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June 4, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:24:26
1380 Bullying Part Two - The Conversation

The listener describes his conversation with his mother about being bullied.

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Time Text
Hello? Jean-Philippe?
Hello, can you hear me? I can indeed.
How are you doing? Not too good.
I can imagine. Listen, I forgot to email you.
I do apologize that I had put...
The call is not in the general stream.
It's just in a high-level donator section.
I wanted to ask you before I put it in the general stream so we can talk about that or you can email me later.
Sorry that I forgot to email you before that.
No problem. Alright, so...
Just for those who don't know, this gentleman, we had a conversation, gosh, was it only Sunday?
Saturday, I think.
Saturday, right. And about bullying.
And I must say that thank you again so much.
I know that that was not the easiest conversation in the world.
But you did a great job.
And people have been...
so far it's the star conversation of the weekend because I think so many people have been through a similar situation and so thank you again so much for your generosity in having that conversation but But that's sort of the backstory.
And so you said that you had talked to your mother, is that right?
Yep. What happened?
It was this afternoon.
I went to talk to her without mentioning that previously.
I just said, I'm going to talk to you.
I asked her, can I talk to you about something?
And I told her that.
I asked her if she did anything about the bullying that she can remember.
And I want to I would like to correct a few things that...
What she did do that I did not mention in the last conversation is that she did talk to the other parents, to the bully's parents, and to the teachers, to the principal, and now I remember having a conversation with the principal once.
And what did I want to say?
I'm sorry. No, no, that's a good thing to mention, and that's perfectly fair, right?
We want the facts.
That's a good thing to mention, and that shows, to me at least, a good start to problem solving on the part of your mother, like good initiatives, so good for her.
Okay. And what I did say...
That wasn't a complete truth during the last conversation, and I would like to apologize for that, is that, you know, I told you that I went to a social worker and to a child psychologist, that I did go, but neither had anything to do with the bullying.
And... Oh, listen, I think, again, don't bully yourself.
You weren't lying. I mean, you did go and see one.
I mean, so be careful with those terms, right?
Because they're pretty harsh. Okay.
But sorry, so what happened?
Why did you end up going to see them?
Well, the social worker was to find out why I wasn't listening in class and still had over 95% everywhere.
No, no, really?
Yeah. Seriously. No, I'm serious.
Right. You know, I had a similar issue...
Which was that, well, they always ask, you know, what's wrong with you?
Why are you not listening?
And, of course, the last thing they'd ever want to ask is, what's wrong with our schools that you're doing so well and don't even listen?
Yeah. Anyway, and the child psychologist was to, well, I don't know if it was anything about the bullying but it certainly was because I was becoming more and more introvert and and to see if I had anything against my parents I mean another fact that I would like to mention that might be important when I was maybe eight When I was eight,
my brother got cancer.
Oh, gosh.
So, he got better, just so you know.
He's perfectly fine now.
He was four years old when he got the cancer.
So, I think, I'm not exactly sure, but the child psychologist was to see if I had anything negative remaining Any grudge against him or against my parents towards this episode.
So that's it.
Okay. That's a lot less devastating than I thought.
I thought you were going to say. Sorry, I talked to my mom.
It turns out I was the bully and I funded my university education by taking small children's lunch money.
But that wasn't the case.
So good. That's good.
Oh. But the conversation after that, the conversation with my mother did not go well at all.
I'm sorry to hear that.
I'm sorry to hear that. What happened?
She seemed to take it personally.
I was asking her, well, I told her it didn't work.
And, you know, I've been bullied for something like 10 years, didn't do anything, and Well, they tried other things.
It didn't work.
And I asked her why didn't she try changing schools?
And I told her that when I was little, I didn't feel like I was being listened to about that.
And she kind of took it personally, I think.
Well, sorry to be annoyingly precise, but what actually happened in the conversation, like what was said, and just because she took it personally as a conclusion, and of course it may be perfectly valid, but I'd rather hear what actually happened, if that's alright? Okay, well, she started defending herself, you know, she said something, you know, I did the best I could.
And then, when she saw that I did the best I could, it did not satisfy me very much as an answer.
She started saying something.
What can I say that would satisfy you?
I cannot change the past.
I haven't been perfect, but nobody's perfect.
Things like that.
Right, right. And, you know, when she asked me, what can I say?
When she asked me, what do you want me to say?
And I said, I don't know. I asked you because of that.
No, I asked. I would like to know why.
Why it didn't work?
And why did I get bullied for 10 years?
and she started crying She started crying?
Crying, yeah. She went to the bathroom.
She cried for something like 10 minutes.
When she went to bed, she said something like, nothing I'm going to say is going to satisfy you.
So, basically, she seemed...
Well, this is just what I got from that, and this is a conclusion, but this is sort of what I got from it.
Okay. It seems almost like she was reacting to you as if you were bullying her.
You know, retreating to cry, saying that you're not going to be satisfied.
She seemed like when people say, you know, what do you want me to say?
I can't change the past.
I did the best that I could. It's like they're being badgered, if that word makes sense.
Makes sense to you?
Like they're being cornered or like somebody just keeps coming at them?
Yeah, I did not think of it that way, but that's pretty good.
Well, you know, I try.
But tell me what you're feeling at the moment because you certainly seem to be feeling quite strongly.
And it makes total sense that you would be, but if you don't mind, tell me what you're feeling.
I feel sad. I did not think that it would go fantastically, this conversation that I would have to have.
I told you straight ahead that I would talk to my mother about that.
And now, do you want to keep talking about the conversation between Would you like me to ask questions?
What would your preference be? Well, I just want to add a few things that she said.
Please. She said, you think that I don't love you?
You think that I did that on purpose?
She started accusing me of that.
Right, okay.
And you can ask questions.
Go ahead.
No, no, you said you had a few more things and I really want to make sure that you get stuff off before I start asking my annoying questions.
No, I told you pretty much the whole picture.
She just cried some more and when I left the apartment, she was still crying.
I'm sorry. No, don't apologize.
Listen, you just went through an incredibly difficult conversation.
The emotions are perfectly rational, perfectly healthy, and so it's no sweat for me.
I appreciate the honesty that you're bringing to what we're talking about, so please don't apologize for it.
it's a good thing.
And is there anything that you wanted to add to Do you want me to start pestering you with questions?
You can start asking questions.
Go ahead. Okay.
Please. How did you feel during this conversation?
I mean, I get a sense of what I think you were feeling, but I certainly don't want to say.
I wanted to sort of ask, right?
So during this conversation with your mom, how were you feeling?
Well, at first I was feeling afraid.
Then I got sad.
Very sad. And I felt attacked.
And that's it, I think.
What do you think? You felt attacked.
is attacked is not really a feeling sorry okay when you felt attacked so what did you what feeling did that bring up Yeah, I was a bit angry.
Well, more than a bit.
I was angry that...
Well, I was a bit angry that she...
I would not talk about my bullying at all.
She just started making excuses or trying to explain to me the context of what happened.
I was feeling really angry about that.
Then I got sad.
Sadness. Anger at the same time.
And then I felt a bit numb.
When did you start feeling numb?
Was it when she was in the bathroom or afterwards?
Afterwards. Okay.
When she started saying to me, you know, you're saying that I don't love you.
You're saying that I did that on purpose.
Now I'm assuming, sorry, just to be fair, I'm assuming that you hadn't said any of those things, right?
No, I... I tried to, I'm not saying it was perfect, but I tried to do a bit of RTR. And, you know, I always said, I'm not accusing you.
I'm not saying that you did that on purpose.
I'm not saying that you did not did your best.
You know, she kept saying, I did the best I could.
I always said, I think, I'm not saying you didn't.
I'm just telling you how I feel and what I felt at the time.
Right. Do you think that your mother did the best that she possibly could in this conversation?
No. Because it's always kind of ironic and sad and angering to me People always say about the past, well, I did the best that I could.
But saying that about the past is just making up an excuse, right?
And it's not examining where we might have fallen short.
It's not being self-critical, it's not being honest, and it's certainly not being empathetic to the other person, because all we're doing is defending our own actions rather than being curious about other people's feelings.
So when people say, I did the best I could, they're actually not doing the best they could in the present, which means that I doubt very much That they did the best they could in the past, right?
Yeah, that's right. Does that make sense?
Yeah. Okay.
And when your mother was, you said, crying in the bathroom for about 10 minutes, how did she leave the table?
What happened? Did she just get up and rush out, or did she say something?
She said, I have to go to the bathroom.
And then I heard her crying.
Right. Now, you know, it's possible to cry silently, right?
Yeah. Right, I mean, I think we've all done it in one circumstance or another, right?
Mm-hmm. I remember being at work once, and I was going through a lot in therapy, and I listened to a song, and I just got so emotional.
It was a good boy by...
Bare naked ladies. I got so emotional, I went into the washroom, into a stall in the back, and I knew that my employees might come into the bathroom, right?
And so I was crying very hard, but totally silently, because you can always do that, right?
Mm-hmm. Right, so if your mother didn't want you to hear her crying, then you would not have heard her crying, right?
That's right.
So why did she want you to hear her crying when she told you that she was just going to the bathroom?
To pull my heartstrings.
I would say that would be a fair guess.
Your emotions would tell you that, right?
When people are manipulating us with feelings, we feel annoyance, frustration, anger.
And when people are genuinely upset or sad, we feel usually, I mean if we're healthy, we'll feel sort of compassion and sadness and empathy.
So that's why I asked what you felt when your mother was in the bus crying.
Was it like eye rolling or did you feel more sympathetic or what did you feel?
I didn't.
I remember I didn't feel...
I did not feel much sympathy for her.
What sympathy did you...
Because you're a guy who doesn't like to make absolute statements and I totally...
I understand that. But it's hard to navigate...
Does that mean you felt some sympathy, but other things?
I'm not sure, really.
I'm sorry. Another non-absolute?
No, that's totally fine.
That's totally fine. I wanted to know if you felt sympathy and anger at the same time.
That's much more complex than I felt irritation and I rolled my eyes or I felt a heaviness or whatever.
Are you saying you did feel some genuine sympathy for your mother's tears?
I think so, yeah.
I'm not saying you shouldn't have, of course.
what did you think that gave you the feeling of sympathy?
Well, I really don't like to see someone cry.
It's sad in itself.
And I remember wondering if she was crying for the moment for herself or if she was actually realizing a bit of what I had lived when I was a child.
Or if I made her realize that she made a mistake.
Okay, that's important, right?
So let's say that she went to the bathroom, she thought about it, and she was crying because she felt real sympathy for you, right?
That's a thesis, which is, you know, perfectly valid to come up with.
And how would we test it?
How would we know? If she actually started talking to me about it after that?
Well, yeah. I mean, she would come out of the bathroom and she would say, I'm sorry, you really caught me by surprise, but I was going to the bathroom and I just thought about these 10 years of bullying and it must have been terrible for you.
I'm so sorry. Please tell me more about what you think and feel about it.
So that's not, if I remember rightly, that's not what she did.
What did she do when she came out of the bathroom?
She said, no matter what I say, you'll never be satisfied.
Right. So I think...
Sorry, go on. And she said that in a very angry tone.
Right. Right.
Right. And so this would not do much to support the thesis that she was...
Connecting with her empathy for you in the bathroom, right?
No, well, I figured that out.
I'm sure you did, but this is what I mean when I say, if you feel sympathy, I mean, that's fantastic, but if you feel sympathy without justice, that's kind of a sucker's game, right?
Because it just means that people are going to want to manipulate you, right?
And I also, you know, and again, as you know, these are all just my opinions or whatever, right?
I'm very much around UPB when it comes to emotions, right?
So, I mean, I treat people the best I can the first time I meet them, and after that I'll treat them as they treat me.
And if you feel, well, my mother's crying, and I feel sympathy for someone who is suffering, right?
To me, that would be a UPB statement, right?
More or less. Or at least a universal statement.
We should feel empathy for other people's suffering.
I think that would be APA, for sure, aesthetically preferable behavior.
So two people are in the interaction.
One of whom was let down, perhaps, or at least I would say substantially, by his mother which resulted in 10 years of bullying when he was a child.
And the other person is upset because this topic is coming up.
Who do you think should be receiving the most empathy at this time?
At this time right now? No, during the conversation with your mother, right?
Because we've got one person whose childhood was largely desolated by continual, decade-long bullying, and the mother who was supposed to protect him, who is on the receiving end of this topic coming up, right?
So 10 years of childhood bullying and some discomfort over the topic coming up.
Who should be receiving the most empathy?
The child? Of course.
Yeah, you. Yeah.
Right, so this is how I sort of navigate it, and it's just my way of doing it.
It may not be perfect, but it's what I work with, and it's worked well.
That's what I always try to remember, right?
Is that if I bring a significant historical pain to someone, and they talk about how hurt they are, I won't give them a goddamn shred of sympathy.
Not a scrap.
In fact, I just... I feel contempt in those situations.
Because I'm supposed to focus on their suffering, right?
Because focusing on someone else's suffering is such a good thing.
But they're not focusing on my suffering at all.
So why should I grant them what they're not granting me?
That's like giving real money for counterfeit.
It's like giving real change for a counterfeit bill you know is fake.
Yeah. That's right.
So... I'm sorry, go ahead.
I don't feel anything like that.
Anything like what? I don't feel contempt towards my mother right now.
No, I'm not saying you should.
Please understand. I'm just saying that in my...
She certainly cannot appeal to the principle that you should have empathy for the suffering of others when she had, as far as you've told me and as far as I can see, little to no empathy for what you were bringing up, right? Yeah.
She can't claim that you should have empathy for others if she's not showing empathy for a very painful topic that you're bringing up, right?
Painful for you. Yeah.
So that's why the tears did not strike me as particularly or even remotely real.
Because this conversation was about your pain, right?
Yeah. Your loss.
Your sadness. Your fear.
Your anger. Right.
Right. But it seems to me that your mother made it about her.
Her upset.
That's completely true. Right.
Right. Now, I'm going to just talk on a little bit more, if you don't mind.
I certainly don't want to interrupt you and just yell in my ear if you want to say something.
Unless you have something that you wanted to say just now.
Go ahead. Sure.
Well, the conversation, again, all my opinion, but the conversation that you had with your mother...
Tonight, my friend, was in my opinion the exact reason you were bullied.
And actually that's why I suggested that you have this conversation.
Because I can just about guarantee you that this conversation that you just had now is not the first time that you've had it with her.
Oh, that's interesting.
And you probably don't remember the first one.
And the first one was probably the last one.
Until this one.
Okay. Because tonight you basically went to your mother and you said, I'm hurt.
I'm upset. I might even be a little angry.
And I need you to listen.
And I bet you the first time you were bullied, you went home and said almost the same thing.
Right?
You went home crying.
You went home angry.
Maybe your clothes were torn.
Maybe someone pushed you over.
Maybe somebody called you names and you were really upset.
And you went home and you needed your mother.
right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I can guarantee you that exactly the same thing happened.
In fact, it was probably worse.
I don't remember.
I really cannot remember the first time.
um Right, and I'm sure you were very, very young, probably no more than three or four years old.
I'm sure that you can't remember it.
But because you went home and you tried to lean upon your mother's kindness and warmth and curiosity and empathy, that you needed to be supported, you need for your emotions to be contained, to you need for your emotions to be contained, to be held, to be sympathized with, and to have your mother You know, leap to your defense and stop at nothing to keep you safe.
Because you went home and you had this conversation with your mother when you were that young, you ended up being bullied for 10 years.
Why? Because you had no support at home.
Quite the opposite of support.
I'm sorry, there's lots of noise in the background here.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Oh, I don't think that's from my end.
Oh, okay. If you're not talking, if you could please mute.
A child who goes home to his mother and says, Mother, I've been bullied.
Well, of course, I think I'm pretty positive that a child with a strong and secure maternal attachment doesn't get bullied in the first place, but let's say that it does happen and the child comes home The mother is very concerned and really wants to hear more about what happened and wants to know how the child feels and asks 20 different questions about what led up to the bullying and is appropriately angry on behalf of the child without overwhelming the child and just does the right stuff.
It seems impossible for me to imagine that that child would ever be bullied again.
Because he wouldn't be alone.
He wouldn't be undefended.
He wouldn't be separate. He wouldn't be solitary.
Right? He would be part of a larger familial unit and would have all of the protection that that entails.
And the bullies would not want to pick on someone like that.
They would go find some other kid.
whose mother's going to take it personally, make it about her, and he's going to end up comforting his mother when he's the one who's upset.
I mean, my way of thinking, my friend, is that all bullying begins at home.
What happens in the schoolyard is just a reflection of that.
I mean, the way that I would feel perfectly comfortable based on what you said, describing your mother's actions as bullying.
Thank you.
Tonight. Manipulative, evasive, bullying, aggressive, selfish.
You would be right.
Well, tell me what...
Again, these are all my thoughts, right?
But tell me what fits and what doesn't.
Well, as I told you, I cannot remember how it was when I was little when I first brought up the bullying.
But sure, this conversation, as I said, I felt attacked.
So, yeah, it was totally, totally bullying.
Yeah, I just get such a strong sense of Her pushing you back, pushing you away, not wanting to deal with what you experienced, not wanting to deal with what you thought, not wanting to deal with what you felt, but being so overwhelmed by what you were saying that she, you know, almost violently just, you know, pushed back and, you know, ran off and sobbed loudly and just tried all of these manipulative tricks.
You know, fogging, obfuscation, the defense called I did the best I could, the defense called, you're being a bully, you know, all of that kind of stuff, right?
But nowhere in there is, from what you said, is even one question about how you feel.
How I feel, no questions at all.
Right.
Right.
And what are you feeling now?
Thank you.
Thanks.
Sadness.
Pretty much only sadness right now.
And what's the sadness about?
I... I guess I... If my relation with my mother is not over,
at least it's seriously harmed.
Maybe... Right. But sorry, I'm going to be totally annoying here.
I've got two points to make and I just asked you what you felt and I'm interrupting.
I apologize for that. But first and foremost, I don't think that it's wise to think about the long-term relationship with your mother, because that's going to not help you to process what you feel in the moment.
Okay. Right, because the important thing is to process your feelings, to feel what you feel now and what you may have felt for many years, rather than to say, well, this means X or Y about my mother and my relationship with her, right? Because that's jumping to some forward conclusions that means if I feel this, then X, Y, and Z, right?
You know, I have my relationship where my mother is harmed or over or whatever, right?
But that's not going to help you feel what you feel.
That's almost like a scare tactic.
Okay. Right, because you say, well, I feel sad.
Like, you had a fight with your mom, but it doesn't mean you've had a breakup.
doesn't mean if that makes any sense.
So that would be my first statement The second is that, how long ago did this conversation happen?
This afternoon. And so how long has it been?
How long has it been, what do you mean?
In hours? Yeah, in hours since you had the conversation.
I left my mother's apartment at about 6 p.m.
So, almost five hours?
And have you heard from her?
No. Okay, why not?
I'm sorry? Why do you think you've not heard from her?
I'm sorry, can you hold?
I just have to take a jacket off.
One sec.
Sorry, go ahead.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
Why didn't she?
Yes, you are. Really?
Yeah, you are. But it's an important question, right?
Okay. I mean, do you think that she thought the conversation went really well and that you were satisfied and happy with it?
No, she knew it went badly.
I think anyone who would have been there would have noticed that.
Okay, so she knows that you brought something up that was very difficult and painful for you, right?
And she also knows that you did not get what you wanted out of the conversation.
In fact, you were frustrated, right?
And that, you know, would be to call someone up and say, You know, how you doing?
I'm sorry that things went badly.
This is what I think I did wrong.
And now that my, you know, I was surprised and I was, whatever, right?
To follow up, right? Yeah.
I mean, that would be reasonable behavior, right?
I can't imagine my mother doing that.
Okay, good.
So you know why she doesn't do it.
Good, because you kind of imagined it, so you know why.
Because right now she doesn't care about me.
That's a possibility.
But if you were to say right now, but there were other times than she did, then there would be other times when she would call and say, you know, I'm sorry I didn't handle that very well or whatever, right?
Okay. But she's saying that she hasn't, right?
No. No.
So there's probably another reason.
Which would be...
She's your mom, man.
I don't know. Alright, let me ask it another way, because this is a tough question, right?
This is a very tough question, so it's not surprising that it's taking a while.
In fact, if you got it really easy, it would be the wrong question to ask, right?
That would be in its conscious.
Okay. What is your mother's ideal end to this, right?
So what is the best future outcome for her from this, from what happened today?
What would be the ideal for her?
For her? Yeah.
Would it be like to have it never come up again?
What is the ideal outcome for her?
Or that you apologize?
What's the best thing for her?
I guess that for her it would be...
Well, I'm sure she thinks that for her it would be that I apologize for hurting her feelings and that we never mention it again.
Right, okay.
And on what principle would she make that case?
Like if somebody would say, why should he apologize?
She would say, why?
Because he hurt my feelings?
But of course, he was bringing up that your feelings were hurt, so that principle doesn't really work, right?
Yeah. So what would she then say about why you should apologize?
I don't know. And why does she want you to apologize?
What would that mean to her? Well, I'm not sure about the apologizing.
I'm just... I think that she would be alright with just never mentioning it again.
Which itself is a kind of apology, right?
Yeah. Okay.
And do you think that she understands that it would be very, very painful for you to either apologize or not mention it again or both?
I guess she does.
Oh, man, come on.
Oh, come on.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh because it's not funny, but that was the least convincing statement I've had in at least all conference calls I've ever had.
I guess she does, question mark?
Right? Okay, yeah.
I mean, that was a very dutiful answer, right?
Yeah, okay.
Maybe she does, right?
But, you know, if you say she does, I'm just going to need to ask for evidence, right?
Because I'm an empiricist, right?
Right. I mean, for me, if there's no evidence, right?
If there's no evidence of your mother's concern for your feelings, then you're saying, my mother has concern for my feelings the way some people say there is a God, right?
Okay. Show me the money.
Show me the evidence, right?
And that's why I asked if she'd called, right?
Because she's got to know this has been really difficult for you, right?
Yeah. Did she ask you why you were bringing it up?
No. I sort of told her that I spoke about that during my weekend in Ontario.
But... She's not a politician, is she?
No. Okay, good.
Just checking. All right. So...
So why do you think, no, let me ask this another way.
Do you think that she understands, just intellectually, that this was a difficult conversation for you that ended badly for you?
Well, I don't know.
Look, we can say I don't know about a lot of things, but we can't say it about our own mothers.
We just can't.
Because there's nothing we don't know about our own mothers.
Okay. Lots of people may remain a mystery to us, right?
I don't know what made Freddie Mercury tick, but in terms of the people who we grew up inside of, literally, and then breastfed and observed them for decades and decades, If we don't know our mothers, we don't know anyone, right? Because we're never going to get exposed to more knowledge about someone than our mothers.
Okay. Which is my long way of saying you know.
Okay. I'm sorry, what was the question again?
No problem. I was the one who went on a tangent.
But the question is, do you...
Think that your mother understands, even at an intellectual level, that this was a very difficult conversation for you that ended badly for you.
Well, she didn't tell me that.
I mean, she told me the exact...
Yes, but we'll get to the evidence in a sec.
What do you think? What do you feel?
feel?
What does your gut say?
Well, I think she knows that this wasn't easy for me, like not easy at all.
Okay, so you think that she knows it was very hard for you?
Well, she knows that I didn't get what I wanted.
No, no, sorry, what you wanted is a separate thing.
We're just looking about whether it was hard for you, and we'll get to that, but...
So your thesis, and I'm not trying to pick on you, I just want to understand, your thesis is that she does know that it's a very difficult conversation for you, or was.
Yeah. Okay, and what evidence, not what you did, but what she said and did, what evidence do you have for that thesis?
Oh. Because you can say, well, I was crying, but that's what you were doing, right?
What was she doing that would support that thesis?
No. Well, you asked me for my gut feeling, but I don't think that was the right one.
Well, I don't think it was correct.
Sorry, just a sec, because I asked you a question, which is fine, I do it too.
Do you mean that there was, or was there evidence that we missed, or was there no evidence that she understood that it was a really difficult conversation for you?
Well, she told me that she thinks I want to cut bridges with her and with the family.
So I don't...
Okay, go on.
I don't think she...
At least she didn't tell me, you know, this is hard for both of us or anything like that.
She... Yeah, she literally...
It went like I was attacking her, so it was hard for her, but I'm not sure she even stopped to think about whether or not it was hard for me.
Okay, so, and look, that can happen, right?
We all can lose our empathy antennae sometimes.
That's why I asked if she called sense, right, to say, shit, you know, I really missed the ball on that one, right?
okay so there's not and sorry just by the by right so So parents who say, and we just talk about parents, it could be anyone, but parents who say, oh, I think you're looking to break ties with the family, the thing that annoys me about that so much, just to talk about my feelings for a sec, is that your mother's like,
oh, I think you might want to break ties with the family, and then she's taking every conceivable step she can take to bring that to being, right?
Yeah. I mean, it's ridiculous.
She could not plan to put you into that position any more intelligently, right?
That's true. You bring up the most difficult, sensitive, emotional, raw, difficult thing about your childhood, and she's off in the bathroom crying and attacking you.
And you leave like What the fuck was that, right?
Because she's saying, well, I think you're going to reject me, right?
But what is she doing except rejecting you?
Right, because if someone were to ask you tomorrow, I would say, well, give me the evidence that Steph thought it was a difficult conversation give me the evidence that Steph thought it was a difficult conversation You probably would have some things to say, right?
Right. You know, he expressed deep sympathy.
He kept asking me questions.
He sympathized, right? All that kind of stuff, right?
And that's what I'm sort of comparing your mother's conversation with you with.
And what do you feel now?
I feel less sadness, but I don't feel any other emotions.
I feel kind of numb right now.
And when did you start to feel numb?
Well, about a minute ago, I guess, while you were talking about what you just said, basically.
Okay.
Right, okay. And do you know why?
No.
You found them?
I don't know why.
Because I was...
Sorry, go on. Oh, no, go on.
No, no, you were going to say something.
No, I don't know.
Well, because I was expressing anger.
Oh. Oh, wow.
Well... And I sort of dissociated, maybe?
I think the maybe says yes.
Right, if you use the word maybe, that means yes.
Like she...
Like...
My mother...
You know, acted like a bully a few hours ago, and I can't even be angry at her.
Well, you are angry at her, but you can't feel it.
And why is that?
Thank you.
Well, you know the answer to that too, but I can...
I can tell you if you like. I mean, I can ask questions.
Go on. Well, because it's not allowed, right?
I mean, you brought up questions to your mother about something that was very painful and difficult for you as a child, and this is what happened.
You didn't even get angry at her, right?
And this is what happened.
What happens if you actually get angry at her?
She attacks me.
Right. And how far does that go?
Let's say you don't back down.
Well, right now?
No, let's just say that, yeah, let's say that you have a conversation with her tomorrow and you talk about, you know, I'm angry.
You didn't listen.
You attacked me.
You manipulated me. I left unsatisfied.
You didn't call. What the hell?
There's no way to treat someone.
It's bad behavior.
Right? And then she'd get all angry or she'd get upset or she'd burst into tears and you'd stand your ground and you'd say, no, no, no, no.
We're gonna talk about my feelings here.
We're gonna talk about what I need in this relationship.
We're not just going to focus on what is upsetting to you, right?
What happened?
What would happen?
Yeah, what would happen?
Well, the same thing that happened tonight.
She would get angry, she would reject me.
And you would stand your ground.
It would not be the same as tonight, because tonight you left, right?
I left when I felt like there was nothing more I would get and I needed time to think.
See, please understand, I'm not criticizing you for leaving, I'm just pointing it out.
I mean, oh good heavens, I'm sure it was the very wise thing to do.
But if you didn't, right?
I'm trying to get you to see what's on the other side of the dissociation, right?
What happens if you didn't leave and you say, no, no, no, I'm not leaving.
I'm not satisfied with this.
Because you're having all these, you know, you're making it about you and this is about my childhood pain.
And I have legitimate questions to ask about how I ended up being bullied for 10 years.
And you owe me an answer.
You're my parent. You were the parent back then.
You had all the power. I need answers.
So stop making it about you, take a deep breath, grab a Kleenex, sit down, and let's talk.
What happens?
What does she do?
And you understand, I'm not saying go do this, right?
That's not the point.
The point is, you know what would happen if you did that.
I can't even imagine.
Yes, you can! You know what would happen.
Yes, you do. Yes, you do.
Nothing comes to my mind right now.
Because I can tell you, everyone on this call, if you're on and you're in the chat window, type it in.
and everybody knows on this call what would happen next.
Punishment, rage, She would become enraged.
Bullying. These are all different people typing.
Yeah, well...
That's not what I said before.
Well, no. I said she would get angry.
Yes, and then I said, if you keep standing your ground, right?
Yeah, it would get worse.
I mean...
Until when?
Until what point? Until what point?
Yeah, like, if you keep standing your ground, what happens?
She would start screaming.
I am sure she would.
What else?
Okay, I tell you I don't know.
You tell me, yes, you do.
Your feelings now, right?
Yes.
You know what? I don't know what would happen.
Well, I can hear the fear and the Even in the breath that you're breathing.
and the anger.
Right, do you feel that tension in your body Or do you feel... I mean, how do you feel when I'm...
Because I'm sort of pushing you in a way, right?
And I apologize for that. But I think it's really important to get through the fog, right?
Mm-hmm. The anger and the accusations and the rage would just keep escalating.
Until when?
Would she call the cops?
Would she hit you? Would she leave?
Would she throw things? What would she do?
That's where I block.
I don't know what would happen.
Was she ever violent towards you or towards others?
Well, not really.
That's one of your patented answers, right?
I always have to ask questions three times, right?
What do you mean, not really?
Well, she hit me, I think, twice in my life.
So, it was not a constant threat when I was young to get hit or to have violence in any kind of way.
Okay. And did she apologize for hitting you?
Yeah. Yes, she did.
Yes, she did.
That's good.
That's good.
All right.
And what about raising her voice or yelling?
No, she apologized a few times about that, but not all the time.
It would happen more often.
How often? Well, raising her voice.
Pretty often, I guess.
How often? Just roughly.
Yeah, I'm having once a week in my head, but I'm not sure if that's true.
True, like too little, too much?
Is that too little or too much?
When I would get into arguments with my brother, she would often raise her voice and sometimes, sometimes yell.
And what about when you got into disagreements with her?
Disagreements with her would be more respectful, but...
Um... ...
There's something you're not telling me, right?
This is what all these poises are, right?
Something I'm not telling you?
Yeah, because there's lots of poises, right?
Yeah, but I'm trying to think about what I... about what's true and what I'm supposed to say about it.
Oh, well, you're not supposed to say anything, right?
Well, I mean, you don't have to say anything, right?
I'm just pointing it out.
It feels that way, that there's something that's not being said, but that's totally fine.
This line of questioning that I'm talking about, the reason that I'm asking you these things is that We stop negotiating with someone when we feel that there's either nothing to be gained, and then we just generally stop, right?
So if you're bidding on eBay for something and someone wants a million dollars for an iPod or whatever, then you're like, oh, well, I'm not going to negotiate because I'm not going to spend a million dollars on an iPod, right?
Right. And then there are other people that we stop negotiating with because they're threatening.
Right? You know, like, I really want something, but I'm not going to interact with you, or I'm going to obey you, which is, again, it's another kind of not negotiate.
As soon as someone's dominant and as soon as someone obeys, there's no more negotiation, right?
That's what we dislike so much about the government, right?
Right. That they don't negotiate with us, they say, Give us your fucking money or we'll throw you in jail, right?
Right, so it's not the former because you really wanted something from your mom, which was the truth, right?
Or at least some honest questions at the beginning of an open dialogue on this topic, right?
Right. So you didn't stop negotiating with her because you lost interest or because you didn't have the money or because whatever, right?
Because you still really wanted and needed something from her.
And so when we really want and need something from someone, and we can only ever get sustainable things in relationships through negotiation.
We can never get it through dominance, right?
Because it's just we get obedience, right?
We can only ever get sustainable things in an economy, in a relationship, through negotiation.
So you stopped negotiating, right, with your mother.
And I'm trying to get you to why you stopped negotiating with your mother.
Because her bullying worked, right?
Oh. Right.
I'm sorry, I'm a bit surprised.
No, no, that's fine.
Go on, tell me what you got from that.
Well, I felt helpless after about, I think, two hours of talking to her and only getting evasions and excuses and attacks.
Right. I felt like there wasn't anything I could get from that conversation, at least not right now.
Right. So you stopped trying to get what you want, right?
Right. So your mother had an objective called, I don't want to talk about this, and you had an objective called, I want to talk about this, right?
Mm-hmm. And who won?
She did. Right.
And she won because she was manipulative and she was a little scary and she was all this, that and the other, right?
Right. So this is why you've succumbed in the schoolyard, do you understand?
because you couldn't negotiate at home.
Yeah.
Yeah, I get it.
Yeah.
Yeah. And if we give up on something that we really, really want, and come on, you know how much you want a real answer to this, right?
Yeah. So, the only reason you would give up something that you really want, which is A, to pursue the truth, and B, more importantly, to stand up and continue to fight for what you want, and I know you're a brave fellow because of what happened on the weekend, the only reason you would give it up It's because you're shit terrified of what comes next.
Like, I pay my taxes and don't negotiate with the government because I'm shit terrified of going to jail.
Right?
I go the speed limit when there's a cop car around because I'm shit terrified of being pulled over.
Yeah, yeah.
So you must be scared, and that's why I'm trying to get you to what comes next, what happens if you stand up, what comes next if you keep pushing to get what you want in your relationship with what comes next if you keep pushing to get what you want Because you have that right to get what you want in a relationship.
In fact, if you don't get what you want, it's not a relationship.
I don't mean get what you want at the expense of someone else, but negotiate, right?
Because what we really want is to negotiate, because negotiating in relationships is a lot of fun.
In the same way that haggling in a bazaar can be fun, right?
And if you don't know what comes next, the fear, what you fear about what comes next, then you're going to end up backing away, right?
You see, you didn't back down from your mother.
You backed down from yourself, from your knowledge and your fear about what came next if you stood up.
Which is confirmed by fogging out, right?
Particularly when I mentioned anger, right?
Yeah. And I'm going to put forward a thesis, which is just a thesis.
Just a thesis. Yeah, okay.
About what you're scared of.
And you can tell me if it makes any sense or not.
It's just a theory. I think that you're terrified, my friend, of the knowledge...
That your mother will never negotiate with you.
That it will always be about her feelings.
That she will pull whatever dirty tricks, low-down punches, groin, kneecaps, whatever she needs to do to get what she wants out of an interaction.
action and there's no trick so dirty that she won't pull it in order to get exactly what she wants and to hell with what everybody else needs.
And the reason that I say this is people don't have a lot of wisdom when they're younger and then just become like this when they get older.
I mean your mom, not you.
That makes sense.
You don't believe that she will ever give you an inch, that she will ever sacrifice her own needs in the moment to help you.
Because if you did, you would keep fighting to get what you need.
But you don't believe that she will do that, and that's why you left.
Thank you.
And I'm saying that if you don't know that, you need to keep going back until you find out one way or the other.
So I guess I'll go back.
The only thing we fundamentally avoid is the knowledge that we already have.
Right? Right.
You put down five $20 bills in front of a guy who could spot a counterfeit, And he knows the one in the middle is a counterfeit dollar and you tell him to pick any one.
Is he ever going to pick the one in the middle?
Of course not. No, because he knows it's a fake.
We always avoid that which we already know.
Or the only thing that we fundamentally avoid is self-knowledge.
And you have a belief called my mother can never be negotiated with and will pull every dirty trick to get her away.
No matter who it fucks up.
Now, I'm not saying that's true, because what do I know?
But what I'm saying is you need to find that out.
And the only way you can find that out is to keep asking for, pushing for, and if necessary, demanding what you want.
To be satisfied.
To call her up tomorrow and have the same conversation.
To call her up the next day.
To go over the day after that.
and keep having the same conversation until you find out whether your fear is true.
Because she doesn't want you to call back tomorrow and she doesn't want you to go over the day after that and to say, well, I'm still not satisfied and out of respect for our possible relationship or our existing relationship or our future I'm still not satisfied and out of respect for our possible relationship or our existing relationship or our future relationship, out of respect for
Thank you.
And it's the most horrible, terrifying, scary thing, but it's the only way that I know of to stop spending the rest of your goddamn life stuck in that schoolyard being bullied.
All right.
That's true.
Thank you.
Because the schoolyard is called mom.
And if you do that, I tell you, I tell you, nothing will ever really frighten nothing will ever really frighten you again.
Okay. No, seriously.
People don't know this, right?
They don't understand, right? I mean, I get emails like, I don't know, half a dozen a week, like, Steph, how do you do this shit, right?
How do you do it? Like, how do you say all this stuff?
Why aren't you basically asking me why aren't I scared?
Well, because, I mean, I faced down my family this way.
I kept asking, kept going back, kept asking, kept persisting.
Though it made me want to throw up every day.
And I got to the truth.
And I found out I was right from the beginning.
But I had proof. I had evidence.
It wasn't just a suspicion.
It wasn't just a fear, a bigotry.
I had proof. That's why I trust my instincts so much because I verified and validated them six ways from Sunday long before FDR. You face down These kinds of fears, it's really hard to get scared again in the future.
I mean, I'm not saying it never happens.
I'm not a tank, right?
But it's hard to really get scared, and it certainly is impossible for it to sustain itself.
You know, it's like...
You know, people would get mad at me at work or clients would get mad at me.
And sometimes, like, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim that you've become Superman, but, you know, fundamentally you have this thing to call fall back on.
It's like, you know, I faced down and got the truth out of my whole family.
And it was the most terrifying thing in the world.
And, you know, after you've done that, it's...
You know what it's like?
It's like if a bullet just misses your head...
And then an hour later, you stub your toe.
It's really hard to get that upset about stubbing your toe, right?
It was like, I'm just happy the bullet didn't cream my head, right?
I sure would like to be less scared about everything.
I mean, No, and I understand that.
And look, you're not scared about everything because you're on this call.
You're hugely brave.
I mean, you may not feel that way right now, but this is some seriously brave shit that you're doing right now.
Right now. Right?
You did it on Saturday.
You're doing it today. And you did it with your mom this afternoon.
How many people will do that?
Right? I'm telling you, it's not one in a thousand.
It's fucking heroic.
And you should be incredibly proud of that.
Because it doesn't take a hero to do stuff which isn't scary, right?
And you can talk to me tomorrow, and you can talk to me the day after, if you want.
Absolutely. But I want you to get through with your family.
Either through to them or through to the truth that you can't, right?
That's what I want. Resolution.
For people. Because that's freedom.
But don't sit with the unspoken.
Don't sit with the evaded.
Don't sit with the taboos, right?
We're philosophers.
We don't do that very well, right?
All right.
But despite my enthusiastic speeches, right, this is, of course, all your decisions.
This is just my thoughts about it, right?
But you've kind of got one foot on the pier and one foot on the boat, right?
It's sort of drifting apart at the moment, right?
But what do you think about what I'm saying?
Well, I think you're right, and I will try.
I will call her back tomorrow, that's for sure.
Yeah, and you see, it doesn't have to be all confrontation.
You can just be curious and say, well, I wonder what she's going to say, if she's going to bring it up, right?
And then if you feel like saying something, it's just being nimble and alert and honest with the feelings that you're having in the moment, right?
You don't always have to call people up and say...
I want to bring this up again.
Just see. What do they do?
She knows that you're upset.
She knows that you talked about something very sensitive.
She also believes that you're thinking of separating from your family.
So that would be pretty important.
If my wife was thinking of leaving me, I would be trying everything I could to find a way to...
Find out what the problem was and work to change or whatever, right?
These are all things that she's brought to the table, as you say, right?
So just, you know, what is she going to do if she perceives this risk to be there?
What is going to happen? I guess I'll find out pretty soon.
Well, you'll find out how good your instincts were, right?
If you stopped negotiating and you left because you were scared and angry and you believed that you could not negotiate with your mother, that she would not focus on you whenever she was upset or unhappy.
If you then continue to try to negotiate with her and you find out that you can...
Then your thesis, original thesis, was incorrect.
And you left not because you couldn't negotiate, but for some other reason.
But if you find out that you simply continue to beat your head against a brick wall, then you'll know that your instincts were correct from the very beginning.
And you'll also know, by the way, everything that you need to know about why you were bullied as a child.
She can't withhold that knowledge from you, no matter what she does.
You will get that knowledge No matter what she does.
She's either going to give you an honest and open answer, in which case you'll get that knowledge, or she's going to continue to manipulate, evade and bully, in which case you'll get that answer, which is exactly as clear.
Alright, that's all I have to say.
Well, right now I just feel I'm going to do the same conversation over and over again.
Well, I mean, with my mother, not with you.
No, she hasn't recorded, so don't do it again with me.
You just listen to it again if you want.
Yeah, and I think that's important, right?
Until you come to some sort of conclusion about your possibility for negotiating in the relationship, I think it's important, right?
Keep going back until you find out one way or the other.
Have a breakthrough in negotiation or get the truth about the impossibility of it.
That's where you need to get to, in my humble opinion.
Okay, yeah. Thanks.
You understand. It is humble, right?
What I'm saying is humble because I'm saying get the evidence, right?
Don't believe me. Don't believe your mom.
Don't even believe yourself.
Get the evidence, right? That's the humility of empiricism, right?
All right, but that was my last point.
I'm going to... I don't have that many listener calls these days, so I have to get all 1200 points into one listener call, and I'm gonna bend it into whatever shape I need you to get those points in.
Are you feeling okay?
Well, better than at the beginning, for sure.
Excellent. Okay, well, I mean, I'm telling you, it's a tough road that you're on, but it is a hell of a lot better than the alternative.
You know, which is to live in that fog and fear.
All right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm sure it is. Keep me posted.
You'll send me an email tomorrow?
Let me know how it goes? Of course.
All right. Thank you.
And listen, it's truly heroic.
You may not see all that right now, but I'm telling everyone in the chat and everyone that's telling...
Like, monster heroic stuff.
And that is fantastic.
You should be incredibly proud.
And this is how we save the world, by the way.
This is how we build a free world.
Keep me posted. And if you can, maybe if you post something in the private section or whatever, just let people know how it goes.
Because it's huge, huge, huge stuff.
And, you know, monster hugs to you.
All right. I'll keep everyone posted.
Thank you so much. You're welcome.
Take care. Have a good night. Well, have a reasonable night, I guess.
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