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Feb. 1, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:36:34
1272 Sunday Call In Show Feb 1 2009

Two brave women speak up.

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Time Text
Well, g'day, mateys.
It's Steph. It is just after four on February the 1st, 2009.
And top of the items, the magical gorgeous child, Isabella, is six weeks and two days old.
And we now have evidence.
I'll put a photo up.
We have had our first genuine, count them genuine, smiles.
And, um...
There exists a truly terrifying video of me making faces trying to make Isabella smile.
She actually just pees straight into what is essentially a very bald African terror mask.
That actually did make Christina laugh, but did not have as much luck making Isabella laugh.
So, she's doing beautifully.
She's gaining weight.
She's healthy. She's strong.
She's incredible fun.
She makes just the most amazing and astounding sounds.
She is a very trapped audience for my singing, for which she will require a huge amount of sound therapy later on to get her out.
Because I'm mostly into Chinese opera, so it is very...
Well, painful, I think would be the operative word.
So she's doing wonderfully.
Christina's doing wonderfully. I have started the new book, How to Achieve Freedom, and it is progressing beautifully.
I was hoping not to have to start it this soon after Isabella's birth, but...
Sadly, it's not so much up to me.
I just find when I can't get to sleep before 3 or 4 in the morning, even without a baby, it's just time to work on a book.
So it comes when it comes, and it's coming very nicely.
The plan, I think, is good.
And the writing, not spectacularly metaphorical.
It's coming out kind of dry.
Christina likes that, and I think it has some value in terms of what it is that I'm writing about.
But that's all going very well.
Thank you to those who stepped up at the end of January, just for those who are listening, who've been around for a while, who haven't donated.
It is a pricey month, FDR. I took a two-year contract out in February of 07, was when I bought the dedicated dual-core 2GB of RAM FDR server in California.
And that contract, it's a couple of grand, is coming up again, so if you'd like to help out with that, that would be great.
We almost cracked 100GB of downloads today.
In one, count them, one 24-hour period, which really is quite astounding.
That is not counting any of the FDR books, which are, I guess, heading close to 50,000.
50,000 Free Domain Radio books are now downloaded.
I don't know how many have been passed around since then, but that is pretty spectacular, and that doesn't count any of the ones that I've sold.
So thanks again to the donators who've made all of that amazing material.
Available to people for free.
That is pretty good for works of hardcore philosophy.
Most popular, Everyday Anarchy.
Least popular, Steph, Throws from Shapes, A Guide to Bald Breakdancing.
It's more of a stick, figure, flip cartoon book, but that remains relatively unpopular.
But I guess we listen to the market and continue.
So the new book is How to Achieve Freedom.
It is my, you know, as Dr.
Phil says, throwing some verbs into my sentences.
It is about the steps that I think need to be taken in order to secure a stateless society.
So hopefully it will not be the shortest book in the world.
But I think it will be very helpful and very useful.
And it does provide an answer, I think...
To one of the most constant questions, at least that I get, which is, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but how do we get there?
And what I'm doing is really setting down the engineering statistics, or blueprints, I guess you could say, for the massive Freedom and Catapult.
Volunteers are always welcome.
Please step up. You will need to be relatively comfortable being encased with duct tape with a pillow around your head, but we will get you to freedom one way or the other, so...
So thank you again, everybody, so much for their support continued of this conversation.
I don't have any big introductions other than that.
Being a parent is utterly delightful and highly recommended.
And Christina's doing beautifully.
I'm doing fine.
Baby's wonderful. And over to you, glorious and gorgeous listeners, for your questions or issues or comments or anything like that.
Hi Steph, it's Marissa.
Hello! How's it going?
Good. I have a question about a phobia that I've had ever since I can remember.
It's about seeing other people vomiting.
Go ahead. Yeah, and I'm not really sure like where it's coming from.
Both of my parents are alcoholics, so I kind of think it has something to do with that.
But I don't really remember any kind of like traumatic event that occurred.
So I just kind of wanted your thoughts on that.
Can you tell me a little bit more about the phobia?
Obviously, unless you work in a vomitorium, you're not seeing this on a regular basis, but when it does occur, what are your feelings or thoughts about it?
I don't really feel nauseous myself.
I know a lot of people have that reaction.
I really just kind of start panicking, like I need to get away from the person that's vomiting.
I've even started to cry and shake.
At times. It doesn't really bother me when I throw up.
I don't, you know, get panicky at all with that.
Also, like, if my husband's thrown up in front of me before and I didn't really bother, I didn't have a reaction like that with him.
So it's mostly with strangers, right?
Yeah. Okay, and do you know what the thoughts are that precede the feelings?
No, I can't really...
I can't really recall any thoughts.
It's mostly just, like, I remember the last time I saw somebody throwing up, I just kind of, like, ran away.
I didn't really think of anything.
I just, like, I have to get away.
And why was that person throwing up?
It was, I think that she was eating bad food.
It was right outside of a Subway restaurant.
Right. Right.
So, okay, so it wasn't anyone you knew, they were just throwing up on the sidewalk and you had to run away because you felt overwhelmed with feelings of anxiety or horror or something like that?
Right, exactly. And do you have any thoughts as to why you may feel this way?
I mean, I could obviously ask questions, but I'm just wondering what thoughts you have about this.
Yeah, I'm really not sure.
I brought it up with my therapist, and she thought that probably the alcoholism with my parents had something to do with it.
Maybe I witnessed something really traumatic involving vomiting when I was younger, but I can't recall anything like that.
So that's pretty much as far as I've gotten.
Okay. I mean, again, this is all nonsense theory, right?
Just to put the caveats out there.
I'll just do this once at the beginning of every show.
These are all opinions. I'm not a professional, blah, blah, blah.
But this is sort of what comes to my mind about this.
Now, can I ask?
Because there are kind of, in my knowledge or understanding or experience, there are kind of two kinds of drunken parents.
And you can tell me which kind it is.
So there's the kind of drunken parent who...
You know, drinks and gets bombed and is neglectful of the children, right?
So they get wasted.
They're either in or out of the home.
And then they, you know, the kids have to very quickly, if they want to survive, learn how to make their own breakfast and keep house.
And the parent is just kind of a sodden, drunk person.
Dazed lump in the bed or sort of crawling around with their hand pressed to their head groaning.
So they're into drinking, but they're not against their children, if that makes any sense?
Yeah, that does make sense.
And then there's the other kind. Let me just finish.
I'll just put the other thing. There's the other kind who, when they are drunk, they become very invasive and very intrusive.
They don't just sort of get drunk and then pass out.
They get drunk and start menacing or invading the children's space.
They're the kind of clingy, invasive, intrusive drunks that don't just sort of drink and pass out.
But the drinking signifies that they're going to start nitpicking at the kids or they're going to start, you know, they become a very invasive kind of a kind of drunk.
And there may be other categories. This is just the ones that I've noticed.
But does that, either of those fit the pattern with your parents or was it something else?
You know, I don't really have a lot of memory of my parents when they were drinking.
They both stopped.
Well, my dad stopped a lot later, but he didn't really drink very much around me, I think.
But they both stopped when I was pretty young.
So I can't really remember how they acted when they were drunk around me.
Okay. Would you characterize your parents as...
If these two categories were there, you have distant parents and you have invasive parents when it comes to dysfunction.
Again, there may be other categories, but those are the ones that spring to mind.
Would you put your parents into either of those categories?
Again, very, very general or something else.
I'd say probably more of the first category.
Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Well, I'm not really sure.
I know my dad has always been pretty kind of like intrusive and had pretty much zero boundaries with me.
But my mom, I was told when my mom was drinking a lot, she was more kind of away from me.
So, yeah, I don't think that she was really around when she was drinking.
She wasn't really around me when she was drinking.
And you can talk about this, obviously, or not, as you see fit, but could you give me some examples of what you mean when you say that your dad was invasive?
Um, things like, like, like he would, I'd be in my room.
This isn't, this is after he was drinking.
I don't really have a lot of, again, I don't really have a lot of memories of when he was drinking.
Sorry, when you say after he was drinking, do you mean after he stopped drinking?
Right, exactly. After he stopped drinking.
Sorry. Yeah, he would do things like, he would yell at me pretty often, and I'd be in my room and he would throw his boot at my door and make big loud noises for me to come out and get him a glass of water or something like that.
Oh my gosh, okay. I'm so sorry.
Go on. Yeah, well, yeah, just basically not really respecting any of, like, my time or space.
That's what I mean. Right, and I'm obviously very, very sorry to hear about all of that.
That's a lot to manage, of course, as a kid, and it is scary, and it kind of works, right?
Because when your boundaries aren't respected, you end up really focusing on external stimuli to the detriment of your own inner life, right?
Right. Right. And the feelings that you had when you saw the woman throwing up in front, it was a woman, right?
Yes. Right. When you saw the woman throwing up in front of the subway store, were the feelings at all similar to anything that you'd felt, I guess, as a kid, if we're talking about something that's very early?
Um... Yeah, I'm not really, I can't really recall feeling like that when I was a kid.
I just, I know that, you know, pretty much every time I've seen somebody throw up besides, you know, myself or, like, my husband, I've pretty much had the same, like, really panicky reaction.
Right. Okay, well, let me spin a silly theory, and you can tell me if it makes any sense at all or if it's completely off the mark.
Go for it.
Vomiting is obviously, it's taking something which is unhealthy for you and, you know, dumping it out into the world, right?
Right. And it is, it's one of these things that is either involuntary or, in a sense, only semi-voluntary.
And what I mean by that is that there are times when you just throw up because you're sick and you can't stop it, right?
But there are other times, and I'll just speak for myself, right?
Like, I don't have any problems with my digestion, but one thing I have noticed is that I have a pretty sensitive stomach.
And what I mean by that is, if I eat something that's kind of bad, then I'll get sick, even if other people don't.
Like, I'm more sensitive to To a kind of food poisoning than most people would be.
And I think that's actually a good thing.
I mean, because you don't want to be not sensitive to that kind of bacteria, right?
Right. Now, so what that means is that when I've eaten something that I think is bad, sometimes I will just make myself throw up.
And what I mean by that is like maybe once every two years as an adult.
Like I've eaten something and it's like, ooh, this isn't sitting well.
And I kind of know that if it stays in my system, then I might like lose a whole day because I'll just be lying in bed feeling headachy and nauseous, right?
Mm-hmm. And so what I'll do is I'll, you know, do the old jam your finger.
And sorry to be so graphic, but I'll just jam my finger in my throat and make myself throw up and then I'm all better, right?
Mm-hmm. And in the latter instance, and again, this is a totally silly theory, but if it has any resonance, you can know, right?
So the thought that sort of struck me is that the idea that you have something that is bad within you and you voluntarily kind of yak it up to the detriment of others, and again, obviously my Christina is sympathetic, but it's not exactly something she wants to see or be involved in, right? Right.
That that has kind of...
That kind of strikes me as metaphorical to somebody, like a parent, let's say your dad or mom or whatever, who has, you know, stress or anxiety or self-hatred or rage or something like that, and they kind of yak it up into their environment rather than dealing with it themselves, if that makes any sense. It's like they're...
What DeMoss calls the children as poison containers, you know, that the poison...
That the poisoned emotions and thoughts that the parents have are acted out against the children, which gives the parents some kind of relief.
And it just struck me, and again, it's a total stretch, and I'm aware maybe it means nothing at all.
But I was wondering the degree to which it might not remind you of a parent, let's say, who had some kind of stress or anxiety or self-hatred, or who was just, in a sense, vomiting it up into the environment to your detriment.
That makes a lot of sense.
That does make a lot of sense to me.
I'm shocked. Go on. Yeah, my dad was definitely, definitely like that.
I was like an anxiety dumpster for him.
Okay, can you tell, I mean, again, I don't want to, if you don't want to talk about it, that's fine, but if you could just tell me a little bit more, I'm always shocked to be right about such an outlandish theory, so, you know, if that works, that's great.
I just, I would like to hear more, and of course, I don't mean that just with the cold eye towards confirming a theory, but, you know, with a lot of sympathy as well.
Yeah, no, it makes sense to me in the sense where...
I guess I'm stuck.
Sorry?
Sorry to create a big pause in your podcast.
No, no, that's totally fine. Look, I don't want you to talk about anything you're not comfortable with, right?
I mean, if this is enough, then you can take it to your therapist.
You certainly don't have to share anything here, but that was the connection that I sort of made in my mind.
Yeah, that connection does make sense.
Again, like, my dad...
I do understand the whole poison container and, you know, with the lack of boundaries, my dad would sort of yell at me and say whatever he was feeling anxiety about without really considering how that would be affecting me.
Right. Yeah, and people who are helpless, People who lack self-knowledge or who lack the desire or willingness to introspect, they feel helpless in the face of their own emotions.
Their own emotions overwhelm them in a terrifying manner, and what they then usually want to do is to assert power over someone else, to frighten someone else, to bully someone else, to invade someone else's space, to re-establish a form of control.
It's sort of like I am possessed by a devil, and the only way I can get rid of this devil is to kind of yak it up into my kids.
And again, this is not every parent, of course, right?
But it just sounds a little bit similar to what you're talking about.
And that kind of semi-voluntary yakking up of bad things would seem to be similar, metaphorically, to the phobia you hit.
Right. Yeah, yeah, that does make sense.
And it makes sense that I would kind of be put back into that panic, you know, when I'm seeing somebody else literally throw up.
Right, right, right.
I mean, there's lots of metaphorical links between digestion and speech.
You know, just think of the phrase verbal diarrhea.
Right.
And these kinds of things where there is this idea that words can be like bowel movements or can be like farts or can, you know, whatever it is.
There does seem to be this link between digestion and language in many metaphorical ways.
And of course, the gut instinct and all that has scientific merit.
It has a scientific basis.
For instance, there are more nerve endings in the digestive system than there are in the entire spinal cord.
It is kind of like a second brain for a human being.
So there's gut instinct, gut sense.
And given that the anxiety that a lot of people manage manifests itself in the gut, Again, this is all stretch, all metaphorical, but it just might help figure out the connection.
The idea that digestion is associated with speech is, you know, when we say someone is bullshitting, right, they're lying.
And so we have the word shit with falsehoods, right?
And there's an old phrase when I was a kid, you're so full of shit, your eyes are brown.
In other words, you're talking...
Digestion and language is strongly associated in the unconscious and in the nervous system itself.
So that may have some parallels for you, not just metaphorically, but for yourself as well.
Yeah, that does make sense.
When I feel anxiety, I usually do feel it in my digestive system.
Yeah, everybody does. Now, this is not to include ulcers, apparently, of course, by bacteria, not stress.
But I was just reading this article, and it's sort of coincidental that we're talking about this.
I was just reading this article about how antidepressants are a very effective treatment for irritable bowel syndrome.
Mm-hmm. I don't want to stretch it too much,
but if this is a good connection for you, then I would certainly suggest talking about it more with your therapist.
I can guarantee you that there will be something very, very important here for you.
Because all this stuff that recurs for us, in my experience, it's not about the past.
Fundamentally, it's about the future.
And I think learning to make this connection may certainly help to free you from anxiety that might reside within your digestive system that could cause problems.
Thank you very much.
I appreciate your insights on that.
You're welcome. It was definitely an arrow over a house, but I'm glad we hit some kind of bullseye, at least possibly.
Thank you so much. That was an excellent, excellent question.
And I think it opened up a lot of, dare I say it, fertile ground.
So thank you. I think we had another fine young lady who wished to bring up a question.
Yes, can you hear me?
I would like to talk about fear that I feel when I imagine talking to you and to FDR as a group.
Sorry, could you just repeat that when you think about what?
When I think about talking to you guys.
Oh, as a group. Oh, so sorry, I made you repeat it.
Could you just move your microphone a little bit away from your mouth?
You're just overburdening it a bit.
Is it better? It's perfectly fine, and I appreciate that.
There's nothing more horrible, and hopefully you won't throw up, because we know what that's going to do to form a caller.
There's nothing more horrible than saying to a group, I'm scared of you.
So, I hugely appreciate the courage that that takes, and I will obviously try my very best to be nice.
No, I'm just kidding. So, tell me a little bit more.
Well, I just feel...
a really intense anxiety and fear.
And yeah, I'm just scared.
And you're feeling that at the moment, right?
Yes, I'm feeling this right now.
Right. And what circumstances does it show up for you in the community?
Is it in the chat room or on the board or on I AM or in these calls or other places?
It's only around FDR. It was in the beginning when I started with the chatroom.
I was on a couple of calls just to practice, just being there.
Yeah, it was also the Skype thing, or is still.
I don't know.
A million things, maybe.
Well, and I guess my first question would be, since it's always good to start early and start young, when you were a very young kid, was there a group of geeky philosophers who were like a gang and who were like really mean and took everyone's free will?
No. Okay, good.
Well, it's good to have certain possibilities right up front.
That's very, very good.
Okay, so is the experience that you have with this group different from experiences that you have in other groups?
In other words, are you more comfortable talking in other groups?
I think you said it was just this group, but do you do a lot of talking with other groups?
I do talk in groups.
Not in the same way, I guess.
Are there particular topics that make you more or less anxious to talk about, or is it all topics?
I think when it comes to courage, it's something I'm a bit sensitive about.
Do you mean topics of courage?
Yes. And what sort of topics...
I'm sorry, go ahead. Yeah, well, my anxiety always peaks, even if I only read this word.
Right, right.
I feel like choking right now.
I just have to talk about it.
Right. Now, you know, my theory is...
I'm sure you know what I'm going to say next, which is that the reason that you feel anxious around the word courage is that you have an enormous capacity for courage.
You have great courage.
Well, yeah, I guess so too.
I mean, does that make sense?
Because the reason I say that is that when I was younger and I wanted to be an actor, right, when I went to theater school, I would watch the Oscars with more than a passing interest because I was like, oh man, I'm going to be an actor and I'm going to win an Oscar.
So I got a great deal of excitement and anxiety and fear and tension when watching the Oscars.
And then when I watched myself act, that went away.
No, I'm kidding. But it was because I had a great desire for something that I felt a great deal of anxiety and fear and all of these complex emotions around that topic, if that makes any sense.
Yes. So if the word courage is giving to anxiety, my guess it would be because...
You have a great capacity.
There's courage within you.
There's a great deal of courage within you that wants to emerge and express itself.
Yes. I feel better already.
Go on. Oh, I'm on fire today, baby.
Well, it's also...
I just gotta wave.
Wait a second, please.
Oh, just a second.
Okay.
People used in the past to pressure me.
And saying, if I wouldn't do what they say, I would be a coward.
And I think this has a lot to do with my fear.
And since this was a group, I guess it's just that I'm Give it another try here.
right okay and what sort of stuff would you be asked to do or face the condemnation of cowardice so I thought about it a bit and And the picture that always came to my mind when I thought about the fear talking to you is my memory when I was five years old.
And the oldest boy of my neighbors, there were like 5 or 4 boys, I don't know, and the oldest guy, he was around 12 or 14, I don't know, and he wanted me to prove that I was courageous And said,
if I wouldn't, would fuck with one of his brothers, I would be a coward.
Sorry, with what?
With one of his brothers?
That one of his brothers would rape me?
And if I would say, and I said no, I think, because then he said I was a coward and I had this smile on his face, and this is what I see, what is haunting me.
Sure. Okay, so I just want to make sure that I'm following what you're saying, right?
Yes. So again, I just want to be really precise.
How old were you when this was occurring?
Five years. Five years ago.
We just moved into this place.
Right. We moved just a couple of weeks before, together with my father that I haven't seen before.
I cannot remember seeing him at all before that because he lived six hours away and I only saw him like every sixth week for a weekend, I guess.
I don't have any clear memories about it.
And at one point we moved up to where he worked and these were my first attempts to make friends.
Okay, go on. This was a little bit...
Like, when I started with FDR, I sent you a letter last year.
And it's the same fear since then.
Right, right. Yeah, I recall that.
Yes. I already feel better.
Okay, and so when you were with these...
It was two boys, right?
Two brothers, is that right? It were five brothers.
You were playing with five brothers, is that right?
I don't know if you can play with older boys of this age.
I tried. Sorry, how old were the boys?
I think the youngest was seven or eight.
Another one was nine.
One was ten. And I think the guy who asked or demanded it was twelve or fourteen or even sixteen.
And his, sorry, and his statement, if I understand you correctly, and again I mean this with all sympathy, I just want to make sure I understand.
So his statement to you was, you are a coward if you don't let us rape you, is that right?
He said, okay I'll try.
I don't remember his first sentence.
It must have been something.
I want you to do this and that.
And I properly said no or didn't say anything or tried to hide.
Sorry, and the this and that, was it some form of sexuality, some sort of sex play?
I mean, play is probably the wrong word, but is that what he meant?
He said it very clear.
He said...
I want you to fuck with one of my brothers.
He said this word.
I remember this very clear.
Okay, go on. Yes, and when I... I don't know if I said no or if I just didn't say anything, but I remember the sentence very clear that he said, you are a coward.
Right. If you don't submit to this from one of my brothers, then you're a coward.
Is that right? He just said, then you are a coward.
Okay. Obviously, this is completely beyond evil and wretched beyond words.
I know. I really do sympathize with this.
This is an absolutely unholy thing.
Beyond unholy, right?
To occur to a five-year-old.
And look, I'm more than happy to do whatever it takes to do whatever I can to help you with this.
And again, I mean, this is not for a therapist.
I know it's tough stuff.
I'm sorry? I know it's tough stuff.
No, no, don't worry about me.
Don't worry about me. You don't have to manage my feelings in this situation.
Just focus on what you feel.
Don't worry about me. I'm fine.
It didn't happen to me, right?
So I'll do what I can to be there for you.
But don't worry about how I feel, right?
This is just focus on how you feel, right?
That's the important thing. I feel very happy right now that you listen to me.
Sure. Now, do you want to continue to talk about what happened?
Would you like me to ask questions?
What would be the easiest for you?
I just want to say one more thing, just because it also has to do with, I guess, because I'm so happy that you listened to me, because I was turning around this in my head for the last two days.
I told my parents afterwards, and the reaction of my father was he turned his head and ignored me and didn't say anything, and so did my mother.
And I'm really glad that you listen, and I'm glad that everybody else is listening too.
Thank you. Okay.
Yeah, please. Obviously, we're happy to listen.
Obviously, nobody could ever imagine to be happy that it happened, but this is a place where the sympathy is always with the victim.
This is what FDR is all about.
And obviously, as a five-year-old girl, there's nothing but complete victimhood for you in this.
So the sympathy is always with the victim here, because that's the moral reality of the situation that you were in.
Okay. I'm calm.
Yes. Please go on.
Now, would you like to keep talking about what happened?
Because all I know is the words and the aftermath.
I don't know what happened, but I don't want to push you to talk about that.
I'm perfectly content to listen to it if you want, or I have other questions that I can ask.
It's whatever is going to be best for you.
I would like you to ask me to help me to get a new insight on it, something I'm blind about.
Right. No, I understand.
Now, help me understand how a five-year-old girl ends up in a private Area where something just heinous can occur with five boys and again this is nothing to do with you, but I'm just trying to understand where was the damn parenting in this situation?
At this time when we just moved there I had the feeling I had no parents at all.
I had no rules.
Nobody cared if or when I came home.
My mother was absorbed with my father.
I don't know.
I had the feeling he was actually jealous of me, and I had to compete for attention from my mother.
I was non-existent at that time.
So I was a lot of times outside, Bumping in whoever was outside too.
You mean you were just kind of like like in a sense running wild it was like just go out and play yes i actually did it i ran away in the morning came back when i was hungry or when it got dark and this is this is like did it start at the age of five or did it start before then Before that, we lived in another place.
It was different before.
I think I ran away in the place before once.
I must have been four or five.
It was summertime, so I must have just turned five, I guess.
And only one memory that I was That still sticks in my mind and is actually one of my earliest memories.
It's me running away and sitting on a fence watching the sunset.
And then I saw finally my mother and my sister crossing the street and picking me up.
To bring me home. And I did that in a new place a lot of times.
And what is it in your home that you were fleeing or escaping?
The rage of my father.
The insecurity I felt.
The insecurity.
The non-existence?
I felt I was a burden to everybody.
I just tried to disappear, I guess.
Right. Right, okay.
Now, again, I'm perfectly willing to talk about the incident, this rape that you've talked about.
I'm perfectly happy to talk about that some more.
But I have other questions, and I'm perfectly happy to take your lead on this.
Just go on where you want to lead.
Okay. Do you feel that this Crime that was committed against you.
Do you feel that it has left you with a kind of stain?
Yes.
Okay, tell me a little bit more about that.
What can I explain?
Well, it wasn't my choice.
I cannot turn the time back.
I feel as if people could see it.
The stain, not the crime, right?
As if I have a brand mark somewhere on my forehead.
Right, right. And what does the red mark signify?
What is it that people see when they see the red mark?
It's your fault.
Go on. That is what I... I don't know.
It comes to my mind just like that.
I don't know what it means.
Yes, you do. Come on, don't try that with me.
Don't try that one with me.
You've listened to enough conversations to know that doesn't work.
Go on. It's your fault.
Go on. Is it your responsibility?
You said yes.
You could have run away.
You could have said no.
You were such a coward.
Yeah, that's about it so far.
Yeah.
And are you entirely sure That you didn't say no.
Because the memory of a five-year-old is inconsistent.
The memory of anything that happens when we're five is inconsistent to say the least, right?
I'm pretty sure that four to eighty percent I said no.
Yeah, I'm sure that you did and I'm sure that if you had felt that there was some safety We're good to go.
that come with us by the grace of the womb.
And I am entirely convinced, without knowing any more details, that you doubtless handled this situation in the wisest and smartest and best way.
Oh, my God.
Oh.
I thought that too.
Even if I would have ran away, there were five.
They were all so much older.
And when we're facing a situation of a violation like rape, One of the most dangerous things that you could have done would have been to be in the situation of rape while have provoked their anger or rage at the same time.
You know what I mean, right?
Of course. Rape is a dangerous enough thing for a child to be subjected to without the additional Testosterone and adrenaline that would have been provoked in these monstrous boys by the act of trying to run away or get help, if that makes sense. You're right.
They could have killed me.
It was in a forest, you know.
Right, they could have killed you or they could have raped you in such a way that you would have ended up with permanent or disfiguring physical damage.
I feel a lot better already. *Gasp* I'm really calm.
And I want to tell you something which I'm sure you know, but I just want to reinforce it, and I'm not going to pretend this is anything you haven't thought about a million times.
I just want to remind you from the outside that you carry no stain whatsoever.
that you carry no stain from this crime whatsoever.
That this was a terrible circumstance, the responsibility of which primarily falls upon your parents, not even upon these boys.
And there, the dysfunction of raping little girls falls upon their parents.
And possibly, to some degree, among the oldest boy, right?
Who was old enough to know better.
But obviously, these children are simply acting out the forced sexuality that doubtless they had been experienced.
They were simply reproducing the rapes that they themselves had experienced within their own families from adults, right?
The guy who raped me was forced to...
Of course. He didn't want to do that either.
Right, right.
These kinds of reproductions are designed to help us master feelings of rage and terror.
These boys were raped by adults within their lives, and therefore they are reproducing that.
And they were able to do this to you because you were essentially...
Alone in the world.
You had no protection. At all.
Right? None.
Nobody. Not even friends.
I left them all behind.
What do you mean? I had no friends.
I left them all behind when we moved.
I was totally on my own.
Entirely. Sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you.
No, no, listen, your words are infinitely more important than mine in this matter.
Now, of course, the crime of rape is really one of the ultimate acts of what we were talking about with Marissa, which is this poison container, right?
It is a way, and again, this is just my interpretation, right?
I mean, so I'm not saying there's anything true about this, but this is the way that I process crimes of this magnitude.
The internal self-loathing violation and self-hatred that is carried by the rapist, he gains relief from it by inflicting that same shame, self-hatred and terror on someone else.
And the rape is merely the mechanism of transmission for this kind of virus of self-loathing and self-hatred, if that makes any sense.
Yes. And the degree to which You don't fight the stain, the red mark that you talked of, is the degree to which the rapist wins.
Yes. And you don't want the rapist to win.
No, I don't.
And there's nothing that you did but survive, like in a war.
There's nothing that you did but survive.
There's no complicity.
There's no choice. There was no support.
There was no protection, even after the fact when you told your parents.
All you did when you were driven out of the house by the hostility, rage, and indifference of your parents was you entered into a state of nature where all you were trying to do was to survive. and indifference of your parents was you entered into a And the honor is in the survival.
And it's completely bizarre, I understand it, to think of honor in a situation of rape.
But the honor is in the survival and the throwing off of guilt and shame for something which you would never in a million years have chosen for yourself or even your worst enemy.
Right.
There is no shame but in the acceptance of shame for what you did not choose and would never have chosen.
And we don't let evil win.
No, I don't want him to win.
Right.
We don't let evil win.
And you're not alone.
I know that we all feel that we're so alone with these kinds of things, but you're really not.
According to pretty reasonable statistics, a half to two-thirds of girls don't necessarily go through exactly what you went through, but go through some sort of sexual inappropriateness as children.
Yes.
Children as a whole seem to be like a creepy kind of sex farm for a lot of people in society.
And you're not alone in this.
You are singular in your courage.
And I hope that you appreciate the amount of courage it takes to talk about these things in this way.
And that the courage you are showing at the moment is completely magnificent.
Because to speak about it openly with the understanding that the honor is in the survival and in the rejection of shame, there is no dishonor in having been assaulted in this way when you're alone.
Yes.
I survived.
And you survived the smartest and best and most positive way that you could.
And you survived your childhood as a whole.
And I'm sure, as both know, this is not the only bad thing that happened, right?
No. Far from.
It's the most important part, I guess.
Right. Right. Everything ties back to it.
But no, of course not.
And so what it was that you had to survive was...
It's worse than a war, in my opinion.
Because a war is not personal, right?
So my mother grew up in Germany in the 1940s when the stupid and pointless...
Allied bombing of cities, which was entirely against the rules of war and served only to lengthen the war.
If they'd focused on industrial production, the war would have been shortened by a year or two.
But the stupid and pointless bombing of civilians pursued by the allies that my mother lived through, right?
Screaming, running from house to house as they all burst into shrapnel.
That is a terrifying and violating environment, obviously.
But it's not personal.
Bombs are just dropping. No one's trying to kill my mom.
They're just dropping bombs, right?
They don't get more dangerous when you run away.
Sorry, go ahead. They're not more dangerous when you run away.
They don't have any intelligence.
Right. In a war, when there's bombing going, it's not personal, but the difference is, of course, what happened with you.
And I'm speaking primarily of your parents.
I mean, as you understand, the rape was merely an effect.
Of your parents. I mean, what kind of stupid, inhuman bastards drive a five-year-old child out to wander the streets from dawn till dawn?
That staggers the imagination.
It's incredible.
It's unbelievable. It's astoundingly evil parenting.
And it really was, I hate to say it, With a child this unprotected and driven out into a harsh and dangerous world at the age of five, it was only a matter of time.
it was inevitable of course and it was either going to be this or going to be hit by a car or being beaten up or being kidnapped or something right I mean if I were to drive my daughter out into the streets even in this neighborhood from dawn till dusk at the age of five of course something bad is going to happen to her
Something terrible. Of course.
It's a kid. She's not going to have any sense of self-protection because she never will have experienced any self-protection.
so she's simply going to have to fall back to rely upon the instincts to survive predators, whether they are animal or human.
I did a good job to protect myself back then.
Yeah. You have arrived at adulthood without crippling injuries, without insanity, without massive substance abuse, without alcoholism.
with I mean this is incredible heroic I'm surprised too that I'm still Right, right. There should be no medals for soldiers because what soldiers do is pitiful compared to what five-year-old children can do in terms of courage and survival.
The only medals should be for children.
The only heroes in the world are under five feet tall.
Under four feet tall and sometimes under three or less.
The only heroes in the world are children.
and I would certainly put you at the forefront of that honored group.
Thank you so much.
It's not what we suffer that defines us.
It's what we survive. I feel in a really warm place right now.
I'm very glad.
Well, I hope that you're reading some of the comments that are in the chat window about your courage and nobility.
I will. Because you started off the call by saying, I have a problem with courage.
right I think not isn't that like Michael Phelps starting off the Olympics by saying I think I have a problem with swimming Oh, look! 18 golds.
Thank you, guys. Now, I don't, I mean, I've certainly said my piece.
Obviously, I can say more about it.
You know, since you're in a warm and good place, I don't want to mess with that.
Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about with regards to this or any other topic?
I'm all ears.
I think I'm good for today.
Okay. Thank you so much, Steph.
I really appreciate this.
There's no stain. The only stain accrues to your parents.
That was a missing piece, Steph, when you said that.
That was a missing piece.
Right, because for you, it's you and these kids, right?
But this is freaking Lord of the Flies, right?
You might as well have a pig's head, right?
I mean, this is completely Lord of the Flies.
This is a bunch of children who've been abused, who are taking it out on each other.
And for God's sake, don't think I'm trying to tell you to have sympathy for these rapists or these children.
But the crime flows uphill to the parents and rests alone with them, not with the children.
Very true. Yes.
Because obviously these kids would have done this to other children, may still be doing it now.
You had no power to prevent that recurrence in the future, but your parents had every power, every power to prevent these crimes from recurring and did nothing.
Oh, they could have done a lot.
Yeah, they could have done it all. They could have exposed this whole pedophilia thing that was going on in this other family.
They could have prevented this from happening to other kids, but they didn't, right?
Not at all. They just ignored me.
Because this is abused by proxy, right?
This is like, well, I'm too lazy to abuse my children, so I'm just going to drive them out and let the cold world do it for me.
Right.
They were agents of your parents, right?
*shriek* Of course. They did my parents a favor.
Yes. And because what they did was then they ensured that you would feel this stain, that you would feel this isolation of this crime around you like a shell.
And therefore you would not make contacts with other children.
You would not develop new friendships, which meant that they were free to abuse you as they pleased because you would not have the linkage of other children.
To talk to these family crimes about, right?
The isolation through trauma that they needed was inflicted by the world they drove you into at a ridiculously inappropriate age.
Oh man, they let somebody else do the dirty work?
Yeah, absolutely. That's even worse.
Yeah, it's like, I don't want to strangle my kid, I'll just keep driving her onto a busy street and then pretend to be shocked when she gets hit by a car, right?
And nobody can point the finger onto them.
Well, quite the contrary.
I would get sympathy, right?
This is the Munchausen's by proxy syndrome.
I would get sympathy for that which I'm actually inflicting, right?
Now, I'm not saying that's the case with your parents, because I don't think they broadcasted this, but this abuse by proxy is something that's important for people to understand, right?
right they're not not every blow that falls on us comes directly from those in power over us who are dysfunctional i didn't really get the last one Oh, it just means that not every blow that falls on us when we are abused children comes from those who have power over us, right?
But they will enlist others to do their work, right?
Yes. I mean, this can be as complex as if you do not help your child do his homework, the teacher will yell at him for you, right?
Oh, man. Yes.
If you create an environment where studying is impossible...
The teacher will put down your china.
Go on. Yeah, that's true.
I could write a book about it.
Yeah, I mean, my mother put me into a school where I needed a uniform and she never gave me a clean and pressed uniform.
I mean, so I would get yelled at or I had to bring money for lunch every day because she didn't ever make me any lunch.
Half the time there was no money and I had to go and tell them I had no money and they'd kind of look me down and write my name down and tell me to bring the money in and then I wouldn't have the money.
So all of these humiliations and it's all part of a whole system, right?
I mean, parents outsource this stuff regularly.
This is so cowardly.
Yeah, it is. It is.
it is but it's clever because it makes us feel more like we're to blame right yeah because it doesn't come directly from them This makes sense.
I mean, my mother would give me I would have dirty clothes.
There was never any mouthwash.
Sometimes we were out of soap, right?
So I was unkempt and sometimes smelly, right?
I had awkward clothing.
People make jokes about me in school.
Right. Right. Now I had the most...
I mean, my mother would go to Goodfell and buy me 65 pound, right?
It's not funny. Don't be laughing with me about this.
No. It's tragic, right?
Because it's all designed to keep you isolated and to keep yourself incriminating, right?
Right. Of course.
To keep me something special out of the line.
To make you feel like you are looking at the rest of society through a dark, thick, unbreakable glass wall.
And that you are carved off from the herd and can only wander the outskirts, gnawing at your fingernails and wondering why you never fit in.
And that's the life that we are fitted out for.
And it takes a lot of work to reject that provoked isolation.
To swerve aside from the loneliness and self-management that we were propelled towards like a spaceship being launched into the depths of space.
That's where we're launched.
It takes a lot of fuel to change that course.
And to return back to the world, back to people, and say, I have no stain.
I have only the honor of survival.
And I have a strength that you who did not traverse these wastelands will never understand.
I don't blame you for that.
In fact, I envy you for that.
I don't want my daughter to have that kind of strength.
But my survival is the aristocracy of courage.
I am a blue blood of survival.
I have the aristocracy of having made it through the most dangerous jungles in the history of the species.
I am the Indiana Jones of my history.
And you who have grown up in comfort and ease and plenty are fine and nice people and I envy you for your histories.
But I will not for one second take the courage and flourishing of my survival, of my traversing perils which you cannot even imagine.
I will not for one second take that as shame, as a lowering of myself.
If you've never had to survive a war, you don't know what courage is.
And I don't resent the fact that other people don't know what courage is, because they haven't had to survive these things.
Thank you.
And they don't know what self-knowledge is because they have not had to unearth the innocence that has grown alongside the shame from the crimes.
But this survival is a mark of courage and self-esteem.
Of pride! Not of shame.
The shame lies with two groups.
The shame lies with those who committed such crimes.
And the shame lies with everyone else who was not subject to such crimes who did nothing to help me or to help you.
The whole world, the whole of society That drifts and dreams and mutters along.
Oh, we want to help the poor.
Oh, we want to help the aged.
Oh, we want to help the sick.
Oh, we support government spending and this, that and the other.
Oh, we're all about helping people.
And yet children are regularly mauled and mowed down in their midst and they do nothing.
And then they expect us to feel shame.
Never! The shame accrues to those who commit the crimes and even more so to those who stood by and did nothing though they knew.
That is where the shame lies.
Not with us who had to survive in the absence of a helping hand from any of these virtuous adults in society.
The shame does not lie with us.
And of course everybody wants us to feel the shame because if we don't, they will.
If we don't feel the shame unjustly, they will feel the just shame and then they will blame us.
But those who do nothing to help children suffering and staggering under such attacks and violations and rapes and heavy loads and beatings and verbal abuses, those who do nothing though they hear and they see every day what is occurring, those people should carry the burden of shame.
Not us. Who attempted to survive without the protection of this noble society with its social fucking contract and virtue.
Supposed virtue, right?
That's what's so funny.
People talk about the social contract, right?
How about a social contract which says reach out to help and protect children who are being abused?
Nobody ever talks about that one.
It's all about Taxation and loyalty to the realm.
What bullshit.
If people want to pick up even a shred of honor in this cold world, protect the children.
And if you don't protect the children, that's fine.
Accept the shame and humiliation of your cowardice and inaction, but do not expect the children to carry one shred of blame or shame for having survived Because I won't take a shred of it.
And I won't believe the protestations of virtue in a world that did nothing to help me.
I will not accept the protestations of virtue in a world that does nothing but throw poor Tom to the wolves and continue to collude with the media and his mother.
I will accept no statement of virtue from a society Which left me in a crowd to be mauled by a wolf, a she-wolf, and left the hundreds of listeners that I have talked to, not one of whom has ever talked about intervention from an adult, to help protect them in the face of abuse from their caregivers.
I will not listen to one shred of protestation of virtue from those in the world who stand by and let children get mauled by involuntary predators.
And then say to the children, explicitly or implicitly, no, you should feel shame because it is you who are to blame for what you had to endure.
And this is why the supposed virtue of the world is just a lie.
Right? Because if the world is not willing to lift a hand to protect children from the abuses of their caregivers, then don't talk to me about virtue About anything else.
If people won't lift a hand to make a call to protect children, as Christina has done, as I have done, as other listeners have done, as we are trying to teach people to do, because that's the bare minimum of virtue that is needed in the world, is care enough to pick up the phone and call someone when a child is being abused.
Hundreds of people in my life knew all about it.
Hundreds of people in Tom's life knew all about it.
Hundreds of people in these listeners' lives knew all about it.
And not one person that I know of did anything about any of it.
And if people aren't willing to make a phone call to protect a child, don't talk to me about social security and welfare and unemployment insurance and your care for the poor in the third world.
It is embarrassing, pompous, self-aggrandizing nonsense, and I will hear none of it.
And I will believe none of it.
The virtue of the world as it speaks of.
Until people will at least pick up a phone or confront a parent who is abusing a child.
When people can manage that level of moral action, I will listen to their ethics about other things.
But until they can do that, until the world finds that to be an acceptable habit to pursue, I will not listen to anybody's protestations of virtue and integrity.
I'm just writing about this in the book, but you know, I received probably about a thousand emails and communications about Tom's story. I received probably about a thousand emails and communications about you Thank you.
Five million people at least were exposed to the story.
Maybe a million, maybe 800,000 read it.
A bunch of people emailed me.
Tens and tens of thousands of people downloaded that podcast.
I got threats of violence, threats of suing, one death threat.
I got, you know, the usual creepy stuff.
I got some letters of support.
You know, Steph, I think you're doing the right thing.
Steph, I learned about your website.
It's great stuff. Of the thousand or more communications that I got about Tom's story, from people who heard him weeping about his childhood, Can you guess how many of these morally concerned citizens expressed even the tiniest shred of sympathy for the cruelty and abuse that Tom suffered for 18 years?
I can tell you, though it's a sad thing to say.
Not one.
Not one person said, I can't believe Tom suffered this much for 18 years.
This was even after the mother had confessed about the abuse.
Not one person said, hey, if you're in touch with Tom, please send him my sympathies for what he went through.
That's just awful. People sympathized with me.
Like, why? Because people were typing bad things about me?
Who gives a shit? I'm 42 years old.
I'm not made of glass. But Tom, as a child, that is where our sympathies should lie.
And this is the moral state of the world that we live in.
That of Millions of people who were exposed and thousands of people who communicated about it, whether they emailed to me or blogged, not one person that I ever saw anywhere on the internet or anywhere in my inbox or anywhere on YouTube or anywhere on the board, except for people at FDR, not one person expressed the tiniest shred of sympathy for the only victim in the circumstance, which was Tom.
If Tom had been arrested and had suffered an extraordinary rendition to Syria and had been tortured for 18 years, can you imagine that people would write about that without expressing a single shred of sympathy for the torture that Tom had experienced for 18 years as an adult in a Turkish or Syrian jail? can you imagine that people would write about that without That's the first thing that people would talk about.
Thank you.
Thank you.
But this is where the world is.
This is the empirical facts of where the world is.
That out of this whole hubbub, nobody except people at FDR and myself have expressed any sympathy for the child that was and the courageous young man that is and for what he suffered for 18 years.
This is where the world is in terms of ethics.
It simply will not see the suffering of children and until we see and work to alleviate the suffering of children there will be no freedom or peace in this world because we grow up either with hatred for ourselves or hatred for the world and that hatred poisons everything there will be no freedom from superstition There will be no freedom from war.
There will be no freedom from crime.
There will be no freedom from violence.
There will be no freedom from assault or theft or rape.
Until we can feel the tiniest inkling of sympathy for children who are abused.
And anybody who claims that they want to bring freedom or peace or virtue to the world who is unable to see the suffering of children even when it is recorded and available for free over the internet is full of the most astoundingly pompous shit that you can imagine.
Anybody who talks about wanting to free the world and does not even care a tiny little bit about the torture and suffering of a child for 18 years is an embarrassment to the theory and practice of even the most elemental and obvious virtues.
So we have to lead this charge.
We don't have to. We don't have to.
We can do whatever we want.
But if the goal is the promised land Of a free and virtuous and peaceful society where children are protected rather than pillaged and that pillaging avoided by the, quote, virtuous people in society.
If our goal is the promised land, then we have to pass over the high mountains of people's indifference to the suffering of children.
There's no other way. There's no other way.
This is how ridiculous, when you see this, this is how ridiculous it looks to publish papers About Lincoln and the Fed.
Or to try and get votes in a political system.
There is no point in taking on the evils of the world without first communicating, accepting, understanding and sympathizing with the suffering of children.
There's no other way.
Because it's the only way.
That hasn't been tried.
Or if it has been tried, given what came out of this media stuff, it has utterly, utterly, utterly failed.
And it is the hardest part, right?
Because when you begin to talk about the suffering of children, people get all kinds of crazy and staticky, recreate the abuse or the avoidance that they're habituated to.
Again, this is not theory, these are just facts.
And it was entirely predicted before we hit Podcast 100 years ago.
Everything that has occurred over the past few months is nothing but a complete validation with a pretty impressive statistical sampling of everything that we talked about from the beginning.
There is not one thing that has occurred that has contradicted the slightest iota of what we have talked about almost from the very beginning.
And I sure wish that we weren't this validated.
I wish that 50% of people had expressed sympathy for the abused child, or 25%, or 10%, or 5%, or even 1%.
But this is the universality of the hostility or the indifference towards the suffering of children that we face.
And that's why the world is not free.
And until we face it, the world will not be free.
And that was a long speech, but an important one, I think.
Because the book How to Achieve Freedom, which...
In which I'm working with this sort of stuff, in parts, is going to be a little volatile, right?
Because, you know, I have said, well, there are no really good parents, right?
And I've been quoted about that, and that's considered to be an unimaginably strange thing to say.
I don't say there are no good parents.
There's no really good parents. And I don't believe that every child is abused in the way that Some people here, myself, have been abused.
I don't believe that. I don't believe that.
I know that. That's not true. So my question is, I can understand why those who were themselves abused as children and haven't dealt with it at all might react with hostility about tales of child abuse.
My question is, where, oh where, are all the people who were raised better?
Where In this conflict designed to raise the profile of battered and broken children, where in this conflict are the people who were raised better, who did not suffer rape, who were not beaten, who did not suffer verbal abuse?
Where are these people?
Where are they?
If they were raised better, then they should have sympathy and empathy.
Yet they do not speak.
They don't even raise their voices, there's not even a murmur.
They slither out of the room, these people who were raised better.
How could that be? If they're raised better, they should have more sympathy and empathy.
Anyway, I'll go into the reasons why I think it's the case in the book, but It's worth pondering the question, I think.
And the reason that I'm saying all of this is that I don't want you, the woman who was just talking, to feel alone in this.
We all went through it to varying degrees and we all continue to go through it.
And the shame feels like such an overwhelming burden because the shame of a society that let this happen, though it knew, is unbearable.
And everybody wants... The abused children to feel the shame so they don't have to feel the shame of their own inaction.
Right? Why is Tom's mom going for me?
It's a bad conscience. She knows she should have done something to protect her son.
So people will try to make you feel ashamed and guilty and not just your parents but other people, the people who did nothing, the people who themselves know of an abused child somewhere, in the building, on the street, in the family, anywhere.
and who've done nothing. They don't want to talk about this topic because it raises for them the cowardice of their own inaction and the hollow notes of their own self-proclaimed virtue in any other area if they have failed to protect a child they know of who is being hurt.
This shame that people want us to feel is itself not personal and fundamentally has nothing to do with us.
It is to do with the bad conscience that other people have As a result of their own indifference and evasion of the suffering of a child or children of which they know.
But it is a constant pressure.
That's why it does not diminish when we get further away from the scene of the crime.
Because wherever we go, we bring the crime with us which evokes a bad conscience in other people who themselves have been witnesses to such a crime and not lifted a finger.
That's why we face this constant headwind where people want us to carry the shame of what we did, which we do not deserve.
We were helpless children, but the society that let it happen and keeps letting it happen deserves heavy logs of shame poured onto their backs until they feel enough discomfort that a virtuous action and a virtuous path opens up.
So when we take on this shame, we are doing an act of disservice By preventing those who did wrong from experiencing their wrong, because we take on their burden, right?
Like a Christ taking on the sins of mankind.
When we take on the burdens of other people, we give them relief from the sting of their conscience that they need to feel.
The shame that we feel for the crimes we survived is selfish, and it is a further part of the enabling of the world That continues to encourage and allow children to be harmed.
The shame that we feel is selfish and is part of the cycle of violence.
The shame that we reject, the pride that we feel in what we survived, the just and righteous anger that we feel at those who let it happen, who either did it or enabled it or avoided it when they knew of it.
The shame that we reject stings the conscience of the world.
to better action.
The shame that we accept lets other people off the hook and has us flagellate ourselves when the world should be flagellating itself for letting it all happen.
If we really want to help the future, we must reject the shame of our pasts.
Thank you.
Anyway, this is the stuff that I'm working on in the new book.
I hope that you will find it to be useful.
It certainly has been very illuminating for me to work in it.
And I've just started. I started like two days ago.
I got like 4,000 words done.
So it's going to take a little while.
But of course, this is what your donation dollars are funding.
And I'm saying if you can find a better course in the world, go fund that one instead.
but I think this is the best thing that we can be doing with our time and money and energy.
Are you still on, my fair lady?
Okay.
Yes. Was that at all helpful or was that a complete ramble tangent?
This was incredibly helpful.
Good. Very.
Thank you. You are absolutely welcome and thank you for sharing and for shrugging off.
Yes. To some degree.
I know it's a work in progress for all of us, but for shrugging off the shame which has nothing to do with you.
And also what you said in the end.
You know, just one person standing up would have been enough.
One person. Yeah.
One person. Would have changed your whole relationship to the world, right?
Yes. All right.
Well, I'll then quit this particular section while I'm ahead.
We do have time for one more short question.
People may not want to follow this interaction.
That's totally fine as well, but I'll just give a couple of seconds.
In case anybody did want to ask or comment on anything else.
All right.
Well, thank you everybody so much.
And thank you again to the two wonderful women who spoke up.
Fantastic questions as well.
I just wanted to really just appreciate and throw it out there.
It can be a bit of a sausage fest here at FDR and in philosophy in general, but I must say that the contributions that the women have brought To this conversation, starting of course with Christina, who started us down the rabbit hole of the family to begin with.
Thanks, honey. It's been very exciting.
The contributions of the women in this conversation have been just unbelievably fantastic, and I hope that the women who are in this I appreciate just how amazing and wonderful their contributions are.
I would very much like to do another women's conference because I don't get to slip into anything really comfortable unless those conferences are actually going on.
But just let me know if you guys, if the ladies would be interested in that, because your contributions have just been absolutely fantastic, such as the course today.
So thank you again so much, and of course, to the men, because sausage fest can be fun too, especially when they're rolled up in those little piggy blankets.
Anyway, oh, what are we doing the barbecue?
All right, let's do it now.
At least as a tentative. We will whip it up.
Sorry, I was supposed to ask Christine about this beforehand, but she loves it when I put her on the spot.
Okay. What do we got here?
June? Yeah.
There is a weekend from the end of May to the beginning of June.
Sunday is the 31st, so we could do it either end of May, or the first weekend in June is the 6th and 7th of June.
Should we do that? Alright, the barbecue is the 6th and 7th of June, 2009.
Those who want to come early, who want to join the hunting party for squirrels, which will, of course, be the foundation for the barbecue, well, can come early, bring a very small long cloth and a very big spear.
That, I find, really works well.
But that works well.
Get your squirrel gun ready.
Absolutely. What I find I do is I go out and podcast in the woods until they just start dropping from the trees in boredom and oxygen deprivation.
So there's lots of different ways of hunting for squirrels, but that is one possibility.
Now, of course, there'll be a number of people who will have a big problem with the sixth and seventh.
We're open, right? We can do it any time.
And I guess Isabella will be six months almost, five and a half months at that point.
So she should be juggling by that point.
Not fire, because that's not until eight months.
Maybe seven or eight months, something like that.
But certainly she will be juggling squirrels, and that would be pretty cool.
She may be teething. Excellent!
so we can get peanut brittle very small portions she may be going through separation anxiety I will probably be able to help her with that because I go through that whenever Christina leaves the room.
So clutching your own privates apparently is the way to do it, so don't be offended if that's what happens for either of us.
Okay, well thank you everybody so much for a wonderful, wonderful call and I just wanted to just end on a tiny little note just to say that...
I don't think we're smarter than the people who came before us.
We just have this amazing technology which allows us to communicate in this kind of way, the board, the emails, the phone calls that are free.
And I just wanted to remind everyone that I know that I'm sort of front and center of the voice of FDR, but I just think it's so important to remember that the quality of the conversation is entirely based on the quality of the listeners.
I will absolutely say that, that I can't be any smarter We can't be any smarter than each other.
That's a very fundamental thing about what we're doing.
And so, you know, your participation in this conversation is essential to its success.
Your participation, the questions, the comments, the openness, the vulnerability, the honesty, the intelligence, the insightfulness, all of these, the honor and the dignity with which people approach these questions and the listener conversations, All of this further propels what it is that I'm doing.
I didn't have all these thoughts before FDR. These thoughts have been generated in the conversation with the listeners.
And I can't be any smarter than you guys.
You can't be any smarter than each other.
And the fact that we are the smartest conversation on the planet ever is the result of people's openness and honesty and communication within FDR. This is not a show with you as a listener.
Or if it is, step up and participate more.
Because the more the people participate, the smarter and wiser and more impactful the conversation is going to be, as we can see from today.
So just really, really remember that you are part of what we are doing here.
You are part of what we are doing here.
And there is no leader and followers.
There is no active and passive.
We are all involved in the quality and depth of this conversation.
And this is not something which is being done with you trying to catch up, with being done with you sitting there listening.
This is being done with you, and you are doing it as well.
So I just wanted to remind everyone of that.
And really encourage those who have not yet actively participated to step up and join in because we need you.
We need your intelligence. We need your wisdom.
We need your curiosity. We need your objections.
We need your anger. We need your hostility.
We need all of that to further refine and communicate with greater passion and truth what it is that will save the world, which is empathy, love, compassion, and truth.
So thank you everybody so much and have yourselves a wonderful week.
We will talk to you same bat time, same bat channel next week.
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