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Feb. 5, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
58:46
1276 Negotiations and Empathy - A Conversation

An entrepreneur struggles with income, negotiations and history.

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Hello. Oh, hi.
How are you? I'm fine.
How are you doing? Very well, very well.
Okay, so what can I do to help?
Well, yeah, mostly I've been going back and forth on this issue of going back to work, and I kind of realized I just don't have a framework to I don't even think about it.
So it leads me to just non-action, which isn't good.
So I wanted to maybe talk about that issue and how to think about this problem.
Okay, and where should we start?
Well, maybe my present situation.
Sure. Basically, I left my job as an engineer about a year ago and I've been doing the work freelance from home since then and staying home with my two boys.
And how old are your boys?
Two and four. Oh, how lovely.
And that's something that I've Really enjoyed.
And I continue to enjoy.
And lately though, for some reason, I've just been getting this feeling that maybe I'm falling behind.
I'm running out of time.
That sort of feeling.
And I don't know where that's coming from.
You mean sort of falling behind with your professional knowledge or something?
Yeah, professional knowledge, just my career.
And I'm not sure why that is, but it's definitely something I've been feeling lately.
I thought it was a good idea to pay attention to that.
I'm sorry, could you just repeat that last sentence or two again?
My apologies. Sorry, that I've been...
I've been feeling that recently and I thought it was important to pay attention to it.
Let's see where it might be coming from.
Sorry, someone just woke up.
We could do this at another time.
I mean, the parenting is more important, right?
Yeah, but everything seems to be okay right now.
We'll see. Great.
And so money's an issue too, of course.
Took a drastic pay cut, but it's definitely been worth it as far as being my own boss and choosing my own projects.
And of course staying home and getting to be part of the kids' lives this way.
And sorry, just so I get a sense that when you say money is an issue, do you mean that money is an issue like the way that you're living now is unsustainable or is it more like you'll have no vacations, no meals out?
Like is it sustainable with what you're doing right now or is it not sustainable the way things are going now?
It's sustainable.
In fact, for some reason with two incomes we were charging up the credit cards.
Right. And now it's one we're paying them down.
I don't understand how that happened.
Well, you stop mining stuff, right?
Yeah, I don't go anywhere.
Yeah, I mean, I'm no financial expert, but the only thing that I know what to do when I'm low on cash is don't buy stuff.
I mean, that's all that really...
I mean, there's stuff you have to buy, there's stuff that's optional, and you just take everything that's optional and you strike it off the list.
And that's certainly been the case since I left my highfalutin Software job, stuff's just off the list, right?
You have stuff or you have quality of life.
That's your choice, right? I hope that's not the choice I'm making.
Of course, that might be it.
I do miss some of the social aspects of being out there and doing things.
Sorry, you mean the social aspects of working outside the home?
Yeah. Don't worry, but see, philosophy will cure you of that, because you'll find the company of people less and less satisfying as you get wiser and wiser.
That's just an inevitable. It's one thing that philosophy does, is it will cost you something, but it will also pay you back in terms of you end up spending less time enjoying certain aspects of social life.
Yeah. I have noticed that when I do go back and talk to people that I haven't talked to in a while, it's definitely not the same.
It's like going back to kindergarten or something.
Anyway, sorry, go on. So that's kind of where I am.
I'm seeing some job opportunities in the area, and so I'm just trying to decide what might be Motivating me to try to pursue that and try to decide if I should.
Well, I think the first thing to recognize is that you don't want to go back to work.
Right? And the reason that I... I don't mean that you only don't want to go back to work, but there's a big part of you that doesn't want to go back to work, right?
Definitely. Right?
And that's just important to understand that when we're having trouble making any kind of decision, it's because we have...
Two or more opposing viewpoints, right?
What I have this whole series in the premium section on ambivalence, and that's the first thing to recognize, right?
And I'm sure you have. I just wanted to point that out.
Because if all you wanted to do was go back to work, like you couldn't wait to get out of the house, you really wanted all the doodads that more money can buy you, although we end up with more doodads and strangely more debt, right?
That's the way it works.
But when your income goes up, your debt goes up, as you've sort of noticed.
But if you just had one opinion and you just wanted to do one thing, then that's what you would do and there would be no...
So it's just important to recognize that there's a part of you that wants to go and there's a part of you that wants to stay.
And since these are opposite decisions, they can't be equal.
There can't be a decision that is do X and then do the opposite of X, particularly when it has a significant impact on On others, in particular children, it can't be neutral.
Like, it can't be flip a coin and either one is fine.
Yeah. I have a feeling there's a principled answer here.
Well, there may be.
And the principled answer is, to some degree, dependent on the circumstances, right?
I mean, we would all love to spend all day with our children, but we have to feed and clothe and shelter them, right?
Get them dentists and healthcare and so on, right?
And that's why I asked the sustainability question, right?
Yeah, like I said, we are doing okay, and my wife does work a lot of weekends, which I feel a little bit of guilt about, but that's part of what's making it sustainable, too.
Okay, now, do you have a concern, if I understand what you were saying earlier, do you have a concern that you're Professional skill set is going to deteriorate over time?
No. The professional skill set I build up as a designer, I think, is...
I'm still doing it freelance, so I'm at least maintaining that level.
I'm not learning all the new software doodads and everything like that.
But I think that I'm at least maintaining.
I don't think I'm gaining in skill all that much, except in business.
Right, okay. So, make the case, the part of you that says, go back to work, make that case if you can, so that I understand what the pros are.
I suppose if I were trying to make that case, I would say that my wife isn't super happy about all the time she spends away from the kids.
And she would like to spend more time with them, especially weekends and whatnot.
So she would be able to do that.
We would have, theoretically, more money for saving, which we're not able to do anything, any saving right now, as far as retirement or college or anything like that.
And with the job, I'd be able to do that.
And I'd be developing a set of skills, maybe not in my previous area.
One of my goals for taking this time off had been to find out if engineering is what I'd like to keep going with or maybe in some other field.
So part of it is I'm not looking for that career.
Now, sorry, just so I understand, so the major issue is your wife and her preference to not work weekends, is that right?
Yeah, I suppose that would be one of my major concerns.
Okay, so I'm trying to understand what you said major concerns are, right?
As you said, when you had more money, you were running up your credit card debt, so it's not, like the worst thing in the world would be to go back to work and to not end up with more money.
Right. And money's funny that way, right?
The more you have, the more you spend.
It's just kind of inevitable, right?
That would be a worst of both worlds.
Right. That would be like no gain for anyone except the credit card companies.
And Lord knows, we like to help the credit card companies, but still, it doesn't seem like a very good use of time and resources.
Is there a way of you being able to give your wife more of a time with the kids on the weekend?
In other words, could you take on extra work That would allow her, unless she's in a business where weekends are just mandatory, is there a way, which would be the same even if you went back to work, is there any way for you to generate more income to cover off at least some of that weekend time?
Yeah, I could take on more projects, I think.
What about raising your rates?
That's an interesting question.
And the reason that I say this is that, you know, Christina and I have this conversation every 6 to 12 months about her rates, right?
And it's not easy to raise your rates.
We always feel like, oh my god, if I charge more, everyone's going to vanish.
But that generally is not the case.
Right, I mean, the cost of living goes up, your skill set improves every single year, your efficiency improves, your experience improves, your creativity improves, your tool sets improve.
And so what you can deliver increases, and the cost of living increases.
So what if you just bumped up your rates 10% or 20%?
That would certainly help.
Well, let's say you could do 20%.
Would that at least cut one of the days out that your wife would have to work on the weekend?
Yeah, probably. If I could take an extra project a month...
Or if I could raise the rates 20%, I think.
You said you've been working from home for a year, is that right?
Yeah. Have you raised your rates at all during that time?
No, I've been steady.
Do you know whether your rates are competitive within your industry?
Are they generally lower? Are they higher?
Where do they sit? I have a pretty good idea that most of my business comes from my former employer, and I know we used to pay outsource contractors there, and I'm at least 20% below them.
Well, given that you have a long-term relationship, that you know the clients, you know what that person wants, you could actually charge a premium at this point, but to be conservative, I think that you should at least raise your rates to match what people were being paid.
Beforehand, I mean, everybody who starts a business starts off low-balling.
You have to, to get work, right?
Because otherwise people just go with others.
But I think it's worth a sit-down with and say, look...
I have two kids. I'm producing good work.
I'm going to increase my rates effective a month from now or whatever, right?
And just say, this is what I'm going to move them to.
My understanding is that's what we used to pay people.
And that's the situation.
Now, if they say, you know, screw you.
I know they won't. But let's say they say, screw you, we're not going to pay it.
Then, you know, you can make your decision about what you want to do, whether you want to look for other work or whatever.
But there's lots of things that you can do.
To increase your income without having to go and get a job.
What about this?
Have you thought of outsourcing or subcontracting certain aspects of your job that other people can do which are less value added?
Right, so for instance, last year I hired a fellow for a while to To contact people and tell them about FDR. Now, I can do that, but relative to the value of me writing a book or doing a podcast, the crappy stuff to do with being an entrepreneur, you just outsource that as much as you can.
That would help productivity there, and maybe let me take more projects at the same time.
Yes, for sure, for sure, for sure.
And so it will increase your throughput, right?
And generally, we try to, as an entrepreneur, we'll try and do the things where the stuff we can't outsource, we don't outsource, but the stuff we can outsource, we do, right?
So, for instance, I could have set up a data center here in my house, right, and run the server from here and maintained it and so on from here, but that's not my skill set and it's not a very good use of my time to learn that skill set for one server, right? Or at least a server from California and that's where I run things and so on, right?
And in the same way, it doesn't make much sense for me to learn the tax laws to do with what I'm doing here.
So I hire an accountant to do that.
And I mean, you get the general idea, right?
Yeah, yeah. So if you look at your day, you can figure out and say, okay, and just note this down during the next day or two.
And sorry, these are all stupid practical suggestions, but I mean, let's at least clear these out the way.
You can look and say, okay, how much of my day do I spend doing unique things that only I could conceivably do, right?
And how much of my time do I spend doing stuff which could be outsourced?
Because you want to outsource as much as you can so that you can spend the majority of your day doing the highest possible value additions that you can, right?
Absolutely. And that will raise your throughput considerably.
And I guess I already do that with, like you said, accounting, but it's...
Yeah, I could potentially do it with other things, too.
Right. I mean, and that way, if you can, say, do 50% more work by outsourcing, and it's a...
It's a bitch up front because you've got to find people, train people, and so on, right?
And pay them as contractors so you don't have to run their payroll.
But I think that's really essential when it comes to being an entrepreneur.
That way, if you raise your rates 10% or 20% and you can do 50% more work, I mean, your income has gone up 25%, 30%, right?
Yeah. Or 40%, right?
Because you'd have to, you won't make as much, you've got to pay people as well.
But basically, your income will go up considerably, all things considered, right?
And that might give you the opportunity to not work any harder, but to work, in a sense, smarter by outsourcing low-value activities.
No, those are excellent suggestions.
Thank you. And so, again, so I would look at Raising the rates first, at least 10%.
At least 10%.
And then secondly, look at the outsourcing as much as possible.
Of course, if your wife can do any of the stuff that you would outsource, so much the better, right?
Keep the money internal.
Yeah, it's just less.
Obviously, you trust her and she's the mother of your children and you can...
You then don't have to, you get additional throughput, and she's working from home, and you get that much more income.
But, you know, to increase your income as a sort of sole source entrepreneur, you don't have to go out and get a job.
And you'd be surprised, right?
I mean, as you know, right, you go out and you get a job, and you say, ooh, I'm getting paid 30% more, right?
But you lose your tax breaks, right?
You've got your car maintenance, right?
You got to dry cleaning, you got to gas, right?
Lunch is out. Lunch is out.
You lose time because you have to get up and get dressed, right?
I mean, this sounds stupid, but it's important, right?
And you also lose quality of life because, I don't know about you, but my sleep can sometimes be all over the map.
Yeah. It's important for me to have the flexibility that if I'm up late, that I can sleep in.
Now, I know you don't have that with kids if your wife's not home, but that kind of flexibility is important.
I don't know if you live in a place where there's cold weather or snow, but that's another issue that for four months of the year up here in Canada, who knows what the roads are like and how long you're going to have to spend commuting.
And then maybe there's business travel, right, if you're good with people.
Right? You may not end up making a whole lot more money by going to get a job, and there's lots of things that you can do to increase your income by staying in the same situation and without working harder in the long run.
That's true, and those are the things that you need to look at.
Right, and the way that we worked it here with my household is, you know, we put down a list of all of our expenses and we put in The nice-to-haves, right, which becomes more essential, especially when you have two kids, like, you know, saving for college and so on.
Put down the nice-to-haves and say, okay, well, if we get it, like, the have-to-haves, the nice-to-haves, and the it would be nice if, right?
And you just sort of draw a line up there and say, okay, well, what's the income after taxes that we need here?
And then you look at your income and you say, okay, if we only need 10% more money from me, then I can raise my rates 10%.
Or maybe 12% or whatever, right?
I guess you mean maybe you'll lose 2% of business so that you end up with a 10% increase in income.
Then you cover that off.
And then if you say, okay, well, if we want 10% more, that gets us further up the barometer of nice-to-haves when it comes to things we can afford, which means that I'll have to spend some additional time up front outsourcing, right?
So Christina took her office outside the house.
We got offices fairly close and...
We spent a good chunk of the summer finding the offices Buying the furniture, setting them up, getting them painted, buying the artwork, getting them all sorted out, getting the phone system, the computer system, all that kind of stuff.
And that's an investment that you do up front and then it pays off, right?
So if you sit down with your wife and you say, okay, well, here's, you know, in order for me to outsource, I'm going to have to work an extra 20 hours a week for the next month or two.
Is that acceptable?
And you sort of, you get nods around the table, right?
Right. And say, is that acceptable?
And then that way you don't just say, hey, it's magic income time, and then you end up working more, which is going to be frustrating to your wife, right?
Yeah. You know, I've been trying to keep it working on the weekends, and so I basically only work two to three days a week, and so I've got room to expand there into the nights.
And be productive there, too.
So I've got lots of avenues to expand this.
You can, but, I mean, you've set up your family so that you're working two to three hours a week, and I don't underestimate the amount of primary care responsibilities that you have for two kids under five, right?
So I would not first and foremost, if I were in your shoes, I would not first and foremost look at expanding my hours.
Because that's going to take away from your kids.
There's just no two ways about it, right?
A time when they need you the most, right?
Yeah. The other thing about expanding business is one of the reasons I want to do freelance is so I can be choosy about the projects.
I can pick people to help that That really needed it and could take projects that maybe weren't the best and pass them over.
So, that's a benefit of being my own boss.
That's true. Now, if you have projects that you're offered that you pass up, you're actually in possession of a valuable commodity, right?
For instance, if you know other engineers who would appreciate the opportunity to have the contracts which you say no to, then you can say, look, for 5% of the project or 10% of the project, I will pass this along to you, or I will strongly recommend you to the company if you know the person.
And they may want to do projects that you don't want to do for whatever reason.
And you can... It is a finder's fee, which for getting business is something that you can be a sort of a clearinghouse of projects, right?
Yeah, I didn't consider that either.
Yeah, I mean, Christina will refer patients on to other people and...
Now, with her, it's reciprocal, right?
She doesn't charge for referring patients, but people refer patients back and forth.
But if you're in possession of jobs that are access to you, then finding places where you can provide people with these jobs.
And it's best if you know people, because you don't want to recommend someone who turns out to not do a good job.
But that's another source of income that...
It's a double win, right?
You don't have to do projects that you don't want, but you also don't give up the entire income of having access to that project.
Yeah, that's true.
It just occurred to me that as helpful as these are, this has got to be the The most sleep-inducing conference call.
I apologize to everyone who might be listening.
No, listen, I don't think so.
I don't think so, because what we're doing here is we're actually validating your instincts.
We'll get to the emotional stuff in just a second.
I just want to deal with the practical side of things, because that, to me, is indicative of emotional stuff.
Yeah, and But just the cost of daycare is astronomical and nowhere near the kind of quality I can provide.
Oh, yeah. No, that's brutal on children.
I mean, in my opinion, that's just brutal on children.
And I would live in my car before that, right?
Yeah. So, yeah, it's hard to make that case that you asked me to make.
Anyway, so these and other ideas will be, I think, useful for you.
We've certainly given you enough suggestions to bump your income up.
By, I would say, 15 to 20% if you take the time to raise your rates, find people to outsource so that you can take on more high-quality projects and the ones that you don't like, farm them off for a reasonable fee.
Those things can, without actually adding to your work in the long run, can increase your income to the point where I don't think it would be valuable going back to work.
And have you sat down and do the math, you know, say, well, if I go back to work, how much of a salary increase would I need to make it worth my while, given all of the additional costs of daycare and cars and commuting and gas and maintenance and all that sort of stuff?
Yeah, it would be significant.
I'd have to ask for a nice salary, and then it might disappear next month or two months from then.
Well, of course, that's the other issue, right?
Being an entrepreneur during a recession or a depression is a lot less scary than being salaried.
And I heard that.
For some reason, I thought it was the reverse.
But as you explained it in that podcast, it was clear.
Yeah, it's much less scary to be an entrepreneur.
Yeah, it's... It's leaner times for an entrepreneur, but with a salaried employee, it's feast or famine, right?
You've either got enough to eat or you're totally starving to death, and that's too stressful for me anyway.
No, I definitely get that.
All right. So let me ask you this.
How do you feel about the suggestions that we're talking about here?
There are things I... I hadn't considered especially the finder's fees.
So a lot of new ideas and it's got me a little bit excited about the possibilities there because it would be so great to stay home.
Right. Now you said a little bit excited and I'm getting that sense.
Why do you think only a little bit?
No, it's still not totally real to me.
It might work out, it might not, but I think that there's no reason why I couldn't at least, like you said, bump up the income a little bit and still maintain all the things I like about it.
Okay, let me ask you this.
Other than me PayPal-ing you a million dollars, What in this call would have been good enough news for you to be very enthusiastic?
I'm not saying you should be very enthusiastic.
I'm just curious.
This was great news in that I think it gives me a reason to stay home.
And I still don't...
As far as long-term career stuff, I'm still...
I'm still wondering where I belong on that score.
But as far as the short term, this is perfect.
Okay, so for you, perfection gives you a slight increase in enthusiasm.
Do you see what I mean? I'm not trying to be annoying, although I'm sure I'm being annoying, but this is the emotional part that I wanted to talk about.
No, I think that, yeah, I'm maybe more excited than I sound.
We do have a sleepy boy here, but still.
Okay, and the reason that I'm asking, if you are, that's great, right?
And the reason I'm asking is just because...
If you were not that excited, or if you were excited but also very scared, then there would be emotional issues.
Because going to people and saying, I'm going to up your income, sorry, I'm going to up your rates, or I'm going to up my rates, is stressful for a lot of people, right?
Yeah, but I do have inside knowledge that that wouldn't be all that destructive.
So, maybe that's...
I'm not that serious about that.
But here's the thing, right?
I'm gonna just take an analogy, right?
Let's say your wife takes out the garbage every week, and you don't, right?
And, unfortunately, it's the one chore she totally hates, and it's really interfering with her enjoyment of the marriage, right?
Would you rather she tell you so that you could negotiate something different or that she keep it to herself and simmer with resentment?
I'd love to hear about it.
Right. Now, the worry...
So let's say that you work for me as a contractor and I know that I'm paying you below rates, right?
Right. And let's say that I also know that you have these financial pressures, that your wife has to work weekends, and you have two kids, and it's causing you concern, and it's causing you stress, and it's causing you worry.
That is inevitably going to interfere with the quality of your work, right?
Yeah. I might not put out the project as fast as I could.
Or it might not be quite as good.
You won't be as enthusiastic, right?
Yeah. And we all instinctively understand what a fair price is, right?
So if somebody offers you a million dollars to go and mail a letter for them, you feel like it's some sort of setup and you're going to get shot, right?
Yeah. So when we go to someone we work for and we say...
I would be much happier if I got this raise.
What we're saying to them is, I'm giving you the opportunity to improve the quality of my delivery.
Now, if you don't want to improve the quality of my delivery, That's fine, right?
Then you don't have to give me the raise and we'll sit with the quality that I have, but you know that I'm going to go to other people and ask for more money.
So, the relationship that we have is in jeopardy because I want more money.
Now, you don't have to give me more money, but...
Be aware that I will be happier and more productive with more money.
And you're giving them the choice.
Now, if you never ask for more money, then people aren't going to offer it to you.
But what's going to happen is you're going to get progressively more unhappy, progressively more unfulfilled, and then you're going to take some job And no longer be available to that person.
And then they may say to you, well, why are you quitting?
And you say, because I need 10% more income, so I'm going to quit to get a job, right?
And they may, so I've already quit, I've already, you know, I've already taken the job and so on.
And they might go nuts.
And they might say, are you kidding me?
You mean if I paid you 10% more, you'd still be available to do this work and you never asked me for that?
Hmm. It would be really frustrating.
Like if your wife walked up to you and said, that's it, I'm divorcing you, right?
And you said, why? And you said, for years and years I've taken out the garbage and I've hated it, right?
And you say, well, why didn't you tell me?
And then you wouldn't divorce me.
You'd be really frustrated if your wife kept her preferences from you to the point where she got so upset that, right?
Definitely, that's... It's honesty in a business relationship.
Right, so you may quit your home-based business and you may go and get a job, and your employer may be really the guy, the people who are giving you work right now, they might be really annoyed because you did not give them the chance for a counter-offer, right? I think they would be.
And so give them the opportunity to make both of you happy.
Wow, yeah.
I'll give you one other silly example, right?
If you were going to go and buy a house and you wanted it painted a different color before you moved in, And you never told the owners, but you just said, no, I don't want to buy your house, right?
And if they then found out that all they had to do was spend $2,000 to repaint the house and they would have sold it, and you never told them that, they might be really frustrated because it's like, we would have happily done that.
Yeah. I think that asking for...
A little bit more on the projects.
It's a no-brainer. Yeah, and stating your preferences to whoever you are working with is respectful to them.
Because it gives them a choice, whereas otherwise you're making the choice for them.
Because of your own anxiety, and it's disrespectful to the person you're working with.
Because they may very much prefer to give you 10 or 20% more than have to go and find someone else who they don't know if they're any good.
Because if you leave these people who are giving you this work, they've got to find other people to do it.
And those other people may quit, or they may not be any good, or they may move, or they may quit to become mimes.
I don't know, right? Yep.
Or they might get sick, or they might...
Whatever, right? They just don't know how they work, right?
whereas the easy rapport that you've got, they may much prefer to pay you a little more to keep you and give them the respect of allowing them to make that choice.
That's good advice.
Thank you.
And that's how, I mean, I'm pretty demanding when it comes to negotiation because I'm actually trying to protect my interests, but I'm also trying to protect the interests of the other people.
I mean, I bargained hard in the last job that I had to get an extra $10,000 a year of salary.
Why? Because that would make me happy.
And when I'm happy, I'm much more productive.
And when I'm happy, I'm not sitting there going, grumble, grumble, grumble.
I'm going to keep my resume out there just in case, right?
Yeah, happiness and productivity really go hand in hand there.
Right, and if I feel like I'm being underpaid to the point where I'm thinking about looking for another job, then, like at the level that I was working at, It takes 6 to 12 months for you to become really productive.
So if I felt underpaid and I kept my resume out there, then my employer might not get...
I might just be starting to become really productive when I say, Hey, you know what?
I found a place that'll pay me 10 grand more.
I wanted that from the beginning, but I never told you.
So I'm leaving. And then my employer might say, Are you kidding me?
We just spent $60,000 training you, getting you up to speed.
You're only just becoming productive now, and you're quitting over $10,000, which you never told us about?
Oh, you put it that way. It's not very respectful.
It's maddening! Yeah.
It's definitely a totally different way of looking at it.
All right. So, this is not just, obviously, this is the reason I'm going into this in such detail.
It's because it has nothing to do with business, right?
Fundamentally, it's about your relationships and my relationships and so on, right?
About stating preferences.
About stating preferences, about giving the other person the choice to make us happy rather than making that decision for them.
And fundamentally it's about parenting, right?
How?
I'm sure it is.
Well, insofar as you want to state your preferences with your children and not suppress your own preferences for the sake of, quote, making them happy.
I mean, I'm not talking about your two-year-old, and it's probably just starting with your four-year-old, but that's sort of what I'm talking about, right?
Yeah, and encouraging them to do the same.
Well, you can't encourage them to do the same.
You can only show them. I mean, you can encourage them, but if you don't show them, it's going to never work, right?
Children only learn what they live, not what they hear, right?
Maybe I can't encourage them to do that, but I have occasionally felt myself discouraging them from that, and that's definitely to be avoided.
You know, allow them to state their preferences is something that has been working really great, although it's kind of getting off topic about it.
Well, I don't think it is off-topic, right?
Because there's a reason why this stuff...
I mean, you're obviously a very intelligent fellow and a very concerned and very wise fellow.
And there's a reason why this stuff did not occur for you, right?
Because what you were telling me at the beginning of this call is, I will do anything to avoid a proactive and assertive negotiation.
I certainly don't like to get into it with many people.
Yeah.
This is more than business.
I don't like to argue.
Well, see, that's not possible, and I'm just going to be annoyingly precise with you, right?
If you don't negotiate with other people, all you end up doing is negotiating with yourself on behalf of other people.
There's no way to avoid negotiation.
There's no way to avoid negotiation.
Right? So if my wife wants to go to Niagara Falls, and I don't want to go to Niagara Falls, I can concede and just smile and go, right?
But all I'm doing is then debating in my head, right?
I can't believe she made me go to Niagara Falls.
Why didn't I say anything? Well, you know, you don't want to be upset.
She did this thing for you last time, and so maybe it's okay for you to do this thing this time.
You just end up negotiating in your head.
So when you say, I don't want to go and ask for a raise for whatever rates you have, when you say that, what you're saying is, I have already negotiated on behalf of the other person and they have said no.
You see, you haven't avoided the negotiation.
You simply had the negotiation on behalf of the other person.
Yeah, and that's not fair to them.
And it doesn't get me an extra 10%.
Right, and it's not fair to them.
It may be explicitly against their interests, right?
So when people say, well, I don't like to negotiate, all that means is they're saying, I prefer to negotiate on behalf of the other person and never tell them, right?
And yeah, I do a lot of that internal negotiation all the time.
And obviously, if you don't do it out there, then that's where you do it.
Right. And it's, you know, I understand, at least I think I understand the history that leads to this.
And I want to say, with all due sympathy, obviously, you grew up in a family where negotiation was not a strong point, to say the least, right?
And so I understand all of that.
But now, it's really selfish.
Because now, in order to avoid the anxiety of being honest and changing the pattern of self-talk, to actually let other people into these negotiations and let the people have a voice that you're negotiating with and involved with, instead of doing that, you're just making up answers for them to avoid your own anxiety.
As a child, I'm sure it was no fun, and I totally understand, at least I think I do, the circumstances which would lead you to this habit.
But as an adult...
It's really selfish because you're not giving other people a chance to negotiate with you, which I guarantee you they really want to.
Wow.
Yeah.
I'm not sure what to say there, but yeah, that feels great somehow.
Somehow, that's right. And you're also, I mean, again, tell me any time I say anything off base, right?
But you didn't have much of an opportunity to negotiate when you were growing up, right?
No, I wouldn't say that, no.
You wouldn't say what?
Sorry, that was a double negative that we had there.
I want to make sure I understand what you mean.
I don't think I had much opportunity for that.
Right, and I would also further go and say that if you have an avoidance of such an essential human characteristic, and we are the negotiating species, right?
I mean, that's what we do.
And it's fun. It can be a positive, fun, and enjoyable experience to negotiate.
So, it is an essential human aspect of our social life, of our economic life, of our romantic life, of our life of friendships and family to negotiate, right?
Family is, in its ideal, at least the way that I think of it, is a lot about negotiation.
And when you weren't allowed to negotiate, or to be more precise, when you were...
Attacked or undermined or belittled or something negative went on when you tried to negotiate, because all children are born negotiators, I can tell you that for sure.
You did not like the fact that your negotiation capacities were suppressed when you were a kid, right?
because kids are natural negotiators and I'm having trouble thinking of examples but yeah I definitely there wasn't there wasn't discussions so much and You know, there was a plan.
Sorry, you mean when you were a kid and your family there was like a plan and your input was not solicited, is that right?
Yeah. So that explains a lot of that.
And also I wonder if, you know, I love to debate.
Maybe that's trying to get some of the negotiation that I don't do in daily life.
I mean, I think that's a perfectly brilliant insight.
And for sure, debating, and the more abstract the debate, the more this is true.
And you'll know when debating is a problem.
Debating is a substitute for negotiation when debating never achieves an end goal.
Yeah, if it's just an exercise.
Yeah, if it's a Hannity and Combs thing, neither of them is ever going to convert the other, right?
Or you put Al Franken and Rush Limbaugh in a room?
That obviously is not going to lead anywhere, right?
Not without a folding chair.
Right, right, right. So, yeah, I would definitely pull back on the debating.
I mean, that's why the against me argument that I talk about is so tough for people.
Because what I'm saying is, look, if you believe in the non-aggression principle and you have a bunch of people around you who want you to be shot...
For your opinions, that means something and you should really push that to a resolution.
Either they accept that violence is a bad way to solve problems or you hit the eject button because you don't want people in your life who abdicate violence against you.
That's called putting your cards on the table and pushing a debate to a resolution.
It makes people very anxious because what I'm doing is mixing in the personal with the abstract.
In other words, I'm turning it from a sterile and empty debate into a living and active negotiation.
And people don't like that, right?
Because they use debating as a substitute for negotiation.
Yeah, I can see that.
I'm scared of something real entering the conversation.
Right, right, right.
So when you were a kid, when your input was not solicited or permitted, you didn't like that, right?
I mean, all children want to have...
They don't expect everything to be agreed to, and it's not healthy if it is, but they really want to be heard, right?
Like all of us. Yeah.
And so you didn't like it when your input was not solicited when you were a kid, right?
No, no. Now, in the same way...
The people that you're not negotiating with don't like it that their input is not being solicited.
In this situation, you've become your parents and other people have become you as a kid, right?
Because you have a plan called, well, I'm either going to do this or I'm going to go back to work or whatever, and then you just present people with the conclusions.
There's no negotiation, which is kind of what you didn't like when you were a kid, right?
Well, I can see a lot of examples with that in business and marriage.
Yeah, it's...
That's definitely something to look out for.
Now, I assume also that you're a libertarian, right?
Yeah. Not such a big fan of the government, right?
No, I would...
It still says libertarian on my voting card, even though I don't use it.
So I guess so. Okay, okay.
So one of the things that we fundamentally object to with the state...
Is that it presents us with a plan, it imposes that plan, and there's no negotiation, right?
Do you see how negotiation is fundamentally anarchic or libertarian, and making a plan not allowing negotiation and imposing that plan on others without their feedback is fundamentally statist?
Well, they do call it central planning, I guess.
They do. And this is what's so funny about...
And I put... Look, I don't like...
I mean, I have trouble with negotiations as well.
So I'm not saying, ooh, look at me do the negotiation dance with no flaws.
But what I try to remind myself about, or what I try to remind myself of, is that if I don't give people a voice, if I don't give them...
An input into decisions that I'm making that directly affect them, I'm operating on the principle of statism, and I'm supposed to be this monster anarchist, right?
Yeah. Because DROs, a free society, a voluntarist society, a stateless society, it's all about the negotiation, right?
Yeah, it has to be.
And people fear an anarchic society because They fear that people are going to resort to brutality rather than negotiation.
And all they're saying is that I wasn't allowed to negotiate as a kid, so I don't believe that people can.
Or it makes me anxious to even think that people can.
And so when we negotiate with people and give them a voice and let them influence what we're saying, and hopefully they let us influence what they're saying, we are teaching people anarchism.
In a way that a sterile or intellectual or abstract debate about DROs will never do.
Because the more we negotiate with people, the more they will notice that the government doesn't, right?
Yeah. The more they'll see it runs on a completely different principle, opposite principle.
Right. Right.
And so when we provide negotiation back and forth with people, we respect their requirements, we state our own needs, we go back and forth, it's certainly true that we will make some people very anxious and upset and other people will cave and then resent us.
And so, you know, we can either work with those people that get those people out of our lives, depending on the value of the relationship and our own preferences.
But we are fundamentally teaching people about freedom when we give, when we don't negotiate on their behalf and present them with a fait accompli.
That's interesting on a lot of levels.
Not only is it nice and handy to be thinking of that while I'm going to my clients, but applications and lots of relationships.
Right.
Right. So when you sit down and negotiate with your wife, your children will be aware of this interaction.
I'm not talking about, like, I can't believe you grabbed that redhead.
I mean, you know what I mean?
But when you sit down and negotiate with your wife, your children can be in the room.
I mean, obviously, they shouldn't be in the room if you're having a fight, but they can be in the room if you're having a negotiation.
You model that behavior for your children and then you negotiate with your children and you teach them how to negotiate.
Right.
Because there's there's a moral element to negotiation, which is around it's APA.
It's not good or evil.
It's aesthetically preferable.
It's not good or evil, but it is the most effective way to teach people about freedom, in my opinion, is to not negotiate on their behalf, but to give them a voice in the interaction so they can see the difference between that and God, between that and the state, between that and other authoritarian structures.
I'm just thinking of the times when I've been really proud of my four year old friends who's been.
There's been times when he's negotiated instead of the alternatives that would be more of his little brother's MO. You know, like there were some toys on the floor and my wife asked him to pick him up and He said, well, my brother put them there.
And then he said, I think it's inconsiderate of you to blame me.
You know what? Once they've hit the argument for morality, they're almost politicians.
That's beautiful. That's beautiful.
And the argument for morality is what children will almost always use at the very beginning.
They will say justice and fairness and consistency and this and that.
It takes a really educated person to forget about the argument for morality because it's so instinctual for us.
And that's beautiful. And, you know, the last thing that I would point out is that, you know, because what I'm trying to do is give you incentives to overcome the barrier to negotiation, because obviously you want to negotiate.
We all would love to have that freedom.
But we all have barriers to varying degrees for negotiation, for productive negotiation.
But most importantly, it is one of the greatest skills that you can teach your children, right?
Because all relationships revolve around negotiation.
It doesn't mean that that's all it is.
But a relationship without negotiation is not really a relationship at all, right?
Because there's not two viewpoints that are both working for a common good, striving to find a common good, right?
Well, that's something that puts it right there.
If I don't know how, then it's not going to be...
Well, it's worse than that, though.
If you avoid it, you will teach them to avoid it.
Whether you want to or not, whether you're conscious of it or not, whether you like to or not, that's what the inevitable result be, because children absorb what they see, not what they hear, right?
And if they see you avoiding negotiation, you being afraid of negotiation, you negotiate to take the call, because this is definitely...
I was certainly... I can talk about it better...
Now than I could have two weeks ago because I've started this book on how to achieve freedom.
So this is all stuff that's floating around.
So I think the wait was worth it.
And of course, if the sum effect of this call is that you get to spend more time with your children, I mean, I couldn't be happier, right?
That to me would be...
And your wife gets to spend more time with your children if this gets you some extra income and gives you more time with your kids.
That to me is an absolutely beautiful way to spend an hour.
So I'm very pleased about that.
All right. Well, keep us posted about how it goes.
Of course, I'm dying to hear what happens.
I certainly will.
All right, man. Take care.
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