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March 30, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:05:13
1319 Movie 'Twilight' Review Chat

A listener and I discuss the movie 'Twilight' - From Dec 08

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Time Text
Hello?
Hey, Greg?
.
Hello? Oh, hi.
Can I ask you to call me back on Skype in a second?
Sure. Hey, Greg?
Yep, I'm here. All right.
Sorry about that. The furnace guy needed some help.
Oh, the furnace guy?
Yeah, we're just getting our furnace service for the winter.
Kind of important up here in the chilly armpit of the witch north.
I'm not home either. I'm sorry?
I was just saying that's why I'm not home either.
My furnace is out.
Right, right. So you went to go and see Twilight.
Yes. Yes, I did.
And should I just say what I thought about it?
Yeah, I guess...
Sure.
Well, yeah, I mean, I really, after listening to the podcast, I really wanted to go see it and see some of these metaphors for myself because, I mean, I really don't see that many movies, so it's really hard for me to kind of see what's happening in modern culture, and I thought this was a...
Metaphor-rich example to try that.
Right. And, yeah, the example that brought out the...
It was a pretty sharp and instantaneous reaction as well.
Like, I wasn't...
I was totally not expecting it.
Like, I was... I was sitting back, just sort of enjoying that song that I ended up posting on the board.
Yes, thank you. That's a lovely song.
Oh, I liked it. Thanks.
And... So I was just sitting back enjoying that and just kind of watching the movie and it was a light plot, not a whole lot to it, in terms of the actual plot like you talked about in the podcast.
And then instantly when he said that line, which was, isn't it enough to just live a long and happy life, I just started to cry.
Right. And I was not expecting that at all.
And it really caught me off guard.
And I actually was going to talk about that line in the podcast, but I felt it was long enough.
So I'm glad that it's coming up.
Yeah, and it just struck me because it was...
And I didn't know just what was happening for me.
And it's really been kind of...
It's been this earwig on me for the past two days now, or day and a half, because it's...
I just didn't know exactly where it came from.
And I even, as you pointed out rightfully in the chatroom, I was reframing it into my mind like, well, I want to live more than just a content life.
And you were like, wait, wait, wait, no, no, you didn't say that.
So that's interesting in and of itself why I was reframing that.
And so I don't know.
So what are your thoughts on it?
Well, I don't want to give that any thoughts until we know more about what you felt when the line hit.
So you said you felt sad and you cried, which means that it was plugging into a part of you that was listening that you weren't aware of, right?
Because you say it took you by surprise.
And that happens to all of us out of self-knowledge.
So what was the feeling?
And do you know what the thoughts were behind it?
Sure. It was a rich, deep sadness, and it was pretty much just sadness.
I can't think of any other feelings that were behind it.
Right. It was just pretty pure sadness in a way.
And it was really also some thoughts that I'm thinking of were I could be doing more.
You could be doing more?
Almost like I'm not living up to my potential.
Right. But I don't know if that fits.
But that was definitely a thought that came.
But that wasn't in the moment.
That was after the movie when I was walking out and thinking about that.
That came up then.
But I'm really having trouble Just pinpointing the thoughts that were in the moment, what led to the sadness.
Right, right. I can understand that.
I can understand that. And I think the interesting thing is that in the chat room, you reframed it, right?
Which is what we talked about, where you said, well, I don't want to just live a contented life.
I want more. Which is not what the line says.
The long and happy life, right?
That's what the line says.
So there was a reframing of it for you, if that makes sense?
Totally. Total reframing, even until 15 minutes ago, I was reframing it.
Sure, sure. And that means that there's a subtext, right?
The things which impact us emotionally have a kind of subtext that's usually very complicated, which is why it hits all of the ambivalence of our emotions rather than the Sunlit clarity of our conscious and rational minds.
You know, the more ambivalent the statement, the more it's likely to hit our emotional ambivalence, if that makes any sense.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yes. Now...
I mean, to me, the first place to start is in the movie, because that's what provoked it.
And not to take the statement in isolation, right?
Because it's not just...
If anyone had said it, you may not have had the same...
But this person said it, right?
The vampire. Yes, the vampire to the girl he loved in the movie.
Or they were in the relationship with while they were dancing.
Right. And she wanted to become immortal.
Yeah, she wanted to become a vampire so that she could live with him forever and...
I guess keep doing high school forever.
Maybe she really liked high school. So what did you think of that choice that she expressed in the movie about wanting to be with him forever?
After she came within two seconds of being murdered by another vampire?
Oh, well that was to me it was a total what the hell kind of Thoughts were going through my mind like, whoa, you want an eternity of this?
You want this past hour of this movie to keep replaying year after year?
Right. And in a way, it wouldn't even be year after year because the concept of year would become meaningless.
Yes, that's right.
That's right. So, after...
The violence, right?
After being hunted, after having her father's life threatened, after being almost killed, after having this guy...
I can't remember the name of the male vampire, the young guy.
Edward. Edward, okay.
So after having Edward suck her blood and almost dying and so on, she's just...
She's just like, yay, you know, let's have more of it, right?
So she really wants to go into this life that is full of really violent people, is full of, like, no sleep, and a constant hunger that can never be satisfied, right?
Because, as he said, it's like living on tofu, right?
To eat the blood of animals.
Right, and he completely warned her of just about everything negative that Yes, but he's pretty disingenuous, right? Because he says don't do it while being all kinds of attractive, right?
Right, right, right.
So it's kind of disingenuous to be handsome and mysterious and powerful and save her life.
And he showed her all of the delights of his life, right?
Like they go running... Oh, like the tree jumping.
Yeah, he's like, this is the world I live in where we do all of these...
We can climb to the tops of mountains and we live forever and I'm terrifically strong and I... Right, right.
So he shows her all of this attractive stuff, right?
And then he's like, oh, you don't want this life.
Oh, which is completely manipulative in the mindset, kind of.
Oh, totally. Oh, totally.
There's lots of ways to have somebody not desire your life as a vampire, right?
One is, don't tell them you're a vampire, right?
That's one of them, right?
The other is, don't be fascinating and attractive to them, right?
The other is, don't show them all of the upside, but only tell them about the downside, right?
Right. What you show people is much more important than what you tell them, right?
Oh, right. Oh, yeah.
Because he says, oh, it's bad and blah, blah, blah.
But what he does is he picks her up and takes her through the treetops and he shows her in a vivid and brags about how wonderful his life is.
Right. Right.
And she sees firsthand how beautiful their home is.
Just everything like that, right?
Yes, exactly.
Exactly. And he takes her to the baseball and so on, right?
Yes, and even being stalked and whatever at the baseball game did nothing to deter her.
Right. And he never...
He never shows her...
Oh, we never see him actually drinking the blood of a bunny rabbit and chewing through its neck, right?
Right. That's...
I had never...
That hadn't even really hit me, but not once did we see them eating anything at all.
Right, because, and to me, again, there's lots of layers of metaphor in this movie, which is why it's successful, right?
And also, I don't believe that the metaphors are very conscious on the part of the writer or the director.
But she's a vegetarian, right?
Yeah. And she dislikes even seeing her father eat cooked and prepared meat, right?
Right. Right.
Now, if she saw her cutesy, pale, high-cheekboned, big-haired boyfriend actually eating the head off a rabbit live, or whatever he does, right?
How would that compare to watching her father eat a cooked steak?
Oh, it's a complete...
I mean, the hierarchy of values comes in where...
The steak or the burger or whatever means really nothing in comparison, right?
And how is she, as a vegetarian, supposed to live off animals if she becomes a vampire?
Right. I mean, it's a complete mindfuck, right?
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right.
So this, and this is, of course, you know...
This is the provocation of envy is only inflamed by saying, oh, this life is not for you, right?
You can't have this.
You shouldn't want it.
It's too tough a life for you.
You should go back to playing with your dolls and, you know, all of this sort of stuff, right?
But it's all designed to provoke envy and desire and so on, right?
I mean, you don't show someone all of the great aspects of your life and show them none of the terrible aspects that come with being a vampire and And then just say to them, oh, you know, well, it's a tough life.
And, you know, even though it's exciting and we have superhero fights and we can run through treetops and we glitter in the sun and so on, you don't want this, right?
Right, especially to someone like her who is average at best at just about everything.
Oh, no, she's below average at just about everything.
Right, because she's not 40, she's not intellectual.
She seems to have some knowledge of biology, but that's...
She's not much of anything, right?
Right. So I think it's important to look at what he's saying in the context of the movie, right?
Right. Because all of that ambivalence and all of that complexity and all of that contradiction, we totally get deep down, right?
Right, and this was towards the end of the film, so that ambivalence had probably been building in me throughout the course of the movie.
Right, because we get that this is all complete nonsense and manipulation, right?
Oh, totally, totally.
I mean, if this guy wants to not lure people into the life of being a vampire, why is his hair so perfectly coiffed?
Right.
Why does he wear the nicest of clothes he can get?
Right! Right.
Why doesn't he, you know, black out one of his teeth and shave his head and shave one eyebrow and get a tattoo on his forehead, right?
And eat enough rabbits to put on 50 pounds or whatever, right?
Why does he take care to be as sexually, exotically appealing as possible with the perfect hair and perfect teeth and, you know, he says everything about me is designed to Seduce you, to appeal to you.
But he's doing that.
He does his hair, right?
He chooses his clothes.
He picks his house, right?
And one further, why the hell is he even in school anyway, if he really wants to keep people away from that?
Well, of course. I mean, you raise an excellent point, right?
Which is, why the hell does he have to be in high school anyway?
Why? What's the point?
Right, he's 100 years old.
He's been through, and he had all the diplomas that they showed, or the graduation hats that they had on the wall.
Right, he says he's 17, and actually he doesn't look 17 in the movie.
He's older than that, I think, in real life.
But the point is that they could easily say he's 19 and he's graduated, right?
And there's no need for him then to be this unbelievably hunky, sexy guy who is mysterious and powerful and saves lives.
I mean, in high school, of all places, right, where girls are susceptible to that kind of stuff, right?
Right.
So it's pretty disingenuous.
Right. And the other thing that I think is kind of freaky about that moment, moment and I want to get back to your feelings but just to get to the ambivalence of what what happens when he says
what's wrong with a long and happy life is that he's making no reference whatsoever to the basic fact that her life with him so far has been a disaster oh totally I mean she's sexually frustrated She is a burning hunger and attachment, right?
I mean, I love him.
I mean, in the theater where I was at, and maybe this is a Canadian thing, I mean, people just laughed at that line.
Because it's like, of course you don't love him, right?
I mean, don't be ridiculous.
That's just a crush, right?
It's like kissing a picture of David Cassidy in the 70s.
I love him, right?
Right. Right, she loved him and didn't know anything about him, really.
Oh yeah, and she was only interested in him for things that had nothing to do with his personality.
His vampirism, his looks, his strength, his whatever, right?
So clearly there's, you know, this all messed up, right?
So after she's gotten completely screwed up and has fallen in love with a vampire and has become fetishistically attached to this metaphor for Sociopathy and narcissism.
And she has been tortured.
She can't sleep. She's sexually awakened but unsatisfied.
She's been chased.
She's been beaten up.
She's been gouged in the leg.
She's almost died. She's had her blood sucked.
She's in hospital.
She's hurt her father.
She's lied to her mother.
She's broken with her friends after this complete disaster.
of a relationship, he says to her, hey, if we're together, it's a long and happy life.
I mean, that's insane, right?
Yeah.
So you mean, like, if we're together with you still as a human, that's a long and happy life?
Well, sure, that's what he means, I think, when he says that, right?
But all they've had...
Is complete and utter disasters.
I mean, near fatal disasters, right?
Family shattering disasters.
She's going to walk with a limp for the rest of her life because she got hit with a stake in the leg, right?
Cut the femoral artery and she almost died, right?
Right, right.
So this has been what her life has been with him so far.
Right? Near death, permanent injury, right?
And so he says, if you stay as a human being, we'll have a long and happy life.
Based on what? What evidence is there for that, right?
Right. I mean, in particular...
This group, this doctor and his wife, the pseudo-family of vampires, they seem to be quite rare as far as vampires go, right?
Because most of the vampires seem to be, you know, just out-and-out, cold-blooded killers, right?
Right, right.
So how's that going to work?
Every time they run into a vampire, exactly the same, because they're all evil except for these guys, exactly the same thing is going to play out.
Ooh, you brought a snack, let me hunt you, or whatever, right?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, this James guy, the guy who was hunting her down, he wasn't an isolated incident as far as vampires go in the context of the movie.
He wasn't just an anomaly, right?
Yeah, the only other two vampires that we saw, other than this tracker guy, was the woman who joined in very happily to kill Bella, and the black guy with the dreadlocks who basically ran away, right? Right, right.
So that's the life, right?
Yeah. And also, what happens just by the by?
I mean, how many 17-year-old guys are erotically interested in 70-year-old women?
That's what I was thinking.
Right. Because she's going to age and he's not, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
So are they going to pretend that she's his grandmother?
I mean, how's that going to work, right?
Is he going to keep going through high school and she takes him to school, right?
Right, right. She drops him off and picks him up, right?
She's my sister, she's my mother, she's my grandmother, she's my great-grandmother, right?
Right, right. So how can that work, right?
Yeah.
So there's no thought in what he says, what's wrong, with a long and happy life.
And it's completely in defiance of what has actually happened in their relationship, right?
Which is slaughter, violence, mayhem, right?
Shattering the family and so on, right?
And she's totally, seemingly unaware of this context dropping?
Oh, sure. And how does the movie end after he says what's wrong with a long and happy life?
I couldn't tell.
Was that the evil vampire woman?
I think it was the blonde woman who got her hair out of Eowyn from Lord of the Rings, I think.
Right. So yeah, she had been watching them with her wolf coat on or whatever, and...
Turned away in a sinister way and walked away and then the credits started rolling.
Right. So he says, what's wrong with a long and happy life?
And the very next thing that happens is a vampire is going to try and kill her.
Right. And just by the by, since I was obviously much in tune to what songs were playing throughout the course of the movie, I don't know if you picked up on this as well, but it went from that sweet, sad...
that I posted on the board straight into right when the credits started rolling into a disjointed radio head song.
Right, right.
Which was totally jarring for me just in terms of emotions and what I was hearing.
But in a way, it made sense given the context of seeing this evil vampire watching this prom, right?
Right.
And what is also true is that for sociopaths, the closest thing that they get to happiness is violence and abuse, right?
For sadists, the closest they ever get to what we would call happiness is the endorphin thrill of the brutal exercise of violence and power.
And so the movie is clearly saying to me that she wants this violence.
That is a long and happy life for her.
Is where being hunted, you know, they dismembered this guy and burned him.
I mean, that's medieval, right?
The vampire who was chasing him.
Her, sorry. For her, a long and happy life is a life of being hunted and being killed and being rescued and almost dying and then coming back to life.
Because she's emotionally dead and so all she can pursue is thrills.
It's like the guys who do the ultimate fighting championship and so on.
Or the guys who have huge and massive addictions or whatever.
It's like Or the guys who are into violent crime or who, you know, extreme sports.
Because they can't experience any spontaneous, genuine and deep feelings, all they can pursue, the only thing that makes them feel alive, is the overstimulation of massive sensations.
Fear, anger, desire.
That's all...
It's like self-cutting, right?
So all that they can do to feel, all they can do is pursue sensation.
Right, right. For her, that is a happy life, where she's going to be hunted by another vampire and there's going to be all this drama and death and violence.
That's the closest she can get to happen.
Sorry, go ahead. I was just going to say, I did, out of curiosity, look up how the sequel, what the plot of it, because they've already written the books.
It's sort of like Harry Potter or something.
And actually, I didn't read much of that, but on Wikipedia it said something like, she's addicted in the next movie to motorcycling and skydiving and seeking the thrill.
Right, and that makes sense, right?
Yeah, and so that really stuck out when you were just saying that about the thrill-seeking, but even without that context of the next movie, which I didn't have while watching it, she's obviously Sure, that's the life she wants. Because she has no emotional connection to anyone around her.
And that's very clear in the movie, right?
She has no emotional connection to her father, who is a depressed kind of undead.
She has no emotional connection to her mother, because her mother keeps saying, ooh, talk to me.
And she's like, no, I can't.
No, I won't. I'm busy.
I can't. That's repeated throughout the movie every time her mom calls, right?
Right, yeah. Oh yeah, that stuck out as well.
And no emotional connection when the guy asks her after prom.
She's just like, oh, sorry, what did you say?
She was just very much in a haze.
Oh yeah, she lives in a world of really traumatized isolation, in my opinion, right?
She's separated from her family and goes to her father, who is completely emotionally dead, and she has no friends that she can connect with.
When she goes prom shopping with her friends, she's completely disconnected from them, right?
Yeah, yeah. She's like, I really want to go with you guys, and then they're all happy she's going to go, and then they're prom dressed, and she's like, I really want to go to the bookstore, guys.
I'm going to go, right?
Right, right, right.
Where there's the scene where the guys jump her or corner her or whatever.
So she leaves the safety of her friends and goes to this dark Native American bookstore in the bad section of town.
She leaves the public safe good section of town with her friends and goes to this other place, right?
Again, voluntarily saying or voluntarily putting herself in a risky situation.
She doesn't say, guys, come with me to the bookstore, right?
Right, right. Or she doesn't say, I'll go during the day, or she doesn't say to the shop owner, hey, if you're just about to close up, can you walk me?
Right, because... I mean, the world of the woman is quite different from the world of the man, right?
I mean, there's danger, right?
I mean, I can go walking in the woods at 2 o'clock in the morning.
Christina would never do that, right?
Right. When we took our prenatal class, or when we took our series of prenatal classes, the instructor, it was 9 o'clock at night in a busy mall area, and she asked...
We asked to walk her to her car.
Because she said, you know, well, it can be dangerous, right?
And this was, I mean, this is Mississauga, right?
One of the safest places on the planet.
Maybe that was an overreaction, but it doesn't really matter, right?
Because that's what she felt, so we walked her to her car, right?
So that is a woman who is sensibly cautious, or maybe overcautious, but that's not my judgment to make, right?
But who is sensibly cautious about the possibility of getting into a dangerous situation.
Right, and when something like that is on the line, especially for a woman, it's better to err on the side of caution, right?
Well, I think so, for sure, right?
And so here we have a situation where she's so disconnected with people, she goes to look up vampires in a bad section of town and so on, right?
And what stuck out to me more in that scene than that she put herself in that situation was Was that she goes directly from almost being basically game-raped and then just goes and has a nice dinner with no real context to what had happened.
She's like...
It was just completely jarring, like, okay, the last thing that's going to be on your mind after you're almost brutally whatever they were going to do to her is, let's go have a nice dinner.
Right, and the whole movie, it destroys...
Any sense of context, repeatedly.
I mean, everything in the movie has no context, right?
So you're right.
She doesn't go through a pleasant, chatty, sexy dinner, which is like no context.
The fact that she grew up in this town, she knows it.
So she knows where this bookstore is, that it can't be a good section of town, right?
Because these guys aren't in the good section of town.
They wouldn't be. So she knows.
She puts herself in the risk.
She goes for a happy dinner. And I think at the end when he says, let's have a long and happy life, it has no context with the rest of the film and everything that's happened and everything that's about to happen at the end of the film when the bad vampire comes back, the woman, right?
Right. And her erotic interest in this undead creature who doesn't appear to be able to have sex, that has no context whatsoever, right?
Right. So everything is in the moment, too much so, right?
Nothing has any context, nothing has any bigger picture, right?
She's just following the whim and desire and self-destructive impulses of the moment, right?
Right, it's such tunnel vision.
Right, and it's exactly, it destroys context in the same way that an abusive parent who says, but I love you!
Destroys context. It's just words, right?
Right. Right.
Right. After all of this disaster and mayhem and destruction, where she's almost killed and her family is shattered, and they rip apart this guy and burn him, after all of that violence, he says, long and happy life.
That's good.
It has no context, and it's in complete opposition to everything that has occurred.
Right. And another thing I'll say is, during the dinner, right, when he even points, I mean, she even has no context for a vampire, because when he says, I can read your mind, oh, sorry, I can read everyone's minds, and she says something inconsequential, and he says, I just told you I can read everyone's minds, and all you can say is, Hamana, Hamana?
What she said was, He said, but I can't read your minds.
I can read everyone but yours. And she said, wait, does that mean there's something wrong with me?
And he's like, wait, wait, wait. I just tell you I can read minds, and you think there's something wrong with you?
Right. So she's narcissistic even to a vampire, right?
Right. Right.
She's like, I just told you I can read minds, and your first thought is about you, not about this or the context or what this means or anything, right?
And she doesn't, of course, put him to the test, right?
It's a pretty convenient story to say, I can read everyone's mind except yours, right?
That's like the guys who say, I have amazing psychic abilities, but the moment I'm put in a controlled experiment, it doesn't work, because there's skeptics in the room.
Right, right, right. So, I mean, even a predator finds herself involved, right?
Yeah, yeah, that stuck out to me in the movie.
She turned it instantly like that.
Right. So, I mean, I think that we get that when he says, what's wrong with a long and happy life, that it's a completely insane statement, right?
Right, right.
And it wasn't about a long and happy life.
And what I've been doing over the past day and a half has been examining, like, why would a long and happy life make me sad?
Why would that, like, you know?
And that's like, I was just looking at it in an isolated, well, with no context.
Right, and what I think that means, and I don't know much about this aspect of your family life, but I think what it means is that your mother probably, or maybe your father, mouths empty platitudes about family happiness that has no context with the truth of the family. mouths empty platitudes about family happiness that has no context Yeah, that's it.
I mean, this can't be the first time you've encountered this kind of platitude that is wildly in opposition and out of context with what has actually happened.
Thank you.
Right. I mean, I think that's staying on money.
I felt a very similar feeling just now to what I felt in the movie.
Okay, so what did your mother say about your family and its happiness?
Well, my mother would say...
I'm trying to...
It's hard to access.
Well, my mother would often use sort of my mental skills. my mother would often use sort of my mental skills.
Like I was a grade ahead and like I'd actually leave the first grade class and go up to the second grade class for a little bit of a day.
stuff like that.
And she would use that sometimes, actually a lot of times, to like look how good our family is that we raise such people like this.
And she would take a lot of credit for that, which was jarring for me.
Because at that age, it's pretty accidental, something like that.
Right. But being able to read three or four, something like that, that's just, that's not...
That's pretty accidental.
Yeah, it's like taking credit because your kids are tall, right?
Exactly, exactly.
It's not a reflection of virtue as a parent, right?
Exactly. And...
I mean, I was...
Forced to be an altar boy and was actually yelled at because I didn't want to be an altar boy and instead wanted to do other things.
And my dad in this case threatened to ground me from reading.
Right. Like pleasure reading.
Right. If I didn't want to be an altar boy.
And then they would use that I'm an altar boy as a status symbol for the family.
So, right after me being abused into being an older boy, they would use that as an example of how happy we were.
Right. But, I mean, these are isolated.
Well, not isolated, but these are specific instances.
It's hard for me to think of general instances that were, like, kind of more repetitive.
Right. But what you're saying is enough, right?
In my opinion. Right.
Because it's a pattern, right?
That's true, yeah.
It doesn't have to happen every day, right?
Right. I mean, if a guy only punches his wife five times a year, it's still an abusive relationship, right?
Even though she's got 360 days where he doesn't, right?
Right. Right.
No, that's exactly right.
So this statement...
I mean, the interesting thing, just to touch on the movie again, is that when he says, what's wrong with a long and happy life, they are in a...
At the prom and it's a beautiful glittering gazebo and the stars are out and the music is playing, right?
And it is the mark of a very primitive personality to imagine eternity in the moment.
Because I am happy now, because I am content now, because my anxiety is down now, I will now be perfectly happy.
Right. Imagine the wedding as the honeymoon.
Right, right, right.
And the reason that narcissistic and sociopathic people fall in love with the eternity in the moment is to ensure future violence.
because they then get to have their hopes dashed and get angry.
Sorry, can you repeat that?
I'm just trying to remind her of that.
Sure. If...
For sure, she's not going to have a happy life, and probably not even a long one, with this guy, right?
Right. And the movie makes that clear, because she's almost died from the last hunt, and now she's going to be hunted again, right?
Right. Creating a pattern.
So... When somebody says in the, quote, magic of the moment where they feel happy because of external circumstances...
Oh, and the movie doesn't even have basic continuity.
Like, she got stabbed all the way through to her artery in the leg, and she's dancing perfectly fine a day or two later, right?
Right, and the doctors didn't notice that there were bite marks on her arm.
Right, right. I mean, nothing has any context.
I mean, this is an insane world, right?
But in the magic of the moment where she's sitting there, she's got her head against his chest.
It's a glittering, beautiful evening.
The music is playing.
The lights are twinkling.
The stars are shining and so on.
In that moment, they both genuinely believe...
That peace and happiness is possible.
Forever. Because they feel that in the moment.
And therefore it should stay forever, right?
It's not circumstantial.
It must be permanent now.
That is something that they expect, right?
And the reason that people fall in love with the magic of the moment and the eternity of the moment is because deep down they know it won't last.
But they also know that the more they raise their expectations that it will last, the more angry they get when it doesn't.
It's setting the stage for future rage and abuse.
Thank you.
Right.
Right. Right.
Right. You know, they have, I don't know, make up sex, oh, we'll never fight again, and everything's going to be great, and they break through to the euphoria of the moment, right? And they proclaim their undying devotion, and they'll never get angry again, and they'll never get upset again, right?
And they invest in that idealization, right?
And the next day, It's a weapon they can use against each other.
Because she's kind of bitchy and he's like, oh, so now I guess we're not going to live happily ever after.
It's a setup for future conflict.
For future disappointment, acting out, anger, frustration.
Right? Right.
Right. That's exactly right.
It's totally, totally accurate.
What's sort of coming up for me now, and it's interesting that it's occurring around this time of the year, which I don't know why, but I mean a lot of complex feelings which I don't know why, but I mean a lot of complex feelings around sort of the magic moment or whatever of the holiday season that was
Oh yeah. And this is, of course, my first holiday season without my family.
Right. So there are definitely some complex emotions surrounding that.
So I don't know if that has anything to do with it.
I mean, I'm sensing that it is based on your feelings.
Right, right.
I mean, Christmas...
Actually was a very big time for me and for my family.
Sorry, a very what time?
Big time for creating the picture-perfect family image.
Go to midnight mass at the church.
Right, where the same candlelight is similar to the scene in Twilight, right?
And it's like they're in a Christmas tree, right?
Yeah. Right.
Oh, wow. And, of course, just the fact that I was watching the movie in this time of year.
Right. And, uh, it's...
I mean, another...
Just, yeah, a lot of stuff's coming up right now.
Just, it's...
It was a time of having to pretend.
And, uh... I remember especially going up to my dad's parents' family and just dreading the fakeness of the gift exchange.
What do you mean? Everyone getting around and opening the gifts.
It all seemed very I mean, I wasn't conscious of this, but I felt it when I was younger.
Just... I didn't like all the acting.
Right. I was like, oh, thank you so, so much.
This is perfect. This is exactly what I wanted when it's like something...
Like an electric ice scooper or something like that.
Something that, of course, is not what you always wanted.
You're lying, right? And why are you lying?
Oh, to... Because you know the rage that's behind the guilt that's behind the present.
The guilt and the rage behind the present.
Right. Right.
So the magic moment of conciliation is there because if it's not there, the violence will occur, right?
The abuse or the manipulation or whatever, the negative experience will occur, right?
Right. If not now, then later.
Right. Right. Right, and of course, what happens right after, in the movie, what happens right after she says this, or he says this magic moment, or they have this magic moment, is the resumption of violence, right? Right, so the magic moment occurs, and then it's back to what 98% of the film was already about.
Right.
Violence, abuse, despair, destruction, slaughter, blood drinking, right?
Right.
It was-- And something that just sprung to my mind was, and I've mentioned this before, but I think it's got a context here that's helpful, that my brother and I, and my mother would sometimes stay in Ireland with my aunt and uncle, and my brother has a A strong, sort of, quote, respect for authority, right?
He's easily bossed around by authority figures.
And I don't remember this, but it became something that my mother would return to again and again, which was, apparently my brother left the cap off the toothpaste tube when he was brushing his teeth in the morning.
I guess we were seven or eight or whatever.
And my uncle said, fairly sternly, I hear, you know, You left the cap off the toothpaste tube, and apparently my brother ran up the stairs to fix it, to put the cap back on.
And for my mother, this became a standard of obedience for children, that all you should do is say it somewhat sternly, and your child should leap up to fix it, right?
Right. And so she had this ideal of the moment, right?
No context, right? That this guy was not abusive, that we were guests, that he was a male authority figure that we didn't have any real exposure to at home, so we didn't know what to do, so we just obeyed.
Like, he hadn't done anything to make us not want to obey him, right?
Whereas my mother, that's all she did, right?
Right. And so my mother would use this.
So whenever my brother would not do what she said or would resist her or would fight her or something like that, my mother would bring this up and it would enrage her.
Because she didn't get the obedience that my uncle did.
So this moment that had no context, she kept returning to in order to stoke up her own sense of anger and injustice.
And the fact that we were capable of obedience, but we just didn't want to obey her for some perverse reason that could never be explained, right?
That we were withholding obedience to my mother.
And it actually got to the point where she was sort of saying, and you obeyed him just to further humiliate me.
Oh my God. This magical moment of obedience with no context becomes something that she dreams of and fixates on in order to become more angry and abusive.
I don't want to make it about me, but I just thought that might be helpful.
Oh, it was totally, totally relevant.
I just know right now, even, my parents, I guarantee you, are using the picturesque pictures that they would put up of Christmas stuff that we would do, the family pictures and stuff like that, using those Christmas memories, whatever, as Well, he's capable of being part of a nice, loving family, but he's just withholding that from us, right?
Right. Do you see how it leads to the anger?
The out-of-context perfect moment leads to the rage.
The out-of-context perfect moment and untrue, right?
Well, it's untrue because it's out of context, right?
Right, right, right. No, that's exactly right.
And we see this sentimentalization as very common, right?
So you think of the...
I mean, to take a stereotypical image from movies or shows, right?
After a divorce, let's say the wife is looking at a picture of the wedding.
Oh, we were so happy back then, and she tears up, and so on, right?
And that's resentful, fundamentally, and it's no responsibility, right?
Yeah.
Yeah. Right.
Making the real context look out of context, and then the out of context look like that's the real context.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, how could we have come to this?
How did it get this bad?
How did it come to this?
Is what people say when referencing the perfect moment with no context.
The infinity of perfection in a transitory moment, right?
How did we end up like this?
Yeah, and saying how did we end up like this with tears and looking at pictures of a happy wedding and laughter and how did it come to this is no responsibility, right?
Right, right.
No, it's flooding it all off on me.
Yeah, or it's either on you or someone else or just on mysterious...
Outside forces, you know?
Like, it just wasn't meant to be.
It just didn't work out.
Right? Like, there's no responsibility.
It's just, you know, you're just holding your breath, hoping that it's going to work, right?
Right. No, exactly.
And what that does...
I'm sorry, go ahead.
I was just touching out one more example that just came to mind.
Shortly, a year ago, when all this stuff was coming to a head in my family, when I was living at home, I do remember very shortly before I left for Boston, my mom put out just on the coffee table, just let it sit there, a picture that my brother had drawn when he was in first grade or something like that.
It was like a poem, like, My dad is the best dad in the world.
And just all this stuff.
Sure, sure. And that's the, you know, looking for the perfection in the moment.
When my sister-in-law came to the board, she posted, you know, I remember you lying with your brother's head in your lap and watching movies and, you know, just these snapshots, right?
Right, right. And it's amazing how common that is now that you've pointed that out.
Right, right.
It's just amazing to me now just how common this tactic is in In letters we see on the board or letter shared privately, like, you know, through letters.
It's just amazing to be...
Oh, it's all the same.
Yeah, it's all the same. Sentiment...
It was in the Guardian article.
Sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was just saying it was in the Guardian article, things like that, with Tom's mom.
Mm-hmm. All right, go on.
Yeah, no, it's always the same.
It's the same pattern, right? A sentimental moment saying that is the reality, no context, followed by resentment, anger, and blame, if someone attempts to bring context to the matter, right?
I mean, it's as logically equivalent as, you know, some guy smokes for 40 years and he gets lung cancer, right?
And then someone says, it's a complete mystery, Why he got lung cancer?
Because I have a picture of him from 20 years ago when he's sleeping and there's no cigarette in his mouth.
So how could he have lung cancer?
And then you say, well, but he smoked for 40 years.
And they get angry and say, well, there's no point bringing up all that stuff.
Why play the blame game?
I'm just saying. Why air the dirty laundry, right?
Right! And it's like, but you're making the claim...
That you have a picture with him not smoking and therefore it's a complete mystery as to why he got lung cancer.
And I'm pointing out that it's not a complete mystery why he got lung cancer because he smoked for 40 years.
The fact that he didn't smoke while he was sleeping doesn't matter.
So it's a trap, right?
People say, I have an instance where everyone looks happy and therefore there could not have been any problems with the family.
And that's why Right?
Tom's mom put the childhood picture out, right?
To the paper. Right.
Here's a picture of him smiling and happy, therefore there were no family problems.
And you start to point out the family problems, and they immediately get angry, right?
In the same way, if you imagine stepping into where Bella is dancing with this vampire in the movie and saying, are you insane, sister?
You almost died.
You've got to get help.
You've got to see a therapist.
You've got to deal with these issues because you are going to end up living a absolutely freaky, sadistic, and brutalized existence.
She would immediately whirl on you.
You don't understand. I love him.
Just because you've never felt real love in your life, don't take that out on me.
We know the venom that's underneath that addiction to momentary perfection, right?
Right.
Okay, it's becoming a lot more clear than when you first brought it up to me, just how common that was in my family.
Oh, yeah, I guarantee it, right?
Oh, yeah.
And I think that's why it hits you, right?
Thank you.
Yeah, it was a pretty, it was a very, as it is right now, a very core and deep feeling.
Right, and that is an argument that we have all faced in dysfunctional families, right?
Right, right.
Which is the pose, right?
It's like the pose of the happy family.
You're forced into it.
And then it's used as evidence against you, with no context to the fact that you were forced into it.
Totally. And it's just...
I'm glad that this has come up now, in two weeks before Christmas, as an antibody against what I'm certain is going to come, if not externally, then internally.
The sentimentalization and so on?
Exactly. Right. Right.
Right. I think I needed that.
I think any defense I can get in terms of understanding the reality of what it is that's occurring with that, I think is crucial, I think.
Right. Right. And the metaphor, which also may be helpful, is if I force my daughter to marry some guy And then their marriage doesn't work out.
And I say, well, that's a real mystery.
And I force her to smile on her wedding day.
Because I show her the pictures and say, you were really happy here.
I don't know what happened with your marriage.
And she says, Dad, I was forced to marry this guy.
And I was forced to smile in these photos.
I will immediately get angry, right?
Because the whole thing is a propaganda exercise, right?
It's a Potemkin village, right?
It's not real.
It's photo op, it's staged, right?
Right, right, exactly.
And the moment you point out that it's staged, you get the rage, right?
Right, right.
Wow, it's just amazing how instantly and intensely I was transported in that moment to instances in my past where that has occurred for me.
Not from Edward DiBella, but from my parents to me.
Right. And I think the value...
I mean, obviously it's hugely valuable, right?
But the value...
you the reason I do these art things right this aesthetics review is because it seems less likely to me that if you hadn't had an intensely unconscious metaphorical examination of the movie that it would the channel would have been as open right
Right. Yeah, yeah.
And you were open to the family associations within the film, because that was all throughout the podcast, right?
Right, and then it was sort of like unlearning English.
Now that once you pointed out just all the family associations, it was like I couldn't see anything but that throughout the whole movie.
Right, right. And that helps your unconscious make these connections where you don't just end up feeling kind of diluted and sad, or you don't just...
Go home and, you know, stare at an empty hearth feeling like you want to throw yourself off a building, right?
It's not that unconscious, right?
It's more vivid. It's more connected.
The metaphorical connections happen in a more conscious way.
You're aware of the actual sentence where it occurs, right?
It's vivid. Whereas generally, if it's not the case, it's just a general feeling of, you know, or negativity or whatever, right?
Right. It's much more intangible.
Right, right. It's like having a GPS, right, rather than just looking at a map, right?
Right, right. Because it's going to affect us either way, right?
But the more conscious we are of the metaphors at work, the more we'll be able to pinpoint what our emotional reaction is and why.
Wow. Wow, that's amazing.
I'm... I'm feeling really happy that this all occurred with this movie for me now, just that I'm just really so glad that, well, first of all, I went to see it and then that I had this reaction and then talk with you about it, because I think this has opened up a lot of insights that I think would be worthy exploring.
Yeah, I think so. I think so.
Okay, well, let's stop here then because you've got a lot of juicy stuff to work with.
I'll send you a copy of this, right?
I mean, obviously because of the sensitivity, it should not be in the general stream, but do have a listen to it and let me know what you think.
I'll do that. All right, man.
I'll talk to you soon. All the best and great work.
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