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Jan. 18, 2009 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:32:20
1257 Sunday Show Jan 18 2009

The bluebird of happiness, and getting yourself ready for true love...

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Time Text
Well, thank you everybody so much for joining us.
Sorry we're starting just a smidgen or too late.
It is a little after four.
Sunday, January the 18th, 2009.
And nothing particular to mention up front.
I did put out two videos rebutting all this media nonsense and have received some very positive and insightful and thoughtful comments about that.
So please, if you get a chance to blog or post those around...
I would appreciate it.
I had a number of interview requests, but the only two that were memorable was one from the Daily Mail, which I thought had, you know, stones the size of what rolls down at Indiana Jones at the beginning of the first movie.
I thought that was enormously...
That had some chutzpah, let's just say, to ask me to talk to them.
And the second was from Cosmopolitan.
They... I wanted to know whether UPB could give you fuller lips.
So we will find out about that.
Of course I said no to both.
So nothing particular cooking other than that.
Isabella is doing just beautifully and thank you to everyone again who sent in some very nice gifts and so on.
I'm not sure the wood-burning set was hugely appropriate, but we certainly do appreciate the soldering.
She's actually working on the suspension of the car at the moment.
And she's doing fantastically.
She's gained, I guess, about a pound and a half.
And she has cheeks which could store a squirrel full of nuts for the winter.
And she's not doing that as yet, but we hope, because Daddy likes to snack.
So that is all going just beautifully.
She had her second visit to the doctor and everything...
Third visit to the doctor, sorry.
Everything is doing just beautifully.
Please don't forget to mute if you are not talking.
And I guess last but not least, we hit...
Over half a million media views last month.
Oh yes, it was a happy Christmas for philosophy, I must say.
And that is a 37% increase over November, and more so in a way, because December is usually kind of a dip month, because, well, it's Christmas and so on, and of course... It should also be mentioned that it was a very high media view month, which was not driven by a lot of new podcasts because of the bundle of joy.
You know, I've got to just say, by the by, I think that statistically and officially, Christina and I are the first parents in history who cry more than our baby.
Don't you think that's true?
I think that statistically it is entirely true because we look at her and we weep with joy and she stares at us wondering why there is weather indoors, why there is snorting and dropping and rain drops.
So she's absolutely wonderful.
She's had one or two tough nights which is maybe half an hour of crying but she cries very little and it's a We're very lucky.
I mean, yeah, I think our parenting has something to do with it, but obviously we got a baby with a very good temperament and we're working with her to ensure that it stays that way.
So that's all wonderful.
So it's been a good month.
It's been an exciting month, but overall it is a huge net positive.
I have a correction to make.
One of the listeners who is far more knowledgeable than I am about biology, which is not that hard.
I've put out to the lovely subscribers, and thank you to those who signed up recently.
I do appreciate it.
To the subscribers, I sent out a two-part, and there will be a third part to this, but a two-part introduction to the MECO system, the theory and evolution, why we have it.
And I made a statement that was inaccurate in it.
Let's just say it's only one, because it's the only one that I know of.
Maybe there's more. Which is that I said that human beings are the only creatures that have the ability to switch back and forth between predator and prey status within a lifetime without having to wait for the turnover mutation of genetics.
A listener pointed out that there's certain kinds of gazelles that have taken to eating meat.
There are bats which alternate between prey and predator status.
And so I just wanted to correct.
It's not particularly substantial to the theory, but it is an important fact to correct.
So if and when those go out to the public, just remember that that part is full of some...
Well, not full of. There are some tangential inaccuracies which I think are important to note.
So thank you so much for that correction.
I really do appreciate it.
And anything else?
I think that's it for the introduction.
Everything's fine here, and I hope everything is fine with you.
So let's turn the show over to the lovely, delightful, and apparently tasty when marinated listeners.
So it's all yours, my pretties!
Hello, Steph. Hello.
Can you hear me? I sure can.
I was wondering if no one else has any questions if we could do a drain analysis?
That's certainly fine with me.
It certainly beats the crickets.
I just muted so I could grab a snack because I am catastrophically disorganized for feeding.
So please, a nice long tasty analysis is great.
If you could put it in the chat window or send me an email or something just so I could Just so I can follow along, and if you could send it to my Rogers account, that would be great.
Unless it's somewhere on the board or something, that would be great, too.
I sent it to your email a couple of days ago, actually, I think.
I'm just using a different computer.
If you could send it again, then I will grab it, if you don't mind, to forward it again, and I will make sure that I can refer to it when we're talking about it.
I'll post it in the chat. Thank you.
Excellent. Okay, would you like to read that?
Oh, you want me to read it out?
Okay, come on. In the dream, I am walking down a street at night.
I come across a pet store that's still open.
I go inside to look at the tropical fish, but down the back of the store there are also cages full of birds.
One bird is on the outside of the cage, which is a recurring theme in my dreams.
It hops into my hand.
It's a pale blue bodgerica with albino eyes.
Unusual colours is also a recurring theme.
I walk around with it for a while and it doesn't fly away.
I want to take it but I don't trust that it won't fly when I leave the store so I put it in a little cage.
Then I bolt out the door and run down the street.
Somehow the pet store owners don't notice that I'm running.
I remember waiting to cross the road.
Another recurring theme in my dreams, but I don't remember anything after that.
Okay, and what are the usual questions?
What happened the day before or the evening of this dream?
I don't think anything really happened.
I have had...
K issues kind of resurfaced lately.
So, I don't know if that has anything to do with that.
That's the only thing of significance, really, that's been happening for me.
Okay, let's start to this.
So, a pet store.
You know, one of the things that I recall, which was a challenge for you within the, I guess, FDR community, was...
Pet issues, particularly to do with your father.
Remember when Tom was talking about his issues?
This was a conflict, I guess, that you and I had or whatever that I thought was not positive when you were talking about pets to do with your father.
Does that ring a bell for you?
Yeah. And do you have any pets at the moment?
Yeah, I have a pet mouse.
Okay, so a pet store that's still open.
I go inside, you say, to look at the tropical fish.
And do you know why in the dream you were going to look at the fish?
I used to earn a lot of aquariums when I was still living at my parents' place.
Okay, and why were you going to look?
Is it because you wanted to buy them?
Is it because you just wanted to, were you sort of window shopping, so to speak?
Yeah, I think I was just window shopping.
Okay, down at the back of the store, there are also cages full of birds.
One bird is on the outside of the cage.
It hops. So, because I had a budgie when I was in my, I guess, late teens, early 20s.
And when they're out of the cage, they will cling to the bars on the outside.
Is that right? Is that sort of what it looked like?
Right, yeah. It hops, and you reach out your hand, and it hops onto your hand, right?
Yeah. It's a pale blue berger with albino eyes.
I walk around with it for a while and it doesn't fly away.
I want to take it, but I don't trust that it won't fly away when I leave the store, so I put it in a little cage.
Then I bolt out the door and run down the street.
Somehow the pet store owners take no notice that I'm running.
And do you know why you don't feel that you can buy the bird?
Because you kind of shoplift in this sense, right?
Right, yeah. I'm not sure.
I don't remember really thinking about buying it in the dream.
I just took it seemingly for no reason.
Okay, but at the same time, it's not shoplifting because, as you say, the pet store owners don't sort of say, hey, where are you going with our white-eyed blue bird, right?
Right, yeah. And what are your feelings when you look...
I'm sorry, go ahead. I was just going to say, you can get notice that I'm running from the store.
Right, no, that makes sense.
But I think it's also true that they're not taking very good care of the bird as it is, right?
I mean, people come in and out of pet stores all the time, so the door is open.
So if a bird is outside its cage...
It's almost like they don't want the bird, so to speak, because no pet store owner with a really valuable bird or even a partially valuable bird would leave it outside the cage with people coming and going during business hours, right?
Right, yeah. So it's almost like a rescue of something that is not wanted by someone else, if that makes sense?
Right. And what do you feel or think when you look at the bird, the budgerigar?
In the store, I mean, before you leave.
I just remember thinking about how unusual it was, like the colors of it.
Yeah, that can't be true.
It can't be true that that's all you think and feel because you take a risk.
You must feel something positive towards the bird other than what an interesting color, right?
Right. I can't really think of anything like that.
Does that mean you can't remember what you felt in the dream about the bird?
I think so, yeah.
Now you realize you asked me to do a dream and now you're not cooperating at all, right?
I don't mean this in terms of criticism, I'm just pointing it out, right?
Right. Right, because you're saying, well, I don't know what I feel, and I think, and you're kind of fogging out on me while talking about this dream, which is totally fine, right?
I just want you to notice that I'm noticing it, right?
Right. And you have fogged out in particular when I ask you what you feel about the bird.
I mean, I think it's obvious to everyone else what you feel about the bird, but it's something that either you're not connecting with or don't want to share.
Well, I think I'm not connecting with it because this is a very recurrent theme in my dreams.
These are unusual birds.
So I think that's why it's repeating over and over because I'm not connecting with it.
Okay, well let's look at it now.
Now, when you think about the, you know, if you sort of close your eyes and picture the bird in your mind, this pale blue budger guy with the albino eyes, hanging on the outside of a cage and not being cared for by the store, being protected or kept secure by the pet store owners, what do you feel about being protected or kept secure by the pet store owners, what do I feel like I have to protect it.
you And both why and from what?
I'm not sure from what, but...
It's very small.
It's unusually small.
So, it's probably very young.
Like a baby or something.
Yeah, it's outside of its cage.
No one else is taking care of it.
Right. Now, how long has it been...
How long has it been since you...
Since you dropped your unusual colours.
You mean the hair dye and stuff?
Yes. Um...
A couple months.
And do you remember when these dreams...
You said it's a recurring dream. Do you remember when these dreams began for you?
Um... Just before I came back to FDR, I think.
Like a week before I started coming back to FDR. Right, okay.
And it was within a month or so, if I remember rightly, after you came back to FDR, that you had this encounter with this sort of creepy guy.
Did he have a mohawk or something like that?
And I think I or someone pointed out that You were kind of wearing trauma on your outside person with lots of piercings and hair dye and so on.
Is that the right time frame or am I way off?
Yeah, I think so, yeah.
Okay. Alright, so we'll see if that shows...
I mean, I think that that has something to do with it, but nothing particularly clear at the moment.
So let's work with the...
I mean, I have a theory, but none of this, of course, may be true.
But when we look at the...
There's an interesting thing around the cage metaphor here.
Because if you're clinging to the outside of a cage in a pet store, you're not exactly free, right?
Right. I mean, clinging to the outside of the cage...
Is not the same as not being caged, right?
In fact, you actually have less mobility when you're clinging to the outside of a cage than when you're inside the cage, right?
Right, that's true.
Because you can't even sort of fly around a little bit or, you know, do whatever, right?
So if you're clinging to the outside of a cage, then you actually have less freedom than when you're inside the cage.
And I think psychologically, and again, this is all nonsense theory, right?
But we'll see if it fits. Psychologically...
We generally experience a diminishment of freedom when we start to get out of the cages of our history, right?
We go through a period of kind of paranoia and a feeling of constriction and a feeling of self-doubt.
You know, when we begin to step out of our old habits, we feel like we're stepping out onto a ledge.
So it's almost like when we go from the inside of a cage to the outside of a cage, We actually, we're more free, but we feel like we have less freedom when we first begin to challenge our dysfunctional habits.
Does that make any sense?
Yeah, it does.
Okay, and the bird likes you and you like the bird, right?
Yeah. So that, to me, would indicate that the bird is part of you, part of your personality?
Oh, I see. What part of my personality would it be?
I mean, I could just tell you what I think it is, and again, this is all just a nonsense theory, but I can tell you what I think it is.
Okay.
I think it is happiness.
I don't know why that I got a really weird feeling when you said that.
Yeah.
Well, that's either because it's pretty right or completely wrong.
So why don't we have a little feeling that you had and we'll see if it, you know, because it's nice to have those two options, right?
I'm right or I'm wrong. Or it's completely, well, it's not going to be completely tangential, but what was the feeling that you got when I said, what I said about the bird is happiness?
Um... Just kind of an upwelling of sadness and happiness at the same time.
Go on.
I don't know.
I started crying a little bit.
I'm not sure how to explain it, but it was intense.
Thank you.
Thank you.
you Do you want to try telling me where it occurred in your body?
Is it still there?
Did it come and go? If you can, just describe a little bit more.
In my stomach and chest, I think.
Like it was a rising feeling.
Yeah, like Greg is saying, we can't tell it's happiness and sadness.
Right, so it's not exactly an unpleasant feeling, if that makes sense.
Right, yeah. And I think I understand the feeling, and I think when we...
When we accept and embrace our inner life and the ambivalence and the richness of our emotional state, what I believe, that kind of mildly ambivalent but not unpleasant feeling, to me that's what I would call a rich emotion in that it has complexity, layers and depth. Right, that's what it felt like.
And a rich emotion is one of the rewards of Self-knowledge, right?
Because your primitive personalities don't feel rich emotions because they can't handle ambivalence.
It's got to be this. It's black or white.
It's got to be this or it's got to be this, right?
I love you or I hate you.
So when we begin to develop our own emotional sensitivity and self-regard and self-knowledge...
One of the rewards we get is the ability to handle complexity and depth, which gives us access to the extraordinary wealth of knowledge and wisdom that is available in the rich emotional tool set, if that makes any sense at all.
Right. And I think the last time that you and I talked, which was a Sunday show or two ago, actually, I think it was last, maybe.
I was saying that...
You can completely enjoy this stress-free time in your life, right?
Right. And I know that this dream occurred beforehand, before this conversation, I mean these recurring kind of dreams.
But I think what's interesting is that when you get to a safe and secure place, nobody is trying to take away your happiness, right?
You find yourself attracted to this bird that's obviously not being cared for by others.
And that's sort of a metaphor, which is that your happiness is your responsibility.
Again, this is all just mythology time, but we'll see if it fits.
That other people, they're not taking care of your happiness, right?
This pet owners, the pet store owners are not taking care of this bird.
Right.
But when you become free of destructive or abusive people, then, yeah, other people are not going to be particularly obsessed with your happiness or even particularly interested in it.
I mean, I don't mean ever, right?
Christina and I are interested in each other's happiness, but that came about because we weren't expecting the other person to fix our lives or whatever, right?
But the interesting thing is that people aren't that interested in you, but at the same time, they actually don't Right, it's true.
Right, it's the glorious indifference of self-actualization, right?
When we're around dysfunctional people, they get obsessed with us, they want to control us, they're all, you know, they're all up in our business, so to speak, right?
They've got their hands...
Deep in our pies, so to speak, and they are very, very obsessed and concerned with the things that we say and we do.
And you sort of think of those junior high school gossip girl scenarios.
It's like, oh, and then she said this, and then she said that, and then she's all like this, and then I'm all like that.
Everybody's obsessed with each other's business, right?
Right. But when we get those kind of compulsive and obsessive busybodies out of our lives, then we...
Actually can exist in a state of glorious indifference.
The glorious indifference of others, right?
And that's... That's interesting, actually.
Sorry, go ahead. Sorry. No, no, please.
It's your dream. You should talk away.
I was just thinking about, like...
Like, at my art classes and stuff...
It's full of really dysfunctional people, and I get along with these people, but they don't seem to want to get to know me at a deeper level.
Like, they're nice to me and stuff, but I don't get invited or anything.
I don't particularly care, but I just thought it was really interesting.
I was wondering if that's what you mean by indifference.
I think so, and I mean...
Indifference sounds like a weird state to recommend, but it is actually a pretty good place to start, right?
Because if we desperately need other people for validation, for happiness, for justification as prey or as predators or to recreate some past drama or an assignment the box away or whatever, if we desperately need other people, obviously that's not going to make us happy and it's not going to make them happy, right? Right.
And so I think that the glorious indifference is a great place to start, right?
Right. Because it's open, right?
It's like, hey, I'm not hostile.
I'm not needy.
I am, you know, positive and friendly, as I think is always a good place to start in life.
But I don't need you.
And of course, if you don't approach other people with neediness...
Then needy people won't want to have anything to do with you because they know fundamentally that they don't have anything to offer you, right?
Right, yeah. So once dysfunctional people become uninterested in us, that's a good thing, I think.
That's a big step forward.
Right, yeah. And that's kind of the indifference of the pet store owners, so to speak.
Again, this is all a total metaphor, but I think it makes some sense, right?
Yeah, it does make sense.
The fact that the budgie, the budgerigar looks very different from all other budgerigars, to me this would be a symbol of individuation, right?
Because if you were, I don't know, if there was a big vat of grey rabbits and they were all the same and you just grabbed one randomly, that would be certainly capable, I mean your unconscious would certainly be capable of creating and inflicting that image on you and what it would say is you're not differentiated as a personality yet.
But the fact that you have the one bird that's outside the cage that has very different plumage means that the That is a symbol of individuation, that you're not the same as everyone else, which is, I think, a good thing, right? And when you become individuated, the pet store owners don't care about caging you anymore.
In fact, they don't even care if you're there or not, because they have no use for you once you become who you are.
In other words, those who create beings Yeah.
pet anymore, right?
Because you're individuated, and therefore you don't fit into the hierarchy of dysfunctional needs, right?
Of others.
I'm just thinking, why would I put it in an even smaller cage then?
I'm sorry, say again? I'm just thinking, why would I put the bird in an even smaller cage to take it away?
Sorry, I just said why you don't or do put the bird in a smaller cage?
Why do I put the bird in a smaller cage to take it away?
Well, because you're running, right?
I mean, you want the bird in a small cage when you're running, I think, don't you?
Because if it's in a big cage and it loses its grip on its perch, it's going to bounce around and get hurt, right?
Right. I mean, you were in the dream.
This is just the way I'm picturing it, right?
Right. And you're running...
And the running, of course, is because you fear punishment and so on, right?
Yeah. But there is no punishment in this dream, right?
Right. And that's interesting, right?
That when you become individuated, and you certainly, I mean to my nonsense long distance opinion, you're definitely working very hard on that and have made amazing progress over the last six months or more.
I mean, the great thing about being individuated is that you kind of rise above the petty punishments of the social hierarchy.
Because you have standards and principles that don't rely on the approval or disapproval of others, right?
Right, yeah. I mean, so to take a, I guess, maybe not so minor example, right?
This media stuff that has been going on and will continue to go on about FDR and all the cult stuff and all that.
I mean, the reason why it doesn't work fundamentally and why the show is going strong and why I'm completely firm in everything that I did and would do it all over again but stronger if I had the opportunity is that For the people who use the media to attack FDR or to attack me,
all they're doing is they're saying that the negative opinions of other people are the worst thing in the world, right?
Right. And therefore, what I am doing to you is the worst punishment that could ever happen to me.
If I'm telling millions of people, and I think the Daily Mail circulation is like 3 million people, right?
If I were to tell millions of people, sorry, if someone were to tell millions of people that I was a bad and destructive person, that is the worst punishment that I could ever imagine, right?
Because I'm very susceptible to social criticism.
So it's room 101 in 1984.
It's the worst thing in the world.
The punishment that people inflict on you is all merely a confession that that is the worst punishment that they could imagine, right?
Right. But it's not the worst punishment that I could imagine at all.
The worst punishment that I could imagine would have been to not Help Tom as clearly and as fiercely as I did to have betrayed my standards, my virtues, the ethics that I talk about in these latest videos.
That to me would be the worst punishment, would be to look in the mirror and realize that I'd backed down out of dishonorable cowardice from helping a young man who had had so little help from his community that he needed to reach out over the internet thousands of miles away to find a shred of ethical compassion, right? And outrage.
So the interesting thing is that, I mean, this is why the false self never achieves what it wants to, right?
So calling me all these terrible names is not the worst punishment for me at all.
I'm not saying I like it, but I'm certainly not saying that it's the worst punishment in the world at all.
I mean, all they're doing is saying that that's the worst punishment in the world for me, right?
Tom's mom obviously is very sensitive to people thinking badly of her, and the reason for that is she obviously has a terrible conscience.
And rightly so. And so she imagines that then if she gets people to speak badly of me, that's the worst punishment in the world for me.
me because it is the worst punishment in the world for her, right?
But that's nonsense.
It's got nothing to do fundamentally with the worst punishment in the world for me.
Anyway, so the reason that I'm sort of mentioning that is that for codependent people, for what Rand calls the social metaphysicians, right?
Those who define themselves through their relations to others.
Indifference is the worst thing in the world, right?
Because they don't feel that they exist to themselves and for themselves and by themselves.
Thank you.
Because they don't feel that they exist.
If they don't make an impression on other people, then they feel like they are being erased.
It's like a kind of death, if that makes any sense.
Right, that's exactly what I used to be like.
Right, and this was your plumage, right?
Your plumage, your piercings, the way that you presented yourself in the world was...
For impact, right? Because if people were indifferent to you or uninterested in you, it felt like a kind of death, right?
Yeah.
But if the dream says what I think it might be saying, and this is just one of many possibilities, but I think it's the strongest one in my opinion, the dream is saying if you have the inner plumage of happiness, you don't need the outer plumage of shock value.
Right.
Because when you are at peace with yourself and happy with yourself and enjoying your life, the indifference of dysfunctional people is no problem.
It's no punishment. In fact, having those people interested in you would be not good, right?
Right. And so you're running from the store because you fear that they're going to be very interested in you and want to punish you and so on, right?
And they don't care. And you're actually relieved about that, right?
Right. Whereas if you were a completely messed up person, I'm not even saying you're a partially messed up person, but if you were a completely messed up person, you would be disappointed that no one chased you.
Whereas in this dream, if I understand it rightly, you're relieved, right?
Right. So I think that's good.
And the last thing I'll say, just before I turn it back over to you, because you said also, why do I put the bird in the cage, right?
Because when you look in the pet store and the bird is outside the cage, you consider that to be a sign of carelessness, of indifference towards the bird on the part of the pet shop owners, right?
Right. I keep wanting to say pet shop boys and burst into song, but I won't, because it's not that kind of show.
So you putting the bird in the cage is actually acting to protect the bird.
And to keep the bird safe, right?
That makes sense.
That's all I had to say as a sort of first pass of a way of looking at the dream.
So, tell me what you're thinking and feeling and what this sort of means or anything like that.
Well, it really helps me understand...
The other dreams that I had about birds, I had this dream that I found some dying baby birds and I saved them and I fed them and they became really beautiful.
And I remember really clearly one of the birds after I saved it.
I looked in its eyes and its eyes are like the most beautiful expression of joy I've ever seen.
It's like she really couldn't make it.
Sorry to be annoying. You just kind of gobbled out there.
there, or if you could just repeat that last sentence.
Um, in one of the dreams I had, I just heard that I saved had, um, like the most important option I had ever seen.
It's fine, it's all I saved.
So, yeah.
Right, right.
No, I mean, that certainly does, I think, fit into the metaphor.
I mean, birds have lots of meanings in dreams, in my amateur opinion, but I think that in this case, The bluebird.
There's such a strong connotation of affection, of protection, of mutuality, right?
You like the bird and the bird likes you.
I mean, you're grabbing the bird as it's pecking at your hand and tracking it off to a cookout or something, right?
I mean, you like the bird.
The bird obviously feels comfortable and likes you.
And that to me would be a sort of true self reciprocity.
And that to me is a wonderful thing.
I think there is in fact a song called The Bluebird of Happiness.
I don't know if this means anything.
I mean, birds could show up like you could be dying of thirst in the desert with buzzards or vultures circling overhead and that would be a bird dream but would be quite different from what you're experiencing.
I mean, it seems to me like you are using an act of daring to...
To woo, and you don't just grab the bird, right?
You establish a relationship with the bird.
There's a patience in this.
You're not just like, ooh, pretty bird, you know, grab and run, right?
You walk around the store with the bird on your finger.
The bird comes to you voluntarily.
So there's a beautiful kind of joyful reciprocity and connection and affection and trust and all of that.
And that seems to me, I mean, there's something, to me, very moving and beautiful.
In this dream.
And the fact that you are taking a risk to keep something that you feel affection or love for, that is happy to be with you, this budgie, to me that's just beautiful.
It's very moving.
It's lovely. Yeah, I'm feeling pretty intensely happy right now.
That is great. And I think you should be.
And one of the things that I've really noticed, and this is sort of informing the dream approach that I took, is that you have developed a great capacity for affection and a greater appreciation of beauty over the last four to six months than I've seen from knowing you before.
And to me, I mean, it's a beautiful thing to see, the degree to which you express that and share that.
And I just wanted to say how much I appreciate that, and I'm certainly glad that you're feeling so much happier, and I think that you should really treasure this dream and see if you can visit your inner budgie every night.
I mean, how lovely. Alright, thanks, Steph.
You're welcome. Is there anything else that you wanted to add to that?
No, I think that's all.
Alright. I just wanted to...
Somebody posted about the bluebird of happiness.
Not the lyrics, for some reason.
Because I could have definitely made up a rap to that, but no.
It says, the mythology of the bluebird of happiness has deep roots that go back thousands of years.
Indigenous cultures, classic grove, hold similar myths and beliefs about the bluebird.
It is the most universally accepted symbol of cheerfulness, happiness, prosperity, hearth, and home, good health, new births, the renewal of springtime, etc.
Virtually any positive sentiments may be attached to the bluebird.
In magical symbology, bluebirds are used to represent confidence in the positive aspect and egotism in the negative.
A dead bluebird is a symbol of disillusionment, of the loss of innocence, and of transformation from the younger and naive to the older and wiser.
And this is all contested and blah blah blah blah blah, but...
It is a blue budgie with albino eyes, and that just sounds very, very striking.
So, anyway, I'm very glad that you shared it.
I think it's a beautiful, beautiful dream and something to be really treasured.
And this is why, you know, when you can have dreams like this, drugs to me make no sense.
We have this every night, this amazing ability to Discover ourselves to have perfectly vivid, useful, beautiful, and informative, and sometimes terrifying hallucinations that are full-body contact hallucinations every night.
I just can't imagine why you'd want to do drugs as well.
So anyway, that's just my little thing to get all the drug users riled up.
So I just wanted to mention that.
And thank you so much for sharing. That was a beautiful, beautiful dream.
Thank you, sir. Thank you.
And do let us know if you have...
Another... If the bird shows up, I hope that you will, even if you post it in a premium section, if you would post it, I certainly would be interested to hear more.
Okay, thank you. All right.
Okay, we have time for 1.3742 more questions.
So, if you have 0.3742...
Oh, sorry, 0.3741 now.
Oh, wait, 0.3741.
No, I'll stop. Next question, if you would like to...
Jump in. Yes, yes.
It's Nate. I have a question of examining our blindness or often, you know, issues with corruption.
Sounds productive and useful.
I was hoping that somebody was going to bring up an epistemological question so I could turn it into a criticism of their parents, but clearly that's not going to happen this week, so we'll have to be patient.
You have a good history with examining your own relationship in your past with corruption, and I've just only more recently begun to discover other areas in my life where I was not exactly living my values.
And This is with my relationship to men.
I talked with some people on the board and with my therapist to a more extensive extent.
I'm sorry, just to interrupt you, just to put Nate's relationship with men into context for those who are newer to the conversation.
I'd just like you to close your eyes and imagine that you're going into a very dank bathhouse that smells vaguely of elderberries, and you are wearing a very threadbare loincloth that actually has bluebirds stitched on it in ways that we don't care to examine at this particular time, and that you have a very small beak.
Just kidding. Okay, sorry.
That makes no sense whatsoever, but please continue.
Well, recently I had broken off a relationship or a forming relationship with somebody that was a waiter slash bartender at a restaurant that I would frequent quite often.
And he was not the most...
I'm a moral person. It started where I would go there regularly because I like Mexican food.
I'm so sorry. I'm completely rude and I do apologize.
I just got distracted by something in the chat room.
This is the first time that Isabella has looked at me with true shock based on my earlier statements about the bathhouse.
Could you just remind me who this fellow is and then please continue the story and I do apologize.
Um... Okay, well, I go to this restaurant, or I used to, this Tex-Mex restaurant.
I've recently found a better one.
But I would go there quite often.
And then after a while, I sort of noticed that it was getting cheaper to go there.
And I assumed, well, there must be somebody that sees me as a regular.
And these were my first thoughts.
When this was beginning, and it turned out to be this bartender.
He was gay, and I assumed at first that he might be attracted to me, and then I started talking to him, and then I found out, no, he's not.
He saw me as a regular, and I don't know what his original motive was.
My guess was that...
He began not charging me for certain things.
And my original guess after my first evaluation of this after several months was that he was kind of buying my friendship in a way.
But I would go there quite often and it became more about going there to hang out with him and talk to him.
The conversations were always brief because he was a busy guy that was working there.
I started to realize that this was several months later, that there was something wrong with the whole relationship and I couldn't quite catch on to what it was that bothered me about it so much.
My first theory was that he had kind of bought my friendship because I wondered whether I would be going there to talk to this guy if he was not giving me discounts.
And then after talking to someone in the chatroom, I recognized that he pointed out that this guy is not the owner of the restaurant and his giving me discounts isn't exactly his Um, decision to make. And so I started to question him about it.
I took him out one night to a place and questioned him about it and found out a lot more about him that, you know, he's been in the army and, um, he's got a friend that's,
uh, got a very morally questionable past and, um, And he's kind of, he's similar to my old friend Mark, in a way that he's kind of condescending, maybe not so much condescending, but shockingly sort of insulting every now and then.
And I would sort of be afraid to tell him that I was hurt every once in a while.
So when I started examining this, I had taken him out and realized that, you know, I told him to stop not charging me.
And then I sort of realized that this guy has a lot more in common with my old friends than I previously thought.
So in a way, I've kind of been participating in this or enabling his Giving me discounts and stuff like that when that wasn't his decision to make.
And upon further examination, I realized, well, all my past friends have been like this.
Corrupt to one degree or another, or condescending, or just kind of jerks.
And then, of course, it hit me that much like my relationships to women They're all similar to my mother.
These guys are very similar to my father.
And that's kind of what was blinding me to it because my father would involve me in some corrupt aptitudes like pyramids games and all kinds of copying VCR tapes, getting mad at me for not fixing his VCR copying technology when I was young.
And I just wondered if there's any way that you could perhaps help me avoid this in the future.
Or pick out maybe what it was that I missed in the first, besides the discounts, what I missed in the first few minutes so that my future friends are better chosen.
Sure, and this will be a one-time offer for three easy payments you get.
This is both spelled with a K, so write this down.
The Cult Crystals, which will ward off corrupt people and actually are a fantastic exfoliant for your back here, for some of our Mediterranean listeners.
Sorry, what was the question? Yours for the low-low price of...
Operators are standing by.
Okay, well, I think that you...
You had some wonderful insights there and neatly skirted around the big point, in my humble opinion.
Okay. You said that this fellow reminded you of Mark and of your other friends and of some of your relationships with women, and you said that he also reminded you of your father?
Yes. Right.
None of those would lend you to be susceptible to him at all.
None of those historical relationships, in my opinion.
Okay. So even if there's a pattern stretching as far back as my teens?
Absolutely. Absolutely, because look, I mean, not to pump myself up, right, just because I happen to have passed this particular gateway, but I had that pattern as well, but I'm not susceptible to these people, right?
So there's got to be something different, right?
Okay. Does that make sense?
Not yet. Well, no, but does it make sense that if it were cause and effect, like the history means that I'm now susceptible to these people, then I would still be susceptible to these people, right?
I mean, you and I are not that far apart in age, right?
Right, but if I were blind to the corruption of, say, my father and the conscription that being conscripted into his dirty deeds and Alternative medicine scams and stuff like that, then would I not be also blind to that myself and my susceptibility to that with other people?
No, because what you're doing is you're looking at this as something which has been inflicted upon you.
By your history and therefore which renders you to be blind to it yourself.
And that's not... Corruption does not maintain itself in our lives because other people are corrupt towards us.
Okay. Right?
I mean, if you remember what I've talked about in terms of my own having to look into the distorted not-so-fun house mirror of my own corruption was when...
And of course this is in the novel The God of Atheists, right?
But it's when... The kind of character by proxy realizes that he himself is contributing to the corruption, right?
It's not being done unto him.
He's not being lied to that he profited from a situation or an environment that he already knew was corrupt.
And therefore, it was not being done unto him.
And that's when he looked at his own dark side and was able to begin to free himself from that.
Right, right. Okay, that makes sense.
Right, so the reason that you're susceptible to this fellow, again, humble nonsense opinion, right?
But the reason that I would suggest that you're susceptible to this fellow is not because your friends in the past were corrupt, and not anymore because your father's corrupt.
Why? Because you're not 20, right?
I mean, you're in your mid to late 30s, right?
So, mid-30s, is that right?
Early 30s still.
Early 30s. I refuse to call it my mid-30s until I'm actually in the middle.
How old are you now? I'm 34.
Right. So, mid-30s.
And I think here we have part of the problem.
Rejection of reality.
But, yeah, it's the same way that I'm in my extremely late 20s.
So, the reason, though, is that you must still be doing this, right?
You must still be feeling that it's you plus something that equals value.
Because this guy plus comps equaled value for you, right?
Right. Now why would this guy plus comps equal value for you unless you felt that you plus something must be required to equal value to others?
I wouldn't doubt that is the case.
Oh, a fantastic legal hedge response.
I wouldn't doubt in some alternate universe, if negative equals minus one, that it could be possible that I might not, frankly, not doing this by the opposite.
What? Yeah, I'm sure that's the case, although I'm not sure where yet.
I'm Right.
We are susceptible in others to the corruptions that we bring, or the insecurities, we could say, that we bring, right?
Yes. That's an awful quick agreement, but we'll take it at its face.
Well, no, no, I understand, because, you know, in the past, when I was desperate for a relationship, I would sort of discard all the Obvious facts about the other person Due to my insecurity and desperation Right, so in other words the corruption you you were creating the corruption it wasn't being inflicted upon you, right?
I mean the corruption that's inflicted upon us is is taxation, right not relationships Right Right, so when this guy so you had a feeling when you met this guy, right?
Yes. And your feeling, in hindsight, I'm sure, was quite accurate.
And he probably got that you had this feeling and he probably was attracted to you in some way or another.
And even if he's gay, the attraction doesn't necessarily have anything, doesn't have to have anything to do with sexual desire.
And let's just put it in completely nonsensical black and white terms.
A bad person can...
Really want the approval of a good person, right?
So if you have a negative opinion of a bad person, he may, you know, gay or straight or whatever, he may really want to win you over because what you do by having a bad opinion of him is you trigger his own conscience and therefore he needs to turn you around to assuage his own conscience, if that makes any sense. That makes complete sense.
Right, and that's because he can't handle someone not liking him, right?
Because of his own bad opinion of himself, someone doesn't like him, it awakens that self-attack, and therefore he has to manage the externalities by winning over the person who's attacking him, blah blah blah blah, right?
Right, and I'm sure this was his reaction when I ended the relationship, when I sort of told him that, look, we have opposing values, I don't think it's a good idea.
Okay, now tell me what you mean, and I may have missed something here in what you were saying, but tell me what it means.
Like, didn't you just have a few chats with a waiter who gave you free stuff?
Yes. So help me understand what the word relationship means here, because maybe it does, I'm just not sure I see where it fits.
Well, it was developing, I think, into something more than just a relationship with a waiter.
I mean, a business relationship.
And so how was it a business relationship?
And I'm sorry if I missed this. Well, I mean, I would go and eat and pay for my food.
And I was there for food and to socialize, I guess, to some limited degree.
Okay, so you were a customer.
To me, a business relationship is, you know, we're going to be partners in some venture or whatever, right?
But so you were a customer, and you enjoyed this guy's attention, is that right?
Yeah. And what did you enjoy about this fellow's attention?
I think, in hindsight, that it was any attention that I valued.
Go on. That I was bored and sort of still feeling a bit lonely, and I wanted to socialize in some way, so I had this guy's attention, so because he gave me attention, that was...
The extent of my standards there, I guess.
Okay. So, go on.
So, the relationship was developing from that, because we went and hung out twice.
Once, during Halloween, we went to the gay bar scene where all the costumes...
Stuff was going on, the elaborate costumes and things like that that happened on Halloween.
And then another time we met at a pub, this is when I talked to him about the under-the-table thing that was going on at the restaurant.
You mean that he shouldn't be giving you comms because it's not his restaurant?
Right. Right, I remember once, when I was much younger, going to a transvestite bar for Halloween.
I thought they'd all just be dressed normal, but it wasn't really the point.
Yeah, you should see the kinds of costumes they...
I mean, this is just like...
This is like almost going to the circus, kind of, because the...
A very grabby circus, I might add, but anyway, okay.
Okay, so this fellow was a way for you to break a kind of isolation, is that right?
And to feel like you're socializing and so on?
Yes. Alright.
And how long was this going on?
From February to the beginning of December.
From February of last year to the beginning of December.
Yes, and I wouldn't say that...
I started going to the restaurant in February, and I didn't really start noticing until March.
And why did you think that he was...
I mean, you said that you thought maybe he was interested in you for sexual reasons, but once he knew that you weren't gay, what did you think he was – what was your theory as to why he wanted to befriend you?
I – let's see, I don't think I had a theory then.
Yeah, you did, for sure, because we process everything right all the time.
So maybe you didn't know it.
But if someone had stopped and asked you in February or March or April or whatever, why does the guy want to be your friend?
I might have said because he likes me or because he thinks I'm old.
You mean not in a sexual way, but in a friend way?
Yeah, like, I'm interesting, or that I'm interesting to talk to, I guess?
Maybe? That sounds staggeringly not convincing, what you're saying.
I'm not quite sure about it, because I... Like, now I would say that, like you were saying, he was interested in covering up his...
feeling better about himself.
But back then, I would have either thought that he was not telling me that he was attracted to me, or that if he wasn't attracted to me, then he found me interesting.
Okay, so he found you interesting as a human being, and what about you did he find interesting as a human being in a non-sexual way?
I think that I would talk about philosophy.
I think we had conversations about psychology and however brief they were between serving people.
Sorry, you would have conversations about philosophy and psychology while he was working as a waiter?
Yeah. Does that sound believable to you if you play this back and listen to the podcast?
Does that sound very believable to you?
I'm just curious. Maybe it does.
It doesn't seem to me particularly like a good environment for that kind of stuff, but I could be completely wrong.
There were moments where 20-30 minutes would pass where he wasn't serving anyone, where nobody was there, or it was a slow night.
He would just sort of stand there in front of me where I would sit at the bar and eat, and we'd talk back and forth.
There were times where he would tell me a dream he had, and I just thought I'd try to tell him what I thought it meant, and things like that.
And I did share your book with him, Everyday Anarchy, and he read it.
And then he gave me a book.
The comic book. Your shoes are untied.
Sorry. Okay, and did he appear to be psychologically knowledgeable or sophisticated or anything like that?
No. Okay, so what value did he bring to you that made the relationship something that was worth, I mean, other than the comps, right?
Obviously, that's You know, just uber slutty and all, right?
So we don't have to worry about that, right?
I mean, we're aware of that.
But what did he bring to you that made up for his lack of knowledge or sophistication in these matters?
Just the interaction with another human being, I think.
So basically he brought a pulse and a carbon-based life form with a frontal lobe to the table, right?
Exactly. Now, if...
This had been a single woman who you were not at all sexually attracted to, but who was single and looking.
How would you have thought – what would you have thought about your role in this relationship?
I might – Like, if the guy were a girl?
Yeah. Sorry, did you just drop an ear?
Do you want me to say it again? Yes, if he were a girl, then...
A single girl who was looking, who you thought might be attracted to you, who bought you drinks and who didn't really know much about the stuff that you were interested in and so on.
I mean, how would you feel about continuing this For almost a year and going on a quote date and so on with no no intention ever of becoming romantically involved with it I don't think that I would have I think I would have paid a lot more attention to this and talked about it a lot more in therapy than it would be with a guy.
Because I've been more focused on the opposite sex than I have with the same sex relationships.
Right, but I mean, you know that when it comes to a gay man, it's the same as a straight woman, right?
When it comes to attraction to a guy, right?
Yes. Yes, you're right.
Okay. So, I mean, the metaphor, while not perfect, is certainly, or the analogy, while not perfect, is certainly close enough to be of value, right?
So, perhaps I'm, like, I was leading him on?
You think? Or...
Let's go to a gay bar.
I will take free drinks.
I will instruct you on philosophy and psychology.
Let's go out again. I mean, if this was a woman who was attracted to you, there would be almost no question, right?
That you would be leading this woman on because you felt lonely, though you had no intention of dating her, right?
Right. That would have been obvious.
Yeah, I'm not sure why it's not obvious in this situation, but that would be my thought.
Well, he would constantly protest any time I would bring up the subject.
He would protest that his attraction to me.
I mean, he would protest that he was attracted to me.
That he was what? Oh, did we lose him?
Oh, Nate. Hello?
Nate. Are you there?
Yeah, I'm back. Sorry, you're back, rather.
Sorry. I lost power.
Oh, okay. So he would protest that he was not physically attracted to you?
Yes. Right.
I mean, on three or four occasions.
Here's the thing, though.
Why would you even ask him?
Because I suspected that that was the reason why he was even remotely interested in me.
Okay. So, this is what you...
Then you say, well, I can't imagine how this could be analogous to a straight female, right?
Right, because if he's not interested in me...
Yes, but if he's not interested in you, Nate, and you ask him, why are you asking him again?
Right? If some guy comes up to me with a strong South African accent, right?
And I say, are you from South Africa?
And he says, no. Right?
Right.
And then he doesn't speak with a South African accent for a little while.
And then he slips into a South African accent again.
I will say, are you sure you're not from South Africa?
Because I've lived there and you sure sound like you're from South Africa.
He's like, no, I'm Scottish or something, you know, whatever.
Right.
Right.
So so this is clear that you knew.
Right.
Because you asked him again and you asked him again and you asked him again and you asked him again.
Right.
That would make sense.
That would make sense.
Come on, Nate. You're not new to the rodeo yet, right?
You're not a first-time caller because the bell didn't go off when we didn't release a blue budgie, right?
So why did this continue when you have access to the resources here, including me, for 10 months or 11 months?
Right.
Because you haven't had any questions in the call-in show for, what, eight months?
Ten months? Yeah.
And I'm not saying nobody has to run anything by me, but in this situation, right, you were specifically avoiding feedback that was very easily available, right?
And you've got very positive feedback for the conversations that you've had with me.
People have found them enormously helpful, and so have you, right?
And it's not like I charge, right?
So there's no money issues there, right?
Right. And as you say, you didn't bring it up in therapy, you didn't bring it up in group, you didn't bring it up at FDR, you didn't bring it up with me, you didn't bring it up with any of the friends you have here or elsewhere.
So, of course you knew what was going on, right?
And you wanted it to continue because it was doing something positive for your vanity and your ego, right?
And then what you do is you call me up and you say, you know, people are just exploiting me.
I have this history of being exploited, you see?
And I'm, you know, I got into this because I'm so used to being exploited.
No, no, I wouldn't say that that was my, what I was trying to tell you.
That's not what you were trying to tell me.
That's explicitly what you were telling me.
Because I, you know, you said, well, he reminds me of Mark, and he reminds me of my other friends, and he reminds me of my dad, and these people were all corrupt, right?
And exploited me. Right.
Right, but you see that you're the exploiter here, right?
Oh, I see. And as an exploiter who doesn't see his own actions, and I mean this with all sympathy and respect, right?
I mean, I hope you understand that.
I have great affection for you, right?
And I mean this with all sympathy and respect.
But the exploiter who cannot see his own exploitation will see it in everyone else but him, right?
Right. And will genuinely feel like a victim of exploitation, right?
Right. Right.
There was a lot of ambivalence the whole time, because I thought, you know, am I trying to be friends with this guy?
What's going on here?
And certainty was a half-hour phone call away for ten months, right?
Yeah. And you didn't want that certainty, right?
No, I don't think I did.
Well, we know that you didn't because you didn't clarify it, right?
Right. With a therapist in group, with friends, with me, with anyone, right?
And again, this is with all sympathy, right?
I mean, really do sympathize, right?
But this is just the reality, right?
Yeah. You also know that you have a capacity, as we all do, right?
Right.
You have a dark side because we've had a great podcast about that.
I think about a year and a quarter ago.
You have a capacity for dark side.
You also have a capacity for romantic addiction.
You also have a great need to feel sexually attractive.
You also have the capacity to exploit others for for these reasons.
Right.
Right.
So then you get involved with a gay man who's comping you.
And you don't think that this is important to race?
I'm sorry to laugh, because it's so obvious from the outside, right?
But you don't feel that this is an important issue to race with anyone, despite the fact that you know that these are strong tendencies of problematic behaviors within you?
I think that that's interesting, because he's a I just shifted from women to men.
Sure, absolutely, and you would be surprised at how common that is.
Which, I wasn't focused on my relationships to men at the time, other than my past with Mark, and I talked about that to some extensive degree in therapy, but didn't talk about this guy, who I mean, seriously, if you'd posted on the board, right, and you'd said, a gay guy I keep thinking is attracted to me is comping me drinks, should I go out with him?
What would people have said?
What would you have said if you'd seen that posted?
Said that way.
Yeah, I don't well, I'm sorry.
Is that the wrong way to say it?
Is there another way that's not as sort of bold, so to speak?
Well, that's bold and accurate truth right there.
I'm not sure I would have come out with it any different than I am now.
Right. And the reason I'm saying all of this is I certainly don't want you to feel bad, right?
I mean, you did what you did, but I've certainly noticed.
I mean... It's, I don't want to sound like the big bald brother in the sky or whatever, right?
But I know where people are, right?
Particularly people who've been around for a long time.
I can't ever find my glasses or my keys, but I know where everyone is who's been around for a while.
And I know that you were not in the conversation for quite some time.
You have not been doing...
I mean, I know you've been doing work in therapy, and I certainly don't want to dismiss any of that.
But I knew for sure that you weren't engaged in continuous improvement as far as that went.
You weren't posting stuff on the board that was...
You weren't having insights. You weren't having breakthroughs.
You weren't posting on the board about stuff that went through.
You were getting all abstract and writing on your blog, and that's all completely fine.
But it was very clear to me that...
You had stalled as far as progress went, and it had been for about the last year, and I guess this would be part of it, right?
Because you've spent a year not dealing, and again, I'm putting this in ridiculously extreme ways, and just tell me where I'm full of it, right?
But if at this point you're still not willing to bring up These issues with people, and by people I mean your therapist or friends or me or whatever, right?
But you're still not confronting your own corruption in this area, your own capacity for exploitation, which we all have and we all share.
I'm not trying to pick you out of a crowd.
And you are still managing your anxiety and loneliness through flirtatious behavior, which has been a big problem for you in the past, right?
Right. And this is not something that...
I mean, you were avoiding. You've been avoiding it for months and not tackling it, as far as I can see, right?
As far as sort of what you're reporting to me.
And I mean this with no criticism and no negativity.
It's just... I sort of see it.
As far as I know, I would just...
I was working on a lot.
I mean, I covered a lot of ground, I thought.
As far as everything else, besides this relationship that...
No, but the issue is that it's not this relationship, right?
It's my capacity for this.
Well, again, it's not to pick you out.
It's everyone's capacity for this, right?
But, you know, given what you went through with the women over the past couple of years and given the conversations that you and I have had and the work that you've done in therapy...
You know that you have a loneliness.
You know that you feel that sexual attraction is a way to solve the problem of loneliness when, of course, it doesn't.
It actually just makes it worse. And you didn't bring any of this stuff up.
Now, maybe you're working on a whole bunch of other things, but this is a core issue for you, right?
Yes. I mean, this certainly was the most significant issue that you and I have wrestled with as far as your life goes, right?
Right, and as far as I know, I've been wrestling with that for a long time.
Even over the past nine months, I just didn't quite see going once a week to this restaurant as part of the problem.
And now do you think that it is...
And again, look, I'm not saying like, oh my god, you decided to turn gay and fly to BC and get married to this guy.
I mean, I'm not trying to over-inflate what it is that has been going on, right?
But what I sort of want to be annoying and remind you about, you know, for what it's worth, is that you let go of the principle and you are managing your anxiety in the moment, right?
Because the principle is that we're all capable of corruption and exploitation, right?
And that this was a clearly not positive situation for you or for this other fellow, right?
And and you didn't talk about it with your therapist and you didn't talk about it with anyone else, which meant that you were avoiding something that was on your mind.
And what's worse, and I say worse, not in terms of criticism, but just in terms of the effects.
What's worse is that you seem to be completely unaware that you were avoiding an essential topic that was related to one of the most core issues that you've had in terms of problems in your life.
Right.
Because you said to me, oh, I would think this about it and I would think that about it and I would think the other about it.
And then I think, well, but he I asked him and he's not interested.
So this was going on in your mind, and you were not talking about it with the people in your life, right?
No, I wasn't.
And the reason, again, you don't have to talk about it with me.
You don't have to talk about it with your therapist or something, right?
But what I'm trying to point out to you, Nate, is that it's so, so important to know when you're avoiding a topic.
This is an elemental, elemental, elemental aspect to self-knowledge.
To be conscious of an unconscious avoidance is 95% of the battle When it comes to self-knowledge and fundamentally virtue, right?
Right. I wasn't even aware that I was avoiding anything significant enough to worry.
I thought there were other things to pay attention to.
It's something that came across my mind.
Every time the Friday would come up, which is when I'd go eat my Mexican food, I I could never put my finger on what it was.
And granted, yes, I was avoiding talking about whatever it was that I couldn't put my finger on.
But I thought that maybe, okay, so maybe it's...
Well, and let me not be a steamroller.
I mean, this is my sense of it, and again, I don't have a full context, and I don't know, obviously, what's been going on in your life outside of this, except for some other small details.
Not so small sometimes, but...
I don't want to make too big a deal out of this.
Certainly, if you feel that it wasn't a big enough issue to bring up with your therapist, if it wasn't anything that was troublesome to you to the point where it came up over 10 months at all in group or with your therapist or with any reason to have a conversation about anyone at FDR or me or any other friends, then Maybe you're right.
Maybe it wasn't a big issue at all, right?
In which case, then I'm sort of making a mountain out of a molehill, if that makes sense.
No, I think in hindsight...
No, I do think it's a big issue because I was – this is more than I thought I would – I got more than I bargained for by bringing this up, because...
See, now, here again, I've got to just keep interrupting you, right?
Come on. I mean, how long have you listened to this show?
Two years? Yeah.
And are you genuinely saying to me that...
That you got more than you bargained for when you brought up this issue with me, given what I know about your history?
That I might not pull out certain principles that you're not conscious of here?
No, I'm not saying that I didn't expect to learn something totally new.
But what I am saying is that my original...
Analysis of it, I mean, in therapy over the past month and with other people on the board, was that I was participating in enabling this kind of corruption with him as far as the comp stuff was going.
But I didn't see it as dragging a guy that was attracted to me alongside.
Okay, and let me just, again, I don't want to make more out of this than there is, right?
So I'll just ask a simple question, and then we can drop it, because obviously if you're talking about it with your therapist, that's more important.
The way that, I mean, if I were in your shoes, what I would say to myself is, okay, well, if this last year, if I have been making tremendous progress over the last year, Then I should be ready to start in on a healthy, positive relationship romantically with a woman.
That would be...
Because, I mean, it's been a while, right?
Right. And you are to be massively and immensely and biblically complimented for that, right?
For not getting re-involved with a woman as you work through this stuff, right?
Right. So, if you have, as you say, that this is a minor issue, you've been making lots of progress in other areas of your life, then you should be close to or ready or feel ready to embark upon, not perfect, because nothing's perfect, but, you know, a healthy and mature and positive relationship with a woman.
And I just, I find it hard to see that relative to what was going on with this gay guy.
But what do I know, right?
Talking to you for like 40 minutes, right?
So how do you feel relative to that goal, right?
Because the goal is for you, if I remember rightly, love, relationship, marriage, kids maybe, and that kind of stuff.
Well, I have been discussing this a lot with the therapist.
And what we sort of sorted out was that what I need to do is...
Pay attention to the skeptical side of me that I repressed and the part of me that desires and really wants to get into a relationship.
I need to also give it the attention because if I repress that, then all I end up doing is becoming highly skeptical and suspicious of everybody I get involved with, which would sort of I'm sorry, go ahead.
Let me not be annoying and interrupt.
Let me be annoying in other ways, but not through interruption.
Sorry, go ahead. Well, she said, you know, what we've figured out is that I need to pay attention to the people I meet and get involved with, collect data.
Don't throw out any good information.
Come to her, talk about what I learned about this person, sort it out.
Let her help me guide myself through the first couple of dates with people, with women at least, and any new developing friendships.
Then that would be a healthy way to go about starting relationships.
That's wonderful. I mean, I think that's great.
I'm going to try and give you something that's a bit more detailed, and this is, I think, completely dovetails with what your therapist is saying, but of course comes from a know-nothing philosopher in Canada, right?
So, again, all the caveats in the world.
But do this just as a little exercise, and I think this is useful for a lot of people, and this is certainly something that helped me in the past.
You must have some idea, in fact I'm pretty sure you do, right?
Some idea of the perfect woman for you, right?
Yes. Okay. Yeah, I did your exercise on that.
Fantastic. Okay, so let's call this perfect woman Dan.
No, I'm just kidding. Let's call this perfect woman Sue, or whatever, right?
Okay. Okay, now, when you are getting...
Let's go back to February and you start eating at this Mexican restaurant and Mr.
Comp Burrito Bar is chatting you up and this and that and the other.
This would be my suggestion, right?
And you get sort of in conversations with this fellow and you think maybe he's a...
I see where you're going.
Well, take us to the bridge, brother.
I ask myself what Sue would think of this person, if she would approve, if she's the kind of woman that's perfect and virtuous, what she would think of this guy.
Yeah, and that's one way of looking at it, and that may be even more vivid than what I was saying.
But what I was going to say is, imagine then you're on your second or third date with Sue, and you just came back from the gay bar with Mr.
Burrito Guy. And she says, hey, what did you do on the weekend?
And you say, well, this gay guy has been comping me food at this restaurant, so I went to a gay bar with him, and I asked him whether he was attracted to me, and he kept saying no, and so I'm all confused about it, and blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
What would Sue's face look like when you related this?
She would be quite concerned.
Go on. I think she would probably run away.
And this is a good shortcut, right?
There's this thing that Ayn Rand used to say.
People would say, well, what would Howard Rock do, right?
And she said it's a good shortcut to cutting through the nonsense.
To get to the core good or bad thing, right?
Which is... I call her my inner wifelet because my wife is not very large, although she looms very large in my brain.
But it's like, okay, well, what would Christina think?
What would Christina think, right?
And if she smiles, I do it.
And if she frowns, I slap myself.
And not in the way that I like, you know, with the duck fat and baby oil.
But... So this would be my suggestion, right?
When you're sort of wrestling with these kinds of questions, oh, you know, should I take another free meal from, you know, Mr.
Quesadilla Gropey fellow? Well, I'm going to have to say something to the woman of my dreams in the future, or the man of my dreams in the future.
What would she think of this, right?
And that's a much better way to go about it than what I originally thought of.
Like, I originally thought, well, if you met the guy, but then I would always get this sick feeling, like, because I sort of view you as somewhat of a father figure or authority figure.
Don't make me George Michael.
I'm right on the edge. And it gives me that sick feeling of Disapproval?
You know the way morality was taught to us originally?
It was always just very repressing and Right, like I would sort of sternly disapprove and say, you know, is your conscience worth a free burrito?
Right. Right, right.
And that's, I mean, you know, hey, I mean, I don't care about the burrito thing particularly, but, you know, I mean, I sort of think like, okay, well, if I... I hadn't met Christina, and I met Christina just now, and she said, hey, how was your November, December, right?
And I said, well, interesting you should ask.
I kind of got sort of mauled in the media because I stood up for this kid, and this is what I did, and blah, blah, blah.
I think that she would be interested.
I think she would be probably a little cautious, but I think that she would probably end up being quite excited and proud of what it is that I did, particularly the fact that Tom is doing so much better now, and blah, blah, blah, right?
So, So that sort of passes the test of the perfect woman for me, right?
And so on, you know?
So it's those kinds of things which I think can be really helpful in cutting through the complexity and getting through to the core issues around sort of good, you know, productive...
It's not like you're being evil or anything here, right?
Or even particularly corrupt.
This is not a big issue, right?
But I think that why it's important...
And it's that the principles still seem to be somewhat obscure to you.
And of course, I don't want to come across like any kind of heavy, like, oh my god, you sold your soul for a plate full of refried beans, right?
Now, don't get me wrong, refried beans can be fantastic, and certainly there have been times where my soul would have hung in the balance had that been the offer.
But, so I don't want this to come across all kinds of heavy-handed or anything like that.
This is not, the content of the issues is not particularly significant, but I think that The form in terms of not communicating it and not being conscious of not communicating it and having a lot of ambivalence without reaching out for help with that ambivalence.
That is the stuff that I think is important.
Not that you went to a gay bar and who cares, right?
That doesn't matter. And a couple of plates of food, who cares, right?
But I think that what is important is that the principles of getting help from people, of being conscious when you're avoiding stuff and so on, I think that is the important thing to get out of this, if that makes sense.
Yes, and that would break a very big pattern.
Yeah, because you then solve the problem of loneliness because you're reaching out to talk about loneliness.
You're not managing it through this kind of behavior, right?
Right. I think a lot of...
I've felt a lot of ambivalence about that because, well, my reasoning was because I feel like I'm sort of burdening people with my problems every time I come to them for help.
Granted, that's kind of mean to say about them.
No, it's not mean to say about them.
It's mean to say about yourself. This is a tip for everyone.
First of all, I can guarantee you that people are not finding this conversation a burden.
That's kind of why I haven't spoken up so much on this Sunday.
I was like, I've taken up too much of his time.
Other people are new and they need to chime in.
He doesn't get enough new people and maybe I need to work these things out on my own for once.
Nate, what is the RTR suggestion for that thought and those feelings?
To tell you that I'm feeling that I don't want...
I'm afraid that I'm taking up too much of your time.
Dear God, man, show me the respect to let me make my own decision about it.
Don't make that decision for me.
You don't have that right to decide for me whether I want to talk to you or not.
Right. Give me a voice in the interaction.
At least let me into the Miko system throw down, right?
Right. That makes sense.
It's the MMA, right?
My ecosystem attack.
Right, that's the RTR thing, right?
The RTR thing is, Steph, I have something that I want to bring up, but I'm feeling this, and I'm feeling that, and I'm feeling the other, and I don't know if it's interesting, and I feel that.
That's called honesty, right?
Coming to a conclusion called, and therefore Steph doesn't want to talk to me, is, I think, disrespectful to you fundamentally, and it doesn't give me a choice in the matter, right?
I really, really, really enjoy talking with you, Nate.
I really, really enjoy talking with you.
Right, so I'd like to have the choice, if that's alright, with you to make that decision.
That feels good.
Okay, good, good. So this was a question I've had for the past month about what to do after I've broken this relationship off after a month and started going to a different restaurant and Should I go back and talk to the owner of the restaurant and give him a couple hundred bucks and report what he and reportedly the managers have been doing for other people,
doing these comp things?
You mean should you get this guy fired?
You've already used him, right?
I don't see how getting him fired would be that helpful.
So that wouldn't be restitution then?
No, I don't think so.
I don't think so. You could mail the restaurant owner the money for the meals that you got anonymously if you felt, right?
But to involve the waiter in that, I think, is...
Means. Yeah, because the thing is, right, the waiter gets punished, but you don't.
But you were complicit in this, right?
Right. So that would be, I think, an unjust...
Right? That's saying it's 100% the waiter's fault.
Okay, I'll pay a little bit of money, but he might lose his job or whatever, right?
Get no reference and maybe his life goes kind of down the tubes in a ways, right?
Right. But I think that...
Yeah, so I mean, again, there's no particular right answer to this, right?
I mean, I don't think, and this is not a big UPB moral certainty situation because there's lots of gray in here as well, right?
But the other thing, too, is that if you spent more money there than you got in comps, then the restaurant owner is still ahead, right?
Yeah, that's what I also don't know is whether he's further ahead because I was a complete regular for a long time.
Yeah, so I mean obviously he's gotten some benefit from having you as a repeat customer and who knows, right?
I mean I know that restaurants make a lot of money per meal, which is not to say that they're all printing money or anything, so I don't know.
But for sure, I would not make a decision about what to do about this for quite some time because what you need to do is you need to work through the feelings.
And this is an important issue to work through, not because anything egregious or nasty or whatever happened, but just because there are some principles here that I think you still need to come over.
Because you're still not committed to RTR, right?
Because you're still giving yourself the out of just not saying stuff, right?
Yeah, it's very hard to put into practice.
Well, it's actually impossible to put into practice if you're not committed to it, right?
It's like saying, you know, it's really hard to get healthy if I'm committed to not going to the gym and not eating well.
It's like, well, yeah, right?
But you give yourself an excuse, right?
Well, I've sort of...
I look for opportunities where I can, but I don't see them all, and I don't...
It's not a commitment for you.
Honesty is not a commitment.
And again, I say this with affection and with no negative prejudice, but just empirically, right?
But I want it to be.
I don't understand why...
You want it to be?
I'm not sure what that means. You want to want it?
I've been trying so hard.
I'm ready. I'm warmed up.
I'm ready to roll. If I'm looking for every single opportunity where I can be courageous, where I can be honest in the moment, and I'm not catching them all...
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Oh, Nate, you are such an excellent wriggler.
So now we've gone for 10 months to every single opportunity, right?
That's a bit of a false dichotomy, right?
Well, I missed one big one for sure.
You mean 10 months worth?
That's pretty big. Because, you know, I do this full-time now, right?
Yes. Okay, so I'm sort of working FDR 8 to 12 hours a day.
We got, say, 280 to 300 days, right?
We're, you know, minus, say, 50% for whatever reason.
I'm working on books or on other calls or whatever.
So we've got maybe 100, 150 days.
What's that? 12,000 hours.
So I'm not necessarily saying that all of those 12,000 hours should have been taken up with this problem, but it's somewhere between zero and 12,000, right?
But you're kind of putting up a false dichotomy.
Like, oh, so, because you did an RTR about this with me or with others or with your therapist for 10 months, right?
And then you're saying, well, so I have to do it all the time?
Well, but you've got to do it more than you've been doing if you're committed to it, right?
Right. But that's not to say that during those 12,000 hours I was not RTRing.
About other things? About other things.
Okay, well we've got a lot of people in the chat room and I'm just going to, you know, without prejudice, right, but it's hard for us to see ourselves.
Question to the people who are in the chat room.
How many are there? 24.
Those of you who've been in contact with Nate over the past 10 months, what has your experience been of core honesty, RTR, vulnerability, statement of thoughts and feelings in the moment, without jumping to conclusions?
What's it been like?
Do-do-do-do-do.
Tell you I'm sorry.
You know how love we are.
One person...
Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know we had a chicken icon.
It's recusing herself.
Someone says some defensiveness.
And I'm not trying to sort of corner you or anything.
It's just we can't often tell whether we're RTRing, right?
Because we kind of have to ask other people, right?
Is what I'm saying helpful?
Did it make sense? Was it useful?
And you hear me doing this all the time, right?
Yeah, and I've been...
Doing that. You have been asking people whether they have experienced what you have been doing as really honest and open and vulnerable and blah blah blah?
Well, after every conversation where I'm helping somebody, I asked if it's been helpful.
Well, no, but I'm not talking about you helping them.
I'm talking about RTR from you to them.
About your stuff, right?
Yeah, I don't think I have done that very much.
Everyone at FDR wants to write an essay.
I was just trying to get a summary.
Well, someone says, I can say that I think of one instance where I felt very happy for Nate's vulnerability with me, but I have noticed a lot of defensiveness in other areas.
Someone else said, I've not felt any vulnerability.
Other one says, I'm feeling myself frustrated and a little confused by Nate.
And again, this is not for a self-attack or anything like that.
It's just that without that kind of feedback, we don't know how we're coming across, right?
Someone else has a similar experience to Greg's.
Someone else has said, I haven't really noticed a lot of emotional openness.
And again, this is just if you are going to make statements, which I think is perfectly valid, to say, I have been doing X in my relationships, then it's important to know whether that has actually occurred for others, right? If that makes sense.
Yeah. Like if I say my customers are satisfied, at some point it is incumbent upon me to ask my customers whether they're satisfied, right?
Right. And the fact that you say, I have been RTRing on other issues, and other people have not really experienced that very much, means that you're not doing that quite well.
It's not working in the way that I think you think it's working, if that makes sense.
And this, again, this is not a criticism thing, right?
Just so you understand. This is not good or bad, right?
Well, I'm feeling quite frustrated because it is my perception that I have been.
Yes, but have you asked? No.
Right. So you see here, there's a little bit of an avoidance because you know how hard RTR is, right?
And so if you're RTR-ing with people and you don't ask...
If it were easy, I'd be doing it all the time.
...then that's not very helpful, right?
Right. So I... I mean, to use a crude metaphor, right?
I mean, if you have a girlfriend... You know, and it takes, I don't know, you know, 16 sets of Benoit balls and some mechanical device like a piston to bring her to orgasm and it's really tough and it takes a long time and you've got to, I don't know, spill chicken entrails and pray to Zeus, then at some point it actually is worthwhile asking if she actually had an orgasm, right?
Other than saying, no, no, no, she's been having orgasms, right?
Because you know it's hard and, you know, at some point it's useful to ask, right?
Yeah. Right, so if you're not asking, it's because you don't think that it's working, right?
Because, you know, when we don't want feedback, it's because we know the worst, right, so to speak, right?
Or at least that we're sort of, at least in my experience, it's sort of afraid that That any effort I've been putting into it has not been enough?
Because I feel kind of overwhelmed right now.
Sure. And I totally get overwhelmed and frustrated absolutely and completely and totally.
I totally understand that.
It's like when I used to work on software and I put a feature in that I thought the customer wanted.
And the customer would say, well, I didn't want that feature.
And by the way, you didn't do this feature properly.
I'd be really frustrated. Why?
Because I hadn't asked the client whether...
They wanted that feature or not.
I just preferred to work on it because it was more fun or whatever, right?
But it's so important to remember that RTR is not a firehose.
RTR is a game of tennis, right?
RTR is honesty and curiosity, right?
Everybody wants to do the honesty in their own mind, but they don't want to do the curiosity to find out if the honesty actually worked or was perceived as or accepted as true, right?
RTR is not you to others, right?
RTR is mutuality, right?
Honesty about your own feelings and curiosity about the other person's experience of you, right?
Right. So whenever somebody says, oh yes, I was RTRing or I have been RTRing or whatever, and they don't say, and I checked with the other person and they did experience it that way and they sort of gave me some pointers here, then I just know it's not the case, right?
You can't say whether you're being really open and honest.
And I can't either, right?
I rely on Christina, I rely on listeners, I rely on others, right?
To tell me. Because I can feel that it's true, right?
But if the other person doesn't experience it as true, then that's a disconnect that's really worth exploring, right?
It's just been a lot less like tennis for me and a lot more like juggling.
Putting some of these things into practice, like a few months back, I can't remember, six months maybe, you had suggested that I begin asking people, when I tell them what my experience is, to begin asking what their experience was.
Like if I say, when you said this, I felt this, what was your experience?
And I've been getting better and better at implementing that.
And it's like throwing another ball into this juggling thing.
And it feels like juggling until it becomes second nature.
Yes, because you're looking at it like it's a technique or a skill, right?
It kind of is?
RTR is not hard.
Why does it feel so hard?
No, no, no. RTR is scary.
RTR is not hard.
RTR is like skydiving.
Is it hard to jump out of a plane?
No, it's scary. Yeah, it's bloody easy, right?
In fact, as I know when I went skydiving, you can almost do it accidentally too soon if you don't pay attention, right?
So it's actually very easy.
It's hard to be a gymnast, right?
I mean, I'm aware of that.
It's easy to jump out of a plane.
I don't mean it's easy to be an expert skydiver, but, you know, your first time when you've got a rope tied to you and the chute opens automatically.
And it's like jumping out of a plane is easy, right?
It's scarier than skydiving.
Yeah, it is scarier than skydiving. Because, you know, if I say something about how I feel, then the worst thing that could happen...
And what is the worst thing?
Is that... Oh dear, now I have to manage his feelings, and of course that's where I ask them about their experience, but I feel, you know, just like, oh no, his feelings...
When you feel like you have to manage someone else's feelings.
Huh? Wait, I missed the first part?
What does RTR, if you feel like you need to manage somebody else's feelings, what does RTR suggest?
Did I say I feel like I have to manage somebody else's feelings?
I feel like I have to manage your feelings.
I'm not saying I do, and of course I don't, but this is my strong feeling, and it occurred when you said this.
What is your experience of that?
No, no, no. I'm talking about in reverse.
Like, if I say, I felt this when you said that, then I feel like I'm putting upon them the task of having to work out this Invest their time into working out this issue, and I think the first thought that comes to my head is that I'm not worth that time.
Right, and so what does RTR suggest that you do in that situation?
What do you say? Oh dear.
To say that I feel like I want to say what I felt when you said this, but I'm not sure if it's worth your...
I feel like I'm not worth your time.
Right. And then you talk more about what you feel.
Because if you can't get that level of openness in your communication with people, you can't ever help each other or communicate with each other really about anything because everything becomes management.
And management is tough.
Managing other people is tough.
What you did with this gay guy for 10 months, that to me is hard work.
Now, I agree it's not scary because it's a kind of anxiety avoidance, right?
But that to me is a hell of a lot of hard work compared to you know Just sort of biting the bullet stepping out of the plane and being relentlessly honest about your experience and curious about other people It certainly tells me who they are and and it It brings things to a nice close.
Yeah, and you know, I tell you, this is the thing, Nate, and this is to everyone, because I know that RTR is, we totally have to go back to it, because I know it's really tough for people, because we won't just do it.
I mean, we know. It's like, I think it, I speak it, right?
I mean, not as a conclusion, but as a thought, right?
That's honesty, right?
And people, we all give ourselves lots of outs, right?
And the outs, we say, oh, it's so hard and so on, right?
But here's the thing, Nate.
And everyone. The idea that if we don't speak it, it doesn't exist in the conversation is a complete, utter, and total fantasy.
It has more power if we don't speak it than if we do.
Speaking it means that it loses its negative power.
We have this magical thinking, like if a house is burning and we don't say a house is burning, that the house is not burning.
But if we don't say the house is burning and do something about it, the house actually does burn down, right?
Right. Right, if I don't inform...
Yeah, if you don't say, well, I don't want to bring this up and I feel like I'm not worth your time and I'm feeling kind of insecure about this whole thing, how are you feeling?
We think that if we just blow past that or brush past that, that it's somehow not part of the conversation.
But it just means it takes over the conversation.
Yeah, the first thing I think of is eye-rolling, if I say something like that.
Right! Right, so then you don't say it.
So you don't say it, right?
But of course the eye-rolling is yours, right?
Not the other person's. That's just projection, right?
Because you obviously experienced eye-rolling as a kid and interest and so on, right?
Yeah. So that's just projection.
And that just lets the past win over the future and the present, right?
And it's magic thinking that if we don't voice it, it has no effect on the conversation.
It has the most profound, dominating, and frankly destructive effect on the conversation, whatever we don't speak, whatever we think but don't speak.
I'm kind of worried that after having this conversation with you that I've lost 10 months and now I'm back 10 months again.
Good. I'm sorry, but good.
I'm glad that you think that.
But that's not good.
It's not good. Of course it's not good.
Of course it's not good.
And so now the question is, do you want to lose another 10 months or not?
I'm just tired of losing time.
No, you're not tired of losing time, Nate.
Because if you were tired of losing time, you wouldn't have lost time.
When you're truly tired of losing time, you'll stop losing time.
And you'll just be honest, right?
But I didn't think I was losing time.
How do I know when I'm losing time until after I've lost time?
Well, that's an essential question.
And if you were relatively new to the conversation, I would give you a lot more latitude about that, right?
But if you were thinking about all of this stuff to do with this fellow or whatever, and you weren't talking about it with people and you weren't talking about it with your therapist, then you made the choice to avoid, right?
And if you didn't RTR with yourself, right, and say, well, that's interesting.
I'm thinking about this restaurant guy, but I'm not bringing it up with my therapist.
I wonder why.
Right?
If you don't ask that question, then you don't have the option to process it, right?
And it's not like you've lost 10 months.
I mean, as you say, you've been working, you've been in therapy, you've been working on other things, you've been journaling, you've been writing.
I mean, it's not 10 months lost, right?
It's just that fundamentally...
This kind of honesty, this kind of the RTR stuff that, you know, I've been droning on about for, I guess, a year and a half or maybe closer to two years now.
You're either going to do it or you're not, right?
There's not a lot of...
You either have this commitment, right?
You either have this commitment to be honest with yourself and therefore with others, right?
The honesty to others, of course, begins with honesty to the self, with the self, in the same way that lying to others begins with lying to the self, right?
If you don't have that commitment for honesty, if you don't set that time aside, if you don't have that commitment to honesty, then, in my opinion, time will fly by.
I mean, In our inexorable drop into the deepest grave, we can't ever slow our descent, right?
And time will fly by.
And, yeah, I mean, if you've had 10 months of only thinking you're being honest without asking people whether you're being honest and of avoiding some basic topics out of shame or anxiety management and so on, and this is with all due recognition to the amazing progress that you've made when you've given up drugs and, you know, these... Pretty substandard women that you were involved with and so on.
So this is with all due respect to the amazing progress that you've made.
The wonderful progress that you've made.
And this is more to everyone than to you, right?
But when it comes to this kind of commitment to honesty, there's not a lot of middle ground, right?
We're either going to be honest or we're not going to be honest.
We're either going to commit to that kind of Communication of our experience and curiosity about other people or not.
And whether you commit to it or you don't, time moves on anyway.
And if you find out a year from now that you missed being honest for a year and you've lost a year, That year doesn't come back, right?
And that's fine. We can look back and say, well, gee, I should have done this or that, right?
And we all have those thoughts and feelings and they're healthy.
But the question is not about the past, but about the future, right?
Which is, Nate, do you want to go into 2010 having the same conversation and 2012 and 2015 and 2030 having the same conversation, right?
And then when it's 2031 and you're Too old to have a family, right?
Do you then want to say, now I commit to this kind of honesty?
I still feel frustrated.
Sure. And frustration, I guarantee you, is a Simon the Boxer for you, right?
You are really into being frustrated.
And as a guy who has a very similar kind of history and similar kinds of problems in this area, I can completely and totally empathize, right?
I'm frustrated with how do I know when I'm being as honest as possible?
What if I'm not being honest?
Don't give me these false dichotomies.
As honest as possible.
Okay, because you weren't even being, like, in this, right, you were avoiding this with everyone, right?
This wasn't like, oh my god, I got to 99% honesty, but what if it's 99.5% honesty, right?
You were actually avoiding, right?
You were like minus honesty in this area, right?
And this is also around trusting others, right?
If you feel that you don't know whether you're being honest with someone, what can you do?
Yeah. Does this strike you as honest?
Do you feel...
Because trust, everybody's a genius and everyone's a philosopher.
Everyone is a genius and everyone is a philosopher.
Everyone knows everything. Now, that doesn't mean they will be honest with you about everything, for sure.
I mean, then maybe not, right? But you will know if they're not being honest with you.
Trust yourself. Trust the instincts of others.
Get feedback.
Lean on each other.
And don't withdraw when a difficult or painful topic comes up, but communicate clearly about how scary it is.
No one will ever be bored by your authentic experience.
Right? Because we say, oh, I don't want to share this thought or this feeling because it's not interesting to people, and then we avoid and we distance ourselves, and then guess what?
We aren't interesting to people.
It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
But nobody will ever be bored by your genuine and honest and heartfelt experience.
And it is the easiest thing in the world to talk about, except for the fear.
Except for the fear.
Right. Except for the terrifying...
Right. And what we do...
Overwhelming fear.
Absolutely. I completely agree with you.
The fear can feel debilitating.
And so, what do we do?
I feel debilitated by fear.
I want to be honest, and I peed myself for like the third time in 10 minutes.
Actually, that's just me talking.
I'm just being honest with you.
But we just are honest about our fear.
And if the fear is overwhelming and we can't be honest in that moment, what do we say?
Fear is overwhelming and I can't be honest in the moment.
Right. So let me try and work through this and I will get back to you.
you, but I'm not going to insult either of our integrity by pretending to have a conversation when I'm not being honest.
Right.
Heavy.
Heavy.
Thank you.
And we practice here.
For our personal relationships, right?
Yeah, it's just not very easy.
I mean, certainly in therapy there's that, but I'm not on the...
The people here are on a different page than my therapist.
There's frustration with being online and not being able to see the person or...
Or hear them sometimes?
So if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that the greatest and freest communications technology that the world has ever seen is an impediment to relationships.
The fact that you and I can talk like this and tens of thousands of people can listen for free.
He is a barrier to truth and honesty and authenticity and openness.
Because there's no alternative, right?
There's no alternative called we all go live in an ashram, right?
So the conversation that you and I are having in FDR and Skype and IMing and voice over IP and all this kind of stuff, this has made these conversations possible.
I don't think it can be called an impediment.
Because it would be impossible otherwise, right?
It's like saying, well, I'm dying of thirst in the desert and the bottle of water I find is not the brand I like and therefore that's a problem.
Compared to what, right?
Online relationships are imperfect compared to what?
Compared to us all living in an ashram?
Well, that's not going to happen, right? And even if it did happen, which it's not, it would still be because of these conversations, which have occurred online, right?
Right. What's an ashram?
An ashram is like a bunch of teepees, freaky guru guys set up in India for misguided people who think that Eastern philosophy is, well, philosophy.
Right. Right.
It is an amazing opportunity that you have to communicate with people, honestly, through free technology that did not exist until a couple of years ago, right?
Well, if I could ask everyone this, not just you, but why aren't we having...
I mean, of course you're busy with the baby, but just everybody.
Why aren't we having more...
More conversations. Well, instead of asking people that, and certainly you can, my suggestion would be that in the free market of people's time, if you put forward enough honesty and authenticity, those conversations will start to happen, right?
Right, right. Right, I mean, if you've been sort of not present and not honest, and this is an extreme way of putting it, but if you've been less than present and less than...
Honest for 10 months and then say well why aren't we having more conversations?
Well again, this would be for you at least somewhat of what you're doing, right?
Right, I'm putting the burden on everyone else.
What you want to do is be engaging and open and honest and helpful enough a person that those conversations happen, right?
In the same way that Sundays at 4 p.m.
happen, right?
Yeah.
And make, you know, my suggestion is make the commitment now for this kind of honesty, because another year can go by, and another year can go by, and another year can go by.
And you're still fussing around the edges of commitment, right?
Which puts you in the null zone, right?
Because what happens is you neither end up having fabulous gay sex nor with a quality woman to settle down with, right?
This puts you in the null zone, right?
And this is the cause, not the consequence, of your loneliness, right?
Yeah, I'm causing it.
Yeah.
Thanks.
I can hopefully take another leap forward from here.
That's why you wanted to talk to me, right?
Because you feel disconnected and you were feeling like you weren't making progress at least as far as this stuff goes Exactly was I helpful?
I mean, annoying, of course.
You were very helpful.
And I'm always trying to make sure that what I say does not put people into any kind of shame spiral or self-attack.
Was I putting in the right amount of honest and positive feedback about my respect for what it is that you've done?
Yes, I think so.
Because I do feel like I've done a lot.
And my tendency is to go into a shame spiral if...
And I guess, of course, the solution to that from now on is to ask, you know, am I being honest enough?
I'm not enough, but...
Yeah, or, you know, what is your experience, right?
Of... And what was your experience of this conversation from my side?
Or I guess, what was your experience of this conversation?
It was scary, but helpful.
Very helpful and scary and I feel just sort of overwhelmed at the moment.
But it's not because you weren't helpful.
And I hope, I hope, I hope that you get that.
I say this because I want you to get what you want.
I want you to have the love and the security that you want in your life, right?
The family, the kids, if you want them, the love of your life.
I want to work very hard, if at all possible, to create the conditions for you to meet and keep the love of your life and to be the love of someone else's life.
That would be wonderful.
Because this is something that's hard for people to grasp.
I don't mean for you or whatever, right?
Yeah. I know that people have lots of, they have these questions, you know, why does Steph do this?
Why did he, you know, and people, of course, you know, they come up with all this nonsense, right?
Like, he wants power over people, right?
Because nothing spells power like podcaster, right?
Or, he's doing it for the money, you know, and that kind of stuff, right?
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the donations, and if you haven't donated in a while, please do, not you, but others, right?
But, The answer that is true for me, which is that I really, really, really want to share some of the paths to happiness that have really worked for me, for myself, for Christina, for other people, that I really want to help people to achieve happiness.
Because once you have achieved a real happiness in your life that is sustainable, that is warm, that is positive, that is joyful, to me, it would be Cold and cruel and almost malicious to not do everything you could to try and bring that to as many people as possible.
And the idea that I want people to be happy, that I really do care about you, Nate, and other people on the call, I really care about your happiness, is something that people...
Really can't, they can't, it's got to be a cult, it's got to be power, it's got to be money, it's got to be, you know, whatever, right?
It can't be that Steph and his wife really want to share the happiness that we worked hard to achieve and have achieved and maintain that I want you now to be happy.
I want other people on this call and whoever's listening to this I want you to be happy because life is short and what a beautiful thing it is to be happy.
I can't say if this makes you feel even better.
Like I was telling you in the chat the other day, I feel just overall An extraordinarily extensive, just massive amount happier than I've ever been in my entire life.
I never imagined this degree of consistent happiness.
Just to the degree to where I feel relaxed, so relaxed that all the neck tension that I've had isn't a problem anymore.
There's just so much more of an internal world to myself, and I'm able to communicate better with other people to what degree, given I could definitely be a whole lot more honest, but even then, to the degree that I am happier is just...
It's gigantic. That just completely thrills and moves me beyond words, Nate.
That's the payoff.
That is why we do this work.
That is why we work so hard.
That is why we confront ourselves.
That is why we confront our dark sides.
That is why we pursue self-knowledge.
That is why we go into therapy.
That is why we go through this radioactive fear state of real honesty.
Because on the other side is simplicity and clarity and self-regard and love.
And, of course, that's what sustains me in this highly challenging conversation, right?
I think the biggest, deepest, meanest, toughest, roughest, and most affectionate philosophy conversation the world's ever had, that's what sustains me, is that simple, irrefutable, and irrevocable fact that reason equals virtue equals happiness, and that it works.
It's worked for me. It's worked for Christina.
It'll work for Isabella until she sues us for making her socially completely ostracized for the rest of time.
Or until she Googles my name in the word cult.
But it works.
It works. Self-knowledge, wisdom, integrity, virtue, courage, honesty, openness, vulnerability.
They just work.
And we have lots of theories to why and we have lots of practical examples as to how and lots of testimonials as to its achievement.
And I want that for people.
I want so much for people to experience joy in their lives.
Because life has no meaning.
And therefore, since it has no meaning, we're not going to heaven.
Dying for your country will not get you 22 virgins because there is no meaning to life.
The only goal that we can have is virtuous and sustainable happiness.
And that's What I want for the world.
That's what I want for Isabella.
That's the world that I want Isabella to grow up in, is a world of greater virtue and integrity and happiness and honesty.
Yeah, I grew up thinking that I can only be happy when I die.
Right. Which is really a sad way to look at the way Christianity is, but...
I mean, that is the truth about Growing up in a religious family.
Yes, it is the truth.
But now I can have it in real life.
I can have it in reality.
And it's not just a fantasy thing.
It's not like Dennis Leary proclaims to be the short five minute bursts of an orgasm or a cigarette.
Right. I wrote a poem and I can't remember it too well because I wrote this poem when I was like 20 or 22.
And it was about a Muslim woman who was on her deathbed.
And it was something like, and as she slipped into the abyss, she saw no heavenly arms reaching for her, no congregations of past relatives surrounded her to welcome her.
She slipped into a dead void, and her last thought was the mere regret of coldly discharged atoms.
What a terrible thing it would be to live your life for death and at the end realize that there was no paradise and you had lost it all for the expectation of something that was never coming.
That you had lived your life lashed to an abandoned train station staring down moss-strewn tracks in the expectation of a train that did not exist and would never come.
And that is the true tragedy of the religious mindset and the statist mindset, the irrational, the mystical mindset. you said.
That once you clear away that cobwebs and that rubble of the life of dreamy beauty that is to come, and recognize that life and its joys are a field you have to clear with the sweat of your brow.
That no angels will come down to pillow your way into the future of bliss.
That your happiness is a stony ground that you have to turn and plant and sow and reap yourself.
And then we can stop dreaming of the salvation after death or with communion or union with the empty herd.
but it can be a labor of our own shiny sweat to build our own happiness as a house that we have to build if we want to live there.
Wow.
And that's why time is important.
Time is the essence of this, that the days that we lose in distraction and a lack of dedication, not to principles, but fundamentally to our own happiness, they're not getting tacked on at the end, right?
No. And that's why I don't want you to...
It's not like you lost 10 months, but I just...
I don't want you to be in this situation in September or October.
Because the commitment is not to RTR. The commitment is to joy.
The commitment is to happiness.
Right, and if I spend another ten months in limbo with some problem that I can't resolve through honesty or vulnerability, even if it's just with that person that I'm in limbo about,
like, if I had just gone and expressed My honest and vulnerable feelings or confusion to this guy, it might have, you know, reacted in some kind of hostility that ended what otherwise dragged on for 10 months.
Yes, that's true.
And I'll give you something that's hopefully even more of an incentive, and we can just end with this if you like.
Let's say that, for whatever reason, You decide or don't decide or whatever, but you end up spending another 10 months in this kind of limbo, right?
And it's not until October that you shake yourself out of it, right?
Well, what if you actually meet the love of your life in March?
Or would have?
That would suck.
Well, you would have missed it, right?
Thank you.
Like, love is not something that once we're together, once we're happy, once we're authentic, once we're honest, once we're masters of our own souls, love doesn't just pop someone up like a geyser, right?
There is no universal spirit that is checking our progress and herding the love of our lives towards us, who will then meet us when we are ready.
That's not how life works, right?
That's That's kind of the reverse of what I was thinking.
So Yeah, because what we think is, well, I've got all the time in the world to be ready for the love of my life, because when I am ready, she will show up.
But that's not how it works, right?
That's like saying, when I'm ready to win the lottery, I'll buy a lottery ticket.
I don't advocate the lottery, but just as a metaphor, right?
What if the one that you bought in March was the winning one, but you just didn't play?
So what if tomorrow you meet the woman who could be the love of your life?
Are you ready? Have you been training?
We don't have an Olympics that we know are three years away, or two years, or four years, or one year.
We don't know. When we're going to be called to the stand to testify in the court of love.
We don't know when we're going to have to run the greatest race towards the deepest love.
Right? So got to train hard.
Got to train. Got to train to be ready for when that comes.
Because you can't start training when it shows up, because then it's too late.
Right.
It's like saying, well, I have to run the Boston Marathon, so I'll start training a couple of days beforehand.
Right.
You've got to be ready if you want it.
Thank you.
You've got to be in peak condition to be able to take advantage of it when love comes for you.
Because you don't know when it's coming.
Right?
And that's the risk that we take when we're not committed to honesty and openness and vulnerability, but we're not practicing those skills and getting ready for love.
Thank you.
That's the risk we take.
That the love of our life comes along and we're not ready.
Christina didn't show up when I was ready, but thank God I was ready when she did.
It could be tomorrow, it could be next week, It could be next month that you run across that woman or you see her in a bus or you talk to her in front of a movie theater.
Are you going to be ready?
Stop fucking around and get ready.
Stop fucking around with bartenders who are gay and get ready for the one you want.
Because you don't have the rest of your life to spend inconsequential vanity propping foolish exercises like this, right?
Right.
Because you don't know when you're going to trip over that woman or she's going to trip over you or that man.
So be ready. Be proud.
Be honest. Be open. Have practiced your skills.
Don't eat three pizzas and wander into the Boston Marathon.
You just get mowed down, right?
It's not pretty.
Right.
Right.
That's the urgency.
That's why I say, don't put it off.
Because there won't be time to practice when love comes to town.
You've got to be ready.
You've got to be ready.
Yeah, I think I'll be stepping up my therapy.
Yeah, but stepping up your therapy, that's great, but my suggestion would be to just step up your commitments.
Stepping up your therapy is saying that I need to spend more money and more time with someone else who's going to, right?
You know enough by now to step up your commitments to just be honest and open and vulnerable and keep asking for feedback.
That much you know, right?
Right. And whoever I interact with.
Yeah, I mean, maybe not the grocery store clerk, but you know what I mean, right?
Wherever the relationships are meaningful for you.
Because if you have, the love of your life comes into your life and you say, well, I have this issue, but I don't want to bring it up with her because I don't feel like I'm worth anything because of this, because it'll just fall apart in your hands, right?
Right. And you'll know that it's falling apart in your hands, and it'll be too late to develop the habits of honesty, right?
And that will torture you, not just now, but for the rest of your life.
I'm not trying to put a curse on you, you understand, right?
But this is the stakes we're playing with, right?
Scary.
Love is the involuntary response to virtue in my formulation.
Honesty is the first virtue, so if you want someone to love you, you've got to be honest.
You've got to practice those virtues called honesty, which we're all born with.
Isabella is far more honest than anyone I'll ever meet, including me.
Right? We're all born with that honesty.
But unfortunately for all too many of us, it's pounded and brutalized out of us, but we've got to regain that.
So that we can, when the potential love of our life comes along, that she's actually going to love us.
Because we're honest and virtuous.
Love it.
This has been amazing.
Train four.
I'm sorry.
Sorry? I was just going to say, this has been an amazing call.
I want to take up all your time. No, that's great.
And this is why, you know, I'm bugged that you didn't give me the opportunity to talk to you this year.
This last year. Because, yeah, we have great calls, right?
And the stuff that you bring up is hugely useful to others.
Well, I will definitely make a commitment to doing that more then.
And then asking you if you enjoyed it.
Okay, well, listen, thanks, Nate.
I really do appreciate that. And just to remind you that these are all tweaks on something that you've been doing a magnificent job on.
And, you know, getting the bronze doesn't mean that it's the gold minus two, right?
right it's also you know important to be how uh recognize the progress and the uh the positivity that you've brought to what it is that you're doing and the amazing bullets of course that you've dodged as well right uh based on your commitment to all this kind of stuff so just that's the last thing i wanted to leave you with right that this is uh going from uh you know bronze to silver that's not the same as going from loser to winner right right all right yeah i had no medals before right
Alright, well thanks everybody for a great call and thanks again to our two callers and I really do appreciate the honesty and openness of these kinds of conversations.
It's just fantastic. So have a wonderful, wonderful week everyone.
Remember if you haven't donated for a while, January is always a bit of a A scurvy style month just because of the post-Christmas brokenness.
But if you don't actually have a massive amount of post-Christmas brokenness, a few bucks would certainly not go amiss.
So thank you everyone again so much.
Have yourselves a wonderful week.
And thank you everybody so much for making this such a wonderful show and a wonderful environment to be a part of.
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