that ledger.
	And the plus can be criticism, too.
	The honest feedback of criticizing someone, that can also be the case.
	So I think it's really, really important to be conscious of the degree that everything that we do...
	I mean, I'm very conscious of that.
	Everything that I do sticks in people's minds for better or for worse.
	And that doesn't make me paranoid, right?
	Wait, sorry. Who was watching me?
	Was that you? Somebody's crawling up my leg!
	Oh, sorry. But that doesn't make me paranoid, but it does mean that I'm conscious of that basic reality.
	But everything I do sticks into the flypaper of the unconscious irrevocably.
	And it can take a long time.
	If we're sort of plus one, minus 1.1, it can take a long time for the relationship to crumble.
	But, you know, it takes a long time to get lung cancer, right?
	Each little cigarette. But the important thing is to just try and be, to get as much positive stuff into your relationships and be a source of pleasure, joy, and wisdom for other people.
	That is the only way that I know of to guarantee great relationships in your life.
	Did I say that was my last speech?
	Oh, it's so hard to say.
	I can't believe you made me do another speech.
	Just kidding. Is there anything else you wanted to add about that?
	I'm sorry. I was pretty conscious of the fact that you didn't really want to talk about the details and I can obviously completely respect that.
	So that's why I gave you a little bit more information than asking questions.
	Is that still the way that you feel?
	Like you want to talk this over with your family before rambling about it on a podcast?
	And maybe so.
	And Yeah, it'd be useful for me to work out some of those relationships and see where it might be coming from.
	It might be from the old job, but I think you're right.
	There's a good chance that there's something else there, too.
	I'm sorry, could you just say that last part again?
	That it That it might be from the old job, but I think that you're right that there's a good chance that it might be from something more important.
	Right. And, I mean, if you want to talk privately or anything like that about that, just let me know, because it's a very, very important conversation to have.
	And if there's anything I can do to clarify, I would be very happy to.
	Well, thank you very much. All right.
	All right, so that's good.
	It was nice to get some feedback.
	Christina came in, this fellow read The God of Atheists and found it annoying.
	Annoying. Yeah, yeah.
	So... Yeah, he found it creepy how well I imitated a rich woman.
	They just don't realize I'm your bitch, right?
	So it's tough for people to really understand that.
	All right. So I am a lady who lunches.
	Well, thank you very much.
	Like I said, the book was great.
	I'm going to have to get a paper version.
	Yeah, well, I appreciate that. If you think it's annoying for you, just imagine how annoying it was for the people My agent submitted it to who said, this is wonderful.
	This is some of the best writing I've ever read.
	This is incredible. I'm never going to publish it.
	Because I think a lot of people got that level of irritation and got the whiff of voluntarism within the family, which, as we know, spooks people an enormous amount.
	And so you're not alone in feeling that irritation.
	In fact, if fewer people had felt that irritation, A, I would never have done FDR because I'd be a novelist, and B, We wouldn't need FDR because the concept wouldn't be so creepy to people.
	Or scary. All right.
	Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that.
	It was an excellent, excellent observation.
	I can ring a compliment out of just about anything.
	That's really... I think that's the message you want to get.
	You're bigs irritating. Oh, yeah.
	Well, that's because it's too deep for you, man.
	I can ring a compliment out of anything.
	You know, if somebody slaps me in the face, I just assume...
	That they think I need an exfoliant so that I can really get something positive out of just about every negative you could imagine.
	So, alright.
	If we would like to move on to the next comments and question, Shwitams, do you have anything that you would like to add to this conversation at this time?
	Do you? Do you, Shwitams?
	Oh, do we want to talk about that?
	Anybody?
	Please, Raspberry for us.
	No, she's pretty quiet. She's pretty quiet today.
	All right. Well, if people don't have questions, and just interrupt me if we do, we made a parenting decision recently.
	Isabella is, and those who met her, I think, during the barbecue can attest to this, a completely wonderful baby during the day.
	She is calm and good-natured and affectionate and so on.
	But during the night...
	She is like Freddie Mercury on a three-day bender in Munich.
	She is basically a cocaine beast.
	She wakes up four to five to six times a night and significantly wakes up.
	Wow, rubbing your eyes again.
	Significantly wakes up.
	And that has been the greatest challenge of her parenting.
	I mean, during the day, she's a delight to parent.
	And during the night, she is a real challenge.
	And so we tried a little while back with the help of a sleep doula to help her to fall asleep and stay asleep because what happens is she gets stimulated by something at night, either a dream or something like that, and she lacks the ability to soothe herself back to sleep.
	And everyone that we've talked to and all the books that we've read and a doctor and a sleep doula, a sleep specialist, says that sleep for some babies, you have to train them.
	You have to train them. We've tried just about everything else.
	We've tried feeding.
	We've tried getting her up to play if she's restless.
	We've tried swaddling. We've tried not swaddling.
	We've tried shushing.
	We've tried walking.
	We've tried rocking.
	We've tried singing. We've tried dancing.
	We've tried just about everything.
	White noise and so on.
	And unfortunately, it just wasn't getting any better.
	So now that she's almost six months old, We read up and steeled ourself and we did...
	I hate to say it because we really didn't want to do it, but we did.
	We did the cry it out. And cry it out, of course, referring much more to the parents than to the baby.
	Yes, we did today.
	She's all smiles. And yeah, the cry it out is basically once they're six months or almost six months, you put them down to sleep and they cry and then they sleep.
	And that's what we did today.
	And we've tried it twice before without success.
	And today she did 45 minutes, 50 minutes, 50 minutes of crying, not continual and certainly not screaming.
	But, you know, she was definitely not happy.
	It was much woe.
	And then she fell asleep.
	Yeah, she also did a Houdini breakout of a very tight swaddle.
	We use what is the patently known method of the baby burrito, which is you really sort of wrap them tightly.
	And we do that because when she's not swaddled, she'll sort of wake herself up with her arms moving and so on, right?
	The alien tentacles come and wake her up, don't they?
	Yeah, so then she fell asleep and slept for an hour and a half, woke up very happy with lots of smiles, and we did it again this afternoon.
	And it was not 5-0 minutes, it was 12 minutes, which is probably the four less.
	So that's very good.
	Yes, wouldn't it be that she's a very quick learner?
	Clever girl. So, yeah, so we are sad to have come to it, but after six months of wretched sleep, and again, the wretched sleep is almost all on Christina's side.
	I tried taking Isabella, was it Friday night?
	Yes, indeed. Yeah, and I got precisely two hours of sleep, and it was pretty wretched.
	And it's also not good for Isabella to not get Uh, quality sleep.
	So we also consulted with, uh, well, I consulted, we, we took a, uh, a friend of mine out.
	She's actually still working at the, uh, the company that I co-founded back in the nineties, which is still running and chugging.
	And, uh, she's got three kids and, uh, she's a good mom.
	And, uh, she said, yeah, you know, you have to, it's, uh, yeah, you have to, it's, you know, for the kids who, who don't get it.
	And, you know, some do, but, um, that is, uh, She really suggested it, and she sent us a follow-up email and so on.
	And so, so far, it has been.
	It's not at all seems to be problematic for her.
	She is as sunny and happy as ever.
	And she ate an entire bowl of cereal today?
	Yeah. Really? Yeah, the whole bowl.
	Wow. Well, you know what she needs that for.
	The stories of up all the tears.
	Wow, she ate an entire bowl of cereal.
	That's fantastic. Of course, we feed her nothing but frosted flakes and cocaine, so we can't figure out why there are any sleep issues.
	But yeah, so that's fantastic and entire.
	And did she spit up at all?
	Did you spit up? No, because daddy wasn't wearing something nice.
	There's really no point. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that.
	So I hope at some point right now I sleep in the spare room with old books and an ironing board.
	So basically, I'm a steamer trunk that your grandfather left behind.
	That's sort of where I'm at. And I hope, of course, to be able to slither back into the bedroom and resume my side of the bed, which seems to have recovered from me lying on it to the point where it's no longer U-shaped, like an old horse.
	But she's still sleeping in our room, and for the next couple of nights it certainly might be a bit of a challenge, but we really do need to get her on some kind of schedule where she can get some rest at night.
	And we can, of course, as well, because it's really hard to really enjoy family life when you're all tired.
	Anyway, I just wanted to sort of mention that, since people didn't have a lot of questions, to keep y'all updated.
	Oh yeah, Christina had some things she wanted to say about the barbecue.
	Can you take the mic? Just for a sec, yeah.
	I'm sure you guys, I wasn't here for the introduction, I was downstairs feeding Isabella, and I just wanted to say to everybody who came out to the barbecue that we were very pleased to meet everybody and to see Such a wonderful turnout, and we were honored to have everybody up here.
	We are planning a shindig at Christmas, around Christmas, either around Isabella's birthday, which is the 19th, or right at Christmas, but in and around mid to late December.
	And we would love to see all of you and more people come.
	And it is our honor and our pleasure to have everybody come up here so that we can meet and greet and share a meal and have some good fun.
	We can't guarantee that it will be quite likely that it will be a white Christmas.
	And if you haven't had a white Christmas, in other words, if you live where it's sunny, then you really should have a white Christmas at least once in your life.
	And a white Christmas with a baby is fantastic.
	Unfortunately, I cannot find the bottoms for my Santa suit, but that shouldn't be a problem for anyone.
	It will contribute to the white Christmas, exactly.
	Hey, wait a minute. She's turned on me.
	I knew it. Seven years she's turned.
	Remember all that power thing I was talking about before?
	Oh, yes. Thank you so much to those who posted the photos from the barbecue.
	They were really cool to see. And thank you so much again to Richard for taking the videos and posting them as well.
	They were great. I haven't had a chance to look at all of them, but thank you.
	Someone asked how long until I gained certainty about my brother.
	It was a long time.
	It was certainly after Christina and I were married.
	He was at our wedding and it was It was far down the road, years and years after my mother, for sure.
	Sibling stuff is...
	Because with sibling, there's the co-victimization of both having been children, if you're in that difficult environment, of having been in that difficult environment together.
	So there's a kind of natural yearning for affinity and the witnessing of crimes from somebody who was also a victim.
	So there's that aspect of it, and it's complicated.
	Hello? Hello.
	Hi. Thank you for taking my call.
	I was just begging for a call, so no, it's mine.
	Thank you for speaking up. Talk to me, people.
	Please call me. Call me.
	You know, it's like I felt like I was in that movie.
	you know sometimes your listeners just aren't that into you you know well yeah well I wanted to get your input or your own perspective I'm about a year out of the DFU. Wow, I can't believe it's that far out.
	But it's just recently that I've been getting contacted by my brother.
	And I've been opening the letters up and thinking I can handle it, but I'm, you know, discovering the real thing is why I'm opening them.
	And I think it's exactly that.
	It's the empathy that we feel for the victims that were in the situations with us.
	But I'm trying...
	I'm trying to kill empathy for him because he was an abuser as well.
	Sorry, you say he is an abuser as well, is that what you said?
	Yeah. Okay, go on.
	I sometimes don't see it that way.
	I... I see it like, of course he doesn't know better than to be an abuser.
	That's quite a conclusion, right?
	It is. I mean, I'm not 100% supportive of that.
	Just a note for people who are listening.
	The moment someone says, of course, Usually the next statement is that which they have the most doubt about.
	Just wanted to mention that because I noticed that within myself as well.
	As soon as someone says, well, of course, blah, blah, blah, blah, the next statement they're completely uncertain about.
	And that's why they use the phrase, of course.
	And I mean that with all affection, right?
	But there's no way I think that you can be certain about that because that is a pretty big conclusion to come to.
	Right. I think I say that because I looked at myself as An abuser of sorts for a while and a victim at the same time.
	I also had a sister who refused to speak with me for years, but I think that was more along the lines of an issue of brainwashing from other family members.
	Sorry, that's another conclusion, right?
	Well, we were children and...
	No, but brainwashing is a very, very strong phrase, right?
	Brainwashing technically means, you know, isolation and torture and sleep deprivation and that kind of stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	And the strength of the word that you used relative to, you know, other people have tried to convince her or whatever, indicates again that you're probably not very certain about her decision capacities or what decisions she made.
	Because otherwise you wouldn't need to use a stronger term, if that makes sense.
	Right.
	That term was not...
	I'm sorry, could you just...
	Sorry, could you just say that again? That's not my term, anyway.
	You know, a long time ago you and I did a call and you kept stopping me every time I went into quote-unquote story time.
	And they were all phrases that I had picked up from my parents.
	Right, right. I still have that, and I still have the image of my brother as a victim.
	Absolutely, because of course you were there when he was.
	Yeah. I always saw him as my surrogate child.
	I mean, that was an obligation put on me.
	But what I find interesting is a friend pointed out to me today that I perhaps looked at my brother like an object to project the empathy I wanted to feel for myself.
	Right. Yeah, no, that makes sense.
	And also, to a degree, to your sister, right?
	Because if they're not responsible for the negative things they've done as an adult, then, of course, logically, you would have to hold yourself not responsible for the negative things that you've done as an adult.
	But that's not how you feel about yourself, right?
	Oh, right. Right, because I'm down with UPB, as you know, right?
	So if people come to me and say, well, you know, my sister was brainwashed and my brother has no choice about his victimizing others, right?
	Then I'd say, okay, well, then you never self-criticize, right?
	You don't feel that you've ever done anything wrong because you give this carte blanche to other people, right?
	But that's not the case, right?
	Definitely not. Right, so the zeal to forgive others is...
	It's a complicated phenomenon, and it might be really good to do a podcast on it, but it's certainly not something that is empirically or ethically or universally derived or valid.
	It's not a moral principle, because the people who most apply it never apply it to themselves, right?
	And therefore, it's not universal. Right.
	Do you think... Perhaps since I'm approaching absolute certainty with my own empathy.
	Well, I think I've had it for a while.
	The empathy for myself as a child.
	The abused child.
	Do you think I may have some ambivalence about that which then lets me latch onto others that I once saw as victims and not responsible for their abuses?
	Well, I mean, this is a fantastic question, and thank you so much for bringing it up.
	And obviously, there's nothing conclusive I can give you with regards to your family, but I can certainly talk about some of the philosophical principles that would be involved to clarify that.
	Would that be of help, do you think?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Right, because before we can do the emotional work, we do need to get moral clarity on the situations, and then we can do the emotional work.
	The emotional work does not give people moral clarity, but moral clarity can hugely accelerate The emotional work.
	Oh, yeah. I think that's because I think that is exactly why years of therapy did nothing for me prior to moral clarity and philosophy.
	Right, right. Because without the principles, the emotions go around in circles because there's too much ambivalence.
	And the principles are what get us out of the death spiral of ambivalence, right?
	You cut out there.
	Sorry, I was just saying that philosophy gets us out of the death spiral of ambivalence, right?
	Because you say, with regards to your brother, well, I remember him being a victim and I feel sympathy.
	But now I think of him being a victimizer and I feel angry.
	But then I remember him as a victim and I feel sympathy.
	But then you just go round and round, right?
	Absolutely. Right, and we all do, but that psychology without philosophy is not something that breaks us out of stuff, because it remains subjective, right?
	So we have our emotional experience, and our emotional experience is, as you say, there's love and affection, and there's hatred and fear, right?
	I mean, if we've seen someone go from victim to abuser, there is sympathy, and there is...
	Sympathy for what they suffered, but not sympathy for what they inflict.
	And we can't find a way out of that maze using psychology alone, because all of those feelings are part of the ecosystem and very strong, and which is valid and which is not, right?
	Which reflects truth or not.
	I found it's impossible to unravel without philosophy, right?
	Right. It's interesting that you say that as well, because I think you're right on target lately.
	And I find in moments when I am thinking about my brother in a sentimental way or in a longing, kind of a yearning to speak with him, That's when I'm feeling a lack of philosophy.
	Like, I've put a mask of my old self on temporarily.
	Like, my philosopher is gone.
	Right, right, right.
	No, that makes sense.
	Well, and the other – so there's been a couple of questions about the relationship between philosophy and psychology.
	Of course, it's a huge topic, so I'll just touch on it briefly here, and then we'll go on.
	I haven't forgotten about your sibling.
	We'll go on with that. But the problem with psychology alone is that – sorry, one sec – Sorry, I'm just ordering a drink.
	The problem with psychology alone is that using psychology alone, it is very hard for us to differentiate our true feelings from other people's needs.
	So you feel sympathy for your brother, of course, because you knew him as a child and knew what he suffered.
	And if he has become a bad guy, and I use the term very loosely here, but just for the sake of brevity, if he's become an abuser as an adult, then he is going to really be invested in you continuing to see him as a victim without choice, right? Hello?
	Yes. Sorry.
	I wasn't demanding agreement.
	I just wasn't sure if you were still there.
	Okay. Right? So it's really...
	Using psychology alone, at least for me, it was not possible to get moral clarity, which is to say fundamentally clarity about the future, right?
	Because emotions are all about the past, and philosophy and ethics are all about the future, and you just can't break free of the past using psychology alone.
	So... You know, one typical thing that can occur in families, right, is that you've got three siblings, right, and then the oldest one is a conformist, the youngest one is a shit disturber, and the middle one is the peacemaker, right?
	And so the older one sides with the parents, usually, and the younger one fights with the parents, and then the middle child tries to make peace between everyone, right?
	And let's say that you're the youngest kid.
	I mean, it's all stereotypical, but, you know, let's just go with the stereotypes.
	If you're the youngest kid, then you're going to want to fight and sort of carve off a separate or newer identity to authenticate, and you have less to gain from conformity with the family.
	But your parents want you to conform, and so does the elder sibling, and the middle sibling is going to feel a lot of anxiety when you bring up something that is conflictual and something where there's conflict.
	And so as the younger sibling, you're going to feel a desire to rebel, but you will also have within yourself a desire to not bring these topics up.
	Why? Because it will bring anxiety to your middle sibling, who is the peacemaker and wants to avoid conflict as much as possible.
	So you're going to have a desire to bring up stuff that may cause conflict, but you're also going to have a desire not to because that's the desire of your middle sibling.
	So separating our own desires from the desires that other people have, It's really tough, and I don't find that psychology can do that.
	Only UPB.
	Only UPB can do that.
	And so to me, that's why we need to bring philosophy in to break out of the self-referential circle of psychology.
	Does that make any sense, or is that way too abstract?
	I'm not saying does it help you with your brother, but does it sort of make sense as a possible theory?
	Hello?
	Oh, do we lose her?
	Oh, what a tragedy.
	Let's see. Hello?
	Can you hear me? Are you there?
	I am. I'm so sorry.
	I was just going over kind of, you didn't hear me, but I was replying.
	Oh, good. Good to know.
	If I had heard you, what would I have heard?
	Well, you would have heard that my family shifted a lot.
	There were new family members coming and going due to marriages.
	So I played youngest, middle, and oldest at different times.
	And my sister did the same and my brother did the same.
	And I just find it really interesting and I can definitely apply that...
	Those characteristics to all phases of my childhood and to those of my siblings.
	So I think that's really a powerful characteristics of each child's, you know, in their rank.
	I'm interested in maybe having a conversation with you about that more, about the interworkings of the ranks of siblings.
	Yeah, I mean, I read a book when I was much, much younger, I mean, what, 20 years ago, about the power of birth order in personality, and I'll see if I can dig it up and whatever.
	But yeah, we can talk about that.
	Do you mind if we just keep plowing on with your brother?
	Yeah, not at all. Actually, yeah, no, I don't mind.
	If you had anything more to say about it, that would be great, but...
	Okay, well, this is all going to be really broad generalizations.
	So, you know, it's pinch of salt time, but I still think that there's value in it.
	So, yeah, I'm going to make that caveat.
	I'm not going to do 12 million caveats of conversation because I find that is annoying to listen to afterwards.
	So, I'm not going to do that.
	I've just put the caveats up front.
	This is all just theory and blah, blah, blah, right?
	Every abuser was a victim.
	Every abuser was at some point.
	A victim. I think we can all accept that as a good starting point, right?
	Yeah. Now, if a sibling becomes an abuser, the only difference between the sibling and the parent is we saw the sibling when the sibling was a victim, and we never saw the parent when the parent was a victim, right?
	Well, yeah. There's no difference other than, and it's a significant difference, right?
	But the only reason we're able to gain clarity with our parents before we gain clarity with our siblings is that we never saw our parents as victims, but we saw our siblings as victims, right?
	Right. But that's the only difference.
	Now, if our parents are morally responsible, And again, I'm just talking about bad parents here, but if our parents are morally responsible for victimizing, then our siblings as adults are equally morally responsible for victimizing.
	The fact that we saw them as victims is fundamentally irrelevant.
	It's emotionally relevant, but philosophically irrelevant, because we know for sure that the same damn thing happened with our parents, and yet we find it easier to come to moral clarity regarding parents than siblings, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	It just, it feels like a mystical kind of empathy.
	Like, for a parent, it's like, oh, I assume the worst happened to this parent.
	I mean, especially for my parent, who I had to, she invoked empathy on all sorts of levels, crazy levels.
	With her children, but with my brother, it's kind of like black and white factual.
	Sorry, it's black and white what?
	It's almost like the facts.
	Like, I know them as facts.
	No, sorry, know what as facts?
	His experiences.
	Yes, you were there.
	And you experienced, like, you guys were in the same trench being shelled with the same artillery, right?
	Yeah, and I mean, I think since I'm older, I feel responsible for not protecting him, but I also feel like I could be his empathetic witness, you know, his...
	I mean, those are just...
	I believe that's irrational at this point.
	No, no, but it's a huge need.
	It's a huge desire. It's a huge desire.
	I mean... Again, sorry, I shouldn't say.
	It's been a huge desire for me, right?
	I mean, I, for many years, had these visions, vivid, tangible visions, of pressing my forehead against my brother's forehead, and we would remember the past, and we would weep, right, about what we endured.
	Because we were, you know, we were in the same trenches.
	We were being... Hit with the same shells.
	And we clung together sometimes back then, but that never happened for us as adults.
	We could never put our foreheads together and weep about the years of loss and fear and pain and anger and terror that we experienced.
	We could never be brothers in arms that way.
	But my need for that was huge, right?
	Because we've got, society is built, it seems, fundamentally on rejecting the reality of child abuse.
	And for me, it's like if the person who was there rejects it, then I have no hope of empathy from anyone.
	Does that ring true for you at all?
	Yes. I'm really emotional right now because I feel empathetic toward your situation as well.
	Sure. Right now I just, I see him like...
	I consider how both of his parents are completely insane.
	He's only my half-brother, and...
	I just, I know the types of addictions both of them have, and...
	I just...
	My one hope for him was to never fall into an addiction.
	I'm just so scared that he will.
	He will fall into an addiction?
	Is that what you said? Yeah, yeah.
	I mean, he already has, like, an addiction to relationships and women.
	And he's a master manipulator.
	It's so very hopeless to change people, I know.
	But...
	I just don't know how long this is going to last.
	These feelings.
	And I wish they would go away.
	Sorry, which feelings?
	I wish they would go away.
	Sorry, which feelings? Feelings of worry and anxiety of him not succeeding and of him living in In depression.
	And just suffering, basically suffering.
	Right. And obviously you don't want him to suffer, obviously, right?
	I mean, you do care about him.
	Yeah. Yes, it just...
	I just ask myself, why the hell do I even feel these things?
	He didn't...
	He didn't feel that way.
	I don't think he ever felt these things for me.
	You know? In my defu, it was more of an insult to him rather than curiosity.
	I never got any curiosity.
	Well, what happened after you took a break from your parents?
	What happened from his side?
	From his side?
	Did he call?
	Did he email? Did he ask what was going on?
	Did he express any sympathy? Did he have any curiosity?
	He emailed me a few times.
	Really harsh stuff.
	He went into FDR chat room a couple times.
	He was banned for basically stalking me.
	And he was just very offensive.
	He had a very offensive attitude.
	He even bashed FDR. He posted...
	I replied...
	I replied to an email of his and it was just questions like, why haven't you asked how I am or anything like that?
	I don't see any curiosity that you have any value in my well-being.
	And I asked him if he ever did, and then he posted that on MySpace, and it was just so offensive, and I decided not to talk to him again.
	Because?
	Because that was proof enough, I think, that he didn't care about my well-being.
	Thank you.
	He never apologized for...
	I mean, he did a lot of really mean things and mean-spirited things before I left.
	Now, he sent me a letter saying, I don't care that you don't talk to me anymore.
	I'm just going to keep telling you what my life is like.
	So he's sending me updates on his life, and I'm just, you know, that's really confusing to me.
	Why I'm not just blocking him, it's...
	Okay, well, whenever we're indecisive about things, then it's usually because we have a best-case scenario or an ideal outcome that we're holding out for, right?
	And if that's not conscious, then you're going to stay stuck, right?
	So my ideal outcome, as I mentioned with my brother earlier, right?
	So we have an ideal outcome that we're holding out for, right?
	Like, we only stay at the bus stop because we think a bus is coming, right?
	Yeah. If someone comes along and says, the bus stopped running here years ago, then we'll stop waiting at the bus stop because the best case scenario called we'll get on a bus isn't coming, right?
	Right. So there's a bus down the road that you think is coming or might be coming that's keeping you at this bus stop, right?
	So what is the best case scenario?
	What would be ideal for you with regards to your brother?
	What would be the best thing that could possibly happen?
	Best thing that could possibly happen is he opens up all the books that you sent him last year, reads them, starts asking himself why he wasn't more empathetic to himself and to me.
	You know, basically adopting truth and then changing his life and getting rid of our disgusting parents.
	And then what?
	And then be the brother that I want him to be.
	I don't know. Just...
	Right, but what would that mean?
	To be the brother that you want him to be, what would that mean?
	What would actually happen? What would he do?
	What would you do together? What would actually happen?
	He would apologize to me.
	He would talk to me about our history.
	He would talk to me about our childhood.
	He would want to understand more about the things I did.
	And apologize for not believing me when I told him that his father was an abuser.
	Right.
	So he would validate the decisions that you've made, right?
	Thank you.
	Right, right.
	Now, I'm going to run you through a quick exercise here that's going to seem kind of weird.
	But, you know, trust me if you can.
	There's nothing weird about it.
	But I'm going to give you an exercise that I sometimes use when it really gets stuck.
	And this is really useful for other people, I think.
	Now, what's the most money that you could conceivably scrape together by a couple of days from now?
	None. Well, you know, if you went into debt, you borrowed, you credit carded, you sold blood, you know, whatever, like $5,000, $1,000, $500, how much money could you conceivably scrape together just for a day?
	I would say $400.
	Okay, $400, right?
	So, let me ask you this.
	Let's say that we're both betting people.
	We like to gamble. And I say, okay, you give me that $400 and I will give you all the money you can scrape together.
	You give me that $400 and I will give you back $4,000 if your brother does what you want in the next month.
	Would you take that? No.
	Alright, okay, I will give you $4,000 back.
	Just give me this $400, go into debt, whatever, right?
	Or just sign this note saying, you owe me $400 if your brother doesn't do it in the next six months, but I'll give you $4,000 if he does.
	Would you take that?
	No.
	No.
	And you understand, you keep going until you would, right?
	So I say, okay, well, you give me $400 right now, I will give you $4,000 if he does it in the next year.
	I will give you $5,000 or $10,000 if he does it in the next year.
	What ratio, what risk and reward would make it worthwhile for you where you think you might get the money?
	Oh, man. Then it feels unpredictable.
	Well, it is unpredictable.
	That's why it's called gambling, right?
	But how much would I have to offer you over what time period for you to give me $400 right now?
	I wouldn't be able to give that up.
	And it's interesting because $400 is a lot of money for somebody who defood.
	Oh, I know. I hear you.
	It is a lot of money. It is a lot of money, right?
	But if you could get it back in a month, $4,000, you'd find a way to make it happen, right?
	Right. I mean, I would, in order to do that, I would be sending, I would have to send podcasts to him.
	I would have to talk to him a lot.
	Oh, you could do, to take this deal, you could do anything you wanted, but he would have to come around and he would have to apologize to you and he would have to stop doing the bad things that he's doing and he would have to accept the past and he would have to get into therapy.
	He would have to do all the stuff.
	That you're doing to heal your soul for you to get the money back.
	And you can do anything you want.
	You can drive over there. You can move in with him.
	Whatever you want. But he would have to do it for you to get the money.
	And you couldn't bribe him. Yeah.
	Well, that changes everything.
	So how much money, like what would it take for you to give up the $400?
	Would it have to be $40,000 in a year?
	Like I'll give you $40,000 if your brother turns around in a year, you just give me $400 now.
	Would you take that deal?
	Maybe two years ago I would, but not now.
	I... Okay, but your gut says not to take the deal right now, right?
	Yeah, because I got kind of sick when you said that.
	I bet you did. I bet you did.
	And this is why I say everybody knows everything.
	You know already what the odds are, right?
	Right. So $400 versus $40,000 is what, a tenth of 1%?
	I don't know. So you wouldn't even go with a 99.9% of getting a thousand times the money over a year.
	This is how little chance you think it has of occurring.
	I'll tell you that he is in therapy and even that doesn't help me.
	Want to take that kind of a deal.
	Alright. Now, let me adjust this slightly and say that you can't do anything you want.
	You can only do what you've been doing for the past three months.
	In order to get this money, you can only do, over the next year or two, what you have been doing over the past three months, right?
	What that means is not speak with him and not...
	Yeah, just cross your fingers and wait, right?
	Yeah, and that also makes me sick.
	Right, because the odds go down even more, right?
	Because you're not doing anything to bring it about, right?
	And we judge our beliefs by our actions.
	Not by our desires, not by our fantasies, not by our preferences, not by the alternate universe we wish we lived in.
	We judge what we truly believe by our actions, not by our professed beliefs, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So if you want to know whether you have any hope, you look at what you're doing, not what you want or what you need, right?
	I mean, if you're watching, again, I've used this metaphor before, if you're watching some ER show, some medical show, some surgical show, with the sound turned off, right?
	and you see the doctors pulling out the defibrillator and thumping the chest and staring worriedly at the machine that goes ping, and you can't hear what they're saying, do you think that they have hope that the patient might live?
	No.
	I'm sorry?
	Well, not if they don't show the heart rate.
	Well, no, but if they're still struggling to save the patient, do they have at least some hope that the patient might live?
	Oh, yeah, if they're struggling, yeah.
	Right, whereas if you see the sheet going up over the patient and all the doctors shuffling out of the room, do you think that they have hope that the patient will live?
	Yeah, that touches me because that is the thing that I fear the most, that if I do not choose to speak with him, then he'll pull the cover up over himself.
	But you're already not speaking with him.
	Right? So we're watching a silent movie called Your Hope for Your Brother.
	Right? And we're not seeing you take any steps.
	Like we're seeing the doctors shuffle out of the ER and they've pulled the cover up over the patient.
	We know that they don't have any hope that the patient is going to live because they've already pronounced the patient dead, right?
	And they're leaving the room.
	So empirically, you don't have hope of this change.
	Empirically, right? Empirically, right?
	Again, we just go with the evidence, right?
	Yeah. And I can tell you why I think you don't have hope.
	And this is where the moral clarity comes in, I think.
	And then, again, you can tell me if it makes any sense.
	Right. Do you think that there's a better resource, and let's just say a better free resource, out there for self-knowledge, truth, and virtue than this philosophy conversation, this podcast?
	Absolutely not. I don't think so either, otherwise I'd be working for them, right?
	So good. You and I agree about that, which is good, right?
	So you gave him the best resource that you found to become a better person, let's say.
	Oh my god, I did, yeah.
	So what's plan B if the very best resource that's free doesn't work?
	What's plan B? What happens next?
	He gets the second best.
	I don't know.
	He gets something that's not the absolute truth.
	Well, but you kind of see if you really care about I know you do, right?
	But if someone really cares about philosophy and they think FDR is the best philosophical resource and they send FDR to someone and that someone says, Patui, I spit on this podcast.
	I spit on the big chatty forehead.
	I spit on all of this.
	It's all nonsense. There's no plan B. Like, you don't send someone a kind of shitty podcast, right, and then say, well, okay, if you don't like that one, I'm going to send you the good stuff now, right?
	Right, right.
	No, I stand biased.
	You send them the best thing you could send, the thing that works the best for you.
	Yeah. Right?
	Yeah. And he saw, he has empirical evidence that it worked for me.
	Yeah, he has empirical evidence that works for you.
	You sent him the very best thing that you could send him, and I know that if he had struggled, you would have been there to help him.
	I certainly would have been happy to help him if he'd wanted, right?
	So he had resources.
	Whatever he wanted, he had resources, and the best resources that you could come up with, and the resources that worked really well for you, right?
	Yeah. Well, in my head, now, this person in my ecosystem who keeps doing this to me is telling me, why don't you have a conversation with your brother and Steph?
	And, I mean, I could ask you for that if I really wanted to, but I don't think that's the way to go.
	No, because there's nothing you don't know already.
	And you need to learn to trust your instincts, right?
	Not me talking to your brother. Right.
	You need to trust everything that you know.
	Like, when I asked you this question about the gambling, right?
	You already knew that the odds were non-existent.
	There's no amount of risk and reward that would make you give up the $400 waiting for this change, right?
	Right, I felt sick before I... Yeah, by $400, right?
	Right. So you already know that there's no possibility of change.
	Right. I mean, that would be giving up my freedom, my security.
	That would be just as bad as going to live with him and nursing him back to health, you know?
	Yeah, for sure.
	For sure. For sure.
	So the reason that you've been hesitating to have this call is that you don't need it.
	Because you already have all the information that you need.
	Now, you have ambivalence, and look, I completely understand that, and I also completely respect that.
	Somebody who doesn't have ambivalence about sibling relationships, probably even the best ones, right, is a robot or a liar, right?
	Yeah. Now, let me tell you what it's costing you to pursue this in your own mind.
	Because if you don't get the cost, right, then if you don't get the potato is burning your hand, you won't drop it, right?
	Right. And you mean just mentally thinking about him or versus...
	Oh, no, it's more than that.
	It's more than that. It's more than just mental.
	Okay. Look, if he's not responsible, you're not responsible, right?
	If he's got nothing to be ashamed of, you have nothing to be proud of.
	Right? If he's got nothing to be ashamed of, then I have nothing to be proud of?
	That's right. Because you said at the very beginning, he's not responsible for who he's become, right?
	Right. If he's not responsible for who he's become, then you're not responsible for who you've become.
	So there was no reason for me to make my move to...
	I see what you mean.
	Then it's determinism, right?
	How so? Well, if he's got no choice, you have no choice.
	You're a human being, right?
	He's a human being.
	You can't say all human beings are warm-blooded, but he's cold-blooded, not I'm warm-blooded, but we're both human beings, right?
	Right. So if he's not responsible, then you're not responsible.
	If he's got nothing to be ashamed of, you've got nothing to be proud of.
	If he can't be judged negatively, you can't be judged positively.
	What you sacrifice is pride.
	In your accomplishments. Respect for yourself.
	Joy in the challenges that you have faced down and begun to truly master.
	Oh, man.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	And I've never had it before this.
	And I'm not going to...
	I wouldn't want to live without all of those new parts of me now.
	And I'm going to tell you, and I appreciate your emotion, but I really want to keep making my points, if you don't mind.
	Because it's all about me and making my point.
	But if you don't mind, because I think the next part is really important.
	Go ahead, I'm sorry. I'm not going to get into a single shred of specifics, because it doesn't matter.
	But you and I know, at least up until somewhat recently, I don't know if it's still going on, that you were still inviting bad men into your life, right?
	Yes. Right, so you can't judge and reject abusers, right?
	At least you couldn't up until recently.
	Again, maybe it's changed, but if it has, it's changed despite this thing with your brother.
	That's been very difficult, but...
	Right.
	Hold on just one sec, sorry.
	Right, so here's the other price that you pay.
	Thank you.
	It's that if you can't judge and reject an abuser who is a sibling, then how can you judge and reject other abusers?
	UPP happens whether we like it or not, right?
	Yeah, you're right.
	If you can't be proud in the amazing successes and progress that you've made, and it's staggeringly fantastic what you've done, in my opinion.
	If you can't be proud of that, and if you can't feel that you're better than abusers because you've made the choice to work hard and made the sacrifice of immediate gratification for a better, happier, and more rational life.
	If you still have a soft spot for the bad guys, Guess who'll keep showing up in your life?
	Because they can smell that stuff like blood in the water for a shark, right?
	Does this person have a soft spot for bad guys?
	You mean it's not psychological, right?
	You tried to get that job, and there was that creepy guy, right?
	And then there was another creepy guy to do with the theater, right?
	And there was probably others.
	Yes. But they're all coming in through the hole that's still open with your brother's shape, right?
	Yes. I'm sorry.
	I'm trying to... Don't apologize.
	The feelings are good, in my opinion.
	Because you're still reaching through this hole that's in the shape of your brother trying to grab someone.
	And they all come pouring in, right?
	Like flood. And that's what it costs you.
	It costs you romantically. It costs you sexually.
	It costs you financially.
	It costs you professionally. It's a huge cost.
	And it's not just psychological.
	For a lack of moral clarity and a lack of pride because we forgive bad people.
	He is responsible.
	And you are responsible.
	Yes. He has stuff to be ashamed of, and you have stuff to be proud of.
	Yes. And this hole in your heart where the evil people come in, it's time to close it, right?
	Yes. Your father, your husband, your brother.
	Lovers, co-workers, bosses.
	It all comes in. Like Katrina, right?
	Yeah. And don't keep throwing yourself underwater like this, right?
	The moral clarity comes from pride in the choices that you've made and the virtues that you have worked very hard and successfully to achieve.
	Right. And not to throw yourself back into the general soup Of others who've done bad things and say, well, but they were victims.
	Well, you were a victim.
	And you changed, right?
	And if you can change, they can change.
	And if they don't change, shame on them.
	And you have changed.
	Pride on you. Thank you.
	But you've got to climb out of the swamp here.
	The swamp of Waiting for bad people to become the golden gods of virtue.
	Right? You understand, this is not your desire.
	They want you to stay down there.
	They want you to stay in the swamp.
	Because if you stay in the swamp, hey, it doesn't look like a swamp, because there's a good woman here.
	But if you leave, they suddenly notice that it's a swamp, that it's an underworld, that it's a layer of hell.
	Right? Right.
	So they want you to stay.
	I'm saying, leave, climb, get to a better place.
	Get to the place that you've worked for.
	Get to the place that you deserved.
	You worked very hard to earn a paycheck called virtue.
	cash it in and stop giving the money away to people who blow it wow holy shit I mean, yeah.
	I like the first one better.
	That was good. At some point, we just have to make a decision to leave the land of our beginning behind.
	Yeah. At some point, we have to, right?
	And this is a big fucking boat anchor keeping you there, right?
	Yeah, it is.
	Well, that really got to it.
	Thank you. How are you feeling?
	I have a clenched fist for some reason.
	I feel alive.
	And I feel closer to my true experience of my last year of growth.
	And my relationship to FDR is clarified to me again.
	I have...
	I just have certainty.
	I don't...
	I think I didn't give myself enough credit for the pain I'd gone through.
	Sorry, could you just say that bit again?
	I hadn't given myself enough credit for the pain that I had gone through at the hands of my family, including my brother.
	And I need that in order to protect myself.
	You do, you do, you do.
	You do, you do, and you've got to get used to protecting yourself.
	Well, you might become a wife and a mother someday.
	Yeah. You can't have these people around your children, right?
	Right. So you've got to get ready to protect the future brood, right?
	Right. Everyone's, oh, childproof your home, right?
	Yes, childproof your home, yes.
	Put plastic into the electrical sockets, tie up the cables, put plastic Tie off the bookcases and put fences on the top of the stairs.
	Absolutely. Childproof your home.
	And that's exactly what I'm talking about, right?
	Yeah. Childproof your soul.
	Right. I... I think from that podcast where you say, would you speak to a child that way?
	When you're talking about how you speak to yourself like you're in her monologues.
	And I would never want to put a child close to some of the people I've let close to me.
	Right! But you are!
	But I won't anymore because...
	Right, right. And I hugely appreciate that, but it's important to recognize that that's what you are doing.
	Psychologically, you're throwing your inner child into a locked basement with your brother and saying, work it out if you can, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Breathe.
	I mean, there's not one person who came to the barbecue who I wouldn't feel comfortable babysitting Isabella, right?
	Because if there wasn't someone I felt safe coming into my house with my baby, they wouldn't come into my house.
	There was a lot of people.
	Yeah, and it was great!
	So there are a lot of good people out there.
	A lot of good people. Not so many that we don't still have to be a beacon of fireworks of virtue, right?
	I don't know, it's not July the 4th, but up here it's like May, I don't know, May the 24th.
	There were these fireworks, and we were showing Isabella the fireworks from our upstairs window, and we didn't know exactly where they were.
	These fireworks, they were going off in people's backyards, you know.
	You could tell roughly where they were and how far they were.
	But it was dark, and you could see these fireworks randomly going off from the occasional house within the neighborhood.
	During the day, if someone had said to me, which houses have fireworks, I'd have no way of knowing, right?
	But at night, at night, I could see all of these beautiful lights firing into the sky, right?
	That's what we have to be.
	That's what we have to be.
	Proud, virtuous, compassionate, strong, secure, protecting our inner childs.
	We have to be those people so that the fireworks of who we are are visible from space, let alone another neighborhood, right?
	Because there aren't so many good people that we don't need to shoot up flair so they can find us.
	Because everything that we do invites...
	Good or bad people into our life.
	Right? And the bad people who are in our head, who we're ambivalent about, are just big holes in the wall where anybody can come through, and usually not good people, right?
	So, yeah, there are virtuous people in the world, but they're rare enough that we have to be very good ourselves and very confident ourselves in virtue in order for them to find us.
	Yeah.
	Great.
	Glad I called it.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	And here's the last little bit that I'll give you.
	You know, if I've spent a lot of time waiting at a bus stop and I finally decide to buy a car, right?
	I want to take Mississauga Transit up here.
	It's terrible. Buses come every hour or something.
	It's wretched, right? So I'm like, fuck it.
	I'm just going to buy a car, right?
	Am I still going to keep phoning up Mississauga Transit and saying, is the bus coming?
	No. No, I've already got a car.
	I don't need to do that, right? Right.
	So... If Mississauga Transit wants my business back and wants me to give up my car, what have they got to do?
	They got to go to you and prove a case that it's going to be a lot more beneficial for you to...
	Yeah, they've got to work like shit to bring me back.
	Right. Do you see what I mean?
	Yeah. I've got a car.
	I'm not going to sit there and just stand at the bus stop.
	Yeah, they do have to work extra hard.
	Yeah. You know, if I find a loogie on my pizza, I better get some free goddamn pizzas before I go back, right?
	Yeah. They've got to work hard to bring me back.
	Yeah, and the fact that nobody was curious as to why...
	The girl left the family.
	It's because they know why, right?
	Yeah, they know why, and they know why, and they don't want to admit it, right?
	So, rather than sitting there thinking, oh, what can I do to save my brother, right?
	Say, I wonder what my brother would have to do to win me back.
	Yeah. Right?
	No, this is serious. This is a very important switch in perspective.
	It's essential. Because you've got a car called philosophy, right?
	You don't need to take the bus.
	You don't need to sit there and wait for a bus, cross your fingers and hope, right?
	Especially when there's three skeletons and 12 million cobwebs on the bus stop, right?
	And the seat. Right?
	So rather than say, oh, my brother, how can I help him?
	And it's like, you know what?
	I'm pissed off. He treated me badly.
	He'll have to work like a Turk to get me back, right?
	I don't know if Turks work hard, but, you know, kind of...
	It rhymed, I guess.
	How are they going to win me back?
	How are they going to win me back? I mean, my whole family, right?
	I mean, I'm a phone call away, right?
	And they don't want to win me back.
	And that's all I need to know.
	Thank God I didn't waste my life hanging around people who won't lift a goddamn finger to stop me from walking out the door.
	How pathetic would that have been?
	How sad would that have been?
	That's not a relationship.
	I'd be a stalker.
	Yeah.
	Like, am I worth any effort to keep around?
	Am I worth any effort to keep around?
	I know that Christina would do a hell of a lot to keep me around.
	Yeah. I know that people donate money to me to keep me around, right?
	So that I can keep doing this, right?
	I know that people will come from thousands of miles away for some bad sandwiches and good conversation.
	So I know they care, right?
	I know if the server for FDR goes down for 30 seconds or the chat room is down, I hear about it.
	People care, right?
	Can I ask you a question quickly?
	Sure. Growing up, did you experience this filter?
	Or did your brother or anybody else have this filter where it was like, I'm not allowed to show that I care.
	I care, but I'm going to go about it in a weird way because they're not going to...
	I guess what I'm trying to say is...
	When I wanted to tell my brother I loved him, I didn't think it was possible to just say, I love you.
	Like, I had to, like, do something weird.
	Oh, yeah. No, I mean, that was exactly my experience, and I'm sure the experience of most people.
	Yeah, it's like you can't hit it on the head or else you're going to chase it away.
	It's like you can't say certain things or else they're like, why do you have to say that?
	Right, they get embarrassed, right, and they feel weird, right?
	Yeah, but I've never been more proud since I became acquainted with FDR to tell a friend that I love them just because they're virtuous, you know, or to tell a friend how much I appreciate their conversation or just to be completely, like, straight up, you know?
	Yeah, but you have an instinctive true self, which means the reason that you had trouble saying I love you to your family was because...
	Oh, come on!
	Oh, you know this one! Because they were virtuous.
	Right! I couldn't love them.
	Right! Right.
	Right. Yeah, it was the same in relationships.
	Right.
	Okay.
	I mean, that's like, you know, me saying I have tough time getting the kind of center part that I want.
	Right?
	I'm sorry.
	I just can't get it to curl over the way that I want.
	Because I have a reverse mohawk, and that's my cross to bear, right?
	Because it's not possible, right?
	Right. Gotcha.
	Right. So even then, you felt hesitation.
	About saying I love you to people that you didn't and couldn't love.
	That's good. That's the instinctive true self that flowers in the face of philosophy and self-knowledge.
	Yeah. That's very cool to see from here.
	Right. Oh, boy.
	And to think you were just going to type a little question, right?
	Tell me about your brother.
	Well, I was curious how long this was going to go on for.
	Well, I mean, it's going to go on, right?
	I mean, this conversation is not going to erase everything in terms of ambivalence, but I hope it at least puts some clarity on it.
	I'm just trying to help speed it up, right?
	So it doesn't take eight years for you as it did for me, or seven years or whatever.
	But as well, what it's helping me do is to make my case stronger.
	I mean, I've been pretty isolated, so...
	I mean, not isolated.
	I do talk to people regularly.
	Really meaningful people I talk to regularly.
	I mean, like in my day-to-day stuff, I think.
	And I just started working full-time, and I've kind of been worn out, and it's like...
	I'm trying to challenge myself all the time, not very empathetic, you know, in a physical working sense.
	Right. And it is a weird perspective, right, to go from who will accept me to who will I accept, right?
	It is a weird perspective.
	For those of us who grew up as needy and lonely and dependent and wanting children, right?
	All we did was we focused on what other people needed and what we could get as scraps off that table, right?
	Yeah. Beggars can't be choosers.
	Beggars can't be choosers. And so many of us grew up beggars, right?
	Yeah, don't look a gift horse in the mouth and all that stupid crap.
	Right. And so it's a weird perspective to say rather than Who will accept me?
	To go from asking that question to, who will I accept?
	I saw that in my latest interview process in my last one, the one that I got.
	I wish you were there, man.
	You should have seen me in the interview.
	Oh, what happened? It was awesome.
	The interview guy, my new boss, he was asking me, so why should we hire you?
	And I was like, well, because I'm responsible.
	I take things seriously.
	I'm accountable. All these great things I never was able to say about myself before FDR. Right, and now you see there's one more question to ask.
	Right. Because he says, why should I hire you, right?
	The other question is, why should I accept a job offer from you?
	Why should I work for you?
	What's the benefit to me?
	I mean, other than the obvious, right?
	Right. Money.
	But I have to say, he did open up that avenue for me to ask those kinds of questions.
	And I did. Although it wasn't my initiation, you know.
	But I was able to tell them what I expected to be paid.
	And I shot a little high.
	And they even went higher because of my interview.
	Right. I mean, that's the investment in philosophy paying off in a very real sense, right?
	Right. Thank you so much for that.
	Oh, listen, I mean...
	I appreciate that, and I fully accept your thanks, but you have just been a huge inspiration for a lot of people in this conversation.
	I know that. And, you know, where you came from to where you are is fantastic.
	Thank you. I remember back at the beginning where you couldn't type because your husband was irritated.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	It seems like 12 planets away, right?
	It does. I didn't think I was even going to be able to support myself.
	Right. Right.
	And all I'm trying to offer you here is the additional gift of more self-protection, because I know that that's still something that's a struggle.
	And it's a struggle for me, right?
	It's not like I did such a great job with self-protection with the media, right?
	So it's a struggle, right?
	So I'm just trying to, you know, maybe half a step ahead in this area, trying to offer a few bits of wisdom, because that's, I think, where your challenge is, right?
	Because that's where your refu still keeps arising.
	Right. Yeah.
	That's something that I'm going to bring into therapy tomorrow.
	That's good, because there's a connection with sexuality, with these refus, and then my brother's involved in it somehow.
	And, you know, to figure out, I think there's a root there.
	Sure, I mean, there is a parallel, right?
	There's a parallel in sexuality, where instead of saying, who do I want?
	It's like, who wants me, right?
	Right. And then, oh, they want me?
	And then it's like, how can I make it?
	How can I be more appealing?
	How can I be appealing all the time?
	How can I never stop being appealing?
	Right, right. And it goes back to how can people want me without exploiting me?
	Right. How can I be desired without being used, right?
	That's a huge question, particularly for women when it comes to sexuality.
	Because women want to be sexy, they want to be attractive, they want to be wanted, right?
	Obviously, right? And men do too, right?
	We were just talking about women. But at the same time, that's not the extent, right?
	Women want to be desired, but they don't want to be used, right?
	And that, of course, is...
	That is the challenge. And it comes from, I think, being confident in your own attractiveness and then saying, well, who gets to enter these here pearly gates rather than who's interested, right?
	Right. Yeah.
	You know, are you...
	Are you strong enough to be my man, right?
	Right. Are you good enough to be my man?
	Are you good enough for me too, right?
	Because, I mean, sex for women, a million times more so for men, is an incredibly physically vulnerable experience, right?
	And that level of protection, I think, is something that women, I mean, particularly attractive women like yourself, really need to have that kind of security in sexuality without feeling like You know, you're spending your whole life either acquiescing to or pushing back the trolls who come in through these holes in the wall, right? Yeah.
	Yeah, definitely.
	The only female image, you know, I had was this very cheap kind of philandering mother And never knowing exactly why these men were coming into the home.
	I mean, never really understanding what she saw in them or what they saw in her.
	Right, and so your real mother was exposing you to bad men as a child, and your inner mother is doing it to you now as an adult, right?
	And I'm just saying, have that clarity.
	The real defu comes when we leave, not just the physical, but the psychological family behind it, right?
	Exactly. Those ghosts that you talk about.
	that's right that's right is there anything else I mean, we've covered some ground, right?
	As we usually do, you and I, when we have these talks.
	But is there anything else that you wanted to mention just now?
	Are you feeling okay? I'm feeling great.
	Yeah. That's it.
	I just want to say thank you.
	Oh, you're welcome anytime.
	I mean, you are a complete hero with this stuff.
	And knowing in particular where you came from, it's hugely great what you're doing.
	And this is, again, as I've said before, and I'll say again, this is how we save the world, right?
	It's decision by decision.
	It's clarity by clarity. And you are to be hugely commended for the work that you're doing.
	And you should be enormously proud.
	And I can't give that pride to you without giving the condemnation to your brother.
	And I think you should accept that as well.
	Yeah. So do I. Yes, most definitely.
	Thank you. Right. Well, thank you everyone so much.
	I'm not going to try and follow up with another question, but thank you so much for a fantastic call.
	Thank you for coming up with a great question.
	Sibling stuff is very powerful and well worth working out with a therapist.
	So I hope you have a great therapy session tomorrow.
	I hope you all had a wonderful week.
	Thank you everybody again so much for coming up this last weekend and we hope to see most, if not all of you, if not more of you.
	At Christmas. All the best.

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