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May 30, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
23:01
1373 New Radio Show - A conversation with Peter Mac
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Oh, hi, Peter. Yes.
Hi, Steph. How's it going? Good.
How are you? I'm just great.
Thanks. Thanks for calling.
I sent you an email a few days ago about this possibility of me having a radio talk show again.
Did you get the email? I did.
I did. It sounds interesting, but what's been going on?
I guess you and I last talked, oh, quite some time ago.
Yeah, yeah, it's been probably several years.
I had you on my show at least once and maybe a couple times.
Yeah, that's right. Right.
So, well, briefly, you know, I did that show, I called the Peter Mack Show for about five years on a local radio station, an AM station here in the Kansas City area.
And I never got paid for it, but that was fine.
I just, I did it out of, you know, a labor of love because I believed in the ideas.
And in those days, I was a staunch, you know, proponent of the Constitution and And that sort of thing.
And then gradually, like many folks, I've come over to the position that, you know, any government is really the threat of violence or the use of violence against individuals, and therefore I'm an anarchist.
And you and Larkin Rose, to me, are the best proponents of that philosophy, the best articulators of it.
And then I got this offer from this fella.
Let's see what's his name.
Michael something...
Michael Powers to do this radio show.
The reason I wanted to run it by you is because you obviously have some business sense since you pull in donations.
I'm one of those subscribers to your Free Domain podcast, right?
Yes, yes. And thank you for that.
So go ahead.
So the offer is to do this.
First, he was going to offer me one hour a week, and now he's offering me three hours a week from 9 to midnight on Saturdays.
So what I want to get from you, if you have any knowledge in this, is how I can raise the $1,500 a month for advertising that he needs.
I'd have to raise it through advertising or whatever to pay for the show.
Otherwise, it's coming out of my pocket.
And then secondly, if you would be interested in being a fairly regular guest on the show.
Well, I can certainly talk to the latter.
I would certainly be happy to jump in and see if it's of interest to your listeners for sure.
But tell me a little bit more about...
Oh, sorry.
I have my daughter. She just bumped her head.
It's okay. Oh, sweetness.
So, yeah, sorry, tell me a little bit more about this sort of $1,500 a month and all that.
Well, I mean, I just got this email from this guy, Michael Powers, at something called Liberty News Radio, and I haven't heard of it, but, you know, obviously they're looking for people to do, to host shows in, you know, the Liberty kind of view of the world, which obviously is pretty wide.
I mean, I'm sure they have lots of other people other than people like you and me on there.
But anyway... He got a lot of emails from people suggesting my name because I'd done this show in the past for five years and I still maintain my website just in the hopes that something like this would come along.
I don't know anything about really getting people to advertise on the show and pay money enough to cover the $1,500.
I just got – actually, I got fired from my job about six months ago, so I'm reluctant to take big risks.
I might do one month.
I might fork out $1,500 to get it up on the air and get you and Larkin on there and get your philosophy and name and stuff out there more.
I mean, obviously, I'd like to make money at it.
I'm a capitalist pig, so – But also, what I'm wondering out loud then is, would this be a vehicle that would be helpful to you in getting the word out?
I mean, obviously you have people that subscribe through podcasts, but he says here that this would be on the internet, but it'd also be on some AM stations.
Now, he doesn't say what.
But I think that if we could get you and Larkin on AM stations, I think that would break into a whole new demographic group that you're probably not reaching with just internet exposure.
I mean, I don't know. No, I mean, I think certainly, I mean, if I can do anything to help you on a show or whatever, I think that'd be great.
As far as just what happened with your job or your career, because I don't know much about you other than we did a show together.
Oh, well, I've been a math professor for 13 years, and I was a little tiny college called Park University near Parkville University.
In Parkville, Missouri, which is near Kansas City.
And I mean, that was my livelihood.
And then because I didn't publish anything, well, I guess that's why they fired me.
They really didn't say.
So anyway, I'm sort of trying to figure out what I'm going to do with the rest of my life now.
I just turned 53 a week ago.
But I really like the freedom issue.
And I guess the dilemma for me obviously has been, and I think you're one of these rare people that have sort of bridged the gap, is How do you practice your passion and also make a living at it?
Oh, I know. It's tough.
It is tough, tough, tough.
Sure, sure. And I don't know.
I'm not really thinking necessarily making a living doing this because it's just one three-hour show a week, if it's even that.
But if I could get enough money, I'd love to make something, but at least to cover the $1,500 a month, Right.
And see how it goes.
And then I think it would be great to get you on there.
See, I had a lot of people from the Ayn Rand Institute on.
I was a big objectivist and so forth.
And I suspect that I could get some people on.
And I think it would be really cool to have you debate some of them.
I know you did one.
In fact, Kurt Tischner, who's my webmaster, I don't know if you know anything about him, but he lives near Cleveland.
He sent me a link where you debated on YouTube or something, an objectivist, and I watched it and I thought, you know, this guy really isn't a match for Stefan.
I mean, we need somebody stronger out there so...
Yeah, I agree. When you win, it'll carry more weight.
If you're the bully on the street and you beat up a five-pound punk, then that doesn't really give much testimony to your prowess.
I have, of course, a huge respect for objectivism.
It would be sort of a detailed debate, but I would be very happy to talk to an objectivist about statelessness and so on and some of the ethical differences that I have with objectivism.
Right. Now, I think the only help that I can give you, Peter, is contacts.
And the reason that I say that is I don't have an advertising budget, so I can't advertise.
But again, if I can do anything, what I can do, of course, is use the resources of FDR and the 60,000 or 70,000 listeners to talk about, you know, you're having a show and so on, and I'll be on it.
And that will at least get people listening to the first one, which is good, I think.
So, especially if they hear that a debate between myself and an objectivist is going on, that for sure would generate some real interest, and I would be happy to do that.
But the person that I think you should talk to, his name is Mark Stevens, M-A-R-C. Oh, you know him?
Oh, is he the guy at the No State?
Yeah, No State Project.
He ran that. Okay, yeah, I had him on my show once or twice.
Okay. Right. And the reason that you should talk to him is that he has a lot of experience, and I don't know if he got the advertisers himself or what, but he does have a lot of experience in just this kind of format, Internet plus AM with the requirement for...
For advertisers. So he would be the guy to talk to because I wouldn't have any actual experience in getting advertisers or know how to do it or what's a good rate.
But he has years of experience in that, so you should definitely talk to him.
He's your dude.
Okay. Do you have a phone number for him by chance?
Let me have a look. I think...
I don't think I have a phone number because we always did things through Skype, but...
Okay. It's markstevens.net.
Can you just try that? I think that's his new website.
Markstevens.net. Okay.
Okay. Well, let me ask you this, and that's fine.
You know, I didn't necessarily anticipate that you would have a lot of expertise in that area.
Let me ask you, if you have a couple more minutes, a few more questions.
Oh, absolutely. Okay. Well, now, do you think, I mean...
As I said in my email, I don't really think I have anything new to add.
I think you and Larkin and maybe there's some others are the strongest proponents, the best articulators of the stateless society or volunteerism or whatever you want to call it.
So I really just see my role as someone who facilitates like a debate between you and objectivists and so forth.
But the question then I have is, is there really enough content?
I mean, would I be doing anything new that you haven't already covered in your podcast?
And if not, that may be okay because we may be reaching a different audience.
But I'm just wondering, three hours from nine to midnight on Saturday nights, if that would pull in people.
I mean, I guess we can always... Right.
I mean, there seems to be...
And you also might want to talk to Ian or Mark at Free Talk Live.
Have you ever had a chat with them?
I sent them an email once and they never responded to me.
That was over a year ago, just before I went to New Hampshire one time, because I know they're there, right?
Right. Try it again and just be persistent.
You know, like most people, two or three emails will finally get a response.
Just have to be annoyingly persistent.
But they are real bloodhounds when it comes to driving listenership and getting advertisers and stations.
So, you know, if you get their ear for a few minutes, that would be hugely helpful.
As far as, I mean, the format is, you know, just about anything that you want.
I think, I mean, the stuff that has been gaining traction for me, which I think will help.
I call it true news, but you can call it whatever you want, which is taking philosophical principles and applying them to current events.
I mean, the Free Talk Live guys do a lot of current event stuff, and so does Mark Stevens.
I didn't used to do that, but I started doing it just out of curiosity, and it seems to be quite popular.
So in terms of generating massive new principles, well, I don't know that that's hugely important, but I think what is important is to take the principles that we have...
And step people through the current event stuff.
On YouTube, I have a feed for my True News series, and you might want to dip into a few of those.
You know, see if it's something that you like.
And you could do that for, I guess you get 40 minutes with advertising, and then you could have a guest on for 40 minutes.
And then you could take questions from the audience and then have a guest on at the end or something.
I mean, audience participation seems to be very key for these kinds of shows.
Right, yeah. Well, I would definitely want to do that.
I think that there's, you know, I mean, yeah, it's more fun.
Well, yeah, and I think that when you apply the principles to current events or whatever, I think it helps elucidate the principles too because people say, okay, I mean, I can, I mean, I suspect a lot of people say, yeah, I want a society where nobody harms anybody and where everybody's voluntary, you know, but then how does that work?
How do we, you know, I mean, and you've obviously addressed a lot of these things with your podcast, you know, how to, How do we have security?
How do we resolve disputes?
You could talk a long time on your dispute resolution organizations and stuff.
I think that's a great idea.
I'm sorry to interrupt. There's just one other person that I would suggest that you get in touch with.
I was on his show a couple of times.
He was at one point a Libertarian candidate for president.
Michael Badnarik, I'm sure you've heard the name.
Yeah, he's a guy who also has a lot of experience in the radio world.
And, you know, these kinds of shortcuts are just hugely valuable.
So those are the four people, Ian and Mark from Free Talk Live, Mark Stevens and Michael Badnarek, that, I mean, if I had questions, that's where I would go because I don't really know much about the radio business.
Right, okay. But you would be open and...
I'd be happy to. It's meanable to be on several times because I really think it would be great to have you and Larkin on.
As I said, when I talked about the Constitution stuff before, I did a lot of research about things and current topics and this, that.
And I can still put my two cents in, but I just think that since the shift now would be toward a stateless society or whatever, then I would want you two to be the primary exponent of that.
I think that's, I mean, I appreciate your kind words, obviously, about my contributions.
That really is very generous.
I appreciate that. I think, I'm not sure what your religious beliefs are, but I also have noticed that a good way to gain an audience is to talk about theology and philosophy.
You know, the sort of minor overlaps and a great deal of opposition between the two.
That can be quite an exciting show, right?
Right. Well, that's good, too.
Yeah, no, I became an atheist several years ago, so I don't, you know...
Okay, because, you know, the big bestsellers in the non-fiction stuff is all atheist stuff.
Atheism has grown in Canada over the past 25 years from 10% to 35%.
85% of Swedes are atheists, 65% of Japanese, 44%...
British people are atheists, and by that I mean no religious affiliation.
They could be agnostics or something.
But it is a very underserved demographic, if that makes sense, because all of the mainstream media, particularly on the freedom side, is pretty religious.
And so I think if you wanted to get a theologian, I would be happy to debate that as well.
I don't know what the numbers are percentage-wise.
You just rattled off some there.
European countries tend to be less religious than America in general, wouldn't you agree?
Oh, yes, that's very true, but it's also changed.
But their religion is the state.
They do, and I think that would be an interesting topic, you know, to say to somebody, well, I'm an atheist and stuff.
Well, you're really not an atheist.
I mean, maybe in the technical sense you don't believe in a supernatural being, but you look to the state to solve all problems.
Yeah, you believe in an equally improbable authority called the gun.
Yeah. Sorry, that's a very controversial topic, but it certainly would get you into a demographic that is probably underserved.
But sorry, I interrupted. Please go ahead.
No, no, that's fine. I mean, it's hard not to interrupt when you're on the phone one.
But yeah, I mean, so you're convincing me here pretty quickly that we wouldn't have problems with enough content and so on.
I guess the main sticking point then is just, you know, how do I pay for the show and without dipping into my own pocket and I really like the idea.
I don't have anything to back this up with data, Stefan, but my sense is that there's an awful lot of good stuff on the internet, but there are an awful lot of people that may use a computer at home and stuff, but they don't really get on the internet and search around or do Google searches, and they're just not going to run into you.
That's my sense. I mean, it could be wrong, but If we could penetrate some AM markets where we get the person that's just driving home from work one day and just flipping on the radio and they start hearing this stuff, I think that would be really interesting.
We're going to offend a lot of people, but that's okay.
Get them to tune in and get people mad or to call in or whatever.
I think that would be... That would make the show more exciting.
Right. And as you know, I don't have any advertising anywhere.
I just do donations.
So that is another business model that has worked for me, but it is a very exciting business model.
Right. I mean, what we could do, and I haven't decided yet.
I'm going to follow up on what you suggested and contact as many of these four people as I can here quickly because this guy, I think, wants an answer.
I mean, I might do it and then, you know, we could, like you suggested, you could throw out to your listeners, okay, I'm going to be on this show, you know, this month or this many times.
If any of you have any suggestions, and I might do that in the air, I might say, okay, folks, we've done four shows.
This is costing me $15 a month.
If you like this show and you want it to continue, You're going to have to donate some money or something, or what if we're going to be off the air?
Because I'm not going to spend $1,500 a month out of my own pocket to do that.
As much as I want to spread the word...
Yeah, no, we've got to eat, right?
We've got to eat. Exactly.
Well, the other thing, too, is that if you pay, I mean, what has made it very, I think why I get, why it's grown so fast at Free Domain Radio is because, I mean, if I don't produce really, really high quality that really interests people, I don't get any money, right? So if you pay for it yourself, you're never particularly driven quite as much by the demands of the listenership, whereas if you become reliant upon them, that's a real client-facing relationship, if that makes any sense.
Right. Yeah, you're right.
But I, you know, I sort of faced that with my previous show and I just, you know, how do I get people to advertise?
I mean, somebody selling soap or something, you know, do they really care that much about the Constitution or whatever?
You know, I mean, maybe they do, but they're like, I mean, they want to sell their product and, you know, whatever will sell it.
So that's, you know, for somebody sort of a mainstream advertiser, somebody selling soap or whatever, They're going to have to be convinced that my audience is big enough that they're going to sell.
And they probably won't really care what the content is.
I mean, some of them might object.
If they're devoutly religious, they probably wouldn't want to support an atheist show.
But if they're more atheist, they probably will and wouldn't want to go on a religious show.
Well, that's a good point.
That's a good point. It's almost taboo in this country.
Maybe it is in Canada, too, or maybe less.
To say that you're an atheist, it's all...
I sense that a lot of people...
Well, I mean, maybe I'm projecting because of my own sort of evolution out of it, is people are sort of afraid to say they really doubt the existence of God.
Oh, yeah. It is a taboo topic, for sure, because...
And not because atheists are so aggressive, but because religious people can often be a little tense about those questions, right?
Right, right.
Okay, well this is great.
And if you don't mind, and this is completely up to you, I have a private section of my board for the sort of highest tier donators, and there's very few people, but they're pretty smart and experienced.
If you would like, I can post our conversation into that section, so it'll be completely private, except for a few people who I'm mostly friends with.
And ask them if they have any ideas or expertise, whether they would like to email you?
Sure, that would be great.
Because I'm still, at this point, I'm still kind of on the fence about whether to do it or whatever.
Can you just give us, if you could just read off your email, then they'll know who to talk to.
Okay, it's peter57atmac.com.
P-E-T-E-R-5-7 at mac.com.
Fantastic. Okay. Well, do let me know.
If you can't get any contact from these people, I can try giving it a shot and tell them to, you know, give you a call or whatever.
So do let me know. And of course, if you get any emails that are of value from my listeners, that would be great.
And I certainly would.
I would like a venue where I could have slightly more sophisticated debates than with the YouTube denizens.
So I would appreciate the opportunity for sure.
Right. Good. And I think, you know, and one of the guys at the Ayn Rand Institute said to me one time, I mean, video's great, and we all watch TV, but this guy, and it really struck me, it resonated as making sense.
He said, you know, talk radio is powerful because it forces people to think about the ideas.
You're not looking at some pretty face on there, you know, like the networks have now, you know, some I mean, they have these gorgeous women, and you're sitting there looking at her, and I'm asking myself, would I be watching this if she weren't so good-looking?
Because she has nothing to say, really.
Right, right. She's very nice to look at, you know?
Right. No, I think that's a good point.
I think that's a good point. Okay, well, I will definitely be in touch and let you know one way or another.
Is the best way to contact you just with email, then?
Yeah, email is great.
My first name, Mandaba, last name is my Skype ID if you have that, so that would be great.
I have Skype too, yeah.
I can just tell you what I had.
After I thought about it, I thought maybe you didn't want to put your phone number in an email.
What I had is for your mobile, it's 416-275-9168.
And for your home, 416-907-2920.
That's perfect. No, I don't mind these numbers being out there.
That's fine. Oh, okay.
Well, but obviously I have your email because you responded.
You bet. And then in terms of Skype, well, we can exchange the Skype information sometime.
I'm P. McSlim on Skype.
We could We could do that sometime.
You bet. Okay, very good. I appreciate it, Stefan.
Thanks, Ben. And it's an exciting change of life.
And if it's any consolation, I made this transition from a salaried gig to this nonsense.
And while there's never any guarantees in any entrepreneurial situation, it's a much better life now.
So there's something on the other side of that hill that looks very hard to climb that is really great.
So I hope that you'll give it a shot.
Well, I appreciate that, yeah, because I definitely don't want to just work for somebody else.
Plus, there's, you know, who knows what?
I mean, I really think this.
I like your ideas. I like Larkin.
I don't know if you've read any of his books, but I think that, you know, the two of you could become quite rich if we could just crack a tiny, tiny bit of the audience out there, but we have to get to them.
I mean, maybe I'm pie-in-the-sky thinking here, Stefan, but I could see where your donations could go up tenfold or something, and And, you know, that would be pretty nice, wouldn't it?
Yeah, I would not say no to that.
And then if I'm doing a radio show and people like what we're doing, then maybe the advertising would pour in and maybe I'd get $10,000 a month and I'd throw $1,500 toward, you know, Liberty, whatever, and the rest is my income.
So who knows what could happen.
Absolutely. All right, so keep me posted and, you know, congratulations on the opportunity and it sounds very exciting.
Okay, great. I'll talk to you.
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