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March 3, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:12:25
1289 Empathy Part Two - The Conference

The listener from 1287 continues to explore empathy.

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All right. So there will be baby sounds in the background, but I am all with the ears.
Lovely. Okay.
Well, let's see here.
So I wanted to just...
Originally, I was just going to talk with Jake, but I'm glad everybody's here now.
Because I just wanted to sort of, I guess, make sure that I'm...
Get some validation on some of the things I've been thinking about since Sunday because I've listened to the Colin show I guess like four times now because it was such a heavy concept for me and like sort of shocking but in a good way you know in the sense that it's like now I have something that I can really work on to improve my overall happiness and so I made some notes On some things I'm planning on doing that will sort of help me be more self-aware.
And I just kind of wanted to run them by everybody.
Is that cool? Cool.
So what I was thinking was that what I want to try to do is, like you were saying in the call steps, sort of the first thing that you want to do to sort of gain...
And sort of a natural empathy, you know, sort of get that back, is to identify when you're lost and sort of realize that you've lost empathy in a situation.
And because if you don't realize that, then you're not going to go searching for it again.
Right, and it's empathy with yourself that you lose first, right?
Right, right. You know, like the other day, I didn't even notice that...
I stopped, you know, feeling, you know, like I just suddenly was worried about, you know, feeling disappointed that I couldn't, you know, hang out with my friend when her grandmother died.
I mean, it's quite a thing to miss there, you know.
And so, like, you know, I'm going to start looking for the signs, like, you know, worrying a lot, having sort of shallow thoughts, repetitive thoughts.
Irritation, yeah. Yeah, like irritation at myself, sort of self-attacking, kind of if I catch myself sort of trying to script myself like I was doing about a bajillion times in the Colin show.
And also, sorry, just this one I forgot to mention, which I thought of afterwards.
Sure. A feeling of entitlement is usually associated with a lack of self-empathy, right?
Like I'm entitled to an evening out with my friend, and when I don't get it, That's bad, you know, that feeling rather than flexibility in response to the situation, there's this feeling of entitlement that often goes with that.
Right, right. Okay, yeah, that's interesting.
I mean, I fight that too, right, because I try and do stuff to do with FDR and then, you know, Isabella's up or Christina needs to take a nap because she's up all night or whatever, right?
And I feel, well, I'm entitled to do FDRs, you know, and it's not true, right?
I mean, it's obviously not a reality, but it's something that...
So, yeah, I mean, that feeling of entitlement is common to that.
But, sorry, don't let me interrupt.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, thinking back, I think I probably did have that sort of feeling a little bit.
Yeah, I think I did a little bit.
So, yeah, it's good.
That's another thing I'll look for.
And so, yeah, so if I see these signs...
I'm going to try to recognize it.
Just go, oh, you know what?
This is kind of looking like you're not really empathizing with yourself.
And then just sort of try to retrace my steps and sort of figure out what did I feel initially and when did I sort of lose that?
And then when do I last remember?
I think what you said in the show, when did I last know where I was?
And then see if I can sort of identify what changed.
And then, if I can do that, then you said, extract the principle that is causing irritation.
And this was the part that really hit me hard in the show.
Because, you know, obviously in the example with my friend the other day, I stopped...
Feeling empathy and her emotions like you said were kind of causing me inconvenience and then ask the question You know who would have taught me that somebody else's strong feelings are inconvenient and so to see if I can work with how the loss the dissociation Might be related to something in my past and like, you know sort of ask myself questions I kind of like the idea of sort of being sort of Socratic with myself, you know, sure and And let me just put one other thing as well.
It's just a minor wrinkle because I never get everything across in one conversation.
But sorry, if you're just in the middle of a thought, I can ask it afterwards.
I don't want to interrupt if you're in a flow.
No, I mean, it's basically just that I had said what I was going to say, at least for that section of it, yeah.
Okay, now let's call this friend of yours Mary.
When Mary told you that her grandmother had died...
Did you feel that she was emotionally connected to herself or the situation?
It's hard to say. She told me via text message.
But she did say, as I recall, she had been having some other issues.
And she said, on top of everything else, I just got a call.
She was having some issues with school and stuff.
And she was like, on top of everything else that's been going on in my life, it looks like my grandmother is going to pass away tonight.
Which I don't know if that's...
That's interesting. That's a very interesting way of putting it.
Yeah, because it's almost like it's just another thing on the checklist, sort of.
Well, her first way of phrasing it is, and people tell me if I'm being too harsh here, but her first way of phrasing it is, On top of all my other inconveniences.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, like this couldn't have come at a more inconvenient time because I've got all these other things.
Yeah, I would imagine that it's probably still slightly more inconvenient for her grandmother.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I would imagine that too.
And that's interesting because sometimes, I mean, dissociation is highly contagious.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I would imagine that.
This seems to make sense to me, because it's like if somebody else is dissociating, then you can kind of...
It's almost like it gives your false self a chance to say, oh, good, so I can too.
Well, yeah, and there's that, and then there's also, what do you do in that situation, right?
Do you call the person on her dissociation and say, well, wait a sec, how are you feeling about this?
Yeah. I'm not sure I understand what you feel, right?
And that can be highly volatile, right?
How about that? Oh, no problem.
No problem. I guess that we lost Jake and Hannah.
Oh, really? Yeah, yeah.
Alright, I'll put him back in.
Here, I'm going to send you...
That's Corey, my friend.
Hopefully he'll be able to get involved too.
He's very interested in what's going on.
Did you get that IM? Yeah, I'm calling him back.
Okay, cool. Hello?
Hey, Corey. Oh, it works.
Hello. Sorry about that.
Okay, so where were we?
I don't remember. Well, we were talking about your friend and her...
the way that she expressed...
You know, on top of everything else, right?
Right. Which is an interesting way to put it, right?
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
So what did you feel when you saw that text message or that way of talking about this death?
Yeah, I mean, the...
I'm trying to think. I mean, the first thing I thought, as I said in the call-in show, is I just thought, oh, that's awful.
And I just kind of felt, like, I guess I just sort of read it sort of literally and was like, wow, you must have a lot going on.
Maybe there's stuff going on that you haven't talked to me about.
Because that was actually my initial reaction, I think.
Because I was like, I don't think you would talk about that so lightly unless there's something else going on that I'm unaware of.
So I just figured, man, there's so much going on for this girl right now.
Right, but you see how the way she expressed it seemed to be that it's inconvenient to me, and then what you felt was that not being able to meet up with her was inconvenient to you.
Yeah, I mean, that's eventually what I felt pretty soon after, yeah.
But you see that transfer, right?
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
When other people are separated from their feelings, it is very hard to stay connected to our own feelings, because there's an implicit threat, there's an implicit aggression when other people are dissociated.
Because aggression, not assertiveness, but aggression requires dissociation.
So dissociation is a precursor to aggression, or at least it is a necessary but not sufficient criterion for aggression.
Right, right. Is this kind of related to, I think this is what you were saying about what happens when you fake empathy?
Like, you know, the person will sort of say to themselves, you know, like, oh, this person said empathetic things to me, but I didn't really feel like they were empathetic, so maybe I'm just cold and, you know, start, you know, going back at themselves.
Is that sort of related to what you're talking about here with dissociation sort of spreading?
Yeah. Well, there's a certain...
Yeah, there certainly is that aspect to it, but in this particular case, I mean, again, if somebody had called me up and said, you know, on top of everything else, my grandmother is going to die tonight, right?
Right. I would...
I mean, my first reaction would be, I'm sorry, I don't understand.
Do you feel that it's inconvenient to you that your grandmother is dying?
Right, yeah. And what would the response be?
Uh... Yeah, I mean, it would probably be, hopefully it would be them sort of going, like sort of falling out of a little bit of a sleep there and saying, wow, actually, you know, the magnitude of this is a little bit bigger than I'm portraying it or something.
Yeah, but what would really happen?
They would... I don't know, maybe try to do some ex post facto justification for why they said that or something?
Well, imagine calling this friend of yours up and having this aspect of the conversation.
How would she react? Huh.
I'm trying to... Oh, you know.
I know, I know, somewhere.
Let's see if I can find it.
Let's see.
I mean, she would maybe start talking about her other things that are also bothering her at the moment?
Okay, and then you would interrupt and say, look, I'm kind of baffled here because your grandmother is dying and you're talking about other issues, like it's all about you?
Yeah. And then what would she say?
Uh, then she'd probably get aggressive, I would think.
Yeah. And we know this because you haven't had this conversation with her.
Right.
Right, right, right.
Oh, you know what?
I looked up the text message because I wanted to make sure I was representing this correctly.
And it's not, I don't think it's quite as bad.
She said, she said, hey, Phil, as if things couldn't get any worse, my grandmother is in the hospital.
Which still is similar, but it's not exactly how I portrayed it.
I didn't remember it correctly.
It's, you know, substance is the same, although the wording is a little different.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that is pretty much the same substance, so yeah.
And have you had any contact with her since?
Um... No, no, we haven't.
Because I didn't really want to, uh...
It was like you were talking, we were talking about on Sunday, I didn't want to...
Like, I felt, I wanted to, like, sort of, like, but I thought, you know, I should probably...
I kind of wanted to think more about this whole situation with empathy for myself first before getting too involved.
And what is her relationship to philosophy and psychology or self-knowledge or wisdom or whatever you'd want to call it?
Well, I mean, I don't think that she studied it a lot.
I don't think that she studied it a lot, but At the same time, I've had a couple conversations with her, which is the reason why I wanted to meet with her again, because I've met with her a couple times and she's been very non-defensive when I would bring up some of the things that I believe in.
So, you know, not hugely philosophically inclined, but also seems to have a lot of natural ability for it, I would say.
And her degree of self-knowledge, would you say?
I think it's getting better.
She was in a long relationship with a romantic relationship with a guy who I knew and kind of the whole time thought was not really a good relationship.
And she only sort of just now, like two years into it, sort of realized it.
What was not good about it? Well, he was the type of guy who, and again, this is just totally me theorizing here, but it just seemed like he cared more about them being together than her, so to speak.
I'm sure you've seen that at some point.
He was more interested in the relationship, again, in my opinion, more interested in the relationship than interested in her being as an individual.
And you could tell this by certain things he would say, like she told me that he said to her once, and hopefully I'm getting this quote accurate, that when they're at a party together and she sees I'm with other people, he gets really jealous and sad and thinks, you know, why don't you show that towards me?
And it's kind of like, you know, I was just thinking to myself, well, Shouldn't you be happy that your girlfriend is having a good time?
Sorry, I just want to make sure I understand.
So when they're at a party, and she's having fun with other people, he gets depressed and anxious?
Yeah, yeah, and jealous, apparently, he even said.
Okay, what does that tell you about him?
That he doesn't trust her.
But no, but about his personality.
Um, well, that, uh, he is, um...
I mean, he doesn't seem to...
I'm trying to think of the best way to put this.
I mean, he's very...
We're on a general call, I mean, if other people have thoughts about this.
Oh, sure. Well, low self-esteem.
Well, I think it's almost negative self-esteem, right?
Because it's kind of toxic to others.
Right. And so this is where this boyfriend was, and she was with him for two years, right?
Which tells you something about where she's at, right?
Right, yeah. And what does it tell you about where she's at?
Well, I mean, from what I've talked to her about it, she definitely realizes this stuff now.
But she's definitely in a sort of...
What she said was she's trying to become more of an individual now, but she's still, I think, trying to raise her own self-esteem.
So she also probably had pretty low self-esteem.
For a good period of time, and hopefully she's turning that around.
And how is she turning that around?
Well, the thing that sort of stuck out to me and how she's sort of turning it around is I just sort of pointed out a few of these things and just said, you know, like, this just doesn't strike me as a good, you know, relationship if these types of things are happening, you know, like I was Very nice about it.
She didn't get defensive and said, you know, and I said, because to me it seems like the truth of the situation is more important than what we want to happen.
You know, like, sure, we'd love for, you know, a magic wand to be waved and you and your boyfriend can now have a great relationship, but, I mean, that would be ignoring the truth.
And she said, yeah, the truth is definitely more important than that.
And, you know, I thought that that was at least a step in the right direction that she's willing to, you know, Look at more of the facts of the situation.
Sorry to interrupt, but how long have you been talking?
In total, how much time do you think you've spent discussing the flaws in her prior relationship?
I mean, we got together, I guess, two or three months ago.
And we talked for a while at that point, and that's why she was sort of at the tail end of it.
And then we talked like two more times since then, maybe in total like three or four hours overall.
Okay, so three or four hours, right?
And how many podcasts do you think you've listened to?
How many podcasts have I listened to?
750 or so.
Okay, so she's basically, let's assume Oh, let's assume that your conversation with her is of equal impact to listening to a podcast, and maybe it's more or whatever, right?
But she's still at 1% of what you've done, right?
Uh, sure.
Just in pure time, yeah.
Well, there's no other magic, right?
Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah.
And, um...
Of course, the reason that she would end up with a guy like this is almost certainly because of her family history, right?
Yes. Yeah, I mean, it's extremely likely that's what it is, yeah.
And would you say that you and she have similar self-esteem, or would you say yours is higher, or would you say hers is higher?
I mean, I would say that at the moment mine is higher, yeah.
How much higher? Just percentage roughly?
Let's say 10% higher, perhaps.
Okay, so basically she's done 1% of the work and achieved 90% of the benefit, right?
Well, I mean, I'm not suggesting that she's at 100% self-esteem now.
No, but she's 10% lower than yours, right?
Oh, okay.
So you're saying that I'm 100% self-esteem?
No, it doesn't matter whether you're...
Let's say you're 70% and she's 60%.
I don't know, but let's just make it up, right?
Oh, okay. All right, sure.
Let's go with that. And she's not gone to therapy, right?
I don't believe so, no.
And you have? A couple times.
I just started. Okay.
And she's not... Really got into psychology or philosophy or values or anything like that.
And this is not a criticism, it's just where we're starting from, right?
Right, yeah. Nothing major in those realms, no.
Right. So, where do you think that you started from?
I mean, I would assume that philosophy and psychology has had some effect on raising your self-esteem, would you say?
Oh yeah, definitely. Okay, so let's say you're at 70 and she's at 60, just to make up some numbers.
Where do you think you started from, and where do you think she started from?
I started pretty low.
Maybe 20% self-esteem, let's just say.
Sure. No problem. No problem at all.
And again, these are all just rough.
I mean, it's completely rough. Right.
I see what you're going for.
Let's just say she started higher than me, because I think a lot of people probably did.
And let's say she started at, I don't know, 40% self-esteem or something.
And how long have you been working on self-knowledge, philosophy, psychology?
I guess, when did I read Atlas Shrugged?
September of 2007.
So, I guess a year and a half or so.
Okay, so in a year and a half of pretty dedicated effort, you've gone from 20 to 70 or whatever, right?
Yeah, that sounds about right.
And she's gone from 40 to 60?
Sure, let's say that.
Okay. And I mean, I... I don't know if this is accurate.
No, of course, but these are relative measures, right?
Sure. I mean, so do you see the problems with this?
Yeah, it seems like more of a jump for her considering the amount of time that I put into it compared to her.
I can say that I'm feeling...
I feel frustrated right now.
I think because, like...
The natural thing that I want to think right now is like...
Well, actually, no, I'm making...
The thing that I want to think is based on some assumptions, I think, and I don't want to assume that that's what you're going for.
So let's just continue on.
Well, that's a good point.
I mean, how do other people feel about this line of questioning?
Sure.
Well, I think this is going somewhere.
I mean, I just also wanted to ask, maybe as an additional question, just for clarification, she's still with the other guy.
Is that right? No, they broke up.
No. They did break up.
Okay. And when did that happen?
Oh, geez. A couple of months ago, you said, I think.
She was just in the tail. Yeah, it was like a month to two months ago or something like that.
And did she break up with him?
Yes. Okay.
Sorry, Jake. Go ahead. No, that was, I just wanted to get clear in my mind.
So she just decided this is, she ended the relationship a couple of months ago?
A month or two ago. Yeah.
Right, okay. Sorry, just clarifying that.
No problem.
Anyone else have any thoughts or questions about this line of questioning?
Does anyone have any thoughts about why I'm asking all these questions, annoying as they are?
Well, I guess even where we started on this was that, you know, when Phil talked to her, the whole beginning of this was a significant kind of dissociation the whole beginning of this was a significant kind of dissociation in the way that she talked about, you know, the inconvenience of her grandmother's impending
And I think at least my guess is in terms of where you're going on this is what exactly, what's going on between Phil and this person and how has his emotional response has been affected by her?
Yeah.
I think that's an important aspect but that's not exactly what I'm asking and what I'm asking is actually I think pretty relevant to everyone.
and certainly is relevant to me, so hopefully we'll have some utility.
I think what you're saying there, Jake, certainly has some relevance.
Well, if in the last four to eight weeks, Phil, she's gone from 40% to 60% self-esteem, and in the she's gone from 40% to 60% self-esteem, and in the past 18 months you've gone from 20% to 70%, then either you're doing something very wrong or she's doing something wrong.
Right, right.
- Right, just this makes sense, right?
- Certainly, yeah. - In which case, like if there's a shortcut, we should talk to her, right?
- Yeah.
- No, seriously.
Seriously, if she can double her self-esteem in four to eight weeks without going to therapy and without doing any particular form of self-examination based on a couple hours' conversation with you, she should absolutely be running FDR, right?
Because I'm the worst incompetent guy for change that could be conceivably imagined.
And I don't say this with any personal stake in it, right?
I'm just saying if it's true, right?
Yeah, yeah. Right?
Because, I mean, normally it takes people a long time to lose weight, right?
And if she's got a way of losing weight, of going from 300 pounds to 150 pounds in four to eight weeks, in other words, doubling her weight loss efficacy, then we should talk to her rather than to the rest of us who, you know, it's slow and it's difficult and it's, you know, one step forward, three steps sideways, two steps backwards, one catapult forward, that kind of stuff, right?
Right, right, yeah.
I mean, I follow you. It seems much more likely that it's just not true.
Well, and the reason that I'm saying this is that I'm trying to help protect your self-esteem.
When something is very hard for everyone that you know, the moment that you think it's easy for someone, you denigrate yourself.
Okay, yeah, all right, let me write that down.
Does that make sense to everyone?
Definitely. Yeah, it makes sense to me, for sure.
I mean, I don't think there's an easier way to do what we're doing.
I mean, if I did, I would do that, right?
Yeah, yeah. And I just wanted to say, on that point, at the beginning of this call, what struck me was that we started off this call very much like, Phil, you were sort of saying, right, okay, Here's my plan.
I'm going to look out for this.
I'm going to look out for that.
I'm going to catch this. And it was like, basically, it was very much, you know, action steps.
And the only thing that I sort of, you know, since we're talking about empathy, I just wondered what the feelings were between the call and this call.
Because, you know...
Certainly in terms of where we've landed now with this sort of issue of you having a view that she's kind of, I don't know, leapt ahead in self-esteem, your action plan feels a little bit like, blimey, I've got to catch up, you know what I mean?
It's assuming that she is the person that you should be applying your empathy attentions to, right?
Right, right. And if she's not, then it's going to fail, right?
If she's not capable of significant growth, self-empathy, understanding, patience, and so on, then your attempt to empathize with her is going to fail, right?
Yes. Right, yeah, because if I'm overestimating her...
Like, I'm suggesting that she's basically the person who's speaking out better than all of us, then I'm not going to be able to empathize with her correctly.
You can only learn Mandarin with somebody who speaks Mandarin, right?
You can't learn Mandarin with someone who doesn't speak Mandarin, right?
You can only learn empathy with somebody who speaks empathy, right?
Right, yeah. Otherwise, she's going to interfere, she's going to get aggressive, she's going to push back, and lo and behold, you'll fail, right?
Right, right, yeah.
Yeah, I should probably, or yeah, it's funny because you're saying this now and it's like, that feels a lot more correct to me, you know.
Right, because you assumed a value here that was worth pursuing, which was pursuing empathy with this woman, and that's not starting from the scratch, right?
Starting from scratch is, is this a good idea at all, right?
Not, how do I achieve this?
Not, how do I get to Las Vegas?
But, is it even wise to go to Las Vegas, right?
Right. Right, right.
And there's a more foundational question here to me, in my opinion, right?
Okay. Which is that it would seem that you view yourself as broken relative to the majority.
Right? Like everyone's playing basketball, you rolled up in a wheelchair, you're trying to get out to join the basketball game, right?
Yeah, I mean, I've been feeling that less and less.
As time goes on, but it's still definitely an issue for me.
Yeah. Well, if this is feeling it less, I'm glad you're feeling it less, but you're still feeling it a lot, right?
Right, definitely. I mean, I definitely have a...
It's not necessarily for the knowledge, but for the capacity to gain the knowledge.
I always think that everybody else is going to get this stuff faster than I did.
You know? Like, assuming they're not, you know, just...
Completely defeated by their parents, but you know...
And so, what's the evidence that there's people who get it faster than you?
Well... Right, we like to be empirical, right?
Yeah, I mean, actually, there is some fairly good evidence in my one roommate who...
He's picked up on a lot of this stuff, like, way faster than I did.
Because I live with him, so I've seen him, he was sort of a minarchist and figured out anarchy a lot faster than I did.
Yeah, we're not talking political philosophy, right?
Well, right, yeah. I mean, I would say that in that realm, I haven't seen it, because I haven't even really achieved it myself.
Achieved what? You know, a more natural empathy that has less dissociation.
I'm a little bit lost right now.
I feel like I can't take action or anything without getting really confused.
And I just wondered whether or not that was in any way related to this.
Like, you know, what was going on for you?
Yeah, I mean, the day of the call and also, you know, probably the 24 hours after that, I was...
I had two sort of major feelings.
One was that...
One was just that I was totally confused.
And I was very...
I was kind of scared a little bit.
But I also felt this sort of excitement because I thought this is a new horizon that I can sort of look into.
But I... I really needed to listen to the call again so that I could sort of get a better idea, just understand it better, and that's kind of what I did.
As soon as it was available, I listened to it like three or four times, which is an inconsiderable amount of time considering it's about an hour and a half.
I took notes, and then I started to feel a lot better, and I started to feel more excitement and less fear and more anger Just at realizing how, you know, I felt really angry at my parents.
And, you know, that's sort of a general overview of the emotions I had since the fall on Sunday, if that makes sense.
Right. No, and that makes perfect sense to me.
Sorry, Jake. That was really it.
I just wondered, though, so what was it that you were thinking about with this anger?
What was that? I think it was just the whole...
I mean, there's a sadness and anger when I think about the part of the call where Steph said, who taught me that someone else's strong feelings are inconvenient?
And then reminding myself that I should never have been treated like my strong emotions We're an inconvenience.
And that just made me very angry and sad to think that that did in fact happen for, you know, most of my life.
And that is a terrible thing.
And what it's going to leave you with, Phil, is a predilection for people who treat you that way.
That's the Simon the Boxer, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Right, so if this was unconscious for you before, And this is what I think you're avoiding, right?
And it makes perfect sense that you would avoid it, and maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I think.
That the relationships that we come into with unconscious baggage rarely survive the awakening to consciousness, right?
Right. Yeah.
So, if you did not know that you had a predilection for people who Found your feelings inconvenient, then it's very likely that the people in your life at the moment are part of that recreation, right? Right.
Right. And so, does this woman, do you think, would she find your strong feelings to be inconvenient?
Uh... I'm finding that difficult to answer because it's like she's sort of I'm kind of in this stage with her where it's like she's shown she's shown some like I feel like she's like a new member at FDR or something like that like how I would sort of look at somebody who's a new member at FDR you know it's like I don't want to go,
well, you haven't learned about X, Y, and Z in relation to philosophy, and so therefore I'm going to assume that you have little capacity to consider my feelings important and for me to consider your feelings important.
It's kind of like I have a strong desire to say, well, you've shown some potential here to really get some of these ideas.
I'm very interested in continuing to talk to you about this.
And so, maybe as time goes on, you would.
The answer to your question is, I think right now, she might consider my feelings...
It's likely she would consider my strong emotions to be inconvenient.
But I don't know if that would always be the case, if that makes sense.
Alright, and...
And that's, you know, reasonable, of course, right?
And to what degree has she striven to understand this fairly disastrous relationship she was in a month or two ago for two years, she said?
Yeah. I mean, she's talked to me twice about it.
Well, three times, once before it was over, and then twice since.
And I, uh...
I, um...
I don't know about her other, you know, other people she's talked to.
Okay, let me ask you this then.
What does she think about your separation from your family?
She said that, well, I said to her, it's kind of funny, when I don't sort of feel like dealing with people, like hearing them say, but they're your family or whatever, I just say, well, they were jerks, and I don't like them.
Right. And I said that to her and she was like, well, fair play.
All right. You know, like, that's...
If they're jerks, then...
You know, because I said, just trust me, they were not good people.
And she was like, well, yeah, they're not good people.
And then what? What did she say then?
I mean, she didn't pursue it any further.
And what does that tell you?
Um... That maybe my strong emotions are inconvenient to her?
Well, I think that's one possible thesis.
What do other people think? I mean, you had a couple of conversations with her, four hours of conversations with her about a breakup, right?
Sure, yeah. But she just shrugs off your family separation.
Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty sure that when we talked about it, I don't think, I mean, maybe this is something that's indicative about me, but I don't think I wanted to talk about it.
Oh, you absolutely want to talk about it.
If you have someone who's going to listen and be sympathetic and empathetic and curious, you absolutely, this is the biggest thing that's happened to you, right?
Right, yeah. So, I mean, the fact that I, you know, was sort of trying to avoid the topic is probably me picking up on the fact that she wasn't going to be too receptive.
Well, yeah. Or, you know, if you say, oh, they were jerks, right?
Then I think a sensitive person who cared about you would say, wow, that's a really tough thing to do.
Tell me more about it.
Right. Right.
So even if you say, ah, it's nothing, right?
Somebody who cares, right, will recognize that it's not that light and will ask you more, right?
Yeah, that's definitely true.
It's definitely true. And she didn't.
She was like, eh. Yeah.
Now, again, I still find myself wanting to sort of think about what I would have done pre-philosophy, and it probably would have been something very similar.
You know, it still might be something I would do, you know, in terms of dissociating from a situation like that.
Well, sure, maybe, but then you need to work on On that yourself, and you certainly need to not have people around who are going to do the same thing, right?
Because that just reinforces bad habits, right?
Like, if you want to quit drinking, you can't hang around drinkers, right?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I just worry about becoming too much of a loner.
Although, I mean... Well, that's the fear, right?
And that's what I was trying to say. This is what you're trying to avoid.
We like to think that we're rejoining the herd Right?
So that we don't have to feel like we are going far ahead.
Right? Where it's lonely.
Right. Right.
Yeah. I mean, it's one of the reasons I'm very happy that Greg is going to come move in.
I think that's going to be very good For both of us, actually.
Because, I mean, I know that he's an empathetic person, you know?
Right. I've been thinking about that a lot, actually.
I mean, it's like... I just feel like living with him is going to really help me...
Because it's like I have an example sort of right in front of me of somebody who really knows how to empathize.
And that's going to be really inspirational for me, I think, you know?
Yeah. And of course, the fact that you've been thinking about this for hours and talking about this relationship with your friend for hours without actually having your friend in the conversation tells a lot too, right?
Right, right.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, my suggestion, at least what worked for me, this is my little speech, get comfortable.
If you're going to forge ahead to individuation, to self-knowledge, to wisdom, to self-empathy, to the strength of that kind of integrity and virtue, then hit the afterburners.
Don't circle back.
Don't hang around with people.
Don't try and get other people To join up.
Don't try and push and prod and poke other people to come along.
Because then you end up in the worst of both worlds.
You're half-individuated, which means you can't connect with the masses.
But you're not individuated enough where you can really connect with someone else, right?
Who's along the same path.
And we don't want to let go of that old world, of the general world, of the common world, right?
We think we can have one foot on the boat and one foot on the pier, right?
And the faster that we can let go of the illusion that we're getting out of a wheelchair to join a basketball game, the faster we can actually get to new intimacy.
But if you think that you can, with a little bit of pushing and prodding, so to speak, with this friend, turn her into you, You're gonna get stuck between these two worlds.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, it's really discouraging for me.
It's horrible. It's absolutely horrible, completely discouraging, entirely depressing and far better than the alternative of trying to hang around trying to get other people To come along, right? Because 99.9% of them don't want to come along.
And will say that there's nothing wrong.
Right? So this girl would say, oh, you know, I was just a bit snappy.
Why are you making such a big deal out of it, right?
I was just stressed, right?
What's the big deal? No big problem.
Nothing. That's why we have the internet, Phil.
Well, and it works.
Sorry to interrupt. I mean, you have to just hit the afterburners.
You've got to live in the world or you've got to go to the stars.
You don't want to just sit in this orbit, right?
Well, you're neither on the world nor exploring the universe, right?
Right, right. And we feel a desire to go into the future to create a new kind of Authenticity, I think.
At least that's my goal.
That's what I've been talking about.
To create a new kind of honesty, a new kind of virtue, a new kind of intimacy.
Or, I would say, the only kind that's real.
And we're tentative, right?
You know, I'll take another step, but I have to look back and make sure I'm not alone.
Right, right. Because I think about it, like when you're saying this, I mean, the good people that I talk to, I don't feel like I'm pulling them.
No, that's right.
They're doing it, like, if they're into it, because they like it, they love it too, you know, and they're not resisting.
Right, and you understand that with this woman, you suppress your honesty and your feelings enormously.
Yeah, and like, without even noticing it on many occasions, you know.
Right, and Right, so that's a bad habit, in my opinion, right?
Because it's a kind of self-manipulation, dishonesty, self-management, as Jake was saying, the action plan, right?
Right. That's not authenticity, that's not comfortable in your own skin, that's not the easy give and take of what I would call an intimate and mature relationship.
It's not self-expressed, it's not authentic, it's not open, it's not RTR, it's not blah blah blah, right?
And it's also not UPB, right?
Because it's like, well, it takes thousands of hours and years for me to, you know, move myself out of the swamp, but other people seem to dance out of it like elves with afterburners, right?
Right, right.
In other words, I'm crippled and broken and other people are very agile, right?
I'm Frankenstein and they're Nijinsky or Baryshnikov, right?
Yeah. Which is self-humiliating, right?
And it makes you feel like the odd one out, so to speak, right?
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And I mean, the only thing I wonder is like, I mean, do I only meet new people through FDR? No, no, that's the thing.
When you aim at yourself, you'll find the right people.
Good point, yeah. When you aim to be who you really are, self-expressed, honest, and open, you will meet the right people.
Because they're just as scared as you are.
Right? The few lonely souls who have decided to break from the herd and become themselves are going through or have gone through exactly the same thing.
Right? And if you aim at yourself and confidently go out into the world...
As an authentic human being, as a true, honest, open, deep and virtuous human being, people will see you.
The right people will see you.
Yeah, yeah. Now, the thing that is sort of, you know, catching, going across my mind right now, is that, I guess the question would be, is it possible that because I'm sort of in this sort of...
You know, sort of training phase, as we were talking about on Sunday, in terms of philosophy and empathy, in terms of my own mind, and just being self-aware.
I mean, I'm like, you know, thinking of two people who I actually tangibly see all the time, who I'm very natural with, one of them being Corey, who's on the call right now, and another one of my friends.
And they're totally natural, and like I can't really think of anybody else in my life who is.
Am I just incorrect?
Are these people not actually good?
I know, Corey, you're listening right now.
I don't think you're a bad guy at all.
I think you're wonderful. Is it possible that some of my true self was getting through and understanding that these two people were good people?
Well, of course, what you do is, I can't answer for them, and I don't know the relationships.
I don't know, right? But certainly in a transitional phase, we'll have both people in our lives, right?
And unfortunately, our sexual natures, our romantic drives, so to speak, will point us back into history, right?
Yeah, yeah. Right, and we'll say, well, she's pretty much self-actualizable because I'm horny, right?
I'm sure she's fine. She's got growth potential because I have a growth, right?
Oh, boy. No, that never would happen.
No, no, never. It's impossible.
I mean, the church understands this, right?
That's why they indoctrinate the women so much, so that the men who want to get married or just have a girlfriend have to become Christians.
I mean, they keep hold of the fertile women, so that's right, yeah.
Yeah, huh. That's pretty interesting.
I wonder if that kind of worked on my dad, I guess.
Yeah, I mean, maybe. But this is why men are allowed to stray, but women have to stay close to the church, right?
I mean, in these kinds of relationships, right?
Yeah. And this is what I was just reading in the beginning of On Truth the other day.
It's kind of true, right? This is going to mess up your life, right?
As you know it. Yeah, I mean, in many ways it already has, but it's like, you know...
And I mean, mostly in a very good way, but yeah.
Yeah, but what you, you know, and it's just what I say at the end, like, you've got to cross this desert, right?
And to me, the way to cross the desert is just push on, right?
Not, I'm going to go 200 yards into the desert and then come back, and then I'm going to go 250 and then come back, and then I'm going to go through.
That's just exhausting, right?
Right, definitely. And at some point, it's just going to be shorter to keep going than to come back, right?
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely.
And that's my strong suggestion, right?
Just hit the afterburners, be alert to the reality that there are very few people in the world who have a desire or compulsion for truth, authenticity, and honesty in the kind of way that we talk about, right? And it's not just us, but lots of people talk about it.
But there are very few people who do that, right?
Which is why you don't want to waste time with people who aren't doing it.
Right, right.
Yeah, I don't know. Sort of think of it like this.
You've seen Indiana Jones, right?
First one? Actually, I'm like the one person in America.
Did you see the new one? No, no.
Well, you didn't miss anything. It sucked.
But at the end, they hide this treasure in this big room full of, you know, 20,000 boxes.
Okay. Right? And what people do is they say, okay, well, maybe one out of a thousand of these boxes has in it a person who is authentic or interested or, you know, on their way or whatever, right?
And so what they do is we laboriously pick the lock of every...
Box we come across, right?
Right. And it takes forever, right?
And the odds, if you find that one in a thousand, are almost nil, right?
Right. If you take that approach, right?
Right. But philosophy, psychology, that gives you this x-ray device, right?
You don't have to pick every lock, right?
You've got an x-ray. Right.
And so it lets you scan, right?
But as long as you're sitting there saying, well, this is really complicated, I can pick these locks, right?
But it took about 15 minutes of questions, not even, maybe 10, for you to, or at least for me to realize that this woman was very unlikely to be going along the path that you're going along.
Right, right. That's x-ray, right?
Yeah, yeah. Not, well, I like having someone to hang out with, I find her attractive, she's broken up with this guy, maybe there's a chance, so I'm going to, right, try and lead her along.
Right, right, yeah.
Right, the world is what it is, not what we want it to be, right?
Yeah, definitely, and I think I'll just, you know, I'll know...
I'll know the people as it goes on, you know, as I get better.
No, no, you already know about this woman.
This is what I'm trying to tell you.
Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. I mean, I'm not talking about her, just in general, like new people I meet, you know.
No, but let's talk about her for just a sec, right?
Because you're talking about her, not to her, right?
Because she didn't respond to the greatest emotional tragedy of your life, which was family stuff, right?
Mm-hmm. Because she was involved for two years with a pretty corrosively insecure and jealous guy, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And she has not said, dear God, I have to fix this.
I don't know what the hell's wrong with me.
She's not in a panic about that, right?
Right, yeah. Let...
Less than a panic, yeah.
Right, and she talks about her grandmother's death, to whatever degree we can say, as inconvenient to her, right?
Uh-huh. And because she infects you with dissociation and entitlement, right?
Right, right, we've seen that, yeah.
So the x-ray vision is not showing the treasure in there.
Yeah, you already see perfectly clearly, right?
Yeah, yeah. You just don't like it, right?
Yeah. It's kind of like, no, can't you just be better than what I'm seeing?
Right, right.
But you see, the degree to which you elevate her is the degree to which you denigrate yourself.
That's what troubles me the most.
Right, yeah.
Yeah, and that's something to really be aware of, because I totally get what you're saying there, you know?
Whew. Yeah.
Right? If you're going to go forward to self-knowledge, authenticity, truth, honesty, blah, blah, blah, you can't be putting yourself down.
Right. Right. Definitely.
Definitely. I mean, you will, like we all do, right?
But you have to catch it, right?
Right, definitely, definitely.
You know, it's funny, just as you're thinking of this, the thing that keeps popping into my mind is how much sort of, you know, being nice I sort of took as a virtue for so much of my life.
Because I'm just thinking of this girl, and it means she's a very nice girl in a sense, in terms of pleasantries and politeness.
But it's just kind of funny how I'm looking at it, though, and the way you've asked these questions, it's just like, It's like so transparent, now that I've sort of put this thought process to it, to the situation, it's so transparent that it's just, I'm not going to find value in this relationship, you know? Or at least it's extremely unlikely, you know?
Yeah, I mean, I would certainly, you know, in terms of investment, I would...
You understand, you're not even dating, you already have a lot of problems, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, you don't even get a honeymoon before dating, right?
Right, yeah.
Yeah. We're not broken, and we're not trying to rejoin a healthy herd, right?
This is not rehabilitation, right?
This is Olympic training.
Yeah, and I do feel like that.
This is not surgery, this is steroids, right?
Yeah. And it's not easy for anyone.
Right, and that I think is important for me to remember.
Yeah, I mean, if Michael Phelps won eight golds because he trained seven days a week instead of six, right?
Yeah, yeah. Everybody else trains six days a week.
He trains seven days a week, so of course he gets stronger, right?
Yeah, I remember Elvin Jones, this great jazz drummer who I really liked when I was younger.
He practiced like 13 hours a day, like seven days a week.
Right. And I remember him saying at a concert I saw before he died, he was just like, well, you know, It was just like everybody else took Sunday off.
So I could get all that time to sort of get ahead of them.
You know? And it's kind of...
It was that kind of mentality.
I remember being amazed at that because I never had that commitment on the drums.
But, you know, it was really cool to see in a sense, yeah.
I have that commitment on the drumsticks, but that's a little of the food.
But... Right, and read Outliers, right?
I mean, it's a good book for this, right?
But Michael Jordan, you know, practiced hours and hours a day.
Tiger Woods was on the Johnny Carson show at the age of two as a golf prodigy, and he still practices hours and hours a day, right?
Excellence is hard, and you have to keep at it, right?
Right, definitely.
And if this jazz trumpeter, you said?
No, it's a drummer, yeah. Sorry, this jazz drummer.
If this jazz drummer thought that he could be as good as he was if he only practiced a couple of hours a week, how motivated would he be to practice 13 hours a week?
A lot less motivated.
Well, he would be not at all motivated, right?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, unless he just loved to practice or whatever, right?
Right, exactly, yeah. So when we think...
That something is easy, it functionally becomes impossible, right?
I mean, if I think, well, Michael Phelps has to train for seven days a week, but I only have to train for one day a week because I'm so much better, right?
I'm never going to win a goal, right?
Right. And it's kind of like the inverse for me in this situation.
I'm going like, you know, I needed to train, you know, seven days a week, but this other person will only need to train one day a week, you know, like in the sense of with that Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Although, as we talked about it, she's just done 1% of the work, right?
Which you initiated. Right, exactly.
Yeah. And so, if we think it's easy for someone, it becomes functionally impossible for us, because we lose our motivation, right?
Right, because it's like...
Oh, is that easy?
Well, what the hell's wrong with me?
This person only practices once every two months and they're as good as I am and I practice every day.
Right. Clearly I suck, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
It's funny, you know, I got that feeling sometimes when I used to play drums.
And I think it was just people denying how much they practiced, like saying they practiced less than they did.
But I remember I would always be honest about how much I practiced, and then these other guys who supposedly practiced less than me would be just as good, if not better, a drummer than I was.
And I remember being like, well, what's the point?
If these guys only have to do it for however many hours less, and they're even better than I am, then who am I kidding?
This clearly isn't the craft I should be in.
And clearly they're very smart in terms of under-reporting.
How much they practice, because it's a wonderful way of getting rid of the competition, right?
Yeah, yeah. It's just amazing how much that applies.
And you know, it's funny, I'm just thinking of another analogy here to music, because I very much still play.
And this whole studying philosophy thing, it's kind of like, my drum teacher once said to me, If you practice this new technique, it's going to be really good for your drumming, but just practice it.
Practice it, and then when you go out to play, just play.
And then eventually, the technique that you're practicing is going to integrate itself into your playing.
But don't think about it when you play.
Just go with how it feels.
Right, because otherwise you stiffen up and you...
Yeah, and I feel like that's really applying to this sort of empathy conversation in the sense that...
I want to be more self-aware and not get myself stuck in these situations where I'm with people who are, you know, sort of, I'm more likely to dissociate around.
And instead, I can just sort of practice in the sense, you know, like, quote, practice.
And then eventually, I'm just going to know, you know, with very little effort, at least just in terms of Understanding if other people are worth my time, I guess?
Is that analogous, do you think, or am I missing something?
Yeah, no, no. I think that makes good sense.
And the last thing that I'll sort of mention about this is that you came up with a big action plan for this friend, right?
Oh, no. This action plan that I was talking about at the beginning of the call here wasn't necessarily just for her.
It was just sort of my life in general.
Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I was thinking about, you know, applying this to her, I suppose, yeah.
Alright, did you come up with an action plan for this conversation?
Nope. I was just like, well, I guess I'll talk about what I'm feeling at the beginning of the conversation.
It was kind of what I thought of.
Do you see the difference? Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And I'm a lot more relaxed and...
Just really happy to be, you know, talking with my friends, you know.
Right, and that really is the difference, right?
That if you have to plan a relationship, it's not worth it.
I mean, that's a good sign, right?
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, definitely. Because what it means is that you can't then be open and relaxed and honest and speak in the moment about what you think and feel, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And that's management, and that's manipulation, and that's self-consciousness, and that's, right?
Not, you know, it doesn't work, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's, like, man, I feel much better.
It's funny, you know, in many ways in this conversation we talked about Basically, you're going to leave everybody in the dust and whatever, which seems isolating, but I actually feel pretty good right now.
Right. Well, that's good, because what I'm trying to do is to give you the x-ray so that you can get to the box that is best for you as quickly as possible, right?
Right, yeah. I mean, one of the things you said when you first started, is people will see it.
In others, and they'll just be like, ooh, I want me some of that.
And that's kind of how I feel about, you know, the sort of x-ray empathy goggles.
Right. When you have them, you're also x-ray-able by others.
So you'll both be going through the warehouse full of 10, 20,000 boxes, both with x-ray goggles, and you'll find each other, right?
But if you're sitting there picking locks and confused and don't know, then you'll be invisible to the other person, too.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's great.
With philosophy that's lived with that kind of real integrity, I mean, your soul is visible from space, right?
You're impossible to miss.
Now, a lot of people will want to give it a miss because it's very threatening to them, but the people who you actually want to have in your life will see you and you will see them with like a shock of recognition and there will be no problems.
There will be no self-consciousness.
There will be no, oh, I have to not give this person the truth too quickly, but slowly, and I have to manage them, and I don't want to scare them.
That's all nonsense, right?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, it does kind of feel like a weight lifting off my shoulders.
Right, well, I'm trying to get you across the desert as quickly as possible, right?
Oh, thank you, sir. Well, I mean, that's...
I don't want people...
I don't want the desert to be strewn with the bleached skulls of FDR listeners who can make it, right?
I mean, that would suck quite a lot, right?
So, you know, if you just let your light shine and be curious about others and...
Avoid managing others, avoid feeling broken, avoid thinking that other people have it easy and it's only difficult for you.
All of that kind of stuff is going to get you just into where you have the most productive relationships, whether work or friendship or romantic, as quickly as possible.
When we hide our light, all we do is become invisible to people, right?
Right, right. And that means we're invisible to the predators, but it also means we're invisible to the friends, right?
And we can survive the predators, but we can't survive a lack of friendship.
Yeah, yeah. I definitely agree with you there.
It's funny to think that, you know, you're saying you want to help people get across the desert as quickly as possible.
Although, I mean, which I really appreciate.
I mean, but didn't it take you like 20 years or so?
Well, yeah, but I didn't have FDR, right?
Yeah, it's true. It's a little different, right?
Well, that's what I'm saying.
That's why it's so awesome. Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying.
That's why it's amazing what you're doing.
Because it's like, you know, you've got going on 1,300 podcasts now and videos and all this stuff.
And it's just like, it's all...
I mean... It's really cool.
I know that each day it's like, well, I'm not really interacting with anybody today, so what can I do to further my philosophical knowledge?
Well, let's turn on a podcast.
Oh, it's neat. It's what they say about, it's drugs, right?
The first pill cost $10 million to make.
The second pill cost $0.02 to make, right?
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So, you know, I got a pill, which, you know, the red pill, which cost me a lot of time and money to make, but the reproduction of it is hopefully easier to other people, right?
Yeah. You and I don't have to invent a car, right?
We just have to buy one. Right, exactly, and that's super cool.
Yeah. Okay, was there anything else that people wanted to talk about on this?
I mean, I think that we've gone through this topic to a sufficient level of detail, but...
Hi, Phil.
I just wanted to say...
Just in regards to the perspective that you've expressed before that you feel like you're behind other listeners at FDR, I just want to say that I don't see that at all.
I've always been really impressed by your brilliance and your drive to get the stuff and your enthusiasm.
So I just want to say I've been consistently impressed by you and I don't see that you're behind at all.
And I would certainly further that and say that it's very important that you're out front of the FDR listeners, Phil, because I hear you have a great ass.
And that's what people need to be following.
I mean, that's what I hear.
That's what I hear. Right, we have corroboration.
Absolutely. Alright, cool.
Alright, thanks everybody.
I'll talk to you guys soon. Yeah.
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